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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 4797
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER SMITH
C2002/926
C2002/5778
METAL, ENGINEERING AND ASSOCIATED
INDUSTRIES AWARD 1998
Application under section 33 on the
Commission's own motion re school
based apprenticeship clause
NATIONAL BUILDING AND CONSTRUCTION
INDUSTRY AWARD 2000
Application under section 33 on the
Commission's own motion re school
based apprenticeship clause
MELBOURNE
10.12 AM, TUESDAY, 23 SEPTEMBER 2003
Continued from 27.5.03
PN124
THE COMMISSIONER: Any change in appearances?
PN125
MR STEWART: On this occasion, Commissioner, I appear without Mr Stephens.
PN126
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN127
MS K. WILD: I appear on behalf of the AMWU.
PN128
MR CALVER: Ms Wild, thank you very much.
PN129
MR J. INGRAM: Commissioner, I wasn't at the directions hearing. I am from the CEPU.
PN130
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Ingram. I should indicate firstly, in relation to the principle 10 matter that was raised, the President has decided that it should remain with me. So, has there been any discussion about how we will proceed this morning?
PN131
MR CALVER: Yes, Commissioner.
PN132
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Calver.
PN133
MR CALVER: If it please the Commission, I am afraid that there has been a slight disagreement between myself and the CFMEU, and I might actually address you on that matter. I can say, however, Commissioner, that we have agreed to exclude witnesses and I would ask that the witnesses who are to give evidence in the matter wait outside now.
PN134
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN135
MR CALVER: If it please the Commission, if you agree with the exclusion of witnesses. Thank you, Commissioner. Look, Commissioner, what it comes down to is this, that we say these proceedings were brought on at the Commission's own motion. However now there is an application before the Commission. There is an application. That application has been made by the CFMEU. We say it is the applicant, and therefore it should take the onus, and it should go first.
PN136
THE COMMISSIONER: What, the 111(1)(g) file?
PN137
MR CALVER: The 111(1)(g). It should go first, it should present its evidence and its case in support. We are, however, prepared to concede that after Mr Fraser has given his evidence, our witnesses will give their evidence. But then as the applicant, we believe that the CFMEU should proceed first. If I might address you, just very shortly on that matter, the terms of the application are set out at page 25 of the CFMEUs first written submission, dated 1 August 2003, in section 8 of that submission, which is not yet formally before you, however has been filed and served.
PN138
Obviously the applications are made under 111(1)(g)(iii). That section, as you are well aware, Commissioner, provides it is a matter of particular power of the Commission it may dismiss a matter or part of a matter, or refrain from further hearing or from determining the industrial dispute or part of the industrial dispute, if it appears that further proceedings are not necessary or desirable in the public interest. It is an assessment of competing interests.
PN139
As an applicant, we contend that the CFMEU must put its case to the Commission first. There is ample authority of this Commission that is quite clear that the law - there exists an onus upon the applicant pursuant to section 111(1)(g) to persuade the Commission that jurisdiction should not be exercised. Print Q9115, senior five member Full Bench, held that the need for the applicant to be vested with this onus was clear. The CFMEU should therefore commence its case and discharge the onus placed upon it.
PN140
The existence of this onus and the discussions I have had with Mr Maxwell should not be a surprise to the CFMEU. We are not breaching or transgressing any principles of evidence. In paragraph 18 of PR918017, cited by the CFMEU and relied upon by the CFMEU in paragraph 8.2 of its written submission, Commissioner Cargill relies upon a decision of Munro J that was confirmed on appeal by a Full Bench in print M9074. In relation to the case relied upon by the CFMEU, that is the Graphic Arts General Award 2000 case, the print number I have just mentioned, PR918017, there is - the last paragraph in page 30 of 34 of that decision is on point, and I will just turn to that, Commissioner. In that case, in that paragraph, it is plain that there is an overall requirement, and I am quoting:
PN141
...for an applicant to satisfy the Commission that a ground for the application has been made out.
PN142
The onus is on the CFMEU to establish each of the six grounds set out in paragraph 8.3 of its written submission, which cover the substance of this case in their entirety. It should therefore commence the arguments this morning, address each of those matters which should then be responded to by the MBA and other respondents in respect of the application. The CFMEU should go first to discharge this onus, if it please the Commission.
PN143
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Any other submissions on that point before I ask Mr Maxwell?
PN144
MR STEWART: Commissioner, would it be appropriate at this time to address the issue of whether that application from the CFMEU ought to be dealt with sequentially to the major issue in the - - -
PN145
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is what I was going to ask Mr Maxwell directly. Do you ask me to decide the point independently of the other matters, Mr Maxwell?
PN146
MR MAXWELL: No, we don't, Commissioner.
PN147
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. In that case, I think what we will do is this, that those in favour of the matter that I have called on of my own motion, I will hear from them first. Those opposed to it I will hear second. Then those in favour can respond. On the question of onus, to the extent that that is helpful in proceedings such as this - of course 111(1)(g) point there is some onus on the person advancing that point to make good the point.
PN148
Given that you are not seeking to have me decide the point independently of the merit argument, I think the best course is to have all the arguments together, review all the arguments in favour, review all the arguments against, including the 111(1)(g) point, and then the matter can be determined, rather than trying to segment it so that I hear a 111(1)(g) point, a reply, then hear arguments in favour and a reply - I think it would just get messy if we go down that path. So that is the way we will progress this morning. Now who wishes to lead off? Well don't all rush at me at once.
PN149
MR CALVER: Can you give us one minute, Commissioner, sorry.
PN150
THE COMMISSIONER: Of course, yes, Mr Calver.
PN151
MR STEWART: Actually, one issue if we could resolve - we haven't - in relation to the common exhibit book.
PN152
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN153
MR STEWART: Commissioner, we filed a folder 2 with the common exhibit book, and we noted that two of the documents in that folder 2 - that it had not yet been resolved between ourselves and the CFMEU as to whether or not they would be accepted as common exhibits. I have spoken to Mr Maxwell this morning, and he has agreed that they be common exhibits in this case.
PN154
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So we have got folder 1 and folder 2, as common exhibits.
PN155
MR STEWART: And folder 3 from the CFMEU as well.
PN156
PN157
THE COMMISSIONER: And if anybody - I am sorry, anybody wishing to address those, if they can direct me to either 1, 2 or 3 and where it is. Thank you. Yes, Mr Harris.
PN158
MR HARRIS: Commissioner, before we proceed with the examination of witnesses, may I raise the issue of the Metals Award?
PN159
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN160
MR HARRIS: I have had a discussion with the CEPU this morning regarding that award. In relation to that award, we would seek to proceed in accordance with the agreement that was reached with the parties on that award in the primary determination of that award some time ago, that is that we would not disturb the ongoing exemption for electrical training packages in that award at this time. I think I have agreement from the CEPU that we proceed on that basis.
PN161
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Goodbye, Mr Ingram.
PN162
MR INGRAM: Also plumbing, I might add, was also agreed.
PN163
THE COMMISSIONER: Plumbing.
PN164
MR HARRIS: Commissioner, I might, following this hearing, provide a copy of the draft order to my friend and if he has any objections to the order then we will make the necessary changes. But we will seek to continue to have it proceed on a consent basis.
PN165
THE COMMISSIONER: So that we won't include electricians or plumbers at this stage.
PN166
MR HARRIS: If that is - if that objection is maintained by the CEPU, that is the case.
PN167
MR INGRAM: If that is what arrives on our - by fax, or other methods, Commissioner, in regards to the exemption of electrical, electronic and plumbing trades, we would agree with that.
PN168
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Indeed you are excused from further attendance if that is convenient to you. If not, you are free to remain.
PN169
MR INGRAM: Okay, thank you.
PN170
THE COMMISSIONER: Whichever you find more exciting. Yes, Mr Calver.
PN171
MR CALVER: I have had a discussion with my friend, Mr Maxwell. Look, we will go first, Commissioner, and call Mr Wilson and then I will hand over to my friend from ITCHY who will call Mr Balzary, and then we will call, via the CFMEU, Mr Fraser.
PN172
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well.
PN173
MR CALVER: So if - without further ado, if it please the Commission, could - - -
PN174
THE COMMISSIONER: Well perhaps what I might do - - -
PN175
MR CALVER: Sorry, yes, certainly.
PN176
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - first, I am sorry, is that I might mark your submissions at this stage.
PN177
MR CALVER: Certainly. If you would like to go through the process of marking now, that is entirely convenient, Commissioner.
PN178
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Now there are - - -
PN179
MR CALVER: Three, sir.
PN180
THE COMMISSIONER: You have got the submissions dated 30 July. Is that the first one?
PN181
MR CALVER: 13 June.
PN182
THE COMMISSIONER: 13 June, I am sorry.
PN183
MR CALVER: Yes. Apropos of that, Commissioner, there is attached to that submission a draft order - - -
PN184
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN185
MR CALVER: - - - which - arising from a matter raised in submissions, I wish to substitute, so if we are going to mark the submission, I might be so bold as to offer up the draft order in substitution of that now attached to the 13 June before we proceed.
PN186
THE COMMISSIONER: Sure.
PN187
MR CALVER: It arises in relation to a point taken in the submission in response that we made dated 1 August, and I will just contextualise it for you, Commissioner, before I - whilst I hand the substitute draft order to your associate. In the submission in response, we responded to the CFMEU so far as one of its matters was concerned, and that response was in relation to the point about allowances. At 3.12 of the Master Builders Australia submission dated 1 August 2003, we say:
PN188
We thank the CFMEU, and we note that in relation to fares and travel -
PN189
and there is a typographical error. It says:
PN190
...discussed at paragraph 4.1 of the CFMEU submission...
PN191
That should be:
PN192
...discussed at paragraph 4.9 of the CFMEU submission...
PN193
Do I need to slow down, Commissioner, or - - -
PN194
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes please.
PN195
MR CALVER: I am sorry.
PN196
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry.
PN197
MR CALVER: No, I am sorry.
PN198
THE COMMISSIONER: What date do you say the submission is?
PN199
MR CALVER: This is the submission in response, or submission in reply, so - - -
PN200
THE COMMISSIONER: The 29th of - - -
PN201
MR HARRIS: - - - of the three - - -
PN202
THE COMMISSIONER: 1 August, yes.
PN203
MR CALVER: Yes, 1 August.
PN204
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. And that is 1.3, is it?
PN205
MR CALVER: It is 3.12 on page 9, Commissioner.
PN206
THE COMMISSIONER: 3.12. Thank you.
PN207
MR CALVER: Sorry if I advanced without you.
PN208
THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right. 3.12 on page 9, discussed at para - - -
PN209
MR CALVER: 3.12 on page 9, and there is a typo, that should be para 4.9 of the CFMEU submission.
PN210
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.
PN211
MR CALVER: So if I am going at the right pace now - - -
PN212
THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right, thank you.
PN213
MR CALVER: The - we say the draft order should be amended to make it clear that school based apprentices should only receive a fares and travel allowance for going to the job that comprises their on-the-job work related time. We say we are happy to amend the draft order and the emanation of that intent had been circulated. I might go to it and explain the drafting change that we have made. It is not spectacular, but it is not simple either, so if I can take you to that now, Commissioner, that will enable my friends at the bar table to also follow along. The change is right at the end of the draft order on the last page.
PN214
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN215
MR CALVER: And it is a modification to paragraph 20.9.12 of the proposed new provision relating to school based apprentices. It makes a modification to clause 38 of the MBCIA. That clause relates to the travel and - travel patterns allowance. I am just getting now, and the MBCIA, in case you have any questions. The fares and travel patterns allowance, clause 38. Now in relation to apprentices, they are dealt with in 38.12. 38.12.1 currently has a prescribed percentage of the full rate scale depending upon which year the apprentice is undertaking.
PN216
What the draft order would do would be apply that scale in respect of school based apprentices for days when they attend work, so that they don't get paid when they attend school. Whilst it is a complex mechanism, the concept is quite simple. But as with other matters in this award, the route sometimes is not as simple as it might otherwise be. So if I can - in seeking for you to mark the submission dated 13 June, Commissioner, if I can seek for you to substitute the draft order attached to that in the marking process with the one now circulated.
PN217
PN218
THE COMMISSIONER: Now I haven't - I don't intend to mark, until the witness appears, the statement of Denis Wilson. So when he has appeared, then I will deal with that. But save that statement, which was attached to the submissions, that is how they will now appear.
PN219
MR CALVER: Thank you. Is it convenient, sir, to call Mr Wilson now, Commissioner?
PN220
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.
PN221
PN222
THE COMMISSIONER: Please sit down, Mr Wilson?---Thank you very much.
PN223
MR CALVER: Mr Wilson. For the transcript, could you please say your full name and address?---Denis Graham Wilson. Level 3, 217 North Point Avenue, Turner, the ACT, 2612.
PN224
Thank you. And have you made a witness statement in this matter?---I did.
PN225
Could I please that the witness be handed a copy of his witness statement?
PN226
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, have you got a spare copy?
PN227
MR CALVER: I do, sir, yes.
PN228
THE COMMISSIONER: You have one, thank you.
PN229
MR CALVER: It is unmarked.
PN230
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN231
MR CALVER: Could you please look at that witness statement, Mr Wilson? Is that a copy of the statement dated 30 July 2003 you have made in this matter?---Yes, it is.
PN232
If the Commission pleases, I seek to have the statement marked.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN233
PN234
MR CALVER: Thank you, sir. Now Mr Wilson, at the beginning of your witness statement, you mention your experience in the building and construction industry, paragraphs 1 and following. Have you actually worked, as the expression goes, on the tools in the building industry?---Yes, I have.
PN235
Could you please, for the benefit of the Commission, tell us the nature of that work?---My father had a company, R Wilson and Sons, I was one of the sons, and I worked with my father for a year and a half before I went to other career aspirations.
PN236
So if the CFMEU characterised your evidence as lacking practical experience, that would be incorrect, would that be right?---It would be, as I have indicated.
PN237
Yes, good. Now Mr Wilson, the MBA is in favour of the introduction of school based apprenticeships in the award, isn't it?---It is indeed.
PN238
Yes. What are the reasons for that? What are the advantages of introducing - - -?---Well the advantages, I guess, are to both the individual and to the industry in regard to the individual. It is an opportunity, and exciting opportunity, for young people to acquire a skill that they can use for their future career. Indeed that these young people can access both training, can access funding through the National Training Framework arrangements, and that they are able to ensure that they devote their opportunity to seek a career, to make a choice of a career in the construction industry. In making that choice, they can undertake a school based apprenticeship, and in doing that, of course, they are able to make sure that that is the career for them in the first
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
instance. Indeed the opportunities that are available are quite large, and in regard to the industry, the industry needs new blood, needs new opportunities for young people to join both through a school based arrangement and join in the normal course of accepting an indenture through the traditional arrangements. The industry of course will benefit by the productivity that those young people bring, and also benefit by the ability to consider that skill shortages are now beginning to bite, and that they will be indeed - become part of that cohort of people that are able to invest in the future of the industry and its skills base.
PN239
Yes. Just returning to your witness statement for a moment, it is true and correct in every particular, is it not?---It is.
PN240
It is, yes. And in relation to paragraph 24 of that statement, if I can just take you to that for a moment - you mention there your discussions, investigations about the school based apprenticeship scheme in Queensland. Yes. And you say there that they are experiencing only a 5 per cent attrition rate. What is the normal attrition rate for apprentices in the industry, Mr Wilson?---The normal - well if one would like to call it normal - the attrition rate is quite high, anything up to 40 per cent in various jurisdictions. What has been achieved in Queensland is that the 5 per cent attrition rate is obviously an excellent outcome for a school based apprenticeship arrangement in comparison to either a pre-apprenticeship and pre-vocation, or indeed the direct indenture pathway that others are taking.
PN241
What is the indicative attrition rate as a percentage for the normal indenture pathway, in your experience?---The normal indenture pathway is something in the order of 40 per cent.
PN242
So we are talking about 40 per cent for the traditional form of apprenticeship and 5 per cent for school based apprenticeships?---Yes, indeed.
PN243
Is that right?---For that particular jurisdiction.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN244
Yes. And to what do you attribute that?---I think that you are finding that people who go through the traditional approach, which is to seek an indenture either through a group training company or with an individual company, are making a selection of a career that they might not be able to sustain, and indeed not being able to sustain that, they are lost to the industry. Their productivity is lost and the investment in the training that they undertake is also lost to the individual and to the industry. Indeed the opportunity for a young person to fully appreciate what is required of them when they join the industry is not obtained until further into their training, and indeed that has been the case for both school based apprenticeship outcomes thus far, and obviously for the traditional indenture and pre-apprenticeship outcomes.
PN245
So by that do you mean that they get to experience the industry earlier with school based apprenticeships?---They do indeed get to experience the industry. They get to experience the opportunities and the vocations, the raft of vocations that exist in the industry. And indeed the opportunity that they can take to not only start their career as an apprentice, but the opportunities that exist for future vocations that they might care to pursue over the long term.
PN246
Yes. Are there any other benefits for young people at school that you can identify, through this form of apprenticeship?---Yes. There has been, particularly in the ACT with the students at risk, where they may be lost to the traditional secondary school system, and indeed the programs that have bene put in place in the ACT have managed to ensure that those young people are not only retained to the secondary school system, but have the opportunity of commencing their vocational education whilst at school. The modern approach that one is seeing through the latter years of the secondary school arrangement is that they are able to make an informed choice as to where they might find themselves in vocation and career terms in the future.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN247
By the expression "children at risk", what does that mean, and how are they rescued, as it were, if they are at risk?---Yes. They are at risk of a number of things, of alcohol and drug dependency, of simply dropping out of the school system because it is not for them. We are finding that the early work - and it is early work - that is being undertaken is managing to turn those young people around to not only continue their secondary education, but also take the opportunity of seeing the vocations that are available to them in the construction industry. That indeed has given the depth of understanding of what is involved in the industry and what it could mean for them in their future. I think that it is essential for young people to see that opportunity and to grasp the opportunity to continue their secondary education and the opportunity to continue preparing themselves for a long term career.
PN248
Yes. Now you are a member of the Construction Training Australia Board, are you not?---I am indeed.
PN249
That is your evidence?---Yes, I am.
PN250
If I can now take you to the document - Construction Training Australia has prepared a strategic plan, have they not?---They have indeed.
PN251
And that plan encompasses, amongst other things, does it not, the skill shortages in the building and construction industry? Yes. If I may, I would like to hand the witness a copy of an extract from that report? I will give the full report to my friend, Mr Maxwell. I am sure he has seen it before. And I have copies of this, yes.
PN252
MR MAXWELL: Commissioner, I don't wish to interrupt these proceedings unnecessarily, however it is my understanding that in regards to these proceedings, that the parties will provide full written submissions and core witness statements. It wasn't my expectation that the parties would be reading new evidence during these proceedings, other than issues raised in cross-examination. In that regard, there may be issues that are raised during these proceedings through this new deduction of evidence of the witnesses they we may wish to respond to at a later date.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN253
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks.
PN254
MR CALVER: Well, Commissioner, if I might address that. I know I have a witness in the box. This is rebuttal evidence in respect of a matter I am just about to put to my witness that was raised in the CFMEU submissions in reply.
PN255
Mr Wilson, the CFMEU have made statements in their submissions to this Commission that there are no skill shortages in the construction industry. As a member of the Board of Construction Training Australia, and in your own capacity as an expert in training in this industry, would you agree with that proposition or not?---Can I have that question again, please, Mr Calver.
[10.41am]
PN256
In these proceedings - - - ?---Mm.
PN257
- - - the CFMEU has stated that there are no skill shortages in this industry. As a member of the Construction Training Australia board, and in your own capacity as an expert, do you agree with that statement or not?---No, I do not. There are skill shortages in the building and construction industry.
PN258
And, in relation to the - - -
PN259
MR MAXWELL: Sorry.
PN260
THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me. Sorry.
PN261
MR MAXWELL: Commissioner, if Mr Calver can refer to where in our submission we say there are not skill shortages.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN262
MR CALVER: I mean I am in the middle of examining the witness, Commissioner.
PN263
THE COMMISSIONER: No, I think the point probably is this that if you are putting to the witness that the CFMEU said it is probably appropriate to put to the witness what they actually said - - -
PN264
MR CALVER: Yes, certainly.
PN265
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - so that the witness could respond to it.
PN266
MR CALVER: I will go to that, Commissioner.
PN267
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN268
MR CALVER: Thank you. I will re-phrase the question.
PN269
THE COMMISSIONER: Have you got the - - -
PN270
MR CALVER: I have the particular paragraph.
PN271
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, can you direct me - - -
PN272
MR CALVER: It is section 6 in the CFMEU submission dated 29 August.
PN273
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN274
MR CALVER: The implication that exists in section 6 of the CFMEUs submission is that skills shortages are not contributed to by a lack of new entrants and there is some evidence that they say which contradicts that claim. In your view, Mr Wilson, both in your position as an expert in the industry and as a member of the Construction Training Australia board, would you say that there is any contribution to skill shortages through of new entrants into the industry?---There is a contribution that has been made by people not joining the industry, and therefore contributing to skill shortages. The industry, of course, is an ageing industry and requires more young people to join the industry in order to contribute towards the creation of a proper skills base to meet the future demands for the building industry.
PN275
Yes. And if I can now draw your attention to that page - page 34 of Construction Training Australia Building Construction Work Force 2007, which I apologise to the Commission I should hand in full to the Commission as well as my friend, Mr Maxwell, I apologise for not doing that earlier, Commissioner. If you would look at the bottom of that extract could you just read the last three paragraphs please?---
PN276
The declining trend in apprenticeship in the early 90s was reversed during the building and construction boom experienced in the late 90s however showing the cyclical nature of this industry apprenticeship numbers declined again in 2001 as the level of activity fell in 2001 compared to the peak achieved in 2000. The disturbing aspect of the current statistics is that although the level of activity in 2001 -
PN277
2000, should I say, and 2001 -
PN278
was 54 per cent higher than that of 91/92 and the employment level in the industry in 2001 was 66 per cent higher than that of 1991. The Training activity level measured in terms of the number of apprentices in training in 2000 remained more or less at the 1990 level. This means that Training Activity Level is lagging far behind the levels of building and construction activity and employment resulting from such activity.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN279
Does that - does that - do you agree with that, first of all?---Absolutely.
