C2003/3808, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 2426 (17 June 2003)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 60-70 Elizabeth St SYDNEY NSW 2000
DX1344 Sydney Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER LAWSON

C2003/3808

AUSTRALIAN LIQUOR, HOSPITALITY
AND MISCELLANEOUS WORKERS UNION

and

STAR CITY PTY LTD

Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re proposed introduction of the
Handypay procedure for the VIP Slots Room

SYDNEY

11.04 AM, FRIDAY, 30 MAY 2003

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Appearances, please?

PN2

MS S. BRAVINI: Ms S. Bravini, industrial officer, appearing on behalf of the Australian Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union, New South Wales Branch. Also appearing with me are MR B. DONNELLY and MS R. RILEY, union officials who are in close contact with the workplace.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Bravini.

PN4

MS S. HAYNES: If the Commission pleases, Ms S. Haynes, and I appear for Star City. I am the employee relations manager. With me I have MR L. EDGE, who is the electronic gaming manager, MR S. DOOLEY, who is the electronic gaming operations manager, and MS S. IBRAHIM who is the HR co-ordinator for the electronic gaming area.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, Ms Haynes. The matter before the Commission is a section 99 dispute notification filed by the ALHMWU to notify the Industrial Registrar of an alleged industrial dispute between the union and the employer, Star City Proprietary Limited, and the matter is said to concern the alleged failure by the employer to consider safety risks for employees in certain circumstances. Ms Bravini, it is your notification. What do you have to say about it?

PN6

MS BRAVINI: Commissioner, under section 99, the New South Wales Branch of the Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union - - -

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bravini, get one thing clear: I don't recognise the New South Wales Branch. There is a registered federal union called the ALHMWU, you are here representing that - - -

PN8

MS BRAVINI: Yes.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - that body, okay.

PN10

MS BRAVINI: Sorry, Commissioner. Under 99 - pursuant to 99 - section 99 of the Workplace Relations Act (1996), the Australian Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union, New South Wales Branch, notified the Australian Industrial Relations Commission on 28 May 2003 of an industrial dispute between staff at Star City Casino and the management of Star City Casino. And pursuant to section 100 of the Workplace Relations Act (1996), an early conciliation date was requested, as the procedure which is in dispute is due to commence in the VIP Slots Room of Star City Casino on Monday, 2 June 2003.

PN11

Briefly - but I will be going into more detail in a moment - the new system which is to be introduced in the VIP Slots Room would require staff to bring a patron's winnings to that patron directly rather than a patron collecting their winnings from a cashier behind a caged booth. It is the union's view that this system would pose a direct and immediate threat to the safety of the staff who will be working in this VIP Slots Room, and such safety concerns haven't been dealt with in this procedure which is about to commence on Monday, hence our - - -

PN12

THE COMMISSIONER: On what basis do you say safety procedures have not been dealt with?

PN13

MS BRAVINI: Okay. Specifically, the new Handypay procedure - in regards to the premises in which this procedure will be working in, the VIP Slots Room, with regards to the security, it is anticipated that - it is considered to be a special facility, meaning that the only patrons allowed in will be Gold Card holders, or Platinum Card holders, which is meant to keep the patrons of this particular room of a high calibre. In order to get such a card, you would have to produce 100 points of identification. Essentially, anyone who is of the general public could produce such points of identification, because it would usually require just merely a driver's licence and a bank card or a key card. So it would not prevent would-be thieves, because also would-be thieves would presumably have these sorts of identification.

PN14

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, have all of these matters - or these potential grievances been taken up with the employer in accordance with the dispute settling procedure?

PN15

MS BRAVINI: Yes, we have. We have tried to have a number of consultations with the union - with the - - -

PN16

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, tell me about those consultations, will you?

PN17

MS BRAVINI: - - - Star City Casino. May I confer with my colleagues prior to - - -

PN18

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, there is a dispute settling procedure in the relevant certified agreement, and it requires at least three steps to have been followed before either party refers the matter here. I would like you to tell me what steps - precisely what steps have been taken, following the disputes and grievance procedure, before the matter was filed by the union two days ago seeking an urgent hearing.

PN19

MS BRAVINI: Okay. May I just confer with my colleagues for just one moment, please?

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN21

MS BRAVINI: Commissioner?

PN22

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?

PN23

MS BRAVINI: We - the main officer who has been working with the - with Star City, who is Phil Taylor, isn't available today. But I have got copies of numerous e-mails which he has sent and a number of consultations in regards to the dispute settling procedure in clause 25 of the agreement.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: Clause 25 of the agreement. You're reading a different agreement to mine. It's clause 9 in the agreement that I have, and it is an agreement that I certified - - -

PN25

MS BRAVINI: Well, we - - -

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - on 4 October 2002. This is a disputes and grievance procedure in the Star City Enterprise Agreement 2002.

PN27

MS BRAVINI: I'm sorry, I was referring to the introduction of change, which is clause 25, which was a duty to notify.

PN28

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you haven't notified that. This is notified under section 99. I have asked you about the grievance procedure. Has it been followed in respect of this grievance before the matter was referred here?

PN29

MS BRAVINI: The union has followed the grievance procedure. We have numerous meetings - - -

PN30

THE COMMISSIONER: And I have asked you to detail for me what has happened.

PN31

MS BRAVINI: Phil Taylor, our official, has had numerous meetings with the staff at Star City, which - - -

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, where is Mr Taylor today?

PN33

MS BRAVINI: Mr Taylor is on leave and we are unable to call him, hence why - because we have this procedure starting on Monday, we have called an early conciliation.

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, when did Mr Taylor commence his discussions with the employer about these alleged procedures?

PN35

MS BRAVINI: I believe beginning of April. There were small details that were coming through at that stage. We didn't have proper, fruitful discussions until May, which culminated in letters being sent and e-mails being sent between the union's officials and Star City.

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, now bring me up to date with precisely what has been dealt with in the discussions between the union officials and management representatives of Star City.

PN37

MS BRAVINI: As of 5 May, we were notified by the Star City staff - management, sorry - that they intended to go through with the proposed hand through procedure - hand paid procedures in terms of that they were saying the safety wouldn't be a concern, because they were going to be escorting - our staff were going to be escorted if it was over a certain - certain amount.

PN38

THE COMMISSIONER: When you say "our staff," you're talking about what, gaming room staff?

