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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT1559
A 6.3.03
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER WHELAN
AG2002/5715
APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATION
OF AGREEMENT
Application under section 170LK of the Act
by Epona Pty Ltd for certification of EPONA
Enterprise Agreement 2002-2005
Application for determination of designated
award pursuant to section 170XF
MELBOURNE
10.25 AM, THURSDAY, 6 FEBRUARY 2003
Continued from 4.12.02
PN324
THE COMMISSIONER: Good morning. I think that we were going to proceed with evidence today and I think that we were to start with the union's evidence and I understand the company has now provided further statements which we will then proceed to deal with.
PN325
MR MOLNAR: Commissioner, could I just raise a few initial issues, if I may, Commissioner.
PN326
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN327
MR MOLNAR: The first one I suppose is to seek per the usual order relating to witnesses in the Court room. I understand there is a number of witnesses here on behalf of the TCFUA and Mr Pham.
PN328
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Farouque?
PN329
MR FAROUQUE: Commissioner, I don't have any objection to witnesses out of Court subject to one matter and we propose to rely on the short statement of Ms Vivienne Wiles.
PN330
THE COMMISSIONER: Who is instructing you?
PN331
MR FAROUQUE: Who is instructing and it is quite a discrete point and I don't think any material, you know, issue will arise in relation to that but subject to that I have no objection to Ms Peterson, who is the other witness - - -
PN332
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN333
MR FAROUQUE: - - - to be out of Court while Mr Pham gives his evidence.
PN334
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I think that is - yes, Mr Molnar.
PN335
MR MOLNAR: Thank you, your Honour. The other matter I wanted to raise Commission is that when we were here last time an award did not apply to Epona Pty Ltd. In the meantime an award has been made against Epona Pty Ltd and if I could up the Clothing Industry Roping-in Number 2 Award - - -
PN336
THE COMMISSIONER: Right.
PN337
MR MOLNAR: - - - that was made by Commissioner Cargill on 20 December 2002. The effect of that award is that the orders binding on the TCFUA and Epona Pty Ltd, it applies the provisions of a Clothing Trades Award 1999 and it states that it is operative from the first pay period commencing on or after 3 January 2003. If I can just hand it up - - -
PN338
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Molnar. Yes, I think I - at the time I think you indicated that there were proceedings on foot but - - -
PN339
MR MOLNAR: Yes. To some extent I suppose that it makes your determination in relation to a - - -
PN340
THE COMMISSIONER: Superfluous .
PN341
MR MOLNAR: Superfluous, Commissioner.
PN342
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes.
PN343
MR FAROUQUE: Not that any determination of your submission is superfluous, Commissioner.
PN344
MR MOLNAR: No.
PN345
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN346
MR MOLNAR: The final matter I wish to raise, Commissioner, is that following the hearing the last time it became immediately apparent to myself that there area number of sort of issues and particulars which ought to have been raised by the TCFUA and Mr Pham in relation to the outline of submissions. Mr Farouque got up last time, gave a - what I think was understood at the time as being an outline of argument. One of the sections that he raised was 170LU.
PN347
THE COMMISSIONER: That is right, yes.
PN348
MR MOLNAR: And I think in particular he means what is - the reference there is 170LU(3) which as you would be aware, Commissioner, is a section relating to breaches of part XA.
PN349
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN350
MR MOLNAR: And it means, Commissioner, that if you are of the view that the employer in this case, has breached part XA then you can refuse to certify this agreement.
PN351
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN352
MR MOLNAR: So because we didn't have any particulars of what that - what his supposed breach was and it was quite apparent from what Mr Farouque said last time and the witness statements of the TCFUA and Mr Pham, we wrote to Mr Farouque on 7 January, and if I could just hand up a copy of that letter.
PN353
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN354
PN355
MR MOLNAR: Just excuse me, Commissioner.
PN356
THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right, Mr Molnar. Mr Molnar.
PN357
MR MOLNAR: In that letter I confirmed the course that the applicant would provide any witness statements on 14 January. I also indicated that in relation to this proceeding and for us to have proper notices, we would appreciate receiving no later than 31 January 2003 any written submissions - - -
PN358
THE COMMISSIONER: In relation to LU.
PN359
MR MOLNAR: - - - in relation to the matter. I particularly raised the issue of the section L(3).
PN360
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN361
MR MOLNAR: And I stated in the letter:
PN362
The Freedom of Association provisions are complex and the applicant should be given prior notice of such particular purported pleas with witness statements. For example, what conduct under section 298K(1) and what prohibited reasons under section 298L(1) does your client rely upon.
PN363
And then I therefore sort of requested a response by 17 January 2003. I didn't receive any response to that Commissioner, so I proceeded to write another letter to Mr Farouque, and if I could hand that up, Commissioner, a copy of that.
PN364
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN365
MR MOLNAR: Sorry, it was another letter. I apologise that I don't have a copy of this Commissioner, but I will read out the letter.
PN366
THE COMMISSIONER: Did you provide - did you send a copy to the Commission of that?
PN367
MR MOLNAR: I did, Commissioner.
PN368
THE COMMISSIONER: I may have it on the file.
PN369
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN370
THE COMMISSIONER: Let me just have a look.
PN371
MR MOLNAR: Thanks. And I stated in that letter:
PN372
We had suggested you write to us no later than 17 January 2003 particulars of the Freedom of Association submissions breaches upon which you rely in accordance with section 170LU. No particulars have been provided. As we stated to you in our letter dated 7 January 2003 the particulars impact on the evidence and the submissions be made by our client. No doubt at some stage you will provide these particulars and it may therefore be necessary for us to make further submissions and provide clear evidence.
PN373
And the purpose of the letter was to put Mr Farouque on notice that further evidence and submissions may be required depending on the particulars that will eventually be provided.
PN374
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN375
MR MOLNAR: Commissioner, the failure to provide particulars in relation to breach of the part XA is no small matter for a number of reasons. The first reason is that part XA is quite a complicated section. It - there are a number of subsections under 298K(1), there are a number of further subsections under 298L, we don't know what other particular matters that Mr Farouque is relying upon. Is he relying also on 298M? It appears that he is but we don't know. The second matters as to why this is of such importance is because these sections have been extensively litigated at the Federal Court, the Full Federal Court and the High Court. There is a multiplicity of cases on this.
PN376
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN377
MR MOLNAR: Not all the decisions agree with one another and it is very, very difficult for us to know with precision precisely what case Mr Farouque is making. The third matter, I suppose goes to the gravity of the breach of the Freedom of Association. In the Federal Court the approach has been very much one in terms of standard of proof that applicants in that Court seeking orders in relation to part XA need to establish their evidence to the Brigenshaw standard and if I could just hand up a case, if that is of assistance to you, Commissioner. It is a case - - -
PN378
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN379
MR MOLNAR: - - - called - Federal Court case called the Employment Advocate v the National Union of Workers and it was a case brought in relation to breaches of part XA and if I could just take you to paragraph 25 where the Court discusses an issue of the standard of proof and indeed his Honour in that case sets up the relevant passage in paragraph 26 in Brigenshaw v Brigenshaw and just - - -
PN380
THE COMMISSIONER: One that we would all be particularly familiar with, I am sure.
PN381
MR MOLNAR: And I won't read it out again, Commissioner.
PN382
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN383
MR MOLNAR: But what he then goes on to say is that - he refers in paragraph 29 to Geraldton Port of Authority where - and in reference to applying the Brigenshaw standard and he also then talks about, you know, the fact that this then has been applied in a number of these sorts of cases and then he goes on to say that:
PN384
The Court is, in any event, bound by section 142 of the Evidence Act and to take into account -
PN385
this is at the end of paragraph 29 -
PN386
take into account the nature of the course of action, the nature and the subject matter of the proceeding and the gravity of the matter alleged in determining whether it is reasonably satisfied tha the matter has been proved.
PN387
I will just hand up to you for your assistance a case that his Honour mentions in paragraph 29 because it just has also a useful reference to a matter which I think is quite relevant, and the case I am handing up is Maritime Union of Australia v Geraldton - - -
PN388
THE COMMISSIONER: Geraldton Port Authority.
PN389
MR MOLNAR: - - - Port Authority which is a decision of the Federal Court. Now if I could just take you to paragraph commencing - the paragraph commencing 200 where again the issue of the Brigenshaw test is discussed. And if I could just take you to, and again, it is in the context of, you know, part XA but if I could just take you to paragraph 206 and the last sentence that his Honour has in that thing - in that paragraph, he says:
PN390
Adverse findings against the respondents would raise an event of grave moral delinquency -
PN391
in relation to the Brigenshaw. So Brigenshaw is about, sort of, cases involving where there is a grave moral delinquency. Now what, as I understand it, the TCFUA and Mr Pham are asking you to do is make findings in relation to part XA. I accept that it is in the context of the certification of agreement, I accept that the consequences of that - any such finding you make is not a penal in character and it may be that Mr Farouque seeks to distinguish the two provisions on that basis, but what I say is this: that these breaches - if there were findings in relation Freedom of Association provisions that would have, I think, a - it would involve issues of grave moral delinquency, they area very great matters in relation to the matters that are covered under part XA.
PN392
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN393
MR MOLNAR: And they are serious, they are grave and in my submissions, it would need to be proved to a standard of proof that is referred to under the Brigenshaw test. And that should also been seen in the context of this, Commissioner, that the last time we were here there were media reports in relation to the proceeding, and I am not saying that either the TCFUA or Mr Pham had anything to do with those media reports, but there were media reports to the effect that my client was in some way discriminating against unions or had sort of an anti-award approach, any such findings in relation to Freedom of Association that would be made would carry against my client that sort of stigma as they are matters as the Court refers to in Brigenshaw as "a grave moral delinquency". The other aspect, I suppose, is that any evidence that is brought in this proceeding may of course be evidence - - -
PN394
THE COMMISSIONER: In other proceedings.
PN395
MR MOLNAR: - - - in other proceedings and it puts my client, in the absence of any proper particularisation by the other side, it puts my client at great risk in terms of these matters. Now we have done our best, we have tried to put them on notice in terms of, you know, giving us the particulars so that we could prepare for today and for any sort of submissions and I think we are disadvantaged. What I suggest is this, Commissioner. I don't want to delay today, I would suggest that we get through the evidence today and I think we can do that today.
PN396
I would then suggest that Mr - the TCFUA and Mr Pham provide the written particulars of what the allegations are in relation to the - section 170LU(3) so that we can have a look at that and look at the evidence and so that we are properly prepared for any such hearing, and I also suggest that they make sort of written submissions in relation to any other matters today and perhaps they should have a week to do that and we could respond to those matters within a week with the qualification that if we felt that we ought to be able to give further evidence, once we are - we have the particulars that we ought to be able to do so.
PN397
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Molnar. Mr Farouque.
PN398
MR FAROUQUE: Commission, we, in relation to this issue, we don't propose to rely on any further evidence than that which has already been filed in the statement of Mr Pham and the statement of Ms Peterson. That is in relation to the LU issue. I think Mr Molnar has responded to the material parts of those statements in statements that he has filed and we don't see any prejudice which arises to the respondent in relation to this matter and if he wants me to particularise the particular sections that we rely on, I can tell him.
PN399
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN400
MR FAROUQUE: The evidence that we rely on relation to that allegation that we made and Mr Molnar didn't identify any difficulty at the time, was the evidence that we filed in December.
PN401
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN402
MR FAROUQUE: There was no, in my submission, no great or grave prejudice to the respondent which flows. I can simply put it in that sense and say that there is no necessity for the matter to be adjourned, I agree, and I understand that the Commission has set aside two days, we will be pleased to finish the matter within those days by way of oral argument, if necessary.
PN403
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well I think that we will deal with the evidence and then I will consider what Mr Molnar has put to me in relation to the question of written submissions but it may be that the appropriate way to deal with this issue is for you to provide your written submissions as to why you say the evidence provides sufficient basis for that sort of a finding and then Mr Molnar is given the opportunity to respond to that.
PN404
MR MOLNAR: If the Commission pleases. I think that is the appropriate way to go but I must say that what Mr Farouque says is no answer to my request to know what are the particular provisions under section 298K and 298L - - -
PN405
THE COMMISSIONER: It is you he is relying on.
PN406
MR MOLNAR: - - - that he is relying upon.
PN407
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN408
MR MOLNAR: And I don't think - I think it puts - we are gravely prejudiced by it but mainly if Mr Farouque could just simply tell us, you know, what those particular sections are so I can get proper instructions. The cases in relation to the Freedom of Association turn on very small differences and we will obviously need to make submissions relating to those cases. We don't know what other particular sections he is relying upon. We don't know which cases even to look at properly.
PN409
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN410
MR MOLNAR: It has, you know, failure to do so has gravely - has, in my submission, prejudiced us. The only other thing I wish to mention, Commissioner, is that at 5 o'clock we received some further statements from the TCFUA being - yesterday, a statement of Vivienne Wiles, being a supplementary statement of Dot Peterson and a supplementary statement of Mr Pham. We also received a very extensive document that set out what the TCFUA and Mr Pham's analysis was on the no-disadvantage test, it is a very extensive document. We also received what appears to be a Chinese - an English translation of notice given to employees under 170LK(4) notice that had been done by a particular translation service.
PN411
We also received what appears to the Chinese translation of the proposed Epona Agreement, together with the Vietnamese translation of the proposed Epona Agreement. And we received that all yesterday at 5 pm. Now, whilst I don't think there are extra issues arising from those supplementary statements and I think we can proceed with them, I am concerned about the English translation of the Chinese section of the 170LK notice and I will be making submissions in relation to that when that is adduced.
[10.43am]
PN412
And obviously I am going to need time to consider properly the very extensive document which the TCFUA and Mr Pham have presented in relation to their analysis of the no disadvantage test. I should point out also that I have, this morning - - -
PN413
THE COMMISSIONER: I haven't got any of those, I must say, myself, at this stage.
PN414
MR MOLNAR: I should also point out, this morning, I have given a debut witness statement to Mr Farouque by a Maria Christopolous. Maria Christopolous is one of the employees that was involved in the count on 22 October 2002. She is referred to in the statements of Sonia Bettega and Belen Remon, as the person who did so, and it is a very short statement and just deals with that one discrete issue as to the count.
PN415
THE COMMISSIONER: Of the count. Yes.
PN416
MR MOLNAR: Exactly.
PN417
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think, Mr Molnar, the way that I will proceed with this is I will proceed to hear the evidence and to accept any further written statements and give the parties the capacity to cross-examine on those. In relation to written documentation that you may have only just received, I think that is in the same category as the submissions in relation to particular parts of the Act because that obviously forms the basis for the submission in relation to the no disadvantage test issue, and I will certainly be giving you time for responses to that. But what I intended - as a priority what I intend to try and deal with, while we have got the people and the translators, is the evidence. All right.
PN418
MR FAROUQUE: If the Commission pleases - - -
PN419
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Farouque.
PN420
MR MOLNAR: With respect to Mr Farouque. I understand he is going to call Mr Pham. We have a number of objections to the witness statement of Mr Pham - - -
PN421
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN422
MR MOLNAR: - - - they go to two issues; the issue of relevancy and the issue of hearsay evidence. And it might be appropriate to deal with that issue, now.
PN423
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. At this stage I think we are dealing with the original statement. I don't have a copy of any supplementary statement.
PN424
MR MOLNAR: I can hand up a copy of the supplementary statement. Of course I will tender - - -
PN425
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well if there are issues in relation to the supplementary statement, I will deal with them altogether, if that is the case or are the issues - - -
PN426
MR MOLNAR: We don't have any objections with the supplementary statement.
PN427
THE COMMISSIONER: With the supplementary statement. All right, then. Thank you.
PN428
MR MOLNAR: If I could just take you to the proposed statement of Mr Pham.
PN429
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN430
MR MOLNAR: And if I could take you, first of all, to paragraph 9 - paragraph 8. In this paragraph it confirms that he joined the union on about 22 August 2001. And he apparently tells other workers that he joins the union. Then in paragraph 9 he says:
PN431
A short time after I joined the union -
PN432
he has a conversation with a person who he says is "Killy". We will say that the correct name is Kinny and that it is a Mr Khien Trau. But putting that aside for the minute, our objection to this statement is that - is on the issue of relevancy. Section - and I presume, I don't know, I presume that Mr Farouque is stating that this is evidence of a breach in some way of the freedom of association provisions. Now, he is relying upon 170LU(3). What 170LU(3) is concerned with, it is concerned with negotiations relating to the agreement.
