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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 7105
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER SMITH
C2003/5669
COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL,
ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION,
POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED
SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
- COMMUNICATIONS DIVISION
and
TELSTRA CORPORATION
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re Telstra's intention to replace
12 hour shifts with 8 hour shifts at their Clayton
operations centre
MELBOURNE
10.06 AM, FRIDAY, 14 MAY 2004
Continued from 13.5.04
PN1648
THE COMMISSIONER: We need a witness.
PN1649
MS BORNSTEIN: Commissioner, perhaps before the witness returns, could I raise a couple of preliminary matters. The first is that although we had anticipated and hoped that the witness, the union's witness evidence, might conclude on Thursday, 20 May, it is now apparent that that won't be able to be the case. We would think at this stage that we would need Friday, 21 May, to complete the witness evidence with the exception of the expert, Kathryn Heiler. I am very conscious that we have flagged the possibility of a supplementary report and that the respondent needs sufficient time to consider that. In those circumstances, if it would be of convenient to the Commission, I would ask that the union's witness evidence be relisted for half a day only following that Friday, the 21st of - - -
PN1650
THE COMMISSIONER: Some time after Friday, 21 May?
PN1651
MS BORNSTEIN: Yes, yes. And could I just - would you mind if I just excuse myself to get my diary?
PN1652
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course.
PN1653
MS BORNSTEIN: I understand that the Commissioner's availability would be very limited.
PN1654
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1655
MS BORNSTEIN: But if it would be at all possible for the Commission to consider the half a day on the - some time on 4 June, the afternoon of 7 June or 10 June, subject to my learned friend - my learned friend is suggesting that, in fact, we might need a day and, in that case, if the Commission had any time on 4 June or 10 June, or in the alternative - because I have to confess I am having a holiday.
PN1656
THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right. Are you free on 4 June?
PN1657
MR WOOD: Yes, Commissioner.
PN1658
THE COMMISSIONER: Done; the whole day.
PN1659
MS BORNSTEIN: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN1660
MR WOOD: Commissioner, I am not saying we would necessarily need that, but I haven't seen the report.
PN1661
THE COMMISSIONER: No, no. No, no, but let us do it right now.
PN1662
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN1663
MS BORNSTEIN: Thank you.
PN1664
THE COMMISSIONER: As luck would have it, I have only got a matter starting later on in the afternoon. My associate is just going to check my other diary to make sure that that is all right. Well, all the stars have collided in the right way - - -
PN1665
MS BORNSTEIN: They have?
PN1666
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - and 4 June is yours.
PN1667
MS BORNSTEIN: Thank you, Commissioner. There is one other - a new matter. I can now hand to the Commission a draft order.
PN1668
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN1669
MS BORNSTEIN: Copies have been supplied to my learned friend. It is just one page that I have supplied to - - -
PN1670
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, the - - -
PN1671
PN1672
THE COMMISSIONER: Just so that it doesn't come as a surprise, when I am finished hearing all the evidence I am going to ask both parties to reflect and see whether or not there is any utility in further discussing the matter, rather than just simply barging in to final submissions. Now, it may be that you both come back and say: well, we have had a brief discussion and let us go on, our minds are never going to meet. But I think once all the evidence is in, people then have an opportunity to reflect on what has been put.
PN1673
MS BORNSTEIN: And for completeness, the respondent has this morning produced documents by consent arising in relation to paragraph 107 of Mr Millerd's statement and I only raise that because in due course I may wish to tender them as if it were under sundries.
PN1674
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1675
MS BORNSTEIN: That completes the housekeeping, as it were, Commissioner. Is there anything - I would call Mr Inglis.
PN1676
PN1677
MR WOOD: Thank you, Commissioner. Mr Inglis, you gave some evidence yesterday about the work you perform in the transmission section of the global operating centre?---Yes.
PN1678
We have heard some evidence from Mr Darren Crick and Mr Robert Mather and Mr Stephen Somerville. They work in a part of the transmission area which is different to the part you work in?---Yes, that is correct.
PN1679
And their team leader is Karl Rashwan?---Yes, that is correct.
PN1680
What is their area called?---Access.
PN1681
And we have also heard some evidence from Mr Paul Deane from the department, and Troy Walsh and from Phillip Fairbrother. They work in a separate area apart from Mr Crick, Mr Mather and Somerville and from you; is that right?---Yes.
PN1682
And they have a different team leader to you?---Yes, they do.
PN1683
And who is your team leader?---Tony Abela.
PN1684
And what is their area?---SDH transmission.
PN1685
And what is our area?---Sorry, can you rephrase that? I have misunderstood something there. I thought you said my team leader.
PN1686
I will rephrase it. What is the area you work in?---SDH transmission.
**** MICHAEL INGLIS XXN MR WOOD
PN1687
And what is the area Mr Deane, Mr Walsh and Mr Fairbrother work in?---PBH transmission.
PN1688
And what is the difference between the two?---Different technology. They look after all the analog transmission. We look after all the SDH.
PN1689
What is SDH?---Sequence digital hierarchy transmission. It is a totally different way of looking at the transmissions. The transmitter is digital, not analog.
PN1690
I see. I take it you worked in either the alarm monitoring section or the network fault management section before the restructure in October 2003?---Yes, I worked in the alarm monitoring.
PN1691
I see. And I take it that in your part of the transmission that deals with the digital network you have to do both alarm monitoring and network fault management?---That is correct.
PN1692
And I take it that you have to do additional tasks that you didn't previously have to do in your position in alarm monitoring?---Yeah. Can I expand on that a little bit?
PN1693
You will be given the opportunity - - -?---All right. Yes.
PN1694
As I understand things, you say that the peak in work is from not 7 am to 10 am, but 7 am to 5.30 pm?---That is correct.
PN1695
And whether or not it is 7 to 10 or 7 to 5.30, you would expect management to try to make sure that there is adequate staffing to deal with the work that is required to be done at that time?---Yes, I would agree with that.
**** MICHAEL INGLIS XXN MR WOOD
PN1696
You said in your evidence in-chief yesterday that the work has become a little bit more complex. Is that a result of you taking on the network fault management responsibilities as well as the alarm monitoring responsibilities?---Yes and no, because originally I did do both.
PN1697
I see. So if the answer is no, the work is not complex - I won't put in the double negative. What are the other reasons that the work has become complex, Mr Inglis?---I think because the actual network has got more complex, too. There is a lot more new products coming out.
PN1698
And are you - those are new products that you have to deal with?---Yes, they are.
PN1699
And you have to be trained in?---Yes, we do.
PN1700
And you have been - you are scheduled to be engaged to be trained in some of these new products?---Some I have, some I am still waiting to be.
PN1701
Yes. I think - I withdraw that. I think you gave some evidence yesterday that you had had external training in two additional products; is that right?---That is correct.
PN1702
And are they products that are totally new to your area?---One is, and the other one is actually from PDH.
PN1703
What is PDH?---Analog transmission.
PN1704
I see. So you were trained in a new analog and a new digital product?---That is correct.
**** MICHAEL INGLIS XXN MR WOOD
PN1705
And I imagine the new digital products that you deal with are more powerful and more complex technologies than the technologies you dealt with in analog?---The training I had was actually more on an operating system. Before looking at alarms and fault finding, it wasn't actually a new product in the sense that it carried traffic. It was actually an alarm monitoring tool.
PN1706
Okay. But that alarm monitoring tool has greater ability to interrogate the system than the previous tools that you dealt with in the analog side of the network?---It is more of a - they both coincide with each other. One has one advantage, the old system has another advantage. We are still basically using the old system that we used, but the new system on a major fault is a lot easier to use.
PN1707
I see. Because the technology that is available under the new system is easier to use?---That is correct, when looking at major faults.
PN1708
Beg pardon?---At looking at major faults.
PN1709
And it means that you can diagnose those major faults more easily from your position at the global operating centre rather than relying on external parties?---Yes, that is correct.
PN1710
As I understand things, Mr Inglis, you are the only witness that has come forward from your area of the transmission section of the global operating centre to give evidence in this case; is that right, or you don't know?---I don't know.
PN1711
Okay. How many people are within your section?---My actual cell - - -
PN1712
Yes?--- - - - or the complete SDH transmission?
**** MICHAEL INGLIS XXN MR WOOD
PN1713
The - no, within the SDH part of transmission. I imagine your cell has three or four people?---Yes, there is three people.
PN1714
Yes, and within the whole of the area in which Mr Tony Abela is the team leader?---I would only be guessing, to be honest. It is between three and five people in each group.
PN1715
And there are about six teams?---Yes.
PN1716
So that is about between 24 and 30 people?---Yes, approximately.
PN1717
There is nothing further in cross-examination. Thank you, Commissioner.
PN1718
PN1719
MS BORNSTEIN: You were asked about the additional tasks that you performed: as I recall, a combination of alarm monitoring and network management. What is the nature of those additional tasks?---Now, originally when I came into the SDH cell I was just alarm monitoring which is, you would look at the alarm, point out where the alarm was and where it was, you would pass it off to someone to actually fix the fault. Now, we do both. We find the alarm, we fix it. Everything is done by one person whereas before it was a separate job.
PN1720
Is that work that you had not done before?---No, I have actually done it originally when I started with the transmission group inside Telstra; originally, well, I am talking about shifts back in '88 when I came into the transmission we did both then. And about three years ago they split it into two separate tasks. Now, they have joined it back together again. So it is actually going back to what I was originally doing inside Telstra.
**** MICHAEL INGLIS RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1721
My learned friend asked you whether you would expect management to ensure that there is adequate staff to do the work between, I think it was, 7.30 and 5.30 pm and you agreed with that?---Yes.
PN1722
In your opinion, is there adequate staff between the periods of 7.30 and 5.30 in your area?---Not all the time, no.
PN1723
No further questions, thank you.
PN1724
PN1725
PN1726
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Downs, could you give your full name, address and occupation to the Commission; and when you are answering the questions, could you address your answers to the Commission?---My name is David Edward Downs. (address supplied)
PN1727
And your occupation?---My occupation is a technologist with Telstra.
PN1728
Mr Downs, has a witness statement been prepared on your instruction in relation to this matter?---It has.
PN1729
Do you have a copy with you?---Not at the moment, sorry.
PN1730
Could I ask that the witness be shown this document.
PN1731
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1732
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Downs, could you just look at that document. Is that the witness statement prepared on your instruction?---Yes, it is.
PN1733
Have you read it recently, Mr Downs?---I have.
PN1734
Are there any amendments that you wish to make to your statement?---Yes, there are. Since this statement was prepared, my travel arrangements have changed slightly. I have discovered that it is not possible for me on an eight hour shift to safely drive home after night shift, so I am getting my travelling companion, Geoff Donald, to do all of the driving.
PN1735
THE COMMISSIONER: What paragraph is that, Mr Downs?
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1736
MS BORNSTEIN: That is paragraph 13, Commissioner.
PN1737
THE COMMISSIONER: Thirteen, is it? Thank you.
PN1738
MS BORNSTEIN: Yes.
PN1739
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, is that deleted now?
PN1740
MS BORNSTEIN: Could it perhaps be amended to read:
PN1741
I now no longer drive home after night shift. Geoff Donald does the driving.
PN1742
THE COMMISSIONER: Sure.
PN1743
MS BORNSTEIN: Are there any other amendments?---No, that is fine, thanks.
PN1744
With that amendment, Mr Downs, are you able to swear that your witness statement is true and correct?---With the exception of a couple of birthdays, that is not a real problem. My children now are - or one of them is older than that. Is that a concern?
PN1745
Perhaps to - - -
PN1746
THE COMMISSIONER: Which one?---Paragraph 4.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1747
Yes?---I am now 38 years old, and my children are now 13 and 12.
PN1748
MS BORNSTEIN: With those amendments, Mr Downs, are you able to swear that the statement is true and correct?---Yes, I am.
PN1749
PN1750
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Downs, in what section are you employed at the global operation centre?---I am employed in the alarm monitoring area as an AXE technologist.
PN1751
Thank you. And where is the alarm monitoring area located within the complex?---Physically?
PN1752
Yes?---Building M7, second row from the front on the left hand side.
PN1753
So that is the large operation area?---Yes.
PN1754
Yes. Could I ask that the witness be shown the witness statement of Mr Millerd. Mr Downs, could I ask you to turn to page 5 and read to yourself paragraph 20 and paragraph 21?---I have done.
PN1755
Thank you. You will see that Mr Millerd states that the peak in demand occurs between approximately the hours of 7 am and 10 pm. Do you agree with that?---I agree that the number of phone calls is a peak during that time period but I would have to state that the work that we do depends upon network events to a great degree. If there is network problems outside those hours, then that would be the peak of our requirement to work.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1756
And what is the nature of the phone calls that you might receive; can you give examples to the Commission?---Yes, I can. Typically we are receiving phone calls asking us to verify that alarms are in existence or asking us to help quantify problems that exist in the network. A large degree of our phone calls are not actually handled by ourselves directly. We are basically phone shufflers to pass those phone calls to the area that is required to answer the inquiry. Yes, that is about it.
PN1757
Does each phone call generate a ticket of work?---No, it doesn't.
PN1758
At paragraph 1 - paragraph 21 Mr Millerd suggests that the former shift arrangement didn't balance staffing and workloads. Do you agree with that?---I tend to disagree. I felt that the workload was matching the requirement at that stage.
PN1759
And from your observations, does the current staffing arrangements on day shift match workload?---No, I don't believe so. I believe that currently on day shift there are rostered on more people than the workload requires.
PN1760
Is that always the case?---It is always the case that they are rostered on. It doesn't mean that they are appearing.
PN1761
I see, and can you explain what you mean by that?---With staff absences for various reasons the people on day shift, which is where the most absences occur, tend to have to be replaced by other people in the day relief shift, or not, as the case may be. So that is why in a proportion of the time we have less staff on than we would hope during the day shift.
PN1762
Have you been rostered on day relief?---Yes, I have.
PN1763
And when rostered on day relief, have you always worked on day relief?---I wouldn't say always without checking the roster but I would say most of the time I have been.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1764
Have you been offered overtime under the eight hour shift arrangements?---Yes, I have. I have been asked to come in; whether that is overtime or a shift swap depends on the circumstances.
PN1765
I see. And have you always accepted that?---No.
PN1766
And why have you not accepted it?---I don't feel that I have enough break as it is.
PN1767
Do you have a choice as to accept the recalls or overtime?---You definitely have a choice but you feel pressured or obligated to assist either the team leader that is requesting it or to help the other shift that is short.
PN1768
From your observations, does staffing levels on afternoon shift now match workload?---It depends if there is network events or - problems that occur, sorry. Yes, if - our work is dependent on things occurring in the network. If these events take place, you get a storm coming through or what we call an alarm storm where alarm after alarm after alarm start coming, the current workload - sorry, the current staffing definitely doesn't give you the leeway to handle that.
