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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 6, 114-120 Castlereagh St SYDNEY NSW 2000
PO Box A2405 SYDNEY SOUTH NSW 1235
Tel:(02) 9238-6500 Fax:(02) 9238-6533
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE
C2003/5261
AUSTRALIAN POSTAL CORPORATION
and
COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC,
ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING
AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re establishment of a
new centralised parcel processing facility
at Chullora
SYDNEY
10.25 AM, THURSDAY, 21 AUGUST 2003
PN1
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could I have the appearances, please.
PN2
MS A. PERIGO: Your Honour, I appear for the Australian Postal Corporation and with me is MR D. RICHARDS and MR R. BEATTIE.
PN3
MR G. RAYNER: If the Commission pleases, I appear for the CEPU.
PN4
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm sorry, Ms Perigo, what was the names of the persons appearing with you?
PN5
MS PERIGO: Mr Richards and Mr Beattie.
PN6
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They are from where?
PN7
MS PERIGO: Australia Post, your Honour. I'm sorry, your Honour, Mr Richards is the Facility Manager for the proposed new facility that we'll be talking about this morning and Mr Beattie is from Human Resources.
PN8
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Ms Perigo?
PN9
MS PERIGO: Your Honour, thank you for the early listing of this matter. As you can see from the notification, the dispute involves the relocation of work which is currently done at several parcel centres to a new centre at Chullora, and the employee communication to be sent to the affected staff to advise them in more detail of those changes, and also to advise them of their future employment opportunities with Post. Your Honour, what I would like to do is take you through that documentation very briefly, the consultative processes we've had, and the difficulties that we reach and the assistance that we're seeking from yourself this morning.
PN10
Your Honour, the employee communication we're talking about essentially consists of an information booklet to staff and an expression of interest form and if I can provide your Honour with a copy of the drafts of those documents. I have provided your Honour with two documents. One is entitled Staff Information Booklet Parcel Post Officers and Senior Parcel Post Officers, and the other one is entitled Expression of Interest.
PN11
These documents are tailored for particular work groups so the ones I have provided to you relate to just that group of employees that are affected by this change. There are other groups. There are six booklets in all and six expression of interest forms in all to tailor the information to particular operational groups within the parcel network in New South Wales.
PN12
Your Honour, the material has been jointly developed by the parties. It is still in draft form but there has been quite a number of discussions and consultations on that and Mr Rayner, Mr Richards and Mr Beattie have played quite a heavy part in putting that documentation together. As I said, the information in the booklet provides details on the type of work to be performed at the new site, the shift times, transport to the new facility and how staff will be allocated to work in the future. It provides staff with their allocation process once their existing facility collapses.
PN13
PN14
MS PERIGO: The form that I've given to your Honour which is Australia Post 2, that is a form that we would ask employees to complete to indicate their preferences to assist us in allocating staff to the various facilities and various shift times, given the changes that we are going to go through. This process of asking staff to express an interest is not new. We've used it in most of our major change restructures in New South Wales, we've used it when we established our Sydney West Letters Facility and the recent change to the Sydney North Letters Facility. On both those occasions the documentation was developed jointly and was very successful in the process.
PN15
We've spent considerable time drafting that documentation. We are of the belief and understanding that documentation is complete, addresses the issues that have been raised by the union in the consultative processes and provides all necessary information to enable staff to express an interest. Your Honour, I mentioned briefly the changes that are taking place. Currently in New South Wales parcels are processed at a number of different sites, Alexandria, Chatswood, Kingsgrove, Leightonfield, Villawood and some also at Clyde.
PN16
Commencing October 2003, the processing work at these facilities will gradually move over to the new facility at Chullora. October 2003 the site at Villawood is proposed to move to that new site with small parcel processing migrating over in January next year, and the remainder of the large parcel processing transferring over in March 2004. We're coming up quite close to the time frames of getting the work relocated to the new facilities.
PN17
In addition to the parcel processing work going to our new facility at Chullora, we will also have the work associated with the pick up of Customs parcels from Customs premises which is currently done at parcel sites going into some of our smaller transport facilities. We have quite a complex change that we're looking at. It's complex in terms of the amount of work involved, the number of staff involved, and to give your Honour a picture of the number of staff, we're talking somewhere in the vicinity of approximately 850 parcel processing staff, of our base grade staff, supervisory staff approximately 50 and some administration and logistic staff approximately 60, so over a thousand staff all up or very close to.