PN39

MS BRAVINI: Gaming room staff were going to be escorted - - -

PN40

THE COMMISSIONER: By whom?

PN41

MS BRAVINI: By a senior - - -

PN42

THE COMMISSIONER: Security staff?

PN43

MS BRAVINI: No, by another supervisor.

PN44

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. What, whilst they carry - - -

PN45

MS BRAVINI: While they carry - - -

PN46

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - physically carry money from point A to point B inside the VIP room?

PN47

MS BRAVINI: Over $2000. If it was under $2000 it was just going to be a single staff person carrying the amount. Phil Taylor then raised with the management through numerous e-mails that this was a safety concern, that numerous members were concerned not only with carrying the money, but that they needed to be trained in security issues, and we requested that further details be given of the exact procedures involved in carrying such money.

PN48

THE COMMISSIONER: With very great respect, why are you telling me all of this? This is a procedural issue; it's an operational procedure issue. It's not an industrial dispute, is it?

PN49

MS BRAVINI: Well, it is an industrial dispute, because it is an occupational health and safety risk, and under - - -

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if it is an occupational health and safety matter, report to WorkCover.

PN51

MS BRAVINI: We have had inspections by WorkCover, and WorkCover have inspected a room which is currently not fitted out and will not be fitted out until the end of the weekend, and this procedure is commenced to start on Monday. That is exactly - our concern is that how can an inspection take place - - -

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, do you have evidence from WorkCover of their examination to tell me that it is unsafe?

PN53

MS BRAVINI: Our union official has gone through outside yesterday with a WorkCover - with WorkCover officials to have an inspection with the management of Star City, and these concerns were raised again yesterday - as recently as yesterday afternoon.

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: So you say WorkCover inspected the site yesterday?

PN55

MS BRAVINI: That's right. And a risk assessment has been undertaken by Star City themselves, as being considered to be - this type of procedure, in terms of potential assaults on the staff, to be of a medium risk. So it's not of a small risk that we are talking about now.

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: Has WorkCover also done a risk assessment?

PN57

MS BRAVINI: I don't believe so, because the inspection only took place yesterday, although they had been notified on earlier occasions to go out and inspect the site and have not done so prior to that point.

PN58

THE COMMISSIONER: And you say that management has assessed the risk as - - -

PN59

MS BRAVINI: A medium risk.

PN60

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - medium?

PN61

MS BRAVINI: Yes.

PN62

THE COMMISSIONER: What does that mean?

PN63

MS BRAVINI: I have the report with me, Commissioner. The report means that - - -

PN64

THE COMMISSIONER: Don't give me the report. Just - - -

PN65

MS BRAVINI: I wasn't about to hand it up.

PN66

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm trying to put things in perspective.

PN67

MS BRAVINI: Yes.

PN68

THE COMMISSIONER: What you say is medium - - -

PN69

MS BRAVINI: Medium - - -

PN70

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - I would have no idea what that means.

PN71

MS BRAVINI: That's exactly right. I was about to explain that medium - medium risk means that it is a medium consequence of a threat to that person, meaning that it's - medical treatment would be required of an injury that would be occurring on the site contained with outside assistance, Meaning that outside assistance such as a first aid officer would be required on the scene and it would be of a high financial loss to the employer if this injury occurred. That it was a possible likelihood of this occurring, meant that it might occur at some stage.

PN72

THE COMMISSIONER: Is your concern that members of yours, employees of the employer are going to be asked to carry out what you believe is an unsafe act?

PN73

MS BRAVINI: That's right. That's exactly right. They have expressed - - -

PN74

THE COMMISSIONER: With very great respect, that has got nothing to do with the Industrial Relations Commission. That is a WorkCover matter.

PN75

MS BRAVINI: It is also under section 97. You have the jurisdiction to take into account the laws of State and one such law would be the Occupational Health and Safety Act 2000 in which there is a duty on the employer, i.e. Star City to make sure that their premises are safe and that their systems of work are safe and that is a duty that is considered to be without any limit. There is a substantial risk that if staff are not appropriately trained to handle this safety issue, that they will be put at risk as soon as Monday. Essentially these are hospitality staff. There are people who are in the service industry and are not in the security industry or not capable of handling such large amounts of money. $2000 is a large amount of money.

PN76

The Electronic Game Unit management also has a policy right now, with regards to refilling slot machines where they require that their staff only carry on them $1500 in coins to refill slot machines. This new procedure would be going above this amount and would require staff to carry this sort of money on hand. That is a direct threat to our staff and the members have notified the union that they are scared now, of this.

PN77

THE COMMISSIONER: What's the different risk factor in under or over $2000, a person carrying under or over $2000?

PN78

MS BRAVINI: There is no difference, hence why we are asking under section 111, that the Commission give a direction to Star City that this procedure not take place because any sort of money would be a risk to the safety of our staff to carry around. It is a different procedure to what is currently occurring. What is currently occurring is that patrons who win are given a voucher and take that voucher to a cashier in a caged booth. The cashier is trained to handle that money and the cashier is also safe themselves in a caged booth.

PN79

You are now requiring staff to go through a room which is actually a very small room and required to carry up to $2000, numerous winnings, not necessarily one patron at a time and walk through rows which are very difficult to see to carry this money to a particular patron.

PN80

THE COMMISSIONER: You said it was a small room?

PN81

MS BRAVINI: It is a fairly small room.

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: How many poker machines in the room?

PN83

MS BRAVINI: 160 slot machines. Also, we understood that there is only one security guard that has been committed to this room who will be standing at the door and that will only be during peak evening hours. Star City conceded yesterday to, while the WorkCover inspection was taking place, that they have had to hire another 27 security guards throughout the whole patrol of the casino because security has been an issue in that area.

PN84

THE COMMISSIONER: What are you implying in that?

PN85

MS BRAVINI: That there is obviously a problem with security in the Casino as a whole and this will also trickle into the fact of this room, if it is not properly patrolled by security guards, will have the effect of directly threatening the safety of the employees on the premises.

PN86

THE COMMISSIONER: So, if a patron has $200,000 in their pocket, you really don't care less about them.

PN87

MS BRAVINI: Absolutely, no, under the Occupational Health and Safety Act the employer has a duty to all people who visit that work site to ensure their safety as well. We concede absolutely that this will be a threat to the patrons as well.

