|
|
Home
| Databases
| WorldLII
| Search
| Feedback
Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 2, 16 St George's Tce, PERTH WA 6000
Tel:(08)9325 6029 Fax:(08)9325 7096
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N WT0530
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY
C2003/25
C2003/167
ALCOA WORLD ALUMINA AUSTRALIA
and
THE AUSTRALIAN WORKERS' UNION-
WEST AUSTRALIAN BRANCH
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re potential dismissal of
Mr K. Young
THE AUSTRALIAN WORKERS' UNION - WEST AUSTRALIAN
BRANCH
and
ALCOA WORLD ALUMINA AUSTRALIA
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re termination of
employment of a union member
PERTH
10.08 AM, TUESDAY, 1 JULY 2003
PN1
MR A.J. HEELAN: I appear on behalf of ALCOA World Alumina Australia, may it please the Commission.
PN2
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Mr Heelan.
PN3
MR M.D. LLEWELLYN: I appear on behalf of the Australian Workers' Union.
PN4
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Mr Llewellyn. This matter has been passed on to me by Senior Deputy President Polites. Who wants to tell me what it is all about, Mr Heelan?
PN5
MR HEELAN: Thank you sir. Sir, there has been some discussion between us as to who should go first. We have different views in relation to that. However, we are prepared to go first simply to avoid argument and any potential delay in the proceedings, and to expedite the hearing of the matter. However, we don't want to be prejudiced by attempting to accommodate the union's preference in that regard, and therefore we reserve the right, should it become necessary, to call further evidence. I do note that given the nature of this case we hope that that won't be necessary.
PN6
Your Honour, the only other issue was that the union had also agreed if we went first that we - we were proposing to call the Refinery Manager from the Wagerup refinery, Mr Bill Knight. The union also agreed that if we were to go first they would be happy if we could call Mr Knight immediately after the luncheon adjournment, or early afternoon, should you agree with that procedure. So, on that basis, we are happy to kick off, if that pleases the Commission.
PN7
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. What I propose is breaking for lunch at 12.30. We will only have an hour's lunch break from 12.30 till 1.30, if that is convenient for the parties. So would that suit, in terms of getting the gentleman you wish to get here for - after lunch?
PN8
MR HEELAN: I hope so, your Honour. We had made arrangements for him to be here at 2.00 pm. I think there is a fair chance it will be necessary - I think we would still be in our witnesses at that time and subject to your indulgence in the matter if we - if it would be possible to adjourn the hearing of one of the other witnesses to hear Mr Knight.
PN9
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Interpose Mr Knight?
PN10
MR HEELAN: Yes, and then he could go back to managing the refinery.
PN11
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN12
MR HEELAN: We had arranged for him to be here at 2. He is going to be contacted to see if it is possible for him to be here at 1.30. In any event, we don't perceive any delay to the proceedings through that, your Honour.
PN13
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, all right. Well, we will proceed on that basis unless some time during the course of the morning you tell me he can't get here till 2, we might reorganise the luncheon.
PN14
MR HEELAN: I certainly wasn't proposing that, sir.
PN15
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, all right, fine.
PN16
MR HEELAN: Thank you. Your Honour, I was proposing to provide a brief outline of the employer's case, then call our evidence. We have three witnesses, and then provide a closing submission after all of the evidence and the union's submission. If that proposed procedure pleases the Commission, I will now proceed with a brief outline of our case.
PN17
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Have the parties made any attempt to define the issues in terms of disputed issues of fact and things of that nature, or is there any agreement about the facts?
PN18
MR HEELAN: May I have a moment, your Honour?
PN19
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN20
MR HEELAN: The matter has a history, your Honour. It has been the subject of two conferences before the Commission. I think there is general agreement on the issues, but agreement cannot be reached on a resolution of the issues in terms of - the employer's position is that the behaviour of Mr Kim Young, a member of the upper - sorry, member of the union, warrants termination of employment. The union's position is that that punishment doesn't fit the crime.
PN21
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, let's proceed and we will see how we go on issues of fact.
PN22
MR HEELAN: Thank you, your Honour. As I've just noted, the matter concerns a member of the AWU, a Mr Kim Young, who is employed at ALCOAs Wagerup alumina refinery. The background to the matter is that, as a result of unauthorised absences from work and other issues, Mr Young was provided with a final written warning, dated 31 July 2001. That final written warning clarified that his employment could be terminated in the event of a continuation of AWOL, being absence without leave, or other unacceptable behaviour. Following that warning, Mr Young's supervisor did not approve flexibility for him to attend trotting meetings during working time, and on a number of occasions his supervisor rejected requests that Mr Young had made in that regard.
PN23
Following the final written warning in July 2001, management was led to believe that Mr Young's behaviour and approach to his work had changed to the required level. Then on Monday 3 February 2003 Mr Young absented himself from work without any authorisation during the course of the shift. On that day Mr Young participated at a trotting meeting during which time he should have been at work. That absence was without any necessary approval and was contrary to all requirements in the circumstances.
PN24
Management became aware of the 3 February unauthorised absence from work on the part of Mr Young as a result of another employee having requested and obtained approval to be absent from work for 2 hours during that shift. That other employee was either a part-owner or trainer of the horse that Mr Young was racing that day. The other employee did receive approval, or requested approval, and approval was granted on the basis of business needs being met through that other employee volunteering to make up the absence later that day. Subsequent to Mr Young's unauthorised absence from work on 3 February 2003, he was also absent from work on 4 February 2003 in circumstances where he had pre-planned to participate in a trotting meeting that day, and the company also became aware of Mr Young's failure to attend for work on Saturday 25 January 2003.
PN25
An investigation into his absenteeism record since the final warning of July 2001, demonstrated the commitments that he had made to participate at trotting meetings, which we understand had to be made some days earlier, coincided with around 10 occasions where paid sick leave and/or paid special family leave had been taken by him and in circumstances where his participation at those trotting meetings, or travel to them, would have involved at least some time which would otherwise have been work time. In relation to Mr Young's unauthorised absence from work on 3 February 2003 he was advised that it would be necessary for him to cease employment with ALCOA either voluntarily, or through dismissal.
PN26
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How was he advised of that?
PN27
MR HEELAN: At a meeting on 6 February, your Honour. In fact, the background of that meeting is that Mr Young was specifically questioned as to whether he had attended to any other activities - I'm sorry, I withdraw that. At the meeting on 6 February 2003, in relation to his absences from work, Mr Young advised management that he had, in relation to the 4 February absence, had family issues to deal with. That was also his eldest child's second day at high school. He was then specifically questioned as to whether he had attended to any other activities that day, to which he responded: no, because he was looking after his sick wife. He said that he had no other issues to discuss in relation to that day.
PN28
He was then confronted with evidence from the WA Trotting Commission, as well as an excerpt from The West Australian newspaper, both of which indicated that he had participated in a trotting meet that day. Consequently, and on that basis, management explained that the company stance was that he would be dismissed, effective immediately, or alternatively could resign. Now, the union put the matter in dispute, and those words have a particular connotation at ALCOA, but put the matter in dispute pursuant to industrial relations procedures prescribed by the ALCOA of Australia Wagerup Alumina Refinery Operators' Agreement 1995, and consequently the company agreed to the following approach: firstly, that an application be made to the Commission in an attempt to have the matter determined by the Commission; and secondly, whilst the matter was being determined by the Commission, Mr Young would remain on full pay and, subject to a direction to not attend work, so long as there was no industrial action of any kind.
PN29
Your Honour, the certified agreement has a particular procedure in relation to industrial relations procedures and the dealing with grievances, and in relation to matters of a disciplinary or termination of employment issue, it permits the union to "put the matter in dispute", which then leads to the employee staying on full pay whilst the matter is resolved here. And then the parties commit to abide by decisions etcetera. There was then a couple of conferences before the Commission. The matter was not able to be resolved, and that resulted on 9 June a letter being provided to Mr Young confirming the company's intention to terminate his employment. And it was that letter, which as I understand it, gave rise to the application made by the union.
PN30
In our submission, your Honour, Mr Young's actions amount to a breach of the duty of fidelity and good faith. They can, in our submission, also be regarded as part of the mutual duty of trust and confidence. That duty covers many obligations, such as attending for work on time and remaining until the end of the allotted period of employment, as well as performing one's work in a competent manner and honestly, as well as obeying lawful orders. In our submission, Mr Young put his interests in horses and trotting first, at the expense of his employment at ALCOA and, in our submission, Mr Young failed in his duty to the employer and that that warrants dismissal. Your Honour, without any further ado, I propose to call our first witness.
PN31
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I just wonder, Mr Heelan, if I could get some idea of how it is a person can leave the workplace in circumstances where nobody can pull him up for leaving the workplace.
PN32
MR HEELAN: Yes, I think that will come through from the evidence.
PN33
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.
PN34
MR HEELAN: Particularly the evidence of Mr Knight. ALCOA has a fairly unique approach and culture. It was underpinned - it commenced with arrangements negotiated around a decade ago, which were then included in certified agreements of this Commission. Essentially, a fairly unique procedure - there's a salarised approach to earnings, as well as a work teams approach, and there's an emphasis, a very strong emphasis, in the certified agreements on maintenance of the work team approach. The certified agreement contains a number of fairly novel provisions. Perhaps I might just touch on some of those, your Honour.
PN35
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN36
MR HEELAN: I might quote a few paragraphs from it. Under the aims of the agreement in clause 4B(iii), it states:
PN37
The objectives of the agreement are to develop and maintain the most productive, cooperative and harmonious working relationships possible.
PN38
Then in clause 4C, it states and I quote:
PN39
The parties recognise that to fully achieve these objectives it is necessary to work jointly towards creating a working environment that ...(reads)... In this environment, emphasis will be placed on team and personal development as well as commitment to the company's quality policy and programs.
PN40
And then in 4C it also says and I quote:
PN41
Within the context of team structures, employees must be motivated, empowered and have the skills, knowledge and competence to achieve optimum control of the process and produce outputs of world class quality with appropriate support and encouragement from within and outside the team.
PN42
I conclude that quote. Then over in clause 4(iv)(3), the agreement says and I quote, or the preamble wording says, "To this end, the parties agree on the need." And then clause 4(v)(3) says and I quote:
PN43
To remove all of the restrictive work practices to ensure that, subject to the limits of their skill and competence, employees undertake their whole job, as defined in appendix A, even where this requires working beyond or outside normal rostered hours.
PN44
Then in the principles of agreement, your Honour, in clause 5C, the agreement says and I quote - the preamble wording is:
PN45
The following principles will govern a relationship between the parties and the joint management of the aims of this agreement.
PN46
Then clause 5C says and I quote:
PN47
It is the duty of all parties to promote the development of trust, understanding and motivation within the operation.
PN48
And I conclude the quote. And then 5D says and I quote:
PN49
Honesty, mutual respect and a businesslike attitude and behaviour will prevail at all times.
PN50
And I conclude the quote. Your Honour, the agreement then contains a number of fairly novel provisions in relation to the remuneration arrangements. I might just touch on a few of those if I may. In clause 7B under: Scope of Work, which, sorry, clause 7 is the contract of employment, and clause 7B under: Scope of Work, the agreement says and I quote:
PN51
Employees will perform work as defined in appendix A of this agreement in any area of the operation that the company may from time to time reasonably require.
PN52
I conclude the quote, although that is not all that is said in 7B. Then in clause 7C(i), the agreement says and I quote:
PN53
An employee is expected and required to attend work during normal rostered hours and to work any additional hours that are necessary to ...(reads)... team, in accordance with the aims outlined in clause 4 and the job position descriptions in appendix A of this agreement.
PN54
And I conclude the quote. But then in clause 7C(ii), the agreement says and I quote:
PN55
Except in circumstances specified in paragraph 3 hereof, an employee may not be absent from work on any normal rostered day or shift without prior approval of the immediate supervision to do so.
PN56
And (iii) says and I quote:
PN57
An employee not attending for such duty except on approved paid leave will lose pay for the actual time of the attendance.
PN58
And I conclude the quote. Then over in clause 9: Rights of Pay, under (A): General Principles, at clause 9A(i), the agreement says and I quote:
PN59
The pay rates expressed in subclause B hereof provide for all conditions of employment in the company, with the exception of the ...(reads)... agreement, no allowances, loadings or premiums of any form will be paid for specific workplace conditions or variations in working time.
PN60
And I conclude the quote. Then in paragraph 9A(ii) the agreement refers to the rates being as - the rates expressed as relating to the job positions. Then, if one then turns to the hours of work clause, which is clause 11 of the agreement, your Honour, it is split into two parts, the day workers and shift workers - but in terms of day workers, at clause 11A, includes - 11A(i) includes the following provision, the second half of it, and I quote:
PN61
However, day workers are expected and required to work additional time as and when necessary to fully and effectively carry out their whole job on a day to day basis. Such additional time will not attract any payment.
PN62
And I conclude the quote.
PN63
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Young was a day worker, was he?
PN64
MR HEELAN: I'm sorry sir?
PN65
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Young was a day worker - is a day worker?
PN66
MR HEELAN: He varied. I might just touch on the shift work, if I may, too, your Honour.
PN67
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.
PN68
MR HEELAN: Then in clause B(iv), sorry, (vi), towards the end of that, that says and I quote:
PN69
However, shift workers are expected and required to work additional time as and when necessary to fully and effectively carry out their whole job on a day-to-day basis. Such additional time will not attract any payment.
PN70
And I conclude the quote. Then the final paragraph of the agreement I will refer you to, your Honour, is in clause 13: Meal Breaks Outside Normal Hours and Rest Periods, and that is a provision which is clearly intended to prescribe entitlements to employees where they do additional work. Clause 13F is of particular importance and it says and I will quote:
PN71
The employees bound by this agreement guarantee to provide shift cover as required for both planned and unplanned absences. Responsibility for ensuring that shift coverage is provided rests with the employees concerned.
PN72
I conclude the quote. I wasn't proposing to go to the industrial relations procedures, your Honour, but in essence the agreement is that the culture at ALCOA, and you will hear this from Mr Knight, the refinery manager, this afternoon, the culture is built around - it is a culture which is different - a cultural approach which is different to the overwhelming majority of other workplaces. An emphasis on work teams, on individual responsibility, the employees have - or the Wagerup refinery in particular, is structured organisationally around a philosophy which involves minimal supervision by comparison with traditional workplaces, high levels of flexibility and autonomy for employees, for example, increased accountability on individual employees to take ownership and responsibility for their performance, their work standards, their safety, etcetera.
PN73
The employees engaged are highly capable and remuneration is well above that in the overwhelming majority of other workplaces, in my submission. And so the approach at ALCOA and at the Wagerup refinery in particular is different to what one would find in a lot of other workplaces, your Honour.
PN74
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It seems that the arrangements at this workplace are quite novel in a lot of respects, in terms of the relationship between employees and the union and the employer.
PN75
MR HEELAN: I think that is a fair comment, your Honour.
PN76
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN77
MR HEELAN: I mean, there's a long history, your Honour, of a cooperative relationship between the employer and the union, and the unions. The workplace's arrangements are - entitlements of employees - are underpinned by certified agreements, I think in every respect, certainly for blue collar employees, albeit some of those agreements are way beyond their term and not even certified under the current Act, but they still operate. Those agreements confer ongoing wage increases, I think at 6-monthly intervals. It is a quite different approach but it is one that has worked, very effectively, I would suggest for both parties. But it is unique.
PN78
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN79
MR HEELAN: Or it is different, your Honour.
PN80
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Did you want to say anything more about it, or did you want to call your witnesses?
PN81
MR HEELAN: Not unless you wanted me to, sir.
PN82
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I think that is - what powers are you expecting me to exercise, or in what way do you expect me to determine this matter? Just as a matter of equity and fairness, or as a matter of legal principle? Because I note you say in fact Mr Young has been in breach of his duty of fidelity and good faith. Those are really legal principles that are applied in unlawful termination cases and do you wish me to apply those principles?
PN83
MR HEELAN: If I could backstep a moment, your Honour.
PN84
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN85
MR HEELAN: The proceedings are a little unusual, including with us going first, including with the company having made the initial application. The making of that initial application by the company on my instructions was a matter of good faith. It was an arrangement that I understand Mr Dicks, the President of the Union, who is present in Court, was a party to. It was something undertaken by management just to get the ball rolling and to expedite the matter being brought to the Commission and that is pretty much the way things work at ALCOA. The intent was to get it before the Commission so the Commission could umpire the issue. Unfortunately that application did not lead to a conclusion, or a resolution of the matter, and it was very clear that the parties weren't going to agree, or wouldn't be able to reach agreement.
PN86
I suppose to bring the matter to a head, the matter had a fairly unique history, from memory it went from February, so from around 6 February, Mr Young remained on full pay but not doing any work, subject to a direction to stay home whilst the matter was resolved, either through his termination of employment, or through the matter being brought here. When it came to early June, the matter - there still seemed to be no prospect of the matter being resolved, and so the company provided a letter to Mr Young confirming its intention to - or its decision to terminate his employment, as the company had advised Mr Young at the meeting on 6 February.
PN87
Then on 9 June the company gave the letter saying: look, confirming our intention to terminate your employment, I think it provided a bit of a gap and said: well, you know, that will happen in a few days time and it nominated a - or it did nominate a date the termination would have effect. And the sole purpose of that was that it would enable the union to then activate the fairly unique provisions in the industrial relations procedures which would enable the matter to be brought here and, as I understand it, that was the reason for the union's application. And the intent was, with that application, that the matter would come here pursuant to clause 18B(vi) of the certified agreement which states, if I may quote it:
PN88
If the company takes a decision to dismiss an employee, the union may put the matter in dispute. If the union subsequently refers the matter ...(reads)... determined. The continuation of pay and entitlements will be on the condition that no industrial action is taken over the matter.
PN89
I conclude the quote. In my submission the union's application would very clearly fit within that provision. And the intent of the application made by the company is that it would also - now, it could either - I think the company's application could either be said to have, or be intended to fit within that provision. Or, alternatively, within the provisions in, or prescribed by clause 18(a), which is the grievance procedure, which provides as follows. I might just quote two parts of that if I may, your Honour. Clause 18(a)(iii)(4) states and I quote:
PN90
If the issue cannot be resolved through this mechanism, it will then be referred to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission for prevention and settlement of the dispute.
PN91
And I conclude the quote. The mechanism to which it refers is a fairly traditional approach of going up the chain in trying to resolve disputes, the agreement then goes on, in clause 18(a)(iv) and I quote:
PN92
Until the matter is determined in accordance with the above procedure, work will continue normally.
PN93
And I conclude the quote. If I may just have a minute, your Honour. Your Honour, the intention was that once the matter was "put into dispute", that the status quo would remain, being that Mr Young would remain on full pay.
PN94
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN95
MR HEELAN: I can't just put my finger on that at the moment.
PN96
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, but I gather that the company, or Alcoa, proposed terminating Mr Young's employment on the ground that he had breached, or it was alleged he had breached, his duty of fidelity and good faith. That was the ground for terminating his employment, was it?
PN97
MR HEELAN: It was put in layman's terms, your Honour.
PN98
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN99
MR HEELAN: You know, you were given a final warning in July 2001. We, the management had been given to understand that you had - that Mr Young had complied with the terms of the final warning, had lifted his game and had improved to the required level. There then, in a short space of time, are three incidents: one on 3 February which was the start of it, an incidence of AWOL. There was then a incident on the 4th of February where he just didn't turn up for his shift because he was busy racing his trotters.
PN100
And there was also then identified an absence from work on - I think it was 25 January, and the company's position was, well, look you have clearly breached the terms of the final warning. You have breached your contract of employment, you have acted dishonestly, you are out of here. One way or the other, as I understand it, it was left open. Either employment would be terminated or, alternatively, he could resign. My understanding, your Honour, is that termination was proposed to be on the basis of payment in lieu of notice as opposed to summarily.
PN101
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Thank you very much Mr Heelan. If you want to call your witnesses now, we will proceed on that basis.
PN102
PN103
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I note what might have been witnesses, where they have left the hearing room. Could you leave the door open please, it is a public hearing. I know it has been closed out of respect for the integrity of the evidence that is being given, but I think it is better if we leave it open, thanks very much.
PN104
MR LLEWELLYN: I think it was actually being closed so that they could not hear what was going on.
PN105
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I appreciate that, but I think they will just have to move away a bit from the door so they can't hear what is going on. Yes, Mr Heelan.
PN106
MR HEELAN: Thank you, sir. Mr Maughan what is your position with Alcoa?---I am the Electrical and Instrumentation Maintenance Supervisor at the Wagerup Refinery.
PN107
And how long have you been employed by Alcoa?---I have been with Alcoa for 14 years and 9 months.
PN108
And what positions have you held within that time?---I started with the company in a central engineering department for approximately 4 years, covering Pinjarra Refinery, Hedges Gold and some activity at Wagerup. And for the past 10 years I have been in the current position down at Wagerup.
PN109
And what are the responsibilities of your current position?---The - I have A - I am the Statutory Electrical Supervisor under the Mines Regulations. That is an appointed position. But in addition to that, with respect to the management of maintenance in the electrical and instrumentation area at the refinery, I have got a technical leadership with - role, as well as the role with respect to people management and the performance of maintenance work.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN110
And can you please explain the work structure in your area at the Wagerup Refinery?---We have a team of 39 electrical and instrument tradespeople and three trades assistants. They are supported by six electrical and instrumentation maintenance coordinators, as opposed to a foreman role, have a coordinating or coaching type position as a staff - staff supervisory role. These teams have works in area - designated areas around the refinery and they work in semi-autonomous work teams.
PN111
What is the calibre of the employees?---Some of the key things we look for when recruiting is the self-starting, self-motivated people who don't just look at the work that they have - are to be given for a day, actually look at the refinery in the way that it is operating and, and seek out the best practice and the best things that they can be doing and feed that back through their coordinator and coach. But on a day to day basis, there is also an emphasis on planning work for the work teams and so there is lists of work to be done. But, sorry, for the calibre of the people, those sorts of people who are self-starting, self-motivating and, and not only take direction with respect to work, but also look at the work that is required to run the refinery in the best way.
PN112
What sort of turnover of employees is there?---We've had in - I - in my - in the electrical team we have had a very low turnover. We have had some additions to the ranks as the refinery has grown. I don't have a figure, but it - at 10 per cent would probably be close to the mark.
PN113
Per year?---No, sorry. Much lower than that per year. Down in the twos and threes.
PN114
Are the teams - is there any aspect of self-management with the teams?---The self-management on a day to day basis is quite important. We have a prestart meetings on - everyday of the week, or most days of the week as far as a connection between the coordinator and the work team. But we have a roster system such that on weekends we - we don't have that formally in place. We have a rostered person who does the rounds and meets our obligations under the Mines Regulations. But during the day, having had a work list for the week
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
put in front of people, we - the order of events is somewhat determined by the work team themselves. Depending on availability of the equipment, other interferences with other work groups. And they don't rely on the coordinator to - to make those determinations on a hour by hour - on an hour by hour basis.
PN115
How do the levels of responsibility and authority of your employees compare with those in other workplaces?---I guess we require a pretty high level of responsibility. I think the coordinator - the coaching role, is - is the key to the thing that has been - has made Wagerup different. It is not a directive foreman/work team type of - of environment.
PN116
And how does the pay of employees, or the remuneration of employees compare with other workplaces?---I guess it is commensurate with the mining industry, but in the typical communities that I and many of the employees live, it is considerably higher than the sorts of salaries and wages which people would earn in the south-west corridor where we operate, yes.
PN117
And do most employees live locally?---Between the Mandurah and Bunbury, that strip. But I - yes, there is 30 to 40 per cent are living within the Waroona and Harvey district, which is where the Wagerup Refinery is located.
PN118
Who would be the biggest employer in that area?---I guess that is hard to say, but certainly - certainly Alcoa with the Wagerup Refinery, would be one of the largest. We have got some competition with the local abattoir and the Worsley Alumina Refinery in that area as well.
PN119
I have asked that the witness be shown a document please, your Honour.
PN120
Could you identify that document please, Mr Maughan?---This is a standard attachment of the employment contract that we have at Wagerup.
PN121
Do you know whose this is?---This is signed by Kim Young.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN122
Could I ask you to have a look at clause 14 of that document?---Yes.