PN433
The conversation that occurs in 9, occurs in 10, that occurs in 11, are all conversations that have nothing to do with the negotiations of an agreement. They appear to all pre-date any commencement of negotiations for an agreement and therefore, even if they are true they can't be relevant for the purposes of 170LU(3). Excuse me. I am instructed that the discussions in relation to negotiation of agreements that commenced in sort of late 2002, around about September. The way this reads is that these took conversations took place in 2001 or maybe even early 2002.
PN434
Paragraph 11 isn't even very clear. So we say that they can't form the basis of any matter that is relevant for your purposes here, today, Commissioner. They may well be relevant for any sort of, you know, action under part 10(a) which the TCFUA or Mr Pham wish to take, but they can't be relevant today because it has to be in relation to negotiations of an agreement. In relation to paragraph 13; we object to this because it refers to effectively hearsay. The second sentence says:
PN435
Other workers told me that Killy said to them that if they didn't agree to the agreement and they would not get overtime and they would get special pressure.
PN436
Now I would have to say it is vague and uncertain as to what that means, but he is really relying upon what other people have said to him, he doesn't identify the name, source of anything like that and we would say that that ought not be admitted as evidence, it being hearsay evidence. If those workers, of course, wish to come and give evidence and to be cross-examined in the usual way, then, of course, that is their choice. In relation - the same sort of argument could be made in relation to 14, although again it is very vague and uncertain:
PN437
I thought Killy would approach workers. She said that they would not get overtime or get sacked if they joined the union.
PN438
And I suppose from that he is relying upon what he has seen.
PN439
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN440
MR MOLNAR: In relation to paragraph 20, in the middle of that paragraph it has got the statement:
PN441
During the vote, one Vietnamese worker who does not speak English and who was standing next to me, whispered and asked me what Sonia was saying. I whispered to her what Sonia's constructions on the voting were.
PN442
But look, again, it is hearsay evidence and we would say that it ought not be admitted.
PN443
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Farouque.
PN444
MR FAROUQUE: Commissioner, I want to address paragraph 20, first. And clearly it is not hearsay evidence. That is Mr Pham giving, well proposing to give evidence about a matter which he witnessed. The fact that it is somebody else - - -
PN445
THE COMMISSIONER: Speaking to him.
PN446
MR FAROUQUE: - - - speaking to him, doesn't render that material hearsay. That person is not - - -
PN447
THE COMMISSIONER: No.
PN448
MR FAROUQUE: - - - Mr Pham is not giving evidence about what somebody else - - -
PN449
THE COMMISSIONER: Said to somebody else - - -
PN450
MR FAROUQUE: - - - witnessed.
PN451
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - yes.
PN452
MR FAROUQUE: That is right. So that is not hearsay and certainly no objection is well founded there. On the question of hearsay, of course, it is well established that this Commission is not bound by the rules of evidence. Any questions of hearsay evidence goes to a matter of weight to be accorded to that evidence and that matter can be determined and dealt with by the Commission at the - when making its decision, as to the weight to accord that evidence. It may be that the Commission accords that evidence not a considerable amount of weight or the Commission may find that it is evidence which it will accord weight.
PN453
So, on the question of hearsay, we say simply this; that it is a matter for the Commission to accord that evidence the weight that it deserves and no evidentiary exclusion should necessarily apply. And so that is what we say about paragraph 13. In relation to the matters referred to by my learned friend about paragraphs 9 and 11, indeed they occurred - - -
PN454
THE COMMISSIONER: Nine to 11. I think he was including 10 as well.
PN455
MR FAROUQUE: Sorry. Sorry, 9 - - -
PN456
THE COMMISSIONER: 10 and 11.
PN457
MR FAROUQUE: - - - 10 and 11. Yes. I was referring to 9, yes, to paragraphs 11. We say these events constitute the material background to the circumstances in which the agreement was negotiated. It throws light on the state of mind of a key figure on the part of the company and her state of mind in respect of the involvement of the union. And in that respect, we say, it is relevant context and background material which is directly relevant to this proceeding.
PN458
THE COMMISSIONER: But section 170LU(3) whatever the issues that are raised in paragraph 9, 10 and 11, section 170LU(3) is very specific, it only refers to action which would contravene part 10(a) that is in connection with the negotiation of the agreement. Now this - whether this happened or didn't happen is not for me to make any finding on or for me, in my view, to consider because it doesn't occur in the connection with the negotiation of the agreement. It may have occurred or it may not have occurred and it may give rise to a course of action by the union, under some other proceedings - provisions of the Act, but it is not in connection with the negotiation of the agreement.
PN459
The matters that are contained in paragraphs 12 to 14 are clearly matters relevant to the negotiation of the agreement because they refer specifically to that. But the general attitude towards - if what you are saying was that those paragraphs 9, 10 and 11, show a general attitude towards the union, so what. It is only - - -
PN460
MR FAROUQUE: Well, it - - -
PN461
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - in connection with the negotiation of the agreement that I have to take into account.
PN462
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, Commissioner, but we say that it provides some of the relevant evidentiary context and background material to the conduct of the employee in question, of when the agreement was being negotiated. And in that sense it is relevant to the primary issue about, in connection with the negotiation of the agreement. Because we say that, in respect to the conduct referred to in the relevant paragraphs, inferences may be drawn about her state of mind and attitude towards the union which bears on the question as to her conduct on subsequent occasions. And in that sense, it is, in my submission, relevant material. I will press the application that that evidence be admitted.
PN463
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, I am not prepared to admit the evidence in paragraphs 9 to 11. I am prepared to admit the evidence in paragraph 13 and I agree with you that the evidence in paragraph 20 is not contrary to the evidentiary rules in relation to hearsay, as he is reporting a conversation that he had, himself, with somebody else. And the statement will then be dealt with.
PN464
MR MOLNAR: If the Commission pleases, Commissioner, what is your position with paragraph 13?
PN465
THE COMMISSIONER: It is in. Right. Call Mr Pham.
PN466
PN467
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Pham, you can be seated. And Mr Tran, if you wish, you can sit next to him. And, Mr Pham, in the witness box, if you sit there and if you wish you can be seated in the seat there.
PN468
THE INTERPRETER: I stand - - -
PN469
THE COMMISSIONER: If you prefer to stand, that is fine.
PN470
MR FAROUQUE: If the Commission pleases. Commissioner, I propose to call this evidence by tendering the statement of Mr Pham and have the interpreter read portions of the evidence which aren't - haven't been excluded - - -
PN471
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN472
MR FAROUQUE: - - - to Mr Pham and have him confirm the contents. If that is an appropriate course then I will undertake that course.
PN473
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN474
MR FAROUQUE: Mr Pham have you made a - can you state your full name for the Commission?
PN475
THE WITNESS: My name is Cam Ngoc Pham.
**** XN MR FAROUQUE
PN476
MR FAROUQUE: And your occupation?
PN477
THE WITNESS: Machinist.
PN478
MR FAROUQUE: Mr Pham, and your address?
PN479
THE WITNESS: 49 Claremont Crescent.
PN480
MR FAROUQUE: Mr Pham, have you made two statements in this matter?
PN481
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
PN482
MR FAROUQUE: I want to show you these documents, Mr Pham. Mr Pham if you could just look at that statement.
PN483
THE WITNESS: ..... one here.
PN484
MR FAROUQUE: The first document. I think the witness is holding the statement filed in the earlier December proceedings, Commissioner.
PN485
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN486
MR FAROUQUE: Mr Pham, is that the statement that you have made in this matter?
PN487
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** XN MR FAROUQUE
PN488
MR FAROUQUE: Now, perhaps, Commissioner, I could have the interpreter read the statement to him in Vietnamese, at this stage?
PN489
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, with the exclusion of those particular paragraphs?
PN490
MR FAROUQUE: That is right.
PN491
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Could you read the statement to Mr Pham, in Vietnamese. In doing so, Mr Tran, could you exclude the paragraphs numbered 9, 10 and 11.
PN492
THE INTERPRETER: Where shall I start from, paragraph 1?
PN493
THE COMMISSIONER: Start from paragraph 1, yes.
PN494
THE INTERPRETER: So where shall I stop? Until paragraph 21?
PN495
THE COMMISSIONER: You go through - - -
PN496
THE INTERPRETER: I am up to 15, now, but I just want to know where I should stop?
PN497
THE COMMISSIONER: You go right through to paragraph 21.
[11.25am]
PN498
MR FAROUQUE: Commissioner, there are just a couple of other matters that I just intend to lead and will take a short period.
**** XN MR FAROUQUE
PN499
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, do you want to deal with the supplementary statement at this stage because - - -
PN500
MR FAROUQUE: I want to just clarify a few matters in this statement between I dealt with the supplementary statement and that might be the best course.
PN501
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly.
PN502
MR FAROUQUE: Mr Pham, I want to take you to paragraph 12 of your statement. Mr Pham is there anything in paragraph 12 of your statement that you would like to change?
PN503
THE INTERPRETER: I want to cross out one sentence, that is:
PN504
The meetings were not interpreted into English and Vietnamese.
PN505
MR FAROUQUE: I think that should read "Chinese and Vietnamese."
PN506
THE INTERPRETER: Chinese and Vietnamese.
PN507
MR FAROUQUE: Mr Pham, subject to that change, is the statement that has been translated to you by the interpreter, is that true and correct?
PN508
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN509
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want the statement marked at this stage, Mr Farouque?
**** XN MR FAROUQUE
PN510
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, Commissioner. I just want to take the witness, just for a short moment, to exhibit A of his statement. Mr Pham, I wonder if you could tell me - that exhibit A to your statement, if you could turn to that. It is the Vietnamese notice. Mr Pham, I wonder if you could tell the Commission, was there anything attached to that notice?
PN511
THE INTERPRETER: There is nothing else except the notice in Vietnamese.
PN512
MR FAROUQUE: Right. Okay. When you received that notice from Killy, was there anything attached to that notice?
PN513
THE INTERPRETER: Nothing else, just one notice. That is all.
PN514
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Mr Pham, I want to take you to exhibit B of your statement.
PN515
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN516
MR MOLNAR: That is the English notice. When you were given that English notice by the other worker was there anything attached to that notice?
PN517
THE INTERPRETER: Nothing else.
PN518
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Mr Pham, I just want to show you this document. Mr Pham, I have just handed you a document, can you identify what that document is?
PN519
THE INTERPRETER: Well, this is the agreement from Epona that was translated into Vietnamese.
**** XN MR FAROUQUE
PN520
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And, Mr Pham, do you recall when you received - or did you receive a copy of that agreement, that Vietnamese translation?
PN521
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN522
MR FAROUQUE: When did you receive a copy of that Vietnamese translation?
PN523
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I don't remember exactly the day but just briefly before the voting took place.
PN524
MR FAROUQUE: All right. Okay. I will tender those documents in serial, Commissioner, but I will take the witness to his supplementary statement. Mr Pham, I wonder if I could hand you - I have handed another statement there, that is a one-page statement. I wonder whether the interpreter has a copy of that statement.
PN525
THE INTERPRETER: I - I don't.
PN526
MR FAROUQUE: I think, Commissioner, I handed up a copy earlier.
PN527
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I do have that. Yes.
PN528
MR FAROUQUE: I wonder whether the interpreter could read that statement to the witness. Mr Pham, are the contents of that statement, that has been read to you just a moment ago, is that true and correct?
PN529
THE INTERPRETER: That - that is the truth.
**** XN MR FAROUQUE
PN530
MR FAROUQUE: Commissioner, I tender those documents. It might be convenient to mark them serially at this stage.
PN531
PN532
MR FAROUQUE: If the Commission pleases, that is the evidence we propose to call for Mr Pham.
PN533
PN534
MR MOLNAR: Mr Pham, do you agree that today you are giving evidence through a Vietnamese interpreter?
PN535
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN536
MR MOLNAR: Mr Pham, do you agree that you do understand fully the English language in its spoken form, speaking form, without any assistance of a Vietnamese interpreter?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN537
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I can manage to communicate with my basic English, like in a normal meeting I can manage to understand everything.
PN538
MR MOLNAR: Do you understand that is said to you in English?
PN539
THE INTERPRETER: Well, generally at the meeting at the workplace and relating to my work I could understand everything but at Court it is just a different matter, other things that I cannot understand. That is why I need an interpreter.
PN540
MR MOLNAR: Do you understand fully the English language in its written form, without the assistance of a Vietnamese interpreter?
PN541
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I cannot comprehend fully the written form that is why I need someone to assist me with the translating. Well, even with the agreement that was translated into Vietnamese language, I - there are parts or sections that I could not understand because of the translation.
PN542
MR MOLNAR: Mr Pham, you have said in your statement that there are a number of workers from East Timor, Japan, Indonesia, India and Africa. Is that correct?
PN543
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN544
MR MOLNAR: Okay. If I said to you that there were about East Timor workers would you disagree with that?
PN545
THE INTERPRETER: I do not understand what you are trying to say.
[11.40am]
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN546
MR MOLNAR: Okay. I will put it in these - - -
PN547
THE COMMISSIONER: Put it to him straight, are there three?
PN548
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Did you not - thereupon, did you not - - -
PN549
THE COMMISSIONER: I know the difficulty you have got.
PN550
MR MOLNAR: No.
PN551
THE COMMISSIONER: But it is always - - -
PN552
MR MOLNAR: Are there three East Timor workers - about three East Timor workers where you work?
PN553
THE INTERPRETER: Well, yes, at the moment I know a couple and one more person who came from East Timor and work at the factory.
PN554
MR MOLNAR: If I said to you that one of those East Timor workers can both speak and read English well, would you disagree with that?
PN555
THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat that question?
PN556
MR MOLNAR: Yes, certainly. If I said to you that one of those East Timor workers can both read and speak English well, would you disagree with that?
PN557
THE INTERPRETER: What do you mean when you said disagree with your point?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN558
MR MOLNAR: One of those East Timor workers can both read and speak English well; isn't that right?
PN559
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I am not sure about that because they work at the different section, so I am not sure.
PN560
MR MOLNAR: Two of those East Timor workers are able to speak Chinese; isn't that correct?
PN561
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I believe all three can speak Chinese and one of them who came to work in my section and that person wasn't sure what to do and that person asked me for instruction. I helped her with the instruction. That was in - all in English.
PN562
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Thank you. If I - let me put it in these terms. There are about three Japanese workers where you work; isn't that right?
PN563
THE INTERPRETER: When I first start working there I saw about six or seven but it seemed to me that they - some of them were tourists who came to work for a short period of time, but now I can see around three people there.
PN564
MR MOLNAR: All those Japanese workers speak English, don't they?
PN565
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN566
MR MOLNAR: Thank you. Mr Pham, there are about two Indian workers where you work; isn't that right?
PN567
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, India?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN568
MR MOLNAR: Indian workers where you work; isn't that right?
PN569
THE INTERPRETER: I only know one lady who is Indian.
PN570
MR MOLNAR: The one Indian lady can understand English, isn't that right?
PN571
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN572
MR MOLNAR: Yes. There are in fact no Indonesian workers where you work; isn't that right?
PN573
THE INTERPRETER: Well, there were two Indonesian workers in the past but they - after they joined the union there was some sort of trouble for them so they stopped working there.
PN574
MR MOLNAR: And when did they stop - - -
PN575
THE INTERPRETER: One of them is called Santos.
PN576
MR MOLNAR: When did they stop working?
PN577
THE INTERPRETER: I do not remember exactly but just before the voting day.
PN578
MR MOLNAR: There are about five African workers there; isn't that correct?
PN579
THE INTERPRETER: I do not know the exact number but probably about five or six.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN580
MR MOLNAR: Of those African workers there is - two of them are brother and sister; isn't that right?
PN581
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN582
MR MOLNAR: Thank you. The brother can speak English - can understand English; isn't that correct?
PN583
THE INTERPRETER: Well, he can speak but not very fluently, because some time I couldn't understand him.
PN584
MR MOLNAR: All right. The sister doesn't understand English very well; isn't that correct?
PN585
THE INTERPRETER: I have no contact with the sister so I am not sure about that.
PN586
MR MOLNAR: Okay. So you wouldn't disagree with me if I said to you that the brother translates for the sister from English to African? I am not sure whether that is a - - -
PN587
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't think you find there is any such language.
PN588
MR MOLNAR: There is Africana but - - -
PN589
THE COMMISSIONER: And I doubt that they would be speaking Africana, but there is no such language.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN590
MR MOLNAR: Yes, okay.
PN591
THE COMMISSIONER: Whatever the language is that they speak.
PN592
MR MOLNAR: Whatever the language is, yes. I will rephrase that, Commissioner. You wouldn't disagree with me if I said to you that the brother translates from English into the language that the sister understands?
PN593
THE INTERPRETER: Well, that is their own business. I don't know.
