C2003/635, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 703 (3 March 2003)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER HODDER

C2003/635

QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED

and

TRANSPORT WORKERS UNION OF AUSTRALIA

Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute

BRISBANE

10.29 AM, THURSDAY, 13 FEBRUARY 2003

Continued from 8.1.03

PN243

THE COMMISSIONER: Could I have the appearances, please.

PN244

MR C. YPINAZAR: Ypinazar, initial C, for Qantas. With me is MR SEE, initial A.

PN245

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN246

MR D. PRIOR: As it please the Commission, name is Prior, initial D, industrial officer for the Transport Workers Union of Australia, Queensland branch. With me I have, from right to left, PETE PAULOS, TWU organiser, PHIL SCOTT and SCOTT SPEED, delegates at Qantas domestic terminal.

PN247

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Now the purpose of today's proceedings was for the parties to report back to the Commission consistent with what the Commission had placed on the record on the last occasion this matter was before me on 8 January, and I'll just reiterate what I said at that time:

PN248

So the parties are clear on what they've undertaken to do. Let's have a review in a time-frame whereby ...(reads)... if that becomes further necessary.

PN249

And Mr See did raise a question:

PN250

I'm a little bit unclear as to the status of the application.

PN251

But I've made that clearly. So what have you got to tell me?

PN252

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, in accordance with your directions, on 9 January, Qantas provided a letter to the TWU. Qantas said it would be considering the following issues, two issues, the introduction of schedule driven zero base rostering practices and introduction of part-time leading hands on the domestic ramp. The TWU - - -

PN253

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have a copy of that correspondence there, Mr Ypinazar?

PN254

MR YPINAZAR: Yes, I can hand that up, Commissioner.

PN255

THE COMMISSIONER: I'll mark that as - - -

PN256

MR YPINAZAR: It's an unsigned copy but it's - - -

PN257

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that's okay.

PN258

MR YPINAZAR: - - - a true and exact copy of what was sent out, Commissioner.

PN259

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry?

PN260

MR YPINAZAR: It was a true copy of what was sent out.

PN261

THE COMMISSIONER: That's okay. That will become Qantas exhibit 1.

EXHIBIT #QANTAS1 LETTER DATED 09/01/2003 FROM QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED TO TWU

PN262

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have a copy of that, Mr Prior?

PN263

MR PRIOR: I do, Commissioner.

PN264

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, thank you.

PN265

MR YPINAZAR: Qantas nominated the ramp services manager, Mr Dimitri Politis as its contact point. In response, on Monday the 13th, the TWU sent a letter to Qantas advising that their contact - they nominated Mark Walker, the TWU organiser whilst Peter Paulos was currently on leave, and the delegates at the Brisbane domestic terminal of Scott Speed and from Brisbane international, Mr Grant Mitchell. Does the Commissioner have a copy of that?

PN266

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I don't. I might mark that as a TWU exhibit. It will be TWU exhibit 2.

EXHIBIT #TWU2 LETTER DATED 13/01/2003 FROM TWU TO QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED

PN267

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.

PN268

MR YPINAZAR: Subsequently to the exchange of letters, a meeting was held. Various meetings have been held over the course of the month. Qantas has explained the review that's been undergoing. Throughout this review, the focus for Qantas was that it needed to have a system in place and a rostering system in place that was responsive to the business needs. As the Commissioner will be aware, the business climate for airlines at the moment is extremely tight and difficult, particularly in light of developments in the Middle East. In response to that, Qantas identified a need to have changes to its rostering systems made.

PN269

To this extent, Qantas devised an alternate set of rosters which have been provided to the TWU - had explained to the TWU. The TWU has been invited to comment on these rosters; however, we have yet to receive any - Qantas has yet to receive any feed-back from the TWU. They have been requested on numerous occasions to put in an alternate rostering proposal, but have not come up with it. In relation to the transferring of the staff, the Commission will be aware that the status quo was maintained and two of the five people at issue were transferred on 22 January.

