C2003/1576, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 2114 (3 June 2003)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 2684

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

VICE PRESIDENT ROSS

C2003/1576, 1577, 1578, 1579, 1580,
1581, 1582 and 1583

PLUMBING INDUSTRY (QLD AND
WA) AWARD 1999

PLUMBING INDUSTRY (NEW SOUTH
WALES) AWARD 1999

PLUMBING INDUSTRY (AUSTRALIAN
CAPITAL TERRITORY) AWARD 1999

PLUMBING TRADES (MIXED
INDUSTRY) AWARD 2000

THE SPRINKLER PIPE FITTERS'
AWARD 1998

PLUMBING INDUSTRY (VICTORIAN
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS,
INSTRUMENTALITIES AND PUBLIC
HOSPITALS) AWARD 2000

GASFITTERS (QUEENSLAND) AWARD 2000

PLUMBING TRADES (SOUTHERN STATES)
CONSTRUCTION AWARD 1999

Applications under section 113 of the Act
by the Communications, Electrical, Electronic,
Energy, Information, Postal, Plumbing and
Allied Services Union of Australia to vary the
above awards re safety net review decision of
May 2002

MELBOURNE

10.36 AM, THURSDAY, 15 MAY 2003

THIS HEARING WAS CONDUCTED BY VIDEO CONFERENCE AND RECORDED IN MELBOURNE

PN1

MR COONEY: Mr J. Cooney, appearing on behalf of the CEPU. With me is MR B. VAUGHAN.

PN2

MR C. HARNATH: I am from the Master Plumbers and Mechanical Services Association of Australia.

PN3

MR P. VERBERNE: I appear on behalf of the Air Conditioning and Mechanical Contractors Association.

PN4

MS C. COATE: I appear on behalf of the Fire Contractors Federation in matter C2003/1580.

PN5

THE VICE PRESIDENT: And in Sydney.

PN6

MR G. THOMPSON: I appear for the Master Builders Association of New South Wales.

PN7

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. All right. Mr Cooney, how do you want to deal with them?

PN8

MR HARNATH: Sorry, your Honour, if I could I also appear on behalf of CCIWA. I have a letter from the body, from Mr Dwyer - that is in the Queensland/WA Plumbers Award.

PN9

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. Mr Cooney.

PN10

MR COONEY: Yes, Commissioner, given past practice we would like to deal with each of the award variations individually. We would like to first start off with the Southern States award, given that it is parent award.

PN11

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN12

MR COONEY: To be followed by the Queensland and Western Australia award, then the New South Wales award, the ACT award, the Sprinkler Fitters award - - -

PN13

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right.

PN14

MR COONEY: In that order.

PN15

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN16

MR COONEY: Your Honour, the first one - Southern States award. This is an application under section 113 of the Act to vary the award with respect to expense related allowances. This is based on the relevant CPI increase for the June quarter of 2002 as prescribed by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. The union has served application or has served the application with the relevant attachments on to the Commission and the named respondents.

PN17

The union furnished the Commission with a draft order and statement of service wishes, but I should point out that there are certain amendments made to the Southern States. Item 12 and the one that - - -

PN18

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Yes.

PN19

MR COONEY: Item 12 should read, deleting from clause 22.4.2(a) the amount $16.10 and inserting - inserting 16.10, then "no change" after that.

PN20

At item 8 - - -

PN21

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, just a minute.

PN22

MR COONEY: Sorry.

PN23

THE VICE PRESIDENT: You are deleting $16.10 and inserting $16.10?

PN24

MR COONEY: Yes, but we just want to put after it, "no change" on the draft order.

PN25

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, why would I put anything in the order?

PN26

MR COONEY: Just - the reason we have done it - the parties have decided to do that, your Honour, is from year to year certain expense related allowances move and some don't. We would like to keep a draft order which has all those expense related allowances on the sheet.

PN27

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, okay.

PN28

MR COONEY: Item (a), appearing after item 13 should be, by deleting from clause 22.7.2 the amount 127.8 and $18.40, and inserting $130.70, and $18.80 respectively.

PN29

THE VICE PRESIDENT: And what are the amounts you are deleting - 127.80 and $18.40, is that right?

PN30

MR COONEY: That is correct, your Honour.

PN31

THE VICE PRESIDENT: And inserting?

PN32

MR COONEY: Inserting 130 - $130.70 and $18.80.

PN33

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Why do you have 8 after 13 - just out of interest?

PN34

MR COONEY: Yes, that would be a typographical error, your Honour.

PN35

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So that's 14 is it - and 9 is 15?

PN36

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN37

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. Any other changes?