PN280
And does that contribute to skill shortages in the industry - this lack of new entrants?---It does and we have been trying to address that issue in a whole raft of fora.
PN281
How would the recognition of school based apprenticeships in the award affect this matter?---It provides an alternative pathway in which young people can join the industry. If you will, a new style of apprenticeship that will allow people to make a selection about the way in which they acquire skills. Whether that, as I say, is through an indenture directly with a company or group training company, through a pre-apprenticeship or a pre-vocational arrangement, or through a school based apprenticeship arrangement. It provides that flexibility that we have been demanding in the industry for a period of time. That flexibility enables individuals, companies and training to providers, to make a selection of the way in which they can meet those specific needs.
PN282
I would seek to have the extract marked, if it please the Commission.
PN283
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thanks, Mr Calver. I will mark that - - -
PN284
MR CALVER: Number 5, I think, we are up to.
PN285
PN286
THE COMMISSIONER: Could I just ask - - -
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN287
MR CALVER: And I have no further questions - - -
PN288
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Could I just ask one question, Mr Wilson. From that page 34, and particularly that paragraph that said, "the disturbing aspect", does that simply say that there are not people seeking apprenticeships?---The number that are seeking an apprenticeship is not enough to sustain the future level of apprenticeship required to meet the activity that is forecast for the future.
PN289
Well, where does it say that - where are the forecasts?---The forecasts are in the body of the document.
PN290
Okay. Can you take me to that?---I do not have the full document.
PN291
I am sorry. It is earlier on, is it, in the body of the document?---It is in - it is argued in the body of the document in terms of - - -
PN292
I see?---- - - the apprenticeship numbers in comparison to what is needed to sustain the potential activity of the building and construction industry.
PN293
MR CALVER: If it please the Commission, if it will assist both the - - -
PN294
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I will hand you a copy of it.
PN295
MR CALVER: - - - Commission and Mr Wilson I will give you a copy of the full document.
PN296
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XN MR CALVER
PN297
MR CALVER: He can take you to that - Mr Wilson?---Yes, Commissioner, I am not able to put my finger right on the specific evidence that is in that particular case - - -
PN298
THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps you might like to look at that and you can advise Mr Calver and he can tell me later - - - ?--- - - - but I need - - -
PN299
- - - where in the report - - - ?---Well, I can do that indeed.
PN300
- - - it indicates the level of employment expected or required for the industry and why that generates a need for training in the industry?---Absolutely.
PN301
PN302
MR MAXWELL: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN303
Mr Wilson, in paragraphs 11 and 12 of your statement I just want to clear up one matter that is raised in some other documents tendered by - or seen to be tendered by the other parties, you mention the off-site training package, can you tell the Commission which award covers that training package?---Sorry, I am not sure what you are asking here of me, Stewart - Mr Maxwell, sorry.
PN304
Well, the - in paragraphs 11 - in paragraph 12, in particular, you mention the off-site construction training package. Which award covers the off-site training package?---I am not - I am not aware of the specific nature of that award but I do believe it is in the furniture award.
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PN305
Well, I will not press at this stage.
PN306
THE COMMISSIONER: You can put it to him if you want to, if you know the award - and ask him if he knows.
PN307
MR MAXWELL: Well, well - the award in question is the National Joinery Building and Trades Products Award - you are aware of that award?---I am aware of that.
PN308
And that covers the off-site sector?---I am not aware that that is exactly the case, Mr Maxwell.
PN309
Well, I will not press this, your Honour?---Can I just suggest that the reason that is the case my concentration has been on the general construction training stream.
PN310
Yes. In paragraph 13 of your statement you mention formal review of the general construction and civil construction training packages - what is the current status of that review?---The current status of that review, Mr Maxwell, is that a report has been prepared to the Australian National Training Authority, that has been undergoing - the second part of that protocol, which is the consideration of the package by the various State and Territory jurisdictions, in order to carry forward the next phase of the approval process. As I understand it as of yesterday there was to be a telephone hook-up of the State and Territories to consider whether they would approve the packages to go forward to the next phase of the ANTA approval process. I understand that has been deferred.
PN311
Well, is it your understanding that if the revised training package is approved that the revised training package will be the one that will be available in 2004?---It would hoped that the package would be picked up in 2004, whilst the existing package still remains as the package available for the registered training providers to offer the program's qualifications in that package. Of course that would be up to the jurisdictions to make the necessary approval processes in order to carry that forward.
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PN312
Well, in regard to this review of the general construction training package what would be the major changes arising from that review?---The major changes arising out of that review is that in the first case the strengthening of the Certificate I to make it more robust. A number of the jurisdictions felt it did not have sufficient information, sufficient application of competency to make it a worthwhile program, so that has been one. The second - it has been in the nature of the assessment guidelines that have been somewhat in demand from various jurisdictions. They did not believe the assessment processes were as robust as they could have been. Indeed there have been a number of simple processes in regard to the actual descriptions that are used within it in terms of the skill, knowledge and attributes required to undertake a particular competency and they have been work that Mr Cooper has been undertaking, as you know, on our behalf.
PN313
Now in regard to the individual competency standards, have there been changes to the evidence guides in the competency standards?---There have been changes to some of the evidence guides.
PN314
Yes. Do the competency standards now require that the competency is to be assessed in the work place or realistically simulated construction sites?---That is correct.
PN315
Do the competency standards now require that assessment is to occur using standard and authorised work practices, safety requirements and environmental constraints?---Yes, indeed, it does - and others.
PN316
Yes. Are you aware why this change was made?---Which one are we talking about, Mr Maxwell?
PN317
In regard to the requirement that assessment is to occur using standard and authorised work practices, safety requirements and environmental constraints?---Obviously to bring it in line with industry practices to make it - if you will, what happens on a day to day basis on a work site. So in other words, it is replicating what a person would do if they were simply on a site, rather than in a simulated situation. So in other words, it is simply creating what reality is.
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PN318
Was there a concern in the industry about the use of models in training?---I think that there are two things there, Mr Maxwell. One is that there is an opportunity to develop one's knowledge of a particular way of doing something and that can be taught outside of a on-the-job situation, attributes of course can be obtained as people are developing their skills over the period of training and beyond and, indeed, in many situations such as Holmesglen College as you know here in Victoria they use the model situation quite extensively. We would believe that there is a combination of both, depending on the particular competency that you are trying to obtain at a particular time.
PN319
Yes. And do the competency standards now require that assessment must satisfy the endorsed assessment guidelines of the building and construction industry general construction training package?---Absolutely, yes, yes.
PN320
And do the competency standards now require that assessment methods must confirm consistency and accuracy of performance, together with application of underpinning knowledge?---And attitude.
PN321
And are you aware why this change was made?---I think that there have been a number of complaints about the assessment process and I think that was part of what we have done. As you know with the general construction stream is to make sure that people are assessed in the most appropriate - and national - consistent way. There are, of course, a number of statements that have been made about the assessment by some registered training organisations and that has been addressed by the State and Territory jurisdictions. But of course we need to make sure that on all circumstances that we do have those assessed at the most appropriate level including occupational health and safety issues, which are paramount to us at the MBA and paramount obviously to all of us in the industry.
PN322
And is it true, that the industry was seeking to stop the "tick and flick" approach?---Could you expand on that please, Stewart?
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN323
Well, there have been a number of concerns expressed about assessment where the - the RTOs were just ticking and flicking without actually seeing the - the person performing the tasks?---I think that that has been the case. I - I would call it, "paint the rocks programs", more than anything else where they were simply getting in through the sausage machine. I think that both the CFMEU and the MBA and other stake holders in the industry we cry the full application of a national training frame work, and the competencies, and the assessment processes, and we cannot afford to not follow that rigour and indeed if an RTO is breaching those arrangements it is up to the individual State and Territory to ensure that they are brought to ask and indeed, as you know, with registered training organisations they go through an auditing process and that auditing process requires them to facilitate the development of proper requirements both in terms of delivery, assessment and creation of the history of what the person goes through in regard to their particular training. So you have got an opportunity here to make sure both the CFMEU and the MBA - to make sure that RTOs are, in our case, towing the line and that we do not have the "tick and flick" aspects of what you are saying, Mr Maxwell.
PN324
Given all these requirements in the competency standards in terms of the evidence guide and so forth, if we take a core competency from carpentry, such as construct a pitched roof - how much time on the job would you expect an apprentice to have spent before they would be in a position to meet this competency standard?---Well, this is where the whole idea of competency based training comes into its own, Mr Maxwell - is we have moved away from time served where you actually spent X amount of time and regardless of whether you acquired that particular competency you were ticked off simply by serving time. Under the competency based training arrangement each individual has the opportunity of progressing as slowly or as fast as that person can progress against the assessment guidelines and the evidence criteria that you have already referred to so I do not think - and that is why we have had the issue and this might be getting a bit complicated for the Commissioner, but the issue of nominal hours that have been applied to the provision of qualifications and those nominal hours as you know, Mr Maxwell, has equated to the amount of finance that is devoted to the provision of that particular qualification by the State and Territory training organisations. So, it is very hard to say with any competency based training system when in fact - you know, how many hours you should be there and it could be that you might be there nominally for 100
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
hours or nominally there for 500 hours and this is, as you know, the argument that we have had through Construction Training Australia about the way in which the training is one; created and then delivered, and I think it is important that we do make sure that again people are accredited for what they achieve, rather than the time served that is presently being placed by the nominal hour arrangement.
PN325
But if we take someone who is knew to the industry and they enter into an apprenticeship and the nominal hours refers to the time spent in training it does not refer to the time required to achieve the competency does it?---No, it - sorry, it does take - it does take account of the time spent to achieve the competency, surely.
PN326
Yes, yes. But the issue of nominal hours is only in regard to the requirement of the training not the time to achieve the competency?---You are looking at two different issues. One is the delivery of the training and the acquisition of the skill, and that is the important issue. It is the acquisition of the skill and of course as one practices one's skill the achievement can be again through the aptitude of the individual and their underpinning knowledge can be, for one individual, fast - and for another individual, in the way in which we talk about it at CTA is much slower.
PN327
So in terms of achieving competency, that requires the person to perform the task on a regular basis, over a period of time, before they can be judged as competent, depending on their - - - ?---Again - again the same position arrives - we arrive at, Mr Maxwell, is that it depending upon the individual as to their ability to acquire and there is an - as an industry training specialist I know that well over 30 years that some people can pick up a manual skill or a mental skill far quickly than someone else. And that is why the whole idea of competency based training was put in place to take account of those arrangements.
PN328
Mr Wilson, in paragraph 18 of your statement you say that:
PN329
Each training package consists of core competency standards, which must be achieved. Electives which allow apprentices and trainees to choose units that suit them and optional competency standards to represent cross-industry standards, for example small business management and office skills.
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PN330
Now, isn't that a case of what you are really referring to there is that the qualifications are made up of those competency standards?---No, what I am saying - sorry, what we are saying, Mr Maxwell, is that a particular package has specific industry core competencies that are required to be achieved and, as we know, there are a number specified in each package as to how many core competencies they are to achieve, that they are required to achieve a certain number of electives and that number is clearly stated within each qualification, as you are aware. There are the generic skills that people can undertake as part of their development and they, as I have explained, tend to be in the area of office skills, small business development skills. As you know, in regards to Certificate I, as we have put it forward, there are some parts of that Certificate that look at business skills, that look at office skills. Now, those selections can be made by the individual and by the organisation to tailor the package to meet their specific requirements so it really is a neat fit to be able to make your choice as to what you are going to pick up to make up your qualification.
PN331
In paragraph 19 you made mention of Certificate I being the first qualification that will be studied by a new entrant. Was this qualification specifically developed for that the VET in schools programs?---The qualification was, and as we have had many discussions about, Mr Maxwell, the qualification in the first instance was the entry point of people that came into the industry. That entry point can also apply - can also apply to school based arrangements and indeed as we now have in the industry something in the order of - and the statistics at the moment are about 24,000 people are undertaking what we would call VET in schools, not VET in apprenticeship, but indeed, that particular package and a raft of others have been used - even as you would know, the traineeship that Master Builders and the CFMEU created as part of the building and construction training Australia regime, has in part still being used by a number of people out there. So what we are trying to say is that there is an opportunity here to really drill down to make sure that they are undertaking modern training packages that are consistent with the national training frame work that has been put in place. So, again, the election is there, Mr Maxwell, for the individual and for the employer to suit their specific outcomes.
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PN332
Well, would you see that the Certificate I, being used as part of a school based apprenticeship arrangement?---No, I would see that you are putting your target out there as a Certificate III outcome. Of course as you progress through that you would of course tick off the competencies that you achieve. Now as we all know at Certificate I, Certificate II and Certificate III there are common competencies that are acquired as you proceed through that. Of course if a person did not finally make it to a Certificate III but had completed sufficient competencies to measure them to the Certificate I outcome they can be formally accredited for that, which is a marvellous outcome. Where once upon a time that was not possible. The same thing with the Certificate II - as they progress, if they did not achieve the final outcome of the Certificate III, then they could, of course, be accredited for those achievements and again that has been across all industries the way in which we are trying to have a national accreditation system.
PN333
THE COMMISSIONER: Could I just ask - we will pause there for a moment?---Sure.
PN334
Was it your evidence that school based apprenticeships would be aimed at the trades qualification, not at lower qualifications?---It would be aimed at the full qualification and that is what the achievement would be. What I am trying to explain is that if you did not get to that part - - -
PN335
I know. I understand that?---- - - then you could then be - if you will, accredited for that outcome that you had achieved at a lower level.
PN336
But that is the focus so if - so if a young person was seeking to enter this they would not be entering it on the basis of wanting - of targeting I or II, they would be entering it on the basis of having a trade qual?---That is - that is what the outcome is that we are trying to achieve.
PN337
Yes, I follow?---Sorry, I just hate to repeat myself but that is - that is where the beauty of the qualification frame work comes into its own that you can get accredited if you finally do not get through that hurdle, for whatever reason.
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PN338
MR MAXWELL: And so you would not see the school based new apprenticeship arrangements covering a Certificate II qualification?---Not at this point in time. As we know, Mr Maxwell, there is only one qualification at Certificate II outcome.
PN339
And what is the occupational outcome of that Certificate II qualification?---It is a higher level than the current arrangement for a Certificate I obviously. It is there for the provision of a starting point - sorry, a continuation of the point where people can, again, acquire skills, particularly at skilled labour level but again if I might just explain. At that particular level it is - still very, as you know, very generic, where the competencies are in Certificate II.
PN340
And in - in the review of the general construction training package have there been substantial changes made to the Certificate II?---Not in - not in great demand, no. There has been more at the Certificate III level but it has been generic across it under the assessment processes, the evidence guides and the packaging. So in regard to Certificate II I would believe that you do have an opportunity to acquire certain electives or to select certain electives that previously were not available at that Certificate II level, Mr Maxwell, that you know.
PN341
But in regard to the Certificate II, is it the case that the competencies required for the Certificate II arising from this review process are no longer totally embedded in the new Certificate III qualifications?---Again it is the selection process that you need to make. It is all about flexibility and that is what as you know, Mr Maxwell, we have been driving for is more flexibility to meet the needs of the individual and of the enterprise.
[11.10am]
PN342
Well, perhaps if I could just go through the various certificates, and I am concentrating on those arising from the review process, because hopefully they will be in place in 2004?---Hopefully.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN343
Yes. Is it the case that the only common competency standards between Certificate I, Certificate II, and Certificate III are the following - well, Commissioner, there is - the list contained - - -?---It is very hard.
PN344
- - - in the witness statement, attached to the witness statement of Lindsay Fraser.
PN345
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN346
MR MAXWELL: Perhaps if Mr Wilson can be shown a copy of - - -
PN347
THE COMMISSIONER: Sure?---It is the one that is being presented to ANTA at the moment, I assume, Mr Maxwell?
PN348
MR MAXWELL: That is right.
PN349
THE COMMISSIONER: I will hand down Appendix B, so you can - - -?---I am not sure that it is actually here, Mr Maxwell.
PN350
MR MAXWELL: It should be attached. There is - - -?---There is an Appendix B, but it is blank.
PN351
Well - - -
PN352
THE COMMISSIONER: No, turn over. And see if it is behind it?---No, we go to Appendix C, Commissioner.
PN353
Well - I am sorry. I have got it?---Sorry. Sorry, Mr Maxwell - sorry, which one are we referring to?
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PN354
MR MAXWELL: Appendix B, which is the new or proposed training package?---Are we referencing 6.1 and 6.2?
PN355
Yes, that is correct?---The new national code BCG10103 and BCG20103. Is that the one?
PN356
That is correct, yes. If we can start off with BCG10103, in regards to Certificate I, would you agree that the core competency standards now:
PN357
Follow occ. health and safety policies and procedures, work effectively in the general construction industry, plan and organise work, conduct workplace communication, carry out measurement and calculations, read and interpret plans and specifications, and carry out levelling.
PN358
They are the core competencies of the Certificate I?---Yes.
PN359
Yes?---And then we go on to other electives after that.
PN360
Then there are electives, yes. If we then look at the proposed Certificate II in general construction, the only common competency standards are those that are core from Certificate I?---From 1001 through to 2001 plus 2006. Yes.
PN361
And if we then go to the BCG 30103, the Certificate III in general construction, bricklaying and blocklaying - - -?---Yes.
PN362
- - - that the same core competencies apply?---Yes.
PN363
If we then go back to the Certificate II in general construction, is it the case that the competencies set out there in Certificate II are no longer totally embedded in the Certificate III qualifications? Those - - -?---Sorry - go on.
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PN364
Those competencies over and above that minimum core?---Well, you do have competencies in Certificate II over and above the ones that you have just referenced as common.
PN365
Yes?---Yes. And they can be both core and elective.
PN366
Yes?---Yes.
PN367
But if we take, for example, TDTD1097B, operate a forklift, whilst that is contained in the Certificate II, it is not one that is in the Certificate III, the bricklaying?---It is not necessarily one that you might find in the other qualifications.
PN368
Yes?---Except if you go to dogging, for example. It is in that.
PN369
Yes?---So again, it is a matter of which qualification you are pursuing, and which electives you are pursuing.
PN370
But the - whereas in the existing training package, where the Certificate II is wholly embedded in Certificate III qualifications, that is no longer the case in the revised training package?---You will see that some of the cores change, and some of the electives have changed, and find their way into the specific qualifications that are covered in the various Certificate III qualifications. So indeed some of them have found their way to - are now in a more specific sense contained in the qualification in a Certificate III as we know.
PN371
Mr Wilson, in your statement you make various references to school based new apprenticeships and school based apprenticeships. How would you define those terms, and what do you believe is the distinction between them?---Between school based - are we talking vocational education in schools?
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PN372
No between school based new apprenticeships and school based apprenticeships?---Well, I think we are getting now into semantics. The original structure goes back to the days where I was with the Department when the creation of traineeships occurred, and we have both apprenticeships and traineeships in place. What has happened is that the generic term, and it is found in a number of the documents, the generic term "new apprenticeships" has been used by the training profession and by government to indicate both a traineeship potential outcome and an apprenticeship outcome. But both are, in reality, different in as much as - let us use the traditional sense - an apprenticeship is more of the longer term activities than the traineeships, which tend to be of a shorter term duration, and again, as we know with your traineeships, that it depends on the qualification that is available under traineeship arrangements. And there are now very few of those in the construction industry. Back to the days of when we formed - building upon Training Australia, there was but one. So now we have in place the word "new apprenticeships" encompassing both the traineeship outcome and an apprenticeship outcome. But in terms of school based apprenticeship, we are talking about in terms of Ministers, among others, they call it a "new apprenticeship".
PN373
THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry, could I just ask you to pause?---It is very confusing, I know.
PN374
No, no. I understand it?---You understand it, fine.
PN375
The only issue I want to raise with you is that if we go back to the old terms, apprenticeships and traineeships, this clause is not intended to cover what used to be comprehended by traineeships, is it?---No, not at all.
PN376
No?---No.
PN377
That is what I - - -?---No, not at all.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN378
MR MAXWELL: Mr Wilson, in paragraph 22 of your statement, you mention that industrial relations is seen as a significant obstacle, and you say that you have been tackling union obstacles for a significant period of time. When was the last time you had any formal discussions with the CFMEU on industrial relations arrangements for school based apprentices?---To be polite, Mr Maxwell, we have had this ongoing discussion now for a period of time, both at Construction Training Australia board meetings as well as during advisory meetings, and I have meet with you and with Lindsay to discuss not only the opportunities that arise for vocational education and training in schools, but for the application of those arrangements to school based apprenticeships. In Mr Fraser's witness statement he refers to that arrangement. Now, those, as you appreciate, with the exception of more recent times, the CFMEU have not been enamoured of the idea of having school based arrangements in any shape, form or otherwise. And what we have been tackling, as I use the word not necessarily formally, what we have been tackling is the issue of having those flexible pathways that enable people to start to obtain qualifications for the world of work whilst they are still at school, and that discussion has been going on. You also know that there were discussions in previous years with Alan Grinsell-Jones, who was our former industrial relations director before he left the MBA, so there has been an ongoing number of opportunities that we have - and I use these words emotively - that we have lost. Now, and we get to the point now that there are more opportunities now than there were going back two or three years. There are more opportunities of grasping the opportunity to put in place a structured training arrangement, including school based apprenticeship arrangements. The number of people that are tackling vocational education and training schools now is significant, and I believe that that pool of people that are now available to us, to help us address those skill needs, is an opportunity that I mentioned in my final paragraph that we can't miss.
PN379
Well, outside the CTA process, when was the last time that you wrote to the CFMEU about this issue?---I have not written to the CFMEU about the issue, I have discussed it, as you know, with your good self and with Mr Fraser. And, as I say, you have not been enamoured with putting in place an opportunity for young Australians to start developing their career aspirations whilst they are still at school. And as we now have the opportunity, of course, with our new industrial relations director, to now pursue that matter, and pursuing that matter
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
because it is the will of the Ministers for vocational education and training to be sure all matters to do with new school based apprenticeship arrangements within the MCEETYA taskforce arrangement. And that is clear. That is common and known publicly.
