C2003/935, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 631 (26 February 2003)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 60-70 Elizabeth St SYDNEY NSW 2000
DX1344 Sydney Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER CARGILL

C2003/935

AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS, ENGINEERING, PRINTING AND KINDRED INDUSTRIES UNION

and

WADEPACK PTY LIMITED

Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re redundancy

SYDNEY

10.55 AM, MONDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 2003

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I have appearances please?

PN2

MR A. CURRIE: Representing Australian Manufacturing and Workers Union.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Currie.

PN4

MR J. TAMPLIN: I appear for the Printing Industries Association of Australia and member company Wadepack Limited.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Currie.

PN6

MR CURRIE: Thank you Commissioner. Commissioner, the two gentlemen with me today MAX DESSMANN and BRIAN PERCY had their employment terminated last week. It is feared today revolves around two issues. The first one being whether the redundancy clause as outlined in the EBA was followed and the second one whether there were other decisions within the company that could have been filed by the terminated employees. It is the union's position that there and that the two workers have been discriminated against.

PN7

Commissioner, I was contacted by Max Dessmann last Tuesday, 4 February in regards to a memo that he'd received from the company. Now the memo talked about the restructure of a music department and I should very briefly explain what a music department is. The gentlemen involved work in a different machine that prints covers for CDs, sleeves, things of that nature. So they received this memo, told of the restructure of the music department and it basically told them they'd been written to regarding the above machine. The company were reviewing its operations, in particular its operating costs and they were considering the implementation of an attached structure.

PN8

Now basically to take structure it just said that the music department was no longer required and it went on to list the people that worked there. Seven people in total, a manager, two printers, two folders and two people in dispatch and packing. It said to them during this period they had a few days to respond to this memo and during this period the company asked them to put forward any alternatives that they believed would offset the implementation of a new structure. Basically it said you must take this issue seriously and I wait the reply. Now, they organised a second meeting - the first thing I should say for Wednesday 5 February.

PN9

At this meeting we were again told by John Yenn that the music session was losing money. Various graphs were presented that reinforced that view, basically showed a downward slide. They were asked for their input and they were assured that no decisions had been made about redundancy. Now they did make several proposals. The first was that they moved the machine in front of the area.

PN10

The reason that suggestion came forward was that in this memo they were saying that the area is used by the music department and will be used for storing plates and printed work. So they suggested moving the machine to another section so they could continue on. They also offered to perform more duties. As I said initially there were seven people involved in the area. They suggested that the three people who had been earmarked for redundancy, there was another person involved would operate the section by themselves.

PN11

They said if that wasn't a proposals, if that was unacceptable they would offer to retrain in other areas and they were quite willing to work other shifts to do what the company needed. A number of comments were made then, made about their length of service, their experience, the range of machinery that they worked on and the two gentlemen involved have extensive history in the printing industry. Brian has 35 years experience as a printer, Max I think has about 42 years experience, now, so they are vastly experienced people.

PN12

Brian, for argument's sake, as I said worked as a printer, he is also a guillotine operator, he can work bindery equipment, he has been effective supervisor, he has been printing supervisor. They are very experience, they know what they are on about. Management thanked them for their input, they said that the proposals put forward were something that they had not considered. A meeting was organised for a following date at 12 pm.

PN13

Now at this meeting again graphs were presented showing a downturn at work. John Yenn stated reasons why he believed that the work would not return and he mentioned things such as CD burners, lathing machines, scanners etcetera. He quoted figures from overseas, figures from Australia that proves that in his mind that the music industry is basically dead and buried. Then he told Max and Brian of his decision to terminate their employment immediately. They were basically told, go down stairs, say goodbye, thank you very much.

PN14

Now there was no surprise we expected that answer and we don't dispute that there is a downturn of work, there clearly is a down turn of work. Max and Brian both confirm this. The crux of this matter as the union sees it revolves around two separate issues. The first is whether the voluntary redundancy provisions of the agreement were followed. If I could take the Commission to page 5 and 6 of the agreement, at clause 14, paragraph 2, it clearly states:

PN15

In the case of the company reducing the size of its operations the company shall initially call for voluntary redundancy.