PN123
Do you consider that Mr Young has complied with the requirements of clause 14?---No, I do not. There are a number of points there with - with respect to refusal to follow instructions of a coordinator and other supervisors, frequent tardiness, or absence from work, leaving own department or plant during work hours without permission, are the things which are - are clearly evident given that the front end of that clause is that there is a:
PN124
I understand that the following actions on premises owned or used by the company are strictly forbidden.
PN125
So you are referring to what, clauses 14(p),(q)?---(p), (q), (r), and yes (p), (q) and (r) I have given to you there.
PN126
How about team?---Yes, in relation to the matter of performing personal work in company time, we have looked at that with respect to the fact that Mr Young was within his hobby, but earning, earning an income outside of work during work time - so outside of the work premises during work time.
PN127
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What was his hobby?
PN128
THE WITNESS: His hobby is racing trotting horses - racing and training trotting horses.
PN129
As a driver, or?---On my understanding is that Mr Young does drive as well as train.
PN130
MR HEELAN: Do you understand that Mr - I withdraw that. Do you know whether or not Mr Young owns trotting horses?---I don't specifically know that he owns trotting horses, no.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN131
Mr Maughan, I ask that you have a look at paragraph 14(i). Do you think Mr Young has complied with that provision?---I guess with respect to the events that has brought us to where we are today, we - I am led to believe that Mr Young was sick on one of those days, but we have never seen any records for that. He has then come back in some of the conversations and said: well, I'll make that day up elsewhere. There are some aspects of - of the activity that Mr Young has displayed that may be interpreted that way.
PN132
I would ask you to have a look at paragraph 3. Has he complied with that?---Definitely no.
PN133
How about paragraph 4?---No, he definitely has not complied with that.
PN134
PN135
MR HEELAN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN136
Mr Maughan, can you identify the document that you have in front of you now?---Yes, this is the written final warning which was the outcome of a meeting between Mr Young's direct supervisor, Mr John Dobinson and our Human Resources Officer, Simone Wiltshire dated 31 July 2001.
PN137
Were you involved in the preparation of this document?---No, I was not.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN138
How did you become aware of this document?---After the events of the 3rd and 4 February when we became aware that Mr Young had not reported to work, the circumstances were such that when escalated to myself, I was concerned that this was a potentially fairly serious matter and went through the normal process of raising that matter with our Human Resources support. In the process of doing that, I became aware through our Human Resources, that - that Mr Young had in fact had a final written warning on his file and I became aware of it as a result of that.
PN139
Can you explain the outcome expected from this final warning?---Yes, the - the intentions were that Mr Young would improve his work performance.
PN140
MR LLEWELLYN: I object to that. The witness has said he had no part in making it up at all. How can he know what the intentions were - he wasn't there?
PN141
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Heelan that is right. If Mr Maughan had no part in compiling the document, he could hardly have any understanding about what the intention was.
PN142
MR HEELAN: Yes sir.
PN143
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean, if there is any intention to be read from the document, then that is something I should do about it perhaps.
PN144
MR HEELAN: Yes sir.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN145
Prior to becoming - I withdraw that. Prior to you becoming involved in proposed disciplinary action for Mr Young, did you consider his performance was under question?---Yes I did. I had some personal evidence of Mr Young not being available at a - at an occasion where we needed some trades assistant support and I asked a question, "Where is Mr Young?" And there was no response from the work team and we proceeded without him. Other than that my other experiences were indirect anecdotal evidence of not being able to find Mr Young at different times, coming from a number of the coordinating group and occasionally anecdotal stuff - comments from work teams. And so whilst we hadn't sought out - I certainly hadn't personally sought out direct evidence of that and chased those things through to a conclusion, certainly in the back of my mind there was some doubt there.
PN146
What comments had been made to you?---Mainly along the lines of - there were some sort of a - well, along the lines of: "where is Kim?" was a common question that people asked. And that, in itself, wasn't, wasn't sufficient to want to go and check things out, but it sort of cast doubt as to where Kim was at certain periods of the day.
PN147
And what sort of people would ask that question?---Generally speaking, the coordinating group, because we would be seeking that we don't - we only have three trades assistants positions in our group and so they were at a bit of a premium on occasions. And generally from the electrical coordinating group seeking out - seeking Kim.
PN148
While I think of it, your Honour, I might ask that this document be marked.
PN149
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, can I just ask who is John Dobinson?
PN150
MR HEELAN: Mr Dobinson was the supervisor of Mr Young at the time. He would be our next witness.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN151
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, right.
PN152
MR LLEWELLYN: I have no problem with it being marked as evidence. We will be referring to it as well.
PN153
PN154
MR HEELAN: Thank you sir.
PN155
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN156
MR HEELAN: What happened on 3 February this year, Mr Maughan?---On 3 February I had just returned from 4 weeks' leave. I was in my office in the morning covering with - covering the events of the previous 4 weeks with the person who relieved my position.
PN157
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Who was that?
PN158
THE WITNESS: A Mr Eastick.
PN159
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, sorry.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN160
THE WITNESS: And I guess during that period of the day, it was a normal sort of a day with some handovers. At approximately 9.30 Mr Eastick and I broke for a cup of tea. We had been meeting for an hour at that stage and we continued to meet until about 10.30. During that period of time, whilst I was getting a cup of tea, I met Mr Young in the corridors of the electrical workshop and in fact spoke to him briefly - just greeted and - because I was basically back from leave. And, yes, there was really - the only conversation that - sorry the conversation with Mr Young, there, at that time, was that I hoped to catch up with him later in the week and I had some intentions of talking about some - some work accountability that I wanted to put ahead - put in front of him. And that - but that was the end of a very short conversation.
PN161
MR HEELAN: What time was that?---That was approximately 9.30 am.
PN162
Did Mr Young remain on site for the remainder of the shift?---Well, to the best of my knowledge he - at the time, we saw him at work and we understood he was at work that day. Subsequent to that, we - on the afternoon of 4 February, Mr Eastick had a phone call from another coordinator, Mr Duncan. Mr Duncan was seeking Mr Eastick's permission to have Mr Young come and drive a forklift in his area in that - during that afternoon.
PN163
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, what was that again?
PN164
THE WITNESS: My apologies?
PN165
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I didn't quite catch what you said, I am sorry?---Mr Eastick, who had been relieving in my position - he had a phone call from Mr Duncan, who was another electrical coordinator.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN166
Yes?---And Mr Duncan was requesting for Mr Young to be made available to come and drive a forklift to carry out a task in his area. Mr Eastick advised him that Mr Young had not reported to work on the Tuesday, 4 February. He was vaguely aware, or indirectly aware, that he had rung in sick and I guess they - they made arrangements that they would hopefully see Mr Young on Wednesday and do that job then. In the process of that conversation Mr Duncan said to Mr Eastick, "You might wish to check to see where Mr Young was yesterday", being Monday the 3rd. And it was at that point in time that Mr Eastick became aware that Mr Young may well have been at a trot meeting and Mr Eastick then immediately escalated that to me, because that was quite contrary to what we understood had happened on the Monday. And then we chose to then go and investigate further.
PN167
MR HEELAN: And what did the investigation reveal?---Given the - the nature of what had come to light, because we had actually seen Mr Young at work and he - we know that Mr Young had been - had sat with another electrical coordinator and had ample opportunity to talk to a number of different people in that role, that if he had in fact gone off site, then that was a pretty serious matter. Before proceeding with that we needed to establish some actual facts in the matter, because we were really working on the basis of - of secondary comment that he may have been at that trot meeting. So investigated by ringing the WA Trotting Commission and finding out whether in fact that information was available on the public record.
PN168
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where was the trotting meeting that day?
PN169
THE WITNESS: The trotting meeting was at the Pinjarra trot track - trotting track.
PN170
Yes. On the 2nd was it?---No, on Monday, 3 February.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN171
Yes?---The Trotting Association was able to provide a photocopy of the results from - I am not sure exactly which race, but the race run approximately 1 o'clock and Mr Young was driving a horse in that race. And I guess - that information was on the public record from the WA Trotting Commission.
PN172
MR HEELAN: How far is Pinjarra from your workplace?---Pinjarra is approximately 45 minutes from the Wagerup Refinery by direct travel.
PN173
And was there anything printed in the newspaper?---About that particular trot meeting?
PN174
Yes?---I didn't follow that up. The - I am assuming that there would have been race results in the newspaper. However, I didn't rely on that. I actually went to the Trotting Commission to get their - a photocopy of the formal race results.
PN175
What time does Mr Young - Sorry, what are Mr Young's usual work hours?---Normal start time is 7 am, finishing time is 3.30, and that is on a 9 day fortnight basis where every second Monday is a rostered day off.
PN176
And based on your investigation, was he at work for all of the shift that day?---The investigation indicated that Mr Young left the Wagerup Refinery at or before 11 am, which - and I guess subsequent to this on our meeting on February, February the 6th, Kim - Mr Young did in fact state that he left work around about 11 o'clock.
PN177
On what day?---On Monday the 3rd. He left work - he left the refinery at or before 11 am on Monday the 3rd.
PN178
Of February?---Of February.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN179
This year?---Yes.
PN180
Did he have approval to do that?---He had no approval to do that.
PN181
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It wasn't his rostered day off?
PN182
THE WITNESS: No, it was a rostered day on. He was rostered to be at work that day and we had in fact seen him at work that day. I had spoken to him at work that day.
PN183
MR HEELAN: Would an employee wanting to leave site be required to obtain prior approval?---Absolutely, and not only approval but the prior approval is - the intention of that is it is somewhat prior to the event that we would expect that approval to be requested.
PN184
What if someone came to you, I withdraw that, what if Mr Young had come to you on 3 February saying: look, in an hours time I need to be racing at the trots, can I have the time off; what would your reaction be?---I would have been very uncomfortable and rather annoyed at being requested at such short notice. I would have asked some more questions and I honestly believe the answer was, I would have said no.
PN185
I would ask that the witness be shown another document please, sir. Mr Maughan, could you identify that document please?---This is a - a report that Mr Dobinson wrote to file and gave to our Human - Human Resources support, Simone Wiltshire, as a summary of the way that he had seen Kim's - Mr Young's progress since the formal final warning on 31 July 2001. This was an update of his progress since then prior to Mr Dobinson leaving the Wagerup Refinery and, via a promotional position, moving to the Pinjarra Refinery.
PN186
I am sorry, when did you become aware of it?---I became aware of this on or about 6 February.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN187
Have you had the opportunity of reading it?---Yes.
PN188
And is Mr Young's behaviour in relation to the incidents on 3 and 4 February this year consistent with what is stated in this memorandum?---No.
PN189
Your Honour, I would ask that it be marked please.
PN190
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Whose Simone Wiltshire?---Ms Wiltshire is our - one of our two Human Resources support officer on site and so she has that role with - with the sort of documentation that this is, that we have here, placing things on people's files etcetera.
EXHIBIT #A3 MEMORANDUM TO SIMONE WILTSHIRE FROM JOHN DOBINSON DATED 28/11/2002
PN191
MR HEELAN: Thank you, sir. Sir, I might note that Ms Wiltshire is actually in Court at the moment.
PN192
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Giving evidence or not?
PN193
MR HEELAN: No, sir. Well, not our intention anyway. Mr Maughan, what are the requirements where an employee wants to claim leave?---Well, I guess the first thing is - is prior notice, I guess that leave can be in many different forms. Annual leave is clearly a request prior to the event, with respect to sick leave there is a requirement to contact their immediate supervisor to advise them on the day that they won't be attending work and then to follow that up with a doctor's note to record the fact they had an illness. Does that answer your question?
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN194
Partially, but what is special family leave?---Special family leave is a - some flexibility in our workforce with respect to illnesses which may not be of the direct employee but of one of their direct dependants or a partner. That if they, in a situation where they need to be the primary carer for the day that via a doctor's note from the person who - for the person who was ill can be evidence that that person - the employee had to be the primary carer and that would be accepted as a special family sick leave day.
PN195
And is special family leave paid leave or unpaid leave?---That is paid leave.
PN196
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is it only in respect of illness in the family?---I am trying to think of examples where it would - I believe it is only in - in - with respect to - to illness or, yes, some sort of disorder.
PN197
MR HEELAN: In terms of special family leave, is there a requirement for prior approval?---The conditions for special family leave would be similar to, in many circumstances, similar to where the individual - the employee was - was ill, in that some of these things can't be pre-planned, but prior notification on the day of the absence that this would be occurring and then following up with that - a - a doctor's note. If there was an event such as a planned specialist appointment or something like that, which was in fact known about then it would be expected that some days notice would be given that that day was going to be taken off and the subsequent doctor's note would be provided.
PN198
Was Mr Young's absence on 3 February consistent or in accordance with requirements?---No.
PN199
Was Mr Young's absence on 4 February this year consistent with or in accordance with requirements?---On the 4th of February we do believe that Mr Young telephoned his work team and made them aware that he was ill. The information was passed on later in that day to Mr Eastick that Mr Young hadn't turned up to work that day because of illness. So that was - I appreciate that since then Mr Young has said that he - his wife was ill, but that specific information wasn't transferred through to Mr Eastick. Subsequent to that we have never seen a doctor's note for that day.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN200
How did management become aware of the absence on 3 February?---In a round about way. As mentioned earlier, on the 4th of February Mr Eastick got a phone call from Mr Duncan requesting that Mr Young be available to drive a forklift and Mr Duncan then mentioned to Mr Eastick that you might wish to check to see where Mr Young was on Monday. Mr Eastick has the office next door to me and we were sort of having this discussion and the both of us had some disbelief that there was any issue because we had both spoken to - sorry, both seen Mr Young and I had actually spoken to Mr Young on that Monday morning. Mr Duncan then indicated that one of his employees, an electrician in his area, had requested some time off, specifically two hours, during the middle of the day on that Monday so that he could attend the Pinjarra trot meeting to watch, I believe, one of his horses race. The circumstances, again, were at fairly short notice, the co-ordinator reviewed what - what work was on that day, the employee, the electrician, indicated that he would work, come back to work and work two hours at the end of that day to finish some things off. That suited the requirements of the co-ordinator, Mr Duncan, and he approved those two - that two hour break in the middle of the day. In general conversation, given the nature of the request to attend a trot meeting, there was some discussion about horse racing or trotting racing and during that conversation Mr Duncan became aware that Mr Young was probably actually driving that horse because of a - a working relationship in the trotting industry that - whether Mr Young trains or drives I am not sure but the evidence suggested that Mr Young was in fact driving the horse, part owned or owned by the electrician who requested the two hours off during the middle of the day.
PN201
And did the electrician have prior approval?---The electrician had prior approval, albeit at short notice, but the - the co-ordinator did have opportunity to check his workload for the day and there was prior commitment from the electrician to - to in fact make up that time that day, which was done.
PN202
What does that mean, what do you mean by that: make up the time that day?---The two hours that he took off in - during the middle of the day, he in fact worked those two hours between 5.15 and 7.15 that afternoon or that evening.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN203
Would he be paid for that?---He would just be paid a normal day.
PN204
So would he receive any additional payment?---There is no additional payment for that.
PN205
Was Mr young's, I will withdraw that, was there another unauthorised absence on 4 February?---Yes. The absence on 4 February, again, it is - it is linked with the fact that Mr Young has indicated that he had a family sick leave situation in the morning, which he indicated he has phoned in and we've got evidence to suggest that he did do that, but starting to see a pattern I talked to Mr Eastick about trot meetings and we asked ourselves, surely he wouldn't be racing horses again on Tuesday. And that was some - just asking ourselves to maybe go and check this a little bit further. I obtained a copy of the West Australian newspaper on that Tuesday afternoon and the race meeting clearly showed that at 1610, race 1 at Bunbury on that day that Mr Young was in fact listed to - to drive that - to drive a horse in that race.
PN206
I guess, somewhat foreseeing that we may - may end up here one day, I acknowledged the fact that 4.10 is after Mr Young's normal finishing time of 3.30 on a day and basically I checked with the WA Trotting Commission their rules and regulations with respect to when he would need to get to the track and then calculated the times or estimates the time that Mr Young would require to leave the Wagerup Refinery to meet his commitments to the - to that race 1 at Bunbury. I estimated that he would need to leave the refinery at approximately 1.00 o'clock that day. The reality is he didn't do that because he actually didn't front to work that day at all.
PN207
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How far is Bunbury from Wagerup?---Bunbury is 60 kilometres from the Wagerup Refinery and I guess my estimations were based on the fact that the horses are not in fact paddocked at the Wagerup Refinery, they are - it would be at - in Pinjarra, near Mr Young's home and I drew those conclusions, sorry, made that estimation based on that.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN208
MR HEELAN: What are the Trotting Commission requirements?---The requirements are for country race meetings that a - a horse must be on site 60 minutes prior to race start and for Gloucester Park it is 75 minutes prior to race start.
PN209
Thank you. In the course of your investigation did you also identify an issue in relation to Saturday, 25 January 2003?---I guess, yes, as - yes, we did. The - a pattern was emerging so we dug a little bit deeper, Mr Eastick was filling in for - in my position, he is the relief electrical supervisor at the time of the 25th of January. There was a relief co-ordinator in what is known as operation centre 2 where Mr Young worked, he, in relieving in that position, was asked by Mr Young on the 22nd of January if he would be able to take, re-roster or take off the 23rd of January which was a Thursday and substitute or - or work that day in lieu on the - Saturday the 25th of January.
PN210
So it was the swap of a Thursday for a Saturday. The relief co-ordinator or the substitute co-ordinator in that area was uncomfortable with that request on the basis that this was unusual and not what he was used to dealing with. Mr Young - he has told me that Mr Young said that that is a common practice and it - it would be okay to swap a day for a day, even though Mr Young was going to be working a Saturday to make up for that. The co-ordinator approved that for him to not attend work on the normal roster on Thursday the 22nd and to in fact come and work on the 25th.
PN211
The relief co-ordinator being uncomfortable with this situation escalated it to the - the relieving electrical supervisor just to make him aware that this situation had arisen so that he wasn't the only owner of that information. Mr Eastick asked a - the co-ordinator who was covering the weekend roster to make sure that he in fact saw Mr Young on - on site that day. The follow up of that didn't occur immediately and on the 4th, sorry, the 4th or 5th of February Mr Eastick followed that up. Mr Duncan, who was the rostered co-ordinator on the 25th of January that weekend indicated that, whilst he didn't see Mr Young on site, he couldn't say categorically that he was not there.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN212
Subsequent to that on the - sorry, on the 6th of February we asked Mr Young if in fact he was on site on the 6th of - on the 25th of January and he said that he was not, he didn't - didn't meet his commitment to make up that day.
PN213
Do you know what he did that day?---No I don't know specifically what he did during the day. I am aware that he had a trot meeting that night.
PN214
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What, on the 25th?---On the 25th.
PN215
MR HEELAN: As a result of all that went on, did you cause a more thorough investigation of Mr Young's absenteeism record to be undertaken?---Yes. I obtained his personal file over a - sorry, obtained his personal file and looked back through some of the absenteeism, the sick leave requests that he had made over that - over the previous years.
PN216
And what were the results of your investigation?---There was some indication that there was a some level of correlation between when trot meetings occurred, where Mr Young participated in those trot meetings, and - and days where he had provided the company with a doctor's certificate, either the - the day after or the day of that meeting. We did note that a number of those meetings were in the evening and - but we were still concerned that for him to have actually made it to those meetings, to the start, that he may have actually left work early on those days.
PN217
If he had been at work?---If he had been at work.
PN218
And based on your investigations would any of Mr Young's non-attendance at work have been premeditated?---Yes. Mainly that comes from the - the fact that the horses are nominated for races, not being totally familiar with the trotting industry, but somewhere between four and six days prior to the event and the acceptance of those nominations occur somewhere between three and four days before that race. So somewhere between three and four days prior to
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
a commitment to race a horse, Mr Young would have been in a position to come to his immediate supervision and request that he had this commitment and could he find some way of being able to re-roster or - or substitute some time so that he could meet that commitment. He would be entitled to make that request, he wouldn't necessarily get a positive response.
PN219
In light of his final warning would it be more likely or less likely that he would receive a favourable response?---Clearly he would not receive a favourable response.
PN220
Now, did you meet with Mr Young over these issues?---Yes, we did - I did and on Thursday the 6th of February we convened a meeting, Mr Steve Price from the AWU, a shop steward, joined myself, Simone Wiltshire and Colin Eastick where we - we discussed the matters of the 3rd of February, the 4th of February and the 25th of January.
PN221
And what was Mr Young's attitude to the 4 February issue at that meeting?---His concern was that we were being - that he had expressed that it was a - his wife was ill that morning and he also told us that his daughter was on her second day of high school and he had a need to - need to be there to support that activity and that we were being fairly hard or harsh bringing that to his attention. I guess - - -
PN222
Bringing what to his attention?---Well, that we were suggesting that he had not attended work without authorisation. He felt that he had met his commitments with respect to phoning his work team but the reality is I - I still haven't seen a doctor's note for that day.
PN223
Did he contact the supervisor?---No, he didn't contact the supervisor.
PN224
Did he contact a co-ordinator?---No, he did not contact a co-ordinator.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN225
Who should he have contacted?---The - the arrangements after the 31st of July 2001 final warning was that Mr Young was to make every effort to contact a co-ordinator on site if he was to - to have an absence and that included his sick leave for himself or family sick leave or any other absence. He was not to rely on his team members to pass on that message.
PN226
And at that meeting on 6 February in relation to the 4 February absence did Mr Young volunteer that he was at the trots in the afternoon?---No, he did not. We had - given that Mr Young had said to us that he was - had a cause for a family sick leave application for that day, Ms Wiltshire asked Mr Young on a - more than one occasion did he have anything else to tell us about his activities on that Tuesday given that Mr Young's brief to us was that his wife was ill, he had commitments with his daughter with high school and - but predominantly with his wife's illness that he was the primary carer for the day and was unable to attend work. And so subsequent to that Ms Wiltshire asked Mr Young on more than one occasion: is there anything that you wish to tell us about that Tuesday; and he indicated that there was not.
PN227
Was he upset that you were questioning him about his activities that day?---Yes, he was. I believe he felt that he met his commitments by ringing his work team, that he was going to be ill that day and he would square things away later with respect to any formalities.
PN228
But in terms of what he said he was doing that day, was he upset?---Due to the fact that the cause, as Mr Young stated to us, was that his wife was ill and that he needed to be there and assist her in the morning that he felt that we were being fairly heartless pursuing down that path.
PN229
Because his wife was sick?---Because his wife was ill.
PN230
And was he then confronted with any evidence in relation to trot meets that day?---We then - yes, we then presented to Mr Young - by this stage Mr Dicks had joined us in the later part of the meeting.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN231
Who is Mr Dicks?---Mr Dicks is the, I would say the convener for the AWU, the senior convener for the AWU at the Australian Workers Union at Wagerup Refinery. Mr Dicks had joined us by this stage and Mr Price and we presented him with, by this stage I had obtained from the WA Trotting Commission a print out, sorry, a facsimile of the race results for the 14 race at Bunbury on the 4th of February which clearly stated that Mr Young had been driving in that race. It was just a question of establishing the direct link between what was published in the paper as what was planned to happen to in fact establish what did happen and, again, I was reasonably convinced that the WA Trotting Commission results are on the public record for the TAB type issues.
PN232
And, Mr Maughan, if someone took, if an employee took paid time off work for special family leave purposes for an appointment that would require say two hours in the morning, would the employee be required to attend work for the balance of the day or does the company just given them a free kick and let them have the rest of the day off?---The family sick leave is a privilege not a right, it is there to allow people to - to manage their difficult circumstances, which we all have difficulty predicting. The intent is clearly to keep your supervisor fully informed of how you are using that and - and no, the intention would not be to have a free kick, as you said, Mr Heelan, for the day, it would be to make every effort to perform your work as best you can given that you've been given the privilege of being able to attend to family affairs for the period that was absolutely required.