PN18
Your Honour, to also put it in context, the changes in New South Wales are similar to other states. We're having a similar site established in Victoria, we're having changes happening to parcel processing across the rest of our network and another site also established in Queensland. Changes are necessary to assist us in better service to our customers. Given the nature of the type of change we're talking about in New South Wales, we've had a lengthy and generally positive consultation process with the union of which Mr Rayner has been an integral part. Just to pick up the highlights of that consultation process, we had staff advised in August 2001 that these changes were on foot and that we would be progressing towards centralisation of parcel processing in Queensland, Victoria and New South Wales.
PN19
Following that communication we had a steering committee established in New South Wales in November 2001 and that consisted of the union officials and management representatives to manage that consultation process for establishing a new facility at Chullora. That forum met in most cases monthly. Affected staff received briefings in October last year and March last year. We also had a series of workshops, two of which were facilitated by Justine Oldmeadow to look at issues of shifts and data collection, building issues, amenities, occupational health and safety and the Expression of Interest booklet and material I have provided to your Honour which is Australia Post 1 and Australia Post 2.
PN20
The work on the Expression of Interest documentation commenced in December last year and it's been Post's intention to get that out as soon as possible. In fact, we were hoping to get that out in April of this year but obviously time frame has not been met. Those consultative processes that have been in place have worked quite well, they are still working and there is still constructive consultation in relation to a number of those issues.
PN21
If we can look particularly at the Expression of Interest documentation. I mentioned that the work started in December 2002. To finalise it and get a final position on documentation that could be distributed to staff there was a further workshop in June of this year solely for the purpose of finalising the Expression of Interest, work through the issues that were raised by the union and the union's participants. Made considerable progress there. Met again with Mr Rayner on 10 July and took the day up in trying to work through that documentation to achieve a consensus, and we are talking around about six different pieces of communication to staff. Your Honour, we left that meeting with wording that was agreed to cover areas that were still being progressed between the parties.
PN22
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You mean positions or different - just matters within each position?
PN23
MS PERIGO: I'll take your Honour to that in a bit more detail to clarify that in just a minute. Your Honour, I've said that we're of the belief and understanding the documentation is complete and addresses the issues raised. We received some correspondence in July from the union and if I can hand up a copy of that and a copy of our response, that will answer your Honour's question.
PN24
Your Honour, in the union's correspondence dated 16 July they advised that they had placed a ban on teams which is the Post preferred system of work for Chullora. They also listed four other areas which are the dot points towards the end of their correspondence. They, as far as Post understands, are the issues that are still between the parties and I would like to take you briefly through those and the reasons why we still believe our material is able to be distributed while some of these issues are still resolved.
PN25
In relation to teams you will note in our correspondence in the third paragraph, if I can just quote from that.
PN26
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You are reading from your letter?
PN27
MS PERIGO: From the Corporation's letter, yes:
PN28
As part of EBA 5, Post and the union gave support to ...(reads)... when teams are introduced at the Sydney Parcel Facility -
PN29
which is the name of our facility at Chullora, your Honour. In addition to that, the union advised and supported with the concept of teams in major processing centres nationally. Teams are in place in our two major mail processing facilities, one in Dandenong, Victoria, and the other in Strathfield, New South Wales. Perth and Adelaide mail centres are commencing the process and implementing teams in their operations. Underwood in Queensland, which is a mail and a parcel processing facility, I am instructed is well advanced in implementing teams. The Corporation also intends to implement teams at the major parcel processing facilities in Victoria.
PN30
Your Honour, it is very clear that that is the intention of the Corporation and the position which we have. We have wording in our employees booklet which reflects Post's position in relation to teams and my understanding was that that wording was agreed with the union to allow the information to be distributed to staff in the expression of interest process.
