AG2004/2543, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 1406 (14 April 2004)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 6588

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN

C2004/2543

LATROBE REGIONAL HOSPITAL

and

HEALTH SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re alleged industrial
action

MELBOURNE

11.29 AM, TUESDAY, 30 MARCH 2004

PN1

MR A. DJONEFF: I appear with MR BRIAN JENNER of Latrobe Regional Hospital.

PN2

MR L. WILLIAMS: If the Commission pleases, with me is MS K. VANDERKAAY.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Djoneff?

PN4

MR DJONEFF: Thank you, your Honour, for listing this matter at short notice at our request. Commissioner, I have spoken to Mr Williams briefly and we are not averse to going into conference once I put on the record what we believe to be the essence of this matter.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN6

MR DJONEFF: With a view to trying to have this matter resolved. Commissioner, there has been an industrial situation at Latrobe Regional Hospital in the Mental Health Services part of that hospital for some considerable time, many weeks. There have been a series of negotiations and discussions between management representatives, union representatives, both at the local level and from time to time involving Mr Williams himself, relating to commitments or otherwise in filling staffing positions. There has been a longstanding dispute about the adequacy of staffing levels at Latrobe Regional Hospital and, in recent times, the hospital has initiated a series of proposed changes in order to deal with its significant budget deficit.

PN7

Those initiatives were put on hold pending a review of that hospital's proposals because the backdrop to it was that the deficit that had to be recovered was in excess of one million dollars. So we are not talking about fiddling on the edges. During this time, your Honour, the union has made a number of demands and as I say there have been various meetings involving management including the Chief Executive and so on. If I could table the most recent letter from the Chief Executive to Mr Williams, which we believe fairly encapsulates what this matter is about and why we are concerned about the continuation of industrial action.

PN8

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Do you want to tender that, do you Mr Djoneff?

PN9

MR DJONEFF: Yes, I do, your Honour.

PN10

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that will be exhibit 1.

PN11

MR DJONEFF: I think it is fair to say, your Honour, there is not the most harmonious relationship at the hospital because of the stresses and strains under which the service operates.

PN12

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN13

MR DJONEFF: We think that letter is largely self-explanatory, your Honour, and frankly, putting aside the rights and wrongs of who said what to who and what someone might have intended or not intended or had undertaken or not undertaken as the case may be, we just come here with a relatively simple position that it is not appropriate to put on bans and persist with those bans where there is clearly a dispute resolution process provided under the industrial instrument that regulates the conduct of all the parties.

PN14

If there was that degree of concern and grievance about the hospital's intention of filling positions that did not result in agreement or continued disputation, the union was perfectly entitled to come here and seek the assistance of the Commission to resolve that dispute. We have a very simple proposition that whatever the merits of the matters are, we should - the bans should be lifted so that the matters that remain in dispute are either directly negotiated successfully or the assistance of the Commission is sought in working through the matters that separate the parties at present. I could go on and on about the individual merit issues but we've got to the point where the hospital can no longer tolerate and accept the existence of bans that continue - - -

PN15

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that because they've increased or it is just that the impact of them - - -

PN16

MR DJONEFF: No, our letter is certainly indicating an apprehension - certain apprehension is implied in noting that there is no reduction in the current bans. So at the least, we have a guarantee of continuation of the present level of bans (a) without any certainty that there won't be an escalation and on the face of it, no certainty that they will be eliminated. So whatever the intention might be, we take the pretty simple position that if there are matters in dispute, let them be dealt with in the ordinary way, free of industrial action.

PN17

Mr Jenner is here, who should we go into conference with matters of merit, and obviously there is a difference of view as to who said what to whom, and why and what were the underlying motivations? We have got to regularise this process so that we can get on with business. If the Commission pleases.

PN18

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Djoneff. Yes, Mr Williams?

PN19

MR WILLIAMS: Your Honour, I guess the first thing to say is that nothing is ever what it seems and whilst I acknowledge - - -

PN20

MR DJONEFF: The bans are though. Sorry, cheap shot but it couldn't be helped.

PN21

MR WILLIAMS: Whilst I acknowledge the submissions from Mr Djoneff in relation to a dispute resolution arrangement and also an industrial instrument in regard to that matter, your Honour, there is also an industrial instrument that regulates the recruitment of employees and the fast tracking of recruitment of employees. There is also an industrial instrument that talks about staffing and backfill.

PN22

I would have to say that the employer, in this regard, is in breach of all of those provisions. So I think it is important that in relation to the application of industrial instruments the employer shouldn't merely be allowed to apply those to which they feel comfortable with. Having said that, your Honour - - -

PN23

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I would expect both parties to adhere to and apply the provisions of the relevant industrial instruments especially if they are instruments of this Commission.

PN24

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, I think it is important that I do for the record set the scene of the situation down at Latrobe Regional Hospital because as I said nothing is what it always seems and I think for the benefit of all parties and particularly your good self, your Honour, some background information is appropriate.

PN25

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want to place that on the record, or do you want to do that in conference? It is up to you, Mr Williams?

PN26

MR DJONEFF: Your Honour, I have declined to go into the individual matters on record, if you like, as a gesture because I was raising, if you like, a threshold process issue rather than canvassing merits. If Mr Williams want to go on the record - - -

PN27

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, and that is why I raised it with Mr Williams. If Mr Williams puts his position on the record you will need to.

PN28

MR DJONEFF: I will have to. Typically conferences tend to be more productive in getting to those issues than a formal hearing.

PN29

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that is why I asked that question because I noted that Mr Djoneff had not placed the hospital's position on the record and it might be better if we - - -

PN30

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Djoneff does place an exhibit on the record which we would say does not reflect the situation at Latrobe Valley and, indeed, obfuscates a number of issues that we have been arguing with Latrobe regional management about. I think the existence of that correspondence itself on the record needs, or requires some form of response from myself.

PN31

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Williams, because I am anxious to see if we can get down to the nitty gritty of this matter, what I will do at this stage is I will delete that document as an exhibit. I won't accept the tender of it and if that satisfies you we will see if we can resolve the issues in conference, rather than putting conflicting versions on the record at this stage.

PN32

MR WILLIAMS: On that basis I would be happy to go through the background and the history of this in conference with you, your Honour. If the Commission pleases.

PN33

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what was exhibit 1 will no longer be marked as an exhibit. It is merely a document that I have for my assistance for the conference. If there is nothing else anybody wants to place on the record we will go into conference now.

PN34

MR DJONEFF: Thank you, your Honour.

OFF THE RECORD

RESUMED [11.43am]

PN35

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Williams?

PN36

MR MEGENNIS: The ANF seeks leave to appear in relation to this matter in respect of ANF members who are employed at the Latrobe Regional Hospital who do work in the psychiatric services area of the hospital and may have a direct interest in relation to what transpires in relation to these matters here today.

PN37

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Djoneff, what is your attitude to Mr Megennis' intervention?

PN38

MR DJONEFF: Your Honour, we have had no dialogue with the ANF. They have not featured as an entity that identifies itself being in dispute with us. I acknowledge that Mr Megennis' organisation has members at Latrobe Regional Hospital. On that basis, I don't object to him participating.

PN39

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You do object, or don't object?

PN40

MR DJONEFF: I do not, I do not object to his application to appear in this matter, notwithstanding that the dispute is essentially between us and the Health Services Union.

PN41

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Williams?

PN42

MR WILLIAMS: I have no objection, your Honour.

PN43

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, leave is granted for the ANF to intervene in this matter. Mr Megennis, we are just about to go into a conference to see if we can resolve the matter, or to see how far we can get. We will now again adjourn into conference.

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED