C2001/4579, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 858 (18 March 2003)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 60-70 Elizabeth St SYDNEY NSW 2000
DX1344 Sydney Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER JONES

C2001/4579

STATE RAIL AUTHORITY OF NEW SOUTH WALES

and

AUSTRALIAN RAIL TRAM AND BUS INDUSTRY UNION

Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re rostering for guards - report back

SYDNEY

9.08 AM, THURSDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 2003

Continued from 5.9.02

Hearing continuing

PN350

THE COMMISSIONER: Any changes to the appearances?

PN351

MR DWYER: No, Commissioner.

PN352

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Do you want to lead off, Mr Dwyer?

PN353

MR DWYER: Thank you, Commissioner. Since we were previously before you, Commissioner, and following your recommendation, the parties have met on a number of occasions and, as indicated to the Commission, through the recommendation, we have been forwarding copies of those minutes to the Commission as those meetings have been held. They have been reasonably successful, Commissioner. In the initial stages there were obviously some complaints from the staff adjusting to the new process and what not.

PN354

As the meetings have progressed, the union have expressed some concerns to us in relation to how it has been operating. From the Authority's point, first of all, Commissioner, let me say that the number of swaps have only varied slightly in relation to staff taking swaps but the management of those swaps has been a hell of a lot better, Commissioner, I can say.

PN355

We have satisfied ourselves that we are now being able to monitor staff who are unavailable for a swap arrangement due to award conditions and situations and we have been able to pick a lot of that up and advise staff that, you know, that the can't have a swap because of the award conditions, their availability and so on.

PN356

So the Authority is very happy in relation to the way we have been able to manage it and I would also point out to the Commission that the figures that we are getting through - and we can show the Commission if the Commission so desires - that the swaps have not fallen greatly in relation to the staff being able to make swapping arrangements but we are managing it a lot better. During some of their meetings, Commissioner, the union expressed to the Authority concern in relation arrangements over the weekend. It seemed to be causing some concerns, the amount of time that people - I noticed - that people had to give.

PN357

Following the last meeting, Commissioner, which we forwarded the minutes of to you, we spoke to our rostering officers in an endeavour to slightly change the original agreement that we struck before the Commission to try and make things a little bit easier for staff in relation to notification and, Commissioner, under the date of 25 February - and I will hand the Commission a copy of a document that I forwarded to the unions - after consultation with our rostering officers, we have made an offer to vary the agreement slightly to assist them over the weekend periods.

PN358

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN359

MR DWYER: Commissioner, you will see that - - -

PN360

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want it marked as an exhibit?

PN361

MR DWYER: If you like, Commissioner.

PN362

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. I don't think we have got any exhibits so far, have we? Yes, we have. It will be 11.

EXHIBIT #11 DOCUMENT FORWARDED TO RTBU BY MR DWYER DATED 25/02/2003

PN363

MR DWYER: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, SRA11 is a document dated 25 February addressed to Mr Michael Cartwright, the Divisional Secretary of the Operations Division RTBU signed by myself, Commissioner, and it refers to discussions and proposals to amend the trial swapping of shifts arrangements, as recommended by yourself, for train crew management rostering personnel. It goes on to say:

PN364

SRA is prepared to agree to implement the attached train guards' exchange of shifts agreement...(reads)...Thursday the 27th.

PN365

Commissioner, to make it easier, the attached document to my letter, you will notice there at point 2, Commissioner, we have taken the day, Tuesday, out and replaced it with Monday to make it easier for people to understand what the changes have been. We believe that that assists the staff and also the union in relation to the swapping arrangements and we are quite prepared to go ahead with that, Commissioner. I would point out to the Commission that we did speak to our rostering officers and although they were reluctant to make some change, they were prepared to go this far in trying to assist in bringing the matter to finality but they did point out to us from their view that they wouldn't be prepared to make any further changes to the current arrangements that were now working.

