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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 5704
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT ACTON
C2003/6211
AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS, ENGINEERING,
PRINTING AND KINDRED INDUSTRIES UNION
and
TOYOTA AUSTRALIA
Application under section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of a dispute (certification
of agreement) re Toyota Australia Workplace
Agreement (Altona) 2002
MELBOURNE
9.41 AM, THURSDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2003
PN1
MR M. ADDISON: I appear on behalf of the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union together with MR G. LARKIN and MR P. DAVIS and MR STEWART from the site.
PN2
MR R. DALTON: I seek leave to appear for Toyota. With me is MS R. WATERS.
PN3
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there any objection for the application for leave to appear?
PN4
MR ADDISON: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, I object to the appearance of Mr Dalton in this matter. I object on the basis of section 42(3)(b) and (c) which can be the only subsections which Mr Dalton could seek leave under. There is nothing special about the matter that is currently before the Commission. I don't see what Mr Dalton adds to the proceedings before yourself and on that basis we object.
PN5
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Dalton?
PN6
MR DALTON: Well, the application for leave is pressed on both of those counts. Firstly, notwithstanding it is a dispute notification involving one particular employee, the fact is that it has gone through the informal processes and now is going to be the subject of an arbitration that will have significant implications as far as my client is concerned. My client regards this matter as a very important one because it relates to the ability to transfer someone and also, you know, what particular payments etcetera, may or may not attach to that sort of transfer.
PN7
So having regard to the significance of the arbitration the application for leave is pressed on that basis. It is also pressed in relation to ground (c) - I think it is ground (c) - which is that while Ms Box, who is the Human Resources Manager, has previously been involved in appearing for Toyota in Commission proceedings, she has been dealing with various disputes at this stage which has made it very difficult for her to prepare for this case and in fact has asked me to prepare and present the case given those other commitments. She has had two Commission proceedings on. One that has gone on this week and one that I think is due early next week and she has also got a meeting with the State Secretary of the AMWU that is on this morning and I understand that she will be free a little later this morning but she can't be here right now so that is the basis upon which the application for leave is pressed.
PN8
MR ADDISON: Your Honour, I don't normally these days object to counsel appearing. I have almost given up on it, however, the legislation is clear that under subsection (b) the matter before the Commission must have special circumstances. In my submission there are no special circumstances here at all. It is simply a question of the application of the agreement to the particular circumstances which we are looking at. Effectively it turns on whether Mr Garcia is unreasonably withholding his agreement or not, in my submission, and that is not a matter that raises legal issues.
PN9
It is not a matter that raises significant questions that counsel can assist the Commission with. It is a fairly straightforward matter, in my submission, and therefore the circumstances are not special so we say under subsection (b) you shouldn't grant leave. With regard to subsection (c), subsection (c) says that:
PN10
With leave of the Commission if the party can only adequately be represented by counsel.
PN11
In my submission that is not the case here. Toyota has a significant Human Resources Department with a whole range of people in it who are practised and who regularly represent the company within this Commission and, in my submission, notwithstanding Ms Box's other commitments there are a swag of people in Toyota's Human Resources Department who can adequately represent the company in these proceedings, particularly given the nature of these proceedings so we say that you shouldn't grant leave to Mr Dalton. If the Commission pleases.
PN12
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I grant leave. We have a series of witnesses. I have received outlines of submissions from both parties and witness statements in respect of various witnesses. To make sure that I have got all the documentation, in respect of the AMWU there is the outline of submissions, the witness statement of Mr Garcia, a witness from Mr Alisic, a witness statement from Mr Davis and a witness statement from Mr Felton and one from Mr Marmara and one from Ms Martinovic. Is that all the submissions and witness statements from the - - -
PN13
MR ADDISON: If I can assist, as I understand it my friend doesn't wish to cross-examine either Mr Alisic, Mr Felton, Mr Davis or Ms Martinovic so we simply seek to tender those witness statements.
PN14
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So it is Alisic - sorry, who were the others?
PN15
MR ADDISON: Alisic.
PN16
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN17
MR ADDISON: Felton.
PN18
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Felton, yes.
PN19
MR ADDISON: Davis.
PN20
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN21
MR ADDISON: And Ms Martinovic. Jela Martinovic.
PN22
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. I will mark the outline of submissions of the AMWU as A4, the statement of Mr Alisic as A5, the statement of Mr Felton as A6, the statement of Mr Davis as A7 and the statement from Ms Martinovic as A8.
EXHIBIT #A4 AMWU OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS
EXHIBIT #A5 STATEMENT OF MR ALISIC
EXHIBIT #A6 STATEMENT OF NICK FELTON
PN23
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, from the company I have received an outline of submissions and also statements of Mr Harrod and statements of Mr Cimarelli. Is that all the documentation I should have received from the company?
PN24
MR DALTON: Yes, your Honour.
PN25
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. And both of those witnesses are for cross-examination are they?
PN26
MR ADDISON: Yes, your Honour.
PN27
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN28
MR ADDISON: Your Honour, if I just can, before we start, the attachment to Mr Cimarelli's witness statement, Mr Dalton assures me they were couriered to my office yesterday afternoon, and I don't dispute that, however I didn't receive them. I got the fax copy of Mr Cimarelli's witness statement and Mr Dalton has provided me with the attachments this morning on my request. I haven't had an opportunity of getting instructions with regard to those attachments and I would seek the matter be stood down for half an hour or so just so I can get some instructions on them.
PN29
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN30
MR ADDISON: And with that said then we are ready to proceed and I would seek to cross-examine both Mr Harrod and Mr Cimarelli.
PN31
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Do you have any objection to that course, Mr Dalton?
PN32
MR DALTON: Half an hour would be fine I think. The documents that - I think with the exception of one - they should already be familiar with but half an hour seems appropriate.
PN33
PN34
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will adjourn this matter until 10.20.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [9.51am]
RESUMED [10.26am]
PN35
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN36
MR ADDISON: Thanks, your Honour. Your Honour, I presume from the marking that we did earlier that the exhibits from the section 99 application are part of the exhibits with regard to this matter?
PN37
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN38
PN39
MR ADDISON: Thanks, your Honour.
PN40
Joe, can you repeat your full name and address just for the transcript please?---Jose Garcia, 2 Queensberry Court, Hillside.
PN41
And have you prepared a witness statement with regard to this matter this morning, Joe?---Yes, I have.
PN42
And have you got a copy of that before you?---Yes, I have.
PN43
Can you have a quick look at that Joe and indicate whether you wish to make any changes or not?---No, not really.
PN44
You are happy with it?---Yes.
PN45
Is it true and correct?---Yes.
PN46
Your Honour, I tender that statement.
PN47
PN48
MR ADDISON: Now, Joe, you say in that statement that you commenced employment with Toyota on 24 October 1983?---Correct.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN49
And you commenced as a tool maker die maintenance press shop?---Correct.
PN50
Were you a trades person at that point in time or a supervisor?---I was just a tool maker.
PN51
A tool maker. And you were then promoted?---To team leader.
PN52
Can you just run the Commission through your basic history - just a thumbnail sketch?---I started at Toyota, within a very short period of time I was promoted to team leader of the section and then I was promoted to group leader and eventually promoted to general floor person of that department.
PN53
Thank you. Now, in terms of your latest transfer which was the transfer into the press shop, can you tell the Commission how that occurred?---Okay. At the time Serge Beni was the senior manager in charge of press and body. I was a general floor person of die maintenance within the press shop and he approached me several times over transferring to production as he thought they needed - die maintenance was very successful at the time and he thought I would be a great contributor to the department. I expressed my feelings to the senior manager that die maintenance was a very comfortable position, I had only 20-odd people to look after, two very competent group leaders under me and I was involved in travelling overseas to Japan, Taiwan, South Africa etcetera in the buy of tooling for the coming models so I was - it is my trade. It was the job that I love.
PN54
Okay?---I was extremely happy in that department and I could see no incentive going into a department that had over 60 people to look after with a lot of human relation problems, productivity problems, human relations, etcetera so to cut a long story short there was no incentive for me nevertheless he continued to persist with convincing me to go to that department. After talking about it with my wife etcetera, I approached Serge Beni and said that I would go to the production and give it my 100 per cent with a condition that I would be promoted to a senior general floor person. He agreed and the transfer became effective.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN55
Right?---Time went by and I kept approaching Mr Beni and he said that he had some problems, that Mr Harvey - Mike Harvey, the director - was overseas and excuses just kept coming forward and forward and forward and at the time I was not a union member. Eventually - no, before that, even before that my direct manager was Gary Stanley which he responded to Serge Beni and Serge Beni said to myself, "Look, PMS is coming soon. It is time for PMS and that is the ideal time to justify to HR and my directors the promotion." I agreed. I told my wife. We opened a bottle of bubbly and celebrated and PMS happened and the words of my manager was, "Joe, I am promoting you to a senior GF." I was extremely happy even though it was over one and a half years down the track. Nevertheless that letter of recognition - a month went by and it didn't happen. I approached Serge Beni and excuses kept coming across. That was when I approached Peter Davis and joined the union a little bit prior to that since in the past I have thought I was under the impression that the company would look after me and there was not really a need for me to be in the union. That is what my senior manager always convinced me of.
PN56
Yes?---Eventually I joined the union. Peter there, he was follow it up and within two weeks I was sitting down with one of the directors, Mr Bernie O'Connor. Mr Bernie O'Connor asked me the same as what you have asked me now to tell part of my story and he say we will investigate and come back with his findings. We had a couple of meetings but the main meeting was with Peter Davis, which I believe is the shop steward for assembly, Mr Bernie O'Connor and Serge Beni. Mr Bernie O'Connor said that he believed a verbal agreement was made nevertheless he did not believe in deals even though Serge Beni came and offered me assistant manager's position in the press shop which I was not interested in. I am sorry, but that is not in this script.
PN57
Yes?---Said to Bernie O'Connor how come he was comfortable with a deal to promote me to a manager and not to a senior GF as the proposition was. I said that, nevertheless he did not believe in deals and if he went to the Commission because he was recommending a verbal agreement his senior manager would or would not say that he promised that position and eventually I - he gave me two competency skills for the bother of - so just a sweetener, as we can say, and I just got tired of pursuing the matter and that's how it is up to this day.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN58
Okay. So do I take it from that that it was agreed between yourself and management that you would transfer into the press shop?---Yes.
PN59
Yes?---Into the production press shop, yes.
PN60
Into the production press shop indeed. Now, you then - when was that? That was five years ago was it?---That was five and a half years ago.
PN61
Five years ago. And you say in your witness statement or you make reference in your witness statement to a manager who was appointed into the production press shop, Graeme - - -?---Graeme Hunter.
PN62
- - - Hunter. Can you tell the Commission the difficulties - no, there is no need for that. I understand from your witness statement that there were some difficulties with Graeme Hunter?---Yes. He was extremely difficult to work under his management style.
PN63
You raised issues with regard to that?---I raised issues to all of my relevant supervisors, managers etcetera and - - -
PN64
Yes, go on?---And not just myself, my other group leaders and team members, team leaders etcetera. There was no response so we had to continue working under such difficult conditions and we could see our department we come to love so much being undermined and going downhill so eventually there was no other alternative we could think of as to approach a shop steward, Peter Davis, and arrange a meeting with Mike Harvey, the director of the company which we had a meeting. Peter Davis, Jela Martinovic, Nick Felton and myself, we express all of our frustrations and our concerns towards our daily activities working under such difficulties with this gentleman.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN65
Yes?---We present a statement. They were made by team leaders in the afternoon shift calling us clones and if he had his way he would get rid of us and he would never have anybody train under us etcetera, even though he was solely in the area for less than six months at the time and he knew very little of our operations. Nevertheless that continued to happen with the full knowledge of our managers, senior managers, Human Resources, directors. Mr Harvey said he would investigate the matter and come back to us. This is over a year and a half - we are still awaiting that response.
PN66
Okay. Can I take you to paragraph 22 of your witness statement, Joe. Paragraph 22, you see on 22 June 2003 your doctor said you were suffering stress?---Yes. As we were waiting for Mike Harvey - which we couldn't go much higher than Mike Harvey - maybe we should have gone to the president, something which we didn't do but we were extremely disappointed and continued working under such difficult conditions. I used to - my record of absenteeism prior to the scenario of Mr Hunter coming into the place was - I had something like never seen it over 600 hours of sick leave would prove that my attendance to work was fairly good. I used to come up to work feeling sick. I used to drive up to the car park and before going through the gates actually vomiting and I thought - my wife could sense this and have an argument etcetera. I was reacting to my kids in a manner that I shouldn't have been so being frightened for my own personal condition and my relation with my family I had to go to my local doctor.
PN67
Okay. What did you say to your doctor was causing these difficulties?---The doctor is my family doctor and he knows me for over 30 years and he was quite concerned with my health and obviously he agreed that this is - I never had any symptoms like this before - and my medical records are free to be looked at - and in the past history there is no anxiety or stress so he said that definitely this was causing - the negligence of the company was really, even though he didn't say that, I am saying that but what he was saying that the whole scenario was causing this and he gave me some time off work and I was three weeks off work. I did not put in a WorkCover claim. I didn't want the company to think that I was maybe trying to put in a WorkCover claim so I just took out of my own sick leave, I took three weeks off. Then I came back to work.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN68
Yes?---After I came back to work Mr Hunter - we didn't have a lot of contact, not as much as we had prior to me going to doctor and things were reasonably not so bad and then my own assumptions is that high management has looked at all this history and thought, "Gee, we are really stuffed here so we had better do something about this. Better late than never," so Mr Hunter got sacked.
PN69
Yes?---And at the same time roughly my manager approached me and say you are burned out, there was no - you are burned out, you need to go to the body shop.
PN70
Can I just stop you there, Joe. Can I get you to focus in on the discussion with Cimarelli and that is contained in paragraph 25 of your witness statement. Can I just ask you how that meeting occurred?---He took me out from the shop floor and said, "Joe, can I have a minute," and we went to the - he took me into the canteen, body shop canteen upstairs. We sat down and said that he wanted me to go to the body shop because I was burned out.
PN71
Okay. What did you take him to mean by that?---He say, "You are burned out." I believe, as far as I know Mr Cimarelli for a long time since he's the one who made me GF prior from him leaving the press shop, so I think I know him quite well and I had the feelings that he could say a lot more than what he was allowed to but he said you are burned out, go to the body shop and in a year's time everything would be forgotten and you come back to the press shop. He didn't elaborate on that so I never really knew what he meant by that.
PN72
What did you take him to mean by saying, "In a year's time everything will be forgotten?---What I take it to mean, we all know that Mr Hunter was quite close to Mr Bernie O'Connor. Mr Hunter was put in by Bernie O'Connor and my own assumption is that Mr Bernie O'Connor made the decision according to the past and the negligence of the company not doing nothing about this in time and say well, get rid of Mr Hunter and you put him somewhere in the body shop because he probably will get a big head thinking that he got rid of a manager. That is my own assumptions. In other words I believe it is a payback for me to speak out the way Toyota has - always preaches to look after your team members and
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
employees, to not tolerate harassment in any way etcetera, etcetera, which is the opposite to what the company done in this case and yes, I was probably was quite verbal at times through my frustration and I believe that that's been seen as maybe being - maybe I should have just said nothing and keep copping it from Mr Hunter but I took - I feel very protective of my group leaders and my team members and my team leaders etcetera and in the department that I am very proud of and I couldn't not let somebody - what's the word - destroy what we were working so hard to achieve so far as team work, good human relationship with the people on the floor etcetera, and this man was just destroying all that that we worked so hard for.
PN73
Can I take you to paragraph 26 of your witness statement?---Yes.
PN74
You say:
PN75
Renato approached me four or five times over a period of about a month.
PN76
?---Yes.
PN77
Along the same lines. Can you tell us who Renato is?---Renato is my senior manager.
PN78
He is your direct manager is he?---My direct manager, yes.
PN79
And what his surname?---Cimarelli.
PN80
Oh. Okay. Got you. And there were four or five separate discussions were there?---Yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN81
Can you tell the Commission about those discussions in broad terms?---Well, I would be working on the shop floor and he would approach me and little innuendo like, "Don't forget about our little conversation," and other times he grabbed me and he kept talking about it, "I needed to go to the body shop," and I ask him why would you - we are in a situation in the press shop now that we have no manager, nobody actual manager since Graeme Hunt was dismissed, we under men on group leaders, we have one of our most experienced group leaders who has been in the place longer than I have, Mr Nick Felton, he has been appointed to change leaders which takes him out of production altogether, we have 70-odd people to look after, only one group leader, even though he's an extremely good group leader and trying very hard, he's only been appointed I believe about less than two years, we have an acting group leader who is a team leader from the shop so really we should have been having three fully qualified group leaders. Our general foreman and a production foreman, we are running a place of 70-odd people, we are making more cars than ever before under extremely difficult circumstances with such machinery that we have and with one group leader and one GF so we find ourselves doing team members role, team leaders role, group leaders role, managers role etcetera.
PN82
Okay. Mr Cimarelli has been the manager since January. Is that correct?---Since January, yes.
PN83
Yes. He had done a stint in the press shop prior to that?---He was the manager of maintenance prior to that, I believe about five years ago.
PN84
Mr Cimarelli will say that he has been reassigned for press shop and that he was last in the area some four years ago. Would you agree that that is about right?---Yes.
PN85
Then Mr Cimarelli will say also that in re-entering the press shop, he was of the view that the employees in the plant had developed in their positions to the point where fundamental activities were no longer interesting, challenging or even seen as necessary. What do you say to that?---Sorry, can you repeat the question again?
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN86
Mr Cimarelli will say that in his view when he re-entered the press shop that the employees in the press shop had developed in their positions to the point where fundamental activities were no longer interesting, challenging or even seen as necessary. Do you agree with that point of view?---No, I don't.
PN87
No, you don't? Mr Cimarelli will also say that there were some discussions with senior management about the need to change things in the press shop and that senior management wanted to implement rotation of people into other jobs. Was there any discussions with you about that?---No. Later when Peter Davis got involved there was a more formal plan put by management, yes.
PN88
Now, the meeting you had with Mr Cimarelli, I think you said in - was that in June or July or later?---The meeting?
PN89
The meeting that you have been describing?---The meeting was about the same time of - roughly around the time of Graeme Hunter getting terminated.
PN90
Okay. That was three weeks after 22 June was it? You say in your witness statement that Graeme Hunter's employment was terminated - - -?---Yes, he was because on 22 June, that's when I went on the three weeks off. At that time there was no talk - Mr Cimarelli was actually asking me a couple of times to go back to die maintenance.
PN91
Okay. Now, you say the meeting with Cimarelli happened in July?---Yes, something like that. Yes.
PN92
You say that in paragraph 25 of your witness statement:
PN93
July 2004, I would take the pressure off and everything would be forgotten.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN94
?---Yes.
PN95
Now, in that meeting - sorry, I withdraw that. There was then a further meeting and you say in paragraph 27 of your witness statement, that you had a further meeting on 22 September?---Yes.
PN96
And in that meeting Chris Harrod was present?---Yes.
PN97
As was Renato Cimarelli?---Yes.
PN98
And yourself and Peter Davis?---Correct.
PN99
Yes. And in that meeting you were told that you would be seconded?---Yes.
PN100
Is that correct?---That's correct.
PN101
Now, can you just tell the Commission what happened in that meeting on 2 September?---Well, in that meeting Mr Chris Harrod showed - there was - okay, sorry.
PN102
If you need clarification it is fine, you can ask me?---No. Okay. In that meeting Mr Harrod said that they had a plan to transfer me to the press shop so I could learn new systems, be exposed to some new managers. Only in that respect it make no sense to me because in the - I probably been exposed to more managers than anybody in the press shop since we have been - in the five years I had five different managers.
PN103
Yes?---Some of them even coming from the body shop itself - two of them actually. So he keep elaborating that I needed to go there and that somebody from body shop to come to press shop but that meeting, I don't think they mentioned who the other person was and yes, it made no sense to me. The reasons I refused.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN104
Okay. Can I ask the witness be shown - and I know this document hasn't been tendered yet - the witness statement of Chris Harrod and the attachment?
PN105
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you have a spare copy, Mr Dalton?
PN106
MR ADDISON: There is only the one attachment, isn't there? Yes. I am happy to show the witness mine?---Sorry.
PN107
Could I ask you just to have a quick look at that document, Joe?---Yes.
PN108
Have you seen that before?---Yes, that's the document I thought I had with me. That's what was shown on - - -
PN109
And that was shown to you on 2 September?---Yes.
PN110
You will note it is dated 2 September '03?---Yes.
PN111
And was this a proposition that was put to you with regard the secondment?---Yes.
PN112
Okay. Thank you. Now, you say in the second paragraph of paragraph 27 that regardless of your feelings the transfer or the secondment will become effective on the 16th?---Exactly.
PN113
With or without your agreement?---Exactly.