PN270

There was also a further expression of interest was issued that prior to being before the Commission previously, one further person indicated that they wanted to transfer from Brisbane international to Brisbane domestic. This person volunteered and had the requisite skills. The TWU was notified of this; however, it was rejected by the TWU so Qantas finds itself in a position now of having identified a position that it wants to get to in terms of business need and - however, the TWU haven't provided alternatives despite their request. A meeting was scheduled for yesterday.

PN271

The day before yesterday, the TWU turned up unannounced and handed over a document that was simply a copy of the letter that was given to them back in November - 11 November which was the initial offer to transfer four full-timers from the international terminal to the domestic and to make up four part-timers up to full-time at the domestic terminal. That offer was no longer on the table. There's no reason for the TWU to have thought that that offer was still on the table given that they themselves had rejected and Qantas has undergone this extensive review which has clearly identified that there are no longer eight positions available.

PN272

So the position Qantas finds itself in is that it has identified a direction it wants to move forward. It has identified efficiencies that can be maintained, that can be achieved, and it wants to act on those and it's finding the TWU fairly unresponsive in that regard.

PN273

THE COMMISSIONER: I thought the intention was to have a review of all of the circumstances.

PN274

MR YPINAZAR: The review of the circumstances has been conducted at the meetings of the 17th, 21st and 30 January. The - Qantas's position was outlined clearly to the union.

PN275

THE COMMISSIONER: But in terms of the status quo, I agreed that two could be transferred but I didn't see that there were going to be further transfers until we had the review and some outcomes out of that.

PN276

MR YPINAZAR: Well - I understand what the Commission is saying. An expression of interest had been issued prior to coming to the Commission on 8 January.

PN277

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but everything basically was put on hold from the day of that hearing.

PN278

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, it was - the position was put to the union saying, "This person has identified that they want to move across. They have the skills. This is what we're proposing to do". We didn't - the position for Qantas was that, "Look, if this is something that can be worked out between Qantas and the union independently, then that will show that the parties are working together. We've put the proposal forward; the TWU has rejected it out of hand".

PN279

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well - but part of the problem is that there was no - there was really no provision for that to occur until we'd had the review.

PN280

MR YPINAZAR: Well, there was provision to discuss and try to agree on issues.

PN281

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So there was no point complaining about it; the point - position is they have not agreed to that.

PN282

MR YPINAZAR: Exactly.

PN283

THE COMMISSIONER: So what then has been the subject of the review?

PN284

MR YPINAZAR: The subject of the review has been, as identified in Qantas exhibit 1, there was two topics for review: one was the introduction of a zero based roster and the other was the introduction of permanent part-time leading hands. Those have been the primary topics of the review.

PN285

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, how was that review conducted?

PN286

MR YPINAZAR: The review was conducted by Qantas in identifying what its business position was and its business needs and identifying how the current schedule and the current roster system can be improved, to be made more cost efficient. As the Commission may recall - - -

PN287

THE COMMISSIONER: And what was the response of the TWU? You've not had a response?

PN288

MR YPINAZAR: We haven't had a response. The TWU - it will be acknowledged that the TWU had - some of the delegates have worked with Qantas, particularly in the baggage department. I think Mr Trevor Guy and Mark Reader have had feedback at meetings; however they have been constantly invited to provide their own rostering system. Qantas has said, "Look, if you can come up with a roster system that is actually cost-effective and can be implemented, then we will listen to it and we'll consider it." Despite numerous promises that the rostering system would be provided, nothing, to date, has been provided

PN289

Qantas is in a position where it wants to move forward and it finds itself a little hamstrung with that.

PN290

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Prior?