PN233
Was there any discussion with Mr Young at the 6 February meeting in relation to what time he would need to have left work on 4 February to attend the Bunbury trots that day?---Yes, there was. I - I was concerned that the trot meeting was actually outside of normal work hours but I was - the logistics of getting a horse float from Pinjarra to Bunbury was such that Mr Young had made a commitment to be at that race meeting knowing that he would have had to have left work some time well before 3.30 that day, his normal knock off time to make that commitment. I guess I - I foresaw in that a premeditated approach to wanting to meet that commitment in Bunbury. I estimated that he would have had to have left by - left the Wagerup Refinery to travel to Pinjarra, float up horses and then drive to Bunbury from Pinjarra, he would have had to have left the Wagerup Refinery by about 1.00pm. I specifically requested,
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
asked Mr Young at that meeting if he had of attended work on Tuesday the 4th of February with his commitment to the Bunbury trot meeting at 4.10 what time would he have had to have left the refinery and he answered that - to the meeting, 1.00pm.
PN234
And at that 6 February meeting in relation to Mr Young's unauthorised absence from work on 3 February what was he advised?---The - the nature of the absence from work without any authority when there was clear opportunity to at least advice myself because we did speak that morning, but also a number of other co-ordinators that he could have spoken with and having reviewed the final written warning that Mr Dobinson had put on Mr Young's file, that Mr Young was advised that the course of action that the company wished to take from here was the termination of his employment by one of two means, either through his resignation that day or - yes, sorry, his resignation or through dismissal with - with payment in lieu of notice.
PN235
So what was the outcome of the meeting on 6 February?---Once we had stated to Mr Young and to Mr Dicks and Mr Price that that was the course of action we wished to pursue, the leadership of the Australian Workers Union indicated that they would like this to be put into dispute, they disagreed with the approach that we were taking. I don't recall the exact words that were used but the intention was that that may result in industrial action and potential withdrawal of labour from the refinery and the consequent - potential interruption to the business. As a result of that, we discussed fairly openly that we needed to - the company wished to pursue this path but we would work with the Australian Workers Union such that given that they had indicated their intention to put this into a dispute, that that would allow time to resolve any other details which may have been missed at that point in time and also not adversely affect Mr Young's income during that period of time, as per the annualised pay agreement. Yeah, and the real outcome following that was that Mr Young was asked to not to attend work. To stay at home for the period while this was being resolved.
PN236
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How long had Mr Young been working for the company?---Mr Young had been working for the company for - in the order of 18 years.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN237
And what would have been his pay in lieu of notice at that time?---I am not certain of the figures. That it was - yeah.
PN238
In terms of months, weeks or - - - ?---We were talking the - we were talking with between 8 and 12 weeks. Those are the sort of figures which were being discussed with the union membership - with the union leadership.
PN239
Yes, thanks, Mr Heelan.
PN240
MR HEELAN: On that point, Mr Maughan, do you recall the amount of money to which Mr Young would be entitled upon termination of employment?---No, I am sorry, I didn't commit that to memory.
PN241
Less than or more than $100,000?---I do recall some figures of in the order of $140,000 was discussed at - when you rolled - pulled everything together which Mr Young was entitled to.
PN242
On the basis of - - -
PN243
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is that - sorry. Is that superannuation and - - - ?---Yeah. I - - -
PN244
What is everything he was entitled to? What do you mean by that?---Yeah, I really haven't - I haven't worked with that sort of detail so I - - -
PN245
Perhaps that will come from somewhere else, will it?---Yes.
PN246
Yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN247
MR HEELAN: Why did you consider dismissal was warranted?---The basic principles of actually needing to turn up to work, I think, is fairly fundamental to our workplace. Our workplace is very tolerant and flexible and requires a lot of trust. Mr Young had breached that trust and had a lot of opportunity not to do that. There is a lot of people there that he could have consulted with to at least let us know what he was planning to do that day and to allow him to work his way through his priorities and he didn't avail himself of that. That event subsequently proved not to be a one-off situation. It was indicative of a behaviour that had been going for some time. That Mr Dobinson, his direct supervisor, had been managing fairly closely on an almost week by week basis. And I guess the first opportunity where that direct, very close supervision wasn't there, Mr Young appeared to take advantage of that immediately.
PN248
Did the failure to comply with the contract of employment come into the decision to terminate?---Yes, it did. Basically our front line supervisory group at the refinery across all disciplines really need to have a point to start from. Given that the workforce normally operates fairly flexibly, there are some basic principles in the employment contract which people need to abide by.
PN249
Did the final warning of 31 July 2001 come into the decision to terminate?---It certainly did.
PN250
I would ask that the witness be shown a further document, your Honour. Mr Maughan, can you identify that document?---Yes. This is a letter to Mr Young explaining the situation as it had developed in June following two conferences in the Industrial Relations Court. That we were proceeding to dismiss - terminate Mr Young's employment as of - I am not sure which date. I will have to read that. But I think it was a couple of days after the date of the letter, 9 June.
PN251
Could I ask you to look at the second last paragraph on page 3 of the letter?---Sorry, the second last paragraph?
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN252
On page 3?---Yes.
PN253
Does that clarify a date of termination?---Yes, it does. Friday 20 June.
PN254
PN255
MR HEELAN: Thank you, sir.
PN256
Can anyone in your area re-roster or vary their working times without the consent of the appropriate supervisor?---No, they cannot.
PN257
What needs to happen if an employee wants to vary their roster?---As - basically they need to give prior notice of the request. They need to provide some indication of the nature of the request. And allow sufficient time for the front line supervisor, in our case a co-ordinator, to determine the workload, the work pattern, the - any other logistical issues which may be coming up at that time, to make a decision as to whether it is appropriate to allow that to occur.
PN258
Do any other personnel in Mr Young's work area re-roster shifts without seeking approval from an immediate supervisor?---My answer would be no, I am certainly not aware of any of them doing that.
PN259
And if it did occur, would you become aware of it?---I would only - if there was by some devious means that someone was doing that, I would not be aware of it. But if it came to light that someone was doing that, then, yes, it would be escalated to myself from the co-ordinators.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN260
And if you became aware of it happening, would you consider it to be appropriate behaviour?---No, it would not be.
PN261
What would you do about it?---The - I would follow the same path again. I would consult with the HR officer who is my support in these sorts of matters. Assess the nature of the event. Determine or establish whether it is a one off. And begin working down a path. If it never arises again, that would probably be the end of the matter. There would be some verbal discussion. A meeting with the individual involved to indicate that it wasn't appropriate behaviour. If it is repeated, then we would be basically working down the path that we have done here.
PN262
So, if was repeated again, what would you then do?---That would result in, again, the same thing. Escalate, consult with the support group, based on the other information which is available at that time, given that we would be saying that it is a repeat, then that would escalate to a written record of that meeting and basically a written warning as to what is required to achieve the appropriate behaviour in the future. And we would write down some consequences of failure to do that.
PN263
And if then continued, what would you do?---If it then continued, that person is clearly not prepared to work with our basic principles of how we work and if the consequences were such or the event was such that we had indicated to that person that dismissal was an appropriate outcome, then we would proceed with that.
PN264
Mr Maughan, has Kim Young been up front and honest?---No, he has not.
PN265
Has he had any unaccountable hours?---Yes, he has.
PN266
Has he had any AWOL?---Yes, he has.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
PN267
Has his behaviour been acceptable?---No, it has not.
PN268
Has he breached the terms of the final written warning?---He, he has.
PN269
Was that a one off or was it repeated?---I believe it was repeated.
PN270
Has he breached his duty to the employer?---Yes, he has.
PN271
Was that a one off or was it repeated?---I believe - sorry, it was repeated.
PN272
Do you consider that any more could be done to assist Kim Young?---No, I have drawn the conclusion that, no, it could not be.
PN273
Do you trust him?---No, I don't.
PN274
If he was to come back to work, what do you consider would be the effect on the front line management?---I believe it would take away their right or the - any support that they would have to address issues of people who choose not to attend work or to work outside the employment contract. It wold give them no course of response. That if a person is able to leave work without authorisation and then is no come-back on that, then it would totally undermine any front line co-ordinator's ability to work with those people and manage their time.
PN275
Are you aware if any other assistance was offered to Mr Young?---Yes, there has been other assistance offered to Mr Young. There is some illusion - alluding to that in the final written warning, where - when brought to Mr Young's attention about a lot of absences, that he was offered - I believe Mr Young at that point in time indicated to Mr Dobinson that he had issues in his private life that were causing him to be distracted from his work. Mr Dobinson responded to that by offering counselling. We have an employee assistance
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XN MR HEELAN
program which is a counselling type service. Through a broad range of things. Not just emotional issues. But other financial and other types of issues that people may need support with. And he was certainly offered the opportunity to take advantage of that. That is a free opportunity within the - offered by the company. And as it is recorded on 31 July there, that he had declined at that point in time to take advantage of that.
PN276
And do you believe that Mr Young was rorting the system?---Yes, I do believe he was doing that.
PN277
And if he was able to get away with it, what effect would that have on the work structure?---Basically it would be anything goes. It would be very difficult, somewhat impossible, to hold people accountable for their work hours if it is considered a fair thing that people can just leave the refinery at any time. We don't have a time card system. We don't clock in. We don't clock out or anything like that. We have got a fairly open, trusting, flexible workplace and it really does - is underpinned by people's integrity to actually do what they have been contracted to do.
PN278
So, could that potentially undermine the whole work structure at the refinery?---I believe so, yes.
PN279
Yes, thank you, Mr Maughan.
PN280
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Llewellyn?
PN281
PN282
MR LLEWELLYN: Mr Maughan, do I understand your evidence is that Alcoa was unaware that Mr Young was involved in trotting?---No, I haven't said that.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN283
Was Alcoa unaware that he was taking time off to attend to trotting duties?---Was - please explain.
PN284
Well, was he taking time off the job to go and attend trotting meetings?---There was no awareness of any time off to attend trotting meetings without prior authorisation.
PN285
Okay. So, there was occasions where you provided authorisation?---Yes.
PN286
No you personally?---That is correct. But I am aware that that has been provided.
PN287
But you personally haven't provided any, have you?---No, I have not.
PN288
And you don't work in his area?---His area, I am accountable for his area.
PN289
Right. But you are not his co-ordinator, are you?---I am not his direct co-ordinator, that is correct.
PN290
Who was Mr Young's co-ordinator in February of this year?---Mr Young's co-ordinator in February this year was Mr Tony Quinzi who was a relief co-ordinator from within the refinery.
PN291
And he wasn't there at the time, was he?---On which day?
PN292
That week?---That week? No, he was on annual leave that week.
PN293
Right. And your issue, as I understand it, with Mr Young at the time where he was required on your instruction to contact his co-ordinator was he should have rung on 8169 and left a message. That is right, isn't it?---I don't understand your question.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN294
Well, 8169 is Mr Quinzi's phone number, isn't it?---That was the phone number in that office, yes.
PN295
What was said to Mr Young in order to have contacted the workplace, he should have rang 8169 and left a message?---That was a final option that he may have taken in the event that he wasn't able to contact any of the co-ordinators on site.
PN296
No, well, he didn't have a co-ordinator, did he? His work group did not have a co-ordinator at that time?---No, that is not true. Mr Quinzi was on annual leave and Mr Eastick who was relieving for my position as Electrical Supervisor, he is the next level of chain of command to report that to. In addition to that, Mr Eastick was working with Mr Quinzi on a technical level to support him all the time during the period from the beginning of December up until that date.
PN297
So, the evidence from the work group that they didn't have a co-ordinator is false then? All the work group?---That is correct.
PN298
And is your evidence that all of the work group never take absences without contacting a co-ordinator?---That is - yes, my understanding is that they do not take absences without prior approval.
PN299
So, they don't contact the control room attendants?---I can't answer that.
PN300
They don't contact their work mates?---To get prior approval to take an absence from work?
PN301
Yes, to be off sick, call in sick?---To call in sick and if they can't get their co-ordinator, and they leave a message with their work team to pass that on, that would occur, yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN302
And that is acceptable?---Generally speaking it is not but it - but under certain circumstances - because the co-ordinators aren't always available. That message would get through.
PN303
So - - - ?---And it is up to the individual to make sure that that co-ordinator does get that message.
PN304
See, the evidence we will be leading is that not only is there a habit of contacting your work mates, you can tell the person you normally car pool with to let the company know that I am going to be off crook today. I contact the control room attendants and let them know I am off crook today. And on weekends, there is no-one to contact because quite often there aren't any co-ordinators?---I have a roster which has been working since 1995. I have an electrical co-ordinator on site and/or contactable via mobile phone every weekend. The employment contract is such that every individual knows that they have an obligation to make sure that their immediate supervision or a substitute for that immediate supervision is aware that they are going to be absent that day.
PN305
All right?---That is their obligation under their employment contract.
PN306
In terms of Mr Young's position, then, in relation to this warning that was issued 18 months prior, the warning of 31 July, you say in your view he wasn't living by that agreement?---That is correct.
PN307
In what way?---I am looking for specifically that says in here - I am just looking for it. That he would actually contact Mr Dobinson direct.
PN308
He would inform his co-ordinator?---He would inform his co-ordinator. Yeah, sorry:
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN309
If Kim is not going to turn for work or leave early for any reason, he must contact John Dobinson...
PN310
And there is a black slash there -
PN311
or a co-ordinator to notify him of the absence.
PN312
It wasn't left open. In this particular case, it was definitely no longer acceptable, given Mr Young's performance at that time, to rely on a team mate or anybody else to pass on any details about an absence.
PN313
Where does it say that?---Sorry?
PN314
Where does it say that?---I guess that what my understanding of discussing with Mr Dobinson. But it does say that he will contact John Dobinson or a co-ordinator to notify him of the absence.
PN315
And if the co-ordinator is not there, who should he contact?---He needs to escalate that.
PN316
Because, see, what Mr Young's evidence will be is was he told what he should have done was ring 8169 and left a message?---Was he told - sorry.
PN317
For the Tuesday that he had off?---That - - -
PN318
The 4th?---That conversation came out on the 6th. I don't know what he was told and what he understood prior to the - of the 4th when he should have rung - - -
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN319
But that is what he was told, wasn't he? He should have rang 8169 and left a message?---The - what was discussed on 6 February was that as an absolute last resort, there should have at least been a message on that phone message bank. But that was an absolute last resort. Given that the co-ordinators were all at work that date. There were plenty of people to phone.
PN320
Well, it would be a last resort because the evidence will be a message - we tried your system and left a message on the phone and 3 months later the person still hasn't got the message?---The message on that was for Mr Rob Zander to call Kim. And that became - I have listened to that message and I couldn't see the relevance of it.
PN321
When did you listen to that?---I don't know what day that was.
PN322
Days after it was left? Weeks after it was left? When it was pointed out the message hadn't been retrieved?---Yes. After that.
PN323
So, it was weeks after?---It would have been weeks after.
PN324
When it was pointed out in the Commission the message had never been received from the phone call. I mean, there was little point leaving a message on that phone that you were going to be absent if no-one checks the phone?---Again, I will take it back. That was an absolute last resort and we did suggest - it was really just a suggestion to Mr Young that as a minimum under the circumstances, given that we - there were six co-ordinators plus myself on site during that Tuesday and we have all got - sorry, most of us have mobile phones as well as desk phones. That we checked there was no messages on any of our mobile phones or desk phones and as an absolute last resort, he may have left a message on 8169 and I wanted to check that. And I did check that. And it was mentioned in discussions on that day. But I had in fact checked that phone, just to make sure, because I didn't want to falsely accuse Mr Young of not going down the path of trying his absolute best to notify us.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN325
So, his absolute best isn't informing a work team that he was supposed to be working with that day?---No.
PN326
At that point in time all that was occurring was those people were simply getting basically a computer print out of what their tasks were for the day and then they would allocate their work accordingly amongst themselves with no co-ordinator. That is what was going on at the time, wasn't it?---With respect to Mr Young's - - -
PN327
The work team Mr Young was working in?---That is what they would have been doing that day.
PN328
But with no direct input from anyone. It was just simply the task print out on a computer screen and they allocate the jobs to themselves. They don't have anyone co-ordinating their work?---They had support - to co-ordinate the work as we - I think it has been mentioned earlier that with a semi-autonomous work process that we have at Wagerup, that is in fact how people would be getting their work and working to the plans that we have. With respect to issues such as absenteeism, which is not work management, there is clear understanding and instruction that people would report that to a co-ordinator.
PN329
All right. So, you are not aware that people take time off to attend football games?---Without - are you asking that without approval?
PN330
Well, without necessarily a co-ordinator's approval?---No, I am not aware of people taking time off to attend football games without prior approval from a co-ordinator.
PN331
But you are aware a number of people in that department played football?---I am not actually.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN332
How about people that umpire football games?---I have no list of people who - I have no idea of who umpires football.
PN333
All right. But you are familiar with the re-rostering system?---I am familiar that people do re-roster their work hours both for the - - -
PN334
Yes. And make up work hours?---I am familiar that they do that as well.
PN335
And Mr Young has done that on a number of occasions?---Mr Young has done that.
PN336
Since the final warning?---I can't comment on that.
PN337
Well, didn't you check it out? You investigated it?---For re-rostering days?
PN338
For re-rostering days or making up time when he went off to do the trots on a Monday or a Friday?---The - I am aware of him requesting - but not personally. This is through second hand. That he has requested of his co-ordinator since 31 July, that written warning in 2001, that Mr Dobinson - I believe he may have allowed him to leave work on a Friday afternoon slightly early. Sorry, I really can't say that that happened after 31 July 2001.
PN339
You can't say that it happened after 31 July?---It certainly - I believe it was happening before them, as Mr Dobinson was trying to work with Mr Young to manage his personal issues as well as his hobby as well as attend work appropriately.
PN340
All right. See, the evidence will be that Mr Young regularly attended those meetings on Mondays in Pinjarra when it was not his rostered day off, if the meeting fell on a day that wasn't his rostered day off. Normally his rostered day off is a Monday, isn't it?---It would be every second Monday, yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN341
All right. So, when a trot meeting in Pinjarra - and trot meetings in Pinjarra fall on Mondays? You have checked that out obviously?---The ones I have checked do, yes.
PN342
Yes. Mr Young would quite often leave work early to attend those and make up the hours at another time?---I can't comment on that. I don't - I am not aware of that.
PN343
He used to do that also on Fridays regularly? You are not aware of that either?---Not specifically, no.
PN344
Are you aware of the Alcoa Hero Program?---Yes, I am.
PN345
Are you aware that Mr Young got an award in terms of that program?---No, he did not get an award for that. He was provided with a grant.
PN346
Well, it was fairly widely advertised about him, wasn't it?---I was also a recipient of a grant as well as per many employees.
PN347
I am just wondering if I can have the witness shown this, thanks.
PN348
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What inference do I draw from that, that you were given one? It is given out to anybody?---Almost.
PN349
MR LLEWELLYN: Just for the record, the document I have handed up is actually a reduction of that. Only because the photocopier won't go that big.
PN350
Are you familiar with that?---I certainly am.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN351
And this is an award given to Alcoa by Mr Young for his work with the pony trots. That is right, isn't it?---No, it is not. This is - this was a recognition that Mr Young, along with a number of other people who volunteer in the community, in his - what I understand, in his own time, pulled together a group of ten people to have a busy bee at the pony trots. I believe, in Pinjarra. I am very aware of it. It occurred on 15 December last year. And as a result of pulling a large volunteer effort together, Alcoa will - the Alcoa company has a support for volunteers in the community program. They offer two levels of grant. One is for individuals who volunteer in anything from a service club, through to a religious organisation, through to a sporting event, sporting club, that if they volunteer more than 50 hours of their personal time towards that activity and are able to document that and have that signed off by someone like the President of that organisation, then an application can be made to this Alcoa Foundation and a grant in the - to the tune of $US250 is provided. Hence, my comment, I volunteer in the community and has been a recipient of that. There is a second level of that activity whereby if an individual who has a - is able to get a group of ten Alcoa employees together to pull a busy bee or a collection or something like that in an activity where people put their own time and effort into a volunteer organisation, that the Alcoa Foundation will in fact provide a grant of $US3000 to that organisation on the basis that they document and verify that they have spent that money in accordance with what - under the guidelines of the program. So, in this particular case, I don't know all the people that Mr Young pulled together that day, but he was able to - along with a number of other people with sporting clubs and surf life saving and that - and the like, he pulled together a group of ten people and they had a busy bee building something at the - for the Pinjarra pony trots. This money obviously provided - sorry, I am assuming this money provided for materials to build whatever they were building. And as a result of that, the Alcoa Foundation supported that activity and that money was paid directly - would have been paid directly to the volunteer organisation that Mr Young would have been representing that day.
PN352
And do you know when the pony trots are on?---No, I don't.
PN353
Would it be a surprise to you to find out they are on 3 o'clock Monday afternoons?---Yes, it would.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN354
So, Mr Young would have to leave work early to attend those, wouldn't he?---I - I personally wouldn't draw that conclusion. I - I don't know his exact role in the pony trots.
PN355
But Alcoa gave him - put this up everywhere to acknowledge his effort in - - -?---Along with people who collected money - sorry, put together a program for - I'm aware of surf lifesaving, a Waroona cricket club and others.
PN356
I understand that?---It wasn't an award - - -
PN357
It applies to anyone that does those sort of community - it is part of the work and family policy?---It was - no it is not. It was quite a separate - separate activity through the Alcoa Foundation in the US which is a separate body to Alcoa. It is from a - a - I think some - of some sort of a - a parcel of money which was put aside 50 or so years ago which has matured and they use it for these sorts of activities of - of supporting employees who, of their own volition, volunteer in the community in their own time. And so, no, this - this is not an award, this is recognition that Mr Young, amongst other people, were - had put teams together. In fact there was a - a morning tea which encompassed both the people who put the larger programs together; I think this is called, Action, that is why it is on there, Action. And also the people who had exhibited or demonstrated that they had put 50 hours or more into their own smaller community activities, that were all recognised at a morning tea.
PN358
So, you say it is not an award for Mr Young?---I - it is absolutely not an award for Mr Young. It is recognition that he did that but it is not an award.
PN359
All right. So a large post with his name and everything that is presented to him in recognition, is not an award from Alcoa for doing that sort of a task?---It was recognition that he had - he volunteers in the community outside of his own - outside of work time and in recognition of the fact that he does volunteer in the community and Alcoa values people who don't just do their thing at work but also support the communities in which they live. It is just a means of being able to support that. There were some posters presented that day but all the people who were - received these, the Bravo, the $250 US, or who coordinated the action programs, were all equally recognised.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN360
In terms of Mr Young's attachment to trotting, it has been well know in Alcoa for a long time, hasn't it?---I believe the general work force would know that Kim's - Mr Young is associated with trotting, yes.
PN361
How long have you been with Alcoa?---I've been with Alcoa just under 15 years.
PN362
So, that would take us back to 1987?---No, I started in October '88.
PN363
Okay.
PN364
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did you want to tender that document?
PN365
PN366
MR LLEWELLYN: It is your understanding then, Mr Maughan, since the final warning in July 2001, Mr Young wasn't provided flexibility to re-roster shifts and take time off early and catch up early to meet his trotting commitments?---The specifics of that, I believe, you will need to talk to Mr Dobinson about that be he's - any flexibility that - that he was provided was with the - with prior notice and direct communication between Mr Young and Mr Dobinson as to how they might go about doing that. Again, second hand information from Mr Dobinson would be that there were occasions where Mr Young came into work on the Saturday with Mr Dobinson and he made up time but I'm not sure exactly what dates were all - whether that was before or after 31 July 2001.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN367
All right but you said that Mr Young regularly, if you like, on a number of occasions breached what he was expected of, of July 2001. So when were all the breaches?---I'm not sure that I said that.
PN368
Well how many times has he so called breached this final warning that was issued 18 months prior?---The evidence that I've got is, I've got three breaches of it in - these - January and February this year.
PN369
Three breaches?---Yes.
