C2002/5425, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 1313 (5 April 2004)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 6564

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER SIMMONDS

C2002/5425
C2002/5426
C2001/6183
C2001/5206

AUSTRALIAN MUNICIPAL,
ADMINISTRATIVE, CLERICAL
AND SERVICES UNION

and

BELGRAVIA LEISURE PTY LIMITED
and OTHERS

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re wages and conditions of employment

VICTORIAN LOCAL AUTHORITIES
INTERIM AWARD 1991

Application under section 113 of the Act
by the Australian Municipal, Administrative,
Clerical and Services Union to vary the above
award re the making of the Victorian Local
Authorities Interim (Roping-in) Award No 1 of
2001

MELBOURNE

10.20 AM, WEDNESDAY, 24 MARCH 2004

Continued from 18.9.03

PN121

THE COMMISSIONER: Are there any changes to appearances?

PN122

MR HARVEY: I can't remember, Commissioner, but in any case, I appear on behalf of the Australian Services Union and with me is MR B. PARKINSON.

PN123

THE COMMISSIONER: No, there are no changes, unless Mr Parkinson is making an appearance. I think he might be - - -

PN124

MR HARVEY: Well, I am appearing with Mr Parkinson this morning, Commissioner.

PN125

THE COMMISSIONER: That is probably the change.

PN126

MR PARKINSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN127

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks. Who wishes to - - -

PN128

MR HARVEY: I have sort of appointed myself, Commissioner, I think.

PN129

THE COMMISSIONER: You requested the listing.

PN130

MR HARVEY: Yes, yes, Commissioner. Thank you. Commissioner, we appreciate the Commission re-listing this matter this morning. It is a while since this matter has been before the Commission and we thought it was appropriate to come back and to advise the Commission as to where we were with this matter. We have spent the time since the matter was last before yourself, Commissioner, very wisely and the parties have continued to meet on a regular basis to discuss all aspects of a proposed award to cover employees in this industry and I will preface my remarks, Commissioner, about where we were up to by saying of course all the discussions between the parties up to this point have been without prejudice.

PN131

But on that basis and as recently as this morning we had a further meeting before the Commission hearing and we have narrowed the issues between us very dramatically so that I could say that at this point without taking the Commission to the specific matters at issue we have largely agreed upon a classification structure. At the moment we agree on all positions in that classification structure subject to some sort of more detailed being done about fully defining them, but we are agreed basically on all positions in the classification structure bar one.

PN132

So that is an extremely positive development and we are agreed on all the rates of pay in the bottom half of the classification structure but not yet at the top half and the parties are considering, you know - well, we are having further discussions about that in an attempt to resolve those issues. But with regard to therefore what is a key element of any award, we are very close to agreement and the union is hopeful that we will be able to reach agreement and not to have bring any matters with regard to classification structure to the Commission for arbitration, either conciliation and/or arbitration, but that is still possible at this stage if we can't resolve the outstanding matters.

PN133

But we are extremely close in terms of classification structure, Commissioner. We have also reached again, you know, without prejudice agreement on, I think it is fair to say, all the substantive matters with regard to conditions of employment. There are a number of, I should say, relatively minor matters outstanding but on key issues relating to terms of employment, hours and things like that the parties have reached an agreement and not only in principle but actually on words which would apply.

PN134

So again there is very and deep level of agreement about those matters between the parties at the moment. We believe that as a result of discussions we have just had this morning, Commissioner, that within a month and certainly by the end of April we should be able to provide to the Commission a draft of a proposed award which would be a draft consent award at this stage if we resolve all the matters, or, you know, 95 per cent of the consent award and be in a position then to indicate to yourself, Commissioner, what any outstanding matters might be that require the assistance of the Commission by way of conciliation and/or arbitration.

PN135

But as I have indicated, Commissioner, those matters, if any, at that stage should be relatively few. The parties have agreed to meet again on I think it is Monday, 5 April, for further discussions to try and resolve the issues with regard to the classification structure and should be able some time after that date to put a draft to you. There is one other issue, Commissioner, which may yet prove a stumbling block, we hope not, but that is the interplay between the introduction of a new award and impact on companies operating in the industry now in terms of their existing contracts and work that they are performing.

PN136

So there are some implementation of the award issues which we still need to work through, but the parties are endeavouring to attempt to do that. That is obviously a significant issue for both the employers but also the union as to the operation of a proposed award. So there are some critical issues there that we need to deal with as well.

PN137

However, you know, in the spirit that we are going on, we are continuing our discussions now, we again hope to reach a position which would be acceptable to both parties and if we can do that, Commissioner, then we propose to put a draft award to yourself because obviously the award when we get to that point will have to meet the various principles of the Commission including the first award principles and the Commission will have to be satisfied that it meets the Commission's principles as to properly fixed minimum rates of pay and so on and so forth and other standards of the Commission, so we would like to give the Commission some time to have a look at it.