PN291

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Commissioner. By way of response, we might go back to that letter of 9 January. We concur that the intention that Qantas put forward in their correspondence was introduction of schedule driven zero-based rostering practices, and the second dot point, introduction of part-time leading hands on the domestic ramp. We understand that the purpose of the correspondence was to flag their issues that they intended to look at through the course of that review. We wrote back on the Monday, as agreed, and effectively, in the last three paragraphs, we then said:

PN292

We advise that members employed at each location are available. Our members believe that rostering procedures are constantly reviewed and we welcome the opportunity to meet informally to discuss that.

PN293

As indicated by the company, that fact did take place. The next paragraph says:

PN294

In addition to the issues identified in Qantas correspondence mentioned above, the review to be conducted will identify whether any requirement exists to relocate full-time employees from international to domestic -

PN295

that being one of the issues that was discussed when we were last before you, that we believe that the process of review would identify what the outcome would be.

PN296

In that regard, Commissioner, our concern with their correspondence was simply that they said it is the above processes that have identified the current requirement to relocate. We were concerned that perhaps that correspondence seemed somewhat presumptive in indicating that we will pursue this with a relocation and, in conduction with that, we are conducting a review. Sir, our concern was to suggest, in our correspondence, that the review would indicate what the outcomes were before anybody was setting anything in concrete in terms of who would be moved where and under what circumstances. Commissioner, I must correct - - -

PN297

THE COMMISSIONER: Did you sit down and talk about this?

PN298

MR PRIOR: I understand that, as recently as 30 January, there was a lengthy discussion. I have some minutes that reflect that discussion. Commissioner, I just need to correct the company on one point. Rosters for the purposes of costing were provided by delegates on site and I must also address that correspondence.

PN299

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let us get an answer to that. What do you say about that, Mr Ypinazar?

PN300

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, we are instructed that Qantas is yet to receive these rosters. We have requested them on numerous occasions.

PN301

THE COMMISSIONER: Maybe they sent them by pony express to you?

PN302

MR PRIOR: Well, Commissioner, what I am looking at are some rosters that are costed. So perhaps if we are breaking - - -

PN303

THE COMMISSIONER: Who were they provided to?

PN304

MR PRIOR: Mr Coco, I believe, Steve Coco, on site.

PN305

THE COMMISSIONER: Does Qantas know who this guy is?

PN306

MR YPINAZAR: Steve is a planning and resource officer. He has been assisting, I understand, in the costing process. However, there has been no indication that this is the formal position on the rosters from the union. Our understanding is that he has been assisting in the process simply.

PN307

MR PRIOR: Commissioner, my instructions are that that was the person that the company nominated to provide the roster to.

PN308

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, wait on. Let's get that clear. That is a fairly direct allegation. Is that true or not? Or a claim, not so much an allegation.

PN309

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, would this be easier to discuss this point in conference?

PN310

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I want an answer to it.

PN311

MR YPINAZAR: Our answer is, Commissioner, that Mick Reader has been repeatedly asked for what the union's rosters are. He has not provided that. Mick Reader has been at the discussions - - -

PN312

THE COMMISSIONER: Who is Mick Reader?

PN313

MR YPINAZAR: He is a representative from the TWU.

PN314

THE COMMISSIONER: Who did you say they were given to, Mr Prior?

PN315

MR PRIOR: Stephen Coco.

PN316

MR YPINAZAR: Stephen is a Qantas employee who has been assisting with the initial documentation. It is quite a complicated process - - -

PN317

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but the claim is that Qantas identified this person as the person to give these proposed rosters to - or costed rosters to. They have done that and now you are claiming no knowledge of it. That is the point.

PN318

MR YPINAZAR: Yes, Commissioner. Excuse me.

PN319

MR PRIOR: Perhaps I might move on, Commissioner.

PN320

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I want to get this cleared up.

PN321

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, my instructions are that Steve Coco has been assisting the TWU. He was - the TWU were provided with this resource to assist them with the costing. As recently as 10 February, Mr Politis, the ramp services manager, has spoken with Mick Reader to ask on the progress of the TWU rosters. Mick has advised that he is still working on them and would call back later. The supervisor indicated that Mick would be bringing the rosters into the administration on 11 February at 9 am. On 11 February, Dimitri has run Mick Reader again to say, "Look, what time are you coming over? When are you bringing these rosters?" Mick indicated between 10 and 11 on that day. At 12.15 on 11 February he rang and said he is not coming over, not bringing the rosters and may come over tomorrow.