PN370
What are the three breaches?---He made a commitment to - he requested to be able to re-roster 23 January and make that up on the 25th, which he did not do. The only time that we became aware of that was well and - was 10 or 12 days after the event on 6 February. So he - - -
PN371
Well see, Mr Young's evidence will be, he spoke to Mr Quinzi about that and he had no problem with the fact that he had put it off from the Saturday?---I guess - I find that strange that he was able to do that but he may - - -
PN372
His evidence will also be that Mr Quinzi had no problems when he approached him to swap the day originally?---Oh, Mr Quinzi has told me that he was uncomfortable with it and had sought at least as a minimum to allow the next level of supervision on site to be aware that he had made that decision and - and he went along with that decision on the basis that Mr Young was going to make up that commitment on the 25th. What he did ask was, Mr Eastick to follow up to make sure that Mr Young did in fact come in on the 25th and our subsequent questioning on that indicated that he probably did not come to work on the 25th. So we asked Mr Young specifically did he come to work on the 25th and he told us that he did not and that he was going to make that up some time.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN373
Yes and that Mr Quinzi had no difficulty with that?---Mr Quinzi had difficulty in the decision to - the request that Mr Young made but he - he went along with that request on the basis that the workload that Mr Young would have otherwise done on Thursday, that he was comfortable that he - making that up on Saturday was still going to meet business requirements. So he came to a level of comfort with that but he was uncomfortable initially making the decision and as a result of that, did not keep that decision to himself. He escalated that so at least someone else knew about it.
PN374
But in terms of the discussion that took place between Mr Quinzi and Mr Young, you weren't present for that and you have got no idea what was said?---I've only - but the nature of our proceedings here today, I've actually talked to Mr Quinzi about that but no, I can't vouch what happened on that day.
PN375
So, you are saying that there have been three breaches of the policy for this final warning 18 months after it was issued?---I am saying that I am personally aware of 3 issues since then. Yes.
PN376
All right, and the final warning - sorry, I'm just wondering if I can have the witness shown exhibit A3, thanks.
PN377
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you have a copy of this - - -
PN378
THE WITNESS: Which one is A3?
PN379
MR LLEWELLYN: The letter from Mr Dobinson, 28 November?---28 November? Yes.
PN380
It is the one with the handwriting?---I have that.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN381
The middle one?---I have that, yeah.
PN382
Now, you say you became aware of that on the 6th?---Yes, I believe I became aware of it on the 6th.
PN383
Before or after you made the decision that his employment should be terminated?---Definitely before.
PN384
All right. So, you read this and his report on the 6th of the 12th, which is - what's that, 17 months after the written warning was that Kim was doing really well and everything was fine?---Mm. Yeah, I - following receiving that, given that Mr Dobinson was now at the Pinjarra Refinery, there was a number of phone calls that I made to him to understand what was behind that. And - and basically what is written here didn't change my mind that I needed to consult with our Human Resources officers with our HR Manager and with the Refinery Manager to - and, sorry, and the Manufacturing Manager, at the time to understand the seriousness of this and exactly how we wanted to handle it. And so - - -
PN385
All right, so Mr Dobinson can confirm that what he had written there he agreed with still?---Mr Dobinson said that, yes, he did write that based on - and based on my discussion of what I had just exhibited, he was concerned that what he had written there was not being exhibited by Mr Young's - Mr Young's behaviour on those days.
PN386
On the 3 days?---Yes.
PN387
Right but prior to the 3 days, Mr Dobinson was happy with his behaviour?---You'd have to ask Mr Dobinson that.
PN388
You did not ask him that?---No.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN389
But you know that he re-rostered on a number of occasions and sometimes came to work on occasions with Mr Dobinson on re-rostering?---Again, I'm not - I'm not clear as to whether that happened before or after the 31 July 2001.
PN390
Okay?---I can't speak from first - first hand knowledge.
PN391
So you didn't check into any of that either? Did you check into what the reasons for the final written warning were?---Certainly, I discussed that with Mr Dobinson. Yes.
PN392
Did it have anything to do with his trotting?---Specifically what's written there, no.
PN393
Well, the whole thing didn't have anything to do with trotting, was it, it was - - -?---No.
PN394
He was suffering from depression at the time, he had a problem with gambling. That is what all that was about, wasn't it?---That is not written there and I'm not - I - I've been - after the event made aware that some of those things may have been behind that but because of the - the personal nature of - of those discussions, I wasn't a party to any of that. Of exactly what was behind that.
PN395
Mr Maughan, if I put to you that his activities of trotting form no part at all about what was written in that final written warning, as a matter of fact, what occurred after that final written warning within a number of days, three to be precise, Mr Young took time off and attended another trotting meeting. He did so 7 days after that, 5 days after that, 6 days after that?---My apology, Mr Llewellyn. Which - which month and where are we talking - - -
PN396
Well I am going from 2001. He continued to attend trotting meetings and fulfil those commitments that he had always had and had regularly re-rostered for some 17 years, immediately after the written warning and continued to do so with no complaints from Alcoa?---I don't know that it was with no complaints from Alcoa and I don't believe he's done that without prior approval to do that.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN397
Well see, the evidence will be that quite often Mr Dobinson would come in in the morning and say: the trots are on this arvo, Kim, I suppose you're going home early. You didn't ask anyone about that?---Pardon me?
PN398
Did you ask anyone about that, his work group, his peers?---I wouldn't have known to ask that.
PN399
But you went out and saw his team to if he had been making up hours and whether he had been re-rostering and all that sort of thing, hadn't you?---I - following 3 February?
PN400
Yes?---No, I haven't been and spoken to his team about that.
PN401
Didn't you say - sorry, I misunderstood you then. I thought you said in evidence you had spoken to the work team about his attendance and what have you, along with the coordinators?---I spoke with the coordinators about it.
PN402
But you didn't talk to the work team, the people he works directly with?---No. I talked to the coordinators.
PN403
And the coordinators aren't people that work directly with his team because his coordinator wasn't there?---I spoke with John Dobinson, Mr Dobinson at Pinjarra about it who had been working with Mr Young for 6 years up until 2 months prior to this event.
PN404
And Mr Dobinson didn't have a problem with his attendance and to notifying and what have you?---Mr Dobinson indicated to me that his understanding that any absence that Mr Young had had during that period of time was with his notification.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN405
That is right, as Mr - - -?---And with his approval.
PN406
As Mr Young's coordinator?---As Mr Young's coordinator.
PN407
And the only time this problem arose was when Mr Young didn't have a coordinator?---Mr Young had a coordinator. Mr Quinzi was the coordinator assigned - - -
PN408
But he was on leave?--- - - - and Mr - yes, he was on leave and Mr Eastick was the - the next level up.
PN409
See, one of the electricians - you know Mr Zander, don't you?---Yes, I do.
PN410
And he is one of the electricians in your area?---Yes.
PN411
Mr Zander's evidence will be that he actually wrote to Mr Knight in relation to that and said that it was not well known that Mr Eastick was supposed to be looking after their interests?---Can I put it to you that on the - the - what Mr Young said to us and what he had said to other coordinators on Monday, 3 February, that he was wanting to see Mr Eastick to tell him - tell him about these - his impending absence.
PN412
That is right?---On that day. Based on Mr Young wanting to see Mr Eastick to tell him about that, my understanding after 18 years of working with Alcoa and understanding the employment contract and knowing the need to advise a supervisory person prior to your absent - absenting yourself from site, that Mr Young knew he had to see Mr Eastick. And in fact - - -
PN413
But your evidence is, everybody always notifies before they leave site. Well certainly no one does it to your knowledge?---That is correct.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN414
No one does not notify?---That is correct.
PN415
See, our evidence will be that it is - - -?---They put the - - -
PN416
- - - it is common practice for employees to notify their workmates, in teams, as long as they have a look at the work that is available or the work that is required to be performed for the day and if they can be spared, they will leave?---Mm.
PN417
That is an autonomous work team, isn't it? That is how you would expect an autonomous work team to work?---They still need to make sure that they're - they are being accountable to their coordinator with respect to their - the hours because they are basically paid on an hourly rate.
PN418
That is right and they subsequently make up those hours. That is right, isn't it?---If - if they were to do that, they'd need to do that with the - with the notification or with the approval of their coordinator so they actually know that they need to do that. In Mr - in Mr Young's case, we didn't find out about his absence on 25 January, and I am suspicious that I was actually ever going to find out about it, until the - until 6 February.
PN419
See, the difficulty I have is that there are all sorts of little sweetheart arrangements going on in Alcoa, aren't there?---I'm not aware of them.
PN420
So you are not aware of electricians re-rostering and getting paid weekend penalties for working on week days?---If the electrician requests - sorry, if the company - the coordinator requests an electrician to work on a week day because of - because of a shut down or something like that, to re-roster that time. Okay, so they would - they would - it is not uncommon that that person may then take that day off; they've worked an extra day mid week, that they may take that day off as a weekend day.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN421
All right. A number of employees at Alcoa, as I understand, also have second businesses. They work for Alcoa and they do other work on the side?---I - I'm vaguely aware of some of that, yes.
PN422
And some of your electricians do that?---Yes.
PN423
And electricians, it is not unusual they want to re-roster a day so they can go and re-wire a house, for example?---I'm not aware of anyone requesting approval to do that.
PN424
So it would surprise you if somebody has been able to re-roster a day so they can go and re-wire a house?---Exactly what they're doing on that re-rostered day, I - I guess is - really is not of great concern to the company so long as having re-rostered that day, that they - it stills meets the business need, or when they're going to re-roster that day to and the coordinator needs to have that prior notification so he can make that decision. If the person has what ever activity on on that other day, I don't see that as the company's business.
PN425
Right, in your department, I mean, if re-rostering was to suddenly stop, employees said: we are not going to re-roster anymore, that would make life extremely difficult for you, wouldn't it?---I think it would also make life difficult for the employees. A lot of the re-rostering is at the employees request.
PN426
But a lot of it is at Alcoa's request?---I don't believe the majority is. No. There - there's certainly - it certainly does exist but I don't believe it is a majority.
PN427
Mr Maughan, how long is a warning standard at Alcoa? If I issue a warning, how long does it stand for?---I don't know that it has got a particular time limit.
PN428
Well, if I've been required to modify my behaviour?---Yeah.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN429
How long does that modification stay in place; 20 years, 10 years, 5 years, 2 years, 1 year?---In this particular circumstance with respect to the attendance at work and basically deceiving myself and Mr Eastick on that - on that Monday - - -
PN430
How did he deceive you?---Well we believed he was at work. If - if I'd - if - - -
PN431
But he told his work crew he was leaving, didn't he?---I have no evidence of that. I don't know.
PN432
Did you enquire?---Well, did he - I don't believe he told his - I'm sorry, I don't know - I didn't specifically find out if he told - - -
PN433
You didn't enquire?---I asked all the people who he should have told. I enquired with all the coordinators.
PN434
Well you managed to enquire with his work group that he had rung in on the Tuesday?---No, I didn't enquire on that because the - one of his work crew in passing had mentioned to Mr Eastick: oh, Kim rang in sick. So that had been passed on.
PN435
So you didn't bother checking with the work crew at all about anything?---Well I didn't need to check that because we knew that.
PN436
Right. And if you had checked with your work crew you would have found out he told the work crew that: tried to see Col but he was ignoring me and I've got to go - if anyone asks where I've gone, that is where I've gone; I'll catch up the hours?---Yeah, but the behaviour was - no, I didn't check that. I didn't need to check that.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN437
Why was that?---Because the - at 9.30 on that morning, I'm aware that - I'm introducing another name here, Mr Murray Daniels, who's another electrical coordinator, Mr Young sat with him for - - -
PN438
He is the apprentice trainer, isn't he?---The apprentice trainer, yes.
PN439
He's not a coordinator, he's the apprentice trainer?---Well he's the apprentice coordinator, okay.
PN440
Right, that has got nothing to do with Mr Young?---Mr Young sat with him - he's in - he's in our department, Mr Young, and he is at the level of a coordinator and recognised as such in the company. Mr Young sat with him for at least a half an hour - - -
PN441
Is he Mr Young's coordinator?---No, he's not. Mr Young - - -
PN442
Your complaint is that Mr Young never followed the 31 July memorandum which says, "tell your coordinator"?---No. It says: tell Mr Dobinson and/or coordinator - - -
PN443
An unacceptable behaviour is not notifying your coordinator?---Yeah.
PN444
That is what is says, on the front page, under, unacceptable behaviour?---And Mr - - -
PN445
"Absenteeism without notifying your coordinator." Not, any coordinator in the Refinery?---Well, I will - I will suggest to you that the - the understanding within the Refinery is that if you haven't got your immediate coordinator there, there is - there are other coordinators in that staff position in the company that you really need to let the know - need to let know if you're leaving site.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN446
So, the evidence we will be leading is, the understanding is you can notify a control room attendant, you can notify your work crew?---I don't believe that is meeting the commitments of the employment regulations to do that.
PN447
But it is common practice, is it not?---I don't believe so. It may happen but a common practice, I can't comment on that.
PN448
I mean, even in relation to the written warning, there is a note there that on the 5th of the 7th, Mr Young actually got paid for sick without a certificate and he attempted to contact Scott. Now, Scott wasn't a coordinator, was he?---At that time, Scott Murray was the relieving coordinator in that area. John Dobinson - - -
PN449
What, in July 2001?---Yes, he was.
PN450
Does Mr Murray know that is the position he had?---Yes, I believe he did. He was relieving in that area as a - he wasn't the coordinator but he was managing the business in that area.
PN451
Oh, okay so he was just a wages employee that people could contact to get leave approved?---He was carrying out the functions of the coordinator with respect to reporting back to the operations centre management with activities during the day. He - he was placed in that position - oh, sorry, invited to work in that position while Mr Dobinson was, in fact, covering for me at that time.
PN452
See, the system that Alcoa's moved to at the moment is the new EBS system, isn't it?---Yes.
PN453
Where an employee - - -
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN454
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, what is that?
PN455
MR LLEWELLYN: Sorry. Where an employee is required to input his own time off when he wants to have it. That is right, isn't it?---That is correct.
PN456
What does he do if he hasn't got approval prior to needing to go?---That system's - wasn't turned on until somewhere - somewhere like the 10th or 11th of February this year and I'm not sure whether that is relevant.
PN457
Well, I'm just asking you. You say that no-one can leave without approval. The system that you have put in place even since the termination?---Yeah.
PN458
Is it, as an employee I will put into the computer when I can go on leave or I want to take today off, what happens if I do not get approval back before I go?---The - the system still requires approval for - for leave and again, it is - I think that is also a reflection of the trusting - trusting workplace that we've got for the onus is on the - the individuals to manage - to manage the - their obligations to their employment contract.
PN459
That is right. The onus is on the individuals to manage their obligations; that is, manage their time, re-roster shifts - - -?---Yeah.
PN460
- - - to make up hours. So, they can take time off as long as they re-roster it and make it up some other time?---No, that is not the case. They need to - - -
PN461
But that is what happens, isn't it?---I'm not aware of people who put their employment in jeopardy by taking time off without seeking prior approval before they do that.
PN462
But people re-roster hours to play football games?---With prior approval of their coordinator.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN463
Umpire football games?---I don't know about umpiring.
PN464
Play darts?---I have no knowledge of that.
PN465
Attend trotting trials, go to kid's sports days. I mean, all these things happen?---Mm.
PN466
At the refinery, don't they?---And - yes, they do. That - sorry, all those - the ones - the - attending - - -
PN467
And not always directly with the coordinator's approval?---I don't agree with that.
PN468
As a matter of fact on some occasions, there are employees that sign leave forms?---Oh, again I haven't - I haven't witnessed that.
PN469
So you don't know about all these things that go on?---I think you're telling a story.
PN470
But if those things were going on you would expect to know about them, wouldn't you?---If they were going on and, I guess the - this particular circumstance with Mr Young clearly, turning a blind eye to that is then going to call into question the coordinator's role and it comes back to a question Mr Heelan asked earlier about the impact on the refinery that turning a blind eye to someone taking time off without any authorisation, certainly puts into question the supervisory roles persons ability to do that job. And I don't believe that they are sill enough to do that.
PN471
Are you familiar with the process where you can re-roster with yourself?---In - on their own shift pattern?
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN472
Yes?---Again, with - with a coordinator's approval they - but that is - that is what we've been discussing. That is basically moving a day within the work pattern to a more suitable day.
PN473
All right but you say that if Mr Young had approached you on the 3rd and asked for permission to go to the trots you would have denied him that permission?---Yes because he was approaching me about an hour before he needed to leave and really given me no opportunity to - to seek out what he was supposed to be doing that day and whether it was a - any way a reasonable business decision to allow him to do that.
PN474
But another employee who gave similar notice was able to go, Mr Smith, as I understand it?---Yes.
PN475
And he gave short notice as well?---Yes and that coordinator had said that he had - he was able to assess that.
PN476
That was his coordinator wasn't it, that said that?---That is correct.
PN477
And Mr Young didn't have one so there wasn't a coordinator directly that could assess that work?---Mr Young would - was coming up to the work shop and was trying to see Mr Eastick to, in fact, try and determine that.
PN478
Well your issue is that you did not know what work he had to do in his department that day, did you, in his area?---No, I didn't have specific knowledge of that, no.
PN479
Because you are not the coordinator?---But I - it is a question of me then having to take time out of what I was doing to go and establish that or ask another person who would, in this case, be Mr Eastick, to go and do that and we were scheduled to still doing hand-over and that a short notice request from Mr Young to go to a trot meeting, that was going to be a very low priority. And the - under those circumstances I wouldn't have strung him along, I would have said no.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN480
So do you know how often Mr Eastick made contact with that work group, 35Q?---I can't say specifically, no.
PN481
Well, he was the coordinator. How often did he make contact; didn't you check?---Oh, I would suggest once a day. I know he was doing some - in the order of once a day.
PN482
So did he have the toolbox meeting?---I - I can't sit here and vouch for that.
PN483
Well he wouldn't have, would he, because he would have been doing toolbox meetings in his own areas?---No. Mr Eastick doesn't normally have a reporting crew directly to him
PN484
All right, so who was doing the toolbox meetings?---Basically I was running a lot of the toolbox - well, sorry, on that day - - -
PN485
Well, you were not there?--- - - - on the Monday, Wednesday - sorry?
PN486
MR YOUNG: In our workshop. In our workshop.
PN487
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I ran - I ran - I believe I ran a toolbox meeting on that Monday, the 3rd.
PN488
MR LLEWELLYN: Between the 3rd and 7th?---Between the 3rd and 7th?
PN489
Yes?---Actually, I believe I ran the toolbox meetings for the whole EI group on the Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I can't comment on the Tuesday.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN490
And that was giving them work allocation, was it?---No. No, no. Basically handling - handling safety information, handling what the contract company that we have on site, what their workload was for the week, advising people what was happening. So it was just general awareness as well as we usually have a safety topic in there.
PN491
See, Mr Maughan what Mr Young's evidence will be is that at his department, which I understand is 35QEI - - -?---Yes.
PN492
- - - he never had any toolbox meeting?---On the Tuesday and Thursdays?
PN493
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday?---On the Mondays they - they all came up to the main workshop.
PN494
The electricians all came up to the main workshop?---Yes, and - - -
PN495
Mr Young is not an electrician and not with that department, is he?---Yes, he was with the department.
PN496
35QEI?---Yes. He was - he is part of the W69 electrical department and the other trades assistants did attend that meeting.
PN497
But Mr Young didn't?---I am not sure why he didn't. He was certainly invited.
PN498
So you acknowledge he wasn't there?---No, I can't say specifically. There may have been somewhere between 12 and 15 people there. I don't recall exactly who was there on that day, but I do know that the trades assistants from the - the other two trades assistants do attend that meeting.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN499
Now, in terms of when Mr Young rang in sick on the Tuesday, you accept that he notified his work mates, or rang in and said his wife was sick?---Yes, no, we've gone through that.
PN500
And you agree that when you spoke to Mr Young, I think it was around the 6th of February, he volunteered the information that he took the time off the Wednesday - sorry, the Monday?---Yes.
PN501
When asked, he said, "Yes, I left early and went to the trots". Is that right?---Yes, he did - he did verify that.
PN502
On the Tuesday he agreed that yes, he had taken time off because his wife suffered from vertigo?---On the - sorry, on the Tuesday?
PN503
Yes?---Yes, he did say that.
PN504
And he rang at 7 o'clock in the morning and got one of his work mates and said: I have got to stay home because my wife is crook?---That - an abridged version of that was passed on to us and Kim did say that, yes.
PN505
And you have got no reason to disbelieve any of that?---The absence in the morning? On the Tuesday?
PN506
Yes?---No, I take his word for that. I have never seen a doctor's note for that.
PN507
You didn't ask for one either, did you?---He is actually responsible for providing one.
PN508
Well, you didn't ask for one, did you?---Well, I can't - - -
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN509
I mean, family leave is not a privilege, it is actually a right. There is a test case in this Commission for it, isn't there?---I am not aware - - -
PN510
Family carer's leave?---I am not aware of that.
PN511
It is in the agreement - certified agreement?---My understanding of the family leave is that it is a privilege and - and Mr Young has come to us and said that his wife was ill and we certainly accept that for that morning. But it does require that that needs to be supported by a certificate, of one form or another, from a - from a medical practitioner.
PN512
Mr Young felt hard done by because he made it clear to you his wife was crook and that it was only after she recovered and somebody else came around and picked him up and took him to the trots. That is right isn't it?---That is what he said, yes.
PN513
You don't disbelieve that?---That someone came around and took him to the trots?
PN514
Picked him up, yes?---I am aware that he was at a trot meeting at 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
PN515
Well, I mean, if he wasn't taking his horses down to that meeting, he wouldn't have to leave work at 1 o'clock either, would he?---Sorry?
PN516
If he wasn't taking the horses to the meeting, he wouldn't have to leave at 1 o'clock, would he?---Are you - is the question that - the - the travel time from Wagerup to Bunbury?
PN517
Well, you base it on how long it would take him to leave, is that he had to have the horses there, I think 60 minutes before the race meeting?---Yes, yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN518
So your evidence is that he would have to leave around 1 o'clock?---I did that estimation, yes. But I wasn't - wasn't comfortable with that so I specifically asked him in that meeting on 6 February so that I had it clear as to exactly how long it would have taken any - - -
PN519
If he was taking taken horses to a meeting what time would you have had to leave and he said around 1 o'clock?---That is correct.
PN520
But you didn't ask him if he was taking the horses to that meeting?---Yes, that is, that - I - I agree.
PN521
Did you ask him what arrangements he had made to attend that meeting?---I don't understand.
PN522
Well, it is a fairly simply question. Did you ask Mr Young what arrangements he had made to attend that trotting meeting?---I didn't ask anything - I said, I am still not quite sure - what, what - sorry, what does arrangements mean?
PN523
Well, what I will put to you is simply this, the evidence will be that Mr Young had arranged to be picked up at the gate at the refinery at 3.30 to get to that meeting?---Okay.
PN524
You didn't ask him that?---No, I - I didn't understand what you meant by arrangements.
PN525
Okay?---No, I didn't ask him that.
PN526
Okay, but he can leave there at 3.30 and get there and drive a horse, can't he?---Again, my personal opinion would be you would be struggling. You would be actually racing in the gate and leaping into the spider and the horse would have to be at the starting gate. I would struggle. I - I drive to Bunbury regularly during the week, for family reasons and 3.40 - it takes 45 to 50 minutes to get to where the - to Donaldson Park in Bunbury.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN527
And your evidence is that he drove a horse at 4.10?---That is - yes.
PN528
And was scheduled to drive that horse at 4.10?---He was scheduled to drive that, and I got a - a copy from the WA Trotting Commission to indicate that K.D. Young was in fact driving that race.
PN529
Sorry, who is K D Young?---Kim Young.
PN530
K.D,?---Sorry, that, that is what is written on there.
PN531
Sorry, I thought it was Katie, not K.D.?---K.D, sorry.
PN532
All right, so - and you have got that printout?---I don't have it here, but yes we do have that.
PN533
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you about to go onto something new Mr Llewellyn?
PN534
MR LLEWELLYN: Yes, I am.
PN535
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time?
PN536
MR LLEWELLYN: Yes, that is fine.
PN537
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have you had any intimation from Mr Knight about his availability?
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN538
MR HEELAN: I understand that he will be here at 1.30 your Honour.
PN539
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 1.30 All right, very well.
PN540
MR HEELAN: If that is convenient to you.
PN541
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, yes we will adjourn. Well Mr Llewellyn, you have no objection to interposing Mr Knight at 1.30?
PN542
MR LLEWELLYN: No sir, I have no difficulty. Mr Heelan and I spoke about it yesterday.
PN543
PN544
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Heelan?
PN545
PN546
MR HEELAN: Mr Knight, what is your current position?---My current position is that of the Wagerup Refinery manager.
PN547
And how long have you been employed by Alcoa for?---I commenced my employment with Alcoa in January of 1980, so this is 23-and-a half years ago.
PN548
And what positions have you held during that time?---The last 20 years have been in line management positions. I commenced as a Graduate Scientist and moved into mining operations and supervision as the Huntley Production Supervisor in 1983. I was appointed to the position of the Willowdale Mine Manager in 1987; to the Jarrahdale Mine Manager in 1989; the Huntley Mine Manager in 1993; and then the Kwinana Digestion Operating Centre Manager in '94; the Precipitation Operating Centre Manager in '97; in '98 I was appointed to the position of Manufacturing Manager at the Kwinana Alumina Refinery in 1999; in December I was appointed the position of the Manufacturing Manager at the Wagerup Alumina Refinery and at the first of May of this year, was when I was appointed to the current position.
PN549
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was going to say that might take a long time. Could you explain your experience and knowledge of Alcoa's operations?---That is pretty broad.
PN550
MR KNIGHT: Well basically the operations are such that it is a - in Western Australia there are currently two mines, three alumina refineries that produce alumina into a global commodity market. The nature of our business is such that we compete into an international export market, like most commodity businesses the usage for us are obviously operating in a, I guess, a way that is consistent with a set of corporate values. The top of those issues to do with safety and health, environment protection, I guess integrity as an organisation and profitability, the issues that we see that are important are all of those elements on the bottom line of the business, the success of our business depends on remaining, I guess, as a low cost producer in a commodity market, this is always important and that is a major focus for our business.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
PN551
MR HEELAN: Could you explain the organisational structure at the Wagerup Refinery and the philosophy underpinning it?---Sure, the - I guess basically, the operating plant is broken up into, what I would call, four major operating centres, this is - that follow the paths of the alumina production process, those major ones are digestion, clarification, precipitation and calcination. Then there is a residue area and a power station which, I guess, providing utilities or in residue, the disposal of sand and mud, they manage that. We then have a central service department which provides a range of plant services including mechanical maintenance, electrical maintenance, some workshop overhaul components and, I guess, that is the nature of the day to day operations in supporting that, I guess your normal range of service functions from finance through HR through to EH and S engineering and so that sort of gives an overview of the operation. In my role prior to May of this year I was the Manufacturing Manager, and the accountability there was for all of those operating centres and the support centres, and basically had the accountability for the internal management of the alumina refinery. In the Plant Manager's role I guess I'm more involved with external issues associated with government and community liaison. The nature of the operation at Wagerup, if I could just take one of those operating centres as an example, there is a manager, there's in the order of about 100 employees within that group. I guess we've got - we've got what I would call a 2IC, it is a position we call the Equipment Management Supervisor, it is a newly created position to provide some more expertise into the equipment management area. The maintenance people within the operating centre report through to that person. The operating people are broken up into two groups, it is a continuous shift group, there's five panels there, and we have currently two group leaders who provide the leadership and the supervision to those five panels and those two group leaders reporting to the Operating Centre Manager. I'm sorry for drawing it out a bit, but it is a sort of fairly complex situation to explain. I'm happy to go into more detail, if you wish.
PN552
How many employees are employed at the Wagerup Refinery?---Last month we had 674, is the exact head count, that is including permanent and temporary employees. It doesn't include those people who are employed by contract organisations that do work for us. There could be another, anywhere between 50 and 200, depending on the size of projects at the time.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
PN553
And is the structure at Wagerup designed around high levels of supervision or low levels of supervision?---No, it is fair to say that when the plant was commissioned in time of the organisational design work was done in the early '80s it was very much based on what was referred to at the time, as the team concept, and I guess our whole recruitment strategy has been based on employing people that can operate within an environment where there's high degrees of individual freedom, but also high degrees of individual and team accountability. And I guess part of our - part of our formula for aiming to be successful and compete on, I guess, a global basis is to employ, what we think is, a very, very, competent workforce, who are highly trained and we think operate most effectively in terms of making their contribution to the business in a way where there are clear, but I guess, quite broad boundaries for autonomy within the work that needs to be done. And from that point of view this is not a traditional workplace where supervision is continuous and is in an environment where people do one job and then come back to the next job half an hour later, that is - there are systems in place where work is planned, people work off those plans, people respond to calls of help from maintenance people, from operating people and as such that is, what we believe, the workplace we are trying to create, and we believe will ultimately give us the competitive edge in the business that we are part of.
PN554
How do employee entitlements, for example, remuneration and hours of work stack up with other workplaces?---The hours of work are a nominal 36 and I guess the annualised pay agreement that we entered into, probably a decade ago, put a commitment on both parties to work towards - you know making that 36 effectively the you know, the limit on which the hours during the week were going to be worked. It was fair to say prior to that we probably averaged somewhere around 4 hours of overtime per person, but I guess the whole move to the annualised pay agreement was intended to try and align employee motivations, were the company's motivation, and as such we pretty quickly got back to a situation where very few people were working in excess of 36 hours. So 36 is a normal working - normal working week. There are probably main shift patterns in the operating, in the maintenance areas, the continuous shift which is a five panel 36 hour week is necessary because of the continuous nature of the plant. And this is mainly operating people. But it is supplemented with some maintenance people, electrical and mechanical, to provide breakdown support, but then the bulk of the maintenance is done on
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
what we call our seven by one roster, this is a 36 hour week roster where employees work during the course of 14 days, they'll work 7, so I have something like three on two off, two on three off, but anyway it works out - they work 7 out of the 14 days and this is a 10.3 a day. It starts at around 6.30, quarter-to-seven and finishes around 5 o'clock. So I guess by some of the standards that you read about from traditional workplaces, I guess this is, I think, seemed to be a pretty attractive place to work if you wanted to judge that by the number of applicants that we would get for a vacancy. It wouldn't be uncommon if we were to advertise for a tradesman or an operator to receive in the order of many hundreds of vacancies for one position and I think that is a fairly clear indication that the nature of the work; the location of the work; and the remuneration that goes with that, is pretty attractive. I think your third question did relate to the remuneration, we moved to an annualised pay system, as I said, some years ago. The operating and the maintenance people would be paid a base rate somewhere between the high 40's into the high 50's, maybe $60,000, is probably getting towards the top end for the electrical tradesmen and on top of that the 10.3 shift allowance which most of the employees work, would equate to another $12-$13,000 a year. So I mean add those two - you're sort of looking between sort of mid sixties to high seventies as a gross annual income for a seven by one shift worker, working a 36 hour week and that is without any overtime.
PN555
Are there additional benefits as well, for example superannuation?---Yes, superannuation is provided to all employees, it is in excess of what is required within the legislation, the exact details I guess I would need to get from the HR experts, but I think it is a contribution at the moment that is in - that is in the order of, I can't remember, I think it was 11 per cent, I would have to check that, your Honour. I'm not exactly sure of the size of the contribution that the company makes, but it is seen to be attractive, it is a program that is kept under constant review and it has been upgraded on a number of occasions over the last few years and we've now got a process in place where it is regularly reviewed with the union stakeholders and retained at some agreed benchmarks. I guess over and above that, there's an opportunity for employees to avail themselves of a share plan which is an opportunity to have, I think it is up to $1,000 a year, of your pre-tax income to purchase shares in Alcoa and I guess looking at other benefits, there's a whole range of things from education tuition aid through to what I think is a fairly generous and leading work and family policy to do with, I guess flexibility to support employees in that sense, there's probably - many others. There's also, I think, allowances paid for insurance -
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
for health insurance, I think there's still a subsidy that is provided there for most employees in one way or another and there's now a - I think there's a 24-hour insurance policy that all employees have that relates to death or some disability associated with activities, whether in the workplace or anywhere else in the world out of the workplace, so that is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
PN556
It would be fair to say that the employees are well looked after?---That would be my view, yes. I think the philosophy is to employ the very best and pay people appropriately.
PN557
Generally they would work a 36 hour week?---That would be the case, yes.
PN558
And they earn good money?---Look, I guess I think it is very good money for the area where we live and if it is an indication that if we get hundreds of vacancies for - hundreds of applications for one vacancy, I think there is a fairly strong indication there that the demand for jobs is high, because of that attraction.
PN559
What is the turnover of employees like?---The last time I looked it was relatively low. It is certainly - wouldn't be much more than about 1 or 2 per cent, now I would have to go and check those facts to validate that but by industry standards it is very low.
PN560
Mr Knight you referred to the APP Agreement and the Annualised Pay Agreement, am I right in assuming you are referring to the existing certified agreement between the company and the Australian Workers Union?---Yes. I think there's a new agreement that is in the process of being finalised which is probably hours away from being ratified. So in many ways the two agreements have a lot of overlap and commonality. So the principles contained in the original agreement, which I think dates back to '91 or 2, I think are almost identical to what is in the current updated agreement.
PN561
Would it be the agreement that is commonly referred to as "the pink book"?---The pink book, yes, that can be it.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
PN562
And the existing certified agreement, does it pick up that philosophy, or elements of the philosophy underpinning the structure at Wagerup?---I think it does pretty well, it is the preamble in the document before it gets into the detail about - about individual job descriptions and those things. It actually talks about some principles and some aims of the agreement and there's again, I think, a very powerful statement in there about the need for employees and management to work closer together, that in a way that would identify and get rid of waste, we wouldn't have demarcations within the workplace that were wasteful. If we were going to succeed in this international commodity business it was essential that we work together and it also makes the point that there are incumbent within this agreement, significant responsibilities on all of us as individuals, to behave in a responsible, constructive way and at all times, I guess, work according to the values of the organisation and I guess at the top of that list, for me, is integrity. And integrity talks about honesty in people, I guess, you know living to the - I guess, that primary principle.
PN563
You referred to waste, does the company have a philosophy in relation to the elimination of waste?---It sure does, I guess for as long as I've been part of the organisation, it has been a source of frustration to management and employees alike and it comes in many ways. I guess, probably the best way to answer your question, more recently in 1996, Alcoa globally adopted what was called the "Alcoa Business System". Three core principles of this, and this was about that - first of all you need to identify your customer and make what your customer wanted, this was a "make to use" principle. And then the second principle talks about now understanding and eliminating waste in all of its forms. And the third one said that, I guess this is a system that will generate the best business outcome and the people that you employ are the key to be the, if you like, the linchpin of that system to ensure that everybody was doing what they needed to do at the right time and at the right place.
PN564
Is there still a regime of supervision and management at the workplace?---Yeah, from a - I guess, a good management point of view, from the point of view of effective duty of care. We have managers who are accountable for the activities within their operating centre and I mean the activities - it also includes all the things that their people are doing. And each team has a clearly defined coordinator or the more recent term we're using is
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
group leader, and that person may be responsible for people across a number of shifts, but very clear lines of accountability that need to be maintained. But in the same token, I mean it is not close supervision, which is I guess the question you asked previously.
PN565
Is there a requirement for all employee absences to be subject to prior approval by a management person?---Yeah, absolutely. I guess the whole basis of creating a work environment where there are clearly - there are high degrees of autonomy and accountability, you know it has got to go hand in hand with that and it is made very clear to people that if they - they are planning to be absent, then they need to notify their immediate supervisor. There are systems that are put in place for that to do - to be done, there are contact numbers available and that is a well established principle that we've always held to.
PN566
And in terms of the duties and responsibilities of an employee, did Kim Young hold up his end of the bargain?---I guess based on the information that came to me I don't believe Kim did. No. I - this is, I guess a summary of the way I see the situation that, Kim had been an employee for a long period of time and it was known to his immediate supervision that there were outside work interests. And this is not uncommon, many, many employees have outside work interests and I guess where it doesn't conflict with the employee's role within the organisation, we have a policy where, you know, we try and accommodate and show a degree of flexibility towards, not so much supporting those activities but acknowledging that, you know life's more than work and that there are activities outside of work. Now I guess the records show that for a number of months there were some significant concerns about the time that Kim was having off and the way that was being notified. His supervisor at the time, John Dobinson, and this is in the middle of '91, sorry, middle of 2001, after - I guess, a number of informal discussions, sat down formally with Kim and explained to him that there were clearly some requirements to do with ensuring that he came to work, that he reported absences that were planned, or in the event that they, you know came up very urgently because of some family situation, as soon as could be reasonably asked of anybody in that situation, to the immediate supervisor that was documented, it was signed, it was agreed. There was, I guess, an apparent improvement in behaviour for - for some months which was monitored and then, I guess, earlier this year it became evident that all of that work had basically - had basically been wasted because the documented requirements about attendance and reporting absences and I guess the commitments that were made by Kim in those previous discussions had basically come to nothing and they weren't being followed.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
PN567
Your Honour, could I ask the witness be shown exhibit A2?---Thank you.
PN568
MR HEELAN: Have you seen that document before, Mr Knight?---Yes I have.
PN569
In terms of the outcomes, is there any room for ambiguity?---When I looked at this some months ago, when the issue was first brought to my attention as a manufacturing manager - I guess I have a philosophy that says I like to consider that I'm a fair person. And I reviewed the - this particular history and I spoke a lot to the people that were accountable for supervising Kim, and I spoke to Kim. And I guess at the end of that I came to the conclusion that there wasn't any ambiguity in this document. It was very clear that within the organisation that we run, the culture that we try and maintain, we do allow significant degrees of freedom. And I think what goes hand in that - hand-in-hand with that is a significant degree of individual accountability. And I believe it is very appropriate if someone, you know, was to for whatever reason, start to drift off the rails, to - and it is only fair to sit down and understand that and see what we can do to help. And my review of this situation was that that had been done comprehensively by Kim's previous coordinator. And it is fact that the previous coordinator, John Dobinson, was subsequent to that work promoted and he had a new assignment at Pinjarra. And it was very apparent that the concerns that John had expressed to Kim had returned and I thought to myself: this is not the sort of thing we need to keep doing. There has been - there has been a very clear documented warning, there's a commitment has been made. I think in the workforce that we are trying to create that we don't want to go back to having high levels of supervision and that Kim had had his warning and as such the notice of termination was quite appropriate.
PN570
Can I just ask you to turn to the first page of the final warning? The second last sentence. Could you explain why there is a reference there to stealing?---If you consider a business, basically we employ people to do a 36 hour week. As I said we have some flexibility around that. There has always been some degree of give and take but it has been done in a very transparent way with clear knowledge of those that basically we are accountable to. And where that
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
transparency is lost, right, then you are getting into I believe a situation of deceit. And deceit with one's time to an employer to me is no - paramount to stealing, what I guess other things that are of value to the same organisation, such as material goods.
PN571
Now you referred to commitments made by Mr Young, in the context of the final warning. How long did you expect that those commitments would stand for, in terms of Mr Young?---I expected they'd stand for the rest of Kim's remaining employment. I mean I - we are not dealing with a 16 or 17 year old apprentice. I - and even in those circumstances I think, you know, there's a degree of maturity that people need to acquire pretty quickly. Kim's married, he's got a family, he understands the accountabilities that go with that. I believe this was very clear. The nature of the expectation and the commitment that came from this was for I guess the duration of remaining employment, you know - it didn't have a time frame on it.
PN572
Has Kim Young been up-front and honest?---Well, with the specific issue of leaving the workplace without notifying his immediate supervision when clearly there was an opportunity to do that, I'd have to say no.
PN573
Has he had any unaccountable hours?---The review that was undertaken following this issue coming to my attention so that there was a - there was a, I guess, an excessive amount of unaccounted hours.
PN574
Has he been AWOL?---Yes, Kim has been absent without leave.
PN575
Has his behaviour been acceptable?---Well, in the context of the business that I have described, no, it is not. Certainly not acceptable to me as the Refinery Manager.
PN576
Has he breached the terms of the final written warning?---I think very clearly they have been breached.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
PN577
On the basis of a one-off, or repeatedly?---No, I think there has been a number of events.
PN578
Do you consider that he has breached his contract of employment?---Yes - no, I think it is very clear that is - that is also.
PN579
As a one-off or repeatedly?---Well, there's been a number of absences that haven't been notified in the appropriate way, so I'd have to say it is more than one-off.
PN580
Mr Knight, do you consider that any more could have been done to help Mr Young?---It is a question I'm going to give you a lengthy answer to. You might have wanted a short one. You could argue that there's always more that can be - that could be done, right. I think at the end of the day, as I said, we run a business where people are given, I think, significant amount of freedom and what goes hand-in-hand with that is a significant amount of accountability. Yes, people can get off the rails. Yes, I think it is appropriate to sit down and see what we can do to try and address the underlying recourse of those and wherever possible try and help. At the end of the day you've got to draw a line in the sand and say no, we've done enough, we need to move on, we've got a multi-million dollar business to run. And no, we can't have a whole lot of people distracted because of the, I guess, the issues with one individual that are generating this amount of waste.
PN581
If Mr Young were to come back to work, what do you consider would be the effect on the front-line management?---It is an interesting question. I guess my challenge in 20 years of line management has been to develop this culture where there is a very effective leadership provided by line management. And to me that is about making sure that line managers don't turn their back on issues, whether they be environment, health, safety issues or whether they be employ performance issues. That they - that they address them when they see them and I guess there's a - there's always been a view expressed to me by some that: well, when we try and address these things we don't get supported, from management - from upper management. And you try and look for, well,
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XN MR HEELAN
which was a specific case and it was, no, often - it is hard to understand those. I believe that from a line management point of view and somebody addressing a performance issue, no, as John has done with Kim in this situation, that this is, this is the way that I would use as the textbook to try and identify what the source of the waste is and help somebody, no, realise that they need to change and be very supportive. But at the same time be very clear with consequences, make sure that things are documented. And my, I guess, my role in terms of leading and developing the line management is such that I, I think it is very important that they identify problems early and engage with people and try and prevent them from developing into larger problems. We have a lot of people that do that extremely well, and I guess I see the circumstances here as a - as, in one sense, a failure. We haven't been able to get the change in behaviour from Kim that is necessary for the business that we are trying to run. But at the end of the day I think we've given it what I believe is a very reasonable and best effort in the circumstances, and it has not been successful. I think we need to - we need to say okay: well, that is the end of the situation, we need to move on. So if Kim was to return to the workplace after what I think is close to a textbook process, the impact on front-line supervision would be a what my manager has been telling me about, no, effectively trying to lead and encourage the right sort of behaviours and help people in a supportive way. No, not to be vindictive but to look at the underlying issues and address those and lay out consequences to people, they'd come back to me and they'd say: Bill, it is all a fallacy, it doesn't happen. All right? So, from my point of view, that would be quite devastating, in a workplace where we are trying to keep, I guess, an ongoing level of effective leadership.
PN582
Thank you Mr Knight. I have nothing further.
PN583
PN584
MR LLEWELLYN: Thanks. Mr Knight, I understand your evidence is that once a warning is issued at ALCOA it lasts forever?---I don't think I said that. I - - -
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN585
What you said in Mr Young's case is the warning he was issued back in July 2001 would last for the rest of his employment.
PN586
MR HEELAN: I object to this, sir, because that wasn't the context of it at all. It was in relation to the commitments that Mr Young gave, may it please the Commission.
PN587
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I think that was the way it was put, Mr Llewellyn.
PN588
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, it is the same thing, it is the warning.
PN589
MR HEELAN: No, it is not.
PN590
MR LLEWELLYN: The warning required they had to live by those commitments and what this witness said is he expected them to last forever - the end of his employment?---I'm happy to try and put that in context if you wish, your Honour.
PN591
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a moment. I will deal with the objection. It was put in terms of Mr Young giving a commitment that he would conform with the requirements of responsibilities and things like that, in that context, I think, so - - -
PN592
MR LLEWELLYN: I'll deal with it that way then.
PN593
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN594
MR LLEWELLYN: In terms of the commitments given, were they expected to last for the length of his employment?---Certainly in this written document that would be, that would be my understanding.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN595
And what happens if he breached that commitment?---If that commitment was breached, then my, my expectation would be that - that the context of that would be understood, right? And if there was no extenuating circumstances then effectively what had been written and agreed would be the basis to which TO go forward. Now - - -
PN596
So what is that, in this case?---In this particular case, if it has been made very clear that the way absences are reported needs to be followed according to a particularly laid out procedure, and if that wasn't done, then that could clearly jeopardise the employment of that individual.
PN597
So the warning that he was given lasts for the length of his employment?---I guess you'd say "warning". I believe there were significant warnings - I use the "warning" in a, I guess, a different context. I think the word "warning" to me is often something that is the basis of a discussion between an employer and an employee over a number of issues. Now they could be verbal, they could be what we refer to in our coordinator's manual as a just a diary note. I mean those things would constitute something that would be a warning, but in this case I think we've got a very clear, final warning. I don't get too fussed with whether the word is "reprimand" or "warning". It is very clear to me that the language in here is saying that - that employment can be terminated if AWOL or other unaccepted behaviours continue. Now, that is a very clear statement in this document.
PN598
All right. So, in terms of this document, your view is the final warning is the last chance he gets for the rest of his employment?---I'd take other factors into consideration. If this was a 20 year old document and there were - even a 10 year old document, and there were some extremely significant family circumstances, if the context of the business had changed substantially since the time of the warning, I'd certainly sit down and try and get an understanding about whether this was still fair. I guess at the end of the day the issue for me is about fairness.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN599
All right. Well, in terms of what you looked into in relation to Mr Young, prior to this, or the instance that resulted in this particular final warning, what was his work history like?---I guess I don't - we don't have a - a well-implemented process of regular, written performance appraisals. We've certainly got a commitment to develop those as part of our, our past and current agreement, so - - -
PN600
You would have a personnel file that would show what sort of warnings he has had, wouldn't you?---There is some information that goes on personnel files. I think that if your question related to: did I get a glowing reference about the sort of employee that Kim was, absolutely not. Was Kim seen to be a disastrous trouble-maker, no. But there was a very clear, clear history where the performance wasn't up to scratch. That had been identified, it had been documented. There had been a very, I think, significant commitment made on behalf of Kim to his employer that there would be change. And I think it was very evident to me that the moment the supervisor from that area left so did that commitment - on behalf of Kim.
PN601
So the supervisor left in December, that is right, isn't it? Mr Dobinson left at the beginning of December?---I'd have to check. I think it was - not exactly sure when he left but - - -
PN602
You are not sure when he left?---It was certainly some time after this. He was appointed to a position at the Pinjarra refinery - if I racked my brains I could probably, I could probably get the exact date.
PN603
But you are aware that there are a large number of flexible arrangements within the workplace, aren't you?---Absolutely, yeah, I'd be a strong proponent of those. I personally have a, I guess, a large family, a wife who works, and school-aged children. I've been availed by my immediate supervisor if some of the flexibility that the working family policy provides for. That has been on the basis of very open, up-front discussion about those arrangements where I
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
could start late, I could finish early. This was in a senior management position, and that I'd do, I guess, my work out of hours to make up for that. So, I can speak of that from a personal basis, and I know that lots of our employees, because of the environment in which we live and the roster system that they work, are able to partake in a wide range of activities, whether they be sporting, whether they be community activities, whether they be local government. And I think this is, this is something that I think is very important because we want our employees to be part of the community and we want, we want, I guess, to let them use the expertise that they can gain from a workplace and vice versa. Us, as an organisation, use the expertise that they gain from the community. And so, yeah, I'm a very strong advocate of those arrangements within the boundaries, you know? And those boundaries are that they're very transparently discussed and agreed with your immediate supervisor.
PN604
I think the expression you used there, "transparent but very broad"?---No, I think they are very clear. It - I don't - - -
PN605
But these arrangements can be done between the direct supervisor and the employee with no - nothing higher than that. That is right, isn't it?---It certainly can be done that way, yes. The - - -
PN606
I mean, that is why there is things operate in your refinery, such as: work a day, have two days off. I can come in and do a roster - re-rostered day and get two rostered days off for the price of one?---Again, I can explain it if you'd like to go into the detail. We have - - -
PN607
Where does that occur?---Well, what I can explain to you is that we have a situation where people either work continuous shift or the 10.3 hour shift as I explained earlier.
PN608
Mr Knight, are you aware of the arrangement?---Oh yes.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN609
Where does it occur?---It certainly occurs in parts of our milling building and - but I can actually refer you to a document that I endorsed a year ago where occasionally somebody who would normally only work a standard 10.3 hour day would be required to come and work a 12 hour day, or two 12 hour days, or three 12 hour days. And part of the proposal that was put to me was in a workplace where we are trying to get some sort of balance and how do you actually ensure that there is equity in that situation. And we came up with the agreement that should somebody who normally works a 12 hour, I mean, a 10.3 hour shift have to do some 12 hour shifts. And let's say he did three of those, which worked 36 hours, then he would have the nearest but we'd be generous on the top side because of flexibility - he would have four 10.3 hours shifts off. So if you take that back to its origin, if somebody worked one 12 hour shift, then by the logic that I've explained they would be entitled to two 10.3 hour shifts off. Now - - -
PN610
Or two 12 hour shifts off?---No, that wouldn't be consistent with the agreement that I've endorsed.
PN611
But that happens. In your refinery it happens.---No, not to my knowledge.
PN612
Not to your knowledge?---No, certainly not without my consent.
PN613
But is that outside the clear bounds?---That is certainly not an agreement that has got my consent, and if- - -
PN614
What I asked is, is it outside the clear boundaries?---Yes it is.
PN615
So if the supervisors were approving that and employees were doing it, you would see that as breaching the rules and stealing time?---I'd certainly see that the supervisor in that situation wasn't aware of the standards that they need to be complying with, and that would need to be addressed.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN616
What about where employees were rostered to work during the week continuously and getting paid weekend penalties?---That is a fairly common arrangement, but again you need to understand the context. The majority of our people are shift workers. As such, their shift allowance becomes a fairly expected part of their fortnightly income. From time to time we all have significant projects that we want to re-deploy people to undertake, and often the best way to have that done is on a Monday to Friday arrangement. We think that should be an arrangement where there is no penalty to the individual involved and as such we've continued to pay them their weekend premiums for the duration at a time. Again there's some policy provisions written around that and it is - when I say "common" I mean I'm aware of many circumstances where that has happened.
PN617
All right. But most of these arrangements are left up to between the supervisor and the employee, that is correct, isn't it?---The detail of the transaction and the organising of that is something that is obviously managed between the individual and their immediate supervisor. The provisions and the guidelines under which that is organised is documented as part of a series of HR polices and procedures that we expect our front-line supervision to understand and comply with.
PN618
Right, that is policies and procedures for your front-line supervisors?---Mm hm.
PN619
You are also aware of arrangements whereby employees would notify their work peers if they weren't available for work?---I have heard that and again I would - I'd be suggesting to people that - that is an arrangement that is not consistent with the way that people have been inducted, have been trained, have been, I guess, have agreed to, within the conditions of their contract of employment. And in some of the crews that we have today, right, there are some situations where there isn't an immediate supervisor on site and we've tried to make it very clear to people that those people carry mobile phones, they're still contactable and the proper procedure is to notify the immediately supervisor of any proposed absence. Now, in the past some people may have decided that notifying one of their co-workers was acceptable. And if - my
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
expectation would be if somebody thought that was acceptable to continue, that we sit down and explain to the person that it is not acceptable, that that needs to be addressed. And I guess in Kim's situation I think it is a very clear line that has been drawn between those arrangements and what's happened here. This is a documented final warning that says: no, don't ever do that again.
PN620
I will get to that in a minute, but it is a common practice on your work site that people do notify work mates or more particularly, notify the work team they are supposed to be working with that they won't be present, to notify that team that they won't be there?---I don't think it is a common practice. It may have been a practice from some individuals and if that is a misunderstanding that they have, we correct that.
PN621
All right. In terms of the agreement, Mr Heelan took you through the principles and objectives and what have you. Those principles and objectives are common across all of the ALCOA agreements, are they not?---I'm pretty familiar with the Kwinana one, the mining ones, I would - - -
PN622
One would hope Wagerup now.---I would hope Wagerup now, yes. And I think those are pretty consistent principles, yeah. Now, there are some differences - - -
PN623
They are actually identical in each of the books.---There are some differences in the wording in some of the implementation, some of the words like the way decisions are going to be made. Some documents say "jointly determined" and others use different words, but in essence the principles I think are the same.
PN624
But the principles about how things work and the contracts of employment are the same, whether it is Wagerup refinery, Kwinana refinery or Pinjarra refinery?---Mm hm.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN625
That is correct, isn't it?---The contracts of employment - there's about three questions here. So the principles of the agreement, to answer that question I'd need to go back to each of the documents and actually check line by line. My understanding was that basically they have got a common intent. If you're talking about contracts of employment, a review that I undertook 12 months ago with a, I guess, a similar issue to this actually highlighted that we had about three variations in contracts of employment in 12 years. So again some of the changes are small but it would be technically correct to say that there have been some slight variations in those.
PN626
All right, well, let us deal with the issues that seem to be in hand in this matter. The issue of notifying your direct supervisor of absences, are they the same across the board?---Are they the same across the board?
PN627
Yeah, for Alcoa?---Again I can't think of any reference to that in the certified agreements.
PN628
What about contracts of employment?---Certainly contracts of employment would make that point I would think. Now, again, contracts of employment, as I said, my research at Wagerup showed there were three variations. My expectation would be they would all be pretty consistent on that point.
PN629
But the rules, the rules are the same across the board, whether in Pinjarra or Kwinana or Wagerup, aren't they, that I'm required to notify my coordinator on your evidence?---That is my understanding.
PN630
So would it surprise you that people do things like notify the CA that they are going to go home today and play football?---It is, again, taking that exchange in isolation I think would be very surprising if it was a pre-arranged activity with the immediate supervisor of that crew and - - -
PN631
Let me put it in context for you?--- - - - part of the notification to the CA was to let the CA know that, no, a pre-arranged notification was now to be implemented that wouldn't surprise me.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN632
Well, let me put it in context for you. People - it is common for people to notify the CA or their workmates that they are going to go home today and: play football because the work commitments will allow me to do that, and: I'll see my coordinator on Monday or Tuesday and arrange to make up the time.
PN633
That, to me, would not be a common arrangement. My expectation would be that an arrangement like that would have been discussed beforehand. Again, let me give some situations. Take my own personal case that I had a working family balancing issue with my immediate supervisor some years ago. The arrangement that I had with him was that on some days I would need to leave early to pick up my children. Okay? That was a very clearly discussed and well understood arrangement between both parties. I said that in some circumstances if I get a call that one of them is sick and I need to pick him up from school, what I will do is head off to go and get them and I will give you a call as soon as I can possibly do that. You could be at a meeting. That is the sort of arrangement that I would expect. But I would make the clarifying point. The precursor to those arrangements is a very clearly understood set of boundaries between the individual and the employer.
PN634
In terms of Mr Young, Mr Young's evidence will be that in time he has worked for Alcoa, almost 18 years - - - ?---Yes.
PN635
- - - he has never had a problem getting time off to attend his trotting meetings. Re-rostering for those. Would you agree with that?---Look, I am not sure. I understand that Mr Young has been an employee for somewhere near 18 years. During that time he has had a number of different supervisors. And those supervisors have, again, worked with Kim as they would with other employees, to try and get a right balance between work and out of work issues. I guess the difference here is that the extension of that freedom got to the point where there was a lot more give than take. And that, sort of, says enough is enough. Right?
PN636
When did that occur?---Well, that occurred, I guess, over a number of events. And if you look at this particular document here from Mr Dobinson - - -
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN637
Well, Mr Knight, that particular document wasn't anything to do with him having time off for trotting meetings?---Well, I would - - -
PN638
Well, the evidence will be that that particular document arose out of a period of time when Mr Young was simply blowing shifts because he was off gambling and basically drinking heavily. Had a number of personal issues. It had nothing to do with him attending trotting meetings. And in fact the evidence will be since that document was signed, as a matter of fact about 3 days after that document was signed, he continued to attend trotting meetings. And has continued to do it from that period right up until his dismissal, on a regular basis, with no problems. Re-rostering the time on every occasion. Have you looked into that?---I am not sure what the question is.
PN639
Well, would that surprise you that that was the case?---You will have to ask me the question again. I lost it somewhere.
PN640
Well, the fact that Mr Young, even since that warning was issued - - - ?---Yes.
PN641
- - - within days of it being issued, as a matter of fact - - - ?---Yes.
PN642
- - - continued to attend trotting meetings - - - ?---Yes.
PN643
- - - on a regular basis, taking time off work and re-rostering the hours, right up until his dismissal with no problem?---Well, there was a problem.
PN644
In February of this year?---There was clearly a problem.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN645
In February of this year?---Look, the nature of this final warning was not for Mr Young to give up his interest in trotters. Okay? It was to make very clear to him that he had some accountabilities within a workplace. All right? That the - I guess the quantum of his absences were such that it was becoming excessive. That if he needed time of off, yes, there were some flexible arrangements. But these are the rules. All right? You talk to me beforehand. Right? And make sure that we clearly understand what is going on. Right? And I encourage that sort of interaction between supervisor and individual. When the circumstance is such that the clear opportunity to do that with the immediate supervisor and then, I guess, the department head is sitting in front of Mr Young on a day before he has planned to go to a trotting meeting and he chooses not to take that, to me, I believe that is deceitful and that is a breach of the trust that we have agreed.
PN646
Mr Knight, he wasn't sitting in front of those people. They were sitting in an office meeting. You knew where they were?---Well, they walked past each other in a corridor.
PN647
He specifically went there to see him but the person he sought to see simply ignored him?---Yeah. Well, I have a different view of that. And I guess that will come out during the course of this hearing.
PN648
Now, who was the person that was his co-ordinator?---Well, there is - t the time, Colin had been looking after the crew but at the time, Murray Maughan was the supervisor of the department. And there was a clear opportunity, as I understand, to make contact with Murray.
PN649
And who was Mr Young's co-ordinator?---I guess we are going through, I guess, some history that I would have to go back and check. I know Colin Eastick was there covering for some time. And there was also a contract co-ordinator, I can't remember his name, who was brought into the crew at that particular time as well.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN650
I mean, one of the members of the crew actually wrote to you about this, didn't they?---I have had a number of letters about this. I have even had people volunteering to resign so that Kim can continue to work.
PN651
That his work mates, so to speak?---Well, I guess that would be a matter for Kim to determine whether that person was a work mate or not.
PN652
All right. But it has had a fairly dramatic effect right across the refineries, hasn't it? As a matter of fact, right across Alcoa?---I am not sure what you mean by dramatic. I mean, it is certainly an issue that has got us to this situation. I guess the point that I made to people at the time was, "Look, this is clearly a breach of trust that has been placed in somebody. We can't continue." I mean, I had all sorts of offers about, "Well, look, we will give up the horses now. We will make sure that we supervise Kim. We will look after it." And I am saying, "Look, it is - the opportunity was there. The chances were given. Those expectations were there. We are not dealing with - you know, with a teenage person. We are dealing with an adult who has got responsibilities and knows them." And I guess from my point of view - - -
PN653
Mr Knight, wasn't it correct that this issue was sufficient that all of the refineries threatened to close down because what Mr Young was doing was no different to any number of employees within your operation?---I don't believe all the refineries threatened to close down. I understand there was - this issue was raised at a union meeting. And according to proper procedure that we have got, the - there was - I guess there was some concern expressed by some people that, does this mean all of the flexible arrangements that I have had in place are in some way jeopardised and I guess my - my comment to the union hierarchy was absolutely not, we will continue to manage with high degrees of autonomy, high degrees of accountability if somebody steps outside those boundaries, we will address it with the individual or try and under - I guess, get to the root cause of those issues, we will try and help. We've got a very effective line management very well supported by an HR organisation and people will get a fair go. Now, once I've explained to peopled and I've had a number of conversations around the work site, people stopping me saying: what is going on; I've made that point to them and they've said: no, I think you are right, I think Kim had a fair go. Now, that is a conversation I've had with a lot of people.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN654
But none of his work colleagues obviously?---With a lot of his work colleagues.
PN655
I mean, you have got employees in your refineries that have worked as little as two hours in 19 shifts, what sort of stealing time is that?---I am not aware of that circumstance.
PN656
You are not aware of that, okay. But you were aware at the time that this went on with Mr Young that Mr Zander wrote to you about the fact that it was unclear who their co-ordinator was?---I think he wrote to my manager at the time. I - I do remember seeing a copy of the letter, I am not sure it was addressed to me or whether it was addressed to the Plant Manager at the time.
PN657
Well, it was addressed to Anne Witty and yourself wasn't it?---That is right. I think it was copied to me.
PN658
Well you responded to it?---I probably did.
PN659
I just wonder if I can have the witness shown this document, thanks?---Thank you.
PN660
Do you recognise that?---Yes, I do. So it was addressed to Ann and myself, do you want me to read it?
PN661
What into record or do you just want to have a read through of it now?---No, no, whatever you prefer.
PN662
Right. Well, I will take you down to the last paragraph?---Well, I think it is probably better to see the whole context, but anyway.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN663
Last paragraph indicates that:
PN664
Another issue in this situation is one of supervision and contact points, OC2 electrical have had a temporary replacement co-ordinator, Tony Quinzi, since John has left. Tony recently went on leave and left our crew basically self managed. Colin Eastick is supposed to be looking after our interests but obviously his other duties have priority, he is rarely seen in OC2. Colin's appointment didn't seem to be widely or formally communicated, therefore the issue arises who does Kim contact.
PN665
?---I guess I would say that in an organisation where we employ very capable people who have got an enormous amount of experience, 18 years in this particular case, where the lines of communication up and down the organisation are - are very open. But if I had a situation where within the last 18 months my supervisor had made it very clear to me that my employment was going to be placed in jeopardy should I not clearly communicate my absences I would find somebody and that would be my expectation of any employee in the organisation.
PN666
All right. If I put it to you then the evidence will that in relation to that so called expectation, what that amounted to was Mr Dobinson coming in of a morning and saying: the trots are on this afternoon, Kim, I suppose you're going home early?---Look, I am not familiar with the way that John would speak to his crew, I've got an enormous amount of respect for his capability so does the organisation. He - - -
PN667
I am not arguing about that. If the arrangement was simply an acknowledgment by Mr Dobinson that today is trot day?---Yes.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN668
Therefore, you are going home early and Mr Young's response to that was: yes, I am or no, I am not; that is not really notification of an agreement or what have you, is it, it is an acceptance that that is the regular practice that he does on those days?---Again, I think it has got to be looked at within the context of - of preceding discussions and - and if that is - as I understand there were some fairly lengthy one on one discussions where the arrangements that Kim was looking to undertake and John was prepared to - to be supportive of were such that, no, those - those communication requirements were pretty clear.
PN669
But, I mean, your letter of termination says that Mr Dobinson didn't allow any flexibility for Mr Young to attend trotting. Don't you remember what you wrote:
PN670
Following a final warning your supervisor, John Dobinson, did not approve any flexibility for you to attend trotting meetings during work time. In fact, on at least three occasions he rejected requests made by you in that regard.
PN671
?---Mm hm.
PN672
So, didn't allow any flexibility, so Mr Young wasn't allowed to attend trots and make up time at any time, is that right?---I guess - - -
PN673
MR HEELAN: Your Honour, seeing as the witness' memory is being tested could he at least be shown exhibit A4 with this line of questioning?
PN674
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, first of all, do you want to tender the e-mail?
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN675
PN676
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, you were asking questions about the termination letter, were you?
PN677
MR LLEWELLYN: That is correct.
PN678
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, perhaps - - -
PN679
MR LLEWELLYN: I am happy if the witness can have a look at A4.
PN680
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As a matter of fairness the witness should have that, yes.
PN681
MR LLEWELLYN: Mr Knight, I just direct you to the third paragraph. So is it my understanding according to that paragraph, Mr Young, wasn't allowed any flexibility to attend trotting meetings?---Sorry, I am - I am just reading the whole thing, so:
PN682
Following that final warning your supervisor, John Dobinson, did not approve any flexibility for you to attend trotting meetings during working time. In fact, on at least three occasions he rejected requests.
PN683
That was information provided to me by John.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN684
So, would it surprise you to know that Mr Young continued to attend trotting meetings and continued to re-roster time?---Well, he may have attended trotting meetings outside of working time and he may have re-rostered time.
PN685
Well, he wouldn't need to re-roster time to attend them outside of working time would he?---No, that is correct, no, that is right.
PN686
Re-rostering is a flexibility, isn't it?---Re-rostering is an arrangement whereby normally one employee works in a situation where people - people actually swap working arrangements, but it can - it can be extended to be a circumstance where if somebody has an urgent family situation and they're able to some time of work and make it up at a later date.
PN687
Right. It would be a circumstance in Mr Young's case where he knocked off at midday on a Monday and made up the three and a half hours at some other time?---Yes, that - that could be a situation, I would - I would expect that to be fairly limited though, not a standard arrangement.
PN688
So after the warning you would expect that that didn't occur any more on your information from Mr Dobinson?---That would be right.
PN689
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I just ask, is Mr Dobinson being called by anybody to give evidence?
PN690
MR LLEWELLYN: I understand he is the next witness after we finish with Mr Maughan.
PN691
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.
PN692
MR LLEWELLYN: So it surprised you then that Mr Young continued to attend the regular Monday trotting meeting in Pinjarra and the regular Friday trotting meeting?---Well, one of those days will be a rostered day off, so it wouldn't surprise me if he is attending on a rostered day off.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN693
Only every second one of those would be a rostered day off, wouldn't it?---Yes, that is right. So, again, if he attended after - after working hours that would be fine.
PN694
Well, Mr Young's trotting commitments on the Mondays occasionally fell on a rostered day off, it more often fell on a rostered day. He only gets every second Monday off, doesn't he, as an RDO?---Second Monday and then public holiday, sort of, occupy a fair chunk of those as well. So, it would surprise me that there were arrangements that John had, I guess, openly, sort of, and actively supported for - for Kim to attend trotting meetings after that warning.
PN695
And if he had and the evidence will be that he did, in fact, Mr Young not only attended trotting meetings on a Monday to race his own horses but also to participate in his activity with the pony trots. You are aware of his activities with the pony trots?---I am not.
PN696
So you are not aware of the Hero Program where he was awarded, well, I am told it is not an award, he was recognised by that for his work with the pony trots?---No, now that you remind me I am aware of that, yes.
PN697
You are also aware of the article that appeared on the Alcoa website pointing out that he helps out with the pony trots as well, in the Alcoa News?---Mm.
PN698
6 December 2002 on your website?---Yes, as I said before, I think there is a very, I don't know, an enormous number of opportunities for employees to be involved in community activities and I encourage that.
PN699
This takes place at 3.00 o'clock on a Monday afternoon, he is still at work then as well, isn't he?---Again, not if it is a rostered day off and it depends on what time he started, he can normally finish by 3.00 o'clock.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN700
Well, normal knock off time is 3.30 according to the evidence we've been given?---Again, there is some flexibility around that from time to time.
PN701
So, he has got flexibility to go and do his trots then?---I guess, the - the information I have that it wasn't a standing arrangement and I guess what John has told me here that three occasions he rejected requests that were made in that regard.
PN702
Mr Young's evidence will be he can't recall any occasion that it was rejected and within days, as a matter of fact on our records he was first spoken to on 27 July about that written warning?---Mm hm.
PN703
He attended his next trotting meeting and drove a horse at two minutes past three on the 30th of the 7th, the day before he was actually handed the letter. So that was three days after he was told about his attendance and what you say he wasn't allowed any more flexibility that he was out driving his trotter again in the Pinjarra races. That is three days after he was told?---Mm.
PN704
And that arrangement continued right up to his termination?---So, I guess, on the information provided to me, right, John hadn't approved any flexibility, right, for trotting meetings. I guess, if you're saying that he had I would - I would maintain that there was still a very clear arrangement about how that was going to happen and it was not something that was done in ad hoc way and a deceitful way without making sure that people were fully informed of that.
PN705
If it was accepted that it was regular custom and practice for him to attend, in other words: today is Monday, the trots are on you're going home, you're racing this afternoon, Kim, I guess you're going home early; that is a fairly casual way of doing it, isn't it?---Again, I - I - I wasn't there at the time, I am not sure of the nature of the conversation, I've never heard a conversation like that.
PN706
Th evidence will be, from not only Mr Young but also a number of his work colleagues that were present when Mr Dobinson made those comments.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN707
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think there is an objection, Mr Llewellyn.
PN708
MR LLEWELLYN: Sorry.
PN709
MR HEELAN: Your Honour, surely these are questions more appropriately put to Mr Dobinson who will be on shortly, may it please the Commission?
PN710
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, I don't agree, this is the witness that made - this is the person that ultimately made the decision to terminate.
PN711
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but if Mr Dobinson is the person you're saying was allowing that to go on, isn't Mr Dobinson the one to answer for it?
PN712
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, he is but, I mean, this witness gave evidence and my friend put it to him in the witness box that what effect would all this have on line management.
PN713
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but this witness - - -
PN714
MR LLEWELLYN: Now, all the information - - -
PN715
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr Llewellyn, this witness said he didn't understand or didn't know that arrangement was going with Mr Dobinson.
PN716
MR LLEWELLYN: I understand that, but if that arrangement had been going on it effects this witnesses answer to that question as well in my view and I am entitled to run him through - - -
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN717
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In what way, sorry, in what way?
PN718
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, if line management was making it a custom and practice and simply allowing it to occur.
PN719
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN720
MR LLEWELLYN: Then the so called effect it would have on line management of not backing them up if Mr Young was reinstated is a farce. There was nothing to back up, if the line management make it a custom and practice and something that is followed easily and done on a regular and systematic basis. And my friend seems to want to make - he has done it with Mr Maughan and I will take Mr Maughan through it also, he wants to - - -
PN721
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, look, I will allow the question but, I mean, I don't want to be asking questions of one witness that really isn't going to have a lot of impact or carry a lot of weight at the end of the day because we are going to be here forever and day if you're going to ask Mr Knight about things that are done by other managers about which he has no knowledge.
PN722
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, this is - - -
PN723
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean, at the end of the day that might be an argument you want to put or how could Mr Knight possibly make a decision based on the knowledge that he had when it wasn't special knowledge, it wasn't adequate or full knowledge, but that is an argument you might want to put and it depends what comes out later on in the evidence.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN724
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, one of the things you put to my friend in his opening and I will address it in my opening more fully, was the issue about on what basis should you be determining this matter. Now, my friend never actually gave an answer to the question, as such, but in our view this all relates. It is an industrial dispute and it is a fairness and equity question and I put it no higher than that at this moment. It is a matter of examining what is going on around the place. Now, Mr Knight is the person, so to speak, that the buck stopped with him and he made the decision at the end of the day that Mr Young's performance was so bad that he had to terminate him.
PN725
This witness has given evidence under oath of all these breaches, now he either knew about them or he didn't. Now, if he didn't I mean to establish he didn't know about them and if he didn't know about them then he wants his place to make evidence under oath that that is what was occurring.
PN726
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The problem is, I suppose, that Mr Dobinson hasn't given evidence yet and Mr Dobinson may or may not agree with what you're putting to Mr - what happens if Mr Dobinson gets in the witness box and says: well, that never occurred, what you're saying never occurred, that might be what you are instructed, but that never occurred; what happens then?
PN727
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, it may be but that is the problem with interposing witnesses and I can't wait until Mr Dobinson has been in there and say I now want to go back and talk to Mr Knight about this.
PN728
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, put the question, I mean, I just don't want, as I say, to be taking up time unnecessarily with questions that at the end of the day might have little weight.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN729
MR LLEWELLYN: Okay. Mr Knight, in terms of where it became a common practice for Mr Young to automatically get that time off, even post that warning, would that surprise you?---Again, I am not sure what you mean by automatically get that time off. I - I am not sure of the frequency, I guess the way that the - the situation was explained to me, that the issues in Kim's life that were causing absence were more than trotting, right. There were some personal issues that you've made reference to, there was by Kim's own testimony, come issues related his wife's health that were - were also causing absence. Now, I believe it was very appropriate for the supervisor to continue to have no strong support for showing flexibility in those situations. So, if they happen to coincide with a trotting event, I am not sure that, no, that the supervisor would have been, I guess, trying to make a strong distinction between one or the other. Again, not being first hand in the situation, I guess my understanding from John that the - I think it is the trotting arrangements causing such a substantial amount of loss of work time and variations to the working pattern, needed to change. Now, the fact that Kim was involved in some of these things from a community point of view, I would think that John was probably going to be supportive of those things.
PN730
All right. But the question I asked you and I will try it again, in the 18 months since that written warning was issued - - - ?---Yes.
PN731
- - - Mr Young continued to regularly attend trotting meetings by leaving work early on Mondays and Fridays every week - - - ?---Yes.
PN732
- - - virtually - - - ?---Yes.
PN733
- - - that meeting was on. Would that surprise you that that arrangement continued on to the extent that the comments from Mr Dobinson in the morning was, "The trots are on so I suppose you are going home early today, Kim"?---Yeah. To that extent, if that was a regular event, that would certainly surprise me.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN734
And if it was that regular and that was the description that the employees, other employees, will give, would that have made a difference to your decision to terminate?---No, it wouldn't.
PN735
Why?---Well, again, I go back to, I guess, the events that I make reference to in this letter. And I think this is at the crux of it for me.
PN736
Which letter are you going back to?---The letter that you gave me.
PN737
The 4th?---This is the - - -
PN738
I gave you two?---- - - letter of termination. Okay. And it has actually helped with events that:
PN739
You were absent at work on 4 February in circumstances where you had pre-planned -
PN740
This is point 8.
PN741
Yes?---
PN742
You were absent at work on 4 February in circumstances where you had pre-planned to participate at a trotting meeting in Bunbury that day and we became aware of your failure to attend for work on the basis of earlier agreed re-rostering arrangements on Saturday, 25 January.
PN743
I guess - no, that is not the clause I was looking for. Basically, there was a situation that - and, again, if I read - - -
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN744
Well, find the clause. I am happy for you to find it?---All right. Maybe it is a previous clause. It is many months since we had this discussion. Okay, let me start at the front. I guess point 3, you have made reference to:
PN745
Following that final warning we were led to believe that your behaviour and approach to change required - on Monday 3 February you absented yourself from work without authorisation during the course of the shift. And on Monday the 30th you participated at a trotting meeting during time when you should have been at work. So, it is absence from your work whilst without any necessary approval and was contrary to all requirements in the circumstances.
PN746
That was Monday the 3rd. Management became aware of 3 February:
PN747
Unauthorised absence at work as a result of another employee, either a part owner or trainer of the horse you were racing having requested approval for absence from work for 2 hours during the shift that day for which he was granted and on the basis of business needs being met and the employee volunteering to take up the absence later that day. I guess subsequent to your unauthorised absence on the 3rd, which is the Monday, you were absent on the 4th in a circumstance where you had pre-planned to participate at a trotting meeting. Now, we are aware of the fact that you had pre-planned to participate at a trotting meeting because, as I understand, there is a nomination process that happens some days in advance of the event -
PN748
and Kim's name was published there which subsequently came to light -
PN749
and we became aware of your failure to attend for work on the basis of earlier agreed re-rostering arrangements.
PN750
But the failure to attend for work on the 4th was, I understand, initially notified as a family illness and it all seems too coincidental to me that the family illness was such that Kim was able to get the horses into a suitable transport and get to Bunbury in adequate time for, I guess, a 3 o'clock start at a meeting so - - -
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN751
So, you don't know what the family illness was then?---Kim did explain to me. I am not sure it is for me to be repeating it here but - - -
PN752
Well, what was explained to you?---Kim made the point to me that his wife did suffer with a fairly, sort of, debilitating illness and that from time to time it could cause her to be, I guess, needing significant help. I can't remember the exact diagnosis but that was it. And my expectation is that, no, that is something that should be provided. In the event that you are not needed any longer and you are due to be at work, you should be at work. I wouldn't expect that you are going to hook up the float and head off to the trots, especially when it was already pre-arranged. You know, that to me, sounds like a fairly deceitful arrangement.
PN753
So, are you questioning that he needed to stay home to look after his wife?---No.
PN754
So, where is the deceit?---What I am questioning is that Kim knew that he was going to be at a trot meeting that afternoon. He was obviously able to look after his wife and get to that trot meeting and he knew that he was going to be at the trot meeting before his wife became unwell. All I am saying is that - - -
PN755
But he didn't know that his wife was going to become unwell, did he?---No. And I guess my expectation in that circumstance, when you have been given a very strong, clear, final written warning is you don't play with it. Right? You get on the phone to your boss and you say, "Here is the details." Right? And if you can't find your boss, you ring the next person in the line. I mean, you just - you are in a situation - you understand what your responsibilities are. You take accountability for your action. You get hold of somebody and you say, "Look, my wife wasn't well this morning." All right? "I have booked to be at a race meeting this afternoon." Right? "I have nominated to be there. No, I plan to go there." Now, you just - you - I guess my reasoning and logic in this situation is that once you have been put on notice, no, you do something to change your behaviour and you take that warning seriously.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN756
And you make sure you never alter from that change of behaviour ever?---I didn't - - -
PN757
That is your view, isn't it?---I didn't say that. No, I said - - -
PN758
But that is what you are saying?---No, what I am saying is that - - -
PN759
That is what you have been saying all along, Mr Knight?---- - - you take responsibility for your actions, once you have been given a warning.
PN760
And if you breach a behaviour we expected from you once more, you are out?---Realise that you have got responsibilities as an employee. Not just to the organisation but you have also got those responsibilities to your family. Right? Stop taking the organisation for a ride. No, wake up to yourself. And, no, start to, I guess, put some priority where the priority needs to be placed. Now, that as a pretty clear message.
PN761
All right. Apart from the day you are complaining of, 25 January, name one other day where Mr Young didn't make up his hours that he took off?---I can't do that. I mean I - - -
PN762
Well, you said there were a number of them. Name one other than 25 January?---I don't think I said there was a number of them.
PN763
Well, you said in your evidence there is a large number of unequitted hours. Name one of them other than 25 January?---Okay. I guess there was - based on John's note here, we had a situation where - - -
PN764
That is back in 2001?---9th of the 11th '99, AWOL. 18th of the 7th 01, unaccounted from - - -
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN765
Mr Knight, since that warning, name one - - - ?---Sorry? Since that warning?
PN766
Name one. Since the warning, name one other than 25 January?---Well, I think I just quoted you 3 February or the 4th.
PN767
Well, he hasn't been back - - - ?---It is a Monday.
PN768
He hasn't been allowed back at work since then?---No, no, no.
PN769
Name one?---3 February was a rostered work day and Kim was absent without leave.
PN770
Well - - - ?---He left the worksite without notifying anybody.
PN771
What I asked you to do was to tell me when Mr Young didn't make the hours when he left work early. Name one other than 25 January?---That is, I guess - that is not the point I am trying to make. 25 January was not made up. But there were other situations where the clearly notified arrangements for absences were just totally ignored and there were plenty of opportunities to do that. And I - - -
PN772
Mr Knight, your evidence under oath was in relation to have there been any unaccountable hours. You said it is excessive. Now, I am asking you, since the warning, apart from 25 January, name one occasion when Mr Young didn't make up his hours?---Okay. My evidence was for Kim's employment. Okay?
PN773
His whole employment?---And I still hold that the hours that were absent were excessive. Right? He was also absent on 4 February without any authorisation.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN774
All right?---That is not acceptable.
PN775
Well, let's deal with that evidence then. Back in July 2001 he was given a warning to tell him to modify his behaviour. That is correct, isn't it?---Would you like me to read it?
PN776
Well, that is what the warning was for. To modify his behaviour, was it not?---This was a formal warning:
PN777
Your pay will be docked in future. Your employment can be terminated - - -
PN778
Well, Mr Knight, it is a yes or no. What the warning to modify his behaviour?---I guess there was a series of things in there, yes. That was one of them.
PN779
Well, was it to modify his behaviour?---I can read it for you. I think it says:
PN780
You will become an active - a supportive team member. As expected, you will complete full shifts, not leaving - - -
PN781
So, the warning wasn't to get him to modify his behaviour then?---Well, I guess all of those things are related to modified behaviour.
PN782
Well, it is a yes or no answer. Was the warning there to modify his behaviour?---Yeah, as specified in that letter.
PN783
All right. And what was specified was to reduce the amount of hours he was having off. Correct?---
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN784
Expectations: 9 day fortnight at a 36 hour week roster. Every Friday, Kim and John to meet to review his performance - - -
PN785
And that took place?---
PN786
- - - for a period of 8 weeks then review once a month and then Kim must supply certificates for accompanying his wife. If Kim is not going to turn up for work or leave early for any reason, he must contact John or his co-ordinator to notify the absence. As expected, that Kim will complete full shifts, not leaving early without coordinator approval. He will be increasing his work output and become a supportive team member.
PN787
All right. Now, prior to that warning, he had an excessive amount of time off. No-one is arguing that. What I am asking you, in answer to your question or answer to the question you gave in evidence-in-chief, since 31 July 2001, with the exception of 25 January, and I will deal with that in a second, what other time off has Mr Young had without authorisation?---I would have to go back to his records and look for that. But I guess I didn't need that information in making this decision. There was an 18 month time frame from the time of a very clear warning. There were clearly issues here where - no, we had basically worked hard to get the message through. The message hadn't sunk in. That is the end of it for me.
PN788
So, the answer to the question is since July 2001, apart from 25 January, there is no excessive amount of time off that he owes Alcoa?---I am not aware of that.
PN789
Or you didn't bother to look?---It wasn't for me a significant part of the factor. There was some - I guess my decision was based on the behaviour around - no, the activities of the 3rd and the 4th and a previous warning.
PN790
So, in answer to the question of how many times has he been AWOL, I guess that is two?---That is two?
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN791
Yes. 3rd and 4th?---What, since 1 July period?
PN792
Yes?---Again that is - I don't have the information to know how complete that is.
PN793
Well, you made the decision to terminate him. On what basis did you make that decision?---Well, I will say it again. I made it based on the decision - right? That here we had a very experienced employee, working in a workplace where we encourage high levels of freedom but consistent with that, high levels of accountability. Kim got off the rails. We sat down and we addressed that. We worked very hard to get a commitment to make sure that we were going to have an effective long term working arrangement. Within 18 months, Kim had breached those guidelines. To me, end of story.
PN794
So, one breach was enough. One AWOL in 18 months was enough for you?---And the dishonesty that went with that.
PN795
The dishonesty that went with that. When he rang in on the 4th to say that he was home looking after his wife, just because he didn't - - - ?---Yeah, and failure to say that I am not heading off to a trot meeting. I mean, you just - you are dealing with a situation here where somebody has already said, your job is jeopardy. A highly valued job. You don't - right? You don't provide half the truth.
PN796
But normally it would be expected that under your clear but broad guidelines that if I needed to go to the trots this afternoon, my first obligation would be to see what my work commitments were this morning. That is right, isn't it? See what work I had on for the day?---Yeah. And what we say to people is that your commitments at work come first. All right?
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN797
Well, what I am asking you is wouldn't it be expected, if I wanted to do the trots this afternoon, the first thing I should do is come into work today and see what work is required of me today to see if I could have the time off?---Yeah, I guess that is a bit broader than that. It is also an issue of how far and to what degree that is having impact on the rest of the team. And if this is a permanent arrangement where the rest of the team are really getting a bit dejected by the fact that they have got to key part of their team who is regularly absent, authorised or unauthorised, that to me would not be acceptable. So - - -
PN798
But that is not the case here, is it?---I think it is. I think it is certainly a comment that has been - - -
PN799
Well, the rest of his team will be giving evidence, Mr Knight, and their evidence will be that that is not the case?---Yeah. Well, I guess the ones that have spoken to me have actually said that - - -
PN800
Well, who is that?---Well, I have spoken to people within the crew and they have spoken to me in confidence.
PN801
Who is it?---I guess - - -
PN802
Who have you spoken to that has expressed that to you in Mr Young's work team?---I guess, as I said, those people have made those comments to me in confidence. I - - -
PN803
Well, you made the comment under oath. Who are they?
PN804
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, he has said that they were made to him in confidence.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN805
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, whether it is made in confidence or not, he is under oath. The question is put. We are entitled to go behind it. He is making a statement. I am entitled to investigate his statement and investigate the veracity of the statement. Not simply, it has been told in confidence and I am not going to tell you the answer.
PN806
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will hear your objection.
PN807
MR HEELAN: With the greatest of respect, your Honour, I mean, one of the problems in these proceedings arises from the fact of us going first, which he insisted on.
PN808
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, hang on a minute.
PN809
MR HEELAN: And we wouldn't - - -
PN810
MR LLEWELLYN: If your company had the balls to write a letter to the Commission, you would have been going first anyway.
PN811
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: One at a time. Let me hear the objection and then I will hear from you. And you can respond.
PN812
MR HEELAN: And it seems to me that the union's approach to this matter is causing an unnecessary delay to it. I mean, our evidence is our evidence. He can bring his own. But, I mean, a lot of the questions put to Mr Knight about what Mr Dobinson - which should have appropriately been put to Mr Dobinson, and about the union's evidence, simply wouldn't arise if the usual approach had been taken. But Mr Llewellyn objected to that in strong terms and that is why we agreed to go first. May it please the Commission.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN813
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Llewellyn?
PN814
MR LLEWELLYN: I objected on the basis it was his application. The company made the application. They are the applicant. The applicant proceeds first. Well, Mr Heelan, you wanted me to reply. I will respond.
PN815
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, let me hear him out, Mr Heelan, and you will get another opportunity to respond.
PN816
MR LLEWELLYN: The expression has always been, in Alcoa's view, the actions of Mr Young were gross - not incompetence. Gross misconduct. Which verified summary dismissal. And what I said to my friend, in those cases where most of this information is in the knowledge of the company, the practice in this jurisdiction is that they would go first in any event. But the company was the applicant. Whether Mr Heelan likes it not. Most occasions companies force the union to be the applicant by taking action to either terminate, stand down, or unfairly treat employees, which forces the union into a situation of defending an argument that they don't know what the evidence is. If he is uncomfortable in the situation, then he shouldn't have made the application. He should have put up with what came from it.
PN817
MR HEELAN: With the greatest respect, your Honour, that submission misses the point completely, that the union has an application that is listed today as well. May it please the Commission.
PN818
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Llewellyn - - -
PN819
MR LLEWELLYN: And we were only forced into that situation because you wouldn't pursue your own application.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN820
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Llewellyn, address the Bench, please. Mr Llewellyn, I just don't know where all this is heading. I mean, you say you are going to call evidence from team members who are going to support Mr Young. What difference does it make if Mr Knight has heard from somebody else something different? I mean, it carries no weight if he is not prepared to identify who it is that told him - - -
PN821
MR LLEWELLYN: Well, at the moment, I don't know who it is he says that he has heard it from.
PN822
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it doesn't matter who it was because - - -
PN823
MR LLEWELLYN: It may be one of the people we are calling.
PN824
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I won't be taking any notice of it unless there is some identification put the names.
PN825
MR LLEWELLYN: I guess, in my view, it carries weight to witness credibility. I mean, if he wants to allege that one of these employees said it and the employee is prepared to get in the witness box and say he didn't, it does affect the credibility of everything Mr Knight says, in my view.
PN826
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well - - -
PN827
MR LLEWELLYN: It allows us to make that submission. If he doesn't want to identify the person, then obviously it carries no weight and no-one said to him, apart from the information of the work crew.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN828
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that is right. If he doesn't identify the person, it is hearsay, and I don't want to know about it.
PN829
MR LLEWELLYN: Okay, fine. I will treat it as that.
PN830
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is worse than hearsay. It is unidentified hearsay in the sense that I don't know who said it.
PN831
MR LLEWELLYN: Now, Mr Knight, in terms of - and I will just deal with this quickly. In terms of the salary packages that are offered to Alcoa, they are commensurate within the mining industry, are they not?---Yes, you probably know that better than me. Commensurate? Can you be a little clearer. What is the question?
PN832
Well, I mean, I concede with you - I mean, in evidence-in-chief, you said in terms of the area you work which is, for want of a better description, the south-west corner - - - ?---Yes.
PN833
- - - or mid south-west corner?---Yes.
PN834
Depending on how you describe it, I suppose?---Yes.
PN835
I concede the salaries for that area for work around that area are good salaries. Probably in excess of what most people earn?---They are - the mining industry certainly is a well paid sector. The salaries that we pay probably won't match some of the premiums in the north-west or some of the remote locations. But let me say, traditional work in the area would attract probably half what we pay our people.
PN836
One of the issues for Alcoa is bench marking between yourselves and other people in the same sort of industry?---Yes, we do that.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN837
And that includes both salaries and superannuation, those types of things?---Yes, we do that.
PN838
So, in terms of your salaries at Alcoa, they are commensurate or similar to the mining industry?---Yeah, they are probably - we actually have a salary policy which targets to pay at the 75th percentile.
PN839
75th percentile?---Right? Of the comparable industries.
PN840
Okay?---So - and, again, that is a fairly complicated process that is undertaken annually.
PN841
Yes, I know that. All right. In terms of your refinery, are you telling me that it is not a common practice at all for employees to ring in to CAs or work mates to inform them that they are not going to be at work and not contact the co-ordinator?---I think there was lots and lots in there. It - I think it is the exception, rather than the rule. If you told me that it occasionally happened, that probably wouldn't surprise me. But I would be saying, it is not the common practice and the common practice is to notify the - no, the immediate supervisor. I guess I would go beyond that. That if an employee had, I guess, got off the rails to the extent that Kim had done, we would go further to make sure there were not only co-ordinator contacts available but the next person he should try.
PN842
Well, Mr Young will give evidence that the only number he had was the 8169 number?---Right.
PN843
Which was his co-ordinator's number?---Yes.
PN844
Who wasn't there?---Yeah. And I am sure there will be other evidence provided that says there was lots of opportunity - it is not a massive workplace where you don't know where to go and find somebody else.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN845
If I put to you in areas of the refineries, it is also common practice for employees to authorise time off for other employees?---That is - - -
PN846
Wages employees, I am talking about?---That might be their view but it is certainly not the formal approval process.
PN847
But it happens?---Well, they don't authorise it. They may be part of a notification chain that has been pre-established, pre-organised, well agreed as part of the practice in that particular working area. But they are not - I mean, their job doesn't, I guess, cover the requirement to authorise that leave.
PN848
I didn't necessarily say it did?---Okay.
PN849
What I said is that they do do it?---Where that happens, I think you need to understand it could very well be part of a clearly defined, published, agreed way of communicating in an effective way so that the line management have got the right information at the right time. Now, if that meant that the situation that was pre-discussed with that crew and pre-arranged was, look, if you can't get me, ring the CA and the CA will contact me or I am going to contact them every hour to get any update of information, that to me, that is an acceptable working arrangement. But it is - - -
PN850
Well, these aren't just CAs. I mean, part of the push for costs in Alcoa - and I mean, the expression I keep getting told in my position is the skinny crew?---Yes, yes.
PN851
Right? Where you cut down to the bare minimum manning?---Now, what we have done, if I could explain that. Now you have raised the question, you have given me a great opportunity. Is - - -
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN852
This isn't for other matters. But, I mean, go on anyway?---It - the business is such that alumina refineries are always faced with - I don't know - some sort of process hiccough and I know from time - over the years we have got to the point where we have minimised those. Traditionally, when we set the plan up, we worked out that we need one, two, three, four people to run it if things are going smoothly. And if something went wrong, then you might need eight people. And what I have said - and we have said across WA is, well, we are not going to have eight people there just in case. Let's have those extra four people working some far more acceptable day light hours so they can actually be putting time and effort into making the equipment reliable instead of sitting around like firemen waiting for things to go wrong in the middle of the night. And to me, there is good business and there is good social reasons for making those changes. So, yes, we do have what is called a skinny shift in place. If something goes wrong, it is going to take longer to fix. I accept that. But we are putting time and effort - those people don't have a full time co-ordinator assigned to them 24 hours a day. There is a staff person on site that is available but each of those teams have defined rules about what needs to happen in the process of, I guess, unexpected absenteeism. Any planned absences, such as a short term event to go to a doctor's appointment with a family member or to attend a school function where one of your children was getting an award, we would expect they are pre-notified and organised and the co-ordinator is actively part of those. If it is an unexpected absence, right, such as an illness or an urgent situation, then the notification chains are established and clear to everybody.
PN853
Mr Knight, part of that cutting back in numbers also includes the cutting back in the - - - ?---No change in numbers overall, Mr Llewellyn.
PN854
Well, there has been a cutting back over a period of time in the numbers of supervision?---At Wagerup, in actual fact, the numbers of supervision are effectively the same. We have actually got them - - -
PN855
Doing other things?---We have actually got them, I guess, now working more of the daylight hours than a lot of the shift work.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN856
So, you have gone more and more to this self-autonomous work group?---Wagerup, I guess, probably less so than other locations has needed to change. It started off with a very autonomous situation.
PN857
It started off with that view but it has gone more and more to that over a period of time?---Probably the most significant change has been in the last 6 months since Kim has been off work.
PN858
Well, I mean in terms of Mr Young's work group at that time, they were working off a plan that had been done by Mr Quinzi, to take them through the period of their leave?---All right.
PN859
So they have their planned work load? They simply did that and then did whatever else they were called to do? So they were self-managed over that period of time?---Like most of the crews. I mean, the expectation is that they, they look at the planned work. If the planned work is done, they go and tell what else is around the place that needs to be done. There is a - there is an enormous amount of work that - that is, that is there that is not included as part of the plans. Housekeeping, looking at reorganising the workplace trying to make it more visual, all those sorts of things, are actually referred to in this discussion with Kim, as things that we would expect that he would get involved in.
PN860
But a part of that self-autonomy in that work group allowed for things like where employees, on a Sunday, for example, would look to see what work they had available. If they weren't required, or they could be done without, then they would take the day off and go and play football and make - see the coordinator on Monday, or Tuesday and make up the hours?---Right, not my understanding.
PN861
Okay, I have nothing further.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN862
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Mr Llewellyn. Any re-examination?
PN863
PN864
MR HEELAN: What is a CA?---A CA is a controller and attendant. It is a - it is the central point of contact for - for an operating team. There are one, two, three, four, five - five on site at any one time, one in the power station and one each of the operating centres 1, 2, 3 and 4. Up until, I guess, some recent changes, they were the - the senior operator on the crew. There is now a more senior position being proposed as part of a new structure.
PN865
A fair bit was said in cross-examination about the final warning and how long it would last for. What would be your attitude if there had only been one incident since the final written warning, and that one incident was the incident on 4 February and it did not involve the horse racing? So if Mr Young had taken a day off without the appropriate notification, but to look after his wife and not to then go racing during work hours, what would your attitude to that be, Mr Knight?---I would be disappointed and I would be - I would be, I guess, pretty keen to make sure somebody was talking to Kim and ensuring that - that the commitments that we put in place and that he had been party to, were still solid and would need to understand why they hadn't been followed. I guess I would respond, based on the information I got to those questions.
PN866
Would it be your intention to sack him?---No, not without getting answers to those questions. And I guess if - if I believed that the answers to those questions had - were ones that I could relate to, were valid, were fair, then it certainly wouldn't come to that outcome.
PN867
And were you aware that on 6 February there was a meeting between Mr Maughan and Ms Wiltshire with Mr Young in relation to his absences? Are you aware that he did not volunteer the horse racing in relation to the 4 February absence?---No, I think that information was provided to me.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT RXN MR HEELAN
PN868
And he only acknowledged it once he was confronted?---I understand that is the case. I guess, as I have said before, the issue for me was - was not the isolated absence. It was the - it was the, I guess, the deceit associated with the whole process. It was, I think, in breach of the previous trust that we tried to develop.
PN869
Mr Knight, there was some discussion about two for one shifts and being outside of the rules - - -?---Yes.
PN870
- - - and you said you would deal with it. By that did you mean that you would deal with the supervisor, or you would deal with the employee concerned?---It is a supervisory issue. But, I thought I explained the two for one. There are some processes around that, but anyway, if there are others.
PN871
In relation to working mid-week, where employees receive weekend overtime penalties, am I right in assuming that that is in circumstances where the employee would have been rostered to work on the weekend, but the company changes those arrangements to do some more urgent week mid-week?---That is what I explained.
