D2002/8, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 1910 (21 May 2003)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 2559

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WILLIAMS

D2002/8

APPLICATION UNDER SECTION 204(1) OF
THE ACT BY THE COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC
SECTOR UNION FOR CONSENT TO ALTER
ORGANISATION'S ELIGIBILITY RULES
RE COMMONWEALTH SERVICES

MELBOURNE

10.34 AM, WEDNESDAY, 7 MAY 2003

Continued from 29.11.02

PN363

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do we have any changes in appearances in this matter?

PN364

MR J. COONEY: I appear on behalf of the AFPA.

PN365

MR M. BUTLER: I am not sure who appeared for us on the last occasion, but I appear on behalf of the Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers Australia.

PN366

MR I. DOUGLAS QC: I appear only for EDS this morning, although ACM and Jobs Australia are represented, I think, by Deakins.

PN367

MR J. NUCIFORA: Your Honour, I appear for the Australian Services Union, in place of, I believe it was Mr Barry O'Brien, on behalf of the ASU.

PN368

MR R. BUNTING: I appear on behalf of the objector, David Malcolm Patton of IBM GSA. I think Mr Carl Blake appeared on the last occasion.

PN369

MR D. SWEET: I appear on behalf of the Managers and Professionals Association. I am not sure who appeared for us on the last occasion.

PN370

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Butler, did you indicate that you were for APESMA on this occasion?

PN371

MR BUTLER: Yes, your Honour.

PN372

MR SWEET: Different organisations, your Honour.

PN373

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you have got me there, Mr Sweet. They have got them both listed as APESMA. Who are you appearing for?

PN374

MR SWEET: The Managers and Professionals Association.

PN375

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: For MPA?

PN376

MR SWEET: Yes.

PN377

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. And are you just appearing for APESMA then, Mr Butler?

PN378

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN379

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you.

PN380

MS S. CAYLOCK: I am appearing on this occasion for ACM and Jobs Australia, in place of Mr Douglas.

PN381

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Yes, Ms Cooper, what is the position with the matter?

PN382

MS COOPER: Thank you, your Honour. At the last hearing we reported we had in principle agreement with the NUW, the TWU and the AMWU. If I can now hand up a copy of the settlement that was reached with the AMWU, if that could be marked.

EXHIBIT #CPSU6 COPY AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUW, TWU AND AMWU

PN383

MS COOPER: The other agreements with the TWU and the NUW, they have been endorsed by the internal executive processes of both those unions, but unfortunately we are still awaiting the CPSUs and MC endorsement, but at the next listing of this matter we should be able to hand up executed copies of those agreements. We don't anticipate any problems at all with that process.

PN384

In relation to ACL, both parties have clarified matters, and ACL has advised us of its intention to withdraw its objection. They indicated that to us in correspondence of 17 March, a copy of which apparently went to the Commission. Does the Commission have a copy?

PN385

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I believe I have seen that, if you just wait a moment. Yes, I have a copy of that. Do you wish to have it marked?

PN386

MS COOPER: Yes, we might have it marked, if that is okay.

EXHIBIT #CPSU7 COPY LETTER FROM ACL TO CPSU, DATED 17/03/2003

PN387

MS COOPER: Regarding the other objectors, there has been significant progress in discussions with the LHWU. Our latest correspondence to the LHWU went on 24 April, with our advised settlement proposal, and we are currently awaiting a response from them to that latest proposal. We have also had further discussions and meetings with the representatives of the AFP and the Police Federation, the latest meeting being on 1 May. We have agreed that further discussions will be necessary to move this along, but we anticipate a resolution is still possible.

PN388

Meetings with APESMA and on behalf of MPA, as I understand it, have also taken place, the latest on 5 May. A draft settlement had been submitted to them, but again both parties agree that that settlement requires some further modification, and there will be further meetings between us to resolve the issues still unresolved. We have met with the CPSU, and discussions are continuing in light of the recent gazettal of their - - -

PN389

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, you have met with who?

PN390

MS COOPER: The CEPU.

PN391

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, I thought you said CPSU.

PN392

MS COOPER: Did I say CPSU? Sorry, your Honour.

PN393

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I know there are a lot of objectors, but you don't need to meet with yourself.

