C2003/3865, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 2591 (23 June 2003)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 3173
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN

C2003/3865

HEALTH SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA

and

ISIS PRIMARY CARE and ANOTHER

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re the alleged failure to pay the
relevant Higher Qualification Allowance to
dietitians and psychologists

MELBOURNE

3.30 PM, TUESDAY, 10 JUNE 2003

PN1

DR R. KELLY: I appear for the Health Services Union of Australia. With me is MS C. BALL.

PN2

MR R. CORBOY: I appear for the VHIA representing Isis. I believe the Industrial Relations Manager from Eastern Health is on her way. She has been detained and I believe she has left a message in your chambers to that effect. She anticipates being here in about 10 minutes, your Honour.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr Kelly.

PN4

DR KELLY: Your Honour, I am not sure whether I have made the correct application with a section 99 dispute following our discussions in the previous matter that was before you. This, indeed, revolves the issues between the parties and it is Isis Primary Care and Eastern Health, involves the application of the enterprise agreement which applies to medical scientists, psychologists and pharmacists and in particular the clause which goes to higher qualifications allowances.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't have a copy of that agreement on the bench.

PN6

DR KELLY: I do have copies of that agreement, I think only my own copy. If your Honour pleases, I could hand you up a copy of the Isis Primary Care Incorporated Agreement which is in similar terms to the Eastern Health agreement.

PN7

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, when you say the Eastern Health, the notification talks about the Public Health Sector (Medical Scientists, Pharmacists, Psychologists) Certified Agreement 2000, Isis Primary Care and then the Public Health Sector (Medical Scientists, Pharmacists and Psychologists) Certified Agreement 2000, Eastern Health. Is it in respect of - or perhaps I should not interrupt you and just let you go on and you will no doubt explain to me what it is all about.

PN8

DR KELLY: I take you to clause 45, dispute resolution, of each of the agreements.

PN9

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They are in identical terms?

PN10

DR KELLY: They are in identical terms, your Honour.

PN11

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN12

DR KELLY: 45.1.1 recognises that disputes may arise between the parties concerned in the application of the agreement and I take you to 45.3.1, the role of the Commission where matters remain unresolved following application of the steps referred to in the subclause, then as provided by section 170LWA of the Workplace Relations Act, they -

PN13

shall be referred to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission for assistance in reaching settlement through conciliation in the first instance or arbitration.

PN14

So we are here today to seek your assistance in the first instance in relation to conciliating the matter between the parties. Your Honour, the issue between the parties goes to the payment of higher qualifications allowances to dietitians and psychologists employed in Isis Primary Care and by Eastern Health.

PN15

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dietitians and psychologists?

PN16

DR KELLY: And psychologists and the payment of the higher qualifications allowance under the respective enterprise agreement to those two classifications of employees. If the Commission pleases, I would like to hand up a copy of a letter I wrote to Alex Djoneff who is the General Manager of the Victorian Hospitals' Industrial Association in January of this year to indicate to the Commission that the union has attempted to resolve this matter by discussion and negotiation and this matter has quite a long history.

PN17

It, in fact, goes back to April 2002 in relation to a third community health centre, Banyule Community Health Centre. I had discussions with Mr Djoneff in December 2002 regarding advice being given by the VHIA concerning the application of higher qualifications at Isis Primary Care. There was also an exchange of correspondence between the union and the VHIA in relation to Banyule Community Health Centre.

PN18

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I am not concerned with that one, am I?

PN19

DR KELLY: No. This one is not before you and this letter also refers to Eastern Access Community Health Centre back payments to two psychologists and the third indented paragraph there:

PN20

Isis Community Care, the payment of higher qualifications allowances, including back pay, to psychologists and dietitians.

PN21

Now, the management of Isis have been informed - claim that they have been told by the VHIA that because dietitians and psychologists require higher qualifications for registration and practice, they are not entitled to be paid the higher qualifications allowance:

PN22

As per our discussions in December 2002, could you please advise management at Isis that this is incorrect.