PN594
MR MOLNAR: Okay.
PN595
THE INTERPRETER: But in my own opinion I don't think the brother has the ability to do the interpreting for the sister.
PN596
MR MOLNAR: Other than the brother and the sister, the other African workers can understand English; isn't that correct?
PN597
THE INTERPRETER: I believe so.
PN598
MR MOLNAR: Okay, thank you. In paragraph 7 of your statement you refer to a person called Killy; is that correct?
PN599
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, can you say it again?
PN600
MR MOLNAR: In paragraph 7 of your statement you refer to a person called Killy; is that correct?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN601
THE INTERPRETER: That is right.
PN602
MR MOLNAR: Okay.
PN603
THE INTERPRETER: I only know that person as Killy.
PN604
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Would you disagree with me if I said that her nickname where you work is in fact Kinny - K-i-n-n-y?
PN605
THE INTERPRETER: K-i - - -
PN606
MR MOLNAR: n-n-y.
PN607
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I do not really know what the name is. I can only make up that name by - through the sound that I heard.
PN608
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN609
THE INTERPRETER: Because where somebody is calling her Killy and I call her Killy and she just spoke to me. That is how it happened.
PN610
MR MOLNAR: Okay. But if I told you that her actual name was Khien Trau, K-h-i-e-n, first word, Trau T-r-a-u; you wouldn't disagree with that, would you?
PN611
THE INTERPRETER: I cannot remember the spelling of the name.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN612
MR MOLNAR: I will go through it more slowly for you. If I said to you that the person - if I said to you that Killy's actual name was Khien Trau, spelt K-h-i-e-n, first word; second word, Trau, T-r-a-u, you wouldn't disagree with me?
PN613
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know her real name.
PN614
MR MOLNAR: Okay.
PN615
THE INTERPRETER: I haven't seen her name in any of the document or the paper work.
PN616
MR MOLNAR: Thank you, Mr Pham.
PN617
THE INTERPRETER: I only communicate verbally at the workplace.
PN618
MR MOLNAR: Okay, thank you. The person you described as Killy is your supervisor; isn't that correct?
PN619
THE INTERPRETER: Well, that is right, that person was my supervisor for about six months and then another person called Simon.
PN620
MR MOLNAR: Who is Simon?
PN621
THE INTERPRETER: He is a person probably from another factory that belong to Epona and he was transferred to this factory.
PN622
MR MOLNAR: What is his role at Porter Street, Prahran?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN623
THE INTERPRETER: I am not very sure because he came to the factory at different times, very irregular. But when he came to the factory it seemed to me that he has more authority than Killy.
PN624
MR MOLNAR: He is the boss at Porter Street, isn't he?
PN625
THE INTERPRETER: As a normal worker at the factory I only communicate with Killy.
PN626
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN627
THE INTERPRETER: So I am not sure about that man.
PN628
MR MOLNAR: But you wouldn't disagree if I said that Killy reports to Simon?
PN629
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, probably that is the case.
PN630
MR MOLNAR: Okay, thank you. Isn't it true that Killy also works on the machines?
PN631
THE INTERPRETER: Well, that only happened after the appearance of Simon. Before Simon came, Killy didn't work at the machine. She just look after other workers.
PN632
MR MOLNAR: Okay, but she works on the machines now, doesn't she?
PN633
THE INTERPRETER: She does work on the machine but for a very short period of time, like five, ten minutes or so.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN634
MR MOLNAR: Okay, all right. So part of the time she is a worker like you, and some of the time she supervises other people; isn't that right?
PN635
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN636
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Killy, or the person you describe as - sorry, I will withdraw that. Killy looks after the workers who work on cottons, isn't that right; she supervises the workers who look after cottons?
PN637
THE INTERPRETER: What do you mean when you say the word cottons?
PN638
MR MOLNAR: The manufacture of clothes with cotton in them.
PN639
THE INTERPRETER: Well, there are other kind of material as well, not just cotton. But there is another male who is in charge of the section where there are only plain machinists.
PN640
MR MOLNAR: So there is another supervisor, isn't there?
PN641
THE INTERPRETER: Well, there is a second supervisor but there is - hasn't been an official announcement of that supervisor.
PN642
MR MOLNAR: Okay. So there may be a role there for a supervisor.
PN643
THE INTERPRETER: I believe that the second person, the second supervisor is there to somehow monitor the other supervisor which is Killy.
PN644
MR MOLNAR: That supervisor monitors Killy, is that right?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN645
THE INTERPRETER: I believe that is just a - some - a way that the employer brought up to ease the anger of the workers in the factory.
PN646
MR MOLNAR: Mr Pham, there were, in fact - Mr Pham, I will just rephrase that. Mr Pham, there are, in fact, three divisions of workers in the factory and I will name them. Those divisions are woven, cottons or basic fabric, and leather; isn't that correct?
PN647
THE INTERPRETER: Well, to my understanding there is only two divisions. One is with clothes, and the other is leather.
PN648
MR MOLNAR: Killy is not called a manager, is she?
PN649
THE INTERPRETER: Well, no one call her a manager. There is just an understanding that she is a supervisor, that is all.
PN650
MR MOLNAR: And she supervises you in how you do your work, isn't that correct?
PN651
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN652
MR MOLNAR: And she supervises the order that you do your work, isn't that right?
PN653
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN654
MR MOLNAR: And she ensures that you have work every day, isn't that right?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN655
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN656
MR MOLNAR: Do you know David Turner?
PN657
THE INTERPRETER: I am not sure whether his name is Turner or something else. I only know there is a person called David and that is the mechanic.
PN658
MR MOLNAR: And David is involved in - he does technical work, doesn't he?
PN659
THE INTERPRETER: I believe he is just the sewing - he repairs sewing machines.
PN660
MR MOLNAR: Okay. It is true, isn't it, that when Simon isn't there David is in charge; isn't that right?
PN661
THE INTERPRETER: Well, it's not very clear, that point, but if Simon is not there, if - or whatever happened, people just come to Killy.
PN662
MR MOLNAR: Would you disagree - I will put it in these terms. There will be evidence given that David is in charge of the factory when Simon isn't there. What do you say about that?
PN663
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I believe if that is the case, the owner of the company should have made an announcement so everybody knows who is the second person in charge of the factory.
PN664
MR MOLNAR: So you would agree then that there may be some doubt, is that right?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN665
MR FAROUQUE: Well, I object to that. The witness is giving his evidence as to the understanding of the situation. He can't - the question is so vague put to him in that context; doubt about whom and about who has doubt. I mean, the witness has given evidence about what his understanding of the situation is.
PN666
MR MOLNAR: I will withdraw that.
PN667
THE COMMISSIONER: It seems clearly to me, Mr Molnar, that even if this person called David was in charge, Mr Pham wasn't told that.
PN668
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Now, when it comes to working out who does overtime, that is Simon, isn't it? He makes that decision.
PN669
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I haven't seen Simon approaching other workers asking to do overtime. Killy has been the person to do that sort of work.
PN670
MR MOLNAR: So your position is that Killy tells people when they can do overtime; is that right?
PN671
THE INTERPRETER: She is just the one who has the authority but I haven't seen Simon doing anything.
PN672
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Killy will give evidence that she doesn't approve or - I will withdraw that. Killy will give evidence that she doesn't decide who gets overtime. What do you say about that?
PN673
THE INTERPRETER: Well, the communication between Killy and Simon, I never knew about what they were talking. But to me, whenever there was overtime, Killy was the person who approached a worker about overtime. People - the worker who joined the union never get any overtime work.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN674
MR MOLNAR: When Killy approaches workers in relation to overtime, what does she say?
[12.10pm]
PN675
THE INTERPRETER: Well, she just say to that worker to stay, for example, like until 6 pm, and she could say to another worker to go home at 5 pm.
PN676
MR MOLNAR: Okay, but it could be that Simon decides who does overtime and just tells Killy to tell the workers, isn't that right?
PN677
MR FAROUQUE: Commissioner, again I object to that question.
PN678
THE COMMISSIONER: Well anything could be - sorry - - -
PN679
MR FAROUQUE: He says that he isn't - not privy to communication between those two people.
PN680
THE COMMISSIONER: He has already given his evidence. He does not know.
PN681
MR FAROUQUE: He has given evidence as to his understanding.
PN682
THE COMMISSIONER: He does not know what - - -
PN683
MR FAROUQUE: It is a matter for submission.
PN684
MR MOLNAR: All right, thank you.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN685
THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, you know, whatever evidence she gives is a matter for her, but he said he doesn't know what the communication is between Simon and Killy.
PN686
MR MOLNAR: All right, yes.
PN687
THE COMMISSIONER: He only knows that she is the one who comes up to people and says: you have got overtime till 6 o'clock or half past five or whatever.
PN688
MR MOLNAR: Okay. When you want to apply for annual leave, it is true that you fill out an annual leave form; isn't that right?
PN689
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I haven't actually applied for annual leave so I am not sure about the procedure.
PN690
MR MOLNAR: All right, okay. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 12 of your statement you state that there were meetings when Epona spoke to workers about the agreement Epona wanted to make. That is your first sentence. That is correct, isn't it?
PN691
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN692
MR MOLNAR: Were you in attendance at those meetings?
PN693
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I was present at all meetings.
PN694
MR MOLNAR: Okay. The workers asked questions about the agreement, didn't they?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN695
THE INTERPRETER: There were a few workers who asked questions.
PN696
MR MOLNAR: Yes, and somebody from Epona answered those questions, didn't they?
PN697
THE INTERPRETER: Do you mean the person representing Epona to answer?
PN698
MR MOLNAR: Yes; answer those questions.
PN699
THE INTERPRETER: There were three people that were from a group of - one was from a Vietnamese group, one from a Chinese group. The third one is from the English-speaking group.
PN700
MR MOLNAR: And at those meetings, did the representatives from Epona - they explained the agreement didn't they?
PN701
THE INTERPRETER: Well, one of the representatives, she was Vietnamese. Her name was Phuong and I asked her about what was going on and she said that she has no idea too.
PN702
MR MOLNAR: Who was Phuong?
PN703
THE INTERPRETER: The Vietnamese lady translating for the Vietnamese group.
PN704
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Can you remember the date when the meeting with Phuong took place?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN705
THE INTERPRETER: Well, Phuong - I found out that she attended a few meetings with Sonia and later on ..... was an agreement that was translated into Vietnamese, but she said to me that she couldn't understand what was happening.
PN706
MR MOLNAR: At that initial meeting?
PN707
THE INTERPRETER: At the meeting between herself and Sonia.
PN708
MR MOLNAR: And did that occur before or after when the agreement was handed out?
PN709
THE INTERPRETER: That was before the agreement.
PN710
MR MOLNAR: Thank you. Could I just refer you to the Vietnamese translation of the Epona agreement which is TCFUA4. Could you have a look at that? Is that document available?
PN711
THE INTERPRETER: The Vietnamese version?
PN712
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Can you recall when you - sorry, I will put it in these terms. You received a copy of that agreement. Isn't that correct?
PN713
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN714
MR MOLNAR: Can you recall when you received a copy of that agreement?
PN715
THE INTERPRETER: I cannot remember when but it was before the voting took place.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN716
MR MOLNAR: If I said to you that that agreement was distributed at a meeting on 18 September 2002, would you disagree with that?
PN717
THE INTERPRETER: Well, that is that an important to me because I cannot remember the exact date.
PN718
MR MOLNAR: Can you remember a meeting in the middle of September when the agreements were handed out to the - when that agreement was handed out to employees?
PN719
THE INTERPRETER: I didn't see the agreement distributed but I was told that there would be an agreement.
PN720
MR MOLNAR: Okay. If I could refer you to paragraph 12 of your statement. If you could have a look at that and if I could take you to the sentence commencing:
PN721
At many of the meetings Sonia said that if the workers did not agree to Epona's agreement there would be no overtime for workers and that the overtime would be sent to Fiji.
PN722
That is your evidence today. Is that right? Yes.
PN723
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN724
MR MOLNAR: Did she say that - no, I will withdraw that.
PN725
THE COMMISSIONER: Try not to have too many double negatives. It is difficult.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN726
MR MOLNAR: It is. Did she say that in English?
PN727
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, she said that in English and also the owner, Robert said that as well.
PN728
MR MOLNAR: Was that translated into Vietnamese?
PN729
THE INTERPRETER: Her words were not translated into Vietnamese because there was no interpreter at that meeting.
PN730
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Ms Bettega will come in here and say that she didn't say that. What do you say about that?
PN731
THE INTERPRETER: I still say that she said those words.
PN732
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Is there any reason why you can think of as to why she would deny that she said that?
PN733
THE INTERPRETER: Well, it is her right to deny that, but she has said that several times at many different meetings to the workers because as I understand the worker really needs the overtime work.
PN734
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Could I take you to the next sentence? That sentence is:
PN735
I recall that during some meetings Sonia Bettega and Robert Cromb said that if Epona had to pay Federal award rates then Epona would collapse.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN736
Is that your evidence today?
PN737
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN738
MR MOLNAR: Ms Bettega will say that she did not say that. What do you say about that?
PN739
THE INTERPRETER: I still say that she said those things and some other workers can also confirm that.
PN740
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Was what Sonia Bettega said translated into English?
PN741
THE COMMISSIONER: I presume she said it in English actually, Mr Molnar?
PN742
MR MOLNAR: Sorry?
PN743
THE COMMISSIONER: I presume she said it in English.
PN744
MR MOLNAR: Sorry, my apologies. Was - yes, was what Ms Bettega said translated into Vietnamese?
PN745
THE INTERPRETER: Of course not because there were no interpreter at those meetings.
PN746
MR MOLNAR: Right. Okay. In the next sentence you say that Ms Bettega said words to the effect, "Everything that the union says is bullshit". Is that your evidence today?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN747
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, she did say that and she said that in - she said that really loud.
PN748
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Was that translated into Vietnamese?
PN749
THE INTERPRETER: Of course those words were never translated.
PN750
MR MOLNAR: Were translators present at the time?
PN751
THE INTERPRETER: No, there was no interpreter, no translator.
PN752
MR MOLNAR: Yes. And is that the only time that you say that Ms Bettega used the word "bullshit" in relation to the union?
PN753
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN754
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Ms Bettega will say that she never said that everything the union said was bullshit. What do you say about that?
PN755
THE INTERPRETER: Well, she said that and many people heard what she said, even the owner's mother heard that and her name was Annie.
PN756
MR MOLNAR: Yes. You then go on to say in paragraph 12 that you said words to the effect of:
PN757
You are a manager here and you are being disrespectful to the workers here. There are many workers here who are older than your father.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN758
Is that correct?
PN759
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN760
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Did you say that in Vietnamese?
PN761
THE INTERPRETER: I said it in English.
PN762
MR MOLNAR: You said that in English?
PN763
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN764
MR MOLNAR: Ms Bettega will deny that you said that. What do you say about that?
PN765
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I said that and I now confirm that I said that.
PN766
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Is there any reason why you can think of why Ms Bettega would deny that?
PN767
THE INTERPRETER: Well, because she is a manager supervising a lot of workers and her way of getting around things and she has to deny those things.
PN768
MR MOLNAR: Yes. You then state that Sonia said:
PN769
I have a right to say this to anyone who joined the union.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN770
Is that your evidence today?
PN771
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN772
MR MOLNAR: Yes. And did she say that in English?
PN773
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN774
MR MOLNAR: Sorry?
PN775
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN776
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Ms Bettega will deny that she said that. What do you say about that?
PN777
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I confirm that she said that and that is another worker, but she is no longer at the factory and her English was very good and she also confirmed that she heard Sonia Bettega said such words.
PN778
MR MOLNAR: Yes. You say here in paragraph 13 that:
PN779
Epona put the workers under a lot of pressure about making the agreement.
PN780
That is right?
PN781
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN782
MR MOLNAR: I mean that is just not true.
PN783
THE INTERPRETER: Well, that was the truth because all workers were threatened and whoever agreed to the new agreement would get overtime work.
PN784
MR MOLNAR: Yes. You state here in paragraph 14 that you saw Killy approach workers. You state that she said that they would not get overtime or get the sack if they joined the union. Killy will give evidence later on that she didn't say that. What do you say about that?
PN785
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I still say that Killy did such thing because I was told by other workers that she did approach them in that way.
PN786
MR MOLNAR: Yes. Okay. Could I just take you to exhibit A of your statement. Just have a look at that.
PN787
MR FAROUQUE: Exhibit A?
PN788
MR MOLNAR: Yes, thank you. Now it is correct, isn't it, that once you received this notice you got in contact with your union? Isn't that right?