PN114
Right?---Even though I expressed my feelings why I thought the real reason for sending me there was for speaking out on behalf of my team members and myself. I mean I have been in the company for 20 years plus and after 20 years in one department dealing with higher management, you get to know what is a legitimate reason and what is not.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN115
So do I take it from that that you thought the transfer was illegitimate?---Exactly.
PN116
Yes. Now, what happened from there? When you refused to move what happened from there?---Well, from there he - in that meeting he expressed that regardless of my feelings, what I thought, the 16th was the deadline. It would happen with my consent or without my consent or regardless of how I felt about it. I came along that meeting. I was quite stressed and really I was feeling quite stressed and sick and I ring up Cimarelli I think and I told - no, Cimarelli wasn't around so I rang up the next manager, Don Adelwohrer, and I told him that I was going home because I wasn't feeling well and the next day I went to my doctor.
PN117
And?---And that's when I expressed to my doctor what I was feeling and he gave me a certificate to stay home and I lodged a cover claim in.
PN118
And that was a certificate for stress was it?---Yes.
PN119
Yes. So that was a repeat of what had happened on 22 June?---Exactly and prior to that.
PN120
Okay?---Prior to that only that it is not about since the beginning of Graeme Hunter stepping in. If you can see my records from the time back within a month of Graeme Hunter coming into the section, my absenteeism increased dramatically. A day here, two days there. It was because of the difficult times that we were having.
PN121
You said that you thought the move was illegitimate and Mr Cimarelli will say in his evidence that the reasons for the move are these. He will say
PN122
There is a generic job description for a general foreperson.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN123
Are you aware of that?---No, no I am not.
PN124
No? Okay. He will say that:
PN125
There are some aspects of the job description that you have not fully developed.
PN126
He will say - - -?---He did mention that later but not at that time.
PN127
When did he mention that?---Later when - I think with the reasons like you are burned out, that they knew that that wasn't going to hold very much in a place like this so they had to come up with some other reasons or counter measures as you might call it.
PN128
He will say that:
PN129
He sees real opportunities for you to develop in some of the areas within the job description with a 12 month stint in the body shop.
PN130
He will say:
PN131
For example, that standard work procedures, combination tables, key point charts and instructions are all more advanced in the body shop and we envisage that Joe could benefit from seeing how these operate.
PN132
What do you say in regard to that?---I say to that that Mr Gary Stanley which we had as manager for nearly five years - he is no longer with us - he was manager of the body shop for many, many years and he introduced the same style and the same ways of recording which he brought with him from the body shop so I can't understand that.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN133
Can't understand that? He will also say that you:
PN134
...would gain a greater appreciation of press quality versus weld quality and how results of press shop flow into weld.
PN135
?---Well, I find that difficult to believe also because coming from die maintenance in my 20 years I have been involved in many, many model changes, been in die maintenance for nearly 15 years, I have been involved liaising with the body shop on panel fitment, on schemes on quality since we produced the dies which make the panels that they put together. So we always been involved with the body shop on the outcome and what their concerns are etcetera, etcetera, so that did not make sense to me either.
PN136
It doesn't make sense either? He will also say that:
PN137
We want you to contribute to the body shop work area by redesigning it, by ensuring it has the right equipment and proper standardised work procedures and training plan.
PN138
?---That was never, never discussed with me, firstly, and secondly, in the metal finish department which he was talking about there is no input that I can take there whatsoever.
PN139
So you don't believe you could do that?---No. I consider I would have no benefit to improve what they have been doing already for 40-odd years.
PN140
Okay. Mr Cimarelli will also say that:
PN141
You would be fully exposed to all health and safety committee functions with a view to running the production safety improvement plan for standardised work.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN142
What do you say to that?---When Gary Stanley was here I was actually the appointed person to have weekly meetings, along with Mr Nick Felton and people who are on work cover injuries, return to work co-ordination etcetera so I was already involved with that prior to Renato coming to the press shop.
PN143
So are you saying that you were already involved with health and safety committees in the press shop?---I was fully, now I am not since we are so much under-manned. We find ourself not doing things that we used to do, not because we don't want to do it or because there's no need for it, just because we haven't got the sufficient supervision to be able to embrace all that.
PN144
The next point Mr Cimarelli makes seems to be a bit strange. Are you currently involved or have you been involved in significant projects?---Significant projects? Yes, I have.
PN145
Yes, you have. Okay. So Mr Cimarelli will say that if you are involved in significant projects in the future, which you should be given that you are a general foreman, that you need to gain a full understanding of material handling in the body shop. He will say that that means the kanban system, material flow and work place - sorry, workload/work estimation. What do you say with regard to that?---In regards to kanban system, we body shop and they being our customer, that is something that we are involved in daily.
PN146
Are you saying that you currently work with the kanban system?---Yes.
PN147
Yes. Okay. And do you have an understanding of material flow?---Yes.
PN148
And do you have an understanding of workload/work estimation?---Of course. As far as what the ..... manager is concerned, yes, and with the flow to the body shop.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN149
And do you have that through the press shop role?---Yes, it's part of our project.
PN150
Is the role with regard to those areas, kanban, material and workload/work estimate, different to your knowledge in the body shop as it is in the press shop?---It might be different but not quite related to our operation.
PN151
Now, Mr Cimarelli will also say in his evidence that on 4 September - this is paragraph 20 of his statement which you haven't got, Joe, so don't worry about it - that on 4 September Mr Cimarelli met with yourself and Peter Davis and Peter Davis provided a copy of Toyota's response with regard to a grievance. Did you ask Mr Davis to file a grievance for you?---Yes.
PN152
Yes? And the response, which is RC4, which is in a different block - can I ask the witness be shown RC4?
PN153
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What are you asking him to be shown, sorry, Mr Addison?
PN154
MR ADDISON: RC4 which is the fourth attachment to Mr Cimarelli's statement.
PN155
Now, can you just have a quick look at that, Joe. Tell us if you recognise it?---I haven't seen this before.
PN156
Well, you should have seen it - - -?---Number 4 you said?
PN157
Number 4, yes. You should have seen it according to Mr Cimarelli?---
PN158
Technical officer transfer into press shop, maintenance -
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN159
It is headed - - -?---Engineer.
PN160
It is headed effectively on the right hand side of the page, grievance received on the 2nd of the ninth?---Mm.
PN161
Response given on the 4th of the ninth. Is that the right one? Have you got the right document? Yes, that looks like it. Mr Cimarelli will say that you were given a copy of that on 4 September?---No, I can't recall seeing these.
PN162
You have never seen them before?---No.
PN163
No? Okay. Well, I will just leave that. Leave that aside. Now, on 15 September - Mr Cimarelli will say on 15 September there was a further meeting where Mr Harrod attended, also Ms Box, the Human Resources Manager, Mr Larkin, where Mr Larkin requested that the status quo be maintained while the dispute was being resolved. Do you recall that meeting?---Yes.
PN164
Can you tell the commission what occurred at that meeting?---At that meeting we basically went through my concern of how it did not make sense to me, how it was affecting me, so all those issues I already been through before, management - Mr Harrod, Mr Renato, they seem to be very cold and the human factor did not seem to make much matter to them. Geoff Larkin, that's what he is - Peter Davis, they say this course should be maintained but I think they say it was not possible because Frank was coming over. I can't really recall it all.
PN165
Okay. So do I take it from that answer that Toyota rejected the proposition of maintaining the status quo. Is that right?---Yes.
PN166
Yes. Okay. Now, can I ask if you know a Ms Waters?---Yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN167
Yes? And Ms Waters, according to Mr Cimarelli, conducted an investigation with regard to your complaints that you were being harassed and intimidated and that the move was part of harassment and intimidation?---Yes.
PN168
Did Ms Waters speak to you as part of that investigation ?---Yes. To me and Peter Davis.
PN169
And Ms Waters apparently, according to Mr Cimarelli, has come to a decision as part of the investigation or as the conclusion of the investigation, that there is now basis for your allegations of harassment and intimidation. Did Ms Waters talk to you about the conclusions?---Yes.
PN170
And what did you say to Ms Waters?---Well, she wouldn't want to give us a copy of the conclusion so she told us about it and it is demoralising what - the sort of investigation will scare it out, an investigation where the team members, the team leaders, my group leaders were involved in it. There was no statement taken from them. I mean if that investigation was carried out by a group leader towards an incident of a team member of the show floor, I think the group leader should be on a final written warning for incompetence. That's how bad he was.
PN171
Now, you said Ms Waters refused to give you a copy of the conclusions?---Yes.
PN172
Did you request a copy?---Yes.
PN173
And when did that happen? A ballpark is fine, Joe?---You have got me with dates.
PN174
Was that three weeks ago, four weeks ago, six weeks ago?---That was while I was still off work so no, I had already been back at work for four weeks so that would be about seven weeks ago I suppose.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN175
About seven weeks ago. And you say there were no written statements taken?---There were no written statements from all the people concerned, from the team leaders that make those statements about Mr Hunter calling us clowns etcetera - I am sure you have the statements here.
PN176
Yes?---There was no statements taken from - only from me, not from my group leaders who were victimised as much as I was. There were just taken from shop stewards, who they were very much aware of it, Mr Harrod. There was no statement taken from the team leaders who made those statements which you are in possession of. There was no statement taken of the team members and all those other personnel who are fully involved on a daily basis so the only statement to run away with is mine so the outcome was just pretty close to disgusting.
PN177
Now, when you asked Ms Waters for a copy of the final statement and she refused?---Yes.
PN178
Did you ask her why you couldn't have one?---She said because - I am not 100 per cent sure but the feeling I got is that some very important people were on some documents, I mean I had very senior managers and directors there. Also one thing that is very stuck in my mind is the statements for investigation so if I ask the general manager or director did you say that, obviously they are not going to say yes, are they, so that stuck in my mind too. The whole investigation was ridiculous so - which we can obviously see that Human Resources is not a go-between department, between team members and management, not it is not. Human Resources is just there to protect higher management.
PN179
Thanks for that. Now, the dispute between yourself and management with regard to this transfer has it been through, to your knowledge, all of the processes in the dispute resolution procedure?---It has not.
PN180
Sorry?---It hasn't.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN181
Well, excluding the Commission proceedings?---Yes.
PN182
It has?---Oh yes of course.
PN183
Yes. And the highest level prior to the Commission, as I understand it, is the Problem Resolution Committee. Is that right?---That's right.
PN184
Yes. And there has been a meeting with the Problem Resolution Committee with regard to this matter?---Sorry, I got my mind on 100 different things. Repeat the question.
PN185
Has there been a meeting with the Problem Resolution Committee with regard to this matter?---Has there?
PN186
Yes?---Well, I don't think they have been following it, no.
PN187
Did you have a discussion with Mr Marmara with regard to your issues?---Yes.
PN188
And what did you tell Mr Marmara were the issues with regard to your refusal to transfer?---Well, I told Mr Marmara the manager feel very bitter about - 20 years in the company, I believe giving my 100 per cent and many a time putting company before family and so I feel very hurt by the true reason why they want to transfer me. That's the main reason but obviously I am not going to deny that but financially will hurt me greatly.
PN189
Okay. So there are financial issues for you?---Yes, there are.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN190
Why do you say there are financial issues?---Well, I've been in the place for a long time, I know the sort of projects that are within and in the future and I know that the overtime - it will be regardless of - they have been saying that they have zero overtime planned. They have been saying this for the last 10 years even though we are working six, seven days a week, 12 hours a day - 24 hours a day. So I know for a fact the overtime is quite secure so obviously it is not right to work so much overtime. It isn't right and if we didn't have to man many levels, there wouldn't be a need to work so much overtime. If we had the number of group leaders, the number of team leaders etcetera but nevertheless this is why we have this. We are under-manned. We are under-supervision on the shop floor and that means the supervisors and GFs, they have to role for team members, team leaders, fork life driver, etcetera. So though we are maintaining this amount of cars and we have machinery that should be in museums in the press shop even though they are beginning to get some more equipment, there is no way we can do without working this amount of overtime. I have put up to management what is the solution and one of the solutions they gave me is to - the people who are working so much overtime which company should be very thankful for otherwise they wouldn't be making any cars at all and the people who refuse to work overtime to force the people who work very little or no overtime so the other ones don't have to work as much, I say how are you going to do that and I was told by general manager that they haven't got a magic wand. So the situation is we are working a lot of overtime, the overtime should be there a long time and then when you work such little overtime, yes, it is not easy but it is also for people who want to take that opportunity - in my case for example I can give myself the luxury of - we are six of us at home so I did buy a house so my kids they can have their own individual bedroom instead of living in bunks for the last 10, 15 years.
PN191
Yes?---I can give myself the luxury of sending my daughter to university. I can give myself the luxury of my wife doesn't have to go to work so she can look after five of us which in itself is a full time job so yes - and I could also - we were planning that in 40 years in this country which I consider myself my home and I consider myself an Aussie even though with an accent - - -
PN192
You and me too?---But nevertheless I would like to go to Spain. We have never been. We had plans to go next year and yes, the timing is horrendous. I have had to throw that out the window maybe like in the old song, maybe my son will be able to see where his father used to live.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN193
I just want to take you back a step before I go the next step. Ms Walker, does she have a human resource role?---Yes. She is human resource person for the press shop.
PN194
Okay. Is she involved in this transfer matter?---She was in some of the meetings, yes, that we held like the one where the status quo was proposed, yes.
PN195
So do I understand Ms Waters to be - - -?---No, sorry, she was not. It was Heather Box, sorry.
PN196
Okay?---But yes, she is a worker. In doing my statement she was fully aware of this transfer, yes, because I mentioned it. She's the one who virtually took the statement to carry out the investigation.
PN197
Okay. So Ms Waters was doing both the equal opportunities, if you like to use that term, investigation at the same time as doing the human resource role, a week after the transfer?---Mm.
PN198
Now, I just wanted to go forward again - I back-tracked there for a second because I had forgotten something. Can I take you to RC6?---My statement?
PN199
No, you have got a copy of Mr Cimarelli's statement there with attachments?---See that's why I am a little bit lost - - -
PN200
If you go to the attachment number 6 of Mr Cimarelli's statement?--- - - - because I haven't had a chance to look at this at all. We got it this morning down stairs. Number 6.
PN201
Number 6, yes. George will help you. That is it, George?---Okay. Yes?
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN202
Yes. Go on to the table?---Yes.
PN203
Now, Mr Cimarelli will say that as part of these proceedings he sought the payroll department to do a review of the overtime for the last 12 months of various people. If you have a look at the table Mr Cimarelli will say this is the result of that review and the total overtime hours worked by these individuals between 1 December last year and 30 November this year - he will say that he has been instructed by the payroll department that Mr Darren Wylie, who is in the body shop and who is a supervisor, level 5, worked 715 hours and .84 hours, whatever that is. Sorry, it is probably 715 hours and 50 minutes or thereabouts of overtime in that period of time. Mr Bruce Smith, who is once again a supervisor 5 in the press shop worked 1121 hours, that yourself worked 594 hours over that period of time, that Frank Baldwin, who is from the body shop and is a supervisor 6 rather than 5, worked 926 hours and that a Bill Baker, who is in the body shop as well, worked 741 hours of overtime. Do you think those figures are correct?---That's wrong. The only one I agree with, Bruce Smith, does exactly the same role as what I do. We basically work the same overtime. Actually I work probably more than he does with the exception of the last 10 weeks prior to this month that I came back that I had been on sick leave and obviously I haven't worked any overtime. I have my payslips there next to Nick so I would like to see - we can very easily add my payslips since they're there. I would say that they are wrong.
PN204
You say they are wrong?---Yes.
PN205
Can I ask what earnings are under the enterprise agreement if you work normal overtime. A ballpark is fine?---Roughly just about $70,000.
PN206
About $70,000. Can I ask what you earned last year?---Just under $122,000.
PN207
So do I take it from that that you earned $50,000 in overtime payments?---Yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN208
Now, in terms of the body shop, Mr Cimarelli I think it is, or is it? Just bear with me a second Joe. Mr Dalton will say, as part of his submissions, that overtime levels worked by general floor persons in the press shop over the last 12 months are similar to the levels worked in the body shop over that same period of time. Do you agree with that?---No, I don't. We work this year every single Saturday production and the majority - I haven't got the exact figures but close to 50 per cent of all the Sundays, during the week. We actually even get people from the body shop to assist us in our operations because we cannot get by as it is because obviously the body shop does not work production so we get their personnel to assist us. I am not talking at supervisor level, I am talking about team member level.
PN209
Now, this matter - - -
PN210
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Addison, can I ask you when you are referring to someone is going to say something, if you could actually refer to that document?
PN211
MR ADDISON: Yes, sorry, your Honour.
PN212
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That would assist me.
PN213
MR ADDISON: Mr Dalton will say in his outline of submissions, I think it is point 25 - yes, it is point 25 and it is the first, second, third, fourth point in point 25.
PN214
Now, Mr Harrod - if you can just bear with me - Mr Harrod will say in his evidence that there was an offer made to you - and this is paragraph 26 of Mr Harrod's evidence that an offer was made to you on 7 October 2003 in terms of seeking your - sorry, I withdraw that. Do you recall an offer being made to you on 7 October 2003 from the company with regard to the transfer? Do you recall that the company, in terms of its offer, said to you it would give you a written guarantee to return to the press shop after 12 months?---Yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN215
That they would give you training and support for the transition into the body shop?---Yes.
PN216
That they would maintain your 15 per cent early start loading for one month?---Yes.
PN217
That they would give you financial counselling to help you deal with any reduction in overtime earnings if that eventuated?---Yes.
PN218
That they would make available a hardship loan if you needed one?---Yes.
PN219
And that they would give you a gradual reduction from a 5 am start to a 7 am start and that would occur over one month?---Yes.
PN220
Now, when that offer was made to you, what was your response?---None.
PN221
None?---Not interested.
PN222
Would that proposition rectify the financial impact?---Of course not.
PN223
It wouldn't?---No, it wouldn't.
PN224
Now, if you were to take a hardship loan for instance, what is the repayment proposition with regard to that?---I have no idea.
PN225
You have no idea?---No.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN226
Did the company tell you what the repayment proposition was?---No. I didn't actually meet - nobody approached me with these. I guess what you are saying it was just in a bit of paper but it was not - verbally this wasn't done.
PN227
Mr Harrod will say in his evidence that he supported the following offer which was made to you on 7 October which is those points that I have just gone through. Was that put to you in writing?---I have seen it in writing somewhere, yes.
PN228
And have the elements been explained to you?---Well, it explains itself.
PN229
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Garcia, does the body shop's hours of work start later than the press shop?---Yes, they start at 7 and they finish at 3.30. Sometimes they work an hour, an hour and a half max. We start at 5 and finish at 4.30 so we work daily 3 hours. The body shop will work from none to an hour, an hour and a half sometimes but not on a daily basis. We do it on a daily basis, every day.
PN230
You do what on a daily basis?---We start at 5 and finish at 4.30.
PN231
Why does the press shop start earlier than the body shop?---To be able to make sufficient stock so the body shop can continue with their operation otherwise we will be actually stopping it.
PN232
MR ADDISON: Now, I want to take you to paragraph 29 of Mr Harrod's witness statement which you haven't got, Joe, but Mr Harrod will say that he rejects any arguments that you might have with regard to financial disadvantage and he rejects that for a number of reasons. First of all he says that you will be paid in accordance with the agreement classification level and that is true, isn't it?---Mm.
PN233
Secondly, he says you have no entitlement to overtime and you should never assume that you have a guaranteed level of overtime. Can I ask how long this overtime that you have referred to, you have worked?---How long for?
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN234
How long has it been at this level?---At this level? Well, 5 o'clock start, that started this year, just a year before even though we done it in the past. Before that was 6 o'clock instead of 5 o'clock in the morning till 4.30 every day regardless since ever I can remember since I have been in the press shop.
PN235
So do I take it from that that you have always worked this level of overtime?---Yes.
PN236
Okay. And Mr Harrod will also say that overtime levels in the weld area have historically been comparable to those in the press shop?---No, that is totally incorrect and that can be proven. The body shop will maximum work maybe one or two Saturdays a month maximum and usually is five hours shift. Rarely they will work two five hour shifts which is 5 am in the morning, 5 in the afternoon.
PN237
Mr Harrod will also say that overtime has been reduced across the board and that there are measures in place which will ensure overtime in the press shop falls over the next year?---Like I said before, zero overtime policy has been seven days a week, 12 hours a day, since ever I can recall in the press shop. So yes, the direction has always been from higher up that we have to reduce the level of overtime and I agree, but nevertheless the press shop is not equipped to produce the amount of cars that we do produce. The machinery is not equipped. We have very old machinery, machinery that is very expensive to install. I give you an example. We have an eight-year-old line which produces the old - you must have seen it in the paper - does the whole side of a car. We only have two presses when we should have four presses so the parts have to go around the merry-go-round twice. The machine we have is very antiquated. Yes, we are installing robots slowly but with installations right now we have installed a robot in one of the lines but because of the timing and the circumstances we are finding ourselves that line is producing not even 50 per cent of what it should be producing so we have to run the jobs that run on that line, we have to run manually on a line that increases the labour - we need double the labour to do that. It is just a horrible scenario so yes, the introduction of new equipment is good long term but all these things that we introduce and this new equipment, it will be a long time before we can start seeing the fruit from it so yes, the overtime will probably increase. That will so - so they can outsource but outsourcing parts
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
is more expensive than paying overtime to our current employees, one, and secondly it is a big slap in the face for the mother company T and C, that means that management cannot produce what it should be producing and you have to save face. That's a no-no so I can see the overtime in the press shop will be ongoing for a very long time unless they take the business from us and the Arab countries, they stop importing our cars.