PN16

It clearly never happened. On the Wednesday they had made no decision about redundancy, on the Thursday they made up their mind, that these two gentlemen were going to get terminated immediately. They didn't follow the procedure, they picked who they wanted. When we questioned John Yenn as to why, he said he believed that no one else would have volunteered. Well Commissioner, that is irrelevant. They should have followed the procedure set out. What is it for if they can't follow it.

PN17

As the Commission is aware, this company has a history of ignoring the provisions of various awards and agreements when it does not suit them. We've been here before you many times with problems is that this is the company that instigated. The second is that we have and possibly a more contentious one is whether redundancies are actually necessary, we do not believe they are. Now the union is aware, and the company has confirmed this last week, that there are printing positions available on other machines.

PN18

These positions have been offered to ex-employees working outside of the company. They've not started employment yet. The reason these positions are available is that the company have very recently at the cost of several million dollars brought a new multicolour press in. A huge machine. We ask the question, why could Max and Brian be retrained. We are quite aware that the company has in the past done that. They have retrained people. They've moved them from machine to machine. Having saved time to do. I'm quite sure that they've been aware of this downturn for quite some time and in fact the company tried to sell the music department last November.

PN19

So they've been aware that there's been problems there for a while. They've had plenty of time to train these people or offer them a retraining. They haven't done it. Now the company has replied to our queries as to why they haven't been trained was that Brian had received training and that he was no good. They indicated some figures to prove it but we would ask them to qualify their statements against what yardsticks did they measure his performance? How did the other printers perform when they first started a new machine?

PN20

As I said before Brian is a very experienced printer. He's been with the studio company for 15 years. If he could not print he would not be there still. I should point out that when you work on a press Commissioner you work with an offsider, you work as a team and it does take time to build up a rapport with that person. Brian had four different offsiders in four different months. He wasn't going to take over.

PN21

Now with Max we asked the question, why wasn't he offered training on another machine. John Yenn stated last Thursday that Max was never offered training because of his attitude and warnings that he'd received previously. John Yenn then went on the highlight the grievances that he had with Max. He found that he was perpetually late and he quote that he'd been late 10 times in the last month. Commissioner that might be true but it was only a few minutes a day and what John Yenn didn't mention was the fact that Max leaves late everyday. He works back, he makes up for the time. Considering that by his own admission that there's no work there what matter is it if he is one minute late if there's no work for him to do?

PN22

He mentioned smoking on the premises which a huge issue of Johns. He claimed he stubbed his cigarettes out near the front door, and throws them on the ground. He claimed that visitors come on the factory floor without signing in. Now these visitors are union officials and that probably has happened but Max has no control over that. It is not Max's fault they don't sign in, he doesn't tell them to do that, they do it. The Commission will have noticed that none of these issues relate to the quality of Max's work, that is not in question. Again, similar to Brian he has been there for 13 years. If he could not print he would not be there.

PN23

The fourth thing he brought up last week was that Max is disruptive on the factory floor, we believe that this is probably the real issue. Max is the FAC of this company, Brian is an active union member. Brian, in fact, the company is asked to act as a witness when there is some sort of dispute or disagreement with management. I think that in management's view Max is seen as a troublemaker. I don't believe he is. He is a strong advocate of the award and worker's rights. When he sees something that is wrong he will act upon it.

PN24

This is not support of management and consequently they clash. I believe that there is clearly a bias against Max because of this. If I could Commissioner I will give you an example that occurred last week. Now in front of witnesses Max was told:

PN25

I've told you before, if you are not involved in the union you will have a job for life.

PN26

This came from the director of the company. A supervisor then asked by Max, what make is the new printing press that has come into the company? Max was told not to worry about it because you will never get on it. He asked to be retrained. He was told, you are too old to work on other presses. I have been terminated last week, having supervisors, I get in front of witnesses, laugh about them and state that their bundy cards could be used as dart boards. I think it speaks for itself, Commissioner, the company's attitude towards these two workers.