PN380
So is it the case that you have not made any formal proposals to the CFMEU in writing in regard to school based new apprenticeship provisions?---As I say, the issue was taken up, as you know, with Alan Grinsell-Jones, and it was never - the marriage never occurred. What has been going on now is we have re-engineered, re-invigoured our approach to pursuing the matter, and that of course goes to the heart of the matter, to obtain flexibility for people to select a pathway to their future career.
PN381
THE COMMISSIONER: Are you inviting me to rush back to conciliation, Mr Maxwell?
PN382
MR MAXWELL: No, I am not, Commissioner, although if the other parties wish to do that, we are not opposed to it.
PN383
Well, on that issue, you keep on harping back to Mr Grinsell-Jones?---Mm.
PN384
When did those discussions take place with Mr Grinsell-Jones and the union?---You would have to refer back a number of years ago now.
PN385
Yes?---We are talking probably, Stuart, Mr Maxwell, four years ago - - -
PN386
Yes?--- - - - if my recollection, at a last meeting of the MBA board at 217 Construction House.
PN387
And was it the case that the union initiated those discussions?---The union didn't initiate those discussions, we invited you to come along with us and the Housing Industry Association among others, to address what we believe needed to be taken forward. And as I say, it was an opportunity missed at that point in time.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN388
Mr Wilson, paragraph 22 of your statement, you state that:
PN389
Statements that young people would find themselves at a safety risk are not supported by any data concerning accidents or injuries.
PN390
Do you still agree with that statement?---No, let me just start from this - the first point here is that the MBA, and I know what you have commented in your statements, the MBA puts first and foremost the issue of occupation health and safety at the top of our agenda, and we pursue that with fervour. What I am saying is that it is not supported by the fact that statistics show that younger people are at greater risk. Fairly clear.
PN391
Well, have you read the report from CITEA attached to the CFMEUs written submission in reply?---Have I read the report from CITEA?
PN392
CITEA?---No, that report was not available at the time.
PN393
Well, I can give you - - -?---But, you know, again, it is - - -
PN394
- - - a copy of the report, just to - - -
PN395
MR CALVER: Can Mr Maxwell let the witness finish his answer please.
PN396
MR MAXWELL: I thought he had, sorry?---No, look, I am sorry, Mr Maxwell. It is quite plain that occupation health and safety is a number one priority. The issue at hand is to make sure that whatever is embedded in the training activities that people undertake pay full regard for that arrangement. What I am saying in that statement is at this point in time, I have not seen evidence that shows that people at that age, between 16 and 19 I guess is where we are arguing the point, is that there has been a body of information that suggests that people are more and have been in danger of being injured or indeed dying. Now, if you have got those statistics, we would be most happy to see them.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN397
Well, Mr Wilson, if I - this is a report that was prepared by CITEA for the industry training projected in the industry training branch of ..... - - -
PN398
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, let me find it, and I will give it to the witness.
PN399
MR MAXWELL: It is Appendix A of Mr Fraser's witness statement.
PN400
THE COMMISSIONER: It will be - - -?---Back to that.
PN401
MR CALVER: Sorry, they are numbered, if it please the Commission, rather than lettered. Perhaps you could address the number that they have been given, Mr Maxwell. We have 1 through 6.
PN402
MR MAXWELL: Well, well - - -?---So yes, I am not sure, Mr Maxwell, which one we are trying to find.
PN403
Well, it would be attachment 1. In mine it is Appendix A, so it is obviously a difference between - - -?---Sorry, I am not the - I don't know the rules of what we do here, but perhaps you could just pass me that, and - - -
PN404
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, if you would pass it up, I will see if I can identify it for you. Thank you.
PN405
MR MAXWELL: Sorry, Commissioner, I have misled the parties. It is not an attachment to Mr Fraser's statement, it is attached to the CFMEU written submission in reply. It is - - -
PN406
THE COMMISSIONER: Right.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN407
MR MAXWELL: - - - Appendix A of that document.
PN408
THE COMMISSIONER: The first submission, was it?
PN409
MR MAXWELL: No, second submission.
PN410
THE COMMISSIONER: Second submission.
PN411
MR MAXWELL: Mr Wilson, if I can take you to the fourth paragraph of the first page of that CITEA document, and the second sentence begins:
PN412
Because of the importance toward their safety and wellbeing, the actual minimum requirement of off-site training before being placed on site is six weeks. Without this, the ongoing safety of the apprentice will be placed undoubtedly in jeopardy. This upfront paid training allows time for the student to acquire appropriate industry endorsed occ. health and safety induction.
PN413
Now, would you agree with that statement, or disagree with it?---Well, you have asked me the question about my statement. That does not help me, that does not cover any statistics that I have referred to in my paragraph 22. It is a statement from CITEA, and being a registered training organisation they are suggesting that a minimum of six weeks is required of off-site training. That is their opinion. Again, it depends on the competency of the individuals and also the way in which the program is created and managed in contextual terms, so again, it is back to whether in fact the registered training organisation is doing due diligence in regard to their occupational health and safety, which they must do as we all know, but this tells me nothing about why you are questioning me about statistics that I have said that there are no, that I have seen, that there are no statistics that I have seen that indicate that a younger person is at greater danger than someone else.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN414
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you know that organisation at all?---CITEA?
PN415
Yes, yes?---Yes, sure do.
PN416
Are they a big employer as a training body?---I am not sure. They might have 60 apprentices. I would defer to Mr Maxwell. I think it is about 60 apprentices in the ACT.
PN417
Is that large or small in the ACT?---I think that is a fairly - fairly large.
PN418
Fairly large?---Yes. The MBA also has its own group training company as well, which would have a similar number, Mr Maxwell, than that. And I think that is, you know, obviously you are trying to make sure that the young people are protected in all shape, forms or otherwise. But that is, again, up to the due diligence as applied by the registered training organisation and the host employers, as we all know, within group training arrangements, and the way in which that is managed by the staff of the group training company.
PN419
MR MAXWELL: Look, Mr Wilson, I am just trying to get - work out your position on this. Are you saying that you don't believe that younger people face greater occupational health and safety risks than older workers because there is no data or statistics that you have seen?---No, what I am saying is that there is no information that shows me that a younger person is at greater risk - and that is the important point - they are at greater risk than an older worker. Now, the same thing would apply, Mr Maxwell, to the cohort of people that are undertaking, in our terms, traditional apprenticeship arrangements.
PN420
Well, Mr Wilson, have you read the Underhill report?---Sorry, I didn't hear.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN421
Sorry, there have been two reports prepared by Elsa Underhill in regard to workers compensation statistics between people employed by group training arrangements and those employed by direct employment. And in the first report, it was proposed that students engaged, or workers engaged by group training arrangements had a higher incidence of workers compensation claims than those employed by a direct arrangement?---I understand that that particular document - the method of capturing that information was at question. Now, indeed, I would have thought, Mr Maxwell, if a group training company was in fact experiencing that level of undesirable accident injury, I would have thought that that would have been the trigger for that company to take action. That has not been the case.
PN422
Well, have you read the second Underhill report that was part of the working paper series from Victoria University?---You would need to show me that.
PN423
Well, this is one of the attachments in combined exhibit book 2, proposed by the Commonwealth Government?---Yes, again, yes. And again, it was questioned as to where they collected that information. Again, I find difficulty, Mr Maxwell, when if that is a paper prepared by an organisation, then why has there not further action been taken to ensure those things do not happen? It hasn't happened.
PN424
Well, Mr Wilson, perhaps if I can just read you an extract from this report, which is found on page 4, at the top of the page. I can provide you with a copy if you wish, but I just wanted to give you a general - - -
PN425
MR CALVER: Perhaps if Mr Maxwell can indicate where he is going with this, Commissioner. I think that the relevance of it is straying somewhat, if it please the Commission.
PN426
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, Mr Wilson is saying that there is no data or statistics that say that young people are at greater risk than other workers, and I was going to take him to this Underhill report which deals with research that has been undertaken.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN427
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. Now I will hand it down, so that Mr Wilson can see it. Is that the paragraph "To begin with"?
PN428
MR MAXWELL: That is correct.
PN429
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN430
MR MAXWELL: Mr Wilson, the top of page 4?---Mm.
PN431
MR CALVER: Sorry to interrupt my friend, Commissioner, for - to assist - does the Commission intend to individually mark the papers that are being presented, or when we refer to them do we refer to them in respect of attachments to documents already marked?
PN432
THE COMMISSIONER: From the common exhibit book.
PN433
MR CALVER: Certainly.
PN434
THE COMMISSIONER: That has been marked generally, and just refer to the attachments from that.
PN435
MR CALVER: Okay. Thank you.
PN436
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. that is all right.
PN437
MR CALVER: Thank you Commissioner. Sorry to interrupt Mr Maxwell, and just to clarify?---Yes, it is - the page is not numbered, Mr Maxwell, but I assume if I count in that it is - the heading is - sorry - Stuart?
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN438
MR MAXWELL: The paragraph - - -?---"To begin with"?
PN439
"To begin with"?---Yes.
PN440
Yes. If I can take you to that paragraph, it states:
PN441
To begin with, few Australian studies have measured the incidence of occupational injuries among younger workers, although Mayhew cites Western Australian data showing that workers aged 15 to 24 years contributed 27 per cent of lost time injuries and diseases while making up only 21 per cent of the workforce in the mid-1990s. In the United States in 1996 a national study found that 15 to 17 year olds had an injury rate of 4.9 per 100 full-time equivalent workers compared to 2.8 for 16 years and older (National Research Council in 1998). US legislation prohibits especially hazardous tasks from being performed by younger workers. Tasks prohibited for workers less than 16 years old include baking or cooking on the job, working on ladders and operating powerful machinery. Those aged 16 and 17 years are not permitted to work with most types of powered equipment, such as circular saws, nor work in demolition, meat packing or logging.
PN442
It then goes on in the next paragraph to deal with why, or what factors contribute to the high injury rate for younger workers. So now that you are aware of some research that has been done on this issue, do you recognise that younger workers face higher occupational health and safety risks than older workers?---Well this doesn't suggest it. It suggests that - and we are not talking about the US, we are suggesting Australian here - that there has been little that has been done, with the exception of Mayhew, that cites Western Australian data. The question, of course, would be what vocations were they participating in, were they vocations such as electrical work, such as plumbing, what diseases are we talking about. The question to my mind, still, Mr Maxwell, is - there is no really firm data that suggests young people, and my point is, that young people would be at greater risk.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN443
THE COMMISSIONER: Could I just ask you to - - -?---Yes, sure.
PN444
- - - pause for a moment. Paragraph 22 of your statement - do I take from your evidence that you would want me to alter that, where you say, for example, statements that:
PN445
young people will find themselves at a safety risk are not supported...
PN446
you mean at a greater safety risk, do you?---I would think that would be a word that one could put in there.
PN447
So it is a greater safety risk than the general population in the area?---The general population.
PN448
Yes?---And I think, if I might, Mr Maxwell, and go on further to that paragraph, I am talking about young people who do enter the normal process of apprenticeship at the ages of years 9, 10 and 11 in schooling. So I would think that it would be interesting to find out what other information is available to comment on whether they would be at great risk. I don't think that they are. And I think one of the other comments that I have seen in regard to Mr Fraser's witness statement is about those issues to do with electricians. And of course, we are not considering that in this particular application.
PN449
MR MAXWELL: Well, Mr Wilson, are you aware of the alert issued by Worksafe Victoria about what dangerous jobs work experience students must not be given?---Yes, the alert is - I understand that, yes. And there has been knowledge at Construction Training Australia for a period of time.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN450
Yes, and are you aware that some of the types of equipment work experience students should never use include powered mobile plant, powered cutting or grinding tools, elevating work platforms, abrasive blasting equipment, explosive power tools, nail guns or jackhammers?---I am aware of that. But equally, I am also aware that people have in fact been using those tools against that alert. Now, it is interesting to note that in Victoria, that is the only requirement. In other states it is not. The question I would ask is why is it the case in Victoria.
PN451
Well, perhaps they have a better occupational health and safety - - -?---Well, they might.
PN452
- - - legislation than the other states?---They might, but we can't prove that.
PN453
I won't dwell on that issue. Now, in paragraph 24 of your statement you refer to discussions that you have had with the building industry group scheme in Queensland, and in that paragraph you say that:
PN454
Discussions that I have had with the building industry group scheme in Queensland clearly shows ...(reads)... full time indentured apprenticeship arrangements.
PN455
Well what do you mean? What is the difference between a trainee and the full time indentured apprentice?---What is happening, as you are aware, is that they are starting their apprenticeship whilst at school, then they are given the opportunity of continuing their apprenticeship once they have completed their secondary school outcome, and in the case of the building industry group scheme in Queensland, they provide them with that opportunity of continuing with the group training company to finish off their apprenticeship, using their words, "in a full time arrangement". Obviously now that they have left their vocational schooling, now is an opportunity of continuing their drive towards their career choice of a trades position. Now, that is fairly simple as far as I am concerned. It is simply driving from one opportunity that they have whilst at
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
school to develop their career and having left the school, they now drive into the next development, which is to complete their undertaking that they have given as part of their contract of their training. In regard to the 5 per cent attrition rate, that has been provided to me in information from both the group training company itself and of course through the Master Builders' Association of Queensland, and I think that is an excellent outcome in comparison to other arrangements, and I think that is the thing that, as I suggest in that final sentence, all goes well for the future of those arrangements as another alternative pathway for people to pursue.
[11.41am]
PN456
Well, if we can dwell on that issue of attrition rates, is that in regard to those who go from a school based arrangement to - is it at that point in time where they go from school based apprenticeship to indentured apprenticeship, or is it in regard to those who complete the full apprenticeship?---I am lost on that one, Mr Maxwell.
PN457
Well from my reading of your statement, you are saying that there is a 5 per cent attrition rate between them doing training at school, as part of their school based arrangement and then going into a full time indentured apprenticeship?---No, what we are seeing is once they go in - having come from that pathway of the school based apprenticeship, the attrition rate is significantly less from other pathways, namely, as I mentioned earlier, through a normal, traditional apprenticeship indenture, or through a pre-vocational arrangement or a pre-apprenticeship arrangement. It seems that the students at school are developing a feel and a desire to fulfil their obligations to their full apprenticeship, and I think that - it can't be denied. That is an excellent outcome, at 5 per cent attrition, in comparison to the other pathways that are on offer.
PN458
So - I just want to get this issue clear. Are you saying that only 5 per cent of people that go through this pathway fail to complete their apprenticeship?---5 per cent either do not complete - you can't use the word fail - do not complete their apprenticeship for whatever reason, and on a number of those occasions, some of those people have seen that there are other vocations within the industry, outside of an apprenticeship, that they might care to choose. So some
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
of them have gone back to university, some of them have simply made a decision to go on to other careers, having of course experienced the opportunities that might exist in the building and construction industry, and of course that is the choice that we are trying to offer these people.
PN459
Mr Wilson, how long have these arrangements been in place in Queensland?---I would believe it is 1999, but I would need to check my document to that effect. I think it has been over that period of time when the Director-General at the time established these arrangements as an innovative way of pursuing these pathways that offer these arrangements.
PN460
So how many people will have completed their apprenticeship under these arrangements?---I think it is in the order of 400.
PN461
Because, well, if we take it that the arrangements came into place in 1999, I think it was about round June 1999, given that under the arrangement in Queensland, in year 12 they begin their school based apprenticeship, is that correct?---Sorry, they - - -
PN462
Begin their school based apprenticeship in year 12?---They do.
PN463
Yes?---As I understand, yes.
PN464
So if - the normal duration of an apprenticeship is four years?---Mm.
PN465
So if they start in June 1999 - there is a question whether any of them would have begun in 1999, given the school year is normally run from February to December, so they would begin in 2000. So if we take the year 2000 they would have started their school based apprenticeship. They would have been there for 12 months, which would equate to six months off the apprenticeship, which would take them to 2001. So therefore if the nominal time for - or the recognised time was four years, there would be no one who has completed that process, unless they are very competent, until the end of this year?---And the point?
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN466
Well you are saying that this attrition rate of 5 per cent is based on completions?---Yes, and I am basing this information on discussions that I have had with that particular company.
PN467
But what I am putting to you is that because these school based arrangements only came into being with an industrial arrangement in June 1999, there would be no one - well there would be very few, if any, that would have completed their apprenticeship?---The attrition rate is measured over a longitudinal process, not as a final date. They are the statistics that are used by the Commonwealth and the National Centre for Vocation and Education Research. That is why that information does change over a time.
PN468
But the issue is - - -?---Can I just go on? And that is why the Commonwealth, in terms of its attrition considerations, need to wait for those four years. But the information to hand is that the attrition rate is at that minimum level at this point in time in a longitudinal issue.
PN469
So in regard to the attrition rate, it is those that are currently in the program. It is not based on actual numbers of those who have completed - - -?---And others have completed.
PN470
Sorry?---Others have already completed, Mr Maxwell.
PN471
Yes, but are you aware of how many have actually completed?---I would need to check my records.
PN472
Okay. Well in regard to - you mentioned the attrition rates in pre-apprenticeships. What is your understanding of the attrition rates for people who have entered the industry through a pre-apprenticeship?---The pre-apprenticeship program as we both know, now is not available as it used to be. Pre-apprenticeship does not have any status in regard to national training packages. As you also know, there was a drive by a number of people during
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
the current review of the general construction and civil construction stream - there were a number of considerations given to the opportunities that might be available for pre-apprenticeship programs. Of course, a pre-apprenticeship program is an institutionalised program, it is not employment based program, and that has been the concern of many, is that - particularly at public sector, I mean let us face it, the public sector have created pre-apprenticeship programs in order to facilitate a number of people through their colleges without an employment outcome. That has been clearly over the years, not something that the industry desired, because it didn't have that employment opportunity attached to it. You could have completed your pre-apprenticeship program at the institution, but that was as far as you got. So those people and their skills, potentially have been lost to the industry.
PN473
Yes, but I - - -?---And that is why, as I say, the debate has happened at CTA as to whether we could create such an animal. It wasn't created.
PN474
But Mr Calver asked you a question in regard to attrition rates, and you said that the attrition rates for those going from pre-apprenticeships to apprenticeships - what was the figure that you used about attrition rates in those arrangements?---Again, it is in my papers, about 40 per cent.
PN475
Around 40 per cent?---Yes. But from a low base.
PN476
Well on what basis do you make that statement of 40 per cent?---On the basis of the information provided by my colleagues in Queensland.
PN477
Are you aware of an NCVER report called Pathways to Apprenticeships?---Yes, I am.
PN478
Have you read that before?---Yes, I have.
PN479
And are you aware that in that report they say that the attrition - the success rates are in the order of 95 per cent?---If that is the case, I am quoting Queensland.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN480
Sorry?---I was quoting Queensland, Mr Maxwell.
PN481
Yes, but in terms of pre-apprenticeships - - -?---Because I am trying to match the three together, that is traditional, pre-vocation and school based. They are the arrangements that have been succeeded in Queensland.
PN482
MR CALVER: If it please the Commission, could the exact statement in the report be put to the witness, because it was quite confusing to me whether attrition or success or whatever was being talked about, and in what context and what sort of apprenticeship, if it please the Commission.
PN483
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Calver.
PN484
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, I - because I only became aware of this report this week, I am - I haven't had the chance to provide it to the other parties. I am quite happy to give them a copy and if necessary, we can include this in the common exhibit book.
PN485
MR CALVER: Well the gate is somewhat closed. Mr Maxwell has put the report to the witness. He should either proceed or withdraw the question and the implication, or he should make the report available as we did with the Construction Training Strategic Plan, and he should explain the context and allow the witness to see the report in addition, if it please the Commission.
PN486
MR MAXWELL: Well Commissioner, Mr Wilson has already told the Commission that he has seen this report. He is aware of the report?---I haven't read every single, you know, word in the document. You are well aware, Mr Maxwell, that the number of documents that cover these issues are enormous, to say the least.
PN487
I certainly am. Commissioner, I won't press the point, however I do propose that this document - because it deals with the issue of pre-apprenticeships - will be of valuable assistance to the Commission, and see what - - -
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN488
THE COMMISSIONER: Well discuss it with your colleagues at the bar table during the luncheon adjournment.
PN489
MR CALVER: Yes.
PN490
MR MAXWELL: Yes. Mr Wilson, a number of reports, including the evaluation of school based apprenticeships and traineeships in Queensland, have noted that there is a well entrenched attitude within schools and amongst parents and some employers that school based apprenticeships are an ideal testing ground, allowing students to get a taste for the industry. Do you support that viewpoint?---I don't think it is a taste really. It goes beyond that. It is an opportunity for them to see the career pathways that are available to them. Certainly, as I said right at the outcome, it gives them an opportunity of experiencing industry at first hand, and hopefully continue to achieve the competencies and the end qualification they desire. I think that is the issue that is to hand, that parents certainly do want to see their children complete a qualification. The community certainly does want that, and employers do want that. Because it is an investment in their time and energy in order to make sure that a person does join the industry and complete their qualification, and adds a valuable productivity person, productive person, to that particular company. So I don't see the relevance of that particular comment, without being unkind, I don't see the relevance in terms of what is trying to be achieved, which is to attain a competency over a period of time. Of course, having experienced it in the first circumstances, whether it be a week, two weeks, six months, 12 months, call it a taster if you will, but I think the time is unimportant. It is whether they remain in pursuit of that particular qualification which is the important arrangement that we would consider.
PN491
But do you recognise that the way in which the educational institutions approach school based apprenticeships - there is a difference in the attitude towards and between the teachers and the employers and the industry?---In my other project that I am responsible for, which is the business school based arrangements which we have been pursuing now for three years at the MBA which I am responsible for, yes there has been a will by some of the teachers not to have these arrangements put in place, and in other cases a wonderful
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
arrangement has been put in place. Now remembering that schools don't necessarily deliver the programs. In many cases it is a relationship that is struck with the local Technical and Further Education college to assist that cluster of schools to deliver the program. In other cases, it is a training centre, or a skill centre, actually doing the training, namely in the case of Master Builders in the ACT. So what we have got is a situation where people are selecting, again, based on what they are about and what their employer wants.