PN238
Okay. So do I take it from that - I am anticipating an objection from my friend here - - -
PN239
MR DALTON: Yes, you can take it.
PN240
MR ADDISON: - - - that you are saying the overtime level will not reduce unless there is a significant capital injection?---Yes, and that will happen so the overtime there - I have asked Mr Chris Harrod himself and they rely on each other to come up with a strategy and the strategy was to - the people refused to work overtime because this is the scenario we face. A lot of people do not wish to work overtime. That is a fact of life.
PN241
Now, this overtime issue, has that been put to Toyota?---Yes.
PN242
Yes. And have there been any compromises discussed between yourself and Toyota to resolve this issue?---With higher management, yes, we have all the time.
PN243
And what are those compromises that have been put?---The compromises - well, the objective obviously is to reduce overtime - - -
PN244
No, Joe, I think you are still on the last couple of questions ago. What I am trying to deal with is you say that you will be financially disadvantaged by a move to the body shop?---Yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN245
Now, saying here that has been raised with Toyota. I think you have agreed that it has?---Yes.
PN246
I am asking if there have been any discussions between Toyota and yourself, through your representatives obviously, with regard to that matter. I think you have said yes. And I have asked you if there have been any compromises put forward by yourself or your representatives to resolve that matter and I am trying to find out what those compromises are, if any have been put forward?---There was different ideas put forward by Charlie and Peter himself of me going to the body shop and compromising by coming in weekends to the press shop on weekends and so work in the both places from time to time.
PN247
So effectively are you saying that the compromise is that you would work in the body shop Monday to Friday - - -?---Yes.
PN248
- - - and then you would work back in the press shop to maintain your level of income?---Yes, but they obviously didn't agree to that but by the same token I don't really agree to that either.
PN249
Okay. Can I ask if that compromise was accepted would that be an acceptable resolution to yourself?---No, not really. Like I said, financially it plays quite a part. I won't deny it but the other issues, they hurt a lot more. The moral issues.
PN250
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The other issues are - - -?---The reason I believe why they want to transfer me to the body shop.
PN251
MR ADDISON: Harassment and intimidation payback as I understand it, your Honour.
PN252
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes?---So both the issues are very important. Not just one.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN253
MR ADDISON: Now, I just want to take you finally to this point. Mr Harrod will say - point 31 of his statement, your Honour - that you are a long serving employee, that you are very effective as a supervisor from a technical viewpoint. He will also say there is no doubt in his mind at least that you stand to benefit from a rotation into the body shop and that would expose you to more developed systems. Employees who are used to these systems, newer ideas - let me take you through them one at a time. I think that is probably the best way. Mr Harrod says that you will, in his mind at least, benefit from an exposure to more developed systems. From your knowledge with Toyota, are there more developed systems in the body shop than there currently are in the press shop?---No, I don't think so. I think - - -
PN254
MR DALTON: Well, I object to the question. The witness has never been there. He has only worked in the press shop so he just can't answer the question in the way that it has been framed?---I am there on a daily basis, liaising with one and the other.
PN255
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hang on. You can - - -
PN256
MR ADDISON: I accept my friend's proposition. I accept that proposition and it requires me to ask Mr Garcia a couple of questions before I get to that point.
PN257
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN258
MR ADDISON: Mr Garcia, are you familiar with the processes and the procedures that occur in the body shop?---Yes. When Gary Stanley was their prior manager I used to report daily on quality and problems that the body shop had experienced from some of their problems we might have passed to our customer.
PN259
Okay. How long ago was that?---When Gary Stanley was there it would have been roughly about three years ago.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN260
And do you currently have any contact with the body shop?---I have no advice reporting but I have daily contact with the body shop as I am in the going between phase, as well as my group leaders, for problems they might have as they are my direct customer and so yes, I would be visiting the body shop on a daily basis at least half a dozen times looking at shortages, concerns, safety issues, etcetera.
PN261
So do I take it from that you are in constant contact with the body shop?---Yes.
PN262
Yes. Okay. Now, I will re-ask the question I asked. Given the fact that you do have a knowledge Mr Harrod says that in his mind at least you would benefit from exposure in the body shop to more developed systems. From your knowledge of the systems in the body shop and the press shop are the systems in the body shop more advanced - or more developed. I apologise?---No, they're not. They just have - they have a system that we always had but we are not - as we have very little direction from higher up. We are not having meetings as we had on human relations, on down-time, on productivity. Those meetings used to be when Serge Beni was there, was a daily and a weekly meeting. We had casings, we had all this sort of activities, the production was - there was no need to work as much overtime because of the act of the implementations we had. All that now is just not happening because the present manager is not directing.
PN263
Now, Mr Harrod will also say that you will benefit from exposure to employees who are used to these more developed systems. Do you want to respond to that?---That's not so. Not true.
PN264
It is not so?
PN265
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where is he saying this?
PN266
MR ADDISON: Paragraph 31, your Honour.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN267
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Yes?
PN268
MR ADDISON: I thought I had said that.
PN269
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I must have missed it.
PN270
MR ADDISON: He will also say that you will benefit from exposure to newer ideas.
PN271
Can I ask you from your knowledge of both the press shop and the body shop, are there newer ideas in the body shop than there are in the press shop?---They do different roles. When they are in supervision they do a - there is a different process. We make the parts. They put them together so obviously that KPI would reflect different items but as far as new idea, no. Like I say we had a manager from the body shop for five years, a senior manager from the body shop for the same number of years and we always been following the direction from the body shop when Serge Beni was a senior manager of the body shop.
PN272
Okay. Now, I think you might have already answered this in the preamble to these questions but Mr Harrod will also say that you will benefit from gaining a perspective on how the press shop results can impact downstream in the body shop?---Yes, as I said, I have been involved with trials and new models and my role in die maintenance was exactly that so I have been exposed to that for many, many years.
PN273
Now, Mr Harrod will finally say that if the rotation does not occur, so if you stay where you currently are and Mr Baldwin stays where he is, that the new systems, and I presume he means the new systems to be implemented in the press shop will simply present themselves as changes in the press shop and that you will be required to implement and manage those changes where the employees are unused to these new things. This will be very challenging and without the benefit of it - some experience in the body shop where many of these things are already
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
bedded down and are familiar to the employees - you might find that very difficult. Do you agree with that?---The systems in the press shop, we have the correct systems. Of course everything can be improved. We just need proper manning levels and management to hold meetings with us and tell us the directions they want to go.
PN274
So are there significant - given the fact that you do have daily contact in the body shop, are there significant differences - sorry, I withdraw that. Are there differences between the way the processes work in the body shop as to the press shop?---There are differences but they cannot be related.
PN275
Okay. Are you aware of those differences?---Yes.
PN276
And are they - - -?---Transferable? No.
PN277
They are not transferable?---No. Can I elaborate on that.
PN278
Yes, absolutely?---In the press shop we have lines of presses which we make parts for the car. In the body shop they put them together so they have stations. They have stations where this person would do this bit and this person would do this bit until they go to final finish which they go up into the paint shop.
PN279
Yes?---Right. So they have the jig lines, the main body lines, the robot lines, final finish, etcetera, with little bits and pieces. So what we do today on this line we are making fenders and next we are making hood unders or we are making roofs and then all of a sudden we have to stop this line because some of these people are required there, so the process is completely different. The body shop relates more - I can understand this being made with somebody from assembly because in assembly they do the final bits for the car part - it is the same systems as the body shop. They are at stations - fixed stations. So maybe a transfer from assembly to body shop would make more sense to me than from the press shop. From the press shop it is completely different, different environment.
**** JOSE GARCIA XN MR ADDISON
PN280
So - no, I withdraw that. I have got nothing further, your Honour. I will hand you over to the tender loving care of Mr Dalton, Mr Garcia.
PN281
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will just take a brief adjournment.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.45am]
RESUMED [12.00pm]
PN282
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Dalton, is Mr Addison back?
PN283
MR DALTON: I think he will be with us very shortly.
PN284
PN285
MR DALTON: Mr Garcia, you started in 1983 at the company. That was in the press shop?---Correct.
PN286
Yes. And you had a toolmaking job at that time?---Correct.
PN287
Yes. And you have been a general foreperson since 1992?---Roughly - yes, 10 or 11 years.
PN288
So you have got a lot of experience in the press shop having been there for over 20 years, haven't you?---I think so, yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN289
Now, the role of a general foreperson, I think you said earlier you weren't aware of a general job description. Is that you are not aware of something in writing on the job?---No, I am aware of that.
PN290
You are. Okay. I am just going to ask you some questions about the role. One of the important aspects of the role of course is that you are able to make decisions about the operations?---Exactly.
PN291
Yes. And to do that you need to have very sound knowledge of the production process in the particular area that you are responsible for?---Yes.
PN292
Yes. And having spoken to managers in preparing this case they believe that given your long experience in the area that you have a good knowledge of the parts production process?---Well, yes.
PN293
Yes, you would agree with that. And that involves just the knowledge of the machines and how they work?---As far as a role is, yes.
PN294
Yes. And you have got a good knowledge of how to set the dies and - - -?---Mostly with the dies because I come from the die maintenance area, not the general maintenance area. General maintenance looks after the presses.
PN295
Yes?---I have basic knowledge on the mechanical part of the presses.
PN296
Okay. And you know how much equipment and manpower is required to get the best out of the production line?---Mm.
PN297
Yes. And so that is an important area you need to be proficient in if you are going to be a general foreperson?---Mm.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN298
Yes?---Well, to be able to know how many people you need to produce whatever part, yes.
PN299
Yes. And the role goes beyond that though, doesn't it? It goes beyond the, I guess the ability to make operational decisions?---Under normal circumstances, yes. But we don't work under normal circumstances in the press shop.
PN300
All right. But you know, don't you, as part of the job you are expected to have a leadership role in other areas such as training, human relations, planning?---Mm.
PN301
Yes. So one of the aspects of your role is to plan and develop and implement, with your team of course, systems - - -?---It should, but it's not.
PN302
That is part of your job description though, isn't it?---It is and it should but it is not.
PN303
Are you saying it is not happening?---No.
PN304
No. All right?---Do you want me to elaborate?
PN305
Yes please?---Okay. Under normal circumstances in the press shop we should have a general production manager, which we haven't got. We should have a GF which we have. That is myself. We should have three group leaders, which we haven't got. Sufficient team leaders, which we haven't got so the way that impact on my daily role as well as my group leaders is that on a daily basis we are probably 10 per cent - - -?---
PN306
Tied up with operational things?--- - - - of our role and 90 per cent filling up the gaps of roles that they are not there.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN307
Yes?---They are vacant, yes.
PN308
Because the supervision is undermanned at the moment in press shop you are finding yourself tied up mostly with the operational aspects of your role?---Exactly.
PN309
Yes. All right. But you would acknowledge, wouldn't you, in the normal sense a general foreperson is supposed to be a little bit detached from the operational things?---I agree entirely.
PN310
Yes?---When I was in die maintenance I was doing my role as a general foreperson.
PN311
Yes?---In production I have never been doing the job of a general foreperson, just the job of a - most of the time full-time group leaders with my other group leaders, team leaders role and team members role.
PN312
Okay. Are you familiar with the expression standardised work?---Yes.
PN313
Could you explain to the Commission what your understanding of that term is?---Well, I understand it as a job. Obviously there is a problem so we investigate the problem. You can come up with a counter-measure, then it's proven and then it is proven and then it is standardised in the process of the standard charts so the operators will follow it step by step so everybody will do their role in the same way.
PN314
All right. So having identified something that can be - - -?--Improved.
PN315
- - - improved and having worked out with your team how that might be done better, you then document it so that all people in that production area can apply that system?---The same way every time.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN316
So you don't have to continue to have to solve that problem every time you people come in for example?---Exactly.
PN317
All right. And it is not just limited to dealing with problems, is it?---No.
PN318
It can be used to continually improve the way production works?---Exactly and health and safety issues are on that.
PN319
Yes?---Any operation, yes.
PN320
Quality?---Quality.
PN321
And productivity?---Exactly.
PN322
Yes. And it is an important part of your role, isn't it, to I guess consistently ask your self how each of those areas might be done better?---Exactly.
PN323
And that is an important principle of the Toyota way, isn't it?---Yes.
PN324
I think the Japanese term for continuous improvement is "kaizan"?---Exactly.
PN325
And you use that term a lot at work?---Yes.
PN326
Yes. And so the development of standardised work is an important tool in continuous improvement?---Yes.
PN327
Yes?---A part of it, yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN328
Now, I think in your discussions about the context in which the company wanted to move you temporarily from the press shop into the body shop that they explained to you that they thought that the press shop wasn't as strong in standardised work and other sort of - I think the visual levels - - -?---Displays, KPIs.
PN329
Yes?---Is that what you mean there?
PN330
Yes, all those sorts of things - as in other areas?---No, I was explained that I needed to go to the body shop because I was burnt out.
PN331
That was the only thing they ever said to you?---That was the most strongest bit, yes.
PN332
Sorry, the strongest thing to you?---Yes.
PN333
Okay?---The strongest point put across. The most honest one put across by them was that I was burnt out.
PN334
That is the one that sticks in your mind?---That's the one that came across as the most legitimate from their point of view or excuse or whatever you might want to call it.
PN335
From your point of view?---Yes.
PN336
Okay. My question is directed at what actually happened as well and you will remember that in discussions with you about the context in which the company wanted you to move out of press shop for a temporary period into the body shop was that they thought that you would be exposed to more developed standardised work, KPI, charts and those sort of things?---No, it was to be exposed to different style of management.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN337
All right. So it was never mentioned to you that they thought that if you moved into the body shop temporarily that you might gain some exposure to standardised work that you might be able to apply when you came back to the press shop?---No, it was just mentioned to be exposed to a different style of management and basically in the way the do things in the body shop which are not quite related.
PN338
All right. I think you have got a copy of Mr Harrod's statement?---Mr Harrod's statement and Mr Cimarelli's, we got just prior to come up here so I am not very familiar with them.
PN339
Okay. Do you see the attachment to Mr Harrod's statement?
PN340
MR ADDISON: The back page of Mr Harrod's statement?---Yes, this one was later during the course of - - -
PN341
MR DALTON: Yes, around September?---This was - - -
PN342
Sorry, did you think my question was limited to when the issue was first raised with you?---Yes.
PN343
I am talking all discussions with you leading up to and including the meeting in early September when the company asked that you move into the body shop I think by 16 September?---Mm.
PN344
Do you recall that they were talking about the opportunity for you to get exposure to standardised work in other sort of systems that had been bedded down in body shop?---To other systems? Yes. To standardise work? No, that wasn't mentioned, just to other style of recording which it would be because it's a different environment with recording different things.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN345
Yes. Mr Cimarelli, who is the senior manager in your area, he says that having been in different places he believes that the press shop could in fact improve in the areas of standardised work and recording and measuring things and also retaining the knowledge that we talked about a little earlier?---Mm.
PN346
That is his opinion. Do you agree with that opinion?---No, I don't agree with that opinion.
PN347
But of course you would accept that that is the manager's opinion and that has to be addressed, doesn't it?---Sure.
PN348
Yes. All right. You would also accept that the press shop could improve and in fact it is important that people like you are open minded about how it could improve?---Of course. Everybody can improve. Every department can improve. The moment we stop improving we don't succeed.
PN349
Yes. That is right. Now, you know that over the years you have been in press shop, particularly in recent years, there have been attempts made by the company to introduce changes for that very purpose, to try to improve the performance of the press shop?---How far back are we talking about?
PN350
Let us say the last few years. I think you have referred to the manager Graeme Hunter that you didn't get along with, he was an example of a manager who was trying to introduce some changes to the area, wasn't he?---Yes.
PN351
And I think you said that there has been up to five managers that you have worked with over the years?---Yes, we all worked with five managers over the years.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN352
All right. And none of the managers have been content to just let things just slide along without looking at how things might be improved?---If I can elaborate on that. When Gary Stanley, the manager we had before Renato, we had our Japanese adviser, Mr Hide Nozawa, he fully introduced the word "kaizan" that we all know about it and we all know the meaning but he truly introduced it and got involved and the press shop was a lot better place in every respect that it is now and everybody was involved from group leaders to GFs to people on the shop floor. They all had input. They all had been given the opportunity to have that input so they took ownership, they were proud of their daily activities because they had a chance to contribute. Unfortunately Japanese advisers, they rotate every five years. They go back to Japan and we get a new one. The present one we have has got no influence whatsoever in that respect and unfortunately the managers at the time in the months after that did not learn anything from that man that put in a lot into the press shop and since then - with the managers we have had since then, there is no involvement. There is no direction whatsoever so we all know in the press shop very well what has got to be done and what we should be doing, what we are not doing and it is a fact that the problem, - we are very lack of direction. We all know what we should be displaying. We all know what we should be recording. We all know what we should be doing but there is just no direction and because - this is something that I believe the GF should be very, very well involved and driving. Let us not just leave it to the managers. The managers just hang about with the managers. This is something from group leader to GF should be driving.
PN353
Yes?---But it is very difficult to drive it when you are doing a team member's job just because they would not put sufficient people in the right places so we can all do our job successfully. We all know what we got to do because we done it before.
PN354
We all agree, don't we, that there is a need to look at "kaizan"?---Desperately, yes.
PN355
Yes. And that the ideal situation is for a general foreperson to be leading that?---I agree, 100 per cent.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN356
Yes. All right. Now, Mr Graeme Hunter was one of your managers and the style of his leadership was not agreeable to you and other members of the supervisory team in the press shop. Yes?---To every member that actually cared about the press shop, yes.
PN357
All right. He wanted to implement changes and things that he saw as improvements but the style with which he was dealing with the supervisory team caused conflict. Is that right?---He wanted to - not introduce changes. He hasn't really introduced any changes. He was just there I think just to disrupt production.
PN358
Well, that is - - -?---I can't recall any changes that he tried to implement and please, if you can highlight one of them - - -
PN359
Well, he wanted to do things at times in a way that might have been different to the way you wanted them done?---Such as?
PN360
Well, I don't have a specific example. I am asking you whether that is right or not?---If he did try to introduce anything significant to the press shop I am sure the senior managers will know about them so maybe they can elaborate.
PN361
Now, you said that he got the sack?---Yes.
PN362
You don't know that though do you?---He told us.
PN363
Well, Mr Harrod says that he resigned so you are not able to say whether that is right or not are you?---We are only saying what the man said himself. They tapped him on the shoulder and say, "This is it."
PN364
Now, when you raised concerns - - -?---I am not in a position to call the man a liar.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN365
Now, when you raised concerns about Mr Hunter's leadership style the company listened to your concerns - - -?---No, they didn't.
PN366
They didn't listen. I thought you mentioned a meeting that you had or a couple of meetings that you had with Bernie O'Connor?---Oh yes, they listened but not respond, yes.
PN367
All right. Yes. And Mr Hunter isn't employed by Toyota any more is he?---No, he's not.
PN368
No. He is not your manager?---I may be wrong.
PN369
He is not your manager is he?---Now? No, he's not.
PN370
No. Renato Cimarelli is your manager, isn't he?---Yes, he is.
PN371
Do you have difficulty in dealing with Mr Cimarelli?---I never had difficulty with Renato and no, I haven't got any difficulty. He's quite pleasant to work with.
PN372
Okay. Now, the proposal to transfer you out of press shop into body shop, that happened in early June according to Mr Cimarelli's statement. If you could go to paragraph 8 of his statement. I think you have got a copy of it there. Do you see that at the top of page 4?---Yes, I am reading it now.
PN373
All right. He says on or around 5 June he requested you to come in and meet with him and it is in that meeting that he raised with you the company's plan to rotate you into the body shop. Does that sound right, the timing of that?---The dates I am not quite sure but I remember meeting with Mr Cimarelli, yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN374
All right. And at that stage he says that your initial reaction was quite neutral but the next day when you came in to discuss with him the rotation you were upset and you told him that you thought that it was payback because you stood up to Graeme Hunter. Is that right?---That's correct.
PN375
Yes. And so you thought that you were being victimised by senior management as part of the fall-out from the, I guess the clash between you and Mr Hunter?---That's correct.
PN376
Yes. Now, you had a significant clash with Mr Hunter shortly prior to Mr Cimarelli actually raising this rotation with you, didn't you?---I don't know what you call significant but yes, we had one of many daily ones, yes.
