|
|
Home
| Databases
| WorldLII
| Search
| Feedback
Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 10, 15 Adelaide St BRISBANE Qld 4000
(PO Box 13038 George Street Post Shop Brisbane Qld 4003)
Tel:(07)3229-5957 Fax:(07)3229-5996
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE
C2003/3762
CONSTRUCTION, FORESTRY, MINING AND ENERGY UNION
and
AAA SERVICES AND EQUIPMENT HIRE and OTHERS
Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re log of claims
BRISBANE
10.13 AM, TUESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2003
Continued from 10.11.03
PN2092
MR HERBERT: Your Honour, two things before we start with the witness evidence. In relation to the evidence of Mr Wyllie yesterday, there was an issue taken with Mr Wyllie in his evidence as to the number of employees who have - of Dyno Nobel who are actually engaged in - on or about coal mining sites or activities and, in particular, there was evidence, or there was cross-examination directed to the document which is an annexure to his first statement, and it was - it's the annexure which sets out the summary of employees in the various categories. It's the last page DW2 to the affidavit. Could I ask your Honour to go to that, because we're agreed at the bar table that I deal with the matter? I'm sorry, it's the last page of DW1, I'm sorry. It's a short spreadsheet of about five lines.
PN2093
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2094
MR HERBERT: And there was some adding and subtracting going on in relation to that yesterday, and the matter was clarified after that evidence was given, has been clarified with me, and Ms Gray has agreed to the matter being dealt with in this way, rather than recalling Mr Wyllie to clear the situation, and it's simply this, that the employees who perform shot firing on coal mining leases, which is the last entry, that's the 13 and 1 figure, is a category which is a subset of the previous lines. Does your Honour have that list?
PN2095
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm looking at the wrong page. Yes, I've got it now.
PN2096
MR HERBERT: Yes. So the employees who perform shot firing in the coal mining leases is - that number is included in the previous numbers, that is, lines 1 or 2. So the - one is double counting if one adds the numbers on the fifth line to the numbers on the first and second lines. So that the position on that document then is, if one subtracts five from the Bajool figure and four from the Warkworth figure, the total is 49, not the figure that was used yesterday. That is 49 persons who are engaged to work on a coal mining lease, or who work from off site depots in a coal mining area.
PN2097
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.
PN2098
MR HERBERT: Removing the manufacturing people pure and simple from those figures, the total number on that page is 49.
PN2099
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. If you go to the column on the right, Number of Wages Employees, just read out the corrections to me. 14 remains 14?
PN2100
MR HERBERT: 14 remains 14. From the 35 plus 10 plus 1 on the next, from that figure of 46 one subtracts nine, because there are nine at Bajool and Warkworth in total who work at those sites but do not go into - on to coal leases at all. So that's 49 - I'm sorry, 46 less nine, which is 37.
PN2101
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So it's 37 instead of 35?
PN2102
MR HERBERT: I'm sorry - - -
PN2103
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Give Mr Herbert my exhibit - - -
PN2104
MR HERBERT: That's 37 - - -
PN2105
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - and get him to correct it. I'll let you correct my exhibit.
PN2106
MR HERBERT: Excuse me a minute, your Honour. The figure on that sheet now I've put in the right-hand column - in the right-hand margin. The maths was slightly wrong before. The figure is now 14 plus 37, which is 51, on that sheet.
PN2107
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.
PN2108
MR HERBERT: The figure that's been used in the current - on the diagrammatic representation in the second figure was 48, and that would appear to be an historical variation because of the fact that the figures were taken at different times, but the difference between 48 and 51 is not, we think, material, but that 51 is the correct figure, now, of persons who either are based on a coal mining lease or go in - or based at a depot and go into coal mining leases as part of their employment. Now, having done that, if - your Honour, that's now - it appears to be the accepted evidentiary position in relation to Mr Wyllie's evidence.
PN2109
Can I turn to the question of the inspection document that was passed around yesterday? There are a number of - having read it now in some detail, there are a number of statements attributed to various persons who are not witnesses before the proceedings - in these proceedings, however it appears in each case in respect of my client's interests that evidence by witnesses in these proceedings has been given in these proceedings which has touched upon those matters, in any event. So that whilst the material in that form is technically inadmissible - it would be inadmissible as evidence - from a practical point of view, and we're minded to take a practical approach to this, there doesn't appear to be any controversy about the actual evidence itself.
PN2110
But I understand that Ms Gray has indicated that she proposes that this document be tendered as an aide-memoir in relation to what was seen and heard on the inspection and not to be taken to be evidence by those persons as to the truth of the contents of the statements that they make, but simply a documentary recording of the fact that statements to that effect were made. As I say, witnesses have given sworn evidence in relation to most of those, or all of the matters that affect my client's interest in the proceedings, and that's been dealt with by way of such cross-examination as people wished.
PN2111
So, on that basis, to take a practical approach to the matter, if it's thought that this document will be of some assistance in relation to the resolution of this matter, I don't object to it being tendered on the basis that I've just stated, that is, as an aide-memoir in relation to what was seen and heard on the proceedings and not as evidence of the truth of the contents of statements made by persons where those statements have been attributed to them in the document.
PN2112
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And, Mr Palmer, what's your position?
PN2113
MR PALMER: Silcar doesn't object to the tender of the document on the basis outlined by Mr Herbert. I've spoken to Ms Gray. There is one or two inaccuracies in there, but we'll put those right in evidence next Monday, if the Commission pleases.
PN2114
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thank you.
PN2115
MS GRAY: Your Honour, I'd - - -
PN2116
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And, Mr Palmer, as to your inquiry, I do pause for a minute at 11 o'clock. We will pause for a minute at 11 o'clock.
PN2117
MR PALMER: Thank you.
PN2118
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2119
MS GRAY: Your Honour, we'd seek to hand up a copy of that summary prepared by the union as an aide-memoir, the AIRC inspections at Gregory Crinum Mines, 28 October 2003 and at Blackwater Mine on 29 October 2003. I have made some handwritten corrections to that which were typos. In the main, one of them was correction to a reference to two Silcar electricians working underground at Crinum. I've deleted "underground at Crinum" and inserted "at the tunnel at Crinum" which is correct at that factual matter referred to by Mr Palmer, and I have corrected copies for Mr Herbert and Mr Palmer, and one for your Honour, of course, to have marked.
PN2120
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Gray8.
EXHIBIT #GRAY8 SUMMARY OF AIRC INSPECTIONS AT GREGORY CRINUM MINES ON 28/10/2003 AND BLACKWATER MINE ON 29/10/2003
PN2121
MS GRAY: Your Honour, before we call Mr Steve Pierce, who will be our next witness this morning, I understand that Mr Palmer wished to make some submissions on another matter.
PN2122
MR PALMER: Thank you, your Honour. Can I start, your Honour, by apologising. I'm having some difficulty hearing you, but that's partly because I've had the flu and I - so I apologise.
PN2123
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's all right. I'm always accused of being softly spoken on the bench.
PN2124
MR PALMER: Well, you've got such a soft, dulcet tone.
PN2125
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I'm such a soft and generous person really. That's me.
PN2126
MR PALMER: I just wanted to go to the - - -
PN2127
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll make an effort to speak louder for you, Mr Palmer.
PN2128
MR PALMER: For the old people in the audience.
PN2129
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2130
MR PALMER: Yes. Thank you, your Honour. I just want to refer to events of yesterday afternoon. As I comprehend it, your Honour has a very difficult talk ahead of you because, inter alia, you have to decide whether or not a dispute exists and Silcar, for its part, asserts that there is no dispute and we say about that that this is a technical exercise designed by the CFMEU to impose on national contractors, selected from the pack by who knows what process, to impose on national contractors terms and conditions of a consent award that was made in perhaps more halcyon times by the respondents to the award.
PN2131
What we say about that is that this is the only time that we will hear witness evidence from the union. I have got no indication from Ms Gray that she is going to call any other evidence, and we're looking at an award - an argument about making an award, if you find a dispute to exist, that has standards that go well beyond national standards. As I say, it's an award made by consent, so to ask the finding of dispute is a very important issue.
PN2132
Now, in determining the validity of this application, we contend that the genesis of the log, the interaction of the union with both Silcar, the company, and the employees of Silcar, are germane to the genuineness of the claim that there is a dispute in existence. In respect to that, I assert that I am at large to cross-examine Ms Gray's witnesses after they have put their evidence.
PN2133
As I comprehended yesterday - and I don't cavil with the Commission about it - but as I comprehended yesterday, your Honour encouraged me to take a more narrow approach in cross-examination. Now, if that is the case, with respect to the Commission, it may mean that at some subsequent point in these proceedings we have to ask for those witnesses to be recalled. I would just before we call these two witnesses, your Honour, seek a direction from you as to the true intent of your comments yesterday, please.
PN2134
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think I had any particular intent, Mr Palmer, that issues - there were two issues. One was that if what you were doing was dealing with those issues that have already been addressed in the separate hearing that took place earlier, that is, an examination of each of the clauses in the log for the purposes of striking them out because of not being genuine or any other matter of that kind, they are matters that have already been heard, and there has been a full day of hearing and extensive submissions by a number of parties about those matters.
PN2135
So if they went to those old arguments of genuineness and other matters of that kind, I wanted to know what you were doing because that seemed to me where you were going. As to the other matter, the matter I raised was that it was my view, and that's the matter I put to Mr Herbert, that the witnesses were here to give factual evidence. Their opinion, as to whether or not the work that was performed by these contractors was or was not in the coal industry, is a matter to be determined by the Commission. I'm not sure that their opinion on the matter is of any assistance to me. It's of interest, but I didn't need Mr Herbert to cross-examine about the accuracy or otherwise of whether or not somebody had a view about whether or not this was in the coal industry. I think that is a matter for the Commission.
PN2136
After that for some time it seemed to me that you were addressing whether or not the union had instructions from its members - was following upon the instructions of its members almost to commence the log. I'm not sure where that takes us. That's a matter that you asked questions about to see where it went. But as to that other matter, at the beginning of this matter when it was programmed, technical objections to the log based on the contents of the clauses, and whether they were in or whether they were out, whether they were genuine or not, they are matters that have already had a full day of hearing. So that was the reason that I asked you where you were going on that.
PN2137
I do not, in fact, desire you to shorten your cross-examination if it affects the interests of your client, but I'm not sure how otherwise I can assist you about my attitude. That is the extent of it.
PN2138
MR PALMER: Thank you, your Honour. I understand that and I understand then that, whilst the decision as to whether or not a matter is part of the process or process maintenance in the industry is a technical matter, my understanding of your comments is that it well may be affected by the evidence of the people who assert that that is the fact.
PN2139
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The factual matters about which they give evidence, not their own personal opinion really. Mr Palmer, in any event, the difference between your touching on those areas and not is not going to affect the timing of the matter a great deal. It's the difference between half an hour and 45 minutes probably. I was just raising that for you to consider. If you think that your client's interests will be adversely affected by not dealing with them, then feel free. It's a matter for you.
PN2140
MR PALMER: If the Commission pleases, I don't press.
PN2141
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So where are we?
PN2142
MS GRAY: Your Honour, we were about to call Mr Steve Pierce to give evidence. If I can just say one thing before we do, that is that contrary to the submissions of Mr Palmer - I understand it has been dealt with - an issue that hasn't been dealt with was that he has referred to a number of times as it being a consent award. The Coal Mining Industry Production Engineering Award has been subject to approximately three years of the simplification process. The result of that award and what is now in it cannot, in our submission, be regarded as consent award. It was arbitrated and by two Full Benches.
PN2143
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is also a matter for submissions though, Ms Gray. We don't need to deal with any of that now. We just need to hear the factual matters about which these particular witnesses intend to give evidence.
PN2144
MS GRAY: We're calling Mr Steve Pierce, your Honour.
PN2145
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN2146
MS GRAY: And both of our next witnesses will be making affirmations rather than oaths, your Honour.
PN2147
THE COMMISSION: Mr Pierce, could you face her Honour and please state your full name and address?
PN2148
MR PIERCE: Steven Alan George Pierce, Lot 6 Ian Redacliffe Road, The Leap.
PN2149
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, where?
PN2150
PN2151
MS GRAY: Mr Pierce, have you prepared a statement for these proceedings?---I have.
PN2152
And do you have it with you?---I do.
PN2153
Do you need to make any corrections to that statement?---I do.
PN2154
What are they?---In paragraph 1, line 3; I've held the position for over three years, not two years. And in paragraph 19, first and second lines, remove "got an on site contract to perform", and replace it with "won the on site maintenance".
PN2155
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So it should read what?---It should read, "when it won the on site maintenance work".
PN2156
On Gregory mine?---Yes.
PN2157
And what was the paragraph number of the previous change?---Number 1, the third line, where it says, "the position which I've held for over two", it's "over three".
PN2158
Should be three.
PN2159
MS GRAY: Mr Pierce, also paragraph 15, the second dot point I have noted on my copy a correction that was - - - ?---Yes, sorry, it's night shift instead of day shift, the last word on the second dot point.
PN2160
Now, is that statement as corrected true and correct as at 1 September 2003?---That's correct.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XN MS GRAY
PN2161
We'd seek to have that marked, your Honour.
PN2162
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Gray9.
EXHIBIT #GRAY9 STATEMENT OF STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE DATED 01/09/2003
PN2163
MS GRAY: Does any of your evidence requiring updating since 1 September, Mr Pierce?---There could be some minor updating but it's reasonably accurate.