PN492
Well are you aware that in some jurisdictions, if the person enrols in a certificate 3 qualification, and for whatever reason they don't complete that certificate 3 qualification, they can't attract public funding for another certificate 3 qualification?---That is true in some jurisdictions. In the case of indigenous workers, they can obtain additional funds to do that. Of course we are looking at two issues here, Mr Maxwell, whether that particular registered training organisation wishes to attract public funding to pursue that particular certificate qualification, or whether they wish to do it without public funding. If they wish to do it without public funding, there is not an issue.
PN493
Yes, but isn't it also reliant on the individual, not just the training organisation, but the actual individual who enters that contract of training to achieve a certificate 3 outcome?---If he wishes to achieve the certificate 3 outcome, of course, he does two things. One, he needs money to have his qualification paid for, and as I say, that money flows from the Commonwealth and - sorry, flows from the State and Territory state departments of training based on that application to pay for that particular certificate. If it is, as I say, not requiring public outcome - public payment, then that particular certificate, whether it be certificate 1 or 2, an additional payment is not necessary. It is only when you are looking at public funding, Mr Maxwell, and again, it has been debated at CTA many times, it is the public funding issue that really needs to be addressed.
PN494
Now in regards to the school based arrangement in the ACT, would you say that the scheme run by the Master Builders Association and the scheme run by CITEA are very similar?---Mm.
PN495
Almost identical, apart from when the training and the work is organised?---There is a delivery issue at - issue, sorry.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN496
Yes. Are both schemes successful?---I would suggest that both schemes have been successful, and - can I just go on, as I said earlier, they have now moved into new markets. I am not sure that CITEA have, but certainly MBA has moved into this "at risk" issue to assist people - young people who might find themselves leaving school or finding themselves in more social danger if they were not picked up by the group training company and assisted in the development of their competency and hopefully stay with that to find a career and remove themselves from that "at risk" category.
PN497
Would you say that those schemes should be a model for the other States to follow?---I think in a number of circles it has been mentioned that that model may be of assistance, but I think it is not so much the model. I think we are tending, as you would well know, Mr Maxwell, we are tending to trial different models rather than finding that a model works and making sure that when that model works, then that is replicated. But by the nature of our wonderful federation, that is not necessarily the case. The Queensland model is different to the ACT model, and again, it is a matter of providing that flexible pathway and making sure that that flexible pathway works. If it doesn't work, to remedy it and make sure it works. And I think that the arrangement in the ACT which was first as you know, was, if you will, a model for others. But a number of organisations, including the - I am just trying to think of the organisation - the Enterprise and Career Education Foundation funded those arrangements but would only fund them for the year of that model. They did not fund them for the other years. Therefore in reality they were searching for different models to try different ways of achieving the same outcome, which I found to be disturbing. And I put that to the ECEF.
PN498
In - you mentioned in a previous answer that the MBA group scheme is the provider of training for the school based arrangements?---In the ACT.
PN499
Yes. Where is that training conducted?---A suburb in Canberra.
PN500
So is it provided at school or at the MBA training centre?---It is provided at both actually.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON XXN MR MAXWELL
PN501
Both?---So again you are trying to get the teachers involved in the process. When I was with the Canberra College there when we first started, the teachers were anxious that it still be at the school, because they still wanted to have a handle on their students. As they developed competence - sorry, empathy and confidence in what the training centre was doing, they were more than happy to see it done at that particular skill centre, which is equipped to do that. Indeed the teachers were starting to then come over the skill centre and see that they - what was happening with the kids. So I think that is an excellent outcome. It is what we are trying to do, is to make sure that there is an existence between skills based - schools based arrangement and the industry. That is where it is wonderful to get that mix between the industry per se, and the teachers.
PN502
I have no further questions for the witness.
PN503
PN504
MR CALVER: Just a very short re-examination, Commissioner. If I could take you back to the questions that Mr Maxwell asked you about Certificate I and the confusion between Certificates I, Certificates II and Certificate III. They have put something similar in the written submission in reply as to what Mr Maxwell put to you in cross-examination. They say that you appear confused throughout your statement when you make reference to Certificate I. They say that school based arrangements for Certificate I or Certificate II are not part of the variations sought by the MBA, and therefore the Certificate I issue bears no relevance to these proceedings. That is the implication, certainly from the questions put to you by Mr Maxwell. How do you respond to that? Is Certificate I and Certificate II arrangements relevant or irrelevant to this matter?---To this matter in a pure sense of the word, we are talking about a Certificate III outcome. When we are talking about Certificate I and Certificate II, we are talking about the opportunity for people to be accredited for what they have achieved, and I don't think anybody in this room would want that not to happen, and that is why the Australian Qualifications Framework was created, to recognise what people attain. But in terms of pure sense of what we are talking about here, we are talking about the school based apprenticeship or new apprenticeship, depending on which words the bureaucrats were using at the time to talk about a Certificate III outcome.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON RXN MR CALVER
PN505
Well how do Certificate I and II articulate to Certificate III then?---Well Mr Maxwell pointed out earlier that there are a number of common competencies within each of those certificates. They are across I, II and III. We did identify and rightfully so, that there a number of competencies that are within level I and stay at level I, within Certificate II that go on to other qualifications within the qualifications that exist at Certificate III. So yes, they are embedded in those outcomes, but as the review has helped us to obtain - to really make that a more robust arrangement.
PN506
And if you undertake a Certificate I and a Certificate II qualification, how will that assist you to undertake the qualification sought to be recognised in the award by the variation?---You are accredited with that particular competency, and under the arrangements, if you have that competency already, then in the way in which we have been using the word "ticked off", you are ticked off for that particular competency. So whether it be BCG 1001, you are ticked off for that at level 1 and level 2 and level 3.
PN507
There is an implication in Mr Fraser's witness statement a propos of this idea of articulation, where he says that new qualifications under the General Construction Training Package - about which Mr Maxwell asked you questions - he says Certificate I is for VET and schools programs, Certificate II is for skilled builders labourers, and Certificate III is for trade level workers. There is an implication around that they are each in a box, or for their own - for those particular purposes. Would you agree with that proposition?---No, it is not. It is clear in the presentation that the board has signed off to ANTA that Certificates I, II and III are for specific purposes but you are ticked off for the competencies as you acquire them, whether that be at level I or level II or level III. It is fairly - - -
PN508
So you are saying there is a progression through those certificate levels that is recognisable?---It recognises the competency, that is the issue. A competency has a number. If you achieve that competency, you are ticked off for that competency, full stop. And that is where I think some confusion can come. But certainly if you have acquired it as was pointed out through the decision that the board of CTA made, there are competencies that are applying to
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON RXN MR CALVER
Certificate II and Certificate III outcomes. Now of course if you fall behind, then you might have to brush up on that competency, but those competencies certainly are the touchstone for the further development of a person's competency beyond the certificate that they are attempting at that point in time.
PN509
Now there was also some questions asked about attrition rates?---Mm.
PN510
And the assumption underlying the questions was that attrition rates can only be measured at the completion of additional or other apprenticeship or certificate. Is that the case?---I would suggest that attrition can occur right up until the last day that you complete your qualification, whether they be fourth year or not. What the information that is being provided by Queensland is saying is the attrition rate is far less for people who use the pathway of a school based apprenticeship. And I think that, again, I think that is without question and excellent outcome.
PN511
So they measured it over each year, is that what - - -?---And that is the way in which NCVER measures it.
PN512
Over each year, is that what you are saying?---Yes.
PN513
When you say it can be measured right up until the fourth year - I just need it to be clear that attrition rates can be measured at the end of each year, is that what your answer is saying?---Attrition rates can be measured at any point in time, but I can't see that everybody would measure attrition rates every week.
PN514
No. I have no further questions of the witness, Commissioner.
PN515
THE COMMISSIONER: Just one before we move on. It was in your second - in case something arises out of it. Now, and the answer may be so obvious that I am missing it, but in the draft order that you helped prepare - do you have a copy of that with you? You don't?---Yes, I do, in my documents.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON RXN MR CALVER
PN516
MR CALVER: The draft order?
PN517
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN518
MR CALVER: No, I don't think the witness has a copy of the draft order.
PN519
THE COMMISSIONER: No, all right. If you could just - do you have a spare copy you could hand to the witness, Mr Calver, it would assist me.
PN520
MR CALVER: Certainly.
PN521
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN522
MR CALVER: Thank you, Mr Maxwell.
PN523
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks very much. Yes, thank you, Mr Calver, yes.
PN524
MR CALVER: You don't mind me approaching the Bench?
PN525
THE COMMISSIONER: No, no, not at all. Thank you. My associate has just had to leave briefly. You will see on clause 20.1 which is on the second page, and 20.1.1 talks about:
PN526
For the purposes of this subclause, a relevant qualification is a qualification -
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON RXN MR CALVER
PN527
and then you - there is a specific one at (a) that is identified, and then (b) talks about the AQF Certificate III, and then there is an exception that talks about a traineeship agreement. I asked you a question earlier about whether or not this was intended to cover traineeships and the answer was no - the old traineeships - what work does that exception have to do in the order?---Well the issue there is whether the qualification - and there is only one qualification at Certificate II which could even be classified as a traineeship, so we are still talking about a Certificate III outcome for the qualifications that exist. I am not sure of the number of qualifications we have got in Certificate III, but there would be only, if you will, one at Certificate II level which would be classified at that point in time - classified as a traineeship.
PN528
Yes. How does that exception apply in the order? Would it have any impact by deleting - yes, well, Mr Stewart?
PN529
MR STEWART: Commissioner, having spent years of my life helping draft these model clauses - - -
PN530
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I am grateful for your intervention.
PN531
MR STEWART: The words there are basically out of the model clause that was approved by the Full Bench.
PN532
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN533
MR STEWART: So they are very general. They are meant to be able to be applied in any award and get the right result. So what is intended there is that - this general provision is meant to provide that Certificate IIIs are covered by this model clause, except where it is a Certificate III that is done as a traineeship.
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON RXN MR CALVER
PN534
THE COMMISSIONER: I see.
PN535
MR STEWART: Initially, traineeships were limited to Certificate II.
PN536
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN537
MR STEWART: Then in the late '90s, they were extended to Certificate IIIs and later still they were extended to Certificate IVs.
PN538
THE COMMISSIONER: I see. So that - so it precedes the AQF approach?
PN539
MR STEWART: It precedes it in the sense that the - yes, I think the AQF approach came first, Certificate IIIs and traineeships came later, and that therefore created the need to exclude for classic apprenticeships arrangements that are at the same level in the AQF, that is Certificate III, but which weren't apprenticeships.
PN540
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I follow. So it doesn't dilute the objective, in other words.
PN541
MR STEWART: No, it just makes it absolutely clear that - yes, that would a good one. It attempts to make it absolutely clear that the model apprenticeship clause applies only to Certificate IIIs that are traditional apprenticeships.
PN542
THE COMMISSIONER: I follow. Thank you.
PN543
MR CALVER: If it please the Commission, I had intended to address this in my submissions, and I believe they accord complete with the Commonwealth. If I might just read from them to reinforce what is said, Commissioner, to make sure I have got it right in my mind?
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON RXN MR CALVER
PN544
THE COMMISSIONER: Sure, well I will release Mr Wilson, though, and - - -
PN545
MR CALVER: Certainly, of course.
PN546
MR MAXWELL: Commissioner - - -
PN547
THE COMMISSIONER: You want to ask him one question?
PN548
MR MAXWELL: I just wanted to ask Mr Wilson two questions we would believe the parties - and hopefully will help clear up any misunderstanding.
PN549
THE COMMISSIONER: Well let me hear from Mr Calver first.
PN550
MR CALVER: Yes. I will take but a moment. I had intended to submit that - and still do - that the draft order has been carefully prepared in accordance with the current award architecture, because it is conservative, and the concept of new apprenticeships have been deconstructed. So the traditional form of apprenticeship has been allowed for only in the draft order. New apprenticeships of course include both traineeships and apprenticeships. Traineeships are arrangements of up to two years, but originally were established to accommodate as a maximum to the Certificate II level but can now be Certificate III or Certificate IV, and are covered initially by the National Training Wage Award, which is not intended to be incorporated here. So my answer to the question about the exception is that in fact the conservatism of the clause is underlined because it intends to exclude anything to do with traineeships, and I think that is an adjunct to what the Commonwealth said, so I hope it helps, sir, if it please the Commission.
PN551
THE COMMISSIONER: Now Mr Maxwell, did you have something that arose out of the cross-examination that you say is new?
**** DENIS GRAHAM WILSON RXN MR CALVER
PN552
MR MAXWELL: Well there is.
PN553
PN554
MR MAXWELL: I want to assist the parties. Mr Wilson, is it the case that Certificate I, Certificate II and Certificate III are no longer to be approached in a lock step approach?---That is correct. Well it never was, but people assume that, all right. And that is a discussion that we have had again at CTA. It was never intended - you were to contextualise the way in which you established the program.
PN555
Yes. And just one final question. In the draft order, it mentions the Boral Interior Lining Enterprise Training Package. Is it the case that in the revised training package, that that qualification will be removed and replaced by the ceiling lining qualification?---Yes. Yes, certainly the Boral and the discussions I have had with Boral, that was their original intention. They did not like, as you know, what was in the original qualification. It did not suit their particular need. Now as I understand, ANTA does allow - as well know, does allow Enterprise Training Packages to be in existence, but it was the intention of Boral and others that that qualification would be subsumed, if you will, by the new arrangement. Whether we see that is another thing, and I think when - speaking to Boral, they are considering the issue. I think that they will come on.
PN556
PN557
MR CALVER: Can I make one clarification before Mr Maxwell or others proceed, Commissioner, and that is the task that you have set for Mr Wilson, and I believe that that task is to - for him to show that the - there is a real long term trend - there is a continued decline of apprentices in training relative to forecast growth in employment, and it is those forecasts and the forecasts for the industry upon which that relative decline is measured you wish for him to identify?
PN558
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN559
MR CALVER: Yes. I was just trying to be clear.
PN560
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN561
MR CALVER: Rather than - in my own mind. Thank you.
PN562
THE COMMISSIONER: It arises out of what has been drawn to my attention on page 34.
PN563
MR CALVER: Yes, certainly, sir, and I am sorry to be pedantic, but I did want to clarify, if it please the Commission. Commissioner, just on the issue that you asked Mr Wilson about in regard to 20.1.1(b) - - -
[12.14pm]
PN564
THE COMMISSIONER: Are you going to make it clearer for me, are you?
PN565
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, unfortunately I believe that the wording there does not help any of the parties. And just by way of explanation, currently under the award there is provision in, I think, it is clause 39.3 which deals with civil operations trainees and they can be a traineeship of three years and a Certificate III outcome. The results of - and some of these issues I have dealt with in the written submission - and the results of - sorry that is 39.2 that deals with civil operations traineeships, which are conducted over a three year period and a Certificate III outcome.
PN566
The results are 39.3 which deals with the relationship of the National Training Wage Award and that was intended to - although the award hasn't been varied as yet, but it is intended that the historical situation is that that dealt with Certificate II traineeships when you go back to the old ..... traineeships that Mr Wilson referred to earlier. The results were an issue in regard to new qualifications that have been developed with the training packages in terms of demolition, scaffolding, materials handling, etcetera which are not within the area covered by traditional apprenticeships.
PN567
And the industrial arrangements for those qualifications have not yet been decided and we will submit are not the subject of these proceedings. So I think in terms of the current wording in that draft order leads to more confusion and it does not assist anyone.
PN568
THE COMMISSIONER: Ao you are saying that if you are successful it won't trouble me?
PN569
MR MAXWELL: Yes.
PN570
THE COMMISSIONER: If you are unsuccessful there might be some benefit in the parties discussing any form of order?
PN571
MR MAXWELL: That is correct, Commissioner.
PN572
THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Yes, Mr Harris?
PN573
MR HARRIS: Thank you, Commissioner, before I call Mr Balzary, I seek to tender our submissions.
PN574
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Harris.
PN575
MR HARRIS: The primary submission of June 2003, titled "Submission of ACCI and VECCI, skill based apprenticeships, construction industry."
PN576
THE COMMISSIONER: 29 August, did you say?
PN577
MR HARRIS: Commissioner, I believe that 29 August would be our reply submissions.
PN578
THE COMMISSIONER: 16 June, is it?
PN579
MR HARRIS: 16 June, that is correct.
PN580
PN581
PN582
MR HARRIS: Could you please state your full name?---Stephen Edward Balzary.
PN583
And your address?---102 Vasey Crescent, Campbell, ACT.
PN584
You are currently the director of employment and training for the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry?---Yes, I am.
PN585
How long have you held that position?---Around 9 1/2 years.
PN586
And could you state the training bodies that you have been involved with or appointed to in that role?---Well, it is quite lengthy but starting, I guess, with - I am on the National Training Quality Council and that council is responsible for the quality of the vocational education training system. I am on the MCEETYA, that is the Education Ministerial Council for the transition to work and that body is responsible for all school to work initiatives including school based new apprenticeships and vetting schools. I am on the Australian Qualification Framework Advisory body and that body is the peak body providing advice to education Ministers on the Australian qualification framework. I am on the Joint Industry Training and Education Council. I co-chair that with Sharan Burrow from the ACTU. That body involves a range of stakeholders from both the union side and the employer's side and I also chair the ACCI Employment Education and Training Committee that has all ACCI member organisations and senior representatives on it.
PN587
And could you briefly summarise your work experience prior to taking up that role?---I have 2-1/2 years towards a Bachelor of Arts and Social Sciences from the University of Canberra. I worked for some years in a kid's - young persons institution that looks after young offenders. I then moved on to substantive arrangements in welfare, both in the adult corrections and juvenile corrections area and also in terms of children in need of care and protection including undertaking formalised reviews into children in need of care and protection and also adult corrections and alternatives. I also worked in a number of positions with the Commonwealth Government including heading up a branch at one time for indigenous employment, education and training.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XN MR HARRIS
PN588
You have made a witness statement in the course of preparation for these proceedings dated 21 July 2003?---Yes, I have.
PN589
I would ask that a copy of that statement be handed to the witness please, Commissioner.
PN590
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN591
MR HARRIS: And this witness statement is in our primary submission, ACCI1 at attachment A, Commissioner.
PN592
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN593
MR HARRIS: Mr Balzary, are the contents of this witness statement true and correct?---Yes, they are.
PN594
I seek to have that statement marked, Commissioner.
PN595
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. It is the witness statement dated 31 July, is it?
PN596
MR HARRIS: I apologise, Commissioner, you are correct, it is 31 July.
PN597
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XN MR HARRIS
PN598
MR HARRIS: Thank you. Mr Balzary, in paragraph 4 of your witness statement you refer to recent training reforms. Could you give us a brief snapshot of the training reform agenda over the past say 10 years and how that has impacted on the delivery of vocational training?
PN599
THE COMMISSIONER: Should I sit back and relax?
PN600
MR HARRIS: I will ask Mr Balzary to be extremely brief, Commissioner?---That is all right, I would appreciate that myself because I could go on for a couple of days on this topic. Essentially the reforms, in particular over the last seven to eight years, have led in a number of critical areas and obviously I was involved in one of the original groups to reform the training system in the latest round of reforms. Essentially it changed what was effectively a State-based system of curriculum and courses into essentially a three-pronged approach. The first one was the development of training packages which underpinned competencies that are flexible enough to go right across all industry areas. It allowed for industry areas to develop those sets of competencies into training packages for their particular industry and against occupations. That allowed, in the end, considerable flexibility at the deliverer's end to better meet the needs of employers. Employers and individuals were very concerned that in fact a lot of the system was around courses and they were very structured those course and couldn't take their qualification from one State to another.
PN601
And part of the process of reform has been reform of what we may consider to be traditional apprenticeship areas, is it not?---That is right. I think in particular, not only the training packages but also in the traditional trades areas, it was important to make sure that there was mutual recognition across the State boundaries. That in fact we also underpinned that and it was a particular issue for all - right across all traditional trades areas to have the whole system underpinned by quality framework. That framework made sure that each of the training organisations delivered very clear and were clearly accountable by way of audits and were audited across a national system. Throughout that arrangement, in the last two years, that whole system has been upgraded considerably to make sure the quality of training providers does meet the needs of individuals and employers to make sure that the quality of training is consistent across all States and Territories.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XN MR HARRIS
PN602
Have industrial relations arrangements kept pace with training reform?---We would have to say that there is a number of critical areas but certainly industrial relations has lagged despite considerable efforts by the industry parties. I think that in the area of generally at ministerial council level which involves the Federal and all State and Territory Ministers, on a number of occasions, Ministers have had to have resolutions which made sure that they tried to enhance and remove barriers to industrial relations and that has been considered as late as June of this year.
PN603
What has been the overall effect of industrial relations arrangements not keeping pace with training reform?---Well, I think what it does is fundamentally limit the options available for individuals to undertake structured training. One of the elements of the reforms in particular was to make sure a lot of the training was done on the job and particularly through New Apprenticeships. We have grown from New Apprenticeships from quite a low base to about 400,000 across the board but a lot of that growth has in fact been in the non-traditional trades areas.
PN604
THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry, Mr Harris, what do you mean by the generic concept of industrial relations?
PN605
MR HARRIS: Yes. Commissioner, perhaps I should ask a more specific question there. Have award arrangements - have the architectural of awards, in particular concentrating on the Federal system, kept pace with developments in training reform?---Well, what we have tried to do, again where possible by agreement, is to obviously part of this is underpinned by the National Training Wage Award, we have done that particularly in the area of traineeships, that has allowed at least a benchmark to be provided across a whole range of industries. When it comes to the traditional trades areas obviously that is done largely by, in some cases, nationally by also by State industrial relations arrangements. That means then we have had to go in and have individual arrangements to amend those clauses which has taken a considerable amount time so quite often what you do is get an arrangement that means that the training package is developed, all industry is consulted and in the end it is agreed through the National Training Quality Council to Ministers and the Ministers then agree to the arrangements within the system and in the end we find that we can't implement it because there is no industrial relations arrangements underpinning it in terms of awards.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XN MR HARRIS
PN606
THE COMMISSIONER: Isn't it lucky that I called these matters on of my motion?
