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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 5028
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY
D2003/09
APPLICATION UNDER SECTION 204 OF THE
ACT BY UNITED FIREFIGHTERS'UNION OF
AUSTRALIA FOR CONSENT TO ALTER
ORGANISATION'S ELIGIBILITY RULES
MELBOURNE
10.04 AM, THURSDAY, 16 OCTOBER 2003
Continued from 18.9.03
PN87
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning. Any change in appearances.
PN88
MR M. PERICA: I think I am appearing for the first time, your Honour.
PN89
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Perica.
PN90
MR PERICA: And can I take this opportunity to apologise to the Commission and to the parties generally, for not appearing in the first two mentions in this. I am trying to discern how that happened at the moment.
PN91
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Thanks, Mr Perica.
PN92
MS R. ALLEN: Your Honour, I would like to announce a change of appearance for the Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers' Union.
PN93
MR J. NUCIFORA: If your Honour pleases. Your Honour, I think we are in the same position as Mr Perica, on behalf of the CPSU, and I appear for the ASU. And equally, I apologise for our non-appearances, particularly on the previous occasion. The first hearing before you, just for the record, we had in fact contacted the UFU, and Mr Kaletsis, and we had authorised the UFU to make submissions on our behalf in relation to it, sir, as we did have meetings. But I do apologise for the last - I think it was 18 September, when we did not appear on that occasion and in case anyone was under any illusion we were not, by a non-appearance, suggesting that we were going to withdraw our objection at that stage. But if I may, for the record, just tender a copy of an email which confirms that earlier hearing that we did not appear in. If your Honour pleases.
PN94
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you, Mr Nucifora. Yes, Mr Rozen.
PN95
MR P. ROZEN: Thank you, your Honour. We have got the full contingent at the bar table for the first time.
PN96
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN97
MR ROZEN: Let me say that progress is being made. I know that every time I am here I tell you that and this time it seems to be demonstrated as well. Your Honour, on the last occasion that we were here, I indicated that insofar as the LHMWU and the CEPU were concerned, that there had been discussions and those discussions have continued and have reached the point where, as far as the Liquor Union is concerned, a form of words have been in principal agreed upon to accommodate their objection and we anticipate that that is just a matter of being polished up and that will accommodate the position of that objector.
PN98
So far as the CEPU is concerned, a similar position has been reached. There is a meeting next week. We have not quite got to agreeing on a form of words, but in principle it would seem that the wording that has been arrived at to accommodate the Liquors' interest in the ambulance call takers can probably be used as a basis for the police call takers, which is the interest of the CEPU. And, as far as the ASU and the CPSU are concerned, the UFU wrote to the National Secretary of the ASU on 7 October referring to its objection, advising of today's hearing date for a report back and asking for there to be a meeting and similarly, on 7 October, the UFU wrote to the Joint National Secretary of the CPSU, Mr Carey, also referring to the objection and asking the union to advise if it pursues its objection and to meet and discuss it.
PN99
Now, those two letters have resulted in - or at least in part perhaps have resulted in the appearance of representatives of those unions here. The UFU remains keen to talk to them and to see if their concerns can be accommodated in any way. I indicated, on the last occasion that the matter was before your Honour, that we would be whilst prepared to continue having discussions with the parties we would be seeking some directions from the Commission today to progress the hearing of the matter. I think I may also have indicated that there is an important practical significance to this rule change concerning employees at the Emergency Communications Victoria now.
PN100
They are currently under what is called an Interim Agreement which is the UFU is a party, the ASU party, I think the CEPU and the Liquors' Union are all parties - I stand corrected on that, but I think that is right. That agreement had a nominal expiry date on I think 30 September. It was always anticipated that it would be replaced and in fact it says so in terms in the document that it would be replaced by an on-going agreement, that is a three year agreement commencing on 1 October. That deadline has passed and I am instructed that there are currently negotiations taking place with a view to reaching an agreement that will be presented to the Commission for certification and there is the potential - I do not put it any higher than that, for this coverage issue to impact on the certification of that agreement, or at least its certification insofar as the UFU is concerned.
PN101
So those two processes are running, insofar as the UFU is concerned, in tandem. And it is for that reason that we wish to progress this application without ruling out the on-going discussions that I have already referred to. Can I hand to the Commission some directions - copies of which have been provided to the others at the bar table - - -
PN102
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN103
MR ROZEN: They are probably self explanatory and we, given that the matter has been around for some time, we think that they provide a reasonable opportunity for the parties to set out the material that they rely upon.
PN104
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. All right.
PN105
MR ROZEN: So they are the directions that we seek.
PN106
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Rozen. First of all, Ms Allen, do you confer with what has been said about the LHMU situation?
