C1999/178, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 5387 (5 December 2003)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DUNCAN

C1999/178

THE HIGHER EDUCATION WORKERS VICTORIA
(INTERIM) AWARD 1993

Review under Item 51, Schedule 5,
Transitional WROLA Act 1996 re
conditions of employment

SYDNEY

2.07 PM, WEDNESDAY, 19 NOVEMBER 2003

Continued from 24.10.03

PN235

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I acknowledge that we have received a very substantial document from Mr Cameron, which I think is in effect the skeleton of the whole award, some parts of course are more substantial than others, that is the extent of that document, is it not?

PN236

MR CAMERON: That is correct, your Honour, in as far as it goes. It is the skeleton of the award for Part 1, which is the common conditions, and Part 2, which related to higher education, Part 3, which related to the Miscellaneous Workers and then there is another part which is the transcript of which there is no work being done at this stage.

PN237

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see, yes, that is apparent from the arrangement page of the draft, yes. Good, that is fine. All right, well, we will start with you, Mr Cameron, what is the position as you see it?

PN238

MR CAMERON: Okay, thank you. What I will perhaps do for the sake of everyone here is, I will just go through each of the parts very quickly and I won't get too bogged down with detail, but we could just start with Part 1, and at the bottom it has got, "HEWV Common", and it is dated 12 November.

PN239

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN240

MR CAMERON: ..... It is fair to say, your Honour, that the parties apart from myself, have only had this document for the same amount of time that you have, so they haven't had an opportunity to respond to me in any way of what I have included in here. What I have tried to do is just include things that will apply to everything that is in the award. They are the things, such as enterprise flexibility provisions, index of facilitative provisions, etcetera, etcetera. One thing I would like to take you to, your Honour, is the heading at clause 10 - unfortunately I haven't numbered the pages, but clause 10.

PN241

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN242

MR CAMERON: What I have done there and, once again, this is something to everyone else at the table will have some input, but I will go to clause 10, and the Dispute Settling Procedure that applies to the Higher Education section. What I have got at clause 11 is another dispute settling procedure that applies to the miscellaneous section and there may be another clause 12, which is a dispute settling procedure that applies in the transcript at some further stage.

PN243

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN244

MR CAMERON: I just bring it to your attention and to everyone else's attention because what I'm trying to do is take those clauses that are common out of the back parts and put it into the common conditions part of it at the front. As I say, it is only to let you know that that is the path that we are currently going down and not for any other reason.

PN245

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.

PN246

MR CAMERON: If I could take you next to, "HEWV Simplified Packed", which is well the second document.

PN247

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Part 2?

PN248

MR CAMERON: Yes, Part 2, Higher Education, and that would be Part 2(a).

PN249

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a minute, just a moment, let me get that right? Yes, I have got that, yes.

PN250

MR CAMERON: Okay. This is a document that considerable work has been done on between the CEPSU, the NTEU and the employer groups who are here today and there are as I recall in this, three outstanding issues. If you can turn over to page 2 of this document and if we look at the statement of application of Part 2(a), there is still a question to be answered as to the respondency of Deakin University, who is one of my members to this Part.

PN251

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN252

MR CAMERON: So that issue remains outstanding. I don't believe it will be an issue that will require your assistance, but it is just an issue that perhaps Rhidian and myself need to work our way through to resolve that.

PN253

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. I notice that there is a reference to "Warrnambool Campus", but that is part of the problem you are speaking about, is it?

PN254

MR CAMERON: That is correct, yes.

PN255

MR THOMAS: If I may, your Honour, it is Rhidian Thomas here. I mean, obviously, Deakin as a merged institution post-Dawkins, some of the university proper was a respondent to the University General Staff Award, but some of the old Victorian Colleges, Warrnambool and Burwood, were respondent to the Packed CAE Award and, obviously, those are different campuses, and I think your Honour dealt with pretty much the same issue in the Victorian Post-Compulsory Academic Award.