PN88

THE COMMISSIONER: I can hear you and you are repeating that this is an occupational health and safety matter. I don't see that it is an industrial matter.

PN89

MS BRAVINI: It's a dispute because management have failed to take into account the concerns of the members of the staff.

PN90

THE COMMISSIONER: That's your view. I haven't heard what management has got to say but perhaps they do have another view and I am certainly listening to your view and it is a contention because there is no material to support your contentions that this is an unsafe act. Now, if WorkCover was here to give me some sort of independent third party assessment of the risk, I would give more weight to what you are saying.

PN91

MS BRAVINI: Right. But the fact that Star City have conceded in their own risk assessment that it is of a medium risk should also be of concern to this Commission that people will now be in - - -

PN92

THE COMMISSIONER: Of course it is a concern to this Commission but again, relatively speaking, I don't know what that means. You have given me your view, your definition of it.

PN93

MS BRAVINI: No, I haven't. I have given the Star City's definition in their report. That was not my definition of that.

PN94

THE COMMISSIONER: And how does that risk assessment relate to any other work done by employees in the room?

PN95

MS BRAVINI: Well, essentially, the employees in the room are hospitality staff which means that they just carry around drinks and take orders. Now they are being required to have additional duties in terms of cash handling. A number of the staff have made comments that they are now worried about that because not only is it a threat in terms of people seeing them hold cash but also now they are required to be responsible for counting out appropriate winnings to patrons, when patrons request their winnings and that they are now accountable for handling cash which was not part of the original duties of the staff.

PN96

THE COMMISSIONER: Are they regraded because of these additional duties they carry?

PN97

MS BRAVINI: No, there has not been a regrading. There has just been a retraining, which is also another concern to the union that if they are required to undertake training and their duties have changed significantly that there be a reclassification of these employees.

PN98

THE COMMISSIONER: It might well be that a whole range of other duties are not being undertaken. So on balance, you have to apply the objective work value system before you can assert that it automatically attracts a higher classification.

PN99

MS BRAVINI: Yes.

PN100

THE COMMISSIONER: What is it you are seeking from this section 99 dispute notification, Ms Bravini?

PN101

MS BRAVINI: We are seeking a direction that Star City be prevented from implementing this procedure on Monday until further discussions can take place and further consultations take place with the union as to an alternative means of servicing this room.

PN102

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Is there anything further you want to put to me at this time?

PN103

MS BRAVINI: No, Commissioner.

PN104

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you, Ms Bravini. Well, Ms Haynes what is the other side of the story?

PN105

MS HAYNES: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. Firstly, in respect of the grievance procedure, it will be Star City's contention that the union has not completed all the steps in the grievance procedure. In particular, point three which is essentially to involve the divisional general manager and/or the divisional HR manager.

PN106

THE COMMISSIONER: What have you done to engage the divisional general manager in discussions with the union if this matter has been festering for some time?

PN107

MS HAYNES: Yes, we actually had our divisional general manager from Electronic Gaming at the WorkCover meeting yesterday which was called by the union. The reason WorkCover would not actually do a proper risk assessment on the site yesterday was because the union had notified a dispute and apparently they have an internal control with WorkCover that once a dispute has been lodged in the Industrial Commission, they step back until such time as the Commission either requests our involvement or maybe directs the parties to involve WorkCover.

PN108

We have actually sent WorkCover our own risk assessment that was done by our OHS manager a week ago. Their response to that was that it was sound. Certainly as far as they were concerned, without coming and seeing the site, it was a relevant risk assessment.

PN109

THE COMMISSIONER: Did you say that Mr Edwards was the divisional general manager?

PN110

MS HAYNES: No, I don't have the divisional manager.

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: Is Mr Dooley the divisional general manager?

PN112

MS HAYNES: No, no.

PN113

THE COMMISSIONER: It would have helped if you had brought the divisional general manager with you today then you could have a discussion with the union.

PN114

MS HAYNES: Well, we could do that.

PN115

THE COMMISSIONER: I am not here to hold everybody's hands.

PN116

MS HAYNES: Yes, Commissioner.

PN117

THE COMMISSIONER: I am here to give you an opportunity to resolve these matters by following your own disputes procedure.

PN118

MS HAYNES: Yes. Commissioner, we have been in this discussion with the union since April. Their original officer who has been dealing with this particular issue, which as far as Star City was concerned was going along and was, according to their research officer, the risk assessment was the final thing that needed to be done before we all proceeded forward with this particular issue.

PN119

THE COMMISSIONER: And who is this person?

PN120

MS HAYNES: This is Phil Taylor who is on annual leave this week.

PN121

THE COMMISSIONER: This is the missing Mr Taylor, right.

PN122

MS HAYNES: Yes. We, up until last Friday, as far as we were concerned, we didn't even know Phil Taylor was going on annual leave this week, so when Ms Ibrahim called him on Monday to find out what the union's response was to the risk assessment, we have a message on his mobile phone saying that he is on annual leave this week and would not be due back until 2 June. We then contacted Mr Donnelly from the union and before we know it we suddenly have a dispute notification on our desk with the matter being listed before yourself today.

PN123

As far as Star City was concerned, we have been addressing all of the issues that the union has raised. We have been backwards and forwards with all sorts of - and I can go into great detail about what the room is like, and what the actual procedure is about. One thing that my colleague here keeps missing in terms of the risk assessment, that there might be in - what she is referring to in terms of medium risk is the consequence that it might have. What she has not referred to is the likelihood of that particular risk actually occurring.

PN124

So in terms of the risk assessment; the risk assessment actually states that the likelihood of anything occurring would be rare, which might only occur in exceptional circumstances, or unlikely and could occur at some time. So there is two parts to a risk assessment which talks about likelihood and consequence. Now - - -

PN125

THE COMMISSIONER: But you don't deny that the company's own risk assessment is that it is a medium risk assessment.

PN126

MS HAYNES: There is a medium risk with a - - -

PN127

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, is that on a scale of low, medium and a high?

PN128

MS HAYNES: No, it is on an insignificant, minor, medium, major catastrophic.

PN129

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. So where does it sit on that scale?

PN130

MS HAYNES: Which is the normal standard risk assessment process.

PN131

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry. Where does it sit on the scale?