PN27

Commissioner, it is the unions view that the grievances of the company against Max should have no bearing on whether or not he is offered a position on another press. The quality of his and Brian's work has never been questioned. Both printers are vastly experienced. They are highly competent and they have worked on a wide variety of machines. If they were given an opportunity they would produce work to the company's expectations. They ask only to be treated fairly. The company sees fit not to give them that opportunity.

PN28

In conclusion, Commissioner, I would ask for the Commission to take note that clause 14 of the Wadepack Enterprise Agreement 2002 was not followed. I would also ask the Commission to take note that other positions of the company are available and that these positions were never offered to the terminated employees, even though they do have the experience to fill these roles.

PN29

The union notes that under section 170LW of the Workplace Relations Act, the Commission has the power to settle disputes and we ask for the Commissions assistance. We also ask the Commission to take note of clause 3.2.8 of a dispute settlement procedure in the Graphic Arts Award 2000 where it states that:

PN30

Where the ...(reads)... in the dispute.

PN31

The union seeks the Commissions assistance in having these two workers reinstated until such time or times that the dispute is resolved. Thank you, your Honour.

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Currie. Yes, Mr Tamplin?

PN33

MR TAMPLIN: In a lot of the issues that my friend has raised there is some accord in specifically what the music division does. The music division was a part of another plant and was brought over to Wadepack approximately five years ago. At that plant there operated three Solner presses and a Komori. They were all small presses. The company itself employs approximately 180 employees at Villawood and other plants.

PN34

The equipment that is being installed is the latest available. It cost $4.6 million. It prints three times the speed of the Komori that was at the music division. It is approximately twice the size. It has six printing units, double coaters to put a coating on either side of the sheet. It has full UV drawing capacity and it has total computer control. The Komori that Mr Dessmann uses has nothing other than four printing units. The difference is fuel levels is profound.

PN35

On 28 January 2003 the company forwarded to the employees of the music section a copy of this document and I would seek to table that. I will pass one to my friend. He referred to it in his submissions.

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: That's in the matter Mr Currie was talking about, is it, Mr Tamplin?

PN37

MR TAMPLIN: Yes. It is a document on Wadepack heading. It is dated 28 January and is addressed to, Dear Anne, it says:

PN38

Restructure of the music department. I write to you regarding ...(reads)... director.

PN39

Attached to that is the structure that my friend referred to. It indicates that:

PN40

The manager of the section will be transferred to purchasing manager. That the printers, Mr Dessmann and Mr Percy will no longer be required. That the folding of Mr Muin will be transferred to CNC. S. Percy will be transferred to the gluing section because is no longer required and the packing dispatching, C. Loveridge to be transferred to gluing. A Sharpe, the company terminated its contract with the cleaning company and Ms Sharpe has accepted that decision as an employee.

PN41

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Tamplin, this correspondence went to all of those persons, did it?

PN42

MR TAMPLIN: Yes, in that section.

PN43

THE COMMISSIONER: Except perhaps for the manager, I don't know whether the manager got one. But the other employees in the section?

PN44

MR TAMPLIN: Yes. The company then held a meeting with the employees and in particular those that couldn't transfer, namely Mr Dessmann and Mr Percy. In the first meeting, Anne Sharpe was there. That is the lady who is at the bottom of the list in the pattern dispatching area. At that meeting there were certain graphs put forward to the employees. Issues raised about the viability of the company. Issues raised about the changes to technology influencing the manufacture and printing of CD disc inserts and as well CD discs.

PN45

The employees raised certain issues for the company to consider. They were, relocate the music department and that way possibly have two people doing the work instead of six. Relocation, Mr Percy would run the guillotine and bind the equipment and would also do dispatch. Mr Dessmann suggested he could do printing and dispatch. Anne Sharpe suggested she could do dispatch and a computer stock control in Lotus.