PN322

Following that conversation, Mr Politis rang Scott Speed and inquired as to the whereabouts of the TWU rosters. Scott advised that there would be a meeting held tomorrow on 12 February. Later on that afternoon, that's when Mr Speed and Mr O'Donoghue presented themselves unannounced and advised that the meeting of members had agreed to the offer that had been made on 11 November about - - -

PN323

THE COMMISSIONER: But that wasn't what this was all about.

PN324

MR YPINAZAR: No, but it is in relation to it. Mr Politis was told that on the meeting of the 12th, he would be given the rosters. This was delay after delay after delay. Then the union representatives have turned up and said, "We're not turning up to the meeting on the 12th." That is the position of the company is that we have received no formal indication from the TWU that these are the final rosters.

PN325

THE COMMISSIONER: What's going on, Mr Prior? Does everybody think that they can just slow all this down?

PN326

MR PRIOR: I don't believe that is the indication from our side.

PN327

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it sounds like that.

PN328

MR PRIOR: Commissioner, perhaps I might address the other two issues that the company addressed and we might decide whether it is appropriate to go into conference. We had a meeting on Tuesday, 11 February. I understand that subsequent to that meeting, the intention was to revisit the offer that had been put in a without-prejudice document - - -

PN329

THE COMMISSIONER: Who is "we had a meeting"?

PN330

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I had a meeting with the delegates on site at Qantas on the basis that we were looking at what the outcome from the review in the hope that we would receive that document in time to read that before coming today, which we thank the company for providing. The delegates indicated that their intention was to go back to the company on Tuesday and ask the company would they reconsider the terms of the offer made in a without-prejudice document on 11 November on the basis that they would support it if the company was prepared to implement that document.

PN331

THE COMMISSIONER: But, look, this was all supposed to be about a review, not about something that happened last year. That was all off the table.

PN332

MR PRIOR: Indeed, Commissioner. I guess we got a response to that request on Tuesday. The concern - - -

PN333

THE COMMISSIONER: I bet that was a surprise, too.

PN334

MR PRIOR: Perhaps, Commissioner, nothing ventured, nothing gained in that regard but that brings us forward to the document that they brought to me to have a discussion on Tuesday which they were concerned about being the document of 10 February indicating that there was an expression of interest and the company had an intention to bring another person down before the review was concluded.

PN335

THE COMMISSIONER: So that is what has caused the breakdown?

PN336

MR PRIOR: That created some angst but, Commissioner - - -

PN337

THE COMMISSIONER: You're as bad as one another.

PN338

MR PRIOR: - - - but the document that really had us concerned was the document that the company did send to us. Now, my copy - - -

PN339

THE COMMISSIONER: Which one?

PN340

MR PRIOR: My copy is dated 12 February '03. This is a document to All Ramp Services Staff from Peter Trevaway. It is actually dated 10 February, but I received a copy of the 12th. It is a two-page document. It talks - well - - -

PN341

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, can the Commission see it?

PN342

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner.

PN343

THE COMMISSIONER: Sounds like I'll have to have a review of the review.

PN344

MR PRIOR: Well, Commissioner, I'll come to the main point of concern that we have with the review based on this document.

PN345

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, we've got a copy of the covering memorandum, however, everything that was issued to - each employee received a copy of this plus the minutes of the meeting. The copy we're handing up doesn't have a copy of the minutes of the meeting.

PN346

MR PRIOR: No, that's not strictly relevant to the comment that I'm about - - -

PN347

MR YPINAZAR: Well, it's relevant in the sense that it's referred to in the letter and it's drawn from - the minutes of the meeting are referenced throughout. What happened in the meetings are referenced throughout in the document.

