C2003/6023, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 5431 (8 December 2003)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT HARRISON

C2003/6023

STATE TRANSIT AUTHORITY OF NEW SOUTH WALES

and

ARTBIU

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
re implementation of period rosters for the
operation of buses, etcetera

SYDNEY

10.26 AM, THURSDAY, 20 NOVEMBER 2003

PN1

MR G. HANSON: I appear for State Transit in this matter. I also have appearing with me MR C. MOORE.

PN2

MR G. PANIGIRIS: I appear for the Rail, Train and Bus Union. Appearing with me is MR D. BLAIR.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Panigiris. This is your notification, Mr Hanson.

PN4

MR HANSON: Yes, thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, the dispute has followed the dispute settling procedures of the award and of the relevant enterprise and certified agreement. We have gone from the work floor through the general manager of Newcastle Transport - Transit, sorry, up to Labor Council and we have still not reached any agreement or come to any resolution on the matter, therefore we are before you today.

PN5

The matter basically devolved down to what is a master roster - excuse me, what is a period roster and the ability of State Transit Management to alter rosters to suite the needs of the business or as emergencies or issues arise. I would have to say this, a period roster is posted every 4 weeks, a master roster may be developed and changed and posted at least twice a year. A master roster - and I want to make the distinction here, a master roster at the time it is posted and given to the union for the consultation agreement, contains all the known lines of work at that particular time.

PN6

A period roster - sorry, I withdraw that. A master roster therefore becomes a template for the arrangement, development and implementation for shifts. Now, a master roster arrangement applies to bus operators who do not enter into this particular dispute, and to employees employed under the Senior and Salary Officers Award and enterprise agreement, particularly the people that we call customer service officers grade 2 and 3, CSC2 and CSC3. This particular dispute arose out of the changing of a shift at Newcastle on a period roster of one CSC2, Mr Blair in fact, to cover another shift when an employee was off sick.

PN7

Now, as a result of that, my understanding is that the union's position is that a period roster is a master roster and therefore nothing on it can be changed without the consent of the union and any consultation must be by agreement, which is why we have put down definition of known work, consultation and the meaning of and the relationship between a master roster and a period roster. I would attach to the dispute - there is a copy of the dispute settlement procedure and the rostering principles.

PN8

I would also like to hand up to the Commission a document from our procedural libraries, which is the roster principles.

PN9

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have here a document comprising here some four parts or paragraphs, an introduction up to paragraph 4.7. It seems to be an extract from a work force management document dated 31 October last year, 2002, titled: Roster principles for CSC2 and 3 and TLOs and depot offices. Do you want me to mark that?

PN10

MR HANSON: Yes, please, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #STA1 DOCUMENTS FROM WORK FORCE MANAGEMENT DOCUMENT DATED 31 OCTOBER 2002

PN11

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Tell me again how the matter in dispute arose?

PN12

MR HANSON: Yes, your Honour. It may assist if I hand up one further document to you.

PN13

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I have - - -

PN14

MR HANSON: Yes, your Honour. Now, the document I've just handed up has it as its heading: Roster District Officer CSC3 commence Sunday 24th of the 8th '03. We say that this is a period roster. Your Honour, if you look at the document and you go down to the heading: Roster CSC2?

PN15

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN16

MR HANSON: You will see two names, Blair D, and Lynch K. If you take the line headed by Blair D, and go right across almost to the end, you will see Friday the 19th?

PN17

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN18

MR HANSON: Okay, you will see that the 12 in that box has been crossed out and that a 10 has been substituted. Now, I will just add by way of explanation, when you go to the legend underneath the document itself, 12 is a shift 6am to 1440 pm 40 ..... and if you go across a bit further you will find 10, the schedule 5am to 1310. Now, the 12 has been crossed off and the 10 has been substituted. If you can just bear with me, your Honour, if you go up to the first box which is roster CSC3, the second name there Clements A.