PN46

The company queried whether there was a real reduction of people in real terms associated with relocation. Mr Percy and Mr Dessmann were to move to the printing work or other positions in the factory as another alternative. They were prepared to change their shifts. However, they would not accept a reduction in wages. Mr Dessmann suggested that the Komori machine that he operated on could be modified to run packaging work because of the drop of work in the CD area. The machine could be redeveloped and updated.

PN47

We then asked what other equipment the employees had operated. Mr Dessmann advised he had operated all printing equipment from Komori, Heidelbergs, Rolands. My writing is poor, I think it is carton cardboard containers, he was employed at. Brian Percy had operated Perle, Champion, Solner, Komori, Heidelberg, Roland and had operated a piece of equipment in the factory called, a Favorit. Anne suggested she could be transferred as she had computer skills. The company took those suggestions on board and that meeting was attended by Mr Currie and walked away to consider what had been put. In fact Mr Percy's input was thanked because the relocation had not been contemplated by the company and it was one for good consideration.

PN48

I have here a copy of the minutes of the following day and I would seek to tender those. Commissioner, perhaps we should mark the first one.

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: I will mark it as Wadepack 1.

MFI #WADEPACK1 COPY OF MINUTES OF MEETING, DATED 05/02/03

PN50

MR TAMPLIN: And this, it may be appropriate to mark it Wadepack 2, unless my friend objects to the contents of the minute.

PN51

THE COMMISSIONER: This first meeting, Mr Tamplin, was that the one on the 5th?

PN52

MR TAMPLIN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN53

THE COMMISSIONER: So then the second one was on the 6th. Is there any difficulty with that being marked, Mr Currie?

PN54

MR CURRIE: I beg your pardon?

PN55

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any difficulty with me marking this second one as Wadepack 2?

PN56

MR CURRIE: No there is not, Commissioner.

PN57

THE COMMISSIONER: That will be Wadepack2.

MFI #WADEPACK2 RESPONSE TO SUGGESTIONS RAISED BY EMPLOYEES, DATED 06/02/03

PN58

MR TAMPLIN: I am sorry I have just been informed it is not the minutes it is a response to the suggestions raised by the employees in particular each of those that they put forward. It says in this:

PN59

Dated February 6, 2003. Response to suggestions raised at the meeting held on 5/2/03 to discuss to discuss the restructure of the music division.

PN60

In point 1 they go through the significant cost to relocate the music division. That is the disassembly of the printing units and presses and then the re-establishment or relocation of those to another part of the factory. A cost on its own. There was also reference to a world-wide decline in the sales of CDs brought about by the advent of CD burners and direct access from the internet:

PN61

Wadepack has lost work to its opposition because it couldn't go to the cost advantages of computer disks - to plate.

PN62

The staff savings by relocation would be minimal as at least three people were required to do the work. There would be, in the company's view, negligible savings as the other two employees involved had about five per cent of their time taken up by the music division:

PN63

Investment in the upgrading the Komori would not be cost-effective in that it has a limited sheet size and stock thickness capacity.

PN64

That is the thickness of the paper.

PN65

Maximum thickness is 350 to 400 um and this would severely limit the work it could do.

PN66

The point there, and handwritten beside it, is that work is not required anyway. Andrew Currie indicated that he had no doubt that Max and Brian would be capable of running larger presses. The company's three shift supervisors disagreed with that assessment. Ernie and Greg have extensive experience and success as printers on the machines. With the advent of the new press there will be a major reorganisation of the work that will require less capacity of the smaller presses and more in the larger machines. At the bottom of the handwritten - losses suffered by the division for number, $4,725. December $12,518. January $6365. A graph was supplied to the employees to indicate where the company was going and also an advertisement taken from a newspaper.

PN67

MR CURRIE: No, John, sorry. That's directly off a carton we manufacture.

PN68

MR TAMPLIN: This is off a carton that the company is manufacturing. It says, "CD stomper" and advertises making your own label on the CD that you have downloaded the music onto from the internet. So, it is no longer a blank CD you can actually put your own label and printing on it. The amount of downloading from the internet, of music, had reached the stage where you can produce your own hard copy of it.

