|
|
Home
| Databases
| WorldLII
| Search
| Feedback
Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 1, 17-21 University Ave., CANBERRA ACT 2601
GPO Box 476 Canberra 2601
Tel: (02)6249 7322 Fax: (02)6257 6099
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 3349
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH
COMMISSIONER DEEGAN
C2003/4271
C2002/5237
CHILDREN'S SERVICES (VICTORIA)
AWARD 1998
CHILD CARE INDUSTRY (AUSTRALIAN
CAPITAL TERRITORY) AWARD 1998
Applications under section 113 of the
Act by Australian Liquor, Hospitality
and Miscellaneous Workers Union to vary
the above awards
CANBERRA
9.02 AM, THURSDAY, 18 DECEMBER 2003
Continued from 4.12.03 in Melbourne
PN118
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any changes in the appearances? No. Yes, Ms Bellino.
PN119
MS BELLINO: This is an application by the LHMU to vary the Child Care Industry (Australian Capital Territory) Award 1998 to insert a new classification structure which includes properly fixed minimum rates of pay. The LHMU has filed an extensive outline of submissions which we rely on. The union also seeks to amend the original application in line with the draft sent to the Commission and the respondent employers last Tuesday, 9 December.
PN120
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any objection to the application to amend?
PN121
MR MORPHETT: No objection.
PN122
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you.
PN123
MS BELLINO: Stage 1 of the union application is specifically in relation to whether the rates of pay and the classification structure of the award are properly fixed minimum rates of pay. The LHMU application is consistent with section 88B of the Workplace Relations Act 1996, specifically sections 88B(2) and 88B(3). The application is also supported by principle 6, work value changes of the Commission's current statement of principles.
PN124
The union will be calling 19 witnesses to show that a new classification structure and wage structure for child care workers in the ACT is justified and has merit. The witness evidence will show that there has been significant changes to the job and the training from when the classification structure was inserted into the award in 1990.
PN125
Firstly we will be calling Leslie Ralph to give evidence as the current Head of Department, Child Studies, Canberra Institute of Technology. The evidence of Ms Ralph will outline the current courses offered by the CIT, the changes to these courses over the last 12 years and the problems in the child care industry with respect to the recruitment and retention of qualified staff.
PN126
The union will also tender the signed affidavits of Mary Galliano, Louise Hynes, Molly Rhodin, Melissa Sharrock and Toni Stedford. Each of these five witnesses is currently employed in Children's Services in the ACT. Each witness gives evidence in relation to their workplace and their level of skills, qualifications and job requirements they are expected to fulfil. These witnesses have not been required for cross-examination by the respondents. I tender and seek to have marked the affidavit of Mary Galliano, Louise Hynes, Molly Rhodin, Melissa Sharrock and Toni Stedford.
PN127
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I mark the affidavit of Mary Galliano as exhibit UACT1.
PN128
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: The affidavit of Louise Hynes as exhibit UACT2.
PN129
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: The affidavit of Melissa Sharrock as exhibit UACT3.
PN130
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: The affidavit of Molly Rhodin as exhibit UACT4.
PN131
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: And the affidavit of Toni Stedford as exhibit UACT5.
PN132
MS BELLINO: Your Honours, Commissioner, I should just point out one or two small changes to each of those affidavits as they are now, compared to when they were witness statement forms. The changes have only been in relation to the time distance basically.
PN133
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I don't think it's - - -
PN134
MS BELLINO: In relation to Toni Stedford's affidavit, she has changed her position in the Centre.
PN135
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: That's fine. We won't be referring to the documents that have already been filed. These are the ones we'll be relying on and they've been sworn as affidavits.
PN136
MS BELLINO: Thank you.
PN137
MR MORPHETT: Excuse me a minute. May it please the Commission, I'm just wondering if we could actually know the changes before we - - -
PN138
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Certainly.
PN139
MR MORPHETT: - - - since we haven't seen these - - -
PN140
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I see, I wasn't aware that you hadn't seen those.
PN141
MS BELLINO: In relation to Toni Stedford's affidavit, she has changed her position in the centre from when she first issued the witness statement, that's paragraph 10. Melissa Sharrock's "Sharrock" originally had Sharrocks, she's changed the spelling of her name and has now completed certificate III and is now studying the diploma. That's in paragraph 3. And Molly Rhodin has changed her address and the title of the position she holds in the centre, which is paragraph 1. That's the only changes.
PN142
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you.
PN143
MS BELLINO: The union will then be calling Judy Elton, Raeline George, Erin Johnston, Stephanie Henderson, Reesha Stefek, Joanne Davies, Jane Marshall, Michelle Fernandez, Nina Bukvic, Diedre Hobson and Barbara Deacon to give evidence to the Commission. Each of these 11 witnesses is currently employed in Children's Services in the ACT. Their evidence will show the requirements of their job, their level of training, qualifications and skill. The witnesses, where appropriate, will provide detailed evidence of the changes to this industry since they were first employed.
PN144
The union will then be calling Lynda Stubbs to give evidence. Ms Stubbs is currently employed as an organiser with the LHMU and has had extensive experience in the children's services industry from her commencement in 1977 as a family day carer. Ms Stubbs has held the position as a Coordinator in Family Day Care, assistant director in a centre and a director. Ms Stubbs' evidence, based on significant consultation and feedback with union members will show the need to change the classification structure and wage rates for child care professionals including the name of the award, the classification titles and the amended application and some allowances.
PN145
The evidence of Ms Stubbs will also show that the amended application is as a result of extensive consultation with the industry to ensure that those employed under the ACT Child Care Award were satisfied that the award, once varied, would be user friendly and practical. The evidence of Ms Stubbs will also show that an ACT Government report concluded in 2002 supports the claims made by the union and workers in that industry, in that training and experience needs to be better reflected in the award, that a recognised career structure should be developed and that qualified and unqualified staff need better working condition and wages to remain in the sector.
PN146
The evidence of Ms Stubbs will also show that there have been significant changes to this industry over the last 12 years including the recent research about brain development in the early years, changes to the qualification and the changes needed to the classification structure to break it into the three streams as proposed by the union's amended application.
PN147
The final LHMU witness will be Beth Brunskill who is the Executive Officer of Training for Health and Community Services Incorporated. The evidence of Ms Brunskill will show the requirements for the completion of the AQF qualifications in children's services, how the training is delivered and the work books and units required for completion of this training.
PN148
Ms Brunskill's evidence will also show the changes to the Australian training system from the Australian Standards framework to the current Australian qualifications framework and how the nationally recognised qualifications in AQF and their associated units of competency must align to one of the eight AQF levels.
PN149
The LHMU understand that the respondent's oppose the application by the union for a number of reasons which have been outlined in the respondent's submissions. The LHMU relies primarily on our outline of submission in response filed on Tuesday, 9 December 2003 which deals in detail with the respondent's positions. The union will be relying on a number of authorities to support our contention that the award classification structure must be reviewed. The list of those authorities is in the LHMU submission in response and I tender a copy of the authorities on which we seek to rely upon.
PN150
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Ms Bellino, you don't need to take us to any of those at this stage because these two days are primarily focusing on the evidence and providing an opportunity to cross-examine the witnesses. At the end of those two days or the end of tomorrow's proceedings, we'll consider the further directions so that an opportunity can be provided to put submissions, relating the evidence to the client and it's probably at that part of the proceedings that it will probably be more appropriate to deal with the authorities.
PN151
MS BELLINO: That's fine, your Honour. I have provided them to the respondents today so I wasn't - - -
PN152
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: No, I wasn't objecting to you handing them, that's fine. I just didn't want you to start reading them, that's all.
PN153
MS BELLINO: No, I certainly wasn't going to today.
PN154
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I should also make the general observation that the usual practice is, in relation to witnesses, where statements have been filed those statements will stand as the evidence-in-chief of the witness. So generally speaking you won't be permitted to ask the witness, simply because it will be repetitive, to go through their statement or questions of that nature in the examination-in-chief.
PN155
The only exception to that would be where you're asking the witness to comment on material that's been filed after their statement went in or there's been some event that's occurred since or some area where you feel it's necessary to clarify or to provide the witness with an opportunity to clarify the evidence. But generally speaking the statement will stand as the evidence-in-chief and then the purpose will be to allow the witness to be cross-examined and then re-examined. That obviously applies to you too, Mr Morphett.
PN156
MS BELLINO: Thank you. The union submits the Commission has the power to grant the union's application to vary the Child Care Industry Award (Australian Capital Territory) 1998 and insert a new classification structure under the Workplace Relations Act 1996 and the current wage fixing principles. This is the end of the union's opening submission.
PN157
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Okay, would you like to call your first witness please.
PN158
MS BELLINO: The union calls Ms Leslie Ralph.
PN159
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---My name is Leslie Ralph. My address is 4 Solander Place, Yarralumla, ACT.
PN160
What is your current place of employment?---I work with the Canberra Institute of Technology within the Child Studies Department.
PN161
And what position are you employed in?---I'm head of the Child Studies Department.
PN162
Ms Ralph, have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---I have.
PN163
Do you identify this as a copy of that statement you have prepared?---Yes, it is.
PN164
Thank you. Your Honour, I tender the statements.
PN165
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Is the statement in the same form as the one that was filed?
PN166
MS BELLINO: I was just going to ask?
PN167
Are there any corrections that you wish to make to that version of your statement?---No, there aren't.
PN168
No.
PN169
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I'll mark the statement as exhibit UACT6.
**** LESLIE RALPH XN MS BELLINO
PN170
MS BELLINO: We have no further questions for this witness.
PN171
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Ms Ralph, do you say your statement is true and correct?---I do.
PN172
Any cross-examination?
PN173
PN174
MS WILSON: Ms Ralph, I just would like to refer you to paragraph number 6 of your statement. In that paragraph you state that the diploma classes have actually increased and you've in fact offered another class. Do you agree that it would follow that perhaps the current employment conditions and the stages of child care therefore isn't as high a barrier as what the union would like to argue to prevent people who want to enter into the child car industry after all?---Okay. What we are finding, the student numbers have increased but what our learners are doing, they're using our course as a pathway to university and the preschool sector. And we find that they're not staying within the child care sector.
PN175
However, the numbers are still increasing? I mean, in fact you said - - - ?---For this semester the numbers were increasing. I do have concerns about our enrolment numbers for 2004 at this stage.
PN176
I refer you to paragraphs 11 and 12 of your statement. Basically you discuss the old Child Care Practicing certificate and the modules and in paragraph 12 you go through what the current Child Care certificate consists of. Would you agree that in fact since 1994 when it was originally a certificate of Child Care Practice it was a one year course of about 18 to 20 hours contact per week and today the certificate III is still a one year course with from about 18 to 20 contact hours per week - - -
**** LESLIE RALPH XXN MS WILSON
PN177
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Just before you answer that, I'm not clear I follow the question. In paragraph 11 there's a reference to the old TAFE Child Care Practices certificate.
PN178
MS BELLINO: That is correct.
PN179
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: And in paragraph 12 there's the reference to the certificate III.
PN180
MS BELLINO: That is correct.
PN181
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: What was the other one that you - - -
PN182
MS BELLINO: The question is, in the length of time taken to do each course, both are one year courses.
PN183
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Both the one in - - -
PN184
MS BELLINO: Both have - both the Child Care Practice and certificate III are one year courses.
PN185
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Yes.
PN186
MS BELLINO: Both have contact hours of 18 to 20 hours per week and that has not changed since 1994 until today, is that correct?---The contact hours are relatively the same. The content of delivery within those hours has changed over that time.
**** LESLIE RALPH XXN MS WILSON
PN187
But the length of time for the course is still the same?---The length of time is still the same.
PN188
And it's pretty much the same contact hours?---The contact hours are the same.
PN189
Yes, thank you. They're the only questions that we have.
PN190
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you. Anybody else? No questions. Mr Morphett.
PN191
MR MORPHETT: Sorry, Ms Ralph. You just mentioned there people are using the child care courses as a pathway to university. Why do you think that is? Do you have any understanding of that from the applications?---Yes. The feedback we've had is that these learners have a strong interest in working with children. Some of the students are nervous about, I think, their university entrance score and aren't sure that they will be able to get in to university and I think they choose to use the course to give them that support and underpinning knowledge and use it as a pathway to achieve their career outcome.
PN192
So could we say then, I put it to you, that that would be the same as saying that this is like a bridging course into the university course, is that correct?---I wouldn't express it that way. I think these students have an understanding that they are looking at a diploma qualification which is part of the Bachelors of Early Childhood at UC.
PN193
And when you say that the contact - - - ?---Sorry, could I ask, there's just white noise in the background and I'm having a hard time hearing, I'm sorry.
**** LESLIE RALPH XXN MR MORPHETT
PN194
That's all right, I can talk in a louder volume, I'm sorry. You also made reference to the contact hours being the same but the content being different. What do you mean by that?---Okay. I guess the best way to explain that is as you review your curriculum you go through a process where you consult with industry or what's known as ITAB and within CIT we also have an advisory curriculum group. And what we attempt to do is get an idea of the needs of industry, have an understanding of the job and what the job involves. So what we do is we look at the training package of curriculum and take on board what is needed for the profession and begin to meld the two. Now, I forgot your question after that long - - -
PN195
And so I put it to you that this is like an evolution in - it's an evolution of a training system, is that correct?---That's it, yes.
PN196
So it's still essentially though the same course, is that correct?---No, not in my opinion. Not the same course. And I'm not quite sure what you mean by the same course. I don't - yes - - -
PN197
Well, when I say to you that it's an evolution of the current qualification, the qualification isn't any more extensive than it was prior?---It has changed, because the job description has changed so there has been an evolution of change and I think the training has evolved to meet that change.
PN198
Well, you just mentioned there that the job description has changed, what job description has changed?---The feedback we get from industry leads us to believe that the job description is more involved in terms of responsibilities of the certificate III employee and the responsibilities of what would be the level 4 employee. And I guess two examples that spring to mind would be responsibilities around occupational health and safety and their understanding of occupational health and safety in terms of protecting themselves as workers and protecting children, understanding their rights, the idea of risk management and that's very new. That everyone needs to have their head around and that's part of the content we deliver. Mandatory reporting and all that that involves and all that the employees need to understand about that whereas many years ago that wasn't necessarily the case. We weren't mandated to report and protect children the way that we are now.
**** LESLIE RALPH XXN MR MORPHETT
PN199
But from your point of view in terms of your activities at CIT, you're not mandated to make these changes in the training courses, are you?---There is a curriculum guide, the training package is quite strict in terms of what the content is and I think you'll find those elements in the training packages.
PN200
Nothing further.
PN201
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Could I just ask a follow up question to the one that Ms Wilson asked. You said that the contact hours and course length were the same between '94 and the current position. In paragraph 12 you note, in relation to the current certificate, that students are required to have a minimum of 100 hours experience working with young children. Was there a similar requirement under the old TAFE Child Care Practices certificate?---I don't know the answer to that, I can't help you with that.
PN202
PN203
MR MALONEY: Ms Ralph, in your statement in paragraph 5, you detail at the third dot point, you talk about the certificate III as being one year full time. Are you able to tell the Commission how many hours of study that is in hours of attendance at the tertiary institution to do that one year full time?---On average it would be 20 hours per week, 18 weeks for a year. So - - -
PN204
And that's in addition to the 100 hours experience contact time?---Yes.
PN205
Okay. And - - - ?---By the 100 hours before they enter the course, is that what you mean? Is that what the question is?
PN206
When do they do the 100 hours, before they enter the course?---We do have a requirement, a special requirement that these students have contact hours before they are given a high preference to the course.
**** LESLIE RALPH XXN MR MALONEY
PN207
And whilst they're doing the study they do the 18 to 20 hours contact per week?---Sorry, say that again?
PN208
Whilst they're doing the study, do they do their 18 or 20 hours contact time per week? While they're studying?---Okay. Maybe if I just walk you through this. What they do, the students study with us 20 hours per week. Now, within that framework of study the students do have a practical component as well. And within that practical component, for the certificate III, the practical component is - I think, I'm not sure off the top of my head, it's approximately 90 to 120 hours first semester and then they do a "prac placement" is the term we give it, second semester as well. Now, on top of this, before we accept a student into the course, we do like them to have experience. That's part of our selection criteria.
PN209
So experience is important?---Yes, it is. And the reason I say that is that it gives us an idea of a student's commitment to working with children, from a training perspective.
PN210
Now, just following on from the question that Mr Morphett asked you in terms of the students moving on to other studies once they've done, for example, their certificate III, would the usual progression be that they might be a certificate III and then articulate into a diploma and perhaps then articulate from a diploma into a degree?---That's the traditional pathway that we see. Most of the - - -
PN211
In your experience where would the - the degree studies, would that be in the area of teaching, for example?---Yes, Early Childhood Education, Bachelors or Early Childhood Education would probably attract most of our students, not necessarily primary.
PN212
A typical student who may follow that path, would it be the case that they would generally, when they leave high school, perhaps not have achieved the requisite pass level to go directly into university which is why they go through the path of a certificate diploma, then a degree?---Those students who are looking for that continual pathway of study traditionally have completed year 12, so they would come in at a diploma level, not necessarily a certificate level.
**** LESLIE RALPH XXN MR MALONEY
PN213
In your experience would they, generally speaking, have not achieved a high enough pass to go directly into a university degree course?---In some cases, yes.
PN214
Okay. Now, you mentioned in relation to the job description and you instance some areas where you say the job description has changed. Mandatory reporting for example, are you saying to this Commission that a person who's done a certificate III, a one year course, has that call on their own to work out whether they're going to mandatorily report an incident with a child? Or would they do that in conjunction with the team leader or group leader or the director of the centre?---Those people, those employees working with children are mandated to report incidences of child abuse. Now, I cannot help you with policies and procedures within services. All I can say is that those people employed in a service are mandated to report.
PN215
PN216
MS WILSON: I've just got one further question. You've stated that there's a - you would like them to carry out some work experience prior to taking on the certificate III and up to the 100 hours of paid or unpaid. Is that a prerequisite for the certificate III?
PN217
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: You mean to commence the course or - - -
PN218
MS WILSON: To commence the course, is that a prerequisite?---It's not a prerequisite per se but it's preferable.
**** LESLIE RALPH XXN MS WILSON
PN219
Would you allow someone to do a certificate III if they hadn't undertaken 100 hours worth of paid or unpaid work?---It's not a yes or no. What happens is that CIT has a rating system or a balance system and preference is certainly given to people who are in the work force and or who have had work experience as opposed to someone who has not demonstrated against the selection criteria that they do have a strong interest. So yes, probably we would if there was a position but preference is given to those people who do have that experience.
PN220
So, you're also stating that there is a sufficient interest within certificate III, or to take on certificate III, to actually knock people back who haven't had the required experience, workplace experience?---It varies from year to year, so I'm hesitant to say a definite yes or no.
PN221
Thank you.
PN222
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination?
PN223
MS BELLINO: No questions.
PN224
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Can I just ask you some questions relevant - can you hear me?---Yes.
PN225
In your attachment A1 there's a document, Department of Community Services, and there's Course Implementation Information. It refers to certificate III in Children's Services traineeship. Is that a different course to the certificate III course that you refer to in paragraph 12 of your statement?---The traineeships are - the qualification is the same - - -
PN226
I see?---- - - you do come out with your certificate III. The method of delivery is different. So, instead of being classroom based it's what we call on-the-job, or very similar to an apprentice model - - -
**** LESLIE RALPH XXN MS WILSON
PN227
I see?---- - - but not quite.
PN228
And the certificate III courses, what level of AQF rating do they attract?---I don't know that without actually going back and double-checking.
PN229
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Nothing further? Thank you for your evidence, Ms Ralph, you are excused.
PN230
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Next witness?
PN231
MS BELLINO: The union calls Judy Elton.
PN232
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---Judy Elton, 23 Reveley Crescent, Stirling.
PN233
And what's your current place of employment?---Greenway Early Child Care Centre.
PN234
And what position are you employed in?---I'm employed as a level 2 in the infants room.
PN235
Ms Elton, have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN236
Could you identify this as a copy of the statement that you've prepared?---Yes, it is.
PN237
Are there any corrections that you wish to make to this statement?---No.
PN238
I would seek to tender the statement.
PN239
PN240
MS BELLINO: We have no further questions.
PN241
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: So, do you say that your statement is true and correct?---Yes.
**** JUDY ELTON XN MS BELLINO
PN242
PN243
MR MORPHETT: Ms Elton, if you can't hear me, tell me to speak up?---Thank you.
PN244
I've already had one complaint. In your statement you make reference at point 7 through to point 9 about - sorry, do you have a copy of your statement with you?---Yes.
PN245
Okay. Point 7 through to point 9 about how you've been working in the industry for 11 to 12 years in an unqualified capacity ostensibly. And at point 10 you make some specific statements about the duties that you're currently undertaking and say that you're required to perform, and I quote where you say that, "To plan, implement and evaluate development programs for individual children and groups within the centre. I'm also required to be responsible for reporting observations, both written and verbal, or individual children or groups for programming purposes". Could you tell us why you made specific reference to those in terms of your job description?---Because that's what I do, that's part of my job description.
PN246
All right. And that - - - ?---I'm not - did you say that - that I was not qualified? I was not qualified for most of my time, but I have my Cert III.
PN247
Yes, I know, I said "ostensibly" - - - ?---Yes.
PN248
- - - unqualified?---Yes, okay.
PN249
I know you're qualified now?---Yes.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN250
I was getting to that?---Okay. Well, on attachment 1 on my witness statement there are actually two - I've put in two samples of selection criteria from my service. One is an old one which is Child Care Worker Level 2, which is what was used a fair few years ago. And then the other one is Child Care Worker Level 2 which is what is current. And one of the - say, under selection criteria for four - for three, it says, "Ability to implement and evaluate a developmentally appropriate program and environment suitable to children under school age entry. Demonstrated ability to record observations and update children's developmental records". So, that's actually part of my duty statement. And the other point that I'd like to make, that in studying the Cert III you don't actually study that, you don't study that until you're in your diploma, but that's a requirement.
PN251
It might be better if you just respond to the questions?---Yes.
PN252
So, I'll just come back to my question because you've made specific reference and then you've given us some - a description of a number of other issues around that. But the duties that you're currently carrying out, they are the duties of a Child Care Worker Level 2, not another level?---Well, that's - because that's what we're actually classified - that's what we're called, a Child Care Level 2.
PN253
But what I'm saying is that, you know, you are carrying out the duties of a Child Care Worker Level 2?---Yes.
PN254
Not a Child Care Worker Level 3 or a Child Care Worker Level 1?---No, because we don't have - we only have Child Care Level 2 and then the team leaders in our service.
PN255
Okay, so - - - ?---That's what we're classified as.
PN256
So, the Commission can be satisfied that you're carrying out the duties of a Child Care Worker Level 2 in accordance with the award?---Yes.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN257
Okay. At point 11 you make specific reference to the selection criteria and then you attach that to your statement. And you specify there that it's essential to have a certificate III in Child Care Practice and/or minimum two years in child care. Can you inform the Commission as to why you made that specific reference to the qualification?---That it's essential? Why I made that? Because that's on the selection criteria for that position.
PN258
Right. So, you would currently fulfil both of those requirements, wouldn't you, having worked in the industry for as long as you have?---Yes.
PN259
And now you've also got a certificate III?---Yes.
PN260
Okay. Point 12 you say - you make reference to the fact that you found it strange that after having achieved a certificate III qualification your employer continued to pay you as a level 2. Why did you find that strange?---The word is not "strange". I guess it's more disappointing. I think - - -
PN261
Well, you said "strange" in your statement, that's why - - - ?---I know. I just think that I - I think that I'm worth more.
PN262
Right. And why do you think you're worth more? Just because you've achieved the certificate III qualification?---I think because of the level that I work at. I consider myself to be professional. Licensing and accreditation demands that I be professional. My employees expect me to be professional, and that's what I am. I don't consider that what I'm earning indicates my level of professionalism.
PN263
And I think your statement mentioned you were considering going -doing further qualifications?---I'm three-quarters of the way through my diploma.
PN264
Right. So, you are furthering your growth in the industry?---Yes.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN265
Okay. At item 15 of your statement you make reference to other training that you've - you include an extensive list in your statement of courses that you've undertaken from between 1997 and 2003. For what reason have you put those in your statement?---Well, I was asked to sort of submit any other training that I have done. Is that what you want to know?
PN266
Yes?---Yes.
PN267
And so that training was - part of that training, was that required for you to complete a certificate III?---No, it was because I felt that there were lots of changes in the industry, and because there were quite a lot of training courses available I wanted to avail myself of those so that I could improve my practice.
PN268
Okay. So, it was a choice by you to - - - ?---Yes, absolutely.
PN269
- - - put those extra courses in?---Yes.
PN270
And you weren't required by our employer to complete any of those sorts of courses?---No, no.
PN271
You state also at item 24 of your statement that you're required by your job to undertake programming even though you're a Level 2 Child Care Worker. But aren't they - some of the programming duties, aren't they usually duties that fall within the realm of responsibilities and duties of a Level 2 Child Care Worker?---Of the team leader or a level 2? Sorry, could you clarify - - -
PN272
No, a level 2? You're a level 2?---Yes. They are because if your team leader is absent you are required to fill in for the team leader.
PN273
Yes, so you do undertake some - you know, you assist with programming - - - ?---Yes.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN274
- - - or do some yourself?---Yes.
PN275
And - but aren't these normally the duties that are carried out by a Level 2 Child Care Worker?---They are - we work together in conjunction with the team leader - - -
PN276
Yes?---- - - in the room, but when the team leader is not there we're actually - we are required to plan and implement a program.
PN277
So, it would be reasonable to say that you assist in preparation and implementation of a program for - that's suitable for groups of - or programming purposes?---We do, and when the team leader is not there we actually fulfil the team leader's duties.
PN278
So, I assume in that situation you're acting on higher duties?---Usually. Say if the team leader is away for one day, you aren't actually paid acting and higher duties, you actually just fulfil that position.
PN279
You also make reference at item 26 and 27 of your statement that the amount of observations and programming planning, changed development etcetera that you undertake, that you also spend some of your own time at night and during lunch to do programming work. Why is that?---There's not enough time. I work in an infants/toddler room, and you just don't stop physically working. You just don't stop. You can't - in that area it's just about impossible to sit down and write observations. Sometimes we might have - one person might scribe while the other one is sort of talking to try and do it as a team like that. But quite often at the end of the week or the end of the day we might take home some observation forms and fill them out or do it in our lunch break.
PN280
And I think with your attachments to your statement you've clearly identified that there was - that you were assisting in observations and programming, is that correct?---We're required to write observations, that's - - -
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN281
But you assist in those?---Well, I'm still - I'm required - I'm assisting in the collection of observations, but I'm still required to write observations.
PN282
And are you aware that there's provisions under the Child Care Industry (Australian Capital Territory) Award 1998 for paid periods of programming time?---That's for the team leader.
PN283
That's for the team leader?---For the team leader, not for the level 2s.
PN284
I don't believe it actually says anything in the award about only being for the team leader. Have you pursued that at any stage?---The team leader in most services that I'm aware of are the people who are given the programming time. Other levels aren't.
PN285
So, in that case could it be said that in most services the qualified child care worker being the person with a diploma is usually the person who does the programming?---They are given two - well, it depends on the service that they work in. In our service our team leader is given two hours a week to actually do the programming, but before they get there all the observations have to be collected and discussions made, and two hours is not a lot of time to do - to actually - to write a program and to do developmental summaries and profiles of children and so forth, and it needs to be a team effort.
PN286
I'll get back to my question. It is that in most situations that you'd be aware of that the programming is done by the qualified child care worker?---We are meant to assist with that programming and that the team leader is given the two hours a week to do it in.
PN287
Could it be that the reason why the team leader is given that time is because the Level 2 Child Care Worker is not supposed to be carrying out those sorts of extra duties?---No. If you read the selection criteria you will find that a level 2 is meant to be assisting and capable of doing that and we are required to actually follow up to do observations. It's part of our requirement.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN288
I think you said to plan, implement and evaluate the element of programs for individual children and groups within the centre?---Yes.
PN289
"I am also required to be responsible for reporting observations both frequent and verbal, for individual children or groups for programming purposes"?---That's right.
PN290
Well, reporting as a programming person does not necessarily mean that you are doing the programming?---No, but usually if I had one of our observation sheets I could show you that. We are meant to decode the observation and to write down some suggestions for experiences for the program. That is actually part of my job. Probably I should have submitted one of those so that you could see but that is a requirement.
PN291
So, that when you have prepared those documents who do you give them to?---To the team leader.
PN292
So you give them to the team leader?---Yes.
PN293
And a team made up to the program?---Yes, the team leader takes away my observation - my decoded observation and the suggestions for the program.
PN294
Now, at item 29 of your statement you make reference to being an occupation, health and safety officer of the centre. Is that a requirement of being a level 2 - - -?---No, it's a volunteer - - -
PN295
It's a volunteer?---A voluntary thing, yes.
PN296
So, did you ever receive any training?---Absolutely.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN297
And what sort of training did you do?---It's the ACT Workcover training.
PN298
And did you do any of that at CIT?---No, no. That's an ACT Workcover - you do do occ health and safety as far as the child care industry goes when you're at CIT. But to be a rep your service is required to send you to do training with the ACT Workcover.
PN299
And how would the training you received at CIT in your certificate III in occ health and safety compare with the training you received at Workcover?---It's a lot more advanced at Workcover because it's teaching you the legislation.
PN300
All right. So, in your view, having done the Workcover course is the CIT occ health and safety course - is that basically fundamentals, do you think?---I think that the CIT course is excellent but it's not teaching the legislation. It's a law - the law requires that you have a health and safety rep that was educated by Workcover so that's why I did it. And you are covering legislation which is the law and it's a generic course. It's not just geared for child care, it's a generic course.
PN301
Now, Ms Elton, you know, you obviously have an extensive experience in child care, you have been involved in the child care industry for, you said, eleven to twelve years?---Yes.
PN302
Has the environment that you carry out your work within the centre, has that actually changed over those years?---I've worked in three - over three or four centres basically and yes, it has. The level of the work that is expected of me has actually increased. The educative side of that has increased quite dramatically. When I first started - - -
PN303
No, what I was actually asking you about is the actual environment you within. I mean, is a child care centre now a better environment to work in than it was ten years ago?---I think so, yes.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN304
And those environments have improved. In what sort of way have they improved?---Well, years ago they always appeared to me to be sort of like a babysitting place mainly because the people looking after the children weren't necessarily educated. Accreditation is actually - and licensing has demanded that the levels of child care centres has just increased dramatically.
PN305
So, the environment in a child care centre has improved in terms of a place to work?---Absolutely.
PN306
As a place to work too?---Not as a place to work in. It's a lot more stressful because we've still got the same time limits and there's a lot more demand on us now with what we're required to do.
PN307
Has there been any like technological changes? Are you supposed to utilise different types of equipment now that you didn't have to use before?---What sort of technological changes do you mean? Like computers and so forth?
PN308
Machinery, computers?---Well, everyone uses computers nowadays because it just sort of saves time.
PN309
But how would they normally be used in a child care environment?---Well, they're used in the preschool room in technology. They're used for maths and language and so forth.
PN310
How many other staff are you responsible for as a Level 2 Child Care Worker?---Whenever the team leader is not there I am usually responsible for anyone who comes in as program support.
PN311
And that's within your room?---That's within my room.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN312
And how many children are in care in your room?---Ten.
PN313
Over the years - I mean, if you've been eleven to twelve years, then you would have been involved in the industry pretty close to the 1990 decision when this current structure was created. Has there been any changes in the staff to child ratio during that period of time?---I can't remember. I wasn't that closely associated way back then. I just worked. I don't think so. We're just working - I am working with the ratios of one to five in infants and toddlers which is pretty stressful so there's two staff members to ten babies and toddlers in our room.
PN314
One to five, yes?---One to five.
PN315
Nothing further.
PN316
PN317
MR MALONEY: Ms Elton, the size of your group you look after is ten?---It's ten children, yes.
PN318
They're from aged six weeks up to two years old?---They are. We haven't got any as young as six weeks but up - - -
PN319
Sorry?---We haven't any as young as six weeks but yes, that's the age. I mean, at times we have them at - you know, they might be over two. It just depends if there's room for them to move into the next room or if they're developmentally ready.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MALONEY
PN320
Do you know what the actual licence numbers of your centre are?---42 is what we have.
PN321
And the age groups catered for?---They go from six weeks through to school age. Five to six - six years.
PN322
What are the groups separating each of the groups?---Sorry. Well, we've got infants, toddlers and preschool children.
PN323
The infants/toddlers is a mixed group?---It just depends on the demographics of the area. In our room we have infants and toddlers because there's not enough room for toddlers to move on. We've got toddlers in the next room and they'll be children that go from roughly two to three years of age and then the preschool is from three usually to five.
PN324
And you spoke before about what you do when the team leader - is it a team leader or group leader?---Team leader.
PN325
Different states - territories have different terminologies. When your team leader is not there, do you also then have another employee who comes in and works with you with the group?---There's always - the ratio is always withheld so what we have, say, in our centre is that when the team leader goes for morning tea or lunch or whatever we have a person, a support person, who comes in and works to cover the breaks. If a team leader is away sick we usually shuffle positions around and then employ a program support person to come in so that the ratios are - they must be maintained.
PN326
And your position is a full time position?---It's 30 hours a week so it's not quite full time.
PN327
And what about your team leader? Is that a full time position?---Yes.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MALONEY
PN328
You say in paragraph 7 of your statement, expressing some frustration and years of working in the industry and being at level 2, did you apply for other jobs at your centre?---I'm probably a bit picky. Sorry. I don't like to work really long hours. I like to work because I like to work and there have been different times when I have looked at other positions and have decided not to apply because the hours have been two long. 30 hours is enough for me. But I am - I am currently, as you heard, working on my diploma and I would like to eventually take a job as a team leader. If I can find one with hours short enough - - -
PN329
So, that's at your election, thank you. I won't spend too much time on the point but the development of the program - is it reasonable to say that you do that in collaboration and in conjunction with your team leader?---Yes.
PN330
In paragraph 15 of your statement, under training, you detail there a number of courses that you have done and presumably someone has a single day or short courses. Most of them seem to have been completed in the last two years. There is one that was done some six years ago?---I know. That was the only one that I had an opportunity to do and it's only been in the last few years that I've felt that I didn't want to, sort of, become stagnant and inflexible. You know, I'm a lot older than what I was. I am nearly 52 and I didn't want to become inflexible so I decided to, you know, educate myself. I have actually - since this duty statement was prepared, this year I have done eleven workshops so it's quite a lot since the duty statement was prepared.
PN331
The duration of those workshops?---Evening - most of the music ones are full days and then evening workshops.
PN332
Now, you go on at paragraphs 20, 21 and 22 and indicate that in July 2001 you attended an allergy panel?---Yes.
PN333
And on that you organised a St John's Ambulance course in relation to the epipen?---Yes.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MALONEY
PN334
Administering an epipen is a fairly serious thing, isn't it?---Yes, yes.
PN335
Would that normally be done in conjunction with say the team leader or the director of the centre?---No. They could - well, yes, if they're there. They could use an epipen if they have done the course because I was led to believe that you couldn't administer an epipen unless you had actually done the course. So, every person in our centre did a course.
PN336
An epipen is really an emergency injection, isn't it?---Yes.
PN337
If a child has a very bad reaction, an allergic reaction?---Yes. We have nobody currently in our centre who requires that. It would be supplied by a parent because you can't just buy an epipen over the counter easily, it would cost a fortune anyway.
PN338
And generally speaking, do you maintain a medication an allergy book at the centre?---We do, yes.
PN339
Parents advising children have allergies?---Yes.
PN340
You give an incident in paragraph 25 of a particular child and the way you dealt with that child. You say you were required to program - to redirect his attention away from aggressive behaviour. Boys will always play with guns, won't they?---They were.
PN341
But did you seek directional guidance from your team leader or your director about that?---No. We just - the team discussed it because that's the way we work. The team leader is not always in the room so in our centre it is not at all hierarchy - we work as a team and so we discussed it and we worked out, you know, just what we would do. We worked our strategies out.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MALONEY
PN342
The "we" being you and your team leader?---Yes. Because I work part time, because I'm there till 2 o'clock, there's also another person that comes in after me at 2 o'clock and she and I work together in the middle of the day, we overlap, so there's actually three of us. So, yes.
PN343
The setting up of the room, it's part of your normal function?---Yes, because I start work at 7.30 in the morning so I have to set it up.
PN344
And that's always been the case?---It has since I've been in the centre that I'm in now.
PN345
You mention - you instance children from non-English speaking backgrounds - - - ?---Yes.
PN346
- - - in paragraph 31. Children from various ethnic backgrounds have always been a feature of the operation of your centre haven't they?---Yes. There's nearly always somebody that comes in.
PN347
It's not something new or novel?---No. Not - not in the last few years anyway.
PN348
In fact you may incorporate some of the cultural diversities into the program?---That's right.
PN349
Does your director or team leader undertake regular performance reviews with yourself?---Yes, yes, the director does.
PN350
How frequently?---About twice a year I think and then just on a casual basis.
PN351
Thank you.
**** JUDY ELTON XXN MR MALONEY
PN352
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination?
PN353
MS BELLINO: There's just a couple of questions, your Honour.
PN354
MS BELLINO: You were asked a question about being level 2 and not required applying for a higher position. Can I ask you why you haven't applied for a level 3 position at Communities at Work in your centre?---We don't have level 3 positions. We have level 2 positions and team leaders.
PN355
So are you saying that there's no Child Care Worker Level 3 is required at your centre for you to apply for?---No.
PN356
So there are - are you familiar with the award?---Yes.
PN357
And you're familiar with the Child Care Worker Level 3 classification in the award?---The current award?
PN358
Yes?---I probably haven't read up on that point.
PN359
Well, can I ask you, are there no workers in your centre who are required to develop, plan, implement and evaluate a developmental program under the supervision of the director or a Child Care Worker Level 5?---We just have - we have team leaders who are level 5s, who are required to do that and we have Child Care Worker Level 2s who are required to be able to do that.
PN360
So essentially there's nowhere for you to go at Communities at Work? You can't - there are no level 3 positions for you to apply for?---We just don't have level 3 positions.
**** JUDY ELTON RXN MS BELLINO
PN361
And just one other question. You talked about the Health and Safety Course you completed at CIT and the Work Cover course. Can you explain the specific details of what you learned at the CIT Health and Safety Course?---Well, I didn't go to CIT, I went through an external body, I just want to correct that.
PN362
External course?---It was actually - it was pertaining more to children, to all the health issues in the centre, cleanliness, correct setting up of the playground and that sort of thing.
PN363
And so do you use what you learned in that course in your job?---Through CIT?
PN364
The external course that you did for Health and Safety?---For Work Cover?
PN365
No, the child care one?---Yes, yes, because it's essential anyway. Yes, I do.
PN366
Thank you. No further questions.
PN367
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: What can I do for you, Mr Morphett?
PN368
MR MORPHETT: Just some further questions arising.
PN369
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Well, I think arising from that, that was re-examination.
PN370
MR MORPHETT: Well, there was just a specific comment made regarding the level 3 qualification.
**** JUDY ELTON RXN MS BELLINO
PN371
MS BELLINO: There were questions raised in cross-examination.
PN372
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: That's right. You asked a question about what questions were asked comparing the health and safety course undertaken as part of a child care study with the Work Cover course and the re-examination was directed at that.
PN373
MR MORPHETT: No, sir, I was speaking about the reference to the Child Care Worker Level 3.
PN374
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Right, ask your question. You can re-examine on this, Ms Bellino, but I encourage you to limit the questions to what's raised.
PN375
MR MORPHETT: Just one quick question, Ms Elton. The Child Care Worker Level 3 under the award which was mentioned by the ALHMU requires that you have a - hold a TAFE child care certificate as awarded prior to 1990 or an equivalent qualification which is recognised under the Act. Do you possess such a qualification?---I possess a current Child Care Cert 3.
PN376
So you have a certificate III, not a child care certificate?---I have a certificate III in Children's Services.
PN377
Right, thank you.
PN378
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Anything arising?
PN379
MS BELLINO: No, thank you.
**** JUDY ELTON FXXN MR MORPHETT
PN380
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Elton, you're excused.
PN381
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Could we have the next witness please.
PN382
PN383
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---Raelene Susan George, Unit 2, 21 Aspinall Street, Watson.
PN384
And what is your current place of employment?---Forrest After School Care.
PN385
And what's your current position of employment?---Director.
PN386
Ms George, have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN387
Do you identify this as a copy of the statement you've prepared?---Yes, I do.
PN388
Have there been any changes to this statement?---Just that I wanted to add that I have a diploma of Children's Services in Outside School Hours Care.
PN389
There have been no other corrections to that statement?---No.
PN390
I would seek to tender the statement.
PN391
PN392
MS BELLINO: I have no further questions for this witness.
PN393
**** RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE XXN MS WILSON
PN394
MS WILSON: Ms George, I'd just like to refer you to paragraph 15 of your statement, it's the list of training courses that you've undertaken, you've got quite a substantial list down there. Were these all by your own choice or initiative to undertake these courses?---Some of them were courses that I needed to attend as part of Licensing Regulations and others were things that, yes, I chose to attend so that I could further my knowledge.
PN395
Could you just point out which ones were acquired through accreditation and which ones were your own initiative?---Statement of Attainment in Safe Food Handling would probably be - and Food Act (ACT) 2001 and the Food Standards 2002 - - -
PN396
But the rest of them were your own - - - ?---Yes.
PN397
- - - were your own initiative to take them on? And why, I mean, it's pretty clear why you would undertake extra courses but would you please let the Commission know?---So that I could further my knowledge and provide a better service, running of the service and also better things for the children as well.
PN398
Now, you say you're a director of the Forrest, is it, Forrest After School Care facility. Are the staff there currently paid higher than the award wage at this point in time?---Some of them would be a little bit.
PN399
Is there an enterprise bargaining agreement for Forrest?---No.
PN400
No, no there's not. Do you believe the staff should be paid more?---Yes, I do.
PN401
And at this stage, if - I mean, if Forrest - you, as a director, wanted to pay more, couldn't you have implemented an enterprise bargaining agreement?---We are actually currently looking at that at this point in time.
**** RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE XXN MS WILSON
PN402
And you intend on - well, you support the union's application in relation to the pay and structure?---Yes, I do.
PN403
So you would or your intention is to put in the same rates or above what the union proposes to do?---Yes.
PN404
And how do you propose to pay or afford such increases because at the moment you're only paying award or just above and the increase is substantial, how do you propose, as a facility, to afford these substantial pay increases?---Well, that would be something that would be considered when the budget was done and formulated.
PN405
So you haven't considered that at this stage, how you, as a centre, would afford the increases?---Well, what we would do is look at the budget and work out how we can afford to do that and - - -
PN406
So the answer is no, you haven't considered the - - - ?---Well, at this point in time I think we would be okay but it would depend on how much the increase was as to what we would need to look at from there.
PN407
And so far to date, why haven't you, until now, put in your own enterprise bargaining agreement? I mean, obviously it's clear that you're doing it now but it's been - the award has been around for a while, is there any particular reason why it's only now that you're putting in new arrangements?---It's just something that we've been discussing at committee level and we've made the decision to do something about it.
PN408
Paragraph 17, you state that you had an employee that did certificate III in Children's Services and had she completed her qualification you would have looked at changing her role within the centre. Would the change also have meant a pay increase?---Yes.
**** RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE XXN MS WILSON
PN409
And would that mean that you were increasing her to a higher level?---Yes, I would have done.
PN410
So, in effect, you were what, promoting her to a level - level 3?---Yes, as a level 3.
PN411
And is that because a position was available or you would make that position available within your centre?---Well, because we need to have an increased ratio of qualified staff by 2005, I'm looking at ways that I can accommodate that and to look at the different structures and jobs that the staff do.
PN412
Yes?---So that we can give people in those more qualified positions more hours and so they will want to work at the service.
PN413
So the - well, just say she had sat on, she would be paid from the moment she got the certificate III or in 2005, when the changes come in and the requirements for qualified staff changed?---No, once she had completed her certificate.
PN414
But she wouldn't have actually moved up the position in the centre?---Her role would have changed because at the moment she was just as a level 1 and sometimes does some work as a level 2. So, yes, her role would have changed once she had completed the qualifications.
PN415
And has she left?---No, she's still at the - - -
PN416
No, she's still there? Has she told you why she did not finish her certificate III?---No.
PN417
No. And you haven't asked?---I did but I didn't really get an answer as to why.
**** RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE XXN MS WILSON
PN418
Thank you. I've got no further - - -
PN419
PN420
MR MALONEY: Ms George, do you know what classification level you're at on the award? You say you're a director?---At the moment I'm a Director Level 3.
PN421
Level 3, right. And there's no enterprise bargaining agreement or certified agreement operating at your service at the moment?---There's not, no.
PN422
Okay. You say in paragraph 24 of your statement that you've alerted your management committee to the fact that in 2005 they'd have to have a ratio of one qualified staff member per 30 children. Do you know what your current ratios are in terms of staff numbers to children? Can you advise the Commission?---Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking me there. Are you asking me what ratio of staff to children I have?
PN423
Yes?---One to 10.
PN424
One to 10. And are you currently - is your service currently working on an exemption to the regulations? Just reading your comment in paragraph 24, that you're going to have to have a - one qualified staff member per 30 children by 2005. Is that a regulatory requirement, as arising under the regulations?---It will be a licensing requirement that in 2005 we need to have.
PN425
And at the moment, would that apply if someone were to start up a brand new service, that requirement that you're required to meet in 2005?---No, I don't think so. What it is at the moment is you need to have one qualified staff member. The person who's running the service needs to be a qualified staff member but at this point in time that's the only licensing requirement.
**** RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE XXN MR MALONEY
PN426
And that's what you're going to?---I'm qualified, one of my assistant directors is qualified, and then my other assistant director fits in to the grandfather clause of when they brought in the qualification regulations.
PN427
And the grandfather runs out in 2005?---I don't know the answer to that.
PN428
You say at paragraph 4 that you've got 12 other carers per day. Are they all for about three hours per day as well?---Yes, they are. My two assistant directors work four hours a day, and then I have one other person that works four hours a day, and then everybody else works three.
PN429
You mention at paragraph 8 that there was different funding available for children with special needs. Do you have any of those at the moment? Any children with special needs?---I do, yes.
PN430
And do you receive funding for additional services for those children?---For one of them I receive SNSS funding.
PN431
You mention at paragraph 16 that you formulate a budget for the service. Who do you report to to get to approve that budget?---The committee.
PN432
That's a management committee?---Yes, it is.
PN433
And is that a committee of parents?---It is a committee of parents, yes.
PN434
Is it only parents of the service, or are there other people on the committee as well?---No, just parents of the service. And then I do also liaise with the bookkeeper as well because I have a bookkeeper that does the bookkeeping side of the service.
**** RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE XXN MR MALONEY
PN435
And parents who use your service, do some of them qualify for child care benefit?---Yes, they do.
PN436
And presumably you charge fees for your service?---I do.
PN437
You mentioned earlier on that you've given some consideration to perhaps an enterprise bargaining agreement of some description for the service and your staff. Have you had any consideration of factoring in some sort of wage increase in there?---Yes.
PN438
And if you were considering factoring in a wage increase where do you source that additional funding from for the budget?---Well, that would need to be considered when we knew exactly what the wage increase would be, when it was to be implemented, and whether that fits in to the current budget that we have, or whether we need to look at increasing the fees, reducing expenditure in other areas to cover that.
PN439
Do you usually try and budget to break even or at least have some surplus?---Pretty much to just break even, because it is a service which is run by the Parents and Citizens Association, so it's not a profit making service.
PN440
And how many years have you been doing this budgeting for the service?---Four years.
PN441
Sorry?---Four years.
PN442
And would I be right in saying that the lion's share of the budget goes in to salaries and wages?---Yes.
PN443
I have nothing further, thank you.
**** RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE XXN MR MALONEY
PN444
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any other questions? Any re-examination?
PN445
MS BELLINO: No re-examination, no, thank you.
PN446
PN447
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Next witness.
PN448
PN449
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---Diedre Patricia Hobson of 14 Skardon Street, Kaleen, ACT 2617.
PN450
And what's your current place of employment?---Reid Early Childhood Centre in Canberra.
PN451
And your current position?---I'm a Level 5 Assistant Director.
PN452
Ms Hobson, have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN453
Do you identify this as a copy of the statement that you have prepared?---Yes.
PN454
And have you made any changes to that statement?---Yes, I have. Under the qualification section in point 5 the sentence, "I completed the certificate in Child Care Practices '96", we have amended, "Which is equivalent to the pay classification for the current Child Care 3 in the award. And also one other in - - -
PN455
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I'm sorry, can you just go over that change again?---Sorry?
PN456
Can you just repeat that?---Yes, it was just the wording in the first two lines of point 5 - - -
PN457
Yes?--- - - - to read, "I completed the certificate in Child Care Practices in '96 which is equivalent to the pay classification for the current Child Care 3 in the award". The wording was slightly different in the first version.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XN MS BELLINO
PN458
Okay, thank you. Do you have the other change?---There was one other, in point 8 where we talk about using an epipen for analeptic shock. We just added, "Which is a single dose injection of adrenalin to counteract a severe allergic reaction". It was just detailing what the epipen was.
PN459
MS BELLINO: Is your statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN460
We would seek to tender that have no other questions for this witness.
PN461
PN462
PN463
MS WILSON: First of all, I just notice that you have changed paragraph 5 which is when you're talking about the Child Care Practices?---Yes.
PN464
And you've changed it to point out that it was a pay classification, it's the same level pay-wise - - - ?---That's right, because - - -
PN465
- - - or classification level?---- - - I did the - it was called a Certificate II, it was the only thing available when I did mine, was a child care certificate. Now there's a child care certificate III which is slightly more - a lot more study.
PN466
When you undertook the Child Care Practices in 1996 was that a one year - that was a one year course?---It was one year full-time, but I chose to do it at night because I have to work in the daytime, and it took me about 18 months to two years at night.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MS WILSON
PN467
And you're aware that the current certificate III is also a one year course?---Yes.
PN468
Yes?---Just with a lot more units involved.
PN469
But it is a one year course?---Yes.
PN470
Or you can do it part-time if you chose. And the same amount of contact hours. Obviously, yours was spread out doing it part-time?---Mm.
PN471
That was a "yes"?---Yes. And when I had finished that I didn't gain any pay increase once I'd finished my child care - - -
PN472
Did you change positions within where you were working when you completed?---No.
PN473
No?---No.
PN474
Which is the reason why you didn't receive a pay increase?---No, I would have had to have continued and done a diploma to go to a level 4. I was already a level 2. I did the certificate, and with no further pay increase. Until I went on to do the diploma, then I could apply for a level 4.
PN475
But you stayed in the same position prior to and after completing the certificate III?---Certificate - Child Care Practices, yes.
PN476
Yes, sorry. In paragraph 16 you state that you believe that the industry should receive more money for undertaking further studies, and when they have completed their studies. Now, at the commencement of undertaking further studies do you believe that there should be a pay increase?---Some recognition, yes, because - - -
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MS WILSON
PN477
Currently at your centre is this the procedure?---No.
PN478
No?---So, it doesn't encourage people, unfortunately, to do their studies.
PN479
However, once you've completed a certificate III you are in a position - or once you do a diploma - - - ?---Diploma, but not certificate III at the moment, that's why we're seeking reclassification, so there is somewhere for people to go once they've done the certificate III.
PN480
And at this stage there - - - ?---There isn't, no.
PN481
- - - isn't, no. Paragraph number 27 is a reference to - 26 and 27, you talk about non-English speaking background?---Right.
PN482
Have there always been children with non-English backgrounds where you've worked?---Yes, but there are - we have higher numbers of them at the moment, more enrolled in courses.
PN483
Do your staffing levels maintain the same level?---Yes, it's just extra work for the staff.
PN484
But you do say that you receive some assistance from Resourcelink?---When we can get it. When we can find - we can't always find the people with the language from the backgrounds that the children come from to assist us.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MS WILSON
PN485
Could you explain to the Commission what you would normally undertake in relation to receiving help and assistance from Resourcelink?---Well, we try and contact Resourcelink, which provides assistance, or tries to provide assistance, which they provide someone which will teach our staff key words in the children's home language and in the parent's home language, which - you know, to allow them to settle because they're obviously coming to a new country, a new centre, new staff, child care is very new and it takes a lot of work and a lot of time to settle them as well as the other children we have in our care. So, it's just a lot of extra work.
PN486
But you do still receive some assistance?---Some support when we can get it, when we can find people with the right background areas. If we can't and they're unable to do that for us, we just have to do the best we can.
PN487
Well, for example, out of the children from non-English speaking backgrounds that you currently have, how many of those have you been provided assistance with?---With the four I've got at the moment, two we were able to find people with a home language - - -
PN488
Out of, sorry?---Out of the four this semester.
PN489
If I could now refer you to paragraph number 37, and in that paragraph you actually list a lot of examples of the changes - - - ?---Some of the - yes.
PN490
- - - that have happened within the industry. First of all, I'll walk you through each change and I might ask you a question, and then if you have anything further to add I'll ask you to explain the further changes that you might not have listed. Now, initially, you mentioned you were involved in a lot of extra study units?---Mm.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MS WILSON
PN491
Does the change in the amount of study units result in a change in the length of time that either the diploma, or associate diploma which it was previously - - - ?---It certainly did for me because I was nearly three-quarters of the way through the associate diploma, and they added extra units, so it did take me longer to complete, yes.
PN492
Okay, generally, is it a two year course?---Yes.
PN493
They're both two year courses, are they?---You can - depends how hard you work, yes.
PN494
But that's a personal decision as to how hard you want to work to - - - ?---Yes.
PN495
But - so, yes - - - ?---But in my case - - -
PN496
- - - a two year course in both?---Yes, in my case and my example it did take me longer to complete because I was almost at the end of the associate diploma and to get the diploma of Children's Services I did have to complete extra study units so it lengthened the time of study that I did.
PN497
Was that the bridging course?---No, no, it changed when I was halfway through.
PN498
And added in ones that - - - ?---Yes.
PN499
- - - didn't match - - - ?---The people that have only got the associate diploma at the moment, if they wanted to upgrade to a diploma they would have to go back and do more study units because that's what the course is.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MS WILSON
PN500
You state also that there's an increase in part-time child care?---Yes.
PN501
And that obviously means that there's - your licensing - you might still be - well, how many are you licensed for at your - - - ?---In my room or in the centre? Like, in the centre we're licensed for 62 children.
PN502
Within your room?---Within my room, 20, but there's - - -
PN503
How many - - - ?---- - - 35 children share those 20 spaces to meet the needs of the community.
PN504
However, the ratio of staff to child obviously never changes on a daily basis, does it?---No.
PN505
The daily responsibility to the children - - - ?---It's the same but we're talking in terms of - trying to give an example there because I have 30-something children sharing my 20 spaces, it's a lot more extra work in times of programming, writing up observations for those children, doing their checklist, like parent interviews, so, I've obviously got like 35 instead of 20, so there's - a lot more work is actually involved than if I had 20 full-time children.
PN506
And are you allocated programming time?---Yes, but no extra because we have part time places.
PN507
Is that two hours - - -?---Our centre gives three but the award is only two and it always takes me a lot longer than that.
PN508
You also took an implementation of written policies. Do you agree that policies actually assist in the daily care of the children, providing guidelines?---Yes, definitely.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MS WILSON
PN509
So, in fact, having a policy in force would actually make the daily running of the centre easier than prior to policies being in place?---Yes, definitely you need policies to set standards and something to refer to if you've got a problem within the centre.
PN510
And the employees do refer to that if there's something they'd need to check up?---Definitely.
PN511
Rather than previously they would have had to ask someone and possibly not even get accurate answers depending on who they asked?---Yes. And if you have a query with a parent you have you have your centre policy to back you up.
PN512
You say that there are no longer - you do not employ registered nurses?---Most centres don't, no.
PN513
And now you're responsible for giving and safe storage of medications?---Yes.
PN514
What does this process actually involve?---Well, if a child had had tonsillitis, for example, and came to the centre, they would bring medication with them. You would have to refer to your centre policies to see if they'd been on that medication long enough to be allowed back into care. You'd have to take the parent from any room to, in our particular situation, it's the nursery - it is stored in the nursery. We have a medication book which has to be filled in, signed, stated when the last dose was given, when the next dose is to be given. The medication then has to be put in a safe storage, locked box within a fridge so it is not accessible to any other children, and when it comes time to give that medication to a child, two staff have to check that have first aid certificates and check all the details like the child's name, the child, date of medication, that it's exactly what the parent has written and we actually have permission to give it.
PN515
How long is this process?---It depends how many children you've got on medication at the time, yes.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MS WILSON
PN516
For individual children. Like, it's a set process and - - -?---Well, it takes a staff member out of the room to take them to the area to fill in all the paperwork when they bring the child into the centre.
PN517
And I suppose you refer to the health, hygiene, food handling regulations?---Yes.
PN518
Has this actually changed the way that you work within the centres or is it merely - so it's enforceable, so it's a regulation?---There's just a lot more accountability. Like menus have to be a lot more detailed, more rotating, you have to - like, you've done a food handling course, different coloured chopping boards, different coloured cloths, introduction of like children encouraged to serve themselves, individual tongs, there's just a lot of extra things that people need to know and it is extra work and paperwork involved.
PN519
I have no further questions.
PN520
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Do you have any other questions?
PN521
MS WILSON: No, sir.
PN522
MR MORPHETT: I may have just had a couple of quick questions.
