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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 7, ANZ House 13 Grenfell St ADELAIDE SA 5000
Tel:(08)8211 9077 Fax:(08)8231 6194
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT O'CALLAGHAN
C2003/1766
C2003/1765
APPLICATION TO STOP OR PREVENT
INDUSTRIAL ACTION
Application under section 127(2) by Radio
Rentals Limited for an order to stop or
prevent industrial action by the Australian
Municipal, Administrative, Clerical and
Services Union
RADIO RENTALS LIMITED
and
AUSTRALIAN MUNICIPAL, ADMINISTRATIVE,
CLERICAL AND SERVICES UNION
Application under section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of dispute re certification
of agreement
ADELAIDE
12.35 PM, MONDAY, 12 MAY 2003
Continued from 9.5.03
PN70
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good afternoon, I should advise the parties that I have received email advice from Ms Donaghy to the effect that the union is not going to be arguing for a determination of the 127 application prior to the section 170LW application. Mr Manuel, have you been advised of that position?
PN71
MR MANUEL: Yes, thank you, your Honour.
PN72
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes?
PN73
MR MANUEL: Your Honour, you have before you today two applications. An application for private arbitration under the disputes settlement procedure and also an application under section 127 for an order that industrial action cease. It is our position that regardless of which matter you look at the answer remains the same and that is this, that Radio Rentals is entitled to change the hours of work of its credit acceptance clerks. That the certified agreement provides specific provision for that ability, but in addition the certified agreement in terms of its purposes and objectives clearly sets out that flexibility and efficiency are critical issues to Radio Rentals ongoing future viability.
PN74
What we have here is that Radio Rentals in about February 2003 introduced some, or proposed to introduce some new rosters. Those rosters involved the need to work later in the day and the reason for this apart from flexibility is that Radio Rentals has been moving interstate with its operations in terms of the in-rent product and the in-rent product as you may recall is a financing product to enable members of the public to purchase - sorry, I withdraw that, to obtain access to electrical equipment that is sold by not just Radio Rentals but also other stores who are affiliated for this purpose without actually having to buy them and Radio Rentals, in effect, acts as a finance company for that purpose.
PN75
Because of their significant clients are in the north-west of Western Australia as well as in the eastern states, there is just from the very geography of the transaction, a time difference and a significant time difference. From Radio Rentals point of view, it can't have the situation whereby it is required to turn customers away or not deal with them in the manner that it wishes to deal with them because of the time difference. Now, there can be all sorts of debates about whether that is a good business decision or not, but with the greatest of respect, it is for Radio Rentals to make the business decisions as to how the business will run.
PN76
They will absorb the punishment if they are wrong and they will accept a kudos if they are right. It is not for people at the end of the day, once consultation has been dealt with to try and enforce their demands over the matters that are contained in the certified agreement. I mean, in essence, your Honour, what this case is about is this. Radio Rentals did a deal with its employees including its credit acceptance clerks. That deal included pay increases, but it also included greater flexibility for Radio Rentals and in particular in respect of hours of work. Radio Rentals has kept its side of the bargain and now what it is asking for is the credit acceptance clerks to keep their side of the bargain.
PN77
Now, Radio Rentals has consulted on this matter, it has held discussions with the ASU, it has held discussions with the employees. It has made a number of concessions in the original proposal or what- or the original rosters that were forward. It was intended that there would be regular Sunday work. Now, Radio Rentals, despite having the right to do that, has moved back from that in an attempt to accommodate concerns of the individuals and has instead gone to use its outsourcing facility.
PN78
Now, the question might well be raised and has been raised, as I understand, well, why don't you use the outsourcing facility more widely and therefore by doing so, remove the need to have this dispute about the rosters. Well, there are two reasons, firstly, there is the cost of doing so, there is also the control, although I have no doubt Radio Rentals are satisfied with their outsourcing service. It is always harder to maintain control over outsourced work and usually that is the argument that has been put to a company as to why it shouldn't outsource, not as to why it should outsource.
PN79
The other issue is, that because of a combination of circumstances, if these rosters are not introduced and instead Radio Rentals goes to outsource the extra hours, which is not its commercially preferred option, there will be two or three credit acceptance clerk positions that will be redundant. Now, Radio Rentals is trying to avoid that as a consequence and we would have assumed that would be something that both the union and the employees would like to avoid as well.
PN80
What we have here is a situation where Radio Rentals is now being delayed by nearly three months, in implementing a change to a roster, that it is completely entitled to do, under an agreement that was agreed between the union and it and between the union and its members. All Radio Rentals is asking at the end of the day, is that the employees keep their end of the bargain. Radio Rentals is prepared and has had regard to individual circumstances. It has made a number of concessions, but at the end of the day, its needs this roster change. Not only does it need it, it is entitled to it under the certified agreement.
PN81
We would say, by way of overview, that it would be a very unusual circumstance, assuming there is any jurisdiction at all to do this. It would be a very unusual circumstance for the Commission to override management prerogative to exercise a right under a certified agreement, and we would say that there would have to be absolutely extraordinary circumstances for the Commission to even contemplate the course of action and in this case there are not.
PN82
Your Honour, you asked Ms Donaghy and myself to try and attempt to agree some facts. Really there has been quite a bit of progress made, but we have just run out of time to do it effectively. It has been agreed between Ms Donaghy and I, subject obviously to your views, that despite the progress we had made, it might easier if we call Mr Robertson, tender the statement via him and then for Ms Donaghy to test some of the areas of disagreement that remain by cross-examination and my apologies that we weren't able to achieve more, but basically to be blunt, we just ran out of time.
PN83
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I'm happy for that to proceed, but perhaps before we do, you might help me out on one other matter, Mr Manuel, and that goes to the clarification of Radio Rentals position with respect to the section 170LW application. On the occasion when this matter was before me last week, you seemed to imply that the application may be under a cloud in terms of the jurisdiction of the Commission to determine the matter?
PN84
MR MANUEL: That remains our position, your Honour, but we would be content if the Commission is content to have the - because the matters are so cohesive in terms of the factual situation, even if you were to find up front there was no jurisdiction for section 170LW matter, the dispute resolution matter, you would still have to hear the evidence of section 127. I would therefore respectfully suggest that we leave the evidence - certainly our evidence won't be any different between the two applications, and then we will expand our views to you.
PN85
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thank you.
PN86
PN87
MR MANUEL: Mr Robertson, I understand that your current position is that of Finance Product Manager, is that correct?---That is.
PN88
And you are employed by Radio Rentals Limited?---Yes.
PN89
You have prepared a statement for these proceedings?---Yes.
PN90
In front of you you have a statement, could you satisfy yourself that that is the statement you have prepared?---Yes, that is the one.
PN91
And is true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?---Yes.
PN92
And is the evidence you would give in this matter?---Yes.
PN93
PN94
MR MANUEL: And I have no further questions, thank you.
PN95
PN96
MS DONAGHY: Yes, Mr Robertson, I do just have some questions relating to the statement that I think either unclear or we need additional information.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN97
MR MANUEL: Sorry, I have got to interrupt my learned and I apologise profusely. I should have asked for an order for witnesses or at least consideration of the topic. I'm not aware what witnesses my learned friend is proposing to call. But I'm not aware whether they are like to be controversial or not, if they are then I would like them excluded for the evidence of Mr Robertson.
PN98
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Donaghy?
PN99
MS DONAGHY: Yes, yes, Commissioner. As we did advise Mr Ebert, last week, we will be calling four witnesses, all are credit acceptance clerks and they are Sheryl Teigesser, Helen Clarke, Lajos Teleki and Michelle O'Loughlin. The evidence that Ms Teigesser will be giving will be - will go to the process that has led up to this dispute, her understandings of what situations occurred, their hours of work, reasons that they have for why the direction to work the extended hours is unreasonable in her circumstances.
PN100
For Helen Clarke and Michelle O'Loughlin, mostly the evidence that we will be drawing from them relates to the hours of work they worked prior to Ring and Rent being incorporated into the function what they've worked since and their reasons for not wanting to do the extended roster. And very similarly, with Lajos Teleki, although his is a little bit different because he has been working different hours, but again, generally, it will go to his hours of work, what was involved in the position prior to the Ring and Rent, what was involved.
PN101
Post Ring and Rent, what he has been doing during the extended hours of the roster and why he does not want to work them.