PN2164
Okay. Now if I could take you to your evidence in respect to G and S Engineering. You've given examples of the type of work which is being performed, has been performed, is being performed by G and S Engineering in the Queensland underground mines. Could you please briefly describe the work that you've exampled in paragraph 11 and how it fits into the process of coal mining?---Well, with secondary support work after the initial driveage is down, there is some ribbon roof support put up, and there is - to ensure that the - particularly the roof stays up. Secondary support is put in; it's usually cable bolts, sometimes mega bolts, to ensure that the roof stays up and that the mining process is safe and can continue. Without it there is every possibility the roof would come in and the process stops along with obviously the possible loss of life. Belt installations and belt maintenance - belt installation work with the process of development. The belts have to follow the machinery so that the coal extractor during development can be taken to the surface for processing. If the belts aren't installed and the belts aren't maintained, then the process collapses. The development process is integral to the part of longwall mining and if you don't get the development process done then the longwall mining process fails. Cutting of overcasts - overcasts are cut to redirect - permanently redirect ventilation within the mine to ensure that fresh air is taken to new mining areas. Obviously without overcasts and permanent redirection of ventilation, then there can be no mining process. Again, with main gate relocation, the main gate is an integral part of the longwall operation, and if you don't have that, you don't have a longwall operation, and you don't have coal coming out. Road header work is driving new roads, often taking rock out of the roof, or rock through faults, and if you don't have the - the road development, then the mining process stops.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XN MS GRAY
PN2165
And when you say "driving new roads," driving is cutting?---Cutting coal and sometimes cutting rock.
PN2166
And roads are for transportation underground, are they?---Some roads are for transportation of men and supplies in and out of working faces. Some of the roads are belt roads, and both are required - both are separate to each other, but both are required as part of the process of coal mining. You know, stone dusting is a regulatory requirement, and it must be performed. Without that, the industry safety and health representatives, either on-site or off-site, will shut down an operation. It - suppose, in simple terms, it ensures that you don't have any dust coming from the ribs - same as road works - and it lessens the chances of explosion. Pumping is - you know, it's keeping the water out of the place. If you don't have - if you don't have pumping and you have a build-up of water, then you end up with a situation where the mine ceases to operate because you either can't get in and out of the face, or the face becomes inundated with water and you can't work it. And, you know, diesel machinery repairs, where, if your machinery is not running, then, obviously, the operation doesn't work.
PN2167
Belt cleaning?---Belt cleaning, again, is - is a safety factor. If you have a build-up of fines under the belts - there are plenty of examples of recent years where running - running in the rollers, that heats up, you get - you get a heating, you get an ignition, and in the worst case scenario, you could end up with an explosion, but you can - you will at least get a fire.
PN2168
And "fines" being powdered coal dust?---Yes.
PN2169
Preparation for ventilation, doors and stoppings?---Yes. A lot of ventilation, when it's permanently rediverted - when areas are worked out, you move away from, they've got to be sealed. Obviously there is a regulatory process to ensure that that's done, and it's all, again, connected with either the operation of the mine, or working away from an area of the mine to ensure the safety of mine workers.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XN MS GRAY
PN2170
Longwall support?---It's - in most areas, the longwall support is ensuring the support process of the longwall - not actually the cutting of coal, but ensuring that supplies are there, that maintenance of equipment on the longwall or maintenance of equipment supporting the longwall.
PN2171
And longwall relocation?---That's the actual removal of the longwall when the - when the mining process in the particular panel is completed, they've mined the block out. The wall chocks, the head - all the associated equipment are removed from that area and transported to another area that's been developed and set up ready for mining.
PN2172
Installing bird holes?---Yes. It's - it's, again, with - in connection with pumping and road maintenance, the bird hole or bird's nest is - I suppose it's - it's a cylinder that's either split or it's a gauze cylinder - there are holes drilled into the - into the roadway and they're used to - to pump the moisture out so that it doesn't sit under the roadway and break the - break the roadway up, which - which leads to permanent road damage and it can either be time consuming to repair, or end up in a process where you - it's difficult to get in and out of an area.
PN2173
And grading roads is for the same purpose; to maintain their - - -?---To maintain the area so that the men have got access to it and supplies are able to be brought in and out.
PN2174
So you've said that all of that work is underground coal mining work. Where do you say that the work of underground coal mining starts and finishes?---In my view, coal mining starts at the mining of coal and it finishes when, in an underground situation, when the coal is out of the prep plant.
PN2175
So when you say "the mining of coal", would that be at the longwall face, or the removal of pillars in a bord and pillar operation?---It would be all of it. It would be removal of pillars; it would be sumping; development work to set the next block up for a longwall, and the actual mining of coal on a longwall, or place change in a place change operation.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XN MS GRAY
PN2176
And development work before any - - -?---Yes.
PN2177
- - - longwall starts?---Yes, which is the development work, setting the blocks up.
PN2178
And what about with open an cut? You've worked many years in open cut as well; where would you say that starts and finishes?---With an open cut, the operation would start with the removal of topsoil or overburden, and would cease at the loading of coal on the train.
PN2179
And the coal is loaded on the train in what state?---Crushed, washed.
PN2180
Now, we've heard from G and S that they've lost some of the work at Moranbah North coal mine. Are you aware of that?---Yes.
PN2181
Are you aware of where that work has gone to, at all?---I think, when - from memory, when G and S lost the contract, Allied Mining won the contract when they lost it.
PN2182
And after Allied?---I think Allied are there with some of it; I think G and S are now getting some of that work back, and the mine itself has taken some of that work back and are doing it with permanent employees.
PN2183
Are you aware of any major competitors to - I mean, you mentioned Allied, but any other major competitors of G and S in the type of work that you've outlined in your witness statement done in Queensland?---There would be Walters and they're working currently at North Goonyella. They did some work at Kenmare which is now closed, and they're looking to do work at two other pits.
PN2184
And is that similar work to the sort of work you've outlined?---That's similar work to that, yes, and would be REB Engineering at Crinum.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XN MS GRAY
PN2185
And do you know what terms and conditions those companies apply?---With Walters it is coal mining. We have a certified agreement with them in the process of negotiating a new agreement. With REB, they have - well, they're in the process of a certified agreement which reflects the coal industry award conditions.
PN2186
Now, are you aware on what basis BMA mine sites engage contractors?---Usually under a preferred customer service type agreement.
PN2187
That's rather than a contract?---Yes.
PN2188
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't understand the distinction, Ms Gray.
PN2189
MS GRAY: Can you explain the distinction between the two, Mr Pierce?---With my experience with the preferred customer or preferred contractor arrangements, there is no set contract. They go into a process of agreeing on a price and then when they wish work to be done they'll contact one of a number of people that are preferred contractors, to have those people perform the work with a set contract as in a total plant shut-down or a dragline shut-down, they'll actually put that out to tender and people will be required to put a firm tender in and a firm contract and that will be let as a particular contract.
PN2190
And that means that that contractor gets that work?---That's right, and it stands alone.
PN2191
To the exclusion of others?---That's right.
PN2192
Mr Pierce, you said that you started in the industry many years ago working for a contractor?---That's correct.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XN MS GRAY
PN2193
And what happened in respect of that? Who were you working for and in what circumstances?---I was engaged as an auto electrician by Bowen Earthmoving and Haulage, working in Bowen. When I worked at Collinsville I was paid mine rates under the miner maintenance agreement. When I was out at Abbott Point, when they were constructing Abbott Point, I was paid under the agreement out there. When we were working on the properties around Bowen or on any other projects that weren't on the sites, then I was paid what we were paid in the workshop, which was a different rate.
PN2194
No further questions, thank you, your Honour.
PN2195
PN2196
MR HERBERT: Mr Pierce, can I take you to paragraph 9 of your statement please. You say there that:
PN2197
G and S perform production and engineering coal mining industry work.
PN2198
Are you suggesting that G and S perform production work in the sense that they produce coal?---Yes.
PN2199
And how do they produce coal which is then taken out of the mine?---They produce coal in that where they have done development work, which is the cutting of roadways in a mine, it produces coal as part of that project - process, sorry.
PN2200
In the past they've done rock cutting for what you'd call roads - I suppose us lay people would call tunnels. Is that right?---There is rock cut as part of the development road drivage but there is also coal cut.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2201
None of that is production work?---It is.
PN2202
You've not seen G and S produce any production quantities of coal or any production qualities of coal. Is that so?---I have.
PN2203
You have?---I have.
PN2204
And how have they done that?---They had people working at Cook Colliery where they were originally doing drivage into the argo scene and they then had those people working within the crews at Cook Colliery in the winning of coal.
PN2205
How long ago was that?---Probably three, four months ago.
PN2206
Three of four months ago?---Yes.
PN2207
Working in crews?---That's right.
PN2208
Doing production coal extraction?---That's right.
PN2209
That's not in your statement, is it?---I think it says they were working at Cook Colliery coal cutting.
PN2210
Coal cutting, I see.
PN2211
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where is this in your statement?---In number 11. It's the fourth dot point - Cook Collieries, says coal cutting.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2212
MR HERBERT: Well, you see, I have some difficulty with this. Mr Smith was in the witness box yesterday from G and S Engineering. None of that was put to him. Are you aware of that?---I wasn't here yesterday so I can't comment on what may or may not have been said.
PN2213
Well, yesterday Mr Smith gave evidence in these proceedings that his company is not engaged in coal mining activities and he wasn't challenged about that. And you're now telling me that employees - when I say "he" - employees of G and S - are you now telling me that employees of G and S are out there digging coal for a living?---There are people out there that are mining coal, yes.
PN2214
I see. Well, none of this was put. Did you provide that information to Ms Gray for her to put to Mr Smith yesterday?---I provided information to Ms Gray, yes.
PN2215
I see. And how long did this go on for, that employees of G and S were working in a production coal mining crew?---It's still continuing.
PN2216
They're doing it now?---They have a deputy at Cook Colliery at the moment who is in charge of a crew there which is, you know, as an underground, the deputy is the person that's in charge of the operation.
PN2217
They have a deputy?---Yes.
PN2218
G and S Engineering have a deputy, coal mining deputy?---They have supplied a deputy to Cook Colliery unless he's terminated in the last week and a half.
PN2219
I see. And what is the purpose of this deputy's appointment? What does this deputy do?---A deputy is in charge of the crew. So he's in charge of not only the safety of the crew but overseeing the production requirements of that crew through the length of the shift.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2220
And this is coal production?---That's right.
PN2221
Cook Colliery have appointed an employee of an engineering firm to do coal production?---Cook Colliery have engaged this person who has been supplied by G and S Engineering.
PN2222
Is he an employee of G and S Engineering?---Yes.
PN2223
You're sure of that?---Yes.
PN2224
You see, none of that was put to Mr Smith yesterday. He was here in the witness box and no one suggested any of that to him. How come we're hearing about it for the first time now?---Well, at the time of the deputy - the time I made my statement, the deputy was not engaged. I only became aware of it at state level when I was at Cook Colliery last week.
PN2225
And enough time to provide that information to Ms Gray so it could be put to Mr Smith to give him an opportunity to talk about it?---Possibly.
PN2226
All right. Well, you say that - and is there any other location other than Cook Colliery where you say G and S employees are engaged in the production mining of coal?---They were at Moranbah North.
PN2227
When?---During the process that we were trying to negotiate an agreement with G and S to cover their terms and conditions, just prior to them losing the contract to Allied.
PN2228
You see, you've got here in Moranbah North about the supply of deputies. You've mentioned the supply of deputies and I was going to ask you about that, what that meant, but are you saying that happened at Cook Colliery as well?---Yes.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2229
And a deputy - you see, if G and S were some time ago involved in a little bit of tunnelling or drivage work in cutting rock with a rock cutting machine - is that right?
PN2230
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where at?
PN2231
MR HERBERT: Sorry, at where?
PN2232
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where at?
PN2233
MR HERBERT: At Moranbah North?---As part of the process they were also cutting coal.
PN2234
With a rock driving machine - with a rock cutting machine?---Yes.
PN2235
A driver - they were cutting coal?---Road header, probably.
PN2236
Road header, and they were cutting coal with that in the process of drilling roads for ventilation and other purposes?---That's my understanding.
PN2237
And they went through some coal in the course of the work that they were contracted to do in relation to the provision of pipes and pipe-work and doing work in relation to ventilation and work in relation to fabric - steel fabricated roof support devices, and things of that kind?---And they were doing development driveage.
PN2238
Development driveage, and that involved rock cutting?---And coal cutting.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2239
Well, occasionally, was you'd cut through the rock, you might come across some non-production coal?---Occasionally when you drive through the coal, you come across bands of rock.
PN2240
All right. And you're saying that they were cutting through coal, pure and simple, and the coal was recovered for production purpose?---That's right.
PN2241
I suggest that's not true, Mr Pierce?---Well, I'd suggest that you might be incorrect.
PN2242
I see. And you're saying that happened at Moranbah North?---Yes.
PN2243
And that, you say, is all bound up in the words "cutting of coal and sumps"?---That's correct.
PN2244
So they were doing production coal mining work, were they, at Moranbah North. So we've got Cook Colliery - - -?---They were producing coal as part of the process, yes.
PN2245
Producing coal as part of the process of doing driveage, that is, cutting - - -?---That's right, doing development driveage.
PN2246
Yes. As I understood what you said before, your view about it, Mr Pierce, is that the coal mining starts once the coal is being cut; is that right?---I think I've said the winning of coal.
PN2247
The winning of coal, once the coal has been physically won from the ground, that's when the coal mining process starts?---In an underground.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2248
In an underground situation obviously. The driveage work, using a road header machine, historically, in the Queensland coal mining industry, has always been done by civil engineering contractors; isn't that right?---No. My understanding is the development of portals or drifts has been done outside the coal industry but - - -
PN2249
Outside the coal industry?--- - - - but driveage within a coal mine has been done by permanent employees.
PN2250
The development of portals being the initial - - -?---From the surface to - - -
PN2251
- - - shaft from the surface to the seam - - -?---Yes.
PN2252
- - - has always been done by civil engineering contractors and, in a number of occasions, though, the union and award coverage of those contractors has been with the AWU, for example?---That's right.
