C2004/2166, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 2610 (12 July 2004)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
(Administrator Appointed)

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 7664
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER GAY

C2004/2166

THE POLICE ASSOCIATION

and

VICTORIA POLICE, HRDD

Application under section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of dispute re alleged refusal
to complete the review of the Police Band as
agreed in clause 4.9 of the agreement

MELBOURNE

10.19 AM, WEDNESDAY, 30 JUNE 2004

PN1

MR J. KENNEDY: With me is MR N. BALDINI and we appear for the Police Association.

PN2

MR G. PATTERSON: I appear on behalf of the Chief Commissioner of Police and with me today, Commissioner, is MR M. FOLLETT and MS B. BRERETON.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: And you enter an appearance for Mr Follett?

PN4

MR PATTERSON: I do so, Commissioner.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: And should that be an application for leave, I would have thought? I don't know about Ms Brereton.

PN6

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, I don't believe that Mr Follett will need to appear in these proceedings other than providing him with access to the bar table and also providing advice to myself. So I will be leading all the evidence for the case so there won't be any need to leave to appear, if the Commission pleases.

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Patterson. Mr Kennedy.

PN8

MR KENNEDY: I am not sure I follow that, Commissioner.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, perhaps this will be a case of fine distinctions but do you want to be heard on that point?

PN10

MR KENNEDY: I take no objection to Mr Follett appearing, Commissioner.

PN11

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, I really think you have entered an appearance, Mr Patterson, for Mr Follett and I think leave really should be granted and it strikes me that I will consider that issue, unless you tell me that he is not appearing. If you tell me he is appearing then I will consider the matter of leave. One really has to tease that out as one sees it because I am trying to follow what you have put. You say he won't be appearing, perhaps I will put it as a question?

PN12

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner. He won't be appearing in these instances. He is purely to provide advice to myself and in the contrary, if you believe it appropriate I would seek therefore leave for him to appear if that was appropriate?

PN13

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you tell me he is not appearing and naturally the Commission accepts what it is told until it is put into contest in any event from the bar table. So thank you on that point. I accept what you say. Do you want to be heard about that, Mr Kennedy? It seems that there is not an appearance and I accept, subject to what you are about to say, that there is not an appearance.

PN14

MR KENNEDY: On the basis that there is no appearance I withdraw my non objection, Commissioner.

PN15

THE COMMISSIONER: What can be fairer than that. All right, thank you, Mr Patterson. Yes, Mr Kennedy.

PN16

MR KENNEDY: Commissioner, this comes before the Commission by way of a dispute notified by Mr Graham Kent, Assistant Secretary of the Police Association in relation to a dispute over the refusal of the force to complete the review of the police bands as agreed in clause 4.9 of the Victoria Police Force Certified Agreement 2001. The matter has been briefly before the Commission prior to this by way of conciliation proceedings. Subsequently the Commission did issue directions in respect to the file of matters.

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: Why do you say briefly, Mr Kennedy? My recollection is that we have had a number of efforts of conciliation and they weren't brief.

PN18

MR KENNEDY: It has been before the Commission a number of times, Commissioner. It depends on how you measure the volume of conciliation in some of the police matters we have had, Commissioner.

PN19

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, in that case it might be thought as being briefer than others. All right. Very well.

PN20

MR KENNEDY: The Association has filed an outline of argument, authorities and materials to be relied upon, Commissioner, and I would seek to have that entered as an exhibit and marked.

PN21

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. These, I take, are two binders?

PN22

MR KENNEDY: Two volumes, Commissioner.

PN23

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right.

EXHIBIT #K1 TWO BINDERS CONTAINING OUTLINE OF ARGUMENT, AUTHORITIES AND MATERIALS RELIED ON

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: And there is some loose material from the brief conciliations but do I take it that this material really takes up - is there a further need at this stage to deal with any of the other material that is contained on the file?

PN25

MR KENNEDY: I don't believe so, Commissioner, at this point.

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Yes, Mr Patterson.

PN27

MR PATTERSON: It didn't get very far, Commissioner. Commissioner, I would like to indicate to the Commission that we would be placing some objections to a number of the documents in K1 and I am just foreshadowing that at this stage. Certainly in our submissions I will highlight those particular areas. They are contained within the documentation we have provided to the Commission as well, if the Commission pleases.

PN28

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right, Mr Patterson. Well, there is nothing too unusual about that so we will deal with those. I do urge the parties though, if you haven't already done this, but take the opportunity to deal with any disputed material. It might be that you could either reach agreement on some staying in, some staying out, or perhaps the amendment of some material, etcetera. It might save our time. Thank you, Mr Patterson. Yes, Mr Kennedy.

PN29

MR KENNEDY: Thank you, Commissioner. As the Commission is aware, the police bands form a quite unique and discrete component of the force and they are members of the force that are employed entirely as bands persons, Commissioner. That is, their sole function is to play in the police band and they do not undertake any of the duties that perhaps are more commonly understood by a layperson as being duties of the police and the employment of persons as bands persons is specifically provided in the police regulations.

PN30

A copy of those regulations are in attached in K1 at tab B, Commissioner, which deal with the capacity of the Chief Commissioner of Police to employ people as bands person without them necessarily meeting the qualifications that are needed for a person to be ordinarily admitted to Victoria Police Force and Victoria Police Force have used those provisions to recruit professional musicians to the police bands and a weight of evidence as we go along, Commissioner, will deal with the musical qualifications of people that have been employed within the bands, Commissioner.

PN31

Upon appointment in the bands the members do not undertake the 20 week recruit training program at Glen Waverley at the Police Academy, Commissioner. Rather, they are given an abbreviated introduction to Victoria Police and a copy of the syllabus of the course, Commissioner, is contained therein tab C of K1.

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN33

MR KENNEDY: Commissioner, you can see it is a five day syllabus. Quite clearly it is significantly less than the 20 weeks that other members of the force do, Commissioner. In doing the one week course, Commissioner, they are not the only persons employed by the force that do not do the full course, the full 20 weeks and they are not the only persons employed by the force that are recruited without them meeting the entry requirements of the force.

PN34

It is indicated regulated 6 of the Police Regulations Act also provides for members to employed in the Police Air Wing on the basis of their qualifications as helicopter pilots, Commissioner, and it allows for people to be employed in the technical support unit of the Coburg Support Division on the basis of their specific electronics qualifications, Commissioner, and those members, the air wing, do a similar one week course to the band, Commissioner, and the members employed in the technical surveillance unit as I understand it do a six weeks special course at the academy, Commissioner, before being deployed in those areas.

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: Is it right that other than those groups other sworn members all comply with the package of arrangements that I am familiar with, which includes exercising all powers and carrying of a weapon when it is consistent with the regulations?

PN36

MR KENNEDY: Yes, Commissioner. I am just thinking. There is some possible exceptions in relation to those that have been laterally recruited at the very highest levels of the force in that regard, assistant commissioner and a commander that have been employed from other police forces, Commissioner. I can't tell you whether they have been employed or couldn't have been employed by regulation 6 or whether they in fact sat the entrance exams that were required for admission to the force, but I think there must have been some satisfaction that they were qualified to the force.

PN37

So in that regard I think air wing, band and technical surveillance unit are the only three that don't exercise - or there is not an expectation by the force that they will exercise all their powers. The members of the band, the air wing and technical surveillance unit, Commissioner, are sworn members of the force and that is, they have the same statutory obligations and immunities as any other member of the force. So certainly notionally a member of the police band who sees an offence committed has the obligations both as a member of the force and a common law constable to in fact act.

PN38

The fact that the force chooses not to arm the police band, that is a decision made by the employer. They are not the only area of the force that don't carry firearms, Commissioner.

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN40

MR KENNEDY: Against that, for example, the technical surveillance unit people that are employed by the same mechanisms do carry firearms, Commissioner, in the ordinary course of their duty. But as I said, all of those people are members of the force and have all of the statutory obligations and immunities of a member of the force and as a common law constable, Commissioner. So it is about what from time to time the employer might choose to deploy people to do.

PN41

That, Commissioner, is by way of introduction and as I would understand it that is substantially common ground in the materials filed by the employer, the statement by Inspector Dynon. I think he briefly covers the history of the bands and how they sit within Victoria Police Force and whilst we might have some technical quibbles with what he says, we don't take any exception to the majority of the material that is contained in his statement, Commissioner.

PN42

Now, the dispute that is before the Commission is one that relates to clause 4.9 of the certified agreement, Commissioner, and as the Commission is aware, when the parties settled the certified agreement there were a range of other matters that were not immediately settled and mechanisms were put in place to enable the parties to have discussions in respect of those matters. Some of those others have been before yourself previously, Commissioner, dealing with allowances, etcetera. Others and commissioned officers salaries and structure and conditions, others have progressed to conclusion satisfactorily between the parties in their discussions and this is one that happens to find the parties in dispute, Commissioner.

PN43

So 4.9 of the certified agreement provided for a review of the police air wing and the police band and I don't need to go through the text of the agreement, Commissioner, but provided for the creation of a working party involving representatives of the Association and the force to ensure close and timely consultation between the employer and the Police Association on the review of the classification level of police air wing and police band positions and that it could change the wages and the classification structures applying to those members.

PN44

Now, the parties have met over the space of some 18 months with a view to progressing that review, Commissioner, and from the outset there was discussions as to what the scope of the review would be between the parties and the terms of reference that were agreed between the parties are set out in attachment D of K1, Commissioner, and it deals with a raft of issues, the classification structure, including wages, training, uniform and conditions of employment.

PN45

THE COMMISSIONER: What do you say that is? Do you say that those - and where it says draft terms I should mark that as agreed terms?

PN46

MR KENNEDY: Yes, they ended up agreed terms, Commissioner.

PN47

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. And do you understand that that is agreed?

PN48

MR KENNEDY: Yes.

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: The status of that was that they were agreed terms of reference, is that so? That is your understanding?

PN50

MR KENNEDY: Yes, and I think in tab E, I didn't mark the final point, Commissioner, in tab E which are the minutes of the joint working party and a point that I can't locate at the moment and I can come back to for the Commissioner, you will see there is a point where the terms of reference are stated as being agreed between the parties, Commissioner. So, yes, our point is that they are agreed terms of reference, Commissioner. To paraphrase those - - -

PN51

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you say that they are terms of reference of the working party?

PN52

MR KENNEDY: Yes, Commissioner.

PN53

THE COMMISSIONER: Or the review? Do you say there is any distinction?

PN54

MR KENNEDY: I don't believe there is a distinction between - - -

PN55

THE COMMISSIONER: Or useful distinction?

PN56

MR KENNEDY: I don't believe there is a distinction between the two, Commissioner.

PN57

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you.

PN58

MR KENNEDY: And as I indicated, Commissioner, the parties have had lengthy discussion via the joint working party in respect to the classification structure that should apply, the organisational structure for the bands, the wages that should be paid and the working arrangements that should apply over a period of some 18 months, Commissioner, and we have reached the point where the parties have been unable to reach agreement on a way to finalise this review.

PN59

I would like to digress slightly from that, Commissioner. What has happened during the course of that process, Commissioner, has been the establishment of a further review of the police band by Victoria Police independent of the provisions of the certified agreement, Commissioner, and the outcomes of that review of what has become known as the Dynon review or at least the draft outcomes of that review in terms of they have been provided to us, we have included in tab 3 of the material we have provided and the employer has filed a statement by Inspector Peter Dynon in relation to it.

PN60

We would say, Commissioner, that the exercise, one, the parties have failed to reach agreement on - - -

PN61

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry, where is it in your material, tab 3?

PN62

MR KENNEDY: Tab 3 in the second volume of our material.

PN63

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, that is Toys 'R Us in mine.

PN64

MR KENNEDY: I hope not, Commissioner. These things happen.

PN65

THE COMMISSIONER: It doesn't matter. I am sure it will turn up. It is authorities, but anyway, it will come along. It is 2 actually I think. Anyway, go on. It is there. I am sure it is there.

PN66

MR KENNEDY: You have seen it on the way through, have you?

PN67

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think I have.

PN68

MR KENNEDY: Yes, all right. Well, we will make something of that as we go, so at a point where we need to locate it, Commissioner, we will make sure you will have a copy of it.

PN69

THE COMMISSIONER: So you call that sort of a review independent of the working party's review, is that right?

PN70

MR KENNEDY: That is right, Commissioner, and we make something of that and it goes to what we say is the dispute between the parties, Commissioner, and that is at one level we have been unable to reach agreement through the joint working party as to a range of matters, particularly the classification structure wage rates and conditions of employment for members employed in the band, and secondly, at another level, Victoria Police Force have set out to conduct a further review which overlaps with the review being conducted under the agreement and it is a review about which there has not been close and timely consultation between Victoria Police and the Association and that review gives rise to proposals by the force to deal with the wages classification and organisational structure for Victoria Police bands, Commissioner, and we say that action by the force is part of the dispute that is before the Commissioner today. Now, the next part of my submission, Commissioner - - -

PN71

THE COMMISSIONER: What is that last point? You say, is this right, that the - do you say that there is a dispute or some disagreement about Inspector Dynon's report?

PN72

MR KENNEDY: Yes, Commissioner.

PN73

THE COMMISSIONER: Or his review. I will call it review, which forms part of this controversy, is that so?

PN74

MR KENNEDY: It does, Commissioner, and that is that the force for their part, as I understand it, would say that that represents an appropriate settlement of a review of the police bands in the terms of 4.9 of the certified agreement, Commissioner, and we would say that that is review is taking place contrary to the terms of 4.9, Commissioner, and further, that we would dispute the outcome of that review as well, Commissioner. But that will develop as the days go on, Commissioner.

PN75

The issue that we would then take you to, Commissioner, and that is by way of background of how we get here, is that we say is the role of the Commission in relation to this matter. The Victoria Police Force Certified Agreement sets out a disputes settling procedure, Commissioner, at 8.3 of that agreement which provides:

PN76

If there is any dispute between the employer and members covered by this agreement about matters ... (reads)... shall apply.

PN77

It is our submission and in response to some arguments that the employer has put in their outline, we would make further submissions on that, it is our view that the parties have agreed a very broad dispute settling procedure, Commissioner, and it is a dispute settling procedure that does provide at 8.3.1 for matters that are not resolved between the parties to be referred to a person nominated by the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission or another person agreed to by the parties and for that person to determine the matter in 8.3.1.4, Commissioner.

PN78

Without pre-empt the employer's argument, I understand that they wish to put by way of jurisdiction and argument that says that the dispute settling procedure exceeds the power of this Commission, Commissioner, under 170LW. There are two issues that arise in respect of that, Commissioner.

PN79

The first is how the dispute is characterised and whether it is a dispute over the application of the agreement, and secondly, Commissioner, if the Commission was to conclude that it wasn't a dispute over the application of the agreement, whether in fact the terms of the agreement have status effectively as a common law agreement, Commissioner, and the parties have conferred powers upon you as a person nominated by the President of the Commission to conduct what is in effect a private arbitration of a dispute between the parties.

PN80

In respect to the first question, Commissioner, about whether it is a dispute over the application of the agreement, I mean the employer has put forward a range of authorities, Commissioner, that they say deal substantially with the matter and whilst it is not entirely clear from their outline of argument and they will expand on it subsequently, I would direct to the Commission the comments that were made by a Full bench in SDA v Big W Department Store case, Commissioner, and that is - - -

PN81

THE COMMISSIONER: I wonder whether it might not be easier on this point to have you put your submissions after you have heard the submissions of Mr Patterson, Mr Kennedy, because it strikes me that it is very likely that when you hear the expanded argument you will seek to put a fuller position?

PN82

MR KENNEDY: It is my intention to put a fuller position so I am glossing over the issues, Commissioner, at this point in terms of this is only an opening, Commissioner.

PN83

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Don't misunderstand me. It is not that I won't hear you.

PN84

MR KENNEDY: Yes.

PN85

THE COMMISSIONER: But I am conscious of that and had you taken a different tack and said, well, I will address on this point after I have heard the point - - -

PN86

MR KENNEDY: Well, it is my intention to address after we have heard that point.

PN87

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN88

MR KENNEDY: I was merely flagging to the Commission that the view of this Commission is that the dispute settling procedures and the notion of disputes over the application of agreements is not to be construed narrowly and that the wide construction of those is about giving efficacy to what has been agreed between the parties and provide for the harmonious settlement of disputes and that is consistent with the objects of the Commission.

PN89

In settling the dispute, Commissioner, and this starts to go to the substance of what will be the arguments before the Commission on the merits of the claim, that we believe the Commission has to have regard to the terms of reference that were agreed between the parties, that is, it is not solely about the terms of the certified agreement, but in settling a dispute between the parties, the parties have further refined the nature of the dispute and the terms of 4.9 by agreement, Commissioner, and so the Commission should have some regard to the terms of reference that the parties have put.

PN90

In that regard, Commissioner, we then proceed to the Association's claim and what we are seeking and we have provided to the Commission in terms of our exhibit at Tab G an organisational structure that the Association believes should be formalised under the agreement and reflects the structure that is currently in place, a set of wage rates, Commissioner, that we believe should be applied at attachment H and at TAB I/J, Commissioner, what we believe are appropriate conditions of employment dealing with patterns of work and hours of work, Commissioner.

PN91

I understand my friend wishes to take a point on that as well and when we have heard from them on those we could make further submissions in that review. The Association relies on a substantial amount of material that we have put forward and we will be calling five witnesses, Commissioner. Three of them are currently members of the Victoria Police band, to give evidence in respect to the roles that they currently perform as well as background material more generally on the band and their knowledge of the musical industry generally.

PN92

We have also provided statements and we will call two witnesses in respect to the operation of - one in relation to the operation of the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra and the other in relation to the State Orchestra of Victoria, Commissioner. Further amongst our material we have provided details in respect to the police bands that operate within South Australia and New South Wales and we have provided witness statements in that material that includes as attachments both the wage rates, conditions of employment and the structures of those individuals bands.

[10.49am]

PN93

We have also provided for the information of the Commission a copy of the report or review that has been done by Peter Dynon in the band which we believe substantially supports much of what we seek, Commissioner, in terms of organisational structure. There are some differences to the margins. We would argue that our structure has been preferred and that would be based upon the evidence that will lead from our individual people.

PN94

It might be convenient for me to pause there, Commissioner, before I go to the body of our evidence. In essence that was a half hour opening statement if you like, Commissioner. So if the employer wishes to open their case then we would proceed with the evidence from our witnesses, Commissioner.

PN95

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Patterson.

PN96

MR PATTERSON: If the Commission pleases, there is a number of preliminary points that I wish to make and some of the issues go directly in relation to what my colleague, Mr Kennedy, has mentioned to you in his opening statement. Firstly, Commissioner, Victoria Police has provided an outline of submissions to you and I am just making sure in the first instance that you do have those documents?

PN97

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I do, Mr Patterson.

PN98

MR PATTERSON: And I wish to tender them as an exhibit, including statements by Inspector Peter Dynon and his attachments, and also statements by - I will just make sure I have the right name.

PN99

THE COMMISSIONER: Barb Glaser.

PN100

MR PATTERSON: Barb Glaser. I couldn't recall her Christian then for a moment, Commissioner, so I apologise for that.

PN101

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, she is there.

PN102

MR PATTERSON: And attachments to that as well, Commissioner, and as I indicated, I wish to enter them as exhibits.

PN103

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I will mark that body of documents which I think is contained in the folder which arrived in my rooms recently and it has colourful tabs and I take it that this the material?

PN104

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

EXHIBIT #P1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS AND ATTACHMENTS

PN105

MR PATTERSON: P1. Thank you, Commissioner. Now, Commissioner, there is also a number of authorities there I think that we provided to the Commission as well.

PN106

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, they are all there. Well, I don't know that they are all there but there are some there. There is some there. There is an inch and a bit. I don't know what that is new parlance, but there we are. My associate made up this file I am now told. I am sorry to hold it up.

PN107

MR PATTERSON: It may be, Commissioner, that we did not provide a folder for you.

PN108

MR KENNEDY: Well, that is good. I was cursing last night, Commissioner, when I was hole punching the documents myself. My sympathy to you, Jo.

PN109

THE COMMISSIONER: No, there are plenty of folders and it seems there are plenty of spare Freehills folders so the copyright hasn't been breached.