PN1769
And are you able to comment on the position in relation to nightshift; is that the same situation?---It is exactly the same situation. If you have got too many alarms, you can't cope with them. And we do handle network hazard events overnight which is something that quite possibly doesn't get captured by statistics. We have to take note of people ringing in saying they are going to start work which is going to cause us alarms, and then we have to manage those alarms as they come in.
PN1770
Can I ask you to read to yourself paragraph 23 of the witness statement of Mr Millerd?---I have done.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1771
Thank you. Under the 12 hour shift arrangements you report to a team leader?---I do.
PN1772
Yes, under the 12 hour shift arrangements you report to a team leader?---Under the 12 hour shifts agreements - - -
PN1773
Yes?--- - - - I worked with a team leader.
PN1774
Worked with a team leader. Thank you. From your observations, what were the duties of the team leader under the 12 hour shift arrangement?---My team leader, Mr Peter Collins who has left the company now, was - I observed was chiefly responsible for managing the staff that worked for him, and ensuring that the work done - sorry, that the work was completed to required standards.
PN1775
And did you from time to time require technical assistance and advice when working on the 12 hour shift arrangements?---Yes. Yes, I did.
PN1776
And where did you obtain that advice?---We had a number of resources that we could call on. In alarm monitoring, which is considered a lower level position, we had the network fault management section which had a -was staffed by people that had an increased level of the technology that we were working on so they were always available. They were a 12 hour shift component as well. If they were unable to meet our requirements, we could always recall the SIM they called themselves back then, the AXE technology group.
PN1777
And what roster did they work?---That would have been a recall arrangement. We would have been phoning them at home.
PN1778
Out of hours?---Yes.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1779
Under the 12 hour shift arrangement, who supervised the actual work you performed?---My team leader.
PN1780
And was that day to day supervision of tasks or a broad supervision?---It would be broad supervision. He didn't have expertise in my technology. So he was - he wasn't someone that I could talk to about my technology issues but he was making sure that - he was seeing the alarm screens as we were and, if he saw a large number of red alarms, he would know to come and make sure we were doing our job.
[10.35am]
PN1781
Under the current system who does - is there any person who monitors the incidents of alarms as the team leader used to do under the 12 hour shift arrangement?---Well, during the day possibly the team leader that they have put in place would be able to do that, but after hours he is not there so we are basically self managing ourselves.
PN1782
There is a team leader for your team under the present shift arrangement, isn't there?---There is.
PN1783
From your observations what are the duties of the team leader now?---He currently does his best to make the roster work for us. He is moving staff around left, right and centre to meet holes. He does a meeting group with the incoming afternoon shift staff during the week days and that is all that I have seen him help us with.
PN1784
And who do you approach for technical assistance and advice now?---In an after hours arrangement or during the day?
PN1785
During the day?---During the day we have access to the back of house AC staff, so we can always just phone them up for advice. In an after hours situation that would be our first port of call, recalling them immediately.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1786
And are you familiar with the position of process control leader?---I am.
PN1787
What does the process control leader do?---Makes sure that the data that we are providing to the communications group meets their requirements, whether that is interpreting our technical jargon in a way that the girls or people in that area can understand or getting clarification as to the impact if it is slightly unclear.
PN1788
And do you have contact with the process control leader?---On occasion.
PN1789
Yes. And are you familiar with the position of service control leader?---I am.
PN1790
And from your observations what does the service control leader do?---The service control leader would be involved if we - if anyone encountered a problem in performing the function that we needed to perform, whether that is recalling technical field staff after hours. Sometimes it is difficult to find staff to take on the job that we are after so we would ask for his escalation if we ever needed to.
PN1791
So are you accountable to those two positions at all?---Not that I am aware of.
PN1792
Is there a roster 24 hours, seven days a week; is that correct?---Correct, yes.
PN1793
At the bottom of paragraph 23 Mr Malden refers to the issuing of new work instructions and other tasks. Do you receive new work instructions?---Yes, I do.
PN1794
How do you receive those instructions?---Typically they are mentioned at the afternoon oncoming shift meeting and then we receive them via e-mail or electronic form.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1795
And when you say they are mentioned, what is the form - what is said?---Well, we only have a 20 minute meeting to go through any issues that might be said, so it is basically covering the high points if they are there and mentioning that, you know, keep an eye out for the e-mail which will describe everything in full.
PN1796
And under the 12 hour shift arrangement did you receive new work instructions?---Yes, I would.
PN1797
And how did that occur?---They would have been given to us in detail at our two up Tuesday training day.
PN1798
Do you receive under the present system information about changes to existing processes?---Yes.
PN1799
And how is that done?---The same method; they would be mentioned, if at all, and then the detail would be in an electronic document.
PN1800
And is that different from under the 8 - the 12 hour shift arrangement?---Is that - - -
PN1801
Did you receive information about changes to existing processes under the 12 hour shift arrangement?---Yes, I did.
PN1802
And how did you receive that?---They would have been presented in detail on the two up Tuesday training day.
PN1803
Since October 2003 have you undertaken any training?---Yes, I have.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1804
And what is the nature of that training?---It was a one day introduction to IG 20 course - sorry, AGP 40, if that makes any difference.
PN1805
During the course of your work do you have contact with the internal groups and external groups that support Telstra?---Yes, I do.
PN1806
And when does that occur?---As required. If I have an issue that I can't resolve on the spot I will need to talk to someone about it.
PN1807
And is there any particular time of the night or day that that contact might occur?---No. No, it depends on the problem.
PN1808
Can I ask you to turn to paragraph 24 and to read that to yourself?---Yes, I have done.
PN1809
Since October 2003 has the nature of your duties changed?---Not to any great degree.
PN1810
When you say not to any great degree could you explain if they have changed?---Well, prior to that time we had a network fault management who handled the detail of our work with the restoration activities and my work as an alarm monitorist was just to identify a problem and notify them and they would pick up the task and run it to completion. Now that group has been - or the two groups have been merged, but my particular role is still to do that. I have a person on my shift that hopefully is there that I can pass the work onto and they will perform that high level stuff.
PN1811
At paragraph 24 Mr Malden says that the work undertaken by the customer operations group is increasingly complex. Do you agree with that in relation to the work that you perform?---No, I don't.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1812
How long prior to October 2003 had you worked 12 hour shifts?---Approximately two years.
PN1813
And had you had any difficulty in that period in concentrating properly on the tasks for the duration of the 12 hour shift?---There were times when work was slow that you might have had difficulty but generally, no.
PN1814
And has that changed under the 8 hour shift arrangement?---Yes, I am finding it difficult to maintain concentration.
PN1815
And why is that?---Because I am so run down and physically tired.
PN1816
Mr Malden says there are a number of instances of staff falling asleep towards the end of shifts, particularly night shifts. Is that something that you have done or observed?---Yes.
PN1817
Can you elaborate on that?---As I said, when the work is not there it sometimes is a struggle to maintain the concentration and keep awake. Some people manage it better than others but some people have to have a little nap now and then.
PN1818
And has that changed under the 8 hour shift arrangement?---I think I am observing more naps taking place and even naps during the day shift which I hadn't seen before.
PN1819
Could I ask you to look at paragraph 24 again. About halfway down that paragraph Mr Malden says that certain minimum standards have been recently introduced and gives as an example a target for production of a diagnosis and report of 15 minutes from the event happening. Are you familiar with that target?---Yes, I am.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1820
When was that introduced, do you know?---I can't be sure of that because in my area we have always had that or a similar target so any change to the process wouldn't have been a change to us.
PN1821
Okay. And when you say you have had a similar target, has the targets - has the timeframe for that target been reduced at all?---Previously we have had a number of targets, depending on the severity or the product that was involved. Reducing it to - sorry, standardising it to 15 minutes just has the effect of reducing the number of things we have to worry about.
PN1822
Has that - can you comment on whether that has affected the level of concentration needed to sustain a shift?---Well, in my area it hasn't made any difference.
PN1823
Could I ask that the witness be shown the statement of Mr Millerd?
PN1824
THE COMMISSIONER: Who was it, I am sorry?
PN1825
MS BORNSTEIN: I am sorry, Commissioner?
PN1826
THE COMMISSIONER: Which statement?
PN1827
MS BORNSTEIN: Bruce Anthony Millerd, which is at tab 4 of the respondent's material.
PN1828
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Yes.
PN1829
MS BORNSTEIN: Could I ask you to turn to page 4 and read to yourself paragraph 21?---Yes, I have done.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1830
Mr Millerd will say that at no time were minimum numbers mandated; do you agree with that?---No, I don't. We had an AC technology focus group meeting in approximately July 2003 where minimum staffing levels were set and agreed to.
PN1831
Mr Downs, are you employed under an AWA - an Australian workplace agreement?---Yes, I am.
PN1832
When did you enter into that agreement?---I believe it was April 2003.
PN1833
And at the time you would have been working 12 hour shifts?---Correct.
PN1834
Yes. Mr Downs, if the Commission decided to vary the award to restore the 12 hour shifts and that did not - and Telstra did not apply that to employees on AWAs, what would be your position at the time that the AWA was due for renewal?---That would make me definitely cease an AWA and revert back to the award.
PN1835
And when is your AWA due for renewal?---Three year term, so Aprilish of next year, I think - could be the year after.
PN1836
No further questions.
PN1837
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Just before you sit down. Can I ask you a question, please, Mr Downs? From a lot of the evidence I have heard this case is raising a dispute about probably three things. The first is the nature of shift work. The second is the loss of money and the third is combining work with family responsibilities. From your point of view if there any one of those that has stronger emphasis than the other?---Definitely the last.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1838
Family responsibilities?---Family responsibilities and lifestyle.
PN1839
Yes?---It hasn't come up in my evidence, but I live in Melton, which is an hour and a half - - -
PN1840
I think it is in your statement?---It is in my statement, yes - which is an hour and a half journey at the best of times to work and an hour and a half journey at the best times from work and it is just killing me to work 8 hour shift.
PN1841
Now, you said in answer to a question from Ms Bornstein that you would return to the award. One of the things the employer - your employer says - one of the strong reasons they put was - for introducing this was that if they didn't save certain costs they would have to make large redundancies. If it is the combination of work and family responsibilities, from your point of view do I understand your answer to Ms Bornstein to be that you would trade off the money side of it for the capacity to have more time with your family?---Correct, yes.
PN1842
Thank you. Any questions that arise out of that?
PN1843
MS BORNSTEIN: No, no questions. Just wait there if you would.
PN1844
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wood.
PN1845
PN1846
MR WOOD: Could the witness be shown exhibit Tesltra1 which is I think marked for identification at this stage.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1847
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1848
MR WOOD: Commissioner, we have got a copy of that if that leaves you without one; we will hand one up to the witness.
PN1849
Mr Downs, have you got a two page table in fairly small font size which sets out all the employees who work in the switching and wireless section within the global operating centre?---Yes, I do.
PN1850
And at the top of the document you have is there a reference to team leader, Bernard Anglim who looks after the switching team?---Yes, there is.
PN1851
And underneath the notation in bond that he is the switching team leader are there 24 - approximately 24 names?---Yes, approximately, yes.
PN1852
That is the team that you work in?---Yes.
PN1853
I think your name is sixth - five down?---Mm.
PN1854
And your name is next to Mr Donald's name?---Correct.
PN1855
Do I take it from that - and tell me if I am wrong. Within that group of 24 you work in the same - another witness called it cell or team within that team of three or four people as Mr Donald?---Team is the correct term, yes.
PN1856
Team, I see?---Yes.
PN1857
THE COMMISSIONER: Cell has other connotations, I am afraid.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1858
MR WOOD: I think one the witnesses used the phrase, Commissioner?---Well, there are cells as well.
PN1859
I see?---And that is relating to technology.
PN1860
I understand from your evidence, in fact, at paragraph 17 of your statement, you say:
PN1861
In or about December the five week shift roster was changed to six when six teams were created replacing the former five teams.
PN1862
I take it from that that group of 24 is divided up into six teams - - -?---Yes.
PN1863
- - - of about - between three and four people in each team?---Correct.
PN1864
And I take it that because Mr Donald is in your team you are able to engage in this car pooling arrangement that you engage in with him?---That is correct, every time I am working, he is working.
PN1865
Yes. And I gather, given your answers to my learned friends questions about your ability to refuse overtime or additional shifts, that you try to, as far as possible, to co-ordinate your shifts with Mr Donald and he with you to enable this car pooling to be carried out effectively?---Well, our standard roster, when he is working, I am working, so, yes.
PN1866
When you came into the witness box today, Mr Downs, the first thing you did, as I understand things, was ask the Commission not to take into account paragraph 13 of your statement?---I modified it slightly, yes.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1867
Is that because you had read Mr Millerd's statement prior to coming in to give evidence?---No, it is not.
PN1868
Is it because someone had told you at paragraph 19 of Mr Millerd's statement, words to the effect - well, just read paragraph 19 of Mr Millerd's statement; I will hand it to you?---Thank you. Paragraph 19?
PN1869
Yes, if you just read that aloud?---
PN1870
In paragraph 12 of his statement Mr Downs describes a fear for his safety on the drive home when he works three night shifts in a row. I believe this claim is unfounded has a car pooling arrangement with Mr Donald. I believe that the driving is generally shared.
PN1871
You didn't make any mention in your witness statement, did you, originally, that the driving is generally shared?---At that stage it wasn't.
PN1872
I see, it is now?---Now, he drives on the night shift.
PN1873
Yes?---On the trip home.
PN1874
When did this arrangement come into place? How soon after you made your witness statement?---I can't be exactly sure, but possibly, a month, a month and a half ago.
PN1875
And you weren't trying to withhold or mislead the Commission by making the statement in the form that you had, it was just the car pooling arrangement came into effect afterwards, after you made this witness statement?---No, we have always driven the car - - -
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1876
You have always shared, car-pooled?---No, we haven't shared, I have driven - it is a Telstra leased vehicle - - -
PN1877
Right?--- - - - so I have always driven and Geoff has been a passenger up until recently when we discovered that I can't cope on night shifts so he does the driving home but I do all the other driving.
PN1878
I see. So, the car pooling arrangements has always been in place. For how long?---Two years.
PN1879
But the thing that has occurred since you made this witness statement is that you no longer drive home on nights, Mr Donald does?---Correct.
PN1880
And he had never done that previously?---He had done it occasionally but not generally.
PN1881
I see, but now he does it generally, that is the change?---He does it every time, yes.
PN1882
I see. And you weren't trying to, when you produced this witness statement, hide or mislead the Commission as to the amount of driving you actually did coming home on night shift?---No.
PN1883
If you just turn back to the two page table that I have given you, Mr Downs, and in that switching team group within the switching and wireless group - sorry, within the switching team within the switching and wireless group, there are four names, David Bozkiewycz, Geoff Donald, then immediately under that, your name, David Downs, then a fourth name, Peter Nelson, a bit further on. Those are the only - tell me if you don't know this, but do you know that those are the only four people within the whole of switching and wireless who are coming to give evidence before the Commission?---I didn't know that.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1884
You don't know?---Yes.