PN377
Well, it was one that led you to be off work I think at the time Mr Cimarelli raised this issue with you. He called you in from stress leave. Is that right?---When I can hear the one that it is it will probably refresh my memory. Can I - - -
PN378
I beg your pardon?---I had so many clashes with Mr Hunter, if you please elaborate on which one it was it will probably refresh my memory.
PN379
Well, the one that led you to go off on stress leave. The one that you refer to in your statement?---Yes.
PN380
Yes?---Yes, that's right.
PN381
Okay. And you were off on stress leave until 22 June?---That's correct.
PN382
Yes. You didn't take stress leave from 22 June?---That's right.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN383
All right. And Mr Cimarelli says that he raised the rotation option with you in early June so you were actually off work at that time I think?---Yes.
PN384
All right. So actually the raising of the rotation occurred fairly shortly after you had a major clash with Mr Hunter that had led you to go off on stress leave?---No. When Renato talked to me I was already at home because he called me at home.
PN385
Yes. So it happened, I am saying, some time shortly - your meeting with Mr Cimarelli happened some time shortly after you had gone off on stress leave?---Gone on sick leave the first time, yes. Okay, yes, on stress leave. That's right.
PN386
All right. So the latest incident that you had had with Mr Hunter was fairly fresh in your mind when Mr Cimarelli raised with you the rotation proposal?---The rotation proposal - I can't really recall that
PN387
Sorry? You can't recall whether it was fresh in your mind?---No.
PN388
This only happened in June this year??---No.
PN389
Well, you remember it specifically in your statement. You say that you had a real blow-up with Mr Hunter and it led you to go off on stress leave?---Yes, that's right.
PN390
And that shortly after that incident Mr Cimarelli has raised with you the proposal to rotate into the body shop. Yes?---That's right. Now, I recall.
PN391
Yes. All right. So based on that timing I am suggesting to you that when the rotation thing was raised with you that it was fairly fresh in your mind the problems and the issues that you had had with Mr Hunter?---Yes, can I elaborate on that?
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN392
Well, I just need an answer to my question. Is the answer yes or no?---No, because now I recall.
PN393
You need to answer the question?---There is no yes or no here. Mr Cimarelli called me from home. He asked me to meet with him. It was up the front of this, yes, and Mr Cimarelli started talking about - I thought he was calling me about the incident with me and Mr Hunter and we sat down, he did mention about me going to the body shop and I was confused. I am going on stress leave because I have this huge problem with Mr Hunter and this guy wants to talk to me so I said to Renato, "This doesn't make sense. You are saying you are concerned with my health because I had this incident with Mr Hunter and you are talking to me about going to the body shop and what I am going to say next, it make sense. I am not supposed to tell you this but Mr Hunter is going to get the sack."
PN394
So the answer is yes, isn't it? The issues with Mr Hunter were fresh in your mind so the answer to my question is yes?---Yes, at that stage I was in shock. He told me he was going to get the sack, Mr Hunter, so there goes the answer to this question and to the question prior to that when Mr Harvey said he did not get the sack.
PN395
All right. So when you responded to Mr Cimarelli the next day and you didn't want to rotate?---Of course, I would have went home and said to my wife, "It doesn't make sense." I am in stress, they call me at work. Instead of talking to me that he is going to fix the problem with Mr Hunter, he is telling me and when I push the issue why are you not talking about Mr Hunter, you tell me he is going to get the sack, of course, that's it. Somebody sent Mr Hunter up the street, Mr Joe out in a hole in the body shop. That's why I got so upset. That's why I got so infuriated. Of course everything clicked in.
PN396
Yes, you have drawn the connection for what you see is a connection?---Yes, exactly.
PN397
Yes. Okay. So you think that this is all payback?---Yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN398
Because of the short time gap between what happened with Mr Hunter - - -?---Not just me but another 74 employees in the press shop including all my supervision and union reps.
PN399
Yes. And you have raised that specifically with Mr Cimarelli?---Yes.
PN400
Yes. And in subsequent meetings you have raised that repeatedly not only with Mr Cimarelli but also with Mr Harrod?---Yes.
PN401
Yes. And repeatedly they have told you that the reasons they would like you to rotate are in fact for your career development and so that they can benefit from your exposure to a different area, haven't they?---Yes, they have said that.
PN402
That has been their consistent response?---Yes, they have said that.
PN403
Now, it is clear, given the fact that we are still here, that you don't accept that response do you?---No, I don't accept that response.
PN404
All right. So you presume that Toyota management is motivated by a desire to, what you describe I think as, pay you back. A pay-back?---Toyota management is doing the opposite to what they're preaching and I have records going back - - -
PN405
You will need to answer my question, Mr Garcia, which was a fairly straight one?---Yes, payback.
PN406
So you think it is a payback?---Exactly, yes.
PN407
All right. Has Mr Cimarelli ever been directly involved in the issues that you have raised with Mr Harrod and the issues that I think were ventilated with Mr O'Connor?---He was in the press shop at the time.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN408
No, I have asked you a question whether he was ever directly involved in that?---Yes.
PN409
He was?---Yes.
PN410
You raised these issues with him, did you?---Yes. When Mr Cimarelli - at one stage I had these statements from the team leaders - I had a run in with Mr Hunter and I was a little bit upset and Mr Cimarelli asked Renee to investigate this matter because I had an issue with Mr Hunter so Mr Cimarelli and that's good, so straight away he reacted and he got Renee to investigate this matter which he will have records of and my words to Renato was, "That is good. At last we have a manager that follows up with an incident so please can you follow up these statements made by the team leaders from the afternoon shift about calling us clones with your present manager which was Graeme Hunter," and his response was, "That was a problem of the past management, not mine"
PN411
Well, the issues that you have raised with - - -?---So your answer is yes, I had these issues that and they were discussed with Cimarelli, yes. That is the answer.
PN412
All right. But the concerns - when you raised your concerns about Mr Hunter's style and I think you and some group leaders and team leaders had put some statements to senior management, Mr Cimarelli wasn't involved in that process was he?---When the initial statements about team leaders were raised, no, Mr Cimarelli was working for the assembly department or somewhere in that department, yes.
PN413
Yes, that is right. So the only direct involvement he has had has been I think earlier this year - - -?---When I asked him to investigate, yes.
PN414
- - - when you asked him to investigate a particular issue that you had had with Mr Hunter. Is that right?---A big issue. The statements by team leaders calling me and my group leaders clones and all those things and he declined to investigate.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN415
Sorry? Mr Cimarelli said he, "I am not investigating that"?---Because that was a problem of the previous senior manager even though Mr Hunter was still working under him.
PN416
All right. Now, Mr Chris Harrod, all right, let us see. The two people who are involved in the decision to temporarily transfer you from the press shop to the body shop, Mr Cimarelli, who we have just discussed, and Mr Harrod so I will ask you the question about Mr Harrod. Was Mr Harrod directly involved in the issues that you had with Mr Hunter?---Actually involved with me? The answer would be no but as the chain of command goes, as I raised the issue with my manager, the issue escalates straight away so I am pretty sure - knowing Renato I am pretty sure he would escalate that.
PN417
You didn't meet with Mr Harrod regarding the airing of your grievances about Mr Hunter's management style did you?---Not directly.
PN418
You didn't meet with him, did you?---No, not directly. I respect - - -
PN419
How did you - - -?---I respect my management and I do not jump over managers.
PN420
Okay?---I go through my manager and this was a little more money had to go to him.
PN421
Yes, and we have already discussed how following the issues that you have raised, Mr Hunter doesn't manager you any more?---Exactly.
PN422
And is not, in fact, employed at Toyota any more? Yes?---That's correct.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN423
All right. Are you able to point to anything that indicate - other than the timing of Mr Cimarelli's request that you rotate, are you able to point to anything that Mr Cimarelli, or Mr Harrod have done, or said that supports your assumption that they are interested in paying you back for issues you raised in relation to a manager who is no longer employed by Toyota?---No. No, just in talking I can't see any - anything they can - they can need to see that there are developments since they been in the role for only - for only a very short period of time, only a few months, and all my - all my appraisals, etcetera, indicates how well I'm doing in the press shop and - - -
PN424
Well, on your latest appraisal you refused to participate, didn't you?---Exactly because I was going to be appraised by Mr Graham Hunter.
PN425
Well, yes, but - no, but you took that up with Mr Cimarelli?---No, I didn't. Mr Graeme Hunter - - -
PN426
Mr Cimarelli signed your document, didn't he?---Yes, but Mr Hunter take it to him. I didn't - I did not talk with Mr Cimarelli at all about the matter.
PN427
And the general - as a general foreperson you refused to participate in a performance review?---When I was going to be reviewed by Mr Hunter, yes.
PN428
Now, the company in the discussions with you, has given you a number of reasons why they would like you to move out of the press shop into body shop, haven't they?---The reasons you mentioned before, yes.
PN429
Yes, all right. And you believe - did you not accept that they are good reasons?---I - I don't - I don't accept that they are legitimate reasons.
PN430
That is not the question I asked?---Again, no, I don't accept they are good reasons.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN431
Okay. Do you accept that management is entitled to form a view as to how they might get the most out of their leadership team?---My level - my level is the GF and involved with all these things you're talking about, no, they make - they are - they're not being legit.
PN432
No, that is not the question I asked: do you accept that management is entitled to decide how they would get the best out of their leadership team?
PN433
MR ADDISON: Your Honour, I object to that question. That is more a question of law than anything else. This witness isn't qualified to answer that question. There are some general propositions that can be put. That is not one, in my submission.
PN434
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you say, Mr Dalton?
PN435
MR DALTON: It is not a legal question. It is asking whether he accepts it, or not?
PN436
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will allow the question.
PN437
MR DALTON: So do you accept that managers can decide?---Not in this situation.
PN438
You don't accept that they can do that?---Not in this situation.
PN439
All right, but do you accept as a general proposition that managers can decide what is required for the development of a general foreperson, such as yourself?---That is not the other way. The other way we discussed, we involved the team member, we set up the goals, we involved the team member as I said - - -
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN440
Yes?--- - - - and then a mutual agreement - is a mutual agreement where it makes sense to the manager, to the supervisor. We all understand the task; we all understand where we are supposed to go and we go one directions. I've been 20 years, yes, I've been 20 years in the press plant. This is - this is what we have always used for, in any level, involvement, not dictating.
PN441
Well, you are not suggesting that you haven't been involved?---No, I haven't been involved.
PN442
You haven't been involved in this process?---I've been dictated; "On the 16th you will go to the body shop."
PN443
But there were discussions with you - - -?---No.
PN444
- - - from early June?---No, sir.
PN445
You have already agreed with me on that?---They were not - you may call them discussions, I don't call them discussions.
PN446
Sorry; they were pretend discussions?---A discussion is a two-way communication with mutual agreement and mutual understanding of the other person. That did not take place.
PN447
But you have already - - -?---That was an information station with a set date to go. An information station with a set day to go. "This is the way - this is the way we want to do it. You go on this date." To me that's not - is not two-way communication and too, understanding.
PN448
Well, Mr Cimarelli - - -?---To what shall I go?
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN449
Well, Mr Cimarelli is going to give evidence that says that he had a number of discussions with you and in those discussions no specific date had been set to transfer you, so he was raising with you why he thought it was a good idea that you move into that area?---Because I was - - -
PN450
Do you disagree with that?---Yes, because I was burned out.
PN451
Sorry, that is the only thing he said to you was that you were burnt out?---That was - - -
PN452
In all the discussions you have had with him?---That was the only honest one. I - - -
PN453
Sorry, that is the only one that you think?---Mr Cimarelli - Mr Cimarelli is a good man. I wouldn't put him in the past. Unfortunately, this time he's only the carrier pigeon. He's just the messenger.
PN454
All right, so you are just convinced that the company, Mr Cimarelli and Mr Harrod - - -?---I'm convinced.
PN455
- - - are wanting to pay you back?---No, I'm sorry, no you - no. Mr Harrod, they're only just the messengers. And, of course failing - failing - - -
PN456
So there are people higher then them who are telling them to - - -?---Yes.
PN457
- - - to rotate you out because they need to pay you back?---Exactly.
PN458
Okay?---Mr Graeme Hunter gets the sack; Joe Garcia goes to the body shop.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN459
Right?---Later, people will not think too much of a job - I not get up ahead.
PN460
And you say that management can only develop a leader such as yourself; will you agree to that particular - - -?---I don't understand the question?
PN461
You don't accept that management can transfer you for development reasons, or any other reasons unless you agree to it?---I been - - -
PN462
Is that your position?---I been transferred before, several times and have agreed entirely. I was in the body - I was in the press shop. I was - - -
PN463
You need to answer the question that I asked?---Yes, but it make sense to me. This one does not. This one is total legit, therefore, no. I don't - - -
PN464
Yes, so you are saying that you don't have to go anywhere unless you agree with it; is that right?---No, no, no, no.
PN465
Is that your position?---Unless it makes sense that that is the - is going to be beneficially for myself, or whatever the person may be for the company, through agreement, agreement between two parties.
PN466
Yes, so your answer to my question is, "yes"?---No. In this case, no, because I don't agree with it.
PN467
Yes. You say that unless you agree with it, management can't tell you to do anything. They can't move you?---No, no, unless it makes sense - unless it makes sense that it's going to be good for the department, beneficially for everybody. This is not the case.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN468
And who decides whether it makes sense, or not? You? Is that right?---No, a combination of - a combination of both parties.
PN469
All right, well, the company - - -?---A combination.
PN470
The company thinks that it makes sense?---Yes.
PN471
All right?---But not the company, these two gentlemen through the work decided - thinks they make sense.
PN472
Yes?---They're not being honest. I don't believe they have been honest. I don't believe they are right.
PN473
All right?---I think they are making a great mistake, and obviously they are, because - - -
PN474
So you don't think that they actually believe that they have got good reasons to move you into a different area?---That's right.
PN475
Okay. Now, is it fair to say that there are three things that are driving your reaction to the company's proposal to transfer you? The first one is that you think that it is payback - we have already established that?---Mm.
PN476
The second one is that you don't trust your management because of, I think, the fact that - well, you say that they didn't honour a commitment to make you a senior general foreperson, so you don't trust commitments that they give now; is that right?---That's right.
PN477
All right, so that is the second one?---Mm.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN478
And the third one is you think that you will be financially disadvantaged?---That's right.
PN479
Okay, is there anything else, or are those the three things that are driving you position on this issue?---Those are the main ones, yes.
PN480
Okay, all right. Well, I think we have dealt with the payback one. On the mistrust you will note that the company's counter-measure for that is that they give you a written guarantee that at the end of the 12-month transfer period you will return into the press shop. Are you not satisfied with that as a commitment?---No. No, I - I believe in that commitment that that would be - that would come true, that commitment.
PN481
Yes?---I believe that.
PN482
Yes, all right?---But that doesn't take the way I'm feeling why I'm being transferred in the first place. That does not make up for it.
PN483
Yes, but that - that is the payback concern. The mistrust concern - - -?---Mm?
PN484
- - - does the written guarantee address that concern?---No, it doesn't address that concern. Address the concern that, yes, if they - if they put in writing that I would be - I would be coming back in 12 months I actually - they would - especially with all the people knowing, well, now - - -
PN485
Yes?--- - - - not like in the past that I was - so many people involved - - -
PN486
Yes?--- - - - yes, I would believe that they would - - -
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN487
Trust them to bring you back to the press shop?---Trust to do that, yes.
PN488
Wouldn't you?---Yes, I do.
PN489
Okay. Can we deal with the financial disadvantage argument? You say, I think, or the union representatives on your behalf raised, I think, on 6 October that you stood to lose out on overtime earnings if you moved into the body shop?---Correct.
PN490
So that is the concern?---That is a concern, yes.
PN491
Yes, that is one of the three?---Yes.
PN492
Okay, and that was the first time that that issue had been raised with the company, wasn't it?---Yes.
PN493
Yes, okay. And the financial - - -?---No, sorry, sorry, is not. I - I mention that with Renato .... once, not very strongly, but I did, because I was proud and that is not an area that you can be - feel very proud to talk about.
PN494
Okay?---But I did touch on it with Renato.
PN495
All right, but it came out on 6 October, so - - -?---It came out - it came out formally, as you can say in writing on 6 October, yes.
PN496
All right?---But much prior to that.
PN497
And the financial disadvantage that we are talking about is the - what you say is a loss of opportunity to earn the overtime at the levels that you had been used to in the press shop; is that right?---Yes, that's right.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN498
Is there any other area of financial disadvantage that you - - -?---Well, I'm paying the mortgage.
PN499
No, sir, other than the overtime, is there anything else on financial disadvantage about a transfer?---No, that's the only one.
PN500
No, sir, we are just talking about overtime?---Yes.
PN501
Okay?---Yes.
PN502
Now, you have seen the summary of the payroll data?---Yes.
PN503
And you said you don't accept the payroll information?---Exactly. Strong.
PN504
Sorry, sir, you say that the payroll - the payroll has made a mistake?---What you have shown me here that's wrong.
PN505
OkaY?---And I - I have my payslips here with me. If we need a calculator you can add that up.
PN506
Yes, now, you said that you were on a base salary of 70,000?---Roughly, yes.
PN507
Roughly; yes. And that for that period you think you have earnt around 120,000?---Last year's - my group certificate which I have there in my - - -
PN508
Yes, all right?--- - - - in my jacket is a hundred and - just over 122,000.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN509
Okay. That is the last financial year; these figures relate to the last 12 months from the end of October, so we are talking about slightly different periods?---Yes.
PN510
But let us assume that those - - -?---Well, actually, yes, we have been working more with them than the last year.
PN511
Okay, all right?---So, yes, it will be different.
PN512
Now, can I take you to that document which is attachment RC6, so that we go to Mr Cimarelli's statement and at the back of his statement you will see the attachments, and it is number 6. Have you got that there?---Yes.
PN513
Okay. You will see that it is listed, the people who should be compared with you, and I am told by Ms Waters that the classifications for those people, apart from Mr Baldwin, should actually read, "GF", that they are general forepersons; is that right?---He's a senior GF, yes.
PN514
And Frank is a senior - - -?---No, Frank is a senior GF of the other GFs.
PN515
GFs, not GLs; yes?---That's right, yes.
PN516
Okay. Now, you will see the figures there. You are on 594?---Yes, that's right.
PN517
You have had three months?---Two-and-a-half months.
PN518
This year?---10 weeks.
PN519
Okay, so eight weeks, so - - -?---For 10 weeks under WorkCover, then I had - I had three weeks prior to that, yes, so - - -
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN520
All right. So the figures, if we assume that you were earning the same sort of overtime over the periods that you were away, that would increase your figures, wouldn't it ?---Obviously.
PN521
Yes, and that you would probably be a bit closer to someone like Bill Bakker, for example?---No, I would be - I would - I would be closer to Bruce Smith - probably a little bit more because I work slightly more than he does.
PN522
You wouldn't be double, though, for two-and-a-half months though, would you?---No, because - - -
PN523
On these figures?---Oh, on these figures?
PN524
On these figures?---Of course, yes.
PN525
Yes?---But these figures are wrong.
PN526
Okay. You say they are wrong?---Yes.
PN527
Yes, all right. Now, can I suggest to you that the 50,000 gap that you are trying to work out can be put down to a 10 per cent competency payment on top of your base? You get that, don't you?---No, no, the 10 per cent competency payment are included in that 70 - 70,000, that's included.
PN528
You are including that in the 70?---Yes.
PN529
Okay, what about the 5 per cent you get for the - - -?---That's included.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN530
That is included; okay?---My hourly rate is - - -
PN531
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hang on; 5 per cent you get for what?
PN532
MR DALTON: Diploma?---Diploma for front-line managers.
PN533
Sorry, I thought I said "diploma"?
PN534
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I may not have heard you?---My hourly rate is $37 an hour. You can multiply that by 30; multiply by 52 again it will give you just over $70,000.
PN535
MR DALTON: All right, but it is not including the 15 per cent that you get for early starts, is it?---Yes - no, it doesn't.
PN536
No, okay, so 15 per cent on top of 70, is not going to be the overtime, is it?---But 15 per cent - I've only been doing that - the 15 per cent I've only been earning for the last 10 weeks - I've only earned about four - four pay periods because I've been away for 10 weeks and I only started doing it prior to me going on WorkCover.
PN537
All right. And overtime earnings could be one-and-a-half times, or two-and-a-half times, depending on when you are doing the overtime?---And two-and-a half and a half-time - two-and-a-half times on Sunday.
PN538
Yes, so even though the hours might be lower you might be earning more than the person with the same number of overtime hours; that is right, isn't it?---Yes. But, no, there is no way you can do so many overtime during - on a time-and-a-half, to equal those amounts; impossible.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN539
All right?---Especially on the body shop.
PN540
Now, yes, we will have to put to you that payroll haven't, in fact, made a mistake in that they have actually looked at the data, which I take it you have not had an opportunity to do?---No, I haven't.