PN102
MR MANUEL: I withdraw my objection, or I withdraw my request.
PN103
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thank you. Yes, Ms Donaghy, you can proceed with your cross-examination of Mr Robertson.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN104
MS DONAGHY: Thank you. Mr Robertson, when did you actually move from the position of Credit Acceptance Manager to Finance Product Manager?---I think it was the 20 March - or the 17 March, around that period, this year.
PN105
So you were involved in most of the discussions leading up to the introduction of the Ring and Rent?---Yes.
PN106
In your statement, you talk about phone in applications being essential to the growing business and that that is the view of the company. Would it make any difference who receives those phone in application, could it be staff in another section or could it be anybody employed by Radio Rentals or external?---As long as they've got the training then anyone.
PN107
And what sort of training is involved?---Initially they would need to be able to have communications skills with the customer. Learn skills on our computer and ultimately have a understanding of good and bad credit.
PN108
And the understanding of good and bad credit, would they need that just to take the application or to determine the application?---To determine the application.
PN109
So in order to just take the application, they would need computer skills and communication skills?---Yes.
PN110
And I understand from your statement, there is quite a number of stores across Australia, I think it was around about 140- - -?---Yes.
PN111
- - - from memory. Are any of those open on Sundays?---Yes.
PN112
So what happens if they have an in-rent customer on a Sunday?---Those stores are able to send their application through to our company on-line, through the internet.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN113
Is it a salesperson who does that or?---I would suggest so, or an admin person at their agent's office.
PN114
And what happens at the moment, now that the staff have reverted to their previous rosters and I understand 6.30 is the latest. What happens if the stores or agencies have a customer after 6.30, how is that handled?---They can either use the internet to send that application through, or they can utilise the external Call Centre which we have for the period from approximately 5.30 to 8 o'clock.
PN115
Is that Call Centre used for Sundays?---I believe so.
PN116
Yes?---I believe so, yes, I'm not positive.
PN117
Now, forgive me for the delays, but with the change I'm not quite - - -?---Yes, sure.
PN118
- - - sure what number. So perhaps I will ask you, is it - who qualifies the customer for the privacy legislation and identification information that is required. Is it the salesperson when making a sale?---It is the salesperson to ensure that the customer has got correct identification that would satisfy the customer in front of us is who they say they are. And it is currently the role of that salesperson also to obtain a signed Privacy Act.
PN119
So is there any other legislative requirements that the person who takes the application, either the credit acceptance clerks or the outsourced Call Centre, do they have to clear any legislative requirements with the customer?---They just have to be aware of their requirements under the uniform consumer credit code and also they have to be aware of their requirements under the Privacy Act. And ultimately they have to ensure that our rental agreement is not misrepresented to the customer as a rent to buy contract. It is not a rent to buy, it is just a rent contract and a lot of customers get that confused. They think they are having a rent to buy and if they pay their 36 months rent, then at the end they own it and it was identified late last year that a significant risk to our company, that should customers be under that impression, then we could potentially be misrepresenting our contract.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN120
So the person taking the application, what would they do or say to ensure that the customer knows they are not entering into a rent to buy application?---They wouldn't really say anything up front, they would merely identify the customer - so we are talking about the agent, the salesperson. They would identify the customer and ensure that the customer signs the Privacy Act form.
PN121
Yes, that is the salesperson, but what would - - -?---Yes.
PN122
- - - the person taking the application have to do - have to say?---Yes, they would ask the customer their personal details, their full personal details and potentially they may receive a question from the customer.
PN123
All right. Mr Robertson, when - when was the change to the credit acceptance policy of the company to reduce the automatic acceptances, let us say from 80 per cent to 20 - or from 20 per cent to 80 per cent. What sort of discussions took place with the credit acceptance clerks about that before the decision was made?---There was just a general acknowledgment that it was going to be happening. That our automatic score card was inefficient, that we had this you-beaut computerised approval system which was under utilised.
PN124
And so did the credit acceptance clerks have input into that process to decide that the change would occur?---They virtually provided constant input since I started with company into what they were seeing. What, you know, what information about what was happening in the computer, applications that were being referred. So I guess it was just general feedback about what was happening.
PN125
Before the decision was made to change the number, that would be automatically accepted, was there any meetings or discussions with staff about how that might impact on their job?---It was more of just of a meeting of that - that is what is going to be happening, that we are going to be reviewing the score card.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN126
When was it decided that the credit acceptance clerks would have to pick up the Ring and Rent function?---It was identified after the specifications to the changes to the score card were complete, that obviously the workload that would be coming through to the acceptance clerks would be reducing, so management then had to determine how we would treat that, treat those staff.
PN127
So when was that?---Discussions were held around November and December of 2002.
PN128
Discussions were held then, but when was it actually decided this is going to be - this function is going to be incorporated into the credit acceptance clerks roles?---I would say it was around late December when management first recognised that that's what - that's the approach that we would take prior to contacting the ASU.
PN129
So that was late December. Well, what happened prior to late December in regard to how the company might account for the increased demand in the Ring and Rent?---I'm not sure what you're talking about.
PN130
Were there any other options canvassed by the company about how to deal with the Ring and Rent?---Well, yes. In my statement, I talked about how the three applications - there was three vacancies which were made, were advertised, internally.
PN131
So that was before the end of December?---Yes.
PN132
So if those positions - if somebody had taken up those positions, that would have meant that the credit acceptance clerks wouldn't have had to have taken on the Ring and Rent?---Potentially.
PN133
In your statement, and I'm referring here to the variation in hours that has occurred - - -?---Yes.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN134
- - - you state that Lajos Teleki's hours were changed so that he would work regularly until 6.30?---Yes.
PN135
Was the discussions with the other credit acceptance clerks about changing their hours at that time to work later?---Yes, there was.
PN136
What was the outcome of those discussions?---It was a general dislike to - objection to do it.
PN137
So what is the reason that the company determined that only Lajos Teleki would have to change his rostered hours?---Yes. At the time, there was really only enough work to keep one person to approximately 6.30 and Lajos Teleki had been employed in April of that year, so we are talking about 5 months later. Under the strict requirement, it was part of his employment that we would need him to show flexibility with his hours between the ordinary hours in the bandwidth, which is outlined in the EB so he was quite willing to do that whereas the previous - well, the other credit acceptance clerks showed an objection to being asked to do that, although they did do it throughout the trial period.
PN138
What about when the change came to work where you would require one person working till 9 pm on Fridays?---Yes.
PN139
How many different credit acceptance clerks worked through till 9 pm on Friday?---Through that small time, I think it might have only been Lajos, perhaps one other person.
PN140
Did you ask the other credit acceptance clerks to change their hours to work through till 9 at that time?---Yes, and a couple of them did. I think Helen was one and Pam was another.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN141
Then the 9 o'clock got dropped back to 7.30?---Yes. Sorry, Pam and Helen, I think you'll find, worked to the 7.30 roster so I think you'll find Lajos was the only one who actually worked to 9. It was only a couple of weeks where we quickly determined that there was not enough work to warrant someone working till 9 o'clock. So I think Lajos might have done it for 4 or 5 weeks and then we dropped it back to 7.30.
PN142
Are you aware of how many In Rent inquiries come through to the credit acceptance area after 5.30 at night?---I haven't got the figures in front of me, no.
PN143
Have you got a general idea of how many?---Yes.
PN144
On any given night, how many inquiries are likely to come through?---I would say currently there's probably half a dozen.
PN145
Half a dozen per night?---Yes.
PN146
Between, say, 5.30 and 7?---Yes. That's on feedback provided by the credit acceptance clerks.
PN147
Which credit acceptance clerks told you that?---Just all of them in general. When I asked for feedback on: how did it go last night - when I was the Credit Acceptance Manager, I'd get there and I'd say: how was it last night? Was it dead or, you know, did you get anything through, many calls, that sort of thing.
PN148
So do you recall, for example, Sheryl telling you there would be half a dozen?---No, I don't recall any particular person.
PN149
So at the moment, at 6.30 the phones are switched through to the outsource call centre?---Yes.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN150
Okay. What is the financial arrangement for that? Do they get paid per call or is - - -?---It's - - -
PN151
MR MANUEL: Before Mr Robertson answers this, I would ask for this part of the transcript to be marked as confidential, your Honour. This is commercially sensitive information.
PN152
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there any objection to that, Ms Donaghy?