PN132

MS HAYNES: It sits in the middle, and it is minor to medium. It is not just medium. And medium in terms of what we are talking about here, is medical treatment required not high financial loss. That would be in relation to say an IT type issue, or something like that, which would refer - - -

PN133

THE COMMISSIONER: How does the word of medium risk assessment relate to employees' safety? What specifically is the component of employee safety - - -

PN134

MS HAYNES: What it relates to - the risk assessment has come out in terms of minor and unlikely, or rare to happen, so it is a low risk, and in some cases a medium and unlikely or rare, which is a medium risk. So what that essentially means that it may only occur in exceptional circumstances, or it could occur at some time. So in terms of likelihood of it happening, and in terms of the significance of it, minor is first-aid treatment which would be done by our own medics, or secondly, medium being medical treatment required, which would mean you would go off site to a hospital.

PN135

But that is what it means. And it has been assessed as not happening on a very rare or unlikely occasion. And that is what you have to look at as well as that part of it. Now, this is not a new thing to this industry. There are other casinos in Australia who do it.

PN136

THE COMMISSIONER: It might not be new to this industry, but it would appear on the face of what I have heard so far that it is new to this group of employees.

PN137

MS HAYNES: It is, yes.

PN138

THE COMMISSIONER: And then that raises the question of how have they been properly prepared to take on changed duties.

PN139

MS HAYNES: Commissioner, they have undertaken extensive training. That is why I have Mr Dooley with me today, because he has been conducting the training over the last week. They have all been trained in the actual procedure. They have been trained in hold-up procedure, which they are trained in - the employees we are talking about are level 4 employees under our enterprise agreement, who currently have cashiering duties in our TAB or Keno outlet area. The people who are level 4 in the past used to do our coin booth, which they do not do any more. They used to have a float of $100,000 that they had to look after.

PN140

THE COMMISSIONER: But they are experienced cashiers?

PN141

MS HAYNES: They are experienced cashiers.

PN142

THE COMMISSIONER: So it is not the drinks waiter - - -

PN143

MS HAYNES: No - - -

PN144

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - who is all of a sudden going to have - - -

PN145

MS HAYNES: - - - it is not the drink's waiter.

PN146

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - $2000 thrust in their hand - - -

PN147

MS HAYNES: That is right.

PN148

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - and be told to bring it out to a patron?

PN149

MS HAYNES: That is correct. The only ones who are doing this are our electronic gaming reps who are currently level 4, who currently handle cash. So it is not a new thing for these people to do. They have in the past have had floats, they are used to handling money. The only difference is what we are asking them to do, instead of writing a voucher out in a very confined space, in a room that when you enter it, and I might just correct my colleague too in terms of a gold or platinum card member; you just do not come along with 100 points and say, "Hey, I want to be a gold or platinum card member."

PN150

It means that you are one of our premium players. You have been playing at the casino for a period of time. You are one of our higher end players. Obviously you spend money there, and those people are the ones that are asked to become, or are elevated to gold or platinum members. It is like a frequent flier kind of club if you are using that analogy in terms of levels.

PN151

THE COMMISSIONER: My only real concern is the security of the area, and the security of the patrons - - -

PN152

MS HAYNES: That is what I am - - -

PN153

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - and the security of employees.

PN154

MS HAYNES: That is what I am coming to. The issue is is that when they are issued these cards, the only way you can enter this VIP room is to show that card. We know who these people are. We know everyone that walks through those doors, as we do in our Endeavour Room, which is the table games VIP room. They have a card. They have been well known to the casino. If they can bring one guest in with them only, that guest must produce identification which we note, and then they are allowed into this room. There is a hostess sitting there.

PN155

There is people sitting at a front desk. It is blocked off from the main gaming floor. You cannot access it unless you have a card. Inside that room are our normal cameras and surveillance system, which is monitored 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and recorded 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And those people that are in that room, and those electronic gaming reps who are asked to perform this particular function have probably got no more than 10, 15 metres between anywhere in the room and the locked room where they will obtain the cash from to go to.

PN156

And when they go to do that, they will also call over the radio. The issue is that not every patron is going to ask for cash, because there will be a lot of patrons who will take their voucher and maybe come back another day. There are other patrons who will say, "No, thanks, I will take a cheque." And if they take a cheque they have to go down to the cage to do that, because it requires signatures. So the likelihood of anything happening we have - as I say, we have the surveillance in the room. When one of the reps is going to pay out anyone, they will call over their radio which goes to every employee in the electronic gaming department, as well as surveillance that they are going to that room to pay out the money. The room itself has a camera in it. It has a duress button if there is any incidents that the employees feel uncertain about.

PN157

THE COMMISSIONER: So the employee is wired to other employees?

PN158

MS HAYNES: Yes.

PN159

THE COMMISSIONER: And informs other employees in and around the area that they are about to carry cash from A to B?

PN160

MS HAYNES: That is right. There is a room within a room, if you like, or a small booth area where the cash is kept in locked drawers. That door can only be accessed by employees swiping their cards in and it locks behind them. So when they count out any money in there, there is no one seeing what they are doing. As I said, the room that we have is about 150 machines will be placed in there. The people that go in there we know the surveillance is on there, security patrol the area through. We have - you know, honestly we don't want to see our employees hurt.

PN161

That is not what we are in the business of doing. We don't want to see our patrons hurt either, and one of the issues we have is that we have quite clearly the OH&S rep from the department has been involved in the risk assessment process.

PN162

THE COMMISSIONER: What department are you talking about?

PN163

MS HAYNES: From the electronic gaming department.

PN164

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN165

MS HAYNES: So our OH&S manager engaged in the electronic gaming OH&S rep in the discussions. It has been to the OH&S corporate committee to be looked at, because quite clearly we identified in putting this process in, and this is about customer service. That is what this is about. And because we have an enclosed room we are not seeking to do it on the whole of the main gaming floor. We are seeking to do it in an enclosed space. We have been in discussions with the union for well over six weeks now, and - - -

PN166

THE COMMISSIONER: You sound terribly frustrated to me, Ms Haynes, so I have got to ask the obvious question - - -

PN167

MS HAYNES: I am, Commissioner.

PN168

THE COMMISSIONER: Why haven't the employees acknowledged and accepted the company's view to this point in time?

PN169

MS HAYNES: Well, we believe they have, because we haven't - the discussions we have had with our staff, and - - -

PN170

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, with very great respect, why are we here?

