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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 5162
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN
C2002/4805
TRANSPORT WORKERS' UNION
OF AUSTRALIA
and
W.A. FLICK & CO PTY LTD
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the
Act of a dispute re work classifications and
conditions of employment
MELBOURNE
11.48 AM, WEDNESDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2003
Continued from 26.5.03 in Brisbane
(Not Transcribed)
PN1
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Learmonth.
PN2
MS LEARMONTH: Do you want me to put in an appearance, Commissioner?
PN3
THE COMMISSIONER: No, we don't have any changes I assume, do we?
PN4
MS LEARMONTH: I don't know whether there are changes on the other side. The only change is that Ms Peisley who is an employee of W.A. Flick & Co will be appearing with me today. She will be giving evidence and we will be calling her fairly shortly.
PN5
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN6
MS LEARMONTH: So unless the Commission requests an alternative approach, this morning I would intend on providing the Commission with a brief outline of the dispute including a fairly brief history of the dispute and I was intending on calling two witness, one being Ms Barbara Peisley who is an employee of the respondent. We are also going to call a Mr Peter Hillbrich who is an employee of Pink Professional Hygiene Services. Mr Hillbrich has indicated he is not prepared to appear before the Commission unless he is summonsed.
PN7
Now, I have prepared a summons, and depending on what you have got to say on this, Commissioner, that you might be able to sign and we might be able to serve it upon him which would mean that his evidence would be able to be given today.
PN8
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Do you have something to say about that, Ms Cirkovic?
PN9
MS CIRKOVIC: Sir, perhaps briefly. We correspondence from the union mid morning yesterday indicating that the union intended to call these two witnesses. There was a witness statement attaching to one and not the other, that being witness Hillbrich from Pink. It was not until kind of some time that afternoon that I was able to understand what the nature of that evidence was. When I did fully comprehend what it was I then by necessity responded by seeking to issue my own subpoena to meet that evidence.
PN10
We will be contesting the evidence, or the use of the evidence I should say, that the union intend to call and we have in fact subpoenaed a Mr Paul Willingham from Rentokil who is the Melbourne business manager. Now, we did so, sir, only on the assumption that Mr Hillbrich was going to be giving evidence today. Having said that, I haven't really said whether I object or not to the subpoena. I guess my point is that it is fairly late in the day.
PN11
We have known about the case for some time and it turns out that in fact now that I fully understand the submission that Ms Learmonth intends to make, that I ought really ought call Mr Willingham and proceed with my own subpoena. So on the basis that I am in that position I can't really object to the subpoena application of the union.
PN12
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN13
MS CIRKOVIC: I guess as an aside, it would have been preferable to understand that earlier in the piece, but there is not much I can do about that.
PN14
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks. Yes, Ms Learmonth.
PN15
MS LEARMONTH: Is it possible to seek a five minute adjournment then to have a summons signed and served upon Mr Hillbrich?
PN16
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The Commission will adjourn briefly.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.52am]
RESUMED [12.02pm]
PN17
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Learmonth.
PN18
MS LEARMONTH: I appreciate that adjournment, Commissioner. Just as I go through the summary of the history of the dispute it might just be worthwhile, again bearing in mind what the Commission's views are, to actually mark some of the submissions that have been filed with the Commission to date. Now, again depending on what my friend has to say about that, marking those submissions might assist in closing submissions.
PN19
This is an application by the Transport Workers' Union of Australia under section 99 of the Workplace Relations Act 1996. The dispute relates to the way in which the respondent employs our members and concerns their wages, conditions and classifications and what they are employed under. The respondent has national operations and provides a range of services through their individual businesses. This dispute concerns the employees who work within the collection of the sanitary bins and the disposal of such sanitary waste.
PN20
In particular, the relevant employees to this dispute are those that we will term washers. Their work requires them to empty the sanitary bins, to wash the bins and re-line the bines. The bins containing the sanitary waste are collected by sanitary drivers and delivered to the depot. The washers then empty the bins, clean the bins and leave the empty bins for the drivers to collect at a later point.
PN21
In particular, the dispute concerns the appropriate classification of the relevant employees and therefore the appropriate conditions of employment for these employees. The TWU submits that the employer has incorrectly classified these employees and we say that this in turn means that the employer has applied the incorrect working conditions to these employees, including their wages and relevant allowances.
PN22
This dispute has national implications as the respondent employs washers in all States and Territories where they conduct their business. The award relevant to this dispute is the Transport Workers Refuse Recycling and Waste Management Award 2001 and I do have a copy for the Commission and I think it would be worth handing that up and having that as an exhibit.
PN23
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN24
MS LEARMONTH: Can we have that marked as an exhibit, Commissioner?
PN25
PN26
MS LEARMONTH: Such award has been reviewed pursuant to item 51 of the WROLA Act and a properly simplified award was handed down on 21 December 2001. I should also say that T1 does have the current rates of pay for the 2003 safety net adjustment. On or about 24 February 2003 the TWU did provide to the Commission and served upon the employer a draft order which we say would resolve this dispute and again I can hand up a copy of that to the Commission.
PN27
MS LEARMONTH: Commissioner, as you can see in that draft order there is a number that the TWU is seeking that would resolve this dispute and if I can just read out from our draft order. Paragraph A:
PN28
An order that W.A Flick & Co Pty Ltd trading as Ladysan ...(reads)... as set out in clause 15.2.3 of the award.
PN29
And paragraph B:
PN30
Ladysan pay to each washroom employee in Australia employed under the award as at ...(reads)... failure to pay the allowance to washroom employees throughout Australia each week.
PN31
Before I move off that draft order, Commissioner, I might just add that W.A Flick & Co Pty Ltd at some stage this year was purchased by another company called ISS. Now, I am not certain of the exact name of the new employer, whether it is ISS Australia, ISS Group. I am not too sure what it is, but nonetheless the draft order would need to be varied to reflect the change in the employment - or the change of the employer I should say.
PN32
There are a number of grounds upon which we seek that this order be granted. Firstly, we would say it would resolve a dispute between the parties. Secondly, it would ensure that all relevant employees employed by the respondent are remunerated in the same way. Thirdly, it would ensure fairness and equity within the industry. Fourthly, the order would adequately compensate the relevant employees for the respondent's failure to remunerate such employees when compared to other companies within the industry.
PN33
Fifthly the order would provide the relevant employees with conditions which are already required under the award. Sixthly, the order would avoid industrial disputation between the parties. Seventhly, the order would avoid the time and expense if legal proceedings were initiated, and finally, the order is industrially fair and desirable in the public interest. Commissioner, as you know, the dispute has a fairly lengthy background. The washers who are the TWU members were paid the sanitary offsider allowance pursuant to a Ladysan Services Certified Agreement 1999 which is a Queensland State agreement that expired on 28 March 2001.
PN34
This was an agreement that applied only in the State of Queensland. In fact it only applied to the North Link Place Depot in Queensland. The company have ceased to pay the allowance since then. The respondent has subsequently negotiated a section 170LK agreement with the drivers only which is a national agreement and this EBA was certified on or around 8 April 2002. The company was roped into the award from the first pay period to commence on or after 8 May 2002. I can provide a copy of that order - or that award if that would assist the Commission. I am not sure what it adds though in relation to this dispute. Would you like a copy of that, Commissioner?
PN35
PN36
MS LEARMONTH: The Transport Workers' Union has filed an application in the Industrial Relations Commission under section 99 alleging an industrial dispute. Unfortunately I don't have a hard copy of that, Commissioner, and I did attempt to seek from your associate the date of when we filed that. I am going to take a stab that it was the start of last year.
PN37
THE COMMISSIONER: It was 24 September '02 it was signed by Mr Williams.
PN38
MS LEARMONTH: Certainly.
PN39
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN40
MS LEARMONTH: Thank you, Commissioner. There was a conciliation conference held before Senior Deputy President Harrison on 14 November 2002 in Brisbane and her Honour required the employer to file submissions subsequent to that which the employer did. Now, again subject to what the employer has to say, whether it is worth having that submission marked as an exhibit?
PN41
MS CIRKOVIC: Commissioner, I am happy for Ms Learmonth to proceed and tender the full history. It will save certainly some time by doing so.
PN42
MS LEARMONTH: That submission, Commissioner, should have been filed with the Commission and it is dated 28 November 2002. Unfortunately I only have two copies with me on the presumption that the employer has a copy and the Commission has a copy, but I am happy to give you another one, not that I will - I might make reference to it.
