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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Suite 25, Trafalgar Centre 108 Collins St HOBART Tas 7000
Tel:(03) 6224-8284 Fax:(03) 6224-8293
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 9130
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
DEPUTY PRESIDENT LEARY
C2002/2928
C2002/3002
AUSTRALIAN NURSING FEDERATION - TASMANIAN BRANCH
and
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
Application under section 170LW of the Act for
settlement of dispute (certification of agreement)
re clause 14 - rostering, patient acuity, staffing
mix of the agreement
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
and
AUSTRALIAN NURSING FEDERATION - TASMANIAN BRANCH
Application under section 170LW of the Act for
settlement of dispute (certification of agreement)
concerning the application of clause 13.3,
post-graduate allowance of the agreement
HOBART
2.30 PM, FRIDAY, 24 JANAURY 2003
Continued from 20.12.02
PN1350
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. These matters are listed for report. Are there any changes or additional appearances that we wish to record?
PN1351
MR BURROWS: If the Commission pleases, Burrows R. in place of Ike ..... from the ANF Federal Office, thank you.
PN1352
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Thank you.
PN1353
MR JACOBSON: If it please the Commission, with me is MR T. KLEYN from the HSUA. I am not sure if Tom has appeared in previous hearings, but just for the record I will put in another appearance.
PN1354
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I am not sure. It doesn't seem that he has, so he is now recorded as appearing, thank you. Ms Galloway, perhaps if I start with you.
PN1355
MS GALLOWAY: Yes. Happy to. I am happy to report that meetings between the Australian Nursing Federation, the Health and Community Services Union and the Minister for Health and Human Services and the department have continued since the last hearing date. To appropriately articulate the current status of negotiations I will read into transcript a copy of correspondence from the Minister for Health and Human Services to both unions, dated 23 January. If I could just table it please. I understand that the correspondence was faxed by the minister's office to the unions this morning, and if you are happy - - -
PN1356
PN1357
MS GALLOWAY: If you are happy to, I will read it into transcript.
PN1358
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. That is fine, thank you.
PN1359
MS GALLOWAY: It is addressed to both branch - it is addressed to Neroli Ellis as Branch Secretary and to Tim Jacobson as Assistant State Secretary dated 23 January 2003:
PN1360
I am writing in response to the matters you raised with me at our meeting of 20 January 2003 ...(reads)... many of the matters you have raised in your correspondence of 22 January erect further hurdles to agreement. I remain committed to progressing these matters to conclusion in a co-operative manner.
PN1361
And it is signed by David Llewellyn, MHA, Minister for Health and Human Services. And I end the quote there. The intent of this correspondence was relayed to the unions at a meeting between the unions and the minister last evening. At that meeting the ANF advised the minister it was their intention to seek from the Commission an arbitration program, and I understand that they have already foreshadowed that intention to the Commission.
PN1362
The government previously made submissions to the Commission that if, at the end of the conciliation process, there remained matters of disagreement between the unions and the government which could not be reconciled, and the Commission was satisfied that all appropriate conciliation processes were exhausted, arbitration on those matters of disagreement would not be opposed by the government. The Commission can see from the correspondence I read into transcript that the minister remains committed to progressing these matters to conclusion in a co-operative manner.
PN1363
The ANF have made it clear for some time that they want to have this entire matter arbitrated and not negotiated. But it is correct to say that progress has been made through the negotiation process and again the minister's letter confirms that. The government has agreed to provide an additional $3 million each year to cover the cost of an additional 50 full-time equivalent nurses, and in addition is ready to provide 61 more through the nursing hours per patient day model.
PN1364
The disagreement between the unions and the government is not about the number of staff or the cost of paying for the additional nurses. The disagreement is about the unions placing unreasonable demands and restrictions on how we move forward and implement a new set of arrangements. The core issues of staffing levels is not a matter of disagreement, the peripheral issues of implementation are. It is absurd to contemplate going to arbitration at this point. Concerted negotiation will see the resolution of this and not arbitration.
PN1365
The unions don't want to work through the difficult issues but the government is prepared to continue to negotiate, either separately or under the auspices of the AIRC, and I think at this point I will end my submission there.
PN1366
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What has happened since the last time you were here when, as I understood it, at least there was an in principle agreement. What do you mean that the issue is now implementation rather than the agreed position?
PN1367
MS GALLOWAY: There was, at the last time we reported back, and it seems like a very long time ago - - -
PN1368
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It does.
PN1369
MS GALLOWAY: - - - but it was just prior to Christmas.
PN1370
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1371
MS GALLOWAY: We reported back that negotiations had progressed substantially and that there was a range of matters that remained for the government to seek further clarification on, and we were to meet with the unions to seek that further clarification, and a meeting was subsequently held. As a result of that meeting we wrote to the unions on 9 January, and I won't read that letter into transcript because it is quite lengthy, but I will table it. It outlines the government's position as it was on 9 January to the unions.
PN1372
PN1373
MS GALLOWAY: So that letter was sent to the unions on 9 January to clearly articulate the government's position. There was unfortunately an omission just through an administrative error in terms of that the grievance procedure that was meant to be attached wasn't, and I subsequently wrote on 13 January forwarding the proposed grievance procedure. So perhaps if I table that as well.
PN1374
PN1375
MS GALLOWAY: Everybody has got these copies, I think.
PN1376
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I presume if they were posted one would suspect that they do have them.
PN1377
MS GALLOWAY: One would expect so.
PN1378
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1379
MS GALLOWAY: So that documentation has been provided and - - -
PN1380
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So this is a proposed grievance procedure, because that has been one of the issues.
PN1381
MS GALLOWAY: It has indeed.
PN1382
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1383
MS GALLOWAY: It has been the subject of a lot of discussion - - -
PN1384
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1385
MS GALLOWAY: - - - and there remains to be discussion about it, and we are prepared to continue discussions in relation to that matter. So from that point we have really reached the situation where now the unions wrote to us following receipt of the letter of 9 January opposing a number of points in that letter, and there was a subsequent meeting and we are at where we are now.
PN1386
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So the matters that have been agreed, which are the nursing hours per patient day whatever, all of those issues are still agreed?
PN1387
MS GALLOWAY: There is agreement in relation to the model itself - - -
PN1388
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1389
MS GALLOWAY: - - - and the application of it, and what that means in terms of FTE numbers.
PN1390
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Numbers and things, yes. That is all agreed?
PN1391
MS GALLOWAY: Yes. It is the issues - - -
PN1392
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you now saying it is just the way that is implemented?
PN1393
MS GALLOWAY: Yes.
PN1394
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But was there not agreement that it would be phased in over a period anyway?
PN1395
MS GALLOWAY: There has been reference all the way through these negotiations, including on transcript from the unions and ourselves, that there would need to be a phase in of this model. It is not practical or feasible for us to implement this overnight. As you know, nurses can't be plucked out of thin air.