PN789
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I contact Dot from the union.
PN790
MR MOLNAR: Yes. And Dot explained to you what your rights were. Is that right?
PN791
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN792
MR MOLNAR: Yes. So you understood, didn't you, that once you had read the notice that there was going to be a vote on the agreement. Isn't that right?
PN793
THE INTERPRETER: Well, because I already knew about it that is how I knew there was going to be a vote, but in my opinion other people who read this notice will not be able to understand.
PN794
MR MOLNAR: But you understood that there was going to be a vote on the agreement. That is right?
PN795
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN796
MR MOLNAR: Yes. And you understood that if there was a majority vote the agreement would be approved. That is right, isn't it?
PN797
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN798
MR MOLNAR: Yes. And do you agree that on 22 October 2002 there was a vote? Isn't that right?
PN799
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN800
MR MOLNAR: Yes. And if you could just look at TCFUA3 - sorry, TCFUA4 which is the Vietnamese translation of the English agreement, if you could just have a look at that.
PN801
THE INTERPRETER: Which part?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN802
MR MOLNAR: Just look at that agreement, that document.
PN803
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that is right.
PN804
MR MOLNAR: And you understood that on 22 October 2002; that is the agreement you were voting on, that is right?
[12.40pm]
PN805
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN806
MR MOLNAR: Now, on 27 October, 2002 you were present when the vote was taken, that is right, is it not?
PN807
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN808
MR MOLNAR: And do you agree that people were asked to put up their hand if they agree with the agreement?
PN809
THE INTERPRETER: That is correct.
PN810
MR MOLNAR: Yes, and people put up their hands, is that not correct?
PN811
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN812
MR MOLNAR: And you didn't actually count the people that put up their hands, did you?
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN813
THE INTERPRETER: I did count. I just want to know how many were putting their hand up.
PN814
MR MOLNAR: And how many do you say voted in favour of the agreement?
PN815
THE INTERPRETER: At the first - the first time they put their hands up I had a count. Not many people, just a few people put their hand up.
PN816
MR MOLNAR: About three people?
PN817
THE INTERPRETER: I am not sure how many but not that many put their hand up.
PN818
MR MOLNAR: Five people - more than five people?
PN819
THE INTERPRETER: I cannot give an accurate number.
PN820
MR MOLNAR: But you told us that you counted the votes, is that not correct?
PN821
THE INTERPRETER: I just had a look to see whether there is a majority or not.
PN822
MR MOLNAR: So you just had a look around, is that not right? You didn't actually move around to count the people, did you?
PN823
THE INTERPRETER: That is right, I didn't have that right because I was not a representative of - - -
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN824
MR MOLNAR: But based on what you saw do you think more than five people voted in favour or less than five?
PN825
THE INTERPRETER: I believe it is over five people but I don't think that is the majority.
PN826
MR MOLNAR: Okay, was it more or less than 10 people?
PN827
THE INTERPRETER: Of course, over 10 people.
PN828
MR MOLNAR: Sorry?
PN829
THE INTERPRETER: Of course, more than 10 people.
PN830
MR MOLNAR: More than 10 people. Was it more or less than 20 people?
PN831
THE INTERPRETER: I believe it is less than 20 people.
PN832
MR MOLNAR: Less than 20 people. Is it more or less than 15 people?
PN833
THE INTERPRETER: I am not sure about that.
PN834
MR MOLNAR: You are not sure. Okay, is it not true that other people counted the vote?
PN835
THE INTERPRETER: There were two people.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN836
MR MOLNAR: Did Sonia Bettega count the vote?
PN837
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN838
MR MOLNAR: Did Maria Christopolous count the vote?
PN839
THE INTERPRETER: No, she didn't.
PN840
MR MOLNAR: No, not at any time?
PN841
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN842
MR MOLNAR: Did Belen Remon count the vote?
PN843
THE INTERPRETER: Who is that person?
PN844
THE WITNESS: McLean, McLean, yes, I know that now, yes, McLean.
PN845
MR MOLNAR: Did a person call Macklin - - -
PN846
THE WITNESS: Yes, Macklin, yes.
PN847
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN848
MR MOLNAR: If I could just take you to paragraph 19 at the end of it - that paragraph. You state here that you yelled out, "We won, we got a majority."
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN849
THE COMMISSIONER: He says that Sonia yelled out.
PN850
MR MOLNAR: Sorry, my apologies. You state there that Sonia yelled out, "We won, we got a majority." Is that your evidence today?
PN851
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN852
MR MOLNAR: Sonia Bettega will say that she didn't say that. What do you say about that?
PN853
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I still shall confirm that she said that - - -
PN854
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN855
THE INTERPRETER: - - - and I have another worker in the factory; his name is Ming and he also heard the same.
PN856
MR MOLNAR: Now, you gave evidence earlier that you received the agreement - when Mr Farouque was asking you questions and he asked you when you received the agreement, TCFUA4, that is that document in front of you, you stated to him that you received that agreement briefly before the vote took place?
PN857
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN858
MR MOLNAR: But you couldn't remember precisely when?
PN859
THE INTERPRETER: That is right.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN860
MR MOLNAR: Right. It is true, Mr Pham, that you received that agreement at some stage in the middle of September, is that not right?
PN861
THE INTERPRETER: Well, I don't remember the date, I can only remember just before the voting date.
PN862
MR MOLNAR: But would you disagree with me that it was in about the middle of September 2002?
PN863
THE INTERPRETER: Well, it doesn't concern me because I cannot remember the exact date and I only know it was prior to the vote being - - -
PN864
MR MOLNAR: Can you recall, Mr Pham, how you received the agreement which is TCFUA4?
PN865
THE INTERPRETER: Well, as far as I can remember Sonia distributed that to everybody and then to me.
PN866
MR MOLNAR: Sonia distributed it to everyone and to you; that is right - yes?
PN867
THE INTERPRETER: A lot of workers came to her to get the agreement but in my case she came to me.
PN868
MR MOLNAR: But was that at the same time when she distributed the agreement to other workers?
PN869
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the same time.
**** XXN MR MOLNAR
PN870
MR MOLNAR: Yes. No further questions.
PN871
THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any re-examination, Mr Farouque?
PN872
PN873
MR FAROUQUE: Mr Pham, I want you to go to TCFUA4, that is the Vietnamese agreement. Have you got that there with you?
PN874
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN875
MR FAROUQUE: I want you to go to page 10 of that agreement. Mr Pham, can you tell the Commission what the title of that clause 23 is?
PN876
THE INTERPRETER: It is about superannuation.
PN877
MR MOLNAR: Commissioner, I am not quite sure whether Mr Farouque is doing re-examination or examination-in-chief. My recollection was that I didn't cover clause 23 of the agreement at all.
PN878
THE COMMISSIONER: No.
PN879
MR FAROUQUE: Commissioner, the matter arises in this sense. My learned friend has put the agreement to Mr Pham as the agreement that he voted on so to speak and I want to put to Mr Pham matters which relate to what he indeed voted on and what is contained in the document that he voted on and it will take two more questions - it is a short matter.
**** RXN MR FAROUQUE
PN880
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN881
MR FAROUQUE: If Mr Molnar wishes to raise any matters further on that he can do that; I won't make any objection to it. Mr Pham, I want to take you to page 11; if you turn the page. Do you see the clause which is 23.2.1, paragraph (b)?
PN882
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, which clause again?
PN883
MR FAROUQUE: At the very top of page 11 there is a number there which is 23.2.1(b).
PN884
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN885
MR FAROUQUE: Can you tell the Commission what that sentence says?
PN886
THE INTERPRETER: I don't understand what it means.
PN887
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, can you translate that word, or can you say what that word means in that paragraph?
PN888
THE COMMISSIONER: The words in Vietnamese. Could he tell us what the words in Vietnamese are?
PN889
THE INTERPRETER: Well, when I see that the first two words in Vietnamese I think about superannuation.
PN890
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and the third word, the word, L-a?
**** RXN MR FAROUQUE
PN891
THE INTERPRETER: That just mean, like, to me.
PN892
THE WITNESS: To me, yes.
PN893
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, thank you. No further questions.
PN894
THE COMMISSIONER: I have just got a couple of questions. In - at some of the meetings there were interpreters and at some of the meetings there were not. Is that correct?
PN895
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN896
THE COMMISSIONER: And who were the interpreters? Were they workers from the factory or were they from outside the factory?
PN897
THE INTERPRETER: Somebody came from - - -
PN898
THE COMMISSIONER: Somebody came from outside?
PN899
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN900
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, okay.
PN901
MR MOLNAR: Commissioner, if I might be permitted to ask a follow-up question from Mr Farouque's re-examination which - - -
PN902
THE COMMISSIONER: I haven't finished actually but - - -
**** RXN MR FAROUQUE
PN903
MR MOLNAR: My apologies.
PN904
THE COMMISSIONER: At the meeting on - when the vote was taken was - were the workers shown the agreement that they were being asked to vote on?
PN905
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN906
THE COMMISSIONER: And were there any interpreters at that meeting?
PN907
THE INTERPRETER: No, there was no interpreter.
PN908
PN909
MR MOLNAR: Thank you. Mr Pham, I want to talk to you about the meeting that you had with the company to talk about the agreement; okay. Can you recall the subject of superannuation being discussed?
PN910
THE INTERPRETER: I was the one who asked the question regarding superannuation because it was not clear in the agreement.
PN911
MR MOLNAR: Yes, and what was the question that you asked at that meeting?
PN912
THE INTERPRETER: Well, my question was in relation to the - sorry, I have to clarify this. Well, I asked the question, when someone stopped working and the superannuation - the amount of superannuation is more than the amount that the workers should get in compensation, then the worker cannot receive that compensation amount. I just want to clarify that because I couldn't understand.
**** FXXN MR MOLNAR
PN913
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN914
THE COMMISSIONER: I think I understand, it was an issue discussed on transcript at the last occasion, as I understand it. If superannuation was payable - - -
PN915
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN916
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - when someone was made redundant.
PN917
MR MOLNAR: Yes, is it not true, Mr Pham, that at the meetings you were told that the proposed fund into which super contributions would be paid would be the Colonial Select Superannuation Fund?
PN918
THE INTERPRETER: Well, at the moment I still don't know which fund I am with because I haven't actually received any written document about my - the fund that I - - -
PN919
MR MOLNAR: Yes, I am not talking about the fund where money might now be going, I am talking about what representatives from the company told you at the time of the meeting when you talked about the agreement; that is what I am talking about?
PN920
THE INTERPRETER: Well, that person didn't mention anything about the Colonial Fund.
PN921
MR MOLNAR: Right, no further questions.
PN922
PN923
THE COMMISSIONER: Would that be a convenient time for us to adjourn?
PN924
MR MOLNAR: I think it would be, Commissioner, thank you.
PN925
THE COMMISSIONER: We will resume at two.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.02pm]
RESUMED [2.07pm]
PN926
THE COMMISSIONER: Right. I think I suggested before lunch that there be some discussion about the order of witnesses. Is it all right if we - - -
PN927
MR MOLNAR: I think given that the Chinese interpreter is here, it is obviously more appropriate if Mr Farouque is happy with that to proceed immediately with Khien Trau.
PN928
MR FAROUQUE: Look, I have no objection to that course and commend it to the Commission's ..... to the parties.
PN929
THE COMMISSIONER: It just might make a bit easier for us.
PN930
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN931
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN932
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, then - - -
PN933
PN934
MR MOLNAR: Ms Trau, I am going to ask you some questions and then my friend here, Mr Farouque, is going to ask some questions. The microphones in front of you are not speakers but they just ensure that there is a proper transcript, so you need to speak up when you give an answers. What is your full name?
PN935
THE WITNESS: My family name, T-r-a-u Khien.
PN936
MR MOLNAR: Thank you. And your occupation?
PN937
THE INTERPRETER: Supervisor, the office.
PN938
MR MOLNAR: Okay. And your address?]
PN939
THE WITNESS: 28 Somerset Street, Richmond.
PN940
MR MOLNAR: Have you prepared a witness statement in relation to today?
PN941
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN942
MR MOLNAR: If I could hand up the statement.
PN943
THE COMMISSIONER: If I could just say one thing in relation to the witness statement, a number of the paragraphs in this witness statement are in response to paragraphs in Mr Pham's statement that have been excluded.
**** KHIEN TRAU XN MR MOLNAR
PN944
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN945
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. I should have raised that.
PN946
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN947
MR FAROUQUE: It is paragraph 6 to 10, I think.
PN948
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN949
THE COMMISSIONER: Paragraph 6 to 12, apparently, seem to deal with that.
PN950
MR FAROUQUE: To 12, sorry.
PN951
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN952
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, it is.
PN953
MR MOLNAR: Thank you for pointing that out. I will deal with that.
PN954
THE COMMISSIONER: If you can deal with that, thank you.
PN955
MR MOLNAR: Could I ask the translator to translate to the witness the paragraphs - the whole of the statement except for paragraphs - - -
**** KHIEN TRAU XN MR MOLNAR
PN956
THE COMMISSIONER: 6 to 11, I think it is.
PN957
MR MOLNAR: - - - sorry, my apologies - except for paragraphs 6 to 11.
PN958
THE INTERPRETER: You mean the whole statement except paragraph 6 to 11?
PN959
MR MOLNAR: Except paragraph 6 to 11. 6 to 11 are no longer valid.
PN960
THE INTERPRETER: So, your Worship, I can start translating to this lady?
PN961
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.
PN962
MR MOLNAR: Commissioner, just in relation to the witness statement, I would also observe that in paragraph 2, whilst it is partially responsive to paragraph 11 of Mr Pham's statement, it is also responsive to paragraph 13 of Mr Pham's statement in relation to the issue of pressure. Therefore I would suggest that ought to be similarly part of the evidence.
PN963
THE COMMISSIONER: Paragraph 11 you are referring to, is it?
PN964
MR MOLNAR: Everything - except for the first sentence, everything after - everything after the first sentence ought to be part of the evidence because it is responsive to paragraph 13, in part, it is a response of paragraph 13 on Mr Pham's evidence in relation to the issue of pressure. What Mr Pham says in his statement is that:
PN965
Epona put the workers under a lot of pressure about making the agreement. Other workers told me that too, he said to them that if they didn't agree with the agreement they would not get overtime and they would get special pressure.
**** KHIEN TRAU XN MR MOLNAR
PN966
And that has gone in as evidence.
PN967
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't know that it necessarily follows - I am sorry, I am having difficulty in seeing where this follows.
PN968
MR MOLNAR: If you look at paragraph 13 of Mr Pham's statement, what Mr Pham is saying there is that Epona put the workers under a lot of pressure about making the agreement:
PN969
Other workers told me that too, he said to them that if they didn't agree with the agreement they would not get overtime and they would get special pressure.
PN970
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN971
MR MOLNAR: Everything after the first sentence in paragraph 11 is partially responsive to the issue of pressure, in a sense that Killy - yes, Killy, didn't put pressure on Mr Pham:
PN972
At no time did I put pressure on Mr Pham.
PN973
Well, I think it is actually referring to - yes, I think it is a response to paragraph 11 where she says:
PN974
I started to get pressure put on me from Killy. Killy said I was working to slow. This was not happening before I joined the union.
PN975
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Look, I think we - - -
**** KHIEN TRAU XN MR MOLNAR
PN976
THE COMMISSIONER: I think that is what it is. I don't think it is - - -
PN977
MR MOLNAR: We deal with it.
PN978
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't think he specified anything about what sort of pressure was being put on people.
PN979
MR MOLNAR: Yes. We deal with paragraph 13 in paragraph 16 and 17 in any event.
PN980
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I think you do. Yes.
PN981
MR MOLNAR: Okay.
PN982
MR FAROUQUE: Just in relation to the other matter, I think just as a matter of clarity, as I understand the evidence, the evidence up to paragraph 11 has been excluded.
PN983
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN984
MR FAROUQUE: As I understand it, paragraph 12 is responsive to something that Mr Pham says, which I understand has also been excluded, and that is paragraph 11 of Mr Pham's statement.
PN985
THE COMMISSIONER: I see.
PN986
MR FAROUQUE: So perhaps it would be appropriate that that also be excised.
**** KHIEN TRAU XN MR MOLNAR
PN987
THE COMMISSIONER: That will also be excluded. All right. Fine. Okay.
PN988
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Ms Trau, do you understand the statement that you have given today?
PN989
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I do.
PN990
MR MOLNAR: And is it a true and correct in every particular?
PN991
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN992
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN993
MR MOLNAR: And do you want to make any amendments to it?
PN994
THE WITNESS: No.
PN995
THE INTERPRETER: Nothing.