PN256

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. Yes, I certainly understand the concept of the problem.

PN257

MR THOMAS: Yes.

PN258

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, Mr Cameron.

PN259

MR CAMERON: Yes. The next clause that remained outstanding is clause 9 and that is on page 10 of that document.

PN260

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, redundancy.

PN261

MR CAMERON: Yes. At this stage, I have proposed a clause to the union which is, well, very similar to the redundancy clause included in the Australian Catholic University General Staff Award. At this stage though the NTEU ..... and ourselves haven't had the opportunity to discuss the precise wording of this clause. Once again, I am fairly confident that we will be able to resolve this issue ourselves without requiring your assistance in this particular matter.

PN262

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Just for my benefit, the redundancy clause starts with a reference to:

PN263

Provisions applicable to Monash.

PN264

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN265

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are there any general provisions?

PN266

MR CAMERON: Sorry, I don't understand the question?

PN267

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, Part 2(a) covers a list of institutions in clause 2 of Part 2(a), Scope And Application.

PN268

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN269

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the redundancy provisions - I see, it is simply a reference to where they are to be found, isn't it? It isn't a restriction on clause 9, it is quite the opposite.

PN270

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN271

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is saying that Monash University provisions will be found somewhere else?

PN272

MR CAMERON: That is correct.

PN273

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 9.1, etcetera, are a general application?

PN274

MR CAMERON: That is correct, yes.

PN275

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, I am clear now.

PN276

MR CAMERON: The next issue that remains outstanding between the parties can be found at page 25 in clause 18.

PN277

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN278

MR CAMERON: If you can just see at 18.1, it says:

PN279

The provisions of this clause will not apply to an employee whose salary exceeds that prescribed for the top of Higher Education Worker Level 6 -

PN280

then it has got in brackets -

PN281

(7). There is still some debate between the parties as to whether that should be Level 6, or Level 7.

PN282

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN283

MR CAMERON: Once again, the same issue extends into the overtime clause at clause 19. It is the same issue and, once again, I'm hopeful - we are trying to locate some historical data still that will provide an insight to that and once we do locate that, we will be able to sort that issue relatively easily ourselves.

PN284

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN285

MR CAMERON: Just in finalising what other changes we have made with this document from the last occasion is that we have taken into account the letter received from your office on 22 October 2003, and we have worked our way through the comments made in that letter and where they have been deemed appropriate we have made the changes in the document.

PN286

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN287

MR CAMERON: We sat down and worked our way through the document. There is a couple of other little issues that relate to perhaps try to simplify the award even more, or putting it into English that we can all understand, but once again I am fairly confident we will work that out ourselves and we will work that out fairly quickly.

PN288

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good. That means that that Part 2(a) is in pretty fine shape?

PN289

MR CAMERON: That would be my position, your Honour, yes.

PN290

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good. Will we deal with the other people's comments on that one now, rather than progress into other fields?

PN291

MR CAMERON: I am happy with that course of action, yes.

PN292

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, then, just before we do because I can't quite satisfy myself whether it is a general application or not, and in case I forget it, clause 4(1)(2) of the very first part of the proposed award, the Part 1 application in operation of the award, names the CEPSU and the NTEU and the LHMU as union parties.

PN293

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN294

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are they all the unions that will be affected by some part or another of this award when it is finally completed?

PN295

MR CAMERON: My understanding is that they are the unions that are currently respondent to the Hume Award.

PN296

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right, that is the answer I needed, that clears that up. It is in that same provision, I know I'm anticipating here a bit, but not in the same part, in clause 10 it says:

PN297

In clause 10.3.1...

PN298

D, as I understand it, it is a provision saying that until you have gone through the various stages of the dispute settling procedure in higher education, it won't go to the AIRC, naturally, except in the case of unfair dismissals.

PN299

MR THOMAS: Mm.

PN300

MS ILIAS: Yes.