PN541
And that they have come up with those hours. And you are not in a position to challenge that with any documentation that you have in relation - - -?---Yes, I have - I have my payslips there with - - -
PN542
- - - sorry, in relation to your overtime earnings, do you?---Yes, I have my payslips here.
PN543
All right, well - - -?---Can I - can I get my folder from there, please? I just want to compare just prior to coming - prior to coming back from - since the status quo, for this pay period for the last four - for the last four weeks I average 130 hours a month. My earning last - yesterday, was 8000-plus gross. The same person, Mr Wylie in the body shop was 4000.
PN544
All right?---That's double the amount. And this is a similar scenario on a payment basis.
PN545
All right, well, given that you don't accept the payroll data that has been compiled, can I show you a document which is the raw data produced from payroll?
PN546
MR ADDISON: Your Honour, I would ask that this not be produced at this point in time. I didn't take Mr Garcia to his payslips but, obviously, given this raw data we would need to do some cross-checking. I haven't seen this before, it has simply been given to me, so given the time, it might be appropriate that the matter be stood over lunch time, I will do some cross-checking to find out whether it is accurate, or not?
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN547
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Dalton, you can - - -
PN548
MR DALTON: Well, I don't expect we are going to have a difficulty with that, I mean, these are payroll numbers that are produced.
PN549
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN550
MR DALTON: I mean, I guess, given that the attachments were provided yesterday, I am prepared to allow Mr Addison to get - I wouldn't object to him getting instructions from - - -
PN551
MR ADDISON: I haven't seen it.
PN552
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, that is fine, but what was your purpose in showing them to Mr Garcia?
PN553
MR DALTON: Because I am going to put them through my witness - - -
PN554
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN555
MR DALTON: - - - given that they are disputed.
PN556
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I thought you were going to do that. You are not intending to ask Mr Garcia to attest as to their accuracy?
PN557
MR DALTON: No, but I would need him to note that that is, in fact, the figures that we are relying upon and that they are sourced from raw payroll data.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN558
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN559
MR DALTON: I don't want it said of me, you know, that I am putting a document through my witness and they haven't mentioned that we have got this information and the basis upon which we have got it.
PN560
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN561
MR ADDISON: Well - - -
PN562
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, I mean, to the extent that the purpose is to show them to your witness - - -
PN563
MR ADDISON: If that is the purpose and it is purely a purpose to show them to Mr Garcia so he is aware they exist, I would object to the question that they have been generated from payroll, because I don't know that, but if the purpose is simply to show them to Mr Garcia so that he knows they are there, I have no difficulty.
PN564
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Proceed, Mr Dalton, because, I mean, I am keen to go through till one, and in any instance that will then provide Mr Addison with the opportunity to look at them - - -
PN565
MR DALTON: Mr Addison could cross-examine - - -
PN566
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - for the purposes of re-examination.
PN567
MR DALTON: - - - Mr Cimarelli.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN568
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN569
MR DALTON: On the overtime point.
PN570
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN571
MR DALTON: Yes.
PN572
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But it will also give him the opportunity to have a look at them for the purposes of re-examination of Mr Garcia. Yes?
PN573
MR DALTON: Well, I probably don't need to - - -
PN574
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So - - -
PN575
MR DALTON: We have - the reason - the attachment that you have been referred to, RC6, is a summary of raw payroll data. You understand that that is the basis upon which those figures are put?---I suppose.
PN576
Yes, and the effect of your evidence is to dispute what we say is data that has been obtained from payroll records?---Yes.
PN577
Yes?---Yes, we saw that.
PN578
Yes, okay. It is the company's position that you don't, in fact, stand to lose out on overtime earnings if you move into the body shop; do you accept that?---Well, what you're saying that if I was - if I was going to body shop what I'm earning now I would be earning there regardless whether they are - whatever overtime they're working; is that what you're saying?
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN579
No?---Did they have that in writing?
PN580
No, I don't think the company has guaranteed you overtime - the overtime earnings that you have been used to in the press shop, but I am suggesting to you that, based on this information, you can't demonstrate that you will be worse off moving into the body shop in relating to overtime?---If this - if this was correct, yes, of course, but it isn't. I know that it's not.
PN581
All right. Now, you have mentioned that the press shop is undermanned?---Yes.
PN582
In relation to the supervisory team?---Yes.
PN583
And that, I think that you would accept that that is one of the reasons why those supervisors are working relatively high overtime?---Not just the supervisors, the team members as well, yes.
PN584
Okay?---Everybody, not just supervisors work that.
PN585
And including you?---That included us.
PN586
Okay?---That includes managers till they're there till 10 o'clock at night even though they don't get paid overtime, they're a little bit cut on that.
PN587
Okay, now, you didn't mention in your evidence that the company proposes to appoint two new group leaders on day shift in your area?---I apologise for that because that's been - that's been said for the last two years already, so it probably slipped my mind.
PN588
Well, Mr Cimarelli is going to give evidence that that is, in fact, what he is going to do and that he has let you know that that is what is happening?---Yes, okay, so we have been hearing that for many, many - for a long time, we still haven't seen the bulletins outlining that.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN589
Okay, so you don't believe that either?---I will believe it when I see it, yes.
PN590
Okay. You would accept though, that if these people are appointed that that will help reduce the amount of overtime that is required to be worked by supervisors in the press shop?---Once we have the - yes, and no - not entirely, no, we won't.
PN591
Sorry, if - - -?---It won't - it won't help to reduce the overtime for supervisors in the press shop.
PN592
Sorry, so it won't have any impact?---No, not direct - not straight away, no. No, it won't. My answer, no, it won't. I can elaborate and tell us you why not?
PN593
No? So you say no impact on that?---No impact.
PN594
All right?---If we were to put six supervisors right there in the press shop, and I am not being sarcastic, on weekends it will not - it will not help.
PN595
Okay. Now, the introduction of robotics on one of the lines in your area, that has contributed significantly to the overtime levels currently being worked in the press shop, isn't it?---Yes. It's contributed greatly to increase the overtime level and also to the health and safety putting people at risk who have been injured, since we - since we are staking - staking sharp edge blanks by hand because the timing in the pre-build was not done correctly and that the instalment of the robots was not done in time and it is a daily activity.
PN596
Right, so the answer to my question is that that, in fact, contributing to the amount of overtime that is being worked?---At the moment, yes.
PN597
Okay?---Long term - long term it will help to - to decrease it.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN598
Okay, all right. And you know that overtime is not guaranteed for you, is it?---I know.
PN599
Okay. Now, in relation to the transition, the company has made a number of counter-measures available to you, haven't they?---Can you refresh my memory?
PN600
The transitional arrangement such as, I think, maintenance of the 15 per cent early shift - - -?---For an early - - -
PN601
- - - start for one month?---Yes.
PN602
Yes, an also to pay you overtime but gradually to phase that out as your early starts, your pre-seven - - -?---From 5 to 7 for a month, yes.
PN603
- - - am starts?---Yes.
PN604
So there is a month of that?---Yes.
PN605
Yes?---I found that insulting.
PN606
And there is also available to you financial counselling and also a hardship loan if you require either of those?---Yes.
PN607
Yes?---Yes, we are very good at that.
PN608
Okay. Now - - -?---Could I say something? I am surprised you didn't asked me how increasing - increasing the number of supervisors is not going to help increase the overtime on supervisors? Can I elaborate on that since you didn't ask me why?
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN609
No, you can't?---No?
PN610
Training and support has also been offered to you to facilitate your transition into the body shop, hasn't it?---Pardon? Training - - -
PN611
Training and support?---Mm.
PN612
Yes?---Yes.
PN613
Okay. So let us assume for the moment that the payroll figures are correct; yes?---Yes.
PN614
The only reason then that you can rely on as to why you shouldn't be moved into the body shop is that the company is motivated by this improper need to pay you back over the Hunter issues?---Yes.
PN615
That is right?---Yes, plus this is a - plus a disappointment of working 20 years giving it all I got, and - and making - acting in this way towards me, yes, I - - -
PN616
Now, you have said, I think, when the transfer was raised with you by Mr Cimarelli, that you don't have any concerns about moving from one area into another as such; is that right?---I said that because when I was - I've been from day maintenance to production - - -
PN617
Yes?--- - - - from production to day maintenance, no, because at the time Garcia was on, which is a new model trial. They ask for my help. I have the knowledge; it made sense. "The company needs you. We have a problem making that line with an SVP, which is the release of the car". "Can you assist day maintenance?" I could see that maintenance was struggling. I could see that it could use my input, or how little it may be, and I agree entirely because it makes sense and it was good for the company. It made sense.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN618
Right, to you?---Pardon.
PN619
To you?---To me.
PN620
Yes?---Yes.
PN621
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that a convenient point, Mr Dalton?
PN622
MR DALTON: Well, I have only got about three questions to go, if it is convenient to finish just a few minutes later?
PN623
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
PN624
MR DALTON: You don't have a problem with the senior manager in the body shop, Tony Ashamala, do you?---No, actually he lives two streets down from me.
PN625
He is a nice fellow, isn't he?---He is. I never work under him but he seems to me a very pleasant, yes.
PN626
All right, so you are not worried about having to work with that particular manager, are you?---No.
PN627
If you had to move into body shop?---No.
PN628
All right. And you are guaranteed to return to the press shop anyway, aren't you?---It would be very embarrassing for me - - -
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN629
Yes?--- - - - to go through this transition because - - -
PN630
Embarrassing for you?---Yes, because all the team members are aware of the situation. It will be embarrassing for me to go and to return, both, the whole scenario would be very embarrassing, yes.
PN631
Sorry, you will need to explain that? How is it embarrassing to you?---Okay. The word is on the shelf floor "They're sending you to the body shop for speaking up for Graeme Hunter, for, oh, you're being a big boy and he said, "No, you don't talk - you don't talk about senior management", no, you just have just got to - - -
PN632
All right, now, when you say it is "payback" - - -?---Yes?
PN633
I guess, in my mind, payback would involve doing something bad to someone; right?---Punishment, yes.
PN634
Yes; okay. What is bad about moving into the body shop?---What's bad?
PN635
Yes?---To me?
PN636
Yes?---What's bad? The reason why I'm being moved to the body shop, that's bad.
PN637
Sorry, you don't think it makes sense?---No, I know it doesn't make sense. I know is the reason being given here is not legitimate.
PN638
It is not the real reason?---No, because - - -
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN639
So you say it is payback?---My reason is "You are burnt out. You need to get away from there. When you come back everything will be forgotten." That - that is the true word from my manager.
PN640
Yes, I get - the question I am asking though, is, what is bad about working in the body shop as compared to the press shop?---I wouldn't know. I've never worked there.
PN641
Okay. Can you think of anything that might be bad for you in working in the body shop?---No. Everybody, I - like I say, I visit the body shop several times a day and everybody is very pleasant and they're all good fellows. I have no - no reason to have anything - they're just all of us.
PN642
Do you think you have got an open mind?---I think I have an open mind, yes.
PN643
Do you think it is possible that you might learn something if you go into the body shop?---I think we learn something every day of our lives, just depends what we want to do with it.
PN644
Now, in the press shop, you and the supervisors, most of them have been in that area for a long time, haven't they?---No, they haven't, only one of them. There's the gentleman behind me has only been there a very short time and the senior manager has been there a very short - probably both of them within one year.
PN645
No, I am talking supervisor - sorry, you may have misheard me?---Sorry - - -
PN646
The supervisors?---Oh, supervisors?
PN647
And the group leaders - - -?---In my level?
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN648
- - - and the team leaders, yes?---Yes, my level, yes, I believe they have been there for a long time.
PN649
Yes, and so you have all got a lot of built-up knowledge about the press shop?---I have. I don't know about them. I suppose they have to, yes.
PN650
Well, they have been working with you over a long period of time, haven't they?---Are you talking about the press shop, or body shop?
PN651
The press shop?---Oh, the press shop, yes, yes, sorry, I thought you were talking about the body shop.
PN652
Yes, so you have got a crew of people there?---Yes, they have been a long time, yes.
PN653
Yes, so there is a crew of individuals there who have got a lot of knowledge built up?---Within the press shop?
PN654
Yes?---Yes, and the other areas, yes.
PN655
All right. Do you think it would hurt if you got some experience of a different area to bring that back into the press shop?---If it was relevant to my press shop operations, and the press shop was in a different condition than it is now, it have, for example, you will see established supervision structure and established management structure and everything is going Mickey Mouse. There are also the times when you can stay back and look and say everybody's - everything is running really good. This is the time to experiment and to - to, you know, look at all departments and how they do this and what they do, but this is not the situation there.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN656
All right. Is there anything - - -?---This why I'm - this is why I'm so surprised on the current management - - -
PN657
Is there anything that would make - - -?--- - - - could even consider it. Yes?
PN658
Is there anything that would make you agree to transfer into the body shop?---Is there anything?
PN659
Yes?---No.
PN660
No, because you don't think it makes sense?---No.
PN661
Because you think that it is motivated by payback?---That's right.
PN662
Okay. Just one last question in relation to overtime: overtime is managed locally, isn't it?---What do you mean "managed locally"?
PN663
Locally, like, for example - - -?---Overtime is managed by the men.
PN664
Sorry, like, overtime is managed - press shop overtime is managed by the press shop?---Yes, the manager makes a decision what we work and how much we work.
PN665
Okay, and so management of body shop is done over in the body shop?---Obviously.
PN666
Yes, okay?---Depending on how many days were behind or in front, yes.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN667
Right. Do you think it is fair to lock in specific overtime earnings that someone may have had in one area for them if they move into another area?---Pardon?
PN668
Do you think it is fair to lock in overtime earnings that a person is used to in one area if they are moving into another area?---No.
PN669
No? Okay?---No, when I - when I was transferred from maintenance to production I didn't even consider that.
PN670
All right. Look, one last question: the grievance response, you said that you hadn't received it?---Sorry. I didn't - this document, the statement from Mr Cimarelli and Mr Harrod, we just got it prior to coming into this room, this way, yes, but it is - - -
PN671
Right, but at the time - at the time the company gave their response to your grievance, which was on 4 September - - -?---Yes?
PN672
- - - I think that you said that you hadn't received it?---No, I said that - I said that I didn't recall it.
PN673
You never got it?---Yes, I never got it, but I did get it, it's just that I didn't - it didn't refresh my - - -
PN674
Today?---Today, yes, because I just got it just prior to coming into this room, the two statements, so I had no chance even to look what's in there.
PN675
Yes, sorry, I will have to ask again: did you - were you provided with the response?---Yes, I was aware of it. I was aware of it.
**** JOSE GARCIA XXN MR DALTON
PN676
Okay?---I was aware of the response been rejected.
PN677
Right?---Yes.
PN678
And, sorry, and you told the union to reject the response?---Yes, well, that's - - -
PN679
Yes, okay?--- - - - that's how it works, isn't it?
PN680
No more questions, your Honour.
PN681
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will adjourn until 2.15. One of the issues that is dealt with in the material for both sides in the witness statements is the issue of overtime earnings. It seems to me that should be a matter of fact. So I would ask the parties to see if they can reach some agreed position in respect of that, if possible. It also appears to be an important aspect of the case on which, if there is agreement reached, may assist in resolution. I will adjourn until 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.10pm]
RESUMED [2.18pm]
JOSE GARCIA:
PN682
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Addison?
PN683
**** JOSE GARCIA RXN MR ADDISON
PN684
MR ADDISON: Your Honour, before I start, can I make a request that we finish at 4 today? I have another commitment. I have spoken to Mr Dalton, that suits him too. With regard to the matter you raised before lunch, we took away the base data and we have only checked one pay period, but on the face of it it seems that the data is incorrect. We checked the pay period ending 22nd of the eighth of this and the data records that Mr Garcia worked 25.2 hours time-and-a half where his payslip records 32.21. It records that he worked 7.49 hours double time; his payslip record 14.2 and it records no double-time-and-a-half, or his payslip records 9.25. I have raised that with Mr Dalton and I understand Ms Waters is trying to get some further information run off this afternoon. I have suggested to Mr Dalton if that doesn't resolve the matter then Mr Davis and Mr Marmara would be more than happy to meet with the company tomorrow morning in an attempt to come to an agreed position. We agree with you, your Honour, that is a matter of fact, it shouldn't be a matter of conjecture, it is just purely fact. And, obviously, we would seek to check the figures with regard to the other individuals as well. So that is where we are at with regard to that.
PN685
Your Honour, in terms of re-examination I only have one question of Mr Garcia and that is: you were asked some questions, Joe, with regard to the level of supervision, etcetera, within the press shop. You said that if they appointed new supervisors it would make no difference to the position with regard to all the time in the press shop. Can you explain what you mean by that?---Okay, the normal scenario is we, for the weekend, we need the full support of the collection of the team members, team leaders, etcetera. Unfortunately, we can only, even begging, we can only get less than 50 per cent of the team members required and team leaders to run - to run the lines, so to be able to meet the output required, our GFs and group leaders to have to become team members. So that means that Mr Nick Felton, like last Saturday, he was doing the team leader's role, running a line. Mr Jela Martinovic was on driving a fork-lift all day because we didn't, even though we get people from - team members from other departments to assist us, a skill level to run those lines and to operate cranes as far as crane-driving, etcetera, is not there, so we have to supplement that later, so if we were to get two or three group leaders for next weekend then we very much appreciate it so we can use them as team members on the shop floor.
PN686
Thanks, Joe. I have nothing further, your Honour.
**** JOSE GARCIA RXN MR ADDISON
PN687
PN688
PN689
MR ADDISON: Charlie, can you repeat your full name and address just for the transcript, please?---Charlie Joe Marmara, 52 Central Avenue, Altona Meadows.
PN690
And have you prepared a witness statement with regard to this matter before the Commission this afternoon?---Yes, I have.
PN691
Have you got a copy of that with you?---No, I haven't.
PN692
Just bear with me, your Honour, I seem to have misplaced it.
PN693
Can you just have a look over that, Charlie and tell me if that is your witness statement?---Yes, it is.
PN694
Do you wish to make any changes to it?---No, I don't.
PN695
And is it true and correct in all of the particulars?---Yes, it is.
PN696
Your Honour, I seek to tender that.
PN697
PN698
MR ADDISON: Now, Charlie, you work for Toyota?---Yes, I do.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN699
And you say in the first paragraph of your witness statement that you are the site senior Employee Representative Co-ordinator?---Yes, I am.
PN700
What does that mean?---I look after all the divisions at the Altona site, Brisbane, Sydney, Port Melbourne, so - - -
PN701
So you are the convenor, effectively?---I'm the convenor for, yes, all - - -
PN702
How many members do you represent in that role?---Oh, around three-and-a-half thousand.
PN703
Three-and-a-half thousand. Now, Charlie, the matter before the Commission this afternoon deals with the forced transfer, if you like, of a person. Has that issue ever come up before?---We had one issue where there was a forced transfer about four or five years ago.
PN704
And what happened with regard to that?---Went through the grievance procedure in the Commission here in front of Commissioner Foggo.
PN705
Yes?---We then - well, it come we had to go back and ask for volunteers.
PN706
Okay, so was that a finding of Commissioner Foggo?---Yes, it was.
PN707
Now, you have been involved with Joe's issue?---Yes, I have.
PN708
And have you been involved through all the levels of the dispute settling procedure?---Not all the levels, just my - my levels. I come in sort of between halfway and towards the end. There were five, I think?
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN709
Yes, you were in the Commission when Joe gave evidence that he had had a discussion with you about the matters, I think at the problem resolution stage?---I think it was prior to that, that Joe and I had a talk.
PN710
Can you tell the Commission about that discussion and where it led?---Yes, I spoke to Peter Davis who is the shop steward, represents TNS, senior steward. I've been in this role for 15 years and I know that there's always an underlying problem with these issues and I asked Peter to bring Joe so I can have a chat, just me and Joe. Joe did come in. We sat down outside my office and I explained to Joe, "By just saying that you don't want to go because you think if it's payback and that, you know, that's not a good reason. There must be an underlying problem, Joe, what is it." And it took about 10 or 15 minutes of coaching - he finally came out and said that he has financial problems. He bought a brand new Toyota, 4-wheel drive and he'd just moved into a house as well, and financially, it would ruin him. And he did tell me that he was - was in a depressing - he was depressed when he told me. And he did say that, you know, that they are the kind of things that he does not really want to talk about, his financial problems, but that was his underlying problem - amongst the other things.
PN711
Now, with regard to the discussions with Toyota, have there been any propositions put to try and resolve the matter?---There were a few.
PN712
And they were?---One was that Joe works in body shop and if there was no other time in the body shop to support body shop on the weekend, that he would go over to press shop. Management turned round and said, "No, we can't have that because we've already got Frank Baldwin there and that would mean we'd have to pay two people for the same overtime."
PN713
Right. Was any other propositions put?---There might have been? I can't recall any more, no.
PN714
Can't recall; okay. Now, in your role as conveyor, do you move around -tour around a bit?---Yes, I do.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN715
And are you familiar with the various operations in the various areas?---Yes, I am.