PN153
MS DONAGHY: No, sir.
PN154
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It does appear to me that we are dealing with matters that are of a commercial nature - - -
PN155
MS DONAGHY: Yes, I appreciate that.
PN156
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - and I will ask that this part of the transcript be marked as "commercial in confidence."
PN157
MR MANUEL: Thank you, your Honour.
CONTINUED IN TRANSCRIPT-IN-CONFIDENCE
CONTINUED FROM TRANSCRIPT-IN-CONFIDENCE
PN158
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
**** PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON XXN MS DONAGHY
PN159
MR MANUEL: I might ask for Mr Robertson to be released unless your Honour, obviously, has some questions.
PN160
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have got one question, Mr Manuel, of a procedural nature only. I take it that the statement that Mr Robertson attested to, that I marked as R1, was the same as the document that I was provided with last week?
PN161
MR MANUEL: No, your Honour. It is very similar but as a result of matters raised by Ms Donaghy in attempts to agree certain things, there have been some changes to it.
PN162
PN163
MR MANUEL: Your Honour, that is the applicant's case.
PN164
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Ms Donaghy?
PN165
MS DONAGHY: Thank you, sir. Just on procedure here today, everybody has tried to work with the company so that the credit acceptance section of the company won't be disadvantaged by the number of people who need to give evidence, so what we have got is we have got two of the people who will be giving evidence today, but the other two need to come in after these people have finished giving evidence, and so as not to waste the Commission's time, what I would - it is going to be very difficult to know how long cross-examinations will take.
PN166
MR MANUEL: Hours. No, I'm sorry, I'm not being serious.
PN167
MS DONAGHY: I'm just wondering the best way to manage that?
PN168
MR MANUEL: My client is very grateful for the attempt to accommodate or the successful attempt, I might add, to accommodate its needs. I really think that is a matter probably for Mr Ebert to discuss with the credit acceptance clerks. I'm sorry not to use their names, but I mean I don't propose to be cross-examining for very long. I would think maybe 15 minutes. One never knows. I wouldn't expect it to be much longer. Therefore, depending how long Ms Donaghy is in evidence-in-chief, add 15 minutes or so to that and that is each witness covered.
PN169
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There you have it, Ms Donaghy. You've got an indication there from Mr Manuel. I need to advise you that I do have another matter at 3 o'clock today so we have a time limit in terms of how long we can sit in terms of today's hearing.
PN170
MS DONAGHY: Well, look what I would actually like to ask, perhaps, Mr Ebert, is that given we have got two witnesses, the first one will be Ms Teigesser, who probably will take the longer, certainly, than Ms Clarke, we would certainly, I would imagine then, get through those two probably within about an hour and a half, and so there would be time for the third witness to come and give evidence.
PN171
MR MANUEL: But not the fourth?
PN172
MS DONAGHY: Well, I would like to say, yes, but - - -
PN173
MR MANUEL: No, I'm not trying to press you into cutting back your examination-in-chief. I'm just wondering - it sounds to me like we really just need - well, if we are going to have to come back another day, then perhaps we come back and do both of the other witnesses in one go just like has been done here.
PN174
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is another option. In fact, it seems to me we could spend quite a bit of time this afternoon talking about the programming issue. I suggest we might see how quickly we deal with the first of the two witnesses, and then review the question of programming.
PN175
MR MANUEL: Yes. Well, I'm happy with that, your Honour, yes.
PN176
MS DONAGHY: Thank you. Sir, what the union will be contending today is that certainly in relation to the section 127 application to stop or prevent industrial action, our members aren't taking unprotected industrial action or, indeed, industrial action of any kind. Rather, they are operating under the provisions of clause 4.4 of the enterprise agreement which is the dispute settlement procedure of that agreement, and specifically section 4.4.8 that provides that whilst the dispute settlement procedure is being followed, work shall continue normally in accordance with the existing custom.
PN177
I suppose that would be the question for the Commission. What is the existing custom of those clerks. We will be calling evidence from four of the customer acceptance clerks to show that they are working in accordance with their existing custom. It is true that during the process of trying to find a satisfactory resolution to the dispute over the change of the role, each of our four members have, as a sign of good faith, accepted their employer's direction to work the new rostered hours but when it became clear to them that the company was not inclined towards compromise, they invoked their right, or what we say is their right under the enterprise agreement, to work in accordance with their existing custom.
PN178
The union will also draw evidence relation to the section 170LW dispute to show that the employer has changed the roles of the credit acceptance clerks without proper consultation or, certainly, agreement and it is that change that has resulted in the altered starting and finishing times for each of the workers. It will be the union's submission that the company has no authority to direct those changes because of the harsh and unjust circumstances that result from those changes. Whilst we agree with Mr Manuel that there are many decisions of this Commission that enshrine the employer's prerogatives, their right to manage, there are also decisions which show that they cannot enforce that right unreasonably.
PN179
What we will be showing to the Commission today is that the result of those changes is, indeed, harsh and unreasonable in the circumstances. The first witness that we wish to call is Sheryl Teigesser. Sir, would the Commission like our other witness to leave the Court while that evidence is being given?
PN180
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Donaghy, Mr Manuel has not asked for that and I have absolutely no doubt that if he wants to revisit the question of witnesses remaining in the room, he will do so.
PN181
PN182
MS DONAGHY: Thank you, Sheryl. What is your position with Radio Rentals?---I'm a credit acceptance consultant or clerk.
PN183
How long have you held that position?---Almost 9 years.
PN184
Before the Ring and Rent function was introduced in March of this year, what did your duties involve?---Our duties were to only assess the credit worthiness of an application taken by a sales person. Those details were taken at point of sale. Those details of the application were put onto a queue which we would then choose that person from the queue, or choose a customer from the queue and then credit assess that customer. We use things like the White Pages to verify customers' details. We check time at address, time of employment, maybe confirm their employment. We also use a company called Baycorp Advantage which lists all the credit that you have applied for, any problems you've had with credit over the last 5 years. They actually - through Baycorp, you can determine a lot of things from the customer's application taken by the salesman. We can determine what part of that is accurate against their actual Baycorp file in relation to their time at addresses, how many applications or how many credit inquiries they have on their file and if they've defaulted with any company. We have a look at age and a number of things. That would be our duty, to credit assess applications.
PN185
Then once you have made your decision, who would you inform?---Pardon?
PN186
Once you have made your decision about whether they should be offered credit or otherwise, who would you inform?---Everything is done online through the computer system. If the customer is accepted, then we AC the account and it comes up on the salesman's queue then that the application has been accepted. If we need further information, there is actually a comments box that we can actually type in further information that we would require, and the salesman knows when it is under review and he knows where to look to see what details we may further need to look at that application. If the person has adverse credit, if they are not stable in their addresses or there's been too many irregularities in the application, then we would decline that application and the salesman would know that by looking on his queue.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
PN187
When you are doing just the credit acceptance work, what was your starting and finishing times?---I started - they varied from 9 till 5, 9.30 till 5.30 and 9 to 5.30, so it was 9 to 5, 9 to 5.30 or 9.30 to 5.30. On a Thursday on a rotation roster basis, we covered Thursday nights which in the previous rosters we started at 10 and finish at 9 and were paid some overtime for that, and Saturdays back before Christmas, we worked 9 to 4.
PN188
Sir, do I have permission to approach the witness?
PN189
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN190
MR MANUEL: Before this happens, could I have a look at the document, please? Yes, that is fine.
PN191
MS DONAGHY: Okay?
PN192
MR MANUEL: Yes.
PN193
MS DONAGHY: Do you recognise this document, Sheryl?---Yes, I do.
PN194
Can you tell the Commission what the document is?---This document is a copy of our roster, starting from 24 March and finishing on 5 April. It actually demonstrates the - - -
PN195
Just before you go on, have you got two pages?---Yes, I have. Yes, and we go through, sorry, until 19 April.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
PN196
All right, thank you. Now, can you give the Commission an outline of what you were doing in those weeks, week 3, week 4, week 5 and week 6, what your role was?---In week 3, starting 24 March, that week was doing the Ring and Rent roster which was 6 days, showing 8 o'clock starts, 8 o'clock finishes. Week 4 is our normal roster where we would do acceptance work. We would do our normal credit assessing of applicants applying for credit with the Radio Rentals group, ..... stores. That shows the hours that I explained before, the 9 to 5, 9 to 5.30 hours. Week 5 goes back to the Ring and Rent week where we were taking phone applications for Ring and Rent applicants from agencies. That shows, again, 6 days doing the Ring and Rent with 8 o'clock starts and finishes and week 6 is our normal acceptance roster, with the exception of a Thursday night where I worked from 11 until 8 pm.