PN23

I in fact had discussions with Mr Djoneff in December 2002 in which he agreed with me in relation to the application of higher qualifications allowances to psychologists and dietitians. I had a further verbal discussion with Mr Djoneff in February of this year when I attended his offices and he said to me in that meeting and I am sorry, I can't tell you the exact date, that he would get back to me by the Friday of that week and indicate to me that he had given instructions to Isis Community Care and at that stage Eastern Health were also part of this in relation to the proper payment of those higher qualifications allowances. I have tried several times to contact Mr Djoneff about this and have left a number of messages and haven't received any communication from him, either verbally or in writing about this matter.

PN24

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you say that Mr Djoneff has agreed with your interpretation of the clause?

PN25

DR KELLY: Yes, your Honour.

PN26

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it should be easy. What are we doing here?

PN27

DR KELLY: That rhetorical question I have asked myself, your Honour.

PN28

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, Mr Corboy will have the invidious task of telling me.

PN29

DR KELLY: I will take you to the agreement. At the back is appended a series of rates of pay and allowances. If we go to I think page 27, rates of pay for dietitians and if you go over the page to page 28 and 29, there are references in the bold type to the different types of allowances and you will see halfway down page 29 those operative dates for the various increases under this enterprise agreement.

PN30

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is for psychologists.

PN31

DR KELLY: Yes. If you look up above, on the page before, page 28, you will see that there is allowances there for higher qualifications.

PN32

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but I can't see anything for dietitians. Yes, I can, graduate certificate.

PN33

DR KELLY: Yes, graduate certificate, graduate diploma, master of science and PhDs and then down the very bottom, dietitians, graduate certificate, etcetera. Now, by way of background, the masters and PhD allowances have a long history which go back to the making of the State awards for dietitians and psychologists. There have always been masters allowances and PhD allowances in those old State awards.

PN34

The awards to which I am referring are the Medical Scientists State award and the Psychologists State Award, so they have a long provenance. The graduate diploma and graduate certificate allowances were introduced by the parties by consent in the 2002 enterprise agreement and you will see there in the outline of those rates for allowances for graduate diploma and graduate certificate, they don't start until 1 October 2000. That is when they were introduced.

PN35

You will see that there are rates in that agreement from 1 July 1999, 1 April 2000 for the masters allowance and the doctoral allowance, so the grad certificate and the graduate diploma were new allowances introduced into both of the awards - sorry, introduced for both of those classifications, as well as for scientists, pharmacists and perfusionists. If I take you over to the next page, page 30, you will see on page 30 graduate certificate, graduate diploma and masters and PhD allowances for the psychologists.

PN36

Now, what is at issue here in relation to both of these organisations is the payment of those graduate qualifications allowances. In both of the old awards, those masters and PhD allowances are incorporated into the wages clause and the intention of the EBA was to incorporate the graduate certificate and graduate diploma allowances. At Isis Primary Care, I am instructed that the issues there are the payment of a graduate diploma in dietetics allowance to a dietitian.

PN37

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, payment of?

PN38

DR KELLY: Diploma in dietetics, graduate diploma in dietetics.

PN39

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: To dietitians?

PN40

DR KELLY: To a dietitian, that is correct, and also the payment of higher qualifications allowance to a psychologist. At Eastern Health, the matter relates to back pay for payment of a master of nutrition and dietetics to a dietitian and back pay for a graduate diploma in nutrition and dietetics to a dietitian.

PN41

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What was the first one?

PN42

DR KELLY: Master of nutrition.

PN43

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And the other one?

PN44

DR KELLY: A graduate diploma. I am instructed by the members that both dietitians are being paid for their higher qualifications allowance now.

PN45

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is at Eastern Health?

PN46

DR KELLY: At Eastern Health, but are being refused back pay and I am further instructed and we have got the manager for HR at Eastern Health here, I see, that there has been apparently and this is only hearsay, a statement that nobody in the future will be paid higher qualifications allowances where they are dietitians. That is essentially the matter that is in dispute between the parties. There have been attempts to discuss both of these issues with the direct employers as well as the VHIA.