PN2253
And it's always been considered to be AWU rock tunnelling, civil engineering type work; is that right?---I don't know whether it's always been considered to be AWU, but it's been considered to be outside the industry till it reaches coal in a number of occasions.
PN2254
Yes, and on the basis that until that driveage reaches coal, when one reaches the coal seam itself, there has been a transfer of usually from AWU to CFMEU coverage and usually from civil engineering firms over to coal mining contractors; that's at the point of hand-over?---Where it's been a new operation. Where it's been an existing operation, I don't believe that that stands. My understanding is where it's been a greenfield or a new operation that what you're outlining has occurred on the majority of occasions, but where it's been an existing operation, that the driving of a new drift has been deemed to be part of the industry.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2255
Well, you say it's been deemed; deemed by who to be part of the industry?---I'm just trying to think of when it was. There was an incident when I was at central council, it was reported - it was in New South Wales. I think it may have been at Coal Cliff where there was an argument, where there was a new drift going in, and the company were indicating that it was construction work, paid at non-coal rates, and from memory, I think it was the decision at the end of the day, was because it was part of an existing operation, that it was paid at coal rates.
PN2256
Well, that may have been a pragmatic compromise of that particular situation, but civil construction contractors have always been engaged to perform that sort of work either at the initial drift or if a - any form of new rock cutting, non-production work is to be undertaken, civil construction contractors have been brought in for that kind of work as well, haven't they?---No, I don't believe that that's correct. As I said, with development driveage, that contractors have been engaged, as have permanent mine employees been engaged to do that work. Part of that work of cutting through to develop new driveage roads, there may be a requirement to cut through rock. There may be rolls and faults that have to be cut through, but the majority at the time, coal is won as part of that process. That coal is then sent to the surface, it's washed in a wash-plant, and exported or sold internally wherever the market of the mine owner is.
PN2257
As an incidental or accidental by-product of the fundamental function, namely, that the - - -?---No, it's not incidental - - -
PN2258
- - - road is being driven - - -?---It's not incidental.
PN2259
- - - the road is being driven to reach the main coal seam and until they do so, it's considered to be civil engineering work, isn't it?---No, it's not. It's not reaching the main coal seam. The driveage - driveage and development work is in the seam that's being mined. It's not trying to reach a main seam. It's part of the seam that's being mined; you drive a road down there. You have a king pillar or key pillar which is not mined out. You drive roads down - those roads through the main seam are to get to and develop a block of coal which is then taken out by a longwall or a process of developing a number of pillars which are then extracted or partially extracted in a bord and pillar operation.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2260
I suggest to you that in the past, Moranbah - at Moranbah North, G and S have been involved in the - and the initial driveage work, they have not performed any form of coal production; they have not mined any coal at any time at Moranbah North?---Well, as I said previously, you can suggest that, but I believe that that's incorrect.
PN2261
And the purpose of their function was not for the extraction of coal at all, but rather to put access, in some cases to put access roads in place for the ventilation and other works that they're otherwise contracted - and the maintenance works that they are otherwise contracted to do. It's not coal extraction; it's ancillary to the other functions that they're primarily there to do?---Well, as I said, I don't accept the position that you're putting.
PN2262
But you do accept, don't you, that certainly at the initial stages of an access road, the original drift, that has always been considered to be outside the coal mining industry; that's a civil engineering job?---As I said, in a new pit, I accept that in the majority of occasions, what you're putting is correct. In established pits, I don't accept that that is always the position.
PN2263
Well, in the work that's been done that you've referred to that you say G and S employees have done from time to time, G and S at a number of the mines that you've referred to, have had short or medium term contracts at some of those mines to do engineering, maintenance works; do you accept that?---I accept that they've had short and medium term contracts.
PN2264
And that the fundamental nature - you're aware of the G and S operations, you're aware of their Mackay facility?---Yes.
PN2265
And you're aware of what their core business is?---I know what their core business used to be, but I don't believe that it is the same now as when the business was originally started.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2266
All right.
PN2267
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We might just pause for a minute. Thank you. Yes.
PN2268
MR HERBERT: Thank you.
PN2269
Mr Pierce, can I take you to the work that you've set out in - well, the pages aren't numbered, but it's in paragraph 11 of your statement. What do you say that you were aware that G and S's core business used to be?---Originally G and S did maintenance shut-down work on draglines, prep plants, drills around coal mines.
PN2270
And what work do they do not around coal mines; are you aware of that?---No, my work is - my employment was in conjunction with a coal mine and the only time we saw G and S was when they were coming out to do major shut-down work.
PN2271
So your perception of the work done by G and S is coloured by the fact that you only ever saw them anywhere near a coal site. You didn't see them anywhere else doing anything else in any other industry?---Not while I was employed at the coal mine, no.
PN2272
No, all right. Or since?---Since then with discussion that I've had with some of the management of G and S they have obviously outlined other work that they perform.
PN2273
Have you seen the witness statements in these proceedings in relation to the other work they perform?---Yes.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2274
And you see that they have a vast range of work and that, in fact, the coal industry or work in the coal industry is a minor proportion of the work they do?---I don't - don't accept that it's a minor portion, no.
PN2275
All right. You've got Oaky North secondary support work. At Oaky North there was one contract where they were engaged to do some secondary support work some years ago and have never done it since. Is that right?---That's correct.
PN2276
The belt installations are mechanical engineering work, are they not?---No.
PN2277
Why not?---Belt installations are performed by a number of different people on mine sites that have the required skills.
PN2278
But the work is work of a mechanical engineering nature?---In what way are you saying - do you - - -
PN2279
Well, it involves the installation of a part of a - the conveyor belts, I assume you mean by that?---Yes.
PN2280
The conveyor belt system is a very large mechanical engine, isn't it? It's a machine?---There is a drive head on it but there are also a number of belt structures, which are just a steel frame with rollers on them - - -
PN2281
Yes, that's right?--- - - - which are put in place and it - in a number of the operations it doesn't require any specific special training to be able to install them.
PN2282
Well, when I said it was an engineering function I wasn't suggesting you need an engineering degree or you need to be an engineer, but it involves modification or maintenance to a very large machine, does it not?---Oh, not a large machine per se, no.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2283
Well, we saw some pretty large - - - ?---It's a number of components.
PN2284
We saw some pretty large belts the other day that go for kilometres?---Yes, they're large belts but not a large machine. The drive head would be, I suppose, the machine that runs it and the loop take-up, but I wouldn't class them as large machinery on the scale of what's used in the industry.
PN2285
Right. Well, then, the belt installation involves the modification or maintenance or reinstatement of a conveyor belt onto a conveyor system. Is that right?---Yes.
PN2286
Is that what you're talking about there?---Yes.
PN2287
Well, I suggest to you that is a mechanical engineering maintenance function that - - - ?---No, it's not. It's all part of the process. It's all part of the equipment that you need as part of the mining process.
PN2288
Yes. And it's working on the equipment. It's not digging coal. It's working on the equipment that is used to transport coal. Isn't that right?---It's installing the equipment. They're not working on it.
PN2289
Well, you have to work on it to install it, Mr Pierce?---They're working with it.
PN2290
I don't want to be petty about this, but - - - ?---Well - - -
PN2291
Why won't you accept this is a mechanical engineering job?---Because I don't believe it is.
PN2292
All right. Well, we will bear that in mind. Oaky number 1, the belt maintenance again. You don't think that that's a mechanical - belt maintenance is not a maintenance and engineering function?---It's a function that can be carried out by anybody that's aware of what the requirements are.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2293
All right. Is that your answer? And the roadheader work; what do you mean by roadheader work?---Again, with a roadheader they were cutting development in a number of areas.
PN2294
Cutting through rock in areas - - - ?---And coal.
PN2295
- - - with a roadheader machine?---That's right.
PN2296
I see. And for what purpose?---From memory - from memory at Oaky 1, I believe some of that was to catch up on development work that the mine itself had fallen behind because of a number of strata problems that they had.
PN2297
So they engaged G and S to do some rock tunnelling work?---No, development work in the seam to expose blocks for the longwall.
PN2298
Central Colliery; cutting overcasts. Now, you say that's for redirection of ventilation. They were engaged in the fabrication of the ventilation for conduits which carry the cool air through the mine, were they not?---No, an overcast - an overcast is usually taking the roof out. It's not - it's not about putting ventilation tubing up.
PN2299
Well, you see, you said - as I heard your evidence that was - the cutting of overcasts, etcetera, was to do with the redirection of ventilation?---That's right, but not ventilation tubing. The overcast itself is you cut an area out of the roof and then you put - you put a surface underneath it, often steel, and then crete it over and it permanently redirects through that area ventilation to another area of the mine. It's not necessarily done - in an overcast it's not done with ventilation tubing.
PN2300
But an overcast is done - they were contracted to provide the steel structure that you've referred to; to fabricate and provide the steel structure in that area so as to facilitate the redirection of ventilation. Is that right?---I don't know if they were contracted to supply it. You're telling me.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2301
Well, if they were contracted to fabricate and supply the steel structure that's necessary to support this redirection of the ventilation any work that was done in cutting that structure in was a part of the installation of the structure they were contracted to provide?---No, I don't believe so.
PN2302
Would you accept that?---No.
PN2303
Why not?---Because in previous times the overcast would have been cut by permanent mine employees. The fabricated material, if it was to be used, would be supplied by a third party, which would then be fitted by the mine employees and creted over.
PN2304
Yes, but I think you're accepting that it would be - it may not, in your experience, have been the way that was traditionally done, but that it is a part of the installation of an overcast that you not only have to supply the steel structure but you have to install it?---Who installs it and who supplies it can be two different issues.
PN2305
Well, if the same firm is contracted to supply it and install it then it would be necessary for them to do a little rock-cutting in order to install that overcast?---Not necessarily, no.
PN2306
I thought you said before that in your experience mine workers would have cut - - - ?---Yes. Because - because a third party supplies to the mine, for want of a better word the structure at the bottom of an overcast to re-divert ventilation, it doesn't go hand in glove that those people then necessarily cut the overcast itself - - -
PN2307
I'm not - - - ?--- - - - put the structure up and it becomes part of a whole process. Because you manufacture the steel it doesn't necessarily mean then that you are a separate process.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2308
Well, thank you, Mr Pierce, but my question was did you understand that they were engaged in a supply and install contract for this overcast? They fabricated and supplied the steelwork and then took it in and installed it. And in installing it one of the ways you install that is to - it's necessary sometimes to cut rock?---No, I don't accept that that's - that's hand in glove part of the process, no.
PN2309
But if you have to install - if your contract is to supply it and install it then you will have to cut rock as part of that process, won't you?---No, not necessarily.
PN2310
Why not?---Because if the overcast has already been cut - if your - if your contract - - -
PN2311
Well, we assume the overcast wasn't cut but, Mr Pierce, I didn't understand this was going to be difficult; that if you were asked to supply and install an overcast and the installation requires the cutting then that's part of what you have to do as a supply and install contract, don't you?---Well, that's separate to what you said before, which was probably why you got a different answer.
PN2312
Well, what is your answer now, Mr Pierce?---My view would be if you were asked to supply and install material for an overcast you would need to know whether you were going to have to cut the overcast or whether it was going to be done by the permanent mine employees. If it's not being done by them and you don't have the facilities to do it, then you would have to engage someone to do it or do it yourself.
PN2313
And, in fact, that is what happened. They did it themselves. As an incidental part of a supply and install contract the engineering works, namely the metal structure, needed to support all of this?---I would suggest that the metal structure is the incidental part of cutting the overcast, not the way that you've suggested.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2314
I see. Preparing roads for drive head installation; what do you say that's about?---Preparing the roads?
PN2315
Yes?---It would depend on where you are in the pit.
PN2316
Well, it's your evidence - we're talking about your evidence about the Central Colliery. What do you say they were doing there?---At Central Colliery they were - they were actually cutting into - doing developmental work, preparing and opening the - opening an area up for installation, which can be opening up an already developed area, cutting more coal out of the rib and placing more roof support in.
PN2317
I see. And the ribs are what?---Oh, the ribs are the side - you mine a board out or a tunnel. You have a roof and the two sides of it are ribs.
PN2318
And they were just simply drilling tunnels, were they, not providing any - - -?---No, the coal that is won in that process is then coal that is washed and sold by the owner of the mine.
PN2319
Right. And you say they did that in the Central Colliery when?---I couldn't be specific with dates, sorry.
PN2320
How long ago?---Would have been within the last twelve months.
PN2321
I see. Now, Cook Colliery, you say was just pure and simple, down there mining coal with a deputy and employees as members of the coal cutting crew?---That's right.
PN2322
Is that right?---That's right.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2323
I see. Well, and Crinum, the main gate relocation. The main gate is - - -?---Main gate is the integral part of the longwall. Basically, it's the brains of the longwall.
PN2324
Yes, it's a significant machine, isn't it?---It is a significant - - -
PN2325
A complex and sophisticated machine?---Well, it's significant; I don't know whether it's complex. It's electronic, but, I wouldn't suggest that it's complex.
PN2326
And it needs to be dismantled and relocated?---That's right.
PN2327
And that's an engineering function and electrical function, isn't it?---It's an electrical function to disconnect and reconnect it, and it's really to relocate it and place it is really donkey work.
PN2328
And it was - but it is an engineering and electrical function?---Yes and no.
PN2329
I'll take your yes, thank you, Mr Pierce?---I'm sure you would.
PN2330
Southern Colliery, road header work, and what was that?---Again, driving roads, driving gate roads into the seam, to get into the seams to open them up for mining purposes.
PN2331
And when was that?---I can't remember, I'm sorry. Some of it's - some of it's been a time ago, but some of it's been in the last twelve months, from memory.