PN197
Thank you, and weeks 1 and 2, were they generally reflective of the hours that would be shown for weeks 3 and 4?---Yes, they are. The In Rent - the Ring and Rent positions started on 10 March so we had - I think we started the ball off rolling on that, so our first week was Ring and Rent and then the second week would have been acceptance. So therefore, week 3 would go back to Ring and Rent, and week 4 would be normal acceptance work.
PN198
Thank you, so in week 3, when you were doing Ring and Rent, could you tell me what was involved in undertaking the Ring and Rent function?---The Ring and Rent function is to take applications - two phones were set up. Our office is - actually, the six of us have been split into two sections. Three people will do the normal acceptance queue and three people will do the Ring and Rent roster and, of course, that rotates after a week. There's been two phones set up, one in each half of the office. If it's our Ring and Rent week, the phone is turned up and the phone is turned down in the other office. When that phone rings, we answer the call. We then determine that the salesperson - we actually speak to the salesperson first who is an agent from one of the States in Australia. We verify that he has the - the Privacy Act is signed by the customer, and that also he has the adequate ID for us to continue. We then take details from the salesperson in relation to their name, their address. We add the stock to the account. We then go through with the date of birth. We then add the licence or the ID details to the application, mark that it is a Ring and Rent application on the screen, and from there we speak to the customer and we get
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
from that customer their length of address, maybe a previous address if they haven't been at their current address for very long. We then get details in relation to their employment and once again, if they haven't been in their employment very long, we get previous employment details. If they are on a pension, of course, we just don't worry about that. The next thing would be their income, to go through their income details on how much they are earning, whether they own a car, if they are receiving benefits, if they have dependant children, if they have credit cards and what's the limit on those credit cards, and if they owe any other loans to any other credit providers. Then we also from the customer get their next of kin details and two friends or relatives not living with them in relation to - to have references.
PN199
Do you give them any advice about obtaining credit?---No.
PN200
This roster that you have got with week 3, week 4, week 5 and week 6, is week 6 the last - - -
PN201
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Donaghy, can I interrupt your question and I am loathe to do so but are you proposing to admit that particular document?
PN202
MS DONAGHY: I am, sir. Do you want me to do that now?
PN203
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I wonder whether you might do that now?
PN204
MS DONAGHY: Certainly.
PN205
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You see, you are operating off a substantial advantage. You and Mr Manuel have a copy of the document and I'm having to use my imagination.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
PN206
MS DONAGHY: Well, I will tender the document now, sir.
PN207
MR MANUEL: No objection, your Honour.
PN208
PN209
MS DONAGHY: Sheryl, was week 6 the last week that you actually worked through till 8 o'clock at night on the Ring and Rent or did you have other rosters - - -?---Week 6, I was actually working a normal Thursday night for traders. That was just before Easter so that was a normal late night trading night. That was only for - in that week, I was rostered on for Radio Rentals and Home Co stores and normal credit acceptance work for interstate agents.
PN210
Right, so since week 5, what time have you been finishing?---5 and 5.30, except Thursday night where I would finish at 9. I have to work this Thursday night until 9 and this is a normal credit acceptance week for me.
PN211
So did you agree to work those Ring and Rent hours?---No. We've had an objection all the way through that we were not happy about working the 8 am starts or 8 pm finishes.
PN212
So why did you agree to work those hours?---It was a show of, I suppose, for us good faith. The company knew we'd had several meetings with Uwe, and the company was aware that we weren't happy about doing the 8 o'clock starts or finishes so it was just a show of good faith without prejudice that - we're just people, we want to do our jobs.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
PN213
Okay, now can I take it back to where you first became aware that the company was changing the score card system so that 80 per cent of the applications would be automatically accepted?---Yes.
PN214
Do you recall when that was?---I think we found out the score card was being reviewed, I think, in about September/October and Paul Robertson actually worked on it, I think, for a couple of weeks or a week - a week or two in November.
PN215
Did you have any input into that decision?---It might have been an unaware decision of - an unaware statement of - maybe a suggestion of - they've only been at their address for 2 months and 6 months, this should not have gone through. Paul and Jody Good were actually in charge of doing the score card and rearranging the score card to do the - - -
PN216
Who is Jody Good?---Jody Good is - I don't know her title. I'm not really sure. She is an employee of Radio Rentals.
PN217
Is she a credit acceptance clerk?---No, she's not.
PN218
Were there any discussions with you about what the impact might be on the staffing levels that would result from the increase in automatic acceptances?---In relation to the score card, not much was discussed in relation to the score card. There were discussions afterwards, however, when Paul approached us about the Ring and Rent positions. We were given an opportunity to agree or disagree with the opportunity to take up the Ring and Rent positions. None of the credit acceptance clerks agreed to take on the Ring and Rent positions. There was a meeting between myself, Ian Heard from the ASU, Paul Robertson and Uwe Ebert when it came to the point where we had all declined the offer as to where we would go from there. It was discussed in that meeting that it would be unfair to pick - the staff levels had to be reduced. It would be unfair to pick three people to do the Ring and Rent positions. Uwe then suggested that seeing there was no other way around it that the company
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
would call for volunteer redundancies. We discussed that there would be no discrimination in relation to who would be acceptable as a volunteer redundant or not. That was discussed at that meeting. That was really the only discussion from there.
PN219
Did you apply for redundancy, a voluntary redundancy?---Yes, I did.
PN220
What was the company's response to that application?---We were informed - after the meeting with Uwe, Paul, Ian and myself, Paul Robertson called a meeting between all the acceptance clerks and stated that what had happened in the meeting, and that the company was calling for voluntary redundancies. At that point in time, Michelle O'Loughlin and myself emailed Paul once we got back to the office to say, yes, we were interested and if we could know the figures and approximate time of when it would all be okay. Pam Warner wanted to see the figures first before committing herself further. From there, we got an email back from Paul to say that he'd let us know as soon as he heard anything. I actually spoke to Uwe on the Monday who said that the application had been to the General Manager of Consumer Finance, and then was before the CEO but unfortunately the CEO was not in until the following day. It was on the Thursday, I think, that I rang Uwe and said, "Do we know what's going on? Has anything been heard?" and Uwe then stated that the offer had been taken off the table.
PN221
So were you informed at that time that you would have to take on the Ring and Rent role?---I think we were still wondering, at that point in time, what we were going to be doing.
PN222
Do you remember when you were informed that you would have to take on the Ring and Rent role?---I think it was about the middle of February. The original roster that included the Sundays and extra Saturdays - the Sundays were removed because we would have to sign another contract to work the extra Sundays and the Saturdays were - after another meeting, it was determined that the extra Saturdays in that roster would have to be removed because our pay period goes for a 76 hour fortnight and any additional - there's only one Saturday in that 76 hour fortnight. Any additional Saturday had to be paid at overtime so the extra Saturday and Sunday were removed from the roster. I think it was about the middle of February that it was determined that we had to do the Ring and Rent roster.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
PN223
Did you advise the company that you didn't want to work those early starts and late finishes on the roster?---Yes, we did. We had several discussions, yes.
PN224
Are you aware of any alternative proposals that were put to the company that wouldn't require those people who didn't want to work the extended hours?---The company did ask us if we could come up with any ideas. We suggested maybe employing part time people to work, say, from 5.30 until 8, uni students, or somebody who's looking for after hours work and weekend work. We suggested that maybe from 5.30 until 8 o'clock, okay, if we have to do the Ring and Rent, we will do it during those normal trading hours, and from 5.30 until 8 o'clock, it would go to the outsource call centre, and then we would take it back on again at 9 o'clock the next morning. The latest proposal that we put to the company was that Lajos was prepared to continue to work until 6.30. He was quite happy doing that, and also Wayne who really is not included in the dispute has taken on the function of - or the, I suppose, the function of taking up the enterprise bargaining agreement and working 18 starts per month. He actually works one week until 6.30 so we felt as though we were taking it over at 9 in the morning and it was going through until 6.30 so, therefore, the call centre would only have to handle the applications from 6.30 until 8, or 7 because of daylight saving.
