C2004/2901, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 1743 (7 May 2004)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 7, ANZ House 13 Grenfell St ADELAIDE SA 5000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 1656

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER DANGERFIELD

C2004/2901

LIQUOR, HOSPITALITY AND MISCELLANEOUS
UNION

and

GROUP 4 FALCK GLOBAL SOLUTIONS PTY LIMITED

Application under section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of dispute re classification
of employees

ADELAIDE

9.25 AM, WEDNESDAY, 28 APRIL 2004

PN1

MS S. BENNETT: I appear on behalf of the Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union. With me is MR M. HULME.

PN2

MR M. MIITZE: I appear for Global Solutions and with me is MR G. BATCHELOR, also from Global Solutions based at Baxter.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: I will just indicate to the parties my intention with these matters and my usual practice is to get the basic facts and circumstances of the dispute on the record just in case we do need to go further and then we will adjourn into conference. But perhaps if you might both like to give me a statement as to what the dispute is all about and where you are at the moment?

PN4

MS BENNETT: Thank you, Commissioner. It being our dispute, I suppose I will start first. The issue in this dispute is largely a classification issue. To give you a bit of a factual background, the classification issue covers immigration detention officers who work at the Baxter Immigration Detention Centre. In December last year, the contract for managing the centres moved over from another company to Global Solutions and in this context, the union negotiated with the company an EBA, which had a fairly new classification structure in it or one which varied from the last one, in some respects anyway. As part of those discussions there was discussions about when staff transitioned over from the old company to the new company, how that would affect their classification.

PN5

An issue has arisen in relation to detention officers moving from the detention services officer level 1 over to level 2. The issue being that to move from level 1 to level 2, in the EBA it states that you require 12 months service with the company and a certificate 3 or equivalent and there is some discretion to waive that requirement, which is vested in the company. The issue has arisen because we have a small group of officers who did not actually attain their certificate 3 under the old company before the transition over to the new company. Some did and some didn't, it seems to be a fairly ad hoc process as to why some did and why some didn't. The issue being, that due to operational reasons Group 4 is unable to offer training to get those employees up to their certificate 3 level and therefore whilst they have their 12 months service and some of their colleagues have been put up to that level 2 level, some haven't because they haven't got their certificate 3 qualification.

PN6

So it is a matter of operational difficulty for Group 4 Falck, however we feel that our members have been disadvantaged by circumstances which are somewhat beyond their control and that is why we are here before you today. We have used this morning to have some discussions with the company and we have brought the matter a little further forward than we had previously, which Mr Miitze might want to report on as well, what stage we are up to. But I think those facts are largely agreed between the parties, if the Commission pleases.

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just ask, Ms Bennett, how many officers are involved?

PN8

MS BENNETT: Approximately 20 to 30.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, that is, I take it the total number of officers in - I mean, how many are in actual dispute in this transition? Somewhere between 20 and 30?

PN10

MS BENNETT: Yes, that is right. It might help if I hand up a copy of the agreement to you. Would that help?

PN11

THE COMMISSIONER: I think I've got a copy. So if there is somewhere between 20 and 30 who are still on level 1 and can't do the training for certificate 3 to get to level 2, how many have actually done the certificate and have moved up to level 1?

PN12

MR MIITZE: Commissioner, I think the situation is that some staff had certificate level 3 or an equivalent with the previous company being ACM and those people have been moved up. It is worth pointing out that as Ms Bennett said, in the agreement it states that people need 12 months service implicitly. When the agreement was written that was 12 months service with us. We have recognised service with ACM, so essentially that is an above award payment to those people by recognising their ACM service. And so some people have moved up to the higher level based on the qualifications they attained with ACM. And I think the number there is about 15. I think, yes. So essentially, there would have been around about 30 to 35 people who fell into this category when we first took over, some of which managed to get the training just before we took over and some of which didn't - some of whom didn't.

PN13

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I ask, on this training, what sort of training is it? Is it - I have to be careful how I phrase it. Is it sort of a substantive training or is it just training that confirms what they already know? I mean, how meaningful or substantive is it?