PN366

Commissioner, the Authority will put to you that we are satisfied with the arrangements, we are satisfied with the amendments that we can make to assist the staff. We don't believe we can go any further. We are now managing the swapping arrangements a lot better from a Departmental point of view in relation to our obligations under the award and point out to the Commission that the Authority was taken to the Industrial Magistrate in relation to breach of award over swaps at one stage. Because of the people exchanging shifts, we were weren't able to monitor it as well as what we can now. We are now catching them and advising people that they are not entitled to swap because of award conditions outside the working hours, et cetera, and I would point out, Commissioner, no one has been knocked back for a swap over the last - since the trial started. I think we have made two warnings to a couple of employees that are getting a little bit close.

PN367

All in all, Commissioner, as I said, the swap has not changed greatly in relation to numbers, so we don't believe that the staff are being affected at all. It's just that the new rules that we are playing by, Commissioner, make it a lot better for State Rail in relation to its obligations under the awards and also gives us a better appreciation of what is happening in relation to staff and swaps. If the Commission pleases.

PN368

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you, Mr Dwyer. Yes, Mr Cartwright?

PN369

MR CARTWRIGHT: Just one thing, Commissioner, on the breach of award that Mr Dwyer referred to, that had nothing to do with the swaps at that time. It was a rostering officer giving a person a shift when the rang and asked for a job. It had nothing to do with the swaps at all. I was part of that action.

PN370

The RTBU still has concerns with the document. We do acknowledge there has been movement on it for one day - that's talking about the weekends. We would have like to have been able to do our swaps from the Sunday. As it is now, it still creates a problem although it is marginally better than we had.

PN371

We have also made a request just now with State Rail, if we could do away with the swap forms and make a phone call. The response wasn't very - it wasn't accepted from State Rail but our members still feel they should be able to ring their rostering officer as well. The drivers do have that privilege and the guards still feel they are being left out.

PN372

As for managing the swaps, State Rail always had the ability to manage the swaps but since this action has been taken, they have applied that ability they had before. This document hasn't changed that. The document has not changed the ability to manage the swaps although it is now set out for our guards that clearly what their obligations are more so now, but State Rail always had the ability to manage it.

PN373

We do request that the guards are given the ability to ring for that exchange of shifts and also, if the weekends could again be looked at, although we do acknowledge that there is movement in that area on one day. Our concern - the guards can live with the weekends having their swaps in by Friday but there's still the Monday that's a problem as well. We have moved from the Tuesday. The one extra day would go a lot further in assisting the guards in that area. Thank you.

PN374

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Right, is there anything further?

PN375

MR DWYER: Well, Commissioner, we first came to you some time ago because we weren't able to manage the swaps. We have indicated this morning that the swaps, in relation to the number, has not dropped greatly so therefore we are maintaining the staff are not being disadvantaged in relation to being able to take swaps, it is just that we now have better control of them.

PN376

Commissioner, I am just looking through some statistics here which we can provide. It looks like around about 20 a fortnight are being rejected due to exceeding shift limits, due to being non-available, and so forth. Now, we didn't have the opportunity under the old system to have the time to be able to record these and get this started so we know what is happening out there. And, again, Commissioner, our biggest fear is that unless we have sufficient time to be able to monitor it and to be able to put these figures together, we are in danger of being in breach of award and that is something that we don't want to go down the path of again. Mistakes do happen out there and we are saying, Commissioner, under this arrangement at the moment, firstly, the way it is being done now, we have better control, staff are not being disadvantaged.

PN377

In relation to Mr Cartwright's business about, you know, just wanting to ring up, that is something that we have only just heard in the last ten minutes. The agreement says it must be in writing. It always has been in writing, even under the old agreement and we see no reason to change that. If down the track with different rostering arrangements and different technology that will be brought on board in relation to rostering, that may be somewhere we can discuss that further down the track but at this point in time, Commissioner, we would be putting to you that the agreement, or the trial, has been successful, State Rail is comfortable in that we now have control and manage the swaps and, as we pointed out previously before you, Commissioner, it is not an award right we have got, it is a privilege that we grant and we don't want to take that privilege off them. They haven't been disadvantaged in relation to being able to swap, it is just that we now have some regulation in there in relation to making their applications to swap and we can monitor whether or not a person is entitled or not.