PN1885
Is it true to say that everyone within that group of 24 people either worked in alarm monitoring or network fault management prior to coming into this group?---I would say that is correct.
PN1886
And is it true to say that - I withdraw that. Some of the problems you refer to, for example, in paragraph 17 of your statement, are caused by the fact that the team sizes have changed because there are now six teams rather than five teams, is that right?---I will just refer to that paragraph, if you don't mind.
PN1887
Yes, sure?---Well, yes, there is that fact as well as the rolling in of NFM into the AM section.
PN1888
So, there is at least two factors that are causing the problems you identify in paragraph 17, that is, additional responsibilities or work as the result of fault management being merged with alarm monitoring?---Yes.
PN1889
It is one factor and the second factor is the fact that the teams have changed from five teams to six teams?---Yes, reducing the number of people on each team.
PN1890
Exactly?---Yes, yes.
PN1891
And I understand that you identify a third factor that might cause some of the problems and that is the change from 12 hour shifts to eight hour shifts. You are not able to identify, are you, Mr Downs, which one of those three factors has caused the problems or whether it is - your evidence is that it is a combination of the three things, is it not?---I am not an expert in rosters so I am unable to validify any of that - validify.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1892
Just going back to Telstra1 - sorry, the table that you have got in front of you. If you go down to the next group, that is the group that is - the team leader is Ms Val Djorseski, that is a team that is concerned with the mobile network?---Correct.
PN1893
And that team, as I understand things - and tell me if you don't know - was a team that traditionally didn't operate within the global operating centre?---Correct, they have only just recently come out to us.
PN1894
And they came from Windsor?---Correct.
PN1895
And they had worked eight hour shifts at Windsor or you don't know?---I am not familiar with their arrangements.
PN1896
You don't know?---I will just clarify that slightly. There are a few people in that group of people that were GOC workers previously.
PN1897
But from - on the main most of them have come from Windsor?---The majority, yes.
PN1898
Yes. I understood your evidence-in-chief to be to the effect that when you were on night shift during the 12 hour rosters occasionally you and other people would get tired and take a nap when work was slow. Is that a fair summary of what your evidence is?---Yes, that is, yes, pretty fair.
PN1899
And I take it that one of your criticisms of the current arrangement, whether it is due to the change of 12 to eight hour rosters or the change from five to six teams or the merging of network fault management with the alarm monitoring, is that resources are not available at the right time to deal with the work that is required to be done at that time?---On occasion, yes.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1900
And in short, on occasion, there is too much work for the staff that are rostered on to work?---And, conversely, too many staff for the work that is there.
[11.05am]
PN1901
In relation to that rostering of - trying to get the right number of people on the right shifts to do the work that is needed, Mr Bruce Anglim, your team leader plays an important role?---Correct.
PN1902
And he will often ask you and other members of your team to ask you if you would be prepared to change your shift from day relief to go to, say, fill afternoon shift or night shift?---Yes, and also move from night shift to day shift, from afternoon to day shift.
PN1903
Depending on his perception of the work that was required to be done at that time?---Correct.
PN1904
And you would be free to say, yes, I don't want to work or, yes, I will work?---You are free to say that, yes.
PN1905
And - - -?---You might feel obligated to give him a positive response.
PN1906
Yes. And from what you have observed about Mr Anglim in the time that he has been your team leader, you can see that he is trying to match the staff available with the work that is required to be done?---He is making every - his best effort, I am sure.
PN1907
You were asked a question - do you have Mr Millerd's statement in front of you, Mr Downs?---Yes, I do.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1908
You were asked a question about paragraph 21 of Mr Millerd's statement?---Mm.
PN1909
And I understood - I withdraw that. Mr Bruce Anglim, your team leader - sorry, Mr Bernard Anglim, your team leader, has never told you, has he, that there are minimum staffing levels?---No, he hasn't.
PN1910
And neither has his boss, the manager of the switching and wireless section Mr Bruce Millerd?---Correct.
PN1911
Can you have a look at paragraph 23 of the statement of Mr Millerd. This is an example of the attempts Mr Anglim does to match work with the available staff, and to try and take account of staff's needs to have time off. You agree that that event described at paragraph 23 occurred?---Yes, I do.
PN1912
You were asked a question about process control leaders and service control leaders. I think the title was service co-ordination leader. Is that right, or you can't recall?---Can't recall.
PN1913
Okay. Well, whether it is service control leader or service co-ordination leader, the service co-ordination leader or service control leader is responsible for ensuring that the right team is available at the right time if an emergency or a serious event occurs?---You may have that documented but I am not familiar with that part of his role; and its continuity, service continuity leader.
PN1914
I am sorry?---I just remembered it.
PN1915
For example, if a bush fire breaks out, the service continuity leader might try to grab people from different areas to try to get the faults that are caused by major event fixed as soon as possible?---That could be the case.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1916
You just don't know?---I just don't know.
PN1917
Okay. I think your evidence about the process control leader was that the process control leader has a slightly different job: that is, to ensure that communications from your group go out to the relevant external parties, whether they be customers or other Telstra businesses, to tell them what is being done in relation to the fault?---He is an interpreter between the information that I produce and the people that do that job.
PN1918
And he can tell you from time to time: I want the information produced in this way or in this way. And what you are saying is it can't be understood readily?---Yes. He comes and asks me for clarification.
PN1919
Okay. And to that extent, and I am not saying it is a major extent, you are responsible to the process control leader?---I am - I try to help his needs.
PN1920
You were asked a question in examination in-chief about the complexity of the work done by your section, that is - or your team, the switching team within the switching and wireless group within the global operating centre. Do I understand your particular work now involves two aspects - the line monitoring and network fault management?---The work of my cell does, yes, but my particular expertise doesn't extend to the network fault management area.
PN1921
I see. Are you making a comment there about your historical expertise rather than what is expected of you in the future?---To a certain degree, yes. But you do - you work to your strength and if - - -
PN1922
I understand that, but is it fair to say that within each of the teams or cells within the switching team it is expected that people within that team, no matter whether they have come from alarm monitoring or network fault management, will try to develop the skills that they don't have because they haven't worked in the other side of the business?---I would suggest that is the hope.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1923
And you are being encouraged and - to pick up these other skills?---We are, but there is no time to do that.
PN1924
And you expect, don't you, to be given some training in the skills that you don't have - that is the network fault management skills - in the months and years to come?---There has been a suggestion that we are supposed to sit closer with our - to XNFM colleagues and try to pick up their knowledge on the job training.
PN1925
And you expect to be given not only that informal type of training in the future but more formal type of training?---I would doubt that that would be occurring.
PN1926
If Mr Millerd comes into the witness box and says that is what he expects to do, you don't have any reason to say that that type of evidence would be untrue, do you?---I wouldn't like to call it untrue, but I have been asking for training for - since I have come there and haven't received any apart from - - -
PN1927
Sure, I understand that but I am really - if you tell me - just tell me that you don't know if you don't know, but I rather expect or rather understand that your expectation and everyone within the team is that they will be formally trained in the skills that they haven't had previously as a result of the merger of network fault management and the alarm monitoring. Is that fair?---I wouldn't think that there is a formal training course available.
PN1928
And leave aside availability, do you expect that you and other members of the team will be formally trained in these other skills? If you don't know just tell me you don't know?---Well, I don't know that that is going to take place.
PN1929
You were asked a question about your AWA and a related question from the Commission about the trade-off that you might perceive in relation - or you do perceive in relation to the hours that you spend at work and the amount of money that you want in return for the time that you spend at work. Is it true to say that when your AWA runs out, and I think you said in April 2004 or - April 2005 or 2006, I am not sure whether - is that right?---Well, I lose track of time a lot; I am a shift worker but - - -
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS XXN MR WOOD
PN1930
That is fine?---One year, 2004, so it would be April 2006.
PN1931
In April 2006 when your AWA comes up for expiry, at that point depending on how you have been treated under the AWA, what is on offer under the award and the terms of the AWA that you might then be offered, your decision will depend on those range of factors, will it not?---Yes, to a certain degree but if - - -
PN1932
And until you get to that time and are presented with a new AWA and look at the award that is in force at that time and having - making an assessment of how you have been treated under the AWA, you are not in a position now to say, without the aid of a crystal ball, what exactly you will do in April 2006 are you?---That is correct, yes.
PN1933
I have nothing further in cross-examination, Commissioner.
PN1934
PN1935
MS BORNSTEIN: You agreed with my learned friend that you are not now in a position to say what you will do in April 2006 because you are not sure of what might and might not be on offer. Assuming that what was offered was the terms of the AWA that you are presently on - so assuming in 2006 that what was offered to you were the terms of the AWA that you are presently on, save and except for any wages increases that might otherwise flow, what would be your position in relation to renewing the AWA or going back on the award under a 12 hour shift regime?---Well, if I had the option to - if the option was, stay on the AWA and your eight hours, go to the award and your 12 hours, I would go to the award.
PN1936
Thank you. No further questions.
**** DAVID EDWARD DOWNS RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1937
PN1938
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wood, before we call the next witness, you can tell Mr Malden he is going to get a question from me.
PN1939
MR WOOD: Yes. I rather anticipated that given your question to Mr Downs.
PN1940
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. And you can put him on notice because I would like him to reflect on the matter.
PN1941
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN1942
THE COMMISSIONER: As the most senior Telstra manager who I think is giving evidence today - or in these proceedings I am going to ask him the question as to what would be the impact on his business operating options if the cost of the 12 hour shift was reduced in a way which would obviate the need for large scale redundancies, as he puts in paragraph 12 of his witness statement. But if such reductions in cost and working patterns were only available to person who qualified under article 1 of the convention concerning equal opportunities and equal treatment for men and women workers, workers with family responsibilities. Now, I don't wish to confine what counsel put to me, nor have I reached any concluded views, I just wanted to be sure that the issue was on the table for examination.
PN1943
MR WOOD: I will take some instructions on that point.
PN1944
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
PN1945
MS BORNSTEIN: Commissioner, I only have one more witness available before lunch. Would it be convenient to take a very short break?
PN1946
THE COMMISSIONER: Of course. We will adjourn for 10 minutes.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.19am]
RESUMED [11.32am]
PN1947
MS BORNSTEIN: I call Mr Donald. Mr Donald, could you take a seat in the witness box, please? Mr Donald's statement is at tab 7, Commissioner.
PN1948
PN1949
THE COMMISSIONER: Please sit down, Mr Donald.
PN1950
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Donald, could you give your full name, address and occupation to the Commission, please? And when you are answering the questions could you address your answers to the Commission? So if you tilt your chair a little then - without falling off - then that should help. So could you give your full name, your address and your occupation to the Commission, please?---Geoffrey Stuart Donald. (Address Supplied) I am a technologist, band 8, at GOC in Clayton.
PN1951
Thank you, Mr Donald. Mr Donald, has a witness statement been prepared on your instructions in relation to this matter?---Yes.
PN1952
Do you have a copy there?---I do.
PN1953
Have you read it recently?---Yes.
PN1954
Are there any amendments that you wish to make to the statement?---No.
PN1955
No. Mr Donald, are you able to swear that the statement is true and correct?---I can - I do.
PN1956
PN1957
MS BORNSTEIN: Thank you. For completeness, Mr Donald, in which area of the Global Operations Centre do you work?---The switch - switching area, system 12 cell.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1958
And in which building is that located?---The surveillance hall known as M6 on - - -
PN1959
That is the large - - -?---The large one with the screens at the front. In fact we are in the front row.
PN1960
THE COMMISSIONER: You would get a good view of the screens?---Yeah, that is the point, that is the whole reason we are there because we use them.
PN1961
I see.
PN1962
And what duties do you perform?---Monitor and - main client function is to monitor the system 12 switching alarms and rectify any of the faults we can, to answer any phone calls relating to customer or other peoples' inquiries and - and try to rectify any customer outages that turn up and to follow all the due processes. We also do a limited amount of that similar stuff - that sort of functions for the D&S platform which is a voice - customer voice enunciated platform. It is a smaller - public switch but we have active management of that.
PN1963
And has the scope of your duties changed since October 2003?---They changed to the eight hour shift time - yes, in a sense. We used to - the function was to monitor the alarms, now we do all that I said before, but in the previously - I was doing most of the functions anyway.
PN1964
Can I ask that the witness be shown the witness statement of Mr Malden/
PN1965
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1966
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Donald, could I ask you to turn to page 5 and read paragraphs 20 and 21 to yourself, please?---Yes, I have done that.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1967
Thank you. Mr Donald, you will see that Mr Malden states that the peak in demand occurs between approximately the hours of 7 am and 10 pm, do you agree?---No.
PN1968
Why not?---I believe the timeframe is not long enough, it is beyond 10 pm.
PN1969
What happens after 10 pm?---Well, I assume - I make the assumption that he is talking about the Eastern Daylight time - Eastern Standard time here. He has forgotten about the Western Australian people as well and in summer time they are three hours behind, so, from where we sit the timeframe is a lot longer. And also he hasn't accounted - he doesn't seem to have accounted for the planned work - planned work which goes on which can impact on customers so that - why it is planned to be outside the 7 to 10 - it is done late at night or early in the morning, whichever way you look at it, so lessen the impact on the customer - there is work done in that timeframe which impacts on the people working at the GOC, shift work at night, or early morning, whichever way you look at it.
PN1970
Mr Donald, Mr Malden states that the 12 hour shift arrangement didn't balance staff and the volume of work. Under - from your observations, under the 12 hour shift arrangement, were staffing levels sufficient to cope with the work as it was then done under the - during day time hours?---Yes, I believe it is so.
PN1971
And in your opinion are staffing levels sufficient to deal properly and adequately with the volume of work during the day under the present staffing levels?---Yes, but there is a problem around 3 o'clock because of the people coming and going, you know, there is some continuity - problems could be lost, faults or inquiries, because you need to talk to other people coming and the ones going. So in the 12 hour shift that wouldn't - there are three of these times during the day in the 24 hours, now there is - and under the 12 hour one there would be only two, so there is room for ambiguity and problems to set in when different peoples' perceptions are different. And I believe that has caused a few problems - more than a few problems in the eight hour roster. There were - I have to say there was also problems - there would be the same sort of, similar problems would have - could have happened in the 12 hour days but because there is one less there is one less chance for errors to set in.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1972
Under the eight hour shift arrangement, in your area, how many employees are rostered on day shift?---Well, I have to say ambiguity again, but it depends on which day of the week it is. Sometimes it can be - it can be up to five out of a total pool of seven people.
PN1973
And does that include day relief?---Yes, that would include the day relief person if they were available.
PN1974
Have you been rostered, yourself, on day relief?---Yes, I think it is - since the eight hour roster started it would be three times.
PN1975
And when rostered on day relief have you always worked day shift?---Except when I was on holidays. It is a time you tend to take annual leave and I think there were two occasions that I have been moved, or - it has been altered. Instead of calling it day relief it has become day shift.
