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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT1629
A: 27.2.03
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY
AG2001/3630
C2001/1368
APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATION
OF AGREEMENT
Application under section 170LK of the Act
by CPSU, The Community and Public Sector Union
and Another for certification of the Fulham
Correctional Officers Certified Agreement 2001
AUSTRALASIAN CORRECTIONAL
MANAGEMENT PTY LIMITED
and
CPSU, THE COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC SECTOR
UNION - SPSF GROUP, VICTORIAN BRANCH
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act of
an industrial dispute re negotiation of a new
agreement for the Fulham Correctional Centre
MELBOURNE
10.05 AM, WEDNESDAY, 12 FEBRUARY 2003
Continued from 11.02.03
PN7379
MR LAWRENCE: Your Honour, our next witness is Mr Ewer.
PN7380
PN7381
MR LAWRENCE: Mr Ewer, can you state your full name for the record, please?---Peter James Ewer.
PN7382
And your address?---Flat 1, 200 Dawson Street, Brunswick West.
PN7383
And your occupation?---I am the research director of the Community and Public Sector Union, Victoria Branch.
PN7384
Now, Mr Ewer, in terms of these proceedings, have you prepared a witness statement?---I have.
PN7385
Do you have a copy of that with you?---I do.
PN7386
I understand, Mr Ewer, that that witness statement has attached to it a curriculum vitae?---It does.
PN7387
And you have since revised that slightly?---I have.
PN7388
I hand up the revision of that curriculum vitae, your Honour.
PN7389
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN7390
MR LAWRENCE: And that curriculum vitae should go as - the revised curriculum vitae should go as an amendment to your statement, that is in replacement of the one that is currently there?---It should, yes.
PN7391
And subject to that, are the contents of your statement true and correct, Mr Ewer?---They are, yes.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7392
Your Honour, Mr Ewer's statement has not been previously marked.
PN7393
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think I have a copy of it, do I?
PN7394
MR LAWRENCE: You should, your Honour. I think it would have been filed two or three weeks before the Commission was last in session in December.
PN7395
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You don't have another copy available?
PN7396
MR LAWRENCE: Mr D'Abaco has kindly provided me with mine, your Honour, and we will have another copy run off in a moment.
PN7397
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks very much.
PN7398
PN7399
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Lawrence.
PN7400
MR LAWRENCE: Thank you, your Honour.
PN7401
Now, Mr Ewer, if I could take you to your CV for a moment?---Yes.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7402
You hold a BA honours from Macquarie University?---I have.
PN7403
And you are currently a PhD candidate at RMIT University?---I am.
PN7404
And you are currently the director of research for the Community and Public Sector Union, Victoria?---That is correct.
PN7405
And from 1994 to 2001 you were a research officer with the union research centre on organisation and technology?---Yes.
PN7406
And part of your relevant experience under that heading is that you participated in the design and implementation of the restructured Metal Industry Award?---I did, yes.
PN7407
And when did you participate in that, approximately what time period?---Over the course of 1987 to the end of 1991 firstly as a part of the research staff of the Trade Development Council Secretariat which assisted the metal industry delegation to Europe which informed the local negotiations around the career path in the Australian metal industry and then subsequently in the research centre of the then Amalgamated Metalworkers' Union in Sydney.
PN7408
Did that give rise to in part the document Australia Reconstructed?---The first part of that experience did, yes.
PN7409
And you outline under relevant experience, under the relevant dot points there the work that you undertook in relation to the implementation of that restructured award?---Yes, I did. I was primarily involved in the research activities which involved both the conduct of the AMWUs own biennial wages survey which informed the setting of the new minimum rates in the restructured award and I was also the Metal Trades Federation of Unions delegate on the tripartite steering committee with the metal industry employers and the Government on the large industry-wide survey of paid rates in the Metal Industry Award which again was used to determine the new rates in the restructured award.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7410
Perhaps you could speak up just a little bit?---Yes.
PN7411
Now, can I take you to the statements you have prepared for the purposes of these proceedings, Mr Ewer?---Yes.
PN7412
Can I take you first of all to paragraph 8.1 and can I ask you this? In terms of the methodology employed by Mr Gayton and your statement is responsive to that filed in these proceedings by Mr Gayton on behalf of ACM?---Yes.
PN7413
In terms of the methodology employed by Mr Gayton in his report, what arises, if anything, from the fact that his report does not append a points factor schedule for each of the various sub-factors referred to in that report?---I don't have Mr Gayton's statement with me? Could I have that for a moment?
PN7414
You can. Your Honour, if the witness could be shown Mr Gayton's statement, please. There was a revised statement filed, your Honour, by way of - it is a covering sheet dated 22 November 2002.
PN7415
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What was the date of the statement, the revised statement?
PN7416
MR LAWRENCE: The version that I have is a revised statement with Mercer on the top dated 22 November 2002 and it is about 30-odd pages long, your Honour.
PN7417
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I have a statement here, but I am not sure that it is the one to which you refer. In fact, it is dated 16 September.
PN7418
MR LAWRENCE: No, there was a subsequent statement filed to that, your Honour.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7419
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Again, do you have another copy of that document?
PN7420
MR DOUGLAS: I am looking for it, your Honour.
PN7421
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have it here now.
PN7422
MR LAWRENCE: Your Honour, my learned friends don't appear to have a copy of the revised statement with them at the moment. In those circumstances, it might be appropriate to - you have got that statement, Mr Ewer?---I do.
PN7423
Dated 22 November?---I do.
PN7424
And if I can take you back to my question. What arises, if anything, from the fact that the report does not append the points factor schedule for each of the various sub-factors referred to?---Well, if I could just take the Commission to page 5 of 28 of Mr Gayton's statement to begin with.
PN7425
Your Honour, it might be appropriate - Mr D'Abaco has just informed me that my learned friends don't actually have a copy of this revised document.
PN7426
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps we could arrange for copies to be made. How many do we need?
PN7427
MR LAWRENCE: Mr Douglas is content to proceed, your Honour.
PN7428
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right?---My recollection of the revised document is that it was re-paginated and very little else, so I don't think it will detain us for long.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7429
MR LAWRENCE: All right?---So if I can take the Commission to page 5 of 28 to begin with, the Mercer methodology is one of a number of proprietary job evaluation products currently in the market. They differ in detail, but conceptually they are similar to the extent that they use a hierarchy of tasks, knowledge, experience to score jobs and by that means establish an aggregate ranking which can then be used to compare with other jobs of similar ranking and thereby compare the wages of what might be quite dissimilar kinds of jobs. The Mercer system has a number of broad areas, expertise, judgment and accountability and then within each of those broad factors, there are a range of sub-factors. For example, on page 5 of 28, the expertise factor is broken down in terms of knowledge and experience, interpersonal skills. Within each of those sub-factors, there is a hierarchy, a descriptive hierarchy which is used to effective code jobs, rank them with a score and by doing that across the other range of factors, the aggregate scores which are provided on page 4 of 28 are compiled. The difficulty with Mr Gayton's statement as it stands is that the whole hierarchy of descriptive standards which make up the sub-factors and then the factors is not appended to his statement, so the accuracy of the selection of each sub-factor and therefore the score that attaches with it, it is not possible to establish whether or not the appropriate sub-factor score has been selected without the appending of that full hierarchy of descriptive standards.
PN7430
So it is not possible to test whether the right conclusions have been drawn on the basis of the relevant sub-factors?---It is not possible to establish whether or not the correct selection of sub-factors, the descriptive standards, has been selected for the particular area of work which is being analysed, so that, for example, on page 5 of 28 under knowledge and experience, that sub-factor is scored on a ranking of - I can't quite recall, but let us say for the sake of the argument there is a ranking of A to F, the A to F schedule will have an increasing number of points the further up that hierarchy you go and each of the points A to F will have a descriptive standard which describes in a hierarchy the knowledge and experience which is being examined, so that unless we have the full descriptive standards A to F, it is not possible to know whether the correct ranking here which in this case is C plus has been selected.
PN7431
As to whether the correct ranking should have been C or B or even D, for example?---That is right.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7432
Now, can I take you to paragraph 8.1?---Yes.
PN7433
And you say there:
PN7434
The points schedule used by CED describes jobs in terms of a private sector competitive firm (for example, the points hierarchy in the breadth sub-factor of expertise ranks jobs in terms of commercial revenue.
PN7435
?---Yes.
PN7436
And you say:
PN7437
In my opinion, this orientation towards business revenues marginalises jobs involving regulatory and procedural requirements such as those relevant to prison officers.
PN7438
Do you see that?---I do.
PN7439
In your experience, why does this orientation marginalised those sorts of jobs, Mr Ewer?---Well, as I describe in my statement, to take the example of the breadth factor which again is at page 5 of 28 of Mr Gayton's statement, the breadth factor, the highest possible points which are achievable in that sub-factor are explicitly, if we were to have the full schedule, are explicitly couched in terms of the size of budgets and revenues that the job holder is responsible for. Now, in my opinion, that privileges the profit-making private sector firm over public sector workers in general and obviously the particular custodial obligations of prison officers don't figure in a methodology where the highest possible points attach to those with profit-making responsibilities.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7440
So it is skewed towards the profit-making end, you say?---In my opinion, the Mercer system, like most job evaluation methodologies, is designed around a particular organisational model and that is the private sector profit-making firm and by privileging the functions of workers in those firms in terms of profits and revenue responsibilities and ranking those highly, the kinds of work which public sector workers do which may involve a range of statutory enforcement activities, but which don't necessarily have a revenue dimension are unnecessarily and unfavourably ranked in the job evaluation schemes.
PN7441
Thank you. Can I take you to paragraph 8.1.1?---Yes.
PN7442
You there talk about the fact that the CED job evaluation methodology uses for its empirical material a review of position documentation, i.e. position descriptions, interviews with job holders and that is reflected in Mr Gayton's statement on page 2 as you indicate?---Yes.
PN7443
You there state:
PN7444
In my experience, where the accounts from interview about the job contents conflicts with those specified in the position description statement, the account contained in the position description prevails for the purposes of scoring.
PN7445
?---Yes.
PN7446
And:
PN7447
The practice assumes that position descriptions are current, accurate and agreed between the parties.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7448
Do you see that?---I do, yes.
PN7449
Now, what difficulties arise, if any, if your experience in terms of the methodology employed by Mr Gayton when position descriptions that are relied upon have not been agreed between the employees concerned and/or their union and the relevant employer?---Well, the reliance on a paper description of the job and that is effectively what, of course, a position description is assumes that the PD accurately reflects the nature of work and so if the position description is a key part of the data for a job evaluation score, if the position description is out of date or does not accurately reflect the nature of work, then the scores which are achieved through the job evaluation system won't reflect the actual nature of the job under investigation and therefore the whole reliability of the job evaluation scheme is thrown into doubt because the position description may not accurately reflect the content of the job.
PN7450
And what difficulties arise, if any, in circumstances where position descriptors are framed very broadly?---Well, the difficulty will be that the particular responsibilities and the actual job worth of a particular job will not be accurately described in a position description which does not in some detail specify the exact nature of the work and therefore again it is possible that the application of the job evaluation methodology will be in error because the primary data source for the evaluation, that is to say the position description, does not accurately reflect the nature of the job.
PN7451
Your Honour, could the witness be shown exhibits ACM8 and ACM9, please?---Yes.
PN7452
Mr Ewer, these are the Australian Correctional Management position description and selection criteria for the positions of correctional officer and correctional supervisor at the Fulham Correctional Centre. Can I take you firstly to exhibit ACM9 and you see there under the heading duties a range of duties listed?---This is ACM9?
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7453
ACM9, yes?---Yes.
PN7454
Position of correctional officer?---Yes.
PN7455
And in light of those comments you have just made in terms of the way in which the position description statement is framed in broad terms, do you have any comments to make in relation to the duties that there appear under the heading of duties in that statement?---If I could just take a moment, please?
PN7456
If we go to the first duty at 1.1?---Yes:
PN7457
Supervise the behaviour and activities of prisoners on a day to day basis in accordance with the centre's routine or structured day.
PN7458
That tells me very little, other than the fact that a prison is the workplace. There is no indication in that statement as to what the day to day functions of a custodial officer would be. If I could then take you to - - -
PN7459
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, just before you go on, isn't it implicit in that that the custodial officer will have a degree of discretion?---It may be.
PN7460
And to what extent is the amount of discretion in the exercise of functions or duties reflected of levels of - - -?---I mean, it is a very germane point to the purposes of job evaluation because discretion, that is to say the autonomy that a job holder exercises in the course of their work scores a higher points factor in the ranking of the job, so if the position description does not explicitly say that the position involves the exercise of discretion, then there is nothing in the primary documentary material for the purposes of job evaluation to have the job ranked higher, so your Honour is correct to say that it may be implicit, but for the purposes of job evaluation, unless it is explicit, then the job will not be ranked as it might be.
[10.29am]
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7461
MR LAWRENCE: What about 1.2, Mr Ewer?---The key phrase which is of sufficient breadth as to cause - or comes to my notice is the phrase relevant legislation. Presumably that relevant legislation may provide the enforcement powers of a custodial officer in the exercise of their work and so the I think greater precision about what that relevant legislation is and therefore the duties and responsibilities that attach to that would be required for the position description to accurately reflect what is actually undertaken.
PN7462
Could that include, for example, the breadth of knowledge of the legislation that one is required to have?---It would both involve the breadth of legislation in terms of the number of Acts, but also presumably the depth of understanding about each particular Act would be of relevance and the obligations, the duty of care that may be required in the exercise of their work would need to be specified more closely for the purposes of job evaluation.
PN7463
And what about 1.3?---Well, I think it is fair to say that we would all assume that custodial officers would be involved in the rehabilitation of prisoners, but the issue for me in that phrase is the phrase over-sighting their work and program activities. That presumably could mean everything from basket weaving to assisting a prisoner undertaking degree studies by correspondence and therefore the functional skills to be exercised by a custodial officer in over-sighting their work and program activities would have a very wide range, including perhaps principles of adult education and the like which again, if they are not explicitly recorded in the position description for the purposes of job evaluation, would not fully capture the kinds of vocational skills which the custodial officer would exercise.
PN7464
And 1.4?---For the purposes of job evaluation, the key issue I think would be the level of administrative responsibility that the officer had for defining what unusual behaviour or occurrence might be and again for the purposes of job evaluation, the issue is the responsibility that the custodial officer would be held accountable for within the organisation and also obviously the skill to define in presumably complex and stressful environments what precisely usual behaviour was and again that raises questions about the kinds of skills that the custodial officer would need to do that and which with that broad statement would not figure prominently in a job evaluation ranking.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7465
And would those same comments apply to 1.5, 1.6 and 1.7?---Well, 1.7 would be a fairly standard description of supervisory responsibilities, although for job evaluation purposes, the scale of the supervisory responsibility, that is to say the number of people who are being supervised figures as a element of important and so the custodial officer may supervise other custodial staff and we might expect that, but the actual scale of that responsibility should more precisely be defined there. 1.6:
PN7466
Participate in the reception, induction, transfer and discharge of prisoners.