PN47

In relation to the dietitians, I understand the argument is from the employers that because they assert that these higher qualifications are necessary for practice as a dietitian, that therefore they are not payable to the persons concerned. Now, I apologise for not handing up the complete Medical Scientists Award, but if your Honour pleases, I could hand you up the wages clause which applies to dietitians of the old Medical Scientists Award 1991 and as you are aware, this is incorporated into the Health Services Union of Australia (Victoria - Public Sector) Interim Award 1993.

PN48

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. The sooner it is simplified, the better. So this is from the old Medical Scientists Award?

PN49

DR KELLY: It is, your Honour. My friend has just pointed out that the letter which I handed up hasn't been given an exhibit number.

PN50

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is because you didn't seek to tender it.

PN51

DR KELLY: I will seek to tender it, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #HSUA1 LETTER TO MR DJONEFF

PN52

DR KELLY: Thank you. I don't know that the award clause actually needs to be given an exhibit number. It may help.

EXHIBIT #HSUA2 AWARD CLAUSE

PN53

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We can keep track of things. It is easier that way, so it is the Medical Scientists Award. What year?

PN54

DR KELLY: 1991, State, in brackets.

PN55

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, that extract will be exhibit HSUA2.

PN56

DR KELLY: I just want to take you to the dietetics clause which is on page 12M on the lefthand side of that page. Now, within the award, the award provides for accelerated promotion through the grade 1 status of the award for someone who holds either a masters or a PhD and I take you to M(i)(c) and (d):

PN57

A dietitian who is qualified to hold the degree of master of science shall be entitled to commence on the rate of dietitian grade 1 ...(reads)... prescribed in subclause (i)(m)(v)(a) hereof for a further period of two years.

PN58

So it is certainly in the contemplation of the award that the higher qualifications allowance is payable to a dietitian with a masters degree, but not until two years after he or she has begun practice. Similarly with clause (d):

PN59

A dietitian who holds or is qualified to hold the degree of doctor of philosophy shall be entitled to commence at the rate of dietitian grade 1 ...(reads)... higher qualification payment for a further period of two years.

PN60

So clearly the award contemplated that the masters qualification allowance would be payable to a dietitian two years after that person commenced his or her employment in the public sector as a grade 1 dietitian, so it is the union's submission that in looking at the higher qualifications allowances that are payable at least for masters and PhD allowances for dietitian, one needs to go back to the award which underpins the enterprise agreement and have a look at - - -

PN61

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Because there is nothing in the enterprise agreement that talks about this?

PN62

DR KELLY: There is nothing in the certified agreement that would change the position of the award and the certified agreement in fact picks up the provisions of the award in its terms, clause 5.

PN63

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN64

DR KELLY: For psychologists, the position is slightly different in that there is no accelerated promotion for psychologists through a classification structure in relation to holding those higher qualifications prior to entering practice in the public health system. If your Honour pleases, I will hand up an extract from the Psychologists Award and that is the Psychologists Award Number 4 of 1990, the old Victorian award. I am handing up clause 2, the salary clause.

PN65

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I take it you want to tender that.

PN66

DR KELLY: Yes.

EXHIBIT #HSUA3 EXTRACT FROM PSYCHOLOGISTS AWARD NUMBER 4 1990

PN67

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr Kelly.

PN68

DR KELLY: Thank you, your Honour. This award is in slightly different terms with the higher qualifications allowance as subclause (e) of clause 2, salary, so it is part of salary and it says:

PN69

Where a psychologist has a higher qualification, they shall be paid in addition the following -

PN70

and then it is an outline of masters, MA, Msc, MPsych and in regard to psychologists, there is also membership of the Boards of Clinical Psychologists. Those boards are boards of the Australian Psychological Society which has clinical colleges very similar to the clinical colleges of medical associations, so if someone has a membership of a clinical board of the APS, then they are also entitled to the higher qualifications allowance.