PN1976
Have you been offered, since October 2003, the opportunity to work overtime or been recalled?---Yes.
PN1977
Are you able to estimate how often that has occurred?---Two or three times.
PN1978
Have you accepted on each occasion?---Yes.
PN1979
And are you given a choice as to whether to accept or refuse?---My - you are given a choice where it is up to the individual to accept it or not.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1980
And why have you accepted?---Mainly because - I have accepted each time they have asked me because I am - because of where - where I live, it is in Melton and as you may understand that GOC is on the other side of town and by the time they get to me on the roster, it is usually the last person and I feel obliged, basically, for the customers first and then my fellow workers. Because if I am not there, there probably won't be anybody there - of any - of the correct sort of skill level required to do it. There are other people with lesser skills that they bring in but they - on a number of occasions - and they have used these people and they have to leave things out - been unfairly told to prioritise work, important work has had to be left. This is under the planned event part, they have not been able to carry out planned work which should have happened. So it has happened a number of times so - that is when they haven't - I haven't been called in last. I have observed that when I have come the next day, you know. So, basically, I would say I feel obliged to accept these whenever I am asked.
PN1981
Under the 12 hour shift arrangement, Mr Donald, did you have a team leader?---Yes, I did.
PN1982
And from your observations what were the duties of the team leader?---Basically, that to lead us. He did all the functions of what you would expect of a first level supervisor to do. Looked after our leave and organised. Because not only - he was not only in charge of the system 12 cell, all the other cells work on the floor in that team, in that work group. So he had other - like, broadband people, transmission people and special service people to look after, too. Because his particular skill set was transmission, he could actually help them with - their faults as well and he did have a rudimentary understanding of system 12 so he understood which was a critical alarm or answer the phone with some sort of degree of intelligence. So if we weren't available he could take the messages or come and get us. I mean, he decided, you know, make decisions on the work we did. And he basically was - and also the staff development plan, organised, etcetera, and the staffing side of things, too.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1983
Mr Donald, under the 12 hour shift arrangement where did you obtain technical advice and support from?---We did have another person in the cell which was the NFN function but collectively we were back-of-house during the day because the highest skill level resided in the other building - they used to be in the city, they are called C&N - not C&N - can't really name what they were called. But after hours you could access them by a pager process where they had on-call people available and if they deemed the requirements, they always dealt with the vendor.
PN1984
And taking use of the present position, Mr Donald, from your observations what are the duties of your team leader?---The current team leader is basically a clerk, I - I don't want to run down clerks but he is basically - monitors the roster and provides the staff for the process control basically, and has any briefings that management deem - need to be done, like afternoon shift - before the start of the afternoon shift there is window when you can have team meetings.
PN1985
And if you require technical assistance and support under the present system, where do you obtain that from?---Well, under the new regime - under the back-of-house during the day in G&S - the title for these people is G&S - don't ask - that's what we always called them, they have had another name change just lately. They were there, plus there was another cell, pro-active cell - I think they call themselves now - doing fault - long faults that we presented to them that need longer term. So they are available, their skill set. There are software and data people that work there, too, and of course the G&S component, day component are there. But after hours or after 5 o'clock, now - they used to work longer but now they only work to 5 it is the same process, via pager to these people - to a paging centre which then calls the appropriate person. In our other work - we have got two other environments we are involved with - is the D&S platform is direct to a re-call list, after hours. That hasn't changed. And our operator service function which was changed during the eight hour shift component which, now, it is direct to - re-call direct to the vendor which is Alcatel.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1986
Thank you. Mr Donald, do you receive, under this, presently, new work instructions?---Not - I think there has been one or two. There has been a change to the way the work - the faults are processed under the TDA system and the Conin system, we receive them. But actual technical ones I don't think we have actually had any.
PN1987
And how did you receive those ones that you did receive?---Via the Intranet and the TDA one by a technology leader briefing.
PN1988
And under the 12 hour shift regime how did you receive new work instructions?---Basically the same way - basically the same way.
PN1989
And do you receive information about changes to existing processes from time to time?---Yes, that is what I was alluding to before.
PN1990
Oh, I see?---No, they were basically process changes - not to the platform that we work on.
PN1991
Thank you. Since October 2003 have you undertaken any training?---One occupational health issue, I think, on dangerous chemicals. That is an on-line training which is supposed to happen during what is commonly called Triple Up Tuesday, which is once every six weeks there is when they are - when I was telling you before there were five people, five people there, and one of them is doing - that is a training day, or should be, but mainly it is those persons who have done work - I have never actually done training on that day since the eight-hour shift has been implemented.
[11.50am]
PN1992
Can I ask you to turn to paragraph 24 of Mr Malden's statement at page 6. Can you read that to yourself, Mr Donald?---Yes, I have read that.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN1993
Mr Donald, Mr Malden says that the work undertaken by the customer operations group is increasingly complex. Is your work increasingly complex?---No, I don't believe it has. I believe it has been basically constant across the eight-hour and the 12 hours time frame.
PN1994
How long have you worked 12-hour shifts prior to October 2003?---Without exact company records I would think it is about five to six years.
PN1995
And can I ask you, Mr Donald, in that period did you have any difficulties concentrating properly on tasks for the duration of a 12-hour shift?---I don't believe I did.
PN1996
Mr Malden says that there were a number of instances of staff falling asleep towards the end of shift, particularly night shift. Have you ever observed staff falling asleep towards the end of shifts, particularly night shift?---Yes.
PN1997
Have you under the present system observed staff falling asleep?---Yes, both - clarify that. In the 12-hour day both during the day and at night for that matter, and under the eight-hour system during all three shifts including the day shift, the afternoon one and at night there has been, I have noted on a number of occasions more than one person has sort of - not with us.
PN1998
Mr Donald, you see that Mr Millerd at paragraph 24 about a little over halfway down refers to the introduction of minimum standards that the GOC must meet, and gives as an example the introduction of a target for production of a diagnosis and report of 15 minutes. Are you familiar with that target?---That was when I was - when you earlier talked about rolling out procedures, that was one of the procedures that was rolled out, and at the time I did point out to - I was under the understanding it was 10 minutes, and we always strived in system 12 man to meet 10 minutes, and I am pretty sure without checking records more than 90 per cent of the time when we had these sort of events we met 10 minutes, not 15, so we are surprised it was actually 15. And I would like to comment on - in 24 there he talks about broken chairs and people falling
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
asleep. That may or may not be the case, but at any given day I think I believe he was out there yesterday, if you looked down to the right there was a whole collection of chairs, they were broken, and it has been an ongoing issue since exhibition days of chairs, problem with chairs breaking. It is not just from that. They are just not up to it.
PN1999
THE COMMISSIONER: There would have been a lot of sleepers if that was the only cause yesterday?---Well, yes. They definitely are - there is a structural problem with the chairs being used. That is just - sorry about that, I thought I had to bring that up.
PN2000
That is all right.
PN2001
MS BORNSTEIN: Yes, thank you, Mr Donald. Could I ask that the witness be shown the witness statement of Mr Millerd, please. Could I ask you, Mr Donald, to read to yourself paragraph 15 of the statement of Mr Millerd. Do you agree with Mr Millerd's statement that the typical work load for system 12 workers is fairly minimal?---No, I don't.
PN2002
Why not?---Because it has been fairly constant for a number of years, over five or six years, all the time I have worked there, and during this period of time since the eight-hour roster has been used there has been a new software level upgrade has been introduced and that has caused a number of different work requirements and faults that have turned up that need to be monitored, and by the nature of the beast you cannot say that because you don't know when the faults are going to turn up.
PN2003
Mr Donald, could I ask you to read paragraph 16 of Mr Millerd's statement and read it to yourself?---Yes.
PN2004
Have you spoken to anyone about feeling uptight and overworked?---It was not Mr Millerd, it was Mr Calabro at the time, it was a single event.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2005
I am sorry, it was who?---It was Mr Calabro. He was acting team leader at the time.
PN2006
Yes. And when did that occur?---Probably in March, early March or April, before Easter.
PN2007
I have no further questions for the witness. Would you just wait there.
PN2008
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Wood?
PN2009
PN2010
MR WOOD: Can the witness be shown exhibit Telstra1, the one page graph, please. Mr Donald, I understand you are employed under the award not under an AWA?---Yes.
PN2011
And can you look at the table that I have just given you?---Yes.
PN2012
Can you see your name a little way down from the top, I think it is five or six down?---Yes, TWO8.
PN2013
That is your band level?---That is my - band 8, that is a band 8, yes.
PN2014
And next to your name is Mr Downs?---Yes.
PN2015
And Mr Downs is in your roster group of four people within that team of 24 or so within switching?---He works in the AXE cell of the same team or work group, whatever definition you wish to use.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2016
Mr Downs was - - -?---The man here before.
PN2017
- - - just here?---Yes.
PN2018
To give evidence?---Yes.
PN2019
And he is the person that you requested to be moved into his team so you could car-pool with him?---Or vice versa, yes, so we were together.
PN2020
He requested to move into your team, is that the way it went?---No, he is the person with the car, I requested.
PN2021
You requested?---Yes.
PN2022
And that request was accommodated?---In the end, yes.
PN2023
And I understand that you share the driving in the car pooling?---We do now.
PN2024
But you didn't used to?---Because it is a Telstra leased vehicle to him so, yes, the answer is yes, we do now.
PN2025
I understand that you used to work in alarm monitoring, is that right?---In a 12 hour regime, yes.
PN2026
And you now have to do both network fault management and alarm monitoring?---And customer enquiries and general enquiries that come to the floor for persistent type faults and you know enquiries - - -
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2027
Yes, part of your role in switching - sorry, in your team within switching there are new technologies introduced from time to time?---There has been, yes.
PN2028
I think you just gave some evidence about there being a software upgrade recently?---Yes, our - the particular piece of switching that I deal with, yes.
PN2029
And you have to come to terms with these new pieces of software as they are upgraded from time to time?---Yes.
PN2030
And you also have to come to terms with the network fault management work that you didn't do previously or you hadn't done for some time?---Yes, in the group that I did, we - I did a significant amount of the fault work as well.
PN2031
You did a significant amount of - - -?---The network system 12 type faults as well up to the ones where we - that could be done that didn't have to require other people doing back of house work.
PN2032
So your job - now, you have to do both network fault management and alarm monitoring. You are saying in alarm monitoring you always did a bit of network fault management?---In the group that I was, yes, to a degree, but - - -
PN2033
But you do it to?--- - - - not to the degree other groups did.
PN2034
And not to the degree you are expected to do it now?---No, because now we are on our own, basically, you ask for the documentation. And most of the documentation is electronic of course and it is Alcatel which is sometimes hard to get your hands around.
PN2035
As I understand things - and tell me if I am wrong, Mr Donald - Mr Bozkiewycz works in your switching team - - -?---No.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2036
- - - within the group of 24 people?---Under Mr - Bernard's - it is Bernard's team - Bernard Anglim's team - - -
PN2037
Yes?--- - - - and switching, yes, he works in - he is part of his team.
PN2038
But he is in a different group of four on the six team roster?---He is a - yes, he is in the same cell as David Downs, the previous witness but in a different team. Mr Bozkiewycz, he is not there - put it this way, he is not there during our afternoon or night shifts on a normal basis when we are there. He could be there during the day because of - you know, when there is five groups of people there.
PN2039
He gave some evidence - and I am just trying to work out whether you might be mistaken in this regard and you might want to consider what you said. He gave some evidence that the performance standards - he came to give some evidence on Wednesday?---I understand, yes.
PN2040
And he gave some evidence that performance standards within this group had changed from 20 minutes down to 15 minutes for a significant - that was his words - outage. I understood your evidence to be performance standards actually got looser from 10 minutes to 15 minutes. Given what I have just told you about what Mr Bozkiewycz said, can you explain why you said what you said? There may be some way explaining, I am not making any - casting any aspersions?---No, I understand - I can see ambiguity because Mr Bozkiewycz works in a different cell to myself. He works in the AXE cell which have a different set of criteria for faults than us. I work in system 12 which is a distributed type system where there is a centralised one, so - this is only my understanding now. The nature of their faults - the customer causing the faults is different to ours in the system 12 world. And in our world - in a system 12 world, what I said before was that when we say it is looser we always try to work to a high standard we could which is - was pretty hard when you have got all the electronic, what we would call, paperwork - got involved with it - the reporting process, which I understand the reason for, to meet these sorts - the reporting part of the target.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2041
I understand you tried to meet within your technology a time limit of, you say, 10 minutes, but is it true to say that Mr Anglim or Mr Millerd, or both, have explained to you and other members within the switching team that the performance standard now required of that team has been reduced from 20 minutes to 15 minutes, notwithstanding that you may have always done it within 10 minutes. Is that right?---They explained to us it is now 15 minutes. I don't believe - said it was 20.
PN2042
I understand that, but, they have explained to you that the time is now 15 minutes?---Yes, they have.
PN2043
And there was no performance standard prior to that of 10 minutes, was there?---Well, not now I allude to it, there is not - there was not. I was lead to believe that but it was actually 15.
PN2044
I just didn't understand your evidence then, Mr Donald, I might rephrase the question. There never was a performance standard that you had to meet in your group, of 10 minutes, was there?---No.
PN2045
Do I take it from what you said about people getting tired on 12 hour and eight hour shifts that, in your experience, people get tired when there is not enough work to do?---I never said they got tired, I can't say whether they were tired or not, I was asked whether they were asleep.
PN2046
I am sorry?---And my observation was they - well, you can tell when somebody is asleep when their eyes are not open for a significant period and I can't tell the reason behind it. But not being a medical person but I suspect one of the persons might have had that sleep apnea problem.
PN2047
Very well?---But I couldn't say on medical grounds that.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2048
If you look at Telstra - that table you have got in front of you which has the team of 24 people in the switching team and the team leader is Bernard Anglim. Do you know that four of the people - and the only four within Mr Millerd's overall team to give evidence before the Commission come from that switching team?---I know there is four people in Bernard's group that are giving evidence, yes.
PN2049
Yes and you don't know whether or not any other people are giving evidence?---Well, I know of them - if I have seen a list and obviously talked to people - I know others are but I don't know them personally.
PN2050
Is it fair to say that the switching team is made of the people who have been around Telstra for a longer period of time and have typically worked on older technologies for a longer period of time, that is, within Mr Millerd's group?---The people that work in switching, you mean - in switching - I can only talk for switching because there is older technologies in transmission as well.
PN2051
Sure?---But in switching, because it has been around longer, the people who have started with it have tended to stay with the technology which has provided Telstra with many benefits, I believe, a stability and expertise.
PN2052
Sure, I have no doubt there is a lot of people - - -?---I agree with you though - what you are saying is true but the reason why they stay, you would have to ask each person but that is why I stayed with what I do.
PN2053
Do you think - I will just perhaps ask you a slightly more narrow question because - leaving aside the transmission people who are managed by Mr Vimalanathan - - -?---Yes.