PN523
MR MORPHETT: Did you, when you started - I think you said you had an associate diploma or do you have a diploma now?---I have a diploma now but when I started it it was the associate diploma and it changed to diploma mid way through.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN524
And that would be the same for - and you mentioned that you had to do extra units?---Yes, because some people that did it in my era still have only got the associate diploma but I was lucky it changed mid-way so I could just stay on for a bit of extra study and complete it then.
PN525
So, that was choice to actually to actually upgrade to the diploma?---Not really, because there was no associate diploma when they phased in the diploma. I had to keep going.
PN526
Well, people who had associate diplomas at that time they had the opportunity to do a bridging course to become diploma employees, didn't they?---But I wasn't finished. I was like three quarters of the way through when it changes so I just kept going and did a few extra units.
PN527
Are people with associate diplomas still recognised as qualified child care workers?---In some centres and some of them have been encouraged by their centres to go back and upgrade.
PN528
But they are recognised as being qualified child care workers?---In some centres. If you look for are - - -
PN529
They are recognised?---I can only state for my own and I have recently advertised for a job and in the selection criteria says diploma or equivalent in children services. That's what we call it now, we don't use the wording "associate diploma".
PN530
Okay. Do you have a solid working knowledge of the regulations regarding the child care centres?---I believe I do.
PN531
Do the regulations stipulate that an associate diploma isn't recognised as a qualification?---Not generally I don't. I believe it's up to like individual centres. You know, the shortage of staff, as everyone knows at the moment, like, you're lucky enough to get anyone with a diploma to apply let alone - - -
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN532
You went on to mention, regarding programming that you have had, I believe you said in your room you had 20, but you had 30, was it - - -?---35 children sharing 20 spaces.
PN533
All right. So on a day to day basis though you're only caring for 20 children?---Yes, but it might be a different 20 on Monday to a different 20 on Friday.
PN534
So, the numbers are the same but the faces change?---Yes, and the observations, yes. So, instead of doing an observation on a child one week you might have to do two because you've got a different child Monday and a different child Friday so it's just the extra paperwork and accountability and extra programming.
PN535
And so they would be observations on a daily basis?---Daily and weekly, yes.
PN536
So, if you're taking 20 observations on 20 children in one day then the following day you might take 20 observations again?---Well, we wouldn't do 20. We usually do - we wouldn't have time to do 20 in a day.
PN537
Well, how many would you do in a day?---Probably two or three. We have them on a rotating basis when the children attend the centre. Like, we still have to have 35 lots of children with complete check lists, records, observations and implement a program based on their individual observations and we have to have everything up to date to show to parents at parent interviews and they have access to look at those records any time.
PN538
So, in terms of that sort of process, you know, taking observations, developing programs, implementing changes, reports to parents, when did all of a sudden that become necessary to do?---Well, that's part of the job of being a level 4.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN539
So, has it always been part of the job of being a level 4?---To do observations, yes.
PN540
Observations, programming?---Programming, yes.
PN541
Talking to parents - liaising with parents?---Yes.
PN542
Supervising staff?---Yes.
PN543
But more so when you have more children it just creates extra work. If I had 20 I would be doing a lot less paperwork than if I had 35 in my room at the moment.
PN544
So, what's actually increased is the amount of paper?---The amount of children, I would say.
PN545
Yes, but that's - and as an add on that has been the paper, is that what you're saying?---And you have it a lot more, yes, but I have a lot of different parents to talk to as well, like, you know, it's a lot more accountability is probably the word.
PN546
But I mean, surely there's 20 people coming, there's 20 parents either individual or groups of parents coming every morning and every night to drop off and pick up their children so you're still dealing with the same number of parents, it's just more faces, is that what you're saying?---Probably more faces but if a parent had an issue that they needed to make time to talk to you there's 35 of them as opposed to 20, that's what I'm trying to say.
PN547
So you would be hoping that not 35 children would have issues to speak to you about something?---No, but we like to give quality care and spend time with parents of all our children, yes.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN548
PN549
MR MALONEY: Ms Hobson, your position is, you say, a Level 5
PN550
Assistant Director in the toddler room, four days a week?---Yes.
PN551
Do you share that position with another team leader?---Yes, because I am assistant director I do three days a week teaching the toddlers and one full day in the week assisting the director in the office and running the centre.
PN552
So, is yours a full time or a part time position?---Classified as part time. Four fifths.
PN553
And the program for that group would be done in conjunction with the other team leader?---Yes.
PN554
And done in conjunction with your assistance?---They have an input in, yes, but they're only level 2 so they have input into our programming which we oversee.
PN555
Could you tell us the number of licensed places at your centre?---62 on any day.
PN556
And so you cater for the whole range of ages?---Nought to six years, yes.
PN557
Six week up to - - -?---Six weeks, yes.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MR MALONEY
PN558
You say in paragraph 37 of your statement, changes that are required. Mr Morphett suggested to you it is very similar sort of work as you have done in the past and it just seems to be more paperwork?---More paperwork, accountability.
PN559
You mention in the third dot point, new regulations. Are you referring there to child care regulations or the requirements of accreditation?---Probably both. Like, a lot more courses when you look for professional developments. A lot more courses and a lot more skills to be updated that are offered and people are expected to attend.
PN560
Operational matters such as - - -?---And accreditations on top of that.
PN561
Operational matters such as say, medication books, history medication, provision of food, preparation, storage, serving of food?---All of that has been upgraded. The Food Handling Act - everything - that's all been upgraded.
PN562
But all of that was previously done?---But not at the level it is now. Like, if I can give an example. In, like, health for the medication, for example, you just sent the child to the nurse. If they had a temperature you'd send the child to the nurse in the centre. Any medication, they would go to the nurse for the same thing. But now that extra work falls on the team leaders, the level 4s within the centre.
PN563
How long since your centre has had a registered nurse?---My particular centre, five years. Don't quote me on that but it would be between four and five and I don't believe there's many left that do. I can think of one in Belconnen that does but probably not any other in Canberra that have nurses nowadays.
PN564
Would you agree with me if I said the vast majority of centres have never employed registered nurses?---Not at all because I have worked that three that have.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MR MALONEY
PN565
In the ACT?---Yes, definitely.
PN566
You also mentioned in paragraph 37 that the programmed activities and experiences must be linked to child observations?---Yes.
PN567
Plans, interests, experience?---Yes.
PN568
Has it always been the case that you're required to plan an appropriate developmentally - sorry a developmentally appropriate program for the children?---It's always been the case to have a program for the children but the way we are taught these days it's in a lot more detail. You cannot just put out an activity and experience for the child, it all has to be linked on your program to group observations, individual observations, interest areas, needs, strengths, all of those areas before you put something on the program for the children. You can't just put out an activity because you feel like putting on an activity.
PN569
But it's always had to be developmentally appropriate for the needs, the age and the development levels of the child?---Yes, but in my opinion there was a lot more detail involved at the moment especially with accreditation. That's a huge upgrade and a huge - - -
PN570
The major difference in accreditation is that most of the things in a good quality centre have already been done over the years. It's just that you can now document and prove that you're doing it?---A lot more document, yes. So that involves a lot more work.
PN571
You mentioned in the last dot point at paragraph 37 that the staff must have written policies?---Yes.
PN572
They're general issues such as sun protection clothing, safe footwear, health hygiene?---Definitely.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON XXN MR MALONEY
PN573
They would be centre policies, wouldn't they?---Yes.
PN574
They apply across the board for all children?---Within centre, fairly standard but each centre does have their own policies and I am involved in writing those.
PN575
For the centre?---For our particular centre. But they can vary from centre to centre.
PN576
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Is there any re-examination?
PN577
PN578
MS BELLINO: Can I just ask you one question. You might do two observations per day. How long does it take you to do an observation for a child?---Well, it depends where you do it. So, an example, if I had a group of children doing an activity I would just write quick notes because I have got to supervise the group of children as well as the one I am doing an observation on. If it was to do with construction, something like that how they were going it, I would make quick notes on a sticky piece of paper and then write it up in my own time later, either in my programming time or I'd do it in the evening because you don't have time on the floor to do that.
PN579
When you're writing that plan how many areas of the child do you write about?---The major five plus interest areas.
PN580
Could you explain those?---Like, major five like the gross motor, which is physically, fine motor, small details, social interaction with others, emotional development and cognitive intellectual. So, all those particular areas for each child.
**** DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON RXN MS BELLINO
PN581
So, writing about those five areas for 20 children, how long would that take you to do?---A long time. If you do them properly and in detail you'd be looking at, you know, a ,good half an hour on each child.
PN582
And how does that change from a group that's 20 children to 35l children?---You're looking at about half an hour times 35 instead of 20.
PN583
Thank you. No more questions.
PN584
PN585
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: We need to adjourn until 11 am. During the adjournment, can I encourage the employer advocates to have a discussion between themselves so that we might be able to eliminate areas of overlap in the cross-examination. We will adjourn till 11.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.46am]
RESUMED [11.07am]
PN586
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Can you call your next witness please.
PN587
PN588
MS BELLINO: Could you please state your full name and address?---Stephanie Henderson, 15 Carleton Crescent, Kambah.
PN589
What's your current place of employment?---Acton Early Childhood.
PN590
And your current position?---Assistant Director.
PN591
Ms Henderson, have you prepared a written statement for today's proceeding?---I have.
PN592
Do you identify this as a copy of that statement that you have prepared?---Yes. Yes.
PN593
Have you made any changes to your statement?---No.
PN594
And is your statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN595
I seek to tender that statement.
PN596
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit UACT10.
PN597
MS BELLINO: We have no questions for this witness.
PN598
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN599
MR MORPHETT: Ms Henderson, if you ever don't hear me, just raise your hand?---If I read your statement correctly you say you've been involved in the child care industry for 10 years. Is that correct?---Yes.
PN600
And your current qualifications is that you have an associate diploma in Social Sciences in Child Care?---Yes.
PN601
Now, item 4 of your statement you make reference to the fact that you haven't completed a bridging course to upgrade to the qualification of a diploma because you see no benefit financially in doing so. Is that correct?---Yes.
PN602
Now, to the best of your knowledge, is an associate diploma the same as a diploma?---The course that I was offered to upgrade basically was going to be training - I think it was 100-odd hours and it was basically doing a project. I couldn't see a great deal of benefit in doing that, considering I'd been in the industry for a long period of time and learned a lot of skills whilst working in the industry. And yes, there probably is training differences but I would not know what they do in the diploma as what I did in the associate diploma, what the differences were.
PN603
Okay. So that at your qualification level, are you treated any differently to a person who has a diploma?---No.
PN604
So it has no impact on your day-to-day work is what I'm saying?---No.
PN605
Okay. Now, in item 7 of your statement you make a reference that you're currently being paid $17.51 per hour as a Level 5 Child Care Worker. Do you think that rate of pay is a reasonable rate of pay for the work you do?---No, I wouldn't consider it being reasonable.
PN606
Is that the award rate?---No, we have a certified agreement in place.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN607
Right. And do you know how much higher than the award rate of pay you are?---When it was certified I think it was six per cent.
PN608
Your statement goes on to speak about some formal training and also identifies at item 10 that your employer required you to undertake some courses and training, is that correct?---Yes.
PN609
Now, presumably these courses, if the employer asked you to do them, there was some form of recognition for that, was there, in the certified agreement, for example?---What do you mean, financially?
PN610
Yes?---No. No.
PN611
There is no recognition?---No. No, we undertake the training to improve or gain knowledge in areas that we're already doing the work. We don't get a financial benefit from undergoing training.
PN612
So is there any particular - I mean, were you involved in the negotiations for your enterprise agreement?---Yes.
PN613
Okay. So is there any reason that you - I mean, based on my calculations it's almost $2000 a year more than the award rate. Is there any reason for that?---Because our employer's think we probably should be paid better than what we are being paid under the award. They recognise that our workload has increased over the years and they also recognised that staff go beyond and above the call of duty as what the award states in their jobs.
PN614
And that wouldn't have included the training courses that they'd required you to do?---No, we consider that as professional development that increases both our development but also it gives back to the centre.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN615
Right, okay. So your enterprise agreement, does that contain a classification, structure and rates of pay that are similar to the application that the union has made?---No, it doesn't.
PN616
And why isn't that included in your enterprise agreement?---Because we don't have the resources to write down the - that would be - like the union has written, to put into a certified agreement. We're basically out there by ourselves when we go through an industrial process with very little knowledge and the only help we get is from the union to help us writing them.
PN617
But you do have an LK agreement, do you? Do you know what an LK agreement is?---No.
PN618
Okay, take that back. Did you negotiate your agreement with your employer or with the assistance of the union?---With some - with the assistance of the union but mostly with the employer.
PN619
And so could they have helped you put together job classification descriptions?---I think it would be very hard for our employer to change everything by themselves in such a small workplace. We've also - our employer are our parents and to expect them to do that amount of work would be a big expectation on people that are also working.
PN620
But the classification structure that's in the union's application is - that's already written?---Yes, but we've had input into that and there's been a bigger input that just the employment section that's in our centre.
PN621
So when did your certified agreement - when was that last varied?---It's just about to expire.
PN622
Just about to expire?---Yes. Next June, mid year I think it expires.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN623
And when was it first certified, as it is currently?---It would have been a year and a half ago probably. I can't remember off the top of my head.
PN624
Since the new - your statement goes on at item 18 to make claims about how you've recently lost a very good worker who took a position in the public service because the pay was significantly better, is that correct?---Yes.
PN625
And if I understand your statement correctly, you believe that she left the industry, even though she preferred to work - preferred to stay in child care but the money was better somewhere else?---Yes.
PN626
Yes. Well, I guess I'll put this question to you, do we really want that sort of person working in child care?---I think you lose a lot of people in child care because the money's so bad that - there's long hours and it's a very stressful job. Is she wants to buy a house in the future, she can't do it in the industry she's working in. There's no way at the moment that she could afford to buy a house and that was one of her main reasons for leaving, was financial. She could not afford to do things in her life in child care, so she left because of financial reasons and I don't honestly think she would have left, had it not been for financial gain.
PN627
All right. So for financial reasons she made a choice about what she wanted to do?---Not what she wanted to do but what, I think, she had to do for her own future. She wasn't benefiting financially from working in Children's Services so she needed, for herself, to be able to move on.
PN628
But clearly from her point of view, buying a house was more important than working in child care?---I don't think that's entirely true. If she could find a balance I think it would be perfect but at the moment there is no balance.
PN629
Have you had a look through the application that's currently before the Commission?---Yes.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN630
And as far as the qualification levels for a diploma qualified child care worker, how do you think that qualification compares with a person who has a four year teaching degree?---I don't know what's in the teaching degree so I don't think I'm overly able to answer. I - our jobs are very different to a teacher working in a school but there is an educational basis in what we do as well. But there is also a large care component in what we do, which teachers don't do.
PN631
I think the terminology that seems to be used and correct me if I'm wrong, is that child care is more developmental, whereas teaching is more educational? Is that correct?---I think there's a component of both in what we do. I think there's an education component but there's also a care component in what we do and we look at the child as a whole and we look at their development as a whole and schools don't necessarily do that. It's much more directed to one sort of area of education whereas ours is an education of the child as a whole.
PN632
Right. So do I understand you correctly when you say that you don't really have much knowledge of what's involved in a four year teaching degree?---I haven't done a teaching degree so I wouldn't.
PN633
You say at item 20 of your statement that there's currently - in the current classification structure that in your opinion there's virtually no incentive to upgrade qualifications because there's no more money at the end of the day. What do you actually mean by that?---At the moment you could - in the classification structure you could still be working as a - you could - what I was trying to say there, you could be a level 4 and be stuck for a very long period of time, unless there's movement through the centre. Gaining experience or qualifications didn't necessarily allow you to move up if there's not a position within the centre.
PN634
But you could apply for positions with other centres presumably?---You could.
PN635
And there is further education, isn't there, in early child care above a diploma?---Yes, to go into finishing the teaching qualifications there is.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN636
So there is a - what I'm saying is that there is a career path in child care?---Very limited career path. If you want to stay in the same centre and there's not - and level 4 doesn't leave and you finally gain that qualification, you're not going to be paid any better doing the same job is what I think I was trying to say.
PN637
So, if you've got a diploma qualification and you gain that after you've already received a certificate III qualification, that you're not going to automatically get a wage increase?---That's right.
PN638
Okay. Is there some reason why you should?---Well, you've gained a lot of skills and you're not going to sit there and do the same job with a different amount of knowledge. You increase your knowledge - I would expect that staff would increase their ability to do their job as well.
PN639
But this person who was employed in a position to, say, for example, assist a qualified person, right - - - ?---Yes.
PN640
- - - a person with maybe some experience in the industry or a certificate III, that person has been employed to do that job, haven't they?---Can you repeat that?
PN641
Well, a person who's employed at say a level 2 - - - ?---Yes.
PN642
- - - their job is to be a Level 2 Child Care Worker. So if they get a higher level of qualification, are you saying that you think they should be paid a higher rate of pay automatically?---I think they could be - yes, have some financial incentive to keep increasing their qualifications. They do bring those qualifications to the workplace.
PN643
But the job they were employed to do is still the same job that they had prior to the qualification?---Mm.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN644
So in 10 years in the industry you've obviously seen lots of things change, I mean, that's a considerable period of time in any industry these days. In terms of the conditions that you work under in your day-to-day activities with the children, have they improved at all? I mean, is the centre - is the environment that you work within, has it improved over the years?---For the staff, not considerably, no.
PN645
So it's - not considerably but - - - ?---No.
PN646
it has improved slightly or - - - ?---No, not really. It hasn't really change much at all from when I've started working in Children's Services to currently.
PN647
So has the licensing requirements on the centre changed, that you're aware on, in the last 10 years, only that you're aware of?---There was a change in the number of children in our toddler's room but other than that I don't think there's been considerable change in our licence in - - -
PN648
So that change in the numbers of children in your toddler's room, was that because of a licence variation - - - ?---Yes.
PN649
- - - or because there was a change in the licensing requirements?---Change in the licensing requirements.
PN650
And so do you, in your day to day duties, have you ever had to learn skills in utilising new pieces of equipment or anything?---We've probably had to increase our skills very much in the area of paper work. We are required to keep a lot more records than we used to be. We're also required to report a lot more to parents, consider different communication styles with parents. Our policy book when I first started probably would have been about four or five policies, it's probably now around 50 policies that are regularly updated. Generally everything has changed in the areas of paper work over the last 10 years.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN651
But the paper work that you say has changed, that only really reflects what's always been done, hasn't it?---I don't think we were required to have anywhere near as many policies as what we currently have.
PN652
But that's your policies but the policies evidently - withdraw that. A policy, you would create that and after that it would be done, wouldn't it?---No, it's updated every two years I think we're currently updating our policies.
PN653
So every two years you're updating your policies?---Two or three years we're updating them for accreditation.
PN654
That's a fair bit of time between updating policies, isn't it?---Not when you've got 50-odd to do.
PN655
Not when you've got 50 to do?---When you start at number one and work your way through every couple of years, it takes a long time. Not every policy is one or two pages either. Our health policy is probably about 10 pages long.
PN656
So in terms of your communication with parents and you were talking about paper work before and I'm just wondering, regarding observations, programming, communication with parents about what activities children are undergoing, where problems may arise and not arise, that sort of communication is something that's always occurred, isn't it?---Not to the extent it occurs now. We have to demonstrate that we communicate with parents in a range of ways so that each - we consider each family unique and we try to make sure that we get the information across to parents, whether they have time to talk to us at the end of the afternoon. They have end of - the children have semester summaries on their development which we didn't do 10 years ago, we also display information for parents on whiteboards daily, we give leaflets to parents, we have orientation books for children. So it doesn't matter how the parent of the family wants to communicate, there's a range of ways that they can access information about their child.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN657
Now, who actually requires you to produce semester summaries every quarter?---As part of accreditation you have to be showing to providing parents with information about their centre and about the child. And you also have to demonstrate that you are providing that information in different ways so that not all parents can have a 20 minute chat at the end of the day. So that's another way that we demonstrate that we're providing information to parents.
PN658
And you're only demonstrating then that you're doing all the things that would normally be inspected in a child care environment?---I don't think it was expected 10 years ago.
PN659
So, what, you didn't have policies and procedures 10 years ago - - - ?---I think a five, 10 minute chat at the end of the day with most parents was expected 10 years ago, I don't think the amount of written work that we do now, because of accreditation, was expected 10 years ago.
PN660
So do you think things have changed because of accreditation?---I think our workload has increased dramatically because of accreditation. It's an ongoing process that we're permanently evaluating what we do and bringing in new ways to communicate and adding policies and reviewing policies and everything else.
PN661
But, once again though, I bring you back to the point, isn't accreditation just a process of checking what you're actually supposed to have always been doing?---I don't think so.
PN662
MS BELLINO: I think it's been asked and answered.
PN663
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MALONEY
PN664
MR MALONEY: Ms Henderson, who operates the Acton Early Childhood Centre? Who's the employer?---Who's the employer? We have a parent body that's elected every September so we're run by a group of elected parents.
PN665
And do you and the director of the centre provide advice and assistance to that committee?---The director does directly have meetings with them once a month and also meets regularly with the president of the parent committee. We also have staff that go along once a month to the same meeting, yes, and we provide the policies are then put in front of the parent committee and we work together with them.
PN666
Do you know how long the Acton Early Childhood Centre's been operating for?---1970-something.
PN667
Okay. Paragraph 7, just clarify your hours. Your total weekly hours, are they eight hours of three days, 24 hours or is it 30 hours, because you say there that you've got - you're paid 17.51 per hour as a Child Care Worker Level 5, 18.38 per hour for six hours per week as an assistant director under your certified agreement. So are your total hours 24 or 30, I'm just not sure? Can I rephrase it?---Yes.
PN668
Is the six hours part of the 24 that you do?---Yes, yes.
PN669
Okay. You mentioned under paragraph 13 your experience at attending a course about leading your team, about employee selection and diversity. Do you do the recruitment and/or termination if required?---I generally am involved to some extent in the recruitment of staff. We haven't had to terminate anybody.
PN670
And just in relation to the certified agreement, you said you were involved in that process?---Yes.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON XXN MR MALONEY
PN671
And was there discussion regarding budgets and what was available under the budget or what was capable under the budget?---There is some discussion about what is in the budget and what is available to be spent. Yes. I guess, yes.
PN672
Thank you, I have nothing further.
PN673
PN674
MS BELLINO: Ms Henderson, in paragraph 18 of your statement you were asked about an employee who left to take another position. Can I ask you, did you think she was a good worker?---Yes, she was very good.
PN675
Was she of benefit to your centre?---Yes, a large benefit. She worked in our babies room, she had a very caring nature and a very lovely nature with very small children.
PN676
Thank you. You were asked questions about a level 2 worker who might undertake further studies such as the diploma and there would not be another position available to them and you answered about the skills that that worker might bring. Can you give some details about what skills a worker might have if they've undertaken a diploma but are only employed in a level 2 position?---Yes. Being able to step up is probably the biggest thing, actually having somebody that's qualified to step up into the - when the level 4 is away, in that they can administer the medications and do all those things and they've also got an education behind running a program. They also can bring assistance in helping develop a program with the level 4 in the room and you also, I think, learn a lot in the diploma about communicating with parents and - yes, just generally being more professional because you've undertaken another course.
**** STEPHANIE HENDERSON RXN MS BELLINO
PN677
Thank you. And you were asked a question about the environment at your centre or in child care and how it's changed over the last 10 years, I'm not sure of your answer, can you explain specifically whether you think the environment has changed over the last 10 years?---In regards to the children or the staff or - I'm not quite - - -
PN678
Well, start with the children?---With the children the environment's probably changed considerably. We seem to have gone from having just been very care based 10 years ago to running programs that encourage development in all areas for the children. It's also - we've had to increase our knowledge about health and hygiene for the children, safety practices, so all of the environment they're basically spending their days in has changed and become probably a much nicer place to be. And the staff have a better knowledge as well over the last 10 years I think.
PN679
Can you explain how?---I think with accreditation staff have been required to look at different areas that not everybody in child care was necessarily educated about. They've - yes. I'm lost.
PN680
But do you think the environment and the staff has changed?---I think it's more stressful than it used to be and it's a lot more professional than what it used to be. Yes.
PN681
Thank you, we've no further questions.
PN682
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you for your evidence, you're excused?---Pardon?
PN683
PN684
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Next witness?
PN685
PN686
MS BELLINO: Could you please state your full name and address?---It's Reesha Babetta Stefek and I'm at 86 Fox Road, Royalla.
PN687
And what's your current place of employment?---Woden Early Childhood Centre.
PN688
And what position are you employed in?---Centre Director.
PN689
Ms Stefek, have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---Yes.
PN690
Do you identify this as a copy of the statement that you have prepared?---Yes.
PN691
Have you made any changes to that statement?---Apart from the address, no.
PN692
Is that statement true and correct?---Yes, it is.
PN693
I tender the statement of Ms Stefek.
PN694
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you. I'll mark the statement exhibit UACT11.
PN695
MS BELLINO: We have no further questions.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XN MS BELLINO
PN696
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any cross-examination?
PN697
PN698
MR MORPHETT: Ms Stefek, in item 6 of your statement you talk about the fact that you have 93 children effectively I think enrolled at the centre but you're licensed for 61. You've only ever got 61 children in attendance per day, is that correct?---That's correct.
PN699
So, I put it to you that you really on a day-to-day basis you're still only dealing with 61 children. As I said to a few previous witnesses, the faces have changed but the numbers are still the same on a daily basis, is that correct?---Their numbers are, but their needs are different.
PN700
So, at item 8 of your statement, and I quote, "Our goal is to recruit workers with a minimum of a certificate III qualification and we don't employ any level 1 workers", is that correct?---That's right.
PN701
So, if a person came to you, for example, with 12 years experience as a child care worker would you consider a certificate III person over the top of a person who had that sort of experience?---Under the award they'd be classed as level 2 because they've got more than 12 months experience in the industry, so then I would weigh up the best person for the position.
PN702
So, you'd appoint on merit based on that fact?---Yes.
PN703
So, the fact that they have a certificate III wouldn't be taken into consideration?---No, but when I'm thinking of a level 1 it's no experience in the industry, and so then someone with a certificate III would be better over no-one - someone with no qualifications and no experience in the industry.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN704
Yes. No, I'm talking about a person that you would put in a Child Care Worker Level 2. That would be a person that - and I think you were saying that you wouldn't make any delineation between a person who had a lot of experience or a person who has a certificate III, is that correct?---That's right. That's right.
PN705
Okay. You say at point 10 of your statement, "I believe that child care workers should receive extra money for training and qualifications they achieve". Can you explain that to me? I mean, in terms of the qualifications that they receive - that they achieve, sorry?---I guess what I'm looking at is if I've got a person who has got, say, 12 years experience in the industry and doesn't have a certificate III, then I would actively encourage them to gain a qualification of a certificate III and pay them accordingly.
PN706
So, you wouldn't pay them a higher level of pay simply because they had more experience in the industry?---No, I wouldn't.
PN707
Okay. So, are you saying that if a person achieves a certain level of qualification they should be paid for having the qualification as opposed to the job that you've appointed them to do?---Well, I think when they gain their qualifications they take on extra roles anyway within the child care industry, and so therefore should be recognised and paid.
PN708
So, you're saying that a person who achieves a qualification should be paid for the qualification?---Yes, if they're doing the work of the qualification.
PN709
Right, okay, thank you. You mention at item 11 in your statement that you currently get $27.17 per hour as the Centre Director?---Mm.
PN710
Are you aware of the amount that you would normally be paid if you were a Centre Director under the application that has been put forward for the union?---The application, yes, I am aware that it's less.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN711
And the application by the union?---Mm.
PN712
It's less than you're currently being paid?---That's right.
PN713
Right. So, you're currently on the highest level of Child Care Director, is that right?---No, I'm on - yes, I'm on highest level plus a five per cent EBA. Our centre pays our staff five per cent above award.
PN714
Which gives you a gross amount of - I think you mentioned in your statement but I didn't write it down?---Well, the hourly rate is 27.17 and the gross amount is 1032.46 per week.
PN715
So, that's what you refer to currently?---That's right.
PN716
So, that would be in excess of the applications made by the union?---That's right.
PN717
Are all your other staff at the centre paid in excess of the application that's been made by the union?---No.
PN718
Well, why is that?---Because they're paid five per cent - they're paid five per cent above the award as it is currently.
PN719
Right. So, I think you mentioned in your statement too that you currently have an enterprise bargain agreement, is that correct?---That's right.
PN720
And when was that last renegotiated?---We started on it about two years ago, and it just went to the Industrial Commission on 16 December.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN721
Wow. Okay. Now, that agreement as it currently stands, does it contain the classification structure that is listed on the current application by the union?---No, we went with the old award because that's when we started it, it was with the old award.
PN722
So, did you upgrade the rates of pay to reflect what's in the - in the application?---No, because we didn't anticipate that - we're not pre-empting this Commission, we're just waiting, we're sitting on the old award until it changes.