PN71

You will also see in there post graduate diploma in health administration or any other recognised equivalent qualification as a qualification which attracts the higher qualifications allowance for masters. For a doctorate, PhD, DScience or recognised equivalent qualification, there is an allowance there for the holding of those higher qualifications which are in terms of the percentage of grade 1, year 1 psychologists rate, so it seems incontrovertible to the union that psychologists holding a masters degree or a PhD is entitled to be paid the higher qualifications allowance under the relevant enterprise bargaining agreement.

PN72

Of course, awards are silent in relation to graduate certificate and only refer to graduate diploma where it is a graduate diploma in health administration. Those two qualifications were added to the list of higher qualifications which would apply for the purposes of the rates of pay of psychologists, dietitians, perfusionists, medical scientists and pharmacists in the 2000 enterprise agreement negotiations which eventually led to the certification of upwards of 70 or 80 separate enterprise agreements in Victoria covering the public health sector.

PN73

Those negotiations were in their terms, of course, consent negotiations. The matter was subject to a section 111AA decision by Commissioner Blair in relation to a number of issues, including higher qualifications allowances. After that decision, the parties spent the best part of 12 months, in fact, I think it was longer than 12 months, negotiating over the form of words that would be translated from two things, the section 111AA decision of Commissioner Blair and secondly matters that were agreed to by the parties, but not taken to Commissioner Blair and translating the intentions of the negotiations and that decision into forms of words.

PN74

At no point in any of the negotiations did the VHIA raise the issue of these higher qualifications allowances not being payable to anyone because the assertion seems to be that there are mandatory requirements for registration or practice, so that was never raised by the VHIA in those discussions at all and there are no caveats on the payment of those graduate certificate and graduate diploma allowances within the terms of the EBA. Further, it is incorrect to say in terms of psychologists that either the graduate certificate, the graduate diploma, the masters or the PhD is a prerequisite for registration as a psychologist.

PN75

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is incorrect, you say?

PN76

DR KELLY: It is incorrect to say that.

PN77

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, incorrect to say that the - - -

PN78

DR KELLY: That these are mandatory qualifications which must be held.

PN79

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The diploma or the certificate?

PN80

DR KELLY: Yes, or, indeed, the masters or the PhD. The psychologists in Victoria are registered by the Victorian Psychologists Registration Board. I apologise to your Honour, I don't have with me in a form that I can hand up details of that registration, but I think it would be common ground between the parties that in order to be registered as a psychologist, a psychologist needs to have six years of study and approved practice, a combination of both. It is possible for a psychologist to be registered with a bachelor of social science in psychology honours which is a four year course, plus two years of supervised practice.

PN81

That is one way of getting the six years study and that supervised practice is practice in an environment where they are supervised by another psychologist. It is possible also to be registered by holding of, as well as an under-graduate degree in psychology, a masters or a PhD and in doing the masters and PhD, those higher qualifications require placement by psychologists in supervised practice as part of the masters of PhD and that is another way in which psychologists can qualify for the six years post school and become registered, so it is not mandatory to have any of those qualifications to be registered.

PN82

In relation to dietitians, dietitians are not required to be registered in Victoria and there are a variety of qualifications which might be held by dietitians in order for them to be recognised as qualified dietitians and there have been changes over the years in the qualifications that have been held to be mandatory by the professional association, but that professional association does not register dietitians. They are not registered in Victoria.

PN83

At the present time, dietitians who are graduating from university are graduating at masters level and that is about to change as to co-..... that is going through training for dietetics at the present time will be graduating with a bachelor in dietetics and nutrition honours, so the qualification which is given by the universities in relation to dietetics has been changing and has changed over time.