PN43
MS LEARMONTH: A further conciliation conference was held before the Commission as currently constituted on 26 May 2003. At the request of the Commission an inspection occurred on 24 June 2003 at the respondent's depot in Melbourne and the purpose of this inspection, from the TWUs understanding, was for the Commission to be able to view the work and the duties of the washers. Following this inspection the TWU was required to file written submissions detailing the history of the relevant award provisions and definitions within that award by 11 July 2003 and again a copy of that - - -
PN44
PN45
MS LEARMONTH: As you are aware, Commissioner, this matter was previously listed for 29 September 2003 and it was adjourned at the request of the employer and this matter has been listed for hearing today. So unless there is anything else, Commissioner, I intend on calling our first witness, Ms Barbara Peisley.
PN46
PN47
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Learmonth.
PN48
MS LEARMONTH: Thank you, Commissioner. Firstly I would just like to ask if Mr David Campbell is intending on giving evidence today?
PN49
MS CIRKOVIC: Yes, he is.
PN50
MS LEARMONTH: Could we ask that he actually leave the room whilst this evidence is being given?
PN51
MS CIRKOVIC: No problem.
PN52
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN53
MS LEARMONTH: Thank you. Ms Peisley, just for the record could you state your name and address?---It is Barbara Jane Peisley. I live at 1A, 33 Oxley Drive, New Farm, Queensland.
PN54
Thank you. And have you prepared a statement for this hearing?---Yes, I have.
PN55
Ms Peisley, is this the statement that you have prepared for the Commission?---Yes, it is.
PN56
And is it true and correct in every particular?---Yes, it is.
PN57
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN58
MS LEARMONTH: Ms Peisley, what I will do is go through your statement. I have a few questions in relation to your statement and then I have a few other questions. It shouldn't take too long. If I can just take you, Ms Peisley, to paragraph 5 of your statement and you talk about the drivers. Could you just tell the Commission where the drivers would collect the sanitary bins from?---They would drive into the depot - you mean as they actually go out to the companies to pick up?
PN59
That is right?---They go to different companies and pick up the sanitary bins, bring them back to our depot. They unload them and then we commence to take the lids off, take the bags and put them into the compacter.
PN60
Ms Peisley, what sort of places would the drivers collect the bins from?---From hospitals, from dental, from offices, schools, any particular business place they would pick bins up from.
PN61
Thank you. And as a washer would you ever assist the driver who is out collecting the bins?---I have on odd occasions been called as a jockey which they go with the driver and help to assist unloading the clean bins and also picking up the dirty bins from these premises.
PN62
And Ms Peisley, you talk about that you take the bag out and dump it into a compacter. Could you just tell the Commission exactly how you would take the bag out?---I would take the lid off the bin. We would then have to put our hand in to get the bag out which is then put into a large garbage bin which is then pushed it is full to the compacter and it has like an arm thing which it fits onto and then you press the button and it goes up and empties into the compacter.
PN63
Thank you. And who would actually empty the compacter?---The SITA people would come and pick up the compacter and every Friday it is taken from the depot and disposed of the contents and then brought back to us within an hour so we can proceed with our job.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN64
And Ms Peisley, at the end of the fifth paragraph you mention that you look into the bins to check for things such as sharps, clothes and other sorts of things?---We keep our eyes out because it is quite dangerous in the sense that even though there is special bins that are put into businesses or areas to put needles in, but the public still does throw needles into sanitary bins and for our own safety it is best to keep an out when you are grabbing the bags because sometimes the bags are only - like the bottom of the bag will be full but other times the contents will be right to the brim of when you take the lid off and sometimes even stuck to the top of the lid. So you do have to touch the contents, like if anything is stuck on the lid you have to get off, back into the bin and then pick the bag up to put it into the garbage bin to go to the compacter.
PN65
And Ms Peisley, if you came across sharps, clothes or other sorts of things what do you do?---We have been, on two that I know of, occasions that we were asked by a big department store to look through the bin and they were certain bins that came from a certain store and they suspected stealing and they asked us to look in for the contents to see if there was any items of clothing that belonged to the store, which there was, and that was taken out of the bins.
PN66
So if in the normal course of events you came across a bag that contained a sharp or a needle, what would you do?---Tread very carefully. Take the bag out very carefully and it is put in. The needles are not taken out of the bags once they are in the contaminated. It is still left in there but we just take it very carefully and put it into the bin that goes to the compacter.
[12.25pm]
PN67
Certainly, thank you. Ms Peisley, can I take you to paragraph 8. In paragraph 8 you describe at least for - well, I think that is what you are doing, is you are describing four different types of things?---Yes.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN68
Could you just again for the Commission go through each one of those and just explain to the Commission what the type of bin is, the size of the bin and the type of refuse that that bin might contain and where such a bin might be found out in the businesses?---Okay. A slimline bin is just a smaller bin that they put in businesses that may have a very small area beside a toilet and they cannot fit a larger bin into that area, so they will put a slimline. Greys are just the colour of a particular bin that came from a company which I worked for prior to the employment when it was bought out, so we are still using those bins, and then chocs are a chocolate coloured bin which goes mostly to businesses because they are a better class looking bin and the nappies are quite large and they have all babies and also adult nappies. They may go to hospitals, psyche wards, all that sort of thing. So they have the adult nappies as well as babies nappies.
PN69
Ms Peisley, in relation to the size of the bins, how large or small would a slimline be approximately?---A slimline would be - I am not too good on sizing but it is probably about that tall and it is only very narrow on the side so that it does fit in beside the toilet. Whereas the other sanitary bins are actually square, so they are the same size all the way round.
PN70
And is that the same then with the - - -?---The nappies are quite - like about that wide all round and they are like about that size.
PN71
Certainly, certainly. And when these bins are brought into the depot?---Yes.
PN72
Is there any difference with what you do in relation to the contents of the bin?---They are distributed into sections against a particular wall where the dirty products are brought in and the same, the colours go in different areas and the nappies are put in a separate area because they are larger and heavier for us to lift to put the contents into the bin. Sometimes they are extremely heavy and we need two of us to lift one to empty.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN73
Thank you, Ms Peisley. Ms Peisley, in paragraph 10 you mention chemicals. Can you just tell the Commission where those chemicals come from?---In the bins sometimes they have come from hospitals and so the contents from hospitals you have got - well, you are not too sure about the exact of the contents of, you know, the chemicals that is in it. Plus we have got the urine and blood and all those other sort of things that go into those particular bins.
PN74
Thank you. Ms Peisley, if I can just show you something. Have you seen that before, Ms Peisley?---Yes.
PN75
Okay. What I might do is if Ms Peisley - I don't know whether she wants the original. Ms Peisley, could you just tell the Commission what this is?---This is a label that will be on a sanitary bin stating what the contents should go into that particular bin.
PN76
Ms Peisley, could you just read out what the red writing says at the bottom of that sticker?---It is back and what I have got but:
PN77
Please place only sanitary napkins and tampons inside unit.
PN78
And then it has got the no sharps.
PN79
Thank you. Commissioner, can we just have this marked?
PN80
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN81
MS LEARMONTH: Ms Peisley, what you have just read out there, sanitary napkins and tampons, does that describe the type of waste that is contained within the bins that you would work with?---We have a lot of other things that will be placed in the bins besides what is meant to be in the bins, so like I said, blood and urine is some of the things. Sometimes you will get food contents. Often you get people have stolen bags and things and they are shoved in, like the contents of people's purses are thrown into these bins. Mobile phones. One time I even found a drill. Like I mean you will find unbelievable things thrown into these sanitary bins, yes.
PN82
So, Ms Peisley, despite what other people might thrown into the bins?---Yes.
PN83
The sticker clearly indicates what should be placed in the bin?---Yes.
PN84
And is this particular sticker the same on all the bins that you have just described to the Commission, being the slimlines, greys, chocs and large nappies?---No, in a sense because the company has been bought out and have changed the name several times we have different colour labels, plus we have like Ladysan, Flick and also Queensland Hygiene was on the grey bins with burgundy tops. So they have got different labels and there is also now new labels come in called ISS, but they do have sanitary written on the labels, on the different coloured bins.
PN85
Ms Peisley, would the nappy bin have this particular sticker placed on it?---Yes, they will have that but they won't have sanitary napkins. They will have nappies, yes.