PN723
Well, an enterprise agreement is something that happens at the workplace. I mean, that's up to you, it's not a matter of pre-empting anybody, is it?---Well, no, but our management committee had the old award structure in front of them and they based their EBA on that old award structure.
PN724
Right. So, if we look at the comparisons with current - I mean, you're in a senior position within the centre, aren't you, as the Director and Manager?---That's right.
PN725
Now, if we look at - do you have any knowledge of the qualifications required to achieve, like, a teaching qualification?---It's a four year course.
PN726
Four year university degree?---Mm.
PN727
Okay. Do you think it appropriate that a person with a diploma qualification, a two year tertiary qualification, should receive if this application is successful more money per week than a person who has a four year degree in childhood education?---Well, I think that they're totally different jobs, and I think child care is unique inasmuch as we're dealing with the very early ages of the children. So, I think that they have to be looked at separately, and I think that child care workers should be paid more than they are currently, and I think $16 for a level 4 who's programming for, you know, a large group of children and spending 36 hours with those children, I think isn't enough.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN728
Okay. But in terms of a teacher with a four year teaching degree who has been four years in the industry, do you think it appropriate that a person with a diploma, a two year tertiary course in child care, should be paid more than that person?---No, but maybe teaching needs to be paid more as well.
PN729
Of course, of course. You mentioned too in your statement that you get $27.17 an hour, as in your current position, but you also - you do some teaching at CIT I believe and you get paid there $53.13 an hour?---That's a casual rate, yes.
PN730
That's at a casual rate?---Mm.
PN731
Without adjusting for the casualness because I didn't pick that up out of your statement?---Okay.
PN732
As the Centre Director how many qualified people do you have to assist you in your day-to-day duties?---I have three diploma staff, and a preschool trained teacher.
PN733
Right. So, and - sorry, could you refresh me on your qualification?---Yes, I have a diploma in Children's Services, and I have a graduate certificate in Centre Management.
PN734
So, there'd be effectively three - four diploma people and one teacher at that site?---Including myself, yes.
PN735
Yes, including yourself?---Yes.
PN736
And that you're there to care for the balance of on a day-to-day basis 61 children in care?---Mm.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN737
When you're teaching at TAFE how many people are you instructing there?---A group - it depends on the size of the group. Sometimes 20 and as low as eight. I've taught a class of eight.
PN738
So, over the year would you have - do you have different classes - - - ?---Yes.
PN739
- - - or do you have just one group?---No, I have different classes, so I can teach the diploma or the certificate room, and so I see different - and it depends on how many classes I pick up each semester how many students I teach.
PN740
Okay. Now, presumably if you're teaching these people they're going to go out into the work force as diploma qualified people - - - ?---Or certificate.
PN741
- - - the majority of them, or certificate?---Yes.
PN742
So, they're going out into the work force with a qualification and you've participated in helping them achieve that. Do you feel a sense of responsibility in that teaching role?---Yes, I do. I also feel very supported within the CIT system because I have more experienced teachers and the head of department that I can go to if I need to.
PN743
You talk in your statement about how you feel that there's more responsibility involved in your role as the director of a centre as opposed to teaching, is that correct?---Yes, definitely.
PN744
So, if you're - and I put it to you this way - if you're a director of a centre, and from what you've said here, you have three other diploma people plus a teacher, a trained teacher, assisting you to care for 61 children, how can that be a more responsible role to take than actually dealing with teaching a large group of people who will go out completely unsupervised by you into the work force?---I think it's totally different. One, when I'm teaching, I'm teaching one
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
module, and it could be something that I'm really passionate about like playing measure, so I pass my passion on to the students. If the students don't cover a criteria which is very structured, then they're not yet competent and they have a chance to re-sit, and then it's a fail, and then it's up to another teacher to assess them. With my centre the bottom line is I make the decisions. If my level 4 isn't up to par for whatever reason, could be having a family crisis or anything, I have to know it, I have to be aware of it, and be on deck to support that person straight away, so, I see it as very, very different.
PN745
All right. So, you don't think it's important in the training of people when they go through CIT?---I do think it's important, but I don't think - I don't feel solely responsible for that. I feel very supported, and there is a very clear guideline to follow. At CIT I think that they're very different.
PN746
Taking you now to item 15 of your statement, you say that you support the union's objectives. I'm just wondering what you understand the union's objective to be in this application?---Yes. I think that they're trying to look at a career structure for child care workers so that they will stay in the child care industry. I think that what we're seeing at the moment is that people get to a level 2 and they feel that there's nowhere to go. If they do start training, then often it's their time outside that they're spending, and then trying to get a level 4 later on. So, I think that there's a really good career structure here, recognising them taking on extra training and things like that. I also like the three streams that they're offering, looking at family day care, looking at out of school hours care, and looking at centre based care.
PN747
So, the streaming too. Okay, just on those points, in terms of the career structure, do you think there's not a career structure in child care?---No, I don't really think there is at the moment, not the way it is.
PN748
So, a person who has a certificate III qualification, can't they go any further?---They can only if they take on additional studies, and up until the last 12 months that was usually done at CIT which meant that they had to enrol in night classes which meant that there was a lot more work involved. Now that Individual Solutions and people like that are coming to the staff they've made it a little bit more so that staff are more inclined to study.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN749
But what I'm getting to is that they can undertake further study, can't they, to achieve higher qualifications?---They can, yes.
PN750
And they could - - - ?---It's an expensive - it is very expensive for them to undertake training through CIT, particularly on the wages of a child care worker.
PN751
I put it to you that any training is expensive, isn't it?---Yes, I recognise that. I just think that the wages that we currently get within the industry make it that much harder.
PN752
Right. Okay. And you mention recognition of skills, and could you refresh my memory about what you actually meant by that? I think you referred to it earlier?---In what regard? Sort of - I'm not clear - - -
PN753
Well, you were saying that that was part of the objectives of the union, that you were - - - ?---Yes, as far as taking on any extra studies. Like, at our service as part of our EBA the level - we are, as I said, we only employ level 2s. They are expected to do observations and develop skills in that regard, and I think that we at our centre pay staff for that. I don't think all services recognise that and pay accordingly.
PN754
Are all Child Care Worker Level 2s supposed to take observations?---It's not part of their duties - it's not part of the award structure at the moment.
PN755
You sure about that?---No, not really. But the thing is, I know, from talking to my students, not all of them are expected to do that and not all of them are paid accordingly when they do do it.
PN756
I'd like to hand up a document if I could, an extract from the award.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN757
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Are you handing it to the witness?
PN758
MR MORPHETT: Yes. Would you like a copy?
PN759
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: If it's at all - - -
PN760
MR MORPHETT: It's only an extract from the award - - - ?
PN761
MS BELLINO: It's actually A1 of the union's submissions in book 1.
PN762
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Yes. I'm just not sure where you're going with this though. If you're asking the witness a question on award interpretation, that's not an appropriate question to ask the witness.
PN763
MR MORPHETT: No, I'm just asking her for clarification on a specific point on the actual job descriptor.
PN764
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Right. But bear in mind, you can't ask the witness for legal opinions.
PN765
MR MORPHETT: No.
PN766
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Okay.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN767
MR MORPHETT: Can I just take you to paragraph 5.1.1(d) which is under the classification structure under the current award, Child Care Worker Level 2?---Okay, how I read it is it's - be responsible for reporting observation of the individual children or groups for programming. We actually - when we talk about it we talk about written observations that are actually then read by parents. So when you're reporting them, you could be reporting them to your level 4. So I could tell a level 4, "I have concerns about this child's gross motor". That level 4 is then responsible for actually recording that and, if necessary, dealing with the parents and instructing parents on, perhaps, additional help that they might need. So my interpretation of reporting an actual written is different.
PN768
Right. But you could have a written report, couldn't you?---Observation, yes.
PN769
Yes?---And we require our level 4s to take - to do - sorry, our level 2s, to do written observations.
PN770
Right, okay. You also spoke in terms of the objectives of the union, the streaming of - like the streaming. Isn't that just - the current award currently has one stream and it's simply breaking that up into three streams?---No, I don't think it addresses the different types of services that are provided by them. Like the Family Day Care Coordination Team aren't directly involved with children. They support the staff to provide - their staff, to provide quality care. So I think that that's different. And I look at out of school hours care differently because it's such a short term care, there isn't that involvement that centre-based care is, with children. We're dealing with children - some of our children are in our care for at least nine hours a day, five days a week, from - we take them from birth. We've had someone from two weeks and we really take that responsibility very seriously. So centre-based care is very different I think.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN771
Okay. At item 15 of your statement - sorry, I've already covered that, withdraw that. At item 16 of your statement you say that you believe that paying people properly means that you might get quality of applicant who sees child care as their profession of choice. Is that correct?---Yes. I do believe that. I think that in my experience, I've been the centre director at Woden Early Childhood Centre now for nine years and I've been with that centre for nearly 13 and I think that - that we've seen people go because they can't afford to stay as child care workers, they just can't afford it. So I think that if we paid them and they're happy working with us, then they stay with us. People have been reluctant to leave. I'm losing two staff members at the moment because they can't afford to live, on their own, on the wages we provide and we pay five per cent above award. So I think that - - -
PN772
That's the point I think I take you back to, Ms Stefek, I mean, you're currently paying five per cent above the award anyway and you still can't get people to stay?---Well, the thing is, we advertise above award but unfortunately child care people aren't go-getters, they're secure - they don't do it for the money so much as they do it for what they believe in with the children. They do it for the children. So if they're in a service and they're providing quality care for children, they won't go just for the money whereas if we as an industry, blanket, decent wages will keep good people within that industry.
PN773
So you're saying then that you support the application but only if it applies to everybody? Is that right?---For all child care workers, yes.
PN774
So you're not just prepared to increase the wages at your centre to assist workers who are coming and working with you because you want to recognise their skill?---No, I honestly believe that if we want - I'm doing this for the profession, not just for my centre and I think that we, as a society, need people who are passionate about children, working with children. And the only way to do that is to pay them more.
PN775
So it seems to me that you're saying in your statement that if you pay people more money you'll therefore create a passion for child care, is that right?---No, you will keep the passionate people in it, I believe.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN776
Right. So the passionate people go somewhere else, is that right, at the moment?---Yes. A lot of them do, yes, they leave child care.
PN777
Okay. Item 17 you say that, and I'll quote you here, "absolutely believe that the workers I have in my centre deserve more money for attaining qualifications". Now, in your certified agreement, do you make any reference to payment to people for attaining qualifications?---We actually pay for their training within our EBA so that we actually encourage - - -
PN778
No, my question was about whether you pay them once they have a qualification?---We have got currently staff who are - I'm just trying to think. We've got a level 4 who is currently completing her training through CIT and we pay her at the higher rate, at award, rather than at what her qualifications are.
PN779
Okay, so when she achieves her qualification, will you increase her pay?---No, because we're currently doing that plus paying her training as well.
PN780
Right, so you're offsetting it against the training, is that correct?---No. What I'm saying is that that person's worked within our service, they've proven themselves, we've actively paid them more even though they don't have that qualification already plus we pay for their training.
PN781
All right. I beg your indulgence for a moment, just some extra points that have already been covered. Ms Stefek, you made reference at item 28 of your statement that - you speak about how your staff at the centre recently had a weekend sleepover for 22 children which was unpaid. Why was that unpaid?---They chose to do that to build up relationships with our parents.
PN782
Okay?---Our families, get to know them on a more social level.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN783
Right. So - and so you didn't ask your staff to do it, they just volunteered to do it?---Yes.
PN784
And did you charge the parents anything for it?---The parents were charged for it, yes.
PN785
And why were they charged if you weren't paying the staff anything?---We actually decided to use that money to put towards a programming room so we can actually build a programming room, so staff will have a room where they can spend time away from the children, in quiet, to program for those children.
PN786
Right. So effectively then what you've done is you've - the staff haven't been paid but you've used it as a fund raising exercise?---Staff volunteered their time, yes.
PN787
Okay?---No one had to do it. And I stayed on as director as the ultimate - person with the ultimate responsibility for that.
PN788
I take you now to item 30, it's the last paragraph in your statement and you say the skill levels required by workers and the level of responsibility required, that's changed in the child care industry. How has that responsibility of a child care worker changed?---When I first started at the centre 13 years ago it was common practice for a program to be displayed that didn't actually relate to any observations or anything like that, it was based on children's interests. Now, we actually base it on written observations. Staff program for each child who attends more than two days a week at our centre and we do that by looking at their skills, their strengths/weaknesses, things like that, their interests and we, from that, gain information, program for that accordingly and children will have often four or five, sometimes more, depending on their needs, programmed activities. So there is a lot of work just based on the program. Accreditation has brought a lot of extra work for the child care field. We're formalising things that we haven't needed to formalise before. We have to document it now with accreditation. Everything has to be sourced. So you have to go back. So it's not just how your centre does it, it actually has to be sourced on why you do things like that. So there is a lot more work involved.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN789
Okay. So I'll just take you back to my question where I was talking about responsibility, how has the responsibility increased? Because, I mean, this is - - - ?---Right, okay - - -
PN790
- - - good information - - - ?--- - - - so our accountability, I think - that's what I meant. Our responsibility. I think it's clearer the role we play in children's lives, the responsibility that, like I said, we didn't program for individual needs before. That is a responsibility because children then are - we're ahead of the developmental curve when they're going to school. We know if there's weaknesses that the school needs to address. Children are being referred to Children's Services, CHADS, things of that - - -
PN791
So who puts that responsibility on you?---Society.
PN792
Society?---They expect it of us, I think.
PN793
And when did you come to that conclusion?---As the demand grew and grew. As a professionalism in the industry. I don't think - when I joined 13 years ago, we weren't a professionally united front, now we are. We're trying to sell what we do to society and how important our role is.
PN794
My question is, how did you work out that society requires that of you?---The demands, parent demands. The accreditation - - -
PN795
Your 61 parents or your 93 parents, sorry?---That's over - well, that's currently enrolled. That's not over a year and that's not over the 13 years that I've been at the centre. So if you think about it from that point of view. Up until last year we offered sessional care so we were having children in for just five hours a day. So their needs still have to be met.
PN796
Since you've been involved in child care for so long, how has the environment in a child care centre, how has that changed over the years?---We've become more - - -
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN797
And by environment, I'm talking about the physical environment that you work in?---I could only say from my centre. We've become better resourced, that's a priority. We've become more aware of what toys are better developmentally for children than we were in the past. But apart from that, our environment hasn't changed very much. I'm very fortunate that I work at a community based centre who put their surplus back into the centre so we've put up a new kitchen. But up till that, our centre's 17 years old and that was - we've just put in a new kitchen and it was - and we've been providing meals for five years. So we've become, you know - and that's another thing that parents - - -
PN798
So the environment's improved?---Yes, but that - - -
PN799
The working environment?---Yes.
PN800
And has there been any technological change, have you been required to learn how to utilise different pieces of equipment or new systems, you know, computers?---Yes, computers are active in our - our staff use computers for their programming. Almost - - -
PN801
That would, I assume, be word processing, is that correct?---That's right. Our level 4s use the internet for various things. It might just be from programming ideas down to concerns about a child's developmental delays, they might follow that up. A child with a diagnosis that they want to - you know, we have a Down's Syndrome child so we wanted to meet his needs more clearly so we use the internet as a tool.
PN802
All right. So that's accessing these kind of tools to be able to get that sort of information?---Mm.
PN803
Okay. And child to staff ratios, has that changed over the years?---Yes, it has.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MORPHETT
PN804
Yes. And was that an increase or a decrease in the child to staff ratios?---It was a slight decrease.
PN805
And what was the slight decrease, do you recall?---We used to be - the age break up was totally different so now it's under threes, it's one to five and in the over threes it's one to 11. Prior to that it was a little bit mixed and depending on the age group it depended on your ratios. So we've actually employed more staff but with that came supporting them staff, the level 4s then had to take on extra responsibility.
PN806
If my memory serves me correctly it used to be three different break up levels instead of two, is that correct?---From memory, probably, yes.
PN807
Your memory is probably as sketchy as mine so don't worry about that?---I mean, all I can remember is from mine because each centre is different because it's the size of the room dictates the amount of children and then that dictates how many staff you actually have.
PN808
So, when we get back to it there is actually more staff employed now in child care than - in a child care centre to cater for the needs of the same number of children than there were say, for example, ten years ago?---Yes.
PN809
PN810
MR MALONEY: Ms Stefek, yours is a community centre?---Yes, it is.
PN811
And by committee a management?---Yes.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MALONEY
PN812
And I expect you to be the director and manager of that centre?---That's right, yes.
PN813
Do you know if your centre charges the same level of fees to your parents as other centres in your locality?---No, it's different. We're actually under quite a few of the centres within our area and then there are some that are a little bit less than us. We're probably middle of the range.
PN814
Now, can you help me out with your staffing?---Yes.
PN815
You said there's yourself and three other diploma staff and you had one preschool trained teacher?---That's right.
PN816
The three diploma staff they are all at the same level under the award?---I think one is paid at one year in the industry and all the rest are paid at level 4, yes. So, if you don't look at it from on commencement one year and two years in the industry then yes, they're all paid as level 4s.
PN817
And is that the sum total of your staffing?---And then our level 2s.
PN818
How many of those have you got?---In total, well, we have 11 and some of those are part time and some of those are full time level 2.
PN819
11 level 2s?---Yes.
PN820
Presumably they job share between groups?---Not between groups. I have two floaters and then I have four part time people who - one works 8 to 1 and one works 1 to 6 and then another one works 8.30 to 1.30 and then 12.30 to 5.30 so they job share that way.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MALONEY
PN821
I don't want to spend too much time on it but in your discussions with your management committee about your certified agreement, your new one, did you go and bat for your staff and say, "Well, I think they're worth more than 5 per cent. Here's what they're worth"?---No. No, we're very fortunate. Our management committee actually came up with that figure and we were really pleased. We didn't expect to get that much. We get other things such as one week's multi-purpose leave that we can take which is part of our sick leave so we get extra conditions other than the 5 per cent as well.
PN822
Now, you mention in your statement, at paragraph 18, one of your students regularly tells you there'd be more money working at Woollies stacking shelves. Would you accept that different industries and different organisations have different rates of pay and conditions, a whole variety of conditions?---I do but I think the role we have caring for children should be recognised and paid for.
PN823
Would you also accept you've got to compare apples with apples?---Yes, but somewhere along the line we have to say that it isn't fair that someone who stacks shelves should get paid more than someone who's got the care of children and in one of our groups we've got 17 children from two and a half to three and a half and, you know, they're getting paid less. That's what I think and that's what I'm saying.
PN824
That's without the benefit of doing a complete analysis or comparison of when they do the work, how they do it, what other conditions might apply?---I still don't believe that we should be paid less in the role that we do as caring for the children who are the future of Australia.
PN825
You talk about interaction with parents at paragraphs 26 and 27?---Yes.
PN826
You mention children from non-English speaking backgrounds. At your length of time at your centre have you always had children from various ethnic backgrounds?---We do. Because we're under the auspices of the CIT. We're the CIT Southside Child Care Centre so a lot of the students are learning English at the CIT so they use our service.
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK XXN MR MALONEY
PN827
And you instance at paragraph 27 parents crying in the car park?---Yes.
PN828
It's always an emotional time to leave your child somewhere?---Yes.
PN829
You've experienced that over the years?---I have, yes.\
PN830
Finally, you made a comment in response to a question from Mr Morphett that especially in relation to responsibilities and I think the words you said were that, "We are formalising things we never had to before?---That's right. There was never a demand for it previously and so now - - -
PN831
Sorry, can I just stop you there?---Sorry.
PN832
There was never a demand for formalisation but you were doing those things before, weren't you?---Yes, but it takes so much time to formalise what you do because so much of what we do is innate and so to formalise that takes so much. We have to actually look at every step that we take so - - -
PN833
So, formalisation relates to, for example, medication, food handling, observations, reporting to parents, putting the program on the wall so that the parents can see it at the beginning and the end of the day etcetera. Those types of things?---Yes, at least, yes.
PN834
Nothing further, thank you.
PN835
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Is there any re-examination ?
PN836
**** REESHA BABETTA STEFEK RXN MS BELLINO
PN837
MS BELLINO: You were asked a question about paragraph 6 in your statement which is in relation to the 93 children you might have in each week given though you're licensed for 61?---Yes.
PN838
You made a comment but didn't finish it and you said that the needs are different. Can I ask you what you meant?---Well, if our centre was licensed for 61 children and we had 61 full time children we would be able to meet their needs far more easily than what we do with the 93 children. We're seeing a third more and so what we're doing is their personalities come into play, their needs come to play and all those sort of things. So, a child who attends one day a week we have to cater for that child and they're not in the group. They have to be brought back into the group each and their needs are so different so we're thinking about everybody all the time.
PN839
Thank you, that is all.
PN840
PN841
PN842
MS BELLINO: Can you state your full name and address, please?---My name is Joanne Elizabeth Davies and I live 3 of 10 Wilkins Street in Mawson.
PN843
What's your current place of employment?---At the moment I work at Woden Early Childhood Centre.
PN844
And what position are you currently employed in?---I run Introduction to Preschool room there.
PN845
Have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN846
Have a look at this and identify that this is a copy of a statement you've prepared?---Thank you. Yes.
PN847
Has their been any changes to your statement?---No changes have been made.
PN848
And is your statement true and correct?---Yes, it is true and correct.
PN849
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I will mark this statement of Joanne Davies as exhibit UACT12.
PN850
**** JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES XXN MR MORPHETT
PN851
MR MORPHETT: Ms Davies, your statement currently says that you've got a certificate III qualification you are studying for, is that correct, or have you completed it?---I have one class left to complete in my diploma studies but yes, I have completed my certificate III.
PN852
And then after you have completed that one unit then you will have a diploma?---Yes, I will have a diploma.
PN853
And you currently hold a level 4 position at the Woden Early Childhood Centre?---Yes, I do.
PN854
And that's normally a qualified position?---Yes, it is normally a qualified position.
PN855
Has the centre got a variation from licensing?---Yes, we have an exemption from licensing.
PN856
So the duties that you are performing are the same duties as would normally be performed by a Level 4 Child Care Worker?---Yes.
PN857
So, the duties that you listed in your statement, I think are listed in item 5 of your statement. They are, to the best of your knowledge, normally the duties that are carried out by a Level 4 Child Care Worker?---Yes, they are.
PN858
Item 10 of your statement you say the director, together with a centre management committee chose to give you a position regardless of your qualifications?---Yes.
PN859
Now, surely that would have only been if they'd been able to get a variation from licensing?---Yes, they knew that - well, we applied for a variation once before they offered me the position.
**** JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES XXN MR MORPHETT
PN860
Okay, so they applied for it?---Yes, they did, to my knowledge anyway.
PN861
Item 14 of your statement you talk about your early work as a Level 2 Child Care Worker at Woden and you say, "I was undertaking duties as assistant and programming floater. Both of these positions record observation, plan, appropriate developmental experiences for children. I had observed them, assistant room leader with the evaluation of these observations in a weekly program". Now, are these normally the duties to be carried out by a Level 2 Child Care Worker?---In our centre we ask that all level 2s record observations for the room leaders.
PN862
And you're aware if there's any requirement under the award for Level 2 Child Care Workers to undertake those sorts of duties?---Not that I'm aware of, no. I think it is within our centre's policy that's what happens.
PN863
So, you can't actually say what's in the award to the best of your knowledge? You don't know?---Not at the moment.
PN864
You have been working in the child care industry for a reasonable period of time. Can you tell us about the conditions that you work under, the terms of your physical conditions and your environmental work. You know, have they changed over the years that you've been involved in child care?---With our centre we try and keep our standards as high as possible so if there's any changes that need to be made to the environment to help the stress levels of the staff then they get changed to meet our needs but I am not really sure what you're asking.
PN865
Well, what I was asking about is the environment that you work in, like for example, if a person came in here to work, you know, this would be their working environment and so your working environment has it changed? Has it improved or is it the same or has it got worse?---As I say our centre has always maintained high standards so we continue to maintain those standards in everything we do.
**** JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES XXN MR MORPHETT
PN866
This Level 4 Child Care Worker, are you required to be responsible for any other staff in your area?---Both the two part time staff members that work under me and my assistant both answer to me, and the director, and I've had some staff previously who have been untrained who I have had to supervise as well.
PN867
So, how many children are you caring for in your room?---In my room there's currently about 28 children that come across a week.
PN868
So, currently with you and the two qualifieds, are they?---The two people - the three staff members that work under me all have certificate IIIs in child care so there's - yes.
PN869
And that's in accordance with the requirements under licensing for that size room, isn't it?---Yes.
PN870
You've only been involved for a short period of time. Are you aware that the staff to child ratio has changed at any point in time in the centre?---The time when I've been in the centre it hasn't changed but I am not aware of it previous to this.
PN871
Item 11 of your statement you outline a number of different courses that you've taken. There's extra curricular training, I believe, is that the case? Have they been courses that you've undertaken in addition to your normal training?---Yes, they are. Our centre office allows us to do the training that we wish and so all bar the protective behaviours class which is actually part of the certificate training, the rest of them have all been outside my diploma.
PN872
And is there any requirement by your employer to undertake those courses?---No, we choose to do them ourselves. If my director asks me to undergo a course then I undergo it but other than that it's our choice.
**** JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES XXN MR MORPHETT
PN873
And you've been undertaking these various courses from '98 through to 2003?---Yes.
PN874
And presumably you would keep undertaking courses as they arose, that you had interest in?---Yes. If it interests me then I undergo it.
PN875
All right. Has Woden Early Childhood Centre - do you have an enterprise agreement in place at that centre?---Yes, we are under enterprise agreement.
PN876
And when was that last renegotiated?---It's just finished being - it's just gone towards Industrial Relations this week I think.
PN877
So has it - do you know if it's been certified or - - - ?---Yes, I think it has.
PN878
So presumably you would have dealt with the classification levels and rates of pay in that agreement?---Yes.
PN879
And are those rates of pay and the classification descriptions, are they the same as the union's application that's before the Commission?---No, they under the - they're beneath what the union is asking for now.
PN880
But you are still supporting the application by the union?---Yes, I am.
PN881
Okay. Don't you think it would be a bit odd if you believed that the wage increases were warranted to not try and include those in your enterprise agreement?---The - what the union is putting forward wasn't actually - we didn't know of it when we were going for our enterprise bargaining so we weren't aware that this would be happening which is why we asked for what we did in our own bargaining.
**** JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES XXN MR MORPHETT
PN882
Right, so when did - when were you doing your bargaining?---It would have started mid-2001, I think.
PN883
Right through to now?---Or 2002.
PN884
Right through to now?---Yes, no, it would have been 2002.
PN885
2002?---Sorry.
PN886
Through to - - - ?---Now.
PN887
- - - reasonably - - - ?---Yes.
PN888
So that pretty much covers the period of time that this application's been before the Commission?---It's for a three year period.
PN889
Right, okay. The agreement's for a three year period?---A three year period, yes.
PN890
Thank you, nothing further.
PN891
PN892
MR MALONEY: Ms Davies, you've progressed from, as you say in your statement, from a casual relief Level 2 Child Care Worker?---Yes.
**** JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES XXN MR MALONEY
PN893
To now a Level 4 Room Leader and do you have any ideas or views as to where you see yourself progressing from here?---At this stage I'm more than happy to continue doing the room leader position. I have spent time with my director undergoing policies and administration work and I would like to continue with that avenue as well. So - - -
PN894
And are there other positions in your centre that you could actually move to or progress upwards to?---There is an assistant director's position but someone currently fills that and I don't see that, until I am fully qualified with my diploma, that I would actually be able to continue into that position, until then.
PN895
Now, you say your group of children are two and a half to three and a half years. Is the size of your group 23 or 28 children?---I have 28 children in my room, the reason it has 23 in there is that's how many children I observe over a month period.
PN896
So what happens to the other five?---It is a centre policy that children who only attend one day a week aren't observed. It's just that they're not there for a long enough period to observe them so we do check lists on them throughout the year instead.
PN897
And at paragraph 16 of your statement, you refer there to a program, Applied Child Development, is that part of your diploma studies?---Yes, it is.
PN898
I have nothing further, thank you.
PN899
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination?
PN900
MS BELLINO: No re-examination.
**** JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES XXN MR MALONEY
PN901
MR MORPHETT: No.
PN902
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Davies, you're excused?---Thank you.
PN903
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Next witness please.
PN904
PN905
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---Nina Bukvic. 10 Birrell Street, Page, Belconnen.
PN906
Thank you. And what's your current place of employment?---Reid Early Childhood Centre.
PN907
And what position are you employed in?---I'm employed as a permanent level 2 but I'm a level 3 on the contract at the moment, full time.
PN908
Ms Bukvic, have you prepared a written statement for today?---Yes.
PN909
Do you identify this statement as the one that you have prepared?---Yes.
PN910
Have there been any changes to the statement?---No, except that I'm on the contract level 3, it's not as though I'm permanent - - -
PN911
And is your statement true and correct?---Yes, it's true and correct.