PN84

In the union's submission, your Honour, the EBA is quite clear in its terms in relation to the application of the graduate certificate and graduate diploma. It was never an issue between the parties at the time at which the EBA was made as to how those graduate certificates and graduate diplomas would apply to any of the classifications and that includes medical scientists, pharmacists, perfusionists, as well as dietitians and psychologists, audiologists as well, your Honour, so there is a whole raft of qualifications and classifications to which this applies.

PN85

Clearly, the awards mandate a payment for masters and PhD allowances and that is quite clear and whilst we are in dispute with these two organisations, at all other areas that we are aware of, dietitians and psychologists are being paid the appropriate higher qualifications allowance. I am instructed that at Eastern Health there is a difference between what is done at Box Hill Hospital which is part of Eastern Health and what is done at the Peter James Centre, also part of Eastern Health.

PN86

I am instructed that our members at Box Hill Hospital have been paid the higher qualifications allowance relevant to them as dietitians and psychologists and the only issue, or the issue we have with Eastern Health only relates to the Peter James Centre, so we have a situation at least at Eastern Health where we have one group of dietitians being treated differently from a second group of dietitians. Your Honour, I will leave my submissions there and hopefully you can assist the parties in a resolution.

PN87

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hopefully. We will see what Mr Corboy has to say about all this. Mr Corboy, Dr Kelly has verballed Mr Djoneff. Did he concede that these allowances are payable?

PN88

MR CORBOY: Those aren't my instructions. I spoke to Mr Djoneff on Friday afternoon about this matter, as I had the privilege of picking up the file and that was not his understanding and there is a difference of view. Just prior to your Honour convening the Commission, I was attempting to contact my office so we could perhaps set up a meeting between Mr Djoneff, myself and Dr Kelly to see if we can resolve this, hopefully sooner than later and I was, as I said, undertaking that process when the Commission came in. I still think this matter should be able to be resolved by conciliation, but I do believe Mr Djoneff would be helpful with those processes.

PN89

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What are your instructions?

PN90

MR CORBOY: Well, I would like to take you to that. My instructions are that the view of VHIA is that the wording in both the EBA and the award, if I may take you to the EBA, your Honour. I don't have a copy that Dr Kelly handed up, but I have I think one similar. It is 10.4 of the EBA?

PN91

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have a 10.4 that deals with psychologists?

PN92

MR CORBOY: And there is a 10.4.1 and it starts out with the words:

PN93

Where a psychologist has a higher qualification -

PN94

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They shall be paid in addition to the rates of pay prescribed in the appropriate clauses following.

[4.00pm]

PN95

MR CORBOY: It goes on from there. Now, when we look at psychologists, the requirements for registration of psychologists, as Dr Kelly has advised the bench, is that there are a number of ways a psychologist may be registered in Victoria. I would like to hand up two documents.

PN96

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the relevance of that? The clause doesn't talk about registration.

PN97

MR CORBOY: Well, I will just take you to what registration goes to, your Honour.

PN98

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN99

MR CORBOY: The first one is a single page one. It is an extract from the Psychologists Registration Act, the Victorian Act of 2000 where they talk in clause 5 of qualifications for general registration and clause (a) refers to a completed course of study approved of by the Board, plus supervision and training or, (b) successful course of study and then completed supervised training as required by the Board and approved by the Board prior to commencement, or the opinion of the Board as to qualifications, etcetera, so the Board has got a couple of models there which they consider to be appropriate for registration.

PN100

Now, from the Web site which is the second document being the two pages that are stapled, if I may take the Commission to the second page. It is entitled requirements for registration as a psychologist and the Commission will see that there are three qualifications there or three ways of becoming a psychologist which have got what we believe is equal status before the Board. One is the 480 working days with a practice as a psychologist, as a probationary psychologist.