PN2332
So some years ago?---Would have - it's been within the last two years, a number of that.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2333
Can I suggest that none of that work that you've mentioned there is actually in relation to any of the driveage work at Oaky North Number 1, Central Colliery, Southern Colliery or Moranbah North, is being carried on at the moment?---It may possibly not be; I haven't had time - I've been involved in other issues, and haven't been, with the exception of Cook, at those pits in the most recent past.
PN2334
Going to Moranbah North, you've indicated that there's primary and secondary support work. What do you say that involves?---Primary support, once an area has been opened up with a continuous mine in it, then as you go in with the requirement of legislation to support the roof, and in some cases, rib support, as the process - the mining process goes through to ensure that the integrity of the roof, there is what is called cable bolts or megas are put up to ensure that the mesh and the sixes and the high tens that go in there - six foot bolts and high tens along the - go in there - maintain the integrity of the roof. Cable bolting stitches it, depending on what process they use of normal bolting or lacing, boot lacing, is designed to ensure that the roof stays up so that if it's a belt road, that the belts able to be installed, and you don't have any concerns of the roof coming down damaging the structure of the belt, and if it's a travel road, there is no concern with obviously material coming out of the roof and damaging equipment or injuring employees.
PN2335
So that involves the installation of a substantial amount of metal work?---After the area has been mined as part of the process.
PN2336
And, again, there's a substantial amount of steel work involved in that, work that - and equipment that needs to be - or steel that needs to be cut, items that need to be welded - - -?---No.
PN2337
- - - and put into position?---No, that's not correct.
PN2338
Well, not on-site welding, I'll just leave that - items that need to be fabricated, items - steel work that needs to be cut to shape - - -?---No.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2339
- - - and the length - - -?---No.
PN2340
- - - that sort of work?---No, that's not correct.
PN2341
None of it?---No. On primary installation, which is done when you go in and mine, there are roof bolts which are put in as part of the process on the rigs - - -
PN2342
You say G and S does that?---They have done that, yes.
PN2343
Puts in roof - when?---If they've done primary support, which they did as part of driveage work, you have to put primary support up as you mine.
PN2344
I see. So you're saying that the primary support that was done in order to support the drives that they were putting in as part of the civil engineering function that we discussed earlier - - -?---Well, you can call them a civil engineering function - I don't. It's part of a mining function; it's development - as I've said on numerous occasions now, it's development of roads to get into the main blocks. When you mine that area out, the legislation requires that you then support the roof as you go, and on a number of occasions you have to put in rib support. Once that's up, it's usually roof bolts, depending on the requirements of the mine manager; it depends on what pattern you put up with mesh. The secondary support is put in usually after the initial function of mining has been completed, and as I said, it's mega bolts or it's cable bolts to ensure the integrity of the roof.
PN2345
And that's to secure the ground that they cut for their drives?---That's right, to make the roadways.
PN2346
Yes, cutting of coal at Moranbah North; is that part of the driveage?---That's right.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2347
I see. You're not suggesting they're out there operating longwall, or anything?---To my knowledge, Moranbah North supply their own people for the longwall.
PN2348
Yes?---About the only place they do.
PN2349
And the cutting of sumps, the cutting of sumps is merely cutting of a hole in the floor, isn't it - - -?---No.
PN2350
- - - for the draining - drain the water out?---No, a sump in an underground - a sump in an underground operation is not as people understand a sump as a hole in the floor. Sumping out is cutting into pillars and taking coal from the pillars. A certain amount of coal as per a mining process without destroying the integrity of the pillar.
PN2351
And you're saying that G and S Engineering did that sort of work?---It's done as part of a development process, often cutting niches into areas for stowage of equipment.
PN2352
Did you witness that work being done by G and S Engineering employees?---No, I didn't, because - - -
PN2353
Well, how do you know about this?---It's been reported to me by the G and S employees that were out there during the process of attempting to negotiate an enterprise agreement with the management.
PN2354
I see. Is this all second hand? Is this all second handed information - you're telling us now that you haven't seen any of this, that it's been reported to you by people - - -?---Not at - - -
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2355
- - - unnamed people?---Not at Moranbah North because of the less than cordial relationship that exists at Moranbah North with the mine owner.
PN2356
So all of your evidence about what you say is going on at Moranbah North is hearsay?---Reported to me by G and S management and G and S employees.
PN2357
G and S management. Who, on behalf of G and S management?---Mr Crow.
PN2358
I see. He reported to you that's what they're doing?---That is what has come as part of the discussions during the attempt to do an enterprise agreement.
PN2359
I see?---And I can only assume that being a senior management employee that he was being honest with us.
PN2360
Well, you don't know any of this from your own knowledge?---No. From Moranbah North, no.
PN2361
So you're talking about - so when you talk about mine services being stone dusting, road works, pipe services extensions, mine pumping, supply panels, ballast drops, belt cleaning - that's all second hand. You've not seen any of that, and you've not witnessed any of that?---At Moranbah North, no.
PN2362
I see. Diesel machine repairs and breakdown service?---At Moranbah North.
PN2363
You've not seen that?---Yes, it's surface.
PN2364
You have seen that? On the surface? Well, you would expect that if they had the engineering company, that they would do diesel machine repairs or breakdown service?---Not all the time, no. A number of repairs are carried out underground.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2365
But that's within their normal core business, engineering and maintenance? Is that right? Diesel repairs and breakdown service is within the normal core business of G and S Engineering based in Mackay, isn't it?---That's not my view of what they originally were. That's normally the realm of permanent employees at the pit.
PN2366
Well, whatever other people, that's G and S's core business as well, isn't it?---Diesel machinery maintenance?
PN2367
Diesel machinery maintenance and breakdown service?---No, I don't believe so.
PN2368
You don't think so. All right. Pipe services - piping involves manufacturing of pipes and systems and spooling and things of that kind?---It may do, and it may not.
PN2369
Well, are you suggesting that the installation of pipe work is not a metal fabrication engineering function?---I can't be. Yes. I cannot be at time. Yes. It can be just a matter of fitting prefabricated pipes that are purchased from elsewhere.
PN2370
I see. And you say that's not an engineering or metal work function?---No.
PN2371
You've got "extensions". What do you call extensions, in the fifth - fourth line of the Moranbah North? You haven't seen any of this, I understand it, but you've put it down as extensions?---Yes.
PN2372
What do you mean by extensions?---Extensions being bolt extensions or extensions of pipe work into areas that have been developed out.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2373
So it's the modification of piping and the - or the modification of the conveyor system?---No, it's not modification.
PN2374
Extending it?---It's an extension. It's not - - -
PN2375
Well, that - - - ?---Modification is changing the design. Extension, you're just adding to it.
PN2376
Okay. Mine pumping involves the maintenance and operation of substantial pumps?---Mine pumping is usually just ensuring that the pumps are not submerged or, if they're submersibles, that they are in the water and, in fact, pumping the water out from areas that have been set up to gather it.
PN2377
Well, you're agreeing with me, it is the maintenance and operation of water pumps?---It's the operation of them.
PN2378
And the maintenance of them?---Not necessarily, no.
PN2379
Well, if you don't maintain them, they won't operate?---Well, a lot of the operations, they're purchased from or are on lease from a supplier, and when those pumps fail, they're returned to suppliers to be maintained.
PN2380
Well, it's the, I suggest to you, the maintenance and operation of a significant piece of mechanical electrical equipment?---It's mechanical. They're not electrical.
PN2381
But it's equipment?---It's equipment. It's a pump.
PN2382
It's a machine. "Supply panels"?---Yes.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2383
What's that?---Supplying panels is taking in such things as roof bolts, rib strapping, anything that's used in the process - during the mining process.
PN2384
And they're all fabricated metal items?---No. No.
PN2385
Which ones aren't fabricated metal items?---Rib bolts are nylon. Rib strapping is a plastic nylon. Stone dust, obviously, isn't metal. Road ballast isn't metal. Oils that are taken into the panel to top up machinery, that's supplying panels. Such things as potable water into areas.
PN2386
They take supplies in to do the work that they're been contracted to do?---They take supplies in to do work that they have done. They take supplies into areas where permanent mine employees are working to assist them.
PN2387
Belt cleaning, again, is maintenance of the conveyor system?---Yes.
PN2388
That's a mechanical - that's normally attributed to an engineering function, isn't it?---No. It's not.
PN2389
Under the Production and Engineering Award, is that production or engineering?---It's production.
PN2390
Production?---It's production.
PN2391
Belt maintenance is production?---The belt maintenance that you're taking about is production.
PN2392
I see?---There were not, in the previous award, people of an engineering background engaged to do that. It's the removal of coal fines, as I said earlier, from underneath the rollers, usually hosed or shovelled.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2393
And so you say that, even though - that if you don't have an engineering background then it's not mechanical engineering work?---I don't believe that it is.
PN2394
Weakened belt moves, I think we understand. Preparation for ventilation doors and stoppings, what do you say that is?---The preparation in - what are you looking for?
PN2395
Well, it's your evidence, Mr Pierce?---Yes.
PN2396
What do you mean by it?---The preparation is preparing areas - - -
PN2397
For - - - ?--- - - - for the installation of doors, putting up either brick work or other structures.
PN2398
And what are the doors made out of?---Depending on what the requirement is. Some of those doors are a material or - a fairly substantial material. Some of those areas are brick.
PN2399
What do you mean by substantial material?---Oh, I don't know what the name is for it, but - - -
PN2400
Is it a metal?---No, some of them aren't.
PN2401
Some of them aren't?---Some of the stoppings aren't. Some of the stoppings are brick.
PN2402
What about the doors?---The doors themselves, depending on where the doors are, some of those doors are metal.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2403
Yes. They're a fabricated metal item, aren't they, that engineering works tend to make?---Oh, I think probably they are.
PN2404
Yes. And stoppings are as well?---Are what?
PN2405
Metal?---No, they're not.
PN2406
Steel?---No, they're not.
PN2407
Aren't they?---Most stoppings are brick. Some of the stoppings are a composite material.
PN2408
Yes. And the - but the preparation for ventilation doors - again, you've heard all this, have you, from people, that that's the work that's done?---I've seen.
PN2409
You've seen?---I've seen, at other operations.
PN2410
But you've not seen it at Moranbah North?---As I said, we have difficulty at that operation because of the attitude of the owner.
PN2411
And the longwall support is a maintenance function?---Yes.
PN2412
And it's commonly done by mechanical engineering maintenance contractors?---No.
PN2413
It's an engineering maintenance function, isn't it?---No, I don't believe it is.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2414
I see. Well, I thought you said it was a maintenance function?---It's a maintenance function, but I don't accept that it's a mechanical engineering function, depending on what the maintenance is of the longwall. It depends on what it is. You can't group it into as tightly as what you're attempting to do.
PN2415
The longwall is a large and fairly sophisticated machine, isn't it?---It's large. It's deemed to be complex by some people.
PN2416
Yes. And it's a machine?---That's right.
PN2417
And this is maintenance of a machine?---Maintenance of the longwall equipment itself is an engineering function. Maintenance of the longwall may not be engineering.
PN2418
But in all probability is?---May be. May not be.
PN2419
I see. Well, are you drawing a distinction between the longwall machine and the longwall itself?---As I said, depending on what - in what context you're looking at the maintenance.
PN2420
But the maintenance function the G and S do in relation to the longwall is a mechanical engineering function, isn't it?---Well, that's what you're saying.
PN2421
Well, I'm just reading what you put here?---Yes.
PN2422
Longwall support, and you have North Goonyella belt and longwall maintenance, so they're mechanical engineering maintenance functions. I understood you, for example, to say in relation to the longwall support it involved maintenance of the chocks; is that right?---Maintenance of the chocks for longwall support?
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2423
Yes?---I would have said was - that maintenance of longwall equipment would involve maintenance of chocks.
PN2424
Yes?---Or maintenance of the shearer or whatever.
PN2425
Yes. And that's what you mean by longwall support?---No.
PN2426
Well, what do you mean by longwall support? Is there something else?---As I said, depending on what function you're looking at within the longwall itself. It depends on whether it's an engineering function or not as part of the support.
PN2427
Well, what else could it be if it's not an engineering function? You'd have to be maintaining the chocks, maintaining the longwall machine itself. What else could you be doing?---There are a number of functions on the longwall that require maintenance that can be as simple as hosing off and clearing the flight bars of the AFC chain, which are not an engineering function.
PN2428
Well, it's to do with ensuring that the machine operates properly and well?---That's right.
PN2429
Yes. And you say that's not a maintenance or engineering function?---That is a maintenance function.
PN2430
Yes?---As part of the operation of the longwall.
PN2431
All right. Well, can I suggest to you that, with the exception of what you say is the driveage that's done, and sometimes going into coal, you say, that essentially everything you've spoken about here is a maintenance and engineering function that G and S have been engaged in here?---You can suggest that, but I don't accept that.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2432
And that the incidents that you've referred to where there has been some driveage undertaken, that that work is - driveage work of that kind, that is work the purpose of which is not to recover coal but rather to place tunnels, etcetera, to areas where coal can be productively recovered - - - ?---No. That's - - -
PN2433
- - - that that driveage work has always been considered to be civil engineering work and outside the coal industry?---No. That's not correct, as I've explained several times.
PN2434
You say that your view of it is that the initial drift, of itself, is considered - is usually considered to be civil engineering and outside the coal mining industry, but once the mine has been established, any other driveage work that's done, you say, is considered to be within the coal mining industry?---Once coal is reached - - -
PN2435
Yes?--- - - - that it's industry.
PN2436
All right. Now, do you have any figures at all on how much of this sort of work has been done, over what period of time, and how many employees are involved in the development drives that you've talked about that you say have occurred?---No, not with me. No.
PN2437
Any coal that is cut in relation to a job is not economically one, is it?---Yes.
PN2438
You can say that as a bald statement?---Any coal that's cut is part of drivage is figured as part of the mine plan for coal that they will win and sell.