PN38

MR COONEY: As your Honour just made aware, the item 9 appears after - that item should be item 15.

PN39

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN40

MR COONEY: As you have just stated, your Honour. Now there is one issue arising and this will affect three other of the award variations. It is relating to the camping allowance - - -

PN41

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Which is what clause?

PN42

MR COONEY: Which is clause 11 and 14 of the Southern States. The CPI, or we worked the calculations out on 2.8 per cent, you know, following the applications made by the CFMEU. That appears to be in error and the parties would like one week to tidy that up to see whether 2.3 per cent applies or 2.8 per cent applies.

PN43

THE VICE PRESIDENT: And that would affect clauses in your - in the order - which ones?

PN44

MR HARNATH: 14. 14.

PN45

MR COONEY: 11 and 14, your Honour.

PN46

MR HARNATH: No, only 14.

PN47

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay, so you want a week to check those. That's fine.

PN48

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN49

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. Thanks. Any opposition?

PN50

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, maybe I could address some of the issues that Mr Cooney has raised and be a bit more helpful for the Commission because I am afraid that the problems arose at last moment last evening. The issue that Mr Cooney is just commenting on, I wrote to Mr Cooney - about last evening and I tender that to the Commission - - -

PN51

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, no that's fine. But you are happy to have a week to consider it. Is that what you are - - - ?

PN52

MR HARNATH: Yes, your Honour, but in the context of the whole - of the whole document, which is the normal seven days checking period anyway, we are not seeking to delay and, your Honour we would take - - -

PN53

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well then, yes, it doesn't operate until when - what operative date are you seeking?

PN54

MR COONEY: 15 May, your Honour, today.

PN55

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, we would not oppose that date. That is on or after the first pay period from today. It is - it is really coming back to a - a matter that is laying behind this and might even go to an issue that CCIWA might be writing to the Commission about in regards to the National Building Award.

PN56

The letter I have just - just tendered to you goes to the CPI adjustments, and it is a historical process that the Commission will be aware of, and the process is a very, very confusing one and it would appear, for some reason, that the camping allowance movement, which Mr Cooney referred to at the amended variation number 14 in the document before you in the Southern States agreement - that's the - that's the point that he is referring to - that amount should actually be varied by 2.3 per cent, not 2.8 per cent. And the letter attempts to try and point in the direction of that, based on the - - -

PN57

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Has it traditionally been moved by having regard to the three indices you have referred to divided by three?

PN58

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, that is correct.

PN59

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN60

MR HARNATH: But the document itself, and this is part of the document - the bundles that were issued to the parties by the union, that is the Bureau of Statistics 641 0 [sic] for the annual movements. On the front page they all have to the nearest single digit after the decimal point.

PN61

The figures that Mr Maxwell's document, which was the basis we started with - well it actually went to three decimal places, and were based on indices that just do not appear in this document at all. So what I was trying to say to Mr Cooney in that letter, and this is also supported I might say by CCIWA - and I have spoken to NBA, New South Wales about it as well - what I was trying to say was that the front page of that document which is the accepted movements of CPI should in fact be the amounts - the basket if you like, in this case food, transport and meals, that make it up and divide by three should be the basis for the movement.

PN62

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well that isn't the basis in your letter. It is not food, transport and meals.

PN63

MR HARNATH: Sorry. Food, housing and transport. I do apologise, your Honour. Food, housing and transport, that is correct, yes. And I only became aware of this problem last evening. I have informed Mr Cooney, and that is why he is asking for the seven days on his behalf because he has only just been made aware of it.

PN64

Your Honour, this matter is one that it seems to us, on its face, to be based on the correct figures and I am also in a position to provide to the Commission today a corrected draft order which reflects - - -

PN65

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, you don't need to do that. I just need to know what the amounts are.

PN66

MR HARNATH: Yes. Yes, your Honour. The amounts are as set out in the document Mr Cooney just referred to. They are set out in paragraph - - -

PN67

THE VICE PRESIDENT: What is the new amount in paragraph 11?

PN68

MR HARNATH: Paragraph 14, now, your Honour.

PN69

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It is 14, not 11?

PN70

MR HARNATH: Yes. No, 14.

PN71

THE VICE PRESIDENT: There is nothing in 11?

PN72

MR HARNATH: No, that is a - that is not a matter relevant to my discussions. I am not sure what Mr Cooney was referring to there.

PN73

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN74

MR HARNATH: Paragraph 14, is the camping allowance in this document.

PN75

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, yes.

PN76

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, it is also true to say that it is a common - - -

PN77

THE VICE PRESIDENT: What are the amounts?