PN607
MR HARRIS: It is very timely, Commissioner. If I could take you to paragraph 2 of your witness statement, you state that you are a member of the steering committee of the Department of Education, Science and Training. Could you please tell us about the origin of the National Industry Skills Initiative and what its purpose has been?---Sure. The National Industry Skills Initiative was I guess driven by primarily employer concerns about the system particularly in traditional trades areas. We felt that there was a need and obviously it is an important component of the system to increase employer engagement in the system. Part of that was to allow particular industry sectors to examine in detail how their constituency, both employers and individuals and some times registered training organisations and other providers, are actually connecting and I guess experiencing and making sure that employers' expectations are met. Obviously in terms of the changes we made, you know, seven or eight years ago there was high expectations that - of what would be delivered but what we did find that in terms of this area is that there was commonality across traditional trades areas because in the end we were getting what was essentially seen as skill shortages across a whole range of sectors.
PN608
Within the Building and Construction Industry National Industry Skills Initiative, was the issue of school based apprenticeships discussed at all?---Yes, it was.
PN609
And what views were expressed regarding school based apprenticeships?---Well, I certainly think in terms of one of the key areas that we did discuss at length both in terms of individual meetings we had with people that were consulted to the process and also at the steering committee level for the building and construction area, we talked about one of the critical areas was in fact attracting young people into building and construction and that was seen to be a difficulty both by I guess inherent barriers put in by everyone from the students themselves in terms of saying that in fact it was attractive industry to work on. Part of that seemed to be the increased competition by a range of sectors in terms of attracting young people into the
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XN MR HARRIS
industry. We also had issues around parents and other significant others who in fact were encouraging people to go to university whether in fact they wanted to or not in terms of an ultimate goal. And obviously we needed to make sure that we had supplementary and support materials available to make sure that individuals, particularly school students, could be aware of their options, that being important for anyone particularly because in the end we found that a range of industries had already had that sort of information out there and building and construction, we would have to say, didn't have much at all.
PN610
So it is fair to say one of the aims of the NISI was to attract new entrants particularly young people to the building and construction industry?---Without a doubt. The central focus was to try and look at the diversity of offerings available throughout other industries and see whether they were applicable to this industry, to see whether in fact what is the best and different pathways are available to individuals so they could maximise their own economic potential and also the potential of industry more generally.
PN611
You stated in paragraph 7 of your witness statement that there had been growth in school based apprenticeships in both the ACT and Queensland in the building and construction industry. Are you able to provide any information on what the take-up rate has been in other States and Territories?---School based New Apprenticeships and I guess this is in terms of across the 10 years are a very new arrangement. Currently we have got around seven and a half thousand school based New Apprenticeships across the country, around a bit below 300 are in building and construction. The vast majority of those are in Queensland; it is around 200 in Queensland and about 50 in the ACT. Apart from that there is sprinklings across other jurisdictions.
PN612
What would be the key factor in the higher rate of take-up in those - in the ACT and Queensland as opposed to other States and Territories?---I think particularly in Queensland where the vast majority are it is probably two things. The first one is a common instrument; industrial relations instrument which allows this activity to occur. The second one is that basically it is an arrangement where the State Government in particular facilitated co-activity I think between a range of training providers and employers themselves through in particular group training company arrangements which allowed individuals to be put with a range of employers if that was required, that is not to say it happened all the time but certainly allowed that, not only people to be put with a range of employers, but some degree of pastoral care around the arrangement.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XN MR HARRIS
PN613
And finally you state in paragraph 10 that:
PN614
There will be positive economic effects for the industry if there is greater support for school based apprenticeships.
PN615
What kind of positive economic effects were you referring to?---Well, I think in the end obviously skill shortages in building and construction have been there for some time. We have got issues around vacancies. That counter-balanced with I guess a major and significant issue facing this country about the aging of the population which has meant basically - and a number of people are not quite as aware of this but the population that will be leaving school from year 12 in 2015 is currently at school and we already know that that population base isn't sufficient to meet the demand. That means that in the end industries will be competing very clearly for the best school graduates, that individuals' capacity and their academic performance will be a very important component as they leave school. So in terms of the young person, school based New Apprenticeships allows a number of things. The first one is it allows people to actually, rather than VET in schools, a school based New Apprenticeship allows people to earn money while they are undertaking work. It also means that the person has got a capacity to complete their year 12 qualification which is increasingly important from a range of employers so they have got literacy and numeracy and other skills so the skill requirements of work is increasing. And the third area means that in fact once people have actually selected their career in terms of that industry they can build on that throughout their working life and see that it is a - vocational and education training and other forms of higher education and stepping stones to make sure people become more productive and own their own business if they so wish. From the industry side, obviously if there is a supply of labour, in terms of the requirements then we think that basically if we can undertake and harness the staff that we require to actually fulfil the potential and the jobs are required, it means that more economic activity will result.
PN616
Nothing further in-chief, Commissioner.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XN MR HARRIS
PN617
PN618
MR MAXWELL: Mr Balzary, in your statement you mention the steering committee of the Department of Education, Science and Training National Industry Skills Initiative. Is the CFMEU a member of that steering committee?---That steering committee - well, no, the CFMEU is not there. I think that steering committee, in terms of the over-arching steering committee of DEST, there is no union representative on that committee.
PN619
Why not?---Well, in the end, in terms of the over-arching national committee, I mean that is a matter for governments and we sit on that as a representative of industry. That has a whole range of providers - sorry, and other industry bodies on that committee with other departments. In relation to the Building and Construction Industry Committee because there is two then - I mean that a matter for - our view on that it has been a matter primarily for the industrial parties in terms of the Master Builders Association and the Housing Industry Association.
PN620
The action plan arising from the National Industry Skills Initiative I think it is attachment B of the - contained - well, it is mentioned in attachment B of the ACCI submission, now that has called for a establishment of a building industry taskforce?---I haven't got that in front of me so I am not - - -
PN621
Sorry. Perhaps if Mr Balzary can be shown - - -
PN622
THE COMMISSIONER: I will hand it down, it is all right.
PN623
MR MAXWELL: If you go to that documentation to I think the sixth page where it talks about the building and construction industry action plan?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN624
And it then - there is a page about the statement of agreement, sorry, after the cover page about the action plan, the second page talks about the statement of agreement and at the bottom of that page it talks about the - supports the building and construction industry taskforce. Has that taskforce been established?---Well, yes, it had established and met on a number of occasions through in particular the initial period of this particular issue.
PN625
Is the CFMEU a member of that taskforce?---No, it is not.
PN626
Are you aware of the CFMEUs involvement in training in the building and construction industry?---Yes, I am aware that the CFMEU is involved in a range of activity.
PN627
Would you agree that the CFMEU is heavily involved in training in the building and construction industry?---Well, I think the CFMEU is involved in a range of activity within the building and construction industry as are a whole range of other industry and registered training organisations and other parties.
PN628
Well, are you aware that the CFMEU has group training arrangements in some States?---No, I understand they have - they are involved in some.
PN629
Are you aware that the CFMEU is involved in industry skills centres in a number of States?---Yes, I am involved with - yes, I am aware of that.
PN630
And are you aware that the CFMEU is a training provider in its own right in some States?---Yes, I am.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN631
Well, why is the CFMEU been excluded from this taskforce?---Well, I think in the end what was important, as I started out in my earlier statement, I think the focus of this was making sure I think that in fact particularly employers and that is what the slant of the NISI activity was that employers have an opportunity to focus in on what are the issues they saw and major barriers they saw were in the way of progressing the training reform agenda. So the central focus was in fact on making sure that employers that had clear view and had a clear focus in terms of that arrangement.
PN632
Well, in regard to the recommendations arising from the Skills Initiative, have there been any discussions between the steering committee members and the CFMEU in regard to the recommendations?---Not specifically these recommendations. Obviously through GITEC and a whole range of other forums the CFMEU are part of that I am involved, there has been numerous discussions between myself and various members of the CFMEU in relation to the whole overall training agenda.
PN633
Well, have there been discussions between the steering committee members and the CFMEU on the issue of existing workers and literacy and numeracy issues and English as a second language?---Well, again I mean I guess my view on that is through GITEC and a whole range of other forums and the CFMEU are part of those and I co-chair that with the ACTU, we have a number of discussions in fact we issued a joint communique I think as a result of the last GITEC meeting early this year where in fact we agreed to examine existing workers. We agreed to examine the skill needs and the other requirements of people in the workforce as a joint agreed activity across industry rather than specifically in terms of each of the industry areas.
PN634
Recommendation 8 deals with the issue of training wages and the - you have agreed on principles to underpin training wages to complement training reforms. Have you discussed this issue with the CFMEU?---Just - I can't see it just in terms of the documentation, I am sorry, Objective 8, is it?
PN635
Recommendation 8 which is - yes, it is under Objective 5?---Right, yes, okay, I have got that, yes.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN636
So have there been any discussions with the CFMEU on the issue of training wages for the construction industry?---Well, the only one - the only meeting I can recall on this issue was early in the piece where, through what was termed the Mansfield Group at one point that I am on, there was certainly a - at least one representative of the CFMEU attended that meeting where we did talk about progressing skill based new apprenticeship arrangements.
PN637
But since this report has been released and these recommendations have been issued, have there been any discussions?---Well, only the ones that I referred to which I think was subsequent to 2001 when this was done.
PN638
Mr Balzary, are you aware of the detail of the training packages developed by Construction and Training Australia? Are you aware of the review of the general construction training package?---Yes, I am.
PN639
What sort of involvement have you personally had in that review process?---In the review. All training packages in this country go through the National Training Quality Council of which I sit on so both in terms of instigating reviews in some cases, examining issues as they arise that are provided through the ITABs, direct to that body and also the outcomes of all those reviews go through to all members of the National Training Quality Council so I am aware of it, I know some of the issues already through the briefings provided to me by the Australian National Training Authority and we will see the outcomes of the review when they are finalised very shortly after they have gone through the State Training Authorities. I mean the induration of these reviews I mean some of them take 12 months to 14 months across all industries, yes, in some cases. Obviously what we are looking for there is across all of industry I mean we have obviously got interests. I have had some discussions I know on the building and construction with Bob Cooper from time to time just to see how things are going and obviously had discussions with the CFMEU and a range of, in terms of my members, through the HIA and the MBA.
PN640
Well, are you aware of the changes that are proposed arising from that review?---Certainly in general I am aware of a range of issues in relation to the review.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN641
What about detail?---Well, across the units of competencies, I can certainly pick to you very clearly in terms of what some of the key issues have been right through the course of review. Issues like Leader Certificate II is transferable across industry and that being a major issue from a range of stakeholders. Issues around plumbing and where plumbing sit. Issues around whether a range of the units are acceptable to a range of training providers and whether in fact that fits in. Issues around assessment. So certainly in terms of some of the key issues of concern that have come forward to the National Training Quality Council, I am pretty well aware of them.
PN642
Sorry, are you saying that plumbing was part of the review?---There is an issue in terms of a segment, as I understand it, in terms of an element of plumbing was a component of a number of the reviews being conducted at the moment, yes.
PN643
Sorry, which element was that?---Well, at the moment, there is three packages going up before the National Training Quality Council next time, three elements, there is three different packages. There is certainly the general construction package, and there is another two packages in terms of those areas. Obviously I have been concentrating on a range of issues to do with general construction.
PN644
In regard to this review process, has it increased the number of specialist occupational outcomes available under the training package?---The answer to that, I think, is yes, but I have got to say that there is also a range of other packages, including the Boral package, which has had to branch itself off, because in fact it couldn't be accommodated under the original general construction training package, and we have had to hive that off to allow for the other package to catch up with us. I am yet to receive advice whether in fact that can be done. That was a special consideration of the National Training Quality Council, and in fact that couldn't be - it couldn't be considered as part of that arrangement.
PN645
Well, are you aware that Andre Lewis has written to the Victorian Minister, in December of last year, on this issue?---No.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN646
MR HARRIS: Commissioner, could we find out who Andre Lewis is?
PN647
THE COMMISSIONER: Does it matter? It wasn't pursued and the witness said he wasn't aware.
PN648
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, for the assistance of the other parties, I am surprised they don't know who Andre Lewis is. He is the Director Industry Support in the Australian National Training Authority. And I am sure Mr Balzary is well aware of?---I am well aware of that. I am a bit surprised that - that communication came from a middle ranking officer of ANTA to a State Minister, but that is probably why I am surprised by it.
PN649
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have much more cross-examination?
PN650
MR MAXWELL: Not that much. I should finish in the next ten, 15 minutes.
PN651
THE COMMISSIONER: Sure. In the next - how long?
PN652
MR MAXWELL: Ten to 15 minutes.
PN653
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN654
MR MAXWELL: Well, you said that the - you believe that the due process has increased number of specialist occupational outcomes available under the training package. What are they?---I am not sure of the detail, because obviously we are, as I have indicated previously, when these matters come before the National Training Quality Council of which this will come through within the next two to three months after it is cleared by state and territories, the process is that there is widespread consultation across industry areas, it is then considered by the relevant ITAB, it then goes through a series of, as you
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
are fully aware, goes through a series of changed iterations between the states and territories. That involves in extensive changes throughout the entire process, that has then gone to a higher level committee of state training bureaucrats. After all that is completed, it then goes back to the ITAB to have a look at and after that then it comes to the National Training Quality Council. So it is through all of that whole entire process there will be numerous changes in terms of iterations. As I understand it, there is nothing to guarantee in terms of what is even being considered, and what is with ANTA at the moment will actually even come through the National Training Quality Council. As little as within, you know, a week before National Training Quality Council - of us getting formal advice in terms of where these things are up to, things change. It could be that in fact some states have got concerns about particular elements. It could be that some providers in fact approach the state training authorities and say there is a cost implication. It could be that the range of organisations will talk to state and territory ministers in terms of their concerns. So in terms of where things are at a specific point of time, I would have to say that in fact usually, apart from the training package developers, most people in fact wouldn't be quite clear where exactly it is.
PN655
Mr Balzary, in regard to the action plan, and the performance indicators listed within it, under the various objectives, how many of those performance indicators have been met?---The agreement that we had in terms of taking this matter forward, and I haven't got detail in terms of going through each one and I am sure that is not what your question is. It was agreed to focus on two primary areas. The first area was building up a careers database and website to go into all school systems with a down-loadable capacity for teachers about what is being done there. Now that, in fact, has been finalised and is currently with the Department, and the Minister, to actually fully endorse. The second element was to develop, through the National Centre of Vocational Education Research, NCVER, some further detail on a whole series of issues to do with employer engagement in the building construction area. That report has been finalised. As a flow on from that report, major activity has undertaken in terms of what is the best way in terms of getting a marketing campaign out to employers. Likewise, that work has also been completed in terms of developing a framework to put forward to the Department of Education, Science and Training, and that matter is being considered by them as well.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN656
Mr Balzary, according to paragraph 6 of your statement, under this year a range of options is being pursued to address a problem of more flexible pathways as part of that strategy. Have any of these options - apart from the issue of school based apprenticeships, have any of these other options been discussed with the CFMEU?---Well, I mean we have again broadbased discussions around vocational education training schools, and we have had a number of discussions in the last two to three years at GITEC and other forums on specifically vocational education and training in schools in relation to the building and construction sector. So, I mean, actually my answer to that would be yes.
PN657
Well, have there been any formal discussions between ACCI or its membership and the CFMEU directly being the only parties to those discussions?---Well, I mean, not in the terms you have outlined even though I would say that we have had canvassed extensively the issue around vocational education and training in schools in a range of sectors including building and construction.
PN658
Mr Balzary, in paragraphs 5 and 6 you mention that there is a lack of new entrants into the industry and that this is one of the reasons for skill shortages in the building and construction industry. On what basis do you make this claim?---The most extensive and independent study undertaken in skill shortages in the country is done by the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations. In particular that is the most consistent in terms of methodology and the other requirements so it is the one that we use to benchmark about where we are up to. That produces a national skill shortages list at least twice a year. That is broken down at a national level but also at a state level in terms of what are the critical areas by occupation arrangements. It is also used by the Department of Immigration for overseas recruiting of skilled migrants. So in terms of - if you see a range of areas in traditional trades being - showing up as skill shortages at a national level, then it is fairly evident that we have got fundamental issues around vacancies and attracting of labour.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN659
Well, you strictly say that there is a lack of new entrants into the industry. In what occupations is there a lack of new entrants?---Well, in the skill shortages list certainly over the last ten years there has been everything from carpentry through to, you know, all the traditional trades areas. Largely it has been, in fact, dominated by traditional trades areas. The para-professional areas in terms of - like teaching and nursing, tend to weave in and out but it is dominated by traditional trades areas including the building and construction industry.
PN660
Well, Mr Balzary, are you aware of the report by the NCBR, skilled trends in the building and construction trades?---Well, I am aware of it. I wouldn't be expected to be able to recite it here.
PN661
Well, are you - it was attached to the ACCIs submission in these proceedings?---Yes, yes.
PN662
Well, in that report - perhaps if Mr Balzary - - -
PN663
THE COMMISSIONER: He has got it in front of him.
PN664
MR MAXWELL: He has got it in front of him; yes?---It is here. Thank you.
PN665
If you would turn to page 30 of that report?---Right.
PN666
In regard to the overview of skilled trends in the building and construction trades, the report concludes:
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN667
The evidence presented to date suggests that the combination of commencements in new apprenticeship training and the now very significant ..... of non-apprenticeship pathways to the building and construction trades have been sufficient to keep up with overall employment levels in the building and construction trades. In terms of traditional measures of skill shortage, the building and construction trades do not appear to be in a critical stage of demand given the facts as described below. The increases in apprentice and trainee commencements in the building and construction trades will see an improvement with the raising of the ratio of new apprentices to the total skilled trades workforce in Australia's building and construction trade sector, an increase in the growth of new apprentice completions over the period 1995 to 2000.
PN668
Now, Mr Balzary, if you can turn over two pages to the conclusion on page 32, just to paraphrase what that says, it says: according to that conclusion, the main reasons for any skill shortages include the cyclical nature of the industry, the disincentives to employers and to apprentices in entering the trade, the high level of career progression out of the trades into managerial and supervisory positions, the structure of the industry arising from the increasing use of specialist subcontractors, and the needs to upgrade the skills of old workers. And so are you saying that that NCVER report is wrong, or do you disagree with that conclusion?---I - well, I am happy to have a discussion on this. I think that certainly in terms of the DEWR things that have been consistently showing a change - bricklaying, carpentry and a whole range of skill shortages evident there throughout the last ten years. The issue for ACCI and I think, in fact, everyone that is involved in the building industry is about how people gain qualifications that are portable. So whilst it could be argued that, in fact, there is an offset for a range of people without formal qualifications in terms of the building and construction industry, most people would say, including those individuals would say that is not desirable. In fact, increasingly as we have to compete overseas and also domestically that the skilling of the labour market and having formal qualifications at entry level and also higher levels is increasingly being required and called upon. So our view would be that, in fact, whilst that may have some offset that, in fact, this is an area and an industry with high levels of non-credentialled individuals and that, in fact, it was broadly agreed right across from all the participants in terms of the
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
industry that, in fact, that wasn't necessarily the most desirable thing, particularly those people in terms of aging and other factors in the industry. I think as well that obviously as we have had in terms of where those figures go in terms of 2000, that we have seen further increases in terms of activity in the industry. That has meant that, in fact, it puts more pressure in terms of vacancies and those requirements on individuals to have people with skills and have additional new apprentices coming through. And as we say, I mean the industry is ageing so it is imperative that, in fact, you get people, young people in that have got some skills and qualifications and are prepared to stay in the industry for some period of time.
PN669
Well, just on that issue about attracting young people to the industry, and you said in regard to a - in response to a question from Mr Harris, that is one of the problems for the industry. Would you agree that wages are an issue in attracting young people to the industry?---Well, I mean, we found that, in fact, in a range of areas through this work that obviously wage and conditions are one component of why people enter an industry but it is only, in fact, one component. In the skill shortages work we have undertaken it can be in terms of rewards. It is potential for career development. It is potential opportunities. It has also got to do with income, the potential for income generating activity. It is also capacity to actually run and own your own business. It is also issues around whether some people like to work inside or outside. So it is a range of factors about why people enter industry areas. It is not just in terms of any particular wage or conditions arrangements.
PN670
Mr Balzary, you also mentioned that state industrial relations arrangements are an issue that needs to be addressed in response to I think a question from Mr Harris. At a state level have there been any discussions between ACCI or its members and the unions involved in the building industry over skilled based apprenticeships?---Well, certainly - I mean, part of what we have tried to do when we, in fact, had an exercise in Tasmania and South Australia where we had someone working specifically in terms of putting these sorts of arrangements into state based awards right across a number of awards, so we have undertaken that and that has been - and those individuals spoke to a range of the relevant industries including the CFMEU; certainly in Tasmania and South Australia. Again, I mean I think that there has been a range of discussions including Western Australia where it is a clear position of the Chamber in Western Australia that, in fact, pathways are open for school based new apprenticeships as well.
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
PN671
Well, have there been any state awards varied?---In a number of areas, yes, they have been varied. I haven't got the list of which ones have been varied in which states and which ones haven't been in front of me.
PN672
Well, I - - -?---But not in building and construction.
PN673
Not in building, okay?---Anticipating your question.
PN674
Thank you. Mr Balzary, in paragraph 7 you mentioned that there has been encouraging growth in school based new apprenticeships in construction, particularly in the ACT and Queensland. Are you aware of the model used in the ACT?---This is the youth at risk model?
PN675
Not just the youth at risk model but also the programs run by CTA and the MBA group scheme, or the MBA/ACT?---Yes, I am broadly aware of that, bearing in mind it is fairly small and it has got small numbers, yes.