PN110

MR PATTERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: And you can take it that I have read all these things, might I say.

PN112

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN113

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't want to be cross-examined about the authorities but I have certainly read all the argument.

PN114

MR PATTERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN115

THE COMMISSIONER: And the witness statements and the other views of people like Ms Glaser.

PN116

MR PATTERSON: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, at the outset what I would like to indicate to you is that we have in our outline of our submissions gone to some length on issues of jurisdiction of the Commission in respect to disputes over the application of the agreement. We rely on the outline of those submissions and primarily we rely on the written submissions in respect to the first issue, the Commission's consideration of this case, that being whether any matters notified to the Commission by the Police Association are properly characterised as disputes over the application of the agreement.

PN117

This is our submission, a preliminary point for the Commission's consideration and we refer to and rely upon those written submissions contained in the outline as filed in paragraphs 1 to 28 and as I indicated to you, Commissioner, they do go at some length to the jurisdiction of the Commission. I don't wish to read any of those documents on the transcript at the moment but from there onwards, from paragraphs 29 onwards the documentation goes into the merits of the argument.

PN118

I will say at the outset we are prepared to fully run our case both on the jurisdiction of the Commission and also the merits arguments of the dispute here today and so we would ask that the Commission in the first instance consider whether it has jurisdiction to hear these matters. Commissioner, part of the issue relates to merits, as we indicated to you, and in terms of the outline of the Victoria Police's case we deal first with matters that are not in dispute and there are three broad limbs to the Police Association's application.

PN119

An appropriate classification command structure for police band is the main issue that has been raised. Appropriate wage rates for members of the police band and appropriate terms and conditions of police band members. I would like to deal with each of those three matters in the first instance. As to appropriate classification command structure for the police bands, Commissioner, the parties are not in dispute that whatever command structure is chosen the members and the positions within that structure shall remain existing ranks within Victoria Police, as set out in the certified agreement.

PN120

That is, Commissioner, we do indicate that we are not changing the categorisation of the positions. They will remain sworn positions within Victoria Police and that is our point, that as it currently stands. The issues in dispute with respect to that structure, the composition of that structure, how many levels in that structure, the appropriate title and more appropriately, the rank of those sworn officers in that level, and also the allocation of duties and responsibilities amongst those individuals.

PN121

Commissioner, Mr Kennedy indicated to you in respect to the majority of other sworn members of the police force and he indicated in relation to the police band, air wing and counter terrorist specialists that are employed or appointed by Victoria Police and that the people in these positions generally do not undertake the full training of a police constable. That is correct, Commissioner. There are only three designated specific areas in Victoria Police, those three areas.

PN122

The air wing, although they do have sworn members there, it relates to the air wing pilots specifically and the other people who were in command of the aircraft such as observers are fully sworn members. So we have three designated areas within Victoria Police that although they are sworn in and have the full powers and privileges of the oath of the office of constable they have not had the full training requirements. They do and can at any time have full arrest powers and as I mentioned, they have all the privileges of the oath of the constable.

PN123

So our position certainly is that these members will remain as sworn constables, but the issue is in relation to, as I mentioned, the composition of the structure of the police band and the levels and remuneration of those areas. In respect to the second point I raised about appropriate wage rates for members of the police band, it is not in dispute between the parties that the pre-existing ranks of sworn officers of Victoria Police will retain the existing wage rates relevant to those ranks currently within the certified agreement.

PN124

So at the end of the day, Commissioner, what we are saying is that whatever is decided out of the Commission, if there is a new classification and wage structure that is determined, that wage and classification structure will be appropriate within the existing certified agreement for sworn police members. We are not considering and we have not considered between the parties a separate structure altogether, or a separate classification structure altogether.

PN125

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let me just make sure I follow what you are putting. I think you have just said that if a new classification structure is determined then, is this right, that the view of the force, and I think you go on to say, I think, I am not trying to put words into your mouth, but it is a share view of the Association that whatever the new structure is should derive, is this right, Mr Patterson, is classification levels from levels known and set out in the agreement?

PN126

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner. So whatever salary rates or classification structure they will be equivalent to the existing rank or level structure within the certified agreement. Does that hone in on the point you are referring to?

PN127

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I am really looking to see that I understand your argument. So is this right, that you say that any new classification determined, I am trying to call up your words, won't, for example, I say what it won't, it won't contain, Mr Patterson, in the submission force it shouldn't contain some new package which is some quite different formulation of pay arrangements from those set out in the agreement?

PN128

MR PATTERSON: That is correct.

PN129

THE COMMISSIONER: Because the agreement sets out, doesn't it, a revised classification structure building on that which it had applied for so many decades?

PN130

MR PATTERSON: Correct.

PN131

THE COMMISSIONER: And you want the band structure to be - - -

PN132

MR PATTERSON: Remain within that structure.

PN133

THE COMMISSIONER: Conformable with that structure.

PN134

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner.

PN135

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN136

MR PATTERSON: It is not our intention and I don't believe it has been the Association and I might be putting words in their mouth, but it hasn't been their intention until now to have a separate salary classification structure outside what is currently within the certified agreement.

PN137

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. And to the extent that that is common ground, that the classification structure should pick up pay levels that are known to you because they exist already in the agreement - - -

PN138

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN139

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - you advocate for something, and we will say constable or perhaps senior constable, I don't know whether you advocate for senior constable for very many.

PN140

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN141

THE COMMISSIONER: And your understanding of their case is that they are advocating for inspector and sergeant, perhaps senior sergeant rates and while you disagree with that your view is that whatever the structure that emerges it should derive from the agreement?

PN142

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner.

PN143

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, all right. Thank you.

PN144

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, as to the third point, the appropriate terms and conditions of police band members, as stated in the outline of submissions we are of the view that the Commission cannot on any conceivable basis have jurisdiction in this matter to determine any variation to pre-existing terms and conditions for police band members. The dispute notification of the Police Association relates to clause 4.9 of the agreement and if need be do you have a copy of that, Commissioner?

PN145

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I do.

PN146

MR PATTERSON: I might just draw your attention to it. The clause speaks of a review of the police bands with respect to classification structure and wage rates and that is at 4.9.2:

PN147

The review may change the wage rates and classification structure applying to police air wing and police band members.

PN148

It does not in any way refer to changing the terms and conditions of employment. In this sense, in our submission we fail to see how on any view the Commission could entertain the Police Association's claim with respect to terms and conditions of employment. In that sense we seek a ruling and it may be, Commissioner, that at this stage we are seeking a preliminary ruling or a preliminary indication from you as to whether this aspect of the Police Association's claim can be struck out, or at least from the Police Association as to how they say the Commission has jurisdiction to deal with and vary pre-existing terms and conditions of employment of band members.

PN149

In totality therefore, Commissioner, it is our submission this case, subject to the jurisdictional point that we have raised in our outline of submissions, subject to the issue of the - and particularly in relation to the terms and conditions of employment. In the alternative, in our submission, turns upon an appropriate classification structure for Victoria Police bands and this is where the merits argument comes into, Commissioner.

PN150

We say that the structure we have put forward is the most appropriate for Victoria Police and I also confirm, Commissioner, that as a result of the Dynon review that my colleague has referred to and provided in his outline of contentions in K1, I can confirm that Deputy Commissioner Nancarrow a number of days ago has indeed approved the structure as presented by Inspector Dynon and it is the intention of Victoria Police to implement that structure subject to the outcome of this case.

PN151

Commissioner, what we are seeking in the first instance is the dismissal of the Police Association's case in its entirety on the grounds that it is beyond the Commission's jurisdiction in that it is not a dispute over the application of the agreement. Secondly and to the extent that the Commission is not with us on that jurisdictional point, in the alternative we say that the Police Association's claim should be dismissed in its entirety in that they have not demonstrated an arguable case for an existing obligation or need to vary the police command structure of the police bands. Thirdly and in the alternative - - -

PN152

THE COMMISSIONER: I just want to understand that. I understand that is your first alternative argument. So you say it is a no arguable case submission, is it? So you say there is no arguable case that has been put forward?

PN153

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner.

PN154

THE COMMISSIONER: So will you be putting a case?

PN155

MR PATTERSON: I will be putting a case, yes, Commissioner.

PN156

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN157

MR PATTERSON: In our substantial - - -

PN158

THE COMMISSIONER: And why is that if there is - - -

PN159

MR PATTERSON: I am sorry, Commissioner.

PN160

THE COMMISSIONER: I want to just understand this, the no case to argue position. So you say that their material doesn't reveal a case against - well, an arguable case, is that - perhaps just not arguable. You say there is no case that you need to respond to because a proper understanding of their case reveals an insufficiency of argument to warrant a reply, is that so?

PN161

MR PATTERSON: If I may, Commissioner, for a moment?

PN162

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN163

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, in reply to your question, we believe that on the material presented by the Police Association there is no arguable case that they have put to the Commission and to the force that would require Victoria Police to act on introducing a structure and salary rates as they have presented. Now, our position is at some point in time that we would argue that a number of the documentation that the Association has presented to the Commission and Mr Kennedy has referred to already this morning, a number of those documents are not relevant to this matter today and we would say that those documents should not be considered in the submissions.

PN164

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I would normally hear you about that, Mr Patterson, but you would say that one shouldn't be persuaded by something because it is not relevant, or it suffers from a lack of relevance, or it doesn't have a great deal of force, but it seems to me that you are putting that now - are you really foreshadowing that even though you say there is no arguable case you do in fact propose to put a case? Because if you say there is no arguable case I invite you not to put a case. It is really a matter for you.

PN165

MR PATTERSON: I suppose in some ways I would say it is not a technical case.

PN166

THE COMMISSIONER: Yours or theirs?

PN167

MR PATTERSON: Theirs.

PN168

THE COMMISSIONER: I would have thought yours was - well, whatever its other version it certainly is a technical case.

PN169

MR PATTERSON: I would say, Commissioner, I mean there is no doubt that the Association have raised a number of points that need to be answered and can be answered and that is what I am referring to. Although they have raised all these points our position is that a number of those points are not relevant, are not appropriate for this matter today and also we believe that part of the management structure that is going to be proposed by - or has been approved by Victoria Police will override or will mean that the majority of the information referred to in Mr Kennedy's opening submissions and also in their outline of contentions are not relevant and therefore we would say that on a technical basis that they do not have an arguable case to raise in this Commission. Does that answer your question that you have just raised with me?

PN170

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I understand your submission, Mr Patterson. Thank you.

PN171

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN172

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN173

MR PATTERSON: Thank you, Commissioner. And we would also say, Commissioner, that the material that is provided in our submission and the witness statement of Inspector Peter Dynon and the attachments would clearly establish that there is no arguable case to answer and I take the point that what Mr Kennedy has indicated to you already, that he has indicated to you that they do not take any issue with the majority of Mr Dynon's statement.

PN174

He only indicated that there was a minor technical, I think he used the word quibbles. So our position is, Commissioner, on the material that is before you from Victoria Police that is the issue about the arguable case. Our final point to note, Commissioner, is that to the extent that the Commission is not with us on the jurisdictional point we still say that the point itself bears heavily upon the merits of this case.

PN175

We say that unless and until the Police Association demonstrates a clear need for a variation to the command and control structure of the police bands and satisfies the Commission that it should interfere in this matter, this is a matter best left to the discretion of the employer, namely, the Chief Commissioner of Police. We say that the Police Association ought to establish good reasons to this Commission as to the need to vary the police command structure and why our suggested structure is completely inappropriate.

PN176

Commissioner, there was a couple of points I wanted to make. One particularly, Mr Kennedy raised issues about common law contracts. Our position is, Commissioner, that certified agreements are not common law contracts and have no effect independent of statute. Now, I understand, Commissioner, that there is authorities on this issue. I don't have those authorities with me today but I believe it is, from my instructions, that it is Ryan v Textile Union which is the TCFUA. That clearly spelt out that certified agreements are not common law contracts.

PN177

So, Commissioner, we have indicated to you in our contentions that we do not believe that this is a dispute over the application of the agreement, that as such there is no jurisdiction for this Commission to hear the matter and that derives from 4.9 of the certified agreement. There is clearly no issue there for this to proceed. Excuse me, sir.

PN178

I have been advised by my adviser, Commissioner, to make the point that we were running the no arguable case issue is on a technical basis. My apologies, not on a technical basis, because clearly we are of the view that we have to answer a number of the issues put forward by Mr Kennedy if these matters were to go into the merits argument and we are happy to still run our case in regard to that. Commissioner, that is - - -

PN179

THE COMMISSIONER: I really thought you put that arguable case proposition, which I think ultimately trenched into a no case to answer proposition to the extent that we distinguished between those two concepts, but you put that in the alternative I thought, Mr Patterson, after you dealt with the - you had moved into your alternative arguments to your jurisdictional point and I thought you were dealing with the merits then because you said you think the case should be dismissed in its entirety and then I think you said or, almost a second alternative argument, but it might be wrong in that, my notes deceive or mislead me, that it should be dismissed because there is no arguable case and this was in relation to the structure and salary aspects. But it is certainly a complex submission, Mr Patterson.

PN180

MR PATTERSON: Indeed, Commissioner, and it could be just a term of phrase that I used that might have been inappropriate.

PN181

THE COMMISSIONER: No, no.

PN182

MR PATTERSON: But I wanted to put the point home that our position has been as we have been through the working party in the review under the certified agreement that at the end of the day our position was that the Association had not put an arguable case to the force for the requirements to adjust or consider a new classification or wage rates for police band members. We say that they have not clearly provided that material again even today to this Commission.

PN183

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, all right. And the purpose of saying through the working party and the review, the Association, I think you say that the Association has put this to the - I am sorry, the force has put this to the Association but they haven't put forward an arguable case to the force.

PN184

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN185

THE COMMISSIONER: And that is what you said to them.

PN186

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN187

THE COMMISSIONER: If I understand what that means. And then you say today in this different environment, you say it again because you think the case doesn't have force, it is not persuasive, is that right?

PN188

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN189

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Yes, okay.

PN190

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, there is a couple of final points.

PN191

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, perhaps before you get to those, when you talk of it then, when you make that last submission about the working party and the review, Mr Patterson, I take it that is the working party and review that is set out at 4.9, is that right?

PN192

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner, and I take a different view from what Mr Kennedy has indicated to you on a couple of those points there, Commissioner, and that is where I was going to take you to.

PN193

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Let me ask you this, when you referred a moment or two ago to the working party and review, it is the working party that is spoken of in 4.9.1, I think there is no doubt about that, is there? The working party is the people that I know, some of who have conducted almost the working party in the conciliations that preceded this proceeding. That is right, isn't it?

PN194

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner, and a number of those members are here today including myself who are party of that working party.

PN195

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN196

MR PATTERSON: And you are aware that the working party has been in conciliation before yourself.

PN197

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, indeed it has and the review, you spoke a few moments ago, it is receding now in time but perhaps two minutes ago, of the working party and review.

PN198

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN199

THE COMMISSIONER: So is this right, that the working party were engaged in a review, is that what you were engaged in?

PN200

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN201

THE COMMISSIONER: When you say review is that what it was?

PN202

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner, exactly. So the working party were established under the provisions of the certified agreement to review the - - -

[11.21am]

PN203

THE COMMISSIONER: Presumably the air wing and the police band.

PN204

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner.

PN205

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN206

MR PATTERSON: And another point as we go through my full submissions I will mention about the police air wing.

PN207

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. And the review that you engaged in is the review that is set out in 4.9 where it speaks of review.

PN208

MR PATTERSON: Correct.

PN209

THE COMMISSIONER: So it is a working party and they are doing something which is as its aim, a review, is that - - -

PN210

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN211

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN212

MR PATTERSON: And this is the couple of points I wanted to refer to you, Commissioner. One point is that Mr Kennedy has raised in respect to the Dynon review. They are two separate identities. One has a process under the certified agreement, so a working party was set up under the certified agreement to review the police band. That has occurred. That has been finalised in our position. A separate review, which is an administrative review or a management review - - -

PN213

THE COMMISSIONER: Why do you say it has been finalised?

PN214

MR PATTERSON: Well, our position was and we indicated to the Police Association some time ago that we do not believe that there was any necessity to continue the working party to review the police band because at one stage as we were progressing through there the parties were at logger heads and this is why this dispute is here today.

PN215

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. So is this right, that the parties are going along in their review and can we confine this discussion because we know the air wing is there, it is doing what it does, but in relation to the band, and we know it is bands but the police band, the review that was conducted with the working party is the review that is referred to in 4.9.

PN216

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner.

PN217

THE COMMISSIONER: And you say what Inspector Dynon has done and it is called a review, that is a separate thing.

PN218

MR PATTERSON: Absolutely, Commissioner.

PN219

THE COMMISSIONER: And he has formed some views, he has put himself on inquiry and he has formed some views in the same way as we all do perhaps all the time.

PN220

MR PATTERSON: Correct.

PN221

THE COMMISSIONER: We go about and we inform ourselves about something and if you wanted to give it appellation you could say that is a review. But he has formalised his and you refer to it as the Dynon review. But it is in contradistinction to the review that is referred to at 4.9.

PN222

MR PATTERSON: Absolutely and I wanted to make that distinction, that there are two different issues and our position will be that Victoria Police, or the Chief Commissioner as the employer, can and will conduct reviews at any time in consideration of the operation of contingencies of the force. Mr Dynon - sorry, Inspector Dynon, he conducted an administrative review. So it is separate to these proceedings.

PN223

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right, thank you.

PN224

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, as a result of that, that Dynon report that is contained in K1 of the Police Association's submission is not relevant to the matters today. They are completely separate. It is not the review that this dispute is about that is before you, so I wanted to point that out. Also, Commissioner - - -

PN225

THE COMMISSIONER: You say it is not relevant? I understand you distinguish it is not the review because you have already answered that and I follow that. I won't need to be told that many more times.

PN226

MR PATTERSON: No, Commissioner, it is not relevant.

PN227

THE COMMISSIONER: But he has formed a view and he has written a report and sometimes it is called the Dynon review.

PN228

MR PATTERSON: Yes, and for ease of, rather going in what it is all about and so forth, the Dynon review is an appropriate colloquial terminology if you like.

PN229

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN230

MR PATTERSON: So the parties can continue calling it that. It is completely separate.

PN231

THE COMMISSIONER: So it is separate. It is over here and he has formed some views and they have found some favour, you say, at a high level of the force and so on and I understood that. But you say it is not relevant to this proceeding.

PN232

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner, because although the Dynon review has identified administrative and supervision issues and made recommendations through to the Deputy Commissioner, who has now accepted those recommendations to a large extent, the majority of those recommendations, Commissioner, that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the case at all today. Now, Mr Kennedy says a number of those issues are relevant to their issues that they raised.

PN233

Well, they may be from their point of view but they are two separate distinct issues and we say that the material that Inspector Dynon has provided to you is a result largely of the reviews that he has conducted in the administrative side of it. So he has provided, I believe, a structure that we intend to look at and proceed with.

PN234

THE COMMISSIONER: Is this right, Mr Patterson, you would say - well, the view that I formed is that Inspector Dynon or whatever else one might want to say about it, its presentation or literary form or some other heading, but it is a thoughtful attempt to come to grips with aspects amongst others of people engaged in this part of the force relating to, and as I say, amongst others, I am not going to be trouble with the others, wage rates and classification structure? They are two issues about which he has particularly directed his attention and his analysis, is that right?

PN235

MR PATTERSON: My understanding is that there is no mention about wages or salary structure in his report. It identifies a proper supervision structure.

PN236

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, supervision structure, yes. Classification structure might be a better way to put it. The classification structure. But that brings with it, entails pay rates, doesn't it?

PN237

MR PATTERSON: Well, I suppose ultimately you could say that, Commissioner, but he didn't look at the classifications of the individuals. He identified a number of significant administrative and supervision problems associated with the way the police band is operating and I won't step away from those issues because they are management issues. So he has identified those areas and as such he made 30 odd recommendations to the Deputy Commissioner which have been now approved.

PN238

He also recommended that there should be a formalised supervision structure and I believe that he has attached that to his statement.

PN239

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Would you say that could be called a classification structure?