PN912
Thank you. I tender that.
PN913
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Mr Bukvic's statement is exhibit UACT13.
PN914
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Cross-examination?
**** NINA BUKVIC XN MS BELLINO
PN915
PN916
MS WILSON: You say you're a contract level 3?---Yes.
PN917
What does that actually involve? Would you like to explain?---Yes. I would like to do that. At the moment I'm a running group of - because there's a big preschool room and there's a transition which means there's the children from three to four years of age and the bigger group is from four and five. And I'm the leader of the three to four years of age group which means I program and I do observations. I'm responsible for the 11 children every day but I've got 18 children altogether.
PN918
And do you work under the supervision of a level 4?---Yes, she works in the other room, yes.
PN919
And how long have you been doing the contract level 3?---Level 3, maybe for the past month.
PN920
And previous to doing the contract level 3, you were a level 2?---Yes, level 2.
PN921
And you're part way through your diploma, is that correct?---Yes.
PN922
As the level 2, you actually state part of your duties was programming?---Yes.
PN923
Are you undertaking full programming yourself or are you assisting in the programming?---There was - there were an activity for each day because I had five - I had seven children to do observations on so about two children a day, depends, sometimes one and I would program for them.
**** NINA BUKVIC XXN MS WILSON
PN924
Without the - - - ?---With, yes - - -
PN925
- - - assistance of the - - - ?--- - - - yes, I was assisting, yes, but that was just part of my - - -
PN926
And now you do programming on your own - - - ?---Yes.
PN927
- - - completely?---Yes, I do. Not completely, I still have assistance and a little help from level 4 but I've got 18 children I'm responsible - that I do observations for and that I'm responsible for every day.
PN928
Okay. With the Child Care Worker Level 3, under the award there's a requirement you hold a TAFE Child Care certificate. Because you haven't been in the industry that long, I'm assuming you don't hold that certificate. On what basis can you be employed as a level 3 without the certificate?---I'm an acting level 3 and I - can you just, I don't understand.
PN929
There's a certificate, a child care certificate, referred to as triple C and under the award you are actually required to hold that certificate to act or to be a level 3. Do you have that certificate?---Because - well, you get it - we don't actually get a certificate but when you finish the diploma you get a diploma in the end. So you do classes and when you finish the diploma you get the diploma, you don't get any certificates before your diploma.
PN930
I might just clarify. You've done a certificate III and your part way through the diploma and are they the only qualifications that you are part way through or have completed?---Yes.
PN931
Okay. I note - I guess we've still got your affidavit from when you were a level 2 - - - ?---Yes.
**** NINA BUKVIC XXN MS WILSON
PN932
- - - so a lot of my questions were going to be on that. I note that you state that, in paragraph 17, that you act as the leader of the room when the team leader goes home. Were you paid acting up, additional wages for - - - ?---No, just because I've done my studies in my room as the level 2, I was there - by the licensing, if the leader is not there one day, level 2s can run the group and I was usually the one picked because of my studies that I've done of the - because we had another level 2 that wasn't qualified and because I knew the most, by going to school, I was the one who was picked to be responsible for that day.
PN933
That was for one day a week?---Yes, it was just, yes, one day, yes.
PN934
Is that a planned day?---It wasn't a planned day.
PN935
I mean, you've written in your statement that's if they're sick?---If they're sick and also when they do their programming day in the afternoon. Let's say that I work every Wednesday from one and I usually work from one to six and then I would be there to lead the group for that period.
PN936
So was there an occasion if they were sick for five days, were you the only one that could actually fill that role?---It was never five days but if they was then I'd probably be - I was studying diploma, I'd probably then be paid as an acting level 4, but it was never five days, it was just one or two days or one afternoon.
PN937
So you're not aware if they actually made any allowance for - if, say, the team leader was off sick for a long period of time who would actually - - - ?---Then I would - by the licensing I wouldn't be allowed to be running the group, that room, as the level 2, it would probably have to be an acting - a level 4.
PN938
I've got no further questions.
**** NINA BUKVIC XXN MS WILSON
PN939
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Can I just interrupt and clarify an answer you gave. Have you got a certificate III qualification?---You don't - we don't - because I'm studying straight to the diploma, they don't give us a certificate. Like you go to school and you do classes and when you're finished with the class you get a diploma.
PN940
So at the moment you have no qualifications for being - - - ?---Yes, I'm studying, I'm halfway through the diploma.
PN941
Yes, thank you.
PN942
MS WILSON: I might just clarify. So you haven't done a certificate III?---We don't do that. If you go to CIT and you want to study diploma, then you go straight to diploma, you don't do any certificate IIIs before that.
PN943
Okay. So am I mistaken, before when I asked were you doing the certificate III and the diploma I thought your answer was yes, that you are currently - - - ?---Currently because I probably might have a certificate III, I'm probably finished it but they don't give you the certificate III in your hand, they just give you the diploma in the end.
PN944
PN945
MR MORPHETT: Sorry, I've just got one quick question. Do you know if - has the centre sought to get a variation from Licensing for you to be acting in this position?---I think so, yes.
PN946
You think so but you don't know?---Well, they would have to do it, they would have to do it, yes, if I was going to be - - -
**** NINA BUKVIC XXN MR MORPHETT
PN947
Okay. So to the best of your knowledge they would have to?---They would have to do it otherwise it wouldn't be - it wouldn't be allowed to happen I think.
PN948
And when do you anticipate that you'll be finished your qualification?---When I - probably the end of the year I will have most - maybe I'll have one or two pracs, I'll finish after that.
PN949
Thank you very much.
PN950
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination?
PN951
MS BELLINO: No, there's no re-examination.
PN952
PN953
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Next witness?
PN954
MS BELLINO: Your Honour, our next witness is about 10 minutes away so it might be a good time to call Ms Stubbs.
PN955
MS BELLINO: Would you please state your full name and address?---Lynda Stubbs, 58 Pritchard Street, Yass, New South Wales.
PN956
What's your current place of employment?---The Liquor Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union, ACT Branch.
PN957
And what position are you employed in?---A child care organiser.
PN958
Ms Stubbs, have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---I have.
PN959
Do you identify this as a copy of that statement?---Yes.
PN960
Do you have any changes to the statement?---No, but I'd like to clarify paragraph 43 of my statement where we talk about the streams that we did in our application.
PN961
I might get to that after I get your statement tendered?---Okay.
PN962
Is your statement true and correct?---Yes other than paragraph 43, sorry.
PN963
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I will mark that statement at exhibit UACT14.
PN964
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Do you want to ask a question about paragraph 43?
**** LYNDA STUBBS XN MS BELLINO
PN965
MS BELLINO: Yes, I do.
PN966
You mentioned that you wanted to clarify part of paragraph 43?---Yes. When we initially developed the streams we had different levels in the school aged care than we do and what we've just recently tendered. After we received the employer's response we went back to our members in school aged care to ask about the issue in terms of team leaders not being included and we discussed the fact that licensing regulations in 2005 will mean that there will be team leaders in school aged care that aren't currently that sort of classification so we decided to change that so it would be right for 2005 so that's why we've actually done that. But our members wanted the three streams. They were very keen to have that so that was what was said there but has changed now.
PN967
Thank you. I have no further questions.
PN968
PN969
MR MORPHETT: Ms Stubbs, you've been in the child care industry forever?---It feels like it.
PN970
It seemed like that at times. Your current qualifications, as I understand it, in terms of the child care qualifications is associate diploma of Social Sciences?---That's right, yes.
PN971
And listed in your witness statement are other courses that you've undertaken so did you undertake those courses because of where you work in child care?---Yes. Except for the union organiser one obviously but that was as a union organiser.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN972
Was that a decision that you made in terms of acquiring extra skills?---They were courses that were offered by my employer for me to attend. Some of them would have been - I would have been asked to attend some. It was my choice whether I wished to go to them or not but all of them are paid for by my employer.
PN973
You identify item 17 of your statement and in about 2000 members started to raise a number of issues concerning - in relation to how child care facilities were running and that obviously is the commencement of that campaign period, is that correct?---That's right.
PN974
You go on to talk about how in 1990 that your members highlighted to the union the seriousness of problems such as recruiting newly qualified workers into the industry. Stress has been one of the major problems, new workers found the wages to low to sustain work in child care. I understand that from your statement that this brought around the original development of the survey which was sent out to members seeking information, is that correct?---That's right, yes.
PN975
And this all happened around 2000 - when it all started?---2001.
PN976
2001, that's when the survey went out?---The survey, yes.
PN977
Were you aware at that time of any other applications or any other matters the LHMU was dealing with in terms of child care awards in 2001?---Not off the top of my head, no.
PN978
So you weren't aware of any that were happening?---No. There may have been but I just don't remember.
PN979
You say in your statement that you conducted this survey which has been attached - it was one of the attachments that was sent out?---Yes.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN980
And I believe it's at tab A4 of your statement?---Yes.
PN981
In the survey you asked people, you know, what sector they were involved in the child care industry, what their current qualifications are, questions about the award title, did they want the name or did they want a different name, preference of employment, what sort of titles they want and the suggestions about titles they may prefer, you know, like even to the sectors like centre based school aged care, family day care, etcetera and thanked people for completing the document when they sent it back. I am just wondering from that information how you then developed the application that is currently before the Commission?---Well, it became apparent from that survey that members in centre based care weren't happy with the titled in the award. We'd also known for a number of years that the other stream, school aged care workers and the family daycare stream weren't very happy about the fact that the award seemed to be very centre based and focussed on centres and not on their particular sectors so that was why we looked at developing the three streams and in terms of the titles, early childhood education had come out very clearly as the preferred titled for centre based care but wasn't deemed appropriate for school aged care. They very much came in favour of school aged care worker obviously and family daycare preferred the titled that they currently had. So, when we looked at - looking at the classification structure we started to separate it into those three sectors which also suited licensed conditions. In terms of the pay increase a lot of the comments that came back were about workers feeling that they weren't valued in society, that they were not seen as professionals. Back in 2001 we had a lot of comments about society seeing them as babysitters and - - -
PN982
So, you've gone through an extended process in trying to gather that information to develop what is before the Commission today?---That's right, yes.
PN983
At item 21 of your statement you talk about how a child care professional has to understand a child's developmental level to provide optimum environment for them to foster this development?---Sorry, what paragraph was that?
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN984
Sorry, item 29 of your statement. Do you have it?---Yes.
PN985
"To understand a child's developmental level to provide optimum environment for them to foster this development"?---It's not 29.
PN986
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Which paragraph do you have?
PN987
MR MORPHETT: I am sorry, I had 29.
PN988
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: It is 39.
PN989
MR MORPHETT: 39?---Yes.
PN990
In item 39 you talk about how a child care professional has to understand a child's development level to provide optimum environment for them to foster this development and they must be able to assess where each child is up to socially, emotionally, intellectually and physically and what needs to be done to promote all areas of development"?---Yes.
PN991
Now, that's correct, isn't it, it's in your statement?---Yes.
PN992
Well, aren't those normally the duties that would be undertaken by qualified child care workers?---Yes, but they're also now, I believe, being undertaken by the level 2 workers.
PN993
So, does that mean that these are newly developed skills or has this always been expected of child care worker?---It's always been expected.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN994
So they've always needed to carry out these sorts of duties in a child care environment?---Yes, but and a theory over the last number of years has developed to the stage where we now know a lot more now than we did even ten years ago.
PN995
And so our knowledge base has increased?---Yes, definitely.
PN996
You made mention there of a Level 2 Child Care Worker in saying that they undertake a lot more of these duties. What did you actually mean then?---Well, we've heard evidence today from a number of level 2 workers about how not only do they report observations, they have to actually, what they call, decode them.
PN997
I am asking your opinion?---Yes, but they actually - that means that they have to actually assess what area of development that they are observing and what is the need in terms of that particular child to pass on to the level 4.
PN998
And this is Child Care Level 2?---Yes, to pass on to the level 4 for their programming and that certainly, you know, wasn't done when I started in centre based care.
PN999
So you - I mean, in your position with the union you'd be reasonably familiar with the award?---Yes.
PN1000
If I look at the award in terms of Child Care Worker Level 2 and their duties - and I'll just read through the dot points if I can just quickly, "Any of the duties listed for a Child Care Worker Level 1: assist in the preparation and implementation of programs suited to the needs of individual children and groups, be responsible for reporting observations of individual children or groups for program planning purpose, under direction undertake work with individual children with particular needs". Now, isn't this exactly what we've just been discussing? Aren't they exactly the same?---In 1990 when that came
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
in, the sort of reporting of observations that we were talking about was, saying to the level 4, "This child really likes this particular activity. It would benefit him to do that more often", or reporting that, "This child and this child aren't getting on", and it was really left to the level 4 who is doing the program to look at those issues and do something about them. These days that's not the case that the level 2 actually - her observations are generally speaking written observations and they actually, as I say, decode into the areas of development and suggest activities that the level 4 can implement to the program for that particular child.
PN1001
Now, if we come back to the award - and this was established in 1990 - the concepts of reporting observations for individual children or groups for programming and planning purposes, concept of preparation and implementation of programs suited to the needs of individual children or groups. These were all concepts that were in place in 1990?---It was certainly not at the level. The basic practises certificate didn't give anything like the sort of theory that the certificate III now had. The certificates for people who have completed certificate III can actually go into those different areas of development and talk about those areas and then pass that on to the level 4.
PN1002
So, are you saying that a person who has a certificate of Child Care Practice doesn't have that same capacity?---Certainly doesn't have that theoretical knowledge without the certificate III unless they've done further training or courses.
PN1003
Just finding a reference point, I think you do a comparison, don't you, in your statement about saying that a certificate of Child Care Practice, item 42 - certificate in basic practice you call it but, as I understand it, at the time - and I stand to be corrected - but it was a certificate of child practice which was based on both class sessions and regular practical exercises and that this was replaced with a certificate III in Children's Services?---Yes.
PN1004
So, it has certainly been replaced?---Yes, the certificate III is a different qualification and at a higher level, certainly than the basic practices certificate was.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1005
Were you involved in the union in 1998 when the last variation to the classification structure took place? Do you have any knowledge of that?---I can't remember it off the top of my head. I'm sorry.
PN1006
No, that's fine?---I certainly would have been in the union but whether I was involved with that I don't know.
PN1007
You make reference at item 40 of your statement, at the bottom of that paragraph regarding the discussions that usually happen between parents and child care professionals and that - and I quote you here, in your experience these questions used to be asked - refer to questions about home and social situations, right. You're referring to those?---Yes.
PN1008
Used to ask nurses in the centres as they were seen as the qualified worker, right?---Yes.
PN1009
And that situation is no longer the case. "The diploma and certificate III worker will receive these questions now, and provide guidance and support to parents." Hasn't that been the case since 1990, anyway?---When registered nurses were no longer part of the licensing regulations which I think was 1993. I am not completely sure but I think it was 1993, probably from 1993, that would be the case. There were still registered nurses in child care in 1990 and that qualification is still recognised as being a qualified nurse.
PN1010
A nurse?---Yes.
PN1011
So, if we go back then to say 1998 when they had the child care certificate, are you aware of what a child care certificate qualified a person to - what tasks they were qualified to undertake at a child care environment?---The old - - -
PN1012
Triple C, child care certificate?---Yes, the old triple C, yes. That qualified workers to work with children from 3 to 12 years.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1013
So, it didn't qualify them to work with children under the page of - I think the award says 2. That could have been mistaken?---Yes. Not to 2. The child care certificate must have been 2 to 12.
PN1014
And so who looked after children under the age of 2?---The nurse.
PN1015
That was the nurse?---Yes.
PN1016
And so then after that time of course developed and I think your statement talks about in the qualification levels in item - in para 42, you talk about a number of changes. The advent from the child care certificate, the old triple C, then evolved into an associate diploma. Now, what was the difference between the associate diploma and the child care certificate?---Initially the difference was the neonatal units, what they called the neonatal units where - involved looking - the care of infants from nought to two years. But also, our triple C was different from New South Wales triple C. Every state had a different - even though they were called the same their qualifications were quite different and once the associate diploma came in they started to be more the same. And once the AQF structure came in, of course then they were all on it.
PN1017
Yes. We'll get to that bit. Now, we'll come back to the child care certificate and then we come forward to the associate diploma. Now, my understanding is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, there was a bridging course to go from the child care certificate to the associate diploma, is that correct?---Yes, that's right.
PN1018
Okay. And after you had done that bridging course and become qualified with an associate diploma, what was the difference between that qualification and a child care certificate, in basic terms?---In terms of the licensing you're able to care for children from birth to 12 years of age.
PN1019
Right. So therefore you had a child care certificate between two to 12 and that evolved into the associate diploma between six months and 12, is that correct? To the best of your knowledge?---Birth to 12, yes.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1020
Now, the only other change from that point has been, hasn't it, the evolution of a diploma in Child Care, is that correct?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1021
And there was another bridging course translated to transition from associate diploma to a diploma, is that correct, to the best of your knowledge?---Yes, that's correct, yes.
PN1022
And what were the fundamental differences between the associate diploma and the diploma?---Right, in that period the national competencies for child care were developed and they were - that was quite a huge impact on the industry and especially in terms of training of child care. So the national training packages were then introduced that specified what had to be in child care qualifications.
PN1023
So training changed?---Training changed dramatically and the level of training was assessed at being higher, the associate diploma was actually assessed as being at a higher level at the diploma level, with changes obviously to the content of the course, along with the national training packages.
PN1024
So how long does it take you to do a diploma course?---Two years full time.
PN1025
And how long did it used to take to do the associate diploma, do you know?---Two years full time.
PN1026
So there's still the same amount of time involved in TAFE study?---Yes, the same amount of time but lots of university degrees and things too but they're not the same course.
PN1027
How much time was involved in finalising the child care certificate?---Sorry?
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1028
Are you aware of how much time was involved in completing a child care certificate?---How long it takes? 12 months full time.
PN1029
Not the - the triple C I'm talking about - - - ?---The triple C, sorry, yes. No, that was two years full time.
PN1030
Yes, not the C3?---Yes.
PN1031
So still only a two year course?---Yes.
PN1032
Are you aware of any other stipulations that were required to recognise the skill level of a child care certificate back in pre-1990?---Sorry, can you - - -
PN1033
Are you aware of any other requirement of an employee who had a child care certificate, the old triple C, that allowed them to be recognised as fully qualified child care workers?---I think you had to have one year experience.
PN1034
One year experience?---In terms of the licence conditions, to be in charge - a room leader.
PN1035
Okay?---In charge of our - I'm not a hundred per cent but that's my recollection.
PN1036
That's your recollection?---Yes.
PN1037
So if we work on your recollection, we've got pre-1990, we've got - and I'm looking at this evolution because you've identified a number of these qualifications in your statement. We've gone from a child care certificate, a two year TAFE qualification that required a year in the industry in order to be recognised as being a qualified person. Now, if we look at the award, that seems to be recognised at Child Care Worker Level 3, is that correct?---That's correct.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1038
Where does the associate diploma and the diploma, where are they recognised within the award?---At level 4. I don't think the diploma's in - - -
PN1039
So they're at a higher level?---Yes.
PN1040
Okay. So what is the - - -
PN1041
MS BELLINO: Sorry, can I just interrupt there for a second. I think Ms Stubbs is actually just finishing a sentence and I think she said - - -
PN1042
THE WITNESS: I don't think the diploma is in the award but I don't have my copy in front of me, so - - -
PN1043
MS BELLINO: I might give Ms Stubbs - - -
PN1044
MR MORPHETT: Well, I don't really have far to go - - -
PN1045
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: No, because they're not issues of fact really. You can deal with them by way of submissions.
PN1046
MR MORPHETT: By submissions, yes. I will move on and deal with them in submissions.
PN1047
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Sure.
PN1048
MR MORPHETT: Just to - I only have some brief questions to ask you regarding the application that's been made and the comparative. You've been involved in child care for an extended period of time and you'd be aware that in the ACT there's an award to cover teachers who work in a child care environment, is that correct?---That's correct.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1049
This application as it stands would propose, if it's accepted by the Commission, to place the rate of pay for a diploma qualified child care worker at a point of 130 per cent relativity against metal trades, is that correct? Is that your understanding?---That's right.
PN1050
Now, if I told you that this was in excess of the rate of pay that would be paid to a four year, university trained teacher in early childhood education, would you find that surprising?---No, under the Child Care Industry Award it would be high, yes, the teacher's award.
PN1051
And do you think that's appropriate?---Well, I don't think the teacher's rate is appropriate so - but I think it is appropriate that someone with a diploma is paid at 130 per cent, with the responsibilities that they have, as a team leader.
PN1052
Right, okay. I have nothing further.
PN1053
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Is there further cross-examination of this witness?
PN1054
MR MALONEY: Yes, your Honour.
PN1055
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Well, we might do that after the break. We'll adjourn till 2.15. Ms Stubbs, you should bear in mind that you're still under cross-examination so don't discuss your statement or rather your evidence with anyone during the break. We'll adjourn.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.58pm]
RESUMED [2.17pm]
LYNDA STUBBS, CONTINUING [2.17pm]
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1056
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Ms Stubbs, you understand you're still under oath?---Yes, your Honour.
PN1057
Yes, Mr Maloney.
PN1058
PN1059
MR MALONEY: Ms Stubbs, in your statement at paragraph 26 you say that classification structure for this claim is based on current wage fixing principles and has regard to external relativities in other awards. Do you know which other awards were examined?---I'm not fully aware because as it says in the next paragraph, national office assisted us with that but certainly it was the Metals Industry Award that we looked at most closely.
PN1060
And over on paragraph 28 you refer there to the petition and I think there was a copy of the petition, a blank petition, I beg your pardon, I'll withdraw that. You refer there to a petition that was circulated and signed?---Yes.
PN1061
Did you have control over that petition?---Yes, yes. It was a petition of members that we - I gave into the Commission when we lodged our application - that supported our application.
PN1062
You might just help me out there. Has that been attached to your statement?---No, it hasn't.
PN1063
Do you know if it's been provided to the Commission in these proceedings yet?---It would have been lodged with the application originally, I don't know whether it's attached to the application or not.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MALONEY
PN1064
Okay. Now, you refer at generally pages 7 and 8 of your submission to limitations on advancement opportunities for employees in the industry. In your own particular case you spent eight years as a director of a centre?---That's correct, yes.
PN1065
Now, if you were there for eight years as the director of a centre, and showing no inclination to want to leave that place when you were in year five, six or seven and you've got 12 other staff members in the centre, where would you expect that they would advance to?---Sorry, I - - -
PN1066
Where would you expect that they would advance to in terms of their career path?---Well - - -
PN1067
If you weren't likely to move as the director and create a vacancy and perhaps some consequential vacancies after that - - - ?---I think that is the problem, that there is no career path. There is no recognition as people do more training as to where they can go in terms of the classification structure, which is why we're trying to introduce more levels of the classification structure, so people can actually improve.
PN1068
But that would also depend, wouldn't it, on whether there's a requirement to have those people at those particular levels, in the particular service involved, wouldn't it?---To a certain extent but we also were trying to introduce into our classification structure recognition for qualifications.
PN1069
I mean, to quote an analogy, you could end up in a situation where you've got all chiefs and no indians, so to speak?---Well, I don't think when you're talking about the care of children that you want to limit the number of qualified staff that you have or having people obtain qualifications. I think it's recognised in all the studies of early childhood that having more qualified staff is a benefit in terms of the quality of care that you're able to provide. So that's what we want in our classification structure, to actually give incentives for child care professionals to obtain qualifications.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MALONEY
PN1070
Of course. Training's quite important, isn't it?---Yes, very important.
PN1071
Now, detailed on page 9 of your statement, paragraph 42, Changes to Qualifications. As a non-ACT resident, could I just be clear about how we are saying these qualifications changed. The previous recognised qualification, which is no longer available, was the old associate diploma, two year course?---Yes.
PN1072
Correct?---Yes.
PN1073
And the entry level into that course was year 12, the final year of high school?---That's right, yes.
PN1074
And then when the diploma came into being, which effectively replaced the associate diploma, the diploma was again a two year course, the same as the associate diploma?---Not exactly the same but the same length of time, yes.
PN1075
Same length of time. And again, initially it was year 12 entry?---Yes.
PN1076
And is it the case that in January of this year that entry requirement changed, for the diploma?---I'm not really sure about that.
PN1077
Is it your understanding that the entry requirements have now changed to year 12 plus a certificate III?---No, that is not a requirement in terms of the - the way that the TAFE is organising their diploma. I think this is where there is some confusion about the training packages. In the TAFE system where people attend classes they can enter the diploma at year 12. If you were doing training through flexible delivery, through an RTO, you start at a traineeship at certificate III and can go on and do the diploma. So that's that way that - so - - -
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MALONEY
PN1078
Let's take the second example you use there?---Yes.
PN1079
Somebody who goes to an RTO, they've done year 12 and they would do a certificate III which is one year which then takes them straight into the diploma which they'll then spend a year doing to get their diploma?---The certificate III can certainly take one year if - depending on the amount of study time that they're given. Because they're actually working at the same time, the traineeship is training while you work, so some people take longer than 12 months to do it because of the - whether they get the actual training time, like the study time to do that. The diploma, I'm not sure whether it's actually just another 12 months in terms of the new cadetship or not. That's a very new system of obtaining a diploma and it may take longer than another 12 months on top of that but I'm not quite sure.
PN1080
Because it's competency based, isn't it?---That's right.
PN1081
So as you acquire competencies and you fulfil all the competency levels, then you can gain your diploma?---That's right.
PN1082
So it could take longer than two years?---Yes.
PN1083
Would it be unlikely that it would take less than two years?---No, not - for someone who's experienced and could get recognition of prior learning and - possibly could but it - generally not.
PN1084
So if we had a more experienced worker in the industry who'd acquired the old associate diploma, they'd articulate into a diploma course?---Yes.
PN1085
And would it be likely that they would - that associate diploma would give them credits for a significant portion of their diploma course?---I think so, yes, personally.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MR MALONEY
PN1086
Nothing further, thank you.
PN1087
MR MORPHETT: Sorry, Ms Stubbs, I've only got a couple of brief questions. You mentioned career path there - that you didn't feel that there was a career path in child care. Is that correct?---Not - not a good career path, no.
PN1088
Not a - not a career path?---No, not a good one.
PN1089
So, a person who has a certificate III qualification can seek to - - -
PN1090
MS BELLINO: I just wanted to raise that Mr Morphett has actually already asked questions of Ms Stubbs prior to the - - -
PN1091
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: You've had your opportunity, Mr Morphett. What are you doing?
PN1092
MS WILSON: I would like to ask a question. Sorry.
PN1093
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: And I suspect it will be about the career path.
PN1094
PN1095
MS WILSON: I was going to ask - you say if there's no career path for them to move up because there's - what - not enough room. I mean, if there's not a position available, such as the direction position as yourself, how can people expect to progress further up a career path, and how does that work? In a normal job arrangement if there's not a position above, say, myself, I certainly can't expect to be promoted when there isn't a position available - - -?---Available - - -
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MS WILSON
PN1096
- - - regardless of how much qualifications I have. Why do you propose that it should differ within the child care industry?---For the same reason that I said before - that I think we need to recognise training, that we need to recognise that people, say, at a level 2 who have a certificate III and go on and do the diploma, and what we've proposed in our classification is an actual rate, a level for someone who has achieved the diploma who may or may not be a room team leader. So, that's another classification level above that that recognises not only having the diploma, but a team leader also supervises staff. So, that - that's the sort of classification that I'm talking about, of increasing the numbers, the levels, within that classification structure so that people can actually move up, because if you do have the diploma, even though you might still be at - under the award as a level 2 because there's no position, you're actually using the skills that you have gained from that diploma in assisting the room leader to do more programming. And in fact in our classification structure we've allowed that someone who is starting could start actually doing the programming for one child or a small group of children so that by the time they've progresses and are able to be the diploma level and a room team leader, they've got quite experienced at doing that sort of job at programming. And that's - I think that is what is needed in the industry, so that at level 2 - I mean, currently we do have in the industry level 2 workers who are very involved in programming and not being recognised for that at all. There's - there's no financial reward for them whatsoever, but they choose to do that in order to further progress in their career.
PN1097
And are you aware of - I mean, is this something you advocate for other industries and professions - that every time someone would like to take on a qualification or an extra qualification at their own choice at their own initiative, that therefore - - -?---Well, it's in the Metals award. That's exactly what is there.
PN1098
But with - - -
PN1099
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I'm wondering - to some extent we're straying into submissions. Witnesses are to give evidence about matters of fact. I don't think - the fact that Ms Stubbs is in the witness box isn't going to give what she says any more validity because it's a submission essentially.
**** LYNDA STUBBS XXN MS WILSON
PN1100
MS BELLINO: I'll move on then, your Honour.
PN1101
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Yes. Okay.
PN1102
MS BELLINO: I've only got one question then.
PN1103
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Okay.