PN19

If you go across to the second square, if I can just take you to Thursday 4, you will see that a number of 7s from that box going along to your right have all been crossed off and in Thursday 4 Clements A, you will find the word "sick" has been written. Now, if you follow that through and again, you go to almost the end, which is Friday 19th, you will see that there is a 10. Now, when a 10 is rostered and I'm still referring to Mr Clements, that person is required in the control room. That is what we would call essential, we must have someone in the control room to handle those duties and attend the radio.

PN20

Mr Blair - sorry, Mr Clements, was in fact sick all the way through, but his notification of sickness was periodic. If you go back to the 4th, you will see he was sick up until Monday the 8th. He then reported in again and said he was sick, went through, he had 2 days off on Friday and Saturday the 12th and the 13th and then if you go to the Monday in that last box, you will find there is another arrow, he reported in sick again on that particular day and he reported that he would be sick for the rest of the week, so Mr Moore had the situation where we had an essential shift rostered all the way through and then he went down and he looked at Mr Blair and Mr Blair was on what we would call a shift, while important, is one we can do. He notified Mr Blair, I am informed, that the shift would be changing on Monday the 15th, so Mr Blair in fact would be doing the control room shift on Friday the 19th instead of - which would have been 5 am to 1310 instead of the 12th 6 am to 1440.

PN21

What that particularly means is that Mr Blair, who is a CSC2, undertook that work in the depot control room on Friday the 19th. He received a higher rate of pay - that of a Customer Service Coordinator Grade 3 - and the morning shift for it. In fairness, Mr Blair did inform Mr Moore, on or around about the Tuesday or the Wednesday - that is either the 16th or the 17th - that he didn't believe Mr Moore could get him to do that particular shift. Nonetheless, to be fair to Mr Blair, he did the shift. My understanding of the dispute right up to this level is that the union maintains that a period roster is a master roster and you can't change it without their consent. Therein lies the nub of the matter, your Honour.

PN22

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Blair's roster seemed to have changed earlier on in that week as well, namely on the 14th he seemed to have been on shift 10 instead of off, and on the 15th it seems that his roster seemed to have to be changed, and similarly on Thursday the 18th. What were the circumstances of those changes?

PN23

MR HANSON: On the 14th and 15th Mr Blair, as I understood, did a mutual swap with - if you go up into the next box - relief Leigh A.

PN24

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So that is an exception, you understand, to what the union asserts?

PN25

MR HANSON: Yes, that is covered in the rostering principles, by mutual swap.

PN26

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Whatever might be the understanding, swaps are allowed?

PN27

MR HANSON: Yes.

PN28

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What about Thursday the 18th?

PN29

MR HANSON: That, again, is involved in a swap with A Leigh. If we are looking at that, if you go to Mr Blair on the 5th and through to Monday the 8th, you will see that those days have been swapped also. That was on request of Mr Blair, my understanding is, who is in the Army Reserve - on holidays.

PN30

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In any event, you understand the nub of the issue here is that the union asserts a period roster is a master roster, or a period roster is to be subject to alterations in the same way as a master roster?

PN31

MR HANSON: Yes.

PN32

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which of those two?

PN33

MR HANSON: I think the union is asserting that a period roster is in fact a master roster and in either case, whether you call it a period roster over a four week period, or the master roster, it can't be changed without the consent of the union.

PN34

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You take me to the provisions of the EBA and the extract from your human resources manual that support the contrary position that I assume you take.

PN35

MR HANSON: Yes. I headed up a document, your Honour - - -

PN36

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could we start with the EBA? Is there anything in the EBA, other than a reference to rosters of these descriptions, is there anything in the EBA that talks about them being altered?

PN37

MR HANSON: Only the attachment 7.

PN38

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I have something in front of me called an attachment A7.

PN39

MR HANSON: That is it.

PN40

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Take me to what is in that that touches on this matter.

PN41

MR HANSON: Yes, your Honour. You have got the document that starts: Attachment A7 roster principles for CSC2s and 3s, TLOs and depot officers. If you go down to A7.7, that is the first touching on a master roster where it says:

PN42

Master roster shall be adjusted on the provision of 28 days notice ...(reads)... adjusted in the following manner.

PN43

A7.71, 72, 73, 74 and 75 then refer to the process for consultation and agreement on master rosters. If you turn the page, 8.78 - - -

PN44

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Is A7.8 anything to do with it, or is that just what you are taking me to?