PN301

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is all that that clause is about, isn't it, in regard to 10.3.1(b)? It sets out a - - -

PN302

MR THOMAS: Well, it certainly could be a bit ..... explained, I would imagine, because you could read it to say that no dispute will ever be taken ..... industrial relations.

PN303

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's right.

PN304

MR THOMAS: I would suggest that there is a sub clause missing at the end there.

PN305

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. There should be an `e'. I leave that with you. Just when I was reading the documents, preparatory to the proceedings this afternoon, I noticed that and did wonder just what it meant, so having raised it I leave it with you.

PN306

MR CAMERON: We were very aware of your heavy workload and just thought we can avoid that by referring matters to you as often as we can.

PN307

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I won't rise to that. The union, as far as the comments on the part we have just dealt with, the pact provision, Mr Thomas?

PN308

MR THOMAS: I don't think I have anything different to add from that provided by Mr Cameron, your Honour. He highlighted the issues in the pact sector that still need to be addressed, but I don't think there is any great difference between us. It is just a matter of finding the source documents for the translation issue from the overtime aspect.

PN309

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see, yes.

PN310

MR THOMAS: Obviously the scope and application, but that is reasonably straightforward, but there is nothing of huge substance that stands between us on that part of the document.

PN311

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good. All right. Mr Perica?

PN312

MR PERICA: Your Honour, I do nothing other than concur with my colleagues at the bar table who have expressed a view so far. I think we are pretty close.

PN313

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, it certainly seems so. All right. You are not involved in that, Ms Ilias, are you?

PN314

MS ILIAS: No, your Honour.

PN315

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, Mr Cameron, what else do you wish to report.

PN316

MR CAMERON: What I do wish to report is I understand Ms Ilias has a tight time frame with you this afternoon, so I was wondering if I was able to take things a bit out of sequence so that we can deal with the areas that Ms Ilias is involved in and then come back to the other higher education areas, if that is at all possible?

PN317

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Certainly all right as far as I'm concerned. So we will go there. Is that the miscellaneous section?

PN318

MR CAMERON: That is correct, your Honour, yes.

PN319

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.

PN320

MR CAMERON: If I could just briefly, part 3(a) is the building services staff conditions document.

PN321

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I have it.

PN322

MR CAMERON: Ms Ilias has had that for a grand total of about four days now. It is a result of some document exchanges between the parties and similar to what we do with the higher education sector. We now put some words together into what we are going to use as a negotiating document and it is probably fair to say that no real discussion has taken place on this particular part of the award at this stage, but it is a start in the right direction.

PN323

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I agree with that completely. I hear you call it a negotiating document. I accept that, but it is already further advanced than it was at the last report, so subject to what Ms Ilias has to say, I am satisfied. Ms Ilias?

PN324

MS ILIAS: No, we have progressed quite well, even though it is just a negotiating document.

PN325

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good. Do you want to get away Ms Ilias?

PN326

MR CAMERON: .....

PN327

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, Mr Cameron.

PN328

MR CAMERON: Part 3(b), which is catering and retail staff conditions. I suspect that that document speaks for itself?

PN329

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There can be no dispute about it, anyway.

PN330

MR ..........: You never know.

PN331

MR ..........: Spoken as unambiguous.

PN332

MR CAMERON: Part 3(b) relates to security employees. Once again, it is the same as Part 3(a). Ms Ilias probably wouldn't have even had an opportunity to work her way through it at this stage, but it does form a negotiating document for the parties.

PN333

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you agree, Ms Ilias?

PN334

MS ILIAS: That is right, your Honour.

PN335

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Once again, it is good to see that the parties have got as far as I have, because I remember the miscellaneous and the other related ones in this area started very much behind the eight ball in comparison to higher ed. I note with pleasure the developments that have taken place. Anything else?

PN336

MR CAMERON: Just Part 3(d), which is children's services staff conditions.