PN1104
MS BELLINO: In paragraph number 30 you state that number of students expressing interest in studying for child care and related qualifications is declining. We've got evidence previously to say that it's actually increased and they've had to add an extra class in the CIT. Where do you base your observations from?---From the ACT Workforce Project Report which was done in October 2002. And they actually say in that report that the numbers of students doing the diploma course which was at CIT in that year declined. So, last year they obviously went up. But, as Lesley said, she's still concerned about the numbers for next year.
PN1105
Even though it doubled this year. I've got no further questions.
PN1106
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination?
PN1107
MS BELLINO: No, your Honour.
PN1108
PN1109
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: The next witness.
PN1110
PN1111
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---Erin Kate Mary Johnston and I live at 37 Wade Street, Watson.
PN1112
What is your current place of employment?---At Russell Hill Early Childhood Centre.
PN1113
And what position are you currently employed in?---A level 1 split shift full-time.
PN1114
Thank you. Have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---Yes.
PN1115
Do you identify this as a copy of that statement?---Yes.
PN1116
Would you like to make any changes to that statement?---No. That's fine. I've checked everything.
PN1117
And that statement is true and correct?---Yes.
PN1118
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I will mark Ms Johnston's statement as exhibit UACT15.
PN1119
MS BELLINO: I have no further questions.
PN1120
**** ERIN KATE MARY JOHNSTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1121
MR MORPHETT: Ms Johnston, if I understand your statement correctly, you've been employed in the industry for approximately four years. Is that about right?---Yes.
PN1122
Okay. And you said in your statement that you were - I think you expected to complete a certificate III in about six months. Is that the case?---Yes.
PN1123
And that was at the time that you did the statement?---Yes.
PN1124
All right. And so - and are you nearing the end of that qualification now or is that still ongoing?---Yes, very close. It's - I think - I believe in March I should be finished.
PN1125
March? Okay?---Yes.
PN1126
All right. So, when you were employed by - and I assume you're employed by K U Children's Services, I think?---That's right.
PN1127
Okay. And so were you employed as a level 1 child care worker or a level 2?---A level 1.
PN1128
A level 1?---That's right.
PN1129
Okay. You say in your statement at item 12 that - and I quote - "I want to receive the certificate III qualification so that I have some recognition of the skills that I am constantly developing, both theoretical and practical, as a child care worker". What do you actually mean by that?---Sorry. Which part was that?
**** ERIN KATE MARY JOHNSTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1130
That's at item 12 in your statement. And you say there that, "I want to receive the certificate III qualification so that I have some recognition of the skills that I am constantly developing, both theoretical and practical, as a child care worker". I'm just wondering what you mean by "recognition of skills"?---Well, just so that I can have it on a piece of paper in my portfolio that I have professionally developed to that level - - -
PN1131
Right. So - - -?---Would feel would give me a sense of satisfaction. My mum is also an assistant preschool teacher, so that would be something nice to take home too.
PN1132
Right. Yes, of course it would be. And so, what you're actually looking for is to gain qualification - - -?---That's right.
PN1133
- - - in the field of work?---That's right.
PN1134
Have you thought about further study after you've completed a certificate III?---I have thought about it, but at the moment I don't believe the level of responsibility would be worth it financially.
PN1135
Right. And what do you mean by that "the level of responsibility"?---Well, the level 4s in my centre would receive about $100 more than what I am getting, and they have to program for the children and, you know, watch their development and decide what they need to learn next, and I don't think that's worthwhile.
PN1136
All right. You go on to say at item 13 - you mention that you think that it is unfair that after commencing employment in January 2002 and after that time when you completed your qualification, you felt that it should be recognised by a wage increase through a classification structure. Is that correct?---Yes.
**** ERIN KATE MARY JOHNSTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1137
So, what do you mean by that? Why do you think it should be recognised?---I felt that as though I had worked at that centre even for so long, plus my previous relief experience at other child care centres, should accrue to me - well, also since I'd been doing the same job as the other people in my room - that perhaps they would consider me to become a level 2 and be paid for the same job that I was doing, but they didn't agree, so I felt that was unfair.
PN1138
All right. Is there a level 2 position available for you to move into?---It's hard to say. It's up to the centre to re-examine the case each year, and I've put in another application this year, so fingers crossed.
PN1139
Okay. So, there's some sort of review process, is there, at the centre?---That's right. They look through back at your previous experience and things like that - how much you - it's added up to and how much you've done at that centre and so - which different rooms and age groups you've worked with, yes.
PN1140
So, your statement also refers to a lot of other courses that you've undertaken, is that correct? And you identify them?---Yes.
PN1141
Were you required to undertake those courses to complete your certificate III training?---Not all of them. Two - two of them at our centre - well, they pay us time in lieu to go out to do two courses per year. They encourage us to keep - keep trained. And the first air certificate I did as part of my certificate III course.
PN1142
You did that as part of your certificate III course?---That's right. But we had to pay separately.
PN1143
Right. Okay. And so you weren't required by your employer to undertake any of these extra courses, were you?---Yes. The - well, I didn't - I got to choose which courses I wanted to do, but we have to do two workshops per year, yes.
**** ERIN KATE MARY JOHNSTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1144
Right. So, they want you to do two workshops per year?---That's right, yes. They encourage us to.
PN1145
And do they pay for it?---Yes, they do - yes.
PN1146
All right. Okay. You mentioned too in your statement that you think you - I withdraw that. Ms Johnston, once you've got a certificate III qualification, are you only seeking further employment with K U, or would you consider going and working in another centre?---Yes, I'd consider it if a position came up close to my home or - - -
PN1147
So, is it - is it your view that there's a career path in child care?---Possibly, depending on what happens today and - yes, basically depending on what happens today.
PN1148
I wasn't meaning dependent on what happened today - - -?---Sorry.
PN1149
But if we look at that - - -
PN1150
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I don't think much is going to happen today.
PN1151
MR MORPHETT: No. What I am getting to is - sorry - my question is more about if - I mean, are you aware that there are, you know, or would you agree that there are other opportunities out there for you to study in the child care or early education fields?---I don't know what you mean by that.
PN1152
Well, I mean, can you - you could go on an study, say, for example, a diploma or you could go to university and - - -?---Well, I could, but at this stage if I - if I was going to put that much time into something, it wouldn't be child care because it wouldn't be worth it at the end financially, and I hope to have my own children some day, and I can't see myself being able to afford that ever at the moment.
**** ERIN KATE MARY JOHNSTON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1153
Right. So, what's your view then about the - the - like, say, for example, if somebody - if you wanted to do a degree in early childhood education at university, you don't think that's worth it?---I wouldn't be able to afford to. I couldn't afford to take that much time off work. There's lots of different things. I wouldn't be able to afford the cost of the degree. I wouldn't - at the current pay rate, it just would not be worth it. If I wanted to put that much time into something, I would be more likely to put it into something like administration or something, because then I feel I could build towards something.
PN1154
Okay. Nothing further.
PN1155
PN1156
MR MALONEY: Ms Johnston, in your statement at para 15 you indicate there that you completed a one-day workshop about reporting concerns about children dealing with mandatory reporting, and then you say that you've had to deal with a child protection issue once in your current position. That would have been done in conjunction with your team leader or director at the centre, would it?---It was actually unrelated to the centre, so it didn't have to do with them, but I did approach my director for advice as to how to handle the situation, and she encouraged me to find the people that - go and see the family. And I did that and that's - - -
PN1157
Good.
PN1158
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination?
PN1159
MS BELLINO: No further questions, thank you.
**** ERIN KATE MARY JOHNSTON XXN MR MALONEY
PN1160
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Johnston?---Thank you.
PN1161
PN1162
PN1163
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---Jane Maree Marshall of 7 Barlow Street, Scullin, ACT.
PN1164
And what's your current place of employment?---Central Canberra Family Day Care.
PN1165
And what position do you currently hold?---A Resource Coordinator.
PN1166
Have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---I have.
PN1167
Do you identify this as a copy of that statement that you've prepared?---Yes, correct.
PN1168
Are there any changes you would like to make to your statement?---No.
PN1169
And your statement is true and correct?---Absolutely.
PN1170
Thank you.
PN1171
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Statement of Ms Jane Marshall is exhibit UACT16.
PN1172
MR MORPHETT: Ms Marshall, I think at item 7 of your statement, you currently hold an associate diploma of Social Sciences in Child Care, is that correct?---That's correct.
**** JANE MAREE MARSHALL XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1173
Okay. And I think you also said that you're studying for a Bachelor of Education?---That's correct.
PN1174
And you've commenced that?---I've got four subjects to go next year to complete it.
PN1175
Four and then you're done?---I'm done.
PN1176
Okay. And so at item 15 of your statement you also say that; "I believe I deserve more money and recognition for the work I have been doing in child care, I'm a professional and take my job seriously", that's your view and how do you come to that view, why do you think that?---That I deserve more money?
PN1177
Yes?---Due to the increase of the duty of care for children, the amount of work that you need to do, you do a lot of work with parents, you work long hours, hard hours, on the floor. You need to implement accreditation and licensing conditions to your workplace. And they are ever increasing and getting ever more difficult. Yes.
PN1178
Okay. So, you're currently - I mean, you're only three minutes off finishing your Bachelor of Education, what's the - what do you intend to do once you've completed your Batchelor of Education, you'll be working in the child care field?---I would like to think so but I'd also like to extend where I work and that's part of the reason why I am continuing to study. I'd like to think that I can raise the profile with my extended knowledge and work with children and work in different fields. I have obviously some ideas about where I want to go, or challenges I want to do, but that's why I'm studying.
PN1179
So, your Batchelor of Education, is that a four year or a three year?---That's a four year.
**** JANE MAREE MARSHALL XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1180
Four year, okay. I'm interested in how you feel about a person with a two year diploma, which is the current application?---Mm.
PN1181
Who would be effectively, if this application is successful, being paid more money than you would be paid if you were working in a child care centre under the Child Care Award?---Okay. My concern about money is to me it's not a competition, you should be paid what you deserve and I don't think I should be concerned about someone who gets more money because of X, Y, Z. I know that a person that does - or works, rather, in a child care facility works really hard and they deserve that. If you want to make a comparison, some administrative tasks for people that do, say - they don't have the duty of care as you'd need to with children, get more money. And so I don't think I need to be concerned about somebody who does a two year compared to my four year, I'm not that concerned. I think they deserve that money.
PN1182
Okay. And you say in item 18 of your statement the job and skill levels required by the workers and the level of responsibility required, it may have changed, how has your responsibility changed in child care?---Well, I guess I stated that before, that your duty of care is really important to the children, how you report, you document everything, you are required to hold those documents for a set amount of years, you're accountable for documentation, medication, mandatory reporting, specific observations about children who behave a certain way or in terms of their behaviour. So, those sort of things have increased, I guess. Your responsibility.
PN1183
All right. So, have the actual tasks that you're undertaking, have they changed or are they - have they just become more complex?---They're more complex but they've changed as well. Child care - working in child care has become more refined, you're again responsible on a lot of different levels. I guess.
PN1184
Thank you. I don't have anything further.
PN1185
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Ms Wilson?
**** JANE MAREE MARSHALL XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1186
PN1187
MS WILSON: I notice - sorry, you've been in the industry for quite some time?---Yes.
PN1188
And in 1990 you received an associate diploma?---Correct.
PN1189
Is that the first study that you'd undertaken?---Absolutely.
PN1190
And that enabled - were you already working at the Fairyland Day Care Centre?---I finished studying and then I did some relief work and then I found a full time job with Fairyland.
PN1191
And then you worked there for ten - - -?---Three years.
PN1192
Sorry, three years. So, 10 years full time prior to Fairyland?---Seven years in another centre so 10 years all up.
PN1193
And within that centre did you progress within the centre, say, from a level 1?---No, I was employed as a level 4. I guess the only extra thing that I did which I did not get paid for was being assistant director and in absence of the director, director.
PN1194
Okay. And then from there you became the assistant director for a community run centre?---That's right, yes. I just said that, yes.
PN1195
Yes, that's - - -?---Yes.
**** JANE MAREE MARSHALL XXN MS WILSON
PN1196
And then since then you've undertaken certificate IV in assessing and workplace training?---Correct.
PN1197
Which allows you to do accreditation?---Yes and be responsible and do accredited training.
PN1198
Within your own centre or you can - - -?---Within the work - within my particular workplace and also for other organisations.
PN1199
Yes. And as well you've also received the certificate in Child Care Service Management as well from the CIT?---Correct.
PN1200
And at the moment you're Resource Coordinator?---Correct.
PN1201
From my perspective I would consider that a pretty regulative career path, would you consider that a career path, when you look back?---In terms of study, yes, in terms of where I went with it perhaps. Well, I was always employed basically on the same levels so there was no recognition for what I studied, I guess. So - - -
PN1202
However you have progressed through many different ways?---Yes.
PN1203
Yes. I've got no further questions.
PN1204
PN1205
MR MALONEY: Ms Marshall, in paragraph 11 of your witness statement - - -?---Excuse me.
**** JANE MAREE MARSHALL XXN MR MALONEY
PN1206
- - - your reference experience and training, do you regard in your particular industry, your field of endeavour, the care of children, experience to be important?---Can you just say that again? I'm having trouble hearing you.
PN1207
Sorry. Do you regard experience as being important?---Experiences with children?
PN1208
Experience in the industry, working in the industry?---Absolutely.
PN1209
That's fine. Thank you.
PN1210
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Any re-examination?
PN1211
PN1212
MS BELLINO: You were asked a number of questions in relation to the number of courses you've undertaken, I just wanted to clarify, when you finished those courses were you offered a higher position in the centres for finishing those courses?---No.
PN1213
Were you offered any money for finishing any of those courses?---No.
PN1214
Thank you.
PN1215
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you, Ms Marshall, you're excused.
PN1216
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Just before we call the next witness, I think we only have two left, Ms Fernandez and Ms Deakin, is that right?
PN1217
MS BELLINO: That's correct, yes.
PN1218
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Okay. Mr Morphett, can you make inquiries to see whether any of your witnesses can be brought on this afternoon?
PN1219
MR MORPHETT: I have - - -
PN1220
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I appreciate it is short notice but there may be one - - -
PN1221
MR MORPHETT: I haven't made those inquiries but we could make those calls.
PN1222
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It maybe that there's one nearby, it's just that at this sort of rate we'll be finished the AHLMUs witnesses by 3.30 and I'd rather use the time available if we could. If you wouldn't mind, thank you. Do you want a short adjournment - are you able to get someone to do that? Yep, that would be great, thanks. Call the next witness.
PN1223
PN1224
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---It's Michelle Fernandez of 8 Buckmaster Crescent in Dunlop, ACT.
PN1225
And what's your current place of employment?---Spence Children's Cottage.
PN1226
And what's your position there?---Director.
PN1227
Have you prepared a written statement for today?---I have.
PN1228
Do you identify this as a copy of your statement?---Yes, I do.
PN1229
Would you like to make any changes to your statement?---I don't think so.
PN1230
And is your statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN1231
Thank you.
PN1232
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I mark Ms Fernandez's statement as exhibit UACT17.
PN1233
MS BELLINO: Your Honour, we just have one question to ask Ms Fernandez.
PN1234
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Ms Bellino.
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XN MS BELLINO
PN1235
MS BELLINO: Can I ask you, Ms Fernandez, in relation to point 2 on your statement, can you clarify your comments in relation to comparison of the certificate of Child Care Practices and certificate III?---Yes, it was written like that because of the pay rates and things of a certificate of Child Care Practices to the certificate III that's offered today at the child care course in CIT.
PN1236
So, are you comparing the rates?---More the pay scale, yes, than what's actually offered in the courses because they have changed quite dramatically.
PN1237
Thank you. We have no further questions.
PN1238
PN1239
MR MORPHETT: Ms Fernandez, you're currently a director of Spence Child Care Centre, is that correct?---Yes, that is.
PN1240
And the qualifications you undertook, you actually have a certificate of Child Care Practice originally?---Yes, I do. Yes.
PN1241
Yes. And you also say that in your statement that's equivalent to the certificate III today, which I think has just been covered by my friend?---Yes, it has.
PN1242
Right. Now, that course, are you aware of what's involved in the certificate III?---In today's course or what I did?
PN1243
No, I mean today's course?---Yes, I've had some people on certificate III - - -
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MS WILSON
PN1244
Okay, and is that a one year tertiary course?---Yes, it is.
PN1245
Okay. And you also achieved the associate diploma qualification on top of that?---I have now - I have actually a full diploma.
PN1246
Did you - right, you have a diploma now, okay. So, did you undertake a bridging course for the associate diploma?---Yes, I did.
PN1247
And how long ago did you do that?---About two years ago.
PN1248
Two years, okay. Did you get some sort of prior recognition in the courses when you undertake - you know, when you had the Child Care - - -?---There was a - - -
PN1249
- - - certificate of Child Care Practice?---When I had the certificate there was a small amount but, no, certainly not. I had to really complete a full two years diploma.
PN1250
But there was some recognition that you had that qualification?---Yes - - -
PN1251
You don't remember what - - -?---Not - I don't remember what exactly but there wasn't an awful lot because I had to do the whole two years. And I did that full time.
PN1252
Right, okay. Now, item 5 of your statement, you're talking about how you became a team leader for preschool age children at Spence Cottage, you had 11 children under your care and you say - and I quote - "I could not have held this position unless I had gained my diploma as I was required to undertake programming for children in my care"?---Yes.
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MS WILSON
PN1253
Now, I put it to you that's pretty standard, isn't it, for a person in that sort of level, supervising children, to have a diploma?---Yes.
PN1254
So, in having that qualification, there's nothing extraordinary that actually you're required to have? There's nothing more extraordinary than just having that qualification?---Well, a qualification means you've done some training and some study so therefore you've looked at child development, looked at programming for the needs of children and team working and things like that, so I think it is extraordinary that you have to have some knowledge and some understanding of these things before you take a team leader's role.
PN1255
Right. But in your position currently as director you would have a working knowledge, wouldn't you, of the licensing requirements?---Yes.
PN1256
And in order to have a person in charge of a room, they would have to be a qualified person, wouldn't they?---Yes, they do.
PN1257
You go on at item 9 and 10 of your statement and you talk about how you have more children in care and therefore you have to program more, is that correct?---Well, yes, I mean, the centre that I am currently employed at is employed on a daily basis to have 25 children but with the increase of part time numbers of children, of course you're seeing a lot more children over the week.
PN1258
So you've still got 25 children on a daily basis but there's just more - different faces during the week?---Yes.
PN1259
Yes, okay. So, in particular at item 10, you say that level 2 workers are expected to observe, to help alleviate the workload of the level 4s?---Yes, with the new certificate III they do a lot more thorough learning about programming and observation and things like that and they work as team assistants, they're helping to cover those programming observations, they offer their help with that.
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MS WILSON
PN1260
So are you aware though of what's required of a Level 2 Child Care Worker under the Child Care Industry (Australian Capital Territory) Award 1998?---Yes. They encouraged to - they're asked to do programming - observations and things within their - - -
PN1261
And program, all right. So if you're aware that they're required to do that you don't - are you saying that you think it's extraordinary that they do that in your centre?---What do you mean, extraordinary?
PN1262
Well, is it strange that they do take observations or help with programming?---Well, when I started with my certificate III we weren't expected to do that sort of observation and programming. We were helping with cleaning bathrooms and floors and things like that. We weren't looking at the team leader's programming books so where today they're very aware of those sort of things and know how programming works and what the team leaders are doing.
PN1263
So you just said that you weren't expected to do those things. When did you actually complete - sorry, I didn't make a note of it, I'm sure it was in your statement, but when did you actually complete your certificate of Child Care Practice?---After the 12 months so - I don't have a date in there. I did that in - - -
PN1264
Just ball park will do?---Thirteen years ago.
PN1265
So 13 years ago. So you were involved in the industry in 1990 when the current award changed into its present form. Okay. So those job descriptors that are in the award now were in the award then, that's when they were vented, isn't that right?---Yes - - -
PN1266
To the best of your knowledge?---To the best of my knowledge.
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MS WILSON
PN1267
Okay. So the requirement for observations to be done and assistance with programming has been in place for a Level 2 Child Care Worker since 1990, to the best of your knowledge? Is that right?---Yes. I don't - as far as I know they are, yes.
PN1268
As far as you know. At item 11 of your statement you say that at the centre currently there are three of the team leaders qualified, completed diplomas, one team leader has also completed a child care certificate and the child care certificate is held. Is that correct? I'll have a look at that, I think I might have misquoted. Yes. All three of your team leaders are qualified and have completed their diplomas, one team leader has also completed a child care certificate - - - ?---Now, that was a triple C, that's an old qualification.
PN1269
Yes, that's the old child care certificate, okay?---No, it's even before that I think. It's an old triple C certificate.
PN1270
No, I'm not talking about a - yes, we're talking about a triple C, not a certificate III?---Yes.
PN1271
So with the triple C qualification, is that employee required to have a - is there some sort of dispensation or variation offered by Licensing?---No, not to my knowledge.
PN1272
So if that person considered to be a qualified child care worker?---Yes, she is.
PN1273
Thank you for your indulgence, it's been quicker. I have another question here regarding item - paragraph 16 of your statement, something I'm curious about. You say that you do have an untrained level 2 worker, "who I consider is not as competent as a trained level 2 worker. She's still able to observe children but cannot relate the observations to theories or children's development". Now, are you saying that this person who hasn't had any training before is less competent than a person who has a certificate III?---Competent in the fact that she doesn't have the theory knowledge from going to school to learn, yes, but not competent with the way she does her job within the sector.
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MS WILSON
PN1274
Okay. So have you given her instruction as to what she's supposed to do?---Yes.
PN1275
And how long has she been employed in the centre?---She's been for over - - -
PN1276
Is it a she or he, I didn't - I made an assumption there, I apologise?---She's been with us for nearly two years.
PN1277
So nearly two years. Now, to be appointed at a level 2 Child Care Worker she evidently had some prior experience?---No, we believe in our centre we take people - she's been babysitting and things like that. She was employed with us for a few months to see the sort of skills and things that she could bring to our service. From then, observing her and discussions with our management committee. They have happily paid her at the level 2 rate.
PN1278
So it was a choice made, to pay her at that higher level? Okay?---She deserves to be.
PN1279
You also make comment here at item 17 of your statement. You say that, "I have one worker in the centre who I have watched complete her diploma after completing her certificate III. While she was studying her diploma she was acting as a team leader. I watched her develop skills in relation to programming. She began to observe children more deeply. She now develops programs for her age group on her own. That program is now better as a result of studying for her diploma. She has also got better valuation skills as a result of studying her diploma". Now, isn't that a normal course of action that you would expect from a person who's undergone that sort of training?---Yes.
PN1280
Okay. So you don't - one again, there's nothing strange about that, the person goes off, does some training and they come - working through the environment they demonstrate those skills?---Some people do, yes.
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MS WILSON
PN1281
And you say in item 23 of your statement, about halfway through the paragraph, you say, "I believe that with the classification structure that recognises the work done by child care professionals, we will improve the status of not just the worker but also the children's services industry as a whole". Now, can you tell me how we're going to achieve that if we just put a new structure in the award?---Well, I believe that when - and I guess that's my point of view from being a director, when you're employing staff and they're coming in with just a qualification. Some of them have a wealth of experience that they're also bringing with them and there's really not a lot in the current award structure that you can say, "Well, they sort of fit with here, we'll just pay them at the base level 4" for example. Where now, with this new classification, if they're coming in with extra skills and they've done some management something, something else somewhere else, you can pull all that together and recognise that person for what she or he is really worth.
PN1282
And there's nothing to stop going to the award, is there, from paying anybody more than the award rate?---No, that's why we have enterprise agreements, to increase the status of our professionals in the child care industry.
PN1283
So do you have an enterprise agreement in place?---Yes, we do.
PN1284
And when was that last updated?---The update was - we're due again in April 2004.
PN1285
So how long before it was - - - ?---Three years.
PN1286
Three years?---Yes.
PN1287
Okay. So in your current round of negotiations are you looking at inserting these classification structure and rates of pay in the agreement?---We will be looking at those in what we currently do, yes.
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MS WILSON
PN1288
Right. So you'll be trying to apply those here - - - ?---Mm.
PN1289
PN1290
MR MALONEY: Ms Fernandez, you talk about, at paragraph 8 of your statement, the make up of the centre, as it were. And you're licensed for 25 per day. Can I just clarify your staffing levels. There's yourself as the director?---Mm.
PN1291
You have then three team leaders?---Yes.
PN1292
And they're what, level 4?---Mm.
PN1293
And then you say you have three floaters? Three staff who float between the age groups?---Mm. That's changed slightly now. This was written, obviously, a while ago.
PN1294
What do we have now?---We currently have three team leaders and two team assistants and then I have relief staff if we need it.
PN1295
Sorry, I missed that last part?---A relief staff if we need it.
PN1296
Okay. Could I just take you to paragraph 11 of your statement. That's why I'm a bit confused because you say there in the second paragraph - sorry, second sentence - - - ?---When it was written - - -
PN1297
There were four team assistants?---Yes, there weren't - - -
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MR MALONEY
PN1298
So what's your daily fleet now?---Sorry?
PN1299
What's your paragraph 11 say now?---Well, at that time we still have the three team leaders but I had an extra team leader because they did a split shift. That person has since left so that's why there's - - -
PN1300
And now you've got three team leaders, two team assistants?---Two team assistants.
PN1301
Two team assistants at level 2. And those two - - - ?---And myself.
PN1302
- - - those two at level 2, they've got certificate III?---One of them has a certificate III.
PN1303
You've told the Commission you have a certified agreement?---Yes.
PN1304
Which is up for renewal early next year?---April.
PN1305
April. Are you responsible for the budget for the centre?---I work with the Parent Management Committee and the treasurer and myself and the committee work on the budget for the centre, yes,
PN1306
Right. And have you done any forward planning on your budget to budget for any future wage increases at this stage?---Yes, we would have. Yes, we have.
PN1307
And the fees that your centre charges for the parents or to the parents, do you know if they're at a similar level to other like centres or centres in your location?---To the best of my knowledge we're pretty comparable, however I have noticed a few centres have come through and their fees are higher than ours.
**** MICHELLE FERNANDEZ XXN MR MALONEY
PN1308
Over in paragraph 23, 24 of your statement, you mention there that you support the campaign to improve the wages and working conditions of the child care industry. We know about the wages. What do you mean by working conditions? Do you mean the physical environment or do you mean the entitlements?---Entitlements.
PN1309
Does that also apply to your comment at line 4 of paragraph 24, where you talk about conditions?---Yes.
PN1310
You also say in paragraph 24 that staff have been required to work longer hours. Does that mean you pay overtime?---If we need to, yes.
PN1311
Thank you.
PN1312
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination?
PN1313
MS BELLINO: There's no re-examination.
PN1314
PN1315
MR MORPHETT: I might advise the Commission, we've managed to contact a number of the witnesses who are presently inbound and we're anticipating in a short period of time to have a couple of them here.
PN1316
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you.
PN1317
MR MORPHETT: We have got some difficulty with our statements because they're actually over at Chamberlains because we didn't expect them to be needed till tomorrow so we will have to contact somebody over there to get them to bring them over. So at some point in the proceedings, if we can have a brief adjournment.
PN1318
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Certainly.
PN1319
MS BELLINO: Yes, just prior to that adjournment it would be nice to know who whose potential witnesses might actually be.
PN1320
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Certainly. Do we know who they might be?
PN1321
MR MORPHETT: Yes.
PN1322
MR MALONEY: Excuse the Commission, Colbran, Campion, Malden and Dau are on their way.
PN1323
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Well, four of them might be a bit optimistic but nevertheless, we'll see how we go. Your next witness?
PN1324
PN1325
MS BELLINO: Can you please state your full name and address?---Barbara Deacon, it's 5 Alberga Street, Kaleen.
PN1326
And what's your current place of employment?---YWCA Family Day Care at Spence.
PN1327
What position are you employed in?---I'm a coordinator.
PN1328
Ms Deacon, have you prepared a written statement for today's proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN1329
Do you identify this as a copy of the statement that you've prepared?---Yes, it is.
PN1330
Have you made any changes to that statement?---No, I have not.
PN1331
Is your statement true and correct?---Yes, it was.
PN1332
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I'll mark Ms Deacon's statement as exhibit UACT18.
PN1333
MS BELLINO: Your Honour, I just have one question for Ms Deacon to clarify.
**** BARBARA DEACON XN MS BELLINO
PN1334
Ms Deacon, could I ask you to look at point 8 on your statement. Can you clarify paragraph 8 in relation to a comparison of the certificate of Child Care Practices and the current certificate III?---Okay. At the time that I did the Child Care Practices certificate, that would have allowed me to become an assistant in a child care centre. So I don't know whether it equates to a certificate III now but, yes, that's what it was then.
PN1335
Thank you. I have no further questions.
PN1336
PN1337
MS WILSON: This is in relation to paragraph 8. I'm not sure - you refer to the child care practices as the triple C in brackets - triple C is usually the - - - ?---No, it's not the triple C, it's the Child Care Practices.
