C2003/5195, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 4476 (8 October 2003)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 4775

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER BLAIR

C2003/5195

COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC,
ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING
AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA

and

WILSON TRANSFORMER COMPANY

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re EBA negotiations

MELBOURNE

11.06 AM, MONDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER 2003

Continued from 26.8.03

PN47

THE COMMISSIONER: Any change in appearances, please?

PN48

MR I. THOMAS: I am replacing Terry Bradley from the AMWU.

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Thomas. Now, Mr Pill.

PN50

MR S. PILL: Commissioner, perhaps for the record, I also appear without Mr Winkworth today. I think he was on the record last time.

PN51

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Who would like to lead off? The Commission called the matter back on just to see where the parties were at. Don't all rush. I mean I am not fussed as to who leads off.

PN52

MR PILL: I am happy to give you a general overview, if you like, Commissioner.

PN53

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Pill.

PN54

MR PILL: Commissioner, when we were last before you the company gave a commitment to put a certain position, which it had put in conference, in writing and that was done and I am actually instructed to hand up to you a copy of that letter. It is stapled as one document. Strictly it is two documents. It is a letter of 12 September 2003 addressed to Mr Terry Bradley on behalf of the AMWU and Mr Bruce Sharp of the CEPU and it outlines the position, and attached to that document is a document entitled Wilson Transformer Company Power Business Unit Enterprise Agreement 2003. That covering letter records the position which was put by the company.

PN55

Now, that position was put, Commissioner, on the understanding that the unions had agreed to put that position to a meeting of its members on Tuesday or Wednesday of last week, and indeed, perhaps by reference to that letter you will see under paragraph 1(a) the company's position was that subject to the position set out in the attached document and this letter being accepted and endorsed by employees at the next mass meeting, then upon certification of the agreement the first 5 per cent wage increase would be paid with effect from today, being 12 September 2003. Now, that didn't happen.

PN56

What did happen was the company was advised by a number of the union delegates on the Monday that a meeting was going to occur on Wednesday, but were then subsequently advised that Mr Sharp was in Queensland at a conference and that Mr Bradley was on leave and that the earliest that any meeting could occur was on Friday afternoon and that that meeting would be conducted by union officials other than Mr Sharp and Mr Bradley. If we pause there, the company is disappointed by, at least on the company's understanding, the union's not doing what they said they would do.

PN57

The company's perception is that the union perhaps is not particularly serious at the moment about trying to reach an agreement. The meeting which ultimately occurred, Commissioner, I am instructed did take place on Friday afternoon and lasted for approximately five minutes. I might need to hear from the other end of the table as to what they say occurred, but the company's understanding is that the officials who conducted the meeting were not fully briefed as to what the proposal was that had been put by the company and there was certainly nothing in the nature of debate or a vote.

PN58

The company wishes to make it clear, I guess, both to the Commission and to the other parties that ultimately the agreement and the proposal that has been put doesn't contain any additional flexibilities for the company. There is nothing specific in there that is to the benefit of the company. Any sort of delay is really to the detriment of the members and employees in the sense that it just delays the pay increase. The company has a view as to how this matter should proceed from here, but perhaps before I put that it might be appropriate to hear what happened on Friday.

PN59

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thanks, Mr Pill. Mr Sharp.

PN60

MR SHARP: Thank you, Commissioner. Just to confirm that we did receive the company's position as outlined by our learned friend over there on last Friday, as requested - not last Friday - I believe it was the 12th. We did receive it on the 12th, Commissioner. Due to the availability of officers, myself also being absent on the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of last week, and also Mr Bradley being on leave, a number of officers were away from the CEPU - or ETU as it is known here in Victoria, so we had trouble allocating resources to this matter. We do take this matter very seriously.

PN61

We also wish to acknowledge that we are substantially apart on key issues that the employees have raised concerns with: entitlements, income protection and so forth. My understanding of the meeting that occurred on last Friday, Mr Rick Conduit appeared there on behalf of the Electrical Trades Union. We put the company's outline position to the membership and just gave them a report back on where it was, asked for questions. No questions were asked because fundamentally, Commissioner, it is exactly the same position as was rejected twice in a secret ballot.

PN62

Fair enough that the pay quantums may have been rejigged a little bit, but understanding that when the people saw it, while the company may continue to say that there is substantial movement on their behalf, the membership do not see it as such and even when the company conducted small group briefings there was still no substantial position that had shifted on the company's behalf. The employees are saying we haven't seen any substantial movement. They are still very keen on the entitlement issue, very keen on the income protection issue and also the retrospectivity and also the date of expiration. So that is where it stands at the moment, Commissioner.

PN63

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Thomas.

PN64

MR THOMAS: This is my first matter with Wilson Transformer. I have only taken over today really from Terry Bradley.

PN65

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, so I take it from that you can't add anything?

PN66

MR THOMAS: No. I take it the position is the same as the ETU.