PN2054
- - - within the group of people who you see listed on that table there you would accept that the people have been around Telstra for longer and have generally worked on the older technologies, are the people in your group, the switching group. Is that a fair comment?---In general, yes.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2055
And if you look at the next team down, the wireless team, do you know where most of the people from the wireless team came from prior to starting work at the global operating centre or you don't know?---A few of them I do know but not the significant number, they came from the AXE switching background and because it is compatible technologies and they moved.
PN2056
Did you know whether they came from Windsor and have only recently come to the global operating centre?---I know that some have but some of them came from Exhibition with us in the switching group and because of the numbers - management couldn't attract the numbers to fill all the positions required and they moved some of the people but that is outside my expertise because they were AXE type people there. None of our people, I believe, in switching and system 12 switching was involved with that.
PN2057
Given that the only people within Mr Millerd's group that is on the table in front of you to come give evidence before the Commission come from the switching group, do you think it is fair to say that the people within that group, because they had been around longer and they had been involved in older technologies, are less likely to be adaptable to and be comfortable with changing work conditions?---No, I can expand on that, if you like.
PN2058
That is okay?---With my own personal experiences, I came from a much older technology which is now defunct. The analog technology at Telstra has made - in Australia we don't have any analog switching technology any more and I was moved to system 12 which is digital switch which was completely new to myself and I managed to learn - get up to speed - it was pretty daunting - but I got up to speed before the manager at the time, Mr Purcell, agreed that he needed people on shift work and asked me to do such. So I believe I have adapted many times over and the DMS switch, I knew nothing about, we had taken that on.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2059
Leaving aside your ability to adapt to technologies, do you think it is better - I am not being critical about this. Do you think it is fair to say that people within the group that you work in, although they might be adaptable to changes in technology, are more comfortable than the other people within Mr Millerd's team to changes in other aspects of their working conditions?---Well, I can speak for some of them if I have actually discussed these issues and myself personally - we are quite prepared if Mr Millerd wanted us to do other work. I can't see any reason - I personally wouldn't say no to him, off the top of my head, because I would be scared of the change - I think I have managed change quite well and I believe everybody else - the seven other people that I work insisted at one stage that we did have access to the new internet alliance before it got out of hand. We did manage them for a while which was totally different and Mr Millerd - Malden, in his wisdom, decided he needed a separate action service group and then all that function went to them. So we did start on a completely different technology, though rudimentary I must say, at the time, but I think everybody in system 12 land demonstrated a keenness to take on new stuff. And even though the DMS platform is an old technology it was completely different to us and we have all taken - and in actual fact I believe - I personally and others have asked to learn more about it so we can add more value to it.
PN2060
I will just show you another graph - sorry, table, Mr Donald. Can the witness be shown exhibit 5 to Mr Malden's statement? You are asking questions about Mr Malden's assessment of the work flow within the whole global operations centre not just your area, the switching and wireless group, and not just your area within the switching and wireless group of the switching team. That is the graph upon which Mr Malden based his evidence that there is a peak between 7 am and 10 pm and you made some comments about that in your examination-in-chief. You don't suggest, do you, having now had a chance to look at this graph, that Mr Malden's assessment for the global operating centre as a whole is incorrect, do you or you just don't know?---I couldn't comment on that because I am not privileged to that sort of information.
PN2061
You gave some evidence about changes to the the way you were supervised prior to the restructure as opposed to now and one of the things you mentioned was the creation of the technology leader role?---That has happened, yes.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2062
That is a role that wasn't present in your previous position within alarm monitoring, was it?---No.
PN2063
And you had gave some evidence that you had been receiving briefings from the technology leader in your team since the restructure?---The briefings we received wasn't from our particular technology leader but another technology leader.
PN2064
Technology leader?---That was related to how the ticket process works - the changes that management made to the ticket process which was not that long ago. It is still a work in progress, it has been in progress for quite a while but they have refined - management are refining it. I understand the reasons for it. The technology leader in system 12 land is the NFM person I used to work in the 12 hour roster process.
PN2065
I take it that your position is that there should be an attempt by management to roster sufficient staff on at the right times to deal with the amount of work that needs to be done at that time?---Yes.
PN2066
And Mr Downs just gave some evidence before you came to the witness box, Mr Donald, and in answer to a question from me about whether he thought your team leader, Mr Bernard Anglim was trying to do that, he said, yes, he thought Mr Anglim was trying to do that. You would agree with that, wouldn't you?---To his best ability he would be with the constraints he has. But I would have to make the comment that under the 12 hour roster there was always two people per 12 hour roster available to assist in 12 land and in the start of the eight hour roster, before Mr Inglis took over, we had an acting - a number of acting - original team leader we had in the 12 hour one became the eight hour one. And the understanding then was always there would be two people available in system 12 DMS platform alarm monitoring which would mean, basically, no change; in a sense it has changed.
**** GEOFFREY STUART DONALD XXN MR WOOD
PN2067
And you accept that some of the problems that you have identified, including the problem you have just identified, is due to the change from five teams to six within your areas?---No, I would suggest that the - taking system 12 technology and its small cousin - it is DMS - in a totality, in a 12 hour roster there were 10 people involved in it all the time and now under the 8 hour roster however way you mix it up there are seven shift workers involved in system 12 and its dependants now in the big house. So I would suggest there has been a significant reduction.
PN2068
You accept that whether or not there is 12 hour shifts or 8 hour shifts, if you move from five to six teams there is going to be less people with system 12 experience like you on those teams?---Not being a roster expert but I assume - I have to accept what you are saying.
PN2069
Mr Millerd is going to come to the Commission and say exactly that. You don't disagree with that, do you?---All I can say is what - - -
PN2070
What, you say you don't know?--- - - - is what I see on the ground.
PN2071
Just try and answer my question, okay, Mr Donald?---Yeah, yeah, I am sorry, but I can't - I can't answer that question.
PN2072
I don't have anything further in cross-examination, Commissioner.
PN2073
THE COMMISSIONER: Any re-examination?
PN2074
PN2075
THE COMMISSIONER: Is that the witnesses before lunch, is it?
PN2076
MS BORNSTEIN: Commissioner, we are ahead of ourselves.
PN2077
THE COMMISSIONER: Excellent. All right. Well, we will adjourn till 2.15. Thank you, the matter is adjourned until 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.22pm]
RESUMED [2.18pm]
PN2078
MS BORNSTEIN: Commissioner, if I might call Peter Hoare. I will give you the tab number if you will bear with me.
PN2079
THE COMMISSIONER: 22.
PN2080
PN2081
MS BORNSTEIN: Sorry, Commissioner.
PN2082
Mr Hoare, could you give your full name, address and occupation to the Commission please, and when you do so could you give your answers to the Commission?---Peter Jarrod Hoare. (Address Supplied) And I am employed as a technologist - technology leader in the Special Services area which comes under the Switching and Wireless Division of Network Services, Customer Operations.
PN2083
Mr Hoare, has a witness statement been prepared on your instructions in relation to this matter?---Yes.
PN2084
Do you have a copy with you?---Yes, I do.
PN2085
Mr Hoare, have you read that recently?---Yes, I have.
PN2086
Are there any amendments that you wish to make to it?---No.
PN2087
Mr Hoare, are you able to swear that witness statement is true and correct?---Yes.
PN2088
PN2089
MS BORNSTEIN: I have no questions of the witness.
**** PETER JARROD HOARE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2090
PN2091
MR WOOD: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN2092
Can the witness be shown exhibit Telstra 1, please? I think we can hand a copy to him. Mr Hoare, I think you said, you gave evidence that you are in the Special Services Team within the Wireless and Switching Team, or Switching and Wireless Group?---Yes, that is correct.
PN2093
I understand your team leader is Mr Daryl Kennedy?---That is correct.
PN2094
And would you have a look at that table that has been handed to you and about three-quarters of the way down, or four-fifths of the way down there is a reference to Daryl Kennedy and his title as Pro-active Services Team Leader?---Yes, that is correct.
PN2095
Is that what you mean by the Special Services Team?---Special Services Team has now come under the control of Daryl Kennedy as part of the Pro-active Team.
PN2096
Services Team?---Yeah.
PN2097
And I understand that recently you have just accepted a promotion to move off shift onto a day role?---No, that is not correct. I - - -
PN2098
Which bit is not correct, the promotion or the day role?---The promotion. The promotion.
**** PETER JARROD HOARE XXN MR WOOD
PN2099
The promotion, okay. So you have remained at TW9 - - -?---Yeah.
PN2100
- - - but you have moved from shift to a day role?---I am still presently on the shift because we have got a staff shortage problem.
PN2101
I understand. You have got a right to - Telstra has got a right to keep you on - to either give you six months' notice or require you to work out that notice because there is a staff shortage and you have to work out another month or so in your current position, is that right?---No. Well, we need - we haven't got enough staff to run the shifts - the teams that we have got.
PN2102
So over the full six months?
PN2103
You just don't know?---No - well, it could well be.
PN2104
You have given some evidence about your involvement in a working party in August 2003. That wasn't your last involvement in the process concerning negotiations about the roster changes, was it?---Yes, it was, as I can recall.
PN2105
Well, perhaps I can refresh your memory. Do you recall a meeting in September 2003, that is a month after the working party meetings that you referred to in your statement which included you and Mr Cooper and Ms Brunt, who is in court today?---Yeah. Yeah.
PN2106
So just going back to my question - the answer to my previous question was "yes", then? Do you want me to repeat the question?---Repeat the question please.
PN2107
Your involvement in the working party process in August 2003 wasn't your last time, was not your last time in terms of your involvement in negotiations about the change in roster?---No, no, obviously not.
**** PETER JARROD HOARE XXN MR WOOD
PN2108
Now, do you know, and if you don't know tell me, that whilst your working party process was going on, there were a number of negotiations or discussions between Mr Len Cooper of the union and Mr Peter Malden and others about the roster?---Well, I assume yes they were - I assume they were talking, having their own discussions, as well.
PN2109
And do you know in about September that is after your working party process came to an end, those discussions were elevated to a higher level to Mr Len Cooper's immediate report, shall we say, and to Mr Malden's immediate report?---Well I was involved in one of those discussions with - - -
PN2110
Yes, you were involved in the third of those discussions, do you know?---Unfortunately, my diary is - I have lost my diary from last year, and that is why I have had trouble putting things in chronological order.
PN2111
Okay?---But I did go to a meeting at 242 where there was a hook-up with Mike Lawry and Peter Malden, here and - - -
PN2112
I will take you to that meeting. Can the witness be shown Mr Malden's statement, please, plus the exhibits. Can you have a look at paragraph 70 of Mr Malden's statement, please, Mr Hoare. You will see there is a reference to a meeting on 12 September 2003, between Michael Lawry, John Wood, Tony Harold, Noel Bretag and Len Cooper, at which it was agreed a further meeting should be set up. I don't understand you were present at that meeting; do you recall?---No.
PN2113
Then you look at the second of these types of meetings referred to at paragraph 71. On 17 September 2003, Mr Malden attended a meeting with Michael Lawry, Tony Harold, Beba Brunt, Noel Bretag, Len Cooper and Kevin Welbourn. I don't understand you were present at that meeting?---No.
PN2114
And that was a - I won't ask you any questions about that. And then if you go to paragraph 84. I think this is the meeting you can recall - - -?---Yes.
**** PETER JARROD HOARE XXN MR WOOD
PN2115
- - - at 242 Exhibition Street. That is a meeting involving Mr Mike Lawry, Beba Brunt, Noel Bretag, Len Cooper, yourself and Peter Malden?---Yes, correct.
PN2116
And this was, shall we say, the last meeting before the matter got accelerated to or escalated to the Industrial Relations Commission. Do you agree with that? If you don't know just tell me you don't know?---Yes, I wouldn't - I can't be sure, but I suspect that is correct.
PN2117
And it is fair to say that the upshot of this meeting was to ascertain - well, it is fair to say at this stage the parties represented by you and Mr Len Cooper were committed to a 12 hour roster, whereas Telstra was pushing for an eight hour 10 minute roster. Do you agree with that?---I wouldn't say we were committed to a 12 hour roster, but we - because I had the - carried back the feedback from 70 per cent of the staff, that if we couldn't win the 12s, if we couldn't keep the 12s and if we had to have a settlement, as in a composite or - it would have to be - they would want it put upon us by an independent person rather than just accept a compromise like, say, the 9 hours which we could have settled on that day, but if we were going to be forced to a situation where we had to give up the 12s and have some other arrangement that should be - well, judged by an independent party.
PN2118
I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think - no I won't make comment about your answer, Mr Hoare. It is true that you were pushing for a 12 hour shift and you refused to compromise that at that meeting on a 12 hour shift. I am not making any criticism of your position to you at this stage, I just want your evidence on that point?---The only compromisation that was made was an offer of nine hours from management.
PN2119
I understand that, and this was a compromise offer put by Mr Malden, wasn't it?---Yes.
PN2120
You wanted 12 hours, didn't you?---We wanted the - we didn't see anything wrong. Yes, we wanted the status quo, ideally.
**** PETER JARROD HOARE XXN MR WOOD
PN2121
And you refused to accept the compromise of the nine hour - well, by nine hour I mean the nine hour 12 minute roster, didn't you?---Yes. And that nine hours was offered way back early in the piece.
PN2122
Sure. In fact, you gave a reason for not wanting the nine hour roster or refusing to accept the nine hour roster, didn't you, in that meeting?---Not me - - -
PN2123
- - - do you recall?--- - - - well, I may have.
PN2124
You said, towards the end of that meeting, eight and nine will not be an acceptable recommendation. There is concern that it will change again with another budget cut. That is, if we agree to nine hours now - - -?---That is correct.
PN2125
- - - what will happen next time there is a budget cut, you will want eight hours?---That is correct.
PN2126
And so you refused to move from 12 hours and accept a compromise position, didn't you, because of that fear that you expressed?---Certainly. The compromise is nine hours.
PN2127
Yes?---And I was reflecting the will of the members.
PN2128
Well you will get a chance to say some things in re-examination, Mr Hoare. And you didn't, did you, although you say that you were reflecting the will of the staff, you didn't put that compromise position back to the members, did you?---That was one - I am sure it was.
PN2129
Can you recall that or are you saying that you think you did?---I don't know whether there was an actual direction but, I mean, the feedback was well known that we could have settled for nine hours, we could have got nine hours.
**** PETER JARROD HOARE XXN MR WOOD
PN2130
After this meeting, referred to in paragraph 84, in Exhibition Street, neither you nor Mr Len Cooper, who were the two representatives of the union present or representatives of the staff present, went back to the members and said, listen, we have got an offer of nine hours that will settle this, do you want that, did you?---No, no.
PN2131
I want to go a bit further back in time, back to the working party process in August 2003, now. That process came up with some rosters, did it not?---Yes.
PN2132
Can - I don't know if you have got all the exhibits there, Mr Hoare. Can you have a look at exhibit 19 to Mr Malden's statement. Have a flick through because there are about - there are a number of pages in that statement; I think seven or eight or it might be more. I shouldn't say statement; in that exhibit?---Is it a roster?