PN378

As I said earlier, Commissioner, we are still averaging something about 20 a week we have knocked back because people are not available and they should know they are not available for a swap. They are still putting their applications in and under this process we can monitor it and we think we can catch them and advise them, no, you can't do that.

PN379

So, Commissioner, from our point of view, it is working properly, we don't see anybody being disadvantaged in relation to it, we have moved again at the union's request in relation to the timing, something that we had to go to our rostering officers and discuss with them, negotiate with them and they have agreed to make this movement to the agreement to try and assist the guards but they are indicating that the way it is working at the moment, they are more comfortable, they have more time to look at things, to be able to do their job properly, for want of a better word, and I do not think, Commissioner, that the authority, even from a management point of view, if we wanted to move we would be having some industrial problems with our own staff in relation to our rostering officers, the same reason we came here before.

PN380

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Dwyer. We will go into a conference.

PN381

MR DWYER: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN382

THE COMMISSIONER: Any objection to a conference?

PN383

MR CARTWRIGHT: No.

PN384

MR GRIFFIN: No, Commissioner.

PN385

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Firstly, I can say now, I think - we are at the stage where I can say it - I have never been comfortable with the argument about the notification for the Tuesday rostering - over the weekend. I say that I have never been comfortable with the system as it was proposed by the...... I can't - and there is an improvement on it now - and I can't see why it didn't..... The other thing is that being made in writing, which has been raised, I can see the reasons why it needs to be made in writing, but can anyone tell me why there needs to be a difference between the guards and the train drivers?

PN386

..........: Not really, no.

PN387

THE COMMISSIONER: Don't stand, we are in conference.

PN388

MR ROSEWORN: One of the reasons, Mr Commissioner, is - the main reason - is in this document here and it is showing us about all the people not available or who have had more than one swap and so forth. They do it in writing and we're busy at the time you take it over and you might not be to grab the roster straight away so you just write it on a piece of paper and do it afterwards and we would be getting back into that trap where we can't monitor the situation.

PN389

Now, the drivers do it. The drivers have been doing it for years - that's the ETR drivers. So, the inter city drivers have applications - I do the inter city rosters - and they do have applications. It is the ETR drivers who don't. Now, they don't seem to be having a problem over there but with the guards side of it, with the number of swaps, whether the ETR has got the same number of swaps, I don't know, because there is never any record kept on how many swaps they do, but they do have an extra staff member there. They have got four people to do the ETR compared to three doing the guards' side and this way, as we said, we can control it - not control it - we are managing it now and when the swaps come in, if we are busy, we can put them on the side there, finish what we are doing and then come back and do the swaps and make sure they are okay, or they are available or, you know, instrument the rules and that. But I would be dead set against over the phone swapping. Like, I used to have it on my side and it creates a lot of problems. You have got check back if someone rings up and they say, "Oh, yeah, I rang you on Tuesday and swap here and that", you've got no check on them. With the swap forms, you have got a check on it all the time.

PN390

THE COMMISSIONER: There is no security for the employee in that position either if, say, the roster clerk has forgotten about it or a note hasn't been taken.

PN391

MR ROSEWORN: That's what I mean, it puts both sides - - -

PN392

THE COMMISSIONER: Yet, truthfully the guard may have put the change in by telephone. You, as the guard, have got no verification of it and the SRA have got no verification of it either. That is why I said I can accept why it is in writing but I still want a reason given to me why there should be a difference between how the guards are treated and how the train drivers are treated. I think what simply you are saying to me, okay, you have got unknown additional staff, if you like, handling the train drivers, therefore you are able to resolve it but the second thing, which is probably the most important, is that you are not getting the incidents of abuse of the scheme.

PN393

MR ROSEWORN: That is definitely correct.

PN394

THE COMMISSIONER: So, therefore.....

PN395

MR ROSEWORN: I mean, and that is why we came here in the first place with that old document that no one could really understand - I think everyone here would agree that no one could understand that old document - and that is what brought us here because we were having so many problems with it and different interpretations and that is why we came up and we have got a document now, and it's there in black and white and we can all understand it and that's a safeguard for the guards and for our staff at SRA as well and that's the part that I really like about it, is that it's a safeguard for both sides.