PN996
MR MOLNAR: I will tender the witness statement.
PN997
**** KHIEN TRAU XN MR MOLNAR
PN998
MR MOLNAR: Commissioner, I just have one question.
PN999
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course. It is your witness.
PN1000
MR MOLNAR: Thank you. Ms Trau, at Epona who is the person that makes decisions in relation to who gets - who works overtime?
PN1001
THE WITNESS: Simon Clarke.
PN1002
MR MOLNAR: And who is Simon Clarke?
PN1003
THE WITNESS: My - my - my boss.
PN1004
THE INTERPRETER: My boss.
PN1005
PN1006
MR FAROUQUE: Ms Trau, you have described yourself in your evidence - when you were asked some questions by Molnar - as supervisor.
PN1007
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1008
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. In fact, you are on a staff salary arrangement, aren't you?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1009
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I was on a salary.
PN1010
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. You were on a salary arrangement so you are different to the other production workers, aren't you? Isn't that right?
PN1011
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN1012
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. They - when they work longer hours they get paid overtime, don't they?
PN1013
THE INTERPRETER: To whom?
PN1014
MR FAROUQUE: When the production workers work longer hours, past their normal hours, they get paid overtime don't they?
PN1015
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1016
MR FAROUQUE: But because you are on salary you just get your normal salary, don't you?
PN1017
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1018
MR FAROUQUE: You don't get paid overtime by the company, do you?
PN1019
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1020
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Now, it is not - your understanding is that is going to be the arrangement about your pay rates going forward, isn't that right?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1021
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1022
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You are going to remain on salary, aren't you?
PN1023
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1024
MR FAROUQUE: Now you - you are a pretty senior person at the Prahran factory, aren't you?
PN1025
THE INTERPRETER: So, so, just like the - like the supervisor's job.
PN1026
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Isn't it correct to say that you are told what the production requirement is for the day - isn't that right?
PN1027
THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, please?
PN1028
MR FAROUQUE: Sorry, I will repeat that question. You are told what the production requirement is for the factory on a particular day, aren't you? How many articles of clothes are required to be produced.
PN1029
THE INTERPRETER: There is no strict numbers. It all depends if - say for example today a lot of people coming in, there would be a higher production. If less people there would be less production.
PN1030
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But you are told how many garments or items of clothing that the company needs to be produced every day, aren't you?
PN1031
THE INTERPRETER: No.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1032
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. It is your responsibility, isn't it, to assign work to particular workers - isn't that right?
PN1033
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1034
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And in fact organising that production is the major part of your job?
[2.30pm]
PN1035
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1036
MR FAROUQUE: That is in fact the most important part of your job, is it not?
PN1037
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1038
MR FAROUQUE: And it is the part of the job which keeps you the busiest, is that not right?
PN1039
THE INTERPRETER: Always busy.
PN1040
MR FAROUQUE: I am sure the company is happy to know that. But that - the part of the job where you organise are - the production occurs, that takes up most your time, naturally.
PN1041
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1042
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, now because you do that, organise the production, you must be pretty familiar with what the work performance of particular workers is?
PN1043
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1044
MR FAROUQUE: And you make it your business really to know how particular workers are doing their job?
PN1045
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1046
MR FAROUQUE: In fact you are the person who has the best knowledge because you are so close to looking at what work is being done you are the best person in the company who knows what particular workers are doing in terms of work performance?
PN1047
THE INTERPRETER: Who is good at certain thing, who is not good at certain thing.
PN1048
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay, now, when you have to organise the production, you have to - you have got to decide how many hours work is required to be done, don't you, by a particular worker?
PN1049
THE INTERPRETER: I just - to decide who is good at what, then I will let that person do that particular part.
PN1050
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, and if more time is required to do that particular part of the work you will tell that worker that they need to work longer hours, don't you?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1051
THE INTERPRETER: Not really, if that person is good at that, doesn't mean that it has to take longer time.
PN1052
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay, but it is correct, is it not, that you will assign - I withdraw that. It is true, is it not, that you will decide who works longer than the other workers?
PN1053
THE INTERPRETER: Unless this is a new person then I give that person a chance to learn.
PN1054
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, so you would agree with me that you decide who works longer than other workers?
PN1055
THE INTERPRETER: What do you mean, can you say it once more?
PN1056
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, you are the person who decides who works longer hours than - which worker will work longer hours than other workers?
PN1057
THE INTERPRETER: In December I had two lots of work - they are both 10 pieces, one for the new person and one for the person who know what is happening. So this new one has to be slower. Sorry, your Worship.
PN1058
MR MOLNAR: Excuse me, Commissioner - - -
PN1059
MR FAROUQUE: I think the witness should be able to finish her answer, then, perhaps Mr Molnar - - -
PN1060
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1061
- - - can raise his objection.
PN1062
THE INTERPRETER: Your Worship, can I ask this witness to repeat the last sentence, if I - - -
PN1063
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, if you could just repeat the last bit?
PN1064
THE INTERPRETER: You have to look at different situations, for example, sewing - for example I give this person to put the collar on - this new one comparatively slower. Say, for example, two new persons learning, one might take longer, it all depends how they handle things, how quick they are on their hands. Some of them more clever and they learn quicker.
PN1065
MR MOLNAR: It is clear that the question is very confusing to the witness. Mr Farouque has asked a question about working longer hours than other workers; he doesn't identify who these other workers are - - -
PN1066
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I know, I - - -
PN1067
MR MOLNAR: The witness - - -
PN1068
THE COMMISSIONER: I understand where Mr Farouque is trying to go but I think you are going to have to be more direct; all right.
PN1069
MR FAROUQUE: Ms Trau, am I saying your name correctly, Ms Trau?
PN1070
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1071
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay, Ms Trau, you are the person who decides who does overtime and who doesn't do overtime, are you not?
PN1072
THE INTERPRETER: As to overtime, no, it is decided by Simon.
PN1073
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, the total amount of overtime, is that decided by Simon?
PN1074
THE INTERPRETER: For example, Simon said to me today - one is normal sewing, one is overlooking, he say today overlocking there is no overtime today.
PN1075
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1076
THE INTERPRETER: Because he didn't have enough workers to do the overlocking so got more for the normal sewing.
PN1077
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, so he says, well, the normal sewing - there will be overtime in the normal sewing section; is that right?
PN1078
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1079
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and then it is you who decides which particular worker you will give the overtime to because you know what people's performance is?
PN1080
THE INTERPRETER: See, for example, the normal sewing, someone goes on, then if I know in the overlocking area - whether - who can do the normal sewing then I will transfer that person on to the normal sewing area.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1081
MR FAROUQUE: So you select the particular people who will be doing the overtime, don't you?
PN1082
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1083
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and you tell - you are the one who tells the particular employee that they will be doing overtime, are you not, you are the person who does it?
PN1084
THE INTERPRETER: Simon said that but if there is an empty machine then I will help him but if there is no empty machine I can't help him.
PN1085
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, okay, now, you are one of the few people in that workplace who speaks both Vietnamese and Chinese; is that right?
PN1086
THE INTERPRETER: I know Vietnamese, Chinese and Mandarin.
PN1087
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, so when you say Chinese you are speaking of Cantonese, are you not, is that right?
PN1088
THE INTERPRETER: Cantonese but I also know Mandarin.
PN1089
MR FAROUQUE: You know Mandarin as well, okay. Now, then Mandarin and Cantonese they are different languages, are they not?
PN1090
THE INTERPRETER: The language different but the words are exactly the same.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1091
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, so if you read - the way it is written is the same; is that right - okay. But hearing somebody speak Cantonese is different from hearing somebody speak Mandarin?
PN1092
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1093
MR FAROUQUE: But you understand both, do you not?
PN1094
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1095
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, thank you. Now, there are a number of workers at Epona who are of Cantonese background, are there not?
PN1096
THE INTERPRETER: You mean, among the workers - - -
PN1097
MR FAROUQUE: That is right.
PN1098
THE INTERPRETER: - - - Chinese?
PN1099
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN1100
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1101
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and there are also workers who are from Mandarin background; is that right?
PN1102
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1103
MR FAROUQUE: And if they were to speak - if a Cantonese person is to speak to somebody who speaks only Mandarin, they would not - the person who speaks Mandarin would not understand them?
PN1104
THE INTERPRETER: Some of them do understand, some don't. Say, for example, when I went to school I learn Mandarin, then I know Mandarin. Some schools did not learn Mandarin so they don't.
PN1105
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay, so some people - some people of Mandarin background will understand Cantonese; is that right?
PN1106
THE INTERPRETER: Not necessarily.
PN1107
THE COMMISSIONER: The other way around - sorry. Educated Cantonese speak Mandarin.
PN1108
MR FAROUQUE: Is that right, okay.
PN1109
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1110
MR FAROUQUE: This is new to me, so, okay.
PN1111
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1112
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, yes, of course, yes, I understand the imperatives in those situations.
PN1113
THE COMMISSIONER: Right.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1114
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, I will just write that down. How many workers at Epona are of Mandarin background?
PN1115
THE INTERPRETER: I don't count how many - approximately.
PN1116
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN1117
THE INTERPRETER: Mandarin?
PN1118
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN1119
THE INTERPRETER: Approximately six.
PN1120
MR FAROUQUE: Six, okay. Would there be more than six?
PN1121
THE INTERPRETER: Roughly, about six.
PN1122
MR FAROUQUE: There might be a few more than six?
PN1123
THE INTERPRETER: If more than six, some of them knows Mandarin and Cantonese.
PN1124
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, but there are at least six people there at Epona who speak only Mandarin, is that what you are saying?
PN1125
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1126
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1127
THE INTERPRETER: Six people speak Mandarin and also some others speak Cantonese and Mandarin.
PN1128
MR FAROUQUE: And Mandarin, okay, okay. Those six - a lot of the workers at Epona - well, I withdraw that. Now, you - Epona when they wanted to make this agreement they had meetings where they wanted to - they had interpreters present; did they not?
PN1129
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1130
MR FAROUQUE: And were those interpreters - those interpreters were Vietnamese interpreter?
PN1131
THE INTERPRETER: We Chinese - there was a Chinese there.
PN1132
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN1133
THE INTERPRETER: The Chinese person can speak both Mandarin and Cantonese and he also interpret Vietnamese.
PN1134
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, but the employees were separated into Cantonese and Mandarin - sorry, Chinese and Vietnamese groups, were there not, when they were doing these sessions?
PN1135
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1136
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and the interpreter did the session - was speaking to the workers in Cantonese in the Chinese session, was he not?
PN1137
THE INTERPRETER: Two languages.
PN1138
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, okay. Was that Cantonese and Mandarin, was it?
PN1139
THE INTERPRETER: That is correct.
PN1140
MR FAROUQUE: Now, Ms Trau, you are the management person - you are the only person who has got a supervisor or managerial role who speaks both Cantonese, Mandarin and Vietnamese?
PN1141
THE INTERPRETER: Me?
PN1142
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN1143
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1144
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and so you are the one who deals directly with the workers, do you not?
PN1145
THE INTERPRETER: That is correct.
PN1146
MR FAROUQUE: And so you are seen in the company as a person with a lot of authority, are you not?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1147
THE COMMISSIONER: Seen by whom?
PN1148
MR FAROUQUE: You are seen by the workers, you would agree, as a person with a lot of authority at the workplace?
PN1149
THE INTERPRETER: Not really authority, we are all workers.
PN1150
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Mr Pham says that you are regarded as a person with authority - a lot of authority at the workplace.
PN1151
THE INTERPRETER: That is what they - you know, look at me but if I look at myself we are all the same workers.
PN1152
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, yes, but you understand the way that other people regard you, don't you?
PN1153
THE INTERPRETER: Normally, well, you know, what they look at me might be different. I look at myself the same, I don't care. It all depends, you know, every individual's way of looking at things.
PN1154
MR FAROUQUE: Now, you are the person, for instance, that other workers will come and ask whether they can take their annual leave; is that not right?
PN1155
THE INTERPRETER: I just, you know, said to them, this is going to be decided by Simon Clarke not decided by myself. I ask them to fill in a form and then take it to Simon Clarke.
PN1156
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, now it is correct, is it not, Ms Trau that you - I withdraw that. Now, you received the - I want to show you a document, Ms Trau. It is DP2 to the statement of Mr Pham. I am not sure whether there is a copy of that at the associates' desk. Sorry, not DP2, I mean, exhibit A or exhibit B, it should be, sorry.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1157
THE COMMISSIONER: The English?
PN1158
MR FAROUQUE: The English notice, yes. You received one of those notices, did you?
PN1159
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1160
MR FAROUQUE: You did, okay, in fact - I wonder if the witness could be shown DP1, that is the Vietnamese version of the same notice, is it not?
PN1161
THE INTERPRETER: This is Vietnamese.
PN1162
MR FAROUQUE: And you gave that notice to Mr Pham, did you not?
PN1163
THE INTERPRETER: There was a list, you know, I just followed the list, whoever was given that notice, I just put a tick next to the name.
PN1164
MR FAROUQUE: So you - is your evidence that you gave the notice out to all the workers?
PN1165
THE INTERPRETER: I am - that person sitting behind you.
PN1166
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, that is Ms O'Day, is it?
PN1167
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1168
MR FAROUQUE: But you gave that notice to Mr - do you recall giving that notice to Mr Pham?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1169
THE INTERPRETER: I can't recall but if you look at the list if I did give it to him I put a tick next to it.
PN1170
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, now, Mr Pham says that he got the notice one morning?
PN1171
THE INTERPRETER: You mean in the morning he received it?
PN1172
MR FAROUQUE: That is right, from you?
PN1173
THE INTERPRETER: Not myself, with the other person, we both did it because the other side gave this to me - then I will give it out to them.
PN1174
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, but, Mr Pham says that when he got to work - and he starts work at 8 o'clock in the morning, does he not?
PN1175
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1176
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, he says that when he got to work you handed him a copy of the Vietnamese notice.
PN1177
THE INTERPRETER: No, I did not hold this paper, whoever named the - said - then I just pass it on and take it.
PN1178
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1179
THE INTERPRETER: I just follow.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1180
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, now - - -
PN1181
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, is she saying she was with Ms O'Day when Ms O'Day gave them.
PN1182
MR FAROUQUE: She was - yes.
PN1183
THE INTERPRETER: She is - the person who received this paper, whoever got it would just take it.
PN1184
MR FAROUQUE: And what you gave the workers when you were handing out that notice was just that piece of paper, was it not?
PN1185
THE INTERPRETER: Whoever wants, whatever language. If Vietnamese then I will give them the Vietnamese one, if they want English I will give them the English one.
PN1186
MR FAROUQUE: But when you were handing out that notice you didn't give them any other document, did you?
PN1187
THE INTERPRETER: Gave what document?
PN1188
MR FAROUQUE: Well, you didn't give them any other document, you just gave them the notice is what I am asking.
PN1189
THE INTERPRETER: If that - they was to have this given out then it was this because the contract was not given out on the same date.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1190
MR FAROUQUE: The contract was given out beforehand, was it not?
PN1191
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the contract was given before.
PN1192
MR FAROUQUE: That was - and when you said the contract that is the agreement, is it not?
PN1193
THE INTERPRETER: The contract.
PN1194
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay, I want to show you a document and I want you to tell me - if the witness could be shown TCFUA4, that is the Vietnamese - you haven't got it?
PN1195
THE COMMISSIONER: She can have a look at mine. As long as it comes back.
PN1196
MR FAROUQUE: That is the - is that the Vietnamese version of the contract that you are speaking of?
PN1197
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes, it is.
PN1198
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, so this had been given out earlier basically, had it not, been given - - -
PN1199
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1200
MR FAROUQUE: It had been given out in September, is that right?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1201
THE WITNESS: I can't remember the date, I am sorry.
PN1202
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, but you agree it was given out earlier.
PN1203
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN1204
MR FAROUQUE: And that was, maybe, at least a week, would it, beforehand?
PN1205
THE INTERPRETER: I can't recall.
PN1206
MR FAROUQUE: But it wasn't on the same day, it was - - -
PN1207
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, definitely not.
PN1208
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, Ms Trau, I want to show you this document.
PN1209
THE INTERPRETER: Chinese?
PN1210
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. You look at it first and you tell me what that document is?
PN1211
THE INTERPRETER: This is a contract.
PN1212
MR FAROUQUE: That is the contract, is it?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1213
THE INTERPRETER: Agreement.
PN1214
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and that is the Chinese contract?
PN1215
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1216
MR FAROUQUE: Now, Ms Trau, that document - this Chinese contract was given out at about the same time that the Vietnamese one was given out, was it not? Sorry, I will rephrase the question. The Chinese contract that you have just identified was given out at about the same time as the Vietnamese contract was given out to workers?