PN676
Would you say that the ACT model is one that is suitable for other states?---I think that - I mean, I guess my view is that I don't wish to impose any particular models on any particular jurisdiction. The importance for us is to have models that allow for a range of industrial relations, pathways, through AWAs, awards and other arrangements. That should be largely left up to the employer in terms of what they normally engage people with. I guess that is the outcome in terms of what we are trying to achieve here. In particular, what we are trying to do is allow a range of providers. Providers do it differently to meet the needs of their clients. Skill based new apprenticeships are a particular - given by my background, a particularly important channel for indigenous people and people at risk of leaving school. And if we don't, in my view, do something in that area for those people, they will drop out of school and we all know those that drop out of school, the majority of those people within 12 months, if they don't get any form of engagement at all, will be largely unemployed for long periods of their life. So as an active strategy - and that is why I was interested in part of the ACT model about at risk - part of what they
**** STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY XXN MR MAXWELL
are trying to do is get in early for those people at risk. So as a tool of a public social policy, my view is it is a very important component. That is not to say though that it should only be used for people at risk. We are very concerned that programs get labelled as such. It is about a broadbased arrangement which allows, as I said, some children to go on to - thinking of going on to university or any get pressured to go on to university, to actually go into the traditional trades including building and construction as well. So my answer to your question is, both the ACT and the Queensland models are distinctive and they have got good features, both of them. So rather than saying one or other, it is, in fact, the diversity of options right through the training and employment areas are what is critical because it has also got - it has not only to do with what the employer wants, it has also got to do with the individual and their requirements and how training providers and group training companies better connect.
PN677
I have no further questions, Commissioner.
PN678
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Harris?
PN679
MR HARRIS: Nothing in re-examination, Commissioner.
PN680
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Thank you for your evidence, Mr Balzary. You are excused?---Thank you.
PN681
PN682
THE COMMISSIONER: I do apologise for keeping you waiting. Now, who is next? Yes.
PN683
MR STEWART: If the Commission pleases, if I could change my appearance. I have with me MR A. STEPHENS from the Australian National Training Authority.
PN684
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks very much, Mr Stewart. Is there any further evidence to be called?
PN685
MR MAXWELL: Commissioner, I believe it is now up to the CFMEU to present Mr Fraser. I would seek to call Mr Lindsay Fraser as a witness, please.
PN686
PN687
MR MAXWELL: Commissioner, perhaps before we go to Mr Fraser, it might be an idea to mark the CFMEUs submissions.
PN688
PN689
THE COMMISSIONER: And I have Mr Fraser's statement which is attached to a letter, dated 9 September.
PN690
PN691
MR MAXWELL: Mr Fraser, can you state your full name and address please?---Lindsay James Fraser, 7 Keben Street, Roselands, Sydney 2196.
PN692
Mr Fraser, did you prepare a witness statement, dated 9 September 2003?---That is correct.
PN693
Are there any changes or alterations you wish to make to that statement?---No, there aren't, Mr Maxwell.
PN694
PN695
THE COMMISSIONER: Have you got a copy of the statement with you, Mr Fraser?---I have actually got one in my bag over there, Mr Commissioner.
PN696
Perhaps it is a good idea if - do you want to get it for Mr Fraser just so he has got it in the witness box with him; just in case you are asked a question about it?---Certainly, Mr Commissioner. Thank you.
PN697
Thanks, Mr Maxwell.
PN698
MR MAXWELL: Commissioner, at this stage I have no further questions for the witness.
PN699
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Calver.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XN MR MAXWELL
PN700
PN701
MR CALVER: You are very heavily involved in the training system, aren't you, Mr Fraser?---That is correct, Mr Calver.
PN702
It is quite an impressive list of committees and boards and things that you are on, isn't it, very impressive?---It certainly is.
PN703
You have major sway over the training system, by the looks of things?---A small player in a big fish bowl.
PN704
As part of that role you are on the board of Construction Training Australia?---That is correct.
PN705
You are responsible for their planning and assisting them with many of the tasks, aren't you?---That is correct.
PN706
You helped them devise their strategic plan, didn't you?---No, I didn't.
PN707
You were on their board surely?---No, the strategic plan at the moment has gone back to be amended.
PN708
In what regard?---When it was last released was during a period of turmoil with CTA and not all parties had been fully consulted as to that particular document.
PN709
The question was, Mr Fraser, in which particular parts do you - with which particular parts do you disagree what amendments have you sought?---Well, as I understand it, the - only the foreword to the strategic plan was forwarded to ANTA, and all of the documentation at the rear of that was not.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN710
Yes. I don't think you have still answered my question, Mr Fraser. You said that you didn't agree with the strategic plan and it had gone back to Construction Training Australia for amendment. My question is: what parts of the strategic plan have gone back for amendment and which parts don't you agree with; it is quite a simple question?---Well, it is a pretty simple answer, too. I don't agree with the vast majority of it because I wasn't consulted on it and an officer of CTA prepared it without consulting with me.
PN711
All right. Generally though you endorse Construction Training Australia documents, don't you?---I certainly do.
PN712
Yes, and generally they are of a high standard?---No, I wouldn't go as far as to say that. As I just said a moment ago, Construction Training Australia is in a state of turmoil. We have just lost all of our officers. There is one employee left, with whom I have to meet tomorrow actually.
PN713
So what do you say about the standard of documentation produced by Construction Training Australia then, Mr Fraser?---Well, I would say that in some instances it is not too bad. The training packages are pretty good because they were done by the industry parties. Some of the other documentation, the policy stuff, was not done by the industry parties and is of a poorer standard. I think ANTA was asked about that and their satisfaction with documentation that has come from CTA.
PN714
I will show you page 34 which, Commissioner, was MBA5 of Construction Training Australia's strategic plan to 2007. If you have a look at that document, Mr Fraser, right at the bottom of page 34 there there are some statistics which are cited, and the report says:
PN715
The disturbing aspect of the current statistics is that although the level of activity in 2000-2001 was 54 per cent higher than that of '91-92, the employment level in the industry in 2001 was 66 per cent higher than that of 1991. The training activity level measured in terms of a number of apprentices in training in 2000 remained more or less at 1990 level.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN716
Do you agree with that proposition?---Oh, I most certainly do. You can quote that from some of my own documentation with our dissatisfaction with the employers' levels of training.
PN717
Yes, and the next sentence reads:
PN718
This means training activity level is lagging far behind the levels of building and construction activity, and employment resulting from such activity.
PN719
Do you agree with that proposition, too?---That is correct.
PN720
Yes. So, in short, there is, is there not, a skill shortage in the industry induced by the lack of apprentices coming into the industry?---Yes, there certainly is.
PN721
Yes. Therefore, why in the CFMEU submission in reply, CFMEU2, in section 6, why do the CFMEU criticise, impliantly but criticism none the less, ACCI and others for saying that the skill shortage in the industry derives from a lack of new entrants into the industry; why did the CFMEU in your submissions seek to undermine the proposition that there is a lack of new entrants into the industry?---I would have to read that submission. I have in front of me my statement.
PN722
Yes. Well, in your statement don't you say you have read and helped prepared - - -
PN723
MR MAXWELL: Perhaps, Commissioner, if Mr Calver is referring to the CFMEUs submission, he can provide a copy to Mr Fraser.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN724
MR CALVER: I would be happy to, but certainly I was about to say you mention that helped prepare this submission and particularly you refer to it in paragraph 22 of your statement. But I am happy to show you paragraph 6.2 of CFMEU2, either through my copy or a copy provided by the Commission. Actually, sorry, I will give you this. Paragraph 6.1, I will just get you to read paragraph 6.1?---
PN725
It is claimed by the employer organisation (see points 5 and 6 of the witness statement of Steve Balzary) that there is a lack of new entrants into the industry and that this is one of the reasons for the skill shortages in the building and construction industry.
PN726
Yes, and then it goes on to talk about in paragraph 6.2, does it not, how the ACCIs own submission appears to contradict this claim and the implication is that the CFMEU is seeking to undermine the proposition with which you just agreed arising from the CTA work. Is that not the implication I should take?---No, it isn't the implication you should take at all, Mr Calver. If you read my statement, you will see that we fully support the introduction of pre-apprenticeship training in the industry to improve new entrant levels but this is not possible because of the stringent ANTA guidelines. ANTA have been made aware of this by the CFMEU and have been unable to correct it to this date.
PN727
Right. So I am glad that we are clarifying this, glad that we are clarifying this?---That is all right, I am happy for you to ask me questions and I will happily answer them.
PN728
Yes, thank you. I am clarifying that the CFMEU does believe that part of the reason for a skill shortage in the construction industry is because of the lack of new entrants, a simple proposition; you agree with that proposition?---No, no, I don't agree with that. It is not a lack of new entrants. It is a lack of positions for the entrants to go to. You give me a job tomorrow and I will give you 500 applicants.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN729
I am sorry, the proposition that you agreed with out of Construction Training Australia is that training activity is lagging far behind levels of building and construction activity - - -?---That is correct.
PN730
- - - and employment resulting from such activity; you agreed with that proposition?---I certainly have.
PN731
Yes. So can you perhaps explain to me the difference between what I have put in relation to manning levels and the proposition that is there. Doesn't that imply that - - -?---No, it doesn't.
PN732
- - - new entrants are needed?---No, no. No, it doesn't imply that at all. What it implies is that training positions are needed. I mean, you are talking about implications. You are doing plenty of implying there yourself, Mr Calver. We have never been silent on the fact that positions aren't available. The whole industry has degenerated into a system of subcontract where the major builders are not longer employing anybody. The subcontractors' prices are cut to the bone by the greedy builders. They claim they are unable to employ apprentices. Therefore, there are no training positions available. As I said to you a moment ago and I say in every forum in which I appear, you show me a position available for an apprentice in this industry and I will show you 500 kids ready to take it.
PN733
Well - - -?---So it is not a lack of new entrants. It is a lack of positions for entrants that is the problem.
PN734
Surely the creation of skill based apprenticeships will assist with having employees in the industry engage with young people; surely part of the problem that you have alluded to without some of the rhetoric is that we need young people to come into this industry and we need them to be made aware of the industry as a way to solve this problem, rather than blaming it on employers?---I don't subscribe to that theory whatsoever. If you create a system where you have apprenticeships in schools, not only will it be a very dangerous situation but it won't fix the problem at all. That is not the problem.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN735
Well, perhaps you can encapsulate the problem for me?---Well, I will repeat it. There are no training positions available in our industry. The employers do not offer training positions. If you want another very good reason for that, it is to do with economic rationalism where everybody decided they would outsource everything. The Commonwealth, state and local governments no longer employ, or hardly employ any tradespeople at all. What they have done is outsourced it all, and the people they have outsourced it to don't put on trainees. Therefore, there has been a dramatic drop in the amount of trainees in our industry.
PN736
How are school based apprenticeships mostly delivered currently?---Well I don't know of too many school based apprenticeships in our industry.
[2.41pm]
PN737
In Queensland and in the ACT, how are school based apprenticeships delivered?---No, Mr Calver, there are no school based apprenticeships in the ACT to my knowledge. There is a pre-apprenticeship program being run there by CITEA. I am not aware of there being any school based apprenticeships in the ACT.
PN738
How are current school based new apprenticeships delivered in Queensland?---I couldn't accurately answer that.
PN739
Are they delivered through group training companies?---There is a scheme up there where, I believe, there is a tripartite agreement between the group training schemes and RTO and the high schools.
PN740
I put it to you that the formation of group training companies to facilitate school based apprenticeships will assist to overcome the problem that you perceive, that it will mean that there will be many more apprenticeships trained and that there will be many more flexible pathways to their training. Is that not the case?---No, it is not the case at all. I mean, you have put it to me, could you give me a reason why you believe that is correct?
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN741
I am not giving evidence, you are?---Well, you asked me a question and I told you I don't believe what you have said. Can you tell me why you believe it?>
PN742
Well, you tell me why you don't believe what I have said to be the case rather than asking me questions because otherwise I will have to declare you a hostile witness?---I don't think that is being hostile. If you don't like me answering the questions the way I do, don't ask silly questions.
PN743
Commissioner - - -
PN744
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN745
MR CALVER: I think that I might ask that Mr Fraser answer the question and I seek to declare him a hostile witness.
PN746
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't think that is necessary just yet.
PN747
MR CALVER: All right.
PN748
THE COMMISSIONER: But, Mr Fraser, it is not necessarily the opportunity for a witness to be argumentative with the person asking the question. If you give your answer as best you can and then it is up to Mr Calver to follow it up later?---Okay, I apologise, Mr Commissioner.
PN749
It is all right, thanks?---No, I do not believe - you asked the question - my answer is I do not believe that involving group schemes will make it any better.
PN750
What is wrong with group training schemes then?---Do you want the short answer or have you got a lot of time>?
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN751
I would prefer that you didn't ask me questions, I would prefer if you would just - - -?---Well, do you want me to tell you in one sentence what is - - -
PN752
- - - answer the questions that I put to you, Mr Fraser, it is not that difficult?---Mr Calver, you just asked me a question. Which answer do you want? Do you want me to give you all the reasons why group training schemes are no good or do you want the short answer in this case here?>
PN753
The answer that you prefer to give is the answer that this Commission wishes to hear?---Okay, group training schemes, and in particular the one in Queensland that is involved in the school based apprenticeships, have a very high drop out rate from third year onwards. Actually, if you were to go and look at the statistics, which I can't quote off the top of my head, you will see that there are very few third and fourth year apprentices whatsoever. The completion rates are abysmal because group training schemes are unable to farm out these apprenticeships as the later stages of their training, therefore, people go in with high expectations and then they - or of cases, the don't come out at the other end. When you have a school based apprenticeship scheme and the kids there, the young boys and girls that go into these schemes drop out and don't get a chance to finish. They certainly tell their friends and their friends are less inclined to become involved in that kind of setup so that is why I believe the group schemes don't do a very good job on it.
PN754
Well, I put it to you that the evidence we have heard today in this Commission is that the attrition rates for school based apprentices are at 5 percent compared with the general attrition rate for apprentices done in the traditional manner of 40 percent and therefore they are far more successful in retaining young people in the industry and having them complete school based apprenticeships and training that assists the industry. Doesn't that somewhat contradict what you have just put to me?---Well, if you can show me empirical evidence of that I am very happy to look at it.
PN755
MR MAXWELL: Commissioner, sorry, Commissioner - - -
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN756
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Maxwell?
PN757
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, I just wish Mr Calver to clarify his statement. It wasn't that the attrition rates in group training companies are 5 percent, the position was that the attrition rates in regard to the Queensland group training company involved in school based apprenticeships was 5 percent and that was based on those that are currently in training.
PN758
MR CALVER: Mr Maxwell, has stated that it is the Queensland group training company I am talking about, which it is, and that the figures from that which have been communicated to Master Builders is a most lower attrition rate than for traditional apprenticeships. Doesn't that tend to contradict your view of the way in which group apprenticeship schemes operate?---No, not all, I think Mr Maxwell filled me in with the information I needed there where he explained to me that those figures are from one small survey of current employees, so, no, it doesn't alter my opinion whatsoever. My opinion - - -
PN759
You have changed your view?--- - - - is based on 20 years experience in this industry and watching how it operates. There is one small aberration in a survey at a point in time does not change my opinion. If you can show to me in five years time that this has been what is happening, well, I will reconsider the issue.
PN760
We have also heard evidence, Mr Fraser, that school based apprenticeships help children, particularly children, say, in year 9 and year 10 who are at risk to find a connection with industry and to find a connection with a pathway to training into industry and it assists them greatly - - -?---I wasn't aware there were any year 9 or year 10 children involved in it.
PN761
I haven't asked my question yet, I haven't asked my question yet, Mr Fraser, just hold up, please?---I am sorry, Mr Calver, I thought you had.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN762
Hold up, hold up?---You are confusing me.
PN763
Well, you are very easily confused.
PN764
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't think that is possible, Mr Fraser. It was generous of you to say so.
PN765
MR CALVER: It was. In respect of those children, do you disagree that school based apprenticeships will assist them?---I didn't know there were any year 9 or 10 students in school based apprenticeships. I thought they were year 11 and 12, so, no, I don't think it will assist year 9 and 10 children.
PN766
They are chosen for candidates for school based apprenticeships because they are children in need and it has been identified that they can be assisted by being trained and having links with industry. They are chosen for school based - new apprenticeships, traineeships and ultimately to transition into apprenticeships. How, otherwise, would you help these children other than by connecting them with school based apprenticeships?---Well, I could answer that also. I am a director of an organisation called, the Live and Learn Foundation in New South Wales which is a tripartite charity run by the New South Wales Government by private enterprise and myself who are devoted entirely to looking after children at risk so I don't think by making promises to nine and 10 year olds - year 9 and year 10 children in school that they may or may not be involved in the program when they are in year 11 or 12 is really the answer to the problem. As a matter of fact I have seen a lot of disillusioned kids who have been promises all kinds of employment schemes that have not worked. But, again, I thought the question was not phrased quite rightly when you said year 9 or 10, they are not year 9 or 10 children, they are year 11 and 12 children that are doing school based apprenticeships.
PN767
Does a connection - a linkage between school and industry help children at risk?---A connection between school and industry help children at risk, I suppose you would have to say, yes, there would be some connections there where that works.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN768
Are you saying, yes, or do you have to say, yes, or are you saying, yes?---No, I say, in some cases it works and in other cases it does not work. I mean, I am heavily involved in this, as I said before. Take the catering industry, the catering employers will tell you, if you go to the GITEC meetings and listen to them speak, that the children who do the VET in schools program are so badly damaged by it that it takes them another couple of years to get rid of all the bad habits they have been taught and they are totally opposed to it. So, no, you can't say that it is a blanket - it makes a difference. But there are certain things where the kids do get an advantage out of it.
PN769
In paragraph 15 of your witness statement you talk about the manner in which you prefer - the industry preferred students to be assessed. You say:
PN770
The industry preferred students to be assessed against the competency standards on site in a real work situation.
PN771
You say that, do you not?---That is correct.
PN772
Yes. In respect of school based apprenticeships, isn't the major difference between them and your preferred method of training, which is pre-vocational training, the fact that they experience real life work on site?---Sorry, can you repeat that again, I didn't quite catch that?
PN773
Isn't the major difference between the form of training that you prefer and express a preference for in your witness statement, that is, pre-apprenticeship or pre-vocational training, isn't the major difference between that and school based apprentices, that in the latter, they experience real work on site?---No, that is not correct. If you read the whole of my statement instead of paraphrasing it you will see that I say the school based apprenticeships do not give them the on-the-job training because they are not allowed the time on the job to learn. They get very short periods on the job, they can't learn properly, can't be assessed and are exposed to danger. You will see in our submissions we quote the Underhill Report which was commissioned by the Victorian
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
WorkCover Authority to deal with the issues of group training and of VET in schools programs where they point out that there is a dramatic difference in the injury rate to, not only group training but VET in schools people. So if you read the whole of my statement you will see I go on to say that and say one of the things we have against the system is that there will not be proper on-the-job training provided. I go on to say that there won't be proper PPE provided, that is personal, protective equipment. I go on to say that there won't be proper inspections of the sites, therefore, heightening the danger to the students. So, no, no, what you said, Mr Calver, is not correct, you have paraphrased me by mentioning one of several clauses referring to that particular issue.
PN774
No, it was a simple question, the major difference, is it not, between pre-vocational training and school based apprenticeships is that one involves real life work situations and the other does not, school based apprenticeships do?---No, that is not correct. If you look at the CITEA submission, you will see that the CITEA scheme which you referred to before as a school based apprenticeship scheme, is not, it is a pre-apprenticeship scheme where the students have block release during their annual leave - their school leave where they go and work, paid labour, paid labour, on building sites for two and three weeks at a time and gain genuine experience as opposed to, what you are saying, where you are looking at a school based apprenticeship where there will be a couple of hours here and there. The children are released onto building sites at their own peril.
PN775
So you agree with the CITEA scheme?---Yes.
PN776
And the CITEA scheme is an adjunct of the school based apprenticeships, is it not?---No, it is not.
PN777
Why is the letter then - - -?---We run the scheme, it is not an adjunct of the school based apprenticeships at all.
PN778
Why is the - - -?---It is a pre-apprenticeship scheme.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN779
Why is the letter that the CFMEU have put in evidence then headed, "School based new apprenticeships in the construction industry"?---Because that is the subject we are dealing with here.
PN780
That is what the CITEA scheme is?---No, it is not, it is not a new apprenticeship, they are not indentured to anybody. They are not in an apprenticeship, they are in a pre-apprenticeship scheme. I was actually in Canberra last week with Mark Southwell the person who runs the scheme for us.
PN781
I will quote to you from the letter:
PN782
The success of the CITEA construction school new based apprenticeship program in the ACT speaks for itself.
PN783
That is what they call it. It is a school based new apprenticeship program, is it not?---No, it is not.
PN784
Well, the letter that you - - -?---They are not an apprentice. They are not in a contract of training.
PN785
The letter that you have put in evidence calls it that. Surely you have to agree with that, Mr Fraser. Would you like me to show you the letter?---CITEA wrote the letter, I didn't write the letter.
PN786
Commissioner, could the letter be shown to the witness, thank you.
PN787
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN788
MR CALVER: Thank you very much. May I have a copy of the CFMEU2 back that I handed Mr Fraser please.
PN789
I will just ask you to read the heading on that letter please, Mr Fraser?---
PN790
In support of the school based new apprenticeship in the construction industry.
PN791
Yes and it is about the CITEA scheme, is it not?---Yes, it is.
PN792
Yes, that is enough then, thank you. It has been put in evidence; I will have the letter back?---Yes, sure.
PN793
Now, in your statement there is an implication that Certificate I, Certificate II and Certificate III in the industry don't articulate. In other words, each of them is in a separate box for separate purposes, but that is not the case, is it? They do articulate, do they not?---No, they don't, they don't. Seven modules articulate - if you read my statement again all of the clauses in it, not just paraphrasing it, I say there categorically, there are only seven modules that are common to Certificates I, II and III. I also go on to say that they stand alone. Certificate I was specifically designed for a VET in school program removing from it the use of tools because that is illegal in Victoria. We didn't want to put something into being that would be contrary to state law. Certificate II, its outcome is group 1 labourer under our awards and Certificate III is a trades level. The workers at Certificate III do not do the same competencies as the workers at Certificate III, one does not articulate into the other.
PN794
But some of those - the seven competencies articulate?---The seven basic ones do, that is correct.
PN795
And without that articulation there would be no funding for the Certificates at those levels, would there?---No, that is not correct, I don't know where you got that idea, that is not correct at all.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN796
I put it to you that articulation from Certificate I to Certificate III is a basic requirement for the training packages to be endorsed by ANTA?---That is not correct. ANTA have endorsed our packages, they are going through today actually, the phone hook-up at the state training authorities and they don't articulate one to the other. A Certificate II in the industry is a stand alone certificate for a builder's labourer. Certificate III in the industry, which has no Certificate I or Certificate II exit points, is for trades only which is categorically stated in the training package.