PN396

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, as I said, I can see the reason why it's there and why there is a need for it, because it is, as I said, protection for both sides but I just wanted it explained to me why there is a difference between the guards and the train drivers.

PN397

MR DWYER: Under the old agreement too, Commissioner, it always had to be in writing for the guards but the drivers had never had. The problem hasn't arisen, as John says, with the drivers. If it was to arise and we started to have problems, obviously we would be changing what the arrangements are but at the moment there just seems to be a culture out there that seems to be with the drivers that they just do what they have done for years.

PN398

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN399

MR DWYER: So, of course, you know, we don't wish to change it, if it is working okay.

PN400

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any chance of saying in 12 months down the road seeing how it is working - if the swaps are building up?

PN401

MR DWYER: Well, as I said earlier, Commissioner, we are bringing new technology in, in relation to our rostering and our scheduling arrangements, and once that comes on board it may be we can have another look at whether they have got to put it in writing or we can change thing again. We are quite happy to examine it once that new technology comes on board. If we can change it to make it better for the guards and also be able to manage it as well as what we can do now, by all means, we change it.

PN402

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Do you have anything to add, Mr Cartwright?

PN403

MR CARTWRIGHT: Yes, Commissioner, we still have, as I said before, concerns about the weekends. That is a concern. We also have another section now; the trainer guards, who - they are our guards who train new guards but they have problems with their swapping arrangements. It is going to be different to this document - a little bit different because of the needs of the trainees. I think there is something that has to be added to this document as well. There was rostering staff was to be using their own interpretation of what they could do and they weren't being treated fairly.

PN404

As for the drivers, there has never been any check on any problems that they have. They don't record any of their swaps, as such, there is nothing to say whether they have had problems or not and they do have extra staff to manage the drivers which is one of the reasons the guards have always felt they have been treated as second class. It is a perception, may be, but it is out there amongst the work force.

PN405

Mr Dwyer said there is different technology coming through. That's been coming through for a number of years and I just wonder how many years before the guards will have access to it to make it more easier for weekend swaps? That is a concern we do have as well.

PN406

THE COMMISSIONER: Any ideas on that? Any suggestions? Yes, Mr Griffin?

PN407

MR GRIFFIN: In relation to the technology, Mr Commissioner, we are currently just putting it through our.....section now. We hope to go into a trial for our rostering area and our rostering process next month and the month after but getting out to the depots physically to be able to assist in the management of swaps, I can't see that happening for about 24 months at least but it is a process that we are going through, introducing technology into our.....and our rostering systems.

PN408

THE COMMISSIONER: 24 months seems a long time.

PN409

MR GRIFFIN: Possibly longer.

PN410

THE COMMISSIONER: Right I have re-checked the breadth of coverage that the Act provides and - I think I need comments before.

PN411

MR QUINN: I would just like to say that the drivers were issued with the same restraints as us and then they went into - they didn't have to come down here and argue it out. They gave away a couple of minor rights and all of a sudden it was okay to be - to ring up again, where every time we have asked for any extensions, it seems to be really hard to do any change or anything and it seems one meeting with the other side of the train crew and everything was okay, they went back to normal.

PN412

THE COMMISSIONER: What the SRA is saying though, the drivers have never had anything but the telephone.

PN413

MR QUINN: But they were issued with the same as this. It wasn't exactly the same but it was - - -

PN414

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but the SRA are saying that the history is the drivers have never had to do anything else but telephone in and from their aspect, that system has worked and hasn't been abused.

PN415

MR QUINN: Well, we don't know, do we?

PN416

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that's what SRA are telling me and they have got ways of checking it, I presume.

PN417

MR QUINN: But we are supposed to be train - - -

PN418

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, there will always be someone who will try to abuse something.

PN419

MR QUINN: We are supposed to be train crew and it is like an apprenticeship now, you go onto the stations, into the signal boxes and then out as guards and then onto a driver. So you are virtually - we're all together and all of a sudden we've got two different methods for some reason. Like, today, I have to send in a form, tomorrow I become a driver and I can ring up. I'm still the same person and why shouldn't it be all the same?

