C2004/2325, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 1090 (24 March 2004)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 6390
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN

C2004/2325

DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES

and

THE COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC
SECTOR UNION

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re alleged bans in respect of Child
Protection and other areas

MELBOURNE

11.00 AM, THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2004

PN1

MR T. LEE: I appear for the Department of Human Services and also appearing with me today is MS G. CALLISTER and MR D. EYRE-WALKER from the Industrial Relations Victoria.

PN2

MR R. RICHARDSON: I appear in this matter for the CPSU.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well this matter has been brought on urgently at your request, Mr Lee, so what is the problem?

PN4

MR LEE: Thank you. Thank you, your Honour and our thanks to the Commissioner for bringing this matter on at such short notice. The reason that we have asked for it to be brought on so quickly is we have a fairly serious issue in Bendigo. Part of our operation of the Department of Human Services is the child protection operation. The child protection operation operates out of a range of regions. The matter before us today is distinctly Bendigo although it has recently come to my attention we have some additional issues in an area of housing, but I will deal with the issue of child protection as the most immediate of concern to us.

PN5

It is of concern to us, your Honour, because it has an impact on some of the most vulnerable clients of the department, these clients being children who are being notified to the department as being at risk and the impact of the industrial bans that are the subject matter this morning, are having an impact on the ability of the department to be able to provide the service that we are compelled to provide to protect the - - -

PN6

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the nature of the bans, Mr Lee?

PN7

MR LEE: Perhaps if I - to deal - to go directly to that, your Honour, if I could tender a list. The bans are listed there. The listing is from a notice of industrial action that was received by the department with the required amount of notice.

PN8

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When was that received?

PN9

MR LEE: That was received on Tuesday of last week.

PN10

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is before the settlement in principal of the issues between the union and - - -

PN11

MR LEE: That is correct, your Honour.

PN12

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - the government, yes.

PN13

MR LEE: That is correct. The notification indicated that the bans would take effect from 8.30 am on Tuesday, 9 March. Now the industrial action there is listed. It includes industrial action that applies to juvenile justice. That action was not implemented so we do not have an issue there. We just have an issue in relation to the child protection area in Bendigo.

PN14

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now where do I see the bans in relation to that?

PN15

MR LEE: Under "Intake", so part way down we have "Case Load Ceilings as Listed Below". If you were about six lines down the page. So there is a single sentence "Case Load Ceilings as Listed Below".

PN16

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, yes.

PN17

MR LEE: Okay, and then under "Intake":

PN18

Case load for intake workers 8 notifications. Team leaders will not carry notifications. Unit manager will not carry notifications.

PN19

Under "Response" - so intake is the phone calls coming in, your Honour, perhaps a teacher notifying that they consider a child a risk. The intake is the receipt of the phone call and the establishment of a file on a particular person, particular child. We then have "Other Bans that Apply to Response" to "Case Management" and to the "Adolescent Protective Team". Now without listing through all of those, your Honour, they all go to the same nature of the ban, that is a limit on the amount of work that people undertake.

PN20

Now what impact that is having is that we are running up to the limits being set by the ban and it means that we have a situation where we have now 22 - 27 cases at this present time as we stand here before you, that are outside of the industrial ban limit, so there is 27 cases in intake that are not being looked at by the staff and management are doing their best to try and cover the requirement to follow up those notifications. But this is far from satisfactory situation to put it mildly, your Honour, and something that we want remedied.

PN21

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What have you done by way of talking to the CPSU to have these bans lifted?

PN22

MR LEE: We have made representations to the CPSU. In particular as part of the reason we are here, your Honour, there seems to be some confusion that I am wanting to clear up one way or the other this morning. I will tender another document.

EXHIBIT #1 SUMMARY OF INFORMATION OF CHILD PROTECTION WORK BANS IN PLACE AT BENDIGO

PN23

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And you have just handed me a joint statement by the Victorian Government and the CPSU in settlement of the issues between the parties, I take it?