PN69

The company when attending - it displayed all these figures before the employees on the meeting of the 6th including printouts of the work on the other machines that they considered if the employees could be transferred over. There is declining work on those because when the when the new machine comes on board, and it is still at the stage of being assembled, its work volume will increase significantly, and it will take work off the existing machines.

PN70

Mr Yen, prior to that meeting - after having considered all the things that had been raised by the employees and then discussing them with other management representatives - wrote to Mr Ashon Nassibian who is the owner of the company. Advising, "Further to our discussions ..." and I would hand this up Commissioner and seek to have that marked as well. I will pass a copy over to my friend for his perusal and then seek to have it back. Unless my friend objects, Commissioner, I would seek to have that marked as well.

PN71

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that okay with you, Mr Currie? You have seen the document.

PN72

MR CURRIE: I have seen the document, yes.

PN73

THE COMMISSIONER: I will mark that as Wadepack 3.

PN74

MR TAMPLIN: Thank you, Commissioner.

MFI #WADEPACK3 LETTER FROM MR YENN TO MR ASHON NASSIBIAN

PN75

MR TAMPLIN: In the email from Mr Yenn to the proprietor he advises:

PN76

Further to our discussions re the music division and its lack of profitability and limited future for growth ...(reads)... be able to give them in finding employment elsewhere.

PN77

Mr Yenn then asked:

PN78

Should I proceed with closing down the music division.

PN79

The proprietor advises:

PN80

It is unfortunate that after all these years it has come to the situation but like you I do not see any other way but to close down the music areas.

PN81

The proprietor owned the music division prior to purchasing Wadepack. It was his company. I would now seek to table minutes of the meeting of the 6 March. I pass a copy over to my friend.

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: March?

PN83

MR TAMPLIN: I'm sorry, 6 February, Commissioner. The year is going fast enough without hastening it. In attendance at this meeting there were Mr Yen, myself, Andrew Currie, Mr Dessmann, Mr Percy, Ms Sandra Morris and a Mr Peter Murphy as well as the person taking the minutes.

PN84

Mr Yenn in the first paragraph advises that he'd been able to find an alternative for Miss Sharp. The decision to transfer her and to close the contractors work was made that morning and it was offered her then which she accepted. Mr Yenn advises that he had considered the thoughts and suggestion from their meeting yesterday. He showed a graph of sales figures for the music department for the last three years indicating a constant decline in sales over the three years apart from one month which produced a box for Summit Technology that had 80 per cent of the work done outside. Max did mention that he did some work for this job but the figures show 80 per cent of the job was done on other machines.

PN85

Mr Yenn in the next paragraph advises the Summit are now doing a volume 2 of the series and have given no indication that Wadepack would be getting the work. Another sample was shown of a Avery Dennison job that we currently do showing there is now a CD label machine available for people that now burn their own CDs, which is the document that I held up to you earlier for the companies ..... Brian's suggestions were then gone into and explanations given. It was also spoken about Bernie and Jennie's work, which was the two management people, or two other employees and their low input into the music section. The upgrading of the Komori was discussed and issues put forward as to why it was not only impractical but it was it was not cost effective.

PN86

Mr Yenn also stated that there is sufficient staff in all areas of Wadepack. We do not have any other jobs to offer them. Max and Brian indicated they would not be prepared to drop money to accept other positions. Mr Currie raised the point regarding an ex-employee of Wadepack being enticed back to the company to run the new press and some discussion went around this in that why wasn't that offered to, or the work - why wasn't another printer displaced to learn that work there by opening up a position for Mr Dessmann or Mr Percy at $4.2 million for the new press - sorry, 4.6? You need to have the press running at full capacity immediately to justify the costs, it cannot sit idle. The person that the company is seeking to run the press already runs a similar machine for a competitor. The company has asked the X employee of Wadepack who had gone to the competitor if he would be interested in returning to run the new press. That means the training required will be extremely limited and in a very short period of time the $4.6 million press will be operational and running at capacity. As I say the capacity of it is three times per unit or production per hour than that on the Komori that Mr Dessmann operates.