PN86
Thank you. If I could just show the witness another document. Ms Peisley, I have just provided you with an information sheet which comes from the Queensland Government that talks about waste management. I appreciate that you haven't had an opportunity to read it and maybe with the Commissioner's assistance if we can go through that and then I might be able to ask some questions about the way in which the work that you undertake, how that might relate back to this sheet?---Okay.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN87
Under the heading of Managing Sanitary Hygiene Waste?---Yes.
PN88
There is in italics quite small text. Could you just read that for yourself?---Yes.
PN89
So the first paragraph of that, that starts of with "This guideline" and finishes at "areas of hospital"?---Yes.
PN90
Does the company you work for collect waste from these sorts of places?---Yes.
PN91
The second paragraph in italics there, have you read that?---Yes, I have.
PN92
And does the company you work for collect waste from these places?---Yes, and also in there it doesn't say prisons. We also cover prisons as well, both for women and the men's. As being with one of drivers, I had to go into the prisons to take out the bins from those places.
PN93
Certainly. Could I get you to - under the definition there is a paragraph there that with bold text, could I just get you to read that?---From which part?
PN94
Just underneath definitions, the first paragraph?---Yes -
PN95
Sanitary hygiene waste, for the purpose of this information sheet means disposal nappy and incontinence product waste and sanitary products including tampons and pads.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN96
And in your opinion is this a fairly accurate description of the waste of the company you work for, that they collect?---Yes. Well, we used to handle when we first started this here, you know, with the court and everything but now they are not doing clinical. The company comes and gets that. We don't handle the actual clinical ones. But in the bins we also do get - I will probably say it wrong, colostophy bags, is that right? They have those. We do find them occasions in bins and also dental. Dental, we do still handle dental contents that comes from those mobile dental places, you know, at schools and such.
PN97
Thank you. Can I take you down to the paragraph, it is titled Segregation?---Yes.
PN98
Does your company undertake any form of segregation?---Can you explain that question, I am sorry, segregation I am not too sure and in what - - -
PN99
Segregation, if I may, is separation?---Of you mean the actual staff or - - -
PN100
No?---Sorry.
PN101
It is about putting some products in some areas and some products in others?---I see what you mean, sorry. No, it all eventually goes into the composter, you know, it all goes into - composter - the big - it is nerves, into the actual - - -
PN102
Thank you, thank you. You are doing fine, Ms Peisley. The paragraph at the bottom of that sheet titled Treatment, does the company you work for undertake any form of treatment of the waste?---No, it is all taken away in - when the SITA man comes he takes the compacter itself away with all the contents.
PN103
Thank you. If I can just get you to turn over the page, Ms Peisley. The next paragraph or the next heading on that page is Storage?---Yes.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN104
Does the company you work for undertake any storage of sanitary waste?---The only thing I can say is the compacter is picked up on a Friday and emptied and brought back but then we continue to empty the contents from the trucks and over the weekend the compacter will be still there with contents of whatever is in the compacter. So if you class that as storaging over the weekend, or overnight, or through the week till at such times as the SITA man comes to pick the compacter up..
PN105
Thank you, Ms Peisley. The next heading down on that page is titled Transport?---Yes.
PN106
Does the company that you work for undertake transport of sanitary hygiene waste?---You mean like what the truck drivers do, pick up these bins?
PN107
Well, that might be a form of transport of the sanitary waste?---Well, that would be included, wouldn't it, as drivers to pick up the waste from these hospitals as such and brought back to our depot.
PN108
If in your opinion that is transport?---Mm.
PN109
And just the last heading there, Ms Peisley, Disposal, does the company you work for undertake disposal of sanitary waste?---Yes.
PN110
So how does that occur?---Well, they come and pick up the compacter which has the contents and they take it away to dispose of the contents of it.
PN111
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XN MS LEARMONTH
PN112
MS LEARMONTH: Ms Peisley, have you ever visited any of the other sites of Flick who would undertake this type of work?---No, only the company that I have worked for before it was bought out by Flick, or was bought out by Ladysan.
PN113
And where was that company based?---Queensland and that was based in Brisbane.
PN114
Okay, thank you. So you have never worked for - or have you ever worked for any other Flick's? Have you worked for Flick in any other sites?---No. No, I haven't.
PN115
And do you talk with any of the washers at any other Flick sites?---No.
PN116
Ms Peisley, are you ever involved in the collection of sanitary waste other than from time to time when you are jockey?---No, only as a jockey, that is all.
PN117
Thank you. I have no further questions of this witness.
PN118
PN119
MS CIRKOVIC: Thank you. I am sorry, I didn't catch it, is it Ms or Mrs Peisley?---I don't mind. I am not married so you can call me anything.
PN120
We will stick to Ms then. Ms Peisley, in terms of what you are employed to do?---Yes.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN121
It is not actually, is it, to divide or to separate articles in these lining bags that you have described? Your employment is not to actually go through them and divide them and separate them?---No, not unless we have been asked, like I mentioned the times that we have.
PN122
We will get to that one in a minute, but on the whole, in fact apart from those occasions when you are asked, it is not your job to divide and separate articles from the lining bags?---No, no.
PN123
You don't, for example, go through an work out what is recyclable and what is not?---No, no, no.
PN124
So your job is to empty the lining bins?---Yes.
PN125
And that is the extent of it?---Yes.
PN126
Now, you described the one occasion, I take it is the one or two occasions?---Yes.
PN127
And I am sorry I have just - one or two occasions where a department store was wanting you to look at some stolen clothing?---Yes, yes, stolen clothing. Yes.
PN128
That was a one off I take it that you are describing?---Yes, yes, yes.
PN129
The client rang and said there is some stolen clothing, we want to find it?---Yes, yes.
PN130
It is not your job on the whole?---No, no.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN131
To look for these sorts of items?---No.
PN132
You describe - have you still got your statement there?---Yes. What paragraph are you referring?
PN133
You have got it there?---Yes.
PN134
Paragraph 11, you say your take home is $929 a fortnight?---Yes.
PN135
You meant to say there a net figure or is that a gross figure?---That is with tax out. That is like in the bank.
PN136
Okay, so that is a net figure in the hand?---Mm.
PN137
And you refer to an allowance in that paragraph as well?---Yes.
PN138
A base rate and an allowance?---Yes.
PN139
Do you know what portion of that figure is for a base rate and what portion for an allowance?---Fifty something dollars which is allowance for the - - -
PN140
And what is the allowance for, do you know?---It is the handling of sanitary waste.
PN141
So as far as you are concerned you get an allowance of $500 odd for handling the sanitary refuse?---Yes, it is as couple of dollars more than 50. Yes.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN142
And that is pursuant to the award, yes?---Yes.
PN143
Do you by any chance have a copy of your wage slip there?---No, I don't. No, because they have just changed to that particular figure that I have just told you.
PN144
Sure. There has been a recent change to the award?---Yes, yes.
PN145
Correct, thank you. You referred in a couple of paragraphs and you referred in your evidence-in-chief to the sorts of materials that were sometimes - - -?---Contents of the - - -
PN146
Contents, yes. You referred to needles and things like that?---Yes.
PN147
And references to needles in the lining bags are really kind of the references you make, are references to your safety, aren't they?---Yes, yes.
PN148
And you kind of have to be careful to ensure that you are not pricked by a needle?---Yes, yes. I mean one person did.
PN149
Did they?---Yes, and it makes very cautious of - - -
PN150
Of course you want be cautious?---Yes.
PN151
In how long, Ms - - -?---Peisley.
PN152
In what period of time, over what period of time do you say one person was pricked?---Probably about 18 months ago a young girl was pricked and she was very distraught by it.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN153
Certainly. But this is a safety issue, isn't it?---Yes.
PN154
You don't actually go through the bags and look for - you don't open them up and then go through the material, as I said, to divide and sort things?---No, no.
PN155
You don't open them and say right, we will divide the needles on one part?---No, no.
PN156
And we will divide something else somewhere else and something else elsewhere?---No.
PN157
You are meant to lift them up - - -?---But when you take the lid off, if you have a bag which doesn't have a great amount in it you pick the bag up from the top like that, because sometimes the bags slide down into the bin. They don't - - -
PN158
Of course, so you have got to pick it up?---Yes, and so you have to put your hands into it.
PN159
Of course?---And then other times the bin will be full right to the brim and so when you take the bin off, or even if you lift the lid on the bin, it will be coming out through the top of the lid because it is too much contents in the bin.