PN7467
The soft phrase in job evaluations schemes, soft verbs like participate score lowly and stronger verbs like manage, take responsibility for score more highly, so if the custodial officer genuinely does participate in a team or a group of people, then that phrase may be appropriate. If, however, the custodial officer is responsible for the reception, induction, transfer and discharge, then that would be ranked more highly in a job evaluation scheme and should there be - - -
PN7468
Attract a higher point scoring?---Yes, it would attract a higher points factor and therefore the way that the position description is even phrased in terms of the choice of verbs is pivotally important to the score that comes out of the job evaluation methodology.
PN7469
And 1.5?---Well, again, the question arises as to the responsibility and autonomy of that function as to how it would rank in the job factor score, so is the custodial officer responsible for defining situations when searches are required or not? Is the custodial officer, when escorting prisoners external to the centre, responsible for the safe and secure arrival of the prisoners or are they part of a team? The position description does not tell me in those words the degree of responsibility, autonomy and accountability that is exercised by the officer.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7470
And if you look over to 1.8, 1.9 and the catch-all at 1.10?---Well, 1.9 I think is perhaps particularly - no, I withdraw that. I apologise. If I could take you to 1.8, again that is a matter of policy which the company is free to determine. Participate in quality assurance teams as assigned by management. Again, the question of participate, is it leading a quality assurance team or not? Again, it is the choice of verbs which are at issue in a job evaluation scheme, but I have little to add on 1.8, 1.9, 1.10. 1.10 is a standard catch-all phrase of position description.
PN7471
And what about if we look briefly at ACM8 which is the position description for the correctional supervisor position?---Well, I take it the way that this position description is compiled is that because of the number of the duties under 1 are exactly the same or equivalent to those specified in ACM9 for the correctional officer that the correctional supervisor has to undertake the duties of a correctional officer and then some more, as it were, so my comments in relation to the construction of 1.1 in ACM8, 1.2 in ACM8 and 1.4 in ACM8 are the same comments that I would make, that I have made in relation to ACM9, that is to say that the level of precision and detail in the position description would require further specification for it to be an accurate reflection of the work for job evaluation purposes. In relation to 1.8, again for the purposes of job evaluation, the choice of verbs is critically important:
PN7472
Ensure prompt and appropriate assistance to prisoners.
PN7473
Just the simple selection of the term ensure, rather than be accountable for, may contribute to a lower ranking than would be otherwise the case. 1.10 is phrased in a particularly weak way:
PN7474
Monitor and suggest improvements -
PN7475
for job evaluation purposes would rank very lowly because the person is not responsible for the actual implementation and have the autonomy to implement those improvements, whereas other parts of the position description might imply that the correctional supervisor should take the initiative and actually implement that suggested improvement. If I can go on to 2.4 under key selection criteria:
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7476
Ability to be decisive and handle situations in a firm, fair and equitable manner.
PN7477
I mean, that is so loosely defined as to be in contradiction to I would have thought 1.10 which says monitor and suggest improvements, whereas the selection criteria requires somebody to be decisive, so it seems to me that the duties specified and the skills defined in 2 contradict each other.
PN7478
If you look at 1.3 and the words be involved with?---Well, again it is a particularly weak description of the work which might involve I imagine being responsible for in a realistic way the management of case loads, but obviously whether that is the case or not would require extensive field research to establish and so the reliance on a job evaluation - on the position description as the principal data for the job evaluation may not be reliable.
PN7479
Thank you, Mr Ewer. Can I take you to paragraph 8.2?---I beg our pardon?
PN7480
Paragraph 8.2 of your statement.
PN7481
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have you finished with the position descriptions?
PN7482
MR LAWRENCE: I have, your Honour, yes.
PN7483
And at line 5 you make reference to the exact temporal quality of the claim in respect of the triangulation of data in Mr Gayton's statement. Do you see that?---We may have our statements paginated differently. You are at 8.2?
PN7484
8.1.2 of your statement?---I beg your pardon. I thought you said 8.2?---Yes, I see that.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7485
Why in your opinion is it necessary to specify the exact temporal connection?---Well, your Honour, if I take the Commission to page 24 of 28 of Mr Gayton's statement where the phrase arises, the purpose of the job evaluation score is to compare the wage rate which attaches to the job being evaluated with scores for - I will start that again. The purpose of the score for the job that has been evaluated, the job evaluation score is then compared with what might be quite dissimilar jobs with the same score and the wage rates that attaches to those scores are the mechanism by which the accuracy of the wage rate is established, so where in Mr Gayton's statement he has indicated that the current information contained in the database extends to 100,000 individuals and so on, unless the time period for that data is established, that is to say wage rates obviously change over time, so that unless we know what period the data is held for, it is not possible to establish whether a rate defined by the job ranking on 12 February 2003 is being compared with other rates for February 2003 or possibly the data might extend back several years, so that the accuracy of the wages being compared cannot be established from Mr Gayton's statement.
PN7486
Now, at 8.3 of your statement - - -
PN7487
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 8.3?---8.1.3?
PN7488
MR LAWRENCE: No, 8.3 of your statement?---Yes.
PN7489
You there make reference to the fact that Mr Gayton's statement indicates that the private sector custodial job scores have been compared to the C10 Metal Industry Award rate. Do you see that?---That is correct.
PN7490
Now, in your experience, Mr Ewer, in a study such as this, is it appropriate to look only at the award rate as opposed to what may be the average rate in the field, for example?---Your Honour, if I could take the Commission to Mr Gayton's statement at page 3 and page 4, on page 3 of Mr Gayton's statement, the second last dot point in the middle of the page, Mr Gayton states that:
**** PETER JAMES EWER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7491
The work has reviewed the C10 classification definitions and researched a range of trade work profiles developed by Mercer to identify an appropriate profile for that level.
PN7492
And then in the schedule attached at page 4 of Mr Gayton's statement, we can see at the bottom of the table the C10 rate has attracted a points score of 157. The description of the methodology at page 3 of Mr Gayton's statement in relation to the Metal Industry Award is in my opinion very weak because it glides over a whole range of methodological issues which I think it is fair to say have bedevilled Australian industrial researchers and practitioners over many years. The C10 classification definitions are, of course, definitions attached to a minimum rates award and that seems to have somehow been rolled together with what I take to be in the second half of Mr Gayton's statement a range of trade work value profiles. The award definitions seem to have been rolled together with rankings of work which has actually been performed in industry. Now, how the award definition and what I take to be the actual nature of the work performed in industry have been run together, as it were, and how any potential contradictions between the award definitions and the actual work performed in industry have been reconciled within the methodology simply have not been stated in Mr Gayton's statement so therefore in my opinion, the ranking which has been scored on page 4 in relation to the C10 rate does not adequately explain the relationship between a minimum rates award and the paid rates in the industry which would be paid much higher than the actual award rate.
PN7493
Thank you, Mr Ewer, at 8.1.6 you make reference there to a decision of the Industrial Relations Commission of New South Wales?---I do.
PN7494
PN7495
MR DOUGLAS: On that tripartite exercise overseas, when was that, '87 thereabouts?---Yes, it was.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7496
How did you get on that?---I was not as you say on it. I was part of the research staff which compiled the briefing material which was provided to the tripartite delegations which constituted the mission and then upon the mission's return, I assisted with the research and drafting of the mission's report towards a new metal and engineering industry award which informed the parties in the negotiation of the new award.
PN7497
Okay, well, we will get along well and save a lot of time if you just answer the questions that I put to you. Did you go overseas on that mission?---No, I did not.
PN7498
Did you go overseas with that mission?---No, I did not.
PN7499
What research body were you part of with respect to that mission?---I was a member of the Trade Development Council Secretariat staff which supported the mission in its work.
PN7500
Was that a body put together by the Government?---It was.
PN7501
The Commonwealth Government?---It was, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
PN7502
At Government's initiative or at somebody's request?---As you would recall, in the late '80s there was - - -
PN7503
Just answer the question. Somebody's initiative or - Government initiative or somebody's request? If you don't know - - -?---My recollection would be that it was a meeting of minds.
PN7504
A meeting of minds? Government minds? Trade union minds? Employer minds? What sort of minds?---The Government and the metal industry employers and the Metal Trades Federation of Unions agreed to participate jointly in the mission.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7505
And out of that exercise, the employers and the unions, what, agreed on a new structure for the Metal Industry Award, classification structure?---Not arising from the report per se. The report provided a range of conceptual ideas for the consideration of the parties in the development of the new career path in the Metal Industry Award.
PN7506
But subsequent to the mission and with a great deal of other input, the classification structure of the Metal Industry Award was modified by agreement between the employers and the unions?---Correct.
PN7507
With assistance of this Commission?---Correct, Deputy President Keogh, as I recall.
PN7508
Where did the mission go to overseas?---The mission visited metal and engineering firms in the United Kingdom, Sweden and Germany and obviously had extensive briefings from Government, industry and unions in those countries.
PN7509
And did it look at the use being made of job evaluation techniques say in Germany at the time?---No, it did not.
PN7510
Did it look at the use being made of job evaluation techniques anywhere overseas at the time?---No, it did not.
PN7511
It wasn't part of its role?---No.
PN7512
Are you familiar with the classification structure in the Metal Industry Award?---Broadly.
PN7513
Did you have anything to do with the putting together of the definitions, the job descriptions in that award for the various classifications?---I did. I helped to formulate and draft the AMWUs draft standards for negotiation.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7514
Did that involve you in drafting job descriptions?---Position descriptions?
PN7515
Yes?---No.
PN7516
Position definitions?---No.
PN7517
What sort of drafting were you involved in?---Drafting the award standards.
PN7518
Being what? Education standards?---Being the indicative standards for classification of jobs according to the classification structure in the Metal Industry Award.
PN7519
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Excuse me. Could I just ask you to speak up, or when you do speak, turn your head towards me? I can't quite hear what you are saying?---Certainly.
PN7520
MR DOUGLAS: I don't understand what you mean by indicative standard. Is the indicative standard for the C10 - well, does an indicative standard exist for the C10 classification?---Yes, it does.
PN7521
And what is it?---The classification standards in the Metal Industry Award have a narrative description of the work that would be undertaken at that level. That narrative standard includes an educational qualification or its equivalent so that for example the C10 classification is what used to be called the trade certificate, the trade worker, so that is the indicative qualification for someone working at the C10 level and then there are a number of vocational streams within the C10 rate, for example, fabrication, mechanical, electrical, electronic and those standards describe for those kind of vocational streams the kinds of work that would be performed at the C10 trade rate.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7522
For instance, the award in relation to the C10 group and that is what I understand the C10 group to be, that it covers the whole range of what were the trade classifications that existed previously, electrical tradesmen, fitter, motor mechanic and so on?---Yes.
PN7523
Or for instance the award at the moment says as to an engineering tradesperson, level 1:
PN7524
Works above and beyond an employee at C11 and to the level of his/her skills, competence and training.
PN7525
?---Yes.
PN7526
Understands and applies quality control techniques.
PN7527
?---Yes.
PN7528
Exercises good interpersonal and communication skills.
PN7529
?---Yes.
PN7530
Exercises keyboard skills at a level higher than C11.
PN7531
?---Yes.
PN7532
And so on?---Yes.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7533
Are those the sort of things that you had a hand in drafting?---I did.
PN7534
Were you conscious about selecting soft and strong words when you did that drafting?---Yes.
PN7535
Which are the soft words or strong words in what I have read to you:
PN7536
Understands and applies quality control techniques.
PN7537
What is soft and strong there?---That is a reasonably precise description, I would think.
PN7538
Is it?---Mm.
PN7539
Is there anything soft or strong in exercises good interpersonal and communication skills?---As a task description for a minimum rates award, I think that is appropriate.
PN7540
So have you got ACM8 and 9 in front of you again?---No, I haven't.
PN7541
Could the witness have those back, please? I take it the words that you originally drafted in relation to the Metal Industry Award was subject to a great deal of change before final agreement was reached between the unions and the employers?---That is correct.
[10.59am]
PN7542
In fact, can you point to the C10 classification in the Metal Industry Award and show us at the moment where your words are?---No.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7543
Have you ever drafted a job description?---Yes, I have. In the course of my work at the union research centre on organisation and technology, I drafted position descriptions for community sector organisations that had commissioned IRCOT to assist them with their job design and work organisation arrangements.
PN7544
Is there a job description for your job at the moment?---No, there is not actually.
PN7545
Do you have people working under you?---No, I don't.
PN7546
So being a research director, you are alone performing that activity for the CPSU? Is that correct?---Yes.
PN7547
Do you have any support employees, administrative, clerical employees working in your field?---There is a range of people who I interact with in the course of my work.
PN7548
Do you know whether those employees have job descriptions, the jobs that they are in?---I believe they do.
PN7549
They do?---Mm.
PN7550
Who would have drafted those job descriptions? The union?---I imagine the executive of the union.
PN7551
What is the purpose of a job description?---In my opinion, the purpose of a job description, position description, is to accurately record and codify the work to be performed by the job holder.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7552
And they are pretty widely used, aren't they?---They are.
PN7553
In every industry, I suggest, of any significance?---Yes.
PN7554
And they are relied on from time to time by the CPSU in cases before this Commission?---Yes.
PN7555
Have you looked at ACM8 and 9 before today?---I have seen them, yes.
PN7556
Did you look at them closely and determine whether or not they had soft or non-soft words in them prior to today?---No.
PN7557
So that was something that came to you as a result of the questions that my friend put to you this morning?---It came to me having read it now, yes.
PN7558
Why do you think ACM has job descriptions for correctional officers and correctional supervisors?---Presumably to provide job holders with a statement of their responsibilities.
PN7559
Yes, and are you saying that somehow or other those job descriptions are inaccurate?---The statements which I have made are in relation to whether or not position descriptions could be reliably used for job evaluation purposes and raised the question of whether they accurately reflect the nature of the work being performed.
PN7560
But you seem to be implying in some of the answers that you gave to my learned friend with respect to, say, ACM9 this morning that somehow or other what was in paragraph 1 of ACM9 was misleading, inaccurate, wanting in some way or other. Is that the picture that you want his Honour to obtain?---The picture which I wish the Commission to consider is whether or not the formulation of the duties described in ACM9 are of sufficient precision to allow a job evaluation methodology to be applied to them and thereby achieve an accurate ranking for the purposes of scoring the job.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7561
Would you change your view at all as to ACM9 and what you have said about it if I told you that four CPSU witnesses, Mr Battley, Mr van Dyke, Mr Shorter, Mr De Moel, all correctional officers employed at Fulham, have agreed that those job descriptions are accurate, that they were taken to each of the points there, have agreed that they are accurate as to the work they perform and that they had nothing further to add to them? Would that want you to change your position?---No, it wouldn't, because my evidence has gone to the question of whether or not, for the purposes of job evaluation, the position descriptions are a satisfactory piece of data.
