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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
(Administrator Appointed)
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 7811
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS
C2004/3617
APPLICATION FOR AN ORDER TO STOP
OR PREVENT INDUSTRIAL ACTION
Application under section 127(2) of the Act
by Grocon Constructors Pty Limited for an
order to stop or prevent industrial action
at the RACV Project site
MELBOURNE
10.12 AM, TUESDAY, 13 JULY 2004
Continued from 25.5.04
PN65
MR H. SKENE: I seek leave to appear for the applicant.
PN66
MR J. MADDISON: I appear on behalf of the CFMEU. Your Honour, while I am on my feet, we don't oppose leave for Mr Skene in this matter.
PN67
MR D. MIER: I appear on behalf of the CEPU Electrical Division.
PN68
MR J. COONEY: I appear for the CEPU Plumbing Division.
PN69
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Mier and Mr Cooney, do you have any objection to Mr Skene's application for leave to appear?
PN70
MR MIER: No, your Honour.
PN71
MR COONEY: No, your Honour.
PN72
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Leave is granted, Mr Skene. I have had the chance to read the submissions that have been filed. There is also an amended application. Is that right?
PN73
MR SKENE: Yes, your Honour, an amended application that was filed on 24 May 2004. That is the relevant application for today's purposes. There are some submissions that I was going to make considering the form of the order, some amendments to the order that is annexed to that application, but we can deal with that in due course.
PN74
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Certainly. I will mark the outline of submissions of the applicant as exhibit A1. I have had the chance to read through the material. Some of it looks hauntingly familiar, Mr Skene, and the same in relation to Mr Maddison's for that matter, but unless there is anything you wanted to say at the outset, we might move straight to evidence.
PN75
MR SKENE: That is what I am proposing to do, your Honour. Thank you.
PN76
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do I take it that the unions want to cross-examine each of your three witnesses? Mr Maddison.
PN77
MR SKENE: I was just going to say one thing and perhaps Mr Maddison can just indicate in relation to both, I have a complication today that arose at four o'clock yesterday afternoon in the form of an urgent application for an injunction for the Federal Court. It is returnable at 2.15. I have prepared an affidavit in relation to that case that I have to swear at some stage this morning and I just want to foreshadow we might be interrupted by that. Now, I know that we have some time set aside tomorrow.
PN78
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I was hoping we wouldn't get to tomorrow.
PN79
MR SKENE: Yes, I gather that, your Honour, and certainly my preference is to try and finally resolve things today. I am just not sure exactly how that matter is going to evolve this morning.
PN80
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That is fine. We will play it by ear, Mr Skene. Let us know if anything eventuates. Mr Maddison, do you want to cross-examine each of them?
PN81
MR MADDISON: Yes, we do.
PN82
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you have any idea about how long that might be?
PN83
MR MADDISON: I am always a bit apprehensive about giving an indication.
PN84
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I am always apprehensive about asking. That is fine. We will deal with it and see how we go.
PN85
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN86
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Call your first witness, Mr Skene.
PN87
PN88
MR SKENE: Would you state your full name?---Ian William Skinner.
PN89
What is your occupation?---Project manager with Grocon Constructors.
PN90
Have you prepared a statement in relation to these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN91
Can you identify that document?---This is the statement I have made.
PN92
It is a document of some 28 pages and five attachments. Have you read that statement recently?---I have.
PN93
Do you have any changes?---No, I don't.
PN94
Can you confirm that it is true and correct?---Yes, I confirm that.
PN95
PN96
MR SKENE: Mr Skinner, your statement sets out a range of events and indicates that it is dated on 21 June 2004. What industrial action, if any, has there been at the RACV project site since that time?---There hasn't been any major industrial action since that time, just one meeting some week ago in relationship to a matter that happened at Eureka.
PN97
By the matter at Eureka, what are you referring to?---The issue of some device being found in the shop steward's office.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XN MR SKENE
PN98
How long was that meeting?---Approximately 20 minutes.
PN99
Now, Mr Skinner, you refer in your statement to - - -
PN100
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are you leaving that matter?
PN101
MR SKENE: No doubt it will be raised, your Honour.
PN102
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I just wonder if I could - no, I might wait until after cross-examination.
PN103
MR SKENE: You raise in your statement a range of examples where employees of subcontractors ceased performing work. What steps have you taken to ascertain whether the employers of those subcontractors have approved the relevant stoppages?---We had sent out a document to the subcontractors currently listed on our project, asking them to indicate certain dates, of whether they authorised payment and stoppages of their men.
PN104
Can you identify that document?---Yes, I can. This is a copy of documents sent to various subcontractors.
PN105
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you want to tender that document, Mr Skene?
PN106
MR SKENE: Yes, just in a moment, your Honour.
PN107
When was that document sent out by Grocon?---Late last week.
PN108
Your Honour, I seek to tender the document.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XN MR SKENE
PN109
MR MADDISON: Your Honour, we haven't seen this document before and just having a brief look at it, no idea what it is purporting to say at this stage and it is very hard to make out a number of the headings as well in the document. Now, I apprehend - - -
PN110
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I have got the same problem. I can't make out some of the headings either.
PN111
MR MADDISON: Firstly, it makes it obviously very hard to determine what it is this document is saying. It may be and I apprehend that given perhaps comments of your Honour in the previous Exhibition Street matter and matters we also raise in the CFMEU submissions about lack of evidence about the subcontractors, whether they agreed or didn't agree or what their position was in relation to the number of alleged stoppages.
PN112
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I am sure that is what it is directed to.
PN113
MR MADDISON: Yes. Now, if that is what it is, we say that it is very late in the day to be putting in what would be very new and additional material. Now, if that is what this is, we would be objecting to the material going in at this stage. If you are against us on that, what we would be doing is and once we get some clarification about what it is, we would be seeking an adjournment so we can get instructions about this and it may be that we would be contesting what is in here. Certainly we would be seeking to get instructions about all the matters contained, knowing that there is a large number of subcontractors mentioned in here.
PN114
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, in relation to some, it doesn't seem to assist the application.
PN115
MR MADDISON: Well, again I have just received it and as I have indicated, it is hard to make out what some of the headings are, but I think you can get a reasonable understanding about what it is and just having a quick look at it, given what the response is, the non-applicable - I am not quite sure and I would need to ask - - -
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XN MR SKENE
PN116
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, it seems to suggest that the incidents that were not relevant to your employees or occurred when you were not engaged on site from the document itself.
PN117
MR MADDISON: Yes, and it is hard to know what the non-applicable under the authorised may mean as well.
PN118
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Presumably it just means - anyway - - -
PN119
MR MIER: Your Honour, for our part - - -
PN120
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Just before you do, have you got the same - your position is the same, Mr Mier?
PN121
MR MIER: Exactly the same, your Honour, and I have just had a quick look and I don't notice too many ETU contractors there.
PN122
MR COONEY: Your Honour, the same position. I didn't notice any plumbing officials there, but we would support Mr Maddison.
PN123
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Skene, are these all - are any of them plumbing or CEPU Electrical Division contractors?
PN124
MR SKENE: Your Honour, I would have to take instructions to confirm that. This is a document that we received this morning in response to material - - -
PN125
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It is a much shorter list than the list of contractors you have attached to the order.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XN MR SKENE
PN126
MR SKENE: It is, and we understand that more of these documents are to follow. The reason we provide it is because we have provided what we have got to date. It is material that came to us this morning. It is material that has been prepared in response to a submission that is put by the CFMEU that we received at about 4.45 on Friday afternoon and so it has been gathered, I think, that it is appropriate that while as part of our case, obviously our witnesses can reply to assertions, if not evidence, that are made by the CFMEU.
PN127
THE VICE PRESIDENT: But you would have been aware that this was going to be an issue, because it was an issue in relation to Exhibition Street.
PN128
MR SKENE: Yes, your Honour, and some material had been gathered, further steps were taken, that is true. We were on notice of the issue.
PN129
THE VICE PRESIDENT: When you say there will be further material coming in, how do you apprehend that is going to work?
PN130
MR SKENE: It may be that it arrives following the conclusion of our case and we can't rely on this type of document in relation to those contractors.
PN131
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Anything further?
PN132
MR MADDISON: Just to pick up the point that you made, your Honour, that I think it is a bit disingenuous to say that the applicant hasn't been on notice for a lot longer time than four pm or 4.15 on Friday and we do reaffirm our objection and, your Honour, really, you would need to be asking the people who filled this out what they thought they meant about a lot of the questions.
PN133
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That is a submission you can make in relation to what weight I should attach to the document.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XN MR SKENE
PN134
MR MADDISON: Yes, but our first submission is that it shouldn't be accepted into evidence.
PN135
THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. No change in the position of the others?
PN136
MR MIER: No.
PN137
MR COONEY: No.
PN138
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I am inclined to admit the material. Once the applicant's case is concluded, if you wish to make an adjournment application, I will hear it at that point, Mr Maddison. Of course, that may have given you an opportunity to look at the document and make an assessment about whether to seek an adjournment or not at that stage. Do you want the document marked?
PN139
PN140
MR SKENE: Mr Skinner, what discussions have you had, if any, with contractors engaged by Grocon concerning the involvement of their employees in industrial action?
PN141
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Isn't that a hearsay issue?
PN142
MR SKENE: He can talk about discussions he has had. He can't give evidence as to the truth of them.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XN MR SKENE
PN143
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay, so it goes to whether I should attach any weight at all to the answer. Is that right?
