C2003/1612, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 2381 (17 June 2003)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 7, ANZ House 13 Grenfell St ADELAIDE SA 5000
Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

DEPUTY PRESIDENT HAMPTON

C2003/1612

NATIONAL TERTIARY EDUCATION INDUSTRY UNION

and

FLINDERS UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re wages and conditions

C2003/1613

NATIONAL TERTIARY EDUCATION INDUSTRY UNION
AND ANOTHER

and

THE UNIVERSITY OF ADELAIDE

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re wages and conditions

C2003/1748

AUSTRALIAN SALARIED MEDICAL OFFICERS FEDERATION

and

THE UNIVERSITY OF ADELAIDE

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re wages and conditions

C2003/1749

AUSTRALIAN SALARIED MEDICAL OFFICERS FEDERATION
AND ANOTHER

and

FLINDERS UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re wages and conditions

ADELAIDE

9.05 AM, THURSDAY, 29 MAY 2003

Continued from 5.5.03

PN144

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, good morning all. For the record I should indicate that following the last proceedings in these matters I did pursue certain recommendations. I have also received, not necessarily in this order but perhaps in the order that they were exchanged between the parties copies of a without prejudice proposal as made by the two unions to the two universities dated 13 May.

PN145

Subsequent to that a letter from Flinders University but on behalf of the two universities to both unions dated 22 May 2003 and lastly correspondence from the NTEIU on behalf of the two unions to the two universities dated 26 May and I have obviously noted that material. Perhaps in that context I will invite one of the parties to outline what they say is the current state of play and how we might advance matters.

PN146

MR KILDARE: I've drawn the short straw again, sir.

PN147

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Kildare.

PN148

MR KILDARE: Thank you for just outlining what you have received because I was actually going to - I probably will mention them but - - -

PN149

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is fine.

PN150

MR KILDARE: On behalf of The University of Adelaide perhaps if I could just give you a brief outline of what we have - where we have gone in line with those directions at that last hearing. Since that hearing and in line with the directions, as you have just mentioned, the union has provided us with a proposal on the interim arrangements for the clinical academics and that proposal contained basically three elements, if I could just characterise them in this way: (a) a max salary rate as we saw it; (b) an effective date of remuneration and (c) a review of interim arrangements within a week of the enterprise bargaining agreement that is currently being negotiated between DHS and SASMOA for the DHS medical officers, within a week of that being certified in the Commission.

PN151

So when we got that we looked at it and just in order to establish a better informed position for ourselves before discussing that proposal with DHS we sought in that letter which you mentioned which we sent to Ms Harrington on behalf of the universities on 22 May we sought a more comprehensive justification of the max salary rates and we were also concerned that the unions had requested a retrospective date of effect for an interim arrangement. We held the view, and I guess we still do, that if any interim arrangement is agreed between the parties then any salary payment should be from the date of reaching that agreement.

PN152

There was also the view, the third point, I guess, that the issue of retrospectivity - this is universities, sorry - it was our view that the issue of retrospectivity should not be addressed in any interim arrangement. Ms Harrington on behalf of the unions on 26 May responded by saying that in relation to those points we wanted to clarify the basis of the union claim was to reflect the status quo in relation to the parity arrangement which is contained in the Universities and Teaching Hospitals Agreement.

PN153

She further added that the unions have effectively upgraded item 10 of the existing Teaching Hospitals Agreement. Now, that goes to clause, I think and I might stand corrected here, I think I said clause 7.1.3 and item 7 and I think that is schedule 7, but I think my colleagues will probably want to go to that one in a little bit more detail. In fact that provided the method of calculation for their claim. They also felt that by going down this path the areas of disagreement between the parties would be reduced and also that strict legal rules not apply in the settlement of the nature.

PN154

Further to that on 27 May which is 2 days ago, and I would have to say due to - and we have talked about this in this hearing before, sir - respective people's availability, if you like, at certain levels. The first available date that we are able to get the parties together in terms of the universities and the DHS was 27 May and we met to discuss the position put by the unions. We asked DHS at that meeting, as a matter of extreme urgency, for a response as soon as possible given the timing of today's hearing.