PN337

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN338

MR CAMERON: It is a document that is a little bit further developed. It has been the subject of some negotiations between the employer parties here today and Ms Ilias and what I would expect in terms of percentages we have to say it is roughly 75 per cent complete, this particular part. There is a couple of issues that we think we could probably knock over with another meeting between the parties, then we can start moving on to Parts 3 (a), (b) and (c) of this section.

PN339

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. That is good, too. Very well. Anything else concerning the LHMU?

PN340

MR CAMERON: No. I think at this stage, Ms Ilias is excused.

PN341

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Certainly, Ms Ilias, whenever you wish to go please do so.

PN342

MS ILIAS: Thank you, your Honour.

PN343

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, Mr Cameron, we will return to the agenda items.

PN344

MR CAMERON: Yes, back to Part 2(b), your Honour.

PN345

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 2(b), yes.

PN346

MR CAMERON: This document, similar to Part 2(a), has been the subject of considerable negotiation between the parties. I am please to report that only two issues remain outstanding, and I am pleased to report that those two issues are two issues that are outstanding in Part 2(a). If I could just take the Commission to clause 2.

PN347

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN348

MR CAMERON: Once again, we have the question of the respondency of Deakin University.

PN349

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see, yes.

PN350

MR CAMERON: It is a two part issues. If we can look at clause 14.

PN351

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Overtime?

PN352

MR CAMERON: Yes. Once again, at clause 14.3, where it refers to a higher education worker level, there is a debate over whether it is level 6 or 7. So again, it is the same debate that exists in the pact section.

PN353

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If you solve one you will solve the other?

PN354

MR CAMERON: Absolutely.

PN355

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good.

PN356

MR CAMERON: I would suggest that those two clauses are being worked out. We have been through - as I said - your letter of 22 October - and made the appropriate changes. So I would say once we sort out those two issues then that section is agreed as well.

PN357

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Mr Thomas?

PN358

MR THOMAS: Yes. On that - agree with what Mr Cameron said is the two issues, although in relation to clause 2, scope and application, whilst the issue of Deakin needs to be addressed, also there is reference to the Ludwig Institute of Cancer Research who, to their credit, have been involved in many of the discussions, however, some of the other research institutes, and I refer to Macfarlane Burnet and Howard Florey, have not been involved in the discussions between the parties, unfortunately, but they will need to be included at the end of this process.

PN359

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I noticed that they are not mentioned in clause 2.

PN360

MR THOMAS: No, that is why - well, having only received this on Monday afternoon and, you know, had basically ten nano-seconds to go through it since then, I have got the notation: plus others.

PN361

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN362

MR THOMAS: But it is not an insurmountable or problematic issue. It is just a matter of attending to it, your Honour.

PN363

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. All right. Mr Perica?

PN364

MR PERICA: I have got nothing to add, your Honour.

PN365

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Mr Bown and Mr Crundall, has there been anything you want to have specifically noted?

PN366

MR BOWN: No, we are very happy with the progress thus far and we would agree with everything that has been said so far.

PN367

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very good. All right, Mr Cameron, what is next?

PN368

MR CAMERON: Can I just go back to the point raised by Mr Thomas. While I don't disagree with what he said, it is difficult for those of us who are at the table to include those institutes when they are not attending the negotiations. They have been invited to them all. Ludwig Institute has turned up to them all and they have asked me to represent them today. I can only represent my members and Melbourne and Monash can only represent themselves, obviously.

PN369

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Quite.

PN370

MR CAMERON: Those are the issues. We realise that they are respondent to this award, but it is sort of - we have - our role to include them in something which - I recognise that they will ultimately be included in it. The reason we haven't put them in is we are not representing them at this stage and they haven't been involved in the discussions.