PN171

MS HAYNES: Well, I don't know. Commissioner, my view? We have the union rep who was looking after the case up until last Friday is currently on annual leave this week. A new rep has now come on to it who doesn't know what has been going on over the last five weeks, and suddenly - because we are opening the room next Tuesday, not next Monday. The room is opening next Tuesday, and we are intending to move forward with this particular process because we have been going through the training. We have been going through the discussions. We have been responding to the union every time they come up with an issue. My view is that the union just doesn't want to see it happen at all. They are not prepare - - -

PN172

THE COMMISSIONER: Why?

PN173

MS HAYNES: I don't know. They are not prepared to - - -

PN174

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, with very great respect, that is a question that you ought to be asking Ms Bravini and her colleagues.

PN175

MS HAYNES: Well, we - - -

PN176

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, perhaps I should be asking the question too. But it makes no sense to me, if you had all of these discussions with the union, and the union's delegates, but you don't know what the union's position is, and what the employees concerns are - - -

PN177

MS HAYNES: Well, as far as we are - - -

PN178

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - apart from what you have just told me; there has been a change in union rep, because Mr Dooley is on annual leave. Is that right?

PN179

MS HAYNES: Well, that's - - -

PN180

THE COMMISSIONER: Is it as simple as that?

PN181

MS HAYNES: Mr Taylor. Yes, well - - -

PN182

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Taylor, sorry.

PN183

MS HAYNES: We don't see - we have not been told by the union what their specific concerns are to date. And as far as we're concerned, the discussions we've had with our employees, there has been - the issues that were raised originally which were noted on a feedback suggestion form here have all been addressed. And, in fact, had more to do with breaks and other things like we're talking about money being laid out in the booth prior to going to the customer. "Can we do that?" "Yes, you can do that. We've got a camera on that to make sure that what you're giving them is right." These were the issues that the staff have raised with us. They've all been addressed.

PN184

The issues that the union have raised with us in the discussions that they've had with the departmental people and the HR have all been addressed in writing back to the union.

PN185

THE COMMISSIONER: This is through Mr Taylor?

PN186

MS HAYNES: Yes.

PN187

THE COMMISSIONER: Is Mr Taylor an employee or is he an organiser of the union?

PN188

MS HAYNES: He's an organiser of the union.

PN189

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN190

MS HAYNES: And as far as we were concerned the last discussion that Mr Taylor had with Ms Ibrahim was, "Looks all right, we'll get the risk assessment done and that should be about it". Now, Commissioner, we've been proceeding on that basis and then we have yesterday we - well, we received a dispute notification; yesterday Workcover phoned and said, "Could they come down?" I contacted Mr Donnelly of the union and suggested that he should be there as well at 10.30 yesterday. And when Workcover found out that there was a dispute notified today, they declined to actually make any comments on that.

PN191

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I've got no way of determining objectively whether this is an occupational health and safety matter or not.

PN192

MS HAYNES: Commissioner, as far as we're concerned, we have looked at it in terms of an OH and S risk. We have assessed it. We have come up with a risk assessment and in terms of, you know, it's a risk assessment like we would do for any other areas of our business. And it has come up and said a low to medium risk with a rare or unlikely to occur. We also have looked at other casinos who use a similar process and they have had no issues at all and have been doing these things for years and not in - - -

PN193

THE COMMISSIONER: Would the employees be aware of that?

PN194

MS HAYNES: They would be. Some of them would be; not all of them but some of - - -

PN195

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if the company made an effort to persuade the employees that this is a perfectly normal procedure that happens in other casinos.

PN196

MS HAYNES: Yes, we have and - - -

PN197

THE COMMISSIONER: Does it occur in Australia in other casinos?

PN198

MS HAYNES: Yes, it does. Commissioner, I'm just unsure of where the union in terms of where their information is coming from. They conducted a survey which they were supposed to have the results or were supposed to have returns by last - or Monday of this week, the Monday just gone, the 26th, and they haven't provided us any information on that. If there is any extra things - rather than just the whole thing is a problem, is there specifics?

PN199

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is certainly being put in very generalised terms at this point in time.

PN200

MS HAYNES: I think my issue too is that the people that are currently here at the moment from the union are unaware of the discussions that have taken place - - -

PN201

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, who else - - -

PN202

MS HAYNES: - - - with Mr Taylor.

PN203

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - other than Mr Taylor has been involved in these discussions? Have there been any site delegates involved in the discussions?

PN204

MS HAYNES: The department doesn't have a delegate from the union.

PN205

THE COMMISSIONER: Any other delegates involved?

PN206

MS HAYNES: No, not that I'm aware of.

PN207

THE COMMISSIONER: Where other employees have been involved?

PN208

MS HAYNES: Yes. The OH and S rep who is an electronic gaming rep as well as being involved. And her comments:

PN209

The possibility of assault or violence against employees would be very low because the access to VIP slots ...(reads)... HR Co-ordinator advised that there will be sufficient level 4 staff to cater for the hand pay service.

PN210

THE COMMISSIONER: And this is a 24 hour seven day a week operation?

PN211

MS HAYNES: Yes, it is.

PN212

THE COMMISSIONER: And are there adequate staff of adequate skills, the level 4 - - -

PN213

MS HAYNES: Yes, there is.

PN214

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - experienced cash handling people available on a 24 hour seven day a week basis?

PN215

MS HAYNES: Yes, there is because we operate the Keno and TAB not 24 seven, but certainly when that area is not operating those level 4 employees are performing normal electronic gaming functions. If, at any point, we found that we were lacking in that area, we would be training those people up to perform those functions. The - - -

PN216

THE COMMISSIONER: The employees concerned - you say that they've had some specific training on this new procedure.

PN217

MS HAYNES: Yes, they have.

PN218

PN219

THE COMMISSIONER: What has been the nature of their training?

PN220

MS HAYNES: The specific training that they've had - they've all been provided with a procedure which is essentially an overview of what happens, and then a very detailed document in terms of what they need to do and how they need to do it.

PN221

THE COMMISSIONER: Would Mr Donnelly or Ms Riley be aware of that?

PN222

MS HAYNES: Not aware. They - - -

PN223

THE COMMISSIONER: You're not aware whether they are aware?

PN224

MS HAYNES: So this started this week. Phil Taylor was advised last week that the training would actually be commencing this week. This particular training also includes armed hold-up and you know what to do with duress alarms and all that type of thing, as well as just the procedure in general.