PN2439
But it's not economical to do that. The purpose - that is for the purpose of the drivage, is it? It's not production work - - - ?---Yes, it is.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2440
- - - which is economical?---It is and if you have a look the majority of coal mines count that as part of their production numbers.
PN2441
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Herbert, would it be a convenient time to have morning tea?
PN2442
MR HERBERT: Yes.
PN2443
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. We will go off the record for a short minute, thank you.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.37am]
RESUMED [12.08pm]
PN2444
MR HERBERT: Mr Pierce, could I take you to paragraph 15 of your statement, please? You talk about 24 employees permanently working on Curragh open-cut in Queensland, you say, who perform production and engineering work. Again, what do you characterise as production work?---With Curragh, some of the non-engineering type work, maintenance work around the plant, the hosing, the general work that doesn't require a trade background to perform.
PN2445
So your definition of production, then, so that we understand your evidence, is maintenance type work which doesn't require a trade or engineering background?---Or - any work that, you know, production work is also removal of - in an open-cut - removal of overburden, removal of coal from the pit and transporting it.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2446
But you're not suggesting G and S does removal of overburden?---At Curragh, no.
PN2447
In an open-cut environment, do you?---No.
PN2448
All right. So that we understand what you mean by production, you are not suggesting at Curragh that they do any digging of coal, removal of overburden or anything of that kind?---No.
PN2449
Well, the first dot point you have there in paragraph 15, "The rostered coal preparation plan performing planned and unplanned maintenance", and again that is mechanical engineering type work, is it not?---That's engineering work.
PN2450
Yes. And you then refer to the coal prep plant produces reject material which must be transported back out across the mine site:
PN2451
Operating the reject truck has been a coal mining industry work at Curragh. It is not only performed by direct employees but G and S employees at the prep plant have been trained up to and do this work.
PN2452
Have you ever seen a G and S employee driving the reject truck?---No.
PN2453
Can I suggest because they don't. They do not perform that work?---You can suggest it but what's been suggested to me is contrary to that.
PN2454
Well, again, do you have a hearsay - are you relying there on a hearsay observation by some unnamed person that G and S employees do that work?---I'm relying on - on information that was passed to me by a permanent employee of Curragh mine, yes.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2455
Permanent employee of Curragh mine, whom you have not chosen to name, has suggested to you that a G and S employee actually does that work? Is that right?---Has not suggested it, has informed me that that has been the case on occasions, yes.
PN2456
Well, I will make it clear to you that G and S do not now and have not done that work, that is, driving of the reject truck at Curragh?---Well, that's - that's your information. My information is different to that.
PN2457
All right. And so your information is, again, second-hand from an unnamed Curragh employee?---My information is second-hand from a Curragh employee that I know, yes.
PN2458
Could be wrong?---I would suggest not, no. He's been at the mine for a number of years.
PN2459
All right. Now, you then - the next dot point, "G and S have taken over field maintenance and bucket shops. The jobs that are done are break down and scheduled maintenance of drag lines, bucket and jewellery repair work". Is that right?---That's correct.
PN2460
All of which is metal fabrication, maintenance, engineering type work?---It's a maintenance function, yes.
PN2461
Yes - or fabrication type work or repair work - - - ?---Some of it is.
PN2462
- - - of a metal - - - ?---Yes.
PN2463
- - - nature, is that right?---That's correct.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2464
And then:
PN2465
Shut down maintenance at the Curragh coal prep plant. The plant is shut down and metal work, maintenance, engineering work is done there -
PN2466
when it's shut down?---Yes.
PN2467
In paragraph 16:
PN2468
...and has a maintenance contract for form work which is part of the continuous process of coal mining at Collinsville where it has fitters and trades assistants on permanent rosters.
PN2469
The fitters and trades assistants do mechanical engineering, metal work, maintenance. Is that right?---Yes.
PN2470
And metal fabrication work?---That's right.
PN2471
You say that that is part of the continuous process of coal mining?---Yes.
PN2472
Is that because you say that anything that contributes to the coal being extracted from the mine site is part of the continuous process?---That's correct.
PN2473
All right. And, therefore, anyone who works on a machine that transports coal is themselves involved in the continuous process of coal mining. Is that how we understand your evidence?---If it's part of the process on the mine site, yes.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2474
All right. Now, you say you're also aware G and S has a maintenance contract to perform work which is part of the continuous process of coal mining at ..... riverside and South Walker Creek coal preparation plant. And again, you say it's part of the continuous process of coal mining because they are maintaining part of the plant through which the coal passes?---Which is part of the process of the coal - winning the coal to get it to - to export, yes.
PN2475
But, again, at none of those mines - I'll make it clear - you've mentioned there and on that page, you've mentioned Curragh, Collinsville, ..... riverside and South Walker Creek - at none of those mines does G and S - is G and S involved in any level in the actual removal of overburden or the cutting or transport of coal?---With the exception of my - my information at Curragh with regards to the reject truck, no, that's correct.
PN2476
So there's only the observation, you say, from your unnamed informant on the site to the effect that G and S employees have been trained up to do the work, and do the work. Other than that, there is no suggestion of G and S being involved in any form of coal production at any of the open-cut mines you've named?---That's correct.
PN2477
They're strictly confined to maintenance engineering type works. Whether they need a trade background or not, it is all maintenance and engineering work?---As part of the whole mining process, yes.
PN2478
I see. Now, can I take you to paragraph 21. Do you have a degree of -Mr Lambley yesterday was - has in fact, as I understand it, worked in the explosives area himself in the past. Do you have any familiarity with the explosives, the whole process of the manufacture and application of explosives?---Only from my time supplying my - my maintenance background to the bull gang at Saraji mine.
PN2479
So it's a peripheral involvement in the actual blasting process; is that right?---That's correct.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2480
You have not seen at any of the mines with which you've had any contact - you've not seen Dyno involved at any point in the drilling of the blast holes?---No.
PN2481
You have seen, as I understand it, Dyno transporting the constituent parts of the explosive on to the site?---Yes.
PN2482
And they store them in designated magazine areas on some of these sites?---At some of them.
PN2483
Some of the other sites the product comes from a depot or a storage area off site?---That's correct.
PN2484
So there is no invariable rule that the product is necessarily stored on the mining lease in each occasion?---No, not since they had a failure with their bulk bins.
PN2485
And where was that?---At most of the BMA sites.
PN2486
So you've seen the material brought on site. You've also seen the material - the manufacturing process to produce an explosive, you understand, requires the combination of fuel oil with AMFO in the case of dry mix?---Yes, nitro prill.
PN2487
Yes; and you understand that that process occurs at the last possible minute before the explosive was actually put in the ground?---That's correct.
PN2488
But it's part of the manufacturing process necessary to create an explosive?---Yes.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2489
And that Dyno, as you understand it, is contracted to provide explosives, not the constituent parts of explosives but an actual volatile explosive?---In some cases. In some cases they only provide product.
PN2490
Yes. You're aware of the situation at Blackwater? They only provide - in the case of the dry mix, leaving aside the emulsion, they only provide the product?---Given the new arrangements at Blackwater - the recent arrangements.
PN2491
Now you've mentioned in more recent - the third last line in paragraph 21 in the things that you've observed, you said:
PN2492
...in more recent times fire the shots and perform some secondary blasting on site.
PN2493
Now that is a fairly recent development, that Dyno has actually been asked by some of their customers to actually detonate the product they provide? Isn't that right? Isn't that a recent development on mine sites?---Yes.
PN2494
And when, in your experiences, has something like that evolved?---Within the last two to three years.
PN2495
Prior to that it was done by whom?---Prior to that it was done by the permanent mine employees in the bull gang.
PN2496
Yes. And they plan the shot, they plan the blast, they drill the holes?---No, no. The mine - the mine specific had a drill and blast engineer who would plan the shot. The drillers would drill the shot and then the bull gang would be responsible for loading, charging and firing of the shot.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2497
And the loading and the charging involved again completing the manufacturing process on site by mixing the prill and the fuel oil?---Only of recent times. There was - there were times when nitro prill was the main product. There was a different process but it was done on site by the mine employees.
PN2498
So the final mixing process, if there was one, to make an actual explosive as opposed to inert substances was actually done as close to the hole as possible but by mine employees?---That's correct.
PN2499
Is that what you're saying?---Yes.
PN2500
Right. So that the part of the manufacturing process was actually done by the miner - by the mining company rather than by the manufacturer of the product?---Yes, yes.
PN2501
Now you talk about secondary blasting. What are you referring to by way of some secondary blasting done by Dyno?---Secondary blasting, blasting in areas that had been previously blasted where, for one reason or another, the pattern hadn't properly fired. Secondary blasting could also be in areas of - where the decision was made after the over-burden was removed that the coal needed to be blasted, for reasons where it was too hard or there was too big a band of parting or inter-burden in there.
PN2502
In the first instance you mentioned it's really repairing a blast that didn't quite do the job, doing it again in part; and the second is that you mentioned it's a situation where the coal seam itself needs to be fractured to make it easier to get at?---That's right.
PN2503
But all of those instances, the initial blast is to loosen up the over-burden and then those, what you call, the secondary blasts, the process is more or less the same, isn't it?---In what way?
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2504
Well, one drills a hole, puts explosive and detonators into the hole and then - - - ?---Yes, you charge and fire a shot.
PN2505
Charge it, get a long way away and fire it? It's an identical process whether it's primary or secondary blasting, isn't it?---That's correct.
PN2506
So that there is no distinction to be drawn between the primary and secondary blasting in relation to the activities of Dyno, for example? It's all the same process? If they're involved in delivering the product to the site, they deliver the product to whichever site it is requires the job to be done?---And provide it to complete the mining process; yes.
PN2507
Well, again, the shot is planned by the mine and the mining services people?---On a lot of occasions. On a lot of occasions - in some occasions at some of the pits there is discussion with explosive suppliers with regards to the shot, how they intend to plan it, and what product has got to be - what product should be supplied depending on the conditions, so that it's not just a matter of saying, well, we're going to drop some holes down, bring some bomb over and we'll put it in.
PN2508
But that's a product support service that the explosives people provide, isn't it?---It's a planning phase of the service.
PN2509
But it's supporting the product that they're selling?---Well, I would suggest that it's providing information to ensure that the mining process is done once and once only and done correctly.
PN2510
Providing information to ensure that the product they're selling is used effectively?---Or that the mining process is correct for the product that they're supplying more correctly.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2511
And that the information that you're aware of that is supplied in that situation, is information designed to ensure that the product is used effectively and cost effectively?---That's right.
PN2512
And it's similar in a sense to having the tyre manufacturer come out to discuss the question of what is an appropriate form of tyre to use on a particular type of application on a vehicle?---I'd say no.
PN2513
Why would you say no, Mr Pierce?---Because there is a lot more emphasis put on getting the process of blasting right, and it's a lot more critical to the whole mining process than whether you run a winter tread pattern or a wet tread pattern on a truck.
PN2514
I see. But that's because of the nature of what Dyno sells? Tyres don't normally blow up but - - - ?---Well, they do.
PN2515
But the whole focus in your experience from what you've seen on the Dyno operation is the sale of a product and the provision of some ancillary services that support the sale of the product?---They provide a product and they also provide - on a number of places they provide labour to assist in the supply of that product.
PN2516
That's right, to assist in the supply, the transport of the product, to complete the manufacture of the product to turn it into an actual explosive, and in some cases the actual detonation of - in very limited cases, the actual detonation of the product they've supplied?---Charging of holes which is all part of the process of - - -
PN2517
All part of the process?---- - - winning of coal.
PN2518
All part of the process of providing the explosive material?---Which is a part of the process of winning of coal, which is further than just supplying it.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR HERBERT
PN2519
They don't do anything outside the scope of the provision of explosives and ensuring the explosives are used correctly, do they?---No.
PN2520
Thank you. I have nothing further, your Honour.
PN2521
PN2522
MR PALMER: Yes, you've been in the coal industry for a long time?---Yes.
PN2523
How many years?---As a permanent employee at a coal mine, a touch over 18 years; as a contractor prior to that, approximately two; and then a bit over three years as a district official.
PN2524
Have you worked in any other process industries or manufacturing industries?---Yes, I served my apprenticeship at Mount Isa Mines in Mount Isa at a copper mine.
PN2525
And you're an auto-electrician by trade?---That's correct.
PN2526
And you have some knowledge of maintenance theories and - - -?---Yes.
PN2527
- - - science, if that's the right word?---Well, I don't know about science.
PN2528
Yes. You're active in the field. I see you work in close cooperation with Mr Lambley, and he with you?---That's correct.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2529
You've got a good understanding of industrial relations realities and, indeed, the form of the legislation?---Well, some of the employers might question that but - - -
PN2530
Yes?--- - - - I believe that I do.
PN2531
And you're no stranger to this place?---I've been here a few times.
PN2532
Yes. No stranger at all. And I'd just like to take you through to paragraph 6 of your statement. You say 1995 you had some difficulties with the very issues that you're facing today, and that those matters, apparently, were taken to the Commission, and you made a remark in your statement that you were unable to get them dealt with in the same way that you used to have them dealt with in the Coal Industry Tribunal, so would you like to develop that? I wasn't quite understanding what you meant by that?---The Coal Industry Tribunal was a lot less formal affair, and we were able to - both parties used to take the issues there, and it was really a process of, I suppose, conciliation more than arbitration, but at the end of the day, if the parties weren't able to meet, there was an arbitrated outcome which - - -
PN2533
But doesn't that happen in the Commission - - -?---Yes, which - which was a lot less formalised, I supposed.
PN2534
This is hardly an imposing or formal situation you're faced with today?---Oh, it depends if you're sitting here or on your side.
PN2535
I mean, isn't it the fact - the fact of the matter, it was quite a cosy little club, wasn't it?---No, I don't believe it was.