PN87

To go back to the minutes show, half way down at page 2, Mr Yenn refers "again apart from this new operator we do not require any more operators on any machines. The decision was made this morning that we have to close down the music division". Mr Currie advises Max and Brian should have been made an offer to run the carton division presses. Mr Yenn raised the point that Brian was given four weeks training on the Favorit/6 with the operator and one week with the print and pack demonstrate. He did not work up to the standards that were required. John has reports to show the amount of work that was done and thought it would be better for Brian not to go into detail in the meeting. Our figures show that if you take into account the made ready times and the actual production the difference between the output of the printer on the machine was almost double that of Mr Percy in approximately an hour's less make-up time per job. As to the training period not being long enough, on a commercial basis on a six month's training on a machine, is in our submission not a viable alternative when you already have an operator capable of doing it.

PN88

There were issues raised with Mr Dessmann about his performance and why he wasn't offered work or training. Points were made regarding his attendance at work and in particular his punctuality. On the 20th of the 6th 1999 he was given a written warning for smoking on the premises and it is a non smoking area and it uses solvents and I know from personal experience what can happen when those solvents are ignited in that I had to defend the company in another matter. On 19th of the 4th 2000 he was given another written warning for smoking on the premises. On the 15th of the 2nd '01 he was advised and counselled for failing to start work at 7 am, constant wandering around the factory, failure to co-operate with night shift, leaving cigarette butts near the front door, stubbing out cigarettes on the company's property on the wall, bringing visitors into the factory without registering them at reception, which given that he is a union representative, occupational health and safety should have been of primary concern and consideration. And inconsistencies in timesheets and he was given a written warning for that.

PN89

On the 5th of the 6th '01 he was found outside the factory without good cause and was given a verbal warning, during working hours and during paid time outside the factory. On the 29th of the 8th '01 there was a claim of harassment by a fellow worker. Investigations showed that it had some merit and a written warning was applied. On the 26th of the 9th '01 it was found that he was deliberately filling out timesheets incorrectly and misleading, and was given a written warning. His production output too low, his failing to start work on time and constantly having to be given verbal warnings which are ignored. For the period the 5th of the 2nd 2003 Mr Dessmann failed to attend work to commence on paid time 10 times in a period of some 20 days even though he'd been given the warnings before.

PN90

There was at one point a third warning prepared for Mr Dessmann and that was last year and it was held back. The reason it was held back is because we were undergoing negotiations during enterprise bargaining issues and it was thought that this would provoke a response. In fact the company was cautious of having any view taken that it may be influencing its decisions based upon Mr Dessmann's role. In fact it did the exact opposite. Those show a system or a recurrence of many many failures to start work at paid time meaning that the employee arrives and bundies on at, say, 7.03 then proceeds to go and get changed into his work gear, has a cup of coffee, proceeds to have discussions with other employees and at some point in time further down the track decides to commence work.

PN91

The argument that he works back to complete the time we say does not recognise or is not recognised in the facilitative provisions pursuant to the award in working back time and there is no agreement for that in the time and wages records. His starting time is 7.00 o'clock. There are 180 other employees who start - 179, who start at 7.00. Mr Dessmann decides that he doesn't have to. It was for those reasons that the company, even considering, and it did consider training Mr Dessmann, came to the view that until he started to perform and conform with company requirements they were not going to participate in a one-sided bargain or outcome.

PN92

The downturn in work in the music division that has occurred, we submit, is in disputable.

PN93

It then comes down to the two primary issues we submit. One is, was there a valid reason for the redundancies and we say our friend doesn't dispute the downturn in work in music division nor do the employees in question. The process that the company used was, have we got something else available and we submit went to great lengths to take the views of the employees and to look at every facility it had for transfer in the face of having to purchase new technology to remain competitive and in the face of a massive downturn of an area of work that is unavoidable.

PN94

When the music division first came over to Wadepack, there were several other employees. They have left and not been replaced. Others have been transferred, specifically one employee was transferred to another area some time ago. The downturn isn't something that's happened in the last six months, it's been a downturn for the last three years. It's not something that the company has been able to remedy. In the last six months it has run that section at a loss in the hope that it could find some development of work or some increase in work.

