C0017/899, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 1462 (15 April 2004)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 10441

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DUNCAN

C1999/178

THE HIGHER EDUCATION WORKERS VICTORIA
(INTERIM) AWARD 1993

Review under Item 51, Part 2 Schedule 5,
transitional WROLA Act 1996 re CTS Case Description

SYDNEY

9.35 AM, MONDAY 5 APRIL 2004

Continued from 18.2.04 in Brisbane

THIS HEARING WAS CONDUCTED BY WAY OF VIDEO CONFERENCE

PN529

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is my purpose this morning to first of all take a note of the organisations that are represented this morning and then to pass to some consideration with the parties of what is to be done to bring a simplification of the HEWVIC Award to a close. I will go through the parties that were notified and if there is an appearance on their behalf could you indicate who you are and I will make a note of that. The Australian Higher Education Industrial Association?

PN530

MR K. CAMERON: I appear for the Australian Higher Education Industrial Association.

PN531

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Cameron. Monash University?

PN532

MR G. CRUNDALL: I appear for Monash University.

PN533

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Crundall. I will note as we go that you have put the position of Monash quite clearly, Mr Crundall, and that is that your institution wishes to be associated with the simplification of the HEWVIC Award, by which I imply at this stage there is no intention to seek an institutional award.

PN534

MR CRUNDALL: Yes, that is correct, your Honour.

PN535

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Crundall. The LHMU?

PN536

MS V. ILIAS: I appear for the Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Union.

PN537

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Ms Ilias. The CPSU?

PN538

MR M. PERICA: I appear for the Community and Public Sector Union.

PN539

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Perica. The NTEIU?

PN540

MR R. THOMAS: I appear for the National Tertiary Education Industry Union.

PN541

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Thomas. The CEPU? No. The CFMEU?

PN542

MR B. STIRLING: I appear for the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union - Construction and General Division.

PN543

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Stirling. The NUW?

PN544

MR G. MAAS: I appear for the National Union of Workers.

PN545

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Maas. The University of Melbourne?

PN546

MR M. BOWN: I appear for the University of Melbourne.

PN547

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Bown. The Howard Florey Institute of Experimental Physiology and Medicine? Ludwig Institute for Cancer Research?

PN548

MR K. CAMERON: I am representing the Ludwig Institute in today's proceedings.

PN549

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Cameron. Macfarlane Burnet Centre for Medical Research Limited? Melbourne University Private Limited? That completes my list. The only union organisation which isn't represented this morning is, I think, the CEPU and as for the universities, between the AHEIA and the two named universities I have come to, Monash and Melbourne, I think I've got an account of the token universities in Victoria. Just while we are on this attitude of positions, Mr Bown, the University of Melbourne, I am not clear, what is the position?

PN550

MR BOWN: I think it is fair to say it is very similar to Monash at this stage, your Honour. We reserve the right to perhaps look at an institutional look further on down the track, but at this stage we are happy to proceed and be involved with the HEWVIC simplification process.

PN551

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Bown. That completes what sounded suspiciously like a roll call, but there was no advantage by being here, I suppose. We should now look at where we are going. Mr Cameron, have you got any contribution to make?

PN552

MR CAMERON: Yes, your Honour. I will stand up, even though I probably don't need to. Your Honour, since we last reported back to you we - the universities that are present at the table today - have had a number of meetings with Ms Ilias from the Miscellaneous Workers Union and I would suggest that those meetings have been very productive, to the point that we believe that we are, subject to a couple of minor alterations and wording checking, we believe that we have pretty much got the miscellaneous stream concluded. That is not to say that it is word prefect at this point in time, but certainly all the in-principle agreement has been reached.

PN553

There needs to be some exchanging of some minor wording between the parties, but I think the discussions we have had have been very helpful and, as I say, we are a long way towards concluding that. So of the three streams we would say that the higher education stream, as we last said, is very, very close. We would suggest that the miscellaneous stream is now very, very close. Final wording or direction or, I guess, parts that we choose in those two areas will affect the common conditions section at the front of the document, so it still has a little bit of work.

PN554

That really only leaves the trade stream that we need to devote considerable time to, to wrapping up that particular area. I have had some discussion with Mr Maas of the NUW prior to today relating to progressing that particular clause and we have agreed that following today we will schedule some meetings to take place in the future which hopefully will be able to progress that particular section along the same path as we have with the miscellaneous stream and the higher education stream. So in a nutshell that is basically we are at today, your Honour.

PN555

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Cameron, that is encouraging. I should, going through what Mr Cameron has said, get on the record the views of people who are affected. The first two, staying with the employer Monash, Mr Cameron has summarised where you are at, Mr Crundall?

PN556

MR CRUNDALL: Yes, that is correct, your Honour. Monash University does not have anything to add.

PN557

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Bown?

PN558

MR BOWN: We believe that is correct, your Honour and we are in the same boat. We think that is a fairly good summary of where we are at.