PN225
So as at this present time, the credit acceptance section are still taking the applications until what time?---Until 6.30.
PN226
So if I understand what you are saying, what is happening now was really consistent with the latest proposal from the staff. Is that right?---That was the latest proposal that the Ring and Rent week that Lajos did, he was there until 6.30 and the Ring and Rent week that Wayne did, he was there until 6.30 so we had the Ring and Rent facility covered from 9 am till 6.30 and that was - the proposal was not accepted by the company.
PN227
The credit acceptance section take the calls between 9 am and 6.30 at the moment?---Yes.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
PN228
What happens to the applications outside of those hours?---The applications are taken by the outsource call centre from 6.30 until 8 and, possibly, first thing in the morning. We are always in before 9 o'clock, and there would, possibly, on a normal working day in the morning, be one or two, maybe, applications in the morning for us to look at, to assess for credit worthiness.
PN229
When you working the Ring and Rent rostered hours from week 1 to week 6, how many Ring and Rent inquiries would you get after 5.30 on average per day?---I think the first 2 weeks that I worked it, I think I received - until 8 - that was when we were working until 8 pm, so from 5.30 until 8, in one week I received one. The next time I did the Ring and Rent I actually, I think, I had one inquiry and one Ring and Rent. On a Saturday night - - -
PN230
Before you move on to that was that per week or per night?---That's per week. I spent my time doing - keying in defaults and doing scanning and anything else I could - I washed the cups, anything else I could find to do from 5.30 until 8, especially on a Saturday night. There is nobody else in the building. There is you and a security guard that wanders around all over the building so you are in the building on your own.
PN231
Why are you opposed to working the early starts and the last finishes?---During the time that we did the Ring and Rent roster, I found my health suffered. Because of the odd starting times there were no two days alike and also my lifestyle, working until 8 o'clock of a night-time didn't improve it.
PN232
Do you have a family?---Yes, I do. I have an 18 year old daughter, a husband. I found it extremely difficult - Mike works - my husband works night shift so he would - if I was starting at 8 am I'd be gone before he got home. When I was finishing at 8 pm I would be home for approximately 45 minutes and then he would leave to go to work so I would miss him in the morning because he would come home and go to sleep. It was causing a lot of friction between him and myself. My daughter going back 10 and 8 years, with the hours I did work at Radio Rentals I lost a lot of the communication and mother daughter bonding, that I should have had with Zoe, because I was working and working
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XN MS DONAGHY
every second Saturday and Thursday nights and long hours and with her coming home from school she was home on her own. I'd come home tired and it caused a big rift within the family to the point where she decided to go and live with her father. I had just gotten my relationship back with my daughter and there is nothing that will come between my husband and my daughter where I can't - because of the extended hours, I'm not going to get to see her. She calls in of a night-time, she has tea with us. It is nice to have that back. I also take care of my husband's grandfather which means leaving work, maybe going to see him to make sure that he is not eating something that is like 6 months out of date and I do some housework for him so with the 8 o'clock finishes, especially on a Saturday night I was getting run down, I was tired I was biting everybody's head off. I also have glaucoma. I find by the end of a week by doing the Ring and Rent roster, the screen is very pale, I am having trouble with my eyesight. There is - my voice gets croaky by the end of the week because you are constantly on the phone, non stop, the whole day so by the time it comes to Saturday, that is it. So my health, just in that time, I noticed a big change in my attitude, my health. I have had scans for lots of things lately. In this last few weeks that we have gone back to normal and doing our 9 to 5 - 9.30 to 5.30, whatever, I have found I have got a lot more life in me. I am not going home extremely tired and with the different starts - one day you are starting at 8 on the Ring and Rent, then you are at 9.30, the next day is 12, then you're back to 8 and then you go back to a normal week where you just start to get back into the rhythm of working 9 to 5 and 9.30 to 50.30 and bang, you're back into doing it again. So it is like working night-shift one day and early mornings the next.
PN233
Thank you, Sheryl, I have no further questions.
PN234
PN235
MR MANUEL: Your Honour, thank you. You are talking about your voice croaking? You are not working any extra hours, are you?---No, I'm not working any extra hours.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN236
Then your voice would croak whether you were working late roster or not, wouldn't it?---No, it wouldn't because with Ring and Rent you are constantly - you are asking particulars from the salesperson and in turn then the customer so you are forever talking
PN237
But that has got nothing to do with the rosters though, has it? That is the duties that you are doing?---Well, it has. If I'm doing a normal acceptance week, I may only talk on the phone very minimally once the accounts are looked at, the comments are put up on screen, there's no reason for me to talk to a sales person.
PN238
Right, let me put it to you this way. If you are doing the Ring and Rent duties?---Yes.
PN239
On your current roster, that would be no different in terms of your voice to doing the Ring and Rent duties on the roster you object to, wouldn't it?---Perhaps not.
PN240
When you say your health suffered, you haven't reported that to your employer, have you?---In relation to what?
PN241
Well, you said your health suffered. I'm asking you, have you reported it to your employer in the last 8 weeks?---No, I haven't because there didn't seem to be much point with the dispute going on.
PN242
It wasn't serious enough to report it to your employer, was it?---I've had an MRI scan and to be tested for multiple sclerosis.
PN243
That is the fault of the roster, is it?---No, it's not, no.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN244
Have you taken extra sick leave in the last 8 weeks?---No, unfortunately I'm company orientated and I don't believe in - - -
PN245
But you wouldn't attend for work if you weren't fit to do so, would you?---I have been known to, yes.
PN246
Well, that would be a breach of your occupational, health, safety and welfare obligations, wouldn't it?---Unless if it's an arm ache or a headache, yes, I have been known to take sick leave because of a headache, yes.
PN247
Now, you are saying that the number of inquiries up to 5.30 when you were working this, we will call it the late roster for want of a better description, and you are saying that they were limited, weren't they? There were very few, weren't there?---Yes, there were.
PN248
But you had no way of knowing on any night how many you would get, would you?---You tend to get a - - -
PN249
No, I'm not asking you what you tend to get. I'm asking you, you had no way of knowing on a given night how many inquires you were going to get, did you?---Not necessarily, no.
PN250
It is a question of you being available to the customers of your employer, isn't it?---I can't answer that.
PN251
Well, that is your point of being there, isn't it? The point of you being there is that one of the customers of Radio Rentals rings, even if it is only one, you are there to answer or take their application, aren't you?---I assume so, yes.
PN252
Now, you have no role in assessing the business needs of Radio Rentals, do you?---No.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN253
No. You have no knowledge of the cost of out-sourcing, do you?---No.
PN254
You don't know the competitive issues facing Radio Rentals either, do you?---I understand the competitive issues, yes. We did have a meeting with the CEO who went through the competitive issues that we are facing.
PN255
That is the basis of your knowledge is what the CEO has told you, isn't it?---We've had no other communication from the company, so, no.
PN256
You have no other independent skill or knowledge which would enable you to assess those issues, do you?---No, I don't have a degree, no.
PN257
You have no role in management that I'm aware of?---No.
PN258
Your current arrangement, as I understand what you are saying is that there are two of the six employees, Lajos and Wayne who are prepared to work the later periods of time, is that right?---Yes.
PN259
Your view is that that is the appropriate resolution of this matter, is that correct?---We have tried other solutions in relation to the part-timers. Okay, I can understand the company's financial point of view on that. In relation to Lajos and Wayne working, at this point in time it is until 7 o'clock. They were prepared to work until 6.30 as to what they were working prior to Christmas. So we thought that that was an adequate thing, that the phones would be covered until 6.30.
PN260
What it means is that two of the six employees have to work the extended rosters and four of them, including yourself, don't. You don't have to change then, do you?---The statement brought up by Paul before in relation to change?
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN261
No?---I do like change and you're - - -
PN262
I'm asking, please listen to the question and make a responsive answer?---Yes.
PN263
If that is left in place, you don't have to change, do you? You stay on your normal hours that you have been working, that is right, isn't it?---Well, it is, yes.
PN264
Yes. What happens if Wayne of Lajos are sick?---Then somebody would cover their shifts.
PN265
Who?---Either myself or Helen and we've done it in the past where Lajos has had a day off. We've covered his 6.30 finish.
PN266
In other words, you are prepared to work late on occasions, is that right?---Yes.