PN1396
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, one of the things that I wanted to ask you, at some stage you were talking about the employment of a recruitment officer.
PN1397
MS GALLOWAY: That is right. In fact - - -
PN1398
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And I think you said that had been done.
PN1399
MS GALLOWAY: That has actually happened. She started in that position three months ago.
PN1400
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. So have there been a number of nurses who have shown an interest in coming back into the profession, or?
PN1401
MS GALLOWAY: The agency has continued to advertise for nurses and continues to recruit them to the point where we are still over budget in our establishment for nursing.
PN1402
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So - I mean, are the nurses out there? Is it - - -
PN1403
MS GALLOWAY: There are nurses out there. We are advertising for them, but as you know it is a very fluid work force and people trickle out one end and come in the other, but there are not the numbers out there in order for us to immediately recruit the number that you would need.
PN1404
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is the reason why I am asking.
PN1405
MS GALLOWAY: That is right.
PN1406
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean is it realistic - - -
PN1407
MS GALLOWAY: No.
PN1408
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - to say that it can be implemented immediately if the people aren't available?
PN1409
MS GALLOWAY: No.
PN1410
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is what I am trying to get to. Okay. All right. So your position is that there should be continued discussions as to the implementation now of what is the agreed position, and further discussion about what is to be a grievance procedure.
PN1411
MS GALLOWAY: The minister's letter makes clear two points which are important to the government in terms of progressing these matters, but we remain - - -
PN1412
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, can I just - - -
PN1413
MS GALLOWAY: - - - committed to negotiating through.
PN1414
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. In respect to one point that the minister has raised, and that is that there should be no industrial action, I don't have to remind the unions, because I have reminded them on a number of occasions that they cannot take industrial action while they are parties to that agreement, and I don't expect that they will, so may be he can rest in peace on that little bit of information. And they are madly nodding their heads in agreement, so - - -
PN1415
MS GALLOWAY: Yes. But we have actually had, as you know, industrial action during this period of the EBA about this very matter, so the government is looking for assurance that these industrial skirmishes don't continue, and that is a - - -
PN1416
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, if there is any industrial action, and of course I am of the view there should not be, if there is it will be dealt with very quickly, and you have rights that you can proceed with which have never fixed an industrial dispute, but make lawyers very fat and rich.
PN1417
MS GALLOWAY: No, that is right.
PN1418
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps not fat, but rich anyway.
PN1419
MS GALLOWAY: That is right. We are just seeking to avoid - we are seeking the unions' to commit to the process of resolving this - - -
PN1420
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1421
MS GALLOWAY: - - - in a co-operative manner, working with us to implement the model, working with us to recruit the nurses, and avoid the industrial skirmish. We designed the proposed grievance procedure to do that. It comes to the AIRC for resolution at the end of the process, and we think that that is a robust grievance procedure and while we are happy to discuss the minutiae of it, the wording of it, I think it is a robust grievance procedure.
PN1422
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Now, I raise that because I also have a letter from the ANF which talks about prospect of industrial unrest, which I was going to address, but I won't take it any further at this stage. Thank you.
PN1423
MS GALLOWAY: Thank you.
PN1424
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Who is going first? Ms Ellis?
PN1425
MS ELLIS: Thank you, your Honour. I would like to note that ANF doesn't actually accept all the areas of agreement as outlined in the minister's letter, which was just read on to transcript, but I don't intend to go into the details at this stage. It is accepted by - - -
PN1426
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you mean you don't accept - - -
PN1427
MS ELLIS: The letter that was faxed to us this morning - - -
PN1428
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Oh, yes.
PN1429
MS ELLIS: - - - and was read into transcript by Ms Galloway.
PN1430
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. You don't - - -
PN1431
MS ELLIS: No. Not the areas that the minister stated that we agreed to, I would like to just say that we don't agree to all those areas. He said that we do agree.
PN1432
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I would suggest you had better tell him what it is you don't agree with, because - - -
PN1433
MS ELLIS: Oh, we have only received it this morning but we will certainly be responding to it.
PN1434
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, how long is that going to take? I mean, if you say now you don't agree with what he thinks is the agreed position you had better let him know.
PN1435
MS ELLIS: Oh, we have been letting him know regularly about the agreed position on all points as soon as we receive documentation, and so we will be writing back to that.
PN1436
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps you would put it on the record. I would appreciate it if you could just tell me what it is that you say he thinks is agreed to and you now say you are not in agreement with him. It is a pretty important issue, because this happens every time, that there are submissions put that there is agreement, and then you say there isn't, so we keep going round and round in circles.
PN1437
MS ELLIS: Well, I think, with respect, that has been happening to us as well. You will see our position statement that we tabled that our understanding of the agreed position prior to Christmas, which was an agreed in principle position, and it you would like to compare that - - -
PN1438
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just tell me what it is you do not agree with in the letter.
PN1439
MS ELLIS: I don't agree with the position that we are constantly changing positions here, that - I mean, I am probably - - -
PN1440
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where does it say that?
PN1441
MS ELLIS: Page 2, halfway down page 2.
PN1442
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. That doesn't talk about what is agreed. You say that you don't agree with the minister's understanding as to what you have agreed. Tell me, or tell him, through Ms Galloway, what it is that you say he thinks you have agreed to and you say you haven't?
PN1443
MS ELLIS: The letter that we actually - I will just go through it point by point then.
PN1444
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, go through the letter and point it out.
PN1445
MS ELLIS: In paragraph 3 of page 2 it states there that we accept that in reality the 61 enrolled nurse positions that are now being proposed, not a mix of registered nurse and enrolled nurse. They are now - the position has changed following the in principle agreement to only being permanent enrolled nurse positions. Thus we agree that they can't be found overnight. When we actually - where it states we are calling for immediate implementation of the extra positions, we say all strategies to fill those nursing hours have been recognised to indicate safe nursing hours should be taken, so if they are registered nurses that need to be employed in those positions on a temporary basis then so be it. We are actually putting that position forward.
PN1446
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But are you asking for the immediate implementation of the extra positions? That is what is said in the letter.
PN1447
MS ELLIS: As soon as practically possible. We understand there will be a phase in period over a time frame of possibly a maximum 12 months, but as soon practically possible, and all measures should be take to actually put those nursing hours into position.
PN1448
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And those measures are - - -
PN1449
MS ELLIS: Those measures are - - -
PN1450
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - the recruitment officer, the training, the - - -
PN1451
MS ELLIS: No, no - and permanent registered nurses to be on - part-time registered nurses to be offered extra part-time shifts, fixed term contracts of registered nurses to be put in place. They are not offering any of these extra hours to registered nurses. They are only offering these permanent 61 positions to enrolled nurses. We do not have the enrolled nurses out there at the moment. They are then talking about putting through accelerated training programs and re-entry program.