PN78

MR HARNATH: The amounts are exactly as Mr Cooney said. Sorry, he didn't say, did he. The amounts are moved to - from 127.80 and 18.40 to become 130.70 and $18.80.

PN79

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I am at a bit of a loss as to understand what you two are arguing about.

PN80

MR HARNATH: No, not - - -

PN81

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Cooney has already amended 14.

PN82

MR HARNATH: Yes.

PN83

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So that it reflects $130.70 and $18.80, and you are agreeing with that?

PN84

MR HARNATH: I am, your Honour.

PN85

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, okay. You don't need a week to sort that out, do you Mr Cooney?

PN86

MR COONEY: No, your Honour.

PN87

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, okay.

PN88

MR HARNATH: And, your Honour, I am in a position to provide a copy of the amended draft order - - -

PN89

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That is all right. I don't need one. We have got - - -

PN90

MR HARNATH: - - - which reflects that as well.

PN91

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, that is fine. It is a small change.

PN92

MR HARNATH: And just before I sit down, that will also run across the - - -

PN93

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That is fine.

PN94

MR HARNATH: - - - next two awards as well, your Honour.

PN95

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I thought it might. Yes.

PN96

MR HARNATH: Thank you.

PN97

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Verberne, have you any interest in this?

PN98

MR VERBERNE: No, your Honour, I am happy to agree to those changes at this stage. Thank you.

PN99

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Anybody else? No. Mr Cooney, I should indicate that VECCI hasn't received draft orders in relation to this award, or the Mixed Industries award. They haven't received draft orders in respect of 1579, 1583 or 1701, why is that?

PN100

MR COONEY: Your Honour, that would be - that would be an error on my behalf. I haven't been consulted by VECCI until now, your Honour.

PN101

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, can you undertake to provide them to Ms Whitecross today?

PN102

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN103

THE VICE PRESIDENT: And have a conversation with her and she should let me know if she has got any problems with those orders.

PN104

MR COONEY: Okay. Sorry, who was the relevant person there, your Honour?

PN105

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Janet Whitecross.

PN106

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN107

THE VICE PRESIDENT: And can you let my associate know later today, once you have had a chat with her and provided her with the draft orders. Okay. Well, if there is nothing further in relation to the Southern States Construction award I will grant the application in the terms sought, with the amendments identified. It will operate from the first pay period on or after today's date. The next matter is - - -

PN108

MR COONEY: Queensland and Western Australia, your Honour.

PN109

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN110

MR COONEY: Once again we would seek to vary this award under section 113 of the Act and with respect to expense related allowances and this is based on the CPI Australian Bureau of Statistics. We have served the relevant attachments on the Commission and the respondents. We just would like to add to item 9 of that order, at the end of it, "no change".

PN111

THE VICE PRESIDENT: $16.10 no change. Yes.

PN112

MR COONEY: Yes. Also, item 11 should read, by deleting from clause 22.7.2 the amount 127.8 and 18.40 and inserting 130.7 and 18.80. At the end of item 14 it should read, "no change".

PN113

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. It does.

PN114

MR COONEY: Good. Thank you, your Honour. Regarding to the camping issue on item 11, we would seek a week extension although, as your Honour pointed out, if with the Southern States, if we have got no issue on that as it is I will wait to see what the others - - -

PN115

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I can issue the order. If, after your discussions, there is a need for a correction I will do that. The camping allowance isn't something that is going to arise that frequently.

PN116

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN117

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay, yes?

PN118

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, maybe I should have said it for the first one, you did ask when Mr Cooney was on his feet initially about the note change. It is an approach that we have decided to take in assistance of all the parties, including the Commission, to try and eradicate the proliferation of correction orders, as the Commission would be aware. And that is, because, as Mr Cooney said - and sometimes CPI being negative, there is no movement and if you pick up the wrong order you leave out the one that might have moved next time. So it seems to be the best way possible.

PN119

Your Honour, we have no objection to the making of the order and in particular we do not oppose the operation date of 15 - on or after 15 May, and as the Commission is aware from the letter I have provided to you on behalf of CCIWA, that is their position. Once again, they have put a similar position along the lines that Mr Cooney and I did in the first matter as well. If the Commission pleases.

PN120

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I grant the application operative from 15 May. The next matter is 1577, the Plumbing Industry (New South Wales) Award. Mr Cooney?

PN121

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour, once again, we seek to vary this award with relation to expense related allowances under section 113 of the Act and this is in line with the June 2002 quarter CPI Australian Bureau of Statistics. Just - - -

PN122

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Is this one just the allowances or the rates?