PN31
As to the other four issues that are raised in that correspondence, the union referred to a buy option for parcel staff multi-functional allowance. That relates to an issue of an allowance which the company paid in parcel centres which is the subject of proceedings before Commissioner Cribb in 2003/1377. A decision is pending in that and there are discussions between the parties on another part of that issue in relation to the allowance which we feel may be able to resolve the issue and again, we don't see that that particular issue shouldn't stop material being sent to staff in terms of - - -
PN32
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could you just wait for a minute, Ms Perigo, I think it would be helpful if I finished reading the letter, so have a seat and I will finish reading it.
PN33
MS PERIGO: Yes, your Honour.
PN34
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What did you say about the review being conducted by Mr Berry?
PN35
MS PERIGO: Your Honour, I was quoting from the first page of that document. As part of EBA 5 there was an agreement between the parties that there would be a Post audit review of the implementation of things.
PN36
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, and what's happening with that?
PN37
MS PERIGO: Mr Berry has provided a report which has been given to the union at the national and state levels and at the moment is being considered by the Corporation as to the next step we shall be taking in terms of a number of recommendations that Mr Berry provided to us.
PN38
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have you had any feedback from the union about that?
PN39
MS PERIGO: No, your Honour, I am not aware that we have.
PN40
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When did you give it to them?
PN41
MS PERIGO: Your Honour, I don't have a date in front of me, I believe it was probably - - -
PN42
MR RAYNER: If I could assist, your Honour, the report was considered in a divisional executive meeting held last week that concluded on Friday, and as I understand it our national office is now preparing a response for Australia Post.
PN43
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I understand where that is now, Ms Perigo.
PN44
MS PERIGO: I'm sorry, your Honour, I didn't have the date of the actual report itself.
PN45
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's all right, they have it, they have considered it, they are about to respond. Thank you, I have now read everything I need to.
PN46
MS PERIGO: Your Honour, in relation to the other points, I have taken you to the issue in terms of the allowance. The letter then sets out our position on the administration structure, classification and information pertaining to retained operations. In relation to the administration structure, further discussions have taken place since that correspondence was sent, most recently on 12 August. There are still some other issues between the parties which we believe can be resolved. The classification structure, your Honour has read the information there and that's an issue as to the name to be given to the staff at the facility, which we do not see as being a major issue, and staff determining where they would like to work.
PN47
Further correspondence has been sent to the union on the retained operations, that was sent on Friday of last week and there will be discussions on that matter as well. Again, we don't see that those issues need to be any further developed prior to an information booklet being sent to staff. Your Honour, in the correspondence we say that we do need to have those expressions of interest distributed as soon as possible and in the next two or three weeks. We have talked to the union about a timetable, we provided them with an executive timetable and, your Honour, if I could provide a copy of that to you as well.
PN48
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The letter from the CEPU will be exhibit Australia Post 3, the response by Australia Post will be exhibit Australia Post 4 and the current planned timetable will be exhibit Australia Post 5.
EXHIBIT #AUSTRALIA POST3 LETTER FROM CEPU
PN49
MS PERIGO: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, you will see in that timetable that we have suggested that the information booklet will be provided to staff tomorrow and joint briefings to commence on 25 August and if I can just take you through the reasons for that. It is normally a period of around two weeks for staff to consider their options which is what we have planned for here; because we have quite a large number of staff and the expressions of interest will be quite complex in terms of facilities they can nominate to work in and shifts they can nominate to work at, there is going to be a fair amount of data to be analysed and worked through.
PN50
We wanted to have the expressions of interest out before the school holidays in September as a number of our staff are away during school holidays. This timetable allows for that. We have also made a commitment that staff who are not allocated to their preference will be personally interviewed and we have allowed three weeks for that.
PN51
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Not allocated?
PN52
MS PERIGO: To their first preference, your Honour, they would be interviewed by a member of management and a representative from their union to talk through other options available to them. Your Honour, that's quite a lengthy process as well and until we are able to scope the number of staff that may involve our best guess as to the amount of time taken for that is three weeks. That takes us through to October to allow a one off spot process to occur and for people to be notified of their final placings no later than 14 November. When your Honour looks at our operational timetable from October onwards it gets very, very busy, so the earlier we can have the process started the earlier we can complete it without it going into our busiest operational time of the year.