PN797
This Commission has received evidence from other witnesses:
PN798
The existing Certificate I in general construction and the reviewed Certificate I is the vehicle to ensure that any skills obtained are appropriate recognised at further levels in the Australian qualifications framework chain.
PN799
That is the evidence that is before this Commission. Do you disagree with that proposition, do you?---I just told you, seven of the modules in Certificate I articulate, the other five don't. The other five don't articulate at all by choice of the industry and approved by ANTA.
PN800
Which parts of that proposition which I just read out to you do you disagree with?---Certificate I does not articulate into Certificate II which does not articulate into Certificate III.
PN801
I will read it to you again:
PN802
The existing Certificate I in general construction and the reviewed Certificate I mentioned previously is the vehicle to ensure that any skills obtained are appropriately recognised at further levels in the Australian qualifications framework chain.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN803
What part of that proposition do you disagree with?---That Certificate I doesn't articulate into the others. Seven modules from Certificate I articulate into two different pathways, into Certificate II and into Certificate III.
PN804
Yes, yes, well, I see that you disagree with that proposition then - - -?---That is correct.
PN805
- - - that I just put to you. Okay. Now, the sorts of problems that you have articulated in your witness statement, you say, have been fixed under the CITEA scheme; is that right?---No, I didn't say it has been fixed under the CITEA scheme. What I said was the CITEA scheme which is a pre-apprenticeship scheme is our preferred model.
PN806
But the occupational health and safety problems you point to in your statement have been fixed, have they not, in the CITEA scheme?---No, no, fixed is not the right word, they haven't been fixed.
PN807
What word would you use then?---I would say that they have been looked at in a much more intelligent and thorough manner by the fact that when somebody gets the block released during their holidays in the CITEA scheme, before they go on the site, the CITEA representatives go to the site, inspect the site and make sure that the OH and S on the site is all right, make sure that the children will not be exposed to dangerous tools, make sure that the children are supplied with whatever tools they need and whether they need personal protective equipment.
PN808
Yes, so, the fact that these matters can be dealt with properly has got nothing at all to do with the fixing of a safety net wage for these students, has it?---That was a bit out of left field, I thought we were talking about OH and S.
PN809
Please answer the question, Mr Fraser. You can be rude to me after the proceedings, just answer the question?---I wasn't being rude to you, that is not being rude at all, I thought I was quite polite in the way I phrased that.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN810
THE COMMISSIONER: Would you ask your question again please, Mr Calver?
PN811
MR CALVER: Certainly?---Sorry, Mr Commissioner. The answer to the question is, no.
PN812
That is right. The setting of a safety net wage - - -?---No.
PN813
- - - for the new apprentices or the apprentices has got nothing at all to do with the content of the CITEA scheme, has it?---Yes, it does, you misunderstand me. The whole idea of the scheme is the kids go out and have a look at the industry, they are paid by an employer while they are out there, they have actual exposure to working for a living, the employer in return expects quality work from them because he is paying them - he or she for it and so, yes, it is an integral part of it.
PN814
The setting of a safety net wage has nothing to do with the way in which occupational health and safety is dealt with, does it?---Yes, it does.
PN815
How?---Because the person who is paying the wage then has a duty of care.
PN816
But the setting of the safety net wage has got nothing to do with the content of the occupational health and safety involved, does it?---Yes, it does, if they become an employee there are certain legal obligations.
PN817
I am not talking about them becoming an employee, we are talking about setting a safety net wage for them?---Well, I thought if you were paid a wage you were an employee.
PN818
The manner in which the wage is set has got nothing to do with the contract of employment, has it?---No, it has not, that is correct.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN819
No, no, so the way in which occupational health and safety is dealt with at the point when the contract of employment is formed has got nothing to do with the free establishment of the safety net wage, has it?---No, no.
PN820
No?---No, no, you - I disagree with you. The way the wage is set or the amount has nothing to do with it - - -
PN821
Yes?--- - - - but the fact that a wage has been set has a lot to do with it.
PN822
And the content of the school based new apprenticeship schemes can accommodate problems. There are solutions to these problems that you have articulated in respect of the CITEA scheme, are there not? There are solutions to all these problems, are there not, that you - - -?---No.
PN823
- - - have raised in your witness statement?---Of course there is solutions to every problem.
PN824
Yes and being a man who is very prominent in training circles you are better placed than most to assist to solve those problems, are you not?---As well placed as others. Their own organisation has representatives there.
PN825
Yes, so if the CFMEU wanted to co-operate with the introduction of school based new apprenticeships or apprenticeships you could in fact assist to design a scheme that cured the problems that you are raising today, couldn't you?---I would certainly hope that we would be able to participate in something like that.
PN826
Yes and in fact, in your submissions to this Commission, don't you complain that people have not had discussions with you about these matters?---No, we don't complain about that. It is an answer - - -
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN827
Well - - -?---It is an answer to your own submission where we say you have never raised the issue of wages except when it come to new apprenticeships - to apprenticeships in schools.
PN828
Right?---We have deliberately sought meetings with the employers to deal with the whole training wage issue because our training packages cannot be introduced right around the country because there is no training wages for them.
PN829
I put it to you your lack of co-operation in the witness box today demonstrates that you don't wish to co-operate with bringing into place school based apprenticeships, do you, you don't want to co-operate?---We are here saying we believe school based apprenticeships will place the lives of young Australians in jeopardy.
PN830
Yes and that is a smokescreen, really, is it not, for the ideology you want to bring to bear on this matter - are paid only full time adult weekly wages to people who are in training?---I thought there was an apprenticeship wage that we were party to and we supported it.
PN831
Well - - -?---I must be wrong.
PN832
- - - it is part of the CFMEUs submissions to this Commission that there is an existing safety net wage in the award and that is the adult full time weekly wage, is that not your - - -
PN833
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, I must object. Perhaps if Mr Calver can point to where that is stated in our submission. I think if he bothers to read the submission he will see, which was a point the Commonwealth recognised in their written submission in reply, that what the union was saying was that the safety net was the full time apprentice wage not the full time adult wage rate.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR CALVER
PN834
MR CALVER: All right, it is the full time apprentice wage rate?---That is correct.
PN835
Why do you want to punish young people who are working 25 per cent of their time and reduce the likelihood of them being employed by requiring employees to pay them the full time rate?---I - I am totally bemused now, how do you punish people by paying them a wage performing a task.
PN836
You are not answering my question so I will move on. I put it to you, finally, that if you wished to co-operate with the industry you would have assisted to put in place arrangements similar to the CITEA arrangement, that you would have facilitated the introduction of school based apprenticeships instead of opposing them, is that not right?---No, that is not correct at all. We - - -
PN837
Well, you demonstrate to me and the Commission?--- - - - own CITEA in conjunction with a major employer; we put the scheme together there.
PN838
Yes?---We don't control the training in every state in Australia.
PN839
You demonstrate to me how the CFMEU has co-operated one jot towards the introduction at the national level and the national award of school based apprenticeships, one positive contribution that you have made?---We haven't because we oppose it.
PN840
Exactly. No further questions.
PN841
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR HARRIS
PN842
MR HARRIS: Mr Fraser, I represent the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry in these proceedings and if anything I ask is unclear just let me know and I will try and repeat it?---Thank you.
PN843
I won't take too long with you because Mr - my friend has asked many of the questions that I want to ask you. If I could take you to paragraph 11 of your witness statement. In paragraph 11 you state that you have been - I will just check exactly what you say, you have been heavily involved in the development of the respective training packages?---That is correct.
PN844
Virtually. Can you explain what you mean there, how have you been involved?---I am the coach here of the Extreme Advisory Committee that has put together the training packages.
PN845
And - - -?---In all their forms for the last 11 years.
PN846
Thank you, thank you. And you state in paragraph 13:
PN847
That the training packages are currently being reviewed and that a number of problems have been highlighted in that review.
PN848
Did the CFMEU or yourself have a role in identifying those problems?---We were one of the people that identified the problems. There was a questionnaire that actually went out to industry and the problems were identified by, I think, some 70 or 80 contributors to the questionnaire.
PN849
And you stated, going on in paragraph 15:
PN850
That issues relating to assessment methods and criteria were identified in the review.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR HARRIS
PN851
?---That is correct.
PN852
Were they identified by the CFMEU as an issue or are they acknowledged to be an issue?---No, no they all came from the questionnaires.
PN853
Do you accept that they are an issue?---Yes, we certainly do.
PN854
And you also state that:
PN855
ANTE responded by creating a risk management committee and the CFMEU are represented in that committee -
PN856
by yourself?---No, no, you have missed a bit.
PN857
I have missed it, I will go back. You missed a bit. The SBS program, Insight, raised the issue of some of the anomalies in training and the misuse of training packages for young people by various employers. ANTAs Quality Training Council formed a sub committee for risk management. I was invited by the ACT to be the representative on that committee. They have identified, I think, some 15 risks among which is assessment, among which is fully on-the-job, fully off-the-job, etcetera, etcetera, so that is another issue.
PN858
I am just looking here at paragraph 15 of your witness statement and you say that:
PN859
The lack of proper assessment and training was highlighted and lead to ANTA establishing the risk management committee -
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR HARRIS
PN860
of which you are a member. I put it to you, Mr Fraser, that your union are quite capable of addressing issues that arise in the training system through the various training bodies that you are involved with?---We raised the issues of these training bodies but we don't have the numbers, the employers have the numbers there. I am a realist, I always believe in telling the truth.
PN861
Was it your - are you saying that you are not capable of successfully addressing training issues and you do not have a high degree of involvement in the development of training packages and training arrangements for your industry?---No.
PN862
THE COMMISSIONER: Which question do you want him to answer?
PN863
MR HARRIS: I am sorry.
PN864
I will put that again to you, Mr Fraser, I apologise for that?---All the decisions there are consensus decisions.
PN865
Yes?---People raise issue, the issues are dealt with by the people at the meeting and a consensus decision is reached, not always to my satisfaction, but I am their representing the workers of Australia, not any particular CFMEU axe to be ground, so we are prepared to compromise on issues, some of them with the carpentry qualifications - we took a step backwards on that.
PN866
Now, just go to the issue of occupational health and safety. In paragraphs 25 and 26 you raise occupational health and safety issues. Would occupational health and safety issues be a major concern for the CFMEU?---They certainly are, one of my national responsibilities as OH and S - I am on quite a few national OH and S committees.
PN867
Are you aware of the general duties possessed by employers under state and territory OH and S legislation to provide - - -?---I certainly am.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR HARRIS
PN868
Are you aware that these duties extend to apprentices?---Yes, I am, I actually refer to that.
PN869
Okay and they would also extend to school based apprentices?---Yes, they would.
PN870
PN871
I will just take you to one specific paragraph, paragraph 25 and in that paragraph you say, apart from the NOSC statistics referred to in the CFMEUs written submission:
PN872
Further support for our position can be found in the attached Safety at Work for Apprentices and Trainees Fact Sheet published by the Queensland Department of Employment and Training.
PN873
?---Correct.
PN874
And that is included at appendix 5 of this document. Mr Fraser, could you explain to me in what sense that provides support for your position?---I quote from here saying:
PN875
In recent years there have been a number of workplace fatalities or injuries involving apprentices and trainees, particularly in the electrical industry, and further state that employers of apprentices and trainees have the obligation -
PN876
etcetera, etcetera.
PN877
I put it to you that this fact sheet we are looking at at appendix 5 demonstrates that there is quite a lot of work done in jurisdictions to provide information to employers on employees, on their rights and obligations under OH and S?---There certainly is probably more so in New South Wales and the other states because they have a consultation policy.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR HARRIS
PN878
And you are also aware that the matter that brings us before the Commission today won't cover the electrical industry, are you not?---Yes, I am aware of that.
PN879
Okay. Just a couple more general questions. Is training important to an industry such as building and constructions?---Sorry, I didn't hear that.
PN880
Sorry. Is training of employees important to an industry such as - - -?---It certainly is.
PN881
It certainly is?---If we could get a bit more training in the industry we would have less accidents. One building worker a week is killed and you can nearly attribute to all of that to a lack of training.
PN882
And would you say it is important to attract new entrants to the building construction industry?---It most certainly is, I have already said that in answering Mr Calver's questions.
PN883
And is it an industry which is subject to skill shortages, particularly, in recent years?---It is.
[3.12pm]
PN884
And, you have said that OH and S issues are one of the reasons that you oppose the introduction of school based apprentices, are you aware that school based apprentices in the building and construction industry currently operate in Queensland?---Yes, I am aware of that.
PN885
Yes. Do you have any information on the rates of injury or accidents for school based apprentices in Queensland in the construction industry?---No, I do not, off the top of my head.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR HARRIS
PN886
Okay. That is fine - that was just a question for you. And, Mr Fraser, is it not the case that the strategic plan for 2003 was adopted by the CTA Board and forwarded to ANTA?---Yes, it was.
PN887
No further questions, Commissioner.
PN888
PN889
MR STEWART: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN890
Mr Fraser, I will ask you a number of questions on behalf of the Commonwealth. Firstly I will ask you a number of questions about OH and S issues. And as I understand it, in response to a question from Mr Harris you have indicated already that you do not have any specific knowledge of OH and S issues in the school based apprenticeship scheme in Queensland?---No, I said before my knowledge in that is based on VET in schools in Victoria.
PN891
MR STEWART: All right, well that was what I was coming to. In paragraph 26 of your statement you indicate that the State government has banned work experience students from using power tools?---That is correct.
PN892
Are you aware that those work experience students are not employees?---Yes, I am aware of that.
PN893
Are you aware that they are not school based new apprentices?---I am aware of that.
PN894
Are you aware that - - - ?---I am also aware that there is an age barrier as well as the employment barrier on that.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR STEWART
PN895
Are you aware that they are not - neither are they school based apprentices?---That is correct because they do not have any in Victoria.
PN896
That is right. So then you move on, in paragraph 26, to indicate some kind of survey that you undertook?---That is correct.
PN897
Would you agree that that survey does not - also does not relate to school based new apprentices?---It says there that it is based on VET in schools.
PN898
It does not relate to employees?---No, it is based on VET in schools.
PN899
And it certainly does not relate to school based apprentices?---No, it does not. The Victorian survey - as I said, there is no school based apprenticeships in Victoria and not likely to be any.
PN900
Now coming to the Underhill research, which you have referred to in your evidence, would you agree that the Underhill analysis has been exploratory only?---No. I think that the Underhill analysis has been a very comprehensive one. Actually there has been a second stage of it now I believe. The figures were so alarming that the Victorian Workcover Authority wanted to go further into it.
PN901
But it did not go beyond Workers' Compensation data analysis did it - it was just a desk top data analysis, do you agree with that?---No, I believe that Ms Underhill went out and interviewed people as well.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR STEWART
PN902
And would you agree that any explanations for the changes that were looked at by Underhill are only tentative. The explanations that were come up with were only tentative. Would you agree with that?---No, no. I have spoken to Ms Underhill about that. I am on an ACTU committee and a NISI committee dealing with labour market - labour market changes and the effect on OH and S, and I have been addressed by Ms Underhill on this particular issue and no, she is convinced that she does not think it is an indication. She thinks it is empirical proof that there is a much higher injury rate to group training apprentices and to casual workers.
PN903
Could the witness be shown combined exhibit 1, folder 2, thank you?---Thank you.
PN904
And in particular, Mr Fraser, I would refer you to tab 1 and do you see that that is a working paper. It is a paper from a working paper series entitled, "New employment, new risks" an exploratory study of work place injuries - - - ?---Yes.
PN905
- - - amongst Victorian group apprentices, by Elsa Underhill, and then I would refer you to the final page of that paper, section 5, headed, "Conclusion" - sorry, it is - it is just before tab 2 - at the end of the paper?---Okay. Yes.
PN906
Now, you disagreed when I put it to you that the analysis was exploratory. Could you read the first sentence of the conclusion please?---
PN907
This analysis has been exploratory with two key findings.
PN908
Thank you. Now, you disagreed that - that any changes that were - any explanations that were arrived at Ms Underhill were tentative, could you read the third sentence please, in the conclusion?---
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR STEWART
PN909
Their injury growth rate far exceeds their employment expansion rate.
PN910
And then the next sentence - explanations - sorry, the sentence beginning, "Explanations"?---
PN911
Explanations for the changes evident in Workers' Compensation claims for apprentices and trainees in Victoria are tentative and point to the need for further research beyond Workers' Compensation data analysis.
PN912
That is what I said.
PN913
Thank you, so you are - - - ?---The figures were so alarming that the Victorians are continuing with them.
PN914
So, you are saying that the - you are agreeing now that the finding - the explanations provided by the Underhill studies are tentative?---I stand corrected on that, yes.
PN915
And it also suggests, in that same sentence, that ends up by suggesting that the further research be done beyond Workers' Compensation data analysis, do you agree now that it was just a desk top data analysis that could not possibly discover the explanations for these - for the patterns that were seen in the data?---That was my understanding from talking to Ms Underhill that she had conducted interviews as well as gathering statistics and, as I said, she has done further work now.
PN916
Now I would ask you some questions about the final paragraph in your witness statement - paragraph 28?---Yes.
PN917
And in there you state that payment for all time spent in off the job training is a constant feature of training arrangements under the NBCIA?---That is correct.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR STEWART
PN918
Are you aware that the model school based apprentice clause does - does not pay school based apprentices for time spent in training off the job?---It does not?
PN919
It does?---It does, yes.
PN920
And are you aware that it basically has a formula which pays the school based apprentice one thirty eighth of the full weekly rate for the time they spend in work on the job and then they are paid 25 per cent in addition to that for the deemed time spent off the job in training?---I was not aware of the 25 per cent, but yes, I was aware that the model clause has that.
PN921
Are you able to explain to the Commission why that formulation was adopted in the model clause?---No, I cannot. Mr Maxwell could do that better than me.
PN922
Do you reject that - the formulation used in the model clause?---No. No.
PN923
But are you aware that the ACTU has agreed to it?---Yes, we have made our feelings made known to the ACTU. We were not part of that agreement.
PN924
Do you agree that - are you aware that that model clause with that formulation is now in at least 17 Federal awards that cover apprentices?---Yes, I am aware that the Commonwealth has made it a mission.
PN925
Sorry, the Commonwealth has made an admission?---Made it a mission, to go around and include it in everybody's awards whether they want it or not.
PN926
And we would not have got very far without the agreement of key trade unions in this country, would we?---No, no. That is correct. There are certain industries where I agree that there is a place for it. But our arguments are not that, our arguments on OH and S - too dangerous, which by the way is the opinion of the employers I should have brought some along today.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR STEWART
PN927
So returning to the OH and S issues we - we saw in paragraph 25, where - where you deal with OHS issues and it is in paragraph 25 where you refer to Queensland evidence - - - ?---Yes.
PN928
- - - but you - you have conceded that you do not have any direct knowledge of school based apprenticeships OH and S issues in Queensland, and then you provide additional material in paragraph 26 and you have conceded that that additional material does not relate to school based apprentices?---That is correct, I have said that in the statement.
PN929
So in fact you have no direct knowledge of OH and S issues in relation to school based apprentices in Australia in the building and construction industry, do you?---No, I have got to be honest and say no I do not. I hope I never do.
PN930
Finally, in relation to the - the ACT CITEA and MBA schemes, they are employees, aren't they, the students who participate in those schemes?---No, they are not employees - employees of CITEA.
PN931
They are employed - they are paid a wage when they work for the employer on the job?---Yes, that is correct.
PN932
So they are employees?---They are employees when they are on the job.
PN933
Do you know what industrial arrangement they are employed under?---No. No, I do not to be honest. I have had it explained to me but I could not tell you off the top of my head.
PN934
Would it jog you memory to be told that they are employed under the National Training Wage Award?---That would probably be correct, under A and B.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER XXN MR STEWART
PN935
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, I do not wish to correct Mr Stewart but perhaps he might want to check with CITEA that in fact CITEA has an enterprise agreement.
PN936
THE COMMISSIONER: No doubt the National Training Wage Award is used for the purposes of the no-disadvantage test in the circumstances like that.
PN937
MR STEWART: Finally, I would like you to consider the situation of a school based apprentice who works one day a week and then spends a quarter of a day in off the job training, do you think it would be fair that such a school based apprentice should be paid five days' wages for that?---Five days' wages for that, no, I do not think that would be fair and I do not think anybody is claiming that.
PN938
Would you agree that any award that provided that would be an absurdity?---Five payments payment - no, of course it would be. We are looking at payment for on and off the job - - -
PN939
Even if it was the NBCIA it would be absurd, wouldn't it?---No, we only look for payment for work performed.
PN940
Such an award should be changed, shouldn't it, if it did provide that?---No, it didn't, because it doesn't provide that. There is no provision in the NBCIA for school based apprenticeships so it does not apply.
PN941
That completes my questioning, Commissioner.
PN942
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER RXN MR MAXWELL
PN943
MR MAXWELL: Yes, Commissioner, I will just be I think brief. Mr Fraser, you were asked by Mr Calver in regard to articulation and in regard to the requirements under ANTA that there be Certificate I, Certificate II and Certificate III in training packages, and that they articulate in to each other. Can you inform the Commission of the qualifications under the civil construction training package?
PN944
MR CALVER: Well, Commissioner, I think this is a new matter with respect.
PN945
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, the civil construction training package is one that applies under the National Building and Construction Industry Award and under the civil construction training package there is no Certificate I.
PN946
MR CALVER: This is a new matter. Mr Fraser was not cross-examined in respect of that training package.
PN947
THE COMMISSIONER: It is all right. I think I have heard the answer haven't I, Mr Maxwell.
PN948
MR MAXWELL: Mr Fraser, in regard to the strategic plan voted on by the CTA board was that vote unanimous?---No, it was not.
PN949
In regard to the Underhill report if I can take you to that report - - -
PN950
THE COMMISSIONER: Have you still got that in front of you?---Yes, I have thank you, Commissioner.