PN2133
Yes, there should be, I think, six rosters and a summary at the end. And it is not that easy to find your way around this statement, Mr Hoare, so if you are having some difficulties we might be able to help you. Can you just have a look at those documents. There should be six rosters and then a roster comparison at the end of the exhibit. Just flick through those, Mr Hoare, and see if you can identify those as the six rosters, the working party, of which you were a member - sorry I withdraw that. Can you confirm that these are the six rosters that were produced by the working party?---Yes.
PN2134
And the seventh page is a comparison of the rosters and six dot points setting out the staff preferences?---Yes.
PN2135
And you confirm those are the staff preferences as set out or described by the working party?---That is correct.
PN2136
And you accept, don't you, that of those six staff preferences five of them, that is all of them apart from the paid meal breaks, have been reflected in the current rosters that are in operation at the GOC, at the Global Operating Centre?---No, I wouldn't, no.
**** PETER JARROD HOARE XXN MR WOOD
PN2137
You wouldn't say that. Okay. Mr Malden, when he comes to give evidence, will say that those are the principles, at least the first five or those dot points, are the principles that he put into operation or attempted to put into operation in the current rosters that are in place at the Global Operating Centre. What do you say about that?---Yes, I guess he will.
PN2138
Do you agree with that?---I certainly don't agree that they are the preferences. The preference is the status quo, well, what the 12 hours shift was.
PN2139
Perhaps I should break up my question to be a bit more precise, Mr Hoare. Do you say that the rosters that are in operation at the Global Operating Centre give effect to the first five of those staff preferences listed on page 7 of exhibit 19?---They do in relation to the eight hour roster currently being worked, but it is not what we wanted; it is not what we had before. And as far as maximum breaks go.
PN2140
I don't have any further cross-examination, Commissioner.
PN2141
PN2142
MS BORNSTEIN: Right, Mr Hoare, while you have that document in front of you, did you - I will ask you to look at the last page, under the heading of "Roster Comparisons"?---Yes.
PN2143
Did you write that document?---No, I didn't.
PN2144
Do you know who did those comparisons?---I would be sort of having a guess.
**** PETER JARROD HOARE RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2145
If you don't know don't say - - -?---No, I don't.
PN2146
You said that the dot points were not the staff preference because, as I recall, you said that the preference was the status quo. Can you recall whether during the working party meetings staff preferences were identified in terms of those dot points?---No, it was - the preference was always to try and get a good break after the night shift, like, maximum amount of breaks and time at home. That was the - and then that was sort of tried to be flowed through in creation of the rosters; and we try and get a good break from the workplace.
PN2147
You attended the meeting, to which my learned friend referred you, as a staff representative. That was the meeting, I think, in September?---Yes.
PN2148
What did you consider your responsibility as staff representative at that meeting to be?---Express the view of the staff, the majority of the members.
PN2149
How does the union communicate with its members at the Global Operations Centre?---Through a newsletter that is faxed out, and by e-mail as well.
PN2150
Thank you. Is it your responsibility to communicate by newsletter and e-mail with members?---No.
PN2151
I have no further questions.
PN2152
PN2153
MS BORNSTEIN: The next witness, Commissioner, is Damien Bale; and his statement is at tab 3. Could I just indicate, Commissioner, before he actually comes into the room, that I have given a document to my learned friend that Mr Bale will produce. My learned friend has only just obtained that document. He has indicated to me and we accept that it may be necessary to recall Mr Bale.
PN2154
THE COMMISSIONER: Please sit down, Mr Bale.
PN2155
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Bale, could you give your full name, address and occupation to the Commission, please. And when answering questions, could you direct your answers to the Commissioner?---My full name is Damien Graham James Bale. (address supplied)
PN2156
And your occupation is?---Telstra Technician.
PN2157
Mr Bale, has a witness statement been prepared on your instruction in relation to this matter?---Yes, it has.
PN2158
Do you have it with you?---Not my - - -
PN2159
Could I ask you to look at this document?---Yes, I do have it.
PN2160
The one that has just been handed to you?---Yes.
PN2161
Just look through it. Is that the witness statement that has been prepared on your instruction?---Yes, it has.
PN2162
Have you read it recently?---Yes, I have.
PN2163
Do you wish to make any amendments to that statement?---No, I don't.
PN2164
Are you able to swear, Mr Bale, that the statement is true and correct?---Yes, I am.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2165
PN2166
MS BORNSTEIN: Could I ask that the witness be shown a statement of Mr Malden.
PN2167
THE COMMISSIONER: You won't be required to read it all?---I was just thinking I will just read through it now, all right.
PN2168
MS BORNSTEIN: Yes, I don't need the witness to see the exhibits. Perhaps they might be just set to one side so they won't - - -
PN2169
THE COMMISSIONER: Sure.
PN2170
MS BORNSTEIN: There is less capacity for confusion. [2.45pm]
PN2171
Thank you, Commissioner. Could I ask you to turn to page 5 of that statement, Mr Bale, and to read to yourself paragraph 20 and 21. You see that Mr Malden states that the peak in demand occurs between approximately the hours of 7 am and 10 pm; do you agree?---No, where I work, no, I don't.
PN2172
Why not?---On the basis that after 11 o'clock at night the section I work in IFM becomes a one man show, and at 10 o'clock at night we take on extra duties from the single customer faults area, CFM, and another group inside our roster has come in, ISA, and they are not staffed after hour or after 11 o'clock, so we take on two additional roles with only one person to serve that so, in actual fact, it gets busier.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2173
Mr Bale, Mr Malden suggests that the 12 hour shifts did not balance the volume of work and staffing levels. Do you agree?---No, I don't.
PN2174
And why, why was that; why do you not agree?---Well, in IFM we had a split roster with a component of 8 hour and 12 hour so in the - we had extra staff that came on through the day and then it petered out, whereas with the changes that we have had it is - and the additional functions, it doesn't match that.
PN2175
So how many staff are under the 8 hour system rostered in your area on day shift?---Well, there is four rostered but there is also a day relief position so, depending on if they are filling in or not filling in, it would depend if there is four or five.
PN2176
And how many are rostered on afternoon shift?---Three.
PN2177
And how many on night, I think - - -?---One.
PN2178
One. Has - since about October 2003 have there been any changes in the work, the type of work done in your area?---Yes, there have. Well, the amalgamation of IFM which is dealing with other carrier faults and international service assurance which is dealing with typically single customers dialling overseas that are experiencing difficulties.
PN2179
And what effect has that had on the work; has it changed the volume or complexity?---Well, it - it has changed it because by typically working domestic transmissions, they are having the added responsibility of the international faults, that it certainly has made it more difficult.
PN2180
When you say "it has made it more difficult" what do you mean by that?---Well, we haven't been trained in the international faults. We have just been expected to do it.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2181
You suggested, in answer to an earlier question, that the 8 hour roster - I withdraw that. In your opinion, does the 8 hour roster meet the current workload during the day?---Yes. Well, it is - the staffing levels haven't really changed on the - versus what we had and what have now so - - -
PN2182
Does that include day relief?---Well, it does but I think we have a higher absenteeism rate or - it seems to be more demand to - for asking to do overtime and that sort of thing so - - -
PN2183
And what effect does that have on the areas of capacity to do the work at any time?---Well, it reduces it.
PN2184
Mr Bale, have you - I withdraw that. Mr Bale, could I ask you to look at this document. Can you identify that document?---Yes, I can.
PN2185
What is it?---That is a list of the changes that have occurred to the current 8 hour roster since December 2003.
PN2186
And did you generate this document?---No, I did not.
PN2187
Where did you get it from?---It is a part of the current CFM/IFM roster.
PN2188
Is it - to whom is that accessible?---To all the IFM staff, CFM staff, I assume anyone with access to the LAN that has got a valid login.
PN2189
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2190
MS BORNSTEIN: Yes?---Well, initially it is basically showing what a staff member was supposed to be working and what they have changed to. And then further through it it adds a bit more detail, perhaps reasons why people have been asked to do a change with - if they had been asked and rejected, or if they had been asked and accepted.
PN2191
So is it correct to say that it sets out proposed changes in the roster, some of which were accepted and some of which were not?---Yes, it does.
PN2192
And that is for the period December - 20 December - in the period 20 December '03 to 14 May - 20 May '04?---I would agree with that, yes.
PN2193
Yes.
PN2194
THE COMMISSIONER: Could you just help me with - so that I understand. If you take 2 January '04, that person moved from an afternoon shift to a night shift to cover the leave of another person. Is that right?---2 January '04.
PN2195
Yes?---Day relief to day shift.
PN2196
From an afternoon shift to a night shift to cover some leave. Is that what it shows me? Do you see the one I am looking at?---Well 2 January '04, then it has got a 5 - - -
PN2197
The first page?---Yes, I am looking at the first page, yes.
PN2198
2 January, one day from afternoon shift to night shift to cover leave. Is that right?---Sorry - yes, one day afternoon to night shift to cover leave, yes, - - -
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2199
I am sorry?---Sorry, yes.
PN2200
I meant the first one?---That is correct, yes.
PN2201
And that is the way it is read is it?---Yes.
PN2202
Yes, good, thank you.
PN2203
MS BORNSTEIN: Just for completeness, Mr Bale, what areas does that document cover, the document that you - yes, what areas does that document cover?---It is for the area of CFM and the sections IFM and ISA.
PN2204
Now, could I ask you to turn to paragraph 23 and ask you to read that to yourself. You see, Mr Bale, that at paragraph 23 Mr Malden will state that the new roster, in his opinion, needed to increase the number of business day appearances at work. Can you see that, about halfway down that paragraph:
PN2205
It also needed to increase the number of day time appearances and that this was particularly important as one of the outcomes of the restructure was that team leaders would only be working during the business day.
PN2206
You had a team leader under the 12 hour shift arrangement?---Yes, I did, yes.
PN2207
And from your observations what were the duties of that team leader?---To co-ordinate staff, look after technical issues, rostering, general day to day business really.
PN2208
If you had technical queries, who did you raise those technical queries with?---At that time with our team leader.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2209
You have a team leader under the eight hour system?---Yes, we do, yes.
PN2210
Yes, from your observations, what are the duties of the team leader?---To manage the roster.
PN2211
And should you require technical assistance and advice who do you approach?---Our current technical leader or technical adviser.
PN2212
Technology leader?---Technology leader.
PN2213
Do you obtain the technical assistance and advice from any other source?---Well, the technical leader is only on Monday to Friday, eight to five, so after hours we need to use other resources in the surveillance or - so it might be the service continuity leader or someone else in transmission or switching or - - -
PN2214
You referred to the service continuity leader, what do you understand that person's role to be?---There to monitor the activities of the surveillance hall if there is issues that are boiling over, so to speak. Take control of what is going on, make sure it is getting progressed; issues from outside areas. They have got a contact point within the surveillance hall so they can get their issues addressed and get dealt with appropriately.
PN2215
And you are familiar with the position of process control leader, I think it is?---Yes, but not - I don't have a great deal to do - - -
PN2216
Okay. Can I ask you to turn to paragraph 24 and ask you to read that to yourself. Mr Bale, how long have you worked 12 hour shifts, roughly, before October 2003?---I started full time in November 200 - 2001.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2217
And do you - were you able to concentrate properly on tasks for a 12 hour shift?---Yes, I was.
PN2218
Given your current workload, that is, with the changes that have occurred, do you believe that you could concentrate properly on those tasks for the duration of a 12 hour shift?---Under the old 12 hour shift, yes.
PN2219
Why is that, you said under the old 12 hour shift, what do you mean - what was the significance of that?---Well, we had breaks so that when we worked a night shift we had time to recover and revive. We only had to do two night shifts in a row. The way I currently feel at the moment I am struggling to - like, just getting to and from work is a big enough issue without actually trying to get any more complicated on top of it.
PN2220
Mr Malden refers to what he described as a number of instances of staff falling asleep towards the end of shifts particularly night shift. Is that something that you have observed?---Well, from time to time people might have a short nap but I would say under the current situation it is possibly going to be more prevalent. Although where I am positioned - I am at the back of the surveillance hall - I believe you have been to the viewing room. Well, if you look pretty much straight down, that is all their positions, so, where we have been relocated to it is hard to assess what is happening in other sections of the hall.
PN2221
Have you been asked to work overtime since - or been recalled since the introduction of the eight hour shifts?---Yes, I have.
PN2222
Can you indicate how often that has been?---In the last six months it is 15 times to work overtime.
PN2223
Have you accepted on every occasion?---No, I have not.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2224
Why haven't you accepted?---Just due to not getting time off but one of the times I rejected was because it would have meant that I would have had to have worked 14 days straight.
PN2225
You have a choice, do you, as to whether to accept or reject overtime or recall?---Yes, we do, yes.
PN2226
Why have you accepted overtime and recalls?---Because of the - well, if you rejected it it puts more pressure on the people at work and you are, sort of, helping your mates out really, I suppose. You don't want to leave them in the lurch as I wouldn't like to be left in the lurch myself.
PN2227
Can I ask that the witness be shown this document? Can you identify that document?---Yes, I can.
PN2228
What is it?---It is a document I created that I took the models out of the CFM roster and highlighted the days that were unaffected by shift; took the shift rotation. As for the 12 hour shift there was a five week cycle so I divided that into the year which gave 10.4 cycles per year, added up the days, multiplied out to give me 166.4 days unaffected by shift on a 12 hour roster. I also did it for a nine day fortnight and the current eight hour roster.
PN2229
When you say days unaffected, what do you mean by that? Does that include so-called recovery days?---Well, a day where I haven't been to work so you could say a night shift would affect two days. So just a clear day where I don't have to be at work.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2230
MS BORNSTEIN: Could I ask the witness be shown the witness statement of Mr Dew - Stephen Dew, which is at tab 5, Commissioner, of the respondent's material?
PN2231
THE COMMISSIONER: I understand Mr Dew is not being called?
PN2232
MR WOOD: We will call him now, Commissioner, given the way the case had developed. If it had have been - Mr Dew has got some personal issues that would have made him unavailable to give evidence for five days, but given the case is going to go on, we will call him now.
PN2233
THE COMMISSIONER: I see, all right, thank you.
PN2234
MS BORNSTEIN: Can I ask you to refer to paragraph 9 and read that to yourself. Are you paired with another staff member?---Essentially, no.
PN2235
When you say, essentially no, what does that mean, Mr Bale?---Well, ideally on the roster we are, but because there are so many changes the ISA person doesn't do night shift but I do night shift so that splits the roster. So theoretically, yes, but practically, no.
PN2236
Can I ask you to read paragraph 19 of the witness statement? In your area is there a changeover at 3 pm?---Yes, there is.
PN2237
And what is the nature of that changeover, what occurs?---The people that are on shift - on day shift are finishing for the day. Well, they finish at 3.40 and at 3 pm the new shift turns up for work to take over from the people that have been on the day shift.