PN24

MR LEE: That as I understand it and it is the nub of the issue today, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #2 JOINT STATEMENT BY THE VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT AND CPSU IN SETTLEMENT OF THE ISSUES BETWEEN THE PARTIES

PN25

MR LEE: The heading of this, one would have thought, is self explanatory, that there has been a settlement. My instructions are from the central agencies, Mr Eyre-Walker's purpose being here today is to be able to confirm or deny, if necessary, that the history of this matter in recent days is a simple one. That there was an in principal agreement reached before the Industrial Relations Commission headed up by Commissioner Gay on the Friday evening of last week.

PN26

As part of that settlement it was agreed that no new industrial act that had been notified that had not yet take place would be implemented. Now, on the Friday evening, your Honour, we were in a situation where these bans that are the subject matter before you today, were not in place. They were notified to take place on the Tuesday morning. There were bans that were forecast to be implemented in juvenile justice on the Saturday morning. Those bans were not implemented in accordance with the agreement that was reached before the Commission on the Friday evening.

PN27

However, somewhat to our surprise, in Bendigo the bans were implemented on the Tuesday morning. Now, I go to exhibit 2, your Honour, exhibit 2 was promulgated by both parties, the CPSU and the government. Was the subject of extensive media coverage indeed with the Minister for Industrial Relations making statements about it, the Premier making statements about the agreement in the parliament and it is clear in its terms that an agreement has been reached on a new enterprise agreement for the Victorian Police Service; it is clear in its terms as to what the nature of the agreement is, going to the pay increases and additional employment benefits and in particular, I refer to the very last sentence on the second page of the document, your Honour, which states:

PN28

The CPSU will recommend the lifting of all industrial action across the DPS from today.

PN29

Now my first position is, your Honour, that these bans should never have gone on. They should never have taken place because agreement was reached and that is the nature, to go back to your original question, have we had some discussions with the CPSU, well yes we have. The CPSU have indicated to us that, "Yes, this is the communique and that bans are to be lifted", but there has been mixed messages coming from the CPSU and our purpose of being here today is to get one clear message from them, if we can, and that is the mixed messages have been along the lines of the bans will be lifted at appropriate times when meetings can be held, etcetera, etcetera.

PN30

Particularly in this sector, this is an unacceptable process. We need relief from the action right now and what I am looking for from the CPSU is a statement from them today and I would ideally like it endorsed as an appropriate action by the Commission that this action be ceased immediately.

PN31

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Lee.

PN32

MR LEE: If the Commission pleases.

PN33

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let us see what Mr Richardson has to say about it.

PN34

MR RICHARDSON: If the Commission pleases, there is a few more matters that need to be raised to put this into some context. Firstly, the agreement, I understand at the request of the Victorian Government was embargoed until 12.30 on Tuesday, and the final wording of the joint statement, I understand, wasn't concluded until 12.10 on that day. Now my understanding and I wasn't present at the meeting on the Friday before the Commission, the specific request that was made by the government was to take action against the bans that were due to be implemented from Melbourne Juvenile Justice Centre commencing the following day, and a meeting was held at the Melbourne Juvenile Centre and those bans were forestalled to allow the completion of the documentation as per the end hour of 12.30 in the afternoon on the Tuesday.

PN35

Now, I don't know what was being relied on in Bendigo, but where the matter we believe went off the rails, was that at approximately 9 am, Ms Glenda Jenkins - - -

PN36

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: On which day?

PN37

MR RICHARDSON: On the Tuesday.

PN38

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, who is Ms Jenkins?

PN39

MR RICHARDSON: She is a senior manager in the Bendigo region.

PN40

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN41

MR RICHARDSON: Said that - called people to a meeting and told them that all of the bans were not being - called the delegate to a meeting and told them that all of the bans were off and that it wasn't proceeding and that the delegate said "Well she had had no notification because we were honouring the embargo that had been requested" and the delegate indicated that she would contact the union. At 10 am another manager, Connie Forbes, called a meeting with the three delegates at which she produced a copy of the statement and the heads of agreement as they were earlier in that day and said that all the bans should therefore be off.