PN95

It is true the company approached Summit Technologies with the potential for Summit to purchase that division lock stock and barrel and thereby the employees retain their position and work and run equipment and on skills and on the production of work that they were familiar with. Summit Technologies declined the offer and we would submit for much the same reasons that Wadepack are having problems. We submit our processes that have been used are the best that the company could put into place to the point where, if there had been an alternative that they'd missed they asked employees to assist in identifying. Even to their vest combined endeavours they couldn't come up with an alternative.

PN96

That leaves the one point that my friend raised about the enterprise bargaining agreement. Unfortunately, we don't get advice that the Commission gets when the union decides to notify a dispute. Consequently, we have the documentation from this Commission but nothing from the union. As a result I do not have a copy of the EBA with me and perhaps if my friend can let me have a look at his copy while I peruse the clauses referred to momentarily then I can address that. My friend has passed it over. Is it appropriate to return to my friend or to give me a moment or two to have a look at this?

PN97

THE COMMISSIONER: Have a look. It's the second paragraph of clause 14 I think, Mr Tamplin, that's the relevant one.

PN98

MR TAMPLIN: Thank you, Commissioner. The parties to this agreement recognise the heading of clause 14, Redundancy, and the opening words are:

PN99

The parties to this agreement recognise the serious consequence and the personal disadvantage that loss of employment can have on an individual employee ...(reads)... detrimental effect to its operations

PN100

The problem we have there is that the employees who are employed elsewhere are to the maximum number and to the maximum skill level required to operate the equipment in the face of the implementation of the new press. Rightly or wrongly, and it may not be precisely consistent with the operation of that clause, it was the company's view that the enthusiasm of the employees in the other sections to work the new equipment and new work arrangements would have resulted in no voluntary redundancy at all.

PN101

Further, the section that is closing down is limited to an individual operating area of the company and it is in its own specific location within the building area. We say it is isolated within that area as a separate operational unit. There was in that unit no necessity to call for voluntary redundancies, as there were only two positions, printer, identified, and they were the two positions that were to be made redundant.

PN102

It then goes on to say:

PN103

The company when making an employee redundant in addition to the notice prescribed by the Award will pay to the employee being made redundant for service up to and including the first four years severance pay prescribed as outlined in 4.2.5(d)(1). ...(reads)... longer service leave after 10 years of full time engagement, where the Award at the moment is set at 15.

PN104

The issue of my friend's submission appears to be that the voluntary redundancy should have been made at large to all employees of the company. There is a practical problem in that the number of printers in the company is not 180 employees - it is approximately 25, I am informed. All the rest are bindery personnel, pre-press personnel, performing other functions. The one area that is isolated not only in its operations but also in its area or position within the company - which arose as one of the suggestions being location - was the music division. Having considered all the employees there was no case for a request for voluntary redundancy.

PN105

Unless the Commission has got some other points, that you would wish me to take you to, that would finish our submissions in reply.

PN106

THE COMMISSIONER: One thing I would like to know, Mr Tamplin, is where is the dispute settlement provision of the agreement. I couldn't find one.

PN107

MR TAMPLIN: The reason for that is that the decision was in two parts. This is the first part. I have the correct copy in my office. It does include a disputes procedure, so when the associate of Commissioner Harrison made the agreement, the agreement was submitted in two parts. The first part of the agreement is what you have in front of you. The second part of the agreement, because of the lack of clarity of the disputes procedure and its reliance upon the graphic arts that were being imprecise, a second ballot was held and variations were made to the first agreement.

PN108

Those variations and this agreement were heard at the same time. Commissioner Harrison amended the original agreement, but apparently when the associate produced it, they only produced the originating first agreement. I'm sorry, even for me that sounds confusing.

PN109

THE COMMISSIONER: You don't happen to have a spare copy of the variations, do you?