PN7562
So if his Honour was able to conclude on the evidence that the job descriptions are accurate and are agreed to by representative employees as being accurate, then they would be - those job descriptions would be capable of being used with respect to a job evaluation system without creating distortions, wouldn't they?---Obviously the Commission is free to decide that.
PN7563
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, I didn't hear what you said?---Obviously the Commission is free to determine whether or not, on the basis of the evidence before it, whether these position descriptions are an accurate summary of the job. My evidence went to whether or not they are phrased and how they are phrased will critically determine the outcome which results from the application of the job evaluation methodology.
PN7564
MR DOUGLAS: What if I tell you that Mr Gayton will say when he gives evidence that the job descriptions are the least reliable thing to be relied on when undertaking a job evaluation task of the kind that he conducted, that the best material to rely on is information provided by employees at interviews. That in a sense seems to be consistent with what you are saying, isn't it?---Well, what evidence Mr Gayton tenders to the Commission will be for Mr Gayton to provide. In my experience, when the tasks described in the position description conflict with the material which Mercer Cullen Egan and Dell acquire at interview, the data contained in the position description will prevail.
PN7565
Will prevail?---In my experience.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7566
That is your experience?---With Mercer Cullen Egan and Dell.
PN7567
What is your experience with the Cullen Egan Dell job evaluation methodology?---In a general research sense, I have considered Mercer Cullen Egan and Dell's work in the context of the general debate around job evaluation techniques which was part of the research material which I and a colleague provided to the New South Wales pay equity inquiry, specifically in relation to a number of vocational studies involving motor mechanics, hairdressers and workers in the abattoir industries, but more directly, last year I was involved in a prolonged industrial dispute in the Victoria Police involving the use by Victoria Police of Mercer Cullen Egan and Dell as job evaluation specialists, scoring the work of forensic scientists.
PN7568
So do I take it from that that you have never been trained in the use of that methodology?---Not that particular methodology, no.
PN7569
Have you been trained in the use of any job evaluation methodology?---Not trained, no.
PN7570
Are you familiar with, aside from Cullen Egan Dell methodology, have you had any experience with any other job evaluation methodology?---The use of the Hay points factor system in the public service has arisen in the last 12 months, yes.
PN7571
Yes, and are you critical of job evaluation techniques?---Yes, I am.
PN7572
Why?---Broadly speaking because they make assumptions about organisational behaviour which privilege the private sector firm and those who work in them. I believe they lack a historical context. That is to say if we are to take the New South Wales librarians case which is part of my statement, the job evaluation methodology in that context would simply score the jobs as they are currently conducted. The whole history of work value, however, in that matter showed
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
that when the historical decisions about valuation had been made, they had disadvantaged the women who primarily work in them. Job evaluation does not consider the historical decisions of tribunals and industrial parties over many years which contribute to the setting of wage rates, so for a range of reasons, yes, I am critical of job evaluation.
PN7573
Do you know what it was that Mr Gayton was asked to do by ACM?---Only what I see from his statement.
PN7574
And from what you have said, you read into that statement that he was somehow or other asked to compare wage rates. Is that correct?---He has been asked to compare work value. The purpose of a job evaluation system, the ranking as he himself points out in his statement about the triangulation of data, the purpose of ranking the work value is to set wages.
PN7575
Yes, but he wasn't asked to do anything with respect to wage rates, was he?---From his statement, no.
PN7576
And do you know what this case is about, this proceeding?---Broadly.
PN7577
Yes, what is it?---It is about the setting of wage rates in the - - -
PN7578
Yes, who is going to set the wage rates?---The Commission.
PN7579
The Commission. Mr Gayton, is he going to set them?---Not autonomously, no.
PN7580
He was only asked to make work value examinations of a number of ACM classifications and rank those classifications by reference to C10. That is what he was asked to do, correct?---From his statement, that would be correct, yes.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7581
Well, why do you talk about the setting of wage rates, if what was required of him had nothing to do with wage rates?---If I answer that question in relation to C10, the issue about the relationship between the work value scores and the wage rates does arise in the context of Mr Gayton's consideration of the C10 work value. He has rolled together minimum rate award definitions with industry scores which are paid rates, so implicitly, the issue of the relationship between the work value scores and wage rates is embedded in Mr Gayton's statement.
PN7582
But where is it in the Cullen Egan Dell job evaluation methodology that scores are based on wages that are actually paid? Scores are not based on wages at all, are they?---The job is ranked to produce the score and then had we had the full methodology, as for example I was privy to in the forensic science matter that I referred to, the scores are then compared to wage rates and the client is therefore advised where they fit, as Mr Gayton himself says in relation to - if I take you to page 24 of 28 - - -
PN7583
But there are two discrete steps, aren't there, Mr Ewer? You conduct the work value exercise, the job evaluation exercise to get the ranking, right?---Yes.
PN7584
And then if need be, you look at actual or minimum wage rate evidence that you have for similar jobs to set either a minimum or an actual wage rate for a particular classification?---That is right. As Mr Gayton says at 24 of 28, the purpose of the methodology is to provide pay lines to clients.
PN7585
But he was never asked to do that, was he, and didn't attempt to do that here?---For ACM?
PN7586
Yes?---No.
PN7587
You are aware that in the Metal Industry Award, that the C10 is regarded as the key classification?---That is right.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7588
It is given a relativity of 100 per cent?---That is correct.
PN7589
And other classifications are given relativities around that?---That is correct.
PN7590
For instance, the C8 is 110?---That is correct.
PN7591
And so on?---Yes.
PN7592
And that is set out in the award?---Yes.
PN7593
If you are employed as a C8, engineering technician or as a C10, an engineering tradesperson, you are such an employee regardless of the rate that you are getting. You are a C10 or a C8 regardless of your minimum rate or regardless of your actual rate, aren't you? You are classified by reference to the indices, the definitions in that award and no other. Is that right?---No, that is not correct. If you were covered by a certified agreement of the Commission, you would be classified according to the provisions of the certified agreement, not according to the award, because it is a minimum rates award.
PN7594
Yes, but you would no longer be a C10, would you, if you are classified differently?---The phrase C10 may well be used in industry in a certified agreement, may well be.
PN7595
Well, if you are classified as a C10 in a certified agreement, it would be by reference to the C10 in the award, wouldn't it?---Not necessarily. The nomenclature becomes the jargon of industry. People use the C10 reference all the time and it may well be contained in a certified agreement and attach a different rate, because it is a paid rates instrument, may attract a different rate to the minimum rates definition which is contained in the award.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7596
All right. Well, what about a situation where we know for certain that the person's classification and what they do doesn't change when you look at their - as between their minimum rate and their actual rate, that when you look at them in relation to their minimum rate, they are doing X range of activities and they are a C10; when you look at their actual rate, they are doing the same range of duties and they are still a C10. Isn't that the position here?---I am not of the analogy.
PN7597
That the correctional officers here at Fulham in the certified agreement are correctional officers regardless of what they are being paid?---Their terms and conditions will be governed by the certified agreement to which they are a party, yes. I am genuinely lost with the analogy that you are trying to draw.
PN7598
Do you know how those percentage relativities came about in the Metal Industry Award?---They came about by the usual hurley-burley of industrial negotiation and principally the survey material which I refer to in my statement was used to calculate the cost impact of setting those relativities.
PN7599
So the C8 for instance ended up at 110 per cent simply as a result of the negotiation? No scientific techniques were used to arrive at that result?---No, not at all. The parties were informed by the type of survey material which I have referred to in my statement. On the part of the Metal Trades Federation of Unions, the negotiating position was deeply informed by our own survey of shop stewards and in a wider context, the parties, the Metal Trades Federation, the then Chamber of Manufactures and the then Metal Trades Industry Association co-operated in an industry wide survey of paid rates and classifications, so that the new rates proposed and the new relativities proposed for the new Metal Industry Award could be compared to the actual rates being paid in industry and therefore the cost import of the new relativities could be assessed by the parties.
PN7600
So the C10 and the C8, for instance, were set by reference to the rates actually paid in the field?---Yes.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7601
Not their minimum rates? Not minimum rates?---No.
PN7602
Are you familiar with the structure in prisons - what experience have you had in relation to prisons?---None.
PN7603
None?---No.
PN7604
Do you have any knowledge of the job descriptions that exist in the public prison sector in Victoria?---No, I don't, no.
PN7605
Do you know how the classifications in that sector were set?---I do broadly. The rates for custodial officers are contained in the - - -
PN7606
I am not talking rates, I am talking classifications. I am asking you how the classifications were set?---No.
PN7607
You have no idea?---Only by industrial agreement.
PN7608
Would it surprise you to know that Cullen Egan Dell job evaluation techniques were the sole thing used in setting a classification structure?---No, I wouldn't.
PN7609
You are not aware of that?---No, I am not, but I think you asked me whether I would be surprised and, no, I wouldn't be surprised.
PN7610
You wouldn't be surprised?---No.
PN7611
Why wouldn't you be surprised?---Because the use of job evaluation systems has, as Mr Gayton says in his statement, been extensive in the public sector.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7612
Yes, and would you be surprised to know that the Commission, this Commission at Full Bench level, accepted the structure being set on that basis?---No, that wouldn't surprise me, no. I take it the parties came before the Commission and certified an agreement.
PN7613
Would it surprise you to know that a Full Bench of this Commission accepted that the C10 classification fell within the range of 100 to 159 CED points?---No.
PN7614
The comment you make about employees who are employed by companies that are involved in profit-making would end up with a higher score than employees in the public sector?---Yes.
PN7615
Does it follow from that that a Cullen Egan Dell job evaluation survey of employees employed by ACM at Fulham would end up with a higher job evaluation score than that of employees employed in a public prison in Victoria?---I am sorry, could you ask the question again?
PN7616
Well, ACM operates the Fulham Prison, hopefully to obtain a profit. Do you agree with that?---Yes.
PN7617
That a public prison, there is no such profit motive?---No.
PN7618
And what you are saying is that a job evaluation exercise carried out at Fulham and say at the Loddon Prison here in Victoria, which is run by the State and not a private sector employer, would result in Fulham employees getting a higher job evaluation score than employees at Loddon?---No, the point that I was drawing is that custodial work would not be scored highly in a job evaluation system in general and the Mercer one in particular, because the sub-factors weight more highly those with responsibilities for organisational revenues.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7619
Yes, and aren't the employees of ACM at Fulham involved in the making of revenue for ACM, generation of revenue?---They are not responsible for the generation of the revenue. They are responsible for their custodial work, I would have thought.
PN7620
I see, and a clerical employee working for Telstra, that person is responsible for the generation of revenue for Telstra. Is that right?---Yes.
PN7621
But not a correctional supervisor at Fulham, that person is not in any way responsible for the generation of revenue for ACM?---They are part of the commercial operation of the prison, but in their work, they are not responsible for revenue generation and it is the revenue generation in the job system which is privileged.
PN7622
Well, how is it that a clerical employee at Telstra is responsible for the generation of revenue of Telstra?---Well, because they might be selling telecommunications products.
PN7623
But what if they are not?---Well, then they wouldn't be.
PN7624
Wouldn't be? So that person would get a lower score in Telstra than the person that somehow or other is involved with the generation of revenue?---Possibly.
PN7625
Possibly? Well, do you know?---In my opinion, the job evaluation system privileges an organisational model based on the private sector profit making firm and the kinds of regulatory enforcement activities which are traditionally performed in the public sector are in my opinion under-valued.
PN7626
What about information technology activities that are performed both in the public and private sector as a support service to an operation, be it profit-making or Government?---They may well be ranked equivalently.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7627
But do you know?---Well, unless we had a particular context, it is all speculative, I would have thought.
PN7628
The criticism in your paragraph 8.1 as to where you talk about not knowing the points for sub-factors, you understand that sub-factors have points?---Indeed, yes. Mr Gayton's statement makes that clear.
PN7629
Where does he make that clear?---I am not sure whether we are at cross-purposes, but to go back to Mr Gayton's statement, page 5 of 28, to take the example of knowledge and experience, C plus to C minus under expertise gives a points factor of 58 and then the points factor for expertise, judgment and accountability is aggregated to provide the points factor of 141 for a correctional officer 2.
PN7630
Yes, and what do you take from that? That each of the sub-factors have points allocated to them?---Yes.
PN7631
And if I told you that that is not so, would that change your position?---Well, I would contest the point, yes.
PN7632
Would you?---Yes.
PN7633
My instructions are that the sub-factors do not have points. Individual sub-factors do not attract points in the Cullen Egan Dell system?---There may be an issue about terminology between us. Cullen Egan and Dell, like all of the points factor job evaluation schemes, has a points schedule, that the descriptive standards contained in the sub-factors relates to and those are added together to get the points factor. Now, whether or not the MCED schedule is called sub-factors or something else, the primary purpose is undeniable.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7634
So you are saying that because you don't know what the points are for the sub-factors, then the end result must be wrong?---No, what I am saying is that because the descriptive standards for the whole sub-factor hierarchy had not been provided, we cannot establish whether the work of custodial officers has been accurately ranked in the descriptive standards within each of the sub-factors and therefore we don't know whether the correct points have been attached to the work because the whole of the methodology is not attached to Mr Gayton's statement.
[11.29am]
PN7635
What would you need to know to be satisfied that the ranking is correct?---The whole of the MCED methodology needs to be provided and then it becomes a question as to whether or not the empirical data gathered by MCED has been correctly coded against that methodology.
PN7636
Mr Gayton was not asked to rank any ACM classification by reference to any public sector classification, was he?---As I comprehend his list on page 4 of 28, no.
PN7637
Why then are the comments that you make about the public sector relevant to his evidence? You make a number of comments about job evaluation in the public sector?---Yes.
PN7638
You say that people in the private sector would be advantaged with higher point scores because of the profit factor?---Yes.
PN7639
You say that job evaluation is widely used in the public sector and I presume you are saying from that that employees widely in the public sector get low point scores?---Yes.
PN7640
But Mr Gayton doesn't make any such comparison, does he?---No.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7641
We don't know how he - - -?---Wrongly in my opinion.
PN7642
Wrongly what?---Well, his choice of comparators is not satisfactory, precisely because he hasn't compared a public sector - - -
PN7643
Why? But he was not asked to, was he?---No, no, which is indeed germane to the use of job evaluation because he who pays the piper calls the tune. Exactly right.
PN7644
But if the ranking of prison officer classifications according to the Cullen Egan Dell methodology is on record and accepted by the Commission, that is all we need to know. He doesn't have to do it again, does he?---Why would he not need to do it again?
PN7645
Because it is already on the record as being - - -?---At what point of time?
PN7646
It was when the existing structure in the Victorian public service, including in prisons, was established some four or five years ago?---Indeed, four or five years ago.
PN7647
So it must be wrong now because of that?---It may well be wrong. It is also true to say that the parties in the Victorian public sector have agreed to abandon the points factor system in the construction of a new classification structure which is currently being negotiated.