PN240

MR PATTERSON: No, Commissioner. I would say that he has tried to reflect to some degree a supervision structure under a police structure and that is what we were endeavouring to move to, because as it is - and we would say that the evidence in the material in K1 is not correct, that the current structure of the police bands consists of two inspectors, one in charge of one side of the band and one inspector in another side of the band and the rest is made up of constables and with a sprinkling of a number of senior constables because they have come up through the operational ranks. I think there is about four of them.

PN241

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN242

MR PATTERSON: So our position is the formal structure is quite different than what has been alluded to in the evidence that has been provided by my colleague, Mr Kennedy.

PN243

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, there is a dichotomy in the materials provided by the Association between what the structure, the supervisory structure and the ranks of the people contained within the structure.

PN244

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner. Yes, but our position is - I mean there has never been a formal structure, anything like that. No-one is as an example, there is no such thing as a band leader. We don't have a band leader. Yes, someone has assumed that responsibility in that role and I say assumed because it has never been formalised. So what Inspector Dynon has done is in his administrative review he has identified that there is a lack of supervision and management issues there and he has identified that structure.

PN245

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN246

MR PATTERSON: Not a classification or wage rates structure.

PN247

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, Mr Patterson. I must say I hadn't quite finished asking what I wanted to put to you about the - - -

PN248

MR PATTERSON: Yes, certainly.

PN249

THE COMMISSIONER: So it is right, is it, relying on what you were putting earlier that the working party set out at 4.9 and the review upon which they are engaged have been considering the police band as to classification level, is what it says, at 4.1 and it goes into further detail at point 2 and mentions wage rates and classification structure?

PN250

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN251

THE COMMISSIONER: So they are things, is this right, Mr Patterson, that are rightly within - came within, correctly, having regard to the obligation to apply the agreement that the parties have, it came within the orbit of the review that they were jointly engaged upon with the working party structure?

PN252

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner, that is correct.

PN253

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN254

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner, and I will just make a point there that except where it deals with - and it is outlined in our submission about the terms and conditions of employment, it clearly doesn't indicate that. Now, Commissioner, I was leading to a point where I was going to say something about that review and that working party but I do acknowledge what you are saying is that a working party was established under the certified agreement to review the classification levels of the police air wing and the police band positions. Our position is that review under the certified agreement - - -

PN255

THE COMMISSIONER: Classification levels you say. There is no - - -

PN256

MR PATTERSON: Sorry.

PN257

THE COMMISSIONER: It is only when you divert from the words in the clause that I worry that whether you are wanting to make a distinction in which case I want to understand because it does talk about - - -

PN258

MR PATTERSON: The clause does say classification level.

PN259

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, classification structure. It says classification level at point 1.

PN260

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner.

PN261

THE COMMISSIONER: And then it speaks about what might change, which is really expect the terms that the parties use might just give you a bit of an idea about what they thought they were embarked upon, but it refers to the review potentially changing wage rates and classification structure.

PN262

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner. It certainly says in 4.9.2 the review may change the wage rates and classification structure and I suppose in some ways there is a very telling word in there and that is may. It doesn't mean it has to and we have addressed that issue certainly in our submissions.

PN263

THE COMMISSIONER: You say that that means something more than the fact that - or it does more than allow for the contingency that the parties might agree as one of the courses available to them as it pursues this subjunctive course, you say, highlighting the use of the word may.

PN264

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN265

THE COMMISSIONER: That no change is required. You say it is more than that because that is one of the readily envisagible outcomes of a review, isn't it?

PN266

MR PATTERSON: Correct, yes.

PN267

THE COMMISSIONER: That the status quo, it is fine, will change nothing.

PN268

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN269

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Now, your argument is that taking that point that it is more than that.

PN270

MR PATTERSON: I don't know whether you would classify more than that as appropriate. I mean it probably is less than what certainly the Association are putting their bets on. But our position is there is no requirement under those provisions for an agreement to be reached by the parties.

PN271

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. And it doesn't say the parties must agree.

PN272

MR PATTERSON: Or will.

PN273

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't know that I have ever seen an agreement that has as a term, an agreement that is in any way genuine, and the parties must agree, because it was a strange - unless it was about arithmetical proposition that even I could understand, or the application of an official almanac that talks about the high tide at Williamstown.

PN274

MR PATTERSON: Yes. Well, Commissioner, I mean if agreements had clauses that will or must agree then there probably won't be any dealings in the Commission at all and we might not need the Commission.

PN275

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. But isn't that a straw man or a straw person?

PN276

MR PATTERSON: It keeps us all engaged to some degree.

PN277

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, there is nothing wrong with that. But, yes, it just seems to me that you are advocating for something that is artificial. You make a point, is this right, that the clause has no - or aspects of the clause that are relevant to your jurisdictional point don't arise because the agreement dealt only with the potential for agreement, is that right?

PN278

MR PATTERSON: Correct.

PN279

THE COMMISSIONER: I am trying to put it in a way that favours you, not too pejoratively.

PN280

MR PATTERSON: And, Commissioner, our position is that the parties genuinely intended for that to the occur and in our submissions we have provided to you a clear example or evidence of that in the current certified agreement and I will take you to that now if I can, Commissioner. If you go to the review, if you like to call that, the same sort of circumstances of 2.2 of the certified agreement and we mention that in our outline of our contentions.

PN281

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, where is this, Mr Patterson?

PN282

MR PATTERSON: 2.2 of the certified agreement is found at paragraph 10 of the certified agreement. Have you got that, Commissioner?

PN283

THE COMMISSIONER: I have. I go nowhere without them.

PN284

MR PATTERSON: I tend to do the same, Commissioner. I have been caught a few times without it.

PN285

THE COMMISSIONER: It is a sorrowful commentary on the quality of my life. Now, where do I go, page 10?

PN286

MR PATTERSON: Page 10.

PN287

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN288

MR PATTERSON: Now, Commissioner, we have indicated it in our contentions and this is where it comes down to the jurisdictional argument that we have raised. 2.2 refers to roster reform. Now, I admit that it doesn't specifically say it is a review or anything like that but it clearly identifies what rostering reform is about and on the next page - - -

PN289

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, 2.2.4 is there, yes.

PN290

MR PATTERSON: 2.2.4, should the working party, and it refers to the working party mind you, so it has the same connotations as 4.9.

PN291

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, it does.

PN292

MR PATTERSON:

PN293

Should the working party not reach agreement on any aspects listed above the matter should be dealt with in accordance with the dispute settling procedure.

PN294

Now, that is specifically absent in 4.9. It is specifically absent also in 4.7 which is the Commission's officers review, and our position is, Commissioner, there was a clear intention of the parties for that to occur.

PN295

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. And we know that different formulations of words have been used right throughout this agreement and anyone connected in the real world with the actual negotiation of this agreement, Mr Patterson, knows that over a most difficult period of weeks and months this agreement was cobbled together.

PN296

MR PATTERSON: Absolutely, Commissioner. Which you were well aware of.

PN297

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is right. One can't say that one can be totally aware of all these things, but there are many aspects of this agreement that the parties in this room committed to dispute resolution in Victoria Police Force and Victoria Police Association have a knowledge of.

PN298

MR PATTERSON: Absolutely, Commissioner.

PN299

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, which is how it should be I would have thought. Now, what about 2.7, further improvement to conditions, Mr Patterson, because it seems to suffer from a terrible vice? It doesn't make a reference to the dispute settling procedure.

PN300

MR PATTERSON: No, it doesn't.

PN301

THE COMMISSIONER: It doesn't call it up.

PN302

MR PATTERSON: It doesn't, Commissioner, and you may recall that there was an extensive case run by the parties before this Commission on the officer in charge allowances some time ago that identified and discussed at length 2.7 and it hasn't been, or wasn't my intention to go through those issues in this dispute because we don't say that that is relevant because as far as our concern is that has been put to death.

PN303

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN304

MR PATTERSON: So 2.7, if I say this, Commissioner - - -

PN305

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, do you say the Commission exercised its jurisdiction in some way which is at odds with its obligations? Because I am reminded in your submissions of course that the Commission must, in your view, place itself on inquiry irrespective of the submissions from the bar table and that is in the establishment of jurisdiction. So do you say - - -

PN306

MR PATTERSON: Yes, I accept.

PN307

THE COMMISSIONER: But you see, I want to follow your argument.

PN308

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN309

THE COMMISSIONER: Because your argument it seems to me to be you draw the distinction between the part 2 specific commitments reference to a working party not being able to reach agreement, such a matter being dealt with in accordance with the dispute settlement procedure and the absence of those words in whatever we are on.

PN310

MR PATTERSON: 4.9.

PN311

THE COMMISSIONER: 4.9.

PN312

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN313

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN314

MR PATTERSON: All right. If I say this about 2.7, we identified some time ago that there is three pieces of information in that 2.7 and it indicates to the extent that the savings can be found in the award modernisation exercise. We established in the previous case I mentioned that there was no savings found in the award modernisation. It then refers to the next point which is reviews agreed to in this agreement:

PN315

Has there been further improvement to conditions reviews agreed to this agreement?

PN316

Well, it also says, "or other areas identified and agreed." We have been three a review. A working party was established, we have been through a review and from Victoria Police's point of view the review identified that there was no need to further consider any additional classification - I will get the right terminology, or change the wage rates or classification levels of the police band. So our position is that 2.7 has no proceedings with this matter today because although there was a review agreed - - -

PN317

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Patterson, perhaps we are at odds. It is really I want to understand the force with which you make your submission as to jurisdiction because it struck me that you were drawing the distinction in clause 2 of the agreement with those aspects which were identified in the agreement about which the dispute settlement procedure had been mentioned.

PN318

MR PATTERSON: Correct.

PN319

THE COMMISSIONER: In terms actually mentioned. Now, it is not mentioned in relation to the review of the police air wing and the police band.

PN320

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner, yes.

PN321

THE COMMISSIONER: And so you say, is this right, that there is no dispute which attracts the prevention and settlement arrangements of disputes arising as to the operation of the agreement?

PN322

MR PATTERSON: Under 8.3 of the settlement of disputes.

PN323

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN324

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN325

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. And where the Commission has agreed in the past to determine issues brought to it by the parties jointly, do you say that was in jurisdictional error because I have not heard this argument before, that the dispute settlement arrangements that reside in the agreement and that are often called up by the parties, sometimes by you and sometimes by the Association, I have never heard before that they have got to sit in relation to every specific portion of the agreement for them to have effect?

PN326

MR PATTERSON: No, Commissioner. I understand - - -

PN327

THE COMMISSIONER: It is a novel argument.

PN328

MR PATTERSON: I am sorry?

PN329

THE COMMISSIONER: I say it is a novel argument.

PN330

MR PATTERSON: Novel argument.

PN331

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN332

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, there is a couple of points there and to some degree we would have to go to - and there may be arguments between the parties but you would have to go into what the intent of the parties were when they put this agreement together. Now, there is clear evidence that under 2.2 that if any matters of dispute would be dealt with by the dispute settlement procedure but that doesn't provide for that in 4.9 or 4.7 where a working party was going to be established.

PN333

The other point, Commissioner, is that you mentioned about whether or not - and I need to make sure that what you said is correct, whether the proceedings that we had previously - - -

PN334

THE COMMISSIONER: I think it will be. Yes, go on.

PN335

MR PATTERSON: In conciliation were not jurisdictionally sound.

PN336

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?

PN337

MR PATTERSON: Whether proceedings in conciliation previous to this matter were not jurisdictionally sound and I might have that terminology incorrect there.

PN338

THE COMMISSIONER: I think perhaps you might. Mr Patterson, you see, in this case there is an obligation by the parties I think acknowledged in your submissions for there to be a review and a working party as to the police band and that has happened.

PN339

MR PATTERSON: Yes, that is correct, Commissioner.

PN340

THE COMMISSIONER: And that has happened.

PN341

MR PATTERSON: Our position is that that has been finalised.

PN342

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. And your further position is that it is not available to the Association to invoke the dispute settling procedure to say, well, we are in dispute about that and that dispute should be the subject of proceedings in the Commission.

PN343

MR PATTERSON: That is our position, yes, and that is certainly in our contentions.

PN344

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. And one of the arguments that you raise and I don't want to misunderstand you, is that the rostering specified of the agreement calls up the dispute settlement procedure and in contrast to the police band review specification.

PN345

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN346

THE COMMISSIONER: And my question is, there are other, there are a multitude of occasions when the Commission has dealt with - perhaps not a multitude, but many occasions where the Commission has dealt with issues brought by either you or by the Association sometimes specific in the agreement and sometimes arising because of the complex operation of the police force where there is disagreement and they have not always had jurisdictional support in that - - -

PN347

MR PATTERSON: That may - sorry.

PN348

THE COMMISSIONER: When they are specified in the agreement they haven't had within the place where they are specified, they haven't had reference to the dispute settling procedure and instead the parties have relied on the operation of the dispute settling procedure in the agreement.

PN349

MR PATTERSON: And that comes back to the issues associated with, I would say, the wording of the provisions of the clauses within the certified agreement or the actual certified agreement itself. Now, all this does, all the certified agreement does is says there will be a working party set up. Now, our position is - and there will be a review. What our position is, the review doesn't form part of the certified agreement. The review is separate to a certified agreement.

PN350

So the Commission doesn't have the power to arbitrate what the review has said and doesn't have the power to arbitrate what the working party has said and there is no - - -

PN351

THE COMMISSIONER: I understand that, Mr Patterson, so it is not much point going on with that. The Commission doesn't have jurisdiction to arbitrate what someone has said. You see, the Commission deals with differences of views, disputes when they arise. Now, in this case the agreement specifies a matter about which the parties couldn't agree at the time of the - attention was given to this issue and many of the others. It might have been there were issues that were on shopping lists and they haven't really given much attention to them.

PN352

But in many of these cases I think it can be assumed safely that attention was given in the lengthy negotiations but agreement eluded the parties. So rather than put them on - just jettison them, some of them went into the agreement and were mentioned and in this case review of the band was one of the issues and it might not have been the highest priority but it was a nominated issue and it has taken these few years for it to come to the surface, to come to the surface it has.

PN353

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN354

THE COMMISSIONER: And the parties were charged by the agreement with the obligation to consult and review. Now, your argument is, is this right, that that doesn't entail agreement and it doesn't constitute a matter specified in the agreement about which there can be a dispute?

PN355

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner, and because our position is that there has been close consultation. Whether you call it timely consultation I can't guarantee that because it has taken a number of years, but certainly there has been that consultation and the review has considered the issues and there has been no agreement. So our position is that the Commission can't arbitrate on those issues because it must have jurisdiction. Irrespective of what the parties say or want, there must be some jurisdiction there for that to occur.

PN356

THE COMMISSIONER: And that jurisdiction would stem from what, a different formulation, would it? A reference in terms to the dispute settling procedure?

PN357

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN358

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, 2.7 didn't have that. You see, all it talked about was the parties would go away and do things.

PN359

MR PATTERSON: But if you look at - yes. Looking at 2.7, Commissioner, I mean it says:

PN360

To the extent that saving can be found in the award modernisation reviews ...(reads)... to conditions.

[11.50am]

PN361

You are right, it doesn't specifically invoke that, but the way that was brought on as a dispute is that the Association claimed that they found savings on those three points.

PN362

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, they put forward some views about which you didn't agree. It doesn't really matter what it was.

PN363

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN364

THE COMMISSIONER: It was about those things.

PN365

MR PATTERSON: That is correct.

PN366

THE COMMISSIONER: And they didn't say something horticultural. They said things about those things and you didn't agree.

PN367

MR PATTERSON: That is correct.

PN368

THE COMMISSIONER: But that clause doesn't rely and it wasn't the position of the force when that very lengthy arbitration took place. It didn't rely on the dispute settlement procedure being particularised at 2.7. The disputes procedure was, the matter was brought for conciliation and then for arbitration because of the operation, the overarching operation of the disputes procedure within the agreement. Now, that is what I would put to you as an observation.

PN369

I must say I didn't think about it at the time very much because the parties came and said this is a matter about which we cannot agree and not it falls to you and I think the Commission was probably addressed about the operation because you are normally pretty tidy in the way you present your submissions and I might in fact have regard for that and see whether something was said.

PN370

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN371

THE COMMISSIONER: But it troubles me that if now in resolving a matter about the proper operation of the agreement one finds a deficit of jurisdiction because it doesn't, as the rostering reform reference does, refer in terms to the dispute settlement procedures. For example, Mr Patterson, the arbitration that was conducted in relation to pecuniary interests and the Chief Commissioner's power to require members of the force in the major drug investigation division to provide pecuniary interest declarations and a range of associated matters, they weren't specified in the agreement in a way which called up the dispute settlement provision and I am told in your submissions today that I have got to independently put myself on inquiry to make sure, irrespective of the submissions of the parties, to make sure that I am proceeding on a sound jurisdictional footing.

PN372

MR PATTERSON: I would agree with you about the pecuniary interest issue, Commissioner, because that does not form part of the conditions of the certified agreement. It doesn't form part of the policies of that that are listed in the certified agreement as an example.

PN373

THE COMMISSIONER: It is one of a range of issues that the parties have brought to the Commission pursuant to the dispute settlement procedure.

PN374

MR PATTERSON: I would have to agree with you on that point. Now, we have now raised this jurisdictional issue where we may not have raised those issues previously.

PN375

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, you are quite entitled to do. I interpolate to say you are quite entitled. I don't want to be heard to say that you are not entitled to do it because of course you are. But I really want to understand the full dimension of your submission, particularly where you go to that latter point that I have now mentioned several times, that there must be, irrespective of the submissions of the parties on the day, there must be a particular step undertaken by the Commission as it consents to review and expend public moneys in resolving disputes that arise, one is told, under the operation of the agreement.

PN376

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN377

THE COMMISSIONER: I think perhaps we will have a short break, Mr Patterson.

PN378

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN379

THE COMMISSIONER: We will adjourn now for 10 minutes.

PN380

MR PATTERSON: If the Commission pleases.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.54am]

RESUMED [12.09pm]

PN381

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Patterson.

PN382

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, I am not sure where we are up to at this moment. Are we still on the same issue of the jurisdiction of the Commission? Do you wish me to put more evidence or more material on that point, or are you satisfied with what is already before you?

PN383

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Patterson, I have been hearing your submissions about the - and my series of questions perhaps have taken you from your submission, but you had been telling me how 4.9 set up the working party and a review and the working party you have told me were engaged in a review and you have told me that that is not the Dynon review/report because that is a quite separate matter and the review - I think you have then gone back into the written submissions to set out that the agreement did not more than set out - I want to do justice to your submissions and it is not always easy to do that for someone else, but that the agreement really set out what might occur and it didn't mandate that any change would occur. The argument was along those lines. That as I have understood the presentation of your submission.

PN384

MR PATTERSON: Probably one of the final points I wanted to make on that part of the issue, Commissioner, was that my understanding of the submission of the Police Association is that there is no dispute between the parties on what has occurred in respect to 4.9.1 at all. In other words, that a working party has been established, there has been consultation between the employer and the Police Association and that consultation has considered the review of the classification level of the police air wing and police band positions. So it is not a dispute about that. It is not - - -

PN385

THE COMMISSIONER: About the fact of a working party having come into existence or a review being undertaken?

PN386

MR PATTERSON: That is correct.

PN387

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, the truth of then having been a review.

PN388

MR PATTERSON: There has been, yes. Correct, Commissioner.

PN389

THE COMMISSIONER: There has been a review.

PN390

MR PATTERSON: There has definitely been a review. There might be an issue about timely issues but that is another issue.

PN391

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN392

MR PATTERSON: There is no dispute about 4.9.2:

PN393

The review may change the wage rates and classification structure applying to the police ...(reads)... valid majority.

PN394

And 4.9.3 hasn't come to any length so we are not having a dispute about that. It hasn't gone to that stage. Now, I say there is no dispute about 4.9.2, Commissioner, because the review has considered changes to the wage rate and classification structure. There is no requirement for the review to agree but it was considered. So there can be no dispute that that provision has been applied. No dispute about 4.9.1, no dispute about 4.9.2.

PN395

So we are there left with what is the dispute about and in our contentions we have clearly indicated what our position is in respect to jurisdiction. Now, Commissioner, we mentioned preliminary in the opening issues that we had some objection to a number of the documents provided in K1.