PN110

MR TAMPLIN: I wasn't put on notice from the union that we were going to go through the EBA, and because I didn't get the notification from the union advising of the notification to the Commission, it would have assisted. I know that the correct one is on file, because I rang up and got it changed and it should be the originating total with the amended clauses including the disputes settlement clause in it. But there is certainly one in it, Commissioner.

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: We can perhaps deal with that later. I just wanted to know what powers it gave the Commission, that was all, but may be we can look at that later. Mr Currie, did you want to put anything in reply and maybe we should go into conference.

PN112

MR CURRIE: Yes, if I could just put a few points forward, Commissioner. My friend, Mr Tamplin, went to great lengths to explain the size and cost of this new machine - he was talking about 4.6 million and runs at three times the speed of Max's machine, twice the size, six units, blah, blah - and he kept on trying to tie Max into the new machine. I don't think it was even appropriate that someone with no skill and no training would go onto this machine.

PN113

Commissioner, there are seven machines in the place. We are not suggesting that Max goes on this particular press. What we are saying is that with the transfer of personnel from one machine to the next there will be a position available somewhere. You don't need this person to come in from outside and fill the position. They say there is nobody on site with the skills to run it and that's a furphy - it's not true. When this machine is up and running they will all be trained on this new press - the demonstrator's name is John Alcock and he is being paid to teach people the ins and outs.

PN114

The agreement itself is fairly simple, Commissioner, it's just a matter of getting ink on to paper. The only difference is the operating of the machine, with its computer key board or whatever. Any printer with a couple of years experience outside of his apprenticeship should be able to do this type of work. It's just a matter of size and scale.

PN115

He talks about sufficient staff to cover all positions in one breath and in the next breath he talks about outside printers being brought in. The two don't marry up at all. Even the gentlemen being brought in from elsewhere will be trained, he admitted that. He spoke of Brian and the problems with his make ready and running speeds, and he uses the comparison of a printer that Brian is working with at the moment. That particular person has been on the press for 10 years. In 10 years you do learn the ins and outs of a machine. You get a feel for it.

PN116

As I said before, Brian wasn't given an opportunity. Four separate offsiders. He spent half his time trying to clean them up. He wasn't given a fair go.

PN117

My friend spoke at some length on the warnings that Max had received and he spoke of various dates - 20/6/99, 19/4/2000. Again it's the same thing as we talked about before, smoking and late starts and visitors and whatever. Commissioner, Max has been with the company for 13 years. These warnings started three years ago. Max has been at those for three years. They spoke about other employees in the music section. They spoke about some leaving and talked about others in transferred on to other machines. That's all we are asking, nothing more.

PN118

He talks about voluntary redundancy and how he believes that nobody else would take it. He has tried very hard to tie it in to the printers only, but there are a number of people who work on the site and there are only 25 printers there. As I stated earlier on, Brian is capable of running a guillotine. He has run bindery equipment. He can do any number of roles in the company, Commissioner. That voluntary redundancy that has been offered, there is a chance that somebody might have taken it and there would be a position for Brian today - he wasn't given that opportunity.

PN119

That's all I have at this stage, Commissioner.

PN120

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any difficulty to going into conference, Mr Currie?

PN121

MR CURRIE: No, there is not.

PN122

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Tamplin, I am sure - - -

PN123

MR TAMPLIN: Could I just clarify a point, Commissioner. I will only take a moment of your time and then most certainly the conference. There aren't seven presses, there are four. There are two large ones and two small ones. The two small presses have only one week's work in front of them. There are no casuals employed on the site, because that's the first area we looked at.

PN124

If the Commission pleases we welcome to go into conference.

PN125

THE COMMISSIONER: We will go off the record and into conference.

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

MFI #WADEPACK1 COPY OF MINUTES OF MEETING, DATED 05/02/03 PN50
MFI #WADEPACK2 RESPONSE TO SUGGESTIONS RAISED BY EMPLOYEES, DATED 06/02/03 PN58
MFI #WADEPACK3 LETTER FROM MR YENN TO MR ASHON NASSIBIAN PN75