PN2536
Yes. All right. Well, we'll let that go. Now, how much do you know about Silcar?---My knowledge of Silcar is really what I've gleaned from reports that have been given to me.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2537
Yes. Now, have you had any discussions with Silcar about this matter or - - -?---No.
PN2538
- - - about negotiating an agreement?---No.
PN2539
Did you have any discussions with them about the log of claims that you served on them?---No.
PN2540
Did you have any discussions with employees of Silcar about the log of claims before you served it?---No.
PN2541
No. Okay. All right. Well, we come through, then, to the actual observations that you've made. You made some observations in paragraph 18 about Silcar in the Latrobe Valley?---Yes.
PN2542
Well, you might just enlighten us; why did you make those observations?---Those are made out of discussions with Luke Van De Meulen, who gave several detailed reports to meetings that I was at - - -
PN2543
Yes?--- - - - as well as other national officials.
PN2544
And is there common cause? Was the CFMEU Mining and Energy Division in the Latrobe Valley - are they trying to make their maintenance workers part of the power industry?---Oh, that would be a question you'd have to ask those people.
PN2545
Yes. No, I just wondered why you put it in there. Did Luke tell you - Luke Van Der Meulen, your Honour, is the - - -
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2546
THE WITNESS: District President.
PN2547
MR PALMER: - - - Secretary of the division of the branch - - -
PN2548
THE WITNESS: I think he's the - - -
PN2549
MR PALMER: - - - of the Mining and Energy Division in the Latrobe Valley.
PN2550
THE WITNESS: No, I think he's the President.
PN2551
MR PALMER: President, I'm sorry. Did you have any discussions with Luke about how they're structured down there?---Only the discussions where he's given reports to meetings that I've been present at.
PN2552
Yes?---As you'd understand, Luke has been very busy, and we've had our own bush fires up our end of the - - -
PN2553
Yes?--- - - - the country to try and deal with.
PN2554
You know that Silcar provides the total maintenance function to the mine at Yallourn?---I understand that there is some discussion around what's happening there.
PN2555
And do you know the structure of maintenance in the power station that the Mining and Energy is involved in?---Not in any detail, no.
PN2556
No. Did Luke talk to you at all about an alliance - a maintenance alliance?---Like I said, we've - the discussions that have been held of where he's been given reports and very little detail of in-depth conversations.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2557
I presume that Luke has told you that they're very happy with the arrangements down there?---Oh, he's made comments of a number of things.
PN2558
Yes?---If I kept track of all of them, I'd - I'd have to say that - - -
PN2559
Right. Now, in your statement, you've made a number of assertions, and when you were led, you talked about the preferred contractor agreement, but again, that's mainly - it's your perception of what happens, isn't it?---No, it's - it's what I've seen happen on the ground as an employee of BMA.
PN2560
Yes, what you've perceived to see happening, but - - -?---No, well - - -
PN2561
- - - I mean, you don't really know the commercial arrangement, say, between Silcar and the client, do you?---Well, unless - unless the management of BMA are not honest - and that could be challenged, I suppose - then the information that I'm aware of is what has been put to us over a number of years through negotiations with the company - - -
PN2562
By BMA?---By BMA senior representatives, and some of those being, you know, the likes of Mr Gazard and others at his level.
PN2563
Yes. All right. Now, if you look back over your career in the industry do you ever remember a time when there were no maintenance contractors in the industry?---No.
PN2564
No. So it's always been a feature?---Yes.
PN2565
Yes. A certain amount of maintenance has been out-sourced to maintenance contractors?---A very limited amount.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2566
Well - - - ?---I would suggest - if you're talking about out-sourced by being off site then, no, that's only a relatively new function. The function of contractors prior to that was - was the Christmas/August type shut-downs were a feature of the industry prior to seven day production.
PN2567
Absolutely. Now, I see that you've got a maintenance background yourself. You're a tradesman. What do you say about, looking back over the history of maintenance, how things have changed in the coal industry?---Maintenance function is still performed. Majority of it is still performed the same way it was, but there - in some cases there are non-permanent mine employees perform that function.
PN2568
Well, isn't it the case that in the earlier days - and it's been a progressive change - in the earlier days extended shut-downs were a feature of the industry?---No, as I said there was Christmas - Christmas and August shut-downs or Easter, Christmas shut-downs twice a year.
PN2569
Twice a year, yes. For what duration?---Usually - usually a week or two weeks. The Easter shut-down was a week. The Christmas shut-down was two weeks and major plant repairs were done during that time.
PN2570
And what happens now?---It tends to be a rolling target across the - across the year.
PN2571
All right. So the way that maintenance is conducted has changed. Do you know what the driver for that is?---I could be cynical but the - the main move was a move by the companies in 1988 when they won the right for 24 hour, seven day continuous production. What happened then was they found they no longer had the ability to perform the maintenance as it was previously performed on the weekends and back-shifts by their employees.
PN2572
Now, if we go to the structure. Take the wash plant. It seems there's been a fair bit of focus. Were you on the inspections last week?---No, I wasn't.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2573
No. There was an inspection of the wash plant at Gregory. To your knowledge on the wash plants, and I particularly focus on that one because it's been the subject of discussion, are there permanent industry employed maintainers in the plant?---In the major of wash plants now those people no longer exist. They've been either absorbed within the workforce elsewhere or their function has been contracted out.
PN2574
Well, that's not quite right, is it, because at Gregory my understanding is that there were six permanent maintainers on the mine staff allocated to the wash plant?---Oh, there may be at Gregory. Speaking from my experience at my own pit where the maintenance function - those people were lost to the operation.
PN2575
All right. Well, let's turn to the structure of production and engineering in the industry. Let me help you with this, it will be quicker. Will you concede that there are three groups of people? The first group of people are the production workers who actually win the coal and process it. A group of people - the miners. Then there's a group of maintainers who are employed by the mine operators and they are integrated with the production workers in the system. You agree with that?---Yes.
PN2576
And there's a third group, and that's the group that Silcar is involved with, who provide a maintenance service?---Yes.
PN2577
Yes, all right. So the proposition that we advance is this. And I would like you to comment on it; that with the changed science of maintenance which does away with the extended shut-down and works more on predication of failure rather than having crews sitting around waiting for breakdowns to occur, that it's uneconomical for the owner/operators to have crews on hand to deal with breakdowns because - and I think you will agree with me - the reliability of equipment has improved dramatically over the years?---Oh, some of it's improved. I wouldn't suggest that it's dramatically.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2578
Yes, but improved maintenance. So the whole reason, the driver for out-sourcing maintenance, comes from a change of science in maintenance, the conversion to predication and maintenance - breakdown prevention rather than breakdown attention?---I've got to say that's not my experience in the industry.
PN2579
Okay.
PN2580
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you mean by "predication"?
PN2581
MR PALMER: I'm sorry, madam?
PN2582
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you mean by "predication"?
PN2583
MR PALMER: Most modern maintenance programs now are based on a scientific analysis of equipment performance over an extended period of time.
PN2584
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I just meant the word "predication".
PN2585
MR PALMER: Predication.
PN2586
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you mean a prediction of it?
PN2587
MR PALMER: The prediction of it. So where perhaps a piece of equipment would be allowed to run to failure and then in-house stand-by people would come in and fix it, now that is maintained prior to its predicated breakdown so that no time is lost. And that's where the third level of maintainers comes in.
PN2588
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I understand your point. So it's anticipating a predicted date of failure and repairing prior to that anticipated date.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2589
MR PALMER: Yes.
PN2590
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN2591
MR PALMER: And just me take the one example. I'm not going to keep you much longer. There's a certain amount of work that requires fabrication off site. Now, I'll give you a recent example - the coal profilers for the rail trucks. If you take an engineering company like Silcar, it may get - and indeed in this case it did get - a contract to fabricate those profilers off site and as part of the package contained in the contract, they brought those profilers onto site and fitted them. Do you say that's part of mining work?---I believe that any part of modification or maintenance of mining equipment is part of the complete mining process, so it's part of the mining process, yes.
PN2592
Yes. Are you familiar with the term "jump-up provision"?---No.
PN2593
You're not familiar with it. Are you familiar with the term "replacement labour"?---Replacement labour as in if someone's away you pick up someone from a labour hire company?
PN2594
That sort of an arrangement?---I'm aware of it.
PN2595
That happens from time to time?---It happens on a fairly regular basis.
PN2596
On a fairly regular basis?---Throughout the industry now.
PN2597
And is it the case that the sites that you service, that where that happens mining industry terms and conditions are applied?---Not all the time. It would depend on how those people are engaged.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2598
So your answer is if there's replacement labour, clear cut replacement labour, sometimes they're paid mining conditions and sometimes they're not?---If it's clear cut?
PN2599
If it's clear cut?---If it's clear cut, then the person they replace, they pick up the terms and conditions of that person.
PN2600
Yes, I have no further questions, your Honour.
PN2601
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Pierce, in paragraph 15, in the second dot point, you refer to "as well as bucket and jewellery repairs". I don't want to reveal my ignorance here but what do you mean by jewellery in that?---Jewellery repairs are the spreader bar and the chains and the hit shackles that fix the bucket to the dragline ropes. It's called jewellery.
PN2602
It's different from my usual definition. And what is an overcast exactly?---An overcast is you cut - how do you explain it
PN2603
Now you know my problem?---Yes. If you've got two roadways and you've got an interconnecting road between the two main - - -
PN2604
Underground?---Yes, underground. You've got two drive headings. You've got an interconnecting roadway.
PN2605
Yes?---And when you move the mining process it's going to disturb the ventilation that normally goes through there. There will be an area cut out of the roof. Usually - well, depending on how much volume you've got to get through, there will be an area up to six foot cut through. It will be sealed at the bottom so that you can continue to use that roadway but you'll get a ventilation, an undisturbed ventilation flow to the new area of the mine, and it's just called an overcast because it's cut out of the roof of the mine.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE XXN MR PALMER
PN2606
And is a tunnel cut between the overcast and the prior ventilation or is it just - - -?---It's usually - yes, your ventilation will come down your drift and it will be through - the engineer's plan the ventilation to be able to service the areas of the mine and some of that ventilation flow is controlled by stoppings and seals but to get it to flow from one area to another where you need to do mining to have it flow into a new area permanently, you cut an overcast so that you can continue to have that airflow through there but not disturb the other areas of the operation.
PN2607
PN2608
MS GRAY: Mr Pierce, I'll start with two questions in re-examination as a result of Mr Palmer's cross-examination. You've agreed that there are three types of work being done at coal mines: one being production, one being maintenance which is integrated with production work and one being the provision of a maintenance service. Now, does the provision of a maintenance service fall inside or outside the process of coal mining?---In my view it's in the process because they become an integral part of the maintenance process of the operation.
PN2609
And is there any work in terms of repairing or maintaining coal mining equipment which you would say falls outside the process of coal mining?---If there was - I don't know, I suppose a complete body fabrication that was done off site.
PN2610
So work on that equipment that was done off site, major work done off site you would regard as outside the coal mining process?---It's not coal - yes, it's not the process.
**** STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE RXN MS GRAY
PN2611
Now, in respect to your cross-examination by Mr Herbert, you were given a couple of examples of supply of product to a mine site. There was the example of course of Dyno and other explosives manufacturers supplying to coal mines and then there was an example of tyres being supplied. When would you say that the supply of a product becomes part of the process of mining and when is it outside the process of mining?---Probably to use those two examples, the tyre manufacturer comes along and delivers the tyres. They sit in the warehouse. The mine employees then put them into the production process by fitting them to the vehicles. With the product supplied by Dyno, it's not delivered to a storage area and then used by the mine employees. In my experience they take it down and they become a part of the integral part of the mining process by taking it onto the shot loading and in some cases assisting to fire.
PN2612
And if they didn't do the shotfiring or assist in the firing, would you still regard that down the hole delivery as part of the process of mining?---Yes.
PN2613
Nothing further, thank you, your Honour.
PN2614
PN2615
MR HERBERT: Your Honour, could I indicate, because of the large volume of new material that's come from Mr Pierce today, which wasn't put to Mr Smith when he was here yesterday, and the issue was raised - "Does your company engaged in mining?" answer, "No." - the matter was left at that, effectively, and there was some new material put. Could I seek to - I'll need to take some further instructions in relation to these issues - but it may be necessary to prepare a short rebuttal evidence from Mr Smith in relation to matters, and you've heard that I've put some things to Mr Pierce and said, they simply don't happen and they're not true, etcetera.
PN2616
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. The sender of the case - it might have been better, in fact, to have heard from the union witnesses first.
PN2617
MR HERBERT: Well, yes. I anticipated that if Mr Pierce was in possession of information of that kind, that when Mr Smith said categorically that he doesn't - his company doesn't engage in coal mining activities, that something of that order might have been put to him to give him an opportunity to respond - it wasn't, and the difficulty with that - that's raised by that now is it's necessary for me to get some further instructions about a whole raft of things that he put.
PN2618
Now, I had sufficient instructions for the purposes of putting things in cross-examination but the detail of that, it may well be, and, again, subject to final instructions, that it will be necessary for me to prepare some short rebuttal evidence in relation to those issues. Now if we do that, and, again, I've only got preliminary instructions about that, then the mechanics of it might be that we do that between now and the weekend and then we appear in the proceedings in Sydney on Monday in relation to that issue. I was probably going to be in Sydney on Monday anyway.
PN2619
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No one is - there is also consideration - matters put about Mr Crow.
PN2620
MR HERBERT: Yes.
PN2621
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The situation is that we've got employer witnesses on Monday from - I haven't got my diary here - I had that written down in my diary. I can't recall what the order is.
PN2622
MR HERBERT: But Mr Smith should be in a position to be able to answer questions as to whether that - hear some of that evidence given by Mr Pierce which is second and third hand from what are said to be observations made by unnamed employees on sites. An amount of that, as you've heard, I've put it to Mr Pierce it just isn't true, and Mr Smith should be in a position to say one way or the other as to what is true and what isn't, and to explain, if necessary, some of that evidence that has been given. But I wanted at this stage to reserve the right to do so. As I say, I need to take some detailed instructions about what we're going to do, but if we do, it may be convenient to deal with that matter on Monday.