PN1217
THE INTERPRETER: At the same time.
PN1218
MR FAROUQUE: Now, I want you to look at page 11 of the Chinese one.
PN1219
THE INTERPRETER: Page 11?
PN1220
MR FAROUQUE: Page 11.
PN1221
THE COMMISSIONER: It is down the bottom.
PN1222
MR FAROUQUE: Now, do you see the number 23 on that page, at the left hand side?
PN1223
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, 23, superannuation.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1224
MR FAROUQUE: Say, it is superannuation - is that writing in Chinese?
PN1225
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, superannuation.
PN1226
MR FAROUQUE: I want you to go down to paragraph 23 on 2.1(b).
PN1227
THE INTERPRETER: 2.1(b)?
PN1228
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN1229
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN1230
MR FAROUQUE: Now, you see that sentence next to that number? Can you read out the full sentence there?
PN1231
THE INTERPRETER: This is superannuation fund organisation.
PN1232
MR FAROUQUE: And is there anything else there at that sentence?
PN1233
THE INTERPRETER: Why - for - - -
PN1234
MR FAROUQUE: That is - could you say what it means?
[3.00pm]
PN1235
THE INTERPRETER: It is talking about the organisation, to do with the superannuation.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1236
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. It doesn't say the words of - it doesn't say the words "Colonial" there, does it?
PN1237
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry?
PN1238
MR FAROUQUE: It doesn't say the words "Colonial Superannuation", does it?
PN1239
THE INTERPRETER: As to translation, I don't know. But here it has just Chinese, this organisation.
PN1240
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So it just says "superannuation organisation"; is that all it says?
PN1241
THE INTERPRETER: She said I am going to translate, you are going to translate. She said, I am saying Chinese superannuation funding organisation.
PN1242
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay. Now, the factory - I mean, your role there is pretty important, isn't it, in the factory?
PN1243
THE INTERPRETER: Just, you know, so so, like I am used to it; it is sort of like normal.
PN1244
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay. And the factory can get quite busy, can't it? I mean, the factory can get very busy.
PN1245
THE INTERPRETER: As to myself, you will have to, you know - - -
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1246
THE WITNESS: Always thinking, thinking.
PN1247
THE INTERPRETER: - - - distribute different jobs so I will be more busy.
PN1248
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. And sometimes the production which the factory needs to do is higher than the normal times; isn't that right?
PN1249
THE INTERPRETER: Sometimes high, sometimes low.
PN1250
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and when it gets high, you can have more production than the factory can manage; isn't that right?
PN1251
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it all depends. Sometimes all the people - you know, a lot of people going for holiday, then production is lower. But when they all come back, then production is higher.
PN1252
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, but sometimes the production demand is greater than the capacity of the factory, isn't it?
PN1253
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, sometimes greater.
PN1254
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and when that happens sometimes a bit of work gets sent out, doesn't it?
PN1255
THE INTERPRETER: Sometimes if it is lower, production, then my boss, you know, you have to speed up, then we have to work harder.
PN1256
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay. But sometimes some - when there is really high demand, a bit of work gets sent out of the factory to out-workers, doesn't it?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1257
THE INTERPRETER: What going to hang out out-workers?.
PN1258
MR MOLNAR: Commissioner, before she answers that, before she answers that the word out-workers is - can be meant in two senses. It could be the very legal sense of this word used in the Clothing Trades Award, or a generic sense. Mr Farouque has not - - -
PN1259
MR FAROUQUE: Well, if the Commission pleases - - -
PN1260
MR MOLNAR: - - - really defined what an out-worker is.
PN1261
MR FAROUQUE: Perhaps the witness should be not present while this matter is being dealt with if Mr Molnar wants to pursue it. I can't see that the word has any ambiguity myself.
PN1262
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it does have a particular meaning in the context of the award. Now, I don't know whether you are asking her in that context, or whether you are simply asking her that there are times when work is sent to be done by people outside of the factory.
PN1263
MR MOLNAR: Yes. If it is helpful to Mr Farouque, the company will admit that occasionally it does send work out to be pressed; if that is helpful to Mr Farouque.
PN1264
MR FAROUQUE: Could I just have a moment, Commissioner?
PN1265
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1266
MR FAROUQUE: It is correct, isn't it, Ms Trau, that some pressing gets sent out to be done by people outside the factory?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1267
THE INTERPRETER: Only pressing.
PN1268
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay. And that happens quite frequently, doesn't it?
PN1269
THE INTERPRETER: Not very often. Only at the end of the year, most of the time at the end of the year.
PN1270
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and because in and around about November time it gets really busy, doesn't it?
PN1271
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, more or less at that time.
PN1272
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And there are people who do that pressing from their home, don't they?
PN1273
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, at home.
PN1274
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Now, Ms Trau, you said that you got a copy of the Vietnamese notice and the English notice, those - - -
PN1275
THE INTERPRETER: What notice?
PN1276
MR FAROUQUE: I am talking about the DP1 and DP2.
PN1277
THE COMMISSIONER: The two single sheets.
PN1278
THE INTERPRETER: Only English and Vietnamese, no Chinese.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1279
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, but there was a Chinese notice, wasn't there?
PN1280
THE INTERPRETER: I can't recall.
PN1281
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. I don't think it is a controversial issue but, Ms Trau, you voted at the - when the agreement came to be - came to the vote, you were there, weren't you?
PN1282
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1283
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, and you had a vote as well, didn't you?
PN1284
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1285
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay. Now, the agreement that the company wanted to make was pretty important, wasn't it?
PN1286
THE INTERPRETER: The company just said that it is up to you, you know, if you like to choose - - -
PN1287
MR FAROUQUE: No, no, that is - - -
PN1288
THE INTERPRETER: - - - or you don't like to choose, just to let them know.
PN1289
MR FAROUQUE: Sorry, you might have misunderstood me, and it might have been my fault. So I will put the question again. It was pretty important for the company to make this agreement, wasn't it?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1290
THE INTERPRETER: I don't about the company. I don't know whether it is important or not, I don't know.
PN1291
MR FAROUQUE: But Ms Bettega, she is the General Manager of Epona, isn't she?
PN1292
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1293
MR FAROUQUE: She was really keen to get this agreement approved, wasn't she?
PN1294
THE INTERPRETER: Not really. They gave us time, 14 days.
PN1295
MR FAROUQUE: No, I think you might be misunderstanding me but she, Ms Bettega wanted this agreement to get made, didn't she?
PN1296
THE INTERPRETER: As what the agreement was, whoever agrees just signed their name on it.
PN1297
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. But you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that Ms Bettega had some discussions with you about the agreement?
PN1298
THE INTERPRETER: When we discussed, we all discussed together at the meeting.
PN1299
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Yes, but you had some discussions with Ms Bettega directly about the agreement, just you and Ms Bettega.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1300
THE INTERPRETER: No, no, no.
PN1301
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You had some discussions with Simon Clark about the agreement, didn't you?
PN1302
THE INTERPRETER: No, no.
PN1303
MR FAROUQUE: No. He never spoke with them about the agreement at all.
PN1304
THE INTERPRETER: When we had meeting, we all attend.
PN1305
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay.
PN1306
THE INTERPRETER: Also at the meeting Chinese - there is a persons who represent the Chinese.
PN1307
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN1308
THE INTERPRETER: And one Vietnamese.
PN1309
MR FAROUQUE: Right.
PN1310
THE WITNESS: Together about - how many people? Seven or - seven and - seven people and the interpreter.
PN1311
THE INTERPRETER: Seven people, and also the interpreter, too.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1312
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay.
PN1313
THE INTERPRETER: If there is anything that is not right, we will ask.
PN1314
MR FAROUQUE: And you were at that meeting, weren't you?
PN1315
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1316
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, and who told you about that meeting?
PN1317
THE INTERPRETER: Everybody asked, anything they don't know they ask.
PN1318
MR FAROUQUE: But I want to ask you, who told you to come to that meeting?
PN1319
THE INTERPRETER: We all had a meeting as representing - - -
PN1320
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. No, I understand that. But I am asking you, who told you to come to that meeting?
PN1321
THE INTERPRETER: That is Sonia, yes.
PN1322
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So Sonia did speak to you about the agreement, didn't she, separately?
PN1323
THE INTERPRETER: Not separately.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1324
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, but she asked you to come to the meeting about the agreement.
PN1325
THE INTERPRETER: Altogether, everyone. Just - I represent all the Chinese to discuss - - -
PN1326
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So you were there as a representative of the workers, were you?
PN1327
THE INTERPRETER: The workers asked me to represent them.
PN1328
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Now, Ms Trau, you knew that the company wanted to make the agreement with the workers, didn't you?
PN1329
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1330
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay. This was something that the company wanted to do; isn't that right?
PN1331
THE INTERPRETER: The company asked us all, you know, to discuss together. It is quite good.
PN1332
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. And it is true, isn't it, that you were keen personally to have this agreement made?
PN1333
THE INTERPRETER: I wasn't very anxious. If it is correct, then I will sign. If not, then I don't sign.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1334
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, but what I suggest to you, Ms Trau, is that you were keen to have this agreement made, you were keen - sorry, I will withdraw that. What I suggest to you, Ms Trau, is that you knew that the company wanted to make this agreement, and you went to other workers and spoke to them about the agreement; didn't you?
PN1335
THE INTERPRETER: No. Take a look, you are all there to look at it.
PN1336
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And when you spoke to those other workers you said to some of them that if they didn't agree to the agreement, they wouldn't get any overtime.
PN1337
THE INTERPRETER: I did not say that.
PN1338
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And you said to other workers that if they didn't agree to the agreement, they would get special pressure.
PN1339
THE INTERPRETER: No, did not say that.
PN1340
MR FAROUQUE: But you were supporting the agreement, weren't you?
PN1341
THE INTERPRETER: It is up to, you know, every individual, whatever they want.
PN1342
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. No, but I am asking you, your views, you were supporting the agreement, weren't you?
PN1343
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I support.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1344
MR FAROUQUE: You support the agreement. And you spoke to other workers about what they were thinking about the agreement, didn't you?
PN1345
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, what did you say?
PN1346
MR FAROUQUE: You spoke to other workers about what they thought of the agreement.
PN1347
THE INTERPRETER: No, no. No, I didn't even tell them what, you know, my view was. When they asked me, then I will tell them.
PN1348
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1349
THE INTERPRETER: A lot of people come and ask me, I said it is up to you.
PN1350
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But you are their representative, aren't you?
PN1351
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I was their representative.
PN1352
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And you must have spoken to them about the agreement because you are their representative; you would have gone and spoken to them.
PN1353
THE INTERPRETER: This is a personal opinion, you know, not necessarily that I was right, so it is up to them.
PN1354
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But you were encouraging them to vote for the agreement, weren't you?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1355
THE INTERPRETER: I absolutely did not.
PN1356
MR FAROUQUE: So you didn't encourage them?
PN1357
THE INTERPRETER: No. It was my own opinion.
PN1358
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Did you tell them what your own opinion was?
PN1359
THE INTERPRETER: No. People were - came and asked me: are you going to vote? I said: up to you. I did not say anything.
PN1360
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You did not even tell them what you thought of the agreement; is that what you are saying?
PN1361
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN1362
MR FAROUQUE: Now, the union was pretty active around the workplace when this agreement - when the company was pushing the agreement; isn't that correct?
PN1363
THE INTERPRETER: The work is just like normal days, nothing - all ordinary. I didn't see anything.
PN1364
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But you knew that the union was recruiting members at the workplace at this time; isn't that right?
PN1365
THE INTERPRETER: What?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1366
MR FAROUQUE: You knew that the union had members at this workplace, didn't you?
PN1367
THE INTERPRETER: They come in.
PN1368
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But I want to ask you, you knew that the union had members at this workplace.
PN1369
THE INTERPRETER: The members - I know someone was the members but I do not know who it was.
PN1370
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But you knew there were union members at the workplace.
PN1371
THE INTERPRETER: Later on when it was discovered, then I knew.
PN1372
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. When it was discovered that there were new members.
PN1373
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
PN1374
THE INTERPRETER: Later on, I knew.
PN1375
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay. But you knew that - when you say "later on", are you saying it was only after the agreement was voted on that you knew that there were union members?
PN1376
THE INTERPRETER: No, when the union came into our factory then I realised.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1377
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. And that was before the agreement was voted on?
PN1378
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN1379
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay.
PN1380
THE INTERPRETER: Because when they arrived they pass out slips and papers.
PN1381
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And you must have - you say that you were representing employees in the enterprise agreement, weren't you?
PN1382
THE INTERPRETER: I represent Chinese people.
PN1383
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay. And you must have - and so you were representing Chinese workers about the contract?
PN1384
THE INTERPRETER: Not really. He asked me: What's this? Now, I can't really recall. Later on there was a tall, Chinese person came to interpret. This one.
PN1385
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. No, I think you might have misunderstood my question. You were representing Chinese workers with the company about the contract. That is what you have said today, isn't it?
PN1386
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1387
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You knew that the union had a view about what the - about the contract? The union was handing out some leaflets about the contract?
PN1388
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, they did pass out .....
PN1389
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And you must have - you must have naturally tried to find out what the union was saying about the contract?
PN1390
THE INTERPRETER: You mean the contract of the union?
PN1391
MR FAROUQUE: No. I am asking you, naturally, it would have been - no, I withdraw that. You would have - no, I withdraw that. You would have made yourself aware about what the union was saying about the contract, wouldn't you?
PN1392
THE INTERPRETER: I did look at it that time.
PN1393
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And you knew that the union was saying that the contract is a bad contract?
PN1394
THE INTERPRETER: It's not - not good. It was, you know, different people, a different way of thinking.
PN1395
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay. So you knew that the union was campaigning against the contract?
PN1396
THE INTERPRETER: As to this about the union, I don't know.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1397
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You knew that the union's position was opposed to the contract?
PN1398
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know that, you know. That's their business. That's the, you know, union's affairs, not mine.
PN1399
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But I am not asking you whose affairs it is, I am asking you about what you knew?
PN1400
THE INTERPRETER: What I knew?
PN1401
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. You knew that the union was opposed to the contract.
PN1402
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know whether they opposing it or not, I did not know. I have no feeling to that.
PN1403
MR FAROUQUE: But you said just a bit earlier that you read some of the union's papers that they were handing out.
PN1404
THE INTERPRETER: I just had a glance, I can't recall - - -
PN1405
MR FAROUQUE: Just a glance, did you?
PN1406
THE WITNESS: Yes, a glance.
PN1407
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1408
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1409
MR FAROUQUE: Did you collect one when you were walking into work or?
PN1410
THE INTERPRETER: One day I took one. That piece of paper, I think, still in my drawer.
PN1411
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. And you read it, didn't you?
PN1412
THE INTERPRETER: No, just a quick glance at it.
PN1413
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, and when you had a glance at it you knew that the union was opposed to the contract.
PN1414
THE INTERPRETER: I - I, personally, I don't know how to say it. I haven't got that, you know, way of thinking so I did not have the patience.
PN1415
MR FAROUQUE: You didn't have the patience to?
PN1416
THE INTERPRETER: Because I wasn't interested so didn't look at it.
PN1417
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, but you were representing the Chinese workers, weren't you?
PN1418
THE INTERPRETER: I represent them. You know, they have their own opinion, I have my own opinion. Whatever they want me to pass on I just pass it on.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1419
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay, okay. Ms Trau, I suggest to you that you are not being frank with the Commission, you are not telling the truth to the Commission when you say that you didn't know what the union - that the union was opposed to the agreement.
PN1420
THE INTERPRETER: As to the union, I don't personally in favour of them.
PN1421
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, I know that - I understand that you are not personally in favour of them.
PN1422
THE INTERPRETER: That is my own opinion.
PN1423
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But the evidence that you have given to the Commission is that you did not know that the union was opposed to the contract.
[3.30pm]
PN1424
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know what they - all I knew was my contract if I like it I will sign it, if I did not like it, if I did not like it I just don't sign it. As to other thing I don't know.
PN1425
MR FAROUQUE: What I suggest to you, Ms Trau - - -
PN1426
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1427
MR FAROUQUE: - - - is that you are not telling the truth to this Commission when you said that you did not know that the union was opposed to the agreement?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1428
THE INTERPRETER: If you did not tell me, how would I know.
PN1429
MR FAROUQUE: Okay is that - is this the first time that you have heard when I have been asking you these questions, is this the first time that you have become aware that the union is opposed to the agreement?
PN1430
THE INTERPRETER: Just that you told that I know. I cannot guess. I cannot guess.