PN1452
The re-entry program for enrolled nurses hasn't even been devised yet. It then needs to go to the Nursing Board to be accredited. It then needs to have the infrastructure to be implemented, which effectively could be - and in a three month course - so effectively for one enrolled nurse to be employed into these 61 positions would take nine months from if it started now.
PN1453
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that of course then means that the extra positions can't be immediately implemented.
PN1454
MS ELLIS: Well, we are saying they can be by registered nurses on a temporary basis. We are happy to - - -
PN1455
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But what does that mean?
PN1456
MS ELLIS: Just to explain the difference, a registered nurse is a - - -
PN1457
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I know the difference.
PN1458
MS ELLIS: Yes.
PN1459
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But if the people aren't there now.
PN1460
MS ELLIS: But we are saying the people are there, but they are going to be refused - - -
PN1461
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But where are?
PN1462
MS ELLIS: There are agency nurses there that the minister is refusing to employ, agency registered nurses ready to go.
PN1463
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Oh, I see. So we are back on that one again are we. So you say that all the agency nurses needed to make up this - - -
PN1464
MS ELLIS: No, I am saying not only agency nurses, but these extra shift, because we are saying the rosters should be implemented as soon as possible to enable extra nursing hours per ward, to enable safe staffing. Once these rosters have been put in place then every attempt should be made - - -
PN1465
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which rosters are these?
PN1466
MS ELLIS: These are the ones agreed to under the nursing hours per patient day model.
PN1467
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN1468
MS ELLIS: Every attempt - - -
PN1469
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you haven't got the extra nurses to do the rosters.
PN1470
MS ELLIS: But every attempt should be made, whether it is offering those extra shifts to part-time registered nurses. We have got an absolute commitment from the minister at the moment but no registered nurses will fill these extra positions, even on a temporary basis. That is not acceptable. It says unsustainable work loads out there. We are saying that every measure should be taken. There should not be a blanket rule that registered nurses won't be filling these 61 positions.
PN1471
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am still too sure what you are saying, but Ms Galloway can tell me if she understands it, and that is more important than me understanding it, I presume. You can explain it, can you? I don't guarantee I will understand it.
PN1472
MS GALLOWAY: I think there is an importance that we understand the difference between the implementation of the model itself, which means basically picking up the rosters that derive from the staffing model - - -
PN1473
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1474
MS GALLOWAY: - - - and putting them in place, and implementing the additional positions. What the unions have said to us now, which is different to a phasing in period, which has always been accepted, is that they want the rosters implemented now, which means if you put the rosters up on the wards they would be filled or could be filled potentially by additional shifts for part-time workers or overtime or call back, or additional shifts, or what have you. Now, they are saying that they don't necessarily want us to do overtime, but once you put the rosters up with vacancies on them, people in their hospital self roster largely, so they are they. That has never - - -
PN1475
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So it provides - are you saying that it would provide a potential for current nurses to do additional shifts - - -
PN1476
MS GALLOWAY: Yes.
PN1477
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - which is what this is all about, because they are complaining about the work load.
PN1478
MS GALLOWAY: Yes, exactly right. So it is counter to the whole argument.
PN1479
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.
PN1480
MS GALLOWAY: The government's position has been very clear on this, and we had agreement, we all understood, certainly from the government's position, from my position, that we were talking about a phasing in period of the model.
PN1481
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Of rosters of everything.
PN1482
MS GALLOWAY: Of the model, including the phasing in of the rosters, because the rosters are integral to the model, so it is important - - -
PN1483
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, they go hand in glove, don't they?
PN1484
MS GALLOWAY: Yes. So we are saying - - -
PN1485
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what is Ms Ellis meaning when she is talking about part-time nurses, agency nurses? Where do all these people hang around?
PN1486
MS GALLOWAY: I am not sure what she is talking about in terms of the agency nurses. We get that thrown up at us every now and then. I don't believe they are out there either at all, but that the issue for us is important to realise, and I remind us that there was an agreement to - sorry, phased in implementation of this model, which is - - -
PN1487
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And the model is the total model?
PN1488
MS GALLOWAY: Absolutely. The model itself you derive rosters from the model, and the staffing and the implementation of the extra positions. So the unions are now saying, as I understand it, they want the rosters implemented and they want them implemented now. That is not realistic and it has never been agreed.
PN1489
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I understand your position.
PN1490
MR JACOBSON: Well, can I actually clarify it, because I think there is a bit of a misrepresentation of our position here. What we did put back to the government this week in order to clarify our position, because from our perspective and the same has been said as far as the government is concerned of the union, that the stands continue to shift right throughout this process. In a genuine attempt to make our position very clear to the government we put back a paper on Wednesday of this week, which outlined the issues that we had and our position in relation to implementation.
PN1491
What we did say in that document is that there should be immediate implementation of the rosters, but, given that we understand the difficulties in terms of recruitment, that we are certainly prepared to talk about the phasing in on that basis, but where there is the capacity on a ward by ward basis to implement addition rostering arrangements, that that occur as a matter of priority, and we base that on the fact that everyone in this place has said on numerous occasions that there is a crisis, it needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed as a matter or urgency. We are not saying that tomorrow the department go out and find 61 nurses - - -
PN1492
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is what I am trying to establish.
PN1493
MR JACOBSON: - - - pluck them out of the sky and put them into the hospitals. What we are saying is that they make every genuine attempt as soon as possible to increase the number of hours in the public hospitals in line with the agreement that we have reached around the 61.
PN1494
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So where there is capacity?
PN1495
MR JACOBSON: At the end of the day - sorry?
PN1496
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where there is capacity?
PN1497
MR JACOBSON: Where there is the capacity, and we don't talk about overtime. That is a complete misrepresentation of our position, and if the agency can't control their overtime, in our view there is something very wrong. The situation in terms of the further phase in of the 61 enrolled nurse positions we have given a commitment to.
PN1498
We have said in the long term those positions will be enrolled nurse positions, but given the very, very lengthy time frame that it will take to employ and train those people, and the immediate issue in relation to staffing and work load, that there should be some capacity for the government for the put in place additional hours as quickly as possible. That is the sum total of the argument or the position that we put to them.
PN1499
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is it likely that there is capacity in some places for the rosters to be implemented?
PN1500
MR JACOBSON: Yes, there is. Certainly there are a number of part-time employees that may well be prepared to work additional hours. There may well be, because there is anticipation that at the end of this process there will be additional nursing positions in acute care, that there are people that may well be prepared that have current practising certificates to come back into acute care, and we believe that the only test of that is to get out and find out and advertise, and we will be flexible, we will be reasonable in terms of the time that it takes to do that, but we don't believe that we need to wait for nine months to train some enrolled nurses in order to implement a model.
PN1501
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But it is on a case by case basis virtually.