PN267
You worked late on Thursdays though anyway, don't you?---Which is a normal trading Thursday night, yes.
PN268
But you work late nevertheless, don't you, on that night?---When I took the job on, Thursday nights were part of my - - -
PN269
I see. Is part of your objection then that when you started you knew you were going to have to work Thursday nights but you didn't know that you were going to have to - or going to be asked to work these hours? Is that right?---That's not what I meant, no.
PN270
Well, you are saying to me, as I understand, you are saying: I don't object to working Thursday because I knew that was part of the deal from the start?---Thursday night trading has always been here so - and we work as a team.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN271
Well, you signed up for a certified agreement, didn't you? Were you aware of its contents?---Yes.
PN272
You have had the opportunity to read it?---Yes.
PN273
You have accepted the pay rise that went with the certified agreement, is that right?---Yes.
PN274
Yes. Are you able to direct me to anywhere in the certified agreement where there's a restriction on the ability to change hours?---I haven't got the enterprise bargaining agreement.
PN275
I'm happy to give you a copy of it if you would like some time because what I'm going to suggest to you is that there's nothing in there. I will be very interested if you can find a spot for me. May I approach the witness?
PN276
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Manuel, perhaps before you do, I might ask if you can just show Ms Donaghy the document just to make sure that we are all talking about the same document.
PN277
MR MANUEL: It should be the 2002 agreement.
PN278
THE WITNESS: Now, what was the question?
PN279
MR MANUEL: All right. Well, let us start early. Do you accept that the certified agreement is focussed on the need for flexibility?---On behalf of the company?
PN280
No?---Or the employee?
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN281
Yes, your behalf. I'm talking about what your obligations are under the certified agreement. Perhaps I might take you to 2.1.1 to start with?---Yes.
PN282
Perhaps you could inform us, what flexibility is there going to be in your hours of work as what you see as the appropriate resolution of this matter?---It doesn't say anything about flexible hours of work in here or hours of work. It says flexibility and I believe - - -
PN283
It excludes hours of work, does it?---I'm not saying it excludes hours of work. What I'm saying is flexible in the fact that we are doing the Ring and Rent position. We have worked the odd promotion night. We have made sure that the acceptance team is there. I've worked midnight sales and barn sales so we've always seen the flexibility as if the company needs us to be there for acceptance, then we have in the past been there, yes.
PN284
You don't view - could you first tell me whether there's anything in there which excludes hours of work from flexibility?---It doesn't exclude it but it doesn't highlight it either.
PN285
Right, and on the basis you are saying that that flexibility does not apply to this case, is that right?---No, I'm not saying that.
PN286
Well, what are you saying about that?---You're trying to point me down one track to say that the enterprise bargaining agreement says there are flexibility of hours.
PN287
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Teigesser, your task in this exercise is just to answer Mr Manuel's questions?---Yes.
PN288
There will be an opportunity for Ms Donaghy to follow up on any of those issues and that is an opportunity that Ms Donaghy can take up to clarify issues that you think ought to be clarified?---Okay.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN289
But rather than engaging in a debate with Mr Manuel, you just have to answer the questions at this stage?---Okay.
PN290
MR MANUEL: Perhaps we will go somewhere else. Perhaps we might just come back to what I might describe as the clash of lifestyles between you and your husband because he works afternoon shift or something, does he not?---He works night-shift, yes, early days.
PN291
Sorry, I missed that second part?---And early days.
PN292
And early days and he would then start work at, what, 11 o'clock in the evening, would he?---10.30, between 10 and 10.30.
PN293
Between 10 and 10.30. Has there been any discussion between you and your husband about him moving his hours to accommodate your needs at work?---No.
PN294
The focus is on basically your hours meeting his needs, isn't it?---No.
PN295
Well, one of the reasons why you are not prepared to work these later shifts is because of the impact upon your relationship with your husband, is that right?---It's not only my husband. It's my daughter.
PN296
No, it is just one of the reasons?---It's just one of the reasons, yes.
PN297
Now, as I understand there was a discussion about voluntary redundancies, that was late last year. Is that right?---It was the beginning of this year in the end of January, I think.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN298
This arose as a result of the - I think you call it something different to me. I will call it the In Rent, introduction of In Rent. I think you call it Ring and Rent?---It's Ring and Rent.
PN299
Ring and Rent. Now, as I understand, there was a meeting between the union and the company with employee representatives. Is that right?---Yes.
PN300
How did that meeting come to be held?---We were - is this the very first meeting with - between - - -
PN301
I'm just talking about the introduction of Ring and Rent. So if we go to Ring and Rent, there's then a meeting arranged between the company and the union and some representatives, the Credit Acceptance Clerks, is that right?---How far back do you want to go? After Paul discussed with us each individually regarding the Ring and Rent roster, we had a certain amount of time. I think it was 13 January to give a response to the company whether we wanted to take up the option of the Ring and Rent position.
PN302
Yes?---After that, all of our responses were, "no". I think I then contacted Ian Hird in the ASU and had a chat to him in relation to the roster, what it entailed and all that sort of thing and a meeting was then called between myself, Paul Robertson, Uwe Ebert and Ian Hird.
PN303
Now, that meeting was to discuss then the introduction of the Ring and Rent position as well as the roster for it?---That was - no, that initial meeting was we had all declined the offer of the Ring and Rent position and it was where we were going to go from there. It was then brought up that the staff had to be reduced by three and that it was unfair to pick three people from Acceptance to take up those positions. So then there was a debate I suppose about where we should go from there and then it was Uwe that suggested that because we had all declined to the Ring and Rent roster, we didn't agree with the hours that Acceptance still had to be reduced by three people but the company would call for voluntary redundancies.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN304
Now, in terms of the dispute about the roster, we all know where that has gone, it has gone to the Commission?---Yes.
PN305
In terms of the facet of that dispute about the very introduction of Ring and Rent, that has not gone anywhere else, has it?---I don't understand.
PN306
Well, there's been an acceptance, albeit reluctantly, that Ring and Rent is now part of your duties, isn't it?---The Ring and Rent position has not really been accepted. It hasn't been accepted by - I know I can only speak for myself, it has not been accepted by myself. My colleagues may - or they will say the same thing. We are doing the Ring and Rent roster, as I stated before, as a show of good faith until everything is sorted out.
PN307
Right. I'm sorry to delay but I just want to draw the distinction between the Ring and Rent, what I might say is the Ring and Rent work and the Ring and Rent roster. The Ring and Rent roster is currently before his Honour now?---Yes.
PN308
The Ring and Rent work isn't before his Honour, is it? I'm sorry, that is very - the Ring and Rent work has been continued to be undertaken by the Credit Acceptance Clerks, has it not?---Yes, it has, yes.
PN309
There's been no further disputation in respect of those duties, has there?---I think because it was brought before his Honour in the first original meetings at the Commission, the hours of work are still being discussed and as far as I'm aware, the application or the references to the Ring and Rent position that we are actually doing is still, to my knowledge, not clarified.
PN310
Well, can you indicate when was the last time before the Commission on that particular issue?---That would have been - Fay, I need help.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN311
No, I'm sure Ms Donaghy can clarify it later but I just want you to go from your memory?---I just want the date. The date?
PN312
Unless there is something particularly exciting about that particular day I'm not expecting you to come up with that, but I mean is it a month ago, 2 months ago, 6 weeks ago, how long ago is that?---It would be a month to 6 weeks.
PN313
And you noted I assume in Ms Donaghy's opening that there was no reference to any objection to working the duties, did you note that?---No, I didn't.
PN314
It hasn't formed part of your dispute about the rosters, has it, for sometime?---Until the last Commission hearing, no.
PN315
Now, you applied for a voluntary redundancy, how did you do that?---I emailed Paul saying that I would like to apply for a voluntary redundancy.
PN316
And a few weeks later the word came back that they weren't going to be offered, didn't it?---No, it was actually the following week.
PN317
The following week?---Mm.
PN318
And were you annoyed about that?---I suppose I - I didn't think the company reserved the right to take the redundancy off the table. I think I spoke to Ian, I think, from the ASU and he said: yes, that the company had the right to remove them.
PN319
Do you still want one now?---I suppose if it was offered, yes.