PN225

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you think it will be worthwhile if you were to sit down face to face with those representatives of the union that were here today and take them through the procedure itself? If you say that neither Mr Donnelly nor Ms Riley would have personal experience of this area or of the training, do you think it would be worthwhile if you took the time now to take them through this material and this training? And, in fact, you might persuade them that what you've done is adequate.

PN226

MS HAYNES: Well, I'd be happy to do that, Commissioner, if the union are prepared to look at it; but I'm unsure as to whether the union are not prepared to look at the concept at all or are prepared to come forward and say, "These are the specific issues we have". I mean up to date all I've heard is essentially that they don't want their staff carrying cash. End of story. Now, the current staff actually carry on the floor every day - we need to fill up the machines and there's $1500 every day that they - they have a trolley where a security officer stands, and then the employees come up and take the canisters off that machine, and go off to wherever they need to do it. Now, that happens every - that's coin but they do that every day on the main gaming floor.

PN227

THE COMMISSIONER: So it's not likely to - - -

PN228

MS HAYNES: Not in a confined space.

PN229

THE COMMISSIONER: Not likely that a coin trolley is going to get knocked off. It would be difficult to remove.

PN230

MS HAYNES: Well, it could be an interesting sight. But, you know, they do that currently now and they do that on the main gaming floor. This is a confined room with very limited access. And as I say, you know, it's not just a case of walking off the street and getting a hundred points and, you know, "Great, I'm a gold or a platinum member". You need to have been playing at the casino, you know, and having your card registered on the machines to even be in - you actually get invited to be a gold or platinum member. You don't just suddenly decide you want to apply for that. So - - -

PN231

THE COMMISSIONER: Crooks are crooks I suppose wherever they might be.

PN232

MS HAYNES: I suppose they are. True.

PN233

THE COMMISSIONER: They might even be platinum card holders.

PN234

MS HAYNES: They may do. They may do.

PN235

THE COMMISSIONER: But be that as it may.

PN236

MS HAYNES: We would believe though that the amount of security we have there and the controls that we have put in place, you know, as far as we're concerned, the issue for us is that, you know, we haven't done this before ourselves. So in terms of implementing it, we are more than prepared to in two months time, in three months time, in six months time continue to review the operation of what is actually happening. We do know for a fact that, you know, it's probably 90-odd per cent of our pay outs are less than a thousand dollars. So in terms of - and that's across the whole main gaming floor, that's where all the slots machines - - -

PN237

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what about in this VIP Slots room, what is the average pay out there?

PN238

MS HAYNES: Well, we don't know. We haven't opened it yet; it's a new room. But if you take those machines off the main gaming floor and put them in that room, there's not going to much change in terms of how, you know, the percentages because those machines are coming off the main gaming floor and going into there. In terms of pay outs over $5000, there's not even - golly, we're lucky if we make half a per cent of pay outs go at that amount. And in terms of over $2000, if I look at that, you're lucky if it reaches 2 per cent of pay outs. So in terms of what we're actually specifically talking about, and why the risk assessment has come up where it's come up because the likelihood of it happening is fairly rare, you know, most of the pay outs are less than a thousand dollars, the vast majority.

PN239

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you, Ms Haynes. I've probably heard enough from the employer at this time. Back to you, Ms Bravini. There are some things there where your contentions have been directly challenged. You may wish to reply to some of them, but, importantly to me, it seems that if what Ms Haynes has said - your expert is not here to help you.

PN240

MS BRAVINI: Yes.

PN241

THE COMMISSIONER: You're being expected to carry the can, along with Mr Donnelly and Ms Riley who, I understand, don't have personal experience in this area and, as such, are probably doing this all with second-hand information themselves. I wonder if some time might be better spent between the parties, without me being present, conferring about the things that you've heard Ms Haynes say, particularly about the new cash handling procedures, by whom, the training that they are having, I guess as we speak, and, in my view, probably something was said towards the end there that is probably the most significant thing of the lot, and that really is that the new procedures are going to be reviewed - the whole process is going to be reviewed on a regular basis. And that might be an arrangement that you can come to with the employer to do a formal review every month for the next three months and, perhaps, another three months after that.

PN242

MS BRAVINI: Yes. Thanks, Commissioner.

PN243

THE COMMISSIONER: They're some suggestions, and it seems to me that you're shooting off with a certain amount of information. Some of that has been challenged and I'll certainly listen to your replies, but it seems to me you're dealing with generalisations.

PN244

MS BRAVINI: No. Well, we have tried to obtain information. This is our exact problem is that every time the union has tried to consult and obtain information - management have been aware that Phil Taylor was not in the office. On 27 May - I have an e-mail from my colleague, Mr Donnelly, requesting the exact procedure that this Handypay procedure would involve, of exact training, and we also specifically requested - - -

PN245

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bravini, let's forget what happened on the 28th. Let's talk about today.

PN246

MS BRAVINI: Well, that's what I'm saying - - -

PN247

THE COMMISSIONER: There's a proposal here that you talk face to face with these people.

PN248

MS BRAVINI: Absolutely. But I'm just - I want it - have it put on record that every time the union has requested specific details of what this procedure is, and every time we have tried to voice our concerns about what the staff have told us we have basically received blanket replies of, "Oh, Phil knows. Phil's been told. Everybody else has been told. You can just find it off them." And every time we've tried to receive some specific - - -

PN249

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, perhaps that was the way it suited the union deal with the matter, to have Mr Taylor be the person involved.

PN250

MS BRAVINI: No. Well, we have a letter specifically written by our Branch Secretary which, I believe, was initiated by Phil Taylor specifically saying that we hadn't actually agreed to any proposal. Phil had not agreed to any proposal, and that if a proposal was to be implemented without any union agreement we would file a dispute. And this was from April, 17 April, where we had been trying to have negotiations, fruitful negotiations, on what the specific procedure would be because we weren't receiving details.

PN251

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, let's stop talking about the past tense.

PN252

MS BRAVINI: That's right.

PN253

THE COMMISSIONER: Let's talk about the future tense. It's now Friday. This doesn't start till Tuesday. You've got between now and Tuesday to talk with the employer until you're each blue in the face, until you and your colleagues have a clear understanding of the new procedure, of the training, of the persons involved, of their experience profiles, and exactly what will be expected of them. So let's forget about who's been talking who what in the past. Obviously the employer has been relying upon Mr Taylor, to a degree the union has been relying upon Mr Taylor - - -

PN254

MS BRAVINI: That's right.