PN1431
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. All right. Okay.
PN1432
THE INTERPRETER: Someone say it but I can't guess it. People tell me, you know, that union is good or bad, I don't know, I can't guess. But now you just told me.
PN1433
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. Now, Ms Trau, I suggest to you that you knew from the time - from, in September or October, before the agreement was voted on, that the union was opposed to the agreement. I am suggesting that you knew that all the time.
PN1434
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know whether they are opposed to it or not, I - - -
PN1435
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1436
THE INTERPRETER: I only knew the contract was given to me by the company. If I like it I will sign it. If I did not like it I just won't sign it.
PN1437
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And what I suggest to you is that you approached our workers and you said to them that they would not get overtime or that they would get sacked if they joined the union.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1438
THE INTERPRETER: I did not say that. Did not say that.
PN1439
MR FAROUQUE: Did you speak to other workers, what the union was saying?
PN1440
THE INTERPRETER: What to say?
PN1441
MR FAROUQUE: Did you speak to the other workers, other workers at Epona, about what the union was saying about the contract?
PN1442
THE INTERPRETER: I did not ask these matters.
PN1443
MR FAROUQUE: You attended a number of meetings about the agreement, where all the workers were present. Isn't that right?
PN1444
THE INTERPRETER: To where to have the meeting.
PN1445
MR FAROUQUE: Yes.
PN1446
THE INTERPRETER: To where?
PN1447
MR FAROUQUE: When all the workers were there, there were a - - -
PN1448
THE INTERPRETER: I was there, too.
PN1449
MR FAROUQUE: You were there, too, weren't you?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1450
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1451
MR FAROUQUE: You attended all of those meetings, didn't you?
PN1452
THE INTERPRETER: You mean all these meetings?
PN1453
MR FAROUQUE: The meetings where all the workers were present and there is Sonia, there, and she is speaking about the agreement. I that - - -
PN1454
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1455
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Did - at any of those meetings was there any discussion, to your recollection, about what the union said about the agreement, about the contract?
PN1456
THE INTERPRETER: The union only talk about the contract.
PN1457
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But none of the workers ever asked or said anything to Ms Bettega about what the union said about the contract?
PN1458
THE INTERPRETER: There seemed to be one piece of paper, one side - one side was the condition that was given by the company, one side was condition given by the union.
PN1459
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1460
THE INTERPRETER: It seemed to be a piece of paper like that.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1461
MR FAROUQUE: You read a piece of paper like that, did you?
PN1462
THE INTERPRETER: Just a glance.
PN1463
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Just a glance? You must have read through it a little bit?
PN1464
THE INTERPRETER: Just a glance.
PN1465
MR FAROUQUE: Just a little bit of a glance. Okay. Ms Trau, I want you to look at this document, here. Sorry, I only have one copy of this document. I did not propose to rely on it but I feel I must put it to the witness. Is that the document that you saw?
PN1466
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes, yes.
PN1467
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. And you had a quick glance at it, didn't you?
PN1468
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN1469
MR FAROUQUE: And you must have read what the heading was, didn't you? I want you to go to the first page. You must have read that?
PN1470
THE INTERPRETER: I only read those words underlined. We must and vote no.
PN1471
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You read that, didn't you?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1472
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, this is a paper.
PN1473
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1474
THE WITNESS: I got the paper.
PN1475
MR FAROUQUE: And you got that paper?
PN1476
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, I got that paper.
PN1477
MR FAROUQUE: And you were able to read that. You just read it a moment ago, didn't you?
PN1478
THE INTERPRETER: This a ..... letter.
PN1479
MR FAROUQUE: And so you knew that the union was saying "vote no"?
PN1480
THE INTERPRETER: You know here you must vote and I really decided to vote.
PN1481
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But you understood that in this document the union was saying to the workers that they should vote no for the agreement.
PN1482
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know what they think but I, myself, decided, you know, I was going to vote but that is my own decision, I am not going to change - - -
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1483
THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry. I think this is prevaricating. She understands the English perfectly.
PN1484
MR FAROUQUE: Ms Trau - - -
PN1485
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1486
MR FAROUQUE: - - - it is correct, isn't it, I am going to put it to you, quite directly, you knew from that document that the union was saying to the workers, at Epona, vote no to the agreement?
PN1487
THE INTERPRETER: As I said, you know, that whether they are going to vote or not is their business but I, myself, was going to vote.
PN1488
THE COMMISSIONER: That is not the question she is being asked. Look, I am sorry, this is not the question she is being asked. She has been asked the same question several times and I think that she is prevaricating. The question is; from that document, did she understand that the union was saying to workers, whatever she thought that the union was saying to workers vote no to this agreement?
PN1489
THE INTERPRETER: I did not have the heart to know. I didn't even want to know.
PN1490
THE COMMISSIONER: She understood the plain words?
PN1491
THE WITNESS: You must vote, you must vote. They say you - - -
PN1492
THE INTERPRETER: You must vote.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1493
THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry. I have had enough of this.
PN1494
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. I will move on.
PN1495
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't think you need to proceed any further.
PN1496
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, Commissioner, I will move on. I tender that document, Commissioner.
PN1497
PN1498
MR FAROUQUE: Now, Ms Trau, you were - you were present, you said earlier, at a number of meetings where the agreement was discussed, weren't you?
PN1499
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN1500
MR FAROUQUE: And Sonia Bettega spoke at those meetings?
PN1501
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry?
PN1502
MR FAROUQUE: Sonia Bettega spoke at those meetings?
PN1503
THE INTERPRETER: Talk about the contract, you know.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1504
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. And she talked about how the contract would be met, didn't she?
PN1505
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1506
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. And in one of those meetings or in some of those meetings, she said to the workers there would be a secret ballot.
PN1507
THE INTERPRETER: Secret ballot?
PN1508
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. Like - so you understand what a secret ballot is?
PN1509
THE INTERPRETER: I don't understand it.
PN1510
MR FAROUQUE: That the workers would be able to write their vote down on a piece of paper and put it in a box.
PN1511
THE INTERPRETER: She said voted but didn't say write paper or not writing paper.
PN1512
MR FAROUQUE: Do you recall her ever using the words, "a secret ballot"
PN1513
THE INTERPRETER: I can't recall.
PN1514
MR FAROUQUE: Can't you? Now, this meeting was really - it was all - these meetings that you attended, they were all about the agreement, the contract, wasn't it?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1515
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the individual contract.
PN1516
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. And there was a - you knew, didn't you, that when this agreement, when the company was trying to make this agreement with the workers in September and October - - -
PN1517
THE INTERPRETER: Knew what?
PN1518
MR FAROUQUE: You knew that there was no award at that workplace.
PN1519
THE INTERPRETER: What do you mean "award"?
PN1520
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. There was no union conditions documented.
PN1521
THE INTERPRETER: I don't understand.
PN1522
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Do you know of the words, "Clothing Trades Award"?
PN1523
THE INTERPRETER: Every worker's wage.
PN1524
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. Now, Ms Trau, you knew, didn't you, that the union was trying to bring union conditions to Epona, didn't you?
PN1525
THE INTERPRETER: Formerly people talk, I didn't know, but later on when the union came in - at that time to certify, you know, the union came in.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1526
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. And they wanted to certify union conditions. Is that right?
PN1527
THE INTERPRETER: What condition?
PN1528
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. At this - - -
PN1529
THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps if you refer to wages. I think she has a clearer understanding.
PN1530
MR FAROUQUE: Right, okay. The union wanted to make union wages and conditions of employment at Epona.
PN1531
THE INTERPRETER: At that time, as to wages, Sonia gave them a piece of paper. One side is what the factory is over and the other side is what the union wants.
PN1532
MR FAROUQUE: Right. Okay. So you are saying that the company get that out. Is that right?
PN1533
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry?
PN1534
MR FAROUQUE: Is it your evidence that the company gave that out?
PN1535
THE INTERPRETER: Company, you know, offer how much and the other side how much the union wants.
PN1536
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1537
THE INTERPRETER: Piece of paper like that.
PN1538
MR FAROUQUE: Now, at one of these meetings that you went to, Ms Bettega said that if the workers did not agree to Epona's agreement there would be no overtime for workers and the overtime would be sent to Fiji.
PN1539
THE INTERPRETER: I can't recall.
PN1540
MR FAROUQUE: You can't recall that? She may have said it then?
PN1541
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know. I can't remember.
PN1542
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Now, are there a - there are some casual workers at Epona, aren't there?
PN1543
THE INTERPRETER: What?
PN1544
MR FAROUQUE: Do you understand what casual workers are?
PN1545
THE INTERPRETER: Sometimes students on holiday.
PN1546
MR FAROUQUE: Right. Okay. They are on holiday from overseas?
PN1547
THE INTERPRETER: Don't know. Seem to be here from - I know some of them from here and the other ones I don't know.
PN1548
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And they just work extra hours as needed?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1549
THE INTERPRETER: What do you mean "extra hours"?
PN1550
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You know that there are some casual workers. You understand that, don't you?
PN1551
THE INTERPRETER: Last year there was a person's daughter came in to work in our factory
PN1552
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And the factory has some casual workers?
PN1553
THE WITNESS: I don't this one - because this time I go to overseas. After I come back I listen to people so, oh they thought the - - -
PN1554
THE INTERPRETER: - - - I went for holiday. I returned from my holidays and I heard people mention this person's daughter did come into work.
PN1555
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Okay. But you said, a bit earlier, that there are casual workers at Epona who work there on their holidays, students on holidays.
PN1556
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1557
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Okay. Now, there are some part time workers as well, aren't there?
PN1558
THE INTERPRETER: No part time.
PN1559
MR FAROUQUE: No part time?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1560
THE INTERPRETER: Also there are full time - the minute they enter is full time.
PN1561
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Okay.
PN1562
THE INTERPRETER: The minute they come in would be full time.
PN1563
MR FAROUQUE: Now, I want to ask you about the vote. Do you remember that?
PN1564
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1565
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You were present when the vote happened, weren't you?
PN1566
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1567
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And all the workers they were called together to come to the factory floor, weren't they?
PN1568
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1569
MR FAROUQUE: And they were all asked to stand around in a semi circle?
PN1570
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1571
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And Sonia did all the speaking, didn't she?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1572
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1573
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And Robert Cromb said something, didn't he?
PN1574
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the boss did say something.
PN1575
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, the big boss. Yes.
PN1576
THE INTERPRETER: The boss.
PN1577
MR FAROUQUE: He is the owner, isn't he?
PN1578
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1579
MR FAROUQUE: And Sonia gave the instructions about how the voting should happen?
PN1580
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1581
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And she asked people who agreed with the agreement to put their hands up? And some people put their hands up, didn't they?
PN1582
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1583
MR FAROUQUE: And you were one of the people that put your hand up, weren't you?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1584
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I did raise up my hand.
PN1585
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And you had a look around the room at who had their hands up?
PN1586
THE INTERPRETER: I just look at that person at the front.
PN1587
MR FAROUQUE: So you just looked at the front, did you?
PN1588
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1589
MR FAROUQUE: What I suggest to you is that you were in fact looking - you were with Sonia, Mr Cromb and Mr Clarke.
PN1590
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN1591
MR FAROUQUE: You were together with them?
PN1592
THE INTERPRETER: No, no. I stood on one side.
PN1593
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And what I suggest to you is that you were looking directly at the workers?
PN1594
THE INTERPRETER: I was just standing here - I was just standing here looking like that, I didn't look around.
PN1595
MR FAROUQUE: You didn't look around at all?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1596
THE INTERPRETER: I was standing like that, just standing like this.
PN1597
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1598
THE INTERPRETER: I cough at that time. I went to get some water.
PN1599
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So this was the first time that a vote had happened on a contract at Epona, wasn't it? This was the first time this had happened?
PN1600
THE INTERPRETER: No. In the past there was another agreement.
PN1601
MR FAROUQUE: Another contract?
PN1602
THE WITNESS: Yes, another contract before that, a few year ago.
PN1603
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1604
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1605
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But this had happened some years ago, hadn't it?
PN1606
THE INTERPRETER: Many years ago.
PN1607
THE WITNESS: Many ago.
PN1608
MR FAROUQUE: Many years ago?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1609
THE INTERPRETER: But it was very easy. Nothing like this.
PN1610
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1611
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So this was something new, wasn't it, then?
PN1612
THE INTERPRETER: We had a contract in the past.
PN1613
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. But this was quite - - -
PN1614
THE WITNESS: This is second time.
PN1615
THE INTERPRETER: This is the second time.
PN1616
MR FAROUQUE: The second time - but this is more complex, isn't it?
PN1617
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, more complicated.
PN1618
MR FAROUQUE: So you must have been a bit interested about what was happening?
PN1619
THE INTERPRETER: I was so tired, I wasn't interested.
PN1620
MR FAROUQUE: Not interested at all?
PN1621
THE INTERPRETER: Just want to let you know, Chinese just work, we don't have a lot of complication.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1622
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So you weren't - you were a representative of the Chinese workers about this contract, weren't you?
PN1623
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1624
MR FAROUQUE: You must have been interested about how the Chinese workers were going to vote, the people you were representing?
PN1625
THE INTERPRETER: I did not ask their opinion.
PN1626
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So you didn't have a look about to see how people were voting?
PN1627
THE INTERPRETER: The two person following to count, I did not want - - -
PN1628
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So when the people were counting you had a look around, did you?
PN1629
THE WITNESS: Well I look a little bit. Because the first one I don't want to look. The second one because of something, something ..... I look.
PN1630
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So there were two votes?
PN1631
THE WITNESS: Two or three time. The first time I didn't see anything but after I see some time along the number I see. Yes.
PN1632
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, okay. So, the first time that Sonia asked everybody who supports the agreement put up your hands, you didn't - - -
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1633
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1634
MR FAROUQUE: You say you didn't look around?
PN1635
THE WITNESS: This time I didn't, no. I let the people idea, these the people.
PN1636
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1637
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1638
MR FAROUQUE: Now, Ms Trau, Mr Pham says that the first time that the vote was taken, that less people had their hands up than kept their hands down.
PN1639
THE INTERPRETER: I remember the first time they counted and then they counted a second time, there was not a big difference.
PN1640
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So you saw the vote. Is it now your evidence that you saw the vote the first time, did you?
[4.00pm]
PN1641
THE INTERPRETER: The first time, you know, the whole thing can't be said, 40 for example, example, 40, the second time again so it is similar.
PN1642
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. I am not asking you what people, said I am asking you about the number of hands that were up the first time. Mr Pham says there were more hands - sorry, Mr Pham says there were less hands up the first time than down.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1643
THE INTERPRETER: There was a lot, there was a lot.
PN1644
MR FAROUQUE: A lot of hands up you say? So you did look around them and see the first time who voted?
PN1645
THE INTERPRETER: They announced the number, then later on they said it was not correct.
PN1646
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1647
THE INTERPRETER: After the people, all the people see what happened.
PN1648
MR FAROUQUE: So you saw - - -
PN1649
THE COMMISSIONER: I think - sorry, I mean I know that you - I know the answers, but it seems to me that she is relying on the first count, not on what she saw the first time.
PN1650
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. Yes, I am just testing that.
PN1651
THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Can we get to that then?
PN1652
MR FAROUQUE: What I suggest to you, Ms Trau, is that you were looking at people and you were seeing how many hands were up and how many hands were down on the first vote.
PN1653
THE INTERPRETER: The first time I raise up my hand so I did look and then when they count and they announce the number and then it was not correct, that is when I look.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1654
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Were you looking at people while Ms Bettega and Ms Belen Remon were counting the votes?
PN1655
THE INTERPRETER: What was the second name?
PN1656
MR FAROUQUE: Belen Remon.
PN1657
THE INTERPRETER: The second time when it was so confused that is when I looked.
PN1658
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Now, Ms Trau, I want to ask you this. You say that you heard somebody say there were 40 votes the first time, do you?
PN1659
THE INTERPRETER: No, no, I said for example.
PN1660
MR FAROUQUE: You said - - -
PN1661
THE INTERPRETER: I cannot recall how many, it was for example.
PN1662
MR FAROUQUE: For example, you say there were 40 votes the first time?
PN1663
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. And then the second time the number was not the right one. Another person counted.
PN1664
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So you didn't actually hear how many - you didn't hear anybody say how many votes there were after the first vote?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1665
THE INTERPRETER: I heard it but I cannot remember.
PN1666
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You heard it but you can't remember. And so when you said there were 40 votes the first time, you were just saying that as an example of a number.
PN1667
THE INTERPRETER: I just say example 40, and the second time not 40, just an example. I don't know, I can't remember.