PN107
MS ALLEN: Yes, your Honour. Thank you. I can confirm that discussions took place following the proceedings before your Honour on 18 September, in Sydney. As a consequence of those discussions a form of wording acceptable to the Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers' Union was put to the UFU and this is reflected in a letter dated 30 September from Mr Tim Ferrari, the Assistant National Secretary of the LHMU. And if I could just for the record, your Honour, table that letter.
PN108
PN109
MS ALLEN: Thank you, your Honour. I am advised that yesterday, 15 October, Mr Ferrari was contacted by facsimile and that subject to very minor amendments, the form of wording reflected in that letter would be acceptable to the UFU and just for the record I will read the wording with the minor amendments, your Honour, and I quote:
PN110
Provided that persons employed at Emergency Communications Victoria, or any successor thereto -
PN111
which is a typographical error -
PN112
in or in connection with ambulance or patient transport work, providing call-taking, despatching or related services to ambulance services and/or patient -
PN113
I beg your pardon, the word - I will just go back to the second line -
PN114
in or in connection with ambulance or patient transport work, who provide call-taking, despatching and related services to ambulance services and/or patient transport companies in Victoria, shall not be eligible for membership of the UFUA -
PN115
so really it is just the amendment to, or the correction of that typographical error of - to "thereto" and substituting "providing" with "who provide", your Honour. On the basis of the advice that I have received that that would be acceptable to the UFU I confirm that the LHMU would also be prepared to withdraw its objection to this application, your Honour, and subject to your Honour confirming your acceptance of the proposed directions that Mr Rozen has tabled to you I believe that we could be in a position to provide that confirmation in writing by 13 November.
PN116
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: By 30 of?
PN117
MS ALLEN: 13 November, I believe we would be.
PN118
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 13 November, yes. Yes, very well. Thank you, Ms Allen.
PN119
MS ALLEN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN120
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Bryant.
PN121
MR BRYANT: Yes, your Honour. I can confirm the report given by Mr Rozen about the progress of discussions between the UFU and the CEPU. We believe that there is a basis for settlement using not dissimilar words that was in the settlement between LHMU and the UFU. We have also arranged a meeting for next week and we believe that if settlement is not reached by then it will be very close to it and there is certainly a clear understanding of what the situation is.
PN122
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Bryant. Mr Perica?
PN123
MR PERICA: Your Honour, I confirm what my friend, Mr Rozen says in relation to the CPSU involvement in this Rule change. Your Honour, it is simply a matter of me discerning what exactly it is that the Victorian Branch - the real issue in their objection and I am sure that we should be able to resolve this matter without the necessity for us to lodge any contentions or witness statements. I propose within the next week to 10 days I will write to Ms Kaletsis and we can do - sort of commence the dialogue, but I should not imagine that the negotiations will take all that long to resolve.
PN124
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. What do you say about the proposed directions then?
PN125
MR PERICA: I would make no submissions about those.
PN126
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, no. Well, you feel positive about the likelihood of a resolution?
PN127
MR PERICA: Yes, from what I generally know about the real issue that is at stake with the Victorian branch I am fairly confident that we should be able to resolve it.
PN128
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Thank you, Mr Perica. Mr Nucifora.
PN129
PN130
MR NUCIFORA: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, we seek to tender that. It just confirms that our union's attitude has been to try and cooperate and we have certainly had discussions with the UFU. They have not yet occurred and it is for that reason that we have expressed concerns with the proposed directions that are before you. We would be opposed to the time line there. I understand that the UFU would be seeking to have a - some predicative - seems to have a predictable time line for this matter to be addressed. We would think though that 30 November, for objectors to lodge contentions and witness statements is - we do not believe, is conducive to pursuing all avenues, or exhausting all avenues and we believe, like the greater majority of this case, as we have all advanced before you that they can be settled.
PN131
I cannot say, and I am not under instructions, your Honour, today to go further than accept as I understand that it was an undertaking from our union in relation to the interim agreement by our - the Victorian - our Victorian Services and Authorities branch in relation to the specific industrial concern that Mr Rozen referred to earlier and in relation to the permanent agreement, I have been trying to get through to the branch and I would suggest that we would be able to address whether we can give an undertaking in relation to the permanent agreement and if you like coverage under that agreement by the UFU with - by the end of this week - that is tomorrow, today is Thursday.
PN132
So we would give that as soon as possible and that does not help us now when we are seeking to address the proposed directions before you but we would have to say at this stage that we remain an objector and that we remain opposed to the time frame as they are. I appreciate why they are there because they are seeking to have the matter dealt with before the end of the year and if these are not dealt with before the end of the year then you know it carries over to probably February/March. I appreciate that and I understand that they would want a specific timetable - - -
PN133
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There is always 1 January, Mr - - -
PN134
MR NUCIFORA: I am sorry, your Honour.
PN135
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There is always 1 January - - -
PN136
MR NUCIFORA: I was thinking of a recess - - -
PN137
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, don't think about a recess.