PN1502
MR JACOBSON: Yes.
PN1503
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In one area it may be possible, in others it may not.
PN1504
MR JACOBSON: Yes, that is right, and we are prepared to be flexible, we are prepared to be reasonable, we understand the difficulties, you know, in order for that to occur, and in terms of the phasing, the phasing of the enrolled nurse, the enrolled nurse training program is something that we would commit to.
PN1505
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Because it would seem to me that if you are saying the capacity is there everywhere now, I mean, the whole exercise has just been a farce.
PN1506
MR JACOBSON: Yes, that is right.
PN1507
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1508
MR JACOBSON: And that is not what we are saying.
PN1509
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So it is not there?
PN1510
MR JACOBSON: No, that is not what we are saying.
PN1511
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.
PN1512
MR JACOBSON: Complete misrepresentation.
PN1513
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So it is something that you would need to talk to, what, at - on the ground, or through the department, that in one particular area it may be worth looking at and implementing?
PN1514
MR JACOBSON: Yes. Yes.
PN1515
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I understand that. Do you understand that now?
PN1516
MS GALLOWAY: Well, I - - -
PN1517
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Only understand. You don't have to make a comment on it.
PN1518
MS GALLOWAY: I think I understand, but the issues with regard to flexibility and things I am curious about, because the - - -
PN1519
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. But it is obviously something that has got to be discussed at a local level - - -
PN1520
MS GALLOWAY: Well - - -
PN1521
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - as to whether there is capacity before you even go any further.
PN1522
MS GALLOWAY: But we are still talking about phase in. We are talking about phase in and have been all the way through this.
PN1523
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But this is a form of phasing.
PN1524
MS GALLOWAY: Well, I don't necessarily accept that it is, once you put the rosters in place.
PN1525
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, no. it is a phasing in in some areas where there may be capacity. Now, I don't know whether there is, and Mr Jacobson possibly doesn't know specifically at this stage, but is prepared to look at some areas where there may be the capacity for extra part-time work or whatever, and it may be possible. I don't know, but it is worth thinking about, but it has clarified the position. That is all I was trying to do, so that you know exactly what is being put.
PN1526
MR JACOBSON: And that is absolutely clear in the document that we put to the department. There can't be any ambiguity and the department is again seeking to re-write, you know, what it is that we have said. That is why we believe that it was appropriate to put our position to them in writing.
PN1527
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.
PN1528
MR JACOBSON: But even if you put it to them in writing there appears to be some inability to understand.
PN1529
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Okay. We can leave the commentary for another day, perhaps.
PN1530
MS ELLIS: And the phasing in period actually is totally reliant on the funding, which is over-riding this whole package.
PN1531
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is correct.
PN1532
MS ELLIS: The fact that the phasing in and the documentation we have received from the government states a period of three years and in negotiations certainly the minister has reiterated that he won't be employing more than the funded amount for each of those years, even though the nurses may be available, registered nurses may be available. He has only indicated the willingness to employ enrolled nurses, not registered nurses, even on a temporary basis, which is our concern when unsustainable work loads will be continuing.
PN1533
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, we have dealt with paragraph 3. What are the other areas where you say that the minister apparently things there is an agreed position, and there is not?
PN1534
MS ELLIS: I think that I would like to dispute the issues that are saying we are constantly changing the position.
PN1535
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am not interested in that. Just tell me what you don't agree with in the letter.
PN1536
MS ELLIS: The whole of this is put up as a package. We agreed to it in principle as a package before Christmas. It has now been totally changed following the meeting - - -
PN1537
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is has been repackaged or?
PN1538
MS ELLIS: No, it hasn't, it has been segmented.
PN1539
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No? What do you mean it has changed?
PN1540
MS ELLIS: The whole principle has changed now, and it is totally unacceptable in the current format. The meeting that we had in early January following the - - -
PN1541
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But totally unacceptable gets thrown around.
PN1542
MS ELLIS: Yes, but - - -
PN1543
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What does it mean, what is unacceptable?
PN1544
MS ELLIS: Can I just give you the background? The meeting in early January after the Industrial Relations Committee met, which was what we were waiting for, for approval of the in principle agreement. A new position came to the negotiating table and it was actually stated at that time that the parameters had changed following that Industrial Relations Committee. The letter of 9th - - -
PN1545
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is the government's Industrial Relations Committee?
PN1546
MS ELLIS: Yes. The letter of 9 January is - the offer of 9 January is significantly different to the agreed in principle position.
PN1547
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which is the letter of 9 January?
PN1548
MS ELLIS: I think Ms Galloway just tabled it.
PN1549
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.
PN1550
MS ELLIS: And I would like to - - -
PN1551
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, so - but I take it that the letter of 9 January has been the subject of further discussion between you?
PN1552
MS ELLIS: That is right, and I would like to actually tender our response in relation to that, dated 10 January.
PN1553
PN1554
MS ELLIS: Now, it is important for me to go back a stage now. It is accepted by all parties that public sector nurses in Tasmania have unsustainable work loads. An agreement to resolve this issue was through clause 14 of the Nurses Tasmania Public Sector Enterprise Agreement 2001 to take effect from 1 March 2001 and certified 25 May 2001. A steering committee commenced meetings in August 2001, with a time frame for completion as documented in the clause, 30 September 2001. Negotiations have now been continuing for 18 months.
PN1555
A number of hearings, conferences, reports back through the Commission have been heard since June 2002. There was a written commitment from the Minister of Health and Human Services dated 30 September 2002, expressing the finalisation of this issue by Christmas, and I would also like to tender that letter. On top of this written confirmation, it was also verbally reiterated regularly that the minister had every intention of finalising this issue by Christmas.
PN1556
PN1557
MS ELLIS: And the section out of that letter states - the letter was dated, as I said, 30 September, and I will quote from that letter:
PN1558
It is reasonable to assume that the negotiations could take from two to three months.
PN1559
ANF agreed to adjourn the listed report back on 15 January, pending the ministers return from annual leave, to have further discussions which have occurred this week, and as HACSU have mentioned, in an effort to clarify and progress negotiations we put a documented joint position from ANF and HACSU, dated 22 January, which I will also tender, clearly outlining out position, which was not accepted by the minister.
PN1560
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will mark that B6.
PN1561
PN1562
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is the letter which Ms Galloway was referring to - - -
PN1563
MS ELLIS: Yes.
PN1564
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - and to which the minister has responded?
PN1565
MS ELLIS: Yes.
PN1566
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1567
MS ELLIS: And at our meeting yesterday with the minister this was not accepted, and we have now received further correspondence him this morning, and the position as put forward by the government now is just not acceptable to ANF.
PN1568
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which particular part of it is not acceptable?
PN1569
MS ELLIS: The new position.
PN1570
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which is the new position?