PN144
MR SKENE: Well, he can give evidence as to conversations that he has had to ascertain circumstances as to whether or not the truth of the answers given to him as to the attached weight, that is a matter for your Honour.
PN145
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Yes, Mr Skinner?---Sorry, would you like to repeat that, please?
PN146
MR SKENE: Mr Skinner, what discussions have you had with subcontractors engaged by Grocon concerning the participation of their employees in industrial action the subject of this application?---I have had discussions with some of our subcontractors regarding situations where industrial action was taken and whether they - where we have indicated that we were not prepared to pay because it was unauthorised action in that they should not also be paying their employees in that case and that they should not authorise those sorts of stoppages.
PN147
No further questions.
PN148
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Maddison.
PN149
MR SKENE: Sorry, your Honour, I have one further question for Mr Skinner.
PN150
Mr Skinner, what is the current status of the completion of the project?---It is substantially behind.
PN151
What work is there to be completed?---There are structure works to be completed on the top of the building in terms of plant levels, to take plant. There is a major structure that goes on top of the building, structural steel, which then houses the roof over the top of the building and lift motor rooms to be constructed and completed.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XN MR SKENE
PN152
When is the roof of the building scheduled to be completed?---Pardon?
PN153
When is the roof of the building scheduled to be completed?---In approximately five weeks.
PN154
What key completion dates are there approaching the project?---The key completion dates are to complete the building in the terms with our major contractual obligations. One of those is there are six levels of office which are tenanted, pre-tenanted by a major legal company, of which we have to hand that over for fit-out and those six floors have progressive hand-over during the month of September.
PN155
I see, and when is the project scheduled to be completed?---There is two issues, when we think the project will be completed and when the actual contractual date is. The project has to be completed prior to Christmas.
PN156
Thank you. No further questions.
PN157
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Maddison, I regret not raising this earlier, but I should bring to your attention that I am an RACV Club member. I don't know that - - -
PN158
MR MADDISON: What does the RACV Club do, your Honour?
PN159
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry?
PN160
MR MADDISON: What does it entail, being a member of the RACV Club?
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XN MR SKENE
PN161
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I would assume this is the new club site, but I don't know what relationship there is between - or what contractual arrangement or anything of that nature between the RACV Club and Grocon or whether Grocon is building it for somebody else or what it is, but, look, it occurred to me that I should bring it to your attention.
PN162
MR MADDISON: Is there any other clubs you are member of, your Honour that you would like to - more interesting ones, perhaps?
PN163
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I am afraid not, no.
PN164
MR MADDISON: Your Honour, I don't think we would take. I appreciate your Honour bringing it to our attention.
PN165
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, no, I just regret not doing it earlier. It just didn't occur to me. Yes, cross-examination, Mr Maddison.
PN166
PN167
MR MADDISON: Mr Skinner, Mr Skene just asked you some questions in relation to the project and you gave evidence and I think it is in your witness statement and you say you are substantially behind. How far behind are you?---Are you talking in terms of our contractual completion date?
PN168
We will start with that, then, yes?---We are some 160 days behind.
PN169
And what are the contributing factors to being so far behind?---The contributing factors are industrial action, both on site and affiliated from State industrial action, wet weather.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN170
They are the only two factors?---They are the major factors.
PN171
Are there other factors as well, though, Mr Skinner?---There are other factors with some programming issues and things like that.
PN172
I have been down to the site, Mr Skinner, and I note that it is an unusual kind of design and structure. Has that caused delays?---The design of the building is no more difficult than other buildings I have built. It doesn't introduce different construction methods which we haven't undertaken before. The structure itself hasn't got large changes in structure which take a period of time or make it more difficult than normal.
PN173
And have you made any assessment about what percentage or proportion of the 160 days you attribute to industrial action?---I haven't done the sums exactly on a percentage or proportion of industrial action in particular.
PN174
So you don't know?---I don't know what it is percentage-wise. I know how many days we have lost due to industrial action.
PN175
How many days is that?---It is actually 32 days, but you can't just measure it on those days because the implications of delay have a greater impact on productivity and that time is an accumulation of hours on odd days of where men leave the work face, having a meeting or whatever, and return to the work face are not included in it, so they have a great effect on productivity. There is some 11 days which are related to industrial action off the site.
PN176
Sorry?---There is some another 11 days associated to industrial action which was not site based. It is State based.
PN177
Are you talking about what may be loosely referred to as political stoppages?---Well, not necessarily political stoppages, rallies in support of other union members and other positions which the union take against determinations by Government.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN178
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Is that in addition to the 32 days you mentioned?---Yes, it is.
PN179
And how many days was that?---Eleven.
PN180
Thank you?---And they are an accumulation. They are not actually a full 11 days. They are hours, maybe two hours here, three hours there.
PN181
Yes, I see, so you have added up those incidents and come up with - - -?---That is correct. That is the same with the site based.
PN182
MR MADDISON: Mr Skinner, in your witness statement you say that there are approximately 80 to 100 direct Grocon employees. The makeup of these 80 to 100 employees in terms of the actual individuals, has that changed from time to time?---It does, yes.
PN183
You have a practice of moving people around the various Grocon sites as needed and as required, depending upon work peaks and troughs and requirements, is that correct?---We do to a minor extent. Generally the work groups that are on a particular site have set activities and they are not shifted around. We do have some work groups which we can shift from site to site. The majority of those workers are not shifted from site to site.
PN184
Mr Skinner, you are aware of the practice at your site and the construction industry generally, that when the weather hits 32 degrees, that people are relocated out of the direct sunlight?---Exactly what do you mean by that, please?
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN185
When the temperature is 32 degrees, the practice on your site and other sites in the construction industry, the people are relocated out of the direct sunlight?---There is a general industry acceptable, I would suppose, or discussion that when the temperature - and it is not necessarily when the temperatures reaches 32 degrees, even though the union holds that position, it is when it is not suitable for those people to be working in that location and those people are, if it is in the sun, they are moved out of the sun into another location.
PN186
So could it be temperatures less than 32, depending upon other circumstances, people could be relocated and it may be temperatures above 32 that people would be relocated?---That is correct, depending on what activity they are undertaking at the time. They may be in a confined space.
PN187
But is it not fair to say, Mr Skinner, to short circuit that debate, every time the weather approaches around 32 that the general practice is you use 32 as an arbitrary point where people are relocated out of the direct sunlight?---That is a position generally held in the industry.
PN188
And that is what happens on your site as well?---Yes.
PN189
Notwithstanding that agreement, Mr Skinner, you say that there should be consultation every time it hits 32 and prior to people being relocated?---There should be, yes.
[10.37am]
PN190
And do you initiate that consultation?---In many instances on the RACV site, we haven't had an opportunity to initiate that.
PN191
Because you don't know what temperature it is, Mr Skinner?---No, because the union representatives on that site watch the temperature very, very closely and on occasions take it upon themselves to remove the workers from the work face without consultation.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN192
And you are saying you don't take regard of the temperature, Mr Skinner?---We do take regard of the temperature. We also take regard of the employees and the actual work they are undertaking and where they are. It is not just about a temperature.
PN193
But what I am trying to get at, Mr Skinner, is if you know that the temperature is going to approach 32, why don't you initiate consultation, if you say that there should be consultation every time prior to employees being relocated?---We have to assess where the people are working and what they are working on. It is up to us to decide in consultation with the safety committee whether the work that the people are undertaking is taken as inclement or could be injurious to the particular people.
PN194
But you have just given evidence, Mr Skinner, that you pick an arbitrary point of 32 degrees where people be relocated out of direct sunlight, is that correct?---Yes, that is, as you pointed out, an industry arbitrary point.
PN195
You also said, Mr Skinner, it is the position on the RACV site as well?---Yes, it is a position that we generally have an undertaking that we will do that.
PN196
But I understood your concern was that notwithstanding that agreement, that there should be consultation prior to people being relocated?---Yes, there should, because - just because the temperature reaches 32 doesn't mean to say that those people should automatically be moved from their work face. It depends where they are working and the conditions they are in.
PN197
Well, if they are working in direct sunlight I thought we were talking about?---Sometimes there are people on that site who have been working in the shade on the top level of the building and the union has demanded they are relocated under cover. Now, in consultation, that wouldn't have been our position.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN198
That is what I am trying to get at. What stops you from having a consultation? What stops you from initiating consultation when the weather is approaching 32 degrees?---We don't get that opportunity. The shop stewards on the site take it upon themselves to go and remove the men from the work face.
PN199
But only when it hits 32, is that correct?---Yes.
PN200
So what stops you from initiating consultation when the weather, for instance, is 29 degrees, Mr Skinner?---I do not sit on the telephone constantly watching the temperature. I know generally where the temperature is. My foremen on site know exactly where the temperature is heading and when it reaches 32, we would go and assess where the workers are and assess their condition.
PN201
But you don't do that prior to the temperature reaching 32?---Well, we would be up there constantly because the temperature may not reach 32. My foremen who are on the work face all the time are constantly monitoring the workers.
PN202
Have you ever, once people have been relocated under cover, instructed employees to go back into the top deck in shaded areas?---I think on a couple of occasions, we may have, when the temperature then dropped to a lower temperature or the weather conditions changed.