PN255

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - but today you are not on common ground.

PN256

MS BRAVINI: No.

PN257

THE COMMISSIONER: You need to get on common ground about what you're talking about.

PN258

MS BRAVINI: Yes, Commissioner.

PN259

THE COMMISSIONER: And I don't see that that's going to occur unless the two parties here agree to just talk face to face, really until you're blue in the face.

PN260

MS BRAVINI: Yes, Commissioner.

PN261

THE COMMISSIONER: And I don't think that requires me. Now, you have your dispute settling procedure. You've got competent people here on both sides. Take the time to confer face to face.

PN262

MS BRAVINI: Yes, Commissioner. Well, that's why we had to - - -

PN263

THE COMMISSIONER: That's what dispute settling procedures are all about.

PN264

MS BRAVINI: That's why we had to initiate this conciliation procedure is because we needed your assistance to bring these parties together. We have tried this past week.

PN265

THE COMMISSIONER: Well - - -

PN266

MS BRAVINI: Without Phil Taylor, with no fruitful - - -

PN267

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - you see, Ms Haynes has a completely contrary view, that they have been - - -

PN268

MS BRAVINI: I understand, but that is - - -

PN269

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - dealing with Mr Taylor.

PN270

MS BRAVINI: That would be understandable, they would have a contrary view - - -

PN271

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN272

MS BRAVINI: - - - because - - -

PN273

THE COMMISSIONER: They've been dealing with Mr Taylor and, as it's been explained to me, the employer was satisfied that Mr Taylor had said, "Let's get the risk assessment done and then that's it."

PN274

MS BRAVINI: Well, as far as we've been told - - -

PN275

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, none of us know what Mr Taylor has said - - -

PN276

MS BRAVINI: That's right. Well - - -

PN277

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - because everybody is talking about Mr Taylor in the second person.

PN278

MS BRAVINI: We do know what - we do actually know what Mr Taylor has said because he briefed our Branch Secretary who sent this letter out saying that - - -

PN279

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, the Branch Secretary is not here. So you're getting it second-hand as well.

PN280

MS BRAVINI: Well, we've got letters to confirm, or we actually have correspondence to confirm that we aren't getting hearsay here.

PN281

THE COMMISSIONER: So you say you don't - you haven't seen the training procedure?

PN282

MS BRAVINI: No. We have not seen any - - -

PN283

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Is that training procedure here, Ms Haynes?

PN284

MS HAYNES: Yes. It is.

PN285

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Okay. Do you know the list of the employees and the experience of the employees that are going to be dealing with this, and would those employees be known to Mr Donnelly and Ms Riley?

PN286

MS HAYNES: I don't imagine they would be known to them.

PN287

THE COMMISSIONER: But it mightn't be a bad idea to go through who those employees are.

PN288

MS HAYNES: We have - yes, we do have a list of employees. Whether they'd actually be known to - some would be members. Some would not be members.

PN289

THE COMMISSIONER: Of course.

PN290

MS HAYNES: I'm - - -

PN291

THE COMMISSIONER: But the opportunity exists for you here to take the opportunity to talk to the union representatives today about the facts that you want me to believe.

PN292

MS BRAVINI: Yes.

PN293

THE COMMISSIONER: You don't have to persuade me. You certainly have to persuade the colleagues at the other end of the bar table.

PN294

MS HAYNES: Commissioner, if I might say that if the union had rung and asked us for a meeting, we would have been more than happy to do that.

PN295

MS BRAVINI: The union has been making e-mails consistently - - -

PN296

THE COMMISSIONER: Look, I'm quite frankly not interested in hearing the tit for tat up and down the bar table. You obviously haven't conferred satisfactorily. The union, as a consequence, has raised a section 99 dispute notification. I'm not sure that it's even an industrial dispute, but at least I've got you in the one room at the one time. And I think the smartest thing that I can do is vacate the bench and leave you to confer directly for a while. Now, I'm happy to rejoin you at a later time, or simply leave you to confer today for as long as you need to, or over the weekend, and sort this out. If the matter needs to be relisted on Monday, it might be able to be done at short notice. You run at 24 hour seven day a week operation.

PN297

MS HAYNES: Commissioner, we're more than happy to confer but I would expect some commitment from the union that they are able to make a decision on the matter.

PN298

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I have no idea whether the union can make decisions or not. The Branch Secretary is not here and the employee representative that you've been dealing with is not here. So perhaps they can't, but that's the risk that you take. One of the risks that you take is to try and persuade the group of people who are here representing the employees that your side of the argument is more persuasive than theirs. And I'm happy to give you the opportunity of doing that by face to face discussions.

PN299

MS BRAVINI: Yes, but my colleague is now going to ring back our office and see if we can try and get the Branch Secretary either here or, if the officials of the management of Star City would like to come back to our office and we could continue discussions in our office - - -

PN300

THE COMMISSIONER: You can - if you really want neutral territory you can stay right here.

PN301

MS BRAVINI: Well, that's right. Well, if the Assistant Branch Secretary is able to come.

PN302

THE COMMISSIONER: If Star City is not neutral territory sufficiently, or the union office is not, then you're welcome to use the public facilities which we all pay for.

PN303

MS BRAVINI: Well, we are going to try now and access the Branch Secretary or the Assistant Branch Secretary to come up and have discussions on behalf of the union because he would have had direct discussions with Phil Taylor - - -

PN304

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN305

MS BRAVINI: - - - at the moment, and then we could - - -

PN306

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that not Ms Owens?

PN307

MS BRAVINI: Sorry?

PN308

THE COMMISSIONER: It's not Ms Owens?

PN309

MS BRAVINI: No. It's not Ms Owens. It would be Mark Boyd, the Assistant Branch Secretary.

PN310

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Yes. Well, has Mr Boyd been involved in discussions with management prior to today?

PN311

MS BRAVINI: He has. He was the one that initiated this letter to Star City saying that Phil Taylor had spoken to him about that he wasn't satisfied with - that the safety risks had been taken care of and that, if they weren't in the near - no other procedure would be brought to the union that could deal with this sort of risk, that we would file a dispute.

PN312

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, with very great respect, it's about time you each got the first-hand knowledge players in the room at the same time to talk face to face.