PN716
Would you - just bear with me. I think it is Mr Harrod in his evidence, says that:
PN717
The level of overtime between the body shop and the press shop are effectively the same.
PN718
Would you agree with that?---No.
PN719
No?---No.
PN720
What is the level of overtime in the two areas, from your knowledge?---From my knowledge? Press shop would work three or four times more than people in the body shop.
PN721
Is there a reason for that?---Well, the press shop is an old building - it's been there for 24 years. I believe, I'm not an expert, but I believe it was never built to produce this high amount of parts and that's why these, or all our guys, the PVs work seven days a week virtually, start at 5 o'clock in the morning just to keep up, well, keep the plant running.
PN722
Okay. Now, as your role of convenor, were you involved in the negotiations of the enterprise agreement?---I was.
PN723
To your knowledge - maybe if I put it this way - can I ask the witness be shown the agreement? Charlie, the company will say - Mr Dalton will say on behalf of the company, and, your Honour, this point 30 of the outline, Mr Dalton will say on behalf of the company that there are provisions in the enterprise agreement which strongly support transfers in the interests of flexibility and they will point to clause 7. Could you go to clause 7. And, once again, from your experience in negotiating the enterprise agreement, was there any intention at clause 7 - - -
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN724
MR DALTON: Well, I object to the question on the basis it is not relevant. The agreement is here for all to see and submissions can be made as to what it means. In my submission, it is not relevant to attempt to lead evidence as to what Mr Marmara's view was as to what was intended in the negotiations leading up to the agreement.
PN725
MR ADDISON: To counter that, I think it is perfectly legitimate, that a person who negotiated the agreement was one of the negotiators who can give evidence with regard to the intent behind the various clauses in the agreement and it is perfectly legitimate to ask that question.
PN726
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will allow the question. The issue of the weight I should attach to it is a matter for submissions.
PN727
MR ADDISON: Indeed, your Honour.
PN728
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But don't lead.
PN729
MR ADDISON: Sorry?
PN730
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Don't lead.
PN731
MR ADDISON: I am not leading. Well, I am going to try not to. I am sure if I do Mr Dalton will be on his feet quick smart.
PN732
If you have a look at clause 7, Charlie, from your experience as one of the negotiators, can you tell the Commission what the intent behind clause 7 was?---It's just - - -
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN733
MR DALTON: Well, I object to that question as well because Mr Marmara can't speak for the company's intention, he can only speak for what he thought the clause meant. It can - his evidence cannot go beyond his understanding of what was agreed. That explains my objection in the first instance, he can't say what the intention of the company is?
PN734
MR ADDISON: I think that is self-explanatory, your Honour.
PN735
MR DALTON: Well then, ask the question.
PN736
MR ADDISON: I mean, obviously, Mr Marmara can only give his understanding of what was agreed and what the intent was, unless there were specific propositions put to him, which I will ask him after he has given his intent.
PN737
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps you can phrase it in those terms?
PN738
MR ADDISON: Okay, I am happy to do that.
PN739
As a negotiator of the agreement, could you have a look at clause 7 and tell the Commission from your perspective, what the intent of clause 7 was?---Okay, just so we - are we talking about page 5? Is that the one - - -
PN740
I have no idea, I haven't got the thing in front of me, Charlie, you have got my copy?---Page 5? Yes. The intent of my understanding of the negotiating of that is that flexibility is needed in the workplace, but the intent for this is for flexibility to happen, but through negotiation and agreement with the union, and it has always happened in the past, and we have had flexibility happen in the past through negotiation and agreement.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN741
In the last round of negotiations or any round prior to that, were there any specific propositions put to you by the company in terms of the negotiations around clause 7?---No.
PN742
No; okay. Can I take you to clause 8.2.5?---8.2.5, yes.
PN743
Yes. Now, the company will say, or Mr Dalton will say on behalf of the company, that 8.2.5 also strongly supports transfers in the interests of flexibility. From your perspective, as one of the negotiators of the enterprise agreement, can you tell the Commission what your understanding of the intent of clause 8.2.5 was?---Again, the intent of this was to allow flexibility in the workplace, but these clauses were never an attempt to actually force people to move from one area to the other.
PN744
Right. Were there any specific propositions put by members of the management negotiating team with regard to 8.2.5 to your recollection?---No.
PN745
No? Can I take you to 8.3.5?---Yes.
PN746
Now, the same question, Charlie: from your perspective what was the intent behind that?---Well, again, that was to promote quality circles, suggestion schemes, standardise work and all of these things are, again, quality circles, suggestion schemes, they are not forced on you. They are voluntary; yes, you don't have to do them.
PN747
Okay, and was there anything specifically put to you by the management during the negotiations?---No.
PN748
With regard to that clause, no? Can I take you to 8.4.1?---Yes.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN749
Same question, Charlie: from your perspective what was the intent behind that?---Well, the intent behind that is, as I understand it during the negotiations, to look at better ways doing your job, continuous improvement, easier way, safe way.
PN750
Okay. Was there any intent from your point of view, or from the union side that it be used for forcibly transfer people?---No.
PN751
No?---None at all.
PN752
Was anything specifically put to you from management along those lines?---No.
PN753
No?---No.
PN754
Can I take you to clause - - -?---I wouldn't - wouldn't agree to that anyway, I mean - - -
PN755
Yes?---Yes, so, no.
PN756
Rather than go through it step-by-step, in terms of the whole basis of the enterprise bargaining agreement, was - during the course of the negotiations, was it put to you as a negotiator, or any other member of the negotiating committee from your knowledge, that Toyota intended to use the agreement to forcibly transfer people?---Never.
PN757
Never?---No.
PN758
Thanks, Charlie. Now, is there a clause in the agreement that deals with a requirement to overtime?---Yes, there is.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN759
Which clause is that?---24. 24, yes, 24, it goes away from 24.1 all the way down to 24.7.
PN760
Okay. And what is the requirement to work overtime?---Requirement to work overtime, you're required to work, well, a maximum of 20 hours a months.
PN761
Okay, and can you be forced to work that?---It has happened in the past where management have raised concerns with myself and other stewards that people aren't working the 20 hours maximum.
PN762
Okay, so it is an issue on the site, management want people to work the 20 hours, do they?---Yes.
PN763
Is that 20 hours - is that guaranteed?---It's - no, it's not guaranteed, but there is a bit of - no, it's not guaranteed.
PN764
Okay. Now, the 20 hours, well, we have heard evidence, seen evidence today that the 20 hours is often, well, it's often greater than 20 hours; you would agree with that?---Yes.
PN765
And in the press shop - no, I withdraw that. Now, can I just take you to paragraph 5 of your witness statement, Charlie? You talk there about a meeting that took place - - -?---Yes.
PN766
- - - with Tony Ashamala, with Chris Harrod - - -?---No, Chris - - -
PN767
Sorry, and Chris Harrod was absent?---Yes.
PN768
You sat there and you had a discussion with regard to Joe?---Yes.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN769
And you interjected and said the meeting was a set-up?---Mm.
PN770
And Joe was not going to the body shop?---Mm.
PN771
Tony apologised several times?---Mm.
PN772
Renato then offered Joe seven hours overtime a week in the body shop?---Mm.
PN773
And the opportunity to meet new people and learn new jobs. He said it was a secondment and that he would provide in writing a guarantee and date with re-employment in the press shop?---Yes.
PN774
Can you just tell the Commission what happened at that meeting? What - how that meeting went?---Well, we were asked by management if we can bring - get Joe to come in and if they go through again, try to explain to Joe, and, obviously, I was trying to resolve the issue, especially that Joe was off on stress leave. So we arranged for Joe to come in an Joe came in and went to see management, and when we got there Mr Ashamala proceeded to welcome Joe into the body shop. I did interject - got a bit upset because that's not what we talked about, we talked about sitting down to try and explain to Joe again, then Tony apologised several times and said, "Okay, sorry, no problems." We raised the issue of the financial hardship on Joe because of his new car and his home loan, and while we were talking, Renato and Tony Ashamala were scribbling on a piece of paper and I think Mr Ashamala was the one that actually come up with a figure, but he roughly worked it out to about seven hours a week overtime in the body shop and I then explained to him it was nowhere near what Joe gets in the press shop at the moment and that's when the suggestion came about maybe working in the press shop during the weekend and they said, "No, we can't do that."
PN775
So do I take it from that, that Mr Ashamala, you say he offered Joe seven hours overtime; was that a guarantee?---No, he was - he had a piece of paper in front of him and he was jotting down numbers and he must have been working out what overtime they work in the body shop during the week.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XN MR ADDISON
PN776
Right?---And, actually, it was his figure, it was around seven or eight hours, I'm not sure, but I'm 99 per cent sure it was seven - - -
PN777
Yes?--- - - - hours overtime during the week. So it wasn't really guaranteed, it was just a figure that he come round saying that's what they work during the week in the body shop.
PN778
Okay, no worries. Can I ask just how many meetings you have had with regard to Joe Garcia's issue with the management?---Sorry?
PN779
How many meetings you have had with management over this issue?---Oh, officially, or - - -
PN780
Well, all-up?---All-up, well, four, five, PRC.
PN781
Okay. I have nothing further. Thanks, Charlie?---Thank you.
PN782
PN783
MR DALTON: Mr Marmara, at paragraph 3 of your statement you say when you became aware of the issue in September 2003 - - - ?---Mm.
PN784
- - - you asked what was in it for Joe?---Yes.
PN785
And Mr Cimarelli said it was so Joe could learn new skills?---Mm.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XXN MR DALTON
PN786
And that the union rejected the transfer. I take it you rejected the transfer because Mr Garcia asked that you reject it?---I follow instructions from my members.
PN787
Yes, that is right?---Yes.
PN788
But you are not - the union is not opposed to one of its members learning new skills, is it?---If it's done correctly, no.
PN789
Yes, all right, so it wasn't - you weren't objecting to the transfer because of an opportunity to learn new skills, it was for other reasons?---Yes.
PN790
Okay, and the reason that you focussed on was this prospect of financial disadvantage in that the overtime levels in the body shop, in your view, were less than that would be worked in the press shop?---Yes.
PN791
Okay, and I think you said earlier in your evidence that you told Mr Garcia that there was no point in running this argument about payback?---Mm.
PN792
Is that right?---Yes, I - that's right, correct, yes.
PN793
Okay. You didn't believe the payback argument, did you?---Well, I was put - do you want a "yes", or "no" answer?
PN794
Yes, it is a "yes" or "no" question?---Can you rephrase it again?
PN795
You didn't - you, personally, didn't believe in the payback argument, did you?---Yes, I did.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XXN MR DALTON
PN796
You did?---Yes.
PN797
Okay. Can you explain to us then where you have taken that issue up with the company?---Well, you have to be in my position; I have got a member who is on stress leave and I have known Joe for a long time and he - he was destroyed and the quicker we can get him back to work the better for Joe.
PN798
Yes?---Now, to whether it was a payback, or not a payback, I believe it was as well, that is what I believe, but I am not going to drag Joe through that because I also believe it's a payback because when Mr Hunter left, they put the pressure on Joe to move as well. It's a bit of a coincidence that, you know, both things happened around the same time.
PN799
Yes, I just haven't seen anywhere where you have actually raised that issue with the company, with, or without Mr Garcia present. Are you able to show us anywhere where you have raised that?---No, because, as I said, what's the use of flogging a dead horse? My point was to get Joe back to work as quickly as possible.
PN800
Why did you think that would be dead? Why wouldn't you think that the -if you believe - - -?---Yes.
PN801
- - - that there was some sort of payback conspiracy, wouldn't that be something you would normally raise with the company to see if they could take that issue up?---Maybe 16 years ago, yes, I've been through it - I've been there a long time - a waste of time.
PN802
Do you - because Mr Garcia said earlier today that he believed that Mr Cimarelli and Mr Harrod are just basically puppets of senior management on this issue and that they don't really believe in this transfer?---Mm.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XXN MR DALTON
PN803
And that the transfer is all about this payback. So you agree with that too, do you?---I believe it's a payback for what happened between Joe and Mr Hunter.
PN804
Yes, but Mr Cimarelli and Mr Harrod are both going to give evidence to say that they think there are good reasons why he should transfer?---Mm.
PN805
And that they are not motivated by any payback mentality?---Mm.
PN806
So do you agree with Mr Garcia when he says that these managers are being told to say what they don't believe in, by senior management?---Well, I will answer your question again, a third time: I believe it was a payback. I'm talking about the Graeme Hunter issue with Joe Garcia.
PN807
Yes, but you have been dealing with Mr Harrod and Mr Cimarelli on this issue, haven't you?---With the Joe Garcia issue?
PN808
Yes?---Yes.
PN809
Yes?---Yes.
PN810
And you decided not to raise it with them?---There is not point to raise that issue. If it's gone through ER, the investigation's done and they've come out with, "No, it's not payback."
PN811
All right. So you focussed on overtime. Mr Cimarelli says that actually in the meeting that you had in September - I think I should take you through it: 12 September was the first time that you met about it and you met with Mr Harrod, Mr Cimarelli and Mr Davis was there as well?---Yes.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XXN MR DALTON
PN812
And the agreed outcome, according to Mr Cimarelli, is that you would go and try to get Mr Garcia to attend a meeting so that you could all talk through the issues?---Yes.
PN813
Okay. And on 6 October you had a meeting with Mr Garcia, Mr Davis was there, and Mr Cimarelli was there, along with Mr Ashamala?---Yes.
PN814
Yes?---Yes.
PN815
And it is in this meeting that you are trying to explain and see if Mr Garcia might be able to agree to transfer, and you used this meeting as an opportunity to raise the overtime issue as well?---Mm.
PN816
Is that right?---Mm.
PN817
That is a fair description of the meeting?---We weren't trying to explain to Joe to transfer to the body shop, the company was.
PN818
No. You knew that that was one of the purposes - - -?---The company.
PN819
- - - of the meeting?---The company asked us to call a meeting so they can again explain to Joe - - -
PN820
Yes?--- - - - what they wanted to do.
PN821
Yes?---Yes.
PN822
And it was an opportunity for you and Mr Garcia to raise your issues - - -?---Well - - -
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XXN MR DALTON
PN823
- - - about the transfer?---Yes. Yes.
PN824
And the issue that you focussed on, the only issue that you focussed on was the financial disadvantage point, wasn't it?---Well, you were there, were you? No, it wasn't.
PN825
Well, I am asking you?---No, it wasn't.
PN826
Okay, so what other points did you - - -?---Well, the - - -
PN827
What other concerns did you raise?---Well, it was supposed to be secondment; they have breached their own policy; that was raised.
PN828
So, breach of policy, you - - -?---There was - there was a number of issues raised, various issues.
PN829
Well, I am asking you what they were?---Well, that was one.
PN830
There is overtime?---There was the overtime; they way the whole process was handled.
PN831
What, in terms of communication, or notification?---Communication, yes, yes.
PN832
All right. Anything else?---No, that's about it.
PN833
That is it? Okay. Now, Mr Cimarelli says that he pointed out when you raised the overtime point, that that is the first time that that issue had been raised. Do you remember him saying that?---Yes, correct.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XXN MR DALTON
PN834
And he says that you responded with words to the effect of:
PN835
Like in all these cases we eventually get to the underlying causes. Joe will get less overtime in the body shop. With some recent new financial commitments this will greatly affect him.
PN836
?---Yes.
PN837
Yes?---Yes.
PN838
Okay. And then the company went away and looked at what it might be able to do in relation to that issue?---Yes, correct.
PN839
Okay. Now, when the matter went to the PRC, being the Problem Resolution Committee?---Resolution committee, yes.
PN840
You were on that, weren't you?---Yes, I was.
PN841
Okay?---Yes.
PN842
And in that forum - - -?---Yes.
PN843
- - - the issues raised by the union were this financial disadvantage point and what you believed was an attempted forced transfer contrary to the workplace agreement and policy?---Mm.
PN844
They are the two issues that you raised?---Yes, I believe so. I haven't got the minutes but I believe so, yes.
**** CHARLIE JOE MARMARA XXN MR DALTON
PN845
Okay, and you didn't raise any issue about improper motives behind the transfer, did you?---No.
PN846
No? Okay. So leaving aside the workplace agreement issue for the moment, if the overtime levels are comparable, is it your position that it is reasonable to get Mr Garcia to transfer into the body shop?---I take instructions from my members.
PN847
So it is up to - - - ?---I mean, yes, we do suggest, recommend, but it's up to the member to make their final decision.
PN848
Okay. All right. Could I perhaps just - you have got the agreement there?---Yes.
PN849
You are familiar with the Problem Resolution and Disputes Avoidance Procedure, aren't you?---Actually, yes, I am.
PN850
Yes, and that procedure applies where an employee has experienced a problem?---Yes.
PN851
Yes, and "problem" can include any work-related manner - matter?---Matter, yes.
PN852
Yes, okay?---Yes.
PN853
No more questions, your Honour.
PN854
MR ADDISON: No re-examination, your Honour.
PN855
PN856
MR ADDISON: Your Honour, given the fact that my friend has accepted the other witness statements, that concludes the evidence for the AMWU.
PN857
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Dalton?
PN858
PN859
MR DALTON: Mr Harrod, could you state for the transcript record your full name and address, please?---Christopher Paul Harrod, 1 Bonvue Court, Knoxfield.
PN860
And you are employed by Toyota in the position of General Manager, Press and Body Shop at the Altona plant?---That's correct.
PN861
Yes, and you have prepared a statement for this matter?---Yes.
PN862
Do you have a copy of that in front of you?---I certainly do.
PN863
Are there any changes you wish to make to that statement?---Yes, there is. On page 3, third line, strike out, "and the individual".
PN864
Right, apart from that change is the statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?---Yes, it is.
PN865
I tender that.
PN866
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XN MR DALTON
PN867
MR DALTON: Mr Harrod, you say that, I think, in February 2003 you outlined to the management supervisory group your vision and strategy for the future for the press and weld shops. Can you explain to us what you saw as the key things that you needed to focus on to achieve - well, to achieve the vision that you had there of the number one mine-set 50,000 export vehicles and the other targets that you set out in your statement?---Certainly. So my position as general manager is responsible for interpreting the president' goals and then cascading those down through the organisation. With in press and body my fundamental vision there was to align the strategy, the structure and the culture together and by that, what I was talking about was, in terms of the strategy, we were trying to ensure that we had appropriate job descriptions, position descriptions in place. We were trying to ensure that everybody knew their role and responsibility. In terms of structure, our main aim with the structure was to ensure that we had competent people in all levels of the organisation, capable of delivery the business goals of the organisation. And in terms of the culture that we were trying to create in both body and press was one based on modelling integrity, and that basically meant, was supporting the standards that we've set both in the Workplace Agreement in terms of the teamwork charter and also in terms of the breakthrough competencies, and so it's important to differentiate between the two because we have award and non-award employees and so in that situation we need to address both areas.
PN868
All right. And general forepersons, there are a number of them in press and weld on various shifts, how did you see them fitting into the strategy?---I think in the past, as an organisation, we have really focussed on the tasks side of the business, and so our people have been very technically competent in what they have done. And when I talk about being technically competent I just don't talk about their qualification level, but it is the systems that they put in place to support that technology, or their technical skills. And they would be things that systems is monitoring downtime, looking at improvement process, etcetera. But the things that we really wanted to focus on and the organisation over the last two years has embarked on a development program called FLM, and part of that process is about improving the interpersonal skills and the leadership skills of our supervision. And so we were trying to take our GFs out of a role of just focussing on the day-to-day production numbers into a role where they were going to be more responsible in the development of their people and the systems.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XN MR DALTON
PN869
Okay, well, what do you see as the key aspects of the general foreperson role?---If you talk about the technical side you are really talking about safety, quality production and costs, and they're the main drivers of a GFs job. If you talk about things I've just spoken about in terms of the interpersonal skills, the key thing we're really trying to focus on is communication skills. So to ensure that they have a high level of communication and that they're able to work in a - the best way of describing it is to work collaboratively and develop a team within their own, but not only within their own area, in those areas that support it in terms of the supply chain.
PN870
All right. We have dealt with the concept of "kaizan" of continuous improvement, that is part of the Toyota way. How do you see continuous improvement in the context of Toyota's operations in Australia insofar as Altona and its future and the global plan for Toyota?---I think that no one needs to go any further than to read the local press that has been occurring over the last, probably three or four months, particularly in terms of free trade - trade between ourselves and Thailand, between ourselves and America, to understand that we are in a very, very competitive environment. And when I talk about competition I am not just talking about the likes of General Motors and Ford and Holden, we are talking about our own affiliates overseas. So we are competing for the same markets as the likes of Toyota Thailand, TMMK in America and Taiwan. And so for us in the area of continuous improvement, it's about evolution within the production processes; that we are able to clearly bring about improvements, particularly in quality and cost, because at the end of the day they are the things that will make us more attractive to overseas affiliates.