PN14

MR MIITZE: It is a complex issue, Commissioner, in a sense because whilst we do recognise certificate 3 in Corrections as a suitable equivalent, we have an obligation under our contract to essentially re-train people because of the major differences quite obviously between running a correctional facility and running a detention centre. And one of the - I suppose one of the criticisms of the contract in the past has been the fact that the centres in some ways have been run more in line with a correctional facility, or at least it would be fair to say that some of the practices of the staff were more in line with corrections, and that comes from the fact that there is quite a bit of movement.

PN15

The previous provider did run a couple of correctional institutions as well as running the detention centre, so staff would move across between the facilities and that has caused problems in the past. One of things that we are obligated to do is to change that culture. In terms of the training, we have a 4 week training course to start with, which we call our: Initial Training Course. Everyone is required to attend that course and essentially that gets people probably about three quarters of the way to the certificate 3 requirement. Our priority is to put everyone through that initial training course to start with and then to look at what the gap is between that and what they need to get to certificate 3. Now, in some cases they may have some prior learning, which we would recognise or some other qualifications that we would also recognise.

PN16

When Ms Bennett mentioned that we haven't been able to do the training, it is worth clarifying that we have been doing a lot of training, it has just that it has been that initial training course rather than closing that gap. We feel that logically and also from an operational point of view that it will be easier for us to first of all get everyone up to our initial training course requirements, then to look at what prior qualifications they may have, which we would take into account, and then focus on that "gap training", if I can call it that.

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: How long will it take to put everyone then through the initial training course?

PN18

MR MIITZE: If I can just run through our training program generally, since we have taken over. Our first training course started on 9 December which was 6 weeks prior to us taking over at Baxter and we took 36 people through that particular course. We then ran a second course starting on 15 March which finished on 8 April and 46 people went through that course. The third training course started on 27 April, this week in fact, and finishes on 21 May and there are 15 people on that course. We will then be required to run another three training courses with a 2 week interval between each of those. And we estimate that we will be finished - on that basis we will be finished the initial training course for all staff by the end of September this year.

PN19

What we would then propose to do would be to - sorry, concurrently, at the moment while we are running the training, we are also going through a process of recognising people's existing qualifications. So what that means for a lot of people is they have to provide us with evidence of the qualification they attained while they were with ACM. So we will be getting that process sorted out, you know, as we speak. And by the end of September we will then be in a position to start doing that, what I call the "gap training".

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, so by the end of September you would be - how many people are we talking about in total that you are putting through this initial training? There were 36 - - -

PN21

MR MIITZE: No, sorry Commissioner, about 140-something in total.

PN22

THE COMMISSIONER: About 140 in total, right. So from what I hear you saying, by the end of September all those 140 will have been through your company initial training - - -

PN23

MR MIITZE: That is right.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - and at that point you will then say, well, look, you will have assessed their previous training with ACM and you will have decided that a certain proportion of those 140 would have equivalent qualifications to go straight to the level 2 - level 1, I'm sorry. Is that right?

PN25

MR MIITZE: Level 2, the DSO2, which is - - -

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, level 2, is the upper one, yes.

PN27

MR MIITZE: Yes, DSO2.

PN28

THE COMMISSIONER: So some of those 140 at the end of September, you would say: yes, well you can go to level 2 straight away. There will be others of whom you will say: no, look you will have to do the certificate 3 before you get to level 2.

PN29

MR MIITZE: They will have to have done some gap training, which at the moment - - -

PN30

THE COMMISSIONER: All of them would have had to have done some gap training?

PN31

MR MIITZE: No, those that have got certificate 3 in Corrections, we will recognise that but we also require them to do our training. But there will be some who won't have certificate 3 and we will then say that basically there is some extra modules that they need to do to bring them up to the equivalent - what is the equivalent. One of the issues, which is really a side issue but I suppose it complicates matters, is we don't have an accredited training course in detention services. We are working towards that at the moment, that is a separate issue. But we will recognise previous correctional services certificate 3 and those that haven't got that, we put them through our 4 week training course and then we take them through some additional modules to bring them up to what would be the equivalent of a certificate 3.