PN348

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Commissioner. Now, that document, I believe, is dated 10 February 2003. It's directed to all ramp services staff at Brisbane Airport. I guess the concern we have is that we - well, it's our belief, and I guess it's supported by the company's position today, that this is the only correspondence that we've received, and again it didn't come to us direct, to say what he outcome of the review formally is. So, I suppose, the concern I have is that we don't have anything on letterhead directed to us.

PN349

THE COMMISSIONER: But, I mean, in terms of a review isn't that something that you both make a contribution to?

PN350

MR PRIOR: I would have thought so, Commissioner.

PN351

THE COMMISSIONER: And you both have a say and ultimately if you don't agree you then both put a position on a paper somewhere the Commission could consider as to how it might assist you.

PN352

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner. We have concerns about what the company have said in this correspondence.

PN353

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what did you do when you got this? Nothing.

PN354

MR PRIOR: Well, I got this after our meeting - well, I got this on the 12th. We had our meeting on the 11th.

PN355

THE COMMISSIONER: Of January.

PN356

MR PRIOR: Sorry, February, Commissioner.

PN357

THE COMMISSIONER: February.

PN358

MR PRIOR: Sorry. We had a meeting on Tuesday in response to the correspondence of Monday.

PN359

THE COMMISSIONER: This is 10 February. Yes.

PN360

MR PRIOR: This document was faxed - well, I didn't get this document until yesterday and our concern was that if this is the formal response - well, this is the only formal response that I've received in a round about fashion from the company in relation to the review. And we've got some concerns about the content of this correspondence based on the competitive tendering process.

PN361

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you know, if you sit on your hands long enough you will get a letter like this from somebody. You just sit back and do nothing.

PN362

MR PRIOR: Well, Commissioner, we anticipated that we would get some formal correspondence from the company before coming here today.

PN363

THE COMMISSIONER: But when did you actually sit down and talk about what the company wanted and what you wanted and then try and draw from that what the review had actually revealed? When was that done?

PN364

MR PRIOR: Well, the meeting that we had on Tuesday covered that eventuality.

PN365

THE COMMISSIONER: With who? You had a meeting on Tuesday with who?

PN366

MR PRIOR: Well, this was a meeting with delegates internally.

PN367

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, when did you meet with Qantas?

PN368

MR PRIOR: From my understanding - - -

PN369

THE COMMISSIONER: Because a review that's being conducted where you've got participation in it involves both parties. You both have a say. When did all that happen? That didn't happen.

PN370

MR PRIOR: Well, I understand that happened on the 17th, 20th and the 30th between delegates and Qantas. We effectively have not received an official notification to say what the outcome was barring what's in this document. Because again unless there's correspondence that hasn't come to me I'm responding to this document as the outcome of the review in terms of what Qantas' position is. And - - -

PN371

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, it's - sorry to interrupt.

PN372

MR PRIOR: Yes.

PN373

MR YPINAZAR: The minutes have been circulated. The minutes - the draft minutes have been provided to the TWU. Can I also note too the TWU delegate who was nominated in the letter of the 13th, Mr Mark Walker, while Peter Paulos was currently - was on leave actually never turned up to the meetings. Scott Speed and Phil Scott did, however, as the Commission directed each party was to nominate its representative.

PN374

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, to conduct the review.

PN375

MR YPINAZAR: To conduct the review. The TWUs representative hasn't turned up to these which - and then Qantas has gone through - we've had a series of meetings. We've issued minutes after each of these meetings to make sure - to keep our workforce informed. The TWU has refused to distribute - they have disagreed with the distribution of memorandums and minutes. They have felt that - but they haven't provided anything going forward. They haven't provided a position statement of their own.

PN376

Qantas' position on this has been made clear all the way through. In terms of - in each of the meetings on the 17th, 21st and 30th Qantas has outlined its position very clearly. And we come back to the Commission after a month of doing that and a month of wanting to move forward and identify efficiencies and we come back to find that the TWU is saying, "Well, you know, two days ago we handed you a document" and sort of - and they didn't propose it as an offer two days ago. They handed over the document from 11 November saying, "We accept this". So that's the position that Qantas finds themselves in.