PN45

MR HANSON: I am taking you to that - because I am saying this refers to a master roster.

PN46

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN47

MR HANSON: This one could be in contention. I will just read part of it to you, your Honour.

PN48

No alterations should be made to the hours of work of any employee ...

PN49

Then it goes:

PN50

Except in cases of sickness, accident, ...(reads)... the one altered, or by mutual agreement.

PN51

So you don't alter the hours of work on a master roster, or indeed, at this particular stage in a period, unless you notify the employee on the shift before the alteration takes place, or by mutual agreement. It is not "and by mutual agreement", it is "or by mutual agreement". The mutual agreement situation, if I could give you some examples, could be an employee has some form of emergency that requires them to be absent. They give very, very, late notice - and that happens from time to time in any industry - we have a line to fill. It could be that the roster clerk will see an employee coming in a couple of hours before their shift is due to start and say: We have got this difficulty can you do this and can you do that, and a person agrees. We take that to mean by mutual agreement.

PN52

As we understand A7.8, providing we give that person at least that shift's notice, except in the cases that are mentioned, you can do it. I would like to take you over to A7.22. It says:

PN53

Where a CSC2 or 3 shift becomes vacant at any depot ...(reads)... to fill the vacant shift in the following manner.

PN54

We would take that particular clause to say unless there is an emergency, or whether the cancellation of the shift isn't going to adversely impact on STAs delivery of service, then we can fill the shift the way that I have just described in STA 2, which was the period roster.

PN55

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Provided you follow the steps in 7.22? You offer it in the first instance in accordance with - - -

PN56

MR HANSON: No, we don't say that.

PN57

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do I make of the - - -

PN58

MR HANSON: We say:

PN59

Where State Transit, in consultation with the ...(reads)... of the shift for a short term absences -

PN60

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let me just read it again, sorry. All right. So you don't say when a shift becomes vacant and the exceptions do not apply, that the steps in 7.22 need be followed? That is not how you read that?

PN61

MR HANSON: Cancellation of the shift is not going to adversely impact upon our services.

PN62

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. But I don't need to worry about that, do I? We are not talking about cancellation of the shifts here, we are just talking about, as I understand your submission at the moment, a shift became vacant?

PN63

MR HANSON: Yes.

PN64

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that right?

PN65

MR HANSON: That is correct. Now, if we can just move on a bit, your Honour, if you go down to A7.23, and there is two points. Now, posted rosters are to show the line of work for all officers during the time of posting. Now, a period roster is 4 weeks and when they are posted, it shows the work that management has decided to put into play for the CSCs and admin staff at that particular time. If you just go to A7.24, and go to the paragraph above that, just the last paragraph in A7.23:

PN66

Once a period roster is exhibited, any alterations required to the hours of duties or days off are to be undertaken in consultation with the affected employees.

PN67

Now, my understanding on that particular thing, if you go back to STA2 where Mr Blair's rostered shift of 6 am to 1440 on the 19th was changed to a shift 5 am to 1310 because Mr Clements was off sick. Mr Blair was advised by Mr Moore on the Monday or the Tuesday, the 15th or the 16th, that we would have to fill that Mr Clement's shift and the fact is that Mr Blair did in fact undertake that shift.

PN68

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But that is what you say consultation with Mr Blair, you say that is adequate?

PN69

MR HANSON: Yes, that appears to have been and I'm that is the practice. I have to say this too and I would rely upon Mr Moore and Mr Blair for this, the number of CSC2s that we have at Newcastle Transit are only two, that is a Mr Blair and a Ms K Lynch. Now, both of these employees are fully qualified to do CSC3 work as well. This is where we get to another sticking point, your Honour. I have mentioned in my address to you, essential and non-essential shifts which the union, I think, disagrees with. For CSCs and indeed for Newcastle Transit, essential work basically revolves around duty in the control room.