PN155

I would have to say - I don't have to say but I'm going to say that as late as 1714 - now I think from my old Army days that tells me it was about 14 minutes past 5 yesterday afternoon we got an email - Mr Daysh, my manager, got an email from DHS indicating that they are more than willing to consider any proposals that we have in relation to the Teaching Hospitals Agreement as they pertain to the universities and accordingly they are going to check their diaries as a matter of urgency and propose a meeting at the earliest mutual convenient time next week, the week starting I think 2 June.

PN156

At the meeting with had with the DHS and in our quest to progress this matter urgently in line with where we all want to go, we floated a number of possible options and perhaps I would seek the indulgence of the Commission to probably pursue those a bit later on, sir, in some detail because I think some of them are of such a nature that I don't have specific instructions to put those on transcript and I think, as I said, the nature of some of them would be that it would be best addressed between the parties in conference with you.

PN157

I think just to really put our position is that only what I have just said there, that we have sought a meeting and that meeting has been agreed, we just don't know the time yet. In summary, and I can talk for The University of Adelaide, we believe whilst it is slow and I'm sure much too slow for my colleagues, we believe fervently that we have made some progress in terms of some of the things that we have got DHS to agree to. We believe that there has been progress down the path and we feel confident, as confident as one can be in these matters, that we will, without making any promises, we will be able to progress the matter a little bit further next week. I probably could leave it at that at this stage, I think, unless you have any questions obviously.

PN158

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will just press one point of clarification. You said in relation to the date of operation your indication is that it shouldn't be addressed in any interim arrangement. Do you mean by that that it shouldn't be addressed at all or that it just shouldn't be addressed in an interim arrangement?

PN159

MR KILDARE: No, I didn't say that, sir, but in terms of the retrospective date of operation we are suggesting that that shouldn't be addressed in any interim arrangement.

PN160

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Would that then be reviewed in any permanent arrangement?

PN161

MR KILDARE: That is something that we would be discussing. I have no instructions to tell you definitely that it would be but - - -

PN162

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Thank you. Ms Solomon, is there anything you wanted to add?

PN163

MS SOLOMON: Sir, no, the Flinders University has been involved in all these discussions as well so I won't anything further at this stage.

PN164

MR KILDARE: I've just got some late breaking news, sir.

PN165

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN166

MR KILDARE: We are happy to let you know that we will be strenuously pursuing the retrospectivity issue.

PN167

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: By that you mean in terms of your contractual relationships with the department, presumably then any flow-on consequences.

PN168

MR KILDARE: Yes.

PN169

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thank you. Yes, Mr Grimes?

PN170

MR GRIMES: Yes, thank you, sir. I suppose those of us at this end of the table sit here with almost a sense of inevitability about all of this. These proceedings have been before you, sir, since April and today slightly breathlessly, I think, it has been announced that there will now be a meeting, there will now be a meeting between the universities and DHS. It has taken us some 2 months of this matter being before this Commission for it now to be announced that there will be a meeting between some other parties. Quite frankly, sir, this sounds to us very much like the story that we've lived for the past 5 years. There's always some hope a little bit further down the track but just not yet.

PN171

So I feel that I need to make that comment that it - whilst we are told to be hopeful, past records of these things coming will not come into pass. It does not give us a great deal of confidence. However, as has been said this morning, there has been some movement in the discussions between DHS and the universities and the suggestion has been made that it might be appropriate for us to go into conference to discuss those. From the point of view of the unions we would be pleased to do that because we would be very keen to hear of any progress that has been made over and above "there is going to be a meeting at some time in the next week" and it might be appropriate, sir, if you consider it wise, to go into conference now to allow those matters to be put before us and before yourself before we take it any further.

PN172

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Harrington, do you want to add anything?

PN173

MS HARRINGTON: No, sir.

PN174

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Then in the circumstances I will adopt the concept now raised by both parties and adjourn these proceedings into conference.

OFF THE RECORD

PN175

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The matter will resume at 9 am on 11 June.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 11 JUNE 2003 [10.25am]