PN320
And you understand from the evidence of Mr Robertson if Radio Rentals is in a position where it has to use the outsourcing service there will in fact be a reduction in staff, isn't there, or won't there?---Yes.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN321
Sorry, one thing I forgot to ask you, you were saying that Wayne and Lajos if they are sick then there would be something worked out between the four remaining people to cover their absences, is that right?---Yes.
PN322
What if they left work, what happens then?---What do you mean if they left work?
PN323
Well, if they resigned or got another job?---I have no idea, never thought about it.
PN324
It would mean - but you are saying that you are not prepared to work the hours that they are currently working, aren't you?---.....
PN325
You will have to make an audible response?---No, I don't think.
PN326
Now, you have referred to the roster, do you still have it before you, ASU1?---Yes.
PN327
I just want to clarify something. When it refers to weeks 3, 4, 5, 6 these are actually worked over a 2-week period, aren't they, the rosters?---They are, it's a 76 hour - well, it's based on a 76-hour fortnight, I think, yes.
PN328
So one week you will work six starts, for instance, the next week you will work four starts, or vice versa?---Yes.
PN329
Now, in terms of these rosters you worked them for what - how long did you work them for, the new rosters?---The new rosters?
PN330
Yes?---Six weeks I think.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN331
And everyone worked them?---Yes.
PN332
All six credit acceptance clerks?---Yes, mm.
PN333
And do you recall when you made the decision to go back what I might call to your current roster?---Mm.
PN334
Do you recall when that was?---I think it was 22 April.
PN335
Well, will the roster assist, you can refer to the roster if that will help you?---It - I think it was 22 April, yes, Tuesday.
PN336
As I understood the answer you gave to Ms Donaghy the reason why you returned was because you didn't believe any compromise was going to be forthcoming from management, is that right?---Yes.
PN337
You were doing that to exert pressure on Radio Rentals?---No.
PN338
Were you saying then that there was no possibility of resolution so we are going back to what we think is the right thing?---I don't understand.
PN339
Well, you see, you are saying the reason you went back was because you couldn't see any compromise from management? So I'm not being unfair to you, is that what you are saying?---I'm - it was decided to invoke the clause in the agreement that - we did the new roster and the Ring and Rent facility to show good faith in the company, I suppose because our suggestions were either not answered or - or declined, we decided to invoke the clause in the EB that states that we could return back to our normal hours until such time as the dispute was settled.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN340
I assume you are referring to the dispute settlement procedure, just to give you a hint, I think it might be 6.1.2.3?---No.
PN341
Actually, no, that is too far on, that is the hours of work, try 4.1 I think?---4.4.8.
PN342
4.4.8, yes, and that talks about the status quo, is that right?---Yes.
PN343
And it was on the basis of your understanding as to what the status quo was that you then made a decision, when I say you - I'm just talking about you at the moment made a decision to go back to the current rosters, is that right?---To our normal - - -
PN344
Well, I'm not going to call them - - -
PN345
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Manuel, I'm wondering whether we might - because you don't have the clause and because of the potential for confusion, I'm wondering whether we might get the witness to actually read out the relevant provision?
PN346
MR MANUEL: Yes, as the Commission wishes. Perhaps if you would be kind enough to just read that clause out?---
PN347
While the above procedure is being followed work shall continue normally in accordance with the existing custom, no party shall be prejudiced as to final settlement by the continuance of working in accordance with this subclause.
PN348
So I think the words actually were "normal custom" then, you formed the view that normal custom were the rosters that you were currently or you are currently working now and that is why you went back to them, is that right?---Yes.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN349
Now, you said that there was no - well, you had formed a view that there was no compromise going to be coming from Radio Rentals. It is the case though, isn't it, that they removed the proposal for Sunday work as a result of consultation with you, didn't they?---No, the Sunday work had to be removed because to - for us to take up the Sunday work we'd have to sign either another contract or another enterprise bargaining agreement because under the existing one we can only work five Sundays a year, according to the award, we can only work five Sundays a year. So to do the Sunday and to work the Sundays in that original Ring and Rent roster we would then have to sign another contract or enterprise bargaining agreement.
PN350
They did reduce the number of late finishes though, didn't they?---I think by one or maybe two, yes.
PN351
In other words, there were concerns being raised by you and your colleagues and by the ASU and in response to those concerns they did in fact reduce the number of late finishes, didn't they?---Yes, I think so, yes.
PN352
And how long had you been discussing this roster issue before you - I will use the word "invoked" your view of the certified agreement?---From day one I suppose in January. Uwe and Paul were aware all the way through that we did not want to do the early starts, or the late finishes and that's where we had, I think, the final meeting between Uwe, Paul, myself and Ian that because there could be - there was no - we couldn't go any further, that we would have to lodge then a dispute and take it further.
PN353
Do you maintain a position that you have been consulted about this roster?---We were, in - in a sense.
PN354
I think I had better explore that. I mean, what I have heard you say is that the rosters came out, lets say perhaps as early as January with the - - -?---That was the original Ring and Rent roster which - - -
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN355
Ring and Rent roster ?--- - - - that roster was actually, the Ring and Rent position was advertised in November internally within the company. That roster accompanied, I hope I'm correct, that roster accompanied that original application so - yes.
PN356
You had a discussion with Mr Heard and company - - -?---Yes.
PN357
- - - sometime in January?---Yes, yes.
PN358
You then have a further roster issue, can I suggest in mid February which is the what I might call the particularly contentious roster and then you have ongoing discussions between yourself, Mr Robertson, Mr Ebert and the ASU?---Yes.
PN359
All the way through until we are before this Commission that is the situation, isn't it?---Yes, it is, yes.
PN360
What are you saying is the defective of the consultation process?---Okay. I suppose, because we have stated that we were not happy with the 8 am starts and 8 pm finishes, I'm not saying that the company did not come back to us with revised rosters, and Paul did that, that is not a question. The fact is that we had made it known that we were not happy with the 8 am starts and finishes. We were basically told that we would be doing - we would be doing the Ring and Rent roster and we - and that was it, and the Ring and Rent position.
PN361
Is your objection then to the process as I understand it, that whatever you call them the meetings between the employees and the company didn't resolve the issues to your satisfaction?---It didn't, no, it didn't resolve the issues, no.
PN362
Sorry, to be fair to you, I should say I don't think anyone doubts that it didn't resolve them to your satisfaction but is that your complaint - - -?---That's right, yes.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN363
- - - about the process?---No.
PN364
Right, well, what is your complaint about the process?---The actual process of where we have gotten to to so far?
PN365
Well, the process that I set out for you with the discussions from mid January on until now that went before his Honour?---I suppose the processes were - it seemed to be a bit of banging your head against the wall, we didn't seem to be getting anywhere where a - the 8 o'clock starts and 8 o'clock finishes were still in the roster and we hadn't agreed to it right from the very start.
PN366
Excuse me for one moment, your Honour? Could I suggest to you that - sorry, I withdraw that. You made some reference to the limitation of five Sundays - - -?---Yes.
PN367
- - - to be worked? Could I suggest to you that that isn't actually in the enterprise agreement, it is in the salesperson agreement?---It's not in the - no, it's actually in the clerical award, clerks, retail clerks award, as far as I know.
PN368
Why couldn't you work extra Sundays as overtime under the certified agreement?---The original Ring and Rent roster that was offered to us and the Ring and Rent position, the package that was offered to us if we decided to take up the Ring and Rent position was in the vicinity of $500 more a year than what we were getting. So we would be paid not overtime for a Saturday or a Sunday, we would be paid normal rates for a Sunday and for that we were back then at the original meeting with Paul offered an $500 a year with no overtime for Sundays.
PN369
It seems to me then what you are saying is that it was possible for you to work Sundays as overtime - - -?---No.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN370
- - - but the payment wasn't adequate?---No, I - there is no way known I would - I wanted to work Sundays.
PN371
No, I'm not saying you did for a moment?---Yes.
PN372
What I'm saying is, do you accept that you could have, assuming: single, no troubles in the world, don't have to worry about anything?---And what life is that?
PN373
That you could then you wouldn't have been prohibited from working Sundays by the certified agreement, is that your understanding?---I don't know, can you explain it another way perhaps?
PN374
Yes. As I understand your evidence is this, that the certified agreement does not contain a specific limitation as to the number of Sundays to be worked?---Mm.
PN375
However, the retail - we will say the Retail Industry Award for now, does contain that limitation and you believe that that applies to you?---Yes.