PN160
Sure?---So again in that respect when you take the lid off you have to be very careful because you have go to imagine that everybody bin could have a needle in it because for your own safety, though not everybody probably thinks how I think.
PN161
Yes?---But that is how I think because I think, well, you know, it is your life.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN162
Overly cautious, yes?---And if you take that off and just sort of grab and you have only got rubber gloves on so - - -
PN163
And you have given some evidence about hospitals being one of the places from which the materials arrive?---Mm.
PN164
I take it that is only a small portion of - - -?---They do cover quite a, you know, quite a large area. Quite a few bins.
PN165
Well, I suggest that no more than 15 or 20 per cent of in fact material arrives from - - -?---Probably. Probably about that and also psychiatric, different - - -
PN166
Thank you. Yes, I include that in the figure?---Sorry.
PN167
Fifteen to 20 per cent, no more, I suggest to you?---Okay. Yes.
PN168
So ultimately, if I can just understand your evidence, you are not dividing or separating articles?---No, definitely not.
PN169
And you are not employed to look into the bins and search for things?---No, only if - - -
PN170
And only as a caution you might when you are picking up something?---Yes.
PN171
Having a look at the top of it to see that there is nothing?---Yes.
PN172
But you would pick it up and you would move it from - pick up the lining and move it from one place to the next?---Yes, yes.
**** BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN173
Thank you. Nothing further, thank you.
PN174
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Ms Learmonth.
PN175
MS LEARMONTH: I have no questions, Commissioner.
PN176
PN177
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Learmonth.
PN178
MS LEARMONTH: Commissioner, I am ready to call Mr Peter Hillbrich. It is a question of time as to whether you want me to start.
PN179
THE COMMISSIONER: He is here now?
PN180
MS LEARMONTH: He is here, yes.
PN181
THE COMMISSIONER: Would you like a break at this stage?
PN182
MS LEARMONTH: I am at the - up to the parties really. I can start his examination-in-chief. I am not too sure how long my friend will take with him.
PN183
MS CIRKOVIC: I don't even know what he is going to say, but could I perhaps ask at this stage, would it be possible for us to give some consideration as to how we are going to proceed further today because my subpoenaed witness has not arrived and I understand that the Commission may have received a letter from his legal counsel, because as I was leaving from the Commission the legal counsel rang my office to say that the Commission would be receiving a letter and I am just a bit - - -
PN184
THE COMMISSIONER: Not that I am aware of. I flew in from Albury/Wodonga this morning. I can check with my office when we have a break.
PN185
MS CIRKOVIC: I just think it might assist in kind of - and maybe having some consideration as to how we are going to proceed from here given that the evidence is not going to then conclude, if as the legal counsel suggested to me over the phone, the subpoenaed witness was actually in Sydney. He apparently received the subpoena on his way to the airport or something.
PN186
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Ms Learmonth, how long in examination-in-chief do you anticipate being?
PN187
MS LEARMONTH: Half an hour, 40 minutes.
PN188
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Well, perhaps we might see if we can deal with the examination-in-chief and then have a break at that stage and we can try to ascertain where people are or how we might proceed post that point.
PN189
MS LEARMONTH: Certainly, certainly.
PN190
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN191
MS LEARMONTH: Peter Hillbrich.
PN192
MR IRONMONGER: If the Commission pleases, I would like to seek leave to intervene in this matter, I am from VECCI. Mr Hillbrich is a member of our organisation.
PN193
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. What is the basis of your intervention, Mr Ironmonger?
PN194
MR IRONMONGER: Mr Hillbrich has been subpoenaed here to give evidence in a case that we are not fully aware about and I just want to sort of protect his interests, if the Commission pleases. I won't be here pursuing intervening unless I have to and only for the duration of Mr Hillbrich's evidence.
PN195
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Learmonth.
PN196
MS LEARMONTH: I have no concerns with that, Commissioner.
PN197
MS CIRKOVIC: Absolutely none.
PN198
PN199
MS LEARMONTH: Mr Hillbrich, just for the record could you state your name and address, please?---Peter Lesley Hillbrich of 9 Fairmont Court, Narre Warren North.
PN200
Thank you. Now, Mr Hillbrich, who are you employed by?---Pink Healthcare Services.
PN201
And what is your role with Pink Healthcare Services?---Business Manager Victoria.
PN202
And just in a fairly general sense, Mr Hillbrich, what does that role entail?---I manage the administration and the operation and sales of the Pink Healthcare business in Victoria.
PN203
Thank you. And what is the business of Pink Healthcare Services?---The business is essentially the collection of sanitary receptacles in ladies toilets and the servicing of air fresheners, sanitisers and other items that you might find typically in a commercial washroom, commercial or public washroom.
PN204
And in relation to the collection of the sanitary receptacles who would undertake that work?---We typically have ladies working in our trucks servicing the sanitary receptacles.
PN205
And where do these ladies - do they take the sanitary receptacles somewhere?---They do. They obviously locate them in ladies washrooms throughout the metropolitan and country area and when they are collected they are returned to our depot.
PN206
And what happens at the depot, Mr Hillbrich?---At the depot the truck would come through the entrance. The drivers would unload the bins and from there they would be receipted by our bin washers, stacked and then proceed to go through a washing process. Emptied and through a washing process.
[12.56pm]
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XN MS LEARMONTH
PN207
Does Pink Healthcare Services only collect sanitary receptacles?---No, we do collect first aid and we do collect sharps waste.
PN208
And are the first aid receptacles treated differently to the sanitary receptacles?---Yes, they are. They are put into a bin and collected by a separate contractor.
PN209
And in relation to the collection of sharps are they then treated differently to sanitary receptacles?---Yes, they are treated very different to the sanitary receptacles. They are handled by approved operators and the waste is taken direct to a collection depot.
PN210
Would the washers ever assist the drivers in the collection of the sanitary receptacles?---Not in my time they haven't, no.
PN211
And how long has your time been?---Fifteen months.
PN212
Okay. And would the drivers ever assist the washers in their task?---Not never but it is certainly not a part of their role.
PN213
Okay. Could you just explain to the Commission, you did talk about what happens with the sanitary receptacles once they are brought into the depot, could you just explain to the Commission in sort of some detailed terms about what it is that a washer will do with a sanitary receptacle?---Sure, okay. Once the receptacle is received in the depot the bin washers would either stack them and/or alternatively take them to an automatic bin washer. At that point they are emptied into a 1.5 cubic metre garbage and so the waste goes up a small conveyor into the bin and the bin is then placed into a conveyor belt which takes it into the washing machine. Now, we do also hand wash a number of bins. We hand wash and place either by hand or into a smaller bin washing piece of equipment white bins, only because of the fact that they will mark in the automatic bin washer. So there is a manual washing process and there is an
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XN MS LEARMONTH
automatic washing process. If we assume the role of the automatic washing process the bin will go through the machine, it will be washed, it will be dosed with a chemical which remains with the bin for its next cycle and the lid comes through at a similar time. It is placed on the bin and then it is stacked to the side for drying.
PN214
All right, thank you, Mr Hillbrich. Is it - sorry, I withdraw that. What industrial instrument are the washers paid under?---We pay under the TWU Award for refuse and waste management.
PN215
Commissioner, I appreciate your associate is not here so if I may just hand to you the witness exhibit T1?
PN216
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN217
MS LEARMONTH: Mr Hillbrich, is that the award that you are referring to?---Yes. I thought it was 1985 actually, award, was it not, the one that we last had? I can't recall.
PN218
It seems maybe your employer representative needs to give you an updated copy, Mr Hillbrich?---Let me just have a flick through.
PN219
I don't know whether it would assist you, Mr Hillbrich, to have a look at the wages to see whether that there then is the award that you are currently paying under. I don't know whether you would be able to answer that question or not?---I would suggest that it has had the $17 included in this version, has it?
PN220
That is correct?---That come through in July.
PN221
That is correct?---The structure appears to be the same.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XN MS LEARMONTH
PN222
Okay. So just for the record, Mr Hillbrich, what clause are you currently looking at?---I am looking at the base wage rates.
PN223
And is that clause 15.2.1?---Correct.
PN224
Okay, thank you. And so, Mr Hillbrich, in clause 15.2.1 could you just indicate which grade the washers are paid under by Pink?---Okay. We pay all of our employees up to 14 ton range.
PN225
So grade 3?---Grade 3.
PN226
And when you say all employees are you including washers and - - -?---I am including washers.