PN1668
MR FAROUQUE: You can't remember?
PN1669
THE COMMISSIONER: She can't remember the numbers. She knows that the numbers were different.
PN1670
MR FAROUQUE: But, Ms Trau, what I suggest to you is that just a moment ago you said that Mr Pham was wrong when he says that more hands were down than hands up.
PN1671
THE INTERPRETER: I saw many people raise their hands. I didn't say he was wrong. I just saw many people raise their hands.
PN1672
MR MOLNAR: Commissioner, my recollection was and I can check with my instructor, was that Ms Trau didn't say that Mr Pham was wrong. Commissioner.
PN1673
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1674
MR MOLNAR: My recollection is that she did convey that. The transcript will bear us out.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1675
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I am - my recollection of the evidence at the moment is she says she didn't look the first time, she just put her hand up. Then there was a figure, which she can't remember, announced. Then she looked when they voted again and they came up with a different figure.
PN1676
MR MOLNAR: If the Commission pleases, I will write down and pursue that line and we can review the transcript.
PN1677
THE COMMISSIONER: That is my - that is basically my understanding of what her evidence is.
PN1678
MR MOLNAR: Okay.
PN1679
THE COMMISSIONER: Then they counted a third time.
PN1680
MR MOLNAR: Yes.
PN1681
MR FAROUQUE: Now there was a - you have said there was a second - it is correct, isn't it that there was a second vote, wasn't there?
PN1682
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1683
MR FAROUQUE: And that occurred after Ms - after the first vote had been counted by Ms Bettega and Mrs Remon?
PN1684
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1685
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. And after that first vote what happened was that Ms Bettega went and had a word with Mr Cromb.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1686
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know.
PN1687
MR FAROUQUE: You can't remember that?
PN1688
THE INTERPRETER: I didn't know.
PN1689
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And then after - what I suggest is that after she had spoken to Mr Cromb, Ms Bettega spoke again to the workers, asked them to move out so that she could see them.
PN1690
THE INTERPRETER: Wanted them to move out.
PN1691
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. Did she ask the workers to move out a bit, spread out?
PN1692
THE INTERPRETER: Easier to count.
PN1693
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. No, no, I am asking you - I am not asking you to draw any conclusion from what Ms Bettega said, I am just asking you what she said.
PN1694
THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry, I thought that is what she was saying, that she said, "Just spread out", to make it easier to count.
PN1695
MR FAROUQUE: I understood she was asking - - -
PN1696
THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1697
MR FAROUQUE: I might be correct. I just want to ask you did Ms Bettega ask the workers to move up, to spread out a little bit?
PN1698
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, just spread out, easier to count.
PN1699
MR FAROUQUE: Is that what she said, did she say it would be easier to count?
PN1700
THE INTERPRETER: That is what I guess.
PN1701
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, that is what you guess. Okay, okay.
PN1702
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I was wrong.
PN1703
MR FAROUQUE: You were then looking at that stage, weren't you? You were looking around?
PN1704
THE INTERPRETER: The second time I stopped and had a look. The first time I did look but just .....
PN1705
MR FAROUQUE: So the second time you were looking at all the workers?
PN1706
THE INTERPRETER: I just look around to see why it was so confused.
PN1707
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. It was a bit confused, wasn't it?
PN1708
THE INTERPRETER: The number was confusing.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1709
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And some of the workers were a bit confused as well, weren't they?
PN1710
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know, you know, all I could hear was the number was confused.
PN1711
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Did you speak to anybody else while you were there?
PN1712
THE INTERPRETER: No, I didn't say anything.
PN1713
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And Ms Bettega asked people - - -
PN1714
THE INTERPRETER: I was worried that people will ask me.
PN1715
MR FAROUQUE: Right. Okay, okay, because you didn't know what was going on, did you?
PN1716
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN1717
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. And Ms Bettega asked people to put their hand up again, didn't she?
PN1718
THE INTERPRETER: Whoever agrees to the vote raise up their hand.
PN1719
MR FAROUQUE: And is that the words that you recall her using?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1720
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it is.
PN1721
MR FAROUQUE: So it was whoever - she said, "Whoever agrees to vote, put up your hand"?
PN1722
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1723
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. Was that her exact words?
PN1724
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN1725
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And then some workers put up their hand?
PN1726
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, whoever agrees to raise up their hand.
PN1727
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And people were quite quiet while this was all happening, weren't they?
PN1728
THE INTERPRETER: While listening to what was said.
PN1729
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And they weren't talking amongst themselves. Is that your evidence?
PN1730
THE INTERPRETER: As far as a can remember it was quiet.
PN1731
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, everybody was quiet.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1732
THE INTERPRETER: Everyone was quiet because she was speaking so - counting, so nobody made any noise.
PN1733
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And a number of workers, after she asked them to vote, put their hands up, did they?
PN1734
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1735
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And then Sonia and - Ms Bettega and Ms - Belen ran - and they walked around and counted all the votes.
PN1736
THE INTERPRETER: The last person's name was - sorry?
PN1737
MR FAROUQUE: Ms Remon.
PN1738
THE INTERPRETER: Ms Remon?
PN1739
MR FAROUQUE: Ms Remon, yes.
PN1740
THE INTERPRETER: The first was two and then later on it was three.
PN1741
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So you said the second time three people counted?
PN1742
THE INTERPRETER: Either the second or the third time was three people.
PN1743
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So the second time the vote was done there were two people counting, maybe three, you can't remember?
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1744
THE INTERPRETER: The second time I cannot remember. The third time was three.
PN1745
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. So after the counting was finished the second time, did you look around to see?
PN1746
THE INTERPRETER: I started to look after the second time.
PN1747
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And then is it your evidence that Ms Bettega asked people to raise their hands a third time?
PN1748
THE INTERPRETER: The first time, second time, third time - I don't know whether it is the second or third time.
PN1749
MR FAROUQUE: You don't know if the third time she asked people to put their hands up again?
PN1750
THE INTERPRETER: The second time was sure, but the third time I am not.
PN1751
MR FAROUQUE: You are not sure? Okay.
PN1752
THE INTERPRETER: The second time.
PN1753
MR FAROUQUE: Now you didn't speak to people after the vote, did you, about how the voting was done, did you?
PN1754
THE INTERPRETER: No, no.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1755
MR FAROUQUE: No. You didn't speak to them about the voting process at all, did you?
PN1756
THE INTERPRETER: No, no.
PN1757
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And after - so after the voting process was finished you didn't speak to people about the voting?
PN1758
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN1759
MR FAROUQUE: You didn't speak to other Epona workers about the voting process, did you?
PN1760
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN1761
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. And so it was like what you had done before the vote, you didn't speak to other people, after the vote you didn't speak to other people?
PN1762
THE INTERPRETER: At the beginning everyone opened up the language to read so they all know.
PN1763
MR FAROUQUE: Just so that I am clear I want you to - I want to ask you this question again. After the voting was over, you didn't speak to other Epona workers about the voting process?
PN1764
THE INTERPRETER: No, no. She had already decided.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1765
MR FAROUQUE: Are you absolutely sure about that?
PN1766
THE INTERPRETER: Absolutely sure. A lot of other people were talking things, you know, not important. I don't know.
PN1767
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. I want to take you to paragraph 22 of your witness statement.
PN1768
THE INTERPRETER: The last page?
PN1769
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. Okay. You say there that:
PN1770
On the basis of the discussions I have had with employees of Epona I believe that they understood the process of voting for the Enterprise Agreement.
PN1771
THE INTERPRETER: Because everyone saw the copy of that - everyone got a copy.
PN1772
MR FAROUQUE: A copy of what?
PN1773
THE INTERPRETER: Everyone knows this.
PN1774
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay, everyone know this. Okay, that is what you say, but you say in paragraph 22 of your witness statement that you had discussions with other employees of Epona and that from those discussions you believed that they understood the process of voting.
**** KHIEN TRAU XXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1775
THE INTERPRETER: Everybody - copies mention about this, not about - - -
PN1776
MR FAROUQUE: I am not talking about the terms of the agreement, I am talking about the voting process, Ms Trau, and you know what I am talking about.
PN1777
THE INTERPRETER: After they read this one, whether they want to do it or not, then they vote.
PN1778
MR FAROUQUE: Yes, but you say that you believed - - -
PN1779
THE INTERPRETER: After they read this, whether they want to vote or not they understood.
PN1780
MR FAROUQUE: Okay. You believed that people understood the voting process?
PN1781
THE INTERPRETER: I believed that, you know, before they vote they have to understood this before they voting.
PN1782
MR FAROUQUE: Okay.
PN1783
THE INTERPRETER: Because that is their own language.
PN1784
MR FAROUQUE: Okay, okay. I have no further questions for this witness.
PN1785
**** KHIEN TRAU RXN MR MOLNAR
PN1786
MR MOLNAR: Ms Trau, you have given evidence today about what you do as a supervisor of the workers and Mr Farouque asked you questions about your role as a supervisor. Are you the only supervisor there?
PN1787
THE INTERPRETER: There was another one.
PN1788
MR MOLNAR: Okay. Who is that other one?
PN1789
THE INTERPRETER: Murat.
PN1790
MR MOLNAR: And what does he supervise?
PN1791
THE INTERPRETER: Similar to my duties.
PN1792
MR MOLNAR: Do you supervise particular workers and does Murat supervises other workers?
PN1793
THE INTERPRETER: In the past I was the only one who would supervise. Later on it became more people I could not cope with it, so half of him to supervise, half of myself to supervise.
PN1794
MR MOLNAR: So how did you know which workers you supervised and which workers Murat supervised?
PN1795
THE INTERPRETER: Because they way we sit. This side supervised by myself, this side supervised by Murat.
PN1796
MR MOLNAR: And how many workers do you supervise?
**** KHIEN TRAU RXN MR MOLNAR
PN1797
THE INTERPRETER: About 20.
PN1798
MR MOLNAR: And how many workers does Murat supervise?
PN1799
THE INTERPRETER: About 15.
PN1800
MR MOLNAR: Okay. There has also been evidence here today that you were a representative of the Chinese people during the negotiation discussions.
PN1801
THE COMMISSIONER: Employees, I think, not - what, the people as a whole?
PN1802
MR MOLNAR: Sorry.
PN1803
MR FAROUQUE: There is a large number of Chinese people. It is an onerous responsibility.
PN1804
MR MOLNAR: Yes, that the Chinese employees have thrown up during the negotiation discussions. What is the main reason why you were the representative?
PN1805
THE INTERPRETER: I did not want to represent.
PN1806
MR MOLNAR: Why were you the representative then?
PN1807
THE INTERPRETER: They wanted me and I said no, but they want to push me out.
**** KHIEN TRAU RXN MR MOLNAR
PN1808
MR MOLNAR: Right. Why do you think they wanted you?
PN1809
THE INTERPRETER: They asked them to do it but they refused, so I don't really know why.
PN1810
MR MOLNAR: I have no further questions.
PN1811
THE COMMISSIONER: I just have one more question. A couple of times in your evidence you said if you agree with the contract, you sign it.
PN1812
THE INTERPRETER: It is my own opinion.
PN1813
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. But the process wasn't that people signed the document themselves, was it?
PN1814
THE INTERPRETER: Not signed, agreed to vote.
PN1815
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but people weren't individually asked to sign anything, were they?
PN1816
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN1817
**** KHIEN TRAU FXXN MR FAROUQUE
PN1818
MR FAROUQUE: Just one matter which arises out re-examination. I just want to put this to the witness and I won't prolong it. Ms Trau, were you told by Ms Bettega or some other person in charge that you should be a representative of the workers?
PN1819
THE INTERPRETER: No, no.
PN1820
THE COMMISSIONER: Are we finished with Ms Trau? Yes. Thank you, Ms Trau. Thank you very much for your evidence and thank you to the interpreter as well, Ms Lau.
PN1821
PN1822
THE COMMISSIONER: How long are we going to be with the next witness?
PN1823
MR FAROUQUE: Well, Ms Peterson will be my next witness. I don't know whether - how long do you think it will be? Yes, Commissioner, there is a short statement of Ms Wiles that you do not have, but I can call her now and I don't - she wouldn't take as long as Ms Peterson and obviously it would probably be a more convenient course.
PN1824
THE COMMISSIONER: That might be a good idea then if we can deal with that. Thank you. It is just that I have another matter at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, so we won't be able to start early.
PN1825
MR FAROUQUE: Start early, if the Commission pleases.
PN1826
MR MOLNAR: Could we just have a five minute adjournment? There is - this was only given to me last night.
PN1827
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1828
MR MOLNAR: And there is a matter - a few - a couple of matters here in relation to one of the clients which I just don't have instructions on and they may not be controversial at all, but to be on the safe side I do need to speak to - - -
PN1829
THE COMMISSIONER: All right then. Well, perhaps if we have the five minutes.
PN1830
MR FAROUQUE: I have no objection to that at all.
PN1831
THE COMMISSIONER: And perhaps if you give me a copy of the statement, Mr Farouque, I can have a look at it while we are having that adjournment.
PN1832
MR FAROUQUE: Yes. That would expedite things.
PN1833
THE COMMISSIONER: All right then, we will adjourn for five minutes.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [4.25pm]
RESUMED [4.38pm]
PN1834
PN1835
MR FAROUQUE: Ms Wiles, can you state your full name for the Commission?---Vivienne Lee Wiles.
PN1836
And your address?---47 Anderson St, Newport.
PN1837
Now, Ms Wiles, have you made a statement in this matter?---I have.
PN1838
I want you to have a look at this document. I want you to examine that document. Is that the statement that you made?---Yes, it is.
PN1839
Are there exhibits there, too?---Yes, it is.
PN1840
Is the content of the statement true and correct?---It is.
PN1841
I tender that document.
PN1842
PN1843
MR FAROUQUE: No further questions of the witness.
PN1844
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Molnar?
PN1845
MR MOLNAR: No questions for the witness.
**** VIVIENNE LEE WILES XN MR FAROUQUE
PN1846
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you have a very easy go then, didn't you, Ms Wiles?---Yes.
PN1847
PN1848
THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right. Well, I think we will adjourn at this stage. I am sure you are not going to get through Ms Peterson's evidence in 20 minutes, are we?
PN1849
MR FAROUQUE: Not now, I should imagine.
PN1850
THE COMMISSIONER: No, we are not. And there is nobody else, I think, that we will get through in 20 minutes, is there, who is available?
PN1851
MR FAROUQUE: No. Look, I - the other witness for the company that might take a short time are the witnesses in relation to the vote and I expect given the interest in the vote that might take longer rather than shorter.
PN1852
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, okay. All right. Look, I have a matter listed at 9 am tomorrow morning which is an urgent matter. I have therefore relisted this for 11 tomorrow morning. And hopefully we will at least get through the rest of the evidence tomorrow.
PN1853
MR MOLNAR: I presume we will be a bit quicker tomorrow because I don't think any of the witnesses - yes.
PN1854
THE COMMISSIONER: We won't need an interpreter with any of the witnesses tomorrow? Well, we haven't been notified we need one so I am assuming that we won't.
PN1855
MR MOLNAR: Well, not for Ms Peterson. I presume, my friend, your witnesses in relation to ..... need an interpreter. No, no, we don't need an interpreter so we should move - - -
PN1856
THE COMMISSIONER: We don't need one for Mr Raymond or Ms Christopolous.
PN1857
MR MOLNAR: No.
PN1858
THE COMMISSIONER: Good, okay. All right then, I will adjourn until 11 am tomorrow.
ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 7 FEBRUARY 2003 [4.41pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #A3 CORRESPONDENCE TO TCFUA FROM EPONA PTY LTD DATED 07/01/2003 PN355
CAM NGOC PHAM, SWORN PN467
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FAROUQUE PN467
EXHIBIT #TCFUA2 ORIGINAL STATEMENT OF MR PHAM PN532
EXHIBIT #TCFUA3 SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT PN532
EXHIBIT #TCFUA4 VIETNAMESE TRANSLATION OF EPONA AGREEMENT PN532
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLNAR PN534
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FAROUQUE PN873
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLNAR PN909
WITNESS WITHDREW PN923
KHIEN TRAU, SWORN PN934
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MOLNAR PN934
EXHIBIT #A4 STATEMENT OF MS TRAU PN998
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FAROUQUE PN1006
EXHIBIT #TCFUA5 DOCUMENT PN1498
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLNAR PN1786
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FAROUQUE PN1818
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1822
VIVIENNE LEE WILES, AFFIRMED PN1835
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FAROUQUE PN1835
EXHIBIT #TCFUA6 STATEMENT OF VIVIENNE WILES PN1843
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1848
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