PN1571
MS ELLIS: The new position - I will put a summary for it. I have actually tabled it at the last - on 20 December I tabled our understanding of the position, and if you refer to that as opposed to the new position documented by the government on 9 January it is significantly different.
PN1572
MS GALLOWAY: Can I just say that that document of 20 December was tabled without reference to us at all, and whilst it was headed in principle agreement it was certainly nothing more than the ANFs document and dot points, and I would contend that a lot of the dot points in that were not in fact agreed matters.
PN1573
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean, look, could I ask you do you really know what you did agree initially? Does anyone understand, or know what it was that was agreed?
PN1574
MR JACOBSON: We do.
PN1575
MS ELLIS: We actually quite clearly know what we have agreed upon and it is in the document dated 22 January. It is a joint agreement.
PN1576
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the - - -
PN1577
MS GALLOWAY: Well, in fact the document that we received on - well, the minister received on - or I did actually - on 22 January, is very different in terms of what we talked about in late December. There are new positions in here that we haven't seen before. There are restrictions on the implementation of the additional positions. They are say, well, Ms Ellis and Mr Jacobson are talking about the temporary employment of RNs, are saying, "Bring them in a temporary them in as temporary RNs," but you can never get rid of them and you can never change the number of RNs in the system, etcetera. I think what this whole thing has demonstrated this afternoon is that there are still issues which require further negotiations, concerted negotiations between the parties, because it is obvious that there is still mis-communication and prior to moving into arbitration - - -
PN1578
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think you need to sit down - - -
PN1579
MS GALLOWAY: - - - I would argue that that has to happen.
PN1580
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I mean, arbitration is the long way down the track.
PN1581
MS GALLOWAY: That is right.
PN1582
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have got to be satisfied that you can't settle it between yourselves, although I won't tell you what I think at the moment. But what I think you need to do is to sit down and work out what you have agreed, and hopefully it can stay agreed, and try and identify where you disagree, so that the issues in disagreement can then be identified and dealt with, and those are the things that will be arbitrated if necessary, and that is the absolute last step that we have to go to.
PN1583
But we keep going round in circles. Ms Ellis keeps talking about the whole thing is totally unacceptable, but I don't know what part of the whole thing, or whether it is the whole thing. There seems to be this total misunderstanding between you as to what it is you agreed initially and where you are now.
PN1584
MS ELLIS: Can I just - - -
PN1585
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean, are we just re-writing the whole thing every time we get together?
PN1586
MS ELLIS: No, not at all. Actually I think we are in a much clearer position than we were before.
PN1587
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It might be clear to you.
PN1588
MS ELLIS: No, well, it is documented now. The letter of 9 January, the areas that we are in total disagreement with are the fact now, which is our belief it is a new position - - -
PN1589
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is the letter of 9 January?
PN1590
MS ELLIS: From the minister to us - - -
PN1591
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.
PN1592
MS ELLIS: - - - following the Industrial Relations Committee meeting.
PN1593
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Yes.
PN1594
MS ELLIS: That the 61 new positions will only be enrolled nurse positions and that no registered nurses will be employed into these positions at all on a either temporary or permanent basis.
PN1595
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So what was the agreed position in your view?
PN1596
MS ELLIS: Our position was that they were nursing positions - - -
PN1597
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, what was the agreed position, not what was your position. What was the agreed position?
PN1598
MS ELLIS: The agreed position that they were 61 nursing positions, and that the statement there states that it will be implemented over three years. We have never agreed to it being implemented over three years. Our position has always been quite clearly as soon as practicably possible.
PN1599
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which could be three years. We don't know.
PN1600
MS ELLIS: We hadn't agreed to phase it in on a funded basis as 20 positions per year over the next three years of enrolled nurses only.
PN1601
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. So is the 61 nursing positions in dispute?
PN1602
MS ELLIS: No. The 61 nursing positions - - -
PN1603
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The 61 nursing positions - - -
PN1604
MS ELLIS: The only dispute is that there - - -
PN1605
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The make up of them? Okay. Was it agreed that they would be 61 enrolled or registered nurses, or was it agreed there would just be 61 positions and the make up would be something for further discussion?
PN1606
MS ELLIS: There were 61 nursing positions.
PN1607
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. So it has never been agreed that they would all be registered, they would all be enrolled, or they would be a mixture or either, it was just 61 positions.
PN1608
MS ELLIS: Nursing positions.
PN1609
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. So that had never been clarified?
PN1610
MS ELLIS: No.
PN1611
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Thank you. All right. So that is something that you need to put your heads around.
PN1612
MS ELLIS: The enrolled nurse - the offer of funded re-entry programs was made for both enrolled nurses and registered nurses. That position has now changed. It is just for enrolled nurses, although we have had a slight change at the last meeting this week, with the minister that he may consider if they don't fill all those positions for enrolled nurses he may consider if there is any funding left over for RNs. The skill mix is - - -
PN1613
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. So - sorry, you were saying the initial agreement was that the re-entry was for both?
PN1614
MS ELLIS: For both.
PN1615
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.
PN1616
MS ELLIS: Absolutely.
PN1617
MR JACOBSON: Yes.
PN1618
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1619
MS ELLIS: In fact we are actually assisting in developing the registered nurse re-entry program, where the enrolled nurse re-entry probably hasn't even been started to be developed at all, so that is how absolutely clear we were that the registered nurse program would be the first one to be accredited through the board, and obviously it was quite clearly stated that that would be - and even to the stage that they stated the classification hourly rate that these registered nurses would be paid to do the re-entry program. That has now been taken off the offer altogether with this new position. The skill mix - - -
PN1620
MS GALLOWAY: Sorry? What has been taken - - -
PN1621
MS ELLIS: The skill mix is 75 per cent, 25 per cent, hospital wide would be implemented. We have basically stated that we are clinically appropriate, and you can on some of the general wards have a 25 per cent EN ratio, but the new position from the department is that it will be acute sector wide the 25/75 per cent, so to compensate for some areas like intensive care which obviously can't have any enrolled nurses clinically, other areas may have to have a ratio of up to a ratio of 50 per cent enrolled nurses, which is absolutely professionally unsafe, and totally unacceptable to nurses.
PN1622
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, which is it, unsafe or unacceptable?
PN1623
MS ELLIS: Unsafe is unacceptable.
PN1624
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Who says it is unsafe? Is that sub-clinical standard or?
PN1625
MS ELLIS: Yes. I mean, on a professional clinic - - -
PN1626
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Or is this just the ANFs view of being unsafe?
PN1627
MS ELLIS: Absolutely no. From every nurses perspective it would be irresponsible for delegation of supervision of all of those enrolled nurses. At the moment we have the situation that two enrolled nurses and one RN on an acute ward is very difficult for the RN on night duty, as far as delegating and appropriate supervising the enrolled nurses, so it couldn't be rostered at that capacity.