PN138
MR NUCIFORA: Don't think about recess - but I understand why the time frames are there and I understand now that there is a specific concern in relation to the permanent agreement and to date I do not think, and I might be over-stating, but I believe that I am, that we have been obstructionist in terms of the real concern that the UFU have in terms of members on the job - - -
PN139
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But why would not - I mean 13 November is a month away, why wouldn't you have time to speak with the UFU over the course of the next week and determine whether there is some real prospect of resolving your differences and, if not, getting on then with the preparation of the witnesses statements and contentions?
PN140
MR NUCIFORA: We would - your Honour, we would say that there would be time to do that. I know we did say it, and it is alluded to in the ASU1 that we were seeking to make time in September but I think apart from some telephone calls that did not happen and I am not laying blame to anyone there in particular but what I would say is that there are a number of matters that are sought to be finalised by the end of year. This is one that if we are seeking to pursue our objection then we would - there would be a lot of consideration. On the other hand if we are seeking to spend time on trying to resolve it there would be time before the 13th, but we would suggest that there ought be a date set in February.
PN141
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Who from the ASU is responsible for the negotiations or discussions with the UFU?
PN142
MR NUCIFORA: It would be branch officials and I am thinking Mr Henderson. I would certainly be seeking to have organised discussions between our Victorian branch official, particularly Mr Neil Henderson and Mr Nick Kaletsis.
PN143
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, when - I mean there is no problem with him meeting with Mr - is it Mr or Ms Kaletsis, I am sorry?
PN144
MR NUCIFORA: Mr Kaletsis and it is Mr Henderson.
PN145
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry.
PN146
MR NUCIFORA: I do not think that there would be any problem, subject to Mr Henderson being available and there ought be a meeting before 30 November. I am just not in a position today, your Honour, to say that - that unlike the union objectors here today that we can confirm that we can settle the objection.
PN147
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. But look I am minded to make the directions in the terms sought with liberty to any parties who apply for an extension of time on reasonable notice to the other parties.
PN148
MR NUCIFORA: Yes, your Honour. In one sense having dates this year - before the end of year, at a busy time will focus the attention on this and not on other matters. And on another level if there not is a real concern on the job to - if there was we would have to address it, then - and if we were being obstructionist then having an earlier date may be counter-productive.
PN149
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But if you have got liberty to apply - - -
PN150
MR NUCIFORA: Yes.
PN151
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As I say, it should become evident after you have had some discussions, or after Mr Henderson has had some discussions, whether or not there is any real prospect of a successful resolution between the parties or whether there is going to be a hearing or an argument or an arbitration - - -
PN152
MR NUCIFORA: Yes.
PN153
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And if there is going to be a hearing you can then assess your position in relation to the times that are set and if you think that those are unreasonable or cannot be achieved for some particular reason then you can come back and make a case about that on application.
PN154
MR NUCIFORA: Yes, well, if you make a decision confirming the parties' directions before your Honour we would seek to - if need be seek to further it with an extension because our preferred time frame would have been the 30th - objectives to filing and contentions by 30 February 2004. And following the same time frame then for the applicant to file contentions in response and that would have been the two - the one month later and that would be March, 11 March 2004. That would have been our preferred position and it may be one that if we were not optimistic one that we would have to seek to come back before you to apply for. If your Honour pleases.
PN155
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did you want to say anything else, Mr Rozen?
PN156
MR ROZEN: Not unless I can assist your Honour in any way.
PN157
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am sure you could assist me, but - - -
PN158
MR ROZEN: That is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all week, your Honour.
PN159
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think that the concerns expressed by the ASU at this stage are more probably based more on perhaps an absence of full instructions from Mr Henderson about his availability and I propose then to make the directions in the terms set - sorry, in the terms sought by the UFUA but with the matter to be listed for further directions at 10 am, on 22 December - Monday, 10 am, 22 December and I will add to those directions that there be liberty to any party to apply on 24 hours' notice to any other party or to every - to all other parties, sorry:
PN160
1. Objectors to file and serve summaries of contentions, witness statements and documents to be relied on by 5 pm on 13 November 2003.
PN161
2. The applicant to file and serve summary of contentions, witness statements and documents to be relied on by 5 pm on 11 December 2003.
PN162
3. Objectors to file and serve any statements and documents in reply by 5 pm on 19 December 2003.
PN163
4. The matter be listed for further directions at 10 am, on 22 December 2003.
PN164
5. Liberty to any party to apply on 24 hours' notice to all other parties.
PN165
Now, in the event that there is some compromise or resolution of the issues reached between the parties then they should perhaps inform my associate so that we can understand why there is no contentions or witness statements being filed in the event that they are not filed. All right. Anything else?
PN166
MR ROZEN: No, your Honour.
PN167
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. The matter is adjourned.
ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, 22 DECEMBER 2003 [10.28am]
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