PN70

In a control room they have contact with the bus operators, they know what is going on, absences are called in, delays are called in and the CSCs duties is to ensure that things are fixed up. They also operate the radio when and as required during those particular shifts. I have to say this, we can't operate without that control room being staffed and the duties undertaken. Now, the other duties of CSC2s would involve going out on the road, as it were. A bit of revenue protection out on the road, inspection of buses, checking on time tables, checking on the street furniture and things like that.

PN71

Now, I'm not denigrating or downgrading the importance of those duties, but when it comes to having a CSC2 out on the road, checking on a particular bus operator, or checking on time tables or having the control room unstaffed, there is absolutely no choice and no discretion, we must have that control room staffed. So that is what we say is the difference between an essential and a non-essential shift for a CSC - sorry, CSC2. Now, that period in question which was the 18th - 19th, Mr Blair was rostered for a 12, which was basically what we would call a non-essential shift.

PN72

It is a shift you do, it is important, but when Mr Clements called in sick that control room on the 19th was going to be vacant. Now, if you have a look at Ms Lynch under Ms - Mr Blair, in that last period, you will see that she was absent for that period. Mr Blair was the only person that we could put in so - - -

PN73

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, what about the other CSC3s performing the role that Mr - - -

PN74

MR HANSON: That would be an over type situation, your Honour.

PN75

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, yes. What about the situation of CSC3s performing the position that became vacant. In each case is your answer, they couldn't do it, because they would be working overtime.

PN76

MR HANSON: That is correct, overtime is - - -

PN77

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What about the ones that were rostered off that day?

PN78

MR HANSON: It would have been the same situation.

PN79

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, the rostered off seem to have been an after thought after the period roster was prepared, so did that come about through some arrangement these employees reached with someone or another that let us say a Mr or Ms Heaver was intended to have worked, but then had the day off. How would that have come about?

PN80

MR HANSON: You see that - perhaps at this particular stage if I could ask Mr Moore to address that question?

PN81

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, how would that have come about, Mr Moore?

PN82

MR MOORE: Your Honour, if you - the third line there, Mr Hughes actually went on holidays.

PN83

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN84

MR MOORE: The rostering principles say that that full line of work has got to drop down into Mr Heaver.

PN85

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN86

MR MOORE: The shifts that would - normally on the roster template - - -

PN87

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN88

MR MOORE: - - - that is exhibited there, the 11 and the 11th, then drop down to the provide line of Mr Lee.

PN89

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I see, and what about Duce?

PN90

MR MOORE: And Mr Duce has actually crossed those days, and he preferred to have those days off.

PN91

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN92

MR MOORE: All right, so - and also couldn't turn over in that particular case from the 11 to the 10, he wouldn't have had a 10 hour break.

PN93

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.

PN94

MR MOORE: So the only other option there was Mr Heaver as overtime and the election is to reduce overtime and take a non-essential shift out and provide an essential.

PN95

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN96

MR HANSON: Yes, your Honour, if I may just refer to one other document, the document that I handed up. Now, it is headed: Roster Principles for CSC2 and 3 and TLOs and Depot Officers. It has got on the left-hand side: Human Resources Workforce Management and on the right-hand side: Doc Reference Procedure 47.24. Do you have that document, your Honour?

PN97

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, it is marked STA1.

PN98

MR HANSON: STA1, thank you. I think there are perhaps the genesis for our dispute or disagreement comes out of this document, your Honour. If you read 1.0 introduction, this procedure provides operation managers with the roster principles as agreed, blah, blah. If you go to the note that says, that says:

PN99

Note, the attachment 7, which is the attachment to the enterprise agreement, is legally enforceable. This procedure is provided to assist and to advise.

PN100

If you go down to point 4, and you go to 4.1, employees rosters shall comply with the following principles and you go to 4.1 on to point 3 there, your Honour. That says:

PN101

Once a master (based roster as being prepared, it is known as a period roster).

PN102

Now, I for one can see how that could be interpreted as saying, now, a 4 week period roster is a base roster and I can also see how the union would say, you can't change a period roster if it is a base roster without the union's consent. However, I still go to the note in one, which says:

PN103

Attachment 7 is legally enforceable, this procedure is provided to assist and advise.

PN104

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Has this dispute come about because your roster principles contained within the document STA1 are arguably inconsistent with the EBA?