PN7648
But that hasn't yet occurred, has it?---No, it hasn't.
PN7649
No, and there are many methods by which you can arrive at an appropriate classification structure?---There are.
**** PETER JAMES EWER XXN MR DOUGLAS
PN7650
Thank you.
PN7651
MR LAWRENCE: I have no re-examination of Mr Ewer, your Honour.
PN7652
PN7653
MR LAWRENCE: Your Honour, our next witness is Mr King and I was under the impression he would be here by now. Mr Johnston is endeavouring to locate Mr King.
PN7654
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that your final witness?
PN7655
MR LAWRENCE: It is, your Honour, yes. Your Honour, Mr King doesn't have his full statement with him, including the attachment. It might be appropriate for us to copy that and perhaps a five minute break might be in order to allow us to do that, if the Commission pleases.
PN7656
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did Mr Ewer give back Mr Gayton's statement to me? I had in fact finally found my own copy and gave it to him.
PN7657
MR DOUGLAS: I didn't see him do so, your Honour.
PN7658
MR LAWRENCE: Yes, I think he handed it to me.
PN7659
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I will stand the matter down for five minutes and my Associate will arrange to make copies of the document that you want copied.
PN7660
MR LAWRENCE: Thank you, your Honour.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.34am]
RESUMED [11.46am]
PN7661
MR LAWRENCE: Your Honour, our next witness is Raymond King.
PN7662
PN7663
MR LAWRENCE: Mr King, could you state your full name, please?---Raymond Leonard King.
PN7664
And your address?---23 Melview Drive, Werribee.
PN7665
And your occupation?---Correctional officer and acting supervisor at Port Phillip Prison.
PN7666
Mr King, have you prepared a witness statement for the purposes of these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN7667
Do you have a copy of that with you?---I do.
PN7668
I understand there are a couple of minor typographical errors at paragraphs 13 and 14 of that statement?---Yes, there is.
PN7669
And at line 4 of paragraph 13:
PN7670
Supervisors are now required to undertake audits.
PN7671
It should read:
PN7672
audits of units.
PN7673
?---That is correct.
PN7674
And at paragraph 14, the first line:
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7675
These changes and others have had a substantial impact.
PN7676
?---That is correct.
PN7677
And with those changes included, are the contents of your statement true and correct?---It is.
PN7678
Thank you. Mr King, can I first of all ask that you be shown the statement of Mr Myers in this proceedings, please? I want to take you to paragraph 5 of that statement, Mr King. At paragraph 5, Mr Myers says this:
PN7679
In part, the operating philosophy of FCC when it opened and this operating philosophy is the same today as particular to the centre. This philosophy is one of minimising the harm that imprisonment can have upon a particular prisoner during his stay.
PN7680
Do you see that?---I do.
PN7681
How would you compare that philosophy to the one in your experience that is operating at Port Phillip Prison?---In my experience, there is no difference.
PN7682
Mr Myers goes on to state:
PN7683
The prison environment can be a punitive one where prisoners do not enjoy the liberties and responsibilities which people in normal society take for granted.
PN7684
And he goes on to list:
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7685
FCC attempts to develop in its prisoners a sense of responsibility for their own lives.
PN7686
Do you see that?---I do, yes.
PN7687
And how does that compare to what the attitude is of Port Phillip Prison to its prisoners, Mr King?---Very similar, very similar. We encourage the same sense of responsibility to all prisoners.
PN7688
And there are some examples given below of the philosophy that is said to be particular to the centre, that is that there exists a prisoners' amenities fund. Do you see that?---I do.
PN7689
Is anything similar in operation at Port Phillip Prison?---Yes, we have a prisoner amenities fund which is funded by 10 per cent of whatever the prisoners spend in the canteen because to the best of my knowledge, we are not allowed to make an actual profit from prisoners as such, so the extra 10 per cent goes into a prisoner amenities fund which is used for various things. The last thing was a playground for visitors' children.
PN7690
Is that within the visitors' centre at Port Phillip?---Within the visitors' centre, yes.
PN7691
And what about sub-paragraph (b) over the page:
PN7692
FCC involves prisoners in the day to day management of the centre.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7693
?---Yes, that is very similar to what we have. As far as their doubling up, as he goes on to say, yes, we went to doubling up a couple of years ago, which we still have. It will be ongoing and in most cases, or as many cases as we can, the prisoner has an input as to who he will double up with and things like this, even to the point where we have now been given a directive that if the prisoner is a non-smoker, that we are to make the best efforts to put him with another non-smoker. The same with trying to do a similar age type of thing and, yes, so as far as practicable, they have an input into who they will share with.
PN7694
Yes, and what about in terms of involvement of prisoners in the day to day management of Port Phillip Prison?---Yes, we have - the correct terminology is a prisoner liaison representative group which they meet on a monthly basis and they have a range of issues from the sporting facilities to an input in the type of food that they have access to and a whole range of things.
PN7695
And who does that group meet with?---That meets with management.
PN7696
And that occurs on a monthly basis, you say?---To the best of my knowledge, it is on a monthly basis, yes.
PN7697
And what occurs at the unit level, if anything?---With prisoners?
PN7698
Yes?---We have, as I said, prisoner listeners who help with prisoners that may be having a hard time and would rather not approach staff. We have in some units what we call prisoner stabilisers. Again, they are to help with prisoners who have this adversity to sort of addressing staff and they also come up with a lot of ideas on how we can improve perhaps facilities within the unit, to help the prisoners. We have one particular unit where we have peer educators which are prisoners which help introduce the prisoners to the way of Port Phillip Prison and things like this, so, yes, they have a lot of self help within themselves.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7699
And at sub-paragraph (c) Mr Myers states:
PN7700
FCC takes into account prisoners' ideas and suggestions in the formulation of the recreation program for prisoners.
PN7701
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7702
And what is the position in relation to prisoner ideas and suggestions at Port Phillip Prison?---Well, yes, we do a similar thing. We have had things like four-way gym stations that were put in inside various units. We have had a running track put in outside one of the units, but they have had ideas where we have external people come in, like people from football clubs, baseball clubs, things like that, to help them in various ways, so, yes, there is quite a bit of input.
PN7703
I see, and can I take you to paragraph 6 of Mr Myers' statement where Mr Myers states, the first sentence of paragraph 6:
PN7704
And following another key concept of FCCs operating philosophy is to add value to the prisoners' experience at the centre.
PN7705
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7706
And how would you compare that operating philosophy to the operating philosophy that is in operation at Port Phillip Prison?---Well, we always try to add value to a prisoner's experience, because that helps then, helps us.
PN7707
And Mr Myers then goes on:
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7708
Part of this philosophy is to enhance prisoners' values of self worth and self esteem and to equip them with skills which may assist them once they return to mainstream society.
PN7709
Do you see that?---Yes. Again, very similar. We actually have a program which helps them with their self esteem and hopefully again helps when they return to mainstream.
PN7710
Mr Myers then goes on to talk about the educational arrangements and the provision of courses by the East Gippsland Institute of TAFE. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7711
What is the position in relation to Port Phillip in respect of the provision of educational programs, Mr King?---One of Port Phillip Prison's partners is Kangan TAFE which operates a variety of programs, basic education, computer programs, a whole range of them, anything from part-time programs to full-time education, a whole spectrum of education and programs available for them.
PN7712
And what is the outcome for the prisoners? Do they receive formal certificates at completion of courses?---Yes, they do. They get a certificate which we photocopy which goes into their file. They keep the original and that goes with them when they leave and which they can use to help sell themselves when they get outside, hopefully get a job, etcetera, but, yes, Kangan TAFE supplies the certificates.
PN7713
And further down, the third line from the bottom, Mr Myers states:
PN7714
Further, there is an intensive 15-week drug treatment program for prisoners with a history of drug dependency.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7715
What drug treatment programs, if any, are in operation at Port Phillip, Mr King?---We have a drug awareness program. We have drug rehabilitation programs which to the best of my knowledge spread over about 10 weeks. Again, they come out with certificates of completion and hopefully enhance their awareness of drugs.
PN7716
Mr Myers goes on at line 5 on page 4 at paragraph 6:
PN7717
Also, the centre has a number of training programs provided by trained counsellors and psychologists dealing with issues such as anger management and alternatives to violence.
PN7718
Do you see that?---Sorry, what page was that?
PN7719
Page 4?---Sorry.
PN7720
I am looking here five lines from the top of page 4:
PN7721
Also the centre has a number of training programs provided by trained counsellors and psychologists dealing with issues such as anger management and alternatives to violence.
PN7722
Do you see that?---I do.
PN7723
What is the position at Port Phillip Prison in relation to the provision of such programs, Mr King?---Yes, we have the same sort of thing. We have quite a few counsellors, psychologists. We have a therapeutic team dealing with again such things as anger management and the alternatives. Yes, it is very similar.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7724
And Mr Myers in that paragraph states, finally:
PN7725
The centre provides life skills programs where training sessions are held on issues such as parenting skills, meditation and financial and budgetary skills.
PN7726
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7727
And what is the position in relation to Port Phillip in respect of those life skills programs?---There is at present a parenting skill program being run. There is also meditation. I am trying to think of the other word. It is a relaxation and meditation program. We have basic mechanical skills, automotive mechanical skills, wood-working, metal work, a whole range of them which again will help them to lead a better life hopefully when they leave us.
PN7728
And at paragraph 7 Mr Myers states:
PN7729
My predecessor used the following expression to sum up the centre's philosophy: we want prisoners to leave better, not bitter.
PN7730
Do you see that?---I do.
PN7731
And how would that philosophy compare to the philosophy in place at Port Phillip Prison based on your experience?---Well, Port Phillip Prison and ever prison I would imagine wants the prisoners to leave better rather than bitter.
PN7732
Thank you, Mr King. I have finished with Mr Myers' statement for the moment. Can I take you to - could the witness be provided with a copy of the statement of Mr Senior, please?
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7733
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Could I just have the statement back, please?
PN7734
MR LAWRENCE: Do you have a copy of that statement?---I do.
PN7735
Can I take you to paragraph 31 of that statement, Mr King, on page 14? Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7736
Mr Senior there makes reference to paragraph 5 of your statement. He says:
PN7737
Both Loddon and Deer Park are unique to and operate differently than FCC. Any escorts conducted from FCC involve a very quick turn-around with prisoners being delivered to the reception area only. It ought not be an opportunity during such escorts to hold lengthy discussions with staff at other prisons.
PN7738
Do you see that?---I do.
PN7739
Do you have any response to that particular statement of Mr Senior's, Mr King?---Well, they don't come to the reception area. They come to an admissions area.
PN7740
This is at Port Phillip?---Yes, but it is not necessarily a very quick turn-around, because when the truck rolls up, there can be other trucks from other areas, from the Courts, moving prisoners from in and out of any location, so the truck has to remain outside the admissions area and the escort officers come in with their paperwork and their paperwork is given to the admissions officer and they then just have to wait until we have got everything else done before we can unload their prisoners, so there could be a quick turn-around, but there could be lengthy ones, too. It just depends on what is going on at the time, a matter of waiting their turn.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7741
And what is involved in processing the prisoners at your end in terms of reception? Is it necessary to wait until that process is finished before the escort can go back?---Yes, we have got to make sure that all the paperwork is right and that the paperwork is relevant to the prisoner, etcetera. Yes, and when all that is done, then and only then can the escort officer leave.
PN7742
And in your experience, how long might that take on average?---It can take anywhere between - anywhere up to an hour. On the very odd occasion, if it is really busy, but it is only really on an odd occasion where it might take longer than that.
PN7743
Now, in paragraph 32 Mr Senior states:
PN7744
Port Phillip Prison is a maximum security remand and reception prison that involves dealing with prisoners awaiting trial or prisoners recently sentenced awaiting classification to other locations.
PN7745
Do you see that?---I do.
PN7746
Do you have a response to that statement of Mr Senior's?---Yes. Well, most of that is correct, but we do have a number of sentenced prisoners that remain at Port Phillip Prison.
PN7747
These are longer term prisoners?---The long-term, yes.
PN7748
And then Mr Senior states:
PN7749
Due to the unpredictability of these prisoners, greater control, supervision and security is required. Movement is either strictly controlled or escorted.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7750
Do you have a response to that statement by Mr Senior?---Well, we found that regardless of their classification, every prisoner or any prisoner can be unpredictable and, yes, we have supervision and security put in place to control their movements inside the prison. That is correct. In my experience, any prisoner can be unpredictable.
PN7751
At paragraph 33, Mr Senior makes reference to Fulham and the prisoner population therein and the last two sentences states as follows:
PN7752
They are usually more settled and as such easier to manage. This is borne out in the relatively low number of incidents, including assaults, that occur at FCC.
PN7753
Do you see that?---I do.
PN7754
Do you have a response to that based on your experience, Mr King?---Well, as far as being easier to manage, I think the management of prisoners is very similar, regardless of where they are and the classification they are, but we have actually had prisoners return from Fulham to us because of either an assault or one thing and another.
PN7755
Yes, at paragraph 34, Mr Senior makes reference to the attachment to his statement which is marked AMS4 about two graphs illustrating incidents including assaults at Port Phillip Prison and Fulham between July '99 and May 2002. Do you see that?---I don't have the attachment, but I see the comment.
PN7756
And that:
PN7757
This demonstrates that there is a much higher number of assaults on staff by prisoners and assaults by prisoners on prisoners at Port Phillip. Compared with FCC, incidents of attempted suicide and self-mutilation at Port Phillip are also higher than that experienced at FCC.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7758
Do you see that?---I do, yes.
PN7759
And do you have a response in relation to what Mr Senior has to say in that paragraph?---Well, as I said, without seeing the numbers of comparisons, but, as I said, there are assaults, whether it be on staff or prisoners or themselves from my knowledge in every prison and, as I said, without the figures, I can't say whether they are more or less, but no prison is going to be without some sort of assault or self-harm.
PN7760
And what about the incidence of self-harm cases or suicides at Port Phillip? Are there any reasons or reasons why they may be higher than elsewhere?---No reasons at all, no, not at all.
PN7761
Now, in relation to - just go to 35. It is stated there:
PN7762
FCC does not have a number of the specialist units or locations which exist at Port Phillip and which may require specific skills and training by correction staff, such as the psychiatric unit, intellectually disabled unit, youth unit and self-management unit.
PN7763
Do you see that, Mr King?---I do.
PN7764
Do you have a response to that paragraph of Mr Senior's?---That is correct, we do have a specialised unit to areas, but from my discussion with people from Fulham, I am led to believe that they have separate areas or units for various people as well, which one would assume would require specific skills.
PN7765
And you say discussion with people from Fulham. What discussions are you referring to there?---Just in the general discussion, in the way it is run, the way the units are set up, what is available. I am led to believe that they have a separate drug treatment unit, they have separate units or areas for Indo-Chinese or Aboriginals, all of which require some little bit different handling to each other.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7766
And have you had occasions to have discussions with officers from Fulham?---Yes.