PN227
Okay, thank you. And Mr Hillbrich, is there other payments that you make to your employees?---We also pay the $56 industry allowance.
PN228
And is there any other payment that you make to your employees under this award?---Yes, we have recently negotiated an over award payment in the form of an enterprise bargaining agreement.
PN229
Mr Hillbrich, could I just take you to clause 15.2.3?---Yes.
PN230
Does Pink Healthcare Services pay that allowance to anybody?---I have to do the numbers but I certainly got into a dispute - sorry, it wasn't a dispute. We had a few people who were resisting the collection of money, small amounts of money some months ago and we went through and we recalculated and found that it was easier to include any allowances for the handling of money to be taken up in the normal rate of pay. Now, I know that doesn't answer you questions.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XN MS LEARMONTH
PN231
No, no, in fact I have perhaps directed you to the wrong clause. I was just trying to direct you to clause 15.2.3?---Correct. I believe we do.
PN232
You believe you - - -?---I believe we do, only because I haven't done the calculation up to the amount of money that we paid.
PN233
Okay?---But if we took the pre July figure, if I recall it was $560 that we were paying as the standard rate, or $14.74 per hour. So if we calculate that out at 14.75 per hour by 38 that will give you the total amount that we were paying our service advisers.
PN234
And by service advisers you are referring to all employees? When you use the term service advisers, because I don't think you have talked about service advisers?---We do. We don't distinguish between the two directly. We believe that our bin washers are a very valuable part of our business and we simply didn't get into distinguishing the two.
PN235
Thank you, Mr Hillbrich. Mr Hillbrich, just one final question, what is the relationship between Pink and Flick?---We are competitors in the marketplace. We would be within the top three.
PN236
Okay. Thank you, I have no further questions.
PN237
PN238
MS CIRKOVIC: Thank you, sir. Mr Hillbrich, do you have a copy of this enterprise agreement that you have been referring to?---No, I don't.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN239
Could you get a copy for us perhaps over the lunch interval?
PN240
MR IRONMONGER: If I can assist the Commission, we had a dispute yesterday. We signed off last night and the agreement will be another two or three weeks away from being finalised before it is submitted to the Commission so there isn't a signed copy at this point in time.
PN241
THE COMMISSIONER: But there is an agreement approved by a valid majority of the employees, is there?
PN242
MR IRONMONGER: Yes, as of yesterday.
PN243
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is possible I assume then to get a copy of that document.
PN244
MR IRONMONGER: It won't be signed though, Commissioner.
PN245
THE COMMISSIONER: No.
PN246
MS CIRKOVIC: It is the agreement that you have been referring to upon which you have based your evidence, I take it?---Absolutely.
PN247
You gave evidence about an agreement and it is - - -?---That is exactly right. The agreement that we come to agreement late yesterday afternoon.
PN248
Could we get a copy of that, please, over the lunch break?---Yes, I guess. I don't have a major objection to that.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN249
Thank you. There is just one question I would like to ask before perhaps - well, I am in your hands, sir, I am sorry, as to when the lunch break is but I will need to see the agreement perhaps before I continue further with the cross-examination?---I guess the only objection that I would have there is if there were a competitive nature between the two companies, that would be my only concern.
PN250
Well, it is for your advisers here but I would suggest to you that it is going to be a public document in the not too distant future?---Okay. I don't have an objection then. Okay. Well, let me say I will provide it to you in-confidence.
PN251
Thank you. Mr Hillbrich, the bins that you referred to in your evidence-in-chief, are they bins that are lined with anything or are they unlined bins?---We don't line our bins, no.
PN252
So they don't have any sort of lining?---No, they don't.
PN253
And the refuse goes straight into those bins, does it?---Correct.
PN254
Thank you, I have nothing further for the moment.
PN255
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The Commission will adjourn until 2.15. During that period if you could assist Mr Hillbrich by you or Mr Ironmonger providing a copy of that agreement to Ms Cirkovic for her to examine prior to your cross-examination being concluded?---Okay. I will endeavour to do that.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN256
The Commission stands adjourned until 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.07pm]
RESUMED [2.22pm]
PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH:
PN257
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Cirkovic.
PN258
MS CIRKOVIC: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN259
Mr Hillbrich, thank you for providing me with a copy of the document over lunch. I believe you have a copy in the box a document with a cover sheet on pink letterhead to Bob Ironmonger with an attachment agreement. That is the agreement about which you gave evidence earlier in the day?---That is the agreement.
PN260
And as I understood it, it is an agreement in relation to which you have obtained a valid majority of your employees?---Correct.
PN261
If you would turn to - does the Commission have a copy of this agreement as well?
PN262
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN263
MS CIRKOVIC: Can you turn to the attached appendix 1 of the document and I notice it is blank?---It is blank.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN264
Where are the wage rates?---The wage rates haven't been removed.
PN265
I am sorry, they?---They certainly haven't been removed for the purpose of presenting today.
PN266
Yes?---Quite simply, we reached agreement late yesterday - sorry, mid yesterday afternoon and I was in here at the Commission prepared for a Commission hearing. The wage rates were not attached to the enterprise bargaining agreement at the time. We had presented to the union in writing the company offer and it was the company offer in that e-mail form that was presented to the employees both by the union and at one stage by the company. So this is at this point in time a draft. It is not signed off and - - -
PN267
So you don't have a valid majority yet?---We certainly do have a valid majority. Our employees had taken action yesterday and we resolved that yesterday on a majority vote.
PN268
Perhaps we are at cross purposes, not unreasonably on what is meant by a valid majority. Can I perhaps put it this way, is this an agreement that you negotiated with the union?---Absolutely.
PN269
Is that the Transport Workers's Union?---Yes.
PN270
Was Ms Learmonth involved in the negotiations?---In the earlier stages.
PN271
What about yesterday?---Yesterday Mike McNess was involved and took the vote.
PN272
And the wage rates if I wanted to view those, where would I find them?---Well, at the moment they are not a written document.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN273
Well, who could perhaps give evidence then on what the wage rates - - -?---I can advise what the basic form of the agreement is. We are meeting next week to document and sign off on the agreement but I can certainly advise you now what the content of that wage offer was.
PN274
So your evidence earlier today about rates of pay?---Yes.
PN275
Operating at Pink?---Yes.
PN276
Were not related to this agreement then? You said earlier in your evidence as I understood it that you had an EBA in place, you were paying pursuant to the EBA?---No, what we said was that we had only come to agreement yesterday and that the enterprise bargaining agreement has not been signed off.
PN277
Right. Well, perhaps if I could take you then to two aspects of your evidence. Let us start with the rates of pay that are currently being paid?---Okay, currently in place.
PN278
So that is leaving aside this document?---Yes.
PN279
What is Pink currently using as the base for its rates of pay?---We are currently paying $577.
PN280
What instrument?---The TWU Award.
PN281
So that is exhibit 1 I believe. Do you have the award in front of you?---It has got a plus one in the top corner.
PN282
Plus one, okay. And this is the only instrument you are using currently, is it?---Correct.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN283
The EBA which you negotiated, can you turn to appendix 1 for me?---Correct, yes.
PN284
What rates of pay have you negotiated with the union?---We have negotiated - - -
PN285
And perhaps if we can refer them to a classification?---Firstly, we haven't discriminated in that area and we have agreed, if you refer to the enterprise bargaining agreement to clause 2.2, that the agreement -
PN286
Covered by this agreement includes and is not limited to the collection of sanitary and incontinence products, related waste and servicing of commercial and public washroom areas and the cleaning of the bins.
PN287
We do not discriminate between our bin cleaners and our service personnel.
PN288
What are service personnel?---Our drivers, if you wish to classify them as such.
PN289
So drivers and pursuant to this EBA that you have negotiated?--Yes.
PN290
And that you hope to have ratified, the drivers and the service - the drivers who you are saying are the service personnel and the bin cleaners are not discriminated or are treated in the same way, is that the point?---Essentially we do.
PN291
There is no distinction?---We are not distinguishing them, differentiating between the two under this agreement.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN292
So no distinction between a driver and a bin cleaner, that is first point?---Not in terms of the payment and the setting out of the enterprise bargaining agreement. What we do philosophically is we say that the bin cleaners are a very important part of our business and we will bring them into this agreement with our drivers.
PN293
Sure, all right. Now, you are aware, aren't you, that the award does distinguish between - - -?---Yes, I am.
PN294
- - - bin cleaners and drivers?---Yes, yes.