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. So all the training is company specific?

PN33

MR MIITZE: That is right, yes, yes.

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there anything else you want to put on the record?

PN35

MR BATCHELOR: Can I just add to that in terms of the figures? It might be helpful that - in terms of the 140-odd staff we have got, some 70-odd are already currently being re-classified or they have translated across on 19 January at the DSO level 2, so we are not talking about the entire 144 here, there's - of the remaining 70, there is about 45, 46 that are new recruits that went through the initial training course that concluded on 8 April - - -

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: How many did you say are new recruits?

PN37

MR BATCHELOR: About 46.

PN38

THE COMMISSIONER: 46 of those 70, yes.

PN39

MR BATCHELOR: 46. And then the remainder of the - in round figures, I think it is about 25 in round figures are the ones that are former ACM employees that currently sit at DSO level 1 that either haven't got or haven't produced their certificate level 3 and/or their 12 months service.

PN40

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. And, Ms Bennett, I take it from your comment that is the dispute primarily then with those latter - the ones that those last 25 that - 25 or so in round terms, that Mr Batchelor mentioned. In other words, those who were former ACM employees at DSO level 1 and they either haven't got or haven't produced certificate 3. Are they the critical lot?

PN41

MS BENNETT: They are, although the people - - -

PN42

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean presumably, with the new recruits, I mean, they have to go through a process anyway if they are new system, yes.

PN43

MS BENNETT: We acknowledge that, yes, and certainly that is not in dispute. The people who have not yet produced but will later produce their certificate 3, I don't think we are in issue over those people because the company is recognising and back-paying them to 19 January, so I don't think we have got an issue over those that have their certificate 3 whether they eventually produce it or already have done so. Our concern rests with those people that haven't got their certificate 3 for whatever reason, whether it be because they were not assessed and given it prior to DEO handing the contract over to Group 4 or because they haven't yet had their gap training to bring them up to the certificate 3 level. So we are kind of restricted to those who simply do not have their certificate 3 in any form.

PN44

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN45

MS BENNETT: I suppose I should also - - -

PN46

THE COMMISSIONER: And that is just a proportion of those 25 Mr Batchelor mentioned, whatever the number, we are not quite sure but - - -

PN47

MR BATCHELOR: It could be all of them and it could be any number of them.

PN48

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN49

MS BENNETT: I should also point out that the reason why we have brought the dispute before you, Commissioner, I suppose the reason why we have an expectation that they would have actually been put up to the DSO2 level, was based on enterprise bargaining negotiations we had and certain undertakings that were given about those employees, which we might be able to go into during conference. Also we draw your attention to clause 38 of the EBA, which gives the company's commitment to training. And we see at 38.1, it does actually state that the company will commit to providing access to nationally accredited certificate 3 in Custodial Practice.

PN50

I think we acknowledge that the company is not preferring to go forward with that qualification and so therefore we acknowledge that the certificate 3 in Custodial Practice may not be the appropriate level but we think that, you know, we can work with them to in fact make sure that the employees are given the other qualification, although that is not yet accredited by the ITAB. Also 38.2, which states that the employee will be provided with career opportunities through appropriate training and we would say, Commissioner, that that is an example - that this classification issue is an example which is covered by 38.2.

PN51

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Then I think, unless there is anything further anyone wants to put on the record as such?

PN52

MR MIITZE: Commissioner, you asked about the extent of our initial training. I would like to tender the outline of our training course, just to give you a better indication of the comprehensiveness of it and also importantly, the specific focus on detention rather than on corrections.

PN53

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, perhaps if we just mark this the future - the initial training course 3 for detention services officers - unless there is any objection Ms Bennett, we will just mark it at this stage as R1.

EXHIBIT #R1 INITIAL TRAINING COURSE FOR DETENTION SERVICES OFFICERS

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, perhaps we can go off the record then, thanks.

OFF THE RECORD

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #R1 INITIAL TRAINING COURSE FOR DETENTION SERVICES OFFICERS PN54