PN951
MR MAXWELL: And if you go to section 4 of that report, which I think is about the fourth page in - where it talks about growth in Workers' Compensation claims are ..... in trainees in Victoria?---Yes.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER RXN MR MAXWELL
PN952
Now it is claimed there that the Workers' Compensation payments for work related injuries are claimed against the Victoria WorkSafe Authority, once an injured worker has been absent from work for more than 10 working days?---Yes.
PN953
Or their medical costs exceed a minimum reporting level - it then goes on, further down that paragraph, beginning:
PN954
However, the database excludes minor injuries requiring 10 or less days off with low level medical expenses. The analysis understates the overall rate of injury.
PN955
Would you agree with that statement, or with that report?---Yes, that is right.
PN956
And, is it the case that in regard to the National - the NOSH report on Workers' Compensation claims that they are only based on injuries requiring 10 days or more off work or a certain level of medical expense?---That is correct.
PN957
And would - - -
PN958
MR CALVER: Well, my friend is leading and the weight upon which we can put that matter will be addressed, Commissioner, but leading in this manner I do not think is assisting the Commission.
PN959
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN960
MR MAXWELL: Well, Commissioner, I am just trying to point out to the Commission that the Workers' Compensation claims are not a true reflection of the injury rates within the industry.
**** LINDSAY JAMES FRASER RXN MR MAXWELL
PN961
THE COMMISSIONER: But you could put that in submissions, if you like.
PN962
MR MAXWELL: Okay, Commissioner. Mr Fraser, finally in regard to the issue of paid training time, if a person enters into a contract of employment for a training arrangement that requires off the job training and on the job work, do you believe that the person should be paid for both the off the job training and the on the job work?---Most definitely.
PN963
And it should be paid for the actual time spent in off the job training and the actual time spent on, on the job?---That is correct.
PN964
MR CALVER: Well, my friend is leading again. I mean - - -
PN965
MR MAXWELL: I have no further questions.
PN966
MR CALVER: Right.
PN967
PN968
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, is that the evidence?
PN969
MR MAXWELL: Yes.
PN970
MR CALVER: Yes, concludes the evidence, Commissioner.
PN971
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, do you want a short break to organise the bar table?
PN972
MR MAXWELL: Yes, if that please the Commission, that would be very - - -
PN973
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. We will take a 10 - we will take a 10 minute break.
PN974
MR MAXWELL: Good. Thank you, Commissioner.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.30pm]
RESUMED [3.54pm]
PN975
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Calver.
PN976
MR CALVER: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN977
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you need the lectern. Are you all right like that?
PN978
MR CALVER: I think that - I looked around for one and I could not see a lectern, Commissioner.
PN979
THE COMMISSIONER: Has somebody stolen it? Well, we will make one available for you tomorrow. Sorry about that.
PN980
MR CALVER: No, no, I am fine. I was propping my papers, Commissioner. Thank you for your concern. It is appreciated. If the Commission pleases, the operation of the training system and industries occupational health and safety arrangements are not on trial as part of these proceedings. To the extent that Mr Fraser admitted that the CFMEU would cooperate in designing school based apprenticeship schemes, these things could to the best of all our abilities be cured. This case, in one level, is quite simple. And - - -
PN981
THE COMMISSIONER: Here we go. It is made simpler.
PN982
MR CALVER: And it is made simpler by your very helpful and appreciative associate. Thank you. Much obliged. Yes. At one level this case is very simple. It is about removing an impediment to the establishment of school based apprentices. Without a safety net wage specific to this category of engagement, part of the package is missing and we made that plain in our written submission in reply, MBA2 which with our other submissions marked before you today we rely upon in their entirety.
PN983
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I have read those. You do not have to - - -
PN984
MR CALVER: No, no. I am not going to go over those, sir. I am just making it plain - that is the point that we make. Folder 2 of common exhibit 1 is an ANTA letter and that letter shows quite clearly that as soon as a safety net wage arrangement is put in place, under the various States that are there mentioned in that letter, particularly in Victoria, school based apprenticeships can be rolled out.
PN985
THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry. Would you take me - folder - - -
PN986
MR CALVER: Certainly. I will take you to that, sir. I think the Commonwealth will be taking you to it.
PN987
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, folder - yes, I have got it.
PN988
MR CALVER: Yes. Folder 2, exhibit 1 - it is a letter from ANTA that seeks to overcome some of the misleading material put before you by the CFMEU.
PN989
THE COMMISSIONER: From Mr Stevens.
PN990
MR CALVER: And I take you to Victoria, in particular - - -
PN991
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN992
MR CALVER: On page 2 it says:
PN993
The Office of Training and Tertiary Education has advised basically that new apprenticeships would flow and no further approval process would be required once a training wage were in place -
PN994
industrial agreement - arrangement is in place, as expressed there. The lack of a safety net wage makes the CFMEUs premonition of failure of school based apprenticeships a self fulfilling prophecy. At that level, as I say, these proceedings are quite simple. We need a safety net wage in order to make the package complete and that is why we relied upon the ANTA definition of what a school based apprenticeship is, part of it is having an underlying safety net wage.
PN995
It is astonishing that this is indeed from my research is the first contested matter in respect of the establishment of a safety net wage for this category of employment. It has been rolled out, based upon a model Full Bench decision in a large number of other awards. There is no arbitrated decision in respect of this subject area to guide us and we say there is no need because it is so - at the level of simplicity I have put - it is such a fundamental part of the nature of school based apprenticeships that there be a safety wage that it is astounding in one respect that the matter is being arbitrated.
PN996
There are however a number of matters and issues that have made the proceedings more complex than they should have been and are at first blush. The way in which the safety net arrangements have been incorporated into the current award architecture is here at issue and you raise that yourself, sir. As we emphasised in both our written submissions, MBA1, MBA2 and MBA3, the draft order has been carefully prepared in order to integrate it with the current award architecture.
PN997
We have been highly conservative in the way that we have applied the model clause. It has meant that the concept of new apprenticeships, as I said in my remarks earlier today, have been de-constructed and the so-called traditional form of apprenticeship has been allowed for in the draft order. Now, it is for another day that the issue of traineeships articulating the school based apprenticeship arrangements can be argued. It is for another day that the merits of those as part of the award safety net can be argued. It is just suffice to say at the moment that traineeships are deliberately excluded from the draft order and the National Training Wage Award which covers traineeships has provision for school based and part time traineeships - something else which we have been conservative in the sense that a part time apprenticeship has not been allowed for - a school based apprenticeship which has a deemed provision about time served is there, but it is not per se a part time apprenticeship.
PN998
For school based and part time traineeships are paths that we would like to see articulated, however, because of the way that clause 39.3 operates and the way in which it has attenuated the concept of traineeships and has discouraged them we will wait another day to argue that matter. So, not only - not only are we merely talking about the establishment of a safety net wage, as part of something fundamental, we are not talking about traineeships or upsetting the entire weight of the award or its architecture, the draft order has been drafted to conservatively fit with the current award - warts and all.
PN999
Why are we doing it? Well, Mr Fraser has said it is because the nasty, greedy builders do not want to engage apprentices and he used the expression, "greedy builders". By way of - - -
PN1000
THE COMMISSIONER: You have got to avoid saying, "we do".
PN1001
MR CALVER: By way of rebuttal I would like to take the Commission, and my colleagues at the bar table, to a summary of the rationale for the way in which apprenticeships have declined, which appears in discussion paper number 10 of the Royal Commission into the Building and Construction Industry. And this is - this is put as rebuttal and therefore it is - it is not a matter that needed to be dealt with in respect of prior submissions to the Commission.
PN1002
And if I can take the Commission, particularly to page 26 of that discussion paper.
PN1003
THE COMMISSIONER: I will mark that for identification purposes as MBA6.
PN1004
PN1005
MR CALVER: Before I move on to it, as part of CFMEU2, Mr Maxwell has labelled all items emanating from the Royal Commission as if they were tainted. He has called the Royal Commission, not unsurprisingly given its findings, a kangaroo court. On the other hand, in respect of print number 929454, the CFMEU were quite happy for Vice President Ross in part to rely on another - another Royal Commission discussion paper in reaching a finding favourable to them, and I will direct the Commission's attention to the appropriate part of print number 929454. I will hand it to you for your convenience, sir.
PN1006
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, I will not mark that.
PN1007
MR CALVER: No. I do not seek for it to be marked, sir. And if you go to paragraph 86 of the Vice President's decision which, in MBA2 - MBA2 and 3, particularly 3, we have sought to distinguish. However here we have the reliance by Vice President Ross in discussion paper number 3 - Productivity and Performance in the Building and Construction Industry. And he relies on it, for a conclusion which is articulated in paragraph 87. The Commission - this - this case therefore, stands as a proposition that the Commission has relied upon discussion papers issued by the Royal Commission in the past, has done so to reach a decision favourable to the CFMEU.
PN1008
We make the point that a Royal Commission is the highest enquiry in the land and these discussion papers have been utilised by this Commission in the past. Page 26 is a distillation, under paragraph 3.5 in the discussion paper, of a number of studies - three key studies into the construction industry that deal with work force issues and the reasons why skills shortages are evident. It analyses one of the reports that is before the Commission, that is the Building Brighter Futures report, present and future skill needs in the building and construction industry. Basically the summary is that there is a decline in apprenticeships and traineeships in the building and construction industry; something that came out from the CTA analysis - a report that is endorsed by a board upon which the CFMEU sits.
PN1009
There is an increase in the use of technology and the subsequent need to update training. This is very key to the proceedings today, the complexity of the current apprentice and training system - and that is one reason that we foreshadow, perhaps, another discussion on another day about better simplifying the arrangements and it is another reason we highlight the conservatism of what we have done. The need for flexibility and consistency in training, and that is why we want the MCEETYA consistent principles to be rolled out and school based apprentices to be applied consistently through the national award Australia wide.
PN1010
The need for government and industry to work together to promote careers in the industry and enhance the skills of those working in the industry. The enhancement of skills is quite clear, including from those children who are at risk at school, it benefits children and it benefits the industry. The last two, the increased awareness of the importance of occupational health and safety and compliance training. If nothing else, these proceedings have underlined to all parties that they have to work harder at OH and S but it has also underlined that there are schemes in place brought to you by the CFMEU that show that OH and S arrangements can be improved for the benefit of young people, the CITEA scheme and others and the CFMEU has admitted, with their cooperation, these matters can be designed to minimise OH and S difficulties.
PN1011
The problems with the implementation of national training packages in the building and construction industry. Those problems have been gone to by Mr Fraser and by Mr Wilson, they have been mentioned by Mr Balzary; we contend that we should prefer Mr Wilson's evidence over that of the obdurate and uncooperative evidence submitted to this Commission by Mr Fraser.
PN1012
The discussion paper at page 36 also is useful in that it has two paragraphs on that page which indicate the rationale for the recommendations, which are before you in MBA1, about the problems for trainees and I draw them to your attention as another reason we haven't sought to incorporate in the draft order issues dealing with school based traineeships as part of new apprenticeships.
PN1013
We admit that traineeships do not include traditional apprenticeships, which are at the Certificate III level, generally of three years duration, are not covered by the National Training Award and are provided for in industry awards as apprenticeships, so the draft order is expressed to cover school based apprenticeships only. It thus follows the intent of the Full Bench in print S3850 in its entirety, subject to the matters set out in part three of MBA's initial submission, MBA1, and I won't take you back to those.
PN1014
We would suggest that the CFMEU should not carp about the difference between the model clause there established in the draft order and the test case standard but rather be required to show what barriers there are to following the Full Bench precedent, one that is to implement by its own terms improved vocational training arrangements throughout Australia, by its own terms provides that vital link to rolling out those training arrangements, that is a safety net wage, an appropriate safety net wage though, Commissioner, not one that is inappropriate, and I will come back to that.
PN1015
The nub of the argument is quite clear. We want a safety net wage established in the award so we can help young people choose a career in the building and construction industry and be paid fairly. We don't want them to be paid in a way that would discourage employers from engaging. We need a skilled workforce. Around 60 per cent of the industry's workforce comprises skilled tradespeople compared with around 13 per cent in all industries and it is probably in the light of that statistic that I will come to the Construction Training Australia Report, part of which was marked as MBA5.
PN1016
You sought some clarification in respect of this document. You mentioned industry forecasts and Commissioner, if you turn to page 29 of that report, the forecasts for the sectors of the industry between 2000 and 2007, upon which the report relies for its projections, are shown. The employment in the industry will grow from around 680,000 in 2003 - it already in one sense has grown beyond that according to some ABS statistics, to around 742,000 in 2007 and that is reflected in table 4.2 on page 31. Now you read the central volume measures against that employment level so if you look at page 29 and then look at page 31, you will see the activity that is expected and you can compare that with the employment numbers that are expected, Commissioner.
PN1017
Even though the employment is forecast to dip in 2004, on some projections the market is now forecasting an activity post 2004 even higher than that, so in a sense that confirms the information in the last three paragraphs that you will see on page 30 of the report, that deal with employment forecasts and the basis of those forecasts.
PN1018
We say that apprenticeships are a function of market activity and opportunity so a move to increased specialisation is also a causal contributor to the decline in apprentice numbers. However, without the opportunity to engage young people from school without establishing those linkages, we are denying young people an opportunity to work in the industry. We need these young people.
PN1019
Page 31 of the Construction Training Australia Strategic Plan has employment forecasts for selected ASCO four digit occupations and the figures illustrate a total increase in employment of some 22,807. This is new employees required to meet the market requirements. We have to get them from somewhere. We want to get young people and train them. If you add that with the normal replacement rate, you need an industry which is generally considered to be five per cent of the workforce, there is a significant requirement for increased apprentice intake to meet the continuing long term decline of apprentices that we have already pointed out to the Commission and the expected growth in employment and skills base for the industry that this Construction Training Australia document exemplifies.
PN1020
School based apprenticeships provide a vehicle to help overcome skills shortages and to encourage young people to enter the industry. They provide a vehicle to meet both those industry aims. Denis Wilson's evidence, reinforced by the Construction Training Australia Strategic Plan, has clearly shown that to be the case. It was shown that through school based apprenticeships, students can receive nationally recognised industry qualifications as part of their senior secondary certificates. For many students, programs provide a rewarding reason for staying at school. They improve their job prospects, they encourage them to join a specific industry given their experience with that industry and their schooling and this reinforces the connection with the industry and assists young people at risk. It is a win win situation and we don't come across them very often in life.
PN1021
On the other hand, what has the CFMEU offered? Well, clearly from the evidence given by their only witness, they offered an intransigent attitude to any form of engagement or recognition of any form of training that does not fit the pattern of a full time apprentice's wage. That attitude hits out at the introduction of school based apprentices by attacking the training system, by picking holes in it and by attacking the industry's record on OH and S in a way that is negative, uncooperative and does not assist in the introduction of something that is vital for the industry.
PN1022
The fact that school based apprenticeships haven't been as widespread as we would like is because there is no safety net wage in place, so for the CFMEU to argue that they haven't been successful or they are not in place is partly the reason we are here today. Hence, the CFMEU is confusing cause and effect when it says that school based apprenticeships are not popular or will not be used or are inconsistently applied because it is, in its opposition, an instrument, the instrument, in preventing their effectiveness. In contrast to Denis Wilson's evidence, what has Lindsay Fraser offered up? Not a jot.
PN1023
We need to differentiate what the CFMEU has suggested, that is VET in schools and a school based apprenticeship. VET in schools is a taster, nothing more. Mr Wilson's evidence has shown that school based apprenticeships are more than that. VET in schools is valuable; it offers opportunities for students to decide if they are interested in the industry and which level they would prefer to pursue, the vocational trade or a professional post year 12.
PN1024
But school based apprenticeships are something more. It is obviously the commencement of an apprenticeship while still at school. It is aimed, therefore, partly at helping students stay at school, those students who might be at risk or who are uncertain about a future career. Students are therefore already committing to the industry whilst learning.
PN1025
That, we would submit, is why the attrition rate for them is lower than those who seek to make the decision of commitment to an industry later on. It makes logical sense. They benefit and the industry benefits. The arrangement can be undertaken through a group training system, through an individual employer or any other suitable arrangement. That is not at issue. The registered training organisation does not necessarily need to be a school; it can be and in most cases is a TAFE provider and such an arrangement is just as successful as a so called normal apprenticeship for both young people and the industry.
PN1026
No-one has exploited or disadvantaged anyone else. Nobody should be throwing around labels about greedy builders or them and us. It is about helping young people and it is about assisting the industry's skill shortages. Mr Fraser's evidence did not seek to address those issues in a serious way or traverse the self-fulfilling prophecy of the failure of the system upon which the entire CFMEU case is based. The CFMEUs assertions and those of Mr Fraser about the nature and extent of the industry's skill shortages are misconceived. Much evidence before you, including Building Brighter Futures, which is at tab five of common exhibit folder one, is all about assisting the industry to form strategies that enable the industry to maintain its productivity into the long term through application of higher skill levels.
PN1027
There are clearly skills shortages, as is evident from any number of the exhibits before the Commission, from Denis Wilson's evidence to the Commission. The issue here is not a short term gain in apprentices over specific periods, as the CFMEU would have us believe; the issue is the long term decline of apprentices as a percentage of the workforce and I won't take you again to the statistics that we refer to in MBA5.
PN1028
Mr Wilson's evidence supports the fact that the real long term trend is a continued decline of apprentices and training relative to forecast growth in employment, reinforced by the CTA document. The industry needs to attract and retain new entrants. School based apprenticeships are the obvious way to provide linkages to industry.
PN1029
There was contradictory evidence about the articulation of certificate one, two and three. We say that Mr Fraser's assertion that there is no direct progression through certificates one, two and three is wrong. The reviewed General Construction Training Package presented to ANTA by the Board of Construction Training Australia is a submission to the National Training Quality Council, upon which Mr Balzary sits, has qualifications and a training package that articulate to higher qualifications and even from Mr Fraser's evidence, that is self evident.
PN1030
Training packages are based upon units of competency and those units of competency under school based apprenticeships are tested in the workplace, that is why school based apprenticeships are better for the testing of competencies and that is why we support them categorically. In the beginning of our submission in reply, we say that no-one has the onus in this matter. The Full Bench decision has clearly established that Commissioner, all you need to be satisfied of is that you are able to exercise your power. The establishment of - - -
PN1031
THE COMMISSIONER: And there is merit.
PN1032
MR CALVER: And there is merit - and there is merit in so-doing, yes. The merit argument is linked with the 111(1)(g) argument, that the threshold is the exercise of power. The establishment of a fair safety net wage for school based apprentices stands in the way of the greater take-up by young people. The Commission is called upon, in the Workplace Relations Act, to exercise its powers so that young people's interests are advanced and in our submission MBA3 we refer to specific sections, and I won't refer the Commission to those again. It should do so in this instance. So we say not only are you called upon to exercise your power but there is a presumption in favour of you exercising that power to assist the competitive position of young people in the market.
PN1033
The setting of a proper, fair and competitive safety net wage is an essential component of the method of engagement before you. The method of engagement will assist young people by allowing linkages between school and work and for them to begin the process of obtaining industry specific skills while still at school. It will skill them for jobs. It will enable them to acquire skills that can articulate into a full, four year traditional apprenticeship if they start at a lower level. It can enable them to go onto that path straight away. The industry will be benefited by attracting a greater number of people and by training people to assist to overcome the real skills shortages that currently exist.
PN1034
The 111(1)(g) application is a smoke screen. The CFMEUs blindness behind that smoke screen to this form of training and the related fair safety net wage is because of its deplorable lack of support for any form of engagement that does not reflect a full time apprentice weekly wage level of compensation and Mr Fraser admitted as much. On a number of grounds and our written submissions we show that the level of compensation envisaged by the CFMEU is just not appropriate.
PN1035
We say whether it is in the application of principle 10 or principle 11, the Commission should recognise that the CFMEU is not motivated by a desire to assist young people or to cooperate in designing a proper scheme for them. Because of its blindness, the CFMEU has failed to see that it is an institution that has outlived its usefulness in helping young people and that the reverse is true. It will prevent them from finding this path into the industry because employers will not employ them on the basis that they must be paid the full time wage rate.
PN1036
There is nothing to stand in the way of the Commission exercising its power in this matter, implementing the draft order and deciding in the public interest that school based apprenticeships should be introduced in this industry, as they have been voluntarily in a large number of other industries and awards before this Commission. I reserve my right to reply to the CFMEU, if it please the Commission.
PN1037
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks Mr Carver. We will adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 2003 [4.26pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #1 FOLDER 1, FOLDER 2, FOLDER 3 PN157
EXHIBIT #MBA1 SUBMISSION DATED 13/06/2003 PN218
EXHIBIT #MBA2 SUBMISSION DATED 30/06/2003 PN218
EXHIBIT #MBA3 SUBMISSION DATED 01/08/2003 PN218
DENIS GRAHAM WILSON, SWORN PN222
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CALVER PN222
EXHIBIT #MBA4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DENIS GRAHAM WILSON DATED 30/07/2003 PN234
EXHIBIT #MBA5 EXTRACT OF DOCUMENT PN286
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAXWELL PN302
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CALVER PN504
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAXWELL PN554
WITNESS WITHDREW PN557
EXHIBIT #ACCI1 SUBMISSIONS DATED 16/06/2003 PN581
EXHIBIT #ACCI2 SUBMISSIONS DATED 29/08/2003 PN581
STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY, SWORN PN582
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR HARRIS PN582
EXHIBIT #ACCI3 STATEMENT OF STEPHEN EDWARD BALZARY DATED 31/07/2003 PN598
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAXWELL PN618
WITNESS WITHDREW PN682
LINDSAY JAMES FRASER, SWORN PN687
EXHIBIT #CFMEU1 SUBMISSION OF CFMEU, DATED 1 AUGUST PN689
EXHIBIT #CFMEU2 SUBMISSION OF CFMEU, DATED 29 AUGUST PN689
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MAXWELL PN691
EXHIBIT #CFMEU3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR L.J. FRASER WITH SIX ATTACHMENTS PN695
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CALVER PN701
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARRIS PN842
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART PN889
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAXWELL PN943
WITNESS WITHDREW PN968
EXHIBIT #MBA6 SUMMARY OF RATIONALE FOUND IN DISCUSSION PAPER NUMBER 10 OF ROYAL COMMISSION INTO THE BUILDING AND CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY PN1005
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