PN420

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that's the reason why I raised the question and to my mind - or my view is, that the question has been answered on account of there is the staff in the rostering area to handle it. Put that aside for one minute, it seems to me that the SRA is saying that their situation with the drivers is that they don't have the - or don't seem to have the problems they have with the guards - had with the guards - I use the past tense - - -

PN421

MR QUINN: But is the problem the paperwork?

PN422

THE COMMISSIONER: Because now they seem to be able to manage the situation.

PN423

MR QUINN: Because we have - after we fax this in we have got to ring up anyway. That's part of the agreement.

PN424

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, well, I think it protects you just as much as it protects the SRA. My Associate here can accuse me of taking messages over the phone if she is not there and me not giving it to her - I had that yesterday - but, you know, that's a risk you run when you take a phone message from somebody or give a phone message to somebody as well.

PN425

MR QUINN: As far as management only found out ten minutes ago, that's not quite right. When we were having our - I think it was - monthly meetings, we did bring it up; why couldn't we incorporate this into the trial. And we were told no, because it's been written out and the way it was written out we couldn't change the trial around so it's not as if we just thought it up as were coming down here, it was more that it was brought up on a number of occasions; why can't we trial this.

PN426

MR DWYER: We would probably debate that, Commissioner.

PN427

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, be that as it may, I still feel that a form in writing is protection for both sides. I honestly feel that.

PN428

MR QUINN: It just seems that we seem to be - I don't know - a bit more fiercely treated than other sections of the train crew and the train crew is supposed to be a train crew, not us and them.

PN429

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Dwyer, you were saying to me that there is another area of the SRA where it is in writing as well?

PN430

MR DWYER: What I was saying, Commissioner, was in the previous agreement that none of us could understand with the guards, it was in writing there, so it has always been in writing for the guards.

PN431

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but you were saying there was another section where it is in writing as well?

PN432

MR DWYER: I'm sorry?

PN433

THE COMMISSIONER: You were saying there is another section?

PN434

MR ROSEWORN: On the inter city drivers.

PN435

MR DWYER: On the inter city drivers, yes. I'm sorry, Commissioner, yes. So the only people that don't put it in writing are our electric train drivers in the metropolitan area. Our inter city drivers, which we've probably got a couple of hundred - about three hundred inter city drivers - they put it in writing and always have done, as I understand.

PN436

MR ROSEWORN: Yes, we had trouble about five or six years ago and so to stop the arguments about whether they got their swap in or whether they didn't - and that is what we were just talking about here now - we said, righto, we go the unions, we met and got an agreement drawn up to say they have got to put it in writing and we haven't had any problems since.

PN437

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, my view on the weekend, I think that is satisfactory. I think you have moved about as far as you can go. But I think the in writing situation can be looked in, say, 12 months time to see how it appears to be going. If the system, as it currently is here in this agreement - or proposed agreement - is acceptable, and works well during the 12 month period and.....then maybe you can look at the in writing situation.

PN438

MR DWYER: We will have a look at it, Commissioner. As I said, we are quite happy with the way it is working but if there is someone that we can change it to help the guards, by all means, we will, if and when we get the technology or something else comes along that we can assist, we will.

PN439

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, well, I think we - - -

PN440

MR QUINN: Just - there's a couple of - we are supposed to be - if we are going to go down with this, there is supposed to be the non-grey area. Item number 4 - - -

PN441

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, do you want to talk about it between the two groups first?

PN442

MR DWYER: I haven't heard about it.

PN443

THE COMMISSIONER: I will give you about ten minutes.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [9.34am]

RESUMED [9.52am]]

PN444

THE COMMISSIONER: During the break we went into conference, I raised several issues with the parties and we have had frank discussion on that and subsequent to that I had a brief adjournment to allow the parties to discuss further the document that they put to the Commission today which is SRA11 and it is agreed that there will be changes to that document and a new document will be prepared, signed by the parties, once they reach agreement, and a copy of that will be forwarded to the Commission to put on my file. Having said that, I don't think there is anything further. The matter now waits for the data to support the new agreement and then I will close the file. The Commission stands adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [9.53am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #11 DOCUMENT FORWARDED TO RTBU BY MR DWYER DATED 25/02/2003 PN363