PN396

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN397

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, I am happy to go through those areas that we seek to have that evidence struck out and identify the reasons for that and we have mentioned that in the outline of contentions in relation to the terms and conditions of employment. It is a matter of whether the Commission wishes me to proceed with that at the moment or to do that in my substantive arguments and therefore, Commissioner, I defer to yourself to indicate which way you would prefer the proceedings to proceed.

PN398

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. Well, you said very much earlier in your submissions, Mr Patterson that you may seek a preliminary ruling as to whether the terms of employment claims should be struck out.

PN399

MR PATTERSON: Correct, Commissioner.

PN400

THE COMMISSIONER: It strikes me that really implicit in your position is that you might, you haven't done it in terms, but you might have put a submission to say that the force favours that the Commission comes to a view on jurisdictional issues at the outset.

PN401

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN402

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, you haven't put that submission - you haven't actually put that submission that there should be a determination of that aspect of your case first and I take it you are adopting that approach, that is to say, that you might do it advisedly. If you want me to indicate any absence of a submission that I do decide the jurisdictional first, whether I would propose to decide that issue first I will indicate my position to you.

PN403

MR PATTERSON: Excuse me, Commissioner.

PN404

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, Mr Patterson.

PN405

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, just one question to yourself. Are you referring to the 170LW point or the point that we have raised in relation to - the third point we believe the dispute is about, is about the terms and conditions of employment? So, so far we have indicated to you the main jurisdictional issue is the 170LW point which we have been through at length and I also indicated to you that there is an issue of whether the terms and conditions of employment should be included in the dispute as well.

PN406

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, because you say that on any construction, this is your submission I think, they don't come within the scope of 4.9.

PN407

MR PATTERSON: Correct, both of them. So are you indicating to me that we want both points or one point determined now?

PN408

THE COMMISSIONER: I really want to understand your submission. It would not normally be my intention to respond to a general submission such as you have put that you may seek a preliminary ruling. I would only do that, I would only consider that if such a submission was actually put, whether it is as to your general 170LW point or the third leg argument. So it is really a matter for you. If you want to put a submission saying that you don't want the case to go ahead and rather there should be a jurisdictional ruling on say first, the 170, we will go macro first, the 170LW, then you will put it presumably.

PN409

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner, I understand. I am considering a number of matters in that respect because we do have a number of people here who are witnesses and prepared to give witness statements. Could I ask the Commission is it likely that if I ask for the preliminary jurisdictional point to be determined in the first instance, is that likely to take the rest of the day or several days?

PN410

THE COMMISSIONER: Who knows, Mr Patterson, but it is charming to have the real world intrude just for a moment, as Madden J used to say. Now, my position is that I will not make preliminary rulings in relation to jurisdiction. I prefer to hear all - I will hear your case in its totally and I will hear the Association's case in its totality.

PN411

MR PATTERSON: Can I have a moment, Commissioner?

PN412

THE COMMISSIONER: Indeed.

PN413

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, in that regard I acknowledge what your preliminary point is - or your point is and I will not be seeking a preliminary point on jurisdiction in the first instances.

PN414

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks, Mr Patterson.

PN415

MR PATTERSON: Only for the sake that we have a fairly lengthy case and you can consider in the fullness of time after hearing all the evidence and I am prepared to continue on with the merit case and the substantive arguments.

PN416

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN417

MR PATTERSON: However I do point out that that position has been placed by the employer on jurisdiction. There is a couple of more points in that respect prior to finalising my opening submission.

PN418

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Patterson.

PN419

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, therefore in respect to the terms and conditions of employment, when we proceed down to the witness statements and where necessary the witnesses to be placed in the dock and cross-examined, a number of the statements made by the witnesses we will object to at that time.

PN420

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN421

MR PATTERSON: Because that goes into the terms and conditions of employment. So we will highlight those as we proceed along, Commissioner.

PN422

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. Well, perhaps it will be for ease of management of the case I will note your objections. It is my intention, and this is designed to assist with the efficient running of this case, it is my intention to hear the case as advanced by the Association. If it clearly entrenches in my view into any grounds that aren't relevant then I would like to think you can be assured that I will stop them and try and herd them back over into relevant zone.

PN423

But I do understand that you take your second point in relation to the terms of some of the conditions of the band members and by the receipt of that evidence in no way can that or will that go to the prejudice of the force because I will hear you both finally as you develop an important part of your argument which will be in amplification of what you have already put as to why there isn't scope within 4.9 to allow for some of those things and then in the quite normal way one will deal with those at the time of decision.

PN424

MR PATTERSON: There is just two final points in that respect, Commissioner, I wanted to raise. Mr Kennedy has provided in K1 at tab - there is a bit of confusion with the tab numbers actually. Tab D, terms of reference.

PN425

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN426

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, I will say at this point that it is our position that those terms of reference were the terms of reference for the working party and not the review and that that is distinguishable to what Mr Kennedy has indicated and that is our position, that those terms of reference were in an attempt by the parties to resolve a number of issues basically in conciliation and for the working party to consider what the review was going to be considering and as such our position is that they don't have any bearing or reference to these proceedings today either and we do not believe that they should be relevant to these proceedings.

PN427

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN428

MR PATTERSON: The final issue also - - -

PN429

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, before you go off that point, because that involves a distinction, doesn't it, between the working party and the review upon which, if I have understood your earlier submissions, they were embarked? I must say I have written - I am going to hold this up so it will mean nothing for the transcript, but I have put a line through the word draft and I have written, "subsequently agreed terms of reference."

PN430

Now, you have just said, if I have understood you, that that is a reference to - those terms of reference rather, are the ultimately agreed working party terms of reference and I should distinguish between the terms of reference and the review upon which they were jointly embarked.

PN431

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner. They were terms of reference developed for the working party to consider what the review was about, it you like to put it that way. In other words, what the working party would go through and review if you like and I don't know whether that is the right terminology either. But our position is it is distinguishable.

PN432

THE COMMISSIONER: Because at some point it may be relevant to think was the review, the working party together or was it something else, was it that which might emerge from the working party? So you can imagine that the parties might have agreed early on well, we will write a protocol, or we will write something at the end of the working party, the working party if it is different from the review.

PN433

It strikes me that the working party, I just put this in a preliminary way to encourage submissions from you and from Mr Kennedy, it is likely that the working party was engaged in, as it went about its business, in the review that is spoken of. I haven't got anything at the moment or presently that indicates there was to be some formal instrument that they were going to conjure into existence which would then be the review. It strikes me that the working party regulated what it was going to do through the agreed terms of reference and that process was then undertaking the review, or a review.

PN434

MR PATTERSON: I understand what you are saying. I just wonder whether there is a different interpretation of what working party and review is. I mean to our point of view the working party was established to review a number of things which they undertook and those terms of reference were, I think you indicated one of the words was protocol.

PN435

THE COMMISSIONER: But I said that might have done that. It might have been discernible in the materials that they were going to do something later which would then become the review, but there is nothing that I have seen in the material I have gone through that shows that it was that type of review. There is a Dynon review using synonymously with the report.

PN436

MR PATTERSON: Which is clearly separate, yes.

PN437

THE COMMISSIONER: But in this case when you ask me to distinguish, you say these agreed terms of reference are of little influence and assistance today and they can't be used as an aid to construction in the way that has been foreshadowed to be part of the case of the Association. You say that they are - - -

PN438

MR PATTERSON: Well, our position was and still is, I mean - and certainly the Police Association aren't accepting this, but our position is that the review is finalised.

PN439

THE COMMISSIONER: And the review is something that has happened.

PN440

MR PATTERSON: It is something that has happened.

PN441

THE COMMISSIONER: And is this right, is this common ground, that it is what the working party were engaged upon?

PN442

MR PATTERSON: Can I get that clarified? When you refer to that I am not too sure what you are indicating there, Commissioner.

PN443

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, the agreement talks about a review and the working party is going to conduct it. Now, it might be thought that the working party were going to closely consult to assist a review conducted by someone else, but you see, I know that that is not the case.

PN444

MR PATTERSON: No, that is correct. That was the not the case. It is the working party that reviewed the classification and structural if you like of the police band.

PN445

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, and so they were doing things that working parties do. They worked out some agreed terms of reference.

PN446

MR PATTERSON: Protocols. I like that word.

PN447

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is a very snazzy word and we can use it. It will give it some currency, some vogueishness here, but they did things and they mapped out what they do. I mean they are all grown up. They tried. They probably didn't do it adequately and they probably fell into all sorts of appalling errors. They might have dropped outside their proper scope too. But they did some things which I am told are agreed terms of reference and it seems to me that from your submission that you say they conducted a review.

PN448

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner. The terms of reference were the working party's terms of reference, not the review's terms of reference.

PN449

THE COMMISSIONER: But you see, that makes you think is there a distinction between the working party and the review. The review is what the working party were doing it seemed to me. It is a noun and a verb. They were reviewing things we know what they were reviewing and they - - -

PN450

MR PATTERSON: They were looking at a whole lot of things.

PN451

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, they were.

PN452

MR PATTERSON: And at the end of the day the working party were going to consider all those things and either make a recommendation or something or not do anything. So at the end of the day they decided not to do anything.

PN453

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, they could have agreed not to do anything. Can I just ask you, it will assist me; one of the courses open to them was to agree to do nothing. That is the status quo position, isn't it, and I think it is something that is referred to in your written submissions? So that is one of the things they could have done.

PN454

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN455

THE COMMISSIONER: As it was, it may be they agreed that there was no further useful purpose in them reviewing things and going mulling about having these conversations because they were unlikely to reach agreement. I don't know.

PN456

MR PATTERSON: Can I say this, I mean you are personally aware that the working party comprises representatives from both the Police Association and from the employer and you are aware of some of those parties. Now, when the working party was looking at a whole range of things it got to the stage where part of the working party said, well, we can't go any further. We are not prepared to consider any new - or any changes to the wage rates and classification structure. So if you say that there was no agreement in the working party that would be correct.

PN457

THE COMMISSIONER: So that is the cessation of the working party because there was an absence of agreement?

PN458

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner. So to that point the working party came to a point where, if you like to call it, the review could no longer go further. Now, at the time the working party was looking at a whole range of issues and those protocols or scope of the terms of reference doesn't necessarily mean that they were going to be incorporated or imparted into the provisions of the certified agreement. As an example, we have objected to the issues about the terms and conditions of employment changing. Now - - -

[12.31pm]

PN459

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but the only problem with that argument is you haven't got a time machine. It seems that the parties, for whatever reason, if this is true, if it is an agreed term of reference that was finally knocked up. Sometimes you have a dispute about the terms of reference but it seems that they worked out what it was that they would busy themselves with and one of them was to establish internal and external relativities that were appropriate. Now, it seems that that is what they thought they should do. It would be a useful way for them to conduct the review.

PN460

MR PATTERSON: Well, if I can say this, that the working party terms of reference really was beyond the scope or the otherwise of the terms of reference that is in 4.9.

PN461

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, and the uniform is a good example of that, isn't it?

PN462

MR PATTERSON: And the uniform is a good example and I will use that as a perfect example, Commissioner. Under the Commonwealth Powers Industrial Relations Act uniform is not one of the deferred powers to the Federal Commission. It remains the sole responsibility and authority of the Chief Commissioner. If for instance you proceed down the path of determining some of these matters and you go into the issues of the terms and conditions of employment and talk about uniforms - - -

PN463

THE COMMISSIONER: Leave the uniforms alone.

PN464

MR PATTERSON: Yes, leave the uniforms alone. I mean there would be an objection there. All right. So essentially the working party looked a whole range of issues that probably we would say was not within the scope of 4.9. Now, the reason for that is because the working party wanted to consider a whole range of issues but that was part of the conciliation process. We are now into the process of arbitration and if I use a term that has been used in this Commission before, all bets are off.

PN465

So our position is that those terms of reference are not relevant to these proceedings today and they should not form part of the proceedings. They were part of only for conciliation purposes and to try and resolve issues and look at a range of issues under the working party. Commissioner, my final point is the process to continue from here onwards. We have provided the Commission with two witness statements from Inspector Dynon and Ms Glaser.

PN466

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I have read those.

PN467

MR PATTERSON: It was not my intention to proceed with placing them in the box and exploring additional material from those witness statements. Our position was that those witness statements stand. Now, the only issue of course is whether my colleague, Mr Kennedy wishes to cross-examine those witnesses.

PN468

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, we will see. Do you want to establish that?

PN469

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner, because otherwise they weren't going to be called by myself.

PN470

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, that is all quite normal. It happens quite constantly so we will see what Mr Kennedy says.

PN471

MR PATTERSON: So we are just trying to work out programming for the rest of the day today and what is going to occur over the next day or two.

PN472

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks, Mr Patterson. We will deal with that point now.

PN473

MR PATTERSON: Okay. If the Commission pleases.

PN474

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Kennedy, do you require Ms Glaser and Mr Dynon?

PN475

MR KENNEDY: We require both witnesses to be available for cross-examination, Commissioner.

PN476

MR KENNEDY: Thank you. They require them, Mr Patterson.

PN477

MR PATTERSON: Thank you, Commissioner. Therefore, Commissioner, it is my position that we proceed with now for Mr Kennedy to run his substantive arguments, whether he wishes to call his witnesses this afternoon or tomorrow, but certainly the two witnesses that we have are not available until tomorrow for us. So it would be preferable for our two witnesses to be available to the Commission tomorrow morning. Unless that is - - -

PN478

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, we will conduct the case in the normal way. Unless there is some - if there is a reason why you want to interpose your witnesses for again, any of the normal reasons that sometimes occur, but I will hear you on that, but otherwise we will just go along. And they are in town, Ms Glaser and - - -

PN479

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN480

THE COMMISSIONER: And Ms Glaser is from the MSO, isn't she?

PN481

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN482

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN483

MR PATTERSON: And she has been notified. We have already indicated to her that she will likely to be cross-examined. Mr Kennedy has indicated that to us but I needed that formally on transcript.

PN484

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right.

PN485

MR PATTERSON: So we have got her available tomorrow morning. Inspector Dynon is available tomorrow as well, although he would be here this afternoon. I would suspect that we probably wouldn't need to put them in the box until at least tomorrow. Unless Mr Kennedy has something else to say about that of course.

PN486

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, we will see. Well, don't get too trouble about case management issues. If there is a reason to put Ms Glaser in and to meet her because she is not a member of the force, well, then I would expect the normal liaison. I have got no reason to think on any of the scores of previous occasions there wouldn't be the normal courtesy between you and Mr Kennedy so I will invite you to do that to make sure that Ms Glaser's reasonable convenience is met. Thanks, Mr Patterson.

PN487

MR PATTERSON: Thank you, Commissioner. If the Commission pleases.

PN488

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Kennedy.

PN489

MR KENNEDY: Thank you, Commissioner. I cognisant of the time, Commissioner, and I rather not call our first witness now but rather to wait till after the lunch adjournment.

PN490

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN491

MR KENNEDY: But I will proceed on, Commissioner, the jurisdictional question of the Commission and some of the issues that were raised by Mr Patterson and then arose in the exchange between yourself and Mr Patterson on jurisdiction. If I deal - I will deal with them in reverse, Commissioner, if you like. It would seem to be - there seem to be three issues that leap out at us, Commissioner. The first is the employer's reliance in respect to that some parts of the provision, notably 2.2, makes specific reference to the operation of the dispute settling procedure and they seem to take some comfort from that in respect to the other parts that don't make reference to the dispute settling procedure, Commissioner.

PN492

It is stating the obvious that the Act at 170LT(8) requires the parties to include a dispute settling procedure and procedures for preventing and settling disputes between employers and employees about matters arising under the agreement. Now, the fact that the agreement was certified, Commissioner, I think goes to show that what the intent of the parties was in constructing their dispute settling procedure, Commissioner, and that is it cannot have any other construction other than the dispute settling procedure was designed to apply in the terms of 170LT(8) and that is that procedures for preventing and settling disputes about matters arising under the agreement.

PN493

I don't think you can say because there is one particular clause to say that disputes can be settled under the agreement, that that narrows the scope of the dispute settling procedure contained in 8.2 to the point where it only applies to 2.2 because that would seem to be the logical conclusion from Mr Patterson's submissions, Commissioner. I don't think I need go any further on that particular point, Commissioner.

PN494

It then, Commissioner, and it is really well developed in their outline of argument, goes to the issue about 170LW and disputes over the application of the agreement and we would say there are two issues in respect to that and they are well stated by the employer in their outline of argument and there is a reasonable number of authorities that deal with it. But what it seems to me the employer has confused in making their submissions is what order the Commission may be persuaded to make in settling the dispute and what is the characterisation of the dispute, Commissioner.

PN495

Of course they are quite different things and the authorities that cite are Channel 7 and Big W, Commissioner. We will deal with that question that the orders made by the Commission must have significant nexus with the dispute over the application of the agreement and the employer seems to be making some weight out of the fact that what the Association has sought is to finally settle the dispute over the classification structure and wage rates for the band and imply that in some way that that is impermissible for the Commission, but not in the notion that it is impermissible for the Commission to do so in that it lacks nexus with the dispute over the application of the agreement but rather that they take that as characterising the dispute over the application of the agreement.

PN496

In that regard, Commissioner, we think that they are mistaken. The dispute settling procedure contained within the agreement quite clearly provides for the Commission to determine matters in finality. It does include the expression subject to any appeal available, but it is clearly one that provides for, to use the common parlance, arbitration and finalisation of disputes before it.

PN497

We would say that it is a proper exercise of the Commission's powers to make the necessary orders that finally dispose of the dispute between the parties and if that involves orders that provide for a new classification structure, or a different classification, or the same classification structure, Commissioner, different wages or the same wages, then that is, Commissioner, quite properly exercising its powers under the dispute settling procedure.

PN498

The second leg of where I was going to, Commissioner, is the obligation on the Commission to characterise a dispute as being one over the application of the agreement and there has been a bit of fluffing around this morning already about trying to get to that and the nature and we have had the discourse about when is a reviewer review and when is a reviewer review conducted by a jointed working party, etcetera, Commissioner.

PN499

But some of what we need to make out in respect to whether the dispute is a dispute over the application of the agreement actually arise out of the witness evidence that we will lead from three members of the police band as well as the evidence that we would seek to garner from Inspector Dynon of cross-examination about his review has been conducted, Commissioner, because it seems to me that there are a number of issues in there, Commissioner.

PN500

As I said at the outset, one issue and the employers raise it in their outline of argument is about whether the dispute is solely about the failure of the joint working party to reach agreement and we would say that that is an unnecessarily narrow construction of what the dispute is about because what we do have in the mix is the failure of the employer and the Association to reach agreement in the context of the joint working party.

PN501

We do have the employer then seeking to superimpose their own review that would subvert the operation of the clause within the agreement, 4.9, and the operation of the joint working party, Commissioner, and further, that the agreement itself provides for a separate process for the conduct of organisational reviews of the type that Dynon has conducted and that is, Commissioner, in 8.1 of the agreement dealing with organisational change and within that larger than life agreement, the Workforce Restructuring and Mobility Agreement, Commissioner, which sets out processes in respect to notification, providing the scope of a review, opportunity for the Association to have input, etcetera.

PN502

We would say that the Dynon review, Commissioner, has been conducted contrary to those provisions of the agreement. The fourth issue we would raise, Commissioner - - -

PN503

THE COMMISSIONER: Has that point been raised, Mr Kennedy, that Inspector Dynon's activity and the production of his considerations to writing, that that is at odds with the mobility - - -

PN504

MR KENNEDY: It was raised quite - it is not contained in our materials, Commissioner, but it was raised quite explicitly with the employer in respect to the inspector's review of police bands and was the source of a meeting between the Association and Deputy Commissioner Peter Nancarrow in about how Inspector Dynon could conduct his review without impinging upon the Association's and Victoria Police's obligations under the certified agreement in respect to the joint working party set out in 4.9, Commissioner, and it is an issue that we would have sought to cross-examine Inspector Dynon on.

PN505

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN506

MR KENNEDY: When he subsequently gives evidence, Commissioner.

PN507

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, I must say I have read - I am going to adjourn shortly. I am aware from - and if it is not in your materials it might be that it is reflected somewhere in the employer's materials, or it may be in some material on the file which sometimes has a slightly separate existence, but I have read of something yesterday or the day before of a dispute - or the issue having been raised in a decidedly not agreed way, that is, of Inspector Dynon's activity having usurped the role of 4.9 and it might be implicitly and you are now arguing explicitly, the mobility of the agreement.