PN7767
In what context?---In as I said that sort of context and also as to the running of it, the staffing levels, etcetera, the security aspects of it.
PN7768
I see, all right. Thank you, Mr King. Now, can I take you to your own statement. At paragraph 12 you refer to the fact that on the second line, the daily average is between 700 and 710 prisoners. Do you see that?---Yes. At the moment I believe we are running at about 715.
PN7769
About 715?---Yes.
PN7770
And what is the profile, the security profile of prisoners at Port Phillip, Mr King?---Anything from minimum to maximum.
PN7771
Port Phillip houses minimum, medium and maximum security prisoners?---Yes. I mean, because if they are on remand, that is where they come, they come to us, so regardless of what rating they are, if they are on remand, the first step, or second step after the reception prison.
PN7772
And you mentioned that double-ups were introduced at Port Phillip about two years ago. Is that correct?---To the best of my knowledge, it was about two years ago.
PN7773
And in your experience, how did prisoners at Port Phillip Prison respond to the introduction of double-ups, Mr King?---Initially not very well at all. There was a lot of objections to it and we had a few incidents, not major incidents, but we had a few incidents because of it.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7774
And in your experience, what are the views of the prisoners in terms of the availability of a single cell as opposed to a double cell?---The availability is not great, but we have a system in place where a prisoner can put his name on a single cell allocation list and we have different criterias for them in regards to whether they are undergoing education or working and how long they have been there and try and get them into a single cell as soon as possible, if possible. The ultimate aim of most prisoners is that they want their own cell.
[12.10pm]
PN7775
Yes, and in your experience, in relation to assaults at Port Phillip, Mr King, are all assaults formally reported?---I would like to think they are. I mean, there could be the odd one that I have not been made aware of, but to the best of my knowledge, they certainly are reported.
PN7776
And what is the situation with an assault, for example, where a prisoner may say I slipped over in the shower?---Not a lot you can do if that is his explanation of it, but we still talk to him and counsel him and try and get as much information as we can, get him all the medical treatment that is required and in some cases, depending on his demeanour, whether he seems agitated, we will get either a prisoner listener, a counsellor or a psychologist, depending on how we feel the prisoner is, but we endeavour to do as much investigation as possible, even if it is a supposedly slip in the shower.
PN7777
And what is the position if the prisoner maintains the position that it was a slip in the shower?---Then that is about as much as we can do. We fill out all the appropriate paperwork, make out the report, the report is attached to his file so that we have got past documentation if he has too many slips in the shower.
PN7778
And what might the incident be reported as in that context?---Well, it would be reported as a prisoner injury due to slip in the shower as reported by the prisoner.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XN MR LAWRENCE
PN7779
Thank you, Mr King. I have nothing further.
PN7780
PN7781
MR D'ABACO: Mr King, you are currently one of the job representatives for the CPSU at Port Phillip Prison, aren't you?---Yes.
PN7782
And can I ask for how long have you been a job rep for the CPSU?---Approximately four years.
PN7783
And the prison has been operating I think on your witness statement, commenced operation in 1997, the same year that Fulham commenced?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7784
So you have been a job representative, what, since shortly after the prison opened in '97?---Yes, approximately 12 months after, yes.
PN7785
And part of your role, as I understand it, as a job representative of the union would be to liaise with your fellow employees who are members of the union, to listen to any concerns they may have about terms and conditions of their employment?---That is correct.
PN7786
And part of your role as a job delegate would then be to relay those concerns and request, as it were, onto CPSU officials such as Mr Johnston, for example?---That is correct, and, of course, the management.
PN7787
Yes, and as part of your role as a CPSU job delegate, would I be correct in saying that that would sometimes require you to attend union meetings and I mean by that two sorts of union meetings, firstly meetings with your fellow employees who are members of the union?---Yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7788
And on occasion meeting with CPSU officials such as industrial officers or organisers perhaps of the CPSU officers?---Correct.
PN7789
To be kept advised of developments within the industry and so forth?---That is correct.
PN7790
And as part of your role as a job delegate, would I be correct in saying that you are involved in setting the terms and conditions of employment for the correctional staff out at Port Phillip Prison in terms of perhaps formulating demands or having some input into what ultimately those terms and conditions may be?---Well, from the start, terms and conditions were laid down by the company when we first joined, but then as time goes on, you have your various agreements or awards fall due, then you sit down with the management and, of course, discuss various terms and conditions.
PN7791
Yes, and perhaps if we can break this up into two categories, firstly the discussions in relation to the awards. It is true, isn't it, that last year the award which applies to the Port Phillip Prison underwent what is known as an award simplification exercise and you know what that means?---Yes.
PN7792
And you were involved, were you not, in that award simplification exercise, weren't you?---I was.
PN7793
And it is true to say, isn't it, that ultimately the simplified award reflects - it wasn't an arbitrated award in that sense, was it, that it was basically an agreed award handed up by the parties to the Commission? Is that true?---Are you referring to the actual EBA now or the simplification?
PN7794
The simplified award, the 2002 award?---I beg your pardon. My involvement was with the EBA, more than the simplification of the award.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7795
Did you have any involvement in the simplification of the award?---Not to my knowledge, not the actual simplification, no.
PN7796
Are you aware whether any other of your fellow job representatives or delegates at the prison were involved in the simplification of the award?---I think that Mr Michael Link may have been involved in the simplification as far as information required from the CPSU.
PN7797
And I think Mr Link is the gentleman who appeared with you, or he did the principal appearance and I think you appeared with him when the 2001 certified agreement was certified by his Honour?---That is correct.
PN7798
So your understanding is that in respect of the simplification of the award last year, at least Mr Link as a CPSU job delegate was involved?---To my knowledge, he had a slight involvement, yes.
PN7799
And certainly it was the case that CPSU officials were also involved in the simplification of the award?---That is correct.
PN7800
And would you agree with me that in terms of whatever was agreed to by the CPSU, they would have come to any agreement representing the interests and representing the welfare of the members out at Port Phillip? Would you accept that?---Yes. The agreements are like that, yes.
PN7801
I wonder if I could ask you to have a look at this, please, Mr King? I won't ask you to read the entire document?---Thank you.
PN7802
But if I can just take you to the first page in, you will see the heading order. You see part 1, application and operation of award and you agree with me that this is the 2002 Group 4 Correction Services Award?---Yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7803
And you understand, don't you, that this is the award which applies to the Port Phillip Prison?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7804
And if you look at clause 4, you see that:
PN7805
The CPSU, including its officers and members, are parties to the award and bound by it.
PN7806
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7807
I wonder if I could ask you, please, to look at page 9 of the award and in particular clause 21, rates of pay?---Yes.
PN7808
And you will see there that the award provides that:
PN7809
The appropriate rates of pay for correctional officers and correctional supervisors at Port Phillip is the Security Employees Victoria Award 1998.
PN7810
Do you see that?---That is correct.
PN7811
I tender the document, your Honour.
PN7812
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is it necessary to tender it?
PN7813
MR D'ABACO: Perhaps not, no. It will be relied upon.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7814
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will make it part of the record.
PN7815
MR D'ABACO: Thank you, sir.
PN7816
Now, it is true, isn't it, Mr King, that before the simplified award came into existence, there was another award in place at Port Phillip, wasn't there?---The Miscellaneous Union Award are you referring to?
PN7817
Well, to give its full and correct title, the ALHMWU/CPSU Group 4 Interim Award. You are aware of that?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7818
Now, did you have any involvement in your capacity as a job delegate in the formulation of that award?---The original award, no.
PN7819
Do you have any knowledge of how that award came into existence?---No. It just came about literally from day one. As I said, I wasn't a delegate at that period of time.
PN7820
I wonder if I could ask you, please, to have a look at this document and if I can ask you to turn to the second page, clause 3. You will see that the award is binding, as you said, upon the ALHMWU?---Yes.
PN7821
It was also binding upon the CPSU?---Yes.
PN7822
And if you look at clause 2.2, the award specifically provided that the CPSU had coverage, as it were, of various employee classifications at the prison?---Correct.
PN7823
So you would agree with me that while the Miscellaneous Workers' Union had rights under this agreement, so, too, did the CPSU?---Yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7824
I wonder if I could ask you, then, please, Mr King, just to turn to clause 18 of that award and if you can have a look at clause 18.1. Clause 18.1 provides that the wage rates which were to be applied at the Port Phillip Prison were to be in accordance with the Security Employees Victoria Award 1993?---Correct.
PN7825
You agree with that?---Yes.
PN7826
And you will see the next clause which says that leave was reserved of the parties to apply to vary the wage rates. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7827
And as far as you are aware, the CPSU between 1998 and 2002 didn't take any steps to vary the wage rates contained in the award, did it?---No.
PN7828
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want to tender that document? Is that a current award? I don't think it is, is it?
PN7829
PN7830
MR D'ABACO: Your Honour, could I ask perhaps that the 2002 award just be marked for identification? It may be advantageous in the future when it comes to submissions time.
PN7831
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7832
MR D'ABACO: Now, I think you indicated a few moments ago, Mr King, that while you didn't have any direct involvement in the formulation of these awards, you did have some involvement in the reaching of the 2001 agreement. Is that correct?---That is correct.
PN7833
And as I understand the situation, you formed part of the SBU or single bargaining unit at Port Phillip in respect of the negotiation of that agreement?---That is correct.
PN7834
Now, in terms of the negotiation of that agreement, am I correct in saying that the negotiations commenced in approximately March 2001?---I don't have the exact dates, but, yes, that would be approximately about the time.
PN7835
And to put it mildly, they were fairly challenging and drawn out negotiations?---They were challenging, yes.
PN7836
Well, my understanding is that there were a number of conferences and hearings which took place here in the Industrial Relations Commission before his Honour?---That is correct.
PN7837
And some of those appearances involved conferences?---Yes.
PN7838
Informal conferences, off the record?---That is correct.
PN7839
And on other occasions, there were formal hearings as a result of Group 4 seeking what are known as section 127 orders. Do you recall those proceedings taking place?---Yes.
PN7840
And the reason those proceedings were taking place was because industrial action was actually taking place at Port Phillip in respect of the negotiation of the new agreement?---That is correct.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7841
And it doesn't get more heated in terms of negotiations when people are actually taking industrial action for an agreement, does it?---It shouldn't get more heated, no.
PN7842
Now, in terms of the occasions when it was necessary for hearings and appearances to take place here in the Commission, did you attend those hearings and conferences?---I did.
PN7843
And who else from the prison in terms of fellow CPSU job delegates attended here in the Commission with you?---Mr Michael Link, Mr Shane Lyons and Mr Cyril Fox.
PN7844
And were you also accompanied by CPSU officials from the CPSU head office in Carlton?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7845
And who accompanied you or who was there from CPSU?---Peter Johnston and Mark Perica.
PN7846
I am sorry?---Mark Perica.
PN7847
And Mr Johnston I think is an official of the State branch of the CPSU?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7848
And I think Mr Perica is a legal officer or industrial officer with the Federal branch of the union?---I am not sure whether it is Federal or the State, but, yes, he is a legal officer.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7849
Now, I have been instructed that the hearings and the conferences which took place took place over a number of consecutive or closely consecutive days, that there were conferences on 5 March, 6 March, 8 March and 15 March and I don't expect you to recall each of those days, but would you agree with me that your impression is that there were a number of appearances here in the Commission and they took place within a fairly narrow period of time?---That is correct, yes.
PN7850
And while you were here on one of those occasions, did you happen to run into your comrades from the Fulham Correctional Centre, on 8 March to be precise?---I honestly don't recall. I know there were a couple of other people from various locations.
PN7851
Do you recall on one of those days, Mr King, whether the conference before his Honour sort of commenced at one day and then went through for the entire duration of the day or did you spend some time waiting perhaps because his Honour was dealing with another matter? Do you have any recollection of that?---Yes, we had a couple of times when we had to wait for various things.
PN7852
Do you remember whether Jim Walton was around on that day?
PN7853
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you know Jim Walton?---I don't know him personally, but the name rings a bell. I think he may have been here on a particular day.
PN7854
MR D'ABACO: And I understand that your recollection isn't too clear and I don't criticise you for that at all, but it may well be that Mr Walton being another CPSU official, you wouldn't discount the possibility that you may have had a discussion with him?---It is, yes, most probable that I would have done.
PN7855
And you wouldn't discount the possibility that Mr Johnston as a fellow CPSU official may also have had a discussion with Mr Walton on the day?---He may have done, yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7856
Now, you had those initial set of conferences during that period I outlined from 5 March to 15 March, but unfortunately that wasn't the end of having to appear here in the Commission, was it?---No.
PN7857
What subsequently took place, I understand, is that there was industrial action out at the prison?---There was a proposal for industrial action.
PN7858
Was there a notice of an intention to take industrial action?---There was a notice of intention.
PN7859
That would have been prepared by one of the CPSU officials in head office, I presume?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7860
And in response to that, the prison came to the Commission seeking orders to prevent that from occurring?---That is correct.
PN7861
That took place a couple of weeks after the initial brace of conferences. Is that correct?---Time frame I am unsure of, but it took place some time after that.
PN7862
Now, at that point in time, when you came here on the second occasion, would it be fair to say that there was a certain degree of tension perhaps between the parties?---I suppose it depends on the definition of tension. I mean, obviously we wanted something and they wanted something. It depends on how you determine tension.
PN7863
What I mean is that it wasn't a friendly, amiable meeting where the parties were talking with one voice. What we are talking about is that the union and the workers had some demands and the employer was saying we are not prepared to accede to the demands and we want to stop you from taking any industrial action. Would you agree that is a fair characterisation of the situation?---Yes, that is correct.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7864
And at that point in time, the situation between the parties as I understand it was that demands had been made by the union on behalf of the members and essentially those demands had been rejected by Group 4, is that correct?---That is correct.
PN7865
The parties hadn't yet got together to start talking about drawing up an agreement, had they?---Prior to appearing here?
PN7866
Yes, prior to appearing here?---Not so much drawn up an agreement. We had met in terms of what our initial demands were, etcetera.
PN7867
Yes?---I mean, which always occurs prior to coming to the Commission.
PN7868
But what I am putting to you is that firstly you get agreement. The normal course of events is firstly the parties get agreement and once you have got agreement, you then go away and actually draw up a written document which hopefully, not always, but hopefully reflects the terms of what you actually agreed?---That is correct. To the best of my knowledge, I think we had nine draft copies.
PN7869
And those draft copies in terms of bouncing back and forth between yourselves and Group 4 management, that took place really between the period of late March, when the industrial action issue was resolved until around August which is the time when the 2001 agreement was actually submitted to the Commission for certification. Is that correct?---Yes. The exact dates I couldn't recall, but it would be about that time frame.