PN123

MR COONEY: Sorry, the expense related allowances, your Honour.

PN124

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, I see, yes, okay. Any change in this one?

PN125

MR COONEY: The item 7 should add, at the end of it, "no change." Item - also at the end of items 4, 5, 6, 7 and 11, as with item 10, item 12 should read, but leading from clause 22.7.2(a), the amount 127.80 and 18.40 and inserting, 130.70 and 18.80 respectively. We also seek - well, regarding the matter of the camping allowance, if we can have time to consider that.

PN126

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I would issue the order - - -

PN127

MR COONEY: Yes.

PN128

THE VICE PRESIDENT: - - - and if there is a change you will let me know within seven days.

PN129

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN130

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any objection?

PN131

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, that last matter that Mr Cooney refers to is at paragraph 12 in the order, of course. Your Honour, I wonder if I could just ask if we could go off the record just for a very brief minute?

PN132

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.

PN133

MR HARNATH: I do apologise.

PN134

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I have got a stack of these to get through, Mr Harnath, what is it?

PN135

MR HARNATH: I understand.

OFF THE RECORD

PN136

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any objection to the application?

PN137

MR HARNATH: No, your Honour.

PN138

MR THOMAS: No, your Honour, no I agree with the draft, subject to Mr Harnath's remarks to you, with which I agree.

PN139

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. I will vary the award in terms of the amended draft order and it will operate from 15 May 2003. Next matter?

PN140

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour, the next matter is the Plumbing Trades (ACT) Award and once again we would seek to vary the award in line with section 113 of the Act in regard - - -

PN141

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any change to the draft order?

PN142

MR COONEY: No, your Honour.

PN143

THE VICE PRESIDENT: 15 May?

PN144

MR COONEY: Sorry, your Honour.

PN145

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Operative from 15 May?

PN146

MR COONEY: 15 May, yes, your Honour.

PN147

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. Any objection to the draft order?

PN148

MR HARNATH: No, your Honour.

PN149

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay, it is consistent with the approach you have taken with the others?

PN150

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour, exactly the same.

PN151

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I note there is correspondence from the ACT/CCI and the MBA of the ACT. Yes, you might want to talk to Mr Gillingham, he is not sure why we are putting in an order, a reference to something where there is no change. You might explain that to him. I grant the order in the terms sought. The next matter.

PN152

MR COONEY: The next matter is the Sprinklers Fitters Pipe Award, your Honour. Once again, we just again re-affirm our submissions in the previous matters regarding section 113 and the expense related allowances. We would - - -

PN153

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Thomas, can I encourage you not to rip that paper up near the microphone because we can't hear anything at this end.

PN154

MR THOMAS: I am sorry, your Honour, I shall desist.

PN155

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thanks.

PN156

MR COONEY: Your Honour, we have no change to that order and we would, subject to what other people of the bench may say, we will have it passed.

PN157

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Operative 15 May 2003, is that right?

PN158

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN159

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any objection? Yes?

PN160

MS COATE: I have no objection to the order being made and we have checked the figures and are quite happy for it to go forward in its current form.

PN161

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you Ms Coate. I will grant the application in the form sought, thank you. It will operate from 15 May. Next matter?

PN162

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour, the next one is C2003/1581 which is the Victorian Government Department Instrumentalities and Public Hospitals. I was speaking to Naomi Boyle who has forwarded a letter to the Commission yesterday - - -

PN163

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, indicating they have no objection to the - - -

PN164

MR COONEY: Yes, but we would still like a bit of time just to check the figures.

PN165

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, is it not your application?

PN166

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour - I mean, she has got no objection to the application or the operative date, but there are two issues on it that we need time to just - - -

PN167

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, that is fine.

PN168

MR COONEY: Yes.

PN169

THE VICE PRESIDENT: What are the issues?

PN170

MR COONEY: It relates to items 3 and 7 on the draft order. There is - in the draft order "7" should read "4" but - - -

PN171

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes and what is the problem?

PN172

MR COONEY: Just in regard to calculations, your Honour. I only spoke to her briefly yesterday.

PN173

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I might leave that one.

PN174

MR COONEY: She had - - -

PN175

THE VICE PRESIDENT: - - - until you have a discussion with her and if you could write and advise me if she consents to the rates in the award - - -

PN176

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN177

THE VICE PRESIDENT: - - - that you are proposing in the order. The next matter?

PN178

MR COONEY: Is the Mixed Industries, your Honour. Just in regard to that the change should be made in regard to item 8. It should read, $345.30" rather than "33 cents."

PN179

THE VICE PRESIDENT: $345.30, is it?