PN508

MR KENNEDY: Yes. I am confident that those matters were before you in the original conciliation proceedings, Commissioner, about that dispute.

PN509

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Well, Mr Kennedy, I am going to adjourn in just a moment but I might say in the luncheon break I will be aided by you giving some thought to you have mentioned the mobility and I know that is not its full title, but the mobility element of the agreement, but the agreement which goes to form part of the agreement, and if it is said and if it is going to be pressed by you that that forms part of this case and should form part of my consideration, that is, that is what has been done by Inspector Dynon does usurp the role of the Association pursuant to the mobility agreement, I would invite you to give some thought to that if that is what you are going to put because it should be brought to notice for Mr Patterson I think sooner rather than later so that we don't have a case that goes along and then expands in some way.

PN510

If it is going to form part of your argument I would rather hear about it at the outset and of course it is fairer for them to hear of that at the outset.

PN511

MR KENNEDY: Yes.

PN512

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Patterson has risen. You have an objection, Mr Patterson?

PN513

MR KENNEDY: Sorry.

PN514

MR PATTERSON: Yes.

PN515

THE COMMISSIONER: What is it, Mr Patterson?

PN516

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, I fail to see the relevance of what Mr Kennedy's evidence in relation to the Dynon's report, whether it meets the mobility agreement as he has indicated. I mean our position is and we will put that at a later date that it has met that requirements and I can demonstrate that, but it has got no relevance to what has been put for you today in respect to whether a legal document or not.

PN517

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't want to hear you now - all right. Well, Mr Patterson, don't speak over me. I don't want to hear you now about that. You may fail to see the relevance now. I will be at great pains to make sure that all the points that are raised by both parties are clear to the other side and if any relevance that may be there will be capable of being seen by anyone taking a cautious look at the material. So, Mr Kennedy, do you understand what I have put? I want you to give that some thought.

PN518

MR KENNEDY: I do, Commissioner, and it arises out of paragraph 15 in the employer's submissions, Commissioner, which I only had the benefit of seeing last night, Commissioner.

PN519

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, give some thought to that and I don't say you have got to raise it immediately after the lunch break but I do want if you are going to - and I will be particular. If you are going to call up as part of your argument whether it is jurisdictionally or in a more general sense, the misapplication of the agreement, particularly in terms of the mobility element, then please give some thought to that. Tell Mr Patterson so he is put on notice about that and that will form part of the case. For the time being we are going to adjourn now until 2.15.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.51pm]

RESUMED [2.31pm]

PN520

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Kennedy.

PN521

MR KENNEDY: If it is convenient to the Commission, I was touching on the jurisdictional questions which is an issue I would like to return to but I want to take this opportunity now, Commissioner, to start to deal with some of the evidence from our witnesses, Commissioner.

PN522

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN523

MR KENNEDY: So if it is convenient we would like to call Constable Pat Hudson, band leader.

PN524

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Now, I take it the other uniformed members are going to give evidence, is that so?

PN525

MR KENNEDY: Yes, Commissioner.

PN526

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it might be easier if the others leave us now.

PN527

MR KENNEDY: Yes.

<PATRICK HUDSON, SWORN [2.31pm]

PN528

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Baldini.

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR BALDINI

PN529

MR BALDINI: Thank you, sir.

PN530

Constable Hudson, what position do you hold or what is your rank within Victoria Police?---My rank within the Victoria Police is Constable.

PN531

And your position within the police band?---I occupy the position of band leader, show band and I play trombone with show band as well.

PN532

And that position is a recognised position within the band?---Yes, it is.

PN533

In fact you have a name tag?---Yes.

PN534

I don't know if the Commission can see it from there?

PN535

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I can't but perhaps the witness could read it to me.

PN536

MR BALDINI: Yes, if I could just get you to read out what is on the name tag?---It says Pat Hudson, Band Leader.

PN537

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN538

MR BALDINI: And is your position mentioned anywhere within official documented is documented in the SOPs which is the standing operating procedures of the station.

PN539

How long have you been employed with the police bands?---Approximately 13 years.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN540

And your background in music?---Prior to joining the Victoria Police bands I was a member of the RAAF central brand and before that time I was freelance musician, musical teacher and tutor.

PN541

Now, I have the witness statements which were included in K1 but what was included in K1 wasn't signed so I have a copy of the signed statement and this can replace what is in K1.

PN542

THE COMMISSIONER: Constable Hudson, you say that this signed statement that my associate has given me, I think given to her by your representative, do you say that that is true and correct in every detail of which you are aware?---That is right, sir.

PN543

Thank you, all right. Mr Patterson.

PN544

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, as forewarned in preliminary discussions, there was an issue in relation to our position that we wanted to object to a number of matters relating to terms and conditions of employment. It is probably appropriate, or it might not be appropriate but I intend to object to the handing of this statement because it does turn to a number of points in the statement in relation to the terms and conditions of employment. As such, Commissioner, a number of those statements we would request that they be struck out of the statement.

PN545

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Do you want to put this with the witness here? Do you want the witness to go out? Are you going to go through these now?

PN546

MR BALDINI: I was going to take Constable Hudson to a number of areas that were not covered in his initial statement and ask him to expand on a number of matters but Mr Patterson asked to lodge his objection before I had the opportunity to do that.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN547

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Thanks, Mr Baldini. Well, I will hear you, Mr Patterson, but there are some - you want to identify, is this right, which part of the witness statement you object to?

PN548

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN549

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. And my question to you is do you want to have that identification and any questions that I might have about it, do you want the witness to go outside while you deal with those?

PN550

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, I have no objection whether the witness is here or not.

PN551

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN552

MR PATTERSON: It is not about the veracity of his actual statement. It is about that he turns to the issues of terms and conditions of employment.

PN553

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN554

MR PATTERSON: So it is neither here nor there whether Constable Hudson is here or not.

PN555

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Well, which are the portions you wish to identify, Mr Patterson?

PN556

MR PATTERSON: Thank you, Commissioner. Unfortunately the witness statements aren't numbered and so I will have to try and just take you through some of the pages. Now, on page 7 of the one that I have that I am using from K1 - - -

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN557

THE COMMISSIONER: Have you got Mr Hudson's? Have you got the witness's witness statement?

PN558

MR PATTERSON: I am presuming it is the same, Commissioner. I am presuming that it is no difference.

PN559

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let us assume it is the same. We will ask Mr Hudson. Have you made any different witness statements?---No, sir.

PN560

All right. Well, let us assume that it is the same as the one that has been signed that is now on file. But the paragraphs are numbered.

PN561

MR PATTERSON: Yes, some of them are, Commissioner, but they are not all sort of - as an example, paragraph 14 goes over on a number of pages.

PN562

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. We will go through the objected provisions and we will see how we go.

PN563

MR PATTERSON: On page 7 which is 14 and halfway down the page it commences:

PN564

In the past the bands have completed their musical task -

PN565

have you got that, Commissioner?

PN566

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN567

MR PATTERSON: So we object to that paragraph. We object to the following paragraph that commences:

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN568

It is not physically possible to play musical instruments.

PN569

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN570

MR PATTERSON: On the following page, Commissioner.

PN571

THE COMMISSIONER: So should I mark "in the past" to "at home after work", those two paragraphs are objected to?

PN572

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner. Yes.

PN573

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes.

PN574

MR PATTERSON: The following paragraph, "I strongly believe that this management approach." That whole paragraph again object to.

PN575

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let us start, "Within the past", that is the second full paragraph on that page and your objection goes to the next paragraph which is "It is not physically possible." The next paragraph, "I strongly believe."

PN576

MR PATTERSON: That is correct, Commissioner, yes. So we object to that paragraph as well.

PN577

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN578

MR PATTERSON: The following page.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN579

THE COMMISSIONER: So it finishes, "A creative environment", then this objection?

PN580

MR PATTERSON: That is correct.

PN581

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you. I have marked that.

PN582

MR PATTERSON: There is a following page. The second paragraph commencing:

PN583

The band depot was closed for six months.

PN584

We object to that whole paragraph. And they are the only points under that provision that we object to in relation to the terms and conditions.

[2.39pm]

PN585

THE COMMISSIONER: Good, thanks, Mr Patterson.

PN586

MR PATTERSON: Now, Commissioner, there may be an issue here that we need to follow up with you and that is whether you need to rule on that objection now or not and the reason for that is because we do not know at this stage whether we should cross-examine the witness in respect to those particular paragraphs. So we now ask whether or not you should make that ruling. If the Commission pleases.

PN587

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. I think it will be - Mr Patterson, I have heard the outline of your argument and I know that you are going to expand on it. I am not going to rule on the jurisdictional points and I won't rule on what I am going to term your third point and I know you know what I mean by that, the terms of band members. I am not going to rule on that point now and so I am going to hear the case in totality.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN588

I will hear whatever you choose to put in reply and then I will hear your final addresses as to relevance and in relation to all the jurisdictional points that you - I have it out of sequence, don't I. Jurisdictional points first possibly and then your response to the case as it is put. Now, for that reason I have made the notation, carefully noted the areas you object and it is a matter for you of course but I think it would help me if you did cross-examine on the document at large and no prejudice can attach to you because I will hear you later.

PN589

MR PATTERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN590

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you.

PN591

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, I just foreshadow too that I will be likewise doing that for the witness statement for Karen Doherty as well. If the Commission pleases.

PN592

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Thank you. Yes, Mr Baldini.

PN593

MR BALDINI: Thank you.

PN594

Constable Hudson, if I could take you to attachment B to your witness statement. Now, in the marvels of word processing attachment B is actually physically in front of attachment A. Now, can you just confirm to the Commission or advise the Commission, are those your roles, the tasks that you perform?---Yes, sir, they are.

PN595

And if I could take you to attachment A over the page. Is that the structure as the band is currently running?---Yes, Commissioner, that is the structure the band is currently in at the moment, sir.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN596

And could you advise the Commission where you sit in that structure?---On the left of that table, sir, I am the band leader show band.

PN597

And the two inspectors at the top of that structure, who are they?---One inspector is Inspector Michael Pine who has traditionally been in charge of the left hand side of the table including show band and Code One and one inspector is Inspector Matt Russell who has been in charge of the pipe band which is the right side of the table.

PN598

How much knowledge would you say Matt Russell has of the show band?---Matt Russell, sir, have a working knowledge of the show band but a minimal musical knowledge. He is an expert in pipes and what pipes can do but not an expert in harmony and structure and chord structure that can be done with more than just a single note instrument. I don't know whether you know much about pipes but they basically have the drones that play the single solid non changing sound that you hear and the chanter plays the melody across the top of that. So basically pipes play just a melody line, where as the show band/Code one play a lot of chordal work. There is lots of harmony built into the notes below those and the instruments have a lot more notes in the pipes. There is a lot more electronic equipment and arranging and it is a completely different kettle of fish to a pipe band. So he is an expert in pipes but has minimal knowledge in the operation of the show band.

PN599

In the role that you have described in appendix B, which of those tasks would you regularly perform?---Did you want me to go through those one at a time?

PN600

No, I think if you can just give the Commission a broad outline?---Basically, sir, I perform any of these tasks as required, depending on the contingencies of the job and the task at hand, they may be more or less frequent at any given time. For instance, just scanning down there where it says organising accommodation and meals when required, that will only happen infrequently as the band travels of course. Some of the other things like the event management will happen with the big events. Like we have a couple of big balls coming up later this month, later in July, that I have been involved with pre-production

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

meetings for the last couple of months with those things. The rostering is prepared fortnightly for the members and monthly for the bands. A calendar of events is kept and the data base is kept up to date constantly. So most of these roles are done, as I say, depending on what is required at the time but they are all permanent roles.

PN601

Perhaps if you would just take the Commission through the role that you take in the development of a particular engagement?---As in when an engagement request comes in?

PN602

A particular event, yes?---Sir, when the - an engagement can come in through a letter of request through an external client or from an internal client which would be another unit or commander in the VP, in the Victorian Police, or it can be some events initiated from within the bands to fulfil our public relations role. Once that letter of request comes in we assess its - or I assess its viability and applicability to our role within the Victorian Police and the criteria that is set out in the SOPs which are the standard operating procedures. I then make recommendations based on that to the officer in charge and the officer in charge approves or not approves the performance. Once that is approved, sir, that comes back to me. The file's data base, the roster is added to and then we start the final negotiation deals with the clients for the venues and that will be any special musical requirements they have. If we are backing guest performers we need to arrange music for them and we need to arrange rehearsal time. Frequently with venues we need to go out and see the venues to make sure we can physically fit in there, make sure we can access the gear in there and make sure that it is acoustically viable and all these tasks once they are completed leads to hopefully a successful performance, sir.

PN603

Perhaps if you just continue your description once you get to the venue?---Once we get to the venue, Commissioner, again it can vary depending on the venue that we have. Access needs to be safely assessed if it hasn't previously been done on a reconnaissance trip. The truck is unloaded and the gear taken to the performance area of the venue and set up and final liaison with the clients with lighting, with sound, with all the special things like that occur at that time. We assess the demographic of the audience to assist in choosing a program suitable for the event if we haven't previously done and then we set up, do what we need to do and hopefully another successful performance.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN604

Can I just take you briefly back to the setting up of a performance. Who is responsible for the musical choice, liaison with the client and music to be played and the musical requirements?---Generally, Commissioner, we will, as I say, assess the demographic of the audience and have a look. The musical director will be responsible for choosing the program that is applicable to that specific demographic in order to achieve the best outcome for the bands and for the clients. If she hasn't previously been there or if I have previous knowledge I will assist her in that task with ascertaining what the demographic is or is about to be, as frequently we set up quite a time before the audience are actually there.

PN605

What proportion of your time would you spend on event planning?---Do you mean proportion of my time as a band leader or as a whole?

PN606

As a whole?---As a whole, sir, part of my core function is to play trombone with the band. I play trombone and I play a couple of contingency instruments. If other people are sick I cover those. I also perform a vocal and an MC role which enables me to tie up the show as we are going. Outside of the performance role I would say in a percentage figure it would probably be around 50 per cent of my time would be spent on event management or event planning, but again that will change depending on what the requirement is. In the winter months that we are doing now, sir, we do a lot of school concerts, a lot of school performances and we also do a lot of balls. The school performances generally don't require as much event planning as a ball, or a charity function, or a corporate function or similar to that would require. One of the balls we are doing later in July we are sharing part of that ball with the John Farnham band, so as you can imagine there is sound, there is lights, there is logistics, there is staging, there is a whole range of issues that need to be factored in, as opposed to attending a school to do a school performance which are generally relatively easily managed.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN607

Now, you identified the instruction that is attached to your statement. You have got a show band 2IC and a musical director. Can you tell the Commission what role each of those play whilst you are filling your roles?---Commissioner, when writing my statement I tried to clarify this into non musical terms and I think the terms that I came up with was the band leader is the manager of the area, manager of the band, the musical director is the product manager so she in this case is responsible for the delivery of the highest possible standard of product and the assistance band leader is the assistant manager. I used those terminologies to try and illustrate a comparison to a lay example. The musical director is responsible for the level of musicianship of the band. She is responsible for rehearsing the band and ensuring that the band delivers a high standard of product, as is always required. She is responsible to me to do that and in conjunction with me. The assistant band leader will take on the function of assisting me with event management, assisting me with admin tasks such as rostering, planning and basically all the things in attachment B. As I said, not only do I perform with the band as well but the assistant band leader and musical director also perform with the band and what we find ourselves is that we run out of hours and there is just not enough time in the day to perform with the band and these tasks on top. So it is appropriate that three people do it. It would be even better if there were more than three people doing it, sir. Does that clarify?

PN608

Yes. So would you say there would be a need for all three positions?---Absolutely. There are three distinct and clear positions. The band leader position, sir, is more like a producer, director or the artistic coordinator of the whole product as well as the administrative manager of it and it is broken down into separate components. The assistant band leader assists me with this because it is physically too much for one person to do. The musical director has a full time job with what she does outside of the performance role. She spends a great deal of time arranging the music, organising other arrangements with the band structure and their time. She spends a great deal of time researching music to ensure that we remain contemporary and relevant to the people that we play to. She will spend a lot of time listening to CDs, searching the internet, searching record stores, listening to the top 40, all those things that she needs to keep herself contemporary and keep herself on top of it. If she wasn't allowed to do that then she wouldn't have that musical director role and that wouldn't be being done. If she was, for instance, expected to take up some of the roles of the assistant band leader then it just wouldn't be enough for one person. There would be too much for one person to do in two completely different areas.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN609

Now, who appointed you in your current position?---I was currently appointed, sir, by Inspector Michael Pine to be band leader of the show band.

PN610

And the music director?---Musical director as well as the assistant band leader, sir, were both appointed by Michael Pine in consultation with myself.

PN611

Could I just take you back to attachment B to your statement and that list of tasks. Which of those tasks are also performed by the inspectors or which of those tasks do you assist the inspector in performing, if you could go through and identify the tasks that fit into that category?---Sir, I would have to say straight off the top of my head the second point:

PN612

Ensure the units meet the criteria of the Victoria Police Department - - -

PN613

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Baldini - Mr Hudson, I just ask you to pause, Constable Hudson. I am just not sure whether I clearly understand the question because I think it might have been two - can you perhaps put the question again, Mr Baldini, it will help me.

PN614

MR BALDINI: Certainly, yes. What I am asking is of the list of duties that the band leader has given evidence that he performs which of those duties are performed either by the inspector or in conjunction with the inspector or alternatively with the band leader assisting the inspector?

PN615

THE COMMISSIONER: Go on, Mr Hudson?---I think I understand, sir. The second dot point, ensuring the units meet the criteria, whilst the inspectors don't leave the office and work with the bands they do have a tacit role in ensuring that through the band leaders and the point after that as well.

PN616

So with those two what is your evidence, that the inspector has an interest in these things?---Simply as officer in charge they have a tacit interest in ensuring that we continually strive to meet the highest standard and ensuring that we meet the criteria of the Victoria Police Department and the officer - - -

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN617

MR BALDINI: Would they - I am sorry?---That is okay. I was going to say the officer in charge, sir, supervises the standard operating procedures which both cover that.

PN618

Would they ensure that these standards are being met themselves or would they rely on your reports?---Generally they would rely on my reports, sir, for that sort of thing. As I stated, the inspector don't work with the bands in the field and they would rely on me to tell them if there was a problem because they wouldn't be there to witness it themselves.

PN619

What other tasks fall into those categories?---The two dot points down, starting internal and external correspondence. They may do that to some level before it is passed onto the band. Once it is passed onto the band leader, for instance, sir, in the Victoria Police we have in the bands it is nothing for me to deal with Government House in organising an event for the band but when we have our internal clients in the Victoria Police Department there is the protocol of assistant commissioner talks to assistant commissioner and super talk to super and inspector talks to inspector. So that protocol happens first, then the file gets down to the bands and the band takes over the running over the function from that point, the band leader. So initially internal and external correspondence, whilst the external correspondence - the internal correspondence is in that form, the external correspondence, every letter of approval or rejection is signed by the inspectors after recommendations by the band leaders. I think, sir, when I talk you through before the process of accepting a job I might have touched on that, that a letter of approval goes out, but I might not have stated that they had signed that letter, so their names are on that one. The dot point, negotiate request for the bands, they don't directly negotiate requests for the band, sir, but if there are fees involved or donations to be negotiations then the inspector does that because that is not done at my level, sir. I am just scanning down at the moment, sir. The dot point approximately halfway down that begins with participate in auditions, the officer in charge when it was Inspector Michael Pine would participate in some part of the auditions and trials, maybe not the initial things we go through a numerous number of candidates but certainly when we get to the final dot points. Inspector Michael Pine has been on long term leave for approximately eight months now and we have Inspector Russell who is the Pipe Manager and an Acting Inspector from Transit who has no band experience or musical experience. So if we were to audition somebody now neither of those inspectors would take part in that audition process.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN620

THE COMMISSIONER: Did you say either or neither?---Neither of those if we were to audition someone at the current time. But in the past, sir, the inspectors have had that experience to do that.

PN621

So how does it work then, Constable Hudson? If you hear some - if you audition some applicants do you make a recommendation to - - -?---Yes, sir, yes.