PN105

MR HANSON: I would say that particular 4.13, on its own, as it stands, is inconsistent with the rostering principles, attachment A.

PN106

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, well, maybe I should hear Mr Panigiris and we might come back to you again. Mr Panigiris - - -

PN107

MR PANIGIRIS: Thank you, your Honour.

PN108

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - what is this dispute all about from the union's point of view?

PN109

MR PANIGIRIS: Yes, your Honour, clearly there are three issues that are in dispute and on the basis of Mr Hanson's submissions, it appears now that there is a fourth issue and that relates to the staffing of the radio room at Newcastle which seems to be a part of this overall dispute in utilising CSCs in that particular clerical role. Can I say in relation to the first area of dispute and that is, what is a period roster versus what is a master roster. The reason why the State Rail Authority put out its interpretation documents outlining STA1 - - -

PN110

MR ..........: It is Transit, George, Transit, not State - - -

PN111

MR PANIGIRIS: State Transit, sorry, yes, I spend more time there than State Rail, it is an unusual one. But, anyway, State Transit, clearly there is no definition within the guidelines outlining the EBA as to what is a master roster and what is a period roster. However, the terminology used in the - in the STA1 document says; that a - once a master roster, base roster has been prepared, it is known as a period roster.

PN112

To me there is only one interpretation one can put in that. You have master roster, it then becomes a period roster on the basis of what applies through the process. We would say, taking that on face value at least, that is the way it is applied as a general rule. In relation to what flows from that, the question needs to be asked when you prepare a roster, you obviously prepare a roster on what is known as known work. In other words, work that needs to be done. That is the basis of a roster. You acknowledge that work needs to be done. You develop a roster around that.

PN113

Our friends in State Transit say that that is all it means, and that at the end of the day we will determine whether in fact that work is essential or not, and whether it meets the business requirement. Which then takes you to 7.22 of the rostering principles. The rostering principles there and the intent that applies in the CBD generally, is that all work that is outlined in a period roster in Sydney and the seven or eight depots around Sydney clearly indicate that where that period roster identifies that known work and there is a failure for any specific reason, it is covered on the basis of overtime.

PN114

However that principle does not apply at Newcastle. There is a general view up there that that necessity is not applicable at Newcastle, therefore when there is a cancellation the work is not covered. So on the basis of custom and practice on the interpretation of 7.22, in the metropolitan area, we follow the process outlined there, and we cover positions on that basis. To utilise CSCs in the radio room at Newcastle we would say that that is outside the scope of the CSC agreement anyway. CSCs are covered by this rostering principle and what applies in Sydney and the radio room here. The positions within the radio room here are covered by salaried clerical type people, not CSCs. That isn't the case and has not been the case for as long as I can remember.

PN115

However, in Newcastle, again they tend to apply a different principle. On the basis of taking a CSC off their line of work, they cover the radio room, thus leaving a vacancy within the CSC ranks, and they develop the view that that position ought not be covered because it is not that important.

PN116

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Tell me the radio room job is normally in the metropolitan area, one undertaken by whom?

PN117

MR PANIGIRIS: By clerical salaried people, not CSCs or TLOs or depot officers - which these principles apply - and the work of these individuals are outlined in those rostering principles.

PN118

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are all of these people under the same EBA?

PN119

MR PANIGIRIS: Yes, there is one EBA.

PN120

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I just don't have the classification structure in front of me.

PN121

MR PANIGIRIS: However, there are specific principles for the rostering of these principles and depot officers which don't apply to clerical officers. So we say that in relation to the application of the rostering principles and the covering of shifts, there is a very clear reason why the development of 7.22 right through to 7.22.7 were put in there. That was the process that needed to be followed for the purpose of covering vacancies within lines with the CSC 2/3 ranks. The final issue is simply this - and I don't want to get into the specifics about individuals - but as Mr Blair, or Ms Lynch or any of the other individuals up there - the principle is that to make a change you have got to consult.