PN7870
Now, it is true, isn't it, that part of the agreement which was reached - well, I withdraw that. It is fair to say, isn't it, that perhaps one of the most vexatious or one of the most vexed issues between yourselves and management was, as it often is, rates of pay?---That was one of the stumbling blocks, yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7871
And the manner in which that stumbling block was ultimately overcome was to provide for some percentage wage increases during the life of the 2001 agreement?---That is correct.
PN7872
And there was also provision for what is called a work value review. Do you recall that?---Yes.
PN7873
Now, that mechanism of a work value review, that was a step introduced or suggested by the CPSU?---Yes, it would have come from the CPSU as part of our talks with them.
PN7874
And it was put by the CPSU to sort of say, well, we can't get agreement on everything, let us go as far as we can and then put this issue to one side and try to deal with it over the course of the life of the agreement. That is the way in which it was put forward, was it not?---Yes, the whole idea was that we got an agreement on, as you said, the increase in rates of pay. I suppose one of the stumbling blocks we have always had is the fact that we were under a securities award, rather than corrections award and that was one of the things we looked at, the work value as well.
PN7875
Now, in respect of this proposal, I just wanted to clarify, that proposal as it were came really near the end of the actual conclusion of the agreement. You had agreed all the easy stuff, but the not so easy stuff - - -?---Yes, I think it was the 24th and the 30th month from recollection. I believe it was to take place between the 24th and the 30th month.
PN7876
Now, what I was asking you, however, is in terms of the time when that particular part of the agreement was reached, i.e. that there would be some form of wage value review, that agreement was reached right at the very end of putting the agreement together?---In all honesty, I can't remember the exact time frame that that was brought in.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7877
It was one of the final issues that needed to be knocked on the head, wasn't it?---One of the final issues, yes.
PN7878
Now, I wonder if the witness could be shown, please, your Honour, exhibit CPSU13? The part in particular which I wish to have reference to is the 2001 Group 4 agreement.
PN7879
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You only wanted that part of it, did you?
PN7880
MR D'ABACO: Yes.
PN7881
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps I will just get that document back. So that is the core Australian workplace agreement? Is that the one?
PN7882
MR D'ABACO: This is the Group 4 Corrective Services Enterprise Agreement 2001, your Honour. Your Honour, I can hand a copy up to the witness.
PN7883
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that might be helpful.
PN7884
MR D'ABACO: Can I ask you, please, Mr King, to turn to page 17 of that document?---Yes.
PN7885
And if I could ask you to look at clause 8.8.4?---Yes.
PN7886
Read those to yourself.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7887
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, what page was that again?
PN7888
MR D'ABACO: Page 17, your Honour?---Yes.
PN7889
You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that really that clause embodies the agreement which was reached between the CPSU and Group 4 management in respect of the work value review which was to be undertaken?---Correct, and my apologies for thinking it was the 24th and 30th months.
PN7890
At the same time, before that agreement was actually put to employees, or when the agreement was put to employees, there was also a notice or a memo which went out to all employees explaining the agreement, wasn't there?---Lots of notices went to and fro. There were even draft copies. As I said, all nine draft copies were made available to the employees.
PN7891
Just if I can take you back to the clause. Do you remember roughly when that clause was actually agreed to? Do you have any recollection?---I don't, in all honesty.
PN7892
But if I was to put to you that it really came in at the end of the piece, i.e. towards the end of the negotiations that particular agreement was reached on that mechanism, you wouldn't be in a position to disagree with that, would you?---I wouldn't be in a position to agree or disagree, no.
PN7893
Do you have any recollection when discussions were held in respect of that particular part of the agreement, whether Fulham was ever mentioned by the CPSU officials with whom you were dealing?---As far as my knowledge was, it was going to be a work value exercise conducted both internally and externally against all other prisoners. It was not necessarily just one particular prison.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7894
And when that particular issue was agreed, do you recall whether it may have been shortly before the agreement was actually put to the employees for a vote?---Well, we had discussions on this clause prior to, so we could get in its right text, to approach the employees.
PN7895
What I am suggesting perhaps is that it was only just before you put the agreement out to the employees to vote upon it that you were able to ultimately get agreement with management on that mechanism, because initially management wasn't interested in a work value review, was it?---Right at the start, no, to the best of my knowledge they weren't. I mean, it all came about because of the rates that we were seeking and we couldn't get total agreement on them, so we looked at this.
PN7896
I wonder if you could have a look at this document, please, Mr King? I am showing the witness exhibit ACM4, your Honour.
PN7897
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
[12.40pm]
PN7898
MR D'ABACO: If I can ask you to turn to the second page, please, Mr King, and the heading wage adjustments and work value reviews which is probably the most important part, I think, for employees in the document? Can you have a look at the third paragraph there beneath that heading commencing:
PN7899
Two separate work value exercises -
PN7900
and read that to yourself?---Yes.
PN7901
Now, I think you agreed with me earlier that it was the CPSU which initially proposed that a wage value review be undertaken, a work value review, I am sorry?---To the best of my knowledge, it was, yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7902
And in terms of the drafting of this particular memorandum, it has Mr Kelvin Anderson's name at the bottom left-hand corner?---Correct.
PN7903
Do you know who actually drafted this particular memorandum?---I would be guessing, but as with most of them, I would say it was drafted by Mr Moran from EMA.
PN7904
Who was the representative of management during the negotiations?---Yes.
PN7905
And in terms of that particular paragraph, two separate work value exercises, it is true, isn't it, that the CPSU had advance knowledge that this particular memorandum was going to be circulated with the agreement when it was given to employees to vote upon?---I don't know whether they had advanced knowledge of this one, but we always knew that there were notices to employees because this wasn't the only one, there was many of them. We put them out from the union and Group 4 put them out from the company.
PN7906
Well, the CPSU to your knowledge never objected to the contents of that document, did it?---I don't recall whether we were shown it prior to it being circulated, to be honest with you.
PN7907
If I was to say to you that Ms Batt, the State secretary of the union, affirmed the statutory declaration where she referred to that particular document and approved its contents, you wouldn't disagree with Ms Batt, would you?---I wouldn't disagree, if there is a stat dec to that effect, no.
PN7908
If I can ask you to have a look at this document and if I can ask you, please, Mr King, to look at the third document - I am sorry, the third page of that document, clause 6.1, you will see (i)?---Yes.
PN7909
This is a statutory declaration which Ms Batt prepared which is a requirement for the agreement to be certified. You understand that, don't you?---Yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7910
And do you see there at subparagraph (i) that Ms Batt states that a copy of the agreement was given to all employees and it says:
PN7911
In addition, a newsletter was provided to employees on the same day.
PN7912
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7913
And that newsletter which she refers to is that memorandum that I showed you a few moments ago, isn't it?---Yes.
PN7914
And it is safe to say, then, that in those circumstances, his Honour is entitled to draw the inference that Ms Batt approved of what that newsletter said in terms of the agreement and the manner in which it was to operate?---Well, I don't know whether she had full knowledge of its content, because as she said, it was a newsletter was provided.
PN7915
Well, if you go on and have a look for example at page 4 of the document under clause 6.6 and 6.7, she refers to specific provisions or specific explanations given in the newsletter. Do you see that?---6.6, 14 days approval.
PN7916
Yes, and then beneath that, 6.7, the newsletter provided to employees on 28 June. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN7917
So it appears that Ms Batt has some knowledge of the newsletter, doesn't it?---She has some knowledge of it, yes.
PN7918
And you wouldn't expect a responsible union official in Ms Batt's position to make a statutory declaration unless she was fully satisfied about what she was making the declaration about, would you?---No. That is correct.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7919
I tender that document, your Honour.
PN7920
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the relevance of it?
PN7921
MR D'ABACO: The relevance of it, your Honour, will be in relation to - what we put in relation to the manner in which the work value review was to be conducted at Fulham.
PN7922
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I will mark it as an exhibit, but subject to the parties addressing me as to its weight in due course.
PN7923
PN7924
MR D'ABACO: Your Honour, I still have a fair amount of questions in relation to this particular line of cross-examination. I have just noted the time.
PN7925
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, are you suggesting we have the luncheon adjournment now?
PN7926
MR D'ABACO: Yes, your Honour.
PN7927
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will adjourn until 2.15. Will you finish then this afternoon?
PN7928
MR D'ABACO: Yes, your Honour. I would anticipate being no more than half an hour with Mr King following lunch.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7929
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will adjourn until 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.45pm]
RESUMED [2.15pm]
PN7930
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I just remind you, you are still under oath, Mr King?---Yes, your Honour.
PN7931
MR D'ABACO: Mr King, you will recall that just before the lunch break I was asking you some questions in relation to the 2001 certified agreement?---That is correct.
PN7932
And I think where we left it off was that you accepted the proposition that I put to you that when Ms Batt prepared the statutory declaration, she referred in that document to a newsletter which went out to employees?---Correct.
PN7933
That was the newsletter which I showed to you which has been marked as exhibit ACM4, I believe?---That is correct.
PN7934
I want to take you if I can, please, Mr King, to the actual hearing which resulted in the agreement being certified. You appeared at that hearing, did you not?---I did.
PN7935
And my recollection is from what you said before the lunch break was that you appeared with a fellow CPSU delegate, Mr Link?---Correct.
PN7936
And that hearing came on before his Honour on 6 September in 2001?---Correct.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7937
And it is fair to say, is it not, that when the agreement was put to the Commission for certification, it did so with the full support of the CPSU members at Port Phillip?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7938
And with the full support of the CPSU itself?---That is correct.
PN7939
If I could ask you please just to have a look at this document, Mr King. Now, this is a transcript of the hearing on 6 September when the 2001 agreement was submitted for certification. If I could ask you, please, to turn to page 4 of that document and in particular paragraph number 26 where you see Mr Link says:
PN7940
We would support the document, the agreement, and we agree to all parts of it.
PN7941
And that is an accurate reflection, is it not, of the CPSUs position?---Yes.
PN7942
And it was an accurate reflection of the position of the CPSU members out at Port Phillip?---That is correct.
PN7943
PN7944
MR D'ABACO: And you are aware, are you not, that in due course the 2001 agreement was certified by the Commission?---That is correct, yes.
PN7945
And it was the subject of a decision of the Commission which confirmed the fact that the agreement had been certified?---Yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7946
Could I ask you to have a look at this document, please, Mr King? Please excuse the fact that it appears to have been chopped off on the left and the right. Unfortunately, my computer couldn't print out the full part of it. Looking at that, would you accept that that is a copy of the decision of his Honour at the time of certifying the agreement?---Yes, it appears to be, without going through every detail, yes, I agree.
PN7947
Does your Honour wish for me to tender that document? We will rely upon it in submissions.
PN7948
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think so. It is a public record.
PN7949
MR D'ABACO: Thank you.
PN7950
Now, Mr King, I think in your witness statement you outlined the experience you have had working in the prisons industry which stretches back to 1997, I believe. Is that correct?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7951
And at the time when you commenced employment at the Port Phillip Prison, you were new to the prisons industry?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7952
So the sum total of your involvement in the prisons industry has been at Port Phillip?---Yes, that is correct, apart from a short time I worked with a gentleman that used to work at Pentridge, prior to my involvement at Port Phillip.
PN7953
But that was working in some other capacity or some other job, was it?---Yes.
PN7954
And Port Phillip is a private prison, isn't it?---That is correct.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7955
Operated by a private venture?---Yes.
PN7956
So you would agree with me that you don't have any direct experience of working in the public prison system in this State?---Of myself working in there, no.
PN7957
Now, in terms of prisoner numbers at Port Phillip, my understanding is that when Port Phillip was first commissioned, it had a maximum capacity of 600 prisoners?---It was designed to hold 600 prisoners, yes.
PN7958
And with the introduction of double-ups, that has expanded now to I think the current capacity or current head count of 715 I think you testified earlier today?---Yes, that was last week, I know that figure was brought up, because we are given the figures every day.
PN7959
Now, in terms of your experience with other prisons in this State, I think you have said in your witness statement that you have visited Loddon and Deer Park?---That is correct.
PN7960
And I take it that the occasions when you have visited Loddon or Deer Park have been for the purposes of escorting prisoners from Port Phillip to those other prisons?---No, that is not correct.
PN7961
For what purpose have you visited those prisons?---I went to Loddon with Human Services when I was working with intellectually disabled prisoners and Loddon is the only other facility which houses intellectually disabled prisoners and part of our training for that unit was to visit the other location and be familiar with the surroundings so that we could help settle these prisoners because of their special needs prior to them going.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7962
And so your evidence is that to look after these particular category of prisoners, those with intellectual disabilities, required a degree of training and a degree of expertise which your average prison officer didn't have or doesn't have?---We were given extra training and information, yes. When I first went to the intellectually disabled unit, I was just trained as everybody else is in the correctional officers, but then with my involvement there, I was given more insight into intellectually disabled and dual disability prisoners.
PN7963
And when you visited Loddon, was that for the purpose of observing the prisoners and observing the manner in which the prison officers and the senior prison officers there conducted themselves in that particular environment, in the intellectually disabled unit?---It was a bit of everything, really, just to see how they were housed, so that I could take that information back to the prisoners, to see how the officers operated, as much as I could about the prison, so that I could pass that information on to some of these people who are of a delicate nature because of their disability.
PN7964
And was that a day long visit?---Yes, it was just about all day, yes.
PN7965
And that was the only occasion you visited Loddon?---At Loddon, that is correct.
PN7966
And then I think you have also testified that you visited Deer Park?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7967
And was that for the purposes of escorts?---No, that was for the purpose of having a look at a portable unit that had been put at Deer Park, because at that time Port Phillip was hoping to get a contract to have some portable units installed there by the Government.
PN7968
So sort of help alleviate the problem of double-ups and - - -?---Well, basically we wanted just to have a look at the - well, yes, that was part of the reason they were looking for that, but we went there just to have a look at the type of building that was involved and the lay-out of it and how it may or may not differ from the units that we have.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7969
And that was what, a couple of hours to visit Deer Park for that purpose?---We were probably there - no, we were there longer than that. I would say anywhere between four and six hours, to my recollection, because we had a meeting afterwards.
PN7970
That was the only occasion you visited Deer Park, for that purpose?---Visited Deer Park, yes.
PN7971
So in terms of your visits to other prisons, you have visited Loddon on one occasion and you have visited Deer Park on one occasion?---Correct.
PN7972
You haven't visited the Fulham Correctional Centre, have you?---No.
PN7973
And that being the case, you certainly haven't worked at the Fulham Correctional Centre for any period of time, have you?---That is correct.
PN7974
Would it be fair for me to say, then, that in terms of your experience as a correctional officer, acting supervisor, your approximate five and a half years, six years' experience has been exclusively confined to Port Phillip?---My working experience, yes.
PN7975
Now, Port Phillip is a maximum security prison, isn't it?---It is.
PN7976
And the reason why it is classified as a maximum security prison is because it houses prisoners who are deemed to pose the greatest risk to fellow prisoners?---I don't know whether that was the initial reasoning behind it, but it is also because of the way it was built. It was built as a high security prison which enables it to house all forms of prisoners.