PN1338
Okay. Did that take you one year to complete?---I did it 18 months part time, yes.
PN1339
Okay, thank you?---It would have been a one year course full time.
PN1340
And you're aware that the now certificate III is a one year course?---Yes.
PN1341
Okay. If I could just take you to paragraphs 14 to 24, and go to a list of duties required to undertake the position of the family day care coordinator and you also state at paragraph 43 that these have changed considerably over the last 10 years. Could you perhaps walk or talk the Commission through the various changes with the family day care that has been undertaken?---Okay, since I started as a coordinator with family day care we've actually come under Licensing now and quality assurance which means that we're much more accountable in our supervision of our child care workers and what the child care workers, the standards that they have to meet as well. That's been one of the major things in the last few years.
**** BARBARA DEACON XXN MS WILSON
PN1342
The fact that you're now accountable, does that actually change the work that you carry out though or have you always maintained that standard of day care within the family day care system as now more the fact that, "Well, people will check up and people will make sure if you're doing everything okay" - - - ?---Well, we've always - - -
PN1343
MS BELLINO: I think there's about three questions there.
PN1344
MS WILSON: Sorry.
PN1345
MS BELLINO: So if you could ask one at a time it might assist.
PN1346
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: If you could rephrase, Ms Wilson.
PN1347
MS WILSON: I will rephrase.
PN1348
Has the actual day to day duties for a family day care coordinator changed considerably over the last 10 years?---Yes, they have. And - do you want me to - - -
PN1349
That was my early question?---The reason why is that our child care workers now have to program for children so we have to check their program and help them with those sorts of things as well. With the licensing standards, they're much more specific about safety issues and occupational health and safety things and training and things like that, so that's one of the big changes that we've had to the workload.
PN1350
So you have - you actually monitor a lot closer?---Yes, yes.
**** BARBARA DEACON XXN MS WILSON
PN1351
Because you don't actually undertake those duties yourself?---I don't undertake, I supervise the people that do that.
PN1352
Okay. I refer to paragraphs 35 and 37 and there's a list of - there's two courses that you've undertaken. Were these your own - on your own initiative or were these required as part of the job description of being the family day care coordinator?---Which courses are you talking about?
PN1353
You've got the first aid certificate; workplace assessor training course; managing finances, setting and achieving a budget?---Okay, the senior first aid certificate, I have to have a current one as part of my job. The workplace assessor training, I needed to do that as part of my job as well because I'm supervising child care workers in the workplace and sometimes have to assess their work for traineeships and things. And the managing finances and setting and achieving budgets was part of my Bachelor of the Children's Services degree.
PN1354
PN1355
MR MORPHETT: Only one quick question please. You just mentioned a Senior First Aid qualification. Who required you to have a senior first aid qualification?---My employer has required us - - -
PN1356
Your employer - - - ?--- - - - to have Senior First Aid certificate, yes.
PN1357
Sorry, I cut you off?---Yes, my employer has - and I think Licensing - Licensing certainly, for the child care workers, says that they must have a Senior First Aid certificate but it's part of my employment that I must have one.
**** BARBARA DEACON XXN MR MORPHETT
PN1358
Right, so it's part of your employment under - - - ?---Mm.
PN1359
Okay. I put it to you that it isn't actually a requirement under Licensing to have a Senior First Aid certificate for child care workers?---Yes, but in my job statement, my job statement actually states that I must have a current Senior First Aid certificate.
PN1360
In your job statement, okay?---Yes.
PN1361
Thank you.
PN1362
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination?
PN1363
MS BELLINO: No, re-examination, thank you.
PN1364
PN1365
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Till 3.30, will that be sufficient? I'm not sure how far away it is? All right, we'll adjourn until then.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.18pm]
RESUMED [3.35pm]
PN1366
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Yes, Ms Wilson?
PN1367
MS WILSON: Our first witness is Amanda Colbran.
PN1368
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I should have asked you this before, Ms Bellino, but I take it you have one witness left, Ms Brunskill and Ms Crump's statement has been withdrawn, is that the position?
PN1369
MS BELLINO: That's correct. Ms Brunskill will be here at 9 o'clock in the morning.
PN1370
PN1371
MS WILSON: Ms Colbran, would you please state your full name and address?---Amanda Ruth Colbran, living at 10 Cerutty Crescent, Gordon, ACT, 2906.
PN1372
What is your current place of employment?---Communities at Work in Tuggeranong.
PN1373
Have you prepared a written statement for these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN1374
Do you recognise this written statement?---Yes, it has my signature and my initials on each page.
PN1375
Are there any changes you would like to make to this statement?---Not at this point, no.
PN1376
Is this statement true and correct?---I believe so.
PN1377
I tender the statement of Amanda Colbran.
PN1378
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I mark Ms Colbran's statement as exhibit EACT1.
PN1379
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1380
MS BELLINO: Ms Colbran, I am from the union and I am just going to ask you a few questions. Would you have a look at point 6 in the statement and I quote, "I believe the child care industry has changed significantly since 1990". Can you please explain how the child care industry has changed significantly?---Since that time there have been upgrades in the qualifications so there's been additional modules as each upgrade has occurred. Staff have been required to - well, students have been required to study additional modules.
PN1381
Can you explain which courses that happened to?---Studying at the TAFE, a child care certificate. The studies covered the years for two years and didn't have a neo-natal area so to come up to the associate diploma which was then the upgrade, they required to study modules that covered that neo-natal component. And then after the associate diploma there was the diploma and there was an upgrade again which required more modules to bring them up to that level. If they had the associate diploma and they wanted to gain the diploma they had to study those modules.
PN1382
So, that was extra study on top?---Yes.
PN1383
Can I ask you to have a look at point 7 in your statement. You say that, "As with other professions training within the child care industry means that individuals themselves take responsibility and undertake their formal training on their own merits"?---Yes.
PN1384
In your experience when employees have completed their qualifications are they able to provide a better quality of child care work?---It depends on the role and what they've studied. I mean, if they've studied qualifications that aren't relevant to their workplace then perhaps that doesn't necessarily change their work practice.
PN1385
What about certificate III, if an employee has completed certificate III?---And they haven't had any other experience, they've just studied?
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1386
We'll actually break that up. If an employee has a certificate III and they've been working in the industry for twelve months, what benefits would there be for them to complete certificate III?---They would understand the theory and the efforts behind their programming practice and particularly the observation techniques and in so doing they would be able to support their team leader in the room in their record keeping certainly. But there can also be on the job training where staff who have been working in the centre are supported by their director and team leader. If they are needing some assistance to build up those skills then they could still be equivalent to someone who has done the certificate because of their experience in the workplace.
PN1387
So is what you're saying that it could be the case that a worker who has been in the industry for ten years might be able to undertake programming and observations to a high level of skill?---Yes.
PN1388
And a worker who has only been in the industry for 12 months with a certificate III might also be able to undertake those skills to a higher level?---It has been our experience that those who have worked and had the practise have more experience than somebody who has - for a short time because you've explained, you know, that they've just done their training and they may have had up to two years experience then, yes.
PN1389
In point 7 of your statement, the second sentence, you talk about how communities at work introduced a trainee position in each centre last year, can you explain what this means?---We found to support the centre for continuity of care and particularly the number of regular hours we were using to get casual staff, that there was the ability to put in training position and have on the job training and also have that flexibility where they can work across the centre and learn and gather that experience to support their studies.
PN1390
Does that training do on the job work and training and study?---Yes.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1391
And who would supervise them during the day?---The team leader and the director and we also have an assistant director position in the centre so they would be the three supervisors. But if their training is working in a room for that time period they would be under the direction of that supervisor or the team leader in that room.
PN1392
If I finished my traineeship or my cadetship what qualification would I have?---Certificate III.
PN1393
And what classification level would a worker from Communities at Work who has finished the certificate III be put into the classification structure?---In our current structure they would be coming under the level 2.
PN1394
Can I ask you to have a look at point 9 of your statement. You talk about the utilisation trends of child care and how this has impacted on staff requiring to program for a large number of children. Can I ask you to explain what you mean there?---We found a real shift, particularly in the utilisation where families were using a full week and so there seemed to be a trend to break that down into quiet time, meaning we had more children in the centre and if I can explain it for an example, in a playroom, a preschool room, we might cater for 22 places, they're licensed places, so what I am describing is instead of having the same 22 children attending Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, we could have one of those places instead of them going the whole week, could be taken up by, say, three or even four children because there was a break down to part-time work. Families were starting to do more job share and so children would attend in that one place. There could be a child who comes on a Monday, there could be a child then who comes Tuesday, Wednesday and then there could be a child who comes Thursday, Friday. So there's actually three children for one place.
PN1395
So, essentially there could be 42 children - the centre could be licensed for 42 children but could have 68 children in any one week?---Yes.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1396
Could I ask you what impact this would have on the workers in the centre?---That has had an impact in the program planned experiences because of our record keeping on individual observations and the focussed children - that we're linking their activities and their experiences through the day, then into the activities that the staff provide them for their program.
PN1397
Has that increased the workload of staff in particular rooms?---It has but it's cyclical. It's not wide across every single room. You know, each year when you do your enrolments you will notice that there can be a trend in a particular room where there will be more part time children and so then you follow up with those staff on how you are going to manage that.
PN1398
And if I worked in a room and I had 15 children in any one week that might normally only be licensed for 8 children, what impact would that have on your staff on a daily basis?---We're still going to run the same routines. It would be that the observations that they're taking of the children so that would be the impact on how they're going to manage the observations and record keeping so that then the team leader can sit down and go through those plans. So there certainly is an increase in documentation.
PN1399
Would I need to ensure that a child that only attended that room for one or two days a week integrated properly into the group when they attended on those one or two days?---Could you repeat the question again?
PN1400
Certainly. If I had a child that visited the centre one day a week as opposed to five days a week, would the child care worker need to ensure that that child integrated into the group more carefully?---Sure. Although can I add that generally the trend is for the full time children have - because I suppose their regularity of the centre, they have a lot more opportunity to observe those children compared to say, a part time child. So, their main focus - it depends on how that service is running, their record keeping on their focus children for that. They might only do full documentation for that one child who comes one day a week and that could be done, say, once a month or so forth. It's not necessarily done every single week, the formal documentation.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1401
Can I ask you, at point 10 in your statement you talk about an outcome of this was to identify a stronger career path for employees. Can I ask you how you did this?---You want me to explain the review?
PN1402
No, how you identified a stronger career path for employees?
PN1403
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Do you mean what issues they have taken to establish a stronger career path?
PN1404
MS BELLINO: Yes, sorry.
PN1405
THE WITNESS: Okay, what we've actually looked at, particularly through the management and the administration of a centre, that certainly the demands of - when I say manager, our staff who are directors, are actually referred to as managers so I am actually talking about a director overseeing a centre when I say manager. It was to support their role and also to train. We noticed that there was becoming quite a large gap between a team leader position and obviously somebody who was qualified to maybe in the future apply for a director position. So, we saw it fit to look at ways that we can build on the job training and also opportunities for staff to build up that support for the manager but also for their own chosen career to maybe take on more confidently a director's position.
PN1406
But you didn't write a new career structure for workers so that they could progress through a structure?---At the moment it was at management because we were doing a certified agreement with the managers and so it was part of their agreement and our children's services group, their agreement is up for next year so we'd be looking at that pathway coming through from the agreement.
PN1407
Will that pathway be looking at recognition of qualifications for workers who have completed certificate III?---It will be looking at that particular level, level 2. Those were certificate III and/or experience.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1408
Currently, communities at work don't fully care about level 3, do they?---No, not at the moment.
PN1409
So, could that be one thing you might potentially be reviewing next year during - - -?---We do have two staff who have their level 3 qualifications, the old triple C, and they are, at the moment, studying for their diploma.
PN1410
Thank you. Is your triple C currently recognised under the licensing?---Yes, I have a variation to licensing because they are currently studying and they gave evidence to satisfy that approval for our license.
PN1411
Could I ask you to look at point 11 in your statement?---Yes.
PN1412
Are you familiar with the application, the union application before the Commission?---Yes.
PN1413
Could I ask you to have a look at the application?---I don't have it with me. Thank you. Yes?
PN1414
Could you just talk about point 11. In your experience you're at work with colleagues who have no formal qualifications but have extensive experience and we've gone over that a little bit just before?---Sure.
PN1415
Can you have a look at level 3, so CC3 in the centre based stream proposed by the union?---Yes.
PN1416
Do you think that that level recognises the qualifications or the level of experience of workers?---Yes, I do. When I made that point I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't lost, that there certainly are staff in our services who have no indication that they wanted to continue their studies but they are very experienced and I just made that point.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1417
Great. So if a classification structure built in the recognition of qualifications and/or relevant experience, that would meet your concern in point 11?---Yes.
PN1418
Thank you. Can I ask you to just go to point 12 in your statement?---Mm.
PN1419
You raise some concerns in relation to the introduction of three streams, and you say that it would be beneficial for career pathways to be under one stream?---Mm.
PN1420
You've heard some evidence today from workers in the three streams who say that they like the three streams?---Mm.
PN1421
Could I ask you to comment on that?---Well, my reason to - to note was that in our centres we do have staff who work in the mornings at a centre and in the afternoon they go to a school-age care program in particular. We have a lot more probably partnership through those two streams more so than crossing over to family day care. So - - -
PN1422
So, would those staff who cross over between the centre-based stream and the and the school-age care stream be holding the same qualifications that apply to both streams?---That's correct.
PN1423
So, if they had a diploma, that was being utilised in the centre-based stream?---Mm.
PN1424
Would that diploma be paid for in the school-age care stream?---I believe so.
PN1425
So, if that worker had - didn't have a qualification but had the level of experience that you've been talking about in the centre based stream - - -?---Mm.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1426
- - - and they want to the school-age stream, would they be completing - sorry - let me just rephrase that. Would their level of experience be recognised in the school-age care stream?---Yes, but not in a qualified position.
PN1427
I'm not sure what you mean by "not in" - - -?---You were just saying to me that if a staff member with experience.
PN1428
Mm?---I thought you meant that it was - it was a person without qualifications but they had experience going across to school-age care.
PN1429
That's correct. So, if you looked at CC3 - - -?---Mm.
PN1430
Maybe if we do it more practically. Look at CC3 of a centre-based stream of the application?---Mm.
PN1431
A worker here could be responsible for reporting observations - - -?---Mm.
PN1432
- - - and/or planning for children?---Mm.
PN1433
And then if you just go over to the school-age care stream - it's two pages over?---Yes.
PN1434
A CC3 - - -?---Yes.
PN1435
- - - would be responsible for reporting observations and for planning?---Yes, that would be fine, but I was confused when you referred to qualifications because qualifications in licensing is diploma and above, it's not certificate III.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1436
But the same would be for a certificate III worker under the structure before you. Isn't that the case?---Yes. Yes. They can go across and work in school-age care and centre - fine - as a level 2.
PN1437
As a level 2? I think under the structure before you it's a level 3?---Sorry. Yes. Under - under this one - your proposal - it's a - it's a level 3, but in the current structure I'm talking about it's a level 2.
PN1438
Right. Thank you. So, you support the - the evidence that's been given from workers today that they may be able to translate easily between the three streams if there was consistency?---Yes, I do.
PN1439
Thank you. I just direct you to point 12 again, dot point 2. You talk about the inconsistency of the classification titles across the career streams?---Mm.
PN1440
Have you spoken to workers in the different streams about this point?---Yes, there has been some feedback, yes. The point raised there was - again referring back to if a staff member was working in the morning, they were one title, and then working in the afternoon it was a different title. But also the - the reflection when you have in the proposal you have given the copy to me, I'm thinking of the early childhood educator levels, and yet then in school-age care it seems then it's team leader level. No - sorry - it's School-Age Care Employee Level 4. Is that where I'm reading right?
PN1441
No. It's level 3 I think?---So, CC4 - Early Childhood Educator Level 2, and CC3 - Early Childhood Educator Level 1.
PN1442
Sorry. No. CC4 is Early Childhood Educator Level 4. Is that what you're looking at?---Yes. And then if I go to school-age care - CC4, school-age care employee.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1443
Yes?---Well, why could they not necessarily be, say, educator there too? Why - why does it say "employee"?
PN1444
Can I put it to you that union members were surveyed extensively on the titles to those three structures, and it appeared that workers in the school-age care stream preferred those titles to the school-age care worker?---No. I wasn't - I didn't know the outcome of the survey.
PN1445
Well, I put it to you as well that from the extensive surveys we did of workers in centre-based stream, they overwhelmingly supported the early childhood educator title?---No.
PN1446
Can I just direct you to point 13 of your statement. You say that you've examined the employer's proposed classification structure and you support the proposed structure because it reflects the points you raise above?---Mm.
PN1447
Can I ask you, do you support the classification structure in so much as it reduces the number of levels in the child care classification structure currently eight in the award down to six?---Yes. It also appears less complicated - the proposal that we - the employees are put through.
PN1448
But given your comments previously about a stronger career path for employees, do you think a structure that reduces the number of levels from eight to six recognises the concerns that you've raised about a stronger career path?---Yes I do because you would write that into then the - the roles and the responsibilities under the classifications of those levels.
PN1449
But how would that help workers have a career path to move through?---It would be a career path.
PN1450
But would it increase the numbers of classification levels for workers to move through?---I think it would be appropriate the way it's proposed.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1451
Okay. I put it to you that there's been some evidence in a witness statement today that suggests that that's not an appropriate structure?---Mm.
PN1452
Could I ask you to look at the proposed draft alternate structure. And if you're not sure where that is, that's at page 22 of the respondent's submissions.
PN1453
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I think the witness has got it. Thank you.
PN1454
MS BELLINO: I think that there's initially a different one, which is another page on the employer submissions. That's at - - -
PN1455
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: That's at page 22, the one you're thinking about?
PN1456
MS BELLINO: Yes. I'm actually just looking for which page that is on your submissions.
PN1457
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Do you have a copy?
PN1458
MR MORPHETT: Yes. If it please the Commission, it's at tab H of the application.
PN1459
MS BELLINO: Can I ask you specifically about the title. Do you support the change of titles to child care professional?---Yes, I do.
PN1460
Thank you. Can I ask you about the proposal to have a Child Care Professional Level 3?---Yes.
PN1461
These would be workers who currently have a diploma in children's services. Is that correct?---The point I'm looking at is point 48, and it just gives me the title.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1462
So, yes, it's tab H, and it's on the back of that?---Okay.
PN1463
Sorry. Yes. So, workers at that level would have an AQF diploma in Children's Services?---And we're looking at Child Care Professional Level 3?
PN1464
Yes?---Yes.
PN1465
It says there, "or equivalent or sufficient knowledge or experience to perform the duties". Do you know what those duties or experience would be?---It's a team leader in charge of a room responsible for programming and planning implementation of that program, supervision of staff and building a positive, stimulating environment for the children, interacting with the families and other associates within that room, and responsible to the director of the centre.
PN1466
Can I ask you to just look over the page before, Child Care Professional Level 2?---Yes.
PN1467
Can I ask you what duties or experience would be required for a worker to progress to level 2 in this classification structure?---Progress to level 2 from level 1?
PN1468
Or be appointed at level 2?---So, if I describe their - their duties, their role?
PN1469
Yes, "the higher duties that would be required", it says, "and sufficient knowledge or experience to perform these duties"?---Okay. With the experience, we are looking at up to two years in child care, and during that - in children's services. So, it might be experience in family day care, school-age care, not just in a centre.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1470
Mm?---And the duties that they would be following up is to support the team leader under their direction to plan for a program. So, their key role is to observe and maintain the record-keeping of those observations for the team leader under supervision; being able to coordinate group activities. And all of that is through consultation with the team leader and followed through from this program that they provide.
PN1471
And did you say that you thought that they would need two years experience to be able to get to that level?---With the trainees and the actual implications now of the changing of training, we're finding that people are able to gain that experience a lot earlier. So, up until now we have had to, yes, but we're finding with the training that's available on-line, flexible learning, workplace assessments and so forth, that they can pick up that information quite quickly.
PN1472
So, a worker undertaking training is picking up that - that very quickly?---Mm.
PN1473
Are they picking it up quicker than someone who doesn't have - isn't undertaking that training?---All our staff are training. It's on-the-job training all the time. I mean, if you're talking about a certain procedure and so forth, and we need to follow up that routine properly, then, you know, that sort of training is happening all the time. So, it might not be formal training but it's - - -
PN1474
I'm just trying to clarify what you said just before in relation to two years in children's services to get to that level. Do you mean that a worker has to be employed for two years before they go to level 2?---No.
PN1475
No. Okay. Can I ask you just to have a look at that level 2 as well where you've got, "at the fourth increment an employee must hold old triple C qualification or equivalent as a minimum"?---Mm.
PN1476
Do you know if this qualification is still being taught?---No, I don't know.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1477
Right. I put it to you that this qualification ended over 12 years ago?---Mm.
PN1478
Are you aware if there's any workers in your facility who have that qualification?---Yes. I mentioned earlier that I have two staff at the moment with that qualification - the triple C.
PN1479
Out of how many staff?---At this point when I recorded my information, I recorded 98 staff.
PN1480
So, two of 98 had that qualification?---That I'm aware of.
PN1481
That you're aware of. Right. Do you think it's appropriate to put that qualification in this classification structure and say that an employee must have that qualification, given it no longer exists? Do you think that assists the career advancement for workers who enter this industry?---Although it's not available for study, certainly, as I said, there are some staff in the services that must still have that qualification. So, at the moment they are working as level 2s. Unless - if they're wanting to do a team leader type of role, then they've got to do that diploma - study for the diploma to be able to be the team leader. So, then we have to get the variation. So, I don't know. There might be more triple C staff out there that I know about that aren't actually using it because they're not wanting to be team leaders.
PN1482
But this - does this suggest that you would have the triple C to be a team leader?---No.
PN1483
So, on the figures that you know, two of your 98 workers have the triple C certificate?---As far as I'm aware. But that's only because they're wanting to be team leaders and so therefore they need to get that extra study for the diploma.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1484
Okay. So, do you think that it's fair to put qualification in at that level that was eliminated over 12 years ago? Do you think that assists workers in the industry now?---It - it's actually noted, so it's recorded, so staff who have that qualification can see that it's still noted, but it's not seen as a qualified position, no.
PN1485
But is it fair that 96 of your current 98 staff could never get to that level because as far as you're aware they don't have that qualification?---No, that's not fair.
PN1486
Thank you. Are you aware of the Australian qualifications frameworks training?---Not in full detail.
PN1487
That's fine. Thank you. I have no further questions.
PN1488
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Re-examination?
PN1489
PN1490
MS WILSON: Are you aware whether or not there's any other qualification available within the training for the child care, for that industry, one that is equal to the triple C at this stage?---No.
PN1491
No. And are your other 96 staff able to do the certificate III and then the diploma?---Yes.
PN1492
So that within the structure that the respondents propose, they can actually skip over without any trouble at that level within the structure?---That's correct.
**** AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN RXN MS WILSON
PN1493
If they don't have the triple C requirement?---Yes.
PN1494
PN1495
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Ms Wilson, who is your next witness?
PN1496
PN1497
MS WILSON: Ms Dau, could you please state your full name and address?---Elizabeth Audrey Dau of 5 Alexandra Street, Prospect in the city of Adelaide.
PN1498
And what is your current place of employment?---I am self-employed as an early childhood consultant.
PN1499
Have you prepared a written statement for today's hearing?---I have.
PN1500
Do you recognise this written statement?---I do, that is my statement.
PN1501
Are there any changes you would like to make to the statement?---No, no changes.
PN1502
Is your statement true and correct?---It's true and correct.
PN1503
I tender the statement of Elizabeth Dau.
PN1504
PN1505
MS WILSON: No further questions.
PN1506
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1507
MS BELLINO: Hi, Ms Dau. My name is Sue Bellino. I'm from the union. I'm just going to ask you a few questions?---Yes.
PN1508
Can I ask you to have a look at point 12 of your statement? You say, and I quote, "I believe the child care industry has changed since 1990 in many ways, including there is a far greater demand for child care and child care is recognised as something to which families are entitled. The increase obviously has to do with the increase in work participation", end quote. Can you give me any other examples of ways that the child care has changed since 1990?---There are a number of ways. Certainly in terms of training, there has been substantial changes to the child care profession. With the new training packages there is a great deal of emphasis on workplace and workplace assessment and I believe that child care professionals have been asked to take on a role, so to speak of trainers. They have a much greater responsibility for training than in the past. It's changed in terms of demand. There is a huge demand, including unmet demand, for child care. It's also changed in terms of accountability with national standards and with the accreditation process, and in terms of accountability to families who have a much greater role now in child care services than before. For example, there's an expectation that services will work very closely with families in terms of the accreditation process.
PN1509
Could I ask you specifically in relation to the qualifications changes, can you elaborate on what you meant there?---In terms of the move from what was curriculum to national training packages where training occurred around a curriculum, there was very little liaison between training organisations and the child care field. With the introduction of training packages, the emphasis in terms of assessment is very much more on the job assessment and child care services are involved to some degree or other - I can't speak specifically for the ACT on this matter because it's a while since I worked in TAFE in the ACT. But certainly from my experience in South Australia, the child care staff and certainly team leaders and directors are very much more involved in that assessment.
PN1510
Can I ask you specifically about the AQF certificate III? Are you familiar with that?---Certainly, yes.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1511
There's been some evidence today that the AQF certificate III is the same as the triple C certificate, the Child Care Practices certificate?---Are we talking about the triple C which was the two year - - -
PN1512
No, the child care - the basic Child Care Practices certificate?---I'm sorry, I don't know that certificate at all, unless it's a certificate by another name.
PN1513
Sorry, it was the certificate in place before the AQF structure prior to 1990?---In the ACT?
PN1514
Yes?---My memory is that that was a 12 month certificate.
PN1515
Right, thank you. Can I ask you to look at point 15 in your statement? You say that, and I quote, "I also believe that duties and responsibilities of workers within the industry have increased", end quote. Can I ask you to elaborate on that point?---I think I've probably covered some of it, but certainly the duties and responsibilities in relation to - well, there are a number of areas. In relation to families and family involvement, I think that has increased a lot. I think families themselves now are far more knowledgeable than they would have been in 1990 about what the indicators of quality are. I think parents are far more - families are far more prepared to have a voice in terms of children's services. I think the introduction of accreditation has strengthened the profession. I'm not suggesting that there's a - yes, it has strengthened the profession and the - and there are added responsibilities, I believe, because of accreditation.
PN1516
Right, thank you. Could I ask you to go point 18 of your statement? You say at the beginning, "Child care training has changed since 1990". Can you give some specifics of how it has changed since 1990?---Well, specifically there I was talking about the change from curriculum to the change to the training packages, where children's services are far more involved now in training the profession than they ever have been in the past.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1517
Are there more modules involved in the current AQF certificate III and diploma courses than previously?---I can't comment on how - I was trying to recall the hours in the previous diploma and I can't, so I can't talk about equivalence in hours, but I can say that certainly there are more modules, more competencies, than there ever were modules, and there are some additional ones that were not part of training previously, and they include things like diversity in all its forms, it includes mandated notification - I'm just trying to think what else. But there are, I know, a number of additional subjects or competencies that we expect students to complete.
PN1518
Do you know when those changes took place?---19 - I'm going to have to think now - testing me. I think it was nineteen ninety - 1997, 1998. I'm just trying to recall how long it is that I've been right into the competencies. I think it's about that time.
PN1519
That's fine, thank you. In point 19 of your statement you talk about, "There are some 59 competencies in diploma qualification and while there is some duplication, this means that there are far more subjects than in the associate diploma". Can you elaborate on that?---Yes, that's what I was just talking about, yes.
PN1520
So if I was at work and had the associate diploma, I would have to undertake more study, would I, to complete to my diploma?---That depends on what state or territory you're in. In South Australia if you had an associate diploma and wanted to access the national diploma, I would want to know that you'd done certificate IV workplace training and had a number of years working in the profession, in order to give you the equivalent. But I'm not sure what happens in the ACT. But certainly you have to do something before you can access the new national diploma.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1521
I direct you to point 22 of your statement. You say, and I quote, "Given the extreme shortage of qualified staff across Australia, people are being pressured, requested and not necessarily choose to apply for a qualified position", end quote. Can I ask you to explain what that means?---There is a huge shortage and there is a great deal of pressure on many staff to become qualified in the quickest possible way in order to meet licensing standards. There's often pressure I think from directors who can't meet those standards to apply for exemptions, and so there are people who are working in those positions a long time before - much earlier than they would have otherwise and before they've internalised a lot of the training. I think there's a great deal of stress in the industry because of that.