PN42

At this stage the initial delegate, Cheryl Weeks, who had been spoken to had not been able to contact the organiser, but in keeping with the embargo, all of the industrial officers had been circulated, here's an outline of the agreement, this is confidential until at least 12.30 this afternoon. Now, we understand that at that meeting with the delegates, a number of aspersions were made about the union not keeping members up to speed with what was happening and the union was currently meeting with the Minister and it was all being implemented and it is all being done behind your back.

PN43

So the delegates were somewhat confused. They eventually got on to the industrial officer at about 11.50. The industrial officer involved was at a Woman's Day dinner at which the branch secretary - - -

PN44

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: At 11.50 in the morning?

PN45

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, they were just sitting - - -

PN46

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good dinner, yes, okay.

PN47

MR RICHARDSON: And was told that they had been told locally that Karen Batt was in a meeting with Rob Hulls and that all was detailed and they were told "Well that is not as we understand it. There is going to be a press statement by the Minister at 12.30 today and we will be contacting you as soon as possible after that". At 1.45 the details were sent out on the e-mail system by our communications officer.

PN48

In discussion with the delegates about lifting of the bans, the delegates said that given all of the confusion which we say was largely created by the pre-emptive actions that took place in the morning, that they wanted to have a meeting so that people could hear the full story collectively, and that meeting is scheduled for 12.30 today and the recommendation will be that the bans will be lifted. Now that view has been expressed to Mr Lee on at least two occasions, I understand, by Mr Walton, the assistant secretary, so I think we are here about something that has been guaranteed by the assistant secretary and will be delivered in a little over an hour. If the Commission pleases.

PN49

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I can't for the life of me understand why bans can be put on so quickly and it takes so long to get them off. You gave me a whole history of what happened on Tuesday morning. It is now nearly lunchtime on Thursday and the bans are still on. Mr Lee they are going to come off in an hour. I don't think we need to do any more. I will be available this afternoon to sit again if needs be if those bans haven't come off at 12.30.

PN50

MR LEE: Thanks I would appreciate that indulgence. I would just point out to the Commission and which I didn't do in my opening statement for Mr Richardson to respond, but there has been two union meetings since these bans have gone on and both times the - - -

PN51

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't want to know any more detail at the moment. We can't do more than wait until 12.30. If that meeting hadn't been scheduled for then, we would have been lucky to get them off at 12.30. If they are not off, Mr Richardson, we will be back here this afternoon. Okay, so make sure that you are contactable please and I expect not to hear from either of the parties today but if they are not off, we will be back here this afternoon. Anything else?

PN52

MR LEE: There is one other matter and that is there are some housing bans as well which are not in the same - to be clear, not in the same area of magnitude and impact, but nevertheless are having an effect. The bans shouldn't be on. My instructions are that there is a union meeting to be held tomorrow. There was going to be a meeting next week. Do you have any instructions on that?

PN53

MR RICHARDSON: No, I don't because we - - -

PN54

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, well again, Mr Richardson are you the appropriate person for Mr Lee to speak with about the housing bans?

PN55

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

PN56

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, well - - -

PN57

MR RICHARDSON: If Mr Lee wants to specify we had a meeting this morning. We are just taking the bans off in the areas that people - and there is a difficult - attempting to do it by e-mail because people are not at a base and don't necessarily have immediate access to their e-mails. We had a meeting this morning. We are unaware of any other bans in human services that have not been lifted, but if Mr Lee wants to get any specific details, I would pursue that.

PN58

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, and I would appreciate it if you would pursue it this afternoon and not wait until the meeting that is scheduled for tomorrow morning. The should be able to be got off by e-mail or by telephone calls.

PN59

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

PN60

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I mean we have got an agreement between the government and the union. There shouldn't be any bans at all. Okay.

PN61

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

PN62

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will adjourn and as I repeat, I am available at very short notice if the bans don't come off.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.20am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #1 SUMMARY OF INFORMATION OF CHILD PROTECTION WORK BANS IN PLACE AT BENDIGO PN23
EXHIBIT #2 JOINT STATEMENT BY THE VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT AND CPSU IN SETTLEMENT OF THE ISSUES BETWEEN THE PARTIES PN25