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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 6, 114-120 Castlereagh St SYDNEY NSW 2000
Tel:(02)928-6500 Fax:(02) 928-6533
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT HARRISON
C No 38903 of 1997
C No 38904 of 1997
TRANSPORT WORKERS AWARD 1998
Application under section 113 of the Act
by the Transport Workers Union of Australia
to vary the above award re inserting a new clause -
Transportation of Dangerous Goods
Allowance
TRANSPORT WORKERS (LONG DISTANCE) DRIVERS
AWARD 1996
Application under section 113 of the Act
by the Transport Workers Union of Australia
to vary the Transport Workers (Long Distance
Drivers) Award 2000 re inserting a new clause -
Transportation of Dangerous Goods Allowance
SYDNEY
10.05 AM, WEDNESDAY, 13 AUGUST 2003
Continued from 12.8.03
HEARING BY VIDEO CONFERENCE
PN959
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I received a document from you, Mr Ryan. It is a copy of the document referred to yesterday and described as the Emergency Procedure Guide. It comprises two pages. Is that the same document, Mr Ryan?
PN960
MR RYAN: That is correct, Senior Member.
PN961
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, I marked - - -
PN962
MR RYAN: I think you marked that.
PN963
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I've already marked that but I'm just trying to - maybe that was RTO1, I think.
PN964
MR RYAN: RTO1, the consensus down here seems to think.
PN965
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, the caustic soda I think I've marked RTO2 so it must be RTO1. I think that is the only additional - the only document that came in overnight that I need to identify. Mr Duffin?
PN966
MR DUFFIN: Yes. My office will be sending to your Honour a copy of one of the Adschem dyes, and we are hoping to provide that to the other members of the bar table about the same time so there will be some copying brought in today.
PN967
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, I'm just wondering, Mr Duffin, if it might be best that in relation to my copy you just leave it in the Court room there in Melbourne because otherwise it will be bundled up and sent down to Melbourne tonight anyway.
PN968
MR DUFFIN: That is fine.
PN969
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, yes.
PN970
MR DUFFIN: We seek to call Robert Brown.
PN971
PN972
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm finding it very difficult to hear, Mr Brown, and also you, Mr McCawley. Could you see what you can do about that?
PN973
MR BROWN: Is that better?
PN974
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Duffin?
PN975
MR DUFFIN: Mr Brown, would you state your full name for the purposes of the Court record?---Robert Trevor Brown.
PN976
Where are you presently employed?---..... Haulage, 48 New Street, .....
PN977
Have you made a statement in relation to this proceeding?---That I have.
PN978
Do you have a copy of that statement with you?---I have it on the seat behind me.
PN979
Have you read through it since it was made?---Yes, I have.
PN980
Is it true and correct in every particular?---Yes.
PN981
PN982
MR DUFFIN: I have no examination-in-chief, other than the statement, your Honour.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XN MR DUFFIN
PN983
PN984
MR RYAN: Thank you, your Honour. Could I ask if Mr Brown could have a copy of that in the witness-box, please?
PN985
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN986
MR RYAN: Could you tell us - you have been working for Transwest for 9 years, Mr Brown?---Yes.
PN987
Could you tell us how your job has changed over that period?---So far, the changes have been - they've been ..... I started there. Then I went interstate. Then a lot interstate, mainly carting bulk chemicals and then, with the changes in the company, it has gone from country to local, local/country and called upon to do certain jobs interstate when they came up.
PN988
The bulk chemical loads you deal with, have they changed much in that 10 year period?---Yes, mainly because the laws have changed with the new system of looking for better quality drivers so you had to do the education to bring you up to the standards that the companies as well as the Government were looking for.
PN989
The actual job that you are doing, that has not changed much though, has it?---No, no.
PN990
You ..... the bulk ..... which lasted for about 12 years?---That's it.
PN991
How did you get your licence?---The promise of a job so I had to go get a - go to TAFE and do a dangerous goods course which was a 2 day course, and it gives you all the aspects and the laws of the actual runnings of what you needed to know to do the job.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN992
That was 12 years ago?---That's it.
PN993
They explained to you what was required of you as a dangerous goods driver?---No, no. All they do is teach you the law. They don't teach you how to handle product, what the products are. They teach you the road rules, how to handle dangerous goods on the road, and what the Government expects you to know.
PN994
You have done a refresher recently?---We do refreshers every 3 years.
PN995
What do those refreshers teach you?---The refresher course goes straight back to the dangerous goods rules.
PN996
So it is all the stuff you learned 12 years ago. They just keep refreshing?---Refresher. As the Government changes the rules and regulations, that's what you learn.
PN997
Do you receive an allowance for carting dangerous goods?---You receive $2 a day, as long as we're carting dangerous goods.
PN998
$2 a day, and you receive that for a while?---Yes. We negotiated that in the EBA. Probably 4 or 5 years now I think we've been getting it through our EBAs.
PN999
In your witness statement, Mr Brown, you talk about Transwest seems to provide a lot of detailed training. Does that apply to all drivers?---It applies to every driver in our yard under our EBA. It protects the drivers and their jobs, and it helps the company when they are looking for drivers. It shows customers that we are the best prepared for what they need us to do.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1000
You have referred to a handbook that the company prepares. What is in the handbook?---The handbook is like a Bible that the drivers and the companies put together, all the outlets. They have an Emergency Procedure Guide in there, the dos and don'ts of what they expect you to do and it has a guide on dangerous goods for ..... drivers, things they need to know on how to operate their tippers. It has bits and pieces that drivers are putting to the company so that when a new driver comes on, it's like a Bible to them and it helps them out.
PN1001
When you started at Transwest, did you have to do some induction training?---Yes, I did.
PN1002
How long did that take?---You do one day induction on the Bible. Every site you go to you have to be inducted to.
PN1003
How many sites would that be?---So far, I'm currently inducted into 27 different sites.
PN1004
27 different sites in Victoria?---In Victoria.
PN1005
They are sites that you deliver to?---That's it.
PN1006
Those inductions do what?---They're just a safety induction so you know ..... and what the company is wanting to expect you to know and deal with.
PN1007
If you come onto Transwest - say, a driver from another company comes into your terminal or your yard, are they inducted before they get in there?---The company? To work for us? Yes, they'll be inducted into Transwest ..... and into the yard policies. If they've just come in for a visit, they'll be given a business pass.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1008
Is the visitors pass ..... a little bit of an induction?---It's just a card telling them where the exits area and what they need to know when they're on the site.
PN1009
Just common sense safety?---Common sense safety.
PN1010
That applies, I think you said, to all the drivers?---That's every guy from our yard.
PN1011
You then go and say that you are required to load and unload dangerous goods, know how to fight a fire, and be expected to do so in case of an emergency. Have you had any emergencies where you have had to fight a fire?---No, I've been lucky that I haven't.
PN1012
Any of your colleagues had to?---No, we've been very lucky with that. Well maintained vehicles seem to resolve that issue.
PN1013
Transwest is a good employer to work for, and then you complete a safety check of the vehicle before transport?---That's it.
PN1014
What is that?---You do a quick inspection around the vehicle, noting any damage that may have been caused by being parked in the yard overnight, check for flat tyres, oil leakages, broken ....., like roadworthy - like, if you take a vehicle out on the road, whether it's roadworthy. ..... you can see that something needs to be fixed.
PN1015
How long does that take you?---15 or 20 minutes.
PN1016
15 or 20 minutes. You said you check whether anything was broken overnight whilst it was parked. How would that happen?---Accidents happen in the yard. Drivers being careless at night. It doesn't happen all the time but it has been known to happen.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1017
During loading and unloading, you wear and maintain personal protective clothing. What sort of protective clothing would you have?---Frozen liquids. When we load frozen liquids, we have a hard hat. We have safety goggles, a face shield, that goes down to a full PVC suit which covers from the ankles to the neck to the wrist; rubber gloves which are the gloves that go to your elbows, and when handling chemicals, you may have to have .....
PN1018
What is that stuff for?---That's to protect you from ..... if you're loading it and you spill some on you, down you.
PN1019
All of that, do you have to buy that?---No, the company supplies all of that.
PN1020
The company supplies all of that, do they? The company - do you have to carry a first aid kit?---We carry a first aid kit, a torch. We carry a second set of PVCs.
PN1021
Sorry?---All the protective equipment. We carry a second set. By law, we have to. We carry it especially.
PN1022
The company provides all of that?---They supply everything.
PN1023
Have you ever been pinged by the law enforcement people for not having the right paperwork, not having the right - - -?---I've been very lucky and I haven't. With the training we do, and Transwest does an extra bit of training on it. I think everyone in our yard has been pretty lucky and followed the rules.
PN1024
So none of your colleagues have - - -?---Not in our yard.
PN1025
- - - been either?---Not in our yard. We've been .....
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1026
Have you heard around the traps of many drivers being prosecuted for not complying?---Yes, a lot of Knights travellers got done because they were not up to scratch with the codes.
PN1027
They got fined or they got prosecuted?---They got fined and prosecuted.
PN1028
Does Knights operate any more?---No, they were bought out by Coles.
PN1029
So you guys - I think you said earlier, Mr Brown, that you are paid more for carting dangerous?---We were on the same base rate as the rest of our colleagues in the yard. The only difference we get is when we cart dangerous goods, we get $2.
PN1030
$2?---$2 a day.
PN1031
A day, okay, and do you get paid the award rate of pay?---We get a little bit over the award rate because of our EBA.
PN1032
Yes?---Worked on the road for years to come to where we are.
PN1033
When you are given your paperwork - I withdraw that, your Honour. When you turn up for work in the morning, can you describe what happens?---You turn up for work in the morning. You receive the documentation, what is the plan for the drops for the day, not that the plans go the way they're supposed to but we have a planned out day for work. On the list, it will have your truck number. It will have your trailer numbers, the product you're carting, who you're carting it for, and where it's going to.
PN1034
Now, that applies to everyone who works in the yard, does it?---Everyone in the yard.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1035
Whether you are carting dangerous goods or not?---Whether we are carting dangerous goods or not, it tells you exactly what you're doing for the day.
PN1036
Okay, and if you are doing dangerous goods on that day, what happens then?---Well, if I'm doing dangerous goods, which is 90 per cent of the time that's what I do, I ....., check my trailer and make sure I've got exactly what I'll need for the day, make sure my equipment and everything is up to date, check the vehicle, anything that needs fixing, have it written down, get it seen to. If it can't be fixed straight away, then I'll make a date for it to be put in.
PN1037
But if you are not doing dangerous goods, do you do anything different?---It's exactly the same thing. You have to make sure you've got the right equipment and that to do the job.
PN1038
If you are doing dangerous goods, I imagine the Manager or the Fleet Controller would give you some paperwork?---No.
PN1039
No?---No. The paperwork is given to us by the ..... The only paperwork we receive is for ....., which is currently the contract for the work ..... where the boss will give us the actual documentation for that paperwork. It's the only extra paperwork he'll give you.
PN1040
Well, if you are carrying dangerous goods, you have to have shipping documentation?---We deal - - -
PN1041
Where does that come from?---We deal with that ourselves.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1042
You do that yourselves. When you say you do it yourself, what does that mean?---Well, we have a Transwest book which is our document to send us anywhere. We will fill it in to the letters that we'll receive from the company. They have a list of numbers. We have a list of contacts and that. We pull it all in with the UN numbers, your product, your carton. That will go into a sleeve in your door. You will get to hand the customer ....., and you will receive another set of documentations then which will be your transportation documentations.
PN1043
All of these details are contained in the Transwest manual?---Not all of them. Most of them ..... when you pick up your paperwork, it will have it on there, who you're picking up for, and they'll have a number.
PN1044
The number will be a dangerous goods number, and the number of orders. Does each client - - -?---You have your sulphuric acid 1830 and who the client is, whether it's ....., whether it's Orica, and then you'll just look in your book and you'll find Orica and you know their number.
PN1045
Have you seen - sorry. Your Honour, I would like to ask the witness to look at the HB76 book that was referred to yesterday. Have you seen something like that?---Yes, we got ..... with this as well as cards, the old PG cards.
PN1046
Your Honour, could I ask - I would also like the witness to look at RTO1. Is that what you mean by - - -?---Yes, that one is the hard copy with the organisation's name, location, telephone number, who to ask for. You have that in your door and you have to secure the page where you're working on it.
PN1047
So let us just say hydrochloric acid, which is the one on the EPG guide that you just had a look at, Mr Brown. That has a UN number, 1789?---That's it.
PN1048
Now, let us just say that you didn't know the name, you only knew the UN number. How would you find the name?---If you knew the UN number and you had one of those books, in the green part of it, it has the UN number.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1049
Okay?---You just find the UN, 1789, and you come to the page and you find 1789 and it'll tell you. It will tell you which ..... to go to which is in the yellow section which you would put your paperwork into that section. That's the way you'd put your - - -
PN1050
That would sit in your door?---That would sit in your door. The old ..... If you had an accident, it is so that the fire brigade and the police ..... and, you know, if they ....., they can read off the ..... what they need to know about the product.
PN1051
So, I guess, it is so that everyone knows what is happening in the - - -?---That's it.
PN1052
It is an internal situation. Have you ever had any emergency situations?---We had a - we went to a spill down at Morwell where acid was mixed in with liquid ....., and it heated up and we had to try and decant it before it flows up into the lines and that. We spent a day and a half down there, pumped so much water into it.
PN1053
When you say "we", who is we?---It was me, two other drivers and the company we were working for at that stage.
PN1054
Was the fire brigade or anyone else - - -?---The fire brigade arrived because the gas fumes came off it which were toxic so in the end, we had to use BAs.
PN1055
BAs is breathing apparatus?---Breathing apparatus.
PN1056
Were you sent down from Melbourne or were you already there?---I was already there. I was the second truck on the scene so I ended up having to stay there and given them a professional courtesy.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1057
How long after it happened were you there, Mr Brown?---I was there about 3½ hours after it.
PN1058
Okay?---I arrived there to find everything frozen, so then we had to, like, give the company a hand.
PN1059
What did the first driver do when the incident happened?---The first driver who had been on the site pumped out, signed his paperwork and that. He had left. He was on his way back to Melbourne when they found that a valve was left open in the line which caused the incident.
PN1060
And so he did what - you rang that fire brigade?---So I left - wasn't up in pursuit, I'd already left the scene.
PN1061
So it wasn't - the incident didn't involve the truck?---No, no, it was manual operations of the valves, someone left one on. We got there to find a - the steam gas coming out of these tanks that wasn't very good for anyone.
PN1062
What restricted driving routes - or what routes are you allowed to drive on?---Well, don't have very many restricted areas we can go to. We're not allowed to park near schools, not allowed to park near shopping centres, or where people or children are. If we wanted to pull over in a shop to get lunch or something you can only pull over, get what you need, get back in the vehicle and move off to a safe area.
PN1063
You talk about at some times when you wash out a vehicle after it is carting sulphuric acid the effect of the chemical reaction has been found to be carcinogenic, where did you get that information from?---We were told by - I can't think of his name, but he worked at Orica - Orica Chemicals, at the time it was ICI, and he was going through bits and pieces of what we do in our daily job in one of their many conferences that they had with us and he was saying that if by adding water to acid, the steam that comes off is a - cause carcinogenic in your system if you breath them in. Just loading sulphuric acid, the steam - the vapours that come off is known to do that as well. So we connect up, we start loading, we move away from the vehicles now.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1064
When you are not doing dangerous goods, we can go back to when you came up for work and we have been through sort of what happened when you are loading dangerous goods, if you are not doing dangerous goods the paperwork is still the same, is it?---The same. Virtually the same, the only difference is if you're carting non-dangerous goods which is liquid alum, well, clear feed, you paperwork is virtually the same, the only thing you are not doing is putting the UN number in, not placarding your vehicle.
PN1065
So they are putting in the UN number and placarding your vehicle takes you how long?---It depends, if you know what you're looking for.
PN1066
An experienced driver like you would know that, wouldn't you?---Yes, well, you don't have really much problems with it, over 10 years of service, you've like - know what you've got to put in.
PN1067
Even if you didn't know the number you would know how to find it pretty quickly?---Yes.
PN1068
And so what it takes you what 5, 10 minutes?---Yes, that - - -
PN1069
Do you know what the stiff penalties are, very stiff penalty is, which is I think is the words you use in your witness statement under the Dangerous Goods Code?---Certainly penalties for different - to - different parts of infringements that you've received for not having paperwork fully - fully filled out, the documentation, and not having your truck signed properly, not having a licensed DG vehicle. Your prime mover doesn't have to be licensed any more, it is just whatever you're carting behind you, like they cart a tanker so that has to be approved by Dangerous Goods, that has to have a licence on it, the vehicle must be roadworthy, you must be licensed. All the penalties arranged in different - - -
PN1070
Are you aware of any obligations on anyone else in the transport chain?---I know that you've got to get fined for not having a registered vehicle, $10,000 my way and it is a 100 and something thousand for the company.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1071
You wouldn't get in an unregistered vehicle though, would you?---No. Triple check everything we do.
PN1072
And you wouldn't drive without a licence, would you?---No.
PN1073
You wouldn't drive without your placards on the truck or trailer? So really that is all within your control, isn't it?---It's in my control.
PN1074
That is no different to any other driver who pulls general freight or anything else, is it?---No, the same thing.
PN1075
It is all within your - - -?---If you drive an unregistered vehicle and you get caught you deserve everything you get. There's no - no thing saying that - there's nothing that stops you from saying: look, this vehicle needs to be looked at.
PN1076
Just let us suppose that happened down at Transwest, you said to someone: look, I've got the wrong placard on it, I'm not taking that truck out. What would they do?---Well, they - we have certain signs already on our vehicles, so they look on their vehicle, find the signs, if they aren't there, we have other set against the wash bay which we have heaps of different sets, and if they can find their sets, if they are not there, they go to the leading hand or the supervisor and have to find them before they leave.
PN1077
Do you ever have a discussion or an argument with the supervisor that he has put the wrong sign: you've got the sign?---No, no.
PN1078
If you did, how would you solve it?---Well, the vehicle wouldn't go out of the yard until the right signs are there.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1079
And I think you said no one at your yard has been pinged in any way, shape or form?---We've been very lucky, ..... train drivers I think would be the main reason for that and the drivers are very tight with their money so they don't want to lose their hard earned - so yes, a lot of education goes in to that too, so.
PN1080
Would it be fair to say that Transwest is also a reasonable employer?---Yes.
PN1081
You say there is a big difference between carting fuel and corrosives?---Yes, well, fuel drivers all their paperwork is virtually done by computer. They compute a load, they load - all their manual handling is, is they hook up the load, type everything in to the computer.
PN1082
It is a pretty easy job being a fuel driver, is it?---Yes, it's a good job.
PN1083
What are the other differences?---All their paperwork is all computerised so all they do is, they go out to the site, they put their vests on, they go and get their tanks and then they hook up the hose and drain their tank. With us, we have to put a full PPE uniform on, hook up our hoses and that, get ready to pump out, we have to connect electricity. You then have to get permission to unload, that the vessel will hold the product you've got on, you've got to make sure you go in to the right vessel. you unload by pumping the load out. At the end of it you pressurise your system and blow your lines out, then you have to get the rest of your paperwork signed stating that it has been received safely.
PN1084
How long does that take?---A fuel tanker driver takes about half an hour to unload, us, we take an hour.
PN1085
An hour, okay, and you are very safety conscious?---Yes, I'm the OH&S rep for Transwest.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1086
You are safety conscious because, well, one, because you are the OH&S rep, but you don't want to get yourself injured?---No. you've got to - you look at it this way, the skin is yours, you've got to take that home at night. The job's not worth losing the - your eye, or your ears or something, for making a stupid mistake.
PN1087
So if you got paid $100 a week extra, would you do the job any differently?---No.
PN1088
No further questions.
PN1089
PN1090
MR GAYNOR: I think you fairly described this work as a bulk dangerous goods driver and I think you have also described that the nature of your work is - you have to be pretty careful, because as you say: your skin is yours, you have got to take it home at night and - - -?---That's it.
PN1091
Would you describe the work you do as the higher end of dangerous goods work because of the sensitive nature of it?---Yes, I think it is, working with corrosive liquids or any chemicals you can get in a situation, especially pumping, get in situations where you have got high velocity, where - if you're doing general, all you're doing is untarping the truck, taking some ropes off and the fork-lift is doing all the work. Where you actually manual handle the hoses, hook them up, you've got to make sure the flow is going in the right direction and then pressurising the system, to blow the lines out, that's where the danger part comes in to it. Loading and - loading, not to hard, you go and hook up a hose, you get it off the system, you type in what you want to load, it weighs to that quantity, you disconnect, so there is no pressure on that line. But when you go to unload there's pressure on the line because you're actually pumping through the line.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1092
Thank you. I think you mentioned before that initially when you commenced work with this company you were doing interstate dangerous goods work?---I was carting sulphuric acid. They call it sulphuric sludge, which comes out of the PRA. We were carting that to Port Kembla.
PN1093
Was that prior to the development of the national code, the Six Code? Were you working in the environment where the - - -?---The Six Code came in when I started in the fuel industry. I was working for a contractor in the fuel industry just before the Six Code came in. When the Six Code came in everyone went and got their DG licences and just every year as it changes you go and learn a bit more.
PN1094
Can I just read to you a couple of comments made by other witnesses and just see how you feel about these comments, if I may just turn to this. The first comment - if I can quote from a statement from another witness:
PN1095
Before these transport requirements were made uniform there were different requirements in different jurisdictions. This meant that companies transporting goods across border had to comply with two sets of requirements, some of which were contradictory. Licences were required in each jurisdiction and were not mutually recognised. This meant that an interstate operator may have held six different dangerous goods licences for the one vehicle for no effective benefit.
PN1096
?---Well, I held one in New South Wales before I had one in Victoria.
PN1097
Okay, so would you agree that that comment fairly reflects the environment at that stage?---Yes.
PN1098
If I could also read from another paragraph in a witness statement as well, and I quote:
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1099
This was the first time -
PN1100
and this refers to the development of the code -
PN1101
This was the first time that legislation across the States and Territories were brought into line with each other for dangerous goods transport. This legislation implemented mutual recognition procedures to minimise paperwork and maximise effective use of resources. It ensured that companies transporting goods across State boundaries could be confident that when they complied with any one State or Territory they were also complying with all others.
PN1102
Would you agree with that?---Yes, simple EPA, current EPA products you've got to have different paperwork for New South Wales.
PN1103
So that difficulty still arises - - -?---In some places, yes. We cart EPA stuff on an EPA registered driver. We cart stuff out of Mulwala for EPA. You come here in New South Wales, into Victoria, you have to have two sets of documentation.
PN1104
I see. Regarding your training, if you have to do training are you paid for doing that training?---Yes
PN1105
In regards to doing refresher courses for a dangerous goods licence, are you paid to do that?---Yes.
PN1106
I'm just trying to find the correct paragraph in your statement, can I turn you to paragraph 14 of your statement, in the first sentence - in the second sentence you say:
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1107
We have a lot more schooling now, which is a good thing. For us drivers carting dangerous goods we are scrutinised more by the law enforcement now.
PN1108
Can you please describe what you mean by that?---We do a lot of schooling which I don't have nothing against. It's better for us because it broadens what we do, gives us a better aspect in our jobs and it makes other companies look at how well schooled we've become doing our jobs. But we have - when they have these blitzes - the police - WorkCover, you're scrutinised on every bit of tanks, and that, stuff that you might not have responsibility for and it all comes back to the driver. The driver is the one, you know, so you've got to know more about your job than what your boss does so that if you get pulled over in an EPA blitz or a WorkCover blitz you've got to know exactly what to say and what to do about your vehicle or your hoses or that. We have - they have a testing system on the hoses. We have a register in our computer at work when you're pulled over in a WorkCover blitz and because our hoses aren't tagged with a test date, with a number, they would not accept that because under the rules and regulations in the No. 6 Guide you must have a test date on your hoses but for corrosive liquids these tags don't last. They eat away because with corrosive liquids you add water to wash hoses out it's caused corrosion. It'll eat the tag away. So we had this system put in place. We have documented, we sent it to WorkCover, we waited years and years for it to be approved. Now we've gone to their tagging system so when the tag runs out then the hose is no good. So you could go and do two loads, the tag falls off, you've got to take that hose off your truck.
PN1109
Can I ask you, would you say that the risk of being fined has increased or decreased following from the code?---It's increased and at the same time it makes you more aware of what you're doing.
PN1110
Why has it increased?---It increased because WorkCover is out there checking everything now where they never used to. They actually - they have these blitzes. You get pulled over. You get weighed by the RTA, the police check your licences and WorkCover - they check your dangerous goods licence and they check that you've got all your equipment that you're supposed to have by law and each and every one of the EPA, WorkCover officers, I don't have nothing against them but they all have different readings of the manuals the same as I would have a different reading to what they would.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1111
So do you think the code, because it is more detailed, has made it easier for people to be fined?---Yes, because you might say this is the way it should be on your vehicle and a company might read it a different way and actually set it up to the way they read it and you might think something different and when you get to the blitz they check it, this is wrong, this should be locked - well explain it to me where it's supposed to be locked.
PN1112
So is that a key reason for why the responsibility of drivers has increased?---Yes.
PN1113
Would you agree that there are, within bulk, the definition of bulk and if I could perhaps refer you to what's called TW6, an exhibit that was put in yesterday, if I could refer you to that, as you can see there it has got four different categories - - - ?---Yes.
PN1114
- - - which reflect the requirements, do you recognise those categories?---Yes, I do.
PN1115
Would you say that there are, in terms of risk and responsibility, different levels within bulk?---Yes, there is.
PN1116
Can I ask you to explain why you think that?---With a gas tanker you have a full tanker or an empty tanker. With a full tanker, if it tips over and gets a spark, cracks it, you can have an explosion but with an empty gas tanker the same thing because the gases are still in it. But a chemical tanker, whether it's loaded or it's empty, you still have residue inside the tanker if it's empty. It's an environmental hazard when it's empty. When it's loaded it's an environmental hazard and it's a danger. With a fuel tanker, when it's empty it's at its most dangerous compared to being loaded. The difference in capacities on vehicles these days where they talk 500 litres and over, at the moment we do litreage and we do KG, so we do tonnage and litres.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1117
Would it also be true that - I know you are talking in terms of liquids a lot here, but in terms of just the general definition of bulk, I would imagine that solid goods in bulk versus a liquid in bulk, in terms of risk and responsibility, might be two different things - between bulk and placard and packaged unplacarded - what would you say about the responsibility of a packaged unplacarded task?---I haven't actually done a lot of packaged stuff. I've done some training in it but you see vehicles going around with their little Class 8 diamond on the front and that's all they've got on it and you don't know how much of their load is Class 8, whether the whole load is Class 8 unless you actually look at the documentation. With my job my whole tanker will be Class 8 so I know exactly, and anyone seeing my tanker will know exactly that - it's Class 8.
PN1118
I have no further questions, thank you.
PN1119
PN1120
MR SHEARER: Thank you, your Honour. Good morning, Mr Brown, how are you?---Good.
PN1121
What grade or class do you drive?---I drive a Kenworth semi-trailer.
PN1122
A semi-trailer, so it is a Grade 6?---Yes, Grade 6.
PN1123
What mass does it normally operate at?---They run 42 and a half. At the moment we are now working on mass management and it is up to 45.
PN1124
Okay, so currently you are under statutory limits?---Yes.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1125
Therefore, you are not a restricted access vehicle at the moment. When you go under the mass management program, what is your understanding about that program at the moment?---We only actually just started last week, so I'm still going through the manual and that, but from what I understand where we deliver to and where we will be delivering under mass management we won't have any restrictions.
PN1126
Okay, well, the mass management program does actually have restrictions, but from what you have said that may mean that the places you are going to are en route basically?---Yes.
PN1127
Would that be right?---That's it.
PN1128
Okay, so once you are doing that you will actually have controls over your access being 55 the mass management of the rigs?---That's it.
PN1129
..... have to check that. Are you aware that a lot of other truck drivers who cart general freight may have to do that as well?---Yes, gas tankers have certain routes they're allowed to follow. We - under corrosive liquids and chemicals that we cart we don't really have such restrictions, where we have to stay away from schools, shopping centres, general populations where people are gathering.
PN1130
Are you aware of the system around the country, including in your State, of gazettes groups?---Yes.
PN1131
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Shearer, sorry, just pause. I did not hear the last question you asked. Did you move a little away from a microphone?
PN1132
MR SHEARER: No, but I will get the microphone towards me.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1133
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Yes, would you ask the last question again please?
PN1134
MR SHEARER: Certainly, yes.
PN1135
Are you aware of the gazette system that exists for controlling route access?---That, I do.
PN1136
Can you tell us what that achieves?---The gazette advises drivers, the companies, of allowable routes and safety systems throughout the road systems in Victoria and country.
PN1137
Does that apply to operations other than dangerous goods?---Yes.
PN1138
What other responsibilities do you have as a driver of a heavy vehicle, quite apart from all the ..... dangerous goods stuff that you have already talked about, what, if we asked you to summarise your other responsibilities what would you say they are?---We have - our duties are of care to people, the environment, for the company and for our customers, so anyone - any road users we have to have courtesy to them, like, follow the road rules as required in Australia, company policies. You've got to look after your customers so being polite.
PN1139
Driving hours regulations - - - ?---Driving hours regulations as stipulated by the RTA.
PN1140
You mentioned the road worthiness of the vehicle. I think it was in response to one of Mr Ryan's questions, you talked about road worthiness. How do you know whether or not the vehicle you are driving is roadworthy?---You actually don't know. Over the years of being around vehicles you get an idea of what is roadworthy and what is not. At the same time, if you believe something is unsafe or un-roadworthy, you take it to the mechanics and they make the decision whether it is safe to go on the road or not.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1141
So the company bears the major responsibility for making sure the vehicle is roadworthy?---Yes.
PN1142
The role of the driver is to ..... and talk to them if you see a problem?---Yes.
PN1143
Okay?---Yes.
PN1144
Okay - - - ?---Like, if you see a tyre scrubbing out, you know what the tyre looks like - you know what a scrubbed out tyre looks like so you know, okay, that is getting down on its tread, I need to report that so they can put it into the systems. Okay, that trailer coming off for service this week, we'll change all those tyres.
PN1145
Right?---That tyre is no good now, we'll change it now.
PN1146
So if you compare that to the role of the company and your role in relation to dangerous goods the idea is pretty much the same, isn't it?---Yes.
PN1147
I think you were - - - ?---You've got to protect your company and yourself and everyone around you so with our company we're pretty lucky, they're safety conscious the same as we are, so we get around it that way.
PN1148
I think you mentioned before ..... that in talking about what happens at the start of the day when you walk in and you are provided with your paperwork and so on. What I write in underpinning that you said that basically there are other people in the business who make sure the signage and so on is on the truck, you check it, but other people do it, is that right?---We - the way our system works is you walk in the yard, you get a computer print out of what you're doing for the day. We check our vehicle and make sure everything is on. Where the fuel drivers, they will get their computer read out with everything on it and they will go and change their signs to their load the same as we would, where they would have just a flap to turn over, we have a whole UN card to change.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1149
Do you actually change that yourself, or do you just check that it has been done, you change it?---We change it.
PN1150
Okay, all right?---Our responsibility.
PN1151
All right. All the retraining every three years, do you think that is useful?---Yes. There is stuff you remember, there is stuff you forget and while we're doing the training it does bring it out where training to ..... in between your three years they will throw another training course in there.
PN1152
Right. If the regulations didn't require it, would you still do it?---Yes, you would have to just to keep up with it.
PN1153
All right. One other witness has said in their statement:
PN1154
We're all just doing a course, fire fighting, driving course, first-aid. It's just for awareness because people get lacks all the time.
PN1155
Would you agree with that?---Yes, and no. You've got to keep aware of everything you're doing by the training, it keeps you up to the standards gives you - tells you stuff that you may have forgot and at the same time there might be a new system or something in there that you can pick up.
PN1156
Thank you. The regular medicals, how often do you have those?---Our company is going to yearly, but it is every three years, unless you are 49, so every year.
PN1157
Do you think that is a good thing?---Yes.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1158
Who pays for that?---The company is paying for all of ours as a yearly thing.
PN1159
So you will be getting a yearly medical at the company's expense?---Good for us. That was generated through our EBA. We had a few drivers that were obese and a few unsafe drivers, they decided over the years and the amount of sickies and that, they decided to go that way.
PN1160
Yes. That medical that you do, are you aware of whether it is specific to dangerous goods, or whether it is the same as some other medical - - - ?---The company, the one they're going to run, will be part dangerous goods and part another system. I'm not 100 per cent sure on yet.
PN1161
There is a national - - - ?---National drivers .....
PN1162
Okay?---It's going to be part that, part dangerous goods so it's going to be a little bit higher than what the dangerous goods recommendation is.
PN1163
Are you aware of a program called Truck Safe?---Yes.
PN1164
Are you aware that drivers in that program, whether they cart dangerous goods or not, have to have the medical?---Yes.
PN1165
Have you heard of the National Heavy Vehicle Accreditation Scheme for Roadworthiness?---Yes.
PN1166
Did you know that in South Australia you have to be in either Truck Safe, or that Roadworthiness Scheme if you come south of Port Augusta?---They've got to carry a medical certificate with them all the time.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1167
Yes, exactly, regardless of whether they're carting dangerous goods ..... aware that it is the same medical?---Yes.
PN1168
Thank you. You talked about an accident that you assisted to clean up and you said that the fire brigade arrived later and I think you said they noted some fumes?---The fumes were visual because of the steam that was being let off from the hot ..... and the acid mixed in together. At that stage we were working on it, it was pretty safe. We had our respirators and that on. As the chemicals mixed a little bit further the steam and the fumes got higher, starting going all over the place and started becoming a smoke cloud, that's when the CFA arrived and blanketed the joint off.
PN1169
Right?---It became a BA site.
PN1170
Who made the decision about going to breathing apparatus, or BA?---That was the chief - - -
PN1171
Chief?---Fire Chief.
PN1172
Fire fighter. Is that a decision that you would expect a qualified dangerous goods truck driver to make?---No.
PN1173
Okay, is that not something that - - - ?---We look at - we look at it and if you think it is too dangerous you wouldn't go near it. We're not trained to handle that.
PN1174
Okay?---All we were doing was pumping it out. When it came to the situation where it was - got to that standard it was up to someone to say: okay, we're taking over, that's it.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1175
Okay, thank you. You explained the fairly full process for loading on sites, of putting on protective gear, checking with the office that it is now okay to actually load the tanker and connecting up the electricity and all of that. That is a very controlled and step-by-step process, isn't it?---Yes.
PN1176
Is that a good thing from your point of view?---It has to be that way because the volume that you're loading in at one stage.
PN1177
How long has it been like that?---Since I've been in the industry, they've always had a step-by-step. The difference is, is when I first started in the industry, the equipment wasn't as good as what it is now, so gradually as Orica rebuilt their system it became better but, at the same time, it made more work for us because we had to do all of it now where they used to do it for us.
PN1178
But as you said I think that makes sure you get to take your skin home at night?---That's it.
PN1179
How do you see the balance between the extra steps that you may now have compared to the safety benefit for you?---The extra steps ..... were to control and to slow you down, make you think of how you're doing it. The safety benefit, it is 100 per cent that you're wearing your gear. You can't go along to there site without your gear, you can't go into the control loading area without your gear.
PN1180
So would it be right to say that because of the very close control over what you are doing that there are people monitoring it on monitors and things like that are there?---You have the site supervisor walking around.
PN1181
Right?---Under ..... gantry they have a visual.
PN1182
Right?---Pivot, over in Geelong, they actually have a loader to load you. You do all the connections, they do the loading.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1183
I understand with the induction training on each site you get trained in all of that which is important obviously, but given the control process how possible is it for you to get it wrong by virtue of that - does that process - - - ?---You've only got to put one number in wrong.
PN1184
You can only put one number in wrong, so you actually go to put in a number and, what, that would load the wrong fuel?---You don't know - you go - certain sites have certain ..... a load, so if we're talking about Chemnet in Yarraville, you'll be loading sulphuric acid, or you'll be loading battery acid. Battery acid is controlled by the computer, so the operator loads it, you connect up.
PN1185
Right?---If you're loading sulphuric acid, you connect up, you put your probe in, you climb down, you control your meter.
PN1186
Right?---So you have to put litreage in and how much you want to load on your vehicle.
PN1187
So is perhaps the most important responsibility you have in that process is getting that number right. Okay. All right, thank you. In response to one of Mr Gaynor's questions about enforcement issues and problems, would you say that the enforcement now is a lot more technical and eve nit-picking, is that what you would say?---I think they nit-picked for a long time there to clean the industry up. Now, they are virtually specific on what they're chasing because they know where people lack you know responsibilities.
PN1188
Do you talk to other truck drivers who don't do dangerous goods work but general freight work and other work - - - ?---I talk to everyone in ..... I speak to all our drivers. I speak to people outside the industry.
PN1189
Okay. Do you find them saying the same sorts of things about the enforcement?---They find not - I wouldn't say we're harassed - but they find that when they do actually come out and do their enforcement that they're chasing certain stuff.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1190
Again, referring to the Truck Safe Program, I think you were talking about some stickers on hoses, or labels on hoses?---Yes.
PN1191
Are you aware that the accreditation programs like Truck Safe and NHVAS, also require stickers to be on trucks? Have you heard from - - -
PN1192
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just pause for a moment. Mr Brown, bear in mind that your evidence is being transcribed so nothing is picked up if you shake or nod your head, so you've got to say something?---Okay. No worries.
PN1193
I think the answer to the last question was "yes"?---Yes.
PN1194
Yes, thanks.
PN1195
MR SHEARER: Thank you, your Honour. Have you heard from any of the drivers about any problems with the stickers that they have to ..... - - - ?---No, no, I haven't.
PN1196
No?---They seem to - when you come up to a weighbridge to be - go through the system, if you're accredited through one of those Truck Safe systems or that they seem to go and get through a lot faster than what we would.
PN1197
Okay. You said in your statement in paragraph 14 and it follows on again from ..... Mr ..... phrased ..... past tense. You said also many drivers don't want to cart dangerous goods now because of risk and the increased skill and responsibility and they are often not paid any more. Is the risk the actual danger from the product any greater than it was, or is it in fact less because of all the safety procedures?---I think a lot of drivers have a lot of problems with the training and most drivers aren't very educated, that is why they get into the industry. When they look at doing general or carting furniture and that they get
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
a certain wage which is our basic wage. When you go into carting dangerous goods with all the regulations and rules and that you follow, they don't like doing it because there is no money involved, you go out and load a load of spuds you get $16 an hour. Go out and load a load of gas, $16 an hour.
PN1198
But on the point of risk you have said:
PN1199
I don't want to cart dangerous goods now because of the risk.
PN1200
Is the risk higher, or less now because of the safety procedures?---No, I don't think the risk factor would have changed much.
PN1201
All right?---There's always things that you - if you leave out of the system that risk will get higher.
PN1202
Okay. All right, that is all, thanks very much.
PN1203
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Shariff?
PN1204
PN1205
MR SHARIFF: Mr Brown, I will endeavour to be short. You say you were involved in loading a dangerous goods product .....?---Yes.
PN1206
And you get paid for the loading and unloading time, don't you?---We get - I get paid hourly, unless I'm on trip money. If I'm on trip money I'll get an hourly rate and then I get my trip money of the distance I cover.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1207
But you get the hourly rate for the time you're actually loading?---Yes.
PN1208
You say that there are some dangerous goods products where you don't need to load and unload because it is done automatically, for example fuel?---If you do fuel, the only thing you do as a driver is you hook your vehicle up to the hose lines and you type in your quantity for your compartments.
PN1209
So there are some dangerous goods products, even though they're bulk, where those drivers aren't doing what you're doing .....?---They don't - they walk up with their clothes on as you would do, they have glasses on and they would hook up where we would have to put a full plastic PVC suit on to hook one hose up.
PN1210
Would it be fair to say that your roles and your duties as a dangerous goods driver can actually vary?---Yes, depending on what you're doing. If you're doing any chemicals you're always in a suit. Where if you're doing fuel you don't have to put the plastic suit on.
PN1211
But in terms of loading and unloading, your duties can actually vary then too, can't they based on the product?---Based on product and where you're pumping out at or where - or what you're unloading, you have got to change what you would be wearing.
PN1212
You say there are some places that you've gone into in some yards where you don't even need to .....?---There's only two in Australia that I know of under sulphuric acid that you don't actually load, they load you. All you do is check your catches.
PN1213
But for products other than sulphuric acid there could be yards where a dangerous good driver need not have to load or unload at all?---Ninety per cent of the time you would have to load yourself.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1214
Does that apply specifically bulk or does it once again vary on the nature of the product?---It's mainly bulk. We handle bulk products and it is - you go load it because its on your vehicle. You've got to get your actual weights right, you've got to have - load it and you're responsible for that load once it's on your vehicle, so if someone went out and loaded your vehicle for you and you bought it back to the yard and he hasn't done it correctly, you pick it up and you're responsible for his stuff ups.
PN1215
So if someone else has loaded the product already, your role is then to check that it's been properly loaded?---Double-check everything.
PN1216
Double-check everything and check the documents?---The documentation.
PN1217
Now, if a truck and a trailer was loaded with products other than dangerous goods, you would still run the same checks?---You would, yes.
PN1218
I've nothing further.
PN1219
PN1220
MS FIELD: Mr Brown, just a couple of questions, firstly could I take you to point 14 in your statement please. In the second sentence you say:
PN1221
We have to have a lot more ..... now which is a good thing
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MS FIELD
PN1222
And I know that Mr Shearer I think has spoken to you about that already. Could I just ask you to clarify then over what period are you talking since you started being a DG driver?---In the last 4 years we've just finished level 4 in transport. To do that we had to do another drive course which is the 3 day ..... course. We had to get a first aid certificate. We then had to do fire assessments, awareness assessments, product assessments, handling assessments. So you had a driver trainer from somewhere in the industry come out with you and go with you and they would go over what transport would expect you to be doing and see, okay, he does that, correct, correct, correct and there's a bit of training in here and the driver trainer would retrain you on that valuation. Once you have reached their specifications and you get marked off on that.
PN1223
Thank you, and in terms of people who are not driving dangerous goods I assume that ..... has the same sort of focus on training with transport?---Yes.
PN1224
So do they do the same sort of training?---They do training - - -
PN1225
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr Brown. Ms Field, the last two questions were fairly - well, the last one was inaudible and the one before was reasonably faint. Could you at least repeat the last one?
PN1226
MS FIELD: The question was have the non DG drivers done the same sort of training as Mr Brown has just been describing?---Yes, they have. The training criteria is made up from our HR&S division. We decided that every driver would train, become a level 4 in their division of what they do. So tipper drivers would have a system made up to make them a level in tippers. We would do one dangerous goods, they have all done one in all five divisions of our company.
PN1227
So there is the same sort of level of competence required of all the drivers across the different areas, all the districts concerned?---Yes, very much so.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN XXN MS FIELD
PN1228
Thank you. Could I also just ask you a question which Mr Shariff touched on and which I'm not entirely sure about. In terms of the loading and unloading procedures at different places, are the loading procedures determined by the nature of the product to loading or is it just by the technology that the facility happens to have?---Both, depending on how the equipment is and by the way they expect you in their safety, where Orica is very high up in their safety, they will have a higher safety than say if you went to each attempt in Sydney.
PN1229
You could load the same product?---Load the same products and it could be a different system.
PN1230
The other thing I think Mr Ryan asked you a question about, typically how long it takes to load DG's compared with fuel and I think you said an hour for DG's and half an hour for fuel. Were we talking about the same volume?---You load 45,000 litres of fuel in half an hour. You load 25 ton, which is 14,000 litres of sulphuric acid in an hour.
PN1231
I have no further questions, your Honour.
PN1232
PN1233
MR DUFFIN: In relation to a question - - -
PN1234
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Duffin, it is not clear.
PN1235
MR DUFFIN: Mr Brown, in relation to a question Mr Ryan put to you, he asked you about you obtaining your bulk dangerous good licence and you said that you obtained it about 12 years ago. He asked what you were taught at those courses, the courses essentially teach you the law. That is correct, isn't it?---That's it.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN RXN MR DUFFIN
PN1236
How do you learn about dangerous goods generally then?---We learn dangerous goods through the company you are working for. Every company has different procedures on handling. They have their own way of handling, different products, different awareness so you have to be able to react to the different reactions that the product may give you.
PN1237
How does that learning affect what you do?---In the case of sulphuric acid, because of the nature of sulphuric acid and the way you can burn seriously, like just touch on the skin, your reactions to it, if you feel that you are unsafe with it, you feel scared of it, you can make really bad mistakes. But by feeling safe with the way you handle it is what the skills you get taught by your driver trainer who trains you to actually load it and handle it.
PN1238
Mr Ryan also asked you a question in relation to receiving allowance per day, of $2 per day, which was negotiated in the EBA you said. Do you believe that compensates you for carting dangerous goods?---No.
PN1239
Why not?---We have to work hard to get the $2 for our EBA, it was sort of like a pay rise. When you look at the industry, you have fewer drivers on $27 and they don't have to do documentation like we do. The products we cart, we've got to put plastic suits on, respirators, face shields, they cart fuel. All they do with their job is wear safety glasses, reflector disks and gloves where you have got people out in the industry carting stuff with the same money we're getting less the $2.
PN1240
Mr Ryan also asked you in relation to - he was talking about the sort of walk around safety check you do in relation to sort of, you know, and I think Mr Gaynor and Mr Shearer both subsequently asked questions in relation to that. Are there specific obligations that you have to do when you are carting dangerous goods which are different to those which you do when you are not carting dangerous goods?---The obligations are that you signage is visible and readable. So if you have got a dirty sign, you must wash it and make sure it's readable, legible from a distance. Your vehicles, you've really got to look after your vehicles and make sure they are up to date with all the codes, the licences
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN RXN MR DUFFIN
on your vehicles are in date. At the same all your hoses are in date, all your tanks are stamped and dated to the codes. Everything has got to be in date, if it is not in date, you can't take it out on the road. It's just like a car being unroadworthy. If a tank is out of date, then it's unroadworthy.
PN1241
Mr Ryan essentially asked you whether there was anything different between doing dangerous goods and not doing dangerous goods and your answer to him was, it is exactly the same thing. You need to do - get the right equipment to do the job. Is there a difference in the sort of equipment you would use in relation to dangerous goods as opposed to other goods?---In dangerous goods, you are using a tanker. In bulk dangerous goods, you use the tanker, safety equipment.
PN1242
What sort of safety equipment?---PPE which your full body plastics, your gauntlet gloves, face shield, goggles and your helmet, your rubber boots where load all other stuff, all you need is a pair of gloves, flat top trailer and some ropes.
PN1243
Mr Ryan also asked you in relation to what would happen if the signs weren't put on the truck appropriately and would you have a discussion with your supervisor. Whose obligation is it - to your knowledge, whose obligation is it that the truck has been appropriately signed?---It's the drivers obligation. They have their paperwork in front of them or tell them the signs they will need which would be sulphuric acid, 1830, 2T, the bits on the bottom. It's up to the driver to put them on to ensure that his loads specify.
PN1244
Now, Mr Shearer asked you a series of questions in relation to medicals and you said that in relation to part of your medicals that they have been generated through the EBA. Is that correct?---The new medical we start doing once a year was generated through the EBA. The company wished it to happen. We, as drivers, decided it's better for us to have the medicals because at the same time it's a benefit to us, it's a benefit to the company. So seeing as they are paying for them, you have got to accept what's a gift.
PN1245
Do you know whether truck safe is an industry accreditation scheme or a company specific accreditation scheme?---The industry.
**** ROBERT TREVOR BROWN RXN MR DUFFIN
PN1246
Do you know whether the mass management scheme that Mr Shearer was referring to, was that something that is specific to your company or is it specific to the industry?---It's going through the industry at the moment. It's to able vehicles to put more mass on as long as they can approve the load correctly. It gives the company a benefit of able load more weight on their vehicles.
PN1247
I've no further questions, your Honour.
PN1248
PN1249
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We might as well have our mid-morning break now, 10 minutes.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
RESUMED [11.40am]
PN1250
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Duffin?
PN1251
PN1252
MR DUFFIN: Mr Brown, do you mind stating your name for the purposes of the Commission's records?---Certainly. Bruce Reginald Brown, Flat 1, 8 Clyde Street, Maribyrnong.
PN1253
You are presently employed by Chemtrans as a driver?---Correct.
PN1254
Now, you have made a statement in this proceeding but there's some changes you would seek to make to that statement, that is correct, isn't it?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1255
One of the changes is in relation to the first paragraph there where, after the word "waste", you would seek the insertion of locally and interstate?---Correct.
PN1256
In the second paragraph you say that you have held your bulk dangerous good licence for a period of over 10 years?---Correct.
PN1257
Are there any changes that you would seek to make in relation to the second page?---Yes, there is. Section 5 on the second page, on the second line, "classes of dangerous goods in isotones" actually it is road tankers as well.
PN1258
So it is road tankers or isotones?---Yes, and I would like to add on the bottom line of that chemicals such as crude oil and Dow Chemicals, Orica and Huntsman's chemicals as well.
PN1259
Is there anything further on that page?---No, no.
PN1260
On the following page, are there any changes?---No, page 3 is correct.
PN1261
Page 4, are there any changes?---Yes. On the third dot down to paragraph that the buddy system, it goes over 4 weeks.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XN MR DUFFIN
PN1262
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which is the 4 weeks, Mr Brown? Is that a change to the 3 weeks or the 2 weeks?---Mine had 3 weeks, then it had the 2 weeks.
PN1263
So it is a change, I see. Should I change the first line to 4 weeks?
PN1264
MR DUFFIN: It should be on both, your Honour.
PN1265
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Both of them 4 weeks?---Yes, your Honour.
PN1266
Thank you, yes.
PN1267
MR DUFFIN: Are there any further changes on that page?---No, not on that page.
PN1268
Now, the following page, the word "oil" in bold should be replaced by "fuel". That is correct, isn't it?---That's correct.
PN1269
Are there any other changes on that page?---Yes, under ..... similarities on the work of oil tanker drivers of 15, it states one of the products it carries racing fuel, they get delivered to Sandown and Bathurst and mainly Winton Race Course.
PN1270
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, I didn't understand what change you want to make though to paragraph 15. Is there anything you want me to?
PN1271
MR DUFFIN: After Bathhurst, your Honour, it should say, "and Winton", W-i-n-t-o-n.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XN MR DUFFIN
PN1272
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: W-i-n-t-o-n, thank you.
PN1273
MR DUFFIN: Are there any changes on the following page, which is page 6?---No, no changes there.
PN1274
Now, page 7, paragraph 22, the 7 days per week should be 6 days?---That's correct.
PN1275
Is there any other changes on that page?---Yes, on paragraph 24, where it talks briefly the paint manufacture is classed is solvents.
PN1276
That sentence comes in:
PN1277
These are mainly classed as solvents.
PN1278
?---Yes. Sorry, where it has got ..... so it very rare the paint manufactures another product which is similar fuel but I should have inserted the word, the actual product is "solvents".
PN1279
Okay. So this product is solvents?---Correct.
PN1280
Then on the following page, paragraph 26, the word "agreement" should actually be - - -?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1281
Any other changes you make to it?---No.
PN1282
So in paragraph 26, the word "agreement" should be ..... Are there any other changes you would make to it?---No, thank you.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XN MR DUFFIN
PN1283
So is the statement true and correct in every particular with those changes?---It is.
PN1284
PN1285
MR DUFFIN: Beyond that, I have got no examination, your Honour.
PN1286
PN1287
MR RYAN: Mr Brown, you have held a dangerous goods licence for over 10 years?---Correct.
PN1288
Can you tell us how you got your licence?---I was employed by Cleanaway, originally as a refuse driver and we were instructed that the company obtained the dangerous goods licences on top of our EPA ascribed based licence.
PN1289
So how did you actually get a licence? Did you go to the big roads?---The company schedules us to be sent to a TAFE where we are trained over a 2 day period on the handling and use signage of dangerous goods, the compatibility of different loads, the safe operating to their standards of the fact of the dangerous goods products and a general knowledge of the handling and transporting of dangerous goods.
PN1290
Did the company pay for that testing and licence?---Yes.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1291
It was 10 years ago. Have you done any refreshes?---Yes.
PN1292
What you learnt 10 years ago, or over 10 years ago, is still relevant today?---It's still relevant today but there's been many additions put forward to it in the training. The training has become a lot more rigorous.
PN1293
Well, what are some of the changes in the training?---There's been different products introduced into the chemical companies. There's been some taken out. There's been some that have been named as some certain chemical additives put through them so they have actually changed or added names to the different chemicals. The introduction was already before being of some risk so that it's like an up to date knowledge to the drivers that ring up. So what you learned 10 years ago provided a foundation and every 3 years you go and just review the foundation and get it topped up as necessary, would that be a fair comment?---It's not a topped up thing actually, it's a re-application for your dangerous goods licence. So you might be in there for renewal of your licence, well, you have to sit the whole course again and there might be guys there sitting for their first DG licence. Even though you're already an experienced DG licence, they will bring you already up to date regulations and rules that have been brought in within your licence running out by that.
PN1294
I think you said you did a 2-day course 10 years ago?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1295
And when you do a refresher course is that a 2-day course?---A 1-day course.
PN1296
One day course?---Yes.
PN1297
Do you have to do another exam at the end of that 1-day course?---Yes.
PN1298
How long does that take, the exam?---The last time we were there I think it was approximately 10 hours for the - the duration of the course and the exam at the end was approximately about an hour and a half.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1299
And what did the exam entail, what did you have to do?---They wanted feed back mainly off - what - what you'd been told with your signage, your classes of dangerous goods, isolation, what can be carried with what, what can't be, safety needs.
PN1300
Did you have to remember - - -?---Documentation.
PN1301
Sorry - I'm sorry, Mr Brown. Had you finished answering my question, I'm sorry, I thought you had that is why I asked - - -?---Sorry, yes.
PN1302
Did you have to remember everything to pass a test, or did you have some stuff there that helped you pass the test?---There's a - they're pretty stringent, there's a passing level, if you don't come up to that passing level you have to resit the exam.
PN1303
Do many guys not pass the exam on the first go?---I've seen many not pass, yes.
PN1304
When you did the exam did you have some papers there to help you answer the questions?---There is - parts of the questions there are, parts of the test at the end there was - you might have to pick an answer out of three or four answers and some are very confusing for some people, some aren't.
PN1305
Can I ask - I think it is TW5, so have you seen something like this before, Mr Brown?---Yes, I have.
PN1306
Can you explain to us what it tells us?---It basically tells you the compatibility of the different products which can be loaded with what, and which can't.
PN1307
Do you use this on an every day basis?---Not on an every day basis, because some times we're carting the same product, like it might be a multi run, yet if we're - we do do different other runs with a multi load, yes, we refer to this chart.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1308
So if you have to segregate any dangerous goods you know how to go about doing that from this sheet, is that - - -?---Always check by the sheet.
PN1309
I think you say in your witness statement, Mr Brown, that about 90 per cent of your work involves the transport of dangerous goods. Can I assume from that, the other 10 per cent does not?---The other 10 per cent would be chemicals which are classed as non-hazardous.
PN1310
So that is like general freight?---Like oil. No, not general freight. Just - it's all chemicals.
PN1311
If you got a dangerous goods load could you tell us if you come in to work and you are given some paperwork and you are going to do a dangerous goods load, could you tell us what you do?---First from when we start we do a pre-vehicle inspection which consists of checking lights, tyres, oil, etcetera. Fire extinguishers, making sure that dates on the extinguisher are up to date, checking the trailer, making sure DGSR which is - we have a policy with Chemtrans, we've got a DGSR emergency on the trailer itself, which contains dangerous goods books, regulations, which are also put in the cabin, which are required by law. Fire extinguishers, double check for leaks, we have to have a certificate of cleanliness for that particular tanker or isotoner. We visually check that the isotoner is in very good condition, so as far as seals go, valves, caps and manholes are sealed correctly and that the - it's got the correct EIPs, emergency information panels in the right places and everything is visual and legible.
PN1312
How long does that take?---It varies, because we might be doing multi loads so then we might have to check if we've got our multi load signs, or it might be a separate product. So we make sure that we have our signs that are all correct. We make sure that - we have to have correct, recheck everyday our - correct PPE clothing, full protection clothing requirements for that particular product which involves sometimes breathing apparatus, right through to self-contained breathing apparatus, face shields, gloves.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1313
Are we looking at 10 minutes or - - -?---A minimum of 20 minutes.
PN1314
Do you have to buy your own personal protective equipment or - - -?---No, excuse me, no, we're supplied fully by Chemtrans.
PN1315
Do you have to buy any of your own placards, or anything like that?---No.
PN1316
That is all provided by - - -?---All provided by the company.
PN1317
When you do your refresher course, who pays for that?---The company.
PN1318
And do they pay you if you need to do any other training and stuff?---Yes.
PN1319
If you weren't doing a dangerous goods load and you were just doing a normal chemical load, would you still do the vehicle check?---Yes.
PN1320
Basically the same thing?---Yes.
PN1321
Whether you are doing a dangerous goods or a non-hazardous or chemical - I will call it "non-hazardous load" the process you go through is the same?---Exactly the same. We still treat whether it is a non-hazardous load, or an oil load, or wax load, whatever it may be because we might deliver that to the rail to go interstate, to the wharf, that either goes interstate as well, or overseas and then we might - we'll ring our boss or supervisor and they might say: go and pick up an iso from Hyde Park to do the cleaning and washing of the isotones and issue you with a cleanliness certificate. Pick up the paperwork from there and go and do a dangerous goods load. So we have to have our equipment with us all the time. It has to be checked on a weekly basis which is randomly done by other drivers or by the supervisors, management.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1322
So when you say that equipment is checked, what equipment would that be?---From your - your full PPE, from, you know, your gum boots right up to your hard hat, your safety glasses, to your goggles, to your face shields, your protective clothing, your yellow plastics are checked for cracks, tears, and everything like that.
PN1323
So you might check on another driver's on a regular basis and supervisors or management check on drivers as well, just to make sure the system is working?---That's right. Excuse me, including getting things including first aid kits, emergency eye wash bottles, the emergency book's in the right place - position.
PN1324
Who provides the first aid kits?---The company.
PN1325
The company provides the first aid kits. When you talk about the emergency book - your Honour, again I would ask your associate to hand that up to the - do you know if that book was .....?---Yes, I certainly do.
PN1326
Is that the book you are referring to when you talk about that procedure?---This bundle of books that covers that, where before it used to be - it used to be on a separate sheet, where this book introduced it covers the - I would imagine 99 per cent of the dangerous goods that are carted. We also have a driver's manual, the pan tec issue, which we can go back on and double check which has a little bit more information on here, on what's in here as far as the first aid palpitations procedures and company and law procedures which are required by law to contact numbers, ie, the fire brigade, ambulance, police and to notify - we have a - actually there's a hot line 24, that's managed right throughout Australia, we can ring that number and report an incident. Even near misses that we - we've reported and ..... and we trained to whatever product we're dealing with, if there was a spill or an incident what evasive action should be taken and to comply with the rules of the company that we are picking up or delivering to.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1327
So that the company has put in place - this make it easier for you to do your job handling dangerous goods?---The company puts in the policy like this because the handling and transporting of dangerous goods, it's a hazard, can be a hazard, I'm personally not frightened of dangerous goods, if I could put it in that term, but I treat it all with the greatest respect it deserves and I think there's no room for error.
PN1328
Is it easier now than it was 10 years ago when you first got your licence?---I would say it is actually more stringent now. The demands are higher, schedules are required. The laws have been brought in in different variations as far as the load to the restraint systems, full protection, isolation of your - specifically in road tankers where you can have what they have - we call a quick shut system which will shut down the compartments on the tanker. We have a quick shut system on the isotoners as well, which is accessible right through down one side of the iso where it is full type of cable operated which will actually shut the valve inside the isotoner. There's a valve, a manual operated valve after that, but that quick shut valve which shut down automatically and the same with the road tankers. We can signal - radio to departments by pushing one button.
PN1329
What is the purpose of that?---If we're at - if we happen to have an incident or spill - at customers - either loading or unloading and their hose splits, or you're delivering somewhere and there's been a problem with a leak or anything we can shut down that product straight away and reduce the spill to a minimum.
PN1330
And I think you said if there is a spill or an incident you can ring the hotline number?---Yes.
PN1331
Have you ever had a spill or an incident?---No, I've attended other spills and incidents but myself, no, I haven't.
PN1332
Do you know what the Dangerous Goods Regulations say, what a driver is supposed to do in a spill or incident?---Yes.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1333
What is that?---The Dangerous Goods Regulations is - in - if I could put it layman's terms, there is an incident there. Try to shut down as much things as possible. Warn the company, or it's usually the hotline number or button you can push or raise an alarm. If it's a dangerous product that's carcinogenic, or whatever, you try to keep downwind. You warn others, you try and look after the well-being of the operators, other people in the area, you warn them as quick as possible. You isolate your truck the best you can at the time. Usually the response is within seconds - or probably minutes, I would imagine, it depends where you are - and you try and assist there - emergency response, to contain, to do anything you can help to provide, to rectify the spill.
PN1334
When you say - I think you said notify the emergency services?---Yes. Usually - all different sites have different induction regulations. They don't vary very - like often - but some are a little bit different to others. They require, if we hit the button when we go to unload or load, we know there's a button within reach straight away.
PN1335
How do you know that?---That's done in your inductions, when you go there prior to unloading or loading at that place.
PN1336
So, you can't go into a site, say, I think you said Huntsman, or Orica, without going through an induction process?---No.
PN1337
What is the purpose of that induction process?---It's to make aware - this is also done regularly on a re - an update basis - the last few years at Huntsman's and if there's any amendments to the rules we get a prompt print-out within our paperwork to say this has been done. When we go there, the safety officer there will explain us and show us what that particular change is and in the induction, the Huntsman induction takes about three hours because they will actually walk you around to the whole plant. I've covered the whole plant as much as I can. They will show you where all the emergency seals are, emergency buttons, muster points, first-aiders and emergency response personnel, phones, fire-fighting, and first-aid fire-fighting and they will actually be - when you go there for your inductions, they will explain to you their way of dealing with a spill or an incident.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1338
So they give you a pretty thorough going over or a very thorough site - and I imagine that's the same at Orica and Davkin ..... ?---Yes.
PN1339
..... Falls?---Yes.
PN1340
..... or wherever it might be?---Yes.
PN1341
That's for your safety and the safety of people there, I assume?---It's for everybody's safety.
PN1342
Everybody's safety - when you're doing that course I assume you're paid by Chemtrans?---Yes.
PN1343
Is Chemtrans a good company to work for?---Chemtrans is an excellent company to work for. They're very stringent on their training.
PN1344
So that's good?---I think so. I think it's a necessity.
PN1345
Why?---Dangerous goods, since I've been doing dangerous goods, there's not many drivers about willing to take on the dangerous goods bulk driving because they find the - what you have to go through, the conditions, obtaining your licence, passing the strict medicals - our medicals are every 12 months at Chemtrans - some seem to get shied away for not competent with the job. Most of the reasons is because they said the lack of pay. Why should I be doing this when I can be carting lollies for the same money?
PN1346
Do you get paid the same as someone carting lollies?---Pretty much the same, probably less in some cases.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1347
And do you know what award you work under or do you have an enterprise agreement or- - -?---Yes, we have an EBA, but we're just under the normal TWU EBA agreement and there's just the normal Transport Workers Award.
PN1348
So the normal TWU EBA agreement, so you would be paid about 100 bucks more than the award?---I'm not sure. No, I don't think it would be that much. We do get an appearance allowance.
PN1349
An appearance allowance?---To keep your truck clean, keep your equipment good, within yourself, clean shaven, nice and presentable, clean clothes for the customers.
PN1350
How much would the appearance allowanced be?---$10.
PN1351
$10 a day or - - -?---A week.
PN1352
A week - you said in your witness statement in paragraph 7, the last sentence, you did a dangerous goods driving course. What was the dangerous goods driving course?---I represented DECCA at Shepparton. It was a defensive course and - - -
PN1353
Was that specific to dangerous goods?---No, actually it wasn't. I just realised what you've said there, yes, we were sent to DECCA up in Shepparton to do a defensive dangerous - defensive - - -
PN1354
A defensive driving course?--- - - - driving course, sorry.
PN1355
How long did that take?---It would have been two days.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1356
Two days, and did the company pay you whilst you were up there?---Yes.
PN1357
Did they pay for the defensive driving course?---Yes.
PN1358
You also said that you have annual medicals, so you have to go and see the doctor annually and you pay for a medical?---Yes. You have to go to the doctor every 12 months. It's company policy and the company pays. The company pays actually while you're there to do it, and it pays you to go.
PN1359
And when was the last medical you had?---The last medical I had was January.
PN1360
And that's a pretty thorough medical?---Yes. It's exactly the same medical you have - Chemtrans medical is exactly the same medical you have as you would apply for a dangerous goods licence.
PN1361
And does Chemtrans give that medical to all their drivers?---All the drivers and staff as well.
PN1362
And staff as well, so even if you're not driving dangerous goods - driving a vehicle carrying dangerous goods - you have to have a medical?---Only the hands on staff and workshop because as you're working on these tankers as well even though they've been purged and cleaned they just like to make sure that they're not harmed or exposed plus they ..... if do have that problem we may get to a particular customer site and find out we have got a damaged hose or a fitting that doesn't comply with their connections so we have to ring up and get the workshop guys to run one out to us, you know, before we can discharge a load.
PN1363
So the workshop guys do a dangerous goods course?---No.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1364
They come and help in - - - ?---Actually, two of our workshop personnel, yes, they are - their articulated licence and dangerous goods licence. The other three in the workshop usually stay in the workshop. The other two - and most of the accident and emergency response would have been all called out.
PN1365
So if you had an incident what - the first thing you would do is to ring back to Chemtrans. You have a mobile phone in your truck or something?---Yes, you do, but they must be switched off.
PN1366
But you can turn them on and use them if you need to?---No. It's - no, no. We're not allowed to use mobile phones - mobile phones, lighters, any spark obviously the full carting - - -
PN1367
You have a mobile phone in the truck?---Yes, the mobile phone in the truck is fixed but they are to be switched off and the agreement says that all these places to make sure they are switched off. Most of these places where we do load at we have to - the trucks have an isolation switch to the batteries which will isolate the power from the batteries to go anywhere further than the batteries so the isolator switch will be put in the off position where there is no power at all to the truck, so you've got to take off your mobile phone, regardless, but it's company policy and it's also the customers and receivers' policy that lighters, cigarettes, pagers, cameras, anything like that, has to be handed in. We do get audited by companies from time to time - go through our PPS file. We do carry torches in the truck - they would be intrinsically safe torches - and we have to comply with their rules and regulations.
PN1368
So, your mobile phone is off at all times. If you have an accident or an emergency are you allowed to turn it on and use it?---No. That's probably debatable because if you're in a fast 3 area, fast 3.1, definitely not, fast - same as an inflammable area or a high risk area. Dow Chemicals do allow you in some parts of their plant.
PN1369
Let's just say you were on the highway and you had an accident, how would you notify the emergency services?---You would have no choice.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1370
So, you're not supposed to have it on but at the end of the day sometimes you might need to use common sense?---Yes, but during transit there is no - you're not allowed to ring up your mate in the other truck and say "How's it going?" and stuff like that. It is just for use only for emergency or instructions from your supervisor.
PN1371
How do you get instructions from your supervisor if the phone is not on?---I'm talking about while in transit.
PN1372
While in transit, okay, whilst in transit you can have it on?---Yes.
PN1373
But once you go into a chemical site, okay - - -?---Yes, when you go -when we are running, delivering, we already know what we - we've been issued our paperwork and what the requirements are so - - -
PN1374
So, it's when you are in a defined area - Dow Chemicals or Huntsman - you're not allowed to have the phone off the hook, but when you're coming out the gate and you're on the highway or on the public roads you can have the phone on?---That's right, not hand-held mobiles, but the ones that are fixed in the truck.
PN1375
It is illegal to drive whilst you're talking on the phone, holding it to your ear. So Chemtrans have a fairly thorough and detailed in-house training system?---Yes. Chemtrans is regarded as a very high standard in their training. They are very, very safety conscious of their workers, employees.
PN1376
This applies to the people in the workshop and everyone else as well?---One hundred per cent.
PN1377
They would all do the same course?---Maybe not office staff, as the women in the office accounts, etcetera. Management definitely does.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1378
So when you turn up to work you get some paperwork given to you, and if you're doing a dangerous goods load, what is that paperwork? Is that the shipping documentation?---It would be. It would be the ..... paperwork. Most of the customers we pick up from have their own paperwork when you arrive on-site. We will get what we call a consignment - Chemtrans consignment set of paperwork with multiple copies ..... one on the completion of weighing and your times, weights, product, quantity of the product.
PN1379
Is that the shipping documentation that clearly has got that under the dangerous goods regulations?---When we get - no, that would be - that is the Chemtrans paperwork.
PN1380
Okay?---.....
PN1381
Yes?---When we arrive on-site to load we will get Orica's, or Huntsman's papers, whatever and that will have their MSDs in them, the material safety data sheets, the product. That will also have a certificate of analysis of the product, that is basically for the receiver to make sure it ..... information which are tested anyway. Weighbridge dockets, volumes and the product, that's basically most of the paperwork there.
PN1382
And once you are loaded, do you go and then put your placard on the truck and trailer or - - - ?---Once we're loaded, sometimes we will put ..... time allowed, but the truck is not to be moved until the placards are on that truck, corrected, and the operators will stand there until they're on. If there is incorrect placarding the truck will not move.
PN1383
And how do you know whether the placarding is correct or not?---By experience myself, but if I have any doubts the actual Chemtrans paperwork has got all that information on it about placarding, right to UN numbers ...... consigned.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1384
So it tells you which placard needs to be put on your truck and stuff like that?---That's correct.
PN1385
..... have been doing this for I think over 10 years - no, you've been working at Chemtrans for 4 years - 3 or 4 years, I think you say - - - ?---It's coming - it's actually just coming up 3 years now.
PN1386
About 3 years. So you are pretty confident in the placarding. If you were a bit confused you can check the Chemtrans paperwork?---Yes.
PN1387
Is that ever wrong?---Never.
PN1388
Never wrong?---No. It's also - the paperwork that's issued by the receiver - or not by the receiver sorry, by the customer sending the product out - they also give you a sheet with the UN numbers and the correct placarding. Sometimes we might have a load of - for an instance an acetone load, yet it might be a special order for a customer who has ordered that and they want a different grade of acetone, so it may have a sub-risk, so that will tell us what they're putting ..... might be storing ..... mixed in with that acetone, like another solvent. So that will have a sub-risk on its own, so then we have to change and put a sub-risk sign on.
PN1389
That is based on the paperwork from the other company?---From the pick-up.
PN1390
Yes?---Okay.
PN1391
Do you know what your obligations are under the dangerous goods regulations, Mr Brown, as a driver?---Mostly, yes.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1392
What would they be?---To make sure everything is placarded correctly, make sure it loads in a safe manner, make sure that the weight - I'm not overweight ..... all the RTA rules, police rules, make sure that ...... PPE, the equipment needed in evacuation, such as a spill kit, right down to SCBA to emergency response, what to do in case of an emergency, train in first-aid, fire protection, fire - what to do in an emergency if it's an unusual emergency, what to do in the case of a breakdown. A spill, an incident and even with minor misses.
PN1393
Would you be concerned about being driving a truck illegally with your knowledge and experience?---Definitely, I would refuse to drive a truck.
PN1394
So you wouldn't get in a truck that wasn't registered or didn't have the right paperwork?---Definitely not.
PN1395
Okay, and you don't have to do that?---No.
PN1396
Have you ever been pinged by the police or the RTA or the WorkCover people?---No.
PN1397
Any of your colleagues at Chemtrans been prosecuted or fined?---I think they have but they might be like minor offences in their car, not in the trucks.
PN1398
Not in the trucks. They might have been booked by a speed camera?---Yes, or whatever in their cars.
PN1399
But nothing in the trucks?---Nothing in the truck.
PN1400
So you know very clearly what your obligations and rights are as a driver, in brief, has that changed much in the last 10 years?---Yes, I think it has.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1401
Well, 10 years ago would you have got into an un-roadworthy truck for instance?---No.
PN1402
You would have taken the wrong paperwork?---No.
PN1403
If a truck wasn't properly placarded, would you have driven it?---No.
PN1404
How would that have changed in that period of time?---It changed in the period of time which is changing even - it still change regularly now - is the knowledge of the new products. A lot of the old products we've been carting around for a long time, probably a lot of people are familiar with formaldehyde, dates back a long, long time, you know, and there is about five different grades of formaldehyde now. Some, a lower grade as in strength, some are a very high grade in strength. Some of them contain phenyl, some don't. So we have - if they're training in these products it's for customer requirements, if they're making up a resin or a product for a certain job, Huntsman's or the Orica's or ..... whatever, they will make that product specifically for that company and we have to be then brought up-to-date on what that new product is.
PN1405
Is that done by Chemtrans, or is it done when you do your induction, or a refresher course - - - ?---No, this will be done immediately if that new product that we are unfamiliar with, or even the company is unfamiliar with, that will be addressed immediately and - - -
PN1406
How long is that likely to take?---It could take up to an hour.
PN1407
An hour or so. Do they show you where to find it in the book and give you an emergency ..... ?---Yes.
PN1408
I'm not sure if this one is a CRPR1 ..... are you familiar with that type of document, Mr Brown?---I don't cart acids very often.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1409
I guess that is sort of the nature of the document, as distinct from what specifically hydrochloric acid by ..... Are you familiar with that?---Yes.
PN1410
So when you go - - -?---sorry, I think this book actually we used to have these all the time.
PN1411
Is that - - -?---Yes, it's a fairly good book. I don't know when it was last revised. This one says '97. I heard there was supposed to be one coming out in 2001 but I've yet to see it.
PN1412
So that makes it a lot simpler, does it not, the book?---It does. It's very helpful, that book, especially if you have got multi-load.
PN1413
Do you have to buy your own book?---No.
PN1414
The company buys it for you?---Yes, every vehicle has one of these, at job sites but the whole of it is easily - has clear regulations.
PN1415
Is there some road that you are restricted on driving?---Yes.
PN1416
How do you know about those roads?---We are told at work, instructed while workers are there, the company lets you know the routes which are informed to them when they consult the RTA, such as there's a ..... so as well we go in to that customer sites, they request that we use that route and for the time use the same route.
PN1417
So the operations manager or the fleet control says to you, now, Mr Brown, you are going from here to here. This is the route we want you to follow?---Yes.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1418
You follow that?---That's right.
PN1419
What would happen if you didn't follow it?---You would be disciplined. In any respect, the Department of Dangerous Goods list what parts we can't stop anyway, which is by law. We can't stop near any schools or public places, shopping centres, and I think it even goes down as far as residential areas. So we can't pull them and jump out and get out a hand, we would jump back in the truck and think we're on our merry way. That's quite illegal unless everyone knows, like the tunnel, the ..... tunnel and the Domain tunnel, we are not allowed to use that. There are a lot of roads we aren't allowed to use due to the case of incidents, maybe low power lines or - - -
PN1420
That is no different I suppose when you were a Cleanaway driver driving waste, some of the roads you were unable to use because of similar rules and regulars?---No, at Cleanaway we sort of use the own road.
PN1421
Did you have one armed bandits in those days?---No, no, I was on bulk lift.
PN1422
You were on bulk lift?---Bulk lift tanker, yes. Actually the rules there too, they were under the RTA would come into effect about schools and shopping centres, residential areas weren't mentioned. Maybe they have amended that rule, I'm not sure. That was a different award because we were under the Refuse Award.
PN1423
Do you do any packaged dangerous goods?---No.
PN1424
Currently bulk?---All bulk.
PN1425
Do you have any view on drivers who just cart a non-placarded package load, is that simpler than what you do?---Having not done that, the only way I could answer that is - I couldn't answer that question actually because I haven't done it.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR RYAN
PN1426
No further questions.
PN1427
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Gaynor?
PN1428
PN1429
MR GAYNOR: Good morning. Just by way of clarification, Chemtrans, do they do just dangerous goods or do they do general as well?---Just dangerous goods.
PN1430
Only bulk dangerous goods?---Mainly, yes. When I say mainly, Chemtrans is owned by a company called Heggies Bulk Haulage. They were heavily involved in similar work in Newcastle and they bought out Chemtrans off - it used to be owned by Insotech, a fertiliser, we still have got actually a lot of work for them. Chemtrans is a separate subsidiary of Heggies. At that point when ..... was in Newcastle BHP and they lost the steel mill and that side of the industry had a bad collapse. Here you said something like 500 trucks, tippers doing that work, those 500 trucks did the lot. So then they concentrated on their Chemtrans side of things. Our head office is in Sydney. We have one in Queensland and one in our Melbourne office. That's what I mean, they carted other stuff but that wasn't actually within the Chemtrans side of the company.
PN1431
So there's still fertiliser moved within the Heggies side?---Daily, yes.
PN1432
Is fertiliser classified as a dangerous substance?---Some of it is, some of it isn't, they carted a lot of ..... which if in a stable environment is quite harmless but subject to - it can become volatile, you know, things like that. But it is a very low risk.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1433
So is that in its non-volatile state, is it classed as a dangerous goods?---No.
PN1434
It is only when it is in a volatile state?---Yes, like you could say you have got a truckload, a pellet load of cartons of egg cartons or whatever, if that was put in somewhere and it caught fire, that is going to burn, paper or cardboard or whatever. This is sort of similar but it's stuff that probably would catch fire and that would burn.
PN1435
So do you have contact with the drivers who cart non-dangerous goods within the Heggies involvement? Do you rub shoulders with those guys in that trade?---Not really, dangerous goods, DG licence, and some might put their hand up to go and do the tipper work which is the pivot work and in-site tipper work.
PN1436
Do you do any of the tipper work?---No. No, I don't.
PN1437
You mentioned in your statement that you did interstate work, was any of that in a dangerous goods environment?---Yes.
PN1438
How long have you been in interstate with dangerous goods environment?---Off and on, I'm still doing it now.
PN1439
Are you?---Yes. Actually I went to - well, it was just interstate, I went to Albury yesterday.
PN1440
Okay?---I put the Non-HAZ up there which is I would have to agree on that with the manufacturers. It is classed as a non-hazardous. It is not listed in the book. It's a resin it contains for ..... and phenol yet we bring back waste water which is EPA load where you have to have an EPA licence as well, the truck and the tanker are EPA licensed to conform with regulations and that comes under a class 9 as a miscellaneous dangerous goods. But it is just for waste water which I find would be less hazardous than the product I take up, although the product I take up conforms with a non-hazardous product.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1441
The waste water, what are the requirements to waste water, are they as stringent as the requirements for what you cart most of the time?---I would say the waste water, yes, it is. It still, you know, is not to be stored, not allowed to go in drains but that is not a volatile, you know, it won't explode or anything like that whereas a lot of the other products we cart do. This is a waste product.
PN1442
With interstate work, would you have been doing the interstate ..... work prior to the sixth addition of the code as well as after? Are you familiar with the type of ..... I'm talking about there?---No, not really.
PN1443
The sixth code I think was introduced in 1988. Were you doing interstate dangerous goods then?---Yes, yes.
PN1444
How did you actually, prior to the code and prior to the previous codes, how did you actually know what the regulations were in each State and jurisdiction compared with what I understand was a uniformation of the code? How did you know that?---That's a good question because as the States do vary, from State to State, I think we were running up to Gladstone in Queensland where we would take two empty containers up there that had had cyanide waste from the mines just there at Gladstone. They were the miner bins and they were classed as a class 7 toxic and they used to go on the rail and apparently when they were on the rail, one of the bags had been left out in the rain and filled up with a bit of water. Now, this bag actually leaks out the back doors of the container and it was on the railway, on a carriage, and they have panicked. They have actually seen - it's actually cyanide, it's a cyanide waste and that caused a major response. When they found out and tested it all, it was just actually water. There was no product of cyanide coming out, but it gave them a hell of a fright. Now, that went on from there to road transport which I was doing. So I had to go up to Gladstone and take the boxes up which had been cleaned out, drop them there, and they would put two boxes loaded with these bag liners of cyanide waste on. I had already done my DG licence then because I was at Cleanaway at the time. I was working for Brambles Cleanaway. They had introduced not only the EPA licence for the prescribed waste, but also very dangerous with the licence.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1445
So how did you find out what the regulations were to get yourself on Melbourne to Gladstone?---Through the company.
PN1446
How many different sets of regulations did you have to work your way through to know what to do?---Two.
PN1447
Two sets of regulations?---When we started off, I'm pretty sure there was no EPA in Queensland, it was called a different name for it. It wasn't as stringent as the EPA. The trucks were registered EBA New South Wales and Victoria and we used to have an interstate EPA paperwork that allowed you to go from State to State.
PN1448
Would you say that the ..... of the code has made it easier for people having to travel interstate doing dangerous goods work, a whole set of regulations instead of two?---I'm not sure if it's made it easier, it depends like the - my main issue is the dangerous goods side of things. If I was carting the waste side of things that - that's another story again and I have done both, but the dangerous goods side of things I think any amendment should be made of any new products, new regulations come up, it - that's all for the benefit of not only the driver but for the community and well being of everyone else.
PN1449
Would it be fair to say that having to conform with one set of regulations nationally would be easier than having to conform to different sets of regulations as you travel through the country?---Yes, I think that would be a good idea, yes ..... regulations right throughout Australia.
PN1450
Yes, it would be a lot easier for drivers and companies?---Yes, because different States have different regulations and - - -
PN1451
Regulations, yes?---Yes, I think Victoria is the most stringent.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1452
You spoke before about the daily routine and I would just like to clarify a couple of points here, in terms of preparing the load and by that I mean getting the initial paperwork and also loading the vehicle, do you do that, you get the paperwork, as I understand, the shipping documents and then you load the vehicle, is that correct?---No, I supervise the loading and it's actually loaded by an operator.
PN1453
Right?---Which would be Orica's operator or Huntsman, whoever, they usually have an operator there. We - I get - for an example, I do a lot for ..... at Orica, View Park and it's done by a skully system loading, that's very similar to fuel vapour recovery, earth out every - the operator comes in, that's only - the only one place that we loaded, it's metered in apart from going through to Shell in that .....
PN1454
Does the extent to which you supervise a load vary between jobs and vary between the products and jobs and - - -?---They're all different.
PN1455
They are all different. So some times you would be involved in the loading, other times you just supervise, other times it could be something different?---Yes, we could load the same product, like the formaldehyde and I can deliver to three different places and they've got three different sets of regulations, so I stick to the most stringent one which is none of theirs, it's ours, the ones I've been trained with because it's - over the while - it's much safer for them - for them as well, plus we load, actually load out of different places too, not just Orica, we load all ..... chemicals as well, or we'll do transfer - transfer loads, like - and that's a completely different process again.
PN1456
So you said that once the vehicle has been loaded you then, I think, you said do a bit of an inspection and if there is any doubt about any of the aspects you refer to the - on your experience, or you refer to the documentation and I think Mr Ryan referred to before, in order to clarify any confusion you or anyone else might have about the appropriate placard and or any other requirement, is that correct?---That's correct.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1457
On the road, I guess the routine is pretty similar, you are in motion and you use all care and responsibility on the road, I guess that is a fairly consistent way of doing things, subject to the routes of course?---Yes.
PN1458
And what about the unloading at the other end, is that similar to the loading that some times you might be directly involved in the unloading and some times you may not be?---We're always directly involved with loading and unloading.
PN1459
Loading and unloading?---Yes.
PN1460
I thought you said before with loading it varies, some times you are, some times you supervise?---Yes, that's right, we always - sorry, I meant, we're there, we will be there to watch the stretch that they do but the operators know what they are doing, but if we think they're going to do something wrong and we're not happy about it well, have you know, say, well, look, we don't like to do it that way, can we do it this way or - - -
PN1461
So I'm just a bit concerned, when you talk about loading and unloading, are you talking about physically loading and unloading?---No, no.
PN1462
That is supervising?---Yes. Well, sorry, I thought you meant when you go to the customers and they load it, you just walk away and let them do it.
PN1463
No, okay?---No, we are there all the time.
PN1464
And that end is from what they would normally they would unload it, physically unload it and you supervise?---All the different places have got all difference procedures of unloading. Once you've been accredited at places and show that your - your capability we can actually hook up our hoses, put on our vapour recoverers, skully systems, ..... ground hogs whatever, get our PQ ready, have our signs ready on the truck because we know by the paperwork if it's a regular customer that we deal with, however, we do not touch any part of their loading equipment as far as valves, metering, switches anything like that.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1465
So it is mainly a supervisory role in making sure again that correct placards are on there and so sort of things?---Yes, exactly.
PN1466
Would you say that that would not only vary within the company, that the responsibility for duties would vary from job to job within your business. Would you think that that might also vary from company to company, that whether they are your direct competitors or other DG operators, would you think that there would be different permutations, and calumniations of all the responsibilities of them?---What I've seen, no, not really, not a great deal, most companies conform pretty good with the - the aspects of the safety and training and the knowledge of the process of unloading and loading.
PN1467
But the duties might vary and who does what might vary, not only between obviously within your own company, but between companies?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1468
Can I ask you in terms of the time you have been a dangerous goods licensed driver and a little bit more about what has actually changed in that time, has anything changed in terms of the risk associated with this work?---Not really. The risk is still there.
PN1469
I think you mentioned before that in terms of, if you like, a duty of care and in terms of the training, I think you mentioned before that really what has changed is that there are new products coming on board ..... and those new products, did I understand you correctly on that?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1470
Other than that - - -
PN1471
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just pause please? The whole of that question wasn't audible, Mr Gaynor, you will need to repeat it.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1472
MR GAYNOR: Sorry, your Honour. My question was - I guess, I put a proposition to Mr Brown, sorry - it was a question asking, other than the fact that there are new products my understanding from Mr Brown's answer to Mr Ryan was that not much else had changed in terms of training and everything, new product development that is the major change?---Product and unloading and loading equipment I guess you could say.
PN1473
Regarding the equipment, there is changes to the technology of the equipment?---Yes.
PN1474
Is that part of the change that you need to be familiar with in your training?---Any changes, yes.
PN1475
And what would be the purpose do you think of the changes in technology to the equipment?---The changes that - just like unloading points, and loading points, some times they might change them around. They might unload or load from different tanks where you might have to shift your vehicle from A to B, then you've got to make sure it's in a ..... area to start with, the company knows that that's the responsibility to be in a ..... area, in a safe area, with an access to a shower because you're - you're used to that one place where you're actually unloading and loading and you know because you've been inducted and you understand the full safety aspects of what goes on and what you need, where the showers are, where the means to response buttons are, where the phone are, who to let know of an incident, whatever and some times we do get changes around and put in different positions where would have to perform the same duty in an unfamiliar place. So we have to go through another complete orientation of that area to conform to, not only with - that is actually Chemtrans' policy, but to conform with the company's requirements plus the laws.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1476
Has any of the equipment become safer over your period of time as a dangerous goods driver?---Some has, some has a lot and the majority hasn't unfortunately. It's - we're still using the same old, same old that they were using probably way before I was - ever started doing it. The - I guess, one thing is the awareness is a lot greater amongst - it's not just the driver I'm talking about, we've got the guys that operate in the vicinity where you've got that product. A lot has, you know, including the operators, or anyone working in the plant that happens to be walking by or nearby or whatever, we try to cordon them off, or we put witches hats off if we think it's really like a phenol or something like that which - or we cart TDI which is tomulene diosocimate, it's a very volatile chemical. If it was breathed in it actually turns in to a urea, which is quite harmless, once it hits the atmosphere it reacts against water. So if you breathe this in without - not trained up or be PPE to the getting off, a step there, if someone might - a maintenance guy might be walking passed or something, the wind blows and an incident happens and he gets a mouthful of this stuff it's very dangerous. So we've got to be aware of - to let them people know and in a safe manner.
PN1477
The awareness safety, is that to do with the chain of responsibility probably that has come in to dangerous goods now that whereas all the parties in the supply chain now really need to know what their duties are and responsibilities are whereas that might not have always been the case, is that a correct - - -?---Yes, that - yes, I'd say that's correct. Most of them are pretty aware, they implement the inductions and their regulations and requirements and we - we actually practice ours to satisfy their needs and if we have got any improvements certainly we pass any improvements on to the customer.
PN1478
Can I ask you, were those improvements and awareness would that have reduced the risk associated with the job?---Possibly the loading and unloading of sites but, yes, if there's improvements there, but once you're out on the road with these dangerous products nothing has changed.
PN1479
The daily routine that we spoke about before, would you say that that has changed much over the time you have had a dangerous goods licence?---It hasn't changed very often, I'd say it's become more stringent and more thorough and more policed, if I could say.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1480
Is that a good or a bad thing?---I think it's a terrific thing.
PN1481
In terms of the other part that I would like to talk about with changes, the requirements in response to an emergency, have the requirements changed much over the last two years, for example, I think you mentioned in response to Mr Ryan's questions that there is some documentation that can assist the EPG, I think it was, so they are actually - as I understand it, there has been some paperwork develop which could assist in response to this?---Yes, that has helped a lot, the improvements have helped a lot with the DG codes and those involved with - - -
PN1482
What about the site prosecutions? I would like to read you a part of another witness statement if I could and just get your thoughts and response to this - excuse me while I find the right spot. If I may quote from this and just get your reaction to this:
PN1483
Over the past 10 years the code has changed. After the last update the fines and who they are applicable to have increased dramatically. There are more fines applicable to the driver. The code has made it clear what the driver has to do but we probably know more of what the consigner and vehicle owner have to do too. This has increased the responsibility because you know the fines are heavier and there are more inspectors on the road watching you.
PN1484
Would you agree with that statement?---I guess, now that the training responsibility laws would probably re-confirm that.
PN1485
In what way?---Well, in the old days it was always the driver, or the operator, it was their fault, rushing loads as we've explained that. Far - far too many truck accidents up the highways and I think it's a great thing but I think there could be even more done to it. One thing I think is a great thing is the chain of responsibilities, whereas, they're not just always putting the finger at the driver who has been told by his employer or whoever, you know: get that load up there, hurry. Them sort of things have come to a bit of a - well, hopefully, they will improve the whole system the way down.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1486
Is that because if it came down to prosecution then the right person in the supply chain would be prosecuted, rather than as you mentioned, it coming back to the driver all the time?---Well, I think, yes, the responsibility would be shared amongst those who instructed that driver. It's pretty self-explanatory I guess, the chain of responsibility would come in.
PN1487
You mentioned before that not many drivers are doing DG work. Can I ask you, do you think the fact that the whole issue of prosecution has sort of been increased has had a part to play in that?---No.
PN1488
So what is the part to play in that?---I think it boils down to money, wages.
PN1489
So what has changed?---Nothing.
PN1490
Nothing has changed. I think you mentioned before the responsibility - - - ?---Sorry, I thought you meant all the - as far as the wages go we're on award rates and you know, maybe just a bit over the award and that's it, carting dangerous goods.
PN1491
So what has changed to make you think that that should change?---We've been - this has been bought up time and time and time again and it's always been unsuccessful, so we just think: you know, it's unfair to the licensing requirements. We need the medical requirements, we need the knowledge, the skills, the training and anyone ..... outlook on the job, the training as far as emergency response goes, right down to ..... through to courses to try to protect the public and other people and I just don't think there is enough rewards in it as far as the wages go to justify that when, like I said, I can be carting a truck full of eggs for the same money.
PN1492
Let's talk about that, if I may. Just to recap though, so the issue really is that it is not as though anything has majorly changed. It's just that this has been an issue for a long time?---A very long time and it doesn't seem to attract a class of driver which I compare with say a fuel driver, to have the initiative to go out and do a dangerous goods - to be a dangerous goods driver and be competent at it, and not be rewarded the same as like the fuel drivers do.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1493
On what basis do you say that not many drivers are doing DG is that there are dangerous goods just not being moved because of the lack of drivers? Any evidence of that?---That would depend on the market, I guess, but yes we've had drivers come in and new guys and they're just fresh out of their dangerous goods so they've you know give them a start, you put them in the ..... system, you train them up, you're taking them out there and you're starting them on the ..... and gradually bring them into the system, but it takes Chemtrans approximately 12 months before you're up to about four or five chemicals and - - -
PN1494
But the reality is though, is it not, that there are people like yourself moving dangerous goods?---Yes, well, I've been doing it a long time. I've also carted general freight for a hell of a long time before that. I was attracted to the dangerous goods because I went to Cleanaway and that's - they introduce the dangerous goods licensing to us and I was the first one there that - to get the dangerous goods and - because we had this job interstate and I became interested in that and unfortunately the two plants I work for shut down and there was about 50 made redundant, so I just went to Chemtrans.
PN1495
That is unfortunate. What was your general freight experience?---Paper, reels of paper. It was Morgan's when they were making paper, steel. Some Pantex.
PN1496
What would you - how would you define "general freight"?---Overall?
PN1497
Yes?---Pretty self-explanatory I guess, general freight could be anything you know like steel to kegs of beer to packaged goods to cartons to furniture to manufacturers in bulk, whatever.
PN1498
So it is anything other than "dangerous goods"?---Yes, I'd say that, yes.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1499
You are saying that in terms of skill and responsibility, nothing outside of dangerous goods warrants, or is similar to the dangerous goods requirements?---No, I disagree on that. I disagree on that. I think the - all drivers, regardless of their general - oil carters, dangerous goods carters, fuel carters, gas carters, whatever they are, I think they all deserve a greater respect for their knowledges. Ninety per cent of these incidents that happened are on the road, regardless of what they're carting so until I've got full appreciation for whatever you're carting - - -
PN1500
Yes?---I'm not knocking - I've got utmost respect for all the drivers there. Where the dangerous goods is - to me it's a field on its own.
PN1501
I think in paragraph 25 you say:
PN1502
There is considerable difference between the work of a general freight driver and a dangerous goods driver.
PN1503
I'm just wondering under most circumstances, how you define "general freight" a general freight driver, and I think are you accepting that that is anything other than dangerous goods is a "general freight driver" in your definition?---Excuse me, "general freight" could be a range of things from ..... right down to steel, to ..... to loads of steel that are forked on, or other palletised - - -
PN1504
Are you aware of any codes of practice that might apply in any sections of the transport industry other than dangerous goods?---I think there is codes of practice that cover the whole - every one has got a section I think.
PN1505
So when you say "general freight" would you accept that there are different sections within the industry, some of which have other codes of practice?---I'd imagine so, yes. I'm pretty sure they would have, definitely, some sort of code of practice or - - -
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1506
Would you accept that if there are codes of practice in those sections then perhaps they have higher standards then - some may have higher standards than other sections of the industry?---And again - no, I'm saying once you're out on the road as a driver I respect all drivers, regardless of general freight, dangerous goods, or like I said before.
PN1507
So when you are on the road everyone is the same - to the high standard that you require?---Yes, well, no one wants to go out there and be in an accident or do anything illegal. Things do happen, I know that. However, I treat things on their merits, like fuel, dangerous goods, gas, all these sort of things, as we're all the same, but the dangers of carting them particular products are a higher - create a higher risk.
PN1508
Than any other section of the industry?---Yes.
PN1509
At the same time you understand that there are codes of practice that do apply in other sections of the industry?---I'm not sure, but I would imagine there would be.
PN1510
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that a convenient time, Mr Gaynor?
PN1511
MR GAYNOR: Yes, your Honour.
PN1512
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will adjourn until 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.00pm]
RESUMED [2.20pm]
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1513
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where are we? Mr Shearer I think.
PN1514
MR SHEARER: I think Mr Gaynor still has one or two questions.
PN1515
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Gaynor, okay. Mr Gaynor?
PN1516
MR GAYNOR: Mr Brown, I think we left before lunch we were talking about what the definition of the general freight industry is and we were talking about whether they have other sections of the industry have codes or other standards that might take it above what you might call the base within the industry. Two questions I have for you, based on your previous employment. Did the waste industry have any code of practice that you are aware of?---Yes.
PN1517
How did that code of practice apply?---Very similar to the dangerous good code of practice. It was governed by the EPA which incorporated the filling out of documentations like EPA documentation to fix up - to pick up supply. It's also segregation of loads, what goes with what, what can't go with what, different tankers, different products, different tankers compatibility, whereas acids and some alkalis couldn't go in a steel tank, they had to be a lined tank or stainless tank and vice versa, some could go in aluminium tanks and unlined tanks, etcetera.
PN1518
And this code was outside of the Dangerous Goods Code?---This was the - - -
PN1519
Separate to?---An EPA, yes, separate.
PN1520
And I understand you also did driving for a paper company? Did I understand you correctly before?---No, I drove for a company that carted paper. It was - - -
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1521
And were there any codes of practice that applied in any aspect of that business?---Not then.
PN1522
Has there since, do you know of, in that?
PN1523
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Gaynor, would you just pause for a moment please? I'm very sorry about that. Yes, continue.
PN1524
MR GAYNOR: Thank you, your Honour.
PN1525
Mr Brown, I think my question was I think you mentioned that with the company that you carted paper for, at the time you were employed there was no particular code and my question, it was are you aware of any code coming into that industry since your employment there?---I'm not sure about that. That was 25 years ago and it was - I grew up in a family in transport and it was a learn by experience with other drivers as to the load processes and different ways to load it, tarping, load of paint, etcetera.
PN1526
Can I ask you, Mr Brown, in terms of the work that you do now in dangerous goods and of dangerous goods would you consider that to be the sort of high level, if I can put it that way, of dangerous goods if I was to say the lowest level of dangerous goods application might be just incidental packaging, the highest level of dangerous goods would be in bulk and it would certainly - would you consider yourself up there in the highest level of dangerous goods transport?---Yes, I would.
PN1527
Why would you consider yourself there?---Because the chemical - excuse me, the nature of the chemicals we can't. The risks involved, not just for myself but for the community and the equipment needed to be used and the knowledge of dealing with such dangerous chemicals and substances.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1528
And would your knowledge give you any basis upon which to comment on their - from the top class of dangerous goods where you were, right through to packaging, I mean is there a big variation between what you do and say the people that do do basic packaging of dangerous goods?---I don't do packaged goods. I've said before I've never done packaged goods. However I do realise that they do have to have the knowledge, the licences, etcetera, the training, the segregation, the placarding, or the safety requirements as such. However I think the difference is is where we are loading actually bulk, just pumped into the truck via pumps, monitored. Sometimes we have to use dipsticks to measure our loads where we have to wear PG and breathing apparatus, whereas I think the majority or I imagine the majority would be like palletised or in containers or cartons etcetera.
PN1529
And within the definition of bulk dangerous goods would you think that there is a difference between what you do and perhaps other types of bulk dangerous goods in terms of risk and responsibility?---Could you repeat that please?
PN1530
Within the definition of bulk dangerous goods would you agree that there is a difference in the type of dangerous goods work you do and perhaps other types of bulk packaged goods?---Yes, I'd agree, yes, to a point, yes, to a point. Well, some of the things if you put - if I can use an example like fuel, petrol. Some of the goods we cart are a lot higher flashpoint and a lot more volatile.
PN1531
And I will give you another example of where it is not a liquid?---Gas.
PN1532
Perhaps a packaged product, a solid product in a bulk format. Would you consider that that is in the same league of the work you do?---We don't cart anything that's in a solid form bulk.
PN1533
So to comment on whether that was in the same league as your work?---I don't know of any. I've never heard or don't know of any dangerous goods that's in actually solid form but no doubt there probably is.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1534
I will ask the question if I may. You mentioned earlier I think when Mr Ryan was asking you questions that there is a customer induction program that takes place. Is that correct?---That's correct.
PN1535
Would you have been able to work for Chemtrans to that customer if you had not been able to undertake that induction program?---No.
PN1536
Thank you. That is all, your Honour.
PN1537
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Mr Shearer?
PN1538
PN1539
MR SHEARER: Mr Brown, what class of vehicles do you drive? Is it a semi-trailer or - - -?---I drive an articulated.
PN1540
Articulated?---So I'm multi combination.
PN1541
Multi combination?---Not multi combination, sorry, heavy combination.
PN1542
Heavy combination. So semi-trailers?---Semi-trailers, yes.
PN1543
Thank you?---Yes.
PN1544
What max did you operate at?---42½.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1545
So you are within statutory levels?---Yes. At the moment we're going through fatigue management and with also mass.
PN1546
Right. So at some point in the near future you will have to comply with the fatigue management requirement and also mass management requirements?---That's correct.
PN1547
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Shearer, you are fading in and out. Will you ensure you are close to a microphone please?
PN1548
MR SHEARER: Would you like me to repeat the last question, your Honour?
PN1549
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, please.
PN1550
MR SHEARER: Okay. So in the near future your company and you will be participating in a mass management program and a fatigue management program?---We're in the midst of incorporating that at the moment, yes.
PN1551
Do you understand that those programs apply to a wide range of transport operations and not just dangerous goods?---Yes.
PN1552
Okay, thank you. Is your company accredited in any other schemes apart from fatigue and mass and dangerous goods? Are there any other schemes that the company is accredited to?---Not that I know of as far as official accreditations go.
PN1553
Okay, all right?---But I'm not sure about that.
PN1554
All right. In your role as a dangerous goods driver do you have to comply with the driving hours regulations?---Yes.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1555
Do general freight operators have to comply?---Yes.
PN1556
So there's no difference between you and general freight on that front?---No, the hours of work and driving hours are regulated and that's across the board.
PN1557
What about occupational health and safety laws? Are they pretty much the same?---I would say ours would be a higher standard. I myself as the OHS - excuse me, OHS officer for our depot at level 1 and that's wide - that's a lot wider and broader aspect due to the nature of the beast you could say with the chemicals.
PN1558
So under the OH&S laws where the basic responsibilities are established, your company has to have a certain level of training because of the products you cart?---Correct.
PN1559
But the base level of OH&S applies across the board?---Yes.
PN1560
Okay, thank you. The general road traffic laws, are there any apart from the dangerous goods requirements are there any differences between your company's operation and general freight?---The only difference we have is we're not - we are not allowed to park as was mentioned before within schools, shopping centres, residential areas unless it's an emergency or breakdown. We have designated routes and we have actually a driver awareness program the drivers get put through every 12 months and we're updated and made us aware of the changes of any laws, travelling around roundabouts, we have to be brought up to date and know the ullage requirements which is by law. I think that's - - -
PN1561
Yes, thanks?---Everything else, plus the ullage requirements and that's a general update on safety and things like that that the company's implemented.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1562
Okay. The general roadworthiness rules apply equally to your company and operation as they do to all other companies?---Yes, definitely very stringent.
PN1563
Are you aware of the National Heavy Vehicle Accreditation Scheme for roadworthiness?---Yes.
PN1564
You are aware - - -?---I think Chemtrans actually are in the - I'm trying to think - on RTA we had the accreditation on the prime-movers.
PN1565
The roadworthiness of them?---Yes.
PN1566
That is a national heavy vehicle accreditation scheme run by the Government and Chemtrans is in that, is it?---Yes.
PN1567
The mass management scheme which you were going to do is also an EHBAS scheme?---It is not done - introduced at the moment.
PN1568
No?---But they are going through the process of it at the moment.
PN1569
What about load restraint laws?---Yes, we have got load restraint laws and of - of late, full protection.
PN1570
The same laws apply to the rest of the industry as well?---As we cart iso's, these are carted on a drop deck trailer which also have to be covered by Work Safe, cart the different classes which should be equipped with all the safety gear. They must be all intrinsically safe with their own, like, fire extinguishers, signage, etcetera and the twist locks lockable in, make sure that that is their road restraint as far as the load being and the iso's themselves have to be fully secured and sealed.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1571
So if one day when you had time, you sat down with a piece of paper and a pen and drew up a list of all the things that you have to comply with as a heavy vehicle driver and as a dangerous goods driver, would it be fair to say that if a general freight driver did the same thing, what the two of you would end up with is a fairly big list of a wide range of regulatory requirements that you both ave to comply with and on top, you have got some additional dangerous goods requirements?---That's correct.
PN1572
Would that amount of difference in terms of the total picture, is it double or is it an important but relatively small difference?---I think it's quite a huge difference.
PN1573
In importance?---Very much importance, much higher.
PN1574
So you think there are a lot more rules and regulations or are they just more important?---It's rules and regulations we have to abide to but it's for the safety aspect as the main issue.
PN1575
Do you talk a lot with other dangerous goods drivers and other drivers within the industry?---Yes, I do.
PN1576
From that knowledge that you get from them, are you of the opinion that there's a lot of variation throughout the industry?---Yes, there is.
PN1577
Including within dangerous goods, different companies doing a lot of different things?---Difference in variation would be product wise but as far as procedures go, no, there's not a great lot of difference.
PN1578
So all companies have all the same safety equipment and procedures or do they have a minimum and some have better?---I can't answer that not actually working for a different lot of companies so I can only go by word of mouth of other drivers I've spoken to but in general overall, they are pretty well trained up and there seems to be a sort of minimum standard, if you like, and I think most DG companies are a lot above that standard.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1579
In answering one of Mr Gaynor's questions about that variation, you said I think it was this effect, that you used the most stringent procedures that are available which happen to be ones that the company has developed and you have been trained in. Is that right?---That's correct.
PN1580
So those more stringent procedures used in your company are something that are even better than and over and above the regulatory requirements?---In some cases perhaps, maybe not against other transport companies because I'm not familiar with their requirements or trained, whatever. I've only got a brief idea of what other drivers have told me. However, I think we extended the safety requirements to some sites where we actually pick up and deliver.
PN1581
That is a matter of company policy to really be the high stuff?---Their company's requirements or the customer's requirements on them, I think our company current standards and level of safety is higher than a lot of the places we go to.
PN1582
You also said to one of Mr Gaynor's questions that, if I summarise, the risk has probably come down during the loading and unloading task over the years because the systems have improved but the risk out on the road has not really changed. Is that right?---That's correct. The risk hasn't come down in unloading and loading a great deal. There's still a lot of the old - still done the old way. So that is only pretty - well, it's minimal, I wouldn't say it's of a big effect. However, the road side of it.
PN1583
Yes. So the risks on the road haven't changed so they are not any greater, they just haven't really improved very much?---Well, the roads - as we all know, the roads have changed for the better for the community and for the drivers. That is why designated routes are kept as such which is minimising - we try to minimise taking our products in built up areas and over the populated areas, try to keep away as much as possible.
PN1584
Fair enough. The medical examination that you do, you are aware that that is an examination against a National commercial heavy vehicle medical standard?---Yes.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1585
Are you aware that that standard is used by anyone else in the industry apart from dangerous goods?---I'm not sure whether they do or not.
PN1586
You said in your statement at paragraph 8 that a fuel driver will usually only cart one type or class of dangerous goods. I will need to understand a much broader range of dangerous goods and understand a greater range of individual products. How many different products do you cart?---I'm guessing, approximately 50.
PN1587
About 50, that is quite a few. How common would that be in the bulk dangerous goods industry? How many drivers would be carting that many different products?---I would say the majority of bulk drivers.
PN1588
The majority, okay. Does the range of products vary greatly between companies?---Yes, they do.
PN1589
It does. Do some companies specialise and others cart a lot of different products?---A lot of other different companies cart from different chemical manufacturers and we take a different product but overall they are all very similar. They all go into separate categories.
PN1590
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Shearer, may I ask you just to pause for a moment? I need to look at something that is said to be urgent within the panel that needs to be attended to.
PN1591
MR SHEARER: Certainly, your Honour.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1592
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But just in the very short term, I will decide whether I even need to leave the bench, but just give me a moment, would you? Yes, I need to leave the bench, probably only for 5 minutes. The Commission will adjourn for that time.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.36pm]
RESUMED [2.42pm]
PN1593
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry about that.
PN1594
MR SHEARER: Your Honour, Mr Brown is just out at the present moment.
PN1595
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, sorry. That is fair enough. Do you want me to leave the bench again? Mr Shearer?
PN1596
MR SHEARER: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Brown, just another couple of questions. You mentioned - and it was raised before but I just want to pursue it a little further - you mentioned that as one of your points in paragraph 18 that dangerous goods drivers are unable to use - that is certainly not in dispute. Are you aware of any other sections of the industry or types of work carting dangerous goods where there are work restrictions?---Yes.
PN1597
Can you tell us of those?---Petrol cars, gas cars, anything as far as tunnels go but maybe they have got their own designated routes.
PN1598
What about the operation of B double vehicles?---Yes. It must be permanent to travel down certain roads.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1599
They have to follow the gazetted routes for permits?---Yes.
PN1600
There are a very large number of B doubles and other restricted vehicles in the industry?---Yes.
PN1601
A lot of them don't cart dangerous goods?---Yes.
PN1602
When you do get in to the mass management program, are you aware that part of that would be restrictions because there are only certain routes that you would be allowed to drive on?---Yes. I guess I'm aware of that, I'm not quite - but we are just starting to go through all these things.
PN1603
Of course. So is it fair to say that issues like compliance with route restrictions and quite a number of the things you have to do also apply across the industry to other sectors that are not dangerous goods but you do have some special features that apply to you as dangerous goods?---As far as not being a dangerous good, no, I'm not aware of that. Could I go back? You asked me a question before about I said all the tanker drivers just cart one sort of a product.
PN1604
Yes?---I would like to note - I wrote that down and the fuel passes as petrol or a diesel or an LPG gas. I think they are about the three major hazard products that they cart. There may be others of a different petro-chemical company with products that are carted. That is why that was stated then and has the one product but I would just like to correct that and state that indeed diesel one has the fastest non-hazardous of 30XY. Petrol definitely is and LPG gas is.
PN1605
You probably say it is a lot less than the 50 products you cart?---Correct.
PN1606
Yes, okay. About the training and the retraining that you do every 3 years, do you find that useful?---Yes, very much.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHEARER
PN1607
Is it useful - for what reason?---For new legislation which has been brought in, new rules, new regulations, getting back to the ..... again if the ..... have changed, as everyone knows from the last 12 months or so. The amount of package - what they class as packaged to bulk has changed, different laws concerning different speeding could be introduced for dangerous goods which I have heard may come into effect. I'm not sure.
PN1608
What about refreshing memory on - - -?---A refresher, yes, we do a refresher to bring you up to scratch and make sure that you are still fully aware of the rules and regulations, signage, etcetera, paperwork.
PN1609
If you think about the drivers in your company, the dangerous goods drivers, what is your view about how well they maintain their knowledge between 3 yearly refresher courses?---Very good.
PN1610
Very good, okay, thanks very much?---thank you.
PN1611
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Shariff?
PN1612
PN1613
MR SHARIFF: Mr Brown, you seem to have a fairly good knowledge of the products that you cart. Would you agree that you have got the level of knowledge because you are involved in loading and unloading?---Yes, certainly.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1614
So would it be fair to say that if you weren't involved in loading and unloading, or supervising with loading and unloading of those products, you may not need to have when you .....?---No, I wouldn't agree with that. I think the unloading and loading of the products and the use of special equipment that we use, PP etcetera, is I've got a great knowledge to learn and to know. When you're out on the road you still have the same responsibility as you have that product on that you're in-charge of in that vehicle and if there happens to be an incident or an accident, or a spill, or whatever, the training we have received by learning the correct PPE in training that you wear what we call, a make and a break situation, where PP is worn to a lot of products - your Honour, "make and a break" is making - is a connection to the vessel to be loaded, breaking it is the disconnection of the loading apparatus to a vessel and the knowledge you pick up there and it's like putting a seat belt on in your car, you're just so used to doing that sort of thing it's routine and if you're out on the road and there is an incident you know the routine. You know where your gear is, you know where your PP is. You know where your signs are and you know what to do to try and minimise any effects.
PN1615
You have been involved in incidents - or in yards where you don't load or unload, or you don't supervise the loading or unloading?---Very rarely that does happen.
PN1616
In those instances, what are your roles?---There's been a pre - for an example, like a pre-load. There's been a pre-loaded vessel in the yard. Our depot has a 24-hour storage licence for dangerous goods. If the product is loaded at, for example, 5 o'clock and it can't be delivered to the customer because they're shut for the night until 7 am the next morning, we're notified usually - even if we've gone home, they ring us at home, or we start work earlier. We usually start work - our hours - our span of hours are between 5 and 7 - 5 am in the morning until 7 at night. Normal starting time is 7 am, where we conduct our pre-trip inspection. We're given our paperwork. We hook up to the tanks or trailers accordingly, however, such should there be a - what we call a "stick up load" that is held over from the night before, the driver is instructed to deliver that load to the customer, what it is, so all the appropriate paperwork, the customer's paperwork, everything will all be supplied to the driver and the delivery will go ahead.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1617
So in those cases where it has already been loaded - pre-loaded as you put it - your job is effectively a checking one. You've got to check everything?---Check everything.
PN1618
When you check everything the first thing you do is you get your consignment documents, correct?---Correct.
PN1619
You then conduct a pre - a pre - an inspection check of the - - - ?---A pre-trip inspection.
PN1620
And look at your consignment documents and you check that things have been placarded properly?---Yes, so everything conforms.
PN1621
And check your - to see if your fire extinguisher and your protective equipment is where its meant to be?---Yes.
PN1622
Then you are on your way?---No.
PN1623
What do you do?---Then we make sure that the tanker, or isotone, whichever it may be - road tanker, sorry - we have - - -
PN1624
..... ?---No, we have ..... that's a different issue with all of our tankers are regularly serviced, annually checked by experts ..... whatever, that's all run on a roster - not a roster sorry - on a spreadsheet that's available for every driver there, but you check your load to make sure no one has tampered with the load. Make sure the seals are still intact, make sure that your quick shuts are shut, your valves are shut, your caps are on. You put your full protection on and you get up top and you actually check that the main lids are shut and that any other valves are shut up top so it's ..... - - -
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1625
That would be part of your inspection check as you are walking around the truck, you are making sure all these things are in order?---Yes, but this is - if you've done - even if I've loaded that - I may have loaded that particular load the day before and I'm too late to deliver that night and I'm going to take that load the next morning, well, I still carry out the full check because I don't know who has - may have jumped over the fence or if it's leaked or there's something wrong, so it's company policy, they must be re-checked prior to leaving the yard.
PN1626
When you are supervising the loading and unloading, for example at a customer's site, what is your role then? What are you doing when you're supervising?---Usually when I'm supervising - as we go to most customers, most customers know the operators. Might have a different operator every day because of shift rotations, etcetera. However, their procedures - their company procedures - I abide by their company procedures. I also abide by Chemtrans procedures which mainly involve public places a lot more time. Some places you go to they don't even require that the isolator switch be switched off, but if it's a Class 3 or any flammable, or anything of a sub-risk, I always ask permission, or warn that I will be turning the isolator switch off. Sometimes I might get an answer: what for? I just give the basic reasons. It's - things like that is where my supervision comes in, however, I advise all the operators and supervisors at the delivery points and pick-up points of their requirements as well, and if I'm not happy or feel that that is in a safe manner, I will refuse to continue until a supervisor is brought into attendance which, luckily, it has only ever happened to me once and that was a new operator so - who had not been correctly trained.
PN1627
Those operators - sorry, those customers, they have obligations under the dangerous good code and regulations too, don't they?---Correct.
PN1628
So they do everything correctly and you monitor them, and you feel they have done everything correctly. Once again, what you then do is you do an inspection check of the vehicle, check the consignment forms, you make sure everything is placarded and you check the seals, you check the top, you check all of that and then you drive, correct?---Correct.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1629
Thanks for that, I have nothing further.
PN1630
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Ms Field?
PN1631
PN1632
MS FIELD: Mr Brown, just one question. In point 10 of your statement you have said that it is necessary when you are renewing your DG licence to get a print out of any driving offences from ..... Can I ask you if there are different driving standards required of DG drivers when compared with general freight drivers, or drivers carrying placarded loads?---I'm not quite sure about that. That is the requirement under Work Safe.
PN1633
Yes?---WorkCover, that they be supplied with that and it's up to the Work Safe - if it comes under - I think they have - they have a number or a code for offence and if that code is against the company - against Work Safe's recommendation that the driver not hold a DG licence, you can be refused a licence.
PN1634
Okay. What sorts of road offences - do you know what sort of road offences would have been on the list?---I'd imagine excessive speeding, driving under the influence, you know things like that. Even probably just some minor things, if there is too many, or they've got too many points against them, I think they would refuse it, and also the companies do a check as well and there is some pretty - well, the same guidelines I guess as Work Safe requirements to the print out of your offences, if any.
PN1635
Thank you very much, that is all, your Honour.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN XXN MS FIELD
PN1636
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Duffin?
PN1637
PN1638
MR DUFFIN: I only have a couple of questions ..... The first is that Mr Gaynor asked - - -
PN1639
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You are not audible - not audible, Mr Duffin.
PN1640
MR DUFFIN: Mr Gaynor asked you a question in relation to codes of practice by other industries. Do you recall him asking about the waste management industry and codes of practice there?---Yes.
PN1641
Do you know of - whether there are any allowances in relation to the waste management industry that general freight drivers would not be entitled to?---I'm not sure about what they class as an allowance, however the award rates are much greater than the dangerous goods. As we have no award for dangerous goods as such, it comes under the refuse - their rate of pay is a grade higher. But other than - - -
PN1642
So - sorry?---Their level of pay, sir, is a higher level of - we're under all that.
PN1643
In relation to a question Mr Shearer asked you, he asked you whether in relation to OH&S awards whether there was a base level across the board, in relation to the work that you do, is there anything in addition to the OH&S awards that you need to be aware of?---Only if there's any amendments - Chemtrans has what we call a DVSR reporting system, which every driver has a book to document - DVSR stands for Defective Vehicle and Site Report - so
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN RXN MR DUFFIN
if you have a defective vehicle, would it be the truck, the tanker, the trailer, the ISO or any part of your unloading or loading equipment, any - BP is not actually in this BP is a separate issue. That is a - as soon as something is wrong with your BP or it is being used or your BA or - that's addressed immediately. But the DVSR system is also affects sites. Now we could go to a site and unload products that may not have a bunded area, which is required by law, so we will DVSR that site. DVSRs are site reports, go directly to the management. If they are the truck, trailer and mechanical issue, that will go to the workshop manager. However, should it be a site report these are all gone to the management and it's addressed by management. We have had a lot of sites that we have DVSRed, due to bad access, not bunded, improper loading facilities, unsafe equipment, no safety showers as such, no inductions - you know - we think every receiving company that's receiving a dangerous good should have some sort of induction process or an evacuation or emergency procedure so we note those in DVSRs. If there's no water available or a hose or an alarm or notify someone - because by our standards we usually have someone with us at all times while discharging, the same as we do when we are loading, as we have an operator. We will not tolerate operators walking off, going out to have a cigarette or whatever, while we are discharging, otherwise we will shut down that discharging stop to a return and things like this go through this DVSR system which is acted upon by management.
PN1644
Both Mr Gaynor and Mr Shearer asked you a question in relation to - Mr Gaynor asked you a question in relation to whether standards varied from job to job and from company to company and Mr Shearer asked you a similar question in relation to the most stringent - whether your - Chemtrans operated on the most stringent basis. In relation to the sort of work you do in handling dangerous goods, is there a minimum standard across the board?---As in Chemtrans or overall?
PN1645
Overall, places you deliver to, receive from - that sort of thing?---I am happy to say probably 95 per cent. I would like to see 100 per cent, but there are the few places we do unload at and they have been DVSRed and we have refused to take there, so I don't know if other companies have taken up the work and delivered there, or what. Other companies comply with our requests.
PN1646
Chemtrans operates on a superior level to the dangerous goods code. Is that what you are saying?---I think they operate on a very very good astute system - the best I've worked for. I think, yes, they do - a very high standard.
**** BRUCE REGINALD BROWN RXN MR DUFFIN
PN1647
I have nothing further, your Honour.
PN1648
PN1649
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Duffin?
PN1650
PN1651
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Duffin?
PN1652
MR DUFFIN: Thank you, your Honour. Do you mind stating your name for the purposes of the Court transcript?---John Stormonth.
PN1653
Are you engaged as a sub-contractor with Toll at the present time?---I am.
PN1654
Have you made a statement in the relation to this proceeding?---I have.
PN1655
Do you have a copy of that statement there in front of you?---Yes.
PN1656
Have you read through it?---Yes.
PN1657
Is it true and correct in every particular?---There is a couple of things that I have them altered. Page 4 or 5, section 18 and it said, "Occurred" on the page 5, there was two of us, involved in that incident.
PN1658
So you and one other - - -?---One other driver.
PN1659
..... sir, and one other driver after (i)?---Yes. And then later on, there is section - page 8, section 36. On the bottom line, it says, "A green light will appear on the overhead panel". The green light appears on the road in front of the truck, not on the panel.
PN1660
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: On the rail?---On the road.
PN1661
On the road in front of the truck. Thank you?---Like an airport road.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XN MR DUFFIN
PN1662
MR DUFFIN: Is there any other changes?---Can't see any.
PN1663
PN1664
MR DUFFIN: No examination, your Honour.
PN1665
PN1666
MR RYAN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN1667
Who is your employer, Mr Stormonth?---Beg your pardon?
PN1668
Who is your employer?---Toll, Toll XPD.
PN1669
Toll XPD. You sub-contract to them?---I do.
PN1670
Are you a proprietary limited company?---I am.
PN1671
So what would the name of that company be?---Tapling Proprietary Limited.
PN1672
So you work for - - -?---Tapling.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1673
That company which then sub-contracts to Toll? Okay. And you have worked for Toll Mayne Nickless for around 23 years?---Correct.
PN1674
How long have you been working in Dangerous Goods?---In that period of time, 23 years.
PN1675
23 years. Has it changed much in 23 years?---Its changed a terrible lot.
PN1676
Could you tell us, has it changed in the last 10 years?---Yes.
PN1677
How has it changed?---The rules are getting stricter.
PN1678
What do you mean by that?---Well, responsibility is passed more on to us.
PN1679
Passed more on to you being a sub-contractor?---As a driver. I'm talking about as a driver. You go to a customer's premises now, once there was people there to load us, now we go to a customer's premises and its put back on us. We load ourselves.
PN1680
What type of product are we talking about?---Classes of acids, petro-petroleum products - for different petrol companies.
PN1681
Do you have a bulk dangerous goods licence, Mr Stormonth?---I do.
PN1682
When did you obtain that?---The exact year, I can't remember, but when they first came out, was a New South Wales dangerous goods licence, which we had to go and do a test for it up in Braybrook, and I can't remember the year, I can't state what year it was.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1683
Have you done a refresher?---Yes, got to a refresher once every 3 years.
PN1684
Every 3 years. And when was the last time you did a refresher course?---2 years ago.
PN1685
Has the refresher course changed much over the last few years?---Different rules change, which they bring to our attention, at the time. I can't exactly think straight off, but yes, that does change from year to year.
PN1686
In your witness statement, you talk about:
PN1687
Drivers must understand regulations to protect themselves against fines and criminal charges.
PN1688
Would you aware of what criminal charges?---Well, a few is leaving premises and say you left the top of the tank open, and you went along the road and people got sprayed with acid, you are on criminal charges, that sort of thing.
PN1689
As a result of your negligence?---Yes.
PN1690
Have you ever been involved in an accident or an incident in dangerous goods - leaving aside the one where you and the other driver commenced emergency response procedures, but when you have been out at client's premises, or have you ever been involved in incidents or - - -?---Yes.
PN1691
You have. Could you tell us about what happened?---I was unloading a particular product at Ballarat and the line - what we usually did - procedure, was pressurise the lines - are clamped, and I went to turn the tap off and as I bent down, because its plastic fittings, the plastic fitting exploded and I got covered in the product. I had my goggles and my uniform and everything, and as it blew up, it blew my safety hat off and I just grabbed the hose and put the hose straight on myself. They took me to hospital to make sure I was all right.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1692
How long ago was that?---About 18 months, 2 years ago.
PN1693
Was there another incident where you can recall?---The only incident I can recall involving myself, yes.
PN1694
Why did you react the way you did?---Natural action to get the product off you as quick as you can. You don't want it burning you.
PN1695
Did your dangerous goods help you in - - -?---I think it did.
PN1696
Now, how do you think it helped you?---Well, I knew pretty well what to do.
PN1697
Have you ever been prosecuted for breaching the Dangerous Goods Regulations?---No.
PN1698
Ever been fined?---No.
PN1699
Any of your colleagues ever been prosecuted or fined?---Not to my knowledge.
PN1700
Not to your knowledge. Even since it became much more stringent?---No, not to my knowledge, no.
PN1701
In paragraph 12 of your witness statement, Mr Stormonth, you talk about drivers trying to fill a freighter with respect to the transporting of dangerous goods, could you elaborate on how important - - -?---What paragraph?
PN1702
Paragraph 12?---What, the responsibilities that the driver is - higher on us now than ever was.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1703
Could you explain why you are making that statement?---Because when I was first employed, I was employed as a tanker driver, not a dangerous goods driver. Now, the word "dangerous goods" has become involved, and the products we cart we've been made more aware of them. You got to know how to handle them, and its virtually our responsibility. In the early days, you just put a load on and left and we were never really told how bad the stuff - the product us, or what we was carting.
PN1704
Now, when did that begin to change?---After the licensing started.
PN1705
After the licence - so that was 18 months - many years ago, wasn't it?---Yes.
PN1706
So that was a big change 18, 19 years ago?---As I said, I was employed as a tanker driver, not a dangerous goods driver.
PN1707
Was the tanker you were driving carrying dangerous goods?---Yes.
PN1708
So 18, 19 years ago when the licensing system came in, that's when there were big changes?---Every body became more aware of what we were doing.
PN1709
And since then, the Dangerous Goods Regulations and the training have simply codified what happened probably 17, 18 years ago. Would that be fair comment?---I would say so, yes.
PN1710
When you go and do your refresher course, who pays for that?---Tolls.
PN1711
Toll pays for that?---They actually pay for the course. I pay half of it in my Toll.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1712
You pay for some of your Toll?---Yes.
PN1713
The medicals that you have, who pays for them?---I pay for them.
PN1714
You pay for them. If you are carting dangerous goods, do you get paid extra money?---In relation to what? Extra moneys for what?
PN1715
If you are carting dangerous goods?---No, I get a flat hourly rate.
PN1716
If you do dangerous goods, do you get a loading on that hourly rate?---Yes, but carting - I mean, its not very much, but is a small over - yes.
PN1717
5 per cent?---About 98 cents an hour.
PN1718
98 cents an hour?---Don't quote me on that.
PN1719
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What should I make of that, Mr Stormonth?---I beg your pardon.
PN1720
What should I make of that? Its important for me to know? Have you got an EBA - no, you are a contractor. Yes?---Yes.
PN1721
So you have just got an arrangement between the corporate entity you are associated with and there is - yes, all right, I won't pursue that then. I understand.
PN1722
MR RYAN: Who pays you the 98 cents an hour?---Tolls.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1723
Toll pays you the 98 cents an hour?---As I say, don't quote me on that. I'm not sure of the exact figure.
PN1724
So it might be 90 cents, it might be - - -?---Yes.
PN1725
Does that only apply to you?---No, we have another contractor that I work with who gets the same.
PN1726
And any contractor - how many contractors are there at the Toll XPD site?---That do dangerous goods?
PN1727
Yes?---Two of us.
PN1728
How many other contractors are there?---15.
PN1729
So if the two of you do dangerous goods, do you get paid a bit extra?---We are talking bulk dangerous goods here.
PN1730
Bulk dangerous goods?---There is only two - there is company drivers that do it, but only two owner drivers.
PN1731
And you think its about a 98 cents an hour?---Yes.
PN1732
You say that you are required to supply copies of any convictions for driving offences and these are taken into account when the authorities decide whether to reissue with my licence. Is that recently?---Yes.
PN1733
Did that come through in Sydney all right, your Honour? Did that question and answer come through all right?
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1734
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Reporter? Yes.
PN1735
MR RYAN: Thank you. You then go on, and I'm looking at paragraph 24 of your statement now, you pick up and deliver dangerous goods at about 15 to 20 sites each week including Shell and Mobile, Orica, BHP and others and each site has their own induction training?---Yes.
PN1736
Do you ever deliver to the rail?---Yes.
PN1737
Do they have induction training?---No.
PN1738
They don't have any?---All I work is just rail deliveries.
PN1739
Rail delivery?---Or I load what they call isotoners.
PN1740
Yes?---And we lift them on and off of the rail.
PN1741
Perhaps if you explain what an isotoner is?---Like a 20 foot container but it's a tank and we load them at different premises and put them on the train for various states and they send their product down from Sydney, Brisbane or Adelaide at different customers' premises.
PN1742
Can you - can anyone come into Toll XPD, I think your yard is down in Footscray Road?---Yes.
PN1743
And can people come in there without receiving some form of induction?---Just as a visitor or worker as your title?
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1744
As a worker?---No, you've got to be - they put you through the mill before you just walk into the yard.
PN1745
Even as a visitor can you just walk in off the street?---I don't know what they do with visitors. They've got to come in through the front office so I don't know what the procedure is as far as just an outside visitor.
PN1746
You then go on in paragraph 25 to say on an ordinary day you arrive at work and go directly to your supervisor and then pick up your paperwork. What is your paperwork?---Three sheets of paper. One's a tank checking paper where you've got to check the tank and the other's the customer whereas you report to the supervisor, there's about 10 questions you've got to tick off. It gives you the tank number, it gives you the product you're loading and the customer you're going to. It also gives you the UN number, the class number and your packaging group number.
PN1747
So that is on the bit of paper that you get first thing in the morning?---Off, that's right.
PN1748
So the UN number and all of that stuff is on it?---That's all on that bit of paper to put in your - the EIP folder and you know what you're doing and - - -
PN1749
What if the paperwork is wrong, what would you do?---Well, I'd tell the boss. Say: well we've made a blue here.
PN1750
Yes. Does that happen very often?---No, it never has happened.
PN1751
Never has happened?---Not to me.
PN1752
In 23 years?---Paperwork always has corresponded with what they give me.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1753
You then go out and then I think you say you go out to the fork-lift operator and say - you find out which tank you want?---Find out what number tank I want over on the radio or pointed out, puts it on your truck.
PN1754
And then what do you do?---So your twist lock's up, you've got to put the safety frame on, you put the frame on and then you go to the customer's residence.
PN1755
Do you do any other pre-vehicle check?---It's my vehicle so I've already done that before I started to do that, check the oil and the tyres and that sort of thing, yes.
PN1756
And do you make sure the emergency information panel is correct?---Yes.
PN1757
Do you - - -?---And readable.
PN1758
Readable. Do you provide that?---No. The panel, the EIPs you mean that go on the tank?
PN1759
Yes?---No, they're already on the tank.
PN1760
They are already on the tank?---90 per cent of our work is dedicated tank work.
PN1761
And then you with the paperwork in your H76 book?---With the book.
PN1762
Yes. Just asking the witness to look at the H76 book, your Honour. Is that similar to the book you have?---The same, yes.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1763
The same, okay, and is that a handbook?---Yes, it is for emergencies. Do you know how to use it?
PN1764
I would like you to tell me?---Well, your UN number, you look up in the first section. That's all your UN numbers. That's the first thing you look at and then it tells you what guide to go to which you go to the yellow and you find out the guide number. By then I clip that together like so so it's then forced open if I have an accident or the authorities pull you up, they pull the book out and it's open at that guide if you're - and that tells you all the hazards, protective clothing they need, the public safety if there's an evacuation to take place and what they've got to do to clean the mess up. That's the idea of the book.
PN1765
So it simplifies the danger?---Yes. As long as the driver's got it open at the guide to correspond with his UN number and the authorities seem happy.
PN1766
Can I ask that the witness be given a copy of RTO1? I think in your witness statement you say that you do carry hydrochloric acid?---Yes.
PN1767
Are you familiar with that bit of paper in front of you?---Yes, although they're not avoiding any, don't use them.
PN1768
Don't use them any more?---No, because of the book.
PN1769
The book replaces that?---Yes.
PN1770
Makes it much more simpler?---Yes.
PN1771
So if you don't remember some of the details you just look up the book in front of you?---Yes.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1772
Is that like using the Melrose?---Yes.
PN1773
You know you are going to Footscray but you are not quite sure exactly which road, you look up the Melrose?---Well, yes, but you don't read the whole procedure, the emergency procedure every morning. It's mainly for the authorities.
PN1774
Mainly for the authorities?---Yes.
PN1775
Okay?---Because in all our training we've all been told if you're not clear on handling it or if you're not confident, don't do it. As long as the authorities know what you've got on that truck and what procedures they've got to do because they're just as much in the dark as what we are sometimes.
PN1776
You haven't been in an accident have you with the working authorities that needed to be called?---No.
PN1777
Your training, what have you been trained to do?---In the case of an accident or just with general training we've done at the yard?
PN1778
Well, general training and in the case of an accident, both?---Well, we've been trained at the yard in PA, we've had a training session in a spill, we've had a training session in fire extinguishers. I can't think of what else. I think there's something.
PN1779
Do Toll train you reasonably well?---I think they do.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1780
And so if you were in an accident what would be the first thing you would try and do?---First thing you have to do is check your tank before you look at anybody else, check your tank. If the tank's sprung a leak there's no going to a car and trying to help somebody out if your tank's leaking all over the place. Have to check your tank and make sure you haven't got a leak. You can't help anybody else that's involved. If the tank's got a leak you've got to do something about the traffic and then get someone to notify the authorities.
PN1781
Thank you. Just moving over in your witness statement to paragraph - page 9 ..... 39 you talk about procedures vary greatly from depot to depot depending upon the type of product and the standard of loading facilities. How would on a scale of 1 to 10 where does Orica sit?---I would put them at about 8.
PN1782
What if there was a leak or a spillage at Orica, how would that be handled?---Are we talking if I had it or if the company - if it was actually Orica itself?
PN1783
No, if you are loading and there's an incident at Orica, how would you deal with it and how would Orica deal, if - sorry, answer the question?---Well, if five sprung a leak while I'm loading, the first thing I'm going to do is hit the emergency button. That stops all pumps and goes through to the control belt. The emergency button has been hit and they come out, they all come out to see if I'm all right, if I'm - what's the story? But if it happens away from me, well you've just got to wait for the siren to go and then you go to the nearest safe haven as they call it.
PN1784
Which you have been - which you are aware of, you have been inducted in?---Of course. You've got to know where to go if there is an emergency.
PN1785
Are you aware of any serious injuries being caused through acid spills?---Not .....
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1786
So, neither you nor any of your colleagues have been injured seriously?---Not seriously, no.
PN1787
You then go on in paragraph 41 to talk about the work is similar to that of an oil or petrol tanker driver. In fact, when it's transferring it is more onerous, you say. Why is that?---A lot of places you don't have skully systems so you've got to watch your level yourself. We are handling different products all the time. A petrol tanker driver, he handles petrol. We handle different products all the time.
PN1788
How many different products would you be dealing with?---I don't know. I suppose 15 different products.
PN1789
Are you aware of any duties imposed on you when you are transferring product under the dangerous goods regulations?---Imposed on me? Well, it's - apart ..... has got responsibility but the primary responsibility is - - -
PN1790
Are there duties imposed on the transferor of the product?---I don't understand what you're saying.
PN1791
If you go to Orica and they are transferring product into your tank?---Yes.
PN1792
Customer duties, are you aware of what they are?---Yes, well their duty is the loading bay and their equipment is supposed to be first class so as we don't have problems with it, have accidents with it.
PN1793
And you then go on to paragraph 42 and say
PN1794
You then go on in paragraph 42 and say:
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1795
You need to know .....
PN1796
What different things do you need to know?---Well you need to know what product you're carting, what possible - if you have a spill with it. You need to know the properties of it. You need to know what can it do to people.
PN1797
And the book tells us most of that information, doesn't it?---A fair bit of it, yes.
PN1798
You then go on to talk about comparing your work to a general freight driver?---Yes.
PN1799
And your job is more dangerous, how is it more dangerous?---Well, they call it dangerous goods, so it's dangerous, isn't it, straight out? You can go and load a load of steel, whatever, put the locks and chains on and go. You go and load a load of acid or try and unload a load of acid and you get a little bit on your fingers or something, you've just got to be knowing what you're doing and switched on about it.
PN1800
You've got to be careful?---And you've got to be careful.
PN1801
But you've got to be careful if you are doing general freight as well, don't you?---Well I'm not - I haven't carted general freight for a long time so - - -
PN1802
All right. I won't ask you any more questions about general freight then. And you say down the bottom on page 10 that you feel a great deal of responsibility to ensure that dangerous situations are prevented and avoid criminal charges and fines by complying with all of the relevant laws?---Yes.
PN1803
I would assume a law abiding citizen like yourself would do that whether you're carting dangerous goods or not?---I would hope so.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR RYAN
PN1804
So, carting of dangerous goods doesn't change that attitude, does it?---It just makes you more aware of what you're carting.
PN1805
And if I could say it makes you more careful when you are carting?---Yes. It does make you more careful. You check and double check things.
PN1806
I have nothing further, your Honour.
PN1807
PN1808
MR GAYNOR: I guess you're in a bit of a unique position in these hearings, aren't you, because you are both an employer and an employee, technically, aren't you?---Well, technically, I suppose, yes.
PN1809
And in the chain of responsibility requirements of the Dangerous Goods Code I guess you carry some responsibility as the owner of the vehicle and, in effect, the employer as distinct from yourself in theory the employee driver of that vehicle. Would that be correct?---Yes, well I'm - just because I'm a company I'm still the owner and the driver of the vehicle.
PN1810
Certainly, but therefore some of your responsibilities would be as the owner of the vehicle in the chain of command and some of your responsibilities would be as the employee, in effect, or the driver of that vehicle?---Yes.
PN1811
Is that not correct?---Yes, that's right.
PN1812
It's almost wearing two hats, isn't it?---Yes.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1813
So are you quite clear that in your day-to-day operations which responsibilities you bear as the owner of the vehicle versus the driver of the vehicle?---I would be lying if I said I knew every law. I've got a fair idea, yes.
PN1814
Are you aware of the responsibilities under the Dangerous Goods Code as the owner of the vehicle, in effect the employer, versus and quite distinct from the responsibilities as a driver?---Yes.
PN1815
You are?---Yes.
PN1816
Can you explain where the difference is?---Well, it's up to me to cover my own insurances as a company. A driver doesn't have to worry about his insurances. I've got to cover all that sort of thing. I've got to know who can insure me, because we have a lot of problems getting insurance, I can tell you. My last insurance company didn't want to insure us for Class 6. There is that line - I've got to make sure my truck's up to scratch to cart the product and similarly I've got to drive it accordingly.
PN1817
What type of dangerous goods do you actually transport at the moment?---A big line of acids - hydrochloric acid, sodium hydrochloride, caustic soda, phosphoric acid, many petroleum products out of Shell - I wish I could rattle the names off but they wouldn't mean a thing to you - Shellsol, hexane, pentane, that sort of stuff - pastes. Well, they're called pastes but they are sort of a resin-based pastes. We cart a lot of that to BHP and to KWIL and a product called Triol C which is quite a corrosive ammonia-based product and there is some more hazardous material to go on with it.
PN1818
Would you consider the vast majority of those products to be at the more - put at the higher level of dangerous goods?---I would say 70 per cent of them were.
PN1819
Why would you say that?---Well hydrochloric acid is not real flash. None of the acids are real good. You get them on you and you know all about it.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1820
So you would say in terms of - if you carted all the dangerous goods that would be covered by the code from the lowest level of packaged goods through to anything else, you would say that work was at the higher end of dangerous goods?---Yes, because of the great quantities we cart, don't forget.
PN1821
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Gaynor, sorry to interrupt you. I need to have a five minute adjournment and it will be no longer than that. We should take that now.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.35pm]
RESUMED [3.45pm]
PN1822
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Gaynor?
PN1823
MR GAYNOR: Thank you, your Honour. My next question was to ask you just to describe if you could just the daily routine that you would normally go through in the course of your job?---Finally, from going to the supervisor in the morning, pick up the paperwork, getting the tank on. Occasionally, that's not every morning, maybe that tank might have been put up the night before if we get back in time. Go to customers' premises, load it, or do all your - do you want to go in to detail what we do at the customers - - -
PN1824
Just to paraphrase, yes?---We go on to customers' premises, load the tank, close it up, weigh it off, come back to our yard where we submit the paperwork then we - what we call, split the paperwork. So the ..... gets their copies, get the other copy, roll it in a tube, and there is a tube on each side of each iso tank. We then put that in with the - there's a procedure in each iso tank, screw it on, take it in to the train and get it lifted off, put it on the train and anyway as I was saying there might be a tank in here to go and unload, we might come back out to the yard and pick another tank up or go up to what we call the tank flow where we get them washed out and pick another tank up, it all depends where you've got to go and there's the procedure again.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1825
Has that daily routine varied much in the time you have been doing it?---Yes, because the time I've been doing it, I started with road tanks, now I'm just loading iso tanks.
PN1826
So the type of equipment has changed?---Yes.
PN1827
But the routine would not have?---Only in my job, yes.
PN1828
but the routine itself has not really changed?---The routine, no, not terribly.
PN1829
How long have you been doing that for?---1980 I started fuel trucking.
PN1830
You must be wearing a nice track along the road as you go along. Would you know, would you say that that is typical of the dangerous goods movement in any dangerous goods situation?---Not really, because there's not a terrible lot of us cart isotoners.
PN1831
Yes?---Most of the boys are on road tanks, isotoners are a different ball game altogether.
PN1832
Could I suggest that depending on the types you cart and the responsibilities and duties of those involved it probably varies between companies?---It does.
PN1833
Yes, can I ask you, in all the time as the owner of the vehicle, what has changed in the relation to the dangerous goods industry, if I could call it that, what has actually changed?---Well, when I first started in the industry, you go to customers ..... it is your responsibility when you're finished at the tank, when the hose goes on to the tank, that was it. You opened your tank, they load it or unload it or whatever. Now, just for an example, this morning we got a letter from a particular customer, I'm not going to mention who it was or anything,
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
we go there, we pull in to the bay, we tell them at the office we're there. We then have to hook the hose - put our hose on. We've got to go - there's seven different taps, you've got to make sure they're all in line and now we've got the letter this morning we've got to go and start the stirrer on the tanks so as the product's going in it is mixing with the product in the tank, that's the driver's responsibility now and we've got to line it all up. Well, when I say, line it all line, it's generally lined up. We've got to make sure the taps are in the right position and unload ourselves and we don't see a soul.
PN1834
So - sorry, pardon me?---Whereas before you always had a loader on site with you and that's - most companies have, most drivers do it themselves.
PN1835
So you are saying that their duties have changed?---Yes.
PN1836
You are now asked to do more?---Exactly.
PN1837
Would you say that the risk involved in dangerous goods, in carting dangerous goods has changed?---The risk - I wouldn't say the risk has changed, I would say the - the information that's been given us has been changed. When I first started, I didn't know what any of these things did to you and now I know, so you are more wary of it but the risk is still there. The risk is always there but one - as I said, when I first started I didn't know what caustic soda was,I didn't know what petroleum products were, they just - I was just a tanker driver, put it in, deliver it.
PN1838
Do you think this knowledge has been good, understanding more about the products and - - -?---As far as I'm concerned it's good, yes, but it - - -
PN1839
Why is it good?---Well, I can understand what I'm doing but in the short - in the short of it all, being so hard for people to get in, people had - young drivers don't want to cart dangerous because it's too hard.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1840
But would you say that because it is good it may have reduced the risk of doing the work, because you know more about the products and you know more about the impact of those products would you say that has reduced the risk of the job?---Of accidents or - because I know what I've got to do to keep things under control. Whereas - it's hard to put in to words, whereas before if you had a little leak in the tank you would probably go to the customer's premises and get it unloaded. But now if we have got a little leak in the tank you don't move until it's repaired, that sort of thing.
PN1841
Can I put to you, you said before that the responsibility ended I think when you - you said that the responsibility has broadened with the duty. By what definition has that responsibility - the duty may have extended, but I think you said that the responsibility has now broadened as well. By what definition do you make that statement?---Like I just said, the responsibility is on us for discharging and loading. Whereas there might not have been - on a lot of sites that you go to there's not people on site to help you. It's all up to you, that's your responsibility.
PN1842
Would you say that the duty of care that you have in your role has changed?---I would say, yes.
PN1843
In what way?---Well, you go to a customer's premises, you could just drive in in the old days and you'd fill up and he'd tell you where to put it. Now, the duty of care is on me, I've got to know where to put it.
PN1844
That duty of care depending on what you do is dependant upon the clarity of instructions, isn't it? So if you didn't know anything about what to do with your dangerous goods when you enter a site would you still do it anyway?---No, well, you'd have to go inside and find someone to instruct you what you've got to do.
PN1845
So the duty of care it only goes as far as your knowledge? you can't be responsible for something you didn't know about?---Well, it's up to you to know about it, you've got to know about it.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1846
So prior to the code, how did you know what your duty of care was?---Because what I've said, there was always someone there on site to help you. There's always been different companies to help you unload and load and now because everybody's - I don't know, pulling their horns in, i suppose, they get these people become redundant, it's all put back on the driver.
PN1847
So you didn't rely on your training to understand your duty of care?---Well, that all comes in to it, but common sense comes in to it.
PN1848
Did you not also rely on the laws to understand your duty of care?---Which?
PN1849
The laws?---The laws.
PN1850
Laws, yes?---Yes.
PN1851
So it wasn't just relying on someone at the depot, surely as an employer and as a driver you had to be aware of the laws that applied to dangerous goods?---Of course.
PN1852
So has that duty of care changed from prior to the code to after the code?---Well, in a roundabout, in some ways I suppose it has, it just seems to come back on to us more, on to the driver more. It's - you - I can't explain myself, but yes, I believe it has.
PN1853
So if wasn't written down in black and white you assumed it didn't applied to you?---And it didn't, well, we just weren't - you didn't know in those days, you just didn't know.
PN1854
So what has actually happened with the code then is that your responsibilities have become clearer?---The exact message is a better way of putting it, yes.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1855
And you would say that that means that you have more responsibility?---Yes.
PN1856
Has the training changed?---We get more of it.
PN1857
In what way do you get more of it?---We were never trained to use a BA before, we - all of us had fire extinguisher training, whereas in the old days you might've got trained once up in 5 years. Now, it's a pretty regular annual thing, you have refreshers and they have people come around the yard, like the experts to show us how to do it and it's not just me, it's pretty well the other dangerous goods drivers are all involved in it. It's not just for one person.
PN1858
Has the daily routine changed? I think you mentioned before the daily routine probably hasn't changed, it is maybe the duties have changed but the actual routine itself has not been changed as a result of changes to the code?---Not really, no.
PN1859
Have the requirements in relation to - well, I will put it another way if I may. I understand from what you said before that in the case of emergencies the information you are provided with has actually changed, such as the booklet, I think you said the old emergency response book has gone now and the booklet has taken it's place?---Yes.
PN1860
And I think you said that was a positive change because it has actually assisted you in the situation?---Well, I believe it is, yes.
PN1861
Has the situation with prosecutions changed over the years?---Well, I've never been prosecuted so I really can't comment on it.
PN1862
Can I turn you to page 12 of your statement?---Twelve?
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1863
Sorry, clause 12, I hope I'm on the right - - -?---Twelve.
PN1864
In the second last sentence, you say:
PN1865
Part of the reason for this which is that it was the driver's responsibilities are greater and the consequences of any accidents are made much more serious, for example the most recent code allows for criminal charges to be laid.
PN1866
So am I right in saying the consequences of any accidents, is that in the context of prosecution? So you are saying that the consequences of any accidents have increased because things like the criminal charges coming in - - -?---If it's your fault, yes.
PN1867
Yes. So the consequences - - -?---Then it's for negligence on your part, yes.
PN1868
The scope of being prosecuted has increased?---We started - I've been told yes, as I said, I've never been prosecuted so I don't know how it works.
PN1869
Yes, I'm just trying to understand your paragraph 12 because the context of driver's responsibilities are greater, as I understand it, relates to the fact that there more - you can now get criminal charges. There's greater chance of prosecution. Am I understanding - - -?---That's right. There's greater chance of prosecution.
PN1870
In paragraph 33 onwards, you talk about the difference of dangerous goods work and the general freight - sorry, when you go back to paragraph 43, as you say in the first sentence:
PN1871
Due to the nature of goods being fast forward, my job is more dangerous than that of a general freight driver.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1872
On what basis do you make that comment? What do you know of - how do you define the general freighting industry?---Well, as the general freight industry - I'm talking in our yard - is all colour ties work, the foreman puts it on, the ..... takes it off.
PN1873
So you are basing your statement about general freight on the general freight work that is done in your yard? So that is how you are comparing dangerous goods?---I've done a bit of general freight in my time too.
PN1874
What sort of general freight was that?---I catered to a lot of general for GMH, General Motors Holden. I'm going back 30 years, a long time ago.
PN1875
Motor parts?---Yes.
PN1876
So you have got knowledge of motor parts and you have got knowledge of - - -?---Well, they were just in big boxes, yes.
PN1877
Yes, and what is the other general freight work that is done in the yard currently?---We carry a lot of food, food products and steel, gatework that has got these sheep pens - or sheep pans they cart, they are all folded up but they are all loader by the loaders in the yard. They are not loaded by the driver.
PN1878
Beyond that, what is your knowledge about the different types of operations in the general freight industry?---What do you mean?
PN1879
On what basis are you making your statement in paragraph 43 other than - - -?---What we do in our yards?
PN1880
- - - you have spoken about?---What I've done - general freight is probably manually harder than what we do but someone comes and drives the fork-lift and puts the load on. You put the tarp on it if you have got it or you pull the side curtains closed but when we go out, we've got to know where to go, dress ourselves properly and do it mostly ourselves with dangerous goods.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR GAYNOR
PN1881
So your definition of general freight is everything outside of dangerous goods?---Yes, pretty well.
PN1882
I think you mentioned in terms of training that,in paragraph 24, you speak about the appropriate training required at some of your customer sites?---Yes.
PN1883
Would you be allowed to operate with those customers if you had not gone through the induction training?---You are not allowed into the place without going through the induction. You can't even get in the front gate.
PN1884
Is the induction training a one off or are there refresher courses?---They will be trained in most places and KLL Elcara in Geelong is I think it's every 2 years now. Mobil is every 2 years, Shell is every 2 years and most of the other places every 12 months. You have got plastic cards to open the gate and if you're out of your induction, then that card doesn't open the gate for you, in a lot of places, not in all of them but that's how it works.
PN1885
I have no further questions, thank you.
PN1886
PN1887
MR SHEARER: I've just got a few questions for you. Firstly, just to clarify, what class of truck do you drive? What size is it?---Kenworth, 42 ton.
PN1888
42 ton of semi-trailer?---Yes, semi-trailer.
PN1889
So it is not a restricted access vehicle at all except for the restrictions on dangerous goods cartage, okay. What mass do you operate?---42½ ton.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHEARER
PN1890
Is that likely to change in the company you work for? Are they likely to go to mass management at all?---I have been told about it but nothing more has been done about it.
PN1891
Do you understand anything about the mass management program?---I know it's a lot of bookwork. I've been told that. We've got airbag trucks and they bought us airbag trailers for this particular exercise but, as I said, Tiles have done nothing about it since and we've carted isotone. We've found that we don't really need to go to 45 tons because most of our weights are under that limit because you can only stuff so much on the rail anyway of an isotone. I don't know whether you knew that or not but you can and it's very rarely that we go over 42½ ton.
PN1892
When you started in the industry, you said you were hired as a tanker driver because the term dangerous goods wasn't really being used, is that right?---That's right, correct.
PN1893
But you carted products back then that are now called dangerous goods?---What is now called dangerous goods now, yes.
PN1894
What sort of products are you carting now?---Like I said before, acids, a lot of acids, a lot of petroleum products, ethanal, a bit of ethanal, a product called a trial of ..... goes into paper.
PN1895
Did you cart most of those same products when you started?---No, not really.
PN1896
Not really?---Probably caustic soda was one of the first dangerous products that I've ever carted. When I first started I also did a lot of gas.
PN1897
The equipment being used is standard of the tankers and the iso-containers, has that changed in the last 10 to - - -?---Yes.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHEARER
PN1898
For the better?---Yes.
PN1899
The requirements that you now have to comply with under the Dangerous Goods Code, to what extent has that improved your own personal safety?---Your dress when you are loading products, what you have to wear to protect yourself, probably one of the bigger things is the driving hours. There was never any regulation on local work up until a few years ago.
PN1900
On the driving hours, do those same driving hours restrictions apply to non-dangerous goods drivers?---I believe they do.
PN1901
I may have misunderstood you before but I got the impression that you were saying that the job is more complex now than it used to be. There's more to learn and there are more procedures to follow and that I think you have indicated in your statement that you are not paid for the additional things that you have to do. Are you saying that that is a greater concern for you than what might have been an improvement in safety that has come from all of those procedures?---Are you saying that I believe I should get more money?
PN1902
Well, that is what I'm asking. I wasn't sure whether you were saying that or not?---Well, I believe we're worth more money, yes.
PN1903
If the safety benefits were there but you weren't paid more money and if the Dangerous Goods Code didn't exist, would you still follow the same safety procedures?---Well, if the Dangerous Goods Code didn't exist, we probably would never have been taught it, probably just picked it up as we went along.
PN1904
Let us, just for a moment, if the Dangerous Goods Code changed or disappeared, do you think the safety procedures you follow in the work would change at all?---As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't know because I look after number 1, I'm the one doing the job.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHEARER
PN1905
Fair enough. What is it from what you have just - what is it that motivates you most in complying with the standards at the moment, the Dangerous Goods Standards?---Like I just said, I look after number 1.
PN1906
The reason I ask that is that you have made several references in paragraph 8 in your statement, made it pretty clear about the penalties and potential criminal charges has been consequences and I just want to clarify to what extent the risk of fines or charges motivates you to do the job a certain way?---Well, obviously the fines are going to be there if you get caught doing something you shouldn't do but doing something you shouldn't do with dangerous goods, you're the one that is going to wear the problem, not only with the money and the conviction but you could burn your hand off or something, you know, dramatic.
PN1907
Yes. In response to Mr Ryan's questions or some of them, you said that using the emergency procedure book was pretty useful. You clip it and mark it to a particular page and that that page is really then readily available for the authorities if they have to come to the scene. Would I be right in understanding that you are really saying that it is primarily for their use and not yours?---Naturally. If you have an accident in the truck and you get knocked out, the book is not much good to you, is it?
PN1908
Of course, absolutely?---If you come along and you are the authority and they grab that book and say this is the procedure guide, he has got open at this page, this is what we've got to do.
PN1909
So under the Dangerous Goods Code, if there is an incident out on the road, in terms of informing the authorities about what is on board your truck, what do you see are your responsibilities?---Are you talking if I have an accident?
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHEARER
PN1910
Yes, yes, or a spill or whatever, anything that occurs out on the road and the results and the authorities coming to the scene?---First of all, you check the tank. Secondly, public is number 2, you have got to see how the big the spill is or how - you have got to keep the public away, you try and get some help to stop the traffic and then get someone to call the authorities if you can't do it, you are too busy. But it's no good running around and trying to help somebody if you have got a tank leaking all over the place and making the situation worse without sending for the authorities. So the first thing is to check the tank.
PN1911
I understand that. You made that pretty clearly earlier on and I'm asking you specifically in terms of informing the authorities about the products on your truck. What is your role in telling the Authorities?---If I was still capable of making a phone call, you ring them. Then you hand them the book and say, this is what you're up against, right, and if you have the paperwork, which you should have, you hand them the paperwork. That tells them where you have come from, where it's bound for, the UN number and all that sort of stuff which is already in the book anyway. That's why we've got the book.
PN1912
Then they will then interpret tat information and do what they need?---That's right.
PN1913
You also made a comment that, I think when Mr Gaynor was asking you some questions, you made a comment that young drivers don't want to get into the dangerous goods driving because I think you were suggesting this because of all the controls and the requirements. It is all just a bit too hard?---Yes, I believe that. A particular transport company advertised in Sydney for drivers 2 weeks ago and they've got one application and they say people are out of work.
PN1914
So are you saying that it is because of those procedural requirements and the training or is it because of the actual product?---Well, I think it's a lot to do with a lot of things. It's the procedures. It's the money they get to do it. They can get a job outside for the same amount of money and it's some of the goods that they're just frightened of, you know, people are just frightened of.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHEARER
PN1915
Okay?---And I believe we need more young people in the industry because, like, people like me I'm getting ready to get out and I'm only one, but there's a lot of guys my age that have been in it all their lives and there's no young guys coming in to take our place.
PN1916
Just turning to the point you make in para 43 of your statement about the comparison - dangerous and general freight work - I certainly understand what you are saying about dangerous goods can be inherently dangerous, and if you spill some of it on you, you get burnt and so on. Once you have got the truck properly loaded, properly under control and you are out on the road are you saying that out on the road it is more dangerous than it is for general freight drivers?---Well, if you've got a load of flammable liquids and someone runs up the back of your truck and it flashes, where are you going to be, up there.
PN1917
Yes, okay. What if you are driving a flat top trailer with very heavy rolls of steel on it?---I'm driving it, or someone else is driving else is driving it?
PN1918
Well, let's just say you are driving it - - - ?---Well, you can see what happened the other day when it rolled over on the West Coast Bridge with rolls of steel.
PN1919
What happened?---Well, the driver got killed.
PN1920
That wasn't a dangerous good - - - ?---That's right - - -
PN1921
- - - it was general freight?---Exactly.
PN1922
But it very quickly killed that driver and that can happen either because of serious accident, or perhaps due to poor load restraint?---Well, it could have happened - it's not for me to point to say what could have happened in that particular case - - -
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHEARER
PN1923
I don't mean that particular example, but it could happen at any time if a driver with large rolls of steel, or the company loading it, fail to get the loading right, the driver or somebody else could be killed, couldn't they?---Well, that's right, yes.
PN1924
So there are circumstances - and I suggest there might be quite a few in general freight - where serious injury or accident can occur by the load moving and that sort of risk is not restricted to dangerous goods. Do you agree with that, or not?---Yes, but if you - if you're talking about that load of steel, what if that had been a load of petrol, or a load of flammable liquids.
PN1925
Yes?---The one that happened outside the - what do you call it - the basketball centre with that petrol tank, that could have been a total disaster if that had been an hour earlier.
PN1926
I'm certainly not suggesting that there aren't risks with dangerous goods, I'm just trying to confirm whether or not you think there is essentially no risk with general freight - - - ?---No, I didn't say that at all. I didn't - and I don't mean that.
PN1927
Okay, all right, that is all I have, thank you.
PN1928
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Shariff?
PN1929
PN1930
MR SHARIFF: Mr Stormonth, I would like to just refer to something another witness had said. I want you to tell me whether you agree with it. This other witness has said:
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1931
In the past the driver was the party who really copped the entirety of the load in terms of penalties.
PN1932
?---That's about it.
PN1933
But you have also said, both in response to questions today and in your statement that under the new code, under the new regulations, your responsibilities are greater as is the potential for you to have criminal charges laid against you?---Correct.
PN1934
Is that correct?---Yes.
PN1935
Well, how do you reconcile those two?---Well, as it is now because of the chain of responsibility, it falls more with the driver now because of the actual loading but in the past if you got caught on the road doing something wrong, right, an unroadworthy truck or something like that, you got booked for it and you had to wear it. Now there is a chain of responsibility that goes down the line so they want you - the bosses want you to make sure that everything is right before you leave for the job.
PN1936
But does not that also mean now that if something goes wrong, they are going to book the bosses?---Chain of responsibility - well, that's why you've got to make sure nothing does go wrong.
PN1937
Yes, but if something does go wrong they could book the bosses, correct?---Well, they say they can. I've never heard of it.
PN1938
But you have never heard of drivers getting booked, or you getting booked?---No, not - no, not lately.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1939
You say that on occasions at customer sites you have to load and you load unsupervised, is that correct?---That's correct.
PN1940
You know the dangerous goods code - not verbatim - but you know it pretty well?---Correct. I'm not saying I know the dangerous goods code, no. Have you seen the dangerous goods code?
PN1941
No, I - - - ?---It's a book about that thick.
PN1942
But you have gone through training?---Yes.
PN1943
Would you say that your customers also have a responsibility pursuant to that code?---I would imagine they'd have to.
PN1944
Is it the case that you load, unload or manually handle goods on every customer site?---Manually handle hoses, yes - yes.
PN1945
So on every customer site you are involved in loading/unloading?---I can't think of any site that I go to I just drive in and they do it for you, no. There are customers we go to where people help you.
PN1946
Yes?---Don't get me wrong there, everybody is self - every customer is self-unload.
PN1947
Do you have your statement in front of you?---No.
PN1948
In paragraph 19 of your statement, in paragraph 19, you are commenting there about other dangerous good drivers in the industry?---Yes.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1949
Do you agree?---Yes.
PN1950
Do you know what other dangerous goods drivers in the industry do in a general sense?---Well, in the dangerous goods industry we all cart pretty well the same amount of product, the same product, it's just that we deliver it to different customers and pick up from different customers, so we all do pretty well the same thing. Just because they're trucks with different colours it doesn't mean that we're doing different things. We're all party to the same Class 8, Class 3, whatever classes you like products.
PN1951
I would like to hand you a document. It is TWU6. It is referred to as TWU?---Are we allowed to cart gas?
PN1952
You understand what this document is saying?---I'm sorry, I haven't read through it yet. ..... yes.
PN1953
Do you feel you are in a position to comment on what packaged dangerous goods drivers do or don't do?---No. I don't cart packaged dangerous goods. I only cart bulk.
PN1954
So really your statement and your evidence that you have given today is limited to - - - ?---Bulk.
PN1955
Bulk?---That's right.
PN1956
Within bulk dangerous goods, you say your experience is reflective of what happens in the bulk segment of the industry?---Yes. But what do you mean by that, "my experience"?
PN1957
Well, in paragraph 19, see?---Yes.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1958
There is a paragraph 19. You are saying:
PN1959
The skills that I have acquired are not unique amongst dangerous goods drivers in the industry.
PN1960
?---Yes.
PN1961
What I'm trying to get at is, are you there commenting on all dangerous goods drivers in the industry, or just bulk?---Just bulk.
PN1962
Right?---I can't comment on something I don't know anything about.
PN1963
Right. So your experience of unsupervised loading/unloading is not reflective of the entire industry, is it?---Of bulk it is.
PN1964
That is not a - - - ?---For bulk.
PN1965
Right, but I will just ask my question again. Your comments on unsupervised loading and unloading at customer sites is not reflective of the entire dangerous goods industry, is it?---You're talking about two different things there. You've got a 450 litre container to be unloaded - a fork-lift comes at it and lifts it off. That is just two totally different things as far as I can see.
PN1966
Right, so what you are saying is in - if there were packaged goods involved, a fork-lift driver may load or unload the packaged dangerous goods? In fact, you said that these days in the industry most other goods other than bulk dangerous goods are loaded by fork-lifts and unloaded by fork-lifts?---The majority of goods that I see that pass through our depot, yes.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH XXN MR SHARIFF
PN1967
Yes?---And you go to customers premises, you see a fork-lift driver loading and unloading the truck.
PN1968
They are loading and unloading packaged dangerous goods. That is all thank you.
PN1969
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Field?
PN1970
MS FIELD: I have no questions.
PN1971
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Duffin?
PN1972
PN1973
MR DUFFIN: Mr Stormonth, both Mr Ryan and Mr Gaynor asked you some questions in relation to you being a contractor and in particular Mr Gaynor asked you a question in relation to the responsibilities separated between being an owner and being a driver. In your experience by comparison to the employee drivers of Toll are there any different obligations upon you as compared to those employee drivers at Toll?---In actual carting?
PN1974
Carting day to day?---Day-to-day work, no. We've both got to be responsible for our own actions on the job.
PN1975
Now, in relation to Mr Ryan asked you a question in relation to your paperwork and said that, you know, in the 23 years you have never found the paperwork to be wrong. Do you still check the paperwork?---Of course you do.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH RXN MR DUFFIN
PN1976
Why do you still check it?---Well, what if you have an accident and you've got the wrong paperwork, it doesn't correspond with what product you've got on.
PN1977
So the fact that you have never found - sorry, I withdraw that. Mr Shearer asked you a question in relation to the responsibilities that you might have in relation to an incident on the road and your response both I think to Mr Shearer and also to Mr Ryan was that you checked the tank first. What would you do if you actually found the tank had a leak?---Depending on the product and how bad the leak was. If it was a product that was flammable or a product that gave off a lot of fumes, you've got to stop the traffic coming from downwind. You then have to get help. That's where you get out the truck with your phone. If you can stop the leak by yourself and if you - one look at it and you know if you're going to be able to stop the leak or help contain it. We carry in our tool boxes what they call a spill kit which is enough to contain a small spill and perhaps contain a bit of acid until someone gets there but our first - after seeing what the leak is the priority is the public people, you know stop the traffic coming past and get someone to get help if you can't and then just contain the leak until the authorities arrive.
PN1978
And how would you determine what sort of actions you could take in relation to a particular product?---Well, they would have to be - that would come to you when it happened. It's all very well to say what you're going to do in an incident. Until the incident happens you don't know how you're going to handle it.
PN1979
Well, in relation to that, if that did happen what did you do?---Well, after we got over our shock of what was actually happening one of us went inside and told what was going inside but I ran in next door and told them to block the car-park off and I jumped back over the fence and put the beanbags around, what they call the beanbags to soak up the acid. We realised we couldn't stop the leak and we moved the truck or following the beanbags, got the fork-lift and drove it down to lift the tank off, got another tank put on the ground, lifted the tank up. I got up and hooked a hose to it and drove it into another tanker to contain what was left. But no, the fire department came along and the general manager was there or a guy called Peter Howard and they just stood back and the fire department said that we had it controlled and they just sort of stood there and watched us.
**** JOHN PERRY STORMONTH RXN MR DUFFIN
PN1980
I've nothing further, your Honour.
PN1981
PN1982
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Duffin, tomorrow morning I assume the first two witnesses will be the two WA-based drivers.
PN1983
MR DUFFIN: That is correct, your Honour.
PN1984
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have you any program or do you know your program at the moment as to who will be after them?
PN1985
MR DUFFIN: Your Honour, it is I must say just a trifle flexible at the moment in that I cancelled - I think I cancelled Neville Chester who was originally coming tomorrow and Rob Ford who has been outside the courtroom for the last couple of hours has left. I was hoping that he would be available tomorrow but he will not be around either. So I suspect it will probably just be Brian Dunn in the afternoon.
PN1986
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. We will just keep the employers informed. That is more important than me.
PN1987
MR DUFFIN: Yes. Matthew Harper was also - is still down to have come tomorrow although as a result of today I haven't quite decided whether it would still be appropriate. So I put the employers on notice that they should prepare his statement for cross-examination, although I may tomorrow morning have to say that simply because of my expectation that Mr Dunn will take some time that it probably wouldn't be appropriate for him to do the same thing as what happened with Mr Ford today.
PN1988
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Any of the employers want to raise anything before we adjourn until tomorrow morning?
PN1989
MS FIELD: Your Honour, I will be a late arrival tomorrow, your Honour, because I've got an unfair dismissal at 9 o'clock so I'm sure the other employers will look after my interests in the interim.
PN1990
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sure.
PN1991
MS FIELD: But I just wanted to let you know.
PN1992
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks for letting me know that. I will see you all in Melbourne tomorrow morning at 10 am.
ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 14 AUGUST 2003
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
ROBERT TREVOR BROWN, SWORN PN972
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DUFFIN PN972
EXHIBIT #TWU11 STATEMENT OF ROBERT BROWN PN982
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN984
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GAYNOR PN1090
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SHEARER PN1120
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SHARIFF PN1205
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS FIELD PN1220
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DUFFIN PN1233
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1249
BRUCE REGINALD BROWN, SWORN PN1252
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DUFFIN PN1252
EXHIBIT #TWU12 STATEMENT OF MR BROWN PN1285
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN1287
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GAYNOR PN1429
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SHEARER PN1539
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SHARIFF PN1613
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS FIELD PN1632
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DUFFIN PN1638
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1649
JOHN PERRY STORMONTH, SWORN PN1651
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DUFFIN PN1651
EXHIBIT #TWU13 STATEMENT OF JOHN STORMONTH PN1664
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN1666
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GAYNOR PN1808
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SHEARER PN1887
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SHARIFF PN1930
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DUFFIN PN1973
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1982
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