PN2238
Is the changeover - is what happens on changeover any different from the changeover that occurred at the 12 hour - on the 12 hour shifts?---Yes, because it didn't happen on the 12 hour shift.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2239
There was no changeover?---At 3 pm there wasn't.
PN2240
I am sorry, I am sorry. Is the changeover that occurred - the changeovers - - -?---Yes.
PN2241
- - - that occurred on 12 hour shifts any different from the changeovers that occurred on the eight hour shifts?---Well, yes it is.
PN2242
How is that?---At 3 pm - where I work in IFM, is a very busy part of the day because it is getting close to the end of business hours, technicians are typically finishing up for the day and they are trying to either finish a job or whatever they might be doing. So the continuity of the job can be lost with a changeover at that particular time.
PN2243
Mr Bale, are you employed under an AWA or under the award?---AWA.
PN2244
And when you entered into the AWA what shift were you employed on?---A 12 hour shift.
PN2245
When does the AWA expire?---In approximately 18 months.
PN2246
Mr Bale if the Commission determine to vary the award to restore the 12 hour shifts and that was not offered by Telstra management to employees covered by AWAs, what would you do when the AWA expired?---I would be seeking to go back on to award.
PN2247
No further questions for the witness.
PN2248
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Wood?
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2249
PN2250
MR WOOD: Mr Bale, I think you identified a few things that have occurred during the last quarter of last year to your work environment. Is it true to say there have been the following changes, firstly, a change in the number of teams in the area you work, from five teams to six?---Yes, there has.
PN2251
Secondly, a change in the shift pattern from 12 hour shifts to eight hour shifts?---Yes, there has.
PN2252
And, thirdly, extra work as a result of the merging of the IFM and ISA groups?---Yes, there has.
PN2253
And on top of those three changes, is it true to say that this part of the global operating centre is a growing part of the centre?---Well, growing is not - because we have had work that has been given to another group as part of the changes, that the work has always been part of the global operations centre; so I would say it is a rearrangement of work rather than a growing or increasing work.
PN2254
All right, perhaps I can deal with it this way. Is it true to say that in recent times there has been an increased level of performance demanded from these areas of the business?---As in personally, or as in Telstra's KPIs or whoever has the responsibility?
PN2255
As in Telstra's responsibilities?---Decrease.
PN2256
Sorry?---Decrease.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XXN MR WOOD
PN2257
A decrease, that is, the time that you are required to perform tasks in has decreased?---No, I don't think I understand your question then.
[3.15pm]
PN2258
Perhaps I can deal with it this way. Your own - where did you work prior to the change in structure, which side of the business, IFM or ISA?---IFM.
PN2259
And if you are rostered on night shift - - -?---Yes.
PN2260
- - - and you are the only person on night shift then you have to do the tasks of both IFM and ISA?---Yes and CFM as well.
PN2261
And CFM, and in that regard, the work that is demanded of you is different to the work that you used to do?---In that regard, yes.
PN2262
And it is more complex because it is work that you haven't performed before?---Yes.
PN2263
And the same effect is present on afternoon shift and day shift, though to a lesser extent, because you have got other people around then you can ask questions of more readily?---To a degree, yes.
PN2264
I think you said that your AWA is due to expire in 18 months time, is that what you said?---That is correct, yes.
PN2265
So in around November 2005 you will have to make a decision as to whether or not you take up the offer of a new AWA or refer back to the award conditions?---That would be correct, yes.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XXN MR WOOD
PN2266
And you don't know what is to be offered to you now - that is, you don't know now what is to be offered to you in the future in November 2005, do you?---I don't have a crystal ball, so, no, I don't know.
PN2267
And you won't be able to determine what you will do in November 2005 until that time comes around and you can weigh up the various options that are on offer, isn't that correct?---That would be a reasonable assumption.
PN2268
You made some comments in your - you gave some evidence in your evidence-in-chief that you expected to do international faults but you hadn't been trained in that area. I understand by that you mean you haven't been trained in that area yet?---That is correct.
PN2269
Yes, you expect to be trained in that area at some time in the future?---Well, under the current training regime I would expect that working alongside my fellow colleague they would help out their fellow worker and say what is going on. As for a structured formal training, I would like to think it would happen, but I doubt it very much.
PN2270
Right, so you expect you would be informally trained through your normal working environment but you don't know whether or not you will be given structured off-the-job training?---Correct.
PN2271
You are the only person from your area to give evidence to the Commission, is that correct, Mr Bale?---Yes, I am, yes.
PN2272
And how many people are there in Mr Dew's area?---I don't know the number - - -
PN2273
Right, okay, I will approach it more narrowly. Your team leader is Mr Ian Morris, isn't he?---That is correct, yes.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE XXN MR WOOD
PN2274
And how many people are in your IFM/ISA group of which Mr Morris is the team leader?---I believe there is 15 but I would have to count the number,.
PN2275
And there are four groups of roughly that size within Mr Dew's overall area of CFM, is that right or you just don't know?---I just don't know.
PN2276
Okay. There is nothing further in cross-examination, Commissioner.
PN2277
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bornstein?
PN2278
MR WOOD: The same for the position that - - -
PN2279
THE COMMISSIONER: The bookmark you put in earlier?
PN2280
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN2281
PN2282
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Bale, assuming that when your AWA expires that the terms and conditions, save perhaps for some salary increase offered to you under the AWA, are the same as those that you currently enjoy, what would be your position in terms of renewing that AWA in the event that aware employees were to go back on to the 12 hour shift?---Well, I would have to go back on to award.
PN2283
No further questions.
**** DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2284
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Bale, thank you for your evidence, you are free to go?---Leave all the evidence here?
PN2285
PN2286
MS BORNSTEIN: Could I call Daryl Hurst. His statement is at tab 11, Commissioner.
PN2287
PN2288
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Hurst, could you give your full, name, address and occupation to the Commission please?---Daryl Hurst (address supplied) and I am a technologist with Telstra.
PN2289
Mr Hurst, you actually don't need to speak into the microphone. You will probably find it easier to address your answers to the Commission and if you just tilt your chair a bit, that will help?---Right.
PN2290
THE COMMISSIONER: Just relax, we will pick you up and if we don't I will get a signal that says we are missing you?---Okay, thank you.
PN2291
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Hurst, has a witness statement been prepared on your instructions in relation to this matter?---Yes.
PN2292
Do you have a copy with you?---No.
PN2293
Could I ask that the witness be shown this document?
PN2294
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2295
MS BORNSTEIN: Mr Hurst, could you look at that document please? Is that the witness statement that was prepared on your instruction?---Yes.
PN2296
Mr Hurst, have you read it recently?---This morning.
PN2297
Do you wish to make any amendments to your witness statement?---No.
PN2298
Are you able to swear that it is true and correct?---Yes, it is true and correct.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2299
PN2300
MS BORNSTEIN: Could I ask the witness be shown the witness statement of Mr Malden please? Can I ask you to turn to page 5 and to read paragraphs 20 and 21 to yourself?---Yes.
PN2301
You will see that Mr Malden states that the peak in demand occurs between approximately the hours of 7 am and 10 pm. Do you agree that that is the case in your area?---He has picked the main thing but we are busy almost 24 hours a day, most times. He has missed Saturday, to start off with, which is extremely busy.
PN2302
And Mr Malden states in summary that under the 12 hours shifts that staffing did not match workload. Under the 12 hour shift arrangement, in your opinion, did staffing match workload?---In the 12 hour shifts, yes, there was staffing all the time for the peak periods.
PN2303
Has the work in your area changed since about the time of the introduction of the eight hour shifts?---It has changed in the fact that now we do alarm monitoring as well as fixing faults which we only ever did. So in that respect it is still our work but we haven't done it for a few years.
PN2304
And what affect has that had on the nature of your work?---It is becoming harder to manager the faults, basically, because you can't fix faults and monitor the alarm system at the same time and keep up the stats of reporting faults within 15 minutes. It is just impossible to do, I find, because we could be talking to somebody for an hour on the phone - a tech trying to fix faults and we just can't monitor.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2305
Given that organisational change, in your observation, is the staff rostered on day shift sufficient to meet workload on day shift?---At the present - it hasn't been for a long time, no.
PN2306
And is the staff rostered on afternoon shift sufficient to meet the workload?---Sometimes it is, our workload varies depending on the faults that come in but we are normally fairly busy on afternoon shift and at times it becomes overworked.
PN2307
And in your opinion is the staff rostered on night shift under the eight hour shift arrangement adequate to meet workload demands?---Again, sometimes it is okay, but one night this week, Tuesday night, there was insufficient staff for us to work in our area.
PN2308
THE COMMISSIONER: What happened then, you didn't all go home?---I beg your pardon?
PN2309
You didn't all go home, what happened?---What do you - - -
PN2310
If there was insufficient staff?---Well, we were just busy all night long.
PN2311
I see?---Yes, just - we had a major cable restoration in South Australia and it just caused - - -
PN2312
Mayhem?---Yes, a lot of questions and answers and faults. And two people just weren't enough to handle it.
PN2313
I see?---And watch the rest of the - half Australia, which we monitor - - -
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2314
I see?--- - - - at that stage.
PN2315
Thank you.
PN2316
MS BORNSTEIN: In your area there is there a day relief shift?---Yes.
PN2317
Have you been rostered on day relief?---I have rostered - been rostered - well, it is in the roster, yes and I have been rostered on for it, yes.
PN2318
When you have been rostered to work day relief have you always worked day relief?---I don't believe I have worked a complete five day shift on the roster. The first one I worked a couple of night shifts or afternoon shifts at the end of the week. One was a full afternoon shift and I have been rostered off on the other two - I have been on holidays on the other two.
PN2319
Are you obliged to accept roster changes?---I believe so, yes, I assume it is part of the process you are expected to do.
PN2320
Have you ever been told that you have a choice as to whether to accept them or not accept them?---Yes, I believe so, yes.
PN2321
And why have you accepted roster changes?---Well, the afternoon shift suits my purpose to come to work instead of in the morning, getting up at 4.40 to come, so an afternoon shift is much better for me. Another - a couple of other ones - I have done a night shift you get a couple of days off.
PN2322
Can I ask you to look at and read to yourself paragraph 23 of Mr Malden's written statement?---Okay.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2323
You will see that Mr Malden indicates that it was important to increase the number of day time or business appearances at work for accountability reasons. Can I ask you to, under the 12 hour shift arrangement, did you have a team leader?---Yes.
PN2324
And from your observations what were the duties of the team leader?---He would supervise the workload, the staffing, organise leave and do the - any team briefs what come around.
PN2325
And did you ever require technical assistance or support?---Yes, on the odd times, yes.
PN2326
And from where did you obtain that assistance and support?---Well, first hand, would be from fellow workers I work with and then perhaps the team leader if I knew he was in our business and then from our cell at the back of house.
PN2327
And what shift did back of house work?---I think they work seven to seven now on eight hour days.
PN2328
And then?---Recall after that if we really needed to get one of them on the phone.
PN2329
Under the present system, from your observations, what are the duties of your team leader?---Well, it appears to be running the staff. Doing staffing, rosters, holidays, that type of administration.
PN2330
Is the performance of your work directly supervised?---I don't believe it is at the moment, no.
PN2331
And should you require technical assistance and advice under the current shift system from where do you obtain that assistance and advice?---Basically, from saying before, I would ask the bloke I work with. If we totally get stuck there we would get the back of house.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2332
Are you familiar with the positions of process controller and service continuity leader?---Yes.
PN2333
And from your observations, what are their duties?---The process controller seems to be watching the queue of any real time faults that need to be updated as we go through the day or night and he just keeps a track that the process is - something is getting done about the fault all the time and we don't forget about as we get busy. And the other one is for any major incidents - they manage any major incidents.
PN2334
And what contact do you have with those two people. Other than them coming down and asking us what is happening with any fault at a particular time that would be about it.
PN2335
And on which shifts are they rostered?---All shifts.
PN2336
Can I ask you whether you, from time to time, receive any work instructions?---Yes, they come through every now and then.
PN2337
And how do they come through? How do you receive them?---I believe they come on e-mail at the moment.
PN2338
And under the 12 hour shift system did you receive new work instructions?---Yes, they would come through by e-mail and we would have a discussions, sometimes with the team leader, who would take us aside and go through it.
PN2339
And do you receive from time to time changes to existing processes?---Yes, yes.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2340
And how do you receive that information?---That would be by e-mail.
PN2341
And under the 12 hour shift system how did you receive that information?---By the same, e-mail and/or the team leader would bring it to our attention.
PN2342
Since October 2003 have you received any training?---No, no official training.
PN2343
And in the course of your work do you have contact with internal groups and external groups?---Mainly internal groups, we would certainly deal with.
PN2344
And when does that occur?---If we are talking about internal groups in the hall at any one time, that could be any time of the day, but the back of house would be only - our transmission group in the back of house for advice.
PN2345
And do you have contact with customers or clients of the business?---Not really, no, not that I would class as - - -
PN2346
Can I ask you to read to yourself paragraph 24 of Mr Malden's witness statement?---Okay.
PN2347
How long prior to October 2003 did you work 12 hour shifts?---I beg your pardon?
PN2348
How long before October 2003 had you worked 12 hour shifts, approximately?---Six to seven years.
PN2349
And did you in that period have any difficulty in concentrating properly on the tasks for the duration of a 12 hour shift?---Personally, I haven't had any trouble, no.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2350
You have said that the work that you do has changed. In your opinion, could you concentrate properly on the tasks you now do for a 12 hour shift?---Yes, it is still the same work, the stuff on - I have got the ability to work on. There is nothing I can't do.
PN2351
Mr Malden refers at paragraph 24 to a number of incidences of staff falling asleep towards the end of shifts, particularly night shift, is that something that you have observed?---I have never seen anybody fall asleep for hours at a time. A nap - powernaps I have seen either in the lunch room or perhaps at a desk but never seen anybody going through, even probably, half an hour.
PN2352
Have you see that on the eight hour shifts?---I believe it is exactly the same, there is no difference.
PN2353
Mr Malden refers to the introduction of minimum standards that the GOC must meet and he refers to a target for production of a diagnosis and report of 15 minutes from the event happening. Are you familiar with those standards?---Well, certainly with that one, yes.
PN2354
Is that a new standard?---I don't believe so, it is - well, new to us in the fact that we have never had to monitor the alarms to put the fault in so I am not sure what it was and how long it has been there, but certainly, I have known for a few months or year, perhaps, or whatever time it has been there.
PN2355
And in your opinion do those standards have any effect on the level of concentration required to perform the work?---Not particularly, I mean, we are just busy all the time. The concentration is there all the time. If it is 15 minutes or half an hour, we are still busy, we don't, sort of, just slacken it off just because of 15 minutes or something.
PN2356
Could I ask that the witness be shown the statement of Nathan Vimalanathan? Can I ask you to read paragraph 4 of Mr Vimalanathan's statement and read that to yourself?---Okay.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2357
Have you observed that during a 12 hour night shift that some employees would take a two to three hour break?---Certainly not, certainly not in our area, it has not happened.