PN559

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. And, of course, Ms Ilias, your organisation is the only one in the miscellaneous stream, is it not?

PN560

MS ILIAS: That is correct, your Honour.

PN561

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. The higher education stream. The NTEU. What is your view, Mr Thomas?

PN562

MR THOMAS: Your Honour, as reported at our previous report back at the beginning of February, the parties have virtually finished the conditions element of the stream. There was final proof reading - you know, the search for the internal typos - but as far as substance is concerned the NTEU still has its argument in relation to the salaries and the rates that would be inserted in the final award. But that was the only aspect that we still have to address.

PN563

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did the parties to the awards in regard to the matter that Mr Thomas has just raised, salaries and rates, do you think - Mr Thomas, I will start with you - that it is possible to contemplate a simplified award which postpones the salary item, because that is something that is done in a lot of awards when you have difficulty with that.

PN564

MR THOMAS: Yes, your Honour. The actual final rates, whatever they may be, are unlikely to have any direct impact because most respondents are covered by separate EBAs which have rates above and beyond what the award would be anyway. So we are not uncomfortable with that suggestion, your Honour.

PN565

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thank you, Mr Thomas. Now, I'm not quite sure where I put CPSU, but I will hear from you now, Mr Perica?

PN566

MR PERICA: Well, I think you can put us in a higher air stream, your Honour.

PN567

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I suspected that.

PN568

MR PERICA: Yes, from our point of view, I think, we share the position of the NTU that we are not uncomfortable with a conditions award being made with the rates to be determined at a later time, because I think it is fairly important that a safety net be put in place about - - -

PN569

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, that is right. Thank you, Mr Perica. I think that brings us to the trades stream, does it not? I note the CEPU isn't here today. That is unusual. It is usually represented, but if I'm right in allocating the other unions to - that Mr Maas, you have been obviously involved?

PN570

MR MAAS: Yes, your Honour. I may just say that what Mr Cameron said - just reiterate what Mr Cameron said before. We did have discussions over the last month in relation to how the parties should be proceeding with relation to the trades stream, and from the NEWUs part, we now look forward to again to beginning those negotiations and to start that and move in to the conclusion of that part of the award.

PN571

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Stirling?

PN572

MR STIRLING: Your Honour, this is a matter that the CFMEU has not appeared in to date. The union apologises to the Commission about that. It was due to a misunderstanding between the national office and the branch as to who was ultimately handling the matter. It ultimately falls to me. I've had an opportunity to have very basic discussions with some of the unions - the CPU and the NTU. I'm surprised not to see the CPU here, but that is as far as our involvement has gone. The union is now in a position to become involved in discussions about the shape that the trade stream of the award is to take, and we are in the hands of the Commission as to how that might proceed.

PN573

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, you will be doing it, Mr Stirling, will you?

PN574

MR STIRLING: Yes, your Honour.

PN575

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I just mention that because, obviously, you will have a slight disadvantage. Did Mr Flatt appear for the CEPU in the Hugh v Vic matter, Mr Cameron?

PN576

MR CAMERON: Sorry, your Honour, I didn't hear the question?

PN577

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did Mr Flatt of the CEPU appear in the Hugh v Vic matter?

PN578

MR CAMERON: I think Chris Flatt from the national office of the CEPU Electrical Division appeared in one of the earlier proceedings.

PN579

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Last time. Yes, that's right.

PN580

MR CAMERON: Yes.

PN581

MR STIRLING: Your Honour, if I may, I spoke to Mr Flatt by way of making a circumstantial remark, Mr Flatt indicated that the Victorian branch of the CEPU might be handling the matter, but that can be clarified.

PN582

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There's been a little bit of discussion in that union too, Mr Stirling, as to who would be handling the matter. Obviously, the Victorian branch is well suited for it. I will leave that to the unions to sort out. I've heard from all of the unions who are represented here today, have I not? Yes, I believe I have, and I've heard from the Universities either through the association, or in their own right. There are a couple of the institutes which haven't appeared and haven't instructed Mr Cameron or anyone else, but I don't intend to delay for them.

PN583

They have been notified, and it is up to them to respond. It would seem to me that again, and I don't say that critically, but it is necessary to fix another date. Every one of the streams requires a little bit of work. Some require more than others, obviously, but the purpose of today's listing was to try and get everybody to move in the same direction. I think, with the appearances and advice that has been given, that has been achieved. We will go off record momentarily while we fix an appropriate date.

OFF THE RECORD [9.50am]

PN584

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I thank the parties for the advises they have given the Commission in this matter today. I fix Friday, 21 May at 9.30 am for a further report. It will at this stage be by way of video hearing, but if the parties should wish that to be changed because of advantages for all concerned of the Commission sitting in Melbourne they are at liberty, of course, to approach my associate and arrange that, even if it involves changing the day. I adjourn this matter accordingly. I adjourn the Commission until 10 am.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 21 MAY 2004 [9.55am]