PN872
And the procedure adopted is simply not to penalise the employee?---Absolutely. I mean, it is fairly typical in our milling crew. Our milling crew have got a roster that is struck that says about two nights in every 6 weeks, they will work night shift. Now, when we have got a major maintenance on a mill and an overhaul, then we need people to be working on those night-shifts. When the work can be undertaken in a 10 hour shift, we offer the opportunity for the employees, instead of working nights, to work days. Most quite logically, you know, choose to take up that offer.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT RXN MR HEELAN
PN873
There was also quite some discussion in relation to employees organising time off by notifying their work mates. What is your expectation? Is it your expectation that employees would simply let a work mate know, or that the employee would let their supervisor, or coordinator know?---No, the expectation is that the supervisor needs to be informed of those absences and needs to authorise them. Now, look I think I have made it pretty clear. This is a - this is a fairly autonomous workplace and work mates talk to each other about: when is a good time for me to have leave? Their leave is from an annual leave point of view, is planned. Somebody might have this month off and somebody might have the next month. So people talking to each other about leave is common and is encouraged, but it is not - it is certainly not within the domain of authorising that. All right? It is - it is to plan absences. If somebody wanted a particular day off for a short-term family circumstance, part of what I would expect as a supervisor, they would check that the crew was actually going to have enough people to do the work that was going to be required in that day. And then come and talk to me and say: look, I have checked with the crew. Nobody else is away. I have got this, this appointment to take my wife to see a specialist. I would like to be there. Can I have that off as a - and if it is less than half a shift - I mean, there is clearly documented procedures for, for allowing that time to be - to be given to the individual as authorised leave with pay, under the work and family policy. But, it comes back to the fact that you have got to - you have got to actually engage with the management of the place to make sure that it works effectively.
PN874
And in relation to special family leave, if an employee takes a shift off to look after a family member and that family member suddenly gets better, around halfway through the shift, or alternative arrangements are able to be made - - - ?---Yes, yes.
PN875
- - - do you expect that employee to take the rest of the day off as a free kick, or to get back to work?---I expect - I mean again, I expect them to come to work. If they had a significant amount of travel to undertake and by the time they travelled, they got to work for 10 minutes and turned around and had to go home again, I would probably suggest that sounds pretty wasteful. In that circumstance I would make it pretty clear that they call me, because the last thing that anybody wants is to be seen away from the workplace without having appropriate authorisation. And I think most of our people understand their responsibilities and understand that having unauthorised absence is not the sort of stuff that you want on your record.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT RXN MR HEELAN
PN876
Now you said "call me", do I take it that you expect them to call you as Refinery Manager, or call their coordinator?---No, no, you call the immediate supervisor, if I was the immediate supervisor.
PN877
If someone claims family, or special, sorry - special family leave, what do you expect them to be doing during that - the period of that leave?---I would expect them to be, I guess, in close attendance to the family member that needed that support.
PN878
Can I ask you to just have a very quick look at exhibit A4, which is the letter of termination, Mr Knight?---Yes.
PN879
Quite a bit was put to you in relation to naming other unauthorised absences. Could I just ask you to turn to paragraph 8(c) on page 2?---Okay, do you want me to read it?
PN880
I just was just going to ask you, are they - are they circumstances you would regard as other examples of unauthorised absences?---Let me read it:
PN881
An investigation into your absenteeism record since a final warning in July, demonstrated that commitments you have made to participate at trotting meetings which we understand would remain some days early comes to at least 10 occasions with paid sick leave and/or planned special family leave had been undertaken by you and in circumstances where your participation at, or travel to such trotting meetings involve, at the very least, some time which otherwise would have been -
PN882
Yes, so your question sorry?
PN883
Are they examples of unacceptable - sorry, unauthorised absences?---Yes, they would appear to be, yes.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT RXN MR HEELAN
PN884
In relation to the final written warning, was that to modify behaviour or was that to modify behaviour and set the rules for the future?---It is - it is to modify behaviour, which is what you are trying to do. But also make consequences very clear. Right? And the consequences are the rules for the future.
PN885
In relation to the mining industry, do they work a 36-hour week, do you know?---The alumina industry does. I guess I am not an expert in this field, I think other sectors work - I think the oil industry works a 35, some work 38. But, I guess, some sectors of the mining industry work substantially more than that.
PN886
And you say you - Alcoa's aim is to be at the 75th percentile of comparable industries. Does that include the mining industry?---Well, it includes industries that are part of the benchmarking we do, which doesn't include those that are in remote locations, as I understand the - the Canberra conference process it will include similar industries to the ones - and probably, you know, may include some mineral sands, or something like that, that are adjacent to our operation. Again, I haven't participated in that process. I would assume it looks at comparable industries to us.
PN887
And in terms - from the period of the final written warning, did the established procedure and practice for Kim Young, permit him to simply tell a fellow employee about an absence, rather than his coordinator or supervisor?---Absolutely not.
PN888
And with the advent of skinny shifts, is there still a requirement for prior approval of leave?---Prior approval of planned leave, absolutely, right? And - but if there happens to be an emergency, right, that is an unplanned absence, then there are some clearly laid down procedures about how that is to be notified.
PN889
Thank you Mr Knight.
**** WILLIAM KNIGHT RXN MR HEELAN
PN890
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you for your evidence, Mr Knight. You are excused.
PN891
MR KNIGHT: Thank you, your Honour.
PN892
MR LLEWELLYN: I now recall Mr Maughan, sir.
PN893
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN894
MR KNIGHT: Can I keep those, or would you like those back?
PN895
PN896
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: My Associate will call him. Could I just ask while we are waiting, how many witnesses you have?
PN897
MR LLEWELLYN: Seven, eight counting Mr Young.
PN898
PN899
MR LLEWELLYN: Mr Maughan, in terms of the warning letter of 31 July 2001, other than the day of 25 January, can you tell me what unaccountable hours Mr Young had?---They are the only unaccountable hours that I have got personal knowledge of.
PN900
So to your knowledge he had none others?---They are the only ones that I have got personal knowledge of.
PN901
All right. I wonder if I can have the witness shown exhibit A4, thanks. Mr Maughan can I just ask you to look at paragraph 3 of that letter?---Yes.
PN902
Now, as I understand it, you carried out the investigation in relation to this incident?---Certainly I began the investigation and worked with other people, yes.
PN903
Right, in terms of what that paragraph says, is that correct?---The first sentence is correct.
PN904
So:
PN905
Following the final warning, your supervisor, John Dobinson, did not approve any flexibility for you attending trotting meetings during work time.
PN906
?---I - yes I asked him that, and that is my understanding, yes, that is correct.
PN907
So your understanding is that Mr Young wasn't allowed to leave work to go and attend trots and make up the hours at any time?---Yes, I guess that was my understanding, yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN908
That is what Mr Dobinson said to you?---He - I asked him if he had provided any flexibility to Mr Young and he indicated that he hadn't.
PN909
All right?---Apart from the normal - with respect to there were other issues which Mr Young was dealing with and certainly Mr Dobinson was working through flexible work arrangements with Mr Young with that. His - - -
PN910
I'm - no, let us just stick with trotting for the moment?---Yes, with trotting. It is my understanding with the trotting.
PN911
All right, would it surprise you, then, that Mr Young used to regularly take off Monday afternoon and Friday afternoon to attend trotting meetings and make up the time?---I didn't have any knowledge of that.
PN912
So it would surprise you then?---Yes.
PN913
Given that statement, that was - that is the sort of flexibility an employee gets to attend trotting, isn't it? Making up hours, attending it during work time then making up the hours some other time?---I don't believe that it is flexibility that people get on a regular basis. Something like that. People - - -
PN914
All right, well, if I told you that Mr Young got that on a regular basis, would that surprise you?---At this point in time, yes.
PN915
Would it surprise you that Mr Young - sorry, have you got the warning letter there? I am just wondering if I can have the witness shown exhibit A2? All right, you got that there?---Yes
PN916
You see at the bottom of the logged events, on the 26th of the 7th 2001 the final written warning was being given to Kim over his absenteeism?---Yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN917
Would it then surprise you to find out that Mr Young drove at the Pinjarra trots - oh sorry, the Gloucester Park trots the next day?---Well, I don't know the circumstances if he drove that night.
PN918
He drove at Pinjarra on the Monday afternoon the 30th?---I have no knowledge of that.
PN919
He drove at Pinjarra on the 13th?---Of what month?
PN920
8th, 13 August 2001?---Again, I basically work on the basis that he had prior approval to do that.
PN921
Well, hang on, this letter says he got no approval. He didn't have any flexibility to attend trotting meetings. That is what it says, doesn't it?---I am probably not the right person to ask that.
PN922
Well, you told me Mr Dobinson said that to you. You are now saying that he didn't say it to you?---No, I am not saying that.
PN923
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, he doesn't know. He says Mr Dobinson said that to him, but he doesn't know what is in Mr Dobinson's mind, or what Mr Dobinson did know, or didn't know.
PN924
MR LLEWELLYN: But you then went and subsequently checked to find out through the Trotting Association, what Mr Young had been doing around the end of February - or around end of January/February, didn't you?---Of this year?
PN925
Yes?---Yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN926
You didn't think to check back to see if the arrangements had been ongoing for some time?---I checked back to the extent that when the occasions that Mr Young had submitted a sick notice for the - for his absences, that there may have been some correlation between that and the attendance at trot meetings. And I went back to just try and ascertain whether in fact there was a pattern there.
PN927
So you are the author of the document that purports to set out all the trot meetings and everything that Mr Young attended, are you? All his sick leave and what have you?---I am not sure which document - I have certainly done some checks. I am not sure which document you are referring to.
PN928
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which document is that Mr Llewellyn, I don't appear to have that document that you are referring to. I don't - - -
PN929
MR LLEWELLYN: I am just trying to find where I put it. Just have the witness shown that document, thanks. Just find out if he is the author. If he is not I won't bother tendering it.
PN930
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, fair enough.
PN931
MR LLEWELLYN: What is yours? I am just worried about the front page at the moment. I know you are not the author of the back page. Are you the author of that document?---No, I am not.
PN932
Right, so you didn't produce that?---No, I didn't.
PN933
Are they the records that you say that you checked, though?---Yes they are.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN934
So these are the race meetings that you checked in relation to the sick leave certificates?---There was certainly at least some of them. Basically I wrote a report to indicate that there was some beginnings of correlation between the two events and asked - put it back through Human Resources to see if they wished to check that further.
PN935
So you checked on the 27th and 28th of the 9th that Mr Young actually raced the day before in Harvey?---Yes, I basically would have picked that up, yes.
PN936
So he wasn't sick for that, he just raced the day before and was sick the day after. Is that the pattern you are concerned about?---As I said, I basically looked at the incidents of that and indicated that there may be a pattern here and yes.
PN937
All right. Well, 3rd and 4th he was sick. He didn't race anywhere?---Yes.
PN938
9th of the 1st he had family leave, didn't race anywhere. 24th and 25th he was off certified unfit for work. Raced at Race 8 at Gloucester Park. Do you know what time that was?---Off hand, no I don't.
PN939
So you didn't look at that?---I probably did look at that, but I don't know what time it was.
PN940
9.35 at night?---Okay.
PN941
So that is well outside of work time, isn't it?---I would imagine so, yes.
PN942
Right. Do you know if he was certified unfit to race at the trots?---The doctor's notes rarely go to that sort of detail.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN943
No, it just said he was unfit for normal duty at work, wasn't it?---Yes. Sorry, I - I imagine it did, I - - -
PN944
Well, didn't you go and check the sick leave notes?---The actual detail of the doctor - the doctor's note, she did say unfit for work and it is a ticker box.
PN945
All right. On 22nd of the 2nd he took family leave - race 6 at Gloucester Park. Do you know what time that was?---No I don't.
PN946
8.35 at night.?---Okay.
PN947
That is well outside any time he was supposed to be at work, isn't it?---Yes it is.
PN948
And on your evidence, that would give him ample time to get his horse up to Gloucester Park too, wouldn't it?---And - and to that extent I feel that - feel a lot of this information, whilst it is indicative there may have been a pattern there with doctors' notes, etcetera, I personally don't feel as though that is a, a major significant thing with respect to what the events I saw on the 3rd and 4th, and on the - February and the 25th of the 1st.
PN949
So, your - in your view, this so-called history of where you thought there was a pattern, you are happy to concede there was no pattern?---I think there was a pattern of - to be suspicious about the way that Mr Young has gone about his business with different doctors for each of the doctors' notes and the coincidence of possible coming home late. But the evidence to actually go to specifically talk to Mr Young about that, is somewhat tenuous and I - it is - there is a pattern there, but we haven't pursued that specifically.
PN950
So, Mr Maughan, if I am sick for work, your requirement is that Mr Young goes and gets a doctor's note, isn't it?---Yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN951
And he has got to do that by turning up to a doctor's surgery on the day?---Yes.
PN952
That is correct?---Yes.
PN953
And he gets into whatever doctor's surgery he can get into?---Yes.
PN954
And that is not always the same doctor, is it. As a matter of fact it is very rare that - - -?---It hasn't been the same doctor here, I know.
PN955
It is very rare that it is, isn't it? You can just walk into a medical centre and see the same doctor regularly?---If I was to answer that truthfully, I do see the same doctor.
PN956
So you make appointments?---Sorry?
PN957
You make appointments?---I would make an appointment, yes. And - but even ringing up during the day - - -
PN958
So if I woke up crook today and walked into a medical centre, it is unusual that I would get to see the same doctor every time?---That is not my experience, so I can't comment on that.
PN959
Right, okay. But the doctors that Mr Young has seen are the doctors in the area that he goes - that he can attend, isn't it - the medical centres in the area down Pinjarra?---Yes, I believe so.
PN960
Right and you have got no reason to question any of those doctors' certificates?---No, we don't question the doctors.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN961
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the population of Pinjarra?
PN962
MR LLEWELLYN: I don't know, but I will find out for you if you like. I wouldn't have a clue, but it has got a refinery employing 600 odd people, just in our classification - or 560.
PN963
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN964
MR LLEWELLYN: Mr Young tells me there are two doctors' surgeries in Pinjarra, one next to the other. So if you can't get into one, you just go to the other.
PN965
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN966
MR LLEWELLYN: I won't bother tendering that at this stage since it doesn't appear to be this applicant's document - or this person's document.
PN967
So in terms of the unaccountable hours it is simply the 25th is the only day you were concerned about?---The Monday 3 February is unaccounted.
PN968
Well, it is a bit hard to account for that. He hasn't been allowed back at work since then?---He has been back at work on the Wednesday after that and he indicated that he attempted to contact someone on the Wednesday to let us know, but Mr Eastick and - was there in the afternoon and I was there all day that Wednesday. This was 5 February.
PN969
What Mr Young says is normally what would happen is, he would see his coordinator and they would simply arrange for a time to re-roster the day, wasn't it. That is his normal practice?---I am not aware of that normal practice.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN970
So in terms of your evidence-in-chief, you made a comment that Mr Dobinson had been managing Mr Young closely. Can you tell me what you knew about that?---Based after - after 31 July there was some commitments between Mr Young and Mr Dobinson and supported by Ms Wiltshire, that they would meet regularly, I think on a weekly - for a period of 8 weeks, and then monthly beyond that. And I don't know when that - exactly when that finished, but they did pursue that. And John, Mr Dobinson had those conditions in that written warning that basically Mr Young was not to remove himself from site under any circumstances without Mr Young, Mr Dobinson being pre-informed of any circumstance which may be arising. And so, to that extent, the understanding which Mr Dobinson had with Mr Young, as discussed with myself, was that Mr Young would not use go-betweens with respect to his work team to provide that information. He would make every effort to contact Mr Dobinson to let him know. Beyond that, outside of Mr Dobinson's availability being a problem, then the - the coordinator group at Wagerup would be the next port of call. Mr Dobinson also indicated that we have all got mobile phones and he has a mobile phone, and there is lots of opportunity to make sure that we are informed of what his movements are going to be.
PN971
So Mr Dobinson said that clearly that was told to Mr Young?---Yes.
PN972
And Mr Young was provided with all those phone numbers?---Those phone numbers are available on our computer system. He - I can't say that Mr Young has Mr Dobinson's phone number - mobile phone number committed to memory, but they were - - -
PN973
What about the rest of the coordinating group? Has he got them?---Again, they were available via our security and our intranet PC based system and - - -
PN974
Well, he is at home. Has he got the numbers?---Again, they are available via - via our security which is a well known number. And it has been the same - - -
PN975
So he should ring security first, then ring - - -?---They would give you that number, yes they would. I use that facility.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN976
Right. So, there would be no excuse for any of your employees taking time off without contacting a coordinator then?---I don't believe so, no.
PN977
So, are you aware of the arrangements in Mr Dobinson's crew about working during the week and claiming weekend penalties for the electricians?---I understand that that has happened when Mr Dobinson has requested them to work on those week days and they have not worked the weekend day as re-roster for that. Yes I am aware of that.
PN978
All right, are you aware of the practice of working one day and getting two days off in repayment for it?---I am definitely not aware of that.
PN979
It doesn't occur in the maintenance department at all?---My understanding, in a different department that occurred up until some time around about 2 years ago and the appropriate actions were taken with respect to that.
PN980
So, it doesn't still occur?---My - I don't believe it occurs at all.
PN981
All right. Most of these decisions are left between the front line coordinator and the employee, aren't they?---Yes.
PN982
Including the arrangement for time off, re-rostering, all that sort of thing?---Yes, the coordinators are - they are accountable for the - the business in the area and managing the people on a day to day basis, hour by hour basis.
PN983
All right. In terms of Mr Young's area at that time in his op' area which is 35QEI, they were working off a work plan given to them by Mr Quinzi prior to him going on leave. That is correct, isn't it?---That is my understanding, yes.
PN984
And they were expected to self-manage that as they worked through it. That is correct, isn't it?---That would certainly be within their capabilities, yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN985
All right. So, it was up to them to determine what work needed to be done and whether they were needed - if we needed extra people, or if indeed it was to the stage where I wasn't needed this afternoon, but I could come in and work back tomorrow to make up the time?---If the work crew got to the point of wanting to make that decision, then they may determine that, but then they would need to seek approval from the coordinator before they took action to do that.
PN986
Right. And there is no occasion where you would say that occurs without seeking permission first?---Definitely not to my knowledge.
PN987
Right, but there are a number of things that go on without your knowledge, aren't there?---If people are doing that then I guess they are putting their employment at risk.
PN988
Well, Mr Maughan, there are a number of things that go on between coordinators and employees directly, that you have no knowledge about. That is correct, isn't it?---The direct - direct action between?
PN989
Yes?---Yes. That is left up to them to manage, but they have - - -
PN990
So re-rostering, those types of things, what I get time off for, is all left directly between the front line coordinator and the employee?---What they get time off for?
PN991
Yes. If I want time off, the person I - you say I ask - - -?---I think I mentioned to - - -
PN992
- - - as long as the coordinator says yes, I can have it?---Basically, yes. As I have said this morning, the actual reasons for taking time off, many - most of the occasions are somewhat - not of the company's business as in if it was a personal reason or whatever. But, the process step of making sure that the business needs can be met while that is occurring, is the coordinator's responsibility to make that decision.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN XXN MR LLEWELLYN
PN993
Right, and in a work team that has already got all its work allocated and is self-managing, it is up to that team to determine whether they can do that or not?---Yes, that would probably be a fair assessment.
PN994
I have nothing further thanks.
PN995
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Mr Llewellyn. Any re-examination?
PN996
PN997
MR HEELAN: In relation to the Alcoa Hero program, Mr Maughan, have there been thousands of recipients?---I am not specifically aware of the exact number. I do - I did attend a function mid-last - sorry, September or October last year, where something in the order of 30 or 40 employees at the Wagerup Refinery were recognised for - as being recipients of either the Bravo which was the smaller award, or the Action Award which was a larger grant. And we were all recognised - as Mr Young was there and he was recognised there that day as well.
PN998
And is - - -?---But, beyond the other refineries, I am not sure.
PN999
Is this sort of presentation for a Bravo, or a grant?---That was the Action grant.
PN1000
Did you receive yours on the same day?---Yes I did.
PN1001
Under the new EBS system, is there still a requirement for leave to be approved by supervision?---Absolutely. The process of the - the employee making sure that the direct supervision are aware that they are applying for that, the onus still falls with them.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN RXN MR HEELAN
PN1002
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, did you say EBS system?
PN1003
MR HEELAN: EBS is the way I heard it.
PN1004
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is that?
PN1005
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is a electronic business system - it is - enterprise system I think is its proper, proper term for acronym, but it is a globalisation type approach to a lot of different things in the organisation.
PN1006
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1007
MR HEELAN: Is it an acceptable practice to re-roster with yourself?---The - if it is re-rostering yourself - I am trying to get that clear as to what people are meaning by that. If it is to request that they have a different day - work a different day on their normal published roster, that has occurred. That does occur and again it is at the - I guess, you know, discussion and approval of the coordinator that that would still make good sense to do for the workload during that week. For argument - basically the roster is a 4 days one week, 3 days another - moves through a 7 day fortnight and if the work - workload being affected by others is such that if a person is rostered off on a Thursday, but we would like a person there on that Thursday, then that would make sense to do that.
PN1008
So in terms of the last few days that Mr Young was at work, is it the case that he was AWOL on Monday 3 February for part of the shift?---Yes.
PN1009
He was absent for all of the shift on Tuesday 4 February for special family leave reasons?---Yes.
**** MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN RXN MR HEELAN
PN1010
Was he at work on Wednesday 5 February?---I didn't see him but I believe he was.
PN1011
And was he at work on Thursday, 6 February?---Yes, he was. I saw him.
PN1012
One final question, Mr Maughan. Sorry, second to last question. In relation to the proposition put to you of working one day and getting two off, is that related to 12-hour shifts versus 10.4-hour shifts or something else?---It was some arrangement which I - I'm not familiar with all the details; that was a practice to do with 12 hours versus 10.3-hour shifts. And it hasn't been - definitely hasn't been sanctioned by the company in any shape or form.
PN1013
And the final question, does it surprise you that Kim Young would be associated with the Pony Trot Club?---Does it - sorry, does it surprise me?
PN1014
Yes?---I - I was aware that he was associated with it so I guess I wasn't surprised.
PN1015
Thank you, Mr Maughan.
PN1016
PN1017
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that a convenient time or do you want to call your next witness?
PN1018
MR HEELAN: I am in your hands, sir. I am conscious of the number of witnesses.
PN1019
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I have another matter at 4.30 which is a certified agreement but we would have to finish and 20-past-4 if we are going to continue on now.
PN1020
MR HEELAN: I am completely in your hands, your Honour.
PN1021
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is your other witness a short witness?
PN1022
MR HEELAN: I would think that he would be longer than Mr Maughan; that is Mr Dobinson. I would have thought that he would be here for a while.
PN1023
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I would have thought so too. Very well. Well, we will leave him until tomorrow morning. Just excuse me. We will go off the record for a minute.
OFF THE RECORD
RESUMED [3.55pm]
PN1024
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Would it be convenient for the parties to start at 9.30 tomorrow morning?
PN1025
MR HEELAN: Certainly with us, sir.
PN1026
MR LLEWELLYN: Yes, I have got no problem.
PN1027
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. All right, well I will adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.
ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 2 JULY 2003 [3.56pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN, SWORN PN103
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR HEELAN PN103
EXHIBIT #A1 ALCOA OF AUSTRALIA LTD EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT FOR MR YOUNG. PN135
EXHIBIT #A2 MEMORANDUM TO KIM YOUNG FROM MR DOBINSON DATED 31/08/2001. PN154
EXHIBIT #A3 MEMORANDUM TO SIMONE WILTSHIRE FROM JOHN DOBINSON DATED 28/11/2002 PN191
EXHIBIT #A4 LETTER TO KIM YOUNG FROM THE REFINERY MANAGER, ALCOA, DATED 20/06/2003 PN255
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LLEWELLYN PN282
EXHIBIT #Y1 POSTER TITLED: ORDINARY PEOPLE DOING EXTRAORDINARY THINGS PN366
WITNESS WITHDREW PN544
WILLIAM KNIGHT, SWORN PN546
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR HEELAN PN546
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LLEWELLYN PN584
EXHIBIT #Y2 E-MAIL EXCHANGE BETWEEN MR BILL KNIGHT AND MR ROB ZANDER DATED 18 AND 19 FEBRUARY PN676
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN PN864
WITNESS WITHDREW PN896
MURRAY IAN MAUGHAN, RECALLED AND RE-AFFIRMED PN899
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LLEWELLYN PN899
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN PN997
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1017
AustLII:
Copyright Policy
|
Disclaimers
|
Privacy Policy
|
Feedback
URL: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/AIRCTrans/2003/2986.html