PN871
Okay, and what do you see a general foreperson doing to contribute to this continuous improvement?---I think Joe hit a bit of that on the head this morning when he spoke about the need to put counter-measures in place when there are issues on the shop floor. So whether they be issues around equipment problems where the equipment is breaking down, he has a role to interrelate that back through the maintenance people, if it die maintenance, with die maintenance people. It's a responsibility of putting those counter-measures in place that prevents it from occurring again.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XN MR DALTON
PN872
All right, and what about, well, that deals with counter-measures for problems?---Yes.
PN873
In terms of improvements how do you see a general foreperson?---Okay. So the sorts of improvements I would see would be, would be small types of improvements and they could be labour-related, so that could be improving the way that a team member goes about doing their job. But I think fundamentally, Joe's role is more about the coaching and the development of his group leaders in doing that activity. So I would expect in that circumstance, Joe has developed a lot of knowledge over the years and I would be expecting him then to educate and develop his people up to that same level. And so the improvements that he would be applying would be based on his experience and would also be based on his skill in that particular area.
PN874
All right. But Mr Garcia has been in the press shop for over 20 years and he has got an experienced core of group leaders and team leaders working with him?---Mm.
PN875
And also that area seems to be performing reasonably well. Why the need to move him out of that area and put him into body shop?---In terms of the systems, the visual controls, which is a key part of the Toyota production system, when you compare the press shop and the body shop, and I guess I'm in a good position to do that having responsibilities for both areas, certainly the visual controls and the improvements that are being made in the body shop, are far outstripping what we're - what we're achieving in the press shop and I guess that it's fair to say, we've all got a role to play in that particular - particular process. So that in body shop we have very clear visual controls which indicate the performance of the area. When I'm talking about "performance" I'm not just talking about we've produced X amount of cars per day, I'm talking about things around attendance; I'm talking things about safety; I'm talking things about 4S plus 1, which is the house-keeping area, etcetera, so there's a myriad of KPIs which we use to assess our performance in terms of continuous improvement.
PN876
Aren't those things in press shop?---They are, but not to the same level and so, if you perhaps related it like a parent and child-type relationship, then it is really quite junior at this stage and we really need to make quiet a quantum leap forward to lift the standards within the press shop.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XN MR DALTON
PN877
All right. How do you see this rotation, you know, helping you meet the objective of getting the press shop performance in those areas up?---So as we have spoken about it in our witness statements, there is not just one person involved in this exchange. There are actually three people involved in the exchange. We only talk about two of them because they are the people that are actually switching between press and body. But we have a very experienced person who has been spoken about here this morning, Frank Baldwin, who, I might add, has over 25 years experience with the company and during that period of time he has introduced and implemented a number of changes within the body shop. And so our vision is about getting Frank to come out of the production environment in the body shop for the same period of time that we'd expect Joe to go from press shop into body shop. And so we would get this exchange of knowledge between the two areas.
PN878
Okay. Why can't you just recruit, or appoint some more group leaders, give Mr Garcia some more support in the press shop and then get him to start implementing some of these things that you want implemented in press shop?---I think the problem with that is that it becomes somewhat superficial? So you only understand the upper level, you don't really drill down to understand what sits behind the process in the system and why do we do it, and what makes it effective? And so we talk about very strongly within Toyota, about two types of training. One is off-the-job training, which is like FLMs, so that's like sitting in a classroom with a lecturer, or an instructor training you. The other is the on-the-job training and that is the one that we probably embrace more, is about putting people in a learning situation where they learn from the people around them, right? And we spoke about quality circles; that is an example of that. But another example is through this movement from the press shop into the body shop, of learning at the same time with those people that are applying the systems in the process.
PN879
All right. We have heard, I think, from Mr Garcia that his area at the moment has a number of people in the supervisory positions who have been there for a long time. How do you view that situation; as a positive or a negative for the company?---I think it - I think it's both, and I can preface it by: we value Joe's experience and knowledge and what he's gained in the press shop. Certainly, his technical expertise is very good and that's one of the reasons we've maintained
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XN MR DALTON
this all the way through, that we don't want to lose Joe as a result of this process. But to get the exposure, to get the education, or the development, then the only way that I can see that occurring is by going from press into body. And we've got to be mindful that the period of time that we're in at the moment is, is that we don't have any new model introductions, and so for the next 12 months we're in a situation where it's a relatively quiet period and so that's why it's most convenient to do the change.
PN880
Right, and it's more convenient to do this change in a quiet period because you don't have the pressures of a new model?---That's correct.
PN881
Okay, where people might be more focussed on the operational aspects?---Yes.
PN882
Okay. Now, in your statement I think you, in a couple of places, you mentioned that Mr Garcia is quite strong in technical areas. Can you explain what you mean by that?---My understanding is that Joe's background is in die maintenance.
PN883
Yes?---And with that he brings a great amount of technical skill, so much so that, obviously, previous management have seen that as a strength with Joe and they have moved him from the technical stream into the production stream and that's a good example as to why we do rotations. It's not just because there are opportunities for improvement but also that people have strengths which they bring across into that particular position.
PN884
All right. Standardised work, what is your understanding of that concept?---So standardised work really is about creating the safest, most efficient, effective means of performing an operation, and in that circumstance it basically means that the process is clearly mapped out and defined. In that process, that development occurs with the team member, team leader and group leader and in determining that layout it enables us, I guess, to start the journey of continuous improvement in terms of, this is the base, and then we start to work on that in improvements. It also means from a safe working point of view, that the best possible process has been developed which looks after the health and wellbeing of the individual.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XN MR DALTON
PN885
Yes. Now, you have mentioned in your statement that you have tried to introduce quite a number of transfers in the area that - in the areas that you are responsible for. How have you approached the issue of transfers and how do you deal with it if someone has concerns about your proposal?---In May this year we undertook a transfer, transferring a maintenance person from the assembly operations, into our body shop operations. That person had been involved in transfers before and there were certain commitments given to that individual which weren't followed through. We sat down with that individual, spoke through those issues and at the end of the day we were prepared to give, in writing to the individual, about what our expectations of that person's new role would be and what the expected outcomes would also be. And upon that - and it took a bit of discussion. I think it took us almost two months to conclude those discussions but at the end of the day we signed off a letter which we gave to that particular member, and we intend on honouring that agreement.
PN886
All right. If Mr Garcia doesn't transfer and he stays in the press shop, how do you see that in terms of, or Toyota's perspective, and also Mr Garcia's perspective?---I think it sends out a bit of a concern to other people in the business about rotations and movements particularly in terms of development, but I think in terms of Joe's situation, he's not going to get that exposure and opportunities for improvement if he stays in the current location and the current position he is in. Certainly, we can change management and Joe's already spoken about the number of managers that he's been exposed to over time, but it is really about working with your peers at the same level, to understand the processes an systems. And so working at that level you really understand what the issues are and what the traps are.
PN887
Well, why is this all happening now, relatively recently, when Mr Garcia has been in the press shop for over 20 years and he hasn't been asked to transfer before out of the press shop?---It's difficult for me to answer to previous management but, certainly, since the year 2000 we have been on a program under the new president, of restructuring our business and our organisation. And so towards that end we have done a considerable amount of changes at the senior level of which obviously myself and Renato were part of in the moving going to press and body, and we are slowly moving through the organisation and making changes and adjustments. And I guess that was the background to my conversation earlier in the year to all the GFs and GLs and management.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XN MR DALTON
PN888
PN889
MR ADDISON: Chris, you have been around a while?---Yes.
PN890
Yes?---Too long sometimes.
PN891
Too long, indeed. You are previously a human resources person?---Yes.
PN892
Yes, and you are currently the general manager in the press and body shop?---Operations, yes.
PN893
Now, you agree that Joe has got good technical skills?---In terms of his qualification and the application of those, yes.
PN894
Yes, you agree he is a good supervisor?---Can you qualify what you mean by "good supervisor"?
PN895
Well, he is good in the role that he carries out in the press shop, isn't he?---Yes. In terms of being a good supervisor, and where we would perhaps expect supervision to be, that may be a different question and I may respond with a different answer.
PN896
Feel free, it is your evidence?---Okay, so in terms of Joe's position, we have identified that for him to make improvements and to get to where we see he should be performing at, that he should rotate into the body shop to bridge those gaps where there are opportunities for improvement.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN897
Okay, now, Joe's been in the press shop for a long time; 20 years - - -?---I - - -
PN898
- - - I think Mr Dalton said?---I believe it's 22 years that he's been there.
PN899
Yes, 22 years, and when he moved into his new position, that was in October, about five years ago, the general foreperson's position in the press shop, he was given some guarantees by management with regard to what would happen to him, wasn't he?---I can't answer for what past management have offered. I wasn't - - -
PN900
I am not asking to you answer for past management, I am asking you, or I am putting to you that you are aware that certain guarantees were given to him? You are aware of that, aren't you?---I'm aware that Joe explained to me that he'd had previous promises made to him.
PN901
Did you make any inquiries of other people with regard to that?---Did I make inquiries - - -
PN902
Yes, to check the voracity of that proposition that he put to you?---No.
PN903
No, you didn't bother. So you accept Joe's word for that, do you?---The reason - I wasn't asked to pursue the issue, right, I was just made aware that he had some circumstances.
PN904
Yes. Yes, and Toyota management reneged on the promises they had given him; you are aware of that too?
PN905
MR DALTON: Well, he has answered the question as best he could, your Honour. He said that he was aware, because Mr Garcia had told him, so he can't answer whether the company reneged on promises, or not, he can only go on what Mr Garcia has said.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN906
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ask the question, Mr Addison.
PN907
MR ADDISON: So you are aware that Toyota management reneged on the agreement with Mr Garcia?---In those words, no.
PN908
Now, whose decision is it to move Joe?---The decision would be made by press shop management.
PN909
Yes, well, you are the general manager, aren't you?---That's correct.
PN910
Is that right?---That's correct.
PN911
So who made the decision to move Mr Garcia from the press shop?---The final decision would be made by Renato Cimarelli.
PN912
Would be? Was it?---Yes.
PN913
Okay, so Mr Cimarelli made the decision; is that correct?---Yes.
PN914
Okay, and when did he make that decision?---That decision would have been made on - the final decision was made and we relayed that to Joe on, I think on or about 2 September.
PN915
Now, Mr Cimarelli made the final decision you say; who was involved in the process of making the decision?---I was involved in that process.
PN916
Yes, and?---My role - are you asking my role now?
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN917
No, no, no, I said, who was involved in the decision to move Joe Garcia. I hear what you say about Cimarelli making the final decision, but you have couched it in that way, so there was obviously preliminary discussions prior to a decision being made?---Yes.
PN918
I am just trying to find out which individuals were involved in those preliminary discussions?---Right. So if I can expand on that: because this is a rotation between two areas - - -
PN919
Yes?--- - - - then there would have been the management that was involved with the other supervisor that was going to be rotated. There would also be the person that would be involved in supervising those people when they moved into that area. So in terms of the names of the individuals, there was Renato who's responsible for press shop.
PN920
Yes?---And there was Martin Nelson who was responsible for the body shop.
PN921
And anybody else?---And Tony Ashamala.
PN922
And yourself?---And myself.
PN923
What about Frank Baldwin?---Frank Baldwin was involved as the individual that was being transferred.
PN924
Okay, so there has been discussions with Frank about - - -?---Not about Joe. To the best of my knowledge, not about Joe transferring.
PN925
No, no, no, there has been discussions with Frank about moving?---About his movement? Yes.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN926
Yes, and, in fact, you say in your witness statement that Frank is a willing participant in the move? I can't remember where you said that, but you definitely said it. Yes, you said it at point 21:
PN927
Mr Baldwin was a willing participant in the rotation.
PN928
And he would be, wouldn't he? And he would be, wouldn't he?---I - - -
PN929
There is great advantages to Frank Baldwin in the rotation, isn't there?---Well, he saw there was and so did the company.
PN930
Yes, in fact, there is a huge financial benefit to Mr Baldwin to move?---Mm.
PN931
You agree with that, don't you?---No, the context behind the move was not made on financial grounds.
PN932
No, I accept that?---The context was made to - - -
PN933
I accept that. I accept that. The question was that there is a financial benefit, and I am not being critical of Mr Baldwin or you - - -?---No.
PN934
- - - in this respect, I am just simply saying there will be a financial benefit for Mr Baldwin to move?---I don't know that.
PN935
Well, I put - - -?---I'm not sure what the premise of the question is?
PN936
I put it to you that - you know that the overtime in the press shop is much higher than the overtime in the body shop, don't you?---Oh, what I put in my statement was that, historically, the overtime in both the body shop and the press shop had been comparable and I stick by that statement.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN937
Well, that might well be historically correct, I don't know, but you and I both know today, as things stand, the overtime in the press shop is significantly higher than the overtime available in the body shop; that is true, isn't it?---That's correct.
PN938
Yes, that is correct. So there has got to be a winner and a loser out of these things and in terms of the financial issues the winner is Frank Baldwin, if he decides to work the overtime, obviously, and the lower is Joe Garcia because he loses the capacity to earn that income; that is correct, isn't it?---No, he doesn't lose the capacity to earn that income. Overtime is not an entitlement. Overtime is based on the production requirements.
PN939
Well - - -?---And so, in body shop - - -
PN940
Well, that wasn't the question.
PN941
MR DALTON: Let him answer the question.
PN942
MR ADDISON: Well, I am happy for him to answer the question, Richard; I'm not happy for him to answer a different question.
PN943
The question was that there is an incentive for Frank Baldwin to move there because he has a capacity to earn more money. And Joe is the loser because he moves to an area where that capacity to earn extra money is no longer available to him. That is true, isn't it?---That is not the incentive for Frank Baldwin to move, no.
PN944
That is not the question. Please answer the question, it is really easy, right? If you listen to what I am saying you will get the question. The question is that Frank will move to the press shop and have a greater capacity to earn more money because there is more overtime available, whereas Joe will move to an area where there is less capacity for him to earn money because there is less overtime; that is correct, isn't it?---There is less overtime.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN945
That is correct, isn't it?---Yes.
PN946
Yes; thank you. Now, you say at point 5 of your witness statement that the reason for the transfer is career development of Joe; is that correct?---That's correct.
PN947
Then you know Joe has a number of issues, and I think Mr Dalton summarised it quite well with Joe this morning. They are, one: he believes he is being set up and he believes that this is payback for his attitude and his actions with regard to his previous manager, Mr Hunter; is that right, Mr Hunter? And, two, that there is a financial disadvantage to him. And, three, basically, the way it was carried out. Now, it is true that he is being paid back, isn't it?---Certainly not.
PN948
You deny that?---Paid back for what?
PN949
Paid back for he having the temerity to criticise his manager, Mr Hunter. He is getting paid for that, isn't he?---No. What criticism of Mr Hunter? What you are trying to say to me is that I was involved in the discussion which he had had 12 months earlier with senior management regarding his criticising of a manger. I had no involvement in that process whatsoever, so how can I comment?
PN950
So you don't know whether he is getting set up, or not?---I had no involvement in any discussions which Joe has had related to previous management.
PN951
So you don't know whether he is getting set up, or not?---On the question you're asking, no.
PN952
No? Okay. Now, it is true, isn't it, that the move was first raised with him during the period of time that Mr Hunter was still there?---Yes.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN953
And it is true that Mr Hunter was on the skids, isn't it?---No.
PN954
You were here this morning when Joe gave evidence that he had a meeting in June where he was told that Mr Hunter would get the sack?---But, certainly, I wasn't there, so that's - I mean, that's Joe's word, that's what Joe's saying occurred at that meeting. I wasn't at the meeting.
PN955
You are the general manager for the area?---That's correct.
PN956
Did you know Mr Hunter was going to get the sack?---No, I didn't know he was getting the sack.
PN957
No? Okay?---But certainly I was aware of his resignation when it occurred.
PN958
Yes?---And the process that led to that.
PN959
And the process that led to that?---Mm.
PN960
What was the process that led to that?---The process that led to that was between him and Renato Cimarelli regarding some performance issues.
PN961
Yes. Yes, that is performance issues that Mr Hunter had?---Correct.
PN962
He wasn't performing?---I didn't say that.
PN963
Yes, but that is true, isn't it?---No, there are performance issues which are between that individual and his manager.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN964
Okay. Now, the effect - the effect of the transfer will be, and if you go to your witness statement at paragraph 26? Mr Garcia will lose, first of all, after a month - a month after his transfer, he will lose 15 per cent of his wage; correct?---He will lose the early morning start; correct, which he has had for the last 10 weeks.
PN965
Maintenance of his 15 per cent of his early start loading he will continue to get that for a month?---That's correct.
PN966
And then it will disappear?---Correct.
PN967
So he will lose that?---Yes.
PN968
He will lose his ability to work overtime, which we have just been through, and - - -?---Can I qualify that, or not?
PN969
Well, no, Mr Dalton will take you to that if needs be. And after a month, again, he will lose his 5 am start which is more overtime again; that is correct, isn't it?---That's correct.
PN970
Yes. So there are significant financial issues for Mr Garcia; you would agree with that, wouldn't you?---There are some financial issues which need to be addressed, yes.
PN971
Yes. Now, Mr Marmara gave evidence that, as part of a genuine attempt to resolve this matter, he put to management a proposition that Mr Garcia would work in the body shop Monday through Friday?---Mm.
PN972
And then come back to the press shop to do overtime?---Mm.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN973
That was rejected?---That's correct.
PN974
Did you reject that?---No. No, but I could understand why it was rejected.
PN975
Were you involved in the decision to reject that?---No, I wasn't.
PN976
In that case it is not a question for you. I presume Mr Cimarelli rejected that?---I wasn't present at the meeting so I don't know who made that decision.
PN977
Okay, that is fine. Now, if I can take you to point 6 of your witness statement? You say that:
PN978
Rotations and transfers (secondments) are carried out frequently.
PN979
That is correct?---That's correct.
PN980
Tell me, they are all carried out, or all been carried out, or the vast majority have been carried out by agreement, haven't they?---By agreement?
PN981
By agreement?---Yes, except the circumstance which I explained to Mr Dalton previously.
PN982
Yes. The secondment policy requires agreement, doesn't it? Can the witness be shown A2, please?---Sorry?
PN983
You can show him mine, if you like? Can you show him the one that is on the file? Sorry, George?---What number is it? I have actually got it here, I think?
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN984
Sorry?---Is that what - - -
PN985
You haven't got it there. You haven't got it there, it has previously been tendered.
PN986
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just hang on a second, Mr Addison.
PN987
MR ADDISON: Sorry, your Honour, I didn't make a second copy of it.
PN988
Can you have a look at that? That is the Toyota secondment policy, isn't it?---Yes.
PN989
Now, if you go down three paragraphs below the bold points, the paragraphs, well, it is really a sentence rather than a paragraph, starting:
PN990
The employee, or manager, may initiate secondment opportunities -
PN991
blah-blah-blah -
PN992
where both affected managers and employee mutually agree secondments
PN993
comma - that is correct, isn't it?---But they may occur at any time of the year.
PN994
Well, there is a comma after the word "secondments" and before the word "they", isn't there?---Yes.
PN995
Yes, so there are separate statements, aren't there?---It's all part of the one paragraph.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN996
Yes?---Which has to be read in that context.
PN997
Well, so you say?---Well, sorry, it is my interpretation.
PN998
There is a practice, and there is a policy that secondments should be mutually agreed, isn't there?---Here? Yes.
PN999
Yes. Now, if I take you to your attachment, which is - well, it is attachment one, because there is only one attachment, did you produce attachment one?---Yes, I did.
PN1000
So you drew it up?---Yes.
PN1001
And it is quite clear that the position that you put to Joe on 2 September was that his transfer would be a secondment?---Correct.
PN1002
Yes. It says so in the box, in the middle. And you told Joe that he would be moving on the 16th, didn't you?---We told Joe on 2 September that he would be moving on the 16th.
PN1003
Yes. So you effectively gave him a fortnight's notice?---It actually was longer than that. I think it was about 1 October - - -
PN1004
Fourteen days notice?---Yes, no, sorry, but actually he got longer than that, yes.
PN1005
Yes, 14 days notice from the 2nd to the 16th?---Yes.
PN1006
Yes, so you gave him a fortnight's notice and you told him "You will be moving to the body shop in two weeks, on a secondment"?---Correct.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1007
Yes, now, Mr Garcia said to you, "Well, you can't do that because secondments have got to be by agreement", didn't he?---No, he didn't.
PN1008
Well, somebody said that to you, didn't they?---No, that was not said at all.
PN1009
Wasn't it?---Can I - - -
PN1010
Wasn't that put to you by Mr Larkin?---Sorry, you're talking about two different meetings.
PN1011
Well, okay. Okay, I do apologise. I am trying not to confuse you. There was a meeting with Mr Larkin on 15 September, the day before the transfer was proposed, and Mr Larkin told you that there was a dispute over the movement of Mr Garcia?---That's correct.
PN1012
But you knew that anyway, because you had been discussing it with Mr Marmara, hadn't you?---There had been a grievance raised, yes.