PN371

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What I might do is - starting from scratch, as it were, and on the basis that we may not have their addresses for service purposes, I might if armed with those from you, Mr Thomas, when you work out who is involved - and this applies generally to the whole of the awards, if there are any other institutions which aren't represented one way or another, I might cause them to be written to, pointing out that the simplification process is under way and that they have been notified of proceedings and if they don't participate then they shouldn't expect to be able to - I won't put it quite this way - hold up proceedings at the end when they suddenly discover they have got an interest.

PN372

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN373

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Put them on notice, in effect, that this process is for everybody and parties which don't participate - and, of course, in simplification generally, there are many parties who don't participate and simply accept the award. But I want to avoid, in a matter which has taken as much effort by the parties who have participated as this has, that some body which has not played a role holds things up at the end.

PN374

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN375

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right, anything else, Mr Cameron?

PN376

MR CAMERON: Also there, we've got part 2C which is the, "Nursing Staff Conditions".

PN377

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN378

MR CAMERON: As I understand this is an agreed document and the parties are at the table are happy with the terms of this particular part of the new award.

PN379

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which union or unions claims the nurses in this situation? This is a matter of interest, nothing else.

PN380

MR THOMAS: Okay. Our archives is an interesting room, your Honour. My understanding is that there is an agreement between ourselves and the ANF that where resident nurses who are members of the ANF come and work in the higher education sector, they retain their ANF membership but we then have a servicing agreement with the ANF to assist them in that matter but that does not make us technically a respondent to that element of the award. So it is a bit of a grey zone, I would suggest, your Honour, and - - -

PN381

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You don't want to disturb it?

PN382

MR THOMAS: No, because as far as, you know, the scope of its actual application is not overly clear. But as far as, you know, the actual terms of this aspect of the award and conditions, as I would sort of run it as a comparison to the old underlined State awards, there is nothing in it that really jumps out with any warning signals as far as we are concerned.

PN383

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You mean the conditions?

PN384

MR THOMAS: Yes.

PN385

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I will give them some thought. It is a grey area, as you say.

PN386

MR THOMAS: Yes.

PN387

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. What is next, Mr Cameron?

PN388

MR CAMERON: The next document is the schedule. There's two schedules for this and they are contained in one document there's schedule A and a schedule B.

PN389

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN390

MR CAMERON: All they are is the current position classification standards. They are the ones that are in the current HEWVIC award, they are not the new DWS restrictors.

PN391

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that is right.

PN392

MR CAMERON: The current salaries that were varied as part of the safety net adjustment in May or June of this year I think it was.

PN393

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN394

MR CAMERON: It is just the current award rates and the current classification standards and I've done that for completeness. It is sort of hard to have an award without having rates of pay.

PN395

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I agree.

PN396

MR CAMERON: For completeness, I've attached this schedule.

PN397

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, they will certainly appear in the varied award which cleans the whole matter up when they find the issues but from what you say, schedule A and schedule B present no difficulty and will be going into the simplified award as they stand in the draft you have given me?

PN398

MR CAMERON: That would be, yes.

PN399

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, if I remember rightly from the DWS case, the schedule A in HEWVIC award was considered to be acceptable to all.

PN400

MR CAMERON: Yes, I think that, either as a detailed ..... as you do, I'm sure, but I think that is the case. That is why we would be happy with this.

PN401

MR THOMAS: Yes, certainly from the NTUs point of view, your Honour, that they are supported by us. It is the issue of whether or not the salary is a problem is where we would be apart.

PN402

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN403

MR THOMAS: Which goes also to the issue of, you know, the HEWVIC award being just as an interim award in the first place.

PN404

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is right, which is something that we have to attend to because when it is issued as a simplified award, it won't be an interim award.

PN405

MR THOMAS: Yes, correct, your Honour.

PN406

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. There's nothing else, Mr Cameron, is there?

PN407

MR CAMERON: No, there isn't. If I could just - sorry, when I say no, there is actually something else. If I could just take the Commission to exhibit AS2.

PN408

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I was afraid you were going to do that. What is AS2? I might as well confess my ignorance.