PN2358
Mr Vimalanathan also refers to instances of employees on night shift going off to watch television for a while. Under the 12 hour shift arrangement did you have breaks on night shift?---Yes, we were entitled to two half hour breaks.
PN2359
And what would you do during those breaks?---Yes, go out to the lunch room and have something to eat and watch telly.
PN2360
Could I ask you to read paragraph 5 to yourself?---Yes.
PN2361
Mr Vimalanathan seems to be suggesting that he observed staff members sleeping for 15 to 20 minutes at a time at their monitors. Is that something that you have ever observed?---Yes, I have certainly seen powernaps at the monitors, yes.
PN2362
What do you describe a powernap as?---Up to five minutes, perhaps, if that.
PN2363
Have you observed people sleeping for 15 to 20 minutes?---No, certainly not on our shift.
PN2364
Could I ask you to read paragraph 9 of the statement to yourself?---Yes.
PN2365
Mr Vimalanathan acknowledges staff shortages over the Christmas and New Year period. Do you agree that the staff shortages occurred over the Christmas and New Year period?---I believe there was staff shortages, yes.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2366
From your observations have there been staff shortages at any other time since then?---Yes, I believe so. I don't know if you class - what they say are staff shortages and what we are, is different, but I think it has been short staffed.
[3.45pm]
PN2367
Could I ask you to turn to page 5 of the statement? Could you read paragraph 26 to yourself?---Yes, yes.
PN2368
Did that occur?---It did after a few weeks, yes.
PN2369
Can I ask you to read paragraph 27 to yourself?---Yes.
PN2370
Did you consider applying for a position based in Ballarat?---No, not really. It is still 100 kilometres from my house and it was on day shift as well, so there is no benefit in applying for that.
PN2371
Could I ask you to read paragraph 28 to yourself?---Yes.
PN2372
He says that Mr Cozer told you you could start earlier at 7 am and you have done so since then. When - is that correct?---Yes, I asked him. He didn't tell me but I asked him because of travelling. I could get there at 7, but 8 o'clock is a real problem.
PN2373
And on what shifts do you start at 7 am?---On the day shifts and the DR shifts are the ones what he is talking about in that paragraph, the relief shifts.
PN2374
The DR is day relief?---Day relief which would normally start at 8.
**** DARYL HURST XN MS BORNSTEIN
PN2375
Are you employed under an AWA or under the award?---An AWA.
PN2376
When you entered into that AWA what shift were you employed on?---Yes, 12 hour shifts.
PN2377
When is your AWA due to expire?---In three years it will be up in June/July this year.
PN2378
If the Commission decided to vary the award with effect that employees on the award reverted to a 12 hour shift and Telstra did not offer that to AWA covered employees, what would be your approach when your AWA expires?---I would go back onto the award wage, yes.
PN2379
No further questions, thank you.
PN2380
PN2381
MR WOOD: Thank you, Commissioner. As I understand things, Mr Hurst, you are one of a number of employees from the transmission area within the global operating centre coming to give evidence before the Commission. Is that correct?---I believe so.
PN2382
And I understand you work in the group in which Mr Lee McAuliffe is the acting team leader, is that correct?---Yes.
PN2383
And it is true that Mr Fairbrother from whom we have heard evidence and Mr Deane from whom we have heard evidence yesterday, are also in that group?---Yes, that would be right.
**** DARYL HURST XXN MR WOOD
PN2384
Or team? And Mr Troy Walsh whose partner, Ms Amanda Raymond that came to give evidence is also in that group?---Yes.
PN2385
And we heard some evidence from someone - I beg your pardon, from Mr Geoffrey Donald who is in the switching part of the switching and wireless team before lunch today. I asked him some questions about the make up of the switching group within the switching and wireless team and he accepted the proposition that like the transmission area, the switching team within the switching and wireless group was made up of people who had been around Telstra for a longer period than other people in the global operating centre and had been used to working on the older technologies. Do you agree that that statement applies to your area as well?---I am not sure about the staffing the older people, but there is certainly a number of old people and younger people - new younger people in it, so I am not sure about the staffing numbers.
PN2386
Perhaps old is the wrong way of saying it, Mr Hurst, people who have been with Telstra for a number of years?---Yes, I suppose you are probably right.
PN2387
I mean old to Telstra. I beg your pardon?---I suppose you are right - I - yes, I will go along with - I don't know the make up of the other teams, that is - you know, other groups in the - I am not sure.
PN2388
I don't want to put words in your mouth, do you agree that the assessment made by Mr Donald is correct in relation to the transmission area as well or you just don't know?---No, I won't say I know.
PN2389
You just don't know?---I don't know the make up of their team and I don't know the make up of ours if they are the same, but -
PN2390
You, I think said in your evidence-in-chief, Mr Hurst that you used to be in the network fault management side of the business before the restructure to create that part of the transmission area in which you work, is that correct?---That is right.
**** DARYL HURST XXN MR WOOD
PN2391
And so you therefore have had to take on some alarm monitoring roles?---That is right.
PN2392
So that is one of the changes that has occurred since October/November 2003 to you and your area, is that correct?---Yes.
PN2393
Another change has been the movement from five to six teams?---Yes.
PN2394
And a third change has been the movement from 12 hour shifts to eight hour shifts, is that correct?---Yes.
PN2395
Have there also been changes in the last few months in terms of additional technologies that your team has to work with in terms of the work you do within the transmission section?---I don't believe we have taken any extra work on unless you refresh my - - -
PN2396
Perhaps I can do it this way. You gave some evidence in your evidence-in-chief that you have done no additional official training since October 2003. What sort of unofficial training have you done?---I would do me own training as in if something comes up that I am not quite across, I will do me own bit of investigation into it to find out a bit more about it.
PN2397
So, for example, if you are required to do some alarm monitoring which you didn't do in network fault management and you don't know how to do it, you might do some investigation yourself using the internet or you might speak to one of your fellow co-workers?---Yes, I have certainly done that, yes.
PN2398
And is that what you mean by unofficial training?---Yes, that would be unofficial training to work out how to create dockets from alarms.
**** DARYL HURST XXN MR WOOD
PN2399
You gave some evidence about people taking power naps of up to five minutes at their desk. Do you recall that evidence?---Yes.
PN2400
You also in answer to a question from the Commission talked about what happened, I think you said last Tuesday when there was a major cable restoration?---Yes.
PN2401
And do you recall that you said two people were not enough?---Yes.
PN2402
I presume that neither of you took power naps that day when you were busy?---I would assume so, yes. No we didn't, no power naps.
PN2403
Yes, but is the problem that causes the power naps or it did so on the 12 hour shifts the fact that people weren't busy enough at that time?---No, I think it becomes at 4 and 5 am in the morning, your body tells you that you need to shut your eyes for a few minutes and I don't think if it is 12 or eight hour shifts it makes any difference.
PN2404
You were asked some questions about you - your actual rosters that you worked and I think you said that you accepted some changes from day relief to afternoon shift and to night shift?---Yes.
PN2405
And you said that the reason for changing to afternoon shift was that it suits you better?---Yes.
PN2406
And I think you said the reason for accepting a change to night shift was to get a couple of days off?---Yes, it made a difference on - see I get up - the difference is I get up at 4.40 am to get down here to a day - to a day work and that knocks me around something shocking. I mean I can't get to bed - I normally don't get to sleep until after 11 o'clock so getting up at 4.40 doesn't give you much sleep so any change like that is a big advantage.
**** DARYL HURST XXN MR WOOD
PN2407
It is true to say, isn't it, that you also get paid extra for doing afternoon shift and night shift rather than day relief?---That - that would be right, yes.
PN2408
And the amount that you might get paid might be as little as 15 per cent or it might be as much as 200 per cent depending upon how much notice you are given and when the day shift - when the afternoon or night shift happens to be worked that is - - -?---Yes, yes, that would be right.
PN2409
Do you accept that Mr Vimalanathan has made some changes to your work area which have meant that there are more staff in both the team, which Mr McAuliffe is the team leader and the team of which Mr Karl Rashwan is the team leader?---I beg your pardon - say again?
PN2410
Perhaps I will make it a little bit shorter. Do you accept that there has been some additional staff introduced to the transmission area over the last six months, that is since the changes in October and November 2003?---There has been changed staffing. I don't know about you would call it increase in staffing, but there is certainly different staff in there than there was six months ago.
PN2411
Are you saying you can't - you don't know whether I am right or wrong or are you saying I am wrong?---Well - - -
PN2412
I don't expect you to be an expert on this if you are not?---Well we got - we lost a couple of blokes who have gone onto day shifts on new positions and we have taken one new bloke from up the country a couple - a month ago.
PN2413
And did - - -?---And - - -
PN2414
Do you know - - -?--- - - - a couple - sorry.
**** DARYL HURST XXN MR WOOD
PN2415
Sorry?---And a couple of young blokes who seem to monitor the planned events and our contract staff who managed planned events. Now I would say we lost some and gained some.
PN2416
And you don't know whether or not there is a net gain or a net loss?---No.
PN2417
No?---Well, I would say net loss overall.
PN2418
Are you just saying that or do you know that?---No, well - no, well some time ago there would have been up to four of us doing faults and up to three at least doing LR monitoring which to me is - what is that seven and now there is five of us at night shift - on the shift so I would say there is a loss of two.
PN2419
I see, in that calculation you are not counting certain people, are you? You are not counting the team leader, you are not counting the technology leader?---No, no, I am talking about the coal face workers.
PN2420
Yes, you are talking about the - the coal face you are talking about the technology leader and the team leader sit with you at the coal face, do they not?---No, I am just talking about myself and the blokes who do the work I do.
PN2421
They do the shift work?---Who do the shift work.
PN2422
And you are not including the team leaders and the technology leaders who sit next to you, are you?---Well they are not sitting next to us. Well Mr technology leaders are elsewhere. I am talking about five us who do the faults and - - -
PN2423
What about - just deal with the team leader then. The team leader sits with you?---Well I suppose, yes.
**** DARYL HURST XXN MR WOOD
PN2424
You haven't included that person?---No, I haven't included that person.
PN2425
And the technology leader that you are asking questions about who is able to give you support, you haven't included that person?---No.
PN2426
Okay. In relation to your AWA, I think you said that it is up - it is for - it is due to expire in June or July 2004, is that correct?---I believe so, yes, yes.
PN2427
Depending - you won't know what decision you might make until you get a new AWA with whatever offer is made to you in that, do you?---No, I haven't made a decision yet, but I have been thinking of going back to the award wage. A couple of reasons. Do you need to know them?
PN2428
I am happy to - - - ?---Well basically - - -
PN2429
I am happy to hear them?---Well basically I went over to this to get a Telstra lease car because of the travel, the annualised waging so you get a consistent wage every fortnight and salary sacrifice super. Now salary sacrificing the super is being offered to award staff and the annualised waging is being changed to go back to the old way where you get different amounts of pay each week. So those two things have come off and so the Telstra lease car is the only benefit that I am seeing at the moment.
PN2430
You haven't been given a new offer for an AWA?---No.
PN2431
And it depends on what the terms of that offer are - - -?---Well - - -
PN2432
- - - as to whether or not you will pick it up or go back to the award, does it not?---Well the - yes, well it will, but the terms will be the same as award staff. I mean they are not - they don't give you anything extra than the bloke sitting next to me.
**** DARYL HURST XXN MR WOOD
PN2433
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if it is not, we will match it?---It is not worth mentioning, no.
PN2434
No, no, no, I didn't say that. I said if it is not, we will match it?---Okay, yes, yes.
PN2435
MR WOOD: I understand that you have been - that you agree that you have been offered certain - I will withdraw that. I agree that you were given the opportunity to change your roster group so that you could car pool?---Yes.
PN2436
And you took that up?---Yes.
PN2437
And you car pool now?---Yes, that is true.
PN2438
And you were given the opportunity to work in Ballarat but you have turned that down?---No, I - I would forget about the Ballarat bit. I mean there was - that was - - -
PN2439
I think you did forget about it?---I mean there was nothing - - -
PN2440
I am just - - -?---There was - - -
PN2441
I am just asking you whether you were offered it, Mr Hurst?---Well a job wasn't offered. I was sent an e-mail to say there is jobs in Ballarat.
PN2442
And you didn't take any of them up?---Well there was nothing to take up. I fail to see the benefit.
**** DARYL HURST XXN MR WOOD
PN2443
Well you will have the chance to say all these things in re-examination.
PN2444
THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right, Mr Hurst, he is not tricky, he is just inquisitive?---Yes, well it is 100 kilometres from home.
PN2445
MR WOOD: And you were given the opportunity to take up a 7 am start?---Yes.
PN2446
And you have taken that up?---Yes, yes.
PN2447
Do you accept that having people start at 7 am as you do and having other people start at 8 am at day shift means that there is an ability to have people starting at different times so that the number of people available at different times - sorry, so there is a granularity or a spreading of the amount of people available at certain times during the day?---Yes.
PN2448
And that assists, doesn't it, in making sure that there is an even spread of work for everyone who works through the shifts?---Yes, I will go along with that.
PN2449
There is nothing further in cross-examination, Commissioner.
PN2450
PN2451
THE COMMISSIONER: Are we are back next Thursday, are we. The 20th? All right, well we will adjourn until 10 o'clock on the 20th.
ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 20 MAY 2004 [4.05pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #CEPU14 DRAFT ORDER PN1672
MICHAEL INGLIS, ON FORMER OATH PN1677
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN1677
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BORNSTEIN PN1719
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1725
DAVID EDWARD DOWNS, SWORN PN1726
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BORNSTEIN PN1726
EXHIBIT #CEPU15 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR D.E. DOWNS PN1750
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN1846
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BORNSTEIN PN1935
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1938
GEOFFREY STUART DONALD, SWORN PN1949
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BORNSTEIN PN1949
EXHIBIT #CEPU16 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GEOFFREY STUART DONALD PN1957
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN2010
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2075
PETER JARROD HOARE, SWORN PN2081
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BORNSTEIN PN2081
EXHIBIT #CEPU17 WITNESS STATEMENT OF PETER JARROD HOARE PN2089
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN2091
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BORNSTEIN PN2142
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2153
DAMIEN GRAHAM BALE, SWORN PN2154
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BORNSTEIN PN2154
EXHIBIT #CEPU18 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DAMIEN BALE PN2166
EXHIBIT #CEPU19 LIST OF CHANGES TO CURRENT 8 HOUR ROSTER SINCE DECEMBER 2003 PN2190
EXHIBIT #CEPU20 DOCUMENT CREATED BY MR BALE RE ROSTER PN2230
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN2250
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BORNSTEIN PN2282
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2286
DARYL HURST, SWORN PN2288
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BORNSTEIN PN2288
EXHIBIT #CEPU21 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DARYL HURST PN2300
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN2381
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2451
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