PN622

- - - Inspector Pine's replacement?---Yes, sir. What would happen now and to a large extent I am ..... this because it hasn't happened, but what would happen with a non musical person in the spot is the band leader, musical director and assistant band leader, relevant section leaders or instrumentalists if required would participate in the audition process. We would make our recommendations to the officer in charge and he would take over from that point by going through the police protocol. He would interview them. He would assess their suitability from a police point of view to fulfil the function and he would take them through the necessary recruitment phases of the aptitude test and the medical and all that sort of thing. So we would assess the musical applicability to the job and he would assess the personnel suitability to police. Further down in the management of sick leave and management of WorkCover issues, the inspectors and the management of leave inquiries, those three management ones, the inspectors would authorise and oversee that. With the management of leave requirements that comes to the band leader initially and as band leader when somebody applies for leave - let me digress for a minute, Commissioner, and explain it. The bands generally work as a unit and as a whole so if the bands are to take leave we encourage all members to take leave as a block because otherwise we would end up with half a band at work and half a band on leave and it doesn't function. So generally we are all at work together and we are all on leave together. Occasionally members apply for leave, what we call out of sync with the rest of the band. When this happens that application comes to me for my recommendations and I forward that onto the officer in charge with recommendations such as we have high profile events on this week and we can't do without them, or we can do without them, we can cover this spot for this period, that sort of recommendation. Management of sick leave and management of WorkCover issues are managed as any police manager would manager them, however at a band level we need

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

to manage the outcomes of that person not being there and put in contingency plans to cover their instrument. If it is a - some instruments are more vital than others. We have many members in the band that are multi instrumentalists and can cover other spots. We can also adjust things program wise and things with the clients and venues if there need be, but those things are all managed at band leader level. Welfare and morale of their members further down in the dot points, by the fact that the officer in charge is directly responsible for the health, well being and welfare of the members and they would take responsibility as well, however, sir, at a front line level that it is the band leader's job to ensure that the bands are happy and morale is high. In turn that ensures a high product. Part of our job is to not just play music to the highest standard, Commissioner, but also to promote the Victoria Police Force in a positive manner and to do that the bands need to have high spirits and need to be on the stage smiling and happy and presenting that positive image of police and that happens on a daily level at band leader level and assistant band leader, musical director. All those positions are responsible for keeping the vibe, Commissioner, for want of a better word, and making sure that members are in a state to project that image.

PN623

You agree sometimes, Constable Hudson, that some members of bands loathe each other so much they have to be positioned away from each other because they bump each other and there are famous instances of people pushing and they can't co-exist even on the stage in the clear of the spotlight?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN624

You would manage that situation, would you?---Well, absolutely. That happens frequently with the bands. The show band is 23 members. 23 members is often a little bit easier because it will give people space away from the people they are not getting on with on a daily basis.

PN625

Yes. Well, I don't want to draw you out on that?---But when you mix artistic temperaments in a room you are always going to get something like that, Commissioner.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN626

It sometimes happens in these rooms too but not very often fortunately?---I am sure. Supervising members time sheets and other paperwork, that is directly the inspector's job to authorise that in a supervising way. However, the inspectors have both put that responsibility to band leaders to ensure that the time sheets and all other paperwork is correct before it gets to the inspectors. So the inspectors need to authorise and certify all time sheets and paperwork but we have been given the task of making sure that the members have spelt everything correctly, entered the right hours and the right information before it gets to the inspectors.

[3.06pm]

PN627

Is that a good example of a task that falls to the inspectors, is this your evidence, that you have to ensure it is right before it goes up?---That is right.

PN628

All right?---That is right, sir, yes. Counselling of members as required was one we were talking about and conflict resolution was we were just talking about a minute ago with the artistic temperament, sir. The top of the second page, sir, occupational health and safety issues. I have a dual role of being band leader of the Victoria Police show band and being occupational health and safety employee rep for the bands unit and Inspector Pine was previously the management OH and S rep and by default the acting inspector now has that. So whilst the acting inspector has no personal experience on the musical issues associated with OH and S he certainly is consulted with on all issues whether he has experience or not. So he is involved in that from a management rep point of view. Management of overtime and toil, again that is another example which is probably the direct responsibility of the inspector in charge. However, for the same reason that we can't allow band members to take leave when they want to take leave and we need to have them all there or not there predominantly most of the time, the same is the case with overtime and toil. The band leaders manage overtime in the sense that the band leaders are the ones organising the performances and unlike other areas of the Victoria Police Department, sir, we can predict relatively accurately how much overtime we are going to work in a 12 month period. We can look at events that are on our calendar for February/March next year and know exactly what the timings are, what time we need to leave, how long we are going to be there, what time we

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

need to set up, what time we get back. So overtime can be forecasted and in that sense is managed by the band leader. The toil is the time that the - there is no overtime paid to band members and time is taken hour for hour back. So it is the band leader's job to manage that toil and make sure that members take their time back as required. Initiating purchase procedures and initiating recruiting procedures, both those items there will need to be authorised by the inspector or officer in charge but at this level we are talking about the initiation of and the initiation of that happens at band leader level or below. Initiating purchase procedures may happen with the individual musician, sir, as they break something or require something. They can pen issue papers or 47s which get forwarded to me and then to the inspector for approval. Production and publication of media releases, I believe that the policy on that is about to change but has previously been what the band leader or assistant band leader has done. Liaison with media agencies, that happens sometimes pre the performance, sir, where we might talk to a local paper or a local radio station in rural areas, for example, happens quite frequently. It also happens on the job where we are not expecting it where we will end up at a performance and there will be television or print media there and it is the band leader's job to liaise with that media agency and ensure that the correct things are being said and that the band members are audited I guess, for want of a better word, with what they are talking, that the media gets the correct names, that they know why we are there, what we are there, who we are and basically just take the questions from the media as needed. And the rest of those points, sir, pertain to my role as trombone player within the band and they apply to each and every basic musician within the bands.

PN629

MR BALDINI: Just briefly, what limitation would be placed on the inspector's role if the inspector did not have any musical knowledge?---I am sorry, what was the - - -

PN630

What limitation would be placed on the inspector's role if the inspector did not have any musical knowledge?---Without musical knowledge, Commissioner, we are faced at the moment in that exact predicament whereby we have an acting inspector from transit who doesn't have a background in music and we have Inspector Russell who has a proficiency and expertise in pipes but not in what we do. The problem with that occurs when we are trying to discuss venues, for instance. They don't understand acoustics and viabilities of venues. They don't understand performance times and performance material. It comes

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

down to issues with purchasing equipment, resourcing, personnel, rostering, to take into account when members can and when members can't play. It is also difficult to explain, sir, to non musical officers in charge how the - we were talking about before the artistic temperaments, how they fit in on a day to day basis with people's personalities and idiosyncrasies that will bring out the best of their talent as opposed to bring out the worst of their talent and I guess if I thought about it for a while there would be a whole range of issues that would make it difficult and I think the biggest point, sir, of having a non musician in charge of the bands, the biggest problem would occur when at some point inevitably in the future there would be a conflict between what is right musically and what is right managerially and if the two didn't have a good relationship and a good understanding of where their expertise lay and whose job it was to make what call at what time, then that could cause great problems with the bands and musical product, or vice-versa. It could cause great problems for the management structure within Vic Pol.

PN631

If I could just take to the skills that you need as a band member and just ask you from your experience with other bands and orchestras. Are there any skills that they are required to have in the police band that other bands and orchestras would not be required to display?---As far as orchestras go, Commissioner, there are quite a few. Initially the orchestras will never have to march and play at the same time. It is difficult and a completely different embouchure for your mouth and way of playing when you are moving around while you are doing it and marching up the street as it is when you are static, I don't know any musicians that have learnt to do that when they have learnt to - learned to play the instrument. That is just something that, you know, we are all taught to stand still or to sit still and have the right posture and all that sort of stuff. Then when you join the police band, sir, you are asked to hold that instrument on your face and march up the street, so that is something that is peculiar to the Victoria Police bands as opposed to orchestras. Something else that is different to the orchestras is the fact that the police bands are required to be multi instrumentalists. We all have to cover contingency spots when people are sick, or when they are on leave, or otherwise absented. The orchestras have facility and budget to call people in to cover those spots, sir, when they are not there so an orchestra will always be a full orchestra with people on their principal instruments all the time, whereas the bands will have to make do. So we make sure that people if they don't have a secondary skill when they come to us, then we encourage them to take one up. It is also important for police band members, Commissioner, to be multi-skilled and not just multi

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

instrumentalists. We have instrumentalists who can solder to fix the electrical equipment. We have instrumentalists who are carpenters, instrumentalists who are good at admin, instrumentalists who are good at management and they take on the band leader's roles, instrumentalists who are good at arranging, composing. Everybody takes on what roles we need to get the job done. At the Victoria Police bands, Commissioner, we don't have the support that an orchestra would have or other bands that I am aware insofar as we don't have the band, the orchestra and a admin corps. The band members currently do our own admin and musicians perform all the tasks from answering the phones to loading the trucks, to taking the gear places, to setting it up, breaking it down. With orchestras that doesn't happen that way with orchestras. They have crews that load the gear, take the gear somewhere. They have a full support personnel. They have several admin staff. They have marketing people. They have managers. They are all especially skilled in that area but not from within the orchestra.

PN632

So would the police band as opposed to a non police band, what skills would be required that a non police band wouldn't require?---The uniform plays a big factor in what we do with the Victoria Police bands. I noticed, Commissioner, when coming across from the RAAF band to here the RAAF band also had a high standard of performance but it was primarily an in-house band that was there as almost an indulgence for the RAAF but was there primarily to serve ceremonial and RAAF functions. When I come across to the Victoria Police band it was evident fairly quickly that whilst we were all musicians we were all required to perform a role as public relations people out there to promote the image of the Victoria Police Force in a positive manner. That is a role that is often foreign to most musicians because they are used to performing. They are used to standing up in front of crowds and doing what they do best, but generally speaking musicians have only been tacit PR people in the past and not overt PR and that is what the Victoria Police are once we put this uniform on and stand down on Collins Place for instance where representing the Victoria Police Force and we are in a public relations promotional role and I think that would be different to VP bands as opposed other bands that I have been in before.

PN633

When you say in the past musicians have not had that role are you referring to musicians in general or Victoria Police musicians?---No, I am referring to musicians in general, Commissioner. I don't mean Victoria Police. Victoria Police have always had that role. I meant in my past life as musician.

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PN634

If I could just take you back to the organisation of performances briefly. You have described the additional work you do and how much is done by the officer in charge and you have alluded to the administrative assistance you get. If I could just have a moment. No, look, I will not proceed with that. If I could just ask you about the individual practice component of playing music. Can you tell the Commission what role that plays in your being a member of the police bands?---Commissioner, as a musician at a high standard that the Victoria Police bands are as comparable to other orchestras that are used as examples here, musicians are required to do one to two hours practice a day every day, whether that be weekends, leave days. That is just basically every day. Again that will vary on the workload of playing commitments during the day. The art of - or the act of performing a musical instrument is a physical and emotional act. It requires the use of muscles, use of dexterity, the use of the mind. With the emotion of music involved in it, Commissioner, it also produces highs and lows in the bodies. We can be at work feeling like rubbish and finish a performance feeling like a million dollars because of the rush that music will give you. That also creates a bit more exhaustion, depending on the type of gig, the type of job, the reaction from the audience, the performance time, all those sort of things, sir. So that will affect the person's requirement to practice before that performance and/or after that performance. For those reasons outlined it is not practical for a musician to play for a considerable amount of time. We tend to roster people so that the performance time doesn't exceed what is possible or practical. Like all forms of exercise and is practice is an exercise, it is using the muscles and the dexterity, and like all forms of skill, if you don't use it you lose it as they say and like all forms of exercise every individual is different. Some of the individuals in the band will practice and practice and practice. Other individuals need to practice hard and then break, then practice hard, then break. Other individuals like to practice before a performance. Some like to practice after and it comes down to whatever does it for the individual. If that is what is going to help you maintain and increase your hight standard then that is what you do. If we look at a month of - we have got a couple of heavy months of balls coming up where the brass players will do more practice leading up to those months than they would normally do and the reason for that is because each of those balls will be at least four hours playing time and we need to have that endurance to get through those jobs.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN635

With the practice you do, what proportion needs to be individual and what proportion can you do with other people?---Commissioner, there are two distinct sorts of practice. Trying to come up with a non musical analogy again using practice as a form of training, the individual practice would be the weight training, the aerobic training, the mind training, all that sort of thing, whereas the ensemble practice would be what you would get at the footy training with the coach, with the team members, that you can take that out and put that on the field. So the practice that you do as an ensemble is limited to that ensemble and how everybody is at the time and once that product is put together that product is put together, but the individual practice is required to make sure that each individual musician maintains that standard of muscle fitness and dexterity to ensure that that performance is always the same as the way they rehearsed it with the ensemble. I am not sure whether I am explaining that too well, Commissioner, but they are two distinct differences between ensemble practice and individual practice.

PN636

THE COMMISSIONER: I think the question was about proportion, individual practice and group practice.

PN637

MR BALDINI: Well, perhaps if I could rephrase the question.

PN638

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN639

MR BALDINI: Is there a minimum number of hours you would have to do in individual practice?---Again, Commissioner, that would depend on what the planning requirement was around the period of time, but as stated, the minimum number of hours would be an hour a day. Sometimes that can be achieved on a performance day if the light is load - if the load is light. Other times, sir, that will have to be done afterwards because the muscles need time to be - like in the case of the wind instruments and the blowers they need time to be refuelled and refilled with blood and relaxed before they get stressed out again with the practice.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN640

Do you get the opportunity to practice at the band centre, to do your individual practice at the band centre?---It is a difficult thing, Commissioner, at the band centre. We have our admin officers including right up to officer in charge all in close proximity to the areas designated as rehearsal areas so if any one person, or one piper, or one instrumentalist is rehearsing it disturbs everybody. In that instance if we have two people rehearsing individually they are disturbing each other. We have a couple of old shipping containers in the depot outside that are rusty leaking which members resort to going out in to warm up and do small amounts of practice in. But it would be physically impossible to have every member there doing individual practice at the same time. It was just be a cacophony of noise and there would be no distinction between anything.

PN641

THE COMMISSIONER: You could imagine a couple of pipers practicing in several shipping containers might have someone call the police?---Yes, we have had that happen before, Commissioner, as well.

PN642

MR BALDINI: So if you can't practice at the band centre where do you practice?---Individual practice, Commissioner, is predominantly done in our own time at home. Some members live in close proximity to the band centre and will come back after hours and do their rehearsal there. But predominantly it is done at home, as it has been, you know, since the time we became musicians.

PN643

What about your other duties such as arranging and composing, the other musical duties you have. Are you able to fit all those into the time you have at the band centre?---This is me individually?

PN644

Well, if I could start with you individually?---Yes. Myself individually, Commissioner, I have difficulty fitting everything I am required to do into a day let alone everything I would like to do in a day, so the answer to that question is no, I don't.

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PN645

So when do you do that?---I do that work, Commissioner, at home in my own time after hours, as required to get it done.

PN646

What about the other members of the band?---The other members of the band are similar. Karen Doherty who is the musical director is our principal music arranger. She does music arranging from work, in the computer at work, but again we have all the officers in the same proximity as each other and there are a lot of distractions there. There are phones ringing, there are people in and out, there are musicians ..... there are trucks coming and going and she gets a minimal amount of work done there, although she fulfils her time there to get that work done. But she will finish the arrangements at home on her own computer, in her own time because there aren't enough hours in the day. She also, as I stated, sir, performs with the band as well so that takes up a proportion of the day.

PN647

What about other band members, the rank and file band members, if I could call them that?---Rank and file band members have varying secondary duties, some of them extensive, some of them not. Traditionally bands have always had the old show must go on attitude and work has been completed as it has been required to be completed wherever and whenever it has to be completed to get the task done.

PN648

So for yourself how many hours a week would you work, at a guess?---At a guess, Commissioner, and I was doing some figures a while back, I would say it would average between 40 and 60 hours a week, sometimes more.

PN649

Now, if I could just deal with a number of other issues. Who writes the rosters for the show band?---I write the rosters, sir.

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PN650

So if I could ask you, on average how long are the performances?---Performances may vary depending what they are. School performances will generally be an hour in duration. If it is a large school or if we are able to encourage primary schools into a large venue then we may do two or more performances in the one day. Balls and dinner dances will be up to four hours playing time in duration, however with those events we need to be set up and sound checked and out of the way of the clients before they open the doors for pre-dinner drinks, so invariably they stretch out to well beyond eight hours by the time we get loaded and get back. When there is travel involved obviously that increases. Performance time isn't always the only time factor involved in what we do.

PN651

So how many hours again roughly would you spend at performances per week?---Per week it would be anything from five hours performance right up to - you have caught me with my mental maths now. Basically right up to 40 hours or more a week, depending on - it wouldn't be actual performance time of 40 hours.

PN652

So if we talked about time away from the band centre per week?---Time away from the band centre per week, again if we look at the June roster, the June roster is predominantly schools and the time away from the band centre probably averages between four and six hours I would imagine, not having calculated it myself. On a school day that is. When we look at the - - -

PN653

Six hours per day?---On a school day that could be the case if the school is local, yes. On the April/May roster, the April roster for instance, the second half of April we were averaging 12 hours plus away from the band centre for the last two weeks of that.

PN654

Twelve hours a day?---We had a couple of heavy events, Commissioner. Some of them were in Hamilton. We had a long event with the World Health Organisation over two days and yes, there was a couple of long days in there.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN655

Do you help with the loading and unloading?---Yes, Commissioner, I do. I drive the truck predominantly. It is my little office away from the office and yes, it is all backs in when it comes to unloading the equipment and setting it up.

PN656

When you say all backs in, that is everyone pitches in, is that what you mean?---Absolutely.

PN657

Is there anyone who only has the job of playing an instrument? Are there any band members in the show band whose sole job is to play the instrument?---Not within the show band, Commissioner, but I can't answer for the pipe band.

PN658

THE COMMISSIONER: No prima donnas---And not within Code One. Not that I am aware of, no.

PN659

MR BALDINI: Constable Hudson is the show band manager so can - so everybody else has other duties?---That is it, yes.

PN660

Now, in your statement you detail the other experience you have had. So if I could just ask you to compare the music that the police bands play. Is that technically simple or easy or less variant that say a symphony orchestra?---This is a difficult question to pin down to a five minute answer, Commissioner, but I will give it a go anyway.

PN661

The music that all top level ensembles play and that is the MSO military bands or ourselves varies a great deal in standard. Some of our military music, some of our top 40 music is quite basic, although it can be termed technically difficult to get all the parts together, the individual parts are quite non challenging. Some of the show band charts we are playing, we play show band arrangements that very few other show bands in Australia would play. One in fact that we purchased off Ed Wilson Arranging in Sydney was the only copy

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

of that that he had sold because no-one else wanted to tackle it. So we are in the unique situation where we are one of the very few full time show bands in Australia so to make a direct comparison is difficult. Likewise the orchestra, MSO use for an example, I remember seeing the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra when they were backing Frank Sinatra, I saw that concert. I saw them when they were backing Kiss. Now, Frank Sinatra for instance brought out his son, Frank Junior, who was the musical director for the show. He brought out a lot of his big band and the orchestra were playing predominantly long notes and embellishments behind that so their task was relatively simplistic compared to things. Likewise I have heard the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra complex classical compositions by well known composers that other orchestra would find a challenge. So making a comparison between a full on orchestra and a show band is difficult because they are two completely different kettles of fish. But in summary I would have to say that they do what they do very well but they don't do what we do and we do what we do very well but we don't do what they do. So we are completely different ensembles, different styles. So as far as whether it is technically complex, absolutely. We have got several of our soloist instrumentalists are regarded as some of the best in Australia and reputedly musicians will stand in front of them and testify that the solos that they are playing are technically difficult and there are very few people that could do it. Likewise I could stand in front of an orchestra and say the same thing with some of their soloists.

[3.36pm]

PN662

Could you briefly comment on the quality of the pipe band?---Commissioner, whilst - - -

PN663

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Baldini, is there going to be some evidence from a pipe band person? Perhaps I should know that but I don't know that I do know it.