PN1628
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So your view is that the 25 per cent ratio should be constant?
PN1629
MS ELLIS: 25 per cent, no. It is depending on clinical needs of each of the areas, so each of the wards, the general wards would need to make that clinical decision along with the clinical nurse manager whether they can actually have that skill mix. But certainly there should be actually no more than 25 per cent on any of the wards. There should be no need to - - -
PN1630
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, that is what I meant.
PN1631
MS ELLIS: Yes.
PN1632
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That there should be a minimum of 25 per cent.
PN1633
MS ELLIS: No a maximum.
PN1634
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: A maximum, sorry, of 25 per cent.
PN1635
MS ELLIS: A maximum of 25 percent.
PN1636
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. But it is a clinical mix as to the determination of who - - -
PN1637
MS ELLIS: Yes.
PN1638
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - and then if enrolled nurses are to be used a maximum of 25 percent, and that should be constant, that it shouldn't be a fluctuating figure. Is that - - -
PN1639
MS ELLIS: It should be constant and an absolute maximum, and that is a clinical decision. At the moment we are still in the position where the department, or the minister is stating it has to be implemented, with a 25 per cent across - so some wards may exceed, or some wards have to exceed 25 per cent enrolled nurses to cover the - to compensate for the areas that can't have any, so it is the desire of the government to bring it in across the whole sector, regardless of that.
PN1640
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So that is the comment, the sustainable mix, is it? Is that what you are talking about there?
PN1641
MS ELLIS: Yes.
PN1642
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.
PN1643
MS ELLIS: The three year commitment that is being put to no industrial action resulting in bed closures, as you have already alluded to, that that is covered with legislation, we are not prepared - we have actually in our document of the - that I have already tendered of our joint position, we have stated quite clearly in dot point 18 that once agreement on the grievance procedure is reached, the unions will commit to follow this procedure in relation to grievances relating to the implementation of the nursing hours per patient day model, as we have in dot point 6:
PN1644
Every attempt to avoid bed closures should be made.
PN1645
So have quite clearly reiterated our position there in relation to that, and we are not prepared to sign any other suggestions as it has been documented to us in relation to the clauses around industrial action.
PN1646
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you don't have to sign anything else. You have already signed an agreement.
PN1647
MR JACOBSON: That is right.
PN1648
MS ELLIS: That is being expressed to us though that we do have to sign another agreement as part of this package.
PN1649
MR JACOBSON: Can I just add to that? That is one of the areas that appears to have shifted around a little bit in terms of recent times. The initial request that was made from the government of us in relation to industrial action, was that the unions take no action, no action at all, to initiate bed closures, which in our view would be an abrogation of their responsibilities, particularly under Occupational Health and Safety and other legislation, which is obviously a completely unreasonable position for us to endorse. You know, that is a clear example where the ground shifts in terms of some of these issues as well, as far as the government is concerned.
PN1650
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Okay.
PN1651
MS ELLIS: And as Ms Galloway has alluded to the letter that was dated 25 September, which I shall also tender. I think that was for the Commission.
PN1652
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 25 September?
PN1653
MS ELLIS: Yes. In relation to the outstanding matters, and I will quote.
PN1654
PN1655
MS ELLIS:
PN1656
The government recognises that is any matters remain unresolved at the conclusion ...(reads)... ANF can continue discussions, but if they are going to work it will only work if there is a focus with arbitration dates set.
PN1657
We are not saying it is a closed door, if it please the Commission.
PN1658
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What are you asking the Commission to arbitrate?
PN1659
MS ELLIS: On the whole work loads issue.
PN1660
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the whole work load issue? What does that mean? Does that mean that you - - -
PN1661
MS ELLIS: We would actually like to address that at the directions hearing.
PN1662
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, then you are not getting a directions hearing until we know what it is that has got to be arbitrated.
PN1663
MS ELLIS: The areas in dispute are quite clear.
PN1664
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Look, I think you are too keen to throw the old arbitration angle in. Under the current legislation is really has to be the very last gasp. The department have conceded jurisdiction. That is one hurdle you don't have to get over. That has already been resolved, but it seems to me that you need to sit down and just work out what it is that you disagree. Because if you are going to bring something to arbitration you have to be pretty clear what it is you want arbitrated.
PN1665
At the moment you are just talking in general terms, and I don't know whether that is really what needs to be arbitrated. So, I mean, I won't put you on the spot now, you can think about that, and perhaps let me know at the end of this proceedings or some other time what it is specifically, because you want something arbitrated, the department has to be in a position to respond, so they also need to know what it is that has to be arbitrated. It has to be pretty specific.
PN1666
MS ELLIS: We actually need an end point to this. The negotiations have been going on for 18 months.
PN1667
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that is not uncommon. I mean negotiations go on for years in this place.
PN1668
MS ELLIS: But in the meantime the Tasmanian community and nurses are suffering. I mean, there have been no measures put in place to address the issue. In fact the removal of agency staff, the refusal to pay post graduate allowance, of lost nurses - - -
PN1669
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Okay. I have heard enough, thank you. We have heard all this speech before. Mr Jacobson?
PN1670
MS ELLIS: Do you want to speak to them?
PN1671
MR JACOBSON: Thank you, Deputy President. Well, I won't add too much. I did have a little speech to deliver, but not today.
PN1672
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I suppose it is your turn. I have got to give you a turn to be fair.
PN1673
MR JACOBSON: But just in terms of that matter in relation to what issues should be arbitrated the government in terms of the negotiations have made it very clear to us, throughout the negotiations, that their view is that in order to receive or reach an outcome that the negotiations would have to be based on a complete package, ie, if we are unable to reach agreement on a complete package there is no agreement. But in recent time, and certainly today on hearing that, we are able to reach agreement on certain things - - -
PN1674
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that is my understanding.
PN1675
MR JACOBSON: - - - and the government is prepared to concede on those, but it is just the matters that aren't agreed that the government would be seeking to arbitrate. We have negotiated on the basis that this is a complete package. From our perspective in the absence of a complete package we have no agreement. In terms of the model, in terms of those other matters, including the grievance procedure, the additional nurse educator positions, etcetera, etcetera, and it may well be that we will be seeking to have all of these issues arbitrated.
PN1676
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Isn't that, or isn't the fear that you are throwing out the baby with the bath water? I mean, if what Ms Galloway has said is correct, that the issue between you now is implementation?
PN1677
MR JACOBSON: No, in fact - - -
PN1678
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You don't say that is right?
PN1679
MR JACOBSON: Well, the issues, and let us not be - you know, the issues that are in disagreement at the moment are central to the model. They are central issues to the implementation or the model.
PN1680
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But there is agreement that the model be implemented?