PN2623
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Yes, Ms Gray?
PN2624
MS GRAY: Your Honour, firstly, I'd just like to say that Mr Pierce's evidence hasn't gone outside the witness statement which Mr Herbert has had since 1 September. Coal cutting is clearly there and all it was was simply further details and explanations of terms which are very clear to the union, and certainly would have been clear to G and S as well.
PN2625
Now in terms of me not putting things to Mr Smith, this evidence of the union was in reply. Mr Smith gave his evidence. His material was in. We gave evidence or an outline of evidence in reply, and in respect to that, that was certainly in Mr Herbert's possession and Mr Smith would have been made aware of it just as our witnesses were being made aware of the company evidence. But what is clear in this case, your Honour, is that what is regarded as coal mining work by the union is very different to what is regarded as coal mining work by G and S witnesses or Dyno witnesses.
PN2626
And to the level that somebody denies that they are doing coal mining work, I don't think that it's fair or reasonable to criticise myself or the union for not continuing to go into details of the work that is being done with the company witness when they simply and categorically deny that they are doing coal mining. Now, we say that all of this work that is being done by G and S on coal mines is coal mining work.
PN2627
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I know that.
PN2628
MS GRAY: They say it isn't.
PN2629
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I understand that, too. Are you opposing him calling this evidence in reply on Monday? Is that your point?
PN2630
MS GRAY: Well, our evidence was in reply, your Honour.
PN2631
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I know. Are you opposing him calling it on Monday?
PN2632
MS GRAY: Yes, we think it's inappropriate, your Honour. We think that the evidence that has been run is the evidence that should be relied on by the parties.
PN2633
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, my interest here is obtaining as much information as possible to make my own decision about those issues, and I don't think it's inappropriate. If he wants to call that evidence on Monday I intend to allow him to.
PN2634
MS GRAY: Well, in that case, your Honour, it may be necessary for us to have Mr Pierce there as well, and, of course, that means we've got to see if he is available and bring him down.
PN2635
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, if he's not I'll make some other arrangement to allow you that opportunity. I don't want to get involved in too much tag team of backwards and forwards about this but, at the end of the day, I want to know the answers to some of those factual issues or at least have enough material before me to decide what I think is the answer on those factual issues. If that means that some of this has been unfortunately efficient, well, that's where we are.
PN2636
MS GRAY: Okay, your Honour, thank you.
PN2637
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Next witness?
PN2638
MS GRAY: We'd like to call Mr Logovik.
PN2639
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Does anybody object if we proceed straight ahead?
PN2640
MR HERBERT: No, your Honour.
PN2641
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It isn't too inconvenient? Anyone wants to take a short break?
PN2642
THE COMMISSION: Please state your full name and address.
PN2643
MR LOGOVIK: Yes, Stephen Logovik, 5 Jerilo Place, Emerald, Queensland.
PN2644
MS GRAY: Mr Logovik, have you prepared a witness statement in this matter?---Yes, I have.
PN2645
And do you have a copy of it with you?---Yes.
PN2646
Do you need to make any corrections to it?---Yes, there's a few changes there.
PN2647
Could you do that now?---Now in paragraph 5, the second line down, we had "maintenance contract" there. Change it to "maintenance work".
PN2648
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That should be "maintenance work on site"?---Yes, I think so. Yes, "maintenance work on site".
PN2649
Yes?---And paragraph 15, just a spelling mistake there in the "Maintenance and Miner Construction Agreement. It's about - just under half-way down the page. It has just got "e" and it should have been an "or".
PN2650
MS GRAY: So "miner" is spelt m-i-n-e-r, and it needs to be corrected to m-i-n-o-r?---Yes. And the first line of paragraph 16 it says, "At Gregory mine site only over-burden" and it had "inter-burden blasting". Just remove that "inter-burden". We don't blast the coal out there.
PN2651
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So it should read, "At Gregory mine site only over-burden blasting is done"?---Yes, that's correct. Paragraph 19, the third line from the bottom, just the same thing there. Just get rid of the "inter-burden".
PN2652
So it should read, "to over-burden removal"?---That's correct. The same paragraph next page, third line down should read, "Computers design the drill pattern", and remove "do so as well as for the blast calculations, etcetera".
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XN MS GRAY
PN2653
So, "Computers design the drill pattern"?---Yes, and then full stop. Forget the next six or seven words there up to "etcetera".
PN2654
So, "And computers design the drill pattern" full stop?---Yes.
PN2655
New sentence, "Gregory and Crinum"?---That's correct. About seven lines down it has got, "Drill which is operated by direct" should add "employees" after the "direct".
PN2656
So insert "employees"? Yes?---Yes, thanks. Same page about - on the third last line there is a spelling mistake on "miner" on the "miner construction" there. It should have been "or".
PN2657
M-i-n-o-r?---Yes. Other than that, that's correct.
PN2658
MS GRAY: So with those corrections you say that your witness statement is true and correct as at 1 September?---To the best of my knowledge, yes.
PN2659
I would like to mark that statement, thank you, your Honour.
PN2660
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XN MS GRAY
PN2661
MS GRAY: Does it require any updating since 1 September, Mr Logovik?---Yes, it does. Since I've made that statement, there has been a bit of a split with Silcar. A couple of their senior people in it have formed another company called BDI, and the majority of the Silcar people that worked Gregory mine have gone and worked for them. The people that didn't go across, that work for Silcar, a lot of those people were then sent to Blackwater. The only people that BDI didn't pick up was the diesel fitters and electricians, so they're still employed by Silcar, working at Gregory mine.
PN2662
So you've referred to that in paragraph 13 on 1 September, but what you're saying is that that has continued and increased?---Yes, it has.
PN2663
Mr Logovik, those Silcar and now BDI employees, is it your evidence that they're performing maintenance as part of the mining process at Gregory?---Yes, they're still doing the same tasks. The only difference is they're now working for a different company.
PN2664
And where would you say the process of open-cut coal mining begins and ends at Gregory?---At Gregory, when they remove the overburden, the topsoil, sorry, they remove the topsoil, all the way down to when they put it on the train. Anything in between is all part of the process, and anybody that works in that process is bound by the Coal Mining Act, and the Coal Mining Act states that those people should have certain things. One of them is Coal Board medicals, X-rays. Our senior site executive, he won't let any contractor work on the mine site unless they've had those requirements - they've had their Coal Board medicals, etcetera. So he classifies them as mine workers.
PN2665
So when you say from the removal of overburden, do you include the removal of overburden in the process, or is that excluded?---No, that's all part of the process.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XN MS GRAY
PN2666
And when we came out on inspections to Gregory with the Commission, we went around and there were - we saw that process or the process of mining at Gregory; can you briefly describe for us, within that route that we did on the inspection, where direct employees are doing the work, and where contractor employees were doing the work which you say is all part of the process of coal mining at Gregory?---Yes, after we had our familiarisation, we watched a quick video. The contractors - there was quite a lot of contractors actually used in the promotional video, like, the boilermaker that was seen welding and grinding, he was a Silcar employee at that time. We then went and had a look at the engineer's computer where Dyno's engineers actually use that and put - you know, design their patents and all that sort of stuff and that's then used by the surveyors, our engineers, and put it into use. We then went down to the Gregory end of the overland conveyor. When we went down there, there was one Gregory employee operating a dozer. I also noticed there were two contractors changing idlers on the Gregory end of the overlander. We proceeded to go down to the other end, the Crinum end. There was about four to six contractors down there, doing some repairs to the rotary breaker screen area. When we left there, we went over to the drill, the drill patent where Dyno personnel were loading the shot, putting all the explosives in, back-filling the holes. They had it all flagged out. We then progressed the drill that we have out there which was a down day. We noticed about 10 to a dozen people sitting on the - working on it. We only had about three of our people. We had one foreman there who was more or less overseeing the project, just checking how things were going. Maintenance-wise, we only ever have one fitter on my crew, and on down days, he just goes out and does the regular service, you know, changes oil filters. He's got a check sheet. All the rest of the repairs are done by contractors. We travelled down to the dragline which is run by our people. Virtually, once we get on to the haul road, there's only six Gregory mine employees involved in that whole process. All the rest are contractors. Even when we were down the dragline, I noticed there was a contractor up on the roof doing some sort of repairs. We then called in to the Dyno compound where they store their explosives, had a look where they keep the detonators and all that sort of stuff. We travelled up to the washplant. It was down because of electrical failure that night. I think it got struck by lightning, but what happened - it blew up one of the motors to one of our feed conveyors. The contractors were in the process of repairing that. If he couldn't get going, the washplant couldn't get going. When we travelled over to the workshop, there was a few contractors around there. There was one bloke, he was doing
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XN MS GRAY
repairs to a dozer blade. It had just come back from - it was supposed to be rebuilt, but it wasn't done to their satisfaction so, you know, he was actually carrying out some more modifications to it. There was also a boilermaker and an offsider down in our boilermaking workshop, making something - repairing something. That about covers it, I think.
PN2667
And with the use of contractors at Gregory, do any of them take instructions from the Gregory mine - the Gregory work-force?---Yes, in the truck shop which is the Silcar employee up there, he works with us and quite often he'd be giving somebody a hand. If he has any troubles, he goes through the plan with the foreman, you know, he goes out and does jump-starts. With the other general maintenance - - -
PN2668
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you mean a jump-start?---Oh, just a battery has gone flat.
PN2669
Oh, I see?---They call him out to the field to pick it up.
PN2670
I was just checking it wasn't some complicated coal term?---No.
PN2671
Yes?---Yes, and we've got a planner there, he works out what's broken or down days, he schedules everything and he gets hold of the contractors and say, "Look, this is how many people I want. This is the jobs I want done, supply the labour".
PN2672
MS GRAY: And are those contractors, to your knowledge, on contracts to do that maintenance?---They're on a service agreement, I believe, so just whenever they roll up, this is the amount of money the Silcars or whatever will receive, for that period of time.
PN2673
So there's a set price for work - - -?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XN MS GRAY
PN2674
- - - but no guarantee that they will be the only ones who receive that work?---No, the main reason the company likes using contractors is if tomorrow they don't like them, or the coal industry, you know, the dollar gets up too high, they just turn around and say, "Well, we don't need you today, see you later".
PN2675
And are any of the - I think you've given, in your statement, you say that a number of the Silcar maintenance employees who have worked out at Gregory over a long period of time are ex-Gregory employees?---Yes. The company gives preference to people who employ ex-employees because they know where everything is, they've done the job before, so the job runs a lot smoother, and they actually don't so much ask for the company, they just say, "We want these people", and whoever company they work for, when they're working for Silcar, you know, they want the Hennings and all that, and whoever they're working for, that's who does the job.
PN2676
And is there any distinction that you can see from your years in working in maintenance out at Gregory between the way that the work is performed by contractor employees or direct employees?---No. It's just - it's the same tasks. They use our gear, use all our equipment from the store, the holding rods. They just go down the warehouse, grab that. Steel and all that, that's held in our - they don't actually have to go on - work out what they want, go and order it and get it brought in. They just go and use all our stock down the store.
PN2677
But there would be times when they would bring certain gear on to site of their own, wouldn't there?---Yes, specialised sort of gear. Yes.
PN2678
And when you say "they use all our gear", is that talking about equipment?---Yes. Consumables, cranes, forklifts, trucks. Yes, they've pretty well got everything covered out there that you require, they can use.
PN2679
So the mine supplies that to the contractors - - - ?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XN MS GRAY
PN2680
- - - for their employees to do that work?---That's correct.
PN2681
PN2682
MR HERBERT: Mr Logovik, of course, in the case of Dyno Nobel, they bring everything on site, don't they?---They have their stuff left on our site. Yes. It is their stuff, Dyno.
PN2683
And they - their primary role at the sites that you're aware of is to sell explosives to the employer - to the mining company?---I wouldn't say that their main role. They do - that's who the company buys it off of.
PN2684
Yes. That's where the money comes from, though, isn't it?---Well, they do more than sell it. They put it in the hole.
PN2685
They do some other things, but I said the primary role is to sell explosives to the company. In an average size shot like we saw being planned, or in the state of preparation at Gregory when we were on the inspection, did I hear a figure of something in the order of maybe 300 tonnes of explosives could go - - - ?---Yes. 200 million - 200 tonnes, sorry. Yes.
PN2686
200 tonnes of explosives. So there's 200 tonnes of explosives being sold every time one of those shots goes off?---That's correct.
PN2687
Is that right? You understand that's where the money is in relation to those matters with Dyno?---Well, yes, they make money of it. Yes.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR HERBERT
PN2688
Yes, out of selling it. But they - you mentioned before about the Silcar people, you say, just basically bring a body on site and then they use all the consumables and tools and workshops and things provided by the company. None of that applies to Dyno, does it?---Oh, I think they get stuff out of our warehouse. They supply their basic stuff, like, they've got their trucks, that sort of stuff, but consumables, I'm pretty sure they just help themselves to the store. Now, whether they get billed for it or not, I'm not sure.
PN2689
What consumables? Have you ever seen the Dyno people going and taking consumables out of the store?---I'm seen them down the store. Yes.
PN2690
Have you?---Yes.
PN2691
Doing what? But you don't know whether they pay for it?---Well, they have a system there, if you're not on the computer, you must right it in the book and the storeman books it out for you.
PN2692
Well, presumably bills it back?---Oh, I couldn't - wouldn't be sure on that.
PN2693
But you're talking about some pretty minor stuff. What are you talking about? What sort of consumables do the Dyno people use, other than explosives?---Oh, just the general run of the mill.