PN180

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour, I mean, it is rounded off to the nearest 10 cents by convention.

PN181

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN182

MR COONEY: We would like the operative date of that to be 15 May 2003, your Honour.

PN183

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any objection to that course?

PN184

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, we do not oppose that, however I would hand to the Commission a letter which referred to that and several other matters which lead to those corrections and hopefully that would assist in understanding what has just been said by Mr Cooney. If the Commission pleases.

PN185

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. No objection and I will grant the application in the terms sought. The Gasfitters (Queensland) Award?

PN186

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour, I have not heard any objection from that from the respondent organisations.

PN187

THE VICE PRESIDENT: And that is to operate from 15 May, is that right?

PN188

MR COONEY: 2003, yes, your Honour.

PN189

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any objection to that application? No, it is consistent with the others and the same methodology?

PN190

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN191

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay, I will grant the application in the terms sought and it will operate from 15 May. What is the next one you want to deal with?

PN192

MR COONEY: That is it, your Honour, I think that is the eight.

PN193

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We have got five other applications of yours, for some reason, Mr Cooney.

PN194

MR COONEY: Yes, I am at a loss to explain that, your Honour.

PN195

THE VICE PRESIDENT: They might have just been lodged twice or there has been some - it looks like these were all lodged on 3 April. What I might do is - it seems that they overlap but I will give them to you to have a look at.

PN196

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, that was probably the nature of my question before, off the record, I think that was the confusion I had as well.

PN197

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are these safety net applications? I don't think because they are dated 3 April, so they are not applications for the 2003 adjustment, obviously. Anyway, we will let you have a look at those, why don't we do that.

PN198

MR COONEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN199

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Cooney, what I would like yourself and Mr Harnath to do is to forward a list of the relevant plumbing awards with the award codes and that would normally be adjusted in a block for the safety net adjustment. Also if you can provide me with the key classification rate for the purpose of - do you do work-related allowances at the same time as safety net adjustments?

PN200

MR HARNATH: Yes, your Honour, yes.

PN201

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay, you supply the key classification rate as well, then consistent with - to avoid the problems we got into last year I will draft orders in relation to each of them and convene a conference of the interested parties and you can provide me with a list of the interested parties also and I will circulate the draft orders in advance of that. I think we have got until, what, August some time, is that - - -

PN202

MR HARNATH: 29th.

PN203

THE VICE PRESIDENT: 29 August, yes, I will make sure it is done within the next three to four weeks.

PN204

MR HARNATH: Your Honour, we would find that a very acceptable approach, given the confusion that has occurred in the past. Can I say that, probably, within the week I would be able to supply the Commission with the calculations - Excel spreadsheet calculations - - -

PN205

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, I am going to do the calculation.

PN206

MR HARNATH: - - - that would maybe be the basis of that as well.

PN207

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, I am going to do the calculations myself.

PN208

MR HARNATH: I understand.

PN209

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All I want is the key classification that you have agreed on in years past and the - by all means, set out what you think the percentage adjustment should then be and I will go over the draft orders and - - -

PN210

MR HARNATH: Yes, yes.

PN211

THE VICE PRESIDENT: - - - calculate it myself and then circulate it.

PN212

MR HARNATH: Yes, your Honour, I was not in any way trying to question the process that you are putting.

PN213

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, no, that is fine.

PN214

MR HARNATH: However, the concern I have in it, is that there are - and part of the confusion of the past, has been the rounding off problem of the nearest cent to the nearest five cents, the nearest 10 cents, etcetera. And because that is all focused within the sheets - - -

PN215

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That is fine.

PN216

MR HARNATH: - - - that may assist, that is all I am saying.

PN217

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, no, that is fine. Can I suggest you do this. What I just want from you is what the principles are that are agreed between the parties.

PN218

MR HARNATH: Yes.

PN219

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Where have rounding off agreements, then set those out, where you have a key classification, set that out, and by all means, work out the percentage and reach an agreement on that. Once you have done that it seems to me the problem always is in the detail. I am happy to take care of the detail, at least in draft form, but if you can set out what the agreements are that stand behind the orders, then - and at this stage it need only be your two organisations and that is not intended to bind anyone.

PN220

Draft orders can be prepared on the basis of those agreements and everyone will have an opportunity to say whatever they wish about those draft orders, okay. It is just that that might be a quicker process than trying to get agreement from everyone as to whether or not we round off to the nearest cent or five cents, okay. Are you clear about what is required, Mr Cooney?

PN221

MR COONEY: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN222

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay, nothing further? All right, thanks for your attendance, I will adjourn.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.03am]