PN53
Your Honour, we've gone through a very lengthy and very productive consultative process. We've had Mr Rayner, who's been an integral part of that, and we've had some very positive consultation. We believe, as we said, that our documentation is complete and addresses the issues raised by the union and provides all necessary information to employees to enable them to express a preference. The union advises that the wording was agreed. It puts the parties' positions forward in relation to matters such as teams. We see that there's still quite an amount of consultation to continue. This is nowhere near the end of that process but it's a milestone that we need to occur to allow us to continue on with our planning for the new facility.
PN54
Your Honour, it's time critical that the information be provided to staff. The staff are anxious and keen to have that documentation so they can express a preference, be notified of the outcome of expression of interest as soon as possible. Your Honour, in relation to the assistance that the Corporation seeks from the Commission, I have drawn up a very rough recommendation in terms of that which I would like to provide.
PN55
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could I just leave the recommendation until I've heard from Mr Rayner.
PN56
MS PERIGO: Of course, your Honour, but in terms of what we're seeking, we're seeking that the document that's been jointly prepared in relation to all the affected staff, so the six booklets, be distributed commencing 22 August, that we also have a recommendation that the joint staff briefings occur commencing Monday next week. We would also be seeking the union's co-operation in relation to the presentation of those joint briefings, that there would be no ban placed or no industrial action in relation to this issue. If it pleases, your Honour.
PN57
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Rayner.
PN58
MR RAYNER: Thank you, your Honour. For the large part we don't disagree with a lot of what Ms Perigo has said, that the first consultative meeting at the state level was held back in November 2001, it's been operating reasonably well since then, there's been a few hiccups along the way as there normally is in these sorts of processes, but they were fairly easily resolved and put back on track.
PN59
It was agreed and working parties were formed involving union representatives and management representatives and in all seven working parties were put together to deal with the issues. As Ms Perigo said, there were joint briefings held. There were briefings planned for February 2002 but they were aborted by management because they didn't like what I was saying, and they were subsequently rescheduled for March and further briefings were held in October.
PN60
The workshops, as Ms Perigo mentioned, facilitated by Justine Oldmeadow, were held on 1 November and 27 February. Both workshops identified the issues that needed to be resolved in order to forward the project. From the first workshop there were some 83 issues that were identified from the staff through their AURs that needed to be worked through. The process has gone very well because we've now got those issues down to 12 unresolved issued that the union says need to be addressed, and they're the issues that remain in contention today.
PN61
These issues that are still unresolved today, they're not new issues, they're not something that the union has dropped on the table at the last minute to try and disrupt the process or slow Australia Post down. They've been consistently raised since day one and still at today's date they haven't been addressed.
PN62
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They haven't been resolved.
PN63
MR RAYNER: Haven't been resolved, thank you, your Honour. In fact, right from the start we've not opposed Chullora as a parcel centre, we've not opposed the restructure that management's planning, we've not opposed the EOI Sure, we've been critical at times of the way management has intended to proceed with this change but we've not stood in the way and actively participated in facilitating the change.
PN64
We agree it's a major business change and it's a major business initiative on behalf of Australia Post, but it seems that Australia Post has lost sight that this major business initiative of theirs is going to have serious impacts on the staff and their families. As I mentioned, we don't oppose an EOI to determine the futures of our members and the Australia Post employees. In fact, we're 100 per cent supportive of the EOI process. If we weren't, I wouldn't have spent that many hours with Mr Beattie trying to work it out.
PN65
However, your Honour, we're firmly of the view that in order for this EOI process to be conducted fairly and properly, all the affected staff need to have as many of the facts in front of them as possible so that they can make an informed decision about their future. We see little point in going to them now and saying, Well, please tell us what you want to do for the rest of your career, however there are these issues that still need to be worked out, because depending on how those issues are resolved, it may impact significantly on the decision the people have made into their future.
PN66
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why would that be so?
PN67
MR RAYNER: Why would that be so?
PN68
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Because the conditions will be the same, salary etcetera will be the same, at whichever facility they go.