PN138

But I think that is, subject to what my colleagues at the other end of the table may wish to say, from the union's point of view that is where we are. The union is pleased at this point, even though it has taken a long time to get to this point, but we are pleased with the continuing progress and that we have narrowed any outstanding issues to a relatively small number, although one or two of them still could be critical to the whole process.

PN139

But we would, as I said, Commissioner, anticipate being in a position by the end of April, given that Easter at the beginning of April, to give you a draft and we would suggest that the matter be re-listed some time before the end of April for a sort of further report back, but at that stage we would be indicating to the Commission what any stumbling blocks were, if any remained at that time that we would require the Commission's assistance with. If the Commission pleases.

PN140

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Harvey, I am just looking at the transcript of the last time this matter was formally before the Commission in which time you said that the union had sort of indicated to the employers that it wanted to have the matter resolved one way or other before the end of the year.

PN141

MR HARVEY: Yes.

PN142

THE COMMISSIONER: I think the year you were referring to must have been the financial year.

PN143

MR HARVEY: No, it certainly was my objective, Commissioner, to get it resolved by the end of last year for a number of reasons, one of which I have just revealed to the employers, but that didn't happen. We did work quite hard in December trying to get that done but we needed a long time over January to think and this is the union's point of view, to think about the issues and the classification structure, but I think ultimately that was time well spent because we have made very significant in terms of that classification structure. But yes, Commissioner, my objective was the end of last year.

PN144

THE COMMISSIONER: So it is now the financial year, is it?

PN145

MR HARVEY: It is now the financial year, yes. Thank you.

PN146

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Eberhard.

PN147

MR EBERHARD: Commissioner, I don't really have much to add apart from what Mr Harvey has stated before you today. I think from the clients that I represent, or the members that I represent, the most important potential clause in the award is the interaction of the award and when does the award operate and I think Mr Harvey has indicated that we need to have some further discussions. There has been a form of words proposed in that regard. I think the parties need to more formally sit down and consider that and make considerations in regards to that and come up with a far tighter set of words than what we have proposed before. But with respect to all other matters I would concur with what Mr Harvey has put to you today. If the Commission pleases.

PN148

THE COMMISSIONER: You have given some thought I presume - is it 1 January that the Victorian legislation starts to have effect, 1 January next year?

PN149

MR EBERHARD: Of 2005?

PN150

THE COMMISSIONER: Mm.

PN151

MR EBERHARD: We have. That is a question has been raised and I suppose from our point of view if an application is made to make the prospective award common rule, well, so be it.

PN152

THE COMMISSIONER: Or some other award the common rule. That is my concern.

PN153

MR EBERHARD: I certainly anticipate that given what Mr Harvey has said and given our intent - - -

PN154

THE COMMISSIONER: But it mightn't be this organisation.

PN155

MR EBERHARD: No, but we would anticipate that this award would applicable prior to that date anyway. We certainly hope so.

PN156

MR EBERHARD: Everyone has got a lot of hope. Ms Moore.

PN157

MS MOORE: Thank you, Commissioner. On behalf of the YMCA I don't think that we have anything further to add, only to say I didn't quite hear Mr Harvey properly but I thought he asked for another report back to be listed during April, is that correct, or after the end of April?

PN158

THE COMMISSIONER: I thought it was more than that.

PN159

MS MOORE: Among other things, Commissioner. Could I just get that point clarified?

PN160

MR HARVEY: Sorry, I can't remember exactly what I said now. But if we can get the Commission to draft - - -

PN161

THE COMMISSIONER: I think you said as a consequence of discussions by the end of April 2004 we will have a draft consent award if matters are resolved, or something that has got about 95 per cent of the outstanding matters for conciliation or arbitration if necessary.

PN162

MR HARVEY: Yes. That is right, Commissioner.

PN163

THE COMMISSIONER: I think Ms Moore mightn't have the same optimism as you have got.

PN164

MR HARVEY: No, no, then we should have a further report back at the end of April, if that is acceptable to the other end of the table; if we get the document to you a week or something before then, Commissioner, so you have had a chance to look at it. That would be our intention.

PN165

MS MOORE: Yes, Commissioner, that was my only outstanding point. The parties have had discussions about having a reasonably finalised draft document to you by the end of April and I was just for that reason querying the logic of having a report back sort of at the same time. But if it is going to be after the document has gone to you, Commissioner, then it makes sense.

PN166

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think we will have a report back at the end of April and we will see where you are at.

PN167

MS MOORE: Okay.

PN168

THE COMMISSIONER: That might be the best way of doing it given the history of this matter and if you have got a document then we will be setting dates for hearings at that time, Friday, 30 April, 10.15, if that is okay?

PN169

MR HARVEY: Yes, it is perfect with me, Commissioner. I am getting on a plane and leaving the country on that day but somebody else will be here for you with Mr Parkinson.

PN170

THE COMMISSIONER: I can see why it is perfect for you. Okay. These proceedings are adjourned until 10.15 on 30 April next. Thank you.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 30 APRIL 2004 [10.32am]