PN1681
MR JACOBSON: Yes, but they are issues that are central to the application of the model, and central to us being able to reach agreement. If we are unable to do that, given that we have been extremely flexible in terms of the application of the model, we have been extremely flexible in terms of now conceding that the 61 positions would be enrolled nurse positions, but we see that as part of a package. If we haven't got a complete package that is, you know, acceptable - we believe that we did have an agreement that prior to Christmas.
PN1682
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, there seems to be the view of the department that you still have an agreement. Oh, but it is the implementation of that agreement?
PN1683
MR JACOBSON: Well, no, the letter of 9 January certainly for the first time made the government's position clear in relation to a number of things.
PN1684
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you say that that letter puts paid to any agreement that you thought you had?
PN1685
MR JACOBSON: Yes. Just in terms of background, and I don't really want to go over a whole lot of ground, but we had met with the department since late October on 12 separate occasions, at least 12 separate occasions. There have been other discussions in the interim, up to a day in duration, all those negotiations, quite intense, quite complex negotiations, with the minister on no less than half a dozen occasions throughout that period as well, in order to try to achieve an outcome.
PN1686
That we met with the minister on Monday this week, where in fact the issues that we were unable to reach agreement on, the issues that have been reported today, were discussed. But what was indicated to us on Monday was that the government would consider our position in relation to those threshold issues that we have discussed today, and report back prior to the hearing today.
PN1687
What we believed was of benefit for the government to ensure that there isn't a misunderstanding, which we have been accused of misunderstanding the government's position over time, to ensure that there isn't a misunderstanding that we would put back a document to the document, and that was the document on the 22nd, the joint position of the HSUA and the ANF, in relation to a number of matters. Now, it is not fair for the government to say that these matters haven't been discussed, because, you know, clearly in terms of the 61 figure, nursing figure, the fact that those positions would comprise entirely of enrolled nurse positions was never put to us either. They clarified their position, we clarified ours. That was why we believed - - -
PN1688
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But it was just 61 nursing positions, was it not?
PN1689
MR JACOBSON: It was 61 nursing, but - so it is not fair to say our position has moved. What we did is clarified our position. We are not seeking to have the 61 positions advertised and filled tomorrow afternoon. We are quite happy to talk about phasing in, but we believe that there should be some genuine attempts to fill the vacancies as quickly as possible.
PN1690
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is on the basis of capacity where the rosters can be implemented?
PN1691
MR JACOBSON: That's right. Yes.
PN1692
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: With some tweaking on either side?
PN1693
MR JACOBSON: Yes, yes. Just going through my notes so I don't go over the same ground. The government's position as it stands to date will not deliver one additional nurse into public hospitals for at least nine months. The minister in October last year, on 18 October, wrote to us, and you will recall the difficulties that we had with the government in relation to the introduction of extended care assistance into public hospitals, and in the letter dated 18 October - - -
PN1694
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I remember the issue.
PN1695
MR JACOBSON: - - - and I will hand you - you probably have already got this letter.
PN1696
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't concede its difficulties.
PN1697
MR JACOBSON: But I want to make a point here. If you look down the right hand side of the page I will make that - there is a mark next to a paragraph.
PN1698
PN1699
MR JACOBSON: Where the government, the minister made it clear that:
PN1700
The current proposal, ie, the introduction of care assistance is an interim arrangement designed to ease the pressure on overworked nurses.
PN1701
And it goes on. Clearly at that point the minister had a view that the issue needed to be addressed, and we needed to put people in the work place to address the nursing work load issue. There was - - -
PN1702
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think there is any disagreement between you on that, is there, that there needs to be something done?
PN1703
MR JACOBSON: But there was an immediate pressure at the time put on us to agree to implement another category of staff into public hospitals - - -
PN1704
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: On a short term basis.
PN1705
MR JACOBSON: - - - on a short terms basis, yes. That is what we are arguing.
PN1706
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1707
MR JACOBSON: On a short term basis to relieve the work load pressures on nurses. That is all we are asking for now. It is no different. The facts are that we know that it will be difficult to recruit people, but we don't believe that the agency or government should stall the process of advertising until some significant budgeted milestone occurs down the track.
PN1708
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But has that happened? I understood that there was -this recruitment officer position was doing whatever recruitment officer positions do?
PN1709
MR JACOBSON: Well, the recruitment officer's position is really only doing what the Human Resources Department - other than some work on some of the issues that we have been discussing, and I don't want to - - -
PN1710
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But isn't it a specific position looking for nursing staff?
PN1711
MR JACOBSON: Yes. But we haven't got 61 additional nurses today to recruit.
PN1712
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No. But, I mean, that is the question, isn't it?
PN1713
MR JACOBSON: Yes.
PN1714
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Even if the government agreed to all of the things that you are saying and said, "Yes, we will implement it tomorrow" - - -
PN1715
MR JACOBSON: Yes.
PN1716
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - are we going to get 61 nurses suddenly drop out of the sky?
PN1717
MR JACOBSON: But we are prepared to be completely reasonable about that, but we don't believe that we need to wait - - -
PN1718
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you tell them what you think is reasonable.
PN1719
MR JACOBSON: Well, we have been through it, we have been round it, but that is the issue.
PN1720
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. But doesn't it indicate there has to be some sort of phasing in?
PN1721
MR JACOBSON: Yes.
PN1722
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean, I don't want to talk in terms of weeks, months or years, but there obviously has to be a very orderly process that will be phased in to try and address the problems, and there are problems - - -
PN1723
MR JACOBSON: That is right.
PN1724
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - as soon as possible.
PN1725
MR JACOBSON: And we see it.
PN1726
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And why are we arguing, "Well, we don't want 12 months," and "We want three years"? I mean, cant' we just have some orderly process that has a commonsense bottom line?
PN1727
MR JACOBSON: That is a question that I would ask too, Deputy President. We are of the same opinion as the Nurses Federation in terms of arbitration. The position of the government from Monday until now hasn't changed, that we have some elementary and significant difficulties in terms of the application of this, you know, this agreement. But we - it certainly appears at this point that we are unable to reach agreement, and I certainly agree with the ANF in terms of the time that has passed, and the fact that everyone concedes that there is an issue, and what we certainly would like, certainly seek that the Commission provide for, is dates for hearing, but in the meantime we are certainly still keen to sit down and try to negotiate an outcome. We believe, and we have always said, that negotiating an outcome will deliver nurses to the public hospital system quicker than going through arbitration. That is our preferred position.
PN1728
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You are possibly right.
PN1729
MR JACOBSON: But certainly in the absence of doing that, and the fact that time is running out, we had agreement of December from the minister in terms of trying to resolve these issues. We are now into late January. Holding off arbitration for too much longer is going to be problematic for all the parties. If it please the Commission.
PN1730
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thank you.
PN1731
MR BURROWS: I am sorry, your Honour.
PN1732
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Burrows?
PN1733
MR BURROWS: I wonder if I could just ask if we could have a very short adjournment, so I can discuss something with the NU colleagues?