PN295
So that is the first point of difference between your operation to be, or the method of operating in the award?---Correct, correct. However having said that, we have not differentiated in the rate of pay between the two classifications.
PN296
Yes, you have said that. Now, if I could take you to the rates then?---Yes.
PN297
What can you tell me about the rates of pay?---Okay. We started negotiations prior to the $17 increase in July. Our final settlement was including the $17 which brings us to essentially the current award wage.
PN298
So what does that mean in terms of either a gross weekly wage?---The gross is $577.
PN299
$577 gross a week?---Correct, yes.
PN300
For a 38 or 40 hour week?---For a 38 hour week.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN301
So 577 gross per week?---Now, I don't deal with these weekly wages on a weekly basis but that is my approximate calculation. I would almost be assured that that is the figure.
PN302
And is that the total weekly wage?---Correct. At this point, at this stage. Effective from the date that we sign off there will be an additional 2 per cent.
PN303
Yes?---There will be approximately an additional 2 per cent in allowances which equates to $500.
PN304
Five hundred dollars, over what period?---Over a 12 month period paid weekly.
PN305
So what is that weekly?---About nine dollars something per week.
PN306
So that is about nine dollars?---And that will be paid weekly.
PN307
I am sorry, is there anything else?---Yes, there is. There is an additional $300 one off payment.
PN308
What is that for?---It was essentially a back payment. A sweetheart deal just to get it over the line.
PN309
So the gross per week wage of $577 is a base wage?---At the moment it is.
PN310
At the moment. And you have rolled up a number of things I take it, comprised of 2 per cent, or $10 - $9.60 or so a week, you have rolled up - - -?---Well, there is going to be an additional 2 per cent on the $577.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN311
And what is that for?---Well, it was a part of the employees negotiation, equivalent to a CPI if you wish.
PN312
Bear with for a moment. I won't be a moment, sir?---Sure.
PN313
So just confirm with me once more, 577 gross per week, there will be an extra 4 per cent on top of that?---Correct.
PN314
And then there is an extra $300 one off payment?---Correct.
PN315
A $300 one off payment per year?---No, no, once off as a once off payment at this particular point of time.
PN316
To get the majority through?---Correct.
PN317
THE COMMISSIONER: That doesn't help me. I am more confused now. I thought your evidence was that the new rate would be 577 per week, plus 2 per cent when you sign off on the agreement and then plus approximately 2 per cent on an allowance?---In the form of allowances. In other words, it is the way that we have structured the increase. In negotiating the wages we had to look at the national case and we have some smaller branches and we have structured the $500 in the form of a big city allowance which would affect Melbourne and Sydney and then there is also what we have called an attendance allowance.
PN318
MS CIRKOVIC: Where does this appear in the agreement?---Well, it will appear when the agreement is finalised, when it is signed off on Wednesday.
PN319
So the final agreement hasn't been drafted?---Not with the wage rates attached, no. I apologise, but I telephoned through and I asked for somebody to hop into my laptop and fax through the agreement so that person that did that is not a party to any of the undertakings.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN320
Sure?---Our wage offer that we put to the union was an e-mail that went in as a separate e-mail. So I apologise if I haven't had that wage offer faxed through.
PN321
Could we get that e-mail? Why can't we get that e-mail?---Absolutely. I can't that off it - sorry, I can get that e-mailed or faxed through immediately.
PN322
I would like to see it?---But quite seriously, I am saying what I am saying, what won't appear in the e-mail is the $300 because that effectively has not been put down in writing to explain the $300 what - - -
[2.37pm]
PN323
THE COMMISSIONER: No, I accept what you say, Hillbrich and I understand the circumstances. I think it is just simply a matter of producing what there is in writing and that is it. You have produced, as you say, what you requested the person, accepting that they are not experts in exactly what has been going on. They sent you that document. There is still another page or pages relating to the wage rates. On the undertaking you get that for us that is fine. I don't have any problem with that?---Will do.
PN324
MS CIRKOVIC: Thank you. We will get that then, the undertaking?---Yes.
PN325
Thank you. We can move on from there, if we can get that e-mail or whatever form of written material it takes?---Sure.
PN326
You described two forms of bin cleaning and one was I think manual?---An automated process and one a manual process.
PN327
One was an automated and one was manual?---Sure.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN328
What is involved in the manual process?---It requires the manual unloading of the bin into a dumpster bin.
PN329
How do you do that?---You pick the bin up and you rotate it over. Rotate it over at chest height essentially.
PN330
You actually tip it over and the bin has no lining in it?---The bin has no liner.
PN331
And what do you do with it then?---We then take the bin and we place it into a much smaller washing machine and the bins are rotated upside down. They are put into the washing machine. That particular bin takes eight - sorry, that particular washer takes eight bins and while they are washing in that machine, very much like a dishwasher, the lids are being manually washed.
PN332
And when you have tipped over the bin at the start of the process what would happen to the bits and pieces that will no doubt collect around the bin given that there is no liner?---If anything sticks to the wall of the bin then that would be removed with a tong, barbecue tong.
PN333
Employees are provided with tongs, are they?---Correct.
PN334
Do they have gloves as well?---Yes.
PN335
And is this the method of operation across the country?---Yes, it is. That is more consistently the operation throughout the country.
PN336
Do the other States have the same automated - - -?---No, they don't. As I expressed earlier, Victoria is the only one with the automated machine.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH XXN MS CIRKOVIC
PN337
So the other States would be tipping over and then emptying bits and pieces that got stuck?---Correct. Correct.
PN338
Just finally, who negotiated the agreement on your behalf?---I did in conjunction with Bob Ironmonger.
PN339
Thank you, nothing further.
PN340
PN341
MS LEARMONTH: Mr Hillbrich, at the request of confusing everybody again, if I can just take you to exhibit T1, which should be the award which I think you said you have a copy of that in front of you, and you have given that in relation to the EBA rates that upon signing the agreement the employees were paid a base of 577, is that correct?---Correct.
PN342
And to date is that a rate that is being paid currently?---That is currently being paid.
PN343
And is that rate made up from the award rates of pay, approximately?---Yes, it is.
PN344
In your earlier evidence-in-chief you indicated that all of your drivers and washers were being paid a grade 3?---Correct.
PN345
Of which is the - - -?---505.20.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH RXN MS LEARMONTH
PN346
505.20. And I think you also indicated that all employees were also being paid the industry allowance?---Correct.
PN347
Which is found at clause - - -?---It is actually $56.30 I think. Clause 29.1.
PN348
At clause 29.1 it is currently 58.30?---$58.30.
PN349
So if we do the sums there and we add 505.20 and 58.30, would you agree, and I am sorry you don't have a calculator which is how I had to work this out, that we come up with a rate of 563.50?---Correct.
PN350
And we still have a gap then of approximately $17 odd between - sorry?---Thirteen dollars.
PN351
Of about $13?---Correct.
PN352
And I took you to clause - in your evidence-in-chief I took you to clause 15.2.3 of the award with a sanitary driver offsider allowance of 13.10 there. Would that be the other allowance that is paid to employees?---What we endeavoured to do was to set out and at least meet the award in January with regard to the drivers. What we consciously said was that our bin washer should be paid equal to and there has even been times, to be honest, where if the market required we may need to pay more, I don't know. The bin washing, it is an essential role in the part of the business. So what we said at the time was that we will pay everybody equal.
PN353
Okay. So what your - so essentially you are saying - or are you saying that you were paying your drivers 13.10?---Correct.
PN354
And you decided to bring all employees up to the same rates of pay?---To the same level, correct.
**** PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH RXN MS LEARMONTH
PN355
Right, okay. I have no further questions, Commissioner.
PN356
PN357
MR IRONMONGER: Commissioner, might I be excused as part of my intervention is no longer of any relevance?
PN358
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Ironmonger. Yes, Ms Learmonth, does that conclude your evidence?
PN359
MS LEARMONTH: That concludes my evidence, Commissioner.
PN360
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN361
MR IRONMONGER: Commissioner, I will get that stuff e-mailed to your chambers and the other parties today.
PN362
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Ironmonger.
PN363
MR IRONMONGER: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN364
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Cirkovic.
PN365
MS CIRKOVIC: Thank you. Perhaps if I proceed with the witness that I do have here, Mr Campbell, and then we will deal with the subpoenaed witness at the conclusion of his evidences. Would that be appropriate?