PN313

MS HAYNES: Commissioner, Mr Boyd, as far as I'm - has not had any direct discussions with us. His involvement has been through his obviously Phil Taylor discussing with him. The letter that my colleague keeps referring to was dated 17 April. Many - you know, two weeks after we started original discussions, some four weeks ago. So we've moved a lot of ground since then. But Mr Boyd has not been involved in any specific discussions, other than signing letters that - this letter.

PN314

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I don't know what he will bring to the discussions but Ms Bravini obviously thinks that his contribution will be something.

PN315

MS HAYNES: I assume that Mr Boyd is the one that will need to make the decision as to whether the union can agree to the processes or not.

PN316

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm prepared to adjourn these proceedings generally and to leave you to get on and confer directly. I'm happy to recall the matter later today, if that will assist, or middle of the day on Monday, if that will assist. It is the union's application, after all, but that offer to have the matter called back on is open to both parties that are here today. I mean, it's about think, I think, you started talking turkey to each other and instead of dealing with everything on a second-hand basis, talk to some of the people that are directly involved.

PN317

Now, if that necessitates the union getting a couple of people who are members of the union who are going to be exposed - supposedly exposed to these risks, to get them in the room with managers, then do so. As I say, I'm happy to make the Commission's facilities available for you. I can provide you with a separate conference room on this floor so you can confer separately and come back in here and confer together. It's largely up to you as to how you want to deal with it. Ms Bravini?

PN318

MS BRAVINI: With all due respect, Commissioner, we have had members come forward and say they are concerned, but they are fearful to come forward to management for fear of losing - - -

PN319

THE COMMISSIONER: Don't give me that, Ms Bravini.

PN320

MS BRAVINI: We have, Commissioner. They have moved - - -

PN321

THE COMMISSIONER: If they genuinely have a grievance - - -

PN322

MS BRAVINI: They have already moved from one position to another.

PN323

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bravini, there is your dispute settling procedure - - -

PN324

MS BRAVINI: Absolutely.

PN325

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - that places an onus on individuals, as much as it places an onus upon management and representatives.

PN326

MS BRAVINI: That's right. And when we issued out our survey - - -

PN327

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not going to allow you to hide behind - - -

PN328

MS BRAVINI: No, when we issued our survey to our members and to the staff they have said that they have raised these concerns with management in the survey to the union. These are the results that we were trying to tidy up to give - - -

PN329

THE COMMISSIONER: Where is the survey?

PN330

MS BRAVINI: Well, these are the results. We have actually tallied up - we only just received all the results back on the 28th, I believe, of May.

PN331

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, show them to the employer this afternoon.

PN332

MS BRAVINI: And we haven't had a chance to. And that was the problem - was that we were telling management, "We are trying to tally these up; bear with us," because there were a number of results and they weren't prepared to wait. They said that they had planned for this procedure to take place and they wanted to implement it.

PN333

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it seems to me that you weren't prepared to wait either because you jumped in with the urgent section 99 dispute notification.

PN334

MS BRAVINI: We are worried about the members and our employees; that this is going to be a direct threat to their safety and that's what they have told us - - -

PN335

THE COMMISSIONER: No, they are the company's employees. They are your members.

PN336

MS BRAVINI: - - - and they are scared and fearful.

PN337

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, I would like those employees who say to you that they are scared and fearful to tell their supervisors directly. That's what's required of them under this dispute settling procedure.

PN338

MS BRAVINI: And they have. And that's what we've understood by the surveys that we've given to them and they have said that management have not taken these concerns on board because management have said, "You are being sent to this training and that should be sufficient". For example, we have one member who has moved from, I believe, the food and beverage area into this area, who said she moved specifically because she couldn't handle cash in that area and moved because this was told to be an easier position in terms of her skills and training. And she is now fearful - - -

PN339

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, she might need to transfer somewhere else.

PN340

MS BRAVINI: Well, that's what our suggestion is: that if, at least, management had taken these concerns on board, they would have at least tried to allow for those employees who aren't prepared to do this type of training.

PN341

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bravini, it's time to stop talking in generalisations and it's time for you to start talking actual experiences of actual employees and dealing with them as grievances with management - - -

PN342

MS BRAVINI: That's right.

PN343

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - and each side being properly represented. Now, you can go away from here, you can do that this afternoon. You can raise all of this survey material directly with the employer and go through that.

PN344

MS BRAVINI: Well, we have tried to. And we haven't been offered an option - - -

PN345

THE COMMISSIONER: Right? And at the same time - the same time listen to what the employer representatives have to say - - -

PN346

MS BRAVINI: Yes.

PN347

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - about the actual procedure itself, the experience of the people who are going to be expected to do it, their training, additional training and cash handling. You never know - - -

PN348

MS BRAVINI: We are - - -

PN349

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - they might actually have some substance in what they say.

PN350

MS BRAVINI: Absolutely. That was our frustration - that has been the union's frustration as we haven't received any - we feel we haven't received the information in terms of specific details and it's difficult - - -

PN351

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it's my suggestion to you both that you both back off a bit. You're digging very, very deep trenches for each other, so both back off a bit and look a bit more objectively at trying to resolve this in accordance with your own dispute settling procedure. Don't sit at the Bar Table and throw hand grenades up and down the Bar Table. That doesn't resolve a thing. Now, the Commission is prepared to assist with some independent mediation or conciliation, if that's what the parties seek, but I'm not prepared to do that until such time as you each show each other really the cards that you are holding.

PN352

And then I will know whether there is some real substance in this industrial dispute or not. Now, is that a procedure that you're prepared to follow, at least, say for the balance of today?

PN353

MS BRAVINI: Yes.

PN354

MS HAYNES: Commissioner, we've been more than prepared to follow it.

PN355

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, okay. Well, I hear a willingness on the part of both sides to confer privately. I'm prepared to just merely adjourn the proceedings at this time to a time and date to be fixed and I will call the matter on at short notice if requested to do so. Now, I can do that later this afternoon or around the middle of the day on Monday. It will only be for a very short time if that's the case. Ms Bravini, is there anything for the record before I conclude?

PN356

MS BRAVINI: No, Commissioner, thank you.

PN357

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Haynes?

PN358

MS HAYNES: No, thanks, Commissioner.

PN359

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, you have my suggestions. It's up to you what you do with them. I will adjourn these proceedings now generally.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.59am]