PN7977
So those prisoners potentially could pose a high risk to their fellow prisoners?---Any prisoner could, as I stated before. It is not confined to just maximum security prisoners.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7978
No, but you would accept, would you not, that a prisoner who is classified as a minimum security prisoner is probably going to pose a less likely threat to their fellow prisoners than one who is rated as a maximum security prisoner?---Well, that is the general - the hope, but as I said, we have had minimum security prisoners who are just as difficult to handle.
PN7979
Yes, but the point is, is it not, that while Port Phillip may well house minimum security prisoners, they are housed within a maximum security environment, aren't they?---They are.
PN7980
Now, in terms of the maximum security environment, one of the features of that environment is that the movement of prisoners from one part of the prison to another is very tightly controlled and regulated, isn't it?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7981
What is required, I understand, is that often there are a series of gates or a series of barriers, usually a gate, where prisoners cannot go through those gates unless and until a prison officer actually hits a button and opens the gate for them. Is that correct?---Well, not a button as such. What happens is if a prisoner is in a mainstream prison or, sorry, a unit, he is given what we call a movement slip and that states on there where he is coming from and where he is going to and a time. He gets up to each individual gate, where there is another officer there, who will check the movement slip an also his ID, that that is him, and it is unlocked. It is a physical locking key, not a button as such.
PN7982
And am I correct in saying that the fact that gates have to be opened and closed would mean that there is always a prison officer there who is actually observing the movements of the prisoner from wherever he came, throughout let us call it the journey, to wherever he might be going? Would that be a correct statement to make?---Well, no, he can't observe them from point A to point B. The person on the gate would observe him approaching the gate and then leaving, but he can't observe him right from the point of the unit that he is leaving.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7983
If I can use an example, Port Phillip has an industries block or an industries area?---Yes, we have four industry buildings.
PN7984
Right, and are those industries blocks sort of located around the general - within the general perimeter or are they in a particular area of the prison?---They are within the prison confines, but there is a separate gate going into the industries area.
PN7985
And how many gates would there be between the gate which enables a prisoner to access the industries area and let us say for example the gate which enables him to leave his unit?---Depending on the part of the prison he came from, five in some cases.
PN7986
Five gates?---Yes.
PN7987
And in terms of those particular gates, what you are saying is that a prisoner's progress is really impeded by the gate unless or until it is opened for him by a prison official, a prison officer?---That is correct.
PN7988
That would, would it not, mean that really in terms of the regulation of prisoners' movements and so forth, there is a very high degree of regulation of prisoners' movements at Port Phillip. Do you accept that?---Reasonably high, yes. There are occasions, especially in the back units. We have three units which all run into one common compound. A prisoner will ask or a ticket to go to programs, etcetera, if that is his time, or the gymnasium whereby he could hang around that compound which, as I said, houses three different units, so you are looking at a couple of hundred prisoners there, just for the sake of talking through the windows to other units or wandering around at will prior to him actually getting to where he is supposed to be going.
PN7989
Do prison officers or correctional officers and supervisors wear uniforms out at Port Phillip?---A uniform? Well, I suppose it would be classified as a uniform, yes, white shirt which just says Group 4 on it, grey pants and we have a name badge with just our name and position, such as correctional officer or supervisor.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7990
Now, you have given evidence in your witness in your witness statement that you have worked in a variety of units within the prison?---Yes, that is correct.
PN7991
And on that basis, you are in a position you believe to talk relatively knowledgeably about the operations of the prison and so forth?---To an extent, yes.
PN7992
And I think you indicated in your statement and you have indicated this afternoon that one of the units in which you have worked is the intellectually disabled unit?---That is correct.
PN7993
And your evidence of a few months ago was that to enable you to perform that particular function, you have undertaken some specialist training to deal with intellectual disabled prisoners?---I took on some extra training for that, yes.
PN7994
And would you accept that dealing with intellectually disabled prisoners is somewhat more challenging than it is dealing with those who don't have those intellectual disabilities?---It is a different challenge. It is a different type of challenge.
PN7995
Do you know whether Fulham Correctional Centre has a unit for intellectually disabled prisoners?---To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe they have. I am led to believe that it is just Port Phillip Prison and Loddon.
PN7996
Your belief is correct. Another unit which you refer to in your witness statement is the youth unit?---Yes.
PN7997
Can you just indicate in terms of the youth unit what are the special needs or requirements of the inmates there?---Obviously their age.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN7998
Are they under the age of 18?---Yes, they have been. There are some cases where they have gone to the age of perhaps 26, 27, maybe because of a particular need. In there we have peer educators which are, of course, an older prisoner, anyway, and in that unit we have what we call a youth development co-ordinator which deals with a lot of their different needs.
PN7999
What are some of the special needs and challenges which the youth unit presents when compared to the general mainstream units?---I suppose it is a bit like dealing with any high strung teenager. It can be quite challenging. We have probably a higher number of drug addictions with the youth. Their needs are usually also work related because some of them have not had a job from the time they left school and things like this, so there is those sort of skills we need to impart on them.
PN8000
And do the correction officers and correction supervisors who work in that unit receive some special training to allow them to do so?---No.
PN8001
They don't receive any special training?---No.
PN8002
They are not vetted by management to ensure that they are compatible perhaps with the sort of inmates or prisoners they are going to have to look after?---No.
PN8003
Do you know whether Fulham Correctional Centre has a youth unit?---I don't, but I don't believe so.
PN8004
You belief is right on that one as well. It doesn't. Another unit which I think you have indicated in your statement that you have worked in is the psychiatric unit?---Yes.
PN8005
How large is the psychiatric unit in terms of capacity?---We are looking at around about 40, 45 beds.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8006
Forty, 45 beds?---Yes.
PN8007
And what is the average size of a unit in terms of the mainstream units at Port Phillip?---Anywhere between 30 to 75.
PN8008
So in terms of the size of the unit, the psychiatric unit certainly is very similar in numbers to a regular unit, if you use that variance of 30 to 75?---In numbers of prisoners, yes.
PN8009
Yes, it is a substantial sized unit, the psychiatric unit?---Yes.
PN8010
And the correctional officers and supervisors who work in that unit receive particular training to be able to do so?---No.
PN8011
They don't?---No.
PN8012
Even though they are dealing with prisoners with psychiatric illnesses, they don't get any training whatsoever?---No. When we are working in there, we are given more of an insight from the medical team that work in there, but no formal training from Group 4 to work in a psychiatric unit.
PN8013
So you don't receive any formal training in terms of attending a course or some form of regulated study?---No.
PN8014
But what you say is that the medical staff who are there speak to you and tell you or impart knowledge in that way?---Yes, as best they can.
PN8015
As best they can?---Without going into their medical details.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8016
Perhaps the traditional method of education when you talk to people and recount facts and stories or figures and that is another form of education?---It is all imparting knowledge and knowledge is education, yes.
PN8017
And some of that knowledge which is imparted is imparted by psychiatrists, medically qualified practitioners?---Yes.
PN8018
And some of it is imparted by nurses or psychiatric nurses with particular psychiatric nursing skills?---Correct.
PN8019
And would you accept that after a period of time, an officer or supervisor who has worked within the psychiatric unit has a body of knowledge and a body of practice which wouldn't be the case if he or she hadn't worked in that unit previously and had been confined to the mainstream unit?---A very limited one, but, yes, that is correct.
PN8020
And Fulham doesn't have a psychiatric unit either, does it?---That I am not sure. I believe in one of the statements there was a comment on psychiatric or psychological department.
PN8021
I can indicate to you there isn't, on instructions, but we move to another unit within Port Phillip Prison and that is the hospital unit?---Yes.
PN8022
And I take it that what that means is that if a prisoner falls ill and it is an illness of such gravity that they require hospitalisation, you don't need to take the prisoner down to Western General Hospital or whatever the nearest public hospital is. You can actually treat the patient there at the prison. Is that correct?---Depending on the illness and what treatments, yes.
PN8023
And that is one of the features or perhaps a feature of the fact that the prison is a maximum security prison, that you actually want to try to reduce the number of escorts of prisoners coming out of a maximum security prison into the mainstream population. Would you accept that?---That is not what the hospital was put there for, no.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8024
How large is the hospital?---The hospital?
PN8025
In terms of bed size?---I think we are looking at around about 20 beds, or as the hospital like to call them, wards.
PN8026
And do you know what the average capacity is of the hospital unit in terms of prisoners in beds?---In the hospital?
PN8027
Yes?---Sorry, yes, there is about 20 beds. I do beg your pardon, anywhere between one and four beds to each ward.
PN8028
And how many on average - we are talking occupancy of the beds, how many prisoners at any one time are usually in the hospital receiving medical treatment?---That can vary from six up to the 20.
PN8029
So a minimum of six at any one time and if there is a lot of illness, a maximum of 20. The prison correctional officers and correctional supervisors, do they receive specific training before going into the hospital unit?---No.
PN8030
Is it another situation perhaps of the medical staff, the nurses and doctors, imparting knowledge on an informal basis?---Not in the hospital, no.
[2.37pm]
PN8031
And you understand or you know, don't you, that Fulham doesn't have a hospital unit, does it?---That is correct.
PN8032
Now, one of the other areas of Port Phillip is the remand section, isn't it?---Not so much a remand section, but we have remandees there. We don't have a separate section for remand prisoners.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8033
So remandees can be located anywhere within the hospital, but it is a situation where they are yet to be tried for the crimes of which they have been accused?---Yes. They can be housed throughout the prison.
PN8034
Have they received a security classification yet?---That is usually done by sentence management in town.
PN8035
So when the prisoners arrive on remand, they are usually classified either maximum, medium or minimum?---Yes.
PN8036
And is it fair to say that among the remand prisoners as a general group of prisoners, there is often a higher level of tension and frustration than there would be among mainstream prisoners?---Not necessarily a rule of thumb, no.
PN8037
These prisoners don't know whether they are going to be convicted or not, do they?---That is correct, but a lot of them, it is not their first time in either, so - - -
PN8038
They might have a fairly good idea of what is going to happen?---That is exactly right.
PN8039
But they don't know that in terms of knowledge yet, do they?---No, they don't know what the judge is going to hand down.
PN8040
They certainly don't know what length of sentence, if any, they are going to be getting, do they?---Only what is usually given by their legal representation.
PN8041
And it is fair to say that against that sort of background, they are probably a little bit more on edge and a little bit more flighty, to use that term, than your average prisoner who knows that he has been convicted and knows that he has however many years or months to serve of his sentence?---It usually only occurs with the first timers.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8042
You know that there aren't any of those first timers in terms of remand prison down at Fulham, don't you?---I don't. I am not sure whether for any reason some people are sent straight to Fulham or not.
PN8043
Well, if I was to indicate to you that there are no remand prisoners at Fulham, you wouldn't be in a position to disagree with that, would you?---That is correct.
PN8044
Now, you have said in your witness statement that Port Phillip houses a combination of maximum, medium and minimum security classified prisoners?---Correct.
PN8045
But you have agreed with me that the prison as a whole is a maximum security facility?---Correct.
PN8046
It is operated as a maximum security facility?---Yes.
PN8047
And if a prisoner is a minimum security classification, he is still dealt with as if he were a maximum security prisoner in terms of the controls and regulations which are imposed upon him?---That is correct.
PN8048
A minimum security prisoner is handcuffed, for example, when he arrives at the prison, isn't he?---When he arrives?
PN8049
Yes?---Yes.
PN8050
Now, you know that Fulham is instead a minimum and maximum security prison - I am sorry, is a minimum security prison - a medium security prison? Are you aware of that?---I am.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8051
And you are also aware that a large part of that prison is actually a minimum security area, the area known as the cottages?---Yes.
PN8052
And you are aware that the sort of controls you have talked about in the past in terms of gates and regulation of prisoner movement doesn't apply at Fulham to the extent to which it applies at Port Phillip?---That is correct. I understand they don't have the sort of control we have.
PN8053
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, when you say control we have, do you mean individually or the gates and - - -?---In the way of number of officers being able to escort and security gates inside the prison.
PN8054
So just to clarify, you say you have more gates and more security officers?---Internally, yes.
PN8055
Sorry, Mr D'Abaco.
PN8056
MR D'ABACO: His Honour was taken last year on a tour of the prison and part of the tour entailed a tour of the minimum security area where prisoners were free to wander from recreational areas to their residences which are called cottages, little self contained units, out in the grounds. That sort of movement isn't possible at Port Phillip, is it?---No.
PN8057
When prisoners arrive at Port Phillip for escort, I think you gave some evidence earlier today that it can take anything between 10 or 15 minutes on a good day to perhaps an hour, worst case scenario two hours?---Absolutely.
PN8058
When that happens, a prisoner or prisoners are escorted by officers from the prison from where they are coming?---Yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8059
And until the prisoner or prisoners who are arriving are entrusted to your good selves, it is the responsibility of those particular officers to stay with the prisoner at all times, isn't it?---Yes, unless we have got holding cells, which a lot of time we have holding cells for the ingoing and the outgoing which are separated and if we have got holding cells where we can put them in, they can sit in there, which then allows the officers to be able to step out of their van without being locked up, yes.
PN8060
But the holding cells are not available, the case is, is it not, that the prisoner or prisoners who are arriving stay in the van?---That is correct.
PN8061
And the prison officers from the prison from where they came stay with them for the duration of that period?---Not all of them, because they have to come in with their paperwork and let us know what they have got and who they have got.
PN8062
Yes, but once they have done that, presumably there are at least two officers who come in accompanying a prisoner?---Yes.
PN8063
One stays with the prisoner in the van?---That is correct.
PN8064
The other one comes in with the paperwork?---Yes.
PN8065
And the normal practice would be that once the paperwork is submitted, that prison officer would go back to his mate in the van to look after the prisoner until the hand-over takes place?---Yes, once we have accepted the paperwork is correct and the prisoner is correct for that paperwork, he becomes our responsibility.
PN8066
In terms of the remand prisoners that I asked you about a few moments ago, what are the average numbers of remand prisoners that you would have down at Port Phillip?---I couldn't give you a breakdown of numbers. It would vary.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8067
Are we talking about the 10s or are we talking about the hundreds?---We are probably talking about the hundreds.
PN8068
About the hundreds?---Mm.
PN8069
And all remand prisoners are classified maximum security, aren't they?---No, not necessarily. They can come in with a lower rating.
PN8070
That is not common, though, is it?---Not common, but they can come in at a lower rating.
PN8071
It is fairly infrequent, in fact, isn't it?---That they come in with maximum?
PN8072
Less than a maximum security classification?---That is right, it is infrequent, but it does happen.
PN8073
I want to ask you some questions, if I can, please, Mr King, in relation to incident reporting and so forth. In terms of the reporting of incidents to Government officials, the responsible Government official to whom incidents have to be reported is the Commissioner for Correctional Services. Is that correct?---Yes, that is correct.