PN101

Now, to be a probationary psychologist, you have to have a qualification in psychology which is recognised or successful completion of a masters or doctoral degree, there is no differentiation, in accordance with the above and applicants must be registered as probationary psychologists while engaged in supervised study or training in this option or option 3, has successfully completed a post-graduate research degree in psychology plus a number of days of supervised practice. Now, the view of VHIA is that for registration as a psychologist and I take you back to the certified agreement, it says:

PN102

Where a psychologist has a higher qualification -

PN103

they may have a masters degree to be a psychologist. It is not necessarily deemed to be a higher qualification within the Psychologists Registration Board of Victoria, because each one gives an entree - - -

PN104

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, but 10.4.1(c) indicates that for a psychologist with an MA or master of psychology, master of science or master of psychology, a 7.5 per cent allowance is payable.

PN105

MR CORBOY: Yes, your Honour, and that is one of the topics I was hoping to be able to discuss with Dr Kelly and Mr Djoneff to try and see where there is that difference between the two of them, to try and resolve this. This is I suppose - - -

PN106

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, just a minute. What do you say about adjourning this matter, Dr Kelly, and allowing discussions to take place? You will obviously get hold of Mr Djoneff because Mr Corboy will ensure that you do.

PN107

DR KELLY: Well, I have been unsuccessfully trying to get hold of Mr Djoneff.

PN108

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you will succeed in that, I can assure you.

PN109

DR KELLY: I will succeed in that, your Honour.

PN110

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is the first step, isn't it?

PN111

DR KELLY: I don't have any objection in principle to the parties meeting.

PN112

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I can't resolve it today. I think I had better not even express any opinions today, because you started off with Mr Djoneff. I know he is busy. He certainly wouldn't be deliberately avoiding you, I am sure.

PN113

DR KELLY: You are very kind to him, your Honour.

PN114

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, we both know Mr Djoneff and I am sure he wouldn't be doing that, but he does get caught up, I know, but when can you arrange a meeting, Mr Corboy?

PN115

MR CORBOY: That would depend on Mr Djoneff's diary and Dr Kelly's diary, but it would be very shortly.

PN116

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Next week?

PN117

MR CORBOY: Before next week, hopefully.

PN118

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, why don't you have a meeting some time as soon as you can. I now understand what this is about, but I don't think it would be fruitful to go any further into it today. If it is not resolved, I would like Mr Djoneff to be here on the next occasion, too, if there is a necessity for it, because he is intimately involved in it, obviously.

PN119

MR CORBOY: Certainly, your Honour.

PN120

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And I am just interested to have heard Dr Kelly verbally. I had better put verbally in inverted commas for the transcript, but I am sure that the matter will be able to be resolved either between you or in a conference after you have had further discussions and have been able to further isolate the issues, so I have got some problems this week and next week and then I am away for two weeks, so I won't relist it at this stage, or maybe I should, in case my diary fills up.

PN121

DR KELLY: Would you mind re-listing it, your Honour, because I will be taking leave from 10 July, so I would be grateful if we could have a date.

PN122

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I come back on 7 July, so how about if we re-list it for the 8th or 9th? I have got a multi-arbitration roster, so it will have to be earl or late. How about nine o'clock on the 9th?

PN123

DR KELLY: That would be fine.

PN124

MR CORBOY: Certainly, your Honour.

PN125

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And Mr Djoneff will just have to be available if it is necessary.

PN126

MR CORBOY: I trust we will be able to resolve it, your Honour.

PN127

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I suspect you will, but we will re-list it for nine o'clock on 9 July. I know I have cut you short, Mr Corboy, but I think I understand enough to have been able to make the suggestion that I have made.

PN128

MR CORBOY: Thank you, your Honour. I was keen to try and get the parties together to try and resolve this.

PN129

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. The sooner I get off the bench, the quicker you can get together. We will adjourn until 9 July, but if it is resolved before then and you don't need a further hearing, please let my Associate know. Thank you.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 9 JULY 2003 [4.06pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #HSUA1 LETTER TO MR DJONEFF PN52
EXHIBIT #HSUA2 AWARD CLAUSE PN53
EXHIBIT #HSUA3 EXTRACT FROM PSYCHOLOGISTS AWARD NUMBER 4 1990 PN67