PN122

The advice we are getting at the moment from our people up there is that there is no consultation. The matter is simply the business requirement is X and we will make those changes. Every time that is put on the table we have a dispute. We say that again, the document is very clear, that consultation must take place. It must take place with the affected employees. That is not occurring, it would be our submission to you. It is only occurring on the basis that we will do this on the basis of business requirements.

PN123

So in order to address this issue we have said clearly that the principles are there. In our view they are in black and white. The apply - this way in the CBD that is the way they have been interpreted since their application. We would not see any different interpretation to apply at Newcastle. Our view would be, of course, your Honour, if you look at the dispute settlement process - and it is part of the SRAs application to yourself, on page 5 - it says this at 8.5:

PN124

Work practice which exists prior to the dispute shall apply ...(reads)... or associated enterprise agreement.

PN125

We would say, your Honour, in this particular matter, that the application of these principles ought to apply to the working of rosters in Newcastle as they apply in Sydney.

PN126

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Tell me this again - I often have difficulty with understanding who in the classification structure is said to do what work, and what other people can't do and in this case, yet again, I need to better understand it. Just dealing with the control room job that became available as a result of an employee being sick - I had understood from something you said earlier that that is an administrative/clerical role?

PN127

MR PANIGIRIS: That is correct, your Honour.

PN128

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Not a CSC 2/3 role?

PN129

MR PANIGIRIS: It is not a CSC role, even though the authority has been utilising CSCs at the expense of cancelling their rosters. We say that that position ought to be covered by the respected classification which is a clerical/admin type position, as it is done here in Sydney. We do not utilise CSCs to cover - and the rostering principles, I would submit to you, do not allow that to occur. The rostering principles are clearly developed on the application of rosters for CSCs. So if you allow the employer to utilise CSCs to cover clerical/admin positions, then that allows that employer to have a vacancy within the CSC ranks.

PN130

Then the employer makes a determination whether in fact that position then becomes relevant for the purpose of covering. That will then allow the employer, in my view, to not cover that position, at the expense of covering that other position through the utilisation of a CSC and not a clerical/admin person. So there is an issue for us in relation to utilising this group who are specific in their roles in relation to revenue protection, in relation to on time running and the like - the bus running - then you are taking out of that role and saying: Well, that is not that important to us.

PN131

We say the principles clearly apply to CSCs and therefore they are within that framework and should not be utilised outside that area.

PN132

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you say that in the first place Mr Clements shouldn't have been rostered to have done the control room job anyway?

PN133

MR PANIGIRIS: That's correct.

PN134

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Because someone down the bottom of the roster, called a control room officer, should do that job. I don't know if there is only one or two? There appears to be only one of those persons, a Mr or Ms Boyd?

PN135

MR PANIGIRIS: The bottom part of that roster, Mr Boyd, is in fact a radio room operator, he is not a CSC.

PN136

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. But that is the sort of person who should be in the control room?

PN137

MR PANIGIRIS: Yes. A Mr Boyd type person.

PN138

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Or a Mr Perry type person who has got a ..... to his name.

PN139

MR PANIGIRIS: Yes.

PN140

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So if either of those are sick and one can't cover the other for one reason or another, or maybe both are sick, who covers them?

PN141

MR PANIGIRIS: We would say that you do what you do in Sydney - it is a clerical/admin position - you acquire that resource from the clerical/admin ranks within Newcastle. There are some 30 odd clerical/admin officers in Newcastle that can be utilised for that.

PN142

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I know there lots and lots of permutations in relation to the issues here but I am just trying to understand how you say, well it is all right, yes.

PN143

MR PANIGIRIS: Well, the point I make, your Honour, is simply that the development of these rostering principles were done over a significant amount of time involving both the unions and the services of retired Deputy President Riordan and we did it because we were down here almost every second day arguing about, you know, what is a principle and how should it apply and we thought the application was fair and equal within the metropolitan area. We now see a separate type application in Newcastle. So we would like to think that the reason we developed these principles was to avoid future disputation and their application should be across the entire State Transit.

PN144

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I suppose there is always a problem if the principles contained in administrative hand books are at odds with the EBA. I'm still thinking that they might be but I don't know. There are lots of documents here I need to absorb.