PN203
But not when the temperature got higher?---Are you asking have I taken workers out of the relocated area and put them back into their work face when the temperature got higher?
PN204
Yes?---No.
PN205
Have you ever sought to make reference in your witness statement to the dispute resolution procedure? Do you recall that?---Have I made reference to it?
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN206
You have made reference. Do you recall that, Mr Skinner, in your statement?---Yes, I recall that.
PN207
And you understand how the dispute resolution procedure works?---Yes, I do.
PN208
Have you sought to initiate the dispute resolution procedure about this issue?---As an issue before the disputes board? Is that what you mean?
PN209
There is a number that can go to the disputes board. You can have discussions with high level union officials. You can take the matter to the Commission. Have you sought to do any of those things in relation to this issue?---We have had discussions with union organisers who have been on the site.
PN210
And you haven't taken it any further?---No, we haven't.
PN211
You are aware that you have the right or the ability to take the matter further, don't you, Mr Skinner?---I am aware of that.
PN212
But you haven't sought to do anything about it?---I said I am aware of it.
PN213
But you haven't sought to progress the matter any further?---Yes, I said I have spoken to union organisers about the matter.
PN214
It is a simple question, Mr Skinner. There are no tricks involved. I am just asking you, you haven't thought to progress the matter further in accordance with the dispute resolution procedure?---I haven't taken that particular matter further.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN215
Mr Skinner, in relation to the wet weather, correct me if I am wrong, Grocon have a position in relation to the accrual or accumulation of four hours, that it doesn't include the actual inclement weather or rain time and the dewatering time, does it?---The accrual of the four hours, if that is what your question is, is based on the period when - speaking of rain is when it is actually raining.
PN216
That is Grocon's position, isn't it?---That is an industry position.
PN217
No, I am asking, that is Grocon's position. I am only asking you about Grocon?---It is Grocon's position and it is an accepted industry position.
PN218
We will get to that, Mr Skinner, but you understand that the union have a different view, don't they, that it does include both the actual rain dewatering time. I am not asking you whether you think that is right or not. I am just asking whether you understand that to be the union's position?---Well, I am not quite sure what the union's position is regarding that, because they take a different view each time.
PN219
Can you give an example of what you mean, Mr Skinner?---Well, there have been periods on the project where the union, the safety committee and the union representatives have agreed on the counting of wet weather being four hours of actual rain and have made no mention or regard to the sweeping or dewatering of the site is to be included in the counting of the four hours, then on other occasions they have made reference to it.
PN220
And you are aware, Mr Skinner, that this matter has been subject of at least two disputes board hearings?---Yes, I am.
PN221
And is it your understanding of the disputes board that they seem to have changed their position on the interpretation?---The disputes board?
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN222
Yes?---Can you outline what you are referring to?
PN223
Well, if I can take you to - you have it in your witness statement, a couple of decisions. The first one is attachment IS1 in which there is a decision of the disputes board, 20 May 2003, and then, Mr Skinner, if you go to IS3, attachment IS3 to your witness statement, there is a second decision of the disputes board of 6 February 2004?---Are you referring to IS1 and IS3?
PN224
Yes?---Yes, I am familiar with those decisions.
PN225
And does it appear to you that the disputes board seems to have changed their position from the first decision of May as against the second decision of February 2004?---I don't read it in that manner. I don't see that the disputes board has changed its position.
PN226
How do you read it, Mr Skinner?---The disputes board has noted here that it refers it to the consultative committee. I don't see a change of position. It seems that they have referred it to another committee.
PN227
If we go to 20 May - - -
PN228
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I hesitate to interrupt you, Mr Maddison, but does it matter what Mr Skinner thinks on this issue, whether there has been a change in position or not? Isn't that something you can make submissions about?
PN229
MR MADDISON: I am just trying to get an understanding of Mr Skinner's understanding of the dispute, but I won't take it much further, your Honour.
PN230
The first decision of 20 May, it appears that the disputes board make a determination that the dewatering doesn't count towards the four hours. Is that your impression, understanding?---That is my reading of - - -
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN231
And the second one of 6 February 2004, they don't make that determination, do they?---No. As I said before, they refer it to the consultative committee.
PN232
Just before we leave that issue, again, Mr Skinner, there seems to be a difference of view of the parties in relation to the working of the wet weather, inclement weather provision on your site.
PN233
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Skinner is not actually answering the question for you. You are the one giving evidence?---Can you repeat that, please? I was distracted.
PN234
MR MADDISON: I just thought, Mr Skinner, that in relation to the wet weather, inclement weather provision, there is a dispute or the parties have different views about the workings of that provision. Is that fair to say?---There is not agreement about it.
PN235
And again, Mr Skinner, you haven't sought to progress that matter pursuant to the dispute resolution procedure, have you?---We don't see the necessity to do that. We are adjudicating on the wet weather procedure in accordance with the VBIA and the award conditions. To me, it doesn't need to be taken any further. It is quite clear.
[10.50am]
PN236
If I can just briefly refer you to paragraphs 52 through to 63 of your statement. It is a dispute you refer to in relation to inclement weather and overtime. Do you recall that evidence in your witness statement?---Yes, I do.
PN237
And it would be a fair summary of the matter, that there was a dispute and then there was an agreement?---Would you like to expand upon that?
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN238
Well, you refer to a dispute about what should be the proper entitlement and payment for periods of inclement weather on a Saturday specifically. There was discussion with the union officials, various parties, that resulted in the written document that sets out how it would work in the future. Is that a fair summary of it, Mr Skinner?---Because there was a differing of opinion on wet weather entitlements or accounting of time when it is overtime, the VBIA and the award are silent in that matter, further discussions were held to clarify this so that we didn't have any further disputes arising from that interpretation and an agreement was reached.
PN239
In paragraph 69 of your written statement, Mr Skinner, you refer to relocating the first aid officer and his equipment due to I think the first aid office perhaps flooded. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN240
Are you aware of a code of practice called first aid in the workplace, Mr Skinner?---Yes, I am.
PN241
I will provide you with an extract of that document that you say you are aware of and, Mr Skinner, you wanted to relocate the first aid officer and the equipment into the site foreman's office?---Correct.
PN242
Can I take you to the front page there, which is firstly the code of practice, first aid in the workplace. If you go over to the second page, Mr Skinner, you will see 9.2 or paragraph 9 sets out the first aid rooms, 9.2 sets out the room requirements, it sets out a number of dot points. If I can take you to the sentence just above 9.3, do you see where it says:
PN243
The first aid room as provided should not be used for other purposes.
PN244
?---Yes, I can see that.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN245
Would it not, Mr Skinner, be a breach of that code of practice putting the first aid officer and equipment in with the foreman, in the foreman's office?---The first aid officer wasn't relocated to the foreman's office.
PN246
Sorry?---The first aid officer was not relocated to the foreman's office and there is no breach.
PN247
He wasn't relocated?---No.
PN248
So paragraph 69 of your statement is incorrect?---No, it is correct. I suggested that he be relocated. I suggested it, but it didn't actually happen.
PN249
So it is a good thing it didn't happen, then, Mr Skinner, is that right?---That is your statement.
PN250
I am asking you?---You are asking me what? That it is a good thing it didn't happen? Why?
PN251
Do you didn't breach the code of practice, Mr Skinner?---Well, it didn't happen. It was only a suggestion.
PN252
In your view, if it did happen, would it be a breach of the code of practice, Mr Skinner?---Well, in the event that it did happen, I would answer that then, but it didn't happen.
PN253
Do you want to tender this extract from the case?
PN254
MR MADDISON: Yes, I do, your Honour.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN255
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It is a code of practice issued by what, the Victorian Occupational Health and Safety Authority? Is that right?
PN256
PN257
MR MADDISON: Thank you, your Honour.
PN258
Mr Skinner, you go on in paragraph 71 of your witness statement to talk about 30 January 2004 where gradually over the course of that morning areas were opened up for normal work as it was dewatered. Do you see that?---At paragraph 71 you are referring to?
PN259
Yes?---Yes.
PN260
And employees of both Grocon and subcontractors went out and did productive work once those areas were opened up, is that correct?---Yes, when the areas were cleared by the safety committee, they did.
PN261
And that is the normal way that it happens, if the area gets dewatered, the site safety committee has to determine whether or not it is safe to recommence work in those areas?---That is correct, that is the procedure.
PN262
And once they were opened up, work did continue in those areas, is that right?---In some of the areas, yes.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN263
What do you mean, in some of the areas?---Well, there was a particular area where it was opened up, the employees were allowed to return to work in their area and then they were taken from that area again.
PN264
You are talking about the plasterers?---That is correct.
PN265
But all other employees other than plasterers, when areas were opened up, they went back and worked in those areas for the rest of the day, is that correct?---I think there were other employees that didn't actually get to their work area that left the site.
PN266
Because their areas weren't opened up within four hours?---That is my understanding.
PN267
But other employees whose areas were opened up within the four hours went into those areas and worked for the remainder of the day?---Yes.
PN268
Other than the plaster employees?---No, I said there were other trades that I was aware of that weren't able to work in their work area.
PN269
Because their work areas weren't opened up within four hours?---Not necessarily within the four hours, that their work area was still inclement at the time they were sent home. The work area was still wet and we were in the process of working through the building, clearing the areas and a preference was put, an order was put into the building of starting from the top of the building and working their way down. Some employees left the site before their areas were opened up.
PN270
Because their view was that it was inclement for four hours and they have an entitlement to go home?---That wasn't supported by us. We didn't agree to that.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN271
Can I take you to - you don't need agreement prior to employees leaving the site due to inclement weather, though, do you, Mr Skinner?---Can you repeat that, please?
PN272
Is it your understanding of the VBIA that you don't need agreement prior to employees leaving the site due to inclement weather, but you need consultation only?---There should be consultation. If the employees leave the site without agreement, then they are not entitled to be paid.
PN273
Can I take you to paragraph 22 of your statement, Mr Skinner? In paragraph 22 where you refer to clause 26.1 of the VBIA which refers to consultation taking place between union and management prior to employees leaving the site?---Correct.
PN274
Do you say that it requires agreement as well?---It requires agreement if that person wishes to be paid for that time.
PN275
My question wasn't about people getting paid, Mr Skinner. My question was about people leaving the site. Do you need agreement to leave the site?---No, you should have consultation about leaving the site.
PN276
Sorry?---There should be consultation before any employee leaves the site.
PN277
That wasn't my question, Mr Skinner. My question was do you believe that you need agreement prior to employees leaving the site?---I would have to read the VBIA and be further briefed on that matter.
PN278
Can I provide you with the relevant clause, Mr Skinner?---My reading of it is it is by agreement, that the parties consult prior to employees leaving the site.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN279
So there needs to be agreement to consult. Is that what you say, Mr Skinner?---That is what the clause says.
PN280
Which clause are you referring to?---26.1.4.
PN281
It is agreed by the parties that prior to any employee leaving the site during inclement weather, consultation shall take place between union representatives and site management.
PN282
?---Yes.
PN283
And you say, Mr Skinner, that means there needs to be an agreement prior to employees leaving the site?---You can turn the words however you like.
PN284
No, no, I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say?---I am just relating what it says in the rule 26.1.4. It says it is agreed and so you must have agreement by the parties to consult prior to leaving the site.
PN285
If as a result of that consultation there is no actual agreement that employees can or should leave the site, then they can still leave the site, can't they, provided you have had consultation?---That clause says they can.
PN286
Mr Skinner, it would be fair to say that everybody has a responsibility in regards to occupational health and safety in the workplace?---Yes.
PN287
That is any individual on a site sees somebody, something unsafe, they should say something about it, is that correct?---If they see an unsafe area or work activity, they should report that. It is their prerogative to report it if they wish to.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN288
So even though Mr Sposito is no longer on the site safety committee, he does have a role in respect of occupational health and safety on the site, doesn't he?---Every employee on the site has a role in occupational health and safety.
PN289
Mr Skinner, it is quite common for either yourself or Mr Gelsumini to send off requests to work additional hours outside of the 56 hours standard to the CFMEU?---We have done that, yes. I would say it was quite common, but we have done it.
PN290
And normally you get a response from the union?---On most occasions I did not receive a response. There are other occasions where I did receive a response, some verbal, some written.
PN291
And other than sending off a letter to the CFMEU, you also discussed it with your on site delegates?---Yes, my foreman, construction manager, discusses it with them, advises them of the type of activities we propose to undertake. They also get a copy of our request to the union's letter for works outside normal working hours.
PN292
And sometimes you reach an agreement at that level and the work proceeds in accordance with the request, is that correct?---In most cases, the shop steward takes it to his union official.
PN293
And he will come back verbally and say yes or no?---That is correct.
[11.06am]
PN294
And when the steward or the union says no, you don't take the matter any further?---Generally the answer comes late on the Friday before we wish to do the work over the following weekend, leaving us no time to take the matter further.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN295
And you don't seek to do anything prior to the Friday, to try to find out what is happening, send another request?---Yes, we do ask of the shop stewards what is the answer in relation to our request and they say they have not had a reply from the union. I think you will recall it was in a period where the request was denied from a letter from yourself and I wrote back requesting further details.
PN296
On which occasion are you referring to, Mr Skinner?---I don't have the documentation in front of me. You wrote back to me and said we should be having regard for our employees' leisure time.
PN297
Is that a reasonable thing to say, Mr Skinner?---That was a reasonable thing to say, only that given that the week prior to that, the employees were out on strike for four and a half days.
PN298
Do you know when you are referring to?---Pardon?
PN299
Do you know when you are referring to?---As I said, I don't have the documents in hand. It was approximately two months ago, something in the order of that.
PN300
And you never sought - you understand that the agreement says if refusal is unreasonable, that the matter can be progressed through the dispute resolution procedure?---As I said before, in my cases the reply comes very late on a Friday prior to the weekend, leaving us no time to take that matter further, to achieve that work on that weekend.
PN301
You haven't made a complaint about what you say is the tardiness in the response, Mr Skinner?---That has been conveyed through our industrial officer, Mr John van Camp about response from the union.
PN302
Sorry?---I have conveyed that issue to my industrial relations officer, Mr John van Camp, to take it up in discussions with the union.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN303
And do you know if he has?---It is my understanding it has been raised with the union.
PN304
Do you know the outcome of those discussions?---Not without conferring with Mr van Camp.
PN305
If I could refer you to paragraph 140 of your witness statement, Mr Skinner. Do you see paragraph 140 refers to an employee performing concrete drilling work?---Correct.
PN306
Is it your understanding that that employee was drilling concrete with a concrete driller above his head and by himself?---My assessment of the area at the time the incident happened, he wasn't drilling work above his head. It was at about waist to chest height.
PN307
And he was working on a scissor lift or some kind of elevated platform?---That is correct.
PN308
By himself?---Yes, he was.
PN309
Can I provide you with minutes of a site safety meeting? It is minutes of a site safety meeting of 11 July 2003. Can I take you to item 54.12:
PN310
All activity must be carried out in a team of at least two people.
PN311
Do you see that, Mr Skinner?---I can see that, yes.
PN312
Are you aware of that safety requirement on your site?---I read the minutes, so I am aware of that.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN313
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you want to tender that?
PN314
PN315
MR MADDISON: Thank you, your Honour.
PN316
The concrete driller shouldn't have been working by himself, should he, Mr Skinner?---Are you referring to that item in the safety minutes as to why he shouldn't be working by himself? Is that what you are contending?
PN317
I refer to that safety minutes where it says that people should work at least with a team of two?---I would have to speak to my safety officer who wrote the minutes to get clarity on what item 54.12 relates to. Does it relate to all activities or does it relate to specific activities?
PN318
So you are not sure what the requirement is on your site about people working in teams of two?---As I just said, I would refer to my safety officer to clarify what that is in relationship to.
PN319
So you don't know if there is some circumstances where people can work by themselves and others where they can't?---I just said I would have to refer to my safety officer to understand the intention and the manner in which that note was made.
PN320
I am happy for you to do that, Mr Skinner, but it wasn't my question. My question was are you aware of what circumstances people can work individually on your site?---There are circumstances where people can work individually on the site, yes.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN321
And what are those circumstances?---A gentleman sweeping the floor generally works - he doesn't have somebody standing beside him when he sweeps the floor.
PN322
Any other circumstances that you are aware of?---Given time, I could think through the work activities.
PN323
Certainly. We have got all day and all day tomorrow, Mr Skinner. Think away.
PN324
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Speak for yourself, Mr Maddison.
PN325
MR MADDISON: Yes, your Honour. The witness said he needs time to think about it. I am happy to give him time. I am not trying to hurry him up with his answers.
PN326
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Isn't the health and safety officer also giving evidence?
PN327
MR MADDISON: Mr Skinner, you are on the site safety committee, aren't you?---Yes, I am.
PN328
I think he is also an appropriate person to ask the question to. If he can't assist us any further, perhaps he can indicate that, but at this stage he is saying he wants more time to think about it.
PN329
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sure?---There are other activities, traffic officer, the traffic management person generally works - the forklift driver works without another person beside him, an Alimak driver drives the Alimak as one person. That is why I said I would need to discuss - to refer to my safety officer the actual meaning of what that note in the minutes repeats, sir.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN330
MR MADDISON: Are you not sure whether a person drilling on an elevated work platform should be working by himself or in a team of two?---I would have to ask - you are basing your direction on a minute in a safety meeting. I have said to you I need to understand the context in which that note in the safety minutes was made.
PN331
I am not asking you about the safety minute now, Mr Skinner?---Well, you are referring to the safety minute, so you are drawing my attention to that and the requirement under that safety minute.
PN332
THE VICE PRESIDENT: He is asking you a separate question, Mr Skinner. Just listen to the question?---All right, sorry.
PN333
MR MADDISON: I am asking you whether or not you are aware if a person drilling on an elevated work platform can work individually or should be working in a team of two?---I am not aware.
PN334
Mr Skinner, Mr John Mazzone no longer works on the RACV project, does he?---He resigned.
PN335
He doesn't work for Grocon at all now, does he?---No, he doesn't.
PN336
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I am sorry, who was that?
PN337
MR MADDISON: Mr John Mazzone. Thank you, Mr Skinner. No further questions, your Honour.
PN338
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Mier.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MADDISON
PN339
PN340
MR MIER: Mr Skinner, can you turn to page 7 of your statement which is clause 20, the CEPU Electrical Agreement which would be I suggest straight out of the pattern agreement. Are you familiar with this?---Is that clause 7?
PN341
Page 7 of your statement?---Sorry, now can you repeat the question?
PN342
Are you familiar with this? I suppose you have written it. Did you write this?---Did I write this personally? Is that what you are asking me?
PN343
Yes?---No, I did not.
PN344
Are you familiar with it?---I am familiar with it.
PN345
So would you think that that came directly out of the ETU agreement, pattern agreement that applies to Grocon, Nielsen, etcetera, or is that what you are alluding, that that is what you meant?
PN346
MR SKENE: I don't know that the witness can answer that question. I don't think that question has been properly put.
PN347
MR MIER: What I am trying to get at, Commissioner, is if he has put the stuff in, he should put stuff in that is correct, not a precis or not amended. I happen to have the ridgy-didge one here, not something that has just been dreamed up.
PN348
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, the document you just got, you say that is an extract from your I think now time expired but still operating agreement with Grocon. Is that right?
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MIER
PN349
MR MIER: No, we have a fully certified agreement.
PN350
MR COONEY: That is the plumbers.
PN351
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It is the plumbers that are out of time?
PN352
MR MIER: We have a certified agreement with Grollo and this is the dispute settling procedure out of that agreement.
PN353
THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Well, you can put that to the witness. What is the name of the agreement, Mr Mier?
PN354
MR MIER: It would be the Grocon ETU EBA 2003 to 2005, expires on October '05.
PN355
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think I certified it, from memory.
PN356
MR MIER: I am sure you did. You did most of them, Commissioner.
PN357
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN358
MR MIER: So I am just trying to understand, Mr Skinner, why you put this in when it is not out of the ETU Agreement. It is a precis of it. It has got things missing. I am just trying to understand why you have done that?---It is a general summary of the disputes resolution procedure contained within that more detailed document.
PN359
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I am sorry. So is it intended to be a summary of the document that Mr Mier has given to you?---Correct.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MIER
PN360
MR MIER: So there would have been - why didn't you write that it is a summary or this is the way you think it should be applied, instead of the way you have put it in your submission, it would appear that that is directly out of the agreement?---Well, in my statement here, it relates to clause 12.1. If you wish to see further particular details, you then refer to 12.1. If you wish to see further particular details refer to 1.21.
PN361
What I am getting at, Commissioner, is - - -
PN362
THE VICE PRESIDENT: If your concern is that the summary is not accurate you can put that to the witness. But ultimately, this is -no disrespect intended to the witness, but I won't be relying on the witness's summary of what the agreement says. The agreements speak for themselves in relation to these matters.
PN363
MR MIER: Thank you, your Honour.
[11.21am]
PN364
Another thing, the meeting about the bug that was at Eureka that was held last week, was it agreed by Grocon to pay for that meeting that was on your site?---We didn't agree to the meeting being held and following the meeting I was approached by members of the CFMEU. A question was put to me, would we be paying the men for that meeting time and I considered on my judgment at the time that it was of short duration and I agreed that it would be paid.
PN365
So the meeting was paid so it was authorised?---The meeting wasn't authorised. I didn't authorise the meeting to be held. The only question that was put to me was would the men have their pay deducted due to that meeting. There was no agreement prior to the meeting by myself or Grocon that the meeting should be held. I was notified but I did not agree to it.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MIER
PN366
It has been paid? It was a paid meeting?---The agreement with those people present was that the men would be paid. That was my ruling at the time.
PN367
Mr Skinner, in your statement there is not too much about the ETU.
PN368
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are you complaining about that, Mr Mier?
PN369
MR MIER: No, I am wondering why I am actually here, your Honour. There is very little about the ETU. I think our steward, Ms Garbett is there, mentioned a couple of times but only in passing. Is this because we have played no part in the process or what is the go, mate?---The ETU shop steward referred to, Ms Garbett, was present at all the meetings that were held and as in my statement she is recorded as being present and she has been party to those discussions.
PN370
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Who is your shop steward on site?
PN371
MR MIER: Vanessa Garbett.
PN372
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Garbett, thank you.
PN373
MR MIER: G-a-r-b-e-t-t.
PN374
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thanks.
PN375
MR MIER: I have no further questions.
PN376
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Anything from you, Mr Cooney?
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR MIER
PN377
PN378
MR COONEY: Mr Skinner, could I just take you to page 17 of your statement and paragraph 77 there. You referred to a meeting occurring at 1.30 which was attended by the plumbing division organiser, Mr Kevin Fitzgerald and Mr Torcasio?---Correct.
PN379
Then you refer in paragraph 80 to asking Mr Fitzgerald what the CEPUs role was in this matter. Could I just ask you, the fact that you asked Mr Fitzgerald that question, that would seem to indicate that he wasn't the most vocal person in the meeting at 1.30 that occurred on that day, that you had to seek clarification for his role?---I agree with what you said, he wasn't the most vocal person there.
PN380
And you then go on to state, drawing on your memory I presume, that Mr Fitzgerald replied:
PN381
We are standing with the CFMEU on this issue. We are observing what is happening and want to hear what is being discussed between Grocon and the CFMEU.
PN382
Would it be fair to characterise that statement that the CEPU Plumbing Division had taken an onlooker role at that stage, from that statement that you recalled Mr Fitzgerald saying?---You are asking me for my interpretation?
PN383
Yes?---My interpretation at the time, I wasn't clear because Mr Fitzgerald didn't have a great deal of input into the meeting where the CEPU stood in the matter. I just wished to clarify their involvement. He clarified that was their involvement and he was with following the CFMEU and was also monitoring the discussions held.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR COONEY
PN384
And further on at paragraph 82 you refer to a mass meeting that was held on Tuesday, 3 February and you are relying on a statement from a Grocon employee so you have no direct knowledge of that particular meeting?---I have knowledge of the meeting but I wasn't present at the meeting. I am not allowed to be present at those particular meetings so, yes, I do rely on another party to tell me what was conducting the meeting.
PN385
And that incident was ultimately referred to the VBIDB?---That whole incident was, yes.
PN386
Could I then take you to page 19 of your statement and paragraph 90 and paragraph 91 and you refer to a meeting on 20 May, now with Mr Glen Menzies, plumbing division organiser. In relation to that incident, that matter was also referred to the Victorian Building Industry Disputes Board, was it not?---It was, yes.
PN387
And in a decision that they handed down on 31 May the disputes board awarded pay for that particular incident to the employees. I have a copy of the decision here, it is attached to the statement of Mr Gelsumini?---Could you refer me to that one, please?
PN388
I mean if you haven't got with your own knowledge?---Yes, can you refer to which attachment it is?
PN389
It is attachment GPG2?---If I could just clarify your question again. You are asking me was paid made in relationship to the matter?
PN390
Yes, correct?---The VBIA awarded part payment to the unions claims which was payment for a period of time on the Thursday and I think payment was also given for a meeting time for one hour. There were other days that weren't awarded.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER XXN MR COONEY
PN391
Your Honour, could I just read onto transcript that part of the decision from the VBIDB that relates to 20 May?
PN392
MR SKENE: I am sure the document speaks for itself. It is a matter for submissions.
PN393
MR COONEY: Well, we will rely upon that. We rely upon the document.
PN394
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN395
MR COONEY: That is it, your Honour. No further questions.
PN396
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any re-examination?
PN397
PN398
MR SKENE: You were asked some questions by Mr Mier about the recent stoppage concerning the Eureka issue. I think your evidence was that you decided with the people that were present that there would be payment at the time. What happened after that?---Subsequent to that meeting I reported back to our industrial relations officer, Mr John Van Camp and also the senior people in Grocon and they advised me that my decision to not deduct payment from the employees was not correct.
PN399
And what payments if any were made in respect of that meeting as far as you are aware?---I am aware that the payment was made and then the subsequent adjustment made to the employees.
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER RXN MR SKENE
PN400
Why did you decide to authorise the deduction at the time?
PN401
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Authorise what deduction?
PN402
MR SKENE: Sorry. When you met with the people immediately after the meeting?---Yes.
PN403
You talked about your decision was then not to deduct payment?---Correct.
PN404
Why did you make that decision?---Because given the industrial nature on the site and the fact that the meeting only went for a very short period of time I didn't see what point would be gained by deducting payment.
PN405
No further questions, your Honour.
PN406
MR MADDISON: One matter arises, your Honour.
PN407
THE VICE PRESIDENT: How?
PN408
MR MADDISON: I just wanted to find out whether or not Mr Skinner had informed the unions that he had changed his decision. It seems an agreement was reached.
PN409
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You can cross in relation to it.
PN410
MR MADDISON: Sorry?
**** IAN WILLIAM SKINNER RXN MR SKENE
PN411
PN412
MR MADDISON: Mr Skinner, you have just given evidence that a deduction would be made now to the employees. Have you spoken to any of the shop stewards or the union officials who you made the agreement to make payment?---I haven't personally spoken to them.
PN413
No further questions.
PN414
PN415
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Your next witness, Mr Skene.
PN416
PN417
MR SKENE: Would you please state your name and occupation?---Gregorio Gelsumini, I am a construction manager.
PN418
Have you made a statement in relation to these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN419
You have been handed a document of 17 pages and two attachments. Can you identify that document?---Yes, I can.
PN420
What is it?---It is the section 127 statement of my - - -
PN421
And do you have any changes that you wish to make to that document?---Yes, I do.
PN422
If I could just take you to paragraph 3, the third line there is a reference being employed for a period of four years. What should that say?---Fourteen years.
PN423
Is that paragraph otherwise correct?---That is correct.
PN424
And if I could take you to paragraph 45 and 46, in the third and fourth line there are two references to a loading bay?---Yes.
PN425
What should that say?---That should say permit zone.
PN426
And in paragraph 46 there are also two references to loading bay, one in the first line of that paragraph and one in the last line. What should that say?---Permit zone.
PN427
In paragraph 47, the first word on the third line says sheet. What should say that?---It should say screen.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XN MR SKENE
PN428
And are those paragraphs otherwise correct?---Yes.
PN429
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I am sorry, what para was that?
PN430
MR SKENE: That is 47, your Honour, the first word on the third line, the word sheet.
PN431
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Should read what?
PN432
MR SKENE: Mr Gelsumini, what should - - -?---Screen.
PN433
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Screen?---Yes.
PN434
MR SKENE: And paragraph 53, Mr Gelsumini, the fourth line refers to a new section of the building can be inserted. What should that say?---Crane. Crane section, a new section of crane.
PN435
So replace the word building with the word crane?---Yes.
PN436
Okay. Apart from those changes is that statement true and correct?---That is correct, yes.
PN437
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XN MR SKENE
PN438
MR SKENE: Just a couple of quick questions, Mr Gelsumini. If I could take you to paragraph 12 of your statement, you are referring to an incident that took place on 11 February this year and a conversation that occurred between you and Mr Sposito. Mr Sposito says you to in your statement:
PN439
You are not pouring concrete. I am going to see the concreters.
PN440
Now, what was your concern about that incident?---That I didn't know that I had to tell him.
PN441
And what control did you think you had over whether those contractors could perform work?---Well, the area was deemed open and I believe that they should have proceeded with their task.
PN442
Now, just in paragraph 13 of your statement, you say that Mr Sposito made a comment to you to the effect that:
PN443
I made a mistake last year. I have been told that this year we can't work in the shade.
PN444
What was your understanding of the practice on the site prior to that conversation?---Well, previously we had the same situation where it hit 32 degrees and we were allowed to work out of direct sunlight. So I thought that would be the same this occasion but it obviously wasn't.
PN445
If I could take you to paragraph 26 of your statement, you talk about an incident that occurred on 16 April in relation to an employee receiving rope burns and you say:
PN446
Instead of a tool box meeting the CFMEU organised a mass meeting.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XN MR SKENE
PN447
Why did you think that a tool box meeting was the appropriate response?---Because on previous occasions they usually have a tool box meeting with the people concerned, who it affects, which group of people that it affects. That is how they deal with it previously.
PN448
Now, Mr Gelsumini, in paragraph 45 of your statement you have just made some changes and replaced the words loading zone with the word permit zone. What are the arrangements for parking in that area of the RACV site?---Well, this particular person was issued with a parking permit and he was parked in the permit zone further down the street, which I didn't see a problem as a safety issue.
PN449
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, in paragraph 45 of your statement, the last sentence there?---Yes, your Honour.
PN450
"The crane has nothing to do with the", should that be permit zone as well?---Yes, permit zone. Yes, your Honour.
PN451
MR SKENE: I am just going to pass you a document, Mr Gelsumini. It is a document entitled Abbotts Industrial Army They Shall Not Pass. Have you seen that document before?---Yes, I have.
PN452
Where have you seen that?---On and around site.
PN453
When did you see it?---Around the time that this was taking place.
PN454
Sorry, what was taking place?---That this action was taking place, the support of Martin Kingham.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XN MR SKENE
PN455
PN456
MR SKENE: No further questions. Thank you, your Honour.
PN457
PN458
MR MADDISON: Mr Gelsumini, would you say you have an extraordinarily good memory?---Not really.
PN459
Good memory?---Not bad.
PN460
Are you able to recall conversations in great detail over half a year ago?---No, not really.
PN461
If I can refer you to paragraph 11 of your witness statement?---Yes.
PN462
You see there you refer to a conversation between Mr Mazzone and Mr Green and yourself?---Correct.
PN463
It goes over the next page. Did you record this conversation, Mr Gelsumini?---Yes.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN464
You did?---Sorry?
PN465
You recorded this conversation?---Yes, I wrote this down.
PN466
No, did you record it like a listening device?---No.
PN467
THE VICE PRESIDENT: At the time do you mean?
PN468
MR MADDISON: At the time?---No.
PN469
Given what you have just told us about your memory this is not very accurate, is it, Mr Gelsumini?---What do you mean by that?
PN470
Well, you have just told that you don't have a great ability to recall in detail conversations of over six months ago and in your statement here you go to some detail the conversation that took place around eight months ago?---That is correct. I write in my diary every day. That is when I record things.
PN471
So this is taken from diary notes?---Yes.
PN472
And you would be able to provide us with a copy of that relevant part of your diary?---I should if I could find it, yes.
PN473
What do you mean if you could find it?---Well, I have shifted house recently and it was with my stuff that I shifted house with.
PN474
When did you shift house?---When did I shift house?
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN475
Yes?---About two months.
PN476
Mr Gelsumini, this statement - - -?---Two and a half. It was - no, hold on. Yes, it was about a month ago. Yes.
PN477
THE VICE PRESIDENT: When, do you know?---A month ago.
PN478
MR MADDISON: The statement is less than month old, Mr Gelsumini?---Yes.
PN479
So you must have had it within the last month, your diary notes?---Yes, I probably did.
PN480
So you should be able to provide it to us then?---I should, yes.
PN481
And you will?
PN482
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Just to make it clear. You are asking for a copy of your diary notes for 20 November 2003?
PN483
MR MADDISON: Diary notes, your Honour, yes.
PN484
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You can provide them through Mr Skene?---Yes.
PN485
Okay.
PN486
MR MADDISON: Thank you. Now, Mr Gelsumini, when there is a concrete pour on there will be a number of workers from different trades doing a variety of tasks in the place where the concrete pour has taken place, is that correct?---Sorry, could you repeat the question?
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN487
Sure. When the concrete pour is taking place you have a considerable number of employees moving about, undertaking a variety of tasks to ensure that the concrete pour is undertaken in accordance with Grocon's requirements?---Yes.
PN488
And prior to a pour taking place Grocon would ensure that not just to the specific area where the concrete is going to be poured but the areas around it are safe and free from any hazards so that the workers who are undertaking the concrete pour can go about their tasks without any interruption or impediments or any safety problems?---Yes.
PN489
And one of the things that Grocon would ensure to do would be to make sure that the area where a concrete pour was taking place was cleared of any excess water that shouldn't be there, would they not?---Yes.
PN490
So on 20 November when Mr Sposito said that the area level 4 which concrete was about to be poured should be de-watered that was a fair request, wasn't it?---No.
PN491
Why not?---Because I didn't see it as a fair request.
PN492
You have just told the Commission that area where concrete was going to be poured that not just the area where the concrete was going to be poured but the surrounding areas should be clear of excess water?---They were.
PN493
Well, it says in your statement that there were some puddles around that level, Mr Gelsumini?---Yes.
PN494
Shouldn't they be cleared then?---Not in the area where we were going to pour the concrete.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN495
But it was in the area around where concrete was going to be poured and employees and concreters would be moving around?---No.
PN496
No employees were going to be working, walking around or in that area?---No.
PN497
How can you say that with such assurance?---Because I can recall the day.
PN498
Sorry?---I can recall that day.
PN499
From your diary notes?---From this statement.
PN500
Which was made from your diary notes?---I believe so. I can't recall.
PN501
So do you think that what you have there in paragraph 10 will be reflected in the diary notes?---That might be.
PN502
You say at the end of paragraph 11 that you were feeling particularly intimidated by Mr Mazzone as a result of that conversation that you refer to. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN503
But you weren't so intimidated that it didn't stop you from going with Mr Mazzone to inspect the core?---I was trying to calm things down.
PN504
But you didn't feel intimidated to the extent that you had to walk away to get out of the immediate environment, did you?---No.
PN505
What happened when you went inspect the core for water?---We went there and we opened up the area.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN506
And you did that with agreement and a constructive manner with Mr Mazzone?---Yes.
PN507
Mr Gelsumini, you indicated in your statement you have worked in constructions as a carpenter for a long period of time?---Yes.
PN508
You would be aware then that the industry practice when the temperature hits 32 degrees that people are relocated out of direct sunlight?---Yes.
PN509
And that is a pretty standard happening in the construction industry, is it not?---It is a gentleman's agreement, yes.
PN510
And in the normal course of events, Mr Gelsumini, the weather will hit 32 and people get relocated without any complaint or concern from yourself?---Sorry, what was the question again?
PN511
When the weather reaches 32 degrees employees working in direct sunlight are relocated without any concern or comment, input from yourself?---Yes, that is correct.
PN512
It is fair to say, Mr Gelsumini, that everyone understands the gentleman's agreement that you refer to and go about their business in accordance with that agreement?---No, I don't agree with that.
PN513
Why?---Because it should be a consultation agreement.
PN514
Sorry?---It should be consultation.
PN515
About what?---About putting the men out of direct sunlight when it hits 32 and it doesn't always happen like that.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN516
What should the consultation be about?---Discussing where to relocate the men and has it reached 32 degrees yet.
PN517
And, Mr Gelsumini, do you initiate that consultation?---Yes.
PN518
So you do have consultation then?---Yes. By the time I have done that it has already been - whatever has been done has been done. The men have been relocated without me knowing about it.
PN519
Mr Gelsumini, you have regard to the temperature and know when it is going to be a hot day and when the weather may approach 32, do you not?---Not unless I ring up.
PN520
Sorry?---Not unless I ring up on the phone and find out.
PN521
You don't watch the weather the night before for instance on the TV news?---No, not all the time.
PN522
You don't have a look at the newspaper and have a look to see what it may be today?---Don't read the newspaper.
PN523
You wouldn't think it may be appropriate to have an understanding on hot days when it may approach 32 or 35 and it is going to affect production?---Yes, I do. When I get time to get home to watch the news I do.
PN524
You work outside, Mr Gelsumini?---Yes, I do.
PN525
You have a general understanding when it is getting hot and it may be approaching 30 odd degrees?---Yes.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN526
And when you are starting to feel a bit hot in those circumstances is there anything that would stop you from having consultation with the relevant union people?---No.
[11.52am]
PN527
In paragraph 13 of your statement you refer to a conversation you say you had with Mr Sposito. Mr Sposito said things were different last year than what they are now. Story about that?---Yes, I read that, yes.
PN528
There is a difference being that Mr Sposito is talking to is when the stage of the project was that it was in the ground?---Sorry, can you repeat that, please, what you are trying to ask?
PN529
Certainly?---I can't hear, I am sorry.
PN530
You refer to a conversation you had with Mr Sposito where he said that he made a mistake last year and this year he can't work in the shade?---Yes, I can read - yes, I am reading that.
[11.54am]
PN531
Is it the situation, Mr Gelsumini, that period that Mr Sposito is referring to was when the project was in the ground?---No.
PN532
Do you know when he was referring to then?---Well, last year, what he is referring to last year, is that what you are asking me?
PN533
Yes?---Well, he is referring to when we get shade from the buildings next door where he let me work in those shaded areas.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN534
Now the project is higher up and you don't be subject to as much shade as you used to?---We are still subject to the shade of the other buildings, yes. This is the same reference what I am talking about, yes.
PN535
But it has changed as a result of the project going higher up?---A little bit. But still there are shaded areas where the men can work.
PN536
Is your understanding of the agreement that there needs to be consultation prior to relocation but there is not a requirement for an agreement to be reached?---Sorry?
PN537
Is your understanding of the agreement operating on the site is that there needs to be consultation prior to relocation but not necessarily agreement?---No, I thought you had to make an agreement to relocate after consultation.
PN538
And where does your understanding of that come from, Mr Gelsumini?---From the - I don't know exactly what section it is but it is in the VBIA.
PN539
Can I provide you with a copy of the VBIA. I am not sure if it is the relevant of it. I have got it open at clause 26 but it may or may not be that that you are referring to?---Yes, I have read it.
PN540
And you say that prior to relocation one requires that agreement to be reached?---I believe it, yes. I believe so but after reading this.
PN541
What do you rely upon, Mr Gelsumini to arrive at that belief?---Sorry?
PN542
What do you rely upon to arrive at that belief? Can you refer me to the words that you says that you need agreement?---Just common knowledge.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN543
Sorry?---Just common knowledge.
PN544
Common knowledge?---Yes.
PN545
You told me that you understood that it was in the VBIA?---Yes.
PN546
I will provide you with a copy of the VBIA. Can you show me where - - -?---I must have misread it. Down the bottom here, 26.14, that is what I probably read:
PN547
Is agreed by the parties that prior to any employee leaving the site due to inclement weather consultation shall take place between union representatives and site management.
PN548
That is where I have understood it from.
PN549
And what do you say that means?---On consultation on when leaving site. It says here reading on 26.14 the consultation leaving on site.
PN550
My question and the questions I was asking, Mr Gelsumini, was prior to relocation?---Yes.
PN551
I wasn't talking about leaving site?---I thought it would be addressed in the same manner.
PN552
That there needs to be consultation?---I believe there needs to be consultation, yes.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN553
But not agreement?---Not by this, no.
PN554
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Anything else, Mr Maddison?
PN555
MR MADDISON: About that. Paragraph 17 of your statement you refer to an incident there?---Yes.
PN556
Can you give details of that incident?---Yes, as per the statement.
PN557
Did something fall down a lift shaft?---Yes. It says it in the statement, yes.
PN558
What does it say?---A dumpster.
PN559
The dumpster fell down the lift shaft?---No, it says a dumpster was stuck in the hole.
PN560
But did it fall down the lift shaft?---Yes.
PN561
It doesn't say that in your statement, does it?---No, it says into a hole. No.
PN562
But it fell down the lift shaft, didn't it?---It was in the lift shaft, yes.
PN563
Because it fell in there?---Yes.
PN564
It could have, fortunately it didn't, but it could have resulted in a very serious injury, couldn't it, Mr Gelsumini?---Yes.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN565
And you are on the site safety committee, aren't you?---Yes, I am.
PN566
And you understand that the procedure is when there is a matter as serious as this, report to the site safety committee, isn't it?---Yes.
PN567
You didn't do that, did you?---No, I didn't.
PN568
Any reason?---I made a mistake.
PN569
When was the VWA notified?---One week later.
PN570
Sorry?---I believe one week later.
PN571
A week later. Would this incident be recorded in your diary?---I don't know.
PN572
Will you have a look for us, Mr Gelsumini?---Yes.
PN573
And provide us with a copy of that entry for 19 August 2003?---Yes.
PN574
And what jogged your memory, Mr Gelsumini?---Sorry?
PN575
What jogged your memory or made you start recalling the incident of telling the site safety committee what actually happened?---When I realised I made a mistake.
PN576
What was your mistake?---That I didn't report the incident.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN577
Deliberately?---Yes.
PN578
And you hoped that nobody would know and nothing would come of it, didn't you?---Yes.
PN579
Mr Gelsumini, you have indicated that you are on the site safety committee, are you aware that there are circumstances where employees should not work one out, they should work in pairs or a team of least two?---Yes, I am.
PN580
Would such a circumstance be a person should not work one out if they are working on elevated work, platform drilling into concrete?---Yes.
PN581
That person should work in a team of two?---Not necessarily, no.
PN582
On some occasions they should?---Maybe some occasions they should.
PN583
I will provide you a copy of a site safety meeting that says that you attended on 11 July 2003. Your Honour, it is CFMEU2 I have provided the witness. Do you see the item 54.12?---Yes.
PN584
Which says:
PN585
All activity must be carried out in a team of at least two people.
PN586
?---Yes, it does say that.
PN587
Would that include the circumstance that I just described to you, that is, a person working on elevated work, platform undertaking drilling activities?---Yes.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN588
Can I refer you to paragraph 24 of your witness statement?---Yes.
PN589
That person who was doing the concrete drilling on that day was working on an elevated work platform and one out, was he not?---I believe there was a spotter in place, yes.
PN590
So your recollection was that he wasn't working by himself?---No. What I can remember, no.
PN591
If there was a spotter in place would it be that they would exchange duties throughout the course of the day, that is, the person who is drilling go to the spotting duty and the spotter go and do some drilling?---No, I don't believe so.
PN592
Paragraph 26?---Yes.
PN593
And you refer to an incident that led to a worker involved in overseeing some serious rope burns?---Yes, that is correct.
PN594
And that incident was the result of, as you say, there is a pulley system which was lifting timber?---Yes.
PN595
Is that correct?---Yes.
PN596
And the timber fell some eight or 10 metres from the top of the Lubeca to the level 15 foyer, is that correct?---I believe that is correct, yes.
PN597
And the timber when it fell hit a screen which was partly damaged, is that correct?---As per the report, yes.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN598
And it is true, is it not, Mr Gelsumini, that there is no JSA which provides for the lowering of timber other than by crane, is that your understanding?---I believe so.
PN599
So it is fair to say that the way that this work was being undertaken should not have been undertaken in the manner that it was?---No.
PN600
And again fortunately could have led to a serious injury but fortunately did not?---That is correct.
PN601
And Grocon have the overriding responsibility to ensure that the workplace is safe and the work is carried out in the accordance with the JSAs in operation at the site, is that correct?---That is correct.
PN602
And for whatever reason that hadn't happened on this occasion?---That is correct.
PN603
Now, Mr Gelsumini, can I refer you to paragraph 39 of your witness statement. Sorry, Mr Gelsumini, just before I go to that, just in relation to that last matter that I was asking you some questions about, about the timber. The mass meeting that took place it was agreed, wasn't it?---No.
PN604
So if it wasn't agreed then the employees shouldn't have been paid for that time?---Correct.
PN605
In paragraph 39 you refer to a mass meeting of workers, do you see that?---Yes.
PN606
And you weren't at that meeting, were you?---I can't remember.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN607
You don't know if you were there or not?---I can't remember just off the top of my head, no.
PN608
So you don't remember whether or not you saw Mr Cody put the resolution or somebody else told you about that?---Yes, someone might have told me about that.
PN609
So you don't think that you were at the meeting?---I can't remember. I can't recall.
[12.10pm]
PN610
Mr Gelsumini, jumping a crane is a dangerous - can be dangerous, is that fair to say?---Yes.
PN611
And your understanding, is it not, that it should only take place where weather conditions are very good, that is, very little wind, no rain, they are the only circumstances that a crane should be jumped?---That is correct.
PN612
Do you know what the weather conditions were on 13 June 2003 which you refer to in paragraph 54 of your statement?---Not off the top of my head, no.
PN613
You say in your witness statement, Mr Gelsumini, that for work to be undertaken on a Sunday that the agreement of the union is not required or necessary in paragraph 55 of your statement. Do you see why you say that?---Yes, I do.
PN614
Why is that your understanding or belief?---I really can't answer that. Did you write that, Mr Gelsumini?---Yes, I must have.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN615
But you don't know why you have that view?---No.
PN616
Mr Gelsumini, it is quite common for employees on your site to start at 6.30 am?---Sorry?
PN617
Employees - sorry, I will withdraw that?---Yes.
PN618
The normal starting time is 7 am, is that correct?---Yes.
PN619
And from Monday and Thursday the normal hours are 7 am till 5.30 pm?---Not for every employee.
PN620
What percentage would work through to 5.30 pm?---Sorry?
PN621
What percentage would work through to 5.30 pm?---From seven in the morning?
PN622
Yes?---Probably about 80 per cent, maybe 90.
PN623
They work till 5.30 Monday to Thursday?---Most people do, yes.
PN624
And on Friday from 7 am till 3.30?---Yes.
PN625
And on Saturday, what time do they work on Saturdays?---Seven to 2.30.
PN626
And they just have one shorter break on Saturday?---That is correct, yes.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN627
And it is reasonably common for different employees, various employees to start at 6.30 am?---Yes.
PN628
And they would work through to the same time, 5.30 pm Monday to Thursday?---No, no. Apart from the crane crew.
PN629
Sorry?---Apart from the crane crew.
PN630
Right. What time would the people who start at 6.30 otherwise?---Five o'clock.
PN631
And how do you go about getting people to start at 6.30?---What do you mean by that?
PN632
Well, if people normally start at seven you may have an occasion for a couple of days, a week, or however long that you want people to start at 6.30 am that whatever the operational requirements may be, how do you go about changing their starting time from 7 am till 6.30?---I go and make an agreement with the person prior to that day, or to those days.
PN633
So you will come up to him in the afternoon for instance and say can you start at 6.30 am tomorrow?---No. No, I don't do that.
PN634
How do you do it?---I give them at least two to three days notice. Even a week sometimes.
PN635
And usually they don't have a problem with that?---Usually they don't, no.
PN636
Sometimes they do?---I haven't had anybody yet.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN637
In paragraph 62 and 63 of your statement you refer to conversations with Mr Sposito and John Setka. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN638
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, which paragraph are you at?
PN639
MR MADDISON: Sorry, 62 and 63, your Honour.
PN640
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN641
MR MADDISON: Do you see that?---Yes.
PN642
And at the end of paragraph 63 you quote John Setka where he allegedly said:
PN643
If payment is not made by Thursday, 5 February there will be industrial action on the 6th.
PN644
?---Yes.
PN645
There was no industrial action on 6 February, was there?---No.
PN646
Mr Gelsumini, you then go on and talk about an incident that happened on 2 June 2004 where there was some consultation between you and Mr Sposito about whether or not spitting is inclement weather and whether it was raining or not?---Mm.
PN647
And as a result of that consultation you directed the men to go home and not perform overtime?---Sorry, what day was that?
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN648
This is on 2 June. It starts at paragraph 64 and it goes where there was a discussion you refer to in paragraph 66 about whether it was raining or not?---64 refers to Saturday work.
PN649
Yes?---Yes.
PN650
And you go over the page?---And you go to 66, yes.
PN651
Yes, you are on the top deck with Mr Sposito. There was some interesting discussion about what constitutes rain?---Yes.
PN652
And it appears that work stopped for a little while and then was able to recommence because it wasn't raining, do you see that?---Yes.
PN653
And then in paragraph 68 even though it wasn't raining you sent the men home and asked them not to perform any overtime?---Yes, that is correct.
PN654
Do you say you have a right to place an overtime ban on employees?---It wasn't an overtime ban.
PN655
What were you doing?---Nothing. I just had enough for the day.
PN656
Had enough for the day?---I had enough of the conversation before and I had enough for the day. It might have been the wrong call.
PN657
Thank you, Mr Gelsumini for your answers. No further questions, your Honour.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MADDISON
PN658
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any cross-examination?
PN659
MR MIER: No, your Honour.
PN660
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No.
PN661
PN662
MR COONEY: A number of times in your statement at paragraphs 22, 26, 39, 48 and 63 you refer to mass meetings. Now, as a foreman you wouldn't attend those mass meetings unless you were invited along which you were on 16 April 2004?---That is correct, yes.
PN663
So you would have no direct knowledge of what occurs at those mass meetings?---No.
PN664
And in reference to those mass meetings would you record the occurrence of those mass meetings in your diary at all?---I would just record the day that it happens, yes. The day that it happens. I wouldn't actually be there.
PN665
So nothing that actually occurred in those meetings?---No, no.
PN666
Okay, thanks very much. Thank you, your Honour.
PN667
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. Re-examination?
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR COONEY
PN668
PN669
MR SKENE: You were asked some questions about some industrial action you record in your statement as industrial action that occurred on 27 August of a truck incident. Could I just ask you to turn to exhibit GPG1. Now, you say in your statement that is the dispute board finding in relation to that truck incident. What was the outcome of the dispute board's finding about that time?---Can I just spend a bit of time to read this, please?
PN670
Yes, sure?---Sorry, I can't remember.
PN671
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Doesn't it speak for itself?---Yes.
PN672
MR SKENE: Do you know what the outcome was?---I can't recall, no, sorry.
PN673
Fine. Your Honour, I don't take that any further. You - no, I withdraw that. I have no further questions.
PN674
PN675
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Your next witness?
PN676
PN677
MR SKENE: Would you state your name and occupation?---Peter Michael Green, I am a safety officer at Grocon RACV.
PN678
Have you prepared a statement in relation to these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN679
Mr Green, you are being handed a document of 10 pages plus one attachment. Can you identify that document?---Yes, I can.
PN680
What is it?---It is a witness statement prepared on my behalf.
PN681
And do you have any changes to it?---Yes, I would like to make amendments to - - -
PN682
Perhaps if I take you to paragraph 25?---Yes.
PN683
In paragraph 25, it is on page 7 going over to page 8, there is a sentence that commences:
PN684
At or around 11.15 am I saw Mr Sposito approach these plasterers and ordered them to the sheds.
PN685
What should that say?---I was informed by a Grocon supervisor of the area that Mr Sposito approached the plasterers.
PN686
So if we replace the word saw with informed by a foreman would that be accurate?---Yes, that is correct.
PN687
Is that paragraph otherwise correct?---Yes, that is correct.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XN MR SKENE
PN688
Is your statement otherwise true and correct?---Yes, that is correct.
PN689
PN690
MR SKENE: Mr Green, you give some evidence about an incident involving an employee drilling some concrete and the employee was on a scissor lift. We have heard evidence the employer was on scissor lift. In your opinion what circumstances can an employee work alone?---Carrying out particular duties such as traffic management, duties where they have assistance as in regard of a spotter or someone assisting them in that task, primarily where apprentices can't work unsupervised or someone can be in a confined space where they can't be attended to by somebody.
[12.27pm]
PN691
Mr Green, I am just going to hand an exhibit CFMEU2 which is marked at the top. It is the minutes of a safety meeting held on 11 July and you will see item 54.12 at the bottom of the page that is in grey and it says:
PN692
All activity must be carried out in teams of at least two people.
PN693
What do you say about that statement?---Perhaps I should have expanded more on the minutes on this issue. It was raised about an apprentice being on site being unsupervised by a subcontractor, so we addressed that in that manner. Maybe I should have expanded more to carry out necessary assumptions on other duties on the site on how they are performed.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XN MR SKENE
PN694
Now, just in your statement, Mr Green, could I take you to paragraph 25. You have just changed paragraph 25 to say rather than you saw you were told by a foreman about Mr Sposito approaching the plasterers. What was said to you?---The supervisor in question rang me on my mobile phone and informed me that Mr Sposito had sent the plasterers to the shed at that time.
PN695
What did you do then?---I said to the foreman in question that we had already opened those areas up for productive work and I was under the assumption that the work would be carried out as per their duties.
PN696
How did you know area had been open for work?---I opened the area in conjunction with the OH and S representative, temporary representative on site.
PN697
Who is that?---James Cody.
PN698
In paragraph 26 you refer to an incident and we have already heard some evidence about on 15 April concerning rope burns. Following that incident on 15 April what steps did you take to investigate?---We went to the incident in question. I assembled the safety committee and we conducted interviews at the scene of the incident, asked a few questions of why this occurred and I followed that up by making the report and we intended to have a JSA tool box meeting to discuss control measures to put in place so it didn't happen again.
PN699
Thank you, your Honour. No further questions.
PN700
PN701
MR MADDISON: Mr Green, in your statement commencing at paragraph 7 you deal with issue relating to having a stand-by crane crew on site and various circumstances?---That is correct.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN702
The first matter I want to raise with you, you say in your witness statement that when work is being carried out in certain areas that there doesn't need to be a stand-by crew if access is unimpeded and an ambulance can get in and get people out?---Yes.
PN703
There may also be other circumstances, may there not, where you would need a stand-by crew?---Yes.
PN704
And may be in some circumstances, for instance, if there was no concrete pour going on people were working down the lower levels and the ambulance could get in, easy access to site