PN376
Is there anything that you are aware of that would prohibit - stop you from working Sundays within any industrial instrument, not having regard to your personal preferences?---No, I would not work them.
PN377
No, no, I understand you wouldn't work, and I understand you don't want to work them?---There is no - no.
PN378
I understand you don't want to work them and I understand you won't work them, that is very clear. What I'm saying is, what are you saying to the Commission would be the thing that would stop you from working them, in other words, lawfully stop you from working them?---I don't believe there would be anything.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN379
May it please the Commission, those are my cross-examination.
PN380
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Ms Donaghy?
PN381
MS DONAGHY: No, I have no further questions.
PN382
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Teigesser, can I indicate to you what will happen now. I have a couple of questions for you and I will then extend to Ms Donaghy the opportunity to follow up all those issues, but those issues alone, and I will make a similar invitation to Mr Manuel and then we will let you go. If I understand the evidence you have given correctly it is to the effect that there are three issues which have been the source of some disputation over the past 3 or 4 months. They relate firstly to the withdrawal by Radio Rentals of its offer of voluntary redundancies?---Yes.
PN383
Secondly, there appears to be an issue relevant to the nature and character of the Ring and Rent work you are being asked to undertake?---Yes.
PN384
And specifically the extent to which that work is of a nature and character consistent with your credit acceptance work, is that correct?---Yes.
PN385
I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, so you will feel free - - -?---Yes.
PN386
- - - this is an occasion where you don't have to answer "yes" or "no"?---We consider that the Ring and Rent position is a call centre position where details and data is taken over the phone. I have been a credit acceptance consultant for almost 9 years, Michelle, 22, Pam, 19, and the others as well and I assess the credit worthiness of a customer applying for credit to Radio Rentals so as to minimise the financial risk to Radio Rentals group. I haven't applied for a call centre job and - this is definitely - - -
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN387
I see, no, that is all right?---So I don't consider it to be part of - of our acceptance duties, no.
PN388
Well, then the third area in dispute which I think is patently obvious relates to the roster that you are being asked to work?---Yes, it is.
PN389
Now, what would be your ideal solution to those three problems?---For myself?
PN390
Yes, well, you are the only one I'm asking?---The ideal solution I suppose firstly is to go back to being a credit acceptance clerk if that involves a redundancy, well and good. If it doesn't, well and good. I just want to get back to my normal duties.
PN391
Can I take it thought that what you are saying is that if you are able to reach an agreement with the employer as to a roster then you are prepared to forego both the issue associated with the redundancy and the concerns associated with the Ring and Rent work that you are being asked to do?---Yes.
PN392
Thank you. Now, Ms Donaghy, do my questions occasion you the need to ask the witness anything further?
PN393
MS DONAGHY: No, your Honour.
PN394
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Manuel?
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN395
MR MANUEL: Thank you, your Honour, one question. In terms of when you are carrying out the Ring and Rent function, isn't it also the case that you then carry out the credit function in respect of that application?---If you're quick enough. Most of the - most of the applications that are keyed in will actually go automatic except because of the way that the score card has been set up, because we do Ring and Rent one week and there are the other side of the - the office who are actually on the acceptance cue, by the time you tend to go through everything with the customer, get back to the salesman and all that sort of thing, somebody on the other side may have grabbed your application to assess it. So there is the option there, yes, to assess that application at the end of actually taking the Ring and Rent application from the customer.
PN396
Yes?---If it hasn't been (a) automatically approved, or (b) stolen from next door.
PN397
If it was automatically approved though - - -?---Yes.
PN398
- - - that wouldn't go to any credit acceptance person, would it?---No, it doesn't go to anybody it - it - - -
PN399
It is just - that is it?---It's straight - I just jump over to our - there's, we actually have two cues, one is an old cue where it actually lists the old way that we actually chose customers from the cue. We have a new cue now which is designed that once we take a person from that cue it actually immediately goes on to our own personal cue once we've keyed in our - our sign-on number. So you actually go to the old cue and you can see what's been accepted, what's been declined, what's under review at an instant. So I normally go over there and you can see that it's been accepted, it's just informing the salesperson to let the customer know that the account has been accepted or it can actually go automatically: declined, as well.
PN400
Thank you. Thank you, your Honour.
**** SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER XXN MR MANUEL
PN401
PN402
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I suspect Mr Manuel might want to extract back from you, his copy of the agreement. Ms Donaghy?
PN403
MS DONAGHY: Your Honour, I would now like to call Helen Clarke.
PN404
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps before we swear Ms Clarke in, can I work safely on the premise that we will be able to deal with her evidence in the next half hour or so?
PN405
MS DONAGHY: The evidence in-chief will probably take about 10 minutes.
PN406
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well.
PN407
MR MANUEL: I can't give you any undertaking that I will be finished with Ms Clarke by 3 o'clock, your Honour. I would hope to be but I can't give you any undertaking.
PN408
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Look, because I do have another commitment at 3 o'clock and it involves interstate parties, the options appear to be three-fold. Firstly, we could see how we go. Secondly, inherent in that first option is the possibility that Ms Clarke's evidence might be truncated which appears to be a less than desirable approach. Alternatively we could set another time now and have Ms Clarke's evidence at the commencement of that exterior time. It frankly appears to me to be a more logical approach.
PN409
MR MANUEL: I understand why Ms Donaghy would like to get the witness dealt with in the nicest possible way but I must admit that if we could find a good block of time to get the next three witnesses done and then close. That would be my preference.
PN410
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Ms Donaghy, have you got a view you want to express to me in this regard?
PN411
MS DONAGHY: Well, I know it would be the view of my witness that she very much would like to see it dealt with today.
PN412
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I could understand that. If I was Ms Clarke, I would be itching to have my evidence over and done with.
PN413
MS DONAGHY: But I also understand, you know, the Commission's view and I do think that it is undesirable if there is a break.
PN414
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You see, perhaps for Ms Clarke's information, the problem is Ms Clarke that if we get part way through your evidence, then we leave you in a state of suspended animation where who you can talk to is very strictly limited. That is probably a less than desirable circumstance from everybody's point of view. Do you have your diaries, Ms Donaghy and Mr Manuel. Are the parties available tomorrow morning at 10 am?
PN415
MS DONAGHY: I am, your Honour.
PN416
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, 10.30 I would say.
PN417
MS DONAGHY: Your Honour, could I just raise an issue? I was just speaking to Mr Ebert. Again, it is this difficulty of getting witnesses in from the workplace when it would be time for them. I believe I will need Ms Tikasa to stay with me to take instructions from her depending on what might arise during the hearing and Ms Clarke will be here. Mr Ebert informs me that we would then need an adjournment for her to get back to the office for the next witness.
PN418
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We could accommodate that tomorrow.
PN419
MR MANUEL: Yes, I'm available tomorrow, your Honour.
PN420
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Can I suggest then that we will commence tomorrow morning's hearing at 10.30, that we will receive Ms Clarke's evidence, adjourn for a short time to allow the next two witnesses to come in and I need to advise the parties that I will need to - leaving aside luncheon breaks and the like - I will need to adjourn the matter briefly at 2, just to deal with another matter but it won't be of any great duration at all. So that if necessary we can allocate almost all of tomorrow to the matter.
PN421
MR MANUEL: Subject to Ms Donaghy's views, your Honour, we are in a position I think to arrange for the witnesses to basically be in here for the start of proceedings.
PN422
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If you can do that between the two of you, that is fine. I won't exercise my mind on that rostering question at this stage. I shall leave it to the parties.
PN423
MR MANUEL: Thank you, your Honour.
PN424
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Clarke, I apologise that you are going to have to live another night in suspense before you tell us what you know but I think the solution we have come up is probably the more logical one in the circumstances. Very well, I will adjourn the matter on that basis.
ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 13 MAY 2003 [2.25pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
PAUL CAMERON ROBERTSON, AFFIRMED PN87
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MANUEL PN87
EXHIBIT #R1 STATEMENT OF PAUL ROBERTSON PN94
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DONAGHY PN96
WITNESS WITHDREW PN163
SHERYL MARY TEIGESSER, SWORN PN182
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DONAGHY PN182
EXHIBIT #ASU1 CREDIT ACCEPTANCE CLERK ROSTERS WEEK 3, WEEK 4, WEEK 5 AND WEEK 6 PN209
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANUEL PN235
WITNESS WITHDREW PN402
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