PN145

MR PANIGIRIS: We don't say that but the only area I would say, if there is an issue of interpretation, is that 4.13 where the employer in its manual said:

PN146

Once a master base roster has been prepared it is then known as a period roster.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I understand.

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MR PANIGIRIS: That is the clear interpretation. We accept that.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I just - well it might be what the EBA says as well or it might be - - -

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MR PANIGIRIS: It is not that defining, the EBA.

PN151

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, no. Well, that sentence doesn't occur in the EBA.

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MR PANIGIRIS: No.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Although master and period rosters are referred to. All right.

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MR HANSON: Your Honour?

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Hanson.

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MR HANSON: If I could perhaps shed a bit more light on the radio room, the operation of the radio by the CSC2s.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you talking about the control room?

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MR HANSON: Yes.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Try at least to stay with the same description as on documents because I find the detail that you have in relation how work is performed confusing enough, quite apart from using various descriptions of the same employees. So Control Room Officers, yes, what were you going to say?

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MR HANSON: Your Honour, we are in dispute with the ARTBIU Salary Division concerning the use of CSCs with all control room work which includes radio work at Newcastle but the dispute is not about whether in fact they do it, the dispute is about which shift they perform the work on. I have a document here which I am quite happy to hand up and show to anyone dated 16 November 2001 from the Rail Tram and Bus Union. It is signed by a Mr Jamie Clements, Industrial Officer, RTBU Salaried Professional Division. It says amongst other things:

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Further it was conceded by Mr Garret that the inclusion of radio operations in the CSC position description for Newcastle is not the CSC position description for Sydney buses. It was intended CSC3s to cover the radio operations on the so-called dog watch shift, that is 9.00pm to 5.00am and on weekends.

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He then goes on to say:

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We believe that the rostering of David Blair as a CSC2 as a relief for the radio operators outside these shifts does not come within the bounds of the CSC3 position description. Therefore Mr Blair should only be required to undertake radio duties on the so-called dog watch shifts 9.00pm to 5.00am and on weekends. Further Mr Blair should be paid at the CSC3 rate whilst undertaking radio duties and should be given back pay for the shifts he has worked when he has been required to operate the radio system.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is this 2001 dispute?

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MR HANSON: This letter is dated 16 November 2001.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that the same dispute here again? A re-run of this now, at least part of it, in 2003?

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MR HANSON: My understanding, your Honour, is - and I only got this document the other day when I was researching it - was that the dispute at Newcastle over CSC2s staffing the control room and undertaking radio duties was not about whether in fact they should in fact do that work but in fact what shift they should do that work on. Mr Clements in his letter maintains it is so-called dog watch 9.00pm to 5.00am and on weekends only.

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Now what we have maintained is, Mr Blair and indeed Ms Lynch or anyone else who was qualified to operate in a control room and operate the radio equipment, can be put on other shifts. But as I understand it also and in fairness to everyone at this bar table at the moment, it doesn't appear to be any other correspondence other than our reply which I just basically summarised to you - - -

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But is this dispute in the Industrial Commission or an exchange between you and the - - -

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MR HANSON: I think it is an exchange. I can't find any dispute going back to 2001 on that. Perhaps Mr Panigiris could enlighten us if there was. As he said he has been here for a long time.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know. I don't want to make it any more complicated but it has got some elements that sound like issues that are re-run again here. I don't know. Mr Panigiris do you want to say anything about the 2001 issue?

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MR PANIGIRIS: Look, there was an exhausting issue as I understand it back in 2001 in relation to the dog watch and the weekend type work and there was a compromise reached in relation to that arrangement but this is not about that. I mean, that is only a part of an issue. What we have got here is the utilisation of CSCs to fill these vacant rosters in that control radio room.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I understand.

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MR PANIGIRIS: And in order to do that you are not covering the position at the bottom end and we have got CSC positions that just are not covered and management are saying, we don't have to. And really that is the bottom line.

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THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll just adjourn into conference for a while.

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 11 DECEMBER 2003 [11.13am]

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INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #STA1 DOCUMENTS FROM WORK FORCE MANAGEMENT DOCUMENT DATED 31 OCTOBER 2002 PN11