PN664

MR BALDINI: Yes. We tossed up but we felt that the material regarding the quality of the pipe band could be covered by very brief evidence by Constable Hudson and certainly followed up in the inspection and I appreciate that if there is any need to go into depth in relation to the quality of the pipe band we can certainly arrange that but at this stage we hadn't planned to.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN665

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, push on and see what Mr Patterson says if anything.

PN666

MR BALDINI: It is a balance, yes?---Commissioner, I don't state to be an expert in pipes but the quality of the pipe band is quite easily answered insofar as in 1998 the Victorian Police pipe band went to Glasgow and were declared by the world championships as the best in the world. So there is no other benchmark for the Victoria Police pipe band.

PN667

Hard to argue with the competition. And again, with Code One, again if you would just make a general comment?---Yes, with Code One, Commissioner, again this is general comment, Code One predominantly play top 40 music to the younger community of Victoria. Their role is to mimic, for want of a better word, the top 40 charts that we hear on the radio and on the rage television shows and all that sort of thing. In order to do that they have got to have great flexibility and dexterity in their instruments. The solos that you hear the top 40 bands around the world play and the vocals that they do Code One do as well. So the standard of performance of Code One needs to be high for the instrumentalists to cover all those solos in all those different styles.

PN668

Just very briefly would you describe the show band as a brass band?---No, Commissioner, the show band bears little resemblance to a brass band, as it does to an orchestra. Again it is a chalk and cheese comparison. We all play music but a brass band has different instruments, different repertoire, different style, different internation, different embouchures for the horns within it. I speak on some expertise as I come from a brass band background myself and, Commissioner, the show band and brass bands bear very little resemblance. It is like trying to compare the orchestra to a show band.

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PN669

Now, I know you have touched on the recruitment process. Could you just briefly describe that process to the Commission?---Commissioner, if we have the requirement to recruit, currently we do have several positions, some of which we would like to get filled. The positions would be advertised and that is done in the general media. Like it would be the Age and maybe some internet advertising. Word of mouth is obviously passed around. If it is a vocalist position that we are seeking then the vocalist will be asked to supply a demo tape and CD, maybe a portfolio with that as well. Instruments will generally be able to tell from their CV as to what experience we could reasonably expect them to have and what we might hear when we hear them. From that we will select a short list of candidates to audition. Myself, the musical director, the assistant band leader and the relevant section leader of the instrument that they are auditioning on would sit on the audition process. We would hear them do a few things of their choice. We would challenge them with a few things of our own. We would put up cite reading examples in front of them to see how they cope with it. We would have a discussion to them about their history of playing as in what their experience is, sir, and where they have come from. At that point if they were to pass that component of the audition then that short list of people or a person, we would then put with the band they were auditioning for in a rehearsal situation and put up some music for them of different styles, right up to some of the high challenging things and see how they cope with cite reading, see how they went. Cite reading is the ability, Commissioner, to instantly read music without having to take it home and learn it first, which is a skill that we all have. So we would try them on a few different styles, see how they went with the band. We would have a general discussion after that and if there was - and there should be if there was one candidate that stood out at the end of that then, as I stated earlier, Commissioner, we would then recommend that to the officer in charge of that person to take the role.

PN670

So if you get a new musician in how long would it take them to be able to be fully competent in the role, knowing the repertoire and being polished with the different types of music, playing formats, etcetera?---I would estimate on average it would be around six to eight years. It depends on which group they are in and what role they are taking on of course. The marching role takes people years to get used to. We have an example of a clarinet player in the show band who is now a tenor sax player. When he was auditioned under

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

another regime they auditioned him individually but didn't audition him with the band. They didn't put him with the band to have a play and he is a fine musician, one of the best you would hear on clarinet, fine tone, great fingers, all that sort of thing. But he took a long time to get with the swing on the band and to learn to play in harmony with the band with the internation with the style and he is not unusual. The band takes a while to settle into the repertoire and the style and what we are all about and why we are there and why we are doing it. So I guess that would be - some people are quicker, some people are slower but that is roughly an average of how long it takes to fit into the job.

PN671

And how many individual pieces of music did the show band play over the last quarter of the last calendar year?---Commissioner, we tossed up this before when I was on my lunch break and we went through the diary. We worked out in the month of May the show band, and the show band is what I speak on at this point because I won't speak for Code One and the pipe band just yet, the show band played 360 pieces of music in the month of May. Around 60 to 70 per cent of that music would have been repeat music as in played more than once. So I guess you take 100 over a month and average that out over a year and take the leave out of it, it would be two or 300 easy pieces that we play a year. The pipe band regularly brag to members of our audiences that they know over 300 songs committed to memory. The pipe band don't use music when they play. It is part of the tradition of pipes that you don't use music and that you know the tunes and the Victoria Police pipe band have a huge number committed to memory. Code One again, Code One are continually learning new repertoire. As something becomes a top 40 hit, if it is appropriate that we can do it in police uniform and some of them are not appropriate for us to do, but if it is appropriate Code One will take it up and do it but it doesn't mean that they stop using the songs that they have been using previous. So Code One over the years, Commissioner, has gathered a repertoire of four to 500 songs. So it is difficult to do a count of how long they would take, how many - - -

PN672

THE COMMISSIONER: They must drop some, Constable Hudson, otherwise they are going to be very lengthy concerts?---Yes. No, they don't perform them all at once, Commissioner.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN673

But they maintain a familiarity, do they?---Absolutely, yes, and it is the same with the show band. We have a library, Commissioner, of literally thousands of charts, thousands of songs in the library. We have a bag that we carry around with us that is full of charts that I would estimate would be in the vicinity of up to a couple of hundred charts in that bag. Now, the reason we carry that many songs around with us is so that we can assess the demographic when we get to the venue and choose the music appropriately to the demographic, as is what our job is to do.

PN674

We carry bags of cases around with us?---We carry bags of music around with us and Code One do that similar thing. So whilst they would forget a few charts if they don't use them, they generally recycle what they have learnt previously because they are always targeting the right demographic.

PN675

MR BALDINI: Were you ever given the opportunity to go to the Police Academy to do the full police course?

PN676

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, go on, Constable Hudson?---No, Commissioner, I haven't been given that opportunity before.

PN677

MR BALDINI: Is there anyone else that you know of that has sought that opportunity?---Yes, Commissioner, I can think of three that come to mind that have sought that opportunity and taken that opportunity. One member who is now at - I can't think, but there are three members. The first time a member went he was told that he needed to resign from the bands and re-apply for a spot at the academy, which he did. The second member was told the same thing and did the same thing, resigned from the bands and applied for a spot at the academy and the third member was only last year and that was a different example where that member was, and Mr Patterson will correct me, was posted, transferred to the academy for the time of the training from the bands but belonged to the bands budget, etcetera, until he completed his training I believe. So the one that went last year was a pioneer in some respects, or certainly did it differently to the ones previously to him.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN678

Have these members gone on to do operational policing working or have they come back to the bands?---They have all gone on to do operational policing work, Commissioner.

PN679

So is there anyone who has gone to the academy and have come back to the band?---Not to my knowledge.

PN680

Now, when you started at the police bands was in situ promotion mentioned to you?---Yes, Commissioner, when I started at the police bands the officer in charge of police bands when I went through my audition process and sat down with my interview with him of the several terms and conditions of employment that he explained to me in situ promotion was one of the things that he said I would be eligible for at the time and was eligible at the time for.

PN681

Would you speak up a little bit?---Yes, I was eligible for the in situ promotion when I joined.

PN682

Under what conditions?---They were under the conditions explained to us but they were also under the standard Victoria Police conditions. All Victoria Police members were entitled to in situ promotion when I joined, as were the band members.

PN683

And how long were you told this would take?---We were told this would take 10 years.

PN684

Have you ever received a - I am sorry, I will just come back to that. Were you in situ promotion?---No, Commissioner, I was not.

PN685

Have you ever received a travelling allowance?---No, Commissioner, I haven't.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN686

Never?---No.

PN687

Is your instrument provided by Victoria Police?---Currently, Commissioner, the instrument that I play is provided by the Victoria Police. I have had it for approximately a month. Prior to that time - as a member has just retired. Prior to that time I was playing my own instrument for a period of about 18 months. The times before that I have sometimes had my own instrument, sometimes not, depending on the musical requirement of the bands and the equipment held at the bands and their policy on purchasing.

PN688

And what percentage of band members would have their own instrument?---I would say, Commissioner, probably better than 90 per cent of band members have an instrument to play. Depending on the musical requirement at the time they may not have the appropriate instrument to play and may be required to play their own. For instance, a lot of the top 40 charts that show band are doing at the moment have flugelhorn requirements as opposed to trumpet requirements and our trumpet players are all, bar one, playing their own flugelhorns. Some of the sax players will use their own sax in the past if they have got something technically difficult that they prefer their sax for. We have keyboard players that sometimes use a work keyboard sometimes are required to use their own keyboards because the work keyboards don't have the appropriate sounds or patches on them. So it varies for a musical requirement.

PN689

Is there any other equipment that is provided by the members?---In the past members were provided equipment necessary for repairs and maintenance, our own solders, soldering irons, screwdrivers, tool kits all that sort of thing. Computers are a contentious issue. You have probably heard, Commissioner, before about other units complaining they don't have enough computers at work in the Victoria Police. The bands are no different. We have a couple of music specific computers, for want of a better word, that have the music programs on them and music software required to publish sequence and compose music. We have more people with that skill and with the requirement to do that than we do have computers or time available at the depot so members have purchased their own musical equipment to do that with at home.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN690

How many other band centres has been proposed to move the band to from the current location, how often has that happened?---There has been three band centres proposed, although the third one turned itself into two, Commissioner. If you let me give you a brief history. The bands were - there was an asbestos problem discovered at the band centre and the bands were directed to leave the band centre. At the time we had an admin office set up at the VP academy and an office set up at Nunawading Police Station. They were only offices and it was only admin staff that occupied those offices. The bands worked on a venue to venue basis. As band leader I was required to sort of liaise with local councils and local schools and organise halls and venues as required for rehearsals and meetings, etcetera. The vehicles were kept some at the academy, some at Nunawading. While we were dislocated we were asked to - we were told that we would not go back to the band centre, that it was in no fit state for a unit to be working and they would find somewhere else for us. When they decided to find something else for us they opened up a project file that had been started by Inspector Pine and another inspector whose name escapes me at the moment, a couple of years earlier. The most recent option on that was an option to move to Box Hill Town Hall and occupy some space within that town hall. That option was looked at in conjunction with property services and their command there. The property services had negotiated for some space that was dislocated as in there was a bit here and a bit here and a bit here and, Commissioner, the space that they had negotiated for was considerably smaller than the band centre that we are in at the moment and we don't have enough facilities where we are currently. Despite this the City of Whitehorse took the offer of Box Hill Town Hall off the table themselves in a meeting early January 2001 I think it was. After the Victoria Police were offered a property in Scoresby which was an old house in the middle of an industrial area. We took the show band out there to set them up inside the largest room to see what it was like acoustically and how much work needed to be done. We couldn't fit the show band in that largest room to set them up for rehearsal. We were spilling out the doorways but we still did it for an acoustic viability test anyway. The Victoria Police Property Services Department were negotiating with the owners of that property and that property, we were told by property services, was cost prohibitive and they weren't going ahead with that proposal. Later in that year there was a proposal to move us to Essendon Airport and we were asked to go and look at the airport. They had a committee, a relocation committee from within the bands, Commissioner, and we were asked to go out and have a look at that property. The property at

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

Essendon Airport was considerably smaller than where we are now. Plans were nonetheless drawn up for it. The then commander, Garry Jamieson of property services asked for band input and the bands gave their input into it which was largely negative on the grounds that it was too small, that we were co-located in an area with traders that were in an operational airport which didn't seem conducive to music and there was a few occupational health and safety reasons for it. Whilst this dispute, for want of a better word, was in the negotiation stage, Commissioner, the owners of the Essendon property took that off the market. As part of that dispute the band leaders sought to seek an alternative to Essendon Airport to show the Victoria Police that there was alternatives out there. We had found a building at Burwood or - yes, Burwood it was, that was suitable in size and the then superintendent in charge of the bands was amenable to the fit-out costs of it but that was subsequently leased by the time they had resolved the Essendon issue, so we were without accommodation. Since that time the Victoria Police bands have heard that we are on Project Oscar which is the facility that they are looking to build out at Ravenhall - - -

PN691

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, whereabouts?---Out a Ravenhall.

PN692

Whereabouts is that?---That is out past Deer Park. So we looked at - we have been told that we are included in that facility. However, recently we have been told again that we are now not included in at least the first stage of that facility and no decision has been made about the second stage. So we are at least five to six years away from finding another venue and obviously expected to stay where we are at the depot in Westgarth.

PN693

MR BALDINI: In relation to the Dynon review were you ever consulted about the review by Inspector Dynon?---Inspector Dynon, Commissioner, came down to the band centre late in the review process and asked to speak to all the band leaders. He had a 15 minute conversation with myself which predominantly centred on the professional marketing image of the force. We talked about sign writing on the side of the trucks and sponsorship. We talked about web pages and stationery. Didn't discuss at the time what the band leaders role were or any other component of the review. However, in the process leading to where we are now I have had several occasions to meet or talk with - not meet in a formal sense but meet as in bump into Inspector Dynon as he was a member of the joint working party as well which was on at the same time as part of this review.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN694

Has ever spoken to you about the classification structure?---No, he has not.

PN695

Has he ever spoken to you about the roles of the assistant band leader and music director?---No, he has not. Let me just clarify that, Commissioner. Whilst he has not spoken to me about the roles of assistant band leader and musical director these have come up as discussion in the joint working parties previously which both myself and Peter Dynon have been attending.

PN696

Did Inspector Dynon in your experience view a rehearsal of the show band?---I have no recollection of Inspector Dynon viewing a rehearsal of the show band although at some stage when the show band may have been rehearsing he may have turned up at the depot unannounced and unnoticed. He often turned up for a half hour or so, Commissioner, to do whatever he was doing and then disappear.

PN697

Did he ever speak to you about what was occurring in the rehearsal?---No, he did not.

PN698

And did he ever formally ask for your permission or ask to sit in the rehearsal?---No, he didn't, Commissioner.

PN699

What about practice sessions?---No, not to my knowledge.

PN700

Ceremonial performances?---Ceremonial performances, I believe he saw us at a couple of graduations, Commissioner, performing a role there and parade I think he saw us at once which may have been Anzac Day I think from recall.

PN701

Did he ask you for any information as to what was happening?---No, he didn't.

PN702

Did he talk to you about what was happening?---I didn't know he was there, Commissioner, until after the event.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN703

What about schools, has he seen your performance in schools?---Schools, again, Commissioner, I have got no recollection of him being at school performance but he may have been at a Code One one.

PN704

Community groups?---Community groups, again to my knowledge Inspector Dynon when he did be anywhere near the bands we were generally often the last to know about it, Commissioner. As far as community groups goes I believe he was at one of the annual Melbourne Town Hall concerts but I can't say that for certain.

PN705

When you say you can't say that for certain, did he have any contact with you in that performance?---No, he did not.

PN706

So you are saying he may have been in the audience?---That is right.

PN707

I will ask one last question. You have been in the RAAF band. Does the service allowance that is paid to members of the armed forces apply automatically to band members at the RAAF?---From my recollection, Commissioner, and it was 13 years ago that I was there, the bands in the RAAF got every entitlement as did the rest of the Department of Defence.

PN708

Thank you.

PN709

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Patterson, I think we will adjourn just for one or two minutes before you - I take it you have got some questions for the Constable?

PN710

MR PATTERSON: Certainly, Commissioner.

PN711

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. We will adjourn for a short time. Constable Hudson, during the adjournment you shouldn't discuss your evidence with anyone. Do you understand that?---Yes, sir.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN712

All right. We will adjourn for a short time.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [4.02pm]

RESUMED [4.07pm]

PN713

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Patterson.

PN714

MR BALDINI: Could I just ask what time the Commission was planning on rising this afternoon?

PN715

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, 4.15.

PN716

MR BALDINI: We have a problem with the next witness who is unable to be here tomorrow and Friday and I was wondering if it would be possible to interpose his evidence and carry over the cross-examination of Constable Hudson until tomorrow?

PN717

THE COMMISSIONER: Does that mean you want to put a witness in now?

PN718

MR BALDINI: Yes, if that is - - -

PN719

THE COMMISSIONER: It seems exactly what you want to do. Well, how long do you think that witness is likely to take?

PN720

MR BALDINI: It is a much briefer - - -

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN721

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you know our hours, Mr Baldini. We took a slightly longer luncheon adjournment. But how long do you think this witness will be?

PN722

MR BALDINI: I imagine my evidence-in-chief would go between five and 10 minutes at the moment.

PN723

MR PATTERSON: Not interjecting and just trying to work out programming from here onwards, Commissioner. In the ordinary sense I would take probably approximately a half an hour, maybe a bit longer to cross-examine Constable Hudson at this moment.

PN724

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment. Constable Hudson, what are you doing?

PN725

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, it might be - - -

PN726

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment, Mr Patterson.

PN727

MR PATTERSON: My apologies.

PN728

THE COMMISSIONER: What is the problem, witness?---Sorry, Commissioner, I was just about to ask for permission to go and talk to the witness and see if he could pop in for a period tomorrow as opposed to not be available for the - - -

PN729

No, look, just - yes, it will be all right. We will hear what Mr Paterson says. Go on.

**** PATRICK HUDSON XN MR BALDINI

PN730

MR PATTERSON: Commissioner, as I have mentioned, I probably have at least half an hour of cross-examination of Constable Hudson and depending on what the next witness says, it probably would be another 10/15 minutes of cross-examination of him as well. That is certainly going to lead till well to five or past that if we were to do it all now. Excuse me one second. I don't necessarily have a problem having Constable Simpson in now to give his evidence and maybe leave the cross-examination to Constable Hudson for tomorrow or another day. But if you are indicating that usually closes soon, do we start looking at programming another day next week?

PN731

THE COMMISSIONER: We will see. But now, how long do you think you will be with your - you have had a look at the - it is always hard to know but if we spend much time we will spend more time talking about than actually doing it. But with this next witness how long do you think you will be? You have looked at his witness statement, or her witness statement?

PN732

MR PATTERSON: Apart from any additional evidence that he raises I only have one or two questions to ask from his witness statement, Commissioner.

PN733

THE COMMISSIONER: Good, all right. Thank you, Mr Patterson. Now, Constable Hudson, you are going to go out of the witness box now and you are in a state of suspended animation. You can't talk to anyone about your evidence and you will come back tomorrow. All right, thank you?---Thank you, sir.

PN734

Thank you for your evidence. So if you go back and sit down.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.10pm]

PN735

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Baldini, if you call this new person in, off we will go and we will hear that person tonight.

<SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON, AFFIRMED [4.11pm]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR BALDINI

PN736

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Baldini.

PN737

MR BALDINI: If the witness could be shown his statement. Is that a signed copy of your statement?---Yes, it is.

PN738

I have just got a few questions for you. In your statement you give evidence as to your role and as second in charge to the band leader. I wonder if you could describe to the Commission why you feel that there is - or whether you feel that there is a need for a separate band leader, music director and second in charge of the show band and if so why?---The role of band leader, assistant band leader and musical director are all necessary because of the vast amount of work that is required to run a group of the size of the show band. My role as assistant band leader is to support the band leader on a day to day basis as the duties required by him are far more than can be done by a single person in the time allotted. In the absence of the band leader I would take responsibility for the running of the show band, taking over all the roles and responsibilities that the show band leader would normally take on if he was there. In regard to the musical director's position this in itself is a vast role also. The musical director has to not only run the band rehearsals but is required to arrange most of the repertoire that the band uses which is well into the hundreds of works and this can take many, many hours. Now, for any one person to take on all three roles is absolutely impossible. By the same token, for any person to do both the musical director's role and the assistant band leader's role I think would be impossible. There is just - I find as assistant band leader that the work that I do in just assisting the band leader is hard to do that in a normal day in conjunction with my role as a musician, which is obviously the core function. So to take that on as well as musical director's role I found would be extremely difficult.