PN394

MS COOPER: Yes. Well, we have met with the CEPU, and discussions are continuing in light of the recent gazettal of their rule change application, which we anticipate might on impact on the matter of settlement of the CPSU - or the CEPUs objection to this application. Discussions continue with the ASU. As I understand it, a draft settlement is about to be submitted, and we anticipate further negotiation of that settlement will be necessary.

PN395

In relation to the employer objectors, we continue to discuss and exchange proposals with the ACM. There are outstanding issues that are still not resolved, but further discussion may, in fact, resolve those issues. There have been no further discussions with IBM GSA or EDS. We are currently awaiting a decision of the Full Bench of the Commission in relation to logs previously served by the CPSU on those companies. The outcomes of those appeals might inform both ourselves and the objectors as to our existing coverage, and thus might have an impact on the settlements that might be achieved or might not be able to be achieved in relation to those objectors.

PN396

In relation to job network, NESA are objectors, and the people they represent. As I think I might have already advised your Honour, we are approaching this aspect of the application by focusing on settlement with the relevant union before attempting to settle with these employers. That would be the ASU. So we have not had any further discussions with these objectors at this stage. I think that covers all the objectors, those that we haven't already achieved settlement with.

PN397

So in conclusion, therefore the CPSU believes that there are still significant prospects of settlement with the remaining union objectors at least, and would at this stage seek that the matter not be programmed today, but be adjourned for approximately another two months, to be programmed at that stage, if that is acceptable to your Honour, of course. If the Commission pleases.

PN398

THE COMMISSIONER: Does any one of the objectors wish to comment? Mr Butler?

PN399

MR BUTLER: Your Honour, APESMA supports an adjournment along the lines sought by the CPSU. We did meet last Monday, 5 May. This was the third meeting we have had with the CPSU, and I think we have just, you know, commenced a process of seriously trying to work through the issues to see if a settlement can be reached, and it will take some time to be able to do that. The CPSU have provided us with a draft document that we are considering, and we expect to get a further document from them also, so the process will take time. But we will certainly use our best endeavours to try and reach a settlement eventually.

PN400

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Nucifora?

PN401

MR NUCIFORA: Thank you, your Honour. Concur with the submissions put by Ms Cooper in relation to discussions that we had most recently in the last few weeks. We were awaiting a response on a draft document from the CPSU, and we put it no higher than that. We have sought to understand all of the issues that are raised by such an application by the CPSU in principle, but we don't want to overstate at this stage that there is an agreed settlement position, but we are happy to certainly have further discussions.

PN402

Given that it is most likely that it is the ASUs existing area of coverage in the private sector that is most affected by such an application, we would envisage that there is, for the next two months, they would be required at least for further meaningful discussions between the two unions, if your Honour pleases.

PN403

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Nicolaides?

PN404

MR NICOLAIDES: Yes, thank you, your Honour. I will just comment briefly on the memorandum that was tabled, or handed up this morning. Although it may not be clear on the face of it, the AMWUs objection in this matter interacts with the CPSU objection in D number 2002/10. That latter matter is an application by the AMWU to alter its eligibility rules, an application to which the CPSU has objected.

PN405

The memorandum reached between the CPSU and the AMWU which has been tendered this morning, was reached on the clear understanding that the AMWU would seek to amend its rules change application. A draft reflecting that amendment was tendered to you in proceedings in D number 2002/10 on 18 December last. It will be further addressed when that matter is next before you on Friday, 6 June. None of that is to say that anything but the AMWU objection in this matter has now been disposed of.

PN406

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Nicolaides. No one have any further comment? Do you wish to add anything further, Ms Cooper, at this stage?

PN407

MS COOPER: No, thank you, your Honour.

PN408

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Would 15 July be satisfactory? If there is no objection to that, then I do consider that the applicant should be given a further opportunity to see if they can achieve some settlements with the objectors, otherwise objectors and the applicant could be put to substantial cost both in the sense of time and money in relation to the furthering of this matter. It will therefore be adjourned until 10.30 on 15 July 2003 in Melbourne for further report and possible programming. The Commission itself is adjourned.

ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 15 JULY 2003 [10.45am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #CPSU6 COPY AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUW, TWU AND AMWU PN383
EXHIBIT #CPSU7 COPY LETTER FROM ACL TO CPSU, DATED 17/03/2003 PN387