PN2694
Like what?---Rope, the cones they seal the top - the top of the drill holes, you know, Stanley knives. There's always something out there you need.
PN2695
I see. They bring their own - but all the big ticket items - - - ?---Yes.
PN2696
- - - the explosives, all the constituent parts for the explosives, the trucks, the magazines, the augers, the containers, all that sort of stuff, they bring it all themselves, don't they?---Well, they supply it. It stays on the mine site. It doesn't go anywhere else normally.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR HERBERT
PN2697
Well, they can take it somewhere else if they need it on another site?---Yes.
PN2698
But they bring all of that. They bring all of their own explosives. They sell the explosives to the company, and they manufacture - they complete the manufacturing process to turn the raw materials into explosive there and then on the site, don't they?---Well, they supply the ingredient.
PN2699
Yes?---Right. Unless you mix it with the diesel and put a detonator, it's not really an explosive.
PN2700
That's right?---So they - - -
PN2701
But they provide the detonators?---I'm not sure.
PN2702
And they provide the prill, and they provide the diesel, and then they mix the constitute parts together in the process of - at the last minute before putting it down the hole. That's right, isn't it?---That sounds correct.
PN2703
And that's all part of delivering a consumable product to the customer?---Oh, I think that's gone a bit beyond what they have to do.
PN2704
Well, if they're contracted to provide explosive, do you understand that the stuff doesn't become an explosive until it's mixed together, the fuel oil and the ANFO is mixed together?---Yes.
PN2705
So it's not explosive until the point where it is mixed together?---That's right.
PN2706
So if they're contracted to provide an explosive, that is something that actually will detonate when charged, then they have to take it to the hole before they're providing the actual explosive. That's right, isn't it?---They've got to take it to the hole to mix it up. Yes.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR HERBERT
PN2707
Yes. So if they're contract is to provide an explosive, to sell an explosive, they can't just leave the constitute parts there and walk away. They're actually got to mix it together, and you only do that as you put it in the whole, to be safe?---I'm no expert on it.
PN2708
You're not?---No.
PN2709
All right. But you understand that's the process that's gone through?---I know that's the process that's there, but - - -
PN2710
Yes?--- - - - my difference is, as far as I'm concerned, is they - like, back in the ICI days, they used to bring it on, store it, and then when they were ready for a shot, then they carted it down, and with the Gregory people they put it in the hole and then the Gregory person blew it up.
PN2711
The Gregory - - - ?---And that's all changed.
PN2712
All right. It's all changed, but in those days, if there was any mixing to do to complete the manufacturing process to turn the ingredients into an explosive, that was done by Gregory people at a time gone past, was it?---Oh, Gregory, ICI, combined effort.
PN2713
All right. But now Dyno completes the manufacturing - the whole of the manufacturing and delivery process itself, right to the whole?---Yes.
PN2714
Right to the customer's doorstep?---Yes, and then let it off.
PN2715
While at Gregory, there is currently a shot firer at Gregory who's employed by Dyno; is that right?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR HERBERT
PN2716
Do you know anywhere else where that happens?---Not that I'm aware of.
PN2717
But, again, the shot firer only detonates the products that his employer has brought onto the site?---In theory, yes.
PN2718
Well, in practice, yes. It's his company's explosives that he is detonating, his detonators, his explosive, his materials, his everything He sets off his own product?---Yes.
PN2719
And I think you've mentioned at one stage that there is a computer - there is use of computers in relation to designing of a shot, and that it's - the use which is made of a computer in that respect is intended, or is directed towards the effective use of the company's product?---Yes. All I know is that the - Dyno's engineers, the company say, "This is where I want it blasted."
PN2720
Yes?---Dyno go away and design how deep and how much explosives and all that on that computer system that you had a look at, and then that's handed on to our engineer and the Crinum surveyors, they use the same data so they know where to peg it out, how far, etcetera.
PN2721
Yes. All right. And that's - would you describe that as being in the nature of product support, that is, supporting the product by explaining to the customer the best way to use it to get the best result?---Yes. It's a stretch of the imagination to say it's customer support. It's more or less designing the shot.
PN2722
Telling the customer how to use their product, the one they're going to sell to him so he gets the best result?---I suppose in a roundabout way you could, but I don't believe it's customer support.
PN2723
It's like explaining how to use your new photocopier, or your new DVD?---Yes, but you only tell them once, don't they?
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR HERBERT
PN2724
Yes. Well, if you're only - if you were using - if it's a consumable product and it has to keep on being consumed in a different environment every time, then it's product support to show how in that environment it is best to be used, isn't it?---Well, it's not so much the environment. The things that change - I mean to say, customer support is, "You mix this. This is the best way to do it." But every time they use it, you've got to give them - tell them how to do it. That's - - -
PN2725
That's what the mining engineer says. He says, "This is the best way how to do it on that particular block that you've just shown me"?---Yes. I'm not expert on it, but I don't think I'd agree with you there.
PN2726
Now, you've referred to the question of secondary blasting in - I'm sorry - - - ?---I think that's the bit I erased, because years ago we used to blast the coal. We don't do that any more.
PN2727
Yes. You're right. Now, you say - can I take you to paragraph 17. You say:
PN2728
Dyno provides shot firers to detonate the shot and have a greater involvement in planning of the blasting.
PN2729
What involvement does the shot firer have in the planning of the blast?---The shot firer?
PN2730
Yes?---Well, he could have a safety plan, for a start.
PN2731
I see?---When he's going to have the shot, he's got to work out that there's five roads and he needs five guards. He's then got to take it up to the mining superintendent or the engineer and say, "Look, this is what I think we should do." And the engineer will either agree with him or disagree.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR HERBERT
PN2732
Yes?---He's got to make sure that he's got enough guards. He's got to organise the guards. He's got to say, "Look, I need five guards. I need them at this time." So he's more or less telling the company that they've got to get all this stuff. So - - -
PN2733
That's his statutory responsibility. The shot firer has statutory duties, does he not?---He does.
PN2734
And that's his responsibility, to tell whoever it is what sort of guards need to be done and what sort of procedures need to be followed?---Quite possible.
PN2735
That's not something you know - you don't know about his statutory - - - ?---I know he's got a statutory responsibilities but what they are, I wouldn't be 100 per cent sure on.
PN2736
Now, you've never seen the Dyno employees involved in the drilling of holes?---Not on our mine, no.
PN2737
And the allocation of where blasting is to occur and where the next blast is to be designed, all of that is done by the mine management?---Yes. Engineers says, "We want that block blown".
PN2738
Yes?---And then, the way I understand it, is then Dyno go and say, well, how many holes, this is what you need.
PN2739
And they - the Dyno person, presumably, have some understanding of the characteristics of his product, or, his company's product, so as to have some input into the best way to achieve a result?---Yes, well, I suppose his product does all the same. I don't know.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR HERBERT
PN2740
Now, do you have anything to do or have you had anything to do with G and S engineering on your site?---I don't think so. Possibly they do come on - we do have a contractor mob come on - on our down-day for the drag line to service the bucket but we hire our bucket or lease it or something like that. So I'm not real sure who the contractors are.
PN2741
PN2742
MR PALMER: I will be very brief, Mr Logovik. I take it you are a tradesman. You work full-time on the site?---Yes.
PN2743
And you have for a long time?---Yes.
PN2744
Have you seen changes in maintenance over the years?---Yes, yes.
PN2745
What sort of things have changed?---Well, basically the numbers. You know, a lot of the stuff is the same. It's just different people doing it.
PN2746
But the way is organised in terms of shuts and availability of plant. Has that changed?---I think it's pretty well - you know, they've always had a target that they want something available 90 or 95 per cent of the time and they've always had a schedule of once every two weeks they'll do the wash plant, once every three weeks they'll do the overlander or clean coal. So, they've always had that schedule. But, as I said, it's basically the same job in the wash plant, workshop area, that we've been doing for a long time.
PN2747
Would it be fair to say that a lot of the longer shuts have been - they don't happen any more and more work is done on the run?---No. No, I wouldn't agree with you there.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR PALMER
PN2748
Do you still have shuts at Christmas - two week shuts and things like that?---They normally plan a drag line and drill down once a year. The wash plant, they have a one or two week shut down when ..... - that's when you've got your peak people. But day to day it is, you know, things break down. Things need to be made. So not much change there, I don't believe.
PN2749
Now, you used to be a member of the AMWU?---Correct.
PN2750
And you're now a member of the CFMEU?---That's right.
PN2751
You talked about Silcar employees. You are aware from time to time Silcar employees may replace a direct employee?---Yes.
PN2752
And you've mentioned that and you're aware of the jump-up provision that applies when that happens?---The - the mine rate sort of thing?
PN2753
Yes?---It hadn't been applied out there, though.
PN2754
Sorry?---It hasn't been applied out there. I've - it's a case I've had with the company and they've only just two weeks ago decided that, yes, if they get a contractor in to replace me while I'm on holidays they'll pay the extra money.
PN2755
Yes, well, that's - that's as it should be and I understand that's the arrangement, yes. Now, would you agree with me that there are three groups of people on the site? There are production workers who win and process the coal - agree with that?---Yes. There's different divisions, yes.
PN2756
Yes, and there are direct employee maintenance people who form part of the crews?---Yep.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK XXN MR PALMER
PN2757
And there are some contractors?---Yes, that's basically it in a bit of nutshell, yes.
PN2758
Yes, I have no further questions, your Honour.
PN2759
PN2760
MS GRAY: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Logovik, you were saying in response to a question from Mr Palmer that a couple of weeks ago you had an issue with the company on a replacement employee that if somebody is coming to replace you on leave that they weren't necessarily going to be paid coal mining industry rates. Can you elaborate on that?---Yes. Yes, what happened there is that in the past if I went on holidays and somebody replaced me, they'd just be paid their normal service - service agreement. There was no extra benefits to them. The company has agreed that because he's doing the same job as me he should be getting the same entitlements so therefore he should be getting the mine rates.
PN2761
So while they were getting away with it, it's less than coal mining industry rates but - did you raise that in your role as a lodge official?---Yes, I did.
PN2762
And, so, when it was raised it's now been addressed and agreed to by the company?---Yes.
PN2763
And you've given evidence that in the past the maintenance and minor construction agreement provided for contractors to get coal mining rates and conditions?---Yes, that's when the agreement was first written up. That's the way it was - it was designed. It had that maintenance and minor construction agreement award in it there so they got these - the coal award, as a minimum, but that's no longer been - been implemented. So, they're on reasonable sort of rates but they're just not getting the conditions that, but, you know, I'm doing the same job as them and he's on less money and less conditions and he's out there mostly, more often than I am.
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK RXN MS GRAY
PN2764
Silcar employees, other than this one - the replacement employee you've dealt with by the company - with the company a couple of weeks ago and that's been addressed but what you're saying is that the - the other contractor employees doing the normal work at Gregory mine are on a decent rate. When you say a "decent rate", is that comparable to coal mining industry rate?---No, it's nowhere near as good as my rate but as a contractor, sort of, price, you know. Around the - wherever you want to go contracting, the actual hourly rate's not too bad.
PN2765
But they're not getting the coal mining industry conditions - - - ?---No.
PN2766
- - - in terms of annual leave - - - ?---No.
PN2767
- - - long service leave. Okay, nothing further thank you, your Honour.
PN2768
MR PALMER: Your Honour, I let Ms Gray go. I mean, I did not like to interfere with her train of thought but I take exception to the comment, "while they were getting away with it". Silcar are employees on that site work under a certified enterprise agreement. I've been instructed by the Queensland manager that there is a solid arrangement in place - - -
PN2769
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think - - -
PN2770
MR PALMER: with the coal mines, particularly on this site, and where someone is nominated as a replacement employee - which happens from time to time - that they are afforded the terms and conditions of the owner's own agreement. And in that case Silcar acts merely as a labour provide - it provides a body.
PN2771
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, and the payment is made by the mine. Is that not the case when they are doing replacement work?
**** STEPHEN LOGOVIK RXN MS GRAY
PN2772
MR PALMER: Well, the mines indicate what rate and what terms and conditions are to apply.
PN2773
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think the reference was - "getting away with it", was to the mine, was it? In any event, it is a matter - - -
PN2774
MR PALMER: Yes, well, this is a fairly general comment from the witness but, in fact, the facts of the matter are Silcar employees are at the relevant index point. If we talk about the C10 100 per cent rate are in fact paid $2 an hour more as we speak today than the - their equivalent in the mine.
PN2775
MS GRAY: Your Honour, if Mr - - -
PN2776
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This witness evidence - please. His - the witness' evidence is that in relation to replacement persons for him that that wasn't the case until two weeks ago. If you wish to call evidence to contradict that then it is a matter for you, Mr Palmer, but that is his evidence. I do not know what position you put from the bar table but this witness says as evidence is that except for the arrangements that have been in place when he has raised it that those commitments were not met. Perhaps it is a matter you need to deal with. This matter is listed on Monday. The Commission is adjourned.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.25pm]
ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 2003 [1.26pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #GRAY8 SUMMARY OF AIRC INSPECTIONS AT GREGORY CRINUM MINES ON 28/10/2003 AND BLACKWATER MINE ON 29/10/2003 PN2121
STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE, AFFIRMED PN2151
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GRAY PN2151
EXHIBIT #GRAY9 STATEMENT OF STEVEN ALAN GEORGE PIERCE DATED 01/09/2003 PN2163
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HERBERT PN2196
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PALMER PN2522
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAY PN2608
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2615
STEPHEN LOGOVIK, AFFIRMED PN2644
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GRAY PN2644
EXHIBIT #GRAY10 WITNESS STATEMENT OF STEPHEN LOGOVIK PN2661
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HERBERT PN2682
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PALMER PN2742
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GRAY PN2760
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2776
AustLII:
Copyright Policy
|
Disclaimers
|
Privacy Policy
|
Feedback
URL: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/AIRCTrans/2003/5231.html