PN1013
Yes, and Mr Larkin said to you, or when I say "you" it is the generic "you", it is the Toyota "you", Mr Larkin said to Toyota management:
PN1014
We're in dispute. We want the status quo maintained.
PN1015
And you refused to do that, didn't you?---We agreed that the rotation of Frank Baldwin should continue and Joe was not at work at that stage. So at that stage it would have no impact on Joe.
PN1016
Well, regardless of that, you refused the status quo, didn't you?---We refused to move Frank Baldwin back into body shop, yes.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1017
Yes, that is right. In fact, you breached your own agreement, didn't you?---No, we don't believe we did.
PN1018
Now, the issue you went through with Mr Dalton earlier, as I recall it, you were saying that in May of this year there was a maintenance person you wanted to move?---That's correct.
PN1019
Into the body shop; that person had been given commitments by Toyota management in the past and those commitments had been reneged on; that is true, isn't it?---They hadn't been followed through; correct.
PN1020
Had not been followed through, reneged, same thing. And that you entered into discussions with that employee so that that employee could move?---We entered into the same discussions that we were having with - similar to Joe Garcia - - -
PN1021
Yes?--- - - - and we concluded the same as what we offered to Joe, is that we would put in writing how we wanted that transfer to occur.
PN1022
And that employee agreed with that, did he?---At the end, yes.
PN1023
Yes, so you reached an agreement with that person?---Yes.
PN1024
And the agreement was, one presumes, to the advantage of that employee, that maintenance employee?---Yes.
PN1025
Yes. Now - - -?---And the company.
PN1026
Now, yes, and in answer to my previous question, I had said to you that movements are carried out by agreement and you said, "Yes, except that one incident I went through with Mr Dalton"?---Mm.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1027
I put it to you that that movement which you went through with Mr Dalton was achieved by agreement?---In the end, yes.
PN1028
Yes, so I will re-put my question: movements at Toyota are done by agreement; that is correct, isn't it?---Through a process which reaches agreement, yes.
PN1029
Yes, and if you haven't got agreement then you don't move people; that is correct, isn't it?---No, it's not.
PN1030
You were here when Mr Marmara gave his evidence?---Mm.
PN1031
Mr Marmara indicated that a couple of years ago a similar incident to this occurred, that the blue collar worker was requested to move. The blue collar worker had so, "No, I'm not going to", for whatever reason - we don't know the reason. Mr Marmara didn't give evidence on that. Toyota forcibly tried to move him. The matter ended up in the Commission and Commissioner Foggo gave a recommendation that the company not forcibly move the person but that volunteers be sought. Are you aware of that issue?---No, I'm not.
PN1032
Can I ask if you were involved in the negotiations for the enterprise bargaining agreement?---Yes, I was.
PN1033
Yes, you were? Specifically, were you involved in the negotiation of clause 11 of the enterprise bargaining agreement?---I haven't got a copy so I can't copy, sorry.
PN1034
In fact, I don't need to give you that, because if you go to your witness statement, you go to paragraph 8. You extract 11.3 of the agreement there at paragraph 8. My question is, were you specifically involved in negotiating that set of words?---I was responsible for the signing-off of the agreement which included that.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1035
No, that is not my question, once again, Mr Harrod, try and answer my questions?---No, then no, I wasn't specifically in the working party which developed that particular part of the WPA.
PN1036
So you would not know what the intent of the working party was with regard to those words, would you?---I have an understanding of how it's to be applied, but the background behind it, no I wouldn't.
PN1037
No? No?---No.
PN1038
Answer my questions, please; no, we don't. Now, with regard to paragraph 9, you deal with appendix F, item 3, subparagraph (a) with regard to secondments. Were you specifically involved in negotiating those words?---No. No, I wasn't.
PN1039
No. Now, can I take you to clause 16.2 of your - paragraph 16.2 where you talk about "the opportunity", it is on page 6 of your witness statement. Now, you say that you made these points to Mr Garcia with regard to the advantages that you thought it would give him in terms of the move. First of all, you said to Mr Garcia, as I understand your evidence, that it would give him exposure to different management styles. Also, to - well, if I can just stop there at this point in time? You then put in brackets after that:
PN1040
(Previous press shop management had been an issue for Mr Garcia).
PN1041
Can I ask you what you mean by those words in the bracket?---My understanding of the discussions that we had with Joe was that he had some concerns regarding previous press shop management, and that issue was raised, as is well-documented, during those discussions.
PN1042
Yes?---That was all that I meant by that.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1043
Is that a criticism of Mr Garcia?---No, it's not.
PN1044
So are you saying that you want to expose Mr Garcia to the same style of management that he had a problem with prior?---I'm not suggesting that, no.
PN1045
No? Okay. So you say that is the first advantage for him. The second advantage you say that is significant for him is that he would have exposure to different people. Isn't Mr Garcia in daily contact with the body shop?---As I explained earlier, working through the systems and the processes on a day-to-day basis continuously, would expose Joe to those systems, to the daily problems and, together with his peers, he would develop a greater understanding of how they could be applied in the press shop.
PN1046
Yes, and you also say:
PN1047
It would give him a great appreciation of customer requirements.
PN1048
Now, as I understand the press shop's customer, if you want to use those terms, it is, in fact, the body shop; that is right, isn't it?---It is the body shop and it's also unit assembly too.
PN1049
Yes, well, the press shop presses panels, doesn't it?---That's correct.
PN1050
And those panels are then, as I understand the system, those panels are then sent to the body shop and the body shop assembles them - - -?---That's correct.
PN1051
- - - into a - into a shell?---Yes.
PN1052
Yes, so the main customer, if I can put it that way, for a press shop would be the body shop?---Yes.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1053
Yes, and because of that, and Mr Garcia gave evidence this morning that it is part of his role as the general foreman in the press shop, he is in constant communication with the body shop in terms of ensuring that the service he is delivering is satisfactory, and being involved with those people, the customers; that is correct, isn't it?---That's correct, yes.
PN1054
Yes. So - no, I will leave that. Now, describe these propositions that you put to Mr Garcia: he has said to you, "I don't agree", hasn't he?---Yes.
PN1055
Yes, in fact, Mr Garcia doesn't see that there would be any benefit to him in this rotation; that is correct, isn't it?---That's what he says, yes.
PN1056
Yes, yet you still persist?---We believe there's an opportunity to exchange between the two, between Frank Baldwin and also between Joe Garcia, to make improvements in their supervision, yes.
PN1057
You see, I put it to you that that doesn't make sense. The old saying is that "one volunteer is worth 10 pressed men"; you would know that saying, no doubt?---No, I don't, sorry, I don't.
PN1058
And you have got a clear position where is saying "There is no benefit for me, I think it's nonsense. I'm not going to move. I think what you're doing, you're doing to punish me and I think you're doing it for improper motives." Yet you still persist; why?---There seems to be a lack of preparedness to even try. I think, as we've seen here today, is that Joe's not even been prepared to even have a go at moving to the body shop for a short period of time to understand the issues that we're talking about.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1059
Okay, and you seem to be so insistent that it happens as quickly as possible, I mean, on 15 September when Mr Larkin said to you, "We've got a dispute. Hang on. Hang on. We'll go through the process. We'll go to the Program Resolution Committee. We'll take it to Charlie and the boys up there. If they can't fix it, we'll got to the Commission. We'll argue it through in front of the Commission. We'll come to a position." You still said, "No, it's going to happen tomorrow"?---In terms of the chronology of events, this particular discussion had been going on for some time and we do have within our Workplace Agreement, a disputes resolution procedure. And all we were doing, we were managing it through that process.
PN1060
Yes, and your disputes resolution procedure says:
PN1061
The status quo will be maintained -
PN1062
doesn't it?---In those circumstances where it affects that individual, yes, and Joe was not at work at that point in time and Frank Baldwin was a willing partner in the rotation into the body - into the press shop.
PN1063
Yes. Now, can I ask you what you mean at paragraph 27? Paragraph 27, at the end of that paragraph, you talk in paragraph 27 about the additional financial inducements to get Mr Garcia to move and they deal with the 15 per cent lasting for a month and the 5 am, 7 am starts gradually disappearing over a month, but you say at the end of paragraph 27:
PN1064
The additional discretionary inducements, I do not propose to withdraw these inducements at this stage.
PN1065
Can I ask what you mean by that?---So what we have previously offered her to Joe is something we would only offer on a case-by-case situation. We don't necessarily offer inducements, but what we try to do is to understand the individual set of circumstances to resolve that transfer, to make the necessary changes.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1066
But you do offer inducements, don't you? You have given evidence that a maintenance person was given inducements?---He was given a letter of understanding.
PN1067
Isn't that an inducement?---If you classify that, or define that as inducement, I say it is a letter of understanding between the company and the union regarding - - -
PN1068
I say it is an agreement, don't you?---Sorry, you're talking about inducements.
PN1069
Yes. Yes, and there is something in an agreement for people?---It's not an inducement.
PN1070
Okay, fair enough. Now, Mr Garcia has said to you that he believes that what Toyota are doing they are doing for improper motives?---He didn't say that to me, no.
PN1071
Well, he said that to Toyota and it is contained in Mr Dalton's outline of submissions. Now, did you instruct Ms Waters to carry out the investigation with regard to the allegations raised by Mr Garcia?---No, I did not.
PN1072
Do you know who did?---No, I don't.
PN1073
Okay. Ms Waters spoke to you with regard to that?---Yes, she did.
PN1074
Her investigation?---Yes.
PN1075
And you explained your version of events and said you had a number of reasons why you wanted Mr Garcia to move into another area for a temporary period but they were directed at deploying Mr Garcia, not because of any desire to victimise him. You made it clear that the rotation were for his and Frank Baldwin's development and was in no way motivated by what may have occurred in the past between Mr Garcia and managers?---Yes.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1076
Now, did Ms Waters' report reflect that?---Reflect?
PN1077
What you had said to her, paragraph 22 of your witness statement, by the way?---It reflects the reasons I gave for the transfer rotation secondment of J. Garcia to the body shop and Frank Baldwin to the press shop.
PN1078
And Ms - - - ?---And my reasons for doing that was based on development.
PN1079
That is Right. Now, Ms Waters, has she produced a report?---I haven't seen the report.
PN1080
You haven't seen the report, okay. So how did she communicate to you her findings?---My - she communicated to me that there was no further substance in what she'd investigated and she believed that the transfer was related to the development opportunities.
PN1081
Okay?---And that it wasn't as has been claimed here, a form of victimisation.
PN1082
That is right, but that is what you told her?---That's what she told me, yes.
PN1083
No, that is what you told her; that is what you say - - -?---Yes.
PN1084
- - - at paragraph 22?---Yes.
PN1085
Paragraph 22, you say that she came to see you?---Yes.
PN1086
On 17 September I met with Ms Waters. She was investigating Garcia's complaints that he was being victimised and harassed. I explained my version of the events that -
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1087
that is you and said, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, what we have just gone through.
PN1088
Now, that is what you told her. "I have", well, we are not going to know this because Ms Waters isn't being called, but one presumes if she is doing an investigation she would have talked to Mr Garcia too and one presumes he would have told her his version of events, which he has told us under oath this morning, that is that he believes he is being victimised and harassed. Yet, Ms Waters' conclusion, if I can put it that way, was that your version of events was correct?---I don't know that.
PN1089
That is right, isn't it?---I don't know that.
PN1090
Well - - -?---I was - I was part of that investigation. I was asked my reasons for the rotation to occur. I responded to that.
PN1091
Well, in paragraph 23 you say:
PN1092
In mid-September, or early October Ms Waters informed me that she had investigated Mr Garcia's allegation of victimisation and harassment and decided that there was no substance in them.
PN1093
?---That is right.
PN1094
So - - -?---And that it was as we said regarding the reason for rotation.
PN1095
Yes. You haven't seen a report?---I haven't, no.
PN1096
Okay. Well, no doubt Mr Cimarelli will have, hopefully. Now, Ms Waters is also the human resources person for the press shop and body shop, isn't she?---Correct.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD XXN MR ADDISON
PN1097
So there was an advantage to Ms Waters finding the way she did, wasn't there?---I don't know that.
PN1098
You don't know that?---No.
PN1099
Okay. I have nothing further for this witness, your Honour.
PN1100
PN1101
MR DALTON: Mr Harrod, on the overtime question, I think you accepted that at this point in time the press shop was working more overtime than body shop?---That's correct.
PN1102
Is that likely to continue and, if so, for how long, and how do you know whether someone is going to be disadvantaged in the future, or not?---Yes. It's very hard to say. Body shop have been reducing their level of overtime. That has been achieved by the improvement in efficiency of the operations and so when you look at where we were at the start of the year, we were running at about 75, 78 per cent efficiency, we're now running at 89, 90 per cent. So, basically, what that means is, we're producing more of our requirements on the day during normal time. So that has resulted in some of the reduction. In terms of the press shop their overtime is being largely impacted by the need to introduce new equipment and that new equipment necessitates us pre-building, that means building panels in extra time so that we can shut that equipment down whilst we do those major modifications to that equipment. And if you look at the overtime, that has significantly impacted the levels of overtime being worked in the press shop at the moment. That will continue on at least this year, till Christmas. We have got another two robots going in over the Christmas shut and then we have some other issues next year, but I would see that that overtime will progressively reduce next year.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD RXN MR DALTON
PN1103
Now, secondments. You were asked a question by Mr Addison:
PN1104
Is it the position under the policy that secondments should be mutually agreed?
PN1105
And I think you answered "yes"; I am just a bit unclear on the word "should"? Do you take that to mean that it is desirable to get agreement when you are implementing a secondment, or do you take it to mean that the secondment must be by agreement and can only proceed by agreement?---It is desirable, and if we can't there's a process to manage that.
PN1106
All right. What is the normal process for conducting an investigation regarding, or commencing an investigation regarding harassment? Is it normal process for you as the senior manager of any area, for example, to be aware of a matter that requires investigation?---If there was an equal opportunity issue then, yes, I'd be made aware of it.
PN1107
Okay. Do you conduct the investigation, or do - is it up to you - - -?---No, I have - - -
PN1108
- - - to appoint an investigator, or - - -?---I have - no, it's purely just as an awareness thing, that I'm aware that it's an investigation being conducted.
PN1109
Okay. No more questions.
PN1110
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Harrod, as I understand the move, proposed move, it is that Mr Garcia goes from the press shop to the body shop and does Mr Baldwin's job?---He actually - - -
PN1111
Mr Baldwin - - -?---No, he doesn't, no. What actually happens is, as I tried to explain earlier, there are actually three people involved in this move. Frank Baldwin looks after an area which is called "the main jig line", that is the area where all the panels come together, they are welded - - -
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD RXN MR DALTON
PN1112
What is it called?---Main jig line.
PN1113
Yes?---And then from there it goes into what we call "a shell body line". The shell body line is the area then where we look at the exterior of the vehicle in terms of the fit of the doors, the fenders and those sorts of things, we buy it off there. And Mr Darren Wylie, who is actually also in the information you have there on the pay, he is - he was currently in charge of that area, so Darren Wylie will go into Frank Baldwin's job; Frank Baldwin then goes into Joe Garcia's job; and Joe Garcia then goes into Darren Wylie's job. So there's three people actually involved in it.
PN1114
So is it really an exchange between Joe Garcia and Darren Wylie?---No, because Frank Baldwin is the one who is going into the press shop. Darren Wylie still remains in the body shop.
PN1115
Darren is going into the - - -?---Main jig line.
PN1116
He is going into Frank Baldwin's job?---That's correct, yes.
PN1117
Right. And Darren Wylie and Mr Garcia are general foremen S5?---That's correct.
PN1118
Are they lesser classifications than Mr Baldwin?---Mr Baldwin is a - is 6, I believe.
PN1119
Is that a higher classification?---That's a higher classification.
PN1120
Do you know how much in money terms how much higher it is?---It will be in the WPA. It should be in the back.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD RXN MR DALTON
PN1121
MR ADDISON: It is in the agreement, your Honour?---If you go right to the very back of the agreement.
PN1122
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I must say I couldn't find it, that is why I asked?---Go right to the back. Just before the calendar it should be and it - - -
PN1123
It is before the calendar, is it?---I think it is.
PN1124
MR ADDISON: Your Honour, I think the supervisor 5 is listed here as $1117.91 from August - oh, sorry, that is August '01?---S5 is 6.
PN1125
February '03, it is 1232.50 and a 6, is 1310.22.
PN1126
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Here we go.
PN1127
MR ADDISON: That is the base.
PN1128
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: S5 and S6. So at the moment - so at the moment the S5 is 1232.50.
PN1129
MR ADDISON: Yes.
PN1130
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And the S6, 1310.22?---So if I could add to that, the only difference to that wage rate would be any competencies which they have also been given as a result of performance and the maximum is 10 per cent.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD RXN MR DALTON
PN1131
Right. Is there a difference in the work value between the job that Mr Baldwin does in the body shop and that Mr Wylie, or Mr - does in the body shop?---It's difficult to compare because we only have a generic job description between the two so if you are an SGF, or GF in the press shop then the same functional responsibilities are the same in the body shop, but they would be different. They would be different between the two areas, but there is a generic job description which covers both areas.
PN1132
Is the generic job description for different pay rates?---No. No, the same. The pay rate and probably the HR people are better at answering that than I am, but the pay rates are based on their experience in the level in the organisation, so it's not based on job difference between body shop and press shop and SGF in the body shop and SGF in the press shop would be on the same level of pay, the only difference could be, would be the competency and skill payments that the individual has attained over that period of time. But the base rate - the base rate would be the same.
PN1133
Is there a different job description for the general foremen and the senior general foremen?---There is a different generic job description, yes.
PN1134
Thank you.
PN1135
MR DALTON: Perhaps - just a question arising from those questions, your Honour.
PN1136
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
PN1137
MR DALTON: Mr Baldwin is moving into the press shop but he is an SGF?---Yes.
PN1138
Is he doing the same job as Mr Garcia?---Yes, he would be.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD RXN MR DALTON
PN1139
So what - - -?---At the moment he is not, but he would be.
PN1140
Right, so why do you have an SGF, because they are paid at a higher amounts, aren't they?---Yes. There's an expectation that they perform at a higher level and have greater responsibilities; there is an expectation.
PN1141
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hang on, whose job is Mr Baldwin going to be performing?---He'll be performing Joe Garcia's.
PN1142
So why is he going to get paid more?---Because we have agreed there will be no - for the secondment period - - -
PN1143
Yes?--- - - - there'd be no disadvantage in their wages during that period of time. This is only a secondment for 12 months. It's not a permanent transfer.
PN1144
Yes?---It's only for 12 months and then Mr Baldwin will return back into the body shop into his position, into his previous position. It's only for a set period of time.
PN1145
Is Mr, if I can find his name - - -?---Mr Wylie?
PN1146
Mr Wylie; is he going to get paid an SGF rate?---He is not being paid an SGF rate, no.
PN1147
But he is going to do Mr Baldwin's - - -?---But he will be doing his functional responsibilities.
PN1148
MR ADDISON: So does that mean he gets the SGF rate when he goes in there?---He hasn't been, no. That's the next grievance.
**** CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD RXN MR DALTON
PN1149
That is the next grievance, indeed.
PN1150
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I ask why that is? I will ask why that is?---Yes, I don't know what the reason is he hasn't been paid. There is a grievance on the issue. A grievance was raised last Friday and we're working through that grievance at the moment.
PN1151
Thank you. Any other questions?
PN1152
MR ADDISON: Your Honour, we had agreed earlier that we would try and finish at 4, at least Mr Dalton and I had, and I asked you when you came back. If it is appropriate, I would seek to do that, it is just that I have another commitment. But before we do, your Honour, I raised - and maybe we should go off the record.
PN1153
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
OFF THE RECORD [3.56pm]
PN1154
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will adjourn this matter until 8.30 tomorrow morning.
ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2003 [4.00pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #A4 AMWU OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS PN23
EXHIBIT #A5 STATEMENT OF MR ALISIC PN23
EXHIBIT #A6 STATEMENT OF NICK FELTON PN23
EXHIBIT #A7 STATEMENT OF PETER DAVIS PN23
EXHIBIT #A8 STATEMENT OF JELA MARTINOVIC PN23
EXHIBIT #B4 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS OF COMPANY. PN34
JOSE GARCIA, SWORN PN39
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ADDISON PN39
EXHIBIT #A9 STATEMENT OF JOSE GARCIA PN48
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DALTON PN285
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ADDISON PN684
WITNESS WITHDREW PN688
CHARLIE JOE MARMARA, SWORN PN689
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ADDISON PN689
EXHIBIT #A10 STATEMENT OF MR CHARLIE MARMARA PN698
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DALTON PN783
WITNESS WITHDREW PN856
CHRISTOPHER PAUL HARROD, SWORN PN859
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DALTON PN859
EXHIBIT #B5 STATEMENT OF MR CHRISTOPHER HARROD PN867
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ADDISON PN889
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DALTON PN1101
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