PN377

THE COMMISSIONER: What have you got to say about that, Mr Prior?

PN378

MR PRIOR: Well, Commissioner, I was at the meeting that was conducted with delegates and the concern was that they wanted to put that document back to the company to see if the company would implement it on the basis that they would support it. They asked for a response to that. I understand that rosters have been provided to Steve Coco. It's not a situation that we haven't provided rosters. And, Commissioner, in terms of a formal response to us I can only rely on the document dated 10 February. And if that is the company's position then we've got some concerns in relation to that document.

PN379

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, look, that can be the company's position but my view of that is, "So what?" That's not what this was all about. The proceedings weren't about Qantas writing you a letter. It was about you two sitting down and having a review of the problems that Qantas says they have incurred and to try and work towards overcoming it. I mean, you've both had a good old game of filibuster. Well, you have. I mean, you've got a representative that doesn't even turn up to the meetings.

PN380

MR PRIOR: I understand, Commissioner, but - - -

PN381

THE COMMISSIONER: You know, the game's up. You're going to have to do something positive rather than all this around and around the bush. It's been a complete waste of time. And your blokes get something they don't like so they take their marbles home. Well, I'm sorry, it's not going to work that way.

PN382

MR PRIOR: Well, Commissioner, I guess that leaves us in the position that today what we have from the company is a document dated 10 February and I understand as - - -

PN383

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm still saying "so what?" You know, Qantas can put what they like to you. I asked you people to go and do something and you haven't done it. It's as simple as that. They have put up propositions and what have you done? Nothing. I mean, if you're going to argue about what Qantas wants you've got to actually get it there and talk to them, put your points of view and express some points of view and document it so that when the review - I get a report of the review of what you've done I can then ascertain where you're both at and what might have merit and what might not.

PN384

I mean, this has just been a complete - I don't know what the best way to describe this is. Pathetic, I think, is the best way to describe it, to be quite honest with you. Your blokes had better understand you can't hide from this.

PN385

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner, and I don't believe that was the intention.

PN386

THE COMMISSIONER: Wel, what are you going to do?

PN387

MR PRIOR: Well, perhaps from what we're hearing again today the most productive thing to do would be for the parties to meet as soon as practicable to discuss the review.

PN388

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, like right now.

PN389

MR PRIOR: Certainly.

PN390

THE COMMISSIONER: You meet right now and you settle this. Get something done.

PN391

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner, we're happy to break into conference to explore that.

PN392

THE COMMISSIONER: You're going to do that. I'm going to adjourn now and when you people have had a talk and you've reached some ideas about your respective positions give my associate a ring and I will come back. On that basis I'll adjourn.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.58am]

RESUMED [12.25pm]

PN393

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, who would like to tell the Commission something? Mr Ypinazar?

PN394

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, the parties have each considered their positions and discussed. The parties have agreed that on 11 am Monday, the TWU will provide an official response to the roster. The TWU have acknowledged that they haven't provided an official response to this point. They will have their own suggested roster, also, with comments, a brief summary of their position on Qantas's roster.

PN395

From Qantas's position, this issue has been going on a long time. It needs to have it resolved by Friday of next week. We are prepared to work all through next week, negotiate with it. We don't see a great need for - any desire to have any more protracted sort of back and forth. We want to get this nutted out by Friday. There is a real need to have the issue with the three surplus employees that are costing at the BIT, at the international terminal, and we also want to have the other issue done by Friday.

PN396

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Prior?