PN366
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN367
MS CIRKOVIC: Thank you. David Campbell.
PN368
THE COMMISSIONER: Just while we are doing that, is the agreement to be tendered, the draft proposed agreement?
PN369
PN370
MS CIRKOVIC: Thank you, Mr Campbell. Could you just state your full name and address for the record, please?---David Christopher, 11 Banksia Grove, Tullamarine.
PN371
Thank you. And your current occupation?---I am the National Operations Manager for ISS Washroom Services which is a division of the ISS Group, W.A Flick and Co in Australia.
PN372
And what does that role entail?---Ultimately I am responsible for all operational matters within the Australian operation of the Washroom Services Group.
PN373
And what sorts of employees come within your direct care and control?---All of the operational planning staff, from the operations managers in the branches to the scheduling staff, to all of the service technicians, the washers, all of the direct operational service staff.
PN374
What about the drivers?---Certainly. Well, we classify them as service. We like to call them service technicians. We don't like the term driver. It demeans the position we think.
PN375
Sure. How long have you been in that role?---I have been with the company for two and a half years now. I have been in this role for just about two years very shortly.
PN376
What were you doing before that?---Prior to joining W.A. Flick I ran my own business for five and a half years.
PN377
And what sort of business?---A similar business. It was a textile rental business, mat rental and servicing business.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XN MS CIRKOVIC
PN378
Employing people in that business?---Yes, yes.
PN379
Now, you are aware of the nature of the dispute currently between you and the union?---Certainly, yes.
PN380
You were present when the Commission convened an inspection of your premises in Melbourne earlier this year?---Correct. I was there, yes.
PN381
And if I could following from that, ask whether you are familiar with the general terms of the award in question, the Transport Workers - - -?---Yes, I am more familiar than I was a period of time ago. Yes, I am fairly familiar with the award and the job roles and the classifications that we are discussing, yes.
PN382
Could the witness be shown exhibit 1, please. You have a copy of the award there in front of you?---Correct, yes.
PN383
And if you could turn, please, to clauses - bear with me, my clauses have disappeared. Here we are. Clause 4.12, 13 and 14 of that award?---Yes.
PN384
Take a moment?---Yes, I have got them. Yes.
PN385
Are you familiar with those clauses?---I am very familiar with these clauses, yes.
PN386
And have you formed a view as to what classification the washroom attendants fall?---Yes, we are very firmly of the view that the washing staff fall under the 4.13, the domestic offsider.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XN MS CIRKOVIC
PN387
And is that the clause under which you pay those particular employees?---It is currently, yes. It is currently, yes.
PN388
Now, is that the way you pay the employees around the country?---No. Well, the washing staff we are talking about now specifically?
PN389
Yes, only the washing staff?---Yes, all of the washing staff nationally are all paid under this award in line with clause 4.13, domestic offsider.
PN390
Thank you. Now, if I could take you to the role of the washing staff?---Yes.
PN391
Again bearing in mind the Commission's view of the premises in Melbourne?---The premises at Oakleigh, yes.
PN392
Yes, and had an inspection. The bins that were delivered to the washing staff are lined, are they not?---Correct. All the bins are lined with a - it is actually a perfumed. It is very similar to a garbage liner, yes.
PN393
And is that around the country?---Yes, everywhere.
PN394
And why is that done that way?---I am not involved with the initial decision to go with that system but certainly the time that I have been there we used the liner rather than collecting the refuse in the bins because that is a much cleaner and efficient way to dispose of it after collection.
PN395
Do you instruct any of the employees to sort?---No, nothing is sorted.
PN396
Go through the refuse to actually perhaps put certain things aside?---No, nothing is sorted at all. All the bins that are returned, whether they be sanitary or nappy bins, have the lid removed and the liners removed and thrown straight out. That is it.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XN MS CIRKOVIC
PN397
And in terms of removing the liners, do you ever instruct them to divide or sort what is in the liners?---No. No, we want them to handle them as little as possible. Yes, just remove the liner from the bin and throw it straight out.
PN398
And are you aware of occasions where needles have penetrated through the liner?---Yes, certainly. Needlestick injury has become an issue in our industry, like a lot of others, and we instruct the staff to be careful when they are removing the lids and before they grab a bag to watch out for protruding objects, needles. We also instruct them not to pick up too many bags at once so that they don't risk that the bag actually touching their body just in case there is a protruding needles. So yes, it is a risk that we have identified and we are very cautious of it.
PN399
Do you instruct staff to go through the liners and pick through for needles?---Under no circumstances, no.
PN400
I am sorry?---Under no circumstances. Not allowed to do it.
PN401
And is the washing part of the bin, is that an automated process or do you hand wash?---No, depending on the depot. Most of the depots have automated washing machines of different varieties.
PN402
What percentage of depots across the board would have automatic washing, a ballpark?---Ballpark, 75 per cent.
PN403
Over 75 per cent?---About 75 per cent of them, yes.
PN404
What percentage of work performed would be work involving a hospital or a psychiatric institution, do you know?---Not off hand. Given time I could source the information.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XN MS CIRKOVIC
PN405
Again approximately?---I would estimate less than 15 per cent of the total work.
PN406
Thank you, I have nothing further.
PN407
PN408
MS LEARMONTH: Mr Campbell, have you ever worked as a washer?---Not in full time employment, no.
PN409
Have you ever worked as a washer with Flick?---No, not on a full time basis, no, not at all.
PN410
Okay. We have had evidence today talking about the different types of bins. Are you familiar with the different types of bins?---In what regard, do you means the difference between a sanitary waste disposal and a nappy bin?
PN411
We have had evidence in from Ms Peisley and it is in her statement in relation to what is termed slimlines, greys, chocs and nappy bins. Are they familiar terms?---Yes. Yes, I am familiar with all of those. Yes.
PN412
Okay. And are there different sizes with those bins?---That is the difference. The difference between a slimline and say a normal bin is that it has got a 23 litre capacity as against a normal bin has got a 30. The difference between a choc top and a grey is the colour.
PN413
All right. And is the waste collected in those bins all the same?---In a slimline and sanitary bin, yes, certainly. The only difference is in a nappy bin.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XXN MS LEARMONTH
PN414
Certainly. And the waste that is collected, is that treated differently?---No.
PN415
No, okay. Can I show the witness exhibit T8, please?---Thank you.
PN416
Mr Campbell, have you seen that before?---I have, yes.
PN417
And where have you seen that?---It is what we used to place on our bins.
PN418
Okay. And is it on all the bins that are expected to contain sanitary products?---No, no. This used to be on the bins but we have been replacing it throughout this year. Yes.
PN419
Evidence has been given that you have a number of stickers and this is one of them?---Correct. We are going - mainly through the change of branding of the company, yes.
PN420
Sure. And what is the purpose in relation to this particular stickers, what is the purpose of the sticker?---To try and identify for the customers what the use of the bin is for.
PN421
Certainly, thank you. All right. Mr Campbell, you have talked about the different employees that you are responsible for?---Yes.
PN422
Could you just explain in your own words what is the role of the drivers with Flick?---To service the customer base. Their role is to - at the end of the day what they basically throughout the day is they come in the morning and they will load their vehicle with the number of units required to service their customers for the day, their allocated customers. Throughout the day they make their way round their customer round, entering the premises and exchanging their used units for the clean units and bring them back at the end of the day or the next morning, whichever is the more convenient.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XXN MS LEARMONTH
PN423
So they are effectively collecting used sanitary bins or used nappy bins and replacing them with clean ones?---Exchanging, yes.
PN424
Exchanging?---Yes.
PN425
Right. And you have talked about the depot and what is the role of the depot?---The staff in the depot, their role is to empty, wash, reline, put the lids back on and stack the bins up ready for use again the next day when the drivers come back.
PN426
And so the staff at the depot, are they what we have been talking about and we have been calling them washers? Would you agree that staff in the depot and the washers are pretty much the same thing?---Yes, well call them - well, yes, washers, wash base staff. I think in the official position description that I wrote, for want of a better term we call them wash base staff.
PN427
Right?---Yes.
PN428
And are the washers ever required to collect bins?---No, not whilst they are working as washers. No.
PN429
Thank you. And at the depot is the sanitary waste or the nappy waste, is that treated by Flick in any way?---No, no. It is all just thrown straight into a waste receptacle.
PN430
Okay. And so at the depot is the sanitary waste or the nappy waste, is it handled?---No, no. It is just the liners are removed from the bin and thrown straight into the waste receptacle which will be a large bin of some sort.