PN409

MR CAMERON: Okay. AS2 is a draft simplified Hue award structure and it is a flow chart and if the video was there, I could show you what it looked like. One page.

PN410

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is one page. When was it handed up?

PN411

MR CAMERON: It was one of the very first times that we - it was probably prior to you issuing of the orders in June 2003, probably - - -

PN412

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But it was handed up to me? It wasn't handed up to Commissioner Smith?

PN413

MR CAMERON: No, it was handed up to you and you marked it AS2.

PN414

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: AS1, in my position, is a draft directions.

PN415

MR CAMERON: Yes. It is actually referred to, your Honour. In your directions issued on 13 June this year and you go back to the exhibit list and it is listed there as AS2.

PN416

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see, draft simplified HEWV award structure.

PN417

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN418

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, I have AS2.

PN419

MR CAMERON: Believing that I wanted to refer to that is if you look at the structures that is outlined on that flow chart, it has a part 1 which are proposed type of conditions.

PN420

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN421

MR CAMERON: For all general staff, then if we go to the left, it has part 2 and "Higher eduction, proposed topic conditions across higher eduction strength".

PN422

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN423

MR CAMERON: Well, we may be moving away from that is all I'm really trying to say.

PN424

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN425

MR CAMERON: Because what we were going to have is common condition and then common conditions for each particular part, where now maybe it just the common conditions, then the particular parts rather than having multiple common conditions.

PN426

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Two layers as opposed to three layers?

PN427

MR CAMERON: Yes, exactly.

PN428

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it sounds as though it is eminently suitable for a simplification process.

PN429

MR CAMERON: Yes, I would have thought so but I just wanted to - because it was part of your original directions, I just wanted to bring it to your attention that the path may have changed a little bit.

PN430

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, then. Well, you have done that and the record will show that that is happening. Certainly I have no objection to that taking place.

PN431

MR CAMERON: That being the case, your Honour, I don't have anything else to add to that.

PN432

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, Mr Thomas, do you have anything to add?

PN433

MR THOMAS: No, nothing further, your Honour.

PN434

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Perica?

PN435

MR PERICA: Nothing further, your Honour.

PN436

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Bown?

PN437

MR BOWN: No, nothing further, your Honour.

PN438

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Crundall?

PN439

MR CRUNDALL: Yes, your Honour, I just raise a point about Mr Cameron's has already gone through the progress so far with Part 4 which is basically there has been no progress and we have had directions this year to try to progress that but so far we've heard nothing from the relevant unions who expressed an interest earlier in those proceedings. I guess the problem is I'm just raising the question as to whether the plan is to how we should be proceeding with dealing with Part 4.

PN440

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is the Trades group, is it, Mr Crundall?

PN441

MR CRUNDALL: Correct.

PN442

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, the CEPU did participate in earlier proceedings of this kind, didn't they?

PN443

MR CAMERON: They did, your Honour.

PN444

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now let me check the directions. The CFMEU and the NUW - all have got an interest according to those directions, haven't they?

PN445

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN446

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think we might write to them and remind them of their obligations in the matter and see whether we can't stir some interest in it. We will suggest they get in touch with us first and then we will hand them over to the active participants in the certification process. I think we might go off record now to discuss what we will do in the future. I have considered the reports that have been made today and congratulate the parties present on the progress that has occurred. At this stage of the year it is necessary that there be a reasonable amount of time allowed for any further progress to occur and for that reason I will adjourn this matter to a further report on Wednesday 18 February 2004 at 9.30 am.

PN447

In the meantime endeavours will be undertaken to appraise the situation for the trades group of unions which, at this stage, have not complied with the directions that were issued on 13 June and about which something will have to be done. I think completes proceedings for this afternoon. Thank you all for your attendance. I adjourn this matter in accordance with the arrangements I've just outlined and I adjourn the Commission indefinitely.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [2.44pm]