PN1734
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do we want to hear from Ms Galloway first, or?
PN1735
MR BORROWS: Oh, I assume if the government is going to oppose the dates of arbitration.
PN1736
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am not talking about arbitration, so - - -
PN1737
MR BURROWS: No. Well, what I want to discuss with my colleagues is something which may be an alternate - it may assist.
PN1738
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN1739
MR BURROWS: But only - quite honestly, we would only need five minutes.
PN1740
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. That is fine. Okay, I will give you five minutes - - -
PN1741
MR BURROWS: Thank you.
PN1742
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - and then come back and we will continue on. Thanks.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.25pm]
RESUMED [3.32pm]
PN1743
MR BURROWS: Thank you for the adjournment. What we were discussing - well, perhaps if I go back a step. We had a similar, probably bigger and more bitter dispute in Victoria, as you are probably aware, in the public sector, over work loads and ultimately it was resolved, and in fact some three and a half thousand nurses have been attracted back into the system, so it can be done. What we did during the dispute, and what I am proposing with the endorsement of the Commission and the other parties, it is something we did when we got bogged down in the Victorian dispute.
PN1744
The unions sought a compulsory conference rather than a report back in a two or three week period. Before that conference the unions would propose to identify the outstanding issues, which would basically be an enlargement of the position put in the letter of 22 January, which is tabled, the front part signed by Neroli Ellis and Chris Brown.
PN1745
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1746
MR BURROWS: And also obviously we respond to matters raised in the letter of 23 January. So what we would seek to do is, under your chair, is have a document identifying issues and what our belief is of our position and the government's position. We propose to then work through those with your assistance, your Honour, and at the end of that process I think one way or the other we would be able to demonstrate that conciliation has either failed, which we are not setting out with that as the aim, or alternatively we will have an agreement on at least certain items, and whether that constitutes enough then to proceed, or whether again we renew our submissions for arbitration is something for the future. So in essence, and HACSU have agreed - we haven't discussed it obviously with the employers, but a conference chaired by you, subject to your availability in two to three weeks time, and in the interim, hopefully within seven days, we would be able to provide a joint union document to form the basis of working through items at that conference.
PN1747
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Look, I agree that it has got to be resolved, the sooner the better, but I am just not comfortable at the moment that the agreement that was is still not agreed, and that is what needs to be identified. That is what I am trying to get to. Identify where the areas of disagreement are and we can move on from there, but I am happy to set some time frames.
PN1748
MR BURROWS: I think we need both. I think we need the areas of agreement as well - - -
PN1749
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. Well, one should give the other.
PN1750
MR BURROWS: - - - to make sure you are not assumed that you are agreed, yes.
PN1751
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is right. There needs to be somebody sitting down and documenting exactly so everybody knows, this is agreed and we hopefully don't talk about that again, and these are the areas that are not, and then we can have some sort of conferences, and if there is no way that they are going to be sorted out between you, that is when we proceed down arbitration. But I am happy to put some time frame on that process.
PN1752
MR BURROWS: Thank you, your Honour.
PN1753
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. What is the position of the department? I suppose you can go right back and respond and then - - -
PN1754
MS GALLOWAY: No. I am choosing not to. We will be here until tomorrow morning.
PN1755
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, you won't.
PN1756
MS GALLOWAY: Yes. It is a long weekend. There is no point to it quite clearly at this point. We are happy to go through the process of developing documents that clearly articulate what is agreed and what at this point isn't agreed, and to continue to negotiate on those matters that require clarification and further negotiation with a view to - - -
PN1757
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I am not satisfied that there is no agreement. I am sure there are areas that are agreed, and maybe there is clarification that needs to be done about the way it is implemented and from there on in. But I certainly wouldn't be supporting throwing the whole lot out and just going straight to - well, I wouldn't be able to under the act to do that.
PN1758
MS GALLOWAY: I am not sure whether we need a compulsory conference or what have you - - -
PN1759
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They always turn up.
PN1760
MS GALLOWAY: - - - but I am happy to go through that process and report back to the Commission further on that.
PN1761
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. All right. You wanted to leave it at that?
PN1762
MS GALLOWAY: Yes.
PN1763
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Did you want to add anything? You agree with what Mr Burrows put?
PN1764
MR JACOBSON: Yes.
PN1765
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You obviously do. Tuesday, 11 February, we shall meet at 9.30 in the morning. By that time the parties will have had possibly a number of discussions, but they will have some agreed documents which will demonstrate the areas where they do have agreement that we can put to one side and hopefully not revisit, and that should identify areas where there is disagreement, which may only about implementation, I am not too sure. But at least we can identify where there is disagreement and we will spend the day, or what part of it is necessary, working our way through that to see whether we can come to some resolution.
PN1766
If at the end of that day it is pretty clear what is outstanding and what needs to be determined, that is when we will start thinking about arbitration. So that doesn't give you much time, but I know that you like to spend days together talking to each other, so you have got another few ahead of you, but on that day we should have some pretty positive positions as to where we are going. All right. Unless anyone has anything else they would like to add I will adjourn the proceedings until 9.30. It doesn't need to be a compulsory conference. As I say, they always turn up.
PN1767
MR BURROWS: The bottom side it is a compulsory nature more than it is a conciliation conference, rather than a report back - - -
PN1768
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. No, it will be a - - -
PN1769
MR BURROWS: - - - so that we can comply with the - - -
PN1770
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It will certainly be a conciliation conference and if someone can provide me with a copy of the documents prior so that I can get my head around whatever it is that we need to be talking about.
PN1771
MR BURROWS: Yes. We will certainly have a factor do that, your Honour.
PN1772
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. That would be good. Okay, on that basis we will adjourn until 9.30 on 11 February, thank you.
ADJOURNED UNTIL 11 FEBRUARY 2003 [3.40pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #G4 CORRESPONDENCE FROM THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES TO BOTH UNIONS, DATED 23 JANUARY PN1357
EXHIBIT #G5 LETTER FROM DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES TO THE UNIONS DATED 9 JANUARY 2003 PN1373
EXHIBIT #G6 PROPOSED GRIEVANCE PROCEDURE PN1375
EXHIBIT #B4 LETTER FROM AUSTRALIAN NURSING FEDERATION TASMANIAN BRANCH TO THE MINISTER DATED 10 JANUARY PN1554
EXHIBIT #B5 LETTER FROM MINISTER OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES DATED 30 SEPTEMBER 2002 PN1557
EXHIBIT #B6 JOINT LETTER FROM ANF AND HACSU DATED 22 JANUARY PN1562
EXHIBIT #B7 LETTER DATED 25 SEPTEMBER PN1655
EXHIBIT #J1 LETTER FROM THE MINISTER DATED 18 OCTOBER 2002 PN1699
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