PN431
So it disposes of the waste at the depot?---Yes, it is just thrown straight out. Yes.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XXN MS LEARMONTH
PN432
Right, thank you. And again just confirm with the Commission that the washers actually work with a washing machine in most of the depots?---In most of the depots there is a washing machine present, yes.
PN433
Did the company ever work with clinical waste?---It did at one stage. We don't any more, no.
PN434
Okay. And why does the company not do that any more?---Because clinical waste requires a different method of disposal. The waste that we deal with, sanitary and nappy waste is classified under the EBA as solid waste. In other words, it is not classified any differently as the household garbage you throw out every night from your kitchen tidy, so it is a very simple thing to dispose of. The clinical waste however requires incineration and specialist treatments that we are not equipped to handle. That is not our role.
PN435
Mr Campbell, you have given evidence that you pay the washers all around the country in accordance with the award?---Yes.
PN436
Is that the same in New South Wales?---Yes, it is national. Yes.
PN437
Okay. Were you aware that this award doesn't apply in New South Wales?---No, I wasn't to be honest. As I understood it, our washers - we were made respondents to this award at some stage last year.
PN438
That is correct?---Yes.
PN439
Well, for what is worth. Can I please show the witness exhibit T9?---Thank you.
PN440
Now, Mr Campbell, I appreciate that you are probably not familiar with this document?---No, I am not to be honest, no.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XXN MS LEARMONTH
PN441
And again I appreciate there is a fair bit of words on there so if we can go through it fairly slowly. Under the first - right at the top I should say, under the heading of Managing Sanitary Hygiene Waste you will see some italic text?---Yes.
PN442
Could you just on your own, just read that first paragraph?---Yes.
PN443
So the first paragraph that beings with "This guideline" and ends with "areas of hospitals", is in relation to Flick, is that a fairly fair assessment of where some of the waste is collected from?---We do collect waste from hospitals and aged care facilities, yes.
PN444
Yes, okay. And if you can just read the second paragraph in italics there, Mr Campbell?---Can I just make the point though, this is Queensland based, isn't it, Queensland?
PN445
Certainly. It is an information sheet that has come from the Queensland Government?---I think you will find in Queensland where it is classified as clinical waste, which in this case it is, we subcontract it out and we collect it back to the premises.
PN446
Mr Campbell, I am not looking to make any assertions in relation to clinical waste?---No, okay, sorry. Sorry, I jumped ahead.
PN447
No, you are all right?---What would you like me to look at?
PN448
Sorry, the second paragraph in italics there?---Yes.
PN449
If you could just read that on your own, thanks?---Yes, I have, yes.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XXN MS LEARMONTH
PN450
Okay. And so again is that a fairly fair assessment of where the sanitary bins and nappy bins would come from?---Yes, it is. Yes.
PN451
Okay. And we do have, as you said, the second last line there is not classed as clinical waste?---That is right, yes. Yes, it is just classified as general waste, yes.
PN452
Certainly. And Mr Campbell, if I can just take you to the first paragraph under definitions, which is sanitary hygiene waste?---Yes. Yes, I have read that. Yes.
PN453
Again is that the sort of products that your service technicians and washers collect and dispose of?---Yes, it is. Yes.
PN454
Okay. If I can just take you down to the paragraph that has got a title of segregation?---yes.
PN455
Without reading the paragraph, does your company segregate any of the products that - sorry, any of the waste that it collects?---No.
PN456
If I can take you to paragraph - sorry, the next paragraph which is titled Treatment?---Yes.
PN457
Does your company treat any of the sanitary waste it collects?---No.
PN458
If I can take you over the page, Mr Campbell. The next paragraph which is the major heading of Storage, does your company store any sanitary waste or nappy waste?---It may remain in the premises overnight but we don't store it as such, no.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XXN MS LEARMONTH
PN459
You are not a storage facility for sanitary or nappy waste?---No, no.
PN460
The next paragraph which is titled Transport, does your company undertake transport of sanitary waste and/or nappy waste?---We certainly transport the used containers back to the depot from the customer's premises, yes.
PN461
And is it your service technicians or your drivers who do that?---Yes.
PN462
And just the final heading there, Mr Campbell, which is disposal, does your company undertake the disposal of the sanitary and/or nappy waste?---No. No, it is collected from our premises by a subcontractor.
PN463
Okay. And which I think the evidence has been is SITA in relation to - - -?---It varies from State to State, location to location, yes.
PN464
And so once the driver or your service technician has brought the product into the depot it is then up to the washer to remove the liner from the bin?---Correct.
PN465
And dispose of that into the main compacter?---Correct, yes.
PN466
But then another contractor will then remove?---Will remove, yes.
PN467
Thank you, Mr Campbell. Mr Campbell, in your evidence you were asked if you had formed a view about the washers and what classification they would fall under and you gave the evidence of domestic offsider?---Correct.
**** DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL XXN MS LEARMONTH
PN468
Could you just tell me why or how you formed that view?---Well, reading the options available under this award, which are 4.12, 13 and 4.14, the 4.13, domestic offsider, seems to more aptly describe what the people do, manually handle and/or emptying the bins and positioning the bins for mechanical lift. Well, I compare that to positioning the bins for washing. Certainly when I looked at 4.12 and saw things like traffic management assistant, weighbridge operator, maintenance hand and sorter and handler of refuse, none of those things apply to what these people do.
PN469
I have no further questions for the witness.
PN470
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Ms Cirkovic.
PN471
MS CIRKOVIC: I have nothing.
PN472
PN473
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Cirkovic.
PN474
MS CIRKOVIC: Commissioner, I now would have intended to call the witness from Rentokil and I take it we have still not got a letter from legal counsel?
PN475
THE COMMISSIONER: No.
PN476
MS CIRKOVIC: All I can say is that the subpoena that was issued late last night was served on Mr Willingham of Rentokil who is their business manager and it was served on him approximately, I think it was about 11 o'clock this morning because I got a call just as I was leaving for the Commission, so 11.25 or so from their legal counsel to say that he was boarding a plane and that he would be sending a letter to the Commission saying that he couldn't attend and I am not sure what else.
PN477
So I am not sure how we will proceed from here. I would have thought it appropriate to hear from him before we do our submissions. Given that we can't finish today anyway, I would have thought our submissions would take longer than the rest of today, I would have thought perhaps the most convenient thing was maybe to set one other day where we could hear from him and maybe conclude our submissions that day.
PN478
THE COMMISSIONER: Are you in agreement with that, Ms Learmonth?
PN479
MS LEARMONTH: I agree with that, Commissioner. I have no concerns with that.
PN480
THE COMMISSIONER: We will go off the record.
OFF THE RECORD
PN481
THE COMMISSIONER: Having conferred with the parties it has been agreed to conclude the evidence and submissions in this matter. The Commission will stand adjourned until 9.15 on Friday, 5 December 2003 in Melbourne. The matter stands adjourned.
ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2003 [3.17pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #T1 TRANSPORT WORKERS REFUSE RECYCLING AND WASTE MANAGEMENT AWARD 2001 PN26
EXHIBIT #T2 DRAFT ORDER PN27
EXHIBIT #T3 CERTIFIED AGREEMENT RELATING TO DRIVERS PN36
EXHIBIT #T4 SUBMISSION DATED 28/11/2002 PN43
EXHIBIT #T5 SUBMISSIONS, DATED 11/07/2003 PN44
EXHIBIT #T6 SUBMISSIONS, DATED 08/07/2003 PN45
BARBARA JOAN PEISLEY, SWORN PN47
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS LEARMONTH PN47
EXHIBIT #T7 STATEMENT OF MS PEISLEY PN58
EXHIBIT #T8 LABEL PN81
EXHIBIT #T9 INFORMATION SHEET FROM QUEENSLAND GOVERNMENT RELATING TO WASTE MANAGEMENT PN112
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CIRKOVIC PN119
WITNESS WITHDREW PN177
PETER LESLEY HILLBRICH, SWORN PN199
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS LEARMONTH PN199
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CIRKOVIC PN238
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS LEARMONTH PN341
WITNESS WITHDREW PN357
EXHIBIT #F1 DRAFT PROPOSED AGREEMENT PN370
DAVID CHRISTOPHER CAMPBELL, AFFIRMED PN370
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS CIRKOVIC PN370
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LEARMONTH PN408
WITNESS WITHDREW PN473
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