PN69
MR RAYNER: The salary will be the same. There are different allowances applicable. There are things like new technology. The parcel network at the moment is essentially I would say 99 per cent manual operation, whereas in the future it's going to be probably more the other way, 90 per cent mechanical operation and new technology introduced that hasn't been seen in Australia Post previously. Because of that we've got issues about crewing levels, safe operating procedures on machines, sorting rates on the machines, the classification structure that's going to be involved which can impact on our members.
PN70
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why will that be different?
PN71
MR RAYNER: Why will it be different, the classification structure?
PN72
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN73
MR RAYNER: Because Australia Post said we want it be different. They want to change the classification from parcel post officer to mail officer. We don't see this as a die in the ditch issue, the classification structure can be worked out later, but people are asking now. These are the issues that have been identified by the staff saying we want to know this stuff before you ask us where we want to work.
PN74
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What's retained operations?
PN75
MR RAYNER: Retained operations. Australia Post provided us - - -
PN76
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What's left to be done at the centres that will remain open that aren't Chullora?
PN77
MR RAYNER: If I could take a step back. Initially Australia Post's plan was to close all the existing parcel centres and relocate the work into Chullora. Since then they've come to me and said, We've had another look at it and we want to keep the parcel delivery contractors who deliver the parcels to household addresses, we don't want all of them in Chullora, we need to keep some of them at the existing parcel facilities for some time into the future. They're not sure exactly how long.
PN78
Accepting what management said to me, they said, We'll need to keep a small staff there, I think it's two on the night shift and two on the day shift I think is roughly the numbers, given what management was telling me I asked them to provide me with a detailed proposal on what they were wanting to retain and how that was going to work. That proposal was only provided to me on 18 August and Australia Post have given me until 29 August to respond and I've identified a number of issues in there.
PN79
Having said that, your Honour, those issues would not impact on the Chullora operation but they may impact on people's decision as to whether they want to go to Chullora and work or whether they want to stay in the retained facility or whether they want to go and work in a transport hub. So we're saying those issues need to be known for people to make an informed decision.
PN80
One of the chief issues, and I guess all things being considered, is probably the primary issue, is the team working arrangements. Ms Perigo said EBA5, done the review, the Peter Berry review, we've read the Peter Berry review. As a state position, we're very concerned with some of the recommendations that have been made in there by Mr Berry. We don't think they accurately reflect the current situation at Strathfield. We're saying our position from New South Wales pending our national position is that we are very concerned about having a system of work in place such as team working at Strathfield that we say is clearly not working, and to just pick that system up and drop it in Chullora and then have two places where we've got a system of work that's not working is fraught with danger.
PN81
Management is saying, Well, we can put in place some principles and make sure that doesn't happen and we can learn from our mistakes at Strathfield in putting them at Chullora, but with respect, since Strathfield opened up we've had principles in place in how team working is supposed to operate there and in my opinion - and this has been shared with management and it's also been shared in this place with a dispute that was heard by Senior Deputy President Marsh from memory a few weeks ago - the teams haven't progressed from day one at Strathfield.
PN82
Teams, when they were introduced in Strathfield, were supposed to develop to eventually reach the point where they would be self-managed teams, but the issues we're facing at Strathfield is there is no adherence to the team working principles and teams haven't progressed beyond the opening of Strathfield and there's no level of self-management in the teams. What we're seeking at Strathfield, and mail officers and parcel post officers talk to each other, they know what's going on, and there is a real concern amongst our members about introducing team work at Chullora when it's obviously not working at Strathfield. There has been no attempt to resolve the issues at Strathfield and try and improve the team working arrangements at Strathfield.
PN83
We're saying if it can be demonstrated that team working can be implemented and working properly then yes, we would support teams, and this was a concern raised by the union prior to Strathfield opening as to whether or not we were asked whether we would support teams. In its true form, yes, we would support teams. Our concern with teams is we've got too many managers, and this was highlighted in the Berry report, one of the things we do agree with, too many managers who are reluctant to lose that control they have over the staff and have the teams making their own decisions.
PN84
Our position on the team working, your Honour, is simply discuss the review, identify and attempt to resolve the issues that have been highlighted in the review and then if the parties are still saying let's progress with teams, well, if that's the national position I guess I won't have much to stand on if I still personally disagree with it or as a state branch we still disagree with it, but we need to progress that review rather than just say let's pick up what we say is a failed system, put it in place and see if we can make it work somewhere else. We say if we've got it, make it work and then we can look at extending that process of work.