[4.15pm]

PN739

If I could just ask you about the review being conducted by Inspector Dynon. Has he ever consulted you about that review?---No, no. I have had no conversations with Inspector Dynon in regard to the review at any time.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XN MR BALDINI

PN740

Has he ever talked to you about the classifications of the bands?---To my knowledge, no.

PN741

Has he ever spoken to you about the role of the assistant band leader?---No.

PN742

Has he ever spoken to you about the role of a music director?---No.

PN743

Has he ever discussed with you the possibility of one person doing those two roles?---Sorry?

PN744

Has he ever discussed with you the possibility of the one person doing both roles?---No.

PN745

Thank you.

PN746

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Patterson. Perhaps before you ask your questions, Mr Patterson. Constable Simpson, the statement you have signed, do you say it is true and correct?---Yes.

PN747

No changes you wish to make to it?---The only change I would make would be on the final page ..... explanation 2ICs permanent role, the first paragraph could be taken out as my mobile phone has been - I no longer have that. That has been taken off me by the department. I am still a second port of call for clients to contact. This is obviously done through the police band office or through the band leader's mobile phone if they need to contact me.

PN748

Which paragraph are you referring to?---Sorry?

PN749

Is there a reference to a mobile phone you want removed?---In addition to specific occasions, it is on the top of the page, attachment B to the witness statement. It is the second last page of my statement.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XN MR BALDINI

PN750

Yes. So what should the change be, the second sentence should come out, is that what you are - - -?---?---Yes.

PN751

And with that change it is true and correct?---Yes.

PN752

Thank you. Yes, Mr Patterson.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PATTERSON [4.18pm]

PN753

MR PATTERSON: Constable Simpson, I have just got a couple of questions which shouldn't take too long. First, could you explain what you would consider to be - sorry, I will take you back a step. Could you go through what would be a typical day at a school function? If we use a school function as an example that occurs so that when you and the whole band show up to a school function could you just run through us what actually happens on that day, so what functions are occurring?---Yes. Yes, I understand the question.

PN754

Thank you?---The day would begin with members reporting at Westgarth Transport. We would then proceed to wherever the location of the school might be which could be locally within the CBD or it could be further afield, so travel time. On arrival we would liaise with the school staff or police schools involvement program officer. The band would then go to the venue. The venue would be assessed. The truck would then be unloaded by all members. The equipment would be set up for the performance. Following this would be a full sound check, making sure that all equipment is in working condition. It may also be required that we rehearse new material for that school concert. We would then change into uniforms and the concert would commence. On completion of the concert members would then change out of uniform. The band would be - or the equipment would be packed up, loaded back into the truck by all members and returned to Westgarth.

PN755

Thank you. Now, just taking that point a little bit further, there is just a couple of questions I would like to ask in some of that submission. You mentioned about liaising with school staff?---Yes.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN756

Who would perform that function? Would that be yourself?---Generally it would be the band leader.

PN757

The band leader?---Although if the band leader was involved in other tasks I would take that responsibility.

PN758

Okay, yes. Thank you. So that liaison, so when you arrive at say a function the band leader would then go and liaise with the client?---Correct.

PN759

Which I think is the terminology used in some of the statements?---Yes.

PN760

I presuming that is only a short period of time, is that correct?---It can vary, depending on if the client is available at the time. The client could be teaching, but generally it does not take a great length of time.

PN761

Okay. And so if the band leader is not there or is engaged in other activities you take on that role?---Correct.

PN762

Okay, thank you. What other activities would the band leader be engaged in at that time for instance?---Unloading the truck, setting for the performance, basically all the same duties that all members are required to do for a performance.

PN763

Okay. How long on average would it take to unload the truck and set up?---We allow an hour and a half for every performance. Yes.

PN764

And generally sort of like - well, using the same analogy that the school function, how long is generally the performances for the school functions?---The average would be 50 minutes to an hour.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN765

Fifty minutes to an hour on average. So all up you have got the transport from Westgarth. You then go to the venue?---Yes.

PN766

And that could be varied anywhere in the metropolitan area and indeed in the country?---Within the State, yes.

PN767

And you arrive, you liaise with - you or the band leader liaise with the venue or the client?---Yes.

PN768

You unpack, an hour and a half you set up?---Yes.

PN769

You play for on average 50 minutes?---Yes.

PN770

You mentioned that sound check, who performs the sound check?---That is run by the sound man, the musical director and the band leader. All members are required to play during that obviously.

PN771

Okay. So who would take control, would it be the musical director taking control of the sound check?---Yes.

PN772

Yes, okay. Then you pack up and pack up I would presume would be an hour, an hour and a half as well?---It can be shorter.

PN773

It can be shorter?---Yes.

PN774

And then you return back to the depot?---Yes.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN775

Okay, thank you. You mentioned that the band leader or yourself when you liaise with the client there is not a lot of time spent with that, there could be but there is not a lot. What occurs during that time with all the other members, all the 20 odd members while that is occurring?---The members would be preparing to unload the truck. They could be shifting the truck into wherever the hall may be. This can require a few members as you are going through school grounds you need to do it safely.

PN776

Yes, okay. Thank you for that. You have provided with your witness statement a police band current structure. Have you got that in front of you?---The last page?

PN777

Yes, that is the one I am referring to. Commissioner, have you got that?

PN778

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN779

MR PATTERSON: Now, you have indicated in your statement that that is the current structure that is out at the police band. As it stands at the moment you have got the two inspectors, you have go the band leader, that is Constable Hudson, is that correct?---Correct.

PN780

The show band 2IC, that is you at the moment?---Correct.

PN781

The music director is also Constable Doherty who is giving evidence today?---Correct.

PN782

Who is the section leaders?---The section leaders are - - -

PN783

Is there any section leaders?---Yes, there is section leaders for all sections.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN784

Can you tell me what those section leaders actually do?---Section leaders lead the sections. They make sure that all members can play their individual parts. During section rehearsals where the band would break down into smaller groups the section leaders would run those smaller rehearsals making sure that each member can play their parts.

PN785

Okay. Can I just therefore hone into onto one section and if you are not aware of what it is you are quite welcome to say so. Picking the trombone, you have got a section there involved in that?---Yes.

PN786

Is it true that the band leader show band is a trombone player?---Yes.

PN787

And so is that trombone section, is that actually four trombones including the band leader or is it five trombones?---General playing would be four.

PN788

Four, okay. So what you have, you are proposing your structure, you are saying is that you not only have four trombone players including the band leader who is actually in charge of the band, you also believe that there should be a separate section leader in charge of that section. Is that what you are saying?---There is four members used to play most of the trombone parts and for each section you would have a section leader that leads that section.

PN789

And does that occur now?---Yes.

PN790

So who would be that section leader?---For trombones it would be Constable Henry Schroder.

PN791

So there is a separate person actually in charge of that section other than the band leader as an example?---Yes.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN792

Okay. The band leader wouldn't take control of that section?---No.

PN793

Okay. So each one of these numbers at the bottom of that chart, you have go the rhythm of four, is that correct?---Yes.

PN794

Does that include either yourself or the music director?---No - sorry, excuse me.

PN795

Yes?---The musical director is included in the rhythm section.

PN796

In the rhythm section, so that is still only four, not five? If you are not aware that is fine?---I am jut checking, that is all.

PN797

Yes?---Definitely with the sax section there is four saxes plus the section leader on top of that.

PN798

So is that five altogether, so that is say five saxophone players as an example?---Five saxophone players.

PN799

Five saxophone players.

PN800

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Patterson, I think it might be easier if you are working from the chart.

PN801

MR PATTERSON: Yes, Commissioner.

PN802

THE COMMISSIONER: To make sure whether the 2IC, in this case Constable Simpson himself. But anyway, I mean go through it in your own way.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN803

MR PATTERSON: Okay, that is a fair point, Commissioner.

PN804

Constable Simpson, you are shown as the show band 2IC, what area do you actually play in as well?---Sax.

PN805

In the sax area. So is there five people in the sax including yourself?---Including myself there is five.

PN806

It is five, okay. So there is also a section leader for the saxophone player?---Correct.

PN807

So does that make it six or is it still only five?---No, that is five.

PN808

Okay. And that person is separate to yourself?---Yes.

PN809

It doesn't matter the person's name but that is okay. And that person regularly does his section leading position?---Yes.

PN810

Okay. Could you explain again to me what the section leader actually does?---The section leader is the lead player of each section. He runs the sectional rehearsals when required to make sure that all members within that section for a sectional rehearsal are able to play their parts. Quite often the section leader is also the soloist for that section.

PN811

Thank you. So the other question is, the music director, what area does the music director play?---Rhythm section.

PN812

In the rhythm section, so that is four or is that five now, you are not sure?---I am just checking, yes. I believe it is four.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN813

You believe it is four, okay. That is fine. And is there a separate section leader for that area?---The musical director assumes - - -

PN814

Assumes that. So that is actually the music director there as well, okay. Thank you. On the day of performances who is in actual charge of performance?---From a musical perspective it is the musical director.

PN815

Would you say that the music director's position is probably the most important on the day?---In performance, yes.

PN816

Thank you. You have put down in your attachment B to the witness statement, halfway down, you have put to:

PN817

The 2IC assists and mentors members in using the oracle and e-mail system.

PN818

?---Yes.

PN819

Could you explain to the Commission what oracle is and what you do with the e-mail system?---Oracle is the computer system that we use to record our time sheets. It is also used for procurement of uniform items. It is also used for putting in expenses claims. This is a very new system to the department and I have a good understanding of it and therefore assist other members in its use.

PN820

Is that a recent innovation?---It is and to my knowledge it is not force wide yet.

PN821

You are correct, it is not entirely force wide yet. And recently you have been trained in oracle and have you been asked to mentor and assist other members in the oracle?---I have continued to mentor them, yes.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN822

And the e-mail system?---And the same with the e-mail system. You have got members who have not had a lot of dealings with computers. They just need assistance from time to time in its use.

PN823

So going back to some of the original questions I was asked and I just want this clarified from you. You have given us a very short overview of what is required during the day at a performance and we have chosen one performance, I accept that. You have indicated in your statement that the band leader has a significant amount of work and during the workload of the band leader the 2IC has assumed responsibility of a number of the show band's primary school commitments. What does that mean? Could you explain to me what show band's primary school commitments?---We do a considerable amount of school concerts throughout the year. Predominantly we do these in the winter or wetter times of the year when we can't do a lot of outside performances. I would then liaise with schools that would write in and ask for the band to come out and perform. Also we get requests from schools resource officers who work in the schools from the police force on a regular basis and we go out and assist them in schools. So I liaise with them teeing up available dates, yes.

PN824

Do you become the liaise person as well when you attend the primary school?---I can.

PN825

Does the band leader attend the primary schools as well?---Yes, if he is not in meetings or has other duties.

PN826

Would you be able to give an estimate how often - or is the primary schools a big commitment of the show band?---It is a considerable commitment throughout the year.

PN827

Would say 50 per cent of your performances, 60 per cent, are you able to give us an indication? I am not going to hold you to a precise figure but if you give us an average that would be fine?---Look, could be 50 per cent.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN828

Fifty per cent. So 50 per cent of the time you have taken the responsibility of doing the primary school activities, is that what you have indicated, the responsibility of the show band's primary school commitments, so you have taken that role on?---Yes.

PN829

Which is about 50 per cent of performances. I am a little confused. So the band leader liaises with the client when you attend there. While this is occurring the rest of the band members set up and unpack and - - -?---No, I said the band would do preliminary steps towards unpacking while - - -

PN830

Okay. I accept that, yes?---While the band leader is liaising with the staff.

PN831

And I think you indicated it generally doesn't take too long?---Generally not.

PN832

Okay. And in the meantime you do the preliminary work of where you are going to locate your equipment?---Correct.

PN833

Whether it is in a classroom or outside or wherever it has got to be?---Correct.

PN834

Would that take very long?---It depends on the location within the school.

PN835

I accept that, okay. All right. But then you unpack?---Correct.

PN836

Everyone is involved in unpacking?---Yes.

PN837

Including the band leader?---Yes.

PN838

In approximately an hour and a half you allocate?---Yes.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN839

And performances, the coordination or the management and responsibility of the performance is done by the music director?---The performance side of it is by the music director, yes.

PN840

So in actual fact on the day, the way I am seeing this, on the day the band leader has a short period of time liaising with the client, then at some stage at the same time someone does a ..... or has a look around to see where to put the equipment together, is that correct so far?---It may be as simple as just finding an access gate for the truck. We can't obviously - - -

PN841

No, I understand. Yes. But it could be relatively simple or it could be relatively much more difficult?---Correct.

PN842

Then the band leader helps out with unloading with all the others and then the music director takes over with sound checks?---Yes.

PN843

With the sound engineer?---Yes.

PN844

And the band leader actually goes and plays an instrument?---Yes.

PN845

So he sets, I don't know, the back of the band, the front of the band or wherever?---Yes.

PN846

And then the band leader is a general corps musician. I will use that terminology if you like?---Well, he is playing, yes.

PN847

Well, he is playing. And the music director - I nearly said managing director. And the music director is actually in charge of performances?---Yes.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN848

And then after that is completed you all pack up, the whole of you. So out of all that the only difference between a band leader and the rest of the corps musicians is the band leader goes and speaks to the client, otherwise he is a normal corps musician?---No, I wouldn't say that.

PN849

Okay?---During the time outside of that day the band leader could be liaising with other clients.

PN850

Okay. So that is separate to performance day though, isn't it? Is that right?---No, that is on every day.

PN851

Okay. But I am talking about if you on a typical day going to a performance, okay, accept the fact that the band leader may have done something else previously, on the day of performance immediately - or from what we understand, the band leader drives the truck?---Yes.

PN852

But on the day of performance when it comes to actually going to the performance, when you arrive at the performance, the sole function of the band leader at that time is to go and speak to the client?---I would say it is one of his functions.

PN853

One of the functions, okay. Is there any other functions he is likely to do?---If his phone rings he could be liaising with clients.

PN854

If his phone rings, yes?---This is as I stated in my witness statement is I take control if the band leader is doing other duties.

PN855

Yes?---On that day he may get a phone call. It might be from the officer in charge, it could be from other clients, he may be tied up with that for the entire time that we are setting up or while we are doing a sound check. I would assume responsibility for that period.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN856

I will accept the fact that the band leader could be talking to other clients. Could be, might not be, but could be, I accept the fact. But for performances the music director is the one in charge?---Yes.

PN857

The band leader checks with clients and then the band leader goes and plays an instrument and is controlled by the music director and it would seem to me also from what you are telling me and I asked you about the ..... is also being controlled by a section leader during rehearsals?---That is a standard set up for most bands, orchestras.

PN858

I accept what you are saying. So apart from talking to clients and organising a few things on the day, he is a normal corps musician. He is controlled by the music director during performances. He is controlled by the section leader during rehearsals and yet he has too much work. Now, what I am leading to, when you look at that structure that you have identified and I must admit has been identified in the other witness statements, you have a structure where you have four rhythm players, one of which is the music director. You have a section leader which is the music director. You have the music director and then you have the show band leader, is that correct?---Correct.

PN859

So you have one person who is actually the music director in charge of four people. In the saxophone area and you are in that area I think you indicated?---Correct.

PN860

You have five saxophone players, one of which is a section leader which is not yourself?---Correct.

PN861

Then you have yourself and this person over the top and you have a band leader. So a section leader is in charge of four people?---Correct.

PN862

The next one along, you have four trombone players, one of which is a band leader?---Correct.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN863

You have a separate person who is a section leader?---Yes.

PN864

You have then yourself over the top and then you have the band leader himself?---Correct.

PN865

In the trumpet area, we will look at that one, you have three trumpet players or four?---Four in total.

PN866

Four in total, so the section leader in that structure is the extra trumpet player?---Yes.

PN867

So you have one trumpet player in charge of three other trumpet players?---Yes.

PN868

And then the music director and yourself and then the show band - sorry, then the band leader. In the vocalist area, three vocalists?---Yes

PN869

The section leader is a separate vocalist, does that make it four?---I am unsure about that.

PN870

You are not sure, okay. I mean I can clarify that later on but that is okay. I mean I will put a question mark to that and I will find that out myself. There is no section leader of the French horn I presume?---No.

PN871

Okay. Are you familiar with Code One?---Not in detail.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN872

Are you able to comment whether that structure includes four people in Code One or is it five people with the 2IC, or is it six people with - and including the band leader? Well, what about if I say to you that as it currently stands there is five people in the Code One in the band altogether, would that be correct?---I think that is correct.

[4.44pm]

PN873

Okay. So if there is four people in Code One at the base box you have got a 2IC. Who would that be? Would you know who that was at all?---I believe it would be Constable Ewing.

PN874

So there is a separate person who is 2IC so that it brings it down to three people, is that right? So one of those four people in Code One would be the 2IC, would that be correct?---I am not sure.

PN875

You are not sure, okay. And then you have got a band leader out of that so at the end of the day you have got one band leader, one 2IC and two people playing. Would that be correct, or would it be three people playing, my apologies?---I am not sure, no.

PN876

Okay, I will accept that - - -?---I don't play in Code One.

PN877

Because I am asking you in an area that you are not really familiar with?---No.

PN878

I won't go into the pipe band because I know that they are a different structure and I can do that later on. However, I wanted to clarify certainly the structure that you are putting you have got four people - you have got one person in charge of four people, or three people. You have got music director and show band 2IC in charge of all of them and then you have got a band leader over the top. All of you play music and you all come back down to the bottom row at some stage, is that correct, except for the music director, that is the section leader for the rhythm as well?---I am just having a quick look. I believe it would be - I believe so.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON XXN MR PATTERSON

PN879

Okay. The sound engineer, can I ask a question there, does the sound engineer play an instrument as well or is that person separate?---His role is as sound engineer.

PN880

So does nothing else other than sound engineer, doesn't play an instrument at all?---Not today, no.

PN881

Not today. But he used to at one stage, was it?---Correct.

PN882

Okay, thank you. Are you right for a glass of water?---I am fine, thank you.

PN883

Commissioner, that completes my cross-examination. Thank you.

PN884

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BALDINI [4.48pm]

PN885

MR BALDINI: I have just a couple of very quick questions. In this day that you have described as being the typical day of a school function, when do you do your practice, your individual practice?---On a day such as that it would be after the shift.

PN886

After the shift and where would that be done?---Either at home or at the depot.

PN887

Okay. If I could just take you back to before you actually get in the truck and drive to the school. Are you involved at all in the planning of that function?---Yes.

PN888

And what sorts of things do you do?---For a school function I would handle any correspondence with the school, any liaising by phone, e-mail. I would set up or arrange for the times, dates, etcetera.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON RXN MR BALDINI

PN889

And what else would you do?---I would then process the file, give them the dates that are available. They would be entered into the data base. The information would then be put onto the whiteboards both in the police band office, also into the central band office. The file would be submitted to the OIC for approval, then it would be filed.

PN890

Would you have duties in relation to this solely when you were on rehearsal days or would you also have duties when you were involved in other performances?---Sorry, ask that again?

PN891

Would your duties in arranging a concert solely be done on rehearsal days or would that be done on days when you have other performances?---It could be done any time that I can find time to do it.

PN892

So on the day you were at a school you could well be doing work for another school as well?---Correct.

PN893

The school performances, are they the shortest or the longest, or somewhere in between, where do they rate on the length of the job?---They could be in the middle. We do shorter performances but we definitely do longer performances in schools.

PN894

And what percentage of the jobs you do would be school jobs, roughly?---Possibly 50 per cent.

PN895

Is that the same during the year?---Predominantly higher middle part of the year.

PN896

Okay, thank you.

**** SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON RXN MR BALDINI

PN897

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Simpson. You can step down.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.51pm]

PN898

THE COMMISSIONER: We will adjourn now until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 1 JULY 2004 [4.51pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #K1 TWO BINDERS CONTAINING OUTLINE OF ARGUMENT, AUTHORITIES AND MATERIALS RELIED ON PN24
EXHIBIT #P1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS AND ATTACHMENTS PN105
PATRICK HUDSON, SWORN PN528
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR BALDINI PN529
WITNESS WITHDREW PN735
SHANE ANTHONY SIMPSON, AFFIRMED PN736
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR BALDINI PN736
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PATTERSON PN753
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BALDINI PN885
WITNESS WITHDREW PN898