PN1522
Can I ask you to comment on why you think there is such a huge shortage of qualified staff across the country, in your opinion?---I can't go past the salary and - the wages and conditions. I can't go past that. And the pressure under which staff work. It is a very stressful job working with young children. It's a very - a critically important job. And I think people - I can use anecdotal evidence, I was talking to some people in a child care centre just recently and one of the staff was leaving and the director was very distressed because this staff member had been very good, and I said to her, "Why are you leaving?", and she said, "I've been offered a senior position, which means I'm not 16 at McDonald's, and I'm going to be earning a lot more money". And I said, "But you love it here". She said, "Well, I love the children. I have a passion for children. But I can't afford to. And when they're paying more for me in that sort of situation, then I'm going to go".
PN1523
So do you think that an increase in the wages would go some way to resolving this issue?---I think if we don't increase the wages, we're going to be in big trouble.
PN1524
Thank you. Can I ask you to have a look at point 23 of your statement, you talk about the profession having an increased role in training staff?---Mm.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1525
Do you mean that workers currently employed in the centres would undertake the role of training staff?---The - with the increase of training packages and the increased assessment on the job many of the staff are. And I understand in the ACT that that is even more so because of the situation with trainees where staff do have added responsibilities because they have students, in inverted commas, in the services for much greater periods of time.
PN1526
Do you think that those staff who do have the responsibility for training and assessing those students should be paid at a higher rate in recognition for those skills?---We've said that for a long time because university students do. But, no, I don't think necessarily so because it's such an important part. Field placement has always been an important part of training. It is even more important now with the new requirements for assessment under the training packages. But, no, I don't - if wages were increased I would suggest not. If we got to a position where the only way anybody who was doing those extra duties could gain access to some more money, than I would say so.
PN1527
And can I ask you about a worker who has completed an AQF certificate III?---Yes.
PN1528
Would they have advanced skills and would they have learned more skills undertaking an AQF certificate III?---Certainly.
PN1529
Can you explain to me - - -?---Certainly.
PN1530
- - - what skills they - - -?---Absolutely.
PN1531
- - - they'd learn?---Well, you'll find that there will be some people who are, a rare occasion, innately wonderful child care professionals. But having been reinvolved in workplace - assessment in the workplace for a long time, I've assessed a lot of people in the workplace for a certificate III and certainly there have been very few that have accessed the total certificate, I could count them on one hand, in a number of years. But people who study - I mean, if they give a year to study then certainly there is increased knowledge and increased skill.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1532
Can you provide any detail of what that increased knowledge or skill would be?---Well, I think even for the person that I talked about who is an innately outstanding child care professional, there are still some areas of training that are really critical and a lot of that has to do with underpinning knowledge. I might be able to present myself as a very good and competent child care professional but do I actually have the underpinning knowledge? And very few people do unless they've been involved in a lot of staff development and a lot of reading, that would be an exceptional person.
PN1533
So, a worker would get some of that underpinning knowledge, in your opinion, if they completed further studies?---Certainly. Certainly.
PN1534
Okay. So, that would be supported in point 24 of your statement where you say that: "I believe that a worker who is willing to spend the equivalent of one year of full time study to improve his or her skills should have that acknowledged". Can I ask you specifically what you mean by that?---Well, I think somebody who's completed certificate III should be in a position to apply for a position at that level and therefore gain access to their career paths - to a career path.
PN1535
Great. Can I ask you what you mean by gaining access to a level?---Well, I'm assuming that if I'm a director of a child care centre, for example, and everybody's gone off and done certificate III then I'm not going to have necessarily positions for those people.
PN1536
Mm?---But somebody who has certificate III should be able to access that level.
PN1537
So, do you mean that there should be a level in the award classification as such - - -?---Yes.
PN1538
- - - that recognise certificate III?---Yes. Yes.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1539
Great, thank you. Can I ask you in relation to point 27 of your statement, you make some comments in relation to the union's application, do you have a copy of that in front of you?---No, I don't. I did have it in my bag though, I think. Yes, I do.
PN1540
I think it would be - - -?---Good, thank you. That's easier than mine. Thank you.
PN1541
Can I ask you to look at the centre based stream, the first page, specifically at CC III and the minimum training requirement two columns over, do you support a classification structure where the AQF certificate III is recognised in the classification structure?---Yes, I do.
PN1542
Great, thank you. Can I ask you to look at CC IV and ask you the same question, do you support a classification structure that recognises AQF certificate IV?---I have a problem with certificate IV in that there is very little difference, from my perspective, between the certificate III and certificate IV in terms of the number of competencies. My personal preference would be for a certificate III and then the next level is a diploma.
PN1543
Sorry, I didn't get the bit at the end?---My preference would be a structure that recognises certificate III and then recognises the diploma.
PN1544
And I just wanted to ask you then about the national training packages?---Mm.
PN1545
There is currently a certificate IV in some states?---Certainly there is, in some states, yes, I understand. It's not my experience in South Australia, certificate IV is not offered.
PN1546
No, but it is offered in other states, in your experience?---I have heard, yes.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1547
Great, thank you. Can I ask you to look at then at CC V and again over the minimum training requirement, do you support a level in the classification structure that recognises workers on attainment of diploma?---Yes.
PN1548
You've made some comments in point 27 of your statement in relation to the names of the titles?---Yes.
PN1549
Is that your main area of concern with the application?---Yes. I have been an advocate for many years for the children's services field to come together. I have been - and I know that the word, "industry", must be used but I have advocated for a long while for people in the early childhood field to start calling themselves professionals and I think that an award that acknowledges that name would be hugely beneficial to children's services. I think it would indeed help raise the status.
PN1550
Can I just put it to you that child care union members in the ACT were surveyed extensively about the titles in the awards that they wanted and that was the most popular title, can I ask you to comment on that?---I'm surprised, actually. I ran a conference in the ACT last year and - or was it the year before, time goes too quickly - and there were a number of speakers who addressed the issue of names and the response I felt was overwhelmingly in terms of a title that reflected the importance, the huge importance, of working with young children. So, I am surprised by that.
PN1551
Thank you. Can I ask you then to go to point 29 of your statement where you say: "I've been an advocate for many years for changes to the salary rates for people working with young children", can you talk generally about the latest research and the extensive longitudinal study in the UK, can you give some details about that latest research?---I don't have it actually in front of me but it's a longitudinal study that's been done over something like 14 years in the United Kingdom and is now a well recognised piece of research, well publicised and spoken about in Australia, that looked at the years before school. And we know that the quality of care that children receive is absolutely critical in terms of the outcomes for children in later - in later years. We also know now
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
without a doubt that if children come from a background that is less than optimum that if they are in services of a very high quality then the - those disadvantages can be very quickly ameliorated. But we also know that if they go into a centre of less quality that in fact it's a double whammy, if I may use that expression, for those children. So, there's been huge research around the absolutely critical nature of the work that people who work in the child care profession do. And I think it has - and I think we need to recognise that by paying them more appropriately.
PN1552
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Now, would you be able to provide a copy, presumably the longitudinal study has been published?---I certainly can, yes.
PN1553
Yes, well, there's - you can do it?---I can do that, yes.
PN1554
But perhaps through either Ms Wilson or Mr Morphett would be the most appropriate way of doing it?---Yes. Yes, I will make a note to do that.
PN1555
Thank you.
PN1556
MS BELLINO: Right, thank you.
PN1557
Can I ask you then about that research, would you say that having more workers in the child care industry qualified and undertaking study would benefit children in respect to that research?---Without asking - we'd certainly at least need to be able to meet the licensing standards in terms of the number of qualified staff that we have.
PN1558
Great, thank you - - -?---I do - I am concerned about services that are run on exemptions and that children aren't being cared for by people who are appropriately qualified.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1559
Do you know if there are any exemptions in the ACT?---No, but I did hear today that they're - from the Office of Child care who didn't give me the numbers - but there are a lot.
PN1560
In the ACT?---Yes.
PN1561
All right, thank you. Can I just ask you to have a look at the employer's joint proposed classification structure, it's in - you refer to it in point 30 of your statement, can I ask you some questions about this structure, specifically, can we go to level 1 where you have a Child Care Professional Level 1?---Yes.
PN1562
Do you think it's fair after two years experience in the industry that a worker would be on level 1 of the classification structure?---Two years experience, still as a Child Care Professional Level 1 but with an increase acknowledging the number of years experience.
PN1563
So, you think that it's - - -?---I think that that's - I don't have a problem with that, if that person wanted to move up the structure then now they have - people have much greater access, or they certainly should, have much greater access to workplace assessment which would allow them to be assessed and the skills that they've developed in those couple of years are then acknowledged in terms of the next level of training, if that's what they choose to go to, certificate III. So, people would be making a decision, I can remain as somebody who's a Child Care Professional Level 1 for two years or if after 12 months I feel really comfortable about my work, I'm getting very positive feedback from other staff, I can choose to do workplace assessment and that will count towards the certificate III.
PN1564
So you think that certificate III should be recognised in the classification structure then?---Certainly, yes.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1565
Can I ask you to look at Child Care Professional Level 2 level, specifically the fourth increment in the proposed award rate column?---Can I comment please, as I said in my - in my statement, in relation to the pay increased proposed by the employees in this proposed child care structure, I am very pleased to comment on the structure, very happy to comment on the structure, but I would rather make no comment on the level of salary.
PN1566
Other than what you've made in 31 which you - - -?---Other than that in which I say I believe the salaries in this proposal could have been greater. And I don't wish to make any other comment or answer.
PN1567
I won't ask you any then?---Thank you.
PN1568
I'll have a look at the proposed award rate, not for the salary, but if you go to point 4 where the proposed structure says that "the employee must hold the old triple C qualification or" - - -?---I beg your pardon. Yes.
PN1569
- - - "minimum as" - sorry - "or equivalent as a minimum". Do you know what that means?---It means the child care certificate - triple C it was called - which was a two-year qualification. And I understand there are still people in the ACT who hold that qualification.
PN1570
Mm. Do you know when that qualification was last actually undertaken?---It would have been early 1990s I would think.
PN1571
Can I put it to you that it was before 1990?---Okay. I came to Canberra in - yes, you're quite right. I beg your pardon. It would have been before 1990, yes. I - I questioned that - the triple C qualification still being in there - because I believe anybody who has a triple C should have accessed workplace assessment and - and accessed a diploma. But I do understand that there are still people in the ACT who hold that, and I'm not sure how licensing view that - if licensing see it as an appropriate qualification.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1572
Mm. Can I ask you just to elaborate on your comment then in relation to you think that those workers with a triple C should have access to upgrading to the diploma. What did you mean by that?---They have access - somebody who's got a triple C. I would think it would be in their interests to - to because they're not - it is - it was - it was a two-year qualification, and with some bridging where people were able to access the diploma. So, what we're saying now here is a two-year qualification, okay, is in the same - is in the Child Care Professional Level 2, which is the AQ - it's the certificate III. So, we're not saying it's equivalent to the diploma by any means. What we're doing is acknowledging that it still exists.
PN1573
Mm. Do you think it's fair to put that qualification in a classification structure, given that very few workers in the industry have access to it?---Nobody has - well, very few people would hold it now, but it does say "or equivalent as a minimum".
PN1574
Do you know what the equivalent qualification would be?---I don't know. It could - no, I don't. I don't.
PN1575
So, do you - - -?---If I had - if I was asked to give, now to give - I wouldn't because it's a little bit too old, but probably the certificate IV. But, no, I can't say that. I can't say that.
PN1576
Right. Thank you. Can I ask you then - given that any employee after 1988 wouldn't be able to get that qualification, do you think it's fair to put it as a level in a classification structure?---That would be I would think - I would - yes, I think it is, and I think probably that's a place where you could put "certificate IV".
PN1577
So, it may be the case that that needs to be upgraded?---Given that certificate IV - yes, given that certificate IV does exist in the - in the ACT. I would think that certificate IV would go there.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1578
Do you - are you familiar at all with the Metals Industry Award?---No.
PN1579
Are you familiar with - - -?---Only - only by hearsay, not by - not by any - yes.
PN1580
Are you familiar with relativities at all under that award?---I have certainly heard about relativities, and I know that that's - that's something that's usually considered in a hearing such as this, in a case such as this.
PN1581
Okay. Would you be able to or be comfortable commenting on the third column, which is a comparison with metals relativity - - -?---No.
PN1582
MR MORPHETT: I object, Commissioner.
PN1583
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: The witness has said no, so that's fine.
PN1584
MS BELLINO: I'm asking the question, that's all?
PN1585
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: No.
PN1586
Do you think that a worker who has achieved an AQF diploma in one industry should be paid the same as a worker who has achieved an AQF diploma in another industry?---No.
PN1587
Can I ask why?---Because I think that they are totally different potentially - totally different, and I think that - I don't think you can compare apples and pears.
PN1588
So, what does that mean - that you need to look at the responsibilities of the position? Is that what you're saying?---Certainly.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU XXN MS BELLINO
PN1589
Are there particular industries that you think should be recognised higher than others?---That's a very tricky question because it's valuing the work that people do, and I value the work that people do, so I - I'm - I do think though that there are cases when people are working with vulnerable children, that we have an argument for a greater pay than perhaps somebody who works in the metals industry.
PN1590
So, are you saying the workers in the child care industry don't - who have completed the AQF qualifications shouldn't get the same rate of pay for other workers?---As other workers?
PN1591
In different industries?---I'm saying they probably should get higher.
PN1592
Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
PN1593
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Re-examination?
PN1594
PN1595
MS WILSON: When you were talking about value in the diplomas that you've just been asked within the industries, would you also say that you need to look at the hours involved in achieving the diploma, as to what the diploma is actually - or should be paid at, how long it takes to complete, how many contact hours there are within the training itself?---That's - that's - in terms of the value as to the amount of time it's taken in terms of training is very - is very difficult to assess because if - because training organisations - registered training organisations now should be doing workplace assessment for those that are in the paid work force, and so the total number of hours is very hard to assess. You could say the National Training Authority sets X number of hours on the diploma, and you could work on that - on that basis.
**** ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU RXN MS WILSON
PN1596
So - - -?---You could say - yes.
PN1597
In some industries, if it was to take, say, 960 contact hours to complete the diploma, that should be valued the same as one that would take, say, 460 contact hours to complete a diploma?---Again it depends on what you're comparing. I just think that if you're talking about children, I don't think that we can talk about the hours of the diploma. It - - -
PN1598
So, you can't compare?---I don't think you can. I don't believe you can.
PN1599
And we've also heard you just say that you've been fighting to have the child care industry come together as unified?---Mm.
PN1600
Would you consider that splitting the award into three individual streams assisting in the unification of the child care industry?---No. Well, I'd see certainly value in - great value in having both the title of child care professional, and the fact that we have all aspects of child care within the one - within the one. I see great value in that in terms of - of helping to unify the field.
PN1601
Thank you?---Can I just add that there's great value in unifying the field in terms of networking and sharing resources and so on and so on.
PN1602
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Thank you very much for your evidence, Ms Dau. You are excused.
PN1603
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: The next witness.
PN1604
MS WILSON: Yes. Leonie Maiden.
PN1605
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Just while Ms Maiden is coming, can I just raise a couple of issues? Ms Bellino, you refer in a number of - or your questions have gone to the survey. Now, it may be in the materials, but Ms Stubbs's evidence didn't go to issues like, "How many people were surveyed? Response rates. What proportion of those surveyed relative to all of the employees that would be covered by the award?" Absent that sort of material, I am not sure what weight if any we could place on the survey.
PN1606
MS BELLINO: I think it approached - your Honour, I think Ms Stubbs' statement goes to that - - -
PN1607
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: It was touched on in cross-examination that all we have is a blank copy of the survey that was sent out, and statements made about - there was strong support for the titles, the streams, etcetera, but that - that might reflect the fact that the survey was sent to a thousand people, and only two responded, but the two that responded strongly supported the titles. So, I only raise it for you to draw you attention - put you on notice in relation to it that I think it's an issue that you'll either need to address or you run the risk that we won't be able to attach any weight to those propositions.
PN1608
The other question is that there is some material in relation to the licensing arrangements for some parts of the sectors, but it strikes me, well, speaking for myself, I think it would be helpful if there was an agreed statement between the parties as to what those are in the ACT, particularly in relation to ratios of staff to children, and the qualification requirements, the exemption arrangements and, if possible, the number of exemptions that have been granted - something along those lines. It shouldn't be a contentious issue, and yet they're matters that have weaved their way through some of the witness statements perhaps without bringing it together. So, if you can give some attention to that as well. All right. Sorry to keep you, Ms Maiden.
PN1609
MS WILSON: Ms Maiden, can you please state your full name and address?---Leonie Ann Maiden, 7 Longman Street, Richardson, ACT.
PN1610
And what is your current place of employment?---Communities at Work.
PN1611
Have you prepared a written statement for today's hearing?---Yes, I have.
PN1612
Do you recognise this written statement?---Yes, I do.
PN1613
Are there any changes you would like to make?---No.
PN1614
And is your statement true and correct?---It is.
PN1615
I tender the statement of Leonie Maiden.
PN1616
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: I will mark Ms Maiden's statement as exhibit EACT3.
PN1617
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Cross-examination?
PN1618
**** LEONIE ANN MAIDEN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1619
MS BELLINO: My name is C Bellino. I'm from the union. I just want to ask you a few questions?---Yes.
PN1620
Can I draw your attention to point 9 of your statement. You say - a quantity of the file is out?---Okay.
PN1621
I will get it in a moment. There is one here I think. Thank you. You say in point nine of your statement that there has been a change in the emphasis placed on the qualifications by employers in the industry. Can you explain what you mean by that?---I think over the years the industry has tried to show people that we are professionals and that that's something that continues all of the time, and to do that I think we have to show that we're prepared to do the work, and that is to get the qualifications if we want to show to people that we are professional.
PN1622
And do you think employers prefer to employ workers with qualifications?---I can't speak for all employers, but I'm sure they do, and we would. I'm sure I would.
PN1623
So, Communities at Work - - -?---Yes.
PN1624
- - - would you have a preference of someone who - - -?---It would depend on the person. Some people may not be qualified, but certainly be able to carry out the job.
PN1625
So a worker with 10 years' experience in the industry for instance would be considered to be a valuable employee?---Possibly.
PN1626
Can I draw your attention to paragraph 10 of your statement? Can I ask you to explain the first sentence?---Well, a level 2 takes part in programming by - they look at the program, they see what's happening and they take part in the program by either preparing the activities, following what the room leader has put in that program, so that's their part within that program.
**** LEONIE ANN MAIDEN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1627
This is, sorry - - -?---Eleven, did you say?
PN1628
Paragraph 10?---I'm sorry, I was looking at 11.
PN1629
Sorry, in relation to certificate III.
PN1630
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Sorry, just before you answer that, Ms Wilson, you might let Ms Campion know that we're unlikely to get to her before the break now. Thank her for coming in, but I think Ms Bellino is likely to be exhausted by the time this witness is finished.
PN1631
THE WITNESS: The first paragraph or the first sentence?
PN1632
MS BELLINO: Sorry, yes, the first sentence in relation to certificate III?---I believe that somebody with a cert III may come into a centre straight from CIT and they may not have the ability to do all of the things that somebody that has been there for 10 years and had on the job training, been to many workshops and received the same amount of training over that period of time, but just may not have that certificate.
PN1633
Do you see any value to a worker undertaking certificate III?---I certainly do. If they feel that they want to further themselves, I think it's very worthwhile.
PN1634
Can you elaborate on what skills for instance a worker might attain from undertaking the certificate III?---Child development, they would have a greater understanding of that. But that can also be done through workshops, through in-house training, that knowledge is passed on from one staff member to another. And it may be just in your own development you may have that. But certainly with the cert III they're things that are taught. Your programming - you are taught programming. And yes, that's about all.
**** LEONIE ANN MAIDEN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1635
So it's possible for a worker with certificate III to have developed those skills you've just referred to?---They would have the knowledge base because they have done the cert III. Practically they may not have applied those.
PN1636
So, do you mean by the knowledge base, the theoretical understanding? Is that what you're talking about?---Yes.
PN1637
Does Communities at Work have traineeships to attain certificate III?---Yes, we do.
PN1638
So, how would a worker benefit by undertaking a traineeship in certificate III at Communities at Work?---I don't understand what you mean by how they would benefit.
PN1639
Well, would that employee do on the job training?---They would be doing both - they would be working on the job as well as doing their theoretical stuff.
PN1640
And do you know how that would take?---I think - I can't be certain. I think it's allowed to take up to 18 months.
PN1641
So at the end of the day, would that employee who has been doing their training and their practical placement with Communities at Work be a highly valued employee by your company?---It would depend on the employee.
PN1642
Can I ask you to explain what you mean?---Some people may come through it and be a very - a valued employee. Others may find that at the end of that, that's not what they wanted to do, and that often happens.
PN1643
So to graduate from the traineeship in certificate III through Communities at Work, would that worker have to display a level of competency?---They would just need to obtain the cert III and they would then be - their employment would be ongoing.
**** LEONIE ANN MAIDEN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1644
But how would they be assessed while they were studying for the certificate III?---I'm not sure. I can't answer that because I'm not sure whether we put them on probation when they're a trainee or whether the probation period would start afterwards. I don't think so. I think they need to be - they would be assessed by their workplace while they were doing their certificate and their work would have to be meeting a certain requirement.
PN1645
Are you aware of whether they'd be assessed to determine whether they meet regular competencies in particular areas?---I believe so.
PN1646
Can I ask you to have just a quick look at point 12 in your statement? You make some reference to, "The diploma course hasn't changed" - "has changed", sorry, "so that it can be used as a bridging course to the university. Can you explain what you mean by that?---The course once it became the diploma enabled you to go on to university to do your early childhood, and I think a lot of people were using the course for that stepping stone, so not actually going and working in child care, but using it to then go on to university.
PN1647
Do you think that it would be more attractive for workers or students to go on and undertake higher qualifications that might earn them more money?---It depends on the future that person is looking for.
PN1648
Can I just ask you about point 13 of your statement? You talk about your involvement in the creation of the employee's proposed classification structure?---Mm.
PN1649
That was four of you?---Mm.
PN1650
Craig Gamack, Debbie Campion, Amanda Colbran and yourself. Can I ask you how you wrote that classification structure?---How we wrote as in - we had many meetings. Because of the four of us each coming from a different sector - family day care, school age care, long day care - we felt that we all had some input from our own area and we were able to bring that together into one stream rather than the three.
**** LEONIE ANN MAIDEN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1651
Did you take that out to workers in the industry and ask them if they felt it was appropriate?---When we were first working on it, the proposal, no, we worked on it. But I think it ended up being available to them once it was complete.
PN1652
You're not aware of any set consultation with any particular employees though?---Not that I'm aware of.
PN1653
Can I ask you just to have a look at point 14 of your statement? You raised the issue of the same language used across the three streams?---Mm.
PN1654
If the same titles were included across the three streams, do you support having three streams in the classification structure?---No, I still feel that bringing it together on one puts all child care workers together, rather than having them separate.
PN1655
I'm sorry, I just missed the end of that, sorry?---I believe that we need to bring the three sectors together and not have them separate.
PN1656
Okay, thank you. So your concern was in relation to the perception of what the positions involve and the placement of different values on the positions?---With the language that was used, yes.
PN1657
Can I ask you to have a look at point 15 of your statement - actually I retract that. Can I just go to point 18 of your statement? You say that, "I believe that minimum award wages are too low and an increase is justified"?---Mm.
PN1658
Have you seen the application that's before the Commission today?---Yes, I have.
PN1659
Could I ask for your comments on the wage increases proposed by the application?---No, I don't think I'm in a position to comment on those. I don't think I understand them fully.
**** LEONIE ANN MAIDEN XXN MS BELLINO
PN1660
Can I just ask you then to have a look at the application?---So you're wanting me to comment on the increases?
PN1661
Yes, that's right?---In what way?
PN1662
Do you support an AQF - sorry, a CC3 worker being paid at that wage rate? That's $542.20?---No, I support our application.
PN1663
Are you aware of - no, I won't ask that. I have no further questions.
PN1664
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Any re-examination? Thank you for your evidence in this matter, and I thank you for coming in at short notice.
PN1665
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Yes.
PN1666
MS ALLARS: Can I just make a request? The Confederation of ACT Industry will be calling two witnesses tomorrow. One of them is scheduled for the second spot up, but she's only available between 9 and 10, so I would ask if the employees would consent to her being called first.
PN1667
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Which one is that - Leanne - - -
PN1668
MS ALLARS: Leanne Crisp.
PN1669
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: - - - Crisp. Any problem with that?
PN1670
MS BELLINO: As far as I am aware Ms Brunskill is only available at 9 o'clock on Friday, which is why I got her coming in at that specific time.
PN1671
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Well, how long do you think you'll be with Ms Brunskill in cross-examination?
PN1672
MR MORPHETT: I'll have to be quick.
PN1673
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Looks like it. Well, we should be able to get through both of them in the time.
PN1674
MS BELLINO: Okay, I can check with her tonight if - - -
PN1675
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Does it help if we start at 8.45? Does that assist anyone, or not really?
PN1676
MR MORPHETT: I don't think from our point of view I'll be questioning the ALHMU witness, so I don't think it'll be extensive.
PN1677
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS: Well, we should be able to get through both of them between 9 and 10. All right, we will adjourn until 9 am.
ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 19 DECEMBER 2003 [5.01pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #UACT1 AFFIDAVIT OF MARY GALLIANO PN128
EXHIBIT #UACT2 AFFIDAVIT OF LOUISE HYNES PN129
EXHIBIT #UACT3 AFFIDAVIT OF MELISSA SHARROCK PN130
EXHIBIT #UACT4 AFFIDAVIT OF MOLLY RHODIN PN131
EXHIBIT #UACT5 AFFIDAVIT OF TONI STEDFORD PN132
LESLIE RALPH, SWORN PN159
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN159
EXHIBIT #UACT6 STATEMENT OF LESLIE RALPH PN170
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN174
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN191
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN203
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN216
WITNESS WITHDREW PN230
JUDY ELTON, SWORN PN232
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN232
EXHIBIT #UACT7 STATEMENT OF JUDY ELTON PN240
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN243
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN317
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BELLINO PN354
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN375
WITNESS WITHDREW PN381
RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE, AFFIRMED PN383
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN383
EXHIBIT #UACT8 STATEMENT OF RAELINE SUSAN GEORGE PN392
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN394
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN420
WITNESS WITHDREW PN447
DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON, SWORN PN449
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN449
EXHIBIT #UACT9 STATEMENT OF DIEDRE PATRICIA HOBSON PN462
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN463
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN523
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN549
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BELLINO PN578
WITNESS WITHDREW PN585
STEPHANIE HENDERSON, SWORN PN588
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN588
EXHIBIT #UACT10 STATEMENT OF STEPHANIE HENDERSON PN597
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN599
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN664
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BELLINO PN674
WITNESS WITHDREW PN684
REESHA BABETTA STEFEK, SWORN PN686
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN686
EXHIBIT #UACT11 STATEMENT OF REESHA BABETTA STEFEK PN695
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN698
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN810
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BELLINO PN837
WITNESS WITHDREW PN841
JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES, SWORN PN842
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN842
EXHIBIT #UACT12 STATEMENT OF JOANNE ELIZABETH DAVIES PN850
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN851
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN892
WITNESS WITHDREW PN903
NINA BUKVIC, SWORN PN905
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN905
EXHIBIT #UACT13 STATEMENT OF NINA BUKVIC PN914
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN916
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN945
WITNESS WITHDREW PN953
LYNDA STUBBS, SWORN PN955
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN955
EXHIBIT #UACT14 STATEMENT OF LYNDA STUBBS PN964
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN969
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN1059
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN1095
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1109
ERIN KATE MARY JOHNSTON, SWORN PN1111
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN1111
EXHIBIT #UACT15 STATEMENT OF ERIN JOHNSTON PN1119
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN1121
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN1156
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1162
JANE MAREE MARSHALL, AFFIRMED PN1163
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN1163
EXHIBIT #UACT16 STATEMENT OF JANE MARSHALL PN1172
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN1172
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN1187
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN1205
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BELLINO PN1212
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1216
MICHELLE FERNANDEZ, SWORN PN1224
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN1224
EXHIBIT #UACT17 STATEMENT OF MICHELLE FERNANDEZ PN1233
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN1239
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN1290
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1315
BARBARA DEACON, SWORN PN1325
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BELLINO PN1325
EXHIBIT #UACT18 STATEMENT OF BARBARA DEACON PN1333
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN1337
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MORPHETT PN1355
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1365
AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN, SWORN PN1371
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS WILSON PN1371
EXHIBIT #EACT1 STATEMENT OF AMANDA RUTH COLBRAN PN1379
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BELLINO PN1380
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN1490
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1495
ELIZABETH AUDREY DAU, SWORN PN1497
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS WILSON PN1497
EXHIBIT #EACT2 STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH DAU PN1505
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BELLINO PN1507
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS WILSON PN1595
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1603
LEONIE ANN MAIDEN, SWORN PN1609
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS WILSON PN1609
EXHIBIT #EACT3 STATEMENT OF LEONIE MAIDEN PN1617
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BELLINO PN1619
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1665
AustLII:
Copyright Policy
|
Disclaimers
|
Privacy Policy
|
Feedback
URL: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/AIRCTrans/2004/207.html