PN397

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Commissioner. As my colleague has stated, next Monday at 11 am we will have a formal response in a roster document. The company have made it very clear today in terms of requests put previously and the review that they cannot elevate part-timers to full-time over full-time positions when a surplus exists. They have identified a surplus of three people at Brisbane International Terminal. That is of a concern to us. They've indicated that the roster they have put forward which, for simplicity's sake, they have identified as an 11/8 - that is 11 full-time gangs, 8 part-time gangs - has no redundancies and has the possibility of part-time leading hands. That, in principle, is rejected. It is most practical for us to put up rosters in answer to that next week.

PN398

And, Commissioner, in terms of our position coming back to the company, the roster they have put up, we just identified some simple problems, such things as the roster as contemplated currently contemplates one weekend in nine - - -

PN399

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't need the details.

PN400

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner - just a range of things that, in this current form, would be unworkable.

PN401

THE COMMISSIONER: So you have broken some ground. You are both now more aware of one another's respective positions.

PN402

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner.

PN403

THE COMMISSIONER: And you are going to try and resolve this next week?

PN404

MR PRIOR: The company has made it clear that they wish to resolve the issue by Friday next week.

PN405

THE COMMISSIONER: I said you are going to try to resolve this next week.

PN406

MR PRIOR: Indeed, Commissioner. I was just going to conclude by saying that it is our commitment to resolve the issue. Whether it can indeed be resolved by Friday, the discussions next week will tell us where we're going.

PN407

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is in the hands of the parties then.

PN408

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN409

MR YPINAZAR: Commissioner, if I may, one final - an issue has arisen over the ability of Qantas to transfer staff from the international terminal to the domestic terminal. It is Qantas's position that it has the ability to do this. This is within - as part of managing - - -

PN410

THE COMMISSIONER: What is the need?

PN411

MR YPINAZAR: Well, the need is we have identified the surplus at Brisbane International. We want to transfer - - -

PN412

THE COMMISSIONER: But isn't that part of what you're going to talk about next week?

PN413

MR YPINAZAR: It is. I would just like you to know that the TWU is questioning whether we have that ability. It is Qantas's strong position - - -

PN414

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is management prerogative, I guess, at some stage, but it is a question of whether it's reasonable to the employees concerned and that's the issue that might give rise to some issue between the parties but you guys have got to try and settle this next week. All right? So, in terms of the Commission's role, I'll simply adjourn this and give the parties leave to have the matter re-listed if that becomes further necessary because you're the people that have got to resolve this, not this Commission. Andrew, I see you're trying to give some instructions there on the side. What are you trying to tell him?

PN415

MR SEE: Sir, that's find the issue that we want to reinforce, though - is that this dispute was widened in terms of its scope and our client is still - - -

PN416

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that's what industrial disputes tend to do.

PN417

MR SEE: Our client is still interested in pressing the primary concern it came to this Commission with and that is the transfer of those surplus staff. Now, one month has passed and my client is no closer to effecting the transfer of those people and it's coming at a cost. Now, we just want to flag that with the Commission, that that is an issue that still does need to be addressed.

PN418

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, it's one I would hope you're going to address next week. Out of all this, all of the issues that are unresolved today need to be resolved. And that includes the issue that you've just raised.

PN419

MR SEE: It may be the case, though, sir, that the two issues do need to be pulled apart at some stage because they may assume different characteristics as the negotiation process takes place.

PN420

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that's fine but, I mean, I would thought that the sensible thing to do is to sit down, examine your respective positions, see what you can reach without having to resort to further applications to the Commission or the TWU having to impose bans and so forth. I don't think that does anybody any good.

PN421

MR SEE: No, sir.

PN422

THE COMMISSIONER: So, as I've said, I'll adjourn the matter. I'll give the parties leave to have the matter re-listed if that becomes further necessary but I'd suggest to you both that you really put your noses down and try and settle this. I'm sure you don't want to come back here and get a tongue lashing from me again. On that basis, I'll adjourn these proceedings.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [12.31pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #QANTAS1 LETTER DATED 09/01/2003 FROM QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED TO TWU PN262
EXHIBIT #TWU2 LETTER DATED 13/01/2003 FROM TWU TO QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED PN267