PN8074
And one of the methods by which incidents and I am just talking about incidents in general at the moment, one way in which those incidents are reported is through utilising the PIM system, is that correct?---That is correct.
PN8075
At Port Phillip, who has access to the reporting function on the PIM system?---Every officer has access to PIMS, but there are various sections of PIMS and not all officers have access to that. It is broken down depending on where you work. Like, reception officers would have access to visitors, etcetera, where a unit officer would not.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8076
And perhaps if we look firstly at the correctional officer level. Their use of PIMS, to what extent are correctional officers required to utilise the PIM system?---To get various information from as to Court dates, classifications as far as their rating, next of kin, their movements throughout different gaols, any incidents, etcetera, but we are not able to make any changes or alterations to PIMS.
PN8077
And for how long have correctional officers had that sort of access to the PIM system?---We have always had that access.
PN8078
And in having that access, did you or your fellow officers receive specific formal training to be able to access the system?---Yes, part of our six weeks' training, part of that was in that, yes.
PN8079
And is there also an element of on the job training, as it were, that if a correctional officer is stuck at a particular point in time, a correctional supervisor will come over and show him or her what to do or another officer will come over?---I wouldn't call it formal training, but, yes, you have always got the availability to ask one of your fellow employees to give you a help out.
PN8080
And if the PIM system wasn't there, imagine that, what would you or any other correctional officer have to do to try to get that information?---We would go through their file.
PN8081
And which one do you think is easier, using the PIM system or the manual method of going through the file?---It is not so much whether it is easier. What is on PIMS is usually more up to date, because a file will be in hard copies of paperwork. Paperwork could get lost or somebody hasn't quite filed it yet, whereas PIMS, it is usually updated from town.
PN8082
So your view is the PIM system is more accurate?---One would hope that it is more accurate, yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8083
Quicker to access the information?---No, not always quicker.
PN8084
Do you think it makes your job a little bit easier than it would be if you had to do it the other way?---It is probably slightly easier, yes, but providing the information is accurate in the file and up to date, it is just as easy to pull a file out.
PN8085
But let us say you have to look at the details of four or five prisoners. If you are using the PIM system, you can sit at a computer keyboard?---Yes.
PN8086
And you can simply key up the details, I presume, and sequentially get the details you require on each prisoner. Is that right?---That is correct.
PN8087
Whereas if you had to look for files, you have got to pull down four or five individual files?---That is correct.
PN8088
One of them will inevitably be misplaced or misfiled?---There is always that chance.
PN8089
And the chances are it could take a bit more time?---That is correct. It has also been known, though, that the information on PIMS at times has been incorrect.
PN8090
Yes, we all know that computers occasionally are wrong. What other information systems or computerised information systems are used by correctional officers and supervisors out at Port Phillip?---We have what we call the prisoner identification system which we can bring up the details of the prisoner and that immediately tells us where he is housed, because again you can have movements on a daily basis, moving a prisoner from a different unit, depending on where he has worked or if something has happened and that takes time to get through the system, but with prisoner identification, that is done internally so that is usually within 24 hours fairly well accurate as to where he is and what his contract is on, etcetera.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8091
Does that also include details such as balances of prisoner savings accounts and so forth?---No.
PN8092
Is that a separate system?---Yes, we make phone calls for that.
PN8093
You have to make phone calls for that, do you?---Yes.
PN8094
And when you have got to make a phone call, is that, what, usually in response to a query from a prisoner, is it?---Yes, yes, on a daily basis they want to know how much money they have.
PN8095
Yes, and if you were able to access that information off a computer screen, just as you can access PIMS, do you think it would make your job a little bit easier in that regard?---I wouldn't say it was any easier or less easy. All I do now is pick up a phone and run it off the guy's CRN number and the person on the other end has access to the computer and that is all he does is prisoner moneys and he gives me the information within seconds.
PN8096
What if that person isn't there because he is on a break or away ill or some other reason? What happens then?---Then the prisoner doesn't get the information.
PN8097
Does the prisoner get a little bit frustrated or impatient if that happens?---Certainly can.
PN8098
That makes your job a little bit harder on those occasions, doesn't it? You would rather not have frustrated or impatient prisoners?---I would rather not have the frustrations at any time.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8099
In terms of the reporting function, I think you said that one of the reporting mechanisms to report incidents is the PIM system which goes up to the Commissioner's office. Are there any other reporting mechanisms of which you are aware?---We don't put our reports on PIMS. Ours is all documented on paper and that goes to a collator who can then put it on PIMS. She has the access to make any alterations.
PN8100
And is the collator a representative who works not on the units as it were, as part of the administration area?---That is correct.
PN8101
And in terms of whatever information she logs onto the PIM system, you are not actually aware personally, are you, of what incidents or manner in which incidents are reported onto PIMS, are you?---Sorry, how do you mean?
PN8102
Well, you put in a report?---Yes, there is an officer's report goes in, handed to the supervisor. The supervisor then under section 50 of the Corrections Act does his interview and then he puts in his supervisor's report and both of those reports then are handed to the collator and she then draws up the actual hearing for the prisoner and then whatever the outcome of that hearing is, she then puts it all onto PIMS, whether it was a drug related offence or whatever the incidents are.
PN8103
And does the collator, the person you have referred to - it is a she, I understand, I think you said?---At this moment, yes.
PN8104
Does she after receiving the report from yourself and the supervisor assess the report and then make a decision as to what needs to be reported?---No.
PN8105
Does she make a decision in relation to the nature of the report?---No.
PN8106
You say that the nature of her report is based exclusively upon whatever you or a supervisor write in your report?---Whatever the findings are from the hearing.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8107
In the hearing?---Yes.
PN8108
Now, my learned friend asked you some questions in relation to what you might write in your report if a prisoner presents himself to you with an injury. Do you remember those questions?---Yes.
PN8109
If a prisoner presents himself to you, Mr King, with two black eyes, a severely beaten up side of his head and he says he has fallen over in the shower, what do you think has normally happened?---Prison terminology, he has been flogged.
PN8110
You put those facts in the report in terms of your observations?---I put in what he presented to me and I can also put in that my opinion is that this was inflicted by a third party, but if he stands there and tells me he has fallen over, I have to accept that.
PN8111
So you might put in my opinion the prison officer has been assaulted, in your opinion, but you I think said quite properly that you would also say the prisoner has said he fell over and I can't make any findings because there were no independent witnesses?---I have never put in my opinion about a prison officer, but for a prisoner - - -
PN8112
A prisoner, I am sorry?---Yes.
PN8113
Now, it is true, isn't it, that if you have a situation like that where a prisoner presents himself in such a manner and a prisoner is not prepared to make a complaint and no-one else saw it, generally speaking the incident will not be investigated any further?---It will be investigated by our security intelligence and if they deem necessary, they will still report it to the police and from the last discussions we had, I believe the prison squad has been re-formed and they are the only ones now that can take a notice of non-complaint from the prisoner.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8114
And as a consequence of that, it may be the end of the matter in the sense of any formal investigation for assault or any sort of criminal charges being laid? That is correct?---That is correct. It doesn't stop us being wary of what happened and who we think might be to blame and keeping a wary eye and watching the way things turn out.
PN8115
Are you aware of what the contractual reporting requirements are as between Group 4 and the Commissioner's office?---As far as I know, all they go in is under the section 50 of the Corrections Act which is what we do with the officer's report, the supervisor's report, the determination of the disciplinary officer and reporting officer.
PN8116
Are you aware of the definitions which are contained in those reporting requirements of what needs to be reported as an assault?---I am not quite sure what you mean there.
PN8117
Well, what I am putting to you is this. There are certain reporting requirements which Group 4 has to comply with in terms of its contract with the State Government. Do you accept that?---Yes.
PN8118
You are not personally aware, are you, of what those reporting requirements are, are you?---What they have with the Government, no.
PN8119
So while you may not see an investigation into a supposed assault, you can't say one way or the other whether that affects what is reported ultimately to the Commissioner's office, can you?---No, I can't.
PN8120
No further questions, your Honour.
PN8121
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr D'Abaco. Just before you re-examine, I have just a couple of questions I want to ask. How many classification levels do you have? Is it just three, the correctional officer, accredited correctional officer and acting supervisor or supervisor?---We have a trainee officer, an accredited officer, yes.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8122
And you are an acting supervisor at the moment?---I am a correctional officer and an acting supervisor.
PN8123
Do you recall what the level of your gross salary was as a correctional officer, an accredited correctional officer?---Around the 40,000.
PN8124
About 40,000?---Yes.
PN8125
And you work shifts, do you?---Yes, we do, your Honour.
PN8126
Do you know what the shift rosters are? How many shifts are there? What is the shift pattern?---We do a 12-1/4 and a 12-1/2 hour shift. It is a rotational shift, but it is mainly a daylight shift. We do - it varies, but my particular roster I do four night shifts every 12 weeks.
PN8127
And how many correctional or accredited correctional officers and correctional officers do they have on a shift? I suppose it depends on what shift it is, whether it is morning or afternoon?---Well, that is correct. Well, no, we just have the two. We have the daylight shift and we have the night shift, a lot less on nights because the prison is locked down.
PN8128
Do you know how many there are?---On shift of a night time, I believe there is about 11.
PN8129
And what about of a day time?---Of a day time, probably looking around the 70 mark. I would have to look it out, position sheets.
PN8130
What aspect of your job would you say adds the most value to the business?---Adds the most value to the business?
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING XXN MR D'ABACO
PN8131
Yes?---I suppose controlling to a point where there is less incidents to be reported.
PN8132
Is there anything arising out of that, Mr D'Abaco?
PN8133
MR D'ABACO: No, your Honour.
PN8134
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any re-examination?
PN8135
PN8136
MR LAWRENCE: Mr King, you mentioned a notice of non-complaint. Do you recall that?---Yes.
PN8137
What is that?---That is an official complaint form or it is an official form that the prisoner is required to fill out now. Most times it is done if he has put in a complaint of an alleged assault and then later wants to recount it which happens quite often, because he has been threatened or intimidated by a third, fourth party and to be able to withdraw that, he has to put in a notice of non-complaint which has to be now investigated by the prison squad, whereby it used to be investigated by our own internal security people.
PN8138
I see, and what happens following the filing of a notice of non-complaint? Is the matter taken any further to your knowledge?---What happens after that to my knowledge? No, all I know is that we get the form and get it filled out. We pass it on to security Intel, which is security intelligence and they then pass it on to the police or the prison squad. From then on we don't know. Sometimes if the matter goes to a hearing, we will get the outcome of the hearing, because that paperwork we will get a copy of to go on the person's file.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8139
I see, and your evidence was earlier that as I take it, that if the prisoner maintains from the outset that he has fallen over in the shower, then the matter doesn't tend to proceed much further?---Very difficult to proceed much further, yes.
PN8140
Now, in terms of you were asked some questions about your attire, do you wear epaulettes?---No.
PN8141
So it is a shirt and tie and trousers?---Shirt, tie, trousers, name badge, that is it.
PN8142
Now, you were asked some questions by my learned friend about the negotiations leading up to the 2001 certified agreement. Do you recall that?---Yes.
PN8143
Now, in answer to one of those questions, you talked about a stumbling block in that you are under the Security Award and not a Corrections Award. Do you recall that?---Yes.
PN8144
What did you mean by that?---It has always been a bone of contention that we were initially put under the Securities Award which basically put our pay rate as a security officer, rather than a correctional award, which would put us under a pay rate of a correctional officer, because that is what we were employed as, correctional officers. We were never employed as security guards.
PN8145
And you also said when my learned friend asked you some questions about the proposed work value review, that the work value review was to be conducted in terms of other prisons, not just Port Phillip Prison. Do you recall that?---Yes.
PN8146
And on what basis did you believe that?---That was always our belief from the negotiations we had for the current EBA.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8147
Do you still have ACM4 with you?---My documents are not numbered, sorry.
PN8148
It is this notice to employees, Mr King?---Yes.
PN8149
And I think if I recall your evidence correctly, you said that you thought this might have been drafted by Mr Moran?---Yes.
PN8150
And I think my learned friend put to you that Mr Moran might be a representative of management at Port Phillip Prison?---Yes.
PN8151
Or acting on behalf of management of Port Phillip Prison?---That is correct.
PN8152
Do you recall seeing this document prior to it going out, Mr King?---I can't recall whether I saw it prior to going out or not. There was a lot of these documents, but normally the notice to employees were not necessarily run by us prior.
PN8153
They might have been put out directly by management?---Yes.
PN8154
I have no further questions, Mr King. Thank you very much.
PN8155
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have one further matter I want to raise with you. Do you know what criteria was used for the purposes of security classification of prisoners?---No, that is handled by what we call sentence management.
PN8156
So you don't know what the criteria is?---No, no. It is generally past history, known associates, type of crime. There is a whole array of things that come into it.
**** RAYMOND LEONARD KING RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8157
Thank you. Did you have something else, Mr D'Abaco?
PN8158
MR D'ABACO: No, your Honour.
PN8159
PN8160
MR LAWRENCE: Your Honour, that completes the union witnesses, but of the union case, I would reserve our position. There might be some further documents that we wish to put in prior to formally closing our case and we will do so when the matter resumes on 12 March.
PN8161
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you don't anticipate calling any more witnesses?
PN8162
MR LAWRENCE: I don't anticipate calling any more witnesses, your Honour, no.
PN8163
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well.
PN8164
MR LAWRENCE: And that leads us into the issue of the further programming of the matter.
PN8165
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you, Mr Lawrence. Is there anything that the respondent was going to do today other than - - -
PN8166
MR D'ABACO: No, your Honour.
PN8167
MR DOUGLAS: No, your Honour.
PN8168
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well, can we go off the record for a moment.
OFF THE RECORD
PN8169
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: During the brief adjournment, the parties have had some discussions about further programming of this matter and there are seven days set aside at present, but it is anticipated that a further three days may be necessary. My Associate will contact the parties' instructing solicitors and confirm those dates as the first three sitting days in May. The matter is adjourned until 12 March.
ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 12 MARCH 2003 [3.13pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
PETER JAMES EWER, AFFIRMED PN7381
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LAWRENCE PN7381
EXHIBIT #CPSU21 STATEMENT OF P.J. EWER PN7399
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DOUGLAS PN7495
WITNESS WITHDREW PN7653
RAYMOND LEONARD KING, SWORN PN7663
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LAWRENCE PN7663
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR D'ABACO PN7781
EXHIBIT #ACM13 ALHMWU/CPSU GROUP 4 CORRECTION SERVICES EMPLOYEES VICTORIA INTERIM AWARD 1998 PN7830
EXHIBIT #ACM14 ALHMWU/CPSU GROUP 4 CORRECTIONAL SERVICES EMPLOYEES VICTORIA AWARD 2002 PN7832
EXHIBIT #ACM15 COPY STATUTORY DECLARATION PN7924
EXHIBIT #ACM16 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE COMMISSION ON 06/09/2001 PN7944
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAWRENCE PN8136
WITNESS WITHDREW PN8160
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