PN67

THE COMMISSIONER: Support the ETU, okay. Thank you for that. Yes, Mr Pill, you said you - or the company had a view as to how to move forward.

PN68

MR PILL: Subject to any suggestions that the Commission may have, Commissioner, notwithstanding what Mr Sharp has put, what the company wishes to make clear is that the company considers it has, one, negotiated in good faith, two, that it has made some substantial concessions, three, I would reiterate matters which have been put before, which is to get to the position of putting up a proposal as an LK agreement the company obviously wanted to give itself a chance of getting that across the line and, therefore, put forward a proposal that was very much at the high end of where it was in a position to negotiate to.

PN69

The company is not going to make any further concessions in relation to the matters that Mr Sharp has identified. But against the background of what occurred last week - and I appreciate that Mr Sharp wasn't there - but on the company's understanding of that meeting there has not been any legitimate or genuine attempt on the union's part to actually put the company's position to its members. What we, therefore, seek today is some directions from the Commission. We seek direction - I should preface the directions by saying that the company is prepared to extend the position which was put in its letter of 12 September until the end of this week, including the willingness to pay the first salary increase effective from 12 September 2003.

PN70

But the directions that we would seek having regard to that are one, that the unions conduct a meeting of their members prior to Friday at which the company's proposal as set out in the letter of 12 September and the attached document; two, we would seek direction that that proposal be recommended and three, perhaps not by way of direction, but that this matter be adjourned to a further report back this Friday.

PN71

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Sharp, what do you say about that?

PN72

MR SHARP: Commissioner, we are quite happy to have a meeting with members to put forward the company's position. We see no reason why we need a direction to do so. A direction to recommend the agreement is something that the unions will not - would not entertain. I am not even sure as to the relevance of it so to speak. To be directed to recommend an agreement is something I think that - forgive me, Commissioner, not being a lawyer - that is beyond the scope of the Act to speak of. If the Commission feels that is necessary then we will be bound by the Commission's decision, naturally, but if the company wishes us to have a meeting and put the position forward we are quite happy to do that and do that prior to Friday, Commissioner.

PN73

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Thank you. You concur with that, Mr Thomas?

PN74

MR THOMAS: Yes.

PN75

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, the Commission will direct that the union meet with its members before Friday, 25 September 2003 to put the company's position to its members in full. I think the position in terms of directing that the union recommend that - I would have to say it is not a novel position but it is one that the Commission isn't prepared to contemplate because the Commission is not bound by the agreement, so it doesn't know whether in the minds of the union members it is a fair and reasonable agreement to recommend or to direct the union to recommend it. I must say before I died and got resurrected as a Commissioner no one ever put that to me, and since I have been a Commissioner I have never entertained directing a union to recommend a proposal.

PN76

The Commission may form a view that the proposal is the best they are going to get and the Commission may take a position, as it did a few weeks ago, to say to the union, look, take it back to your members because the Commission is prepared to recommend it to you. I am not prepared though to go to the extent where I direct the union to recommend. What I would like, though, is this. The union say that there are four outstanding issues. There is the issue of income protection. There is the issue of security of entitlements. There is the issue of retrospectivity and there is the issue of the operative date, as I understand it.

PN77

Now, at the end of the day the parties either reach an agreement or they don't. If it is the objective to reach an agreement then it may be that all four of those issues that the union has identified as being outstanding may not be achievable as all four. So it is a question of then saying, well, what is our fall back position, what really are the one, two issues that we really want as an outcome to add to the wages outcome of this agreement and the other things? If those could be identified - and I will have a report back on Friday - if they could be identified as to really what are the priorities and what is the bottom line in terms of the union, out of those outstanding four issues, then it may help progress the matter a bit further. So if that could be put to your members to see what their bottom line is, Mr Sharp, that would help, I think.

PN78

MR SHARP: Commissioner, I think that would be achievable at the next mass meeting.

PN79

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you. What I will do is have a report back - sorry, Friday is callover day and I have had a couple of cases pulled out, but I have slotted in an 8.30 matter and I understand the next callover matter is 10.30, so what I will do is put you in 9.30, if that is okay, to get a report back and then if need be we can do some programming if we think there is some progress to be made, or if the parties wanted to have some discussions amongst themselves on that day, well, then, that is fine.

PN80

If need be we can make some arrangements for some facilities. Mr Sharp, if you could advise the company of the union's position - the outcome of your meeting and if you could advise the Commission as well that would be of assistance.

PN81

MR SHARP: Yes, Commissioner.

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. Is 9.30 a convenient time for the parties - Mr Pill and Mr Sharp - yes. Mr Thomas, is that okay?

PN83

MR THOMAS: Yes.

PN84

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. If the union could conduct these meetings then, thanks, before then and then we will have a report back at 9.30 on Friday, the 26th. The Commission will stand adjourned.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 2003 [11.23am]