PN85
I have to say, your Honour, to a large extent I am not overly critical of management in New South Wales. The main hiccup seems to be at the national level. A short time ago Mr Richards and I because of the bottlenecks we were experiencing at the national level requested to go and be part of the national parcels consultative forum where we attended a meeting. A number of issues we raised were basically waiting to be discussed at the national level.
PN86
One, for example, which we think is critical is the design work on the new machine. There needs to be a design paper put together on crewing levels, staffing levels, sorting rates, the whole box and dice. When we asked when we could get that information so we could move forward the response I received was, we're not going to do any of the design work until we go and see the machine. Now, I understand they are going overseas to look at the machine next month, so we are still some months away from getting this design work and to go to people and say, tell us where you want to work but we can't tell you how you are going to be doing that work just yet, we think is not fair. That design work in our opinion will go a long way to resolving a lot of those issues that remain unresolved.
PN87
All we are saying, your Honour, is let us do the EOI but let us do it when we have - we say all of the facts but certainly more of the facts than what we have in front of us now, because not to do that would be simply unfair to the staff. It is unfair to people to say, we're going to change your working life around with new facilities, new ways of doing work, new technology, new shifts, everything going to change, but not give them the facts to let them make that informed decision. All we are saying is let's do the process but let's do the process fairly, fairly for everyone, including the staff. Thank you, your Honour.
PN88
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Ms Perigo, what information is sent out to people when the expressions of interest are sent out, is any other information sent out about the change?
PN89
MS PERIGO: Your Honour, AP 1, which is the booklet.
PN90
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The booklet, yes.
PN91
MS PERIGO: Yes, there's that booklet and then there's the expression of interest.
PN92
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Mr Rayner, is it that the training, the teamwork is in flux, in some respects you perceive it as failed? That may or may not be the position of Australia Post but it is certainly the subject of recommendations and review by Mr Berry. That's a matter that will be discussed and changes may be implemented at Strathfield and other places and then therefore Chullora, but this is a very large initiative and I am not persuaded by anything you put to me that it should be delayed whilst those issues are resolved, that would be a very extensive delay.
PN93
The implementation and performance of teamwork concepts is likely to be a matter that they will be fine-tuned over a long period of time, not a short period of time. I can't on the basis of what you put to me see any good reason why its implementation should be delayed. There are matters that need to be resolved between the parties about those four issues you say are outlined in your letter. I don't see any reason why as part of the distribution employees ought not to be informed that the teamwork will be implemented at the new facility, the subject of review and recommendations between the parties. The changes to that process might be implemented as a result of that review. No employees conditions are static in the way that you propose and I don't think it's a very satisfactory fashion for a business to be conducted.
PN94
I don't see why, though, Ms Perigo, at the same time as these documents are distributed that information in relation to those matters and a list of matters still to be negotiated between the employee and the union can't be part of the advice to employees. I mean industrial relations between the parties aren't fixed in concrete at any stage. Changes such as the ones discussed might be implemented at the facilities they are already working in.
PN95
I am not persuaded by what you put, Mr Rayner, that there is any inherent unfairness in that process. Do you want to give some consideration to what I have suggested about information being sent out at the same time?
PN96
MR RAYNER: I would, your Honour, yes.
PN97
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I suggest, Ms Perigo, that it ought to contain a detail such as the fact that teamwork is implemented at Strathfield, that it has been subject to some recommendations, that it is being considered by the union and the organisation at a national level and that changes may as a result may be implemented at Strathfield and at Chullora and it should include a list of the matters that you and Mr Rayner agree are still to be resolved.
PN98
MS PERIGO: Your Honour, it goes part way to including that material as it stands at the moment.
PN99
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I know, but I mean in a pointed fashion as part of a covering letter with the booklet. Other than that, which I think is really merely a proper exchange of information, I don't see any reason to delay the forwarding of the expressions of interest. I will adjourn while the parties have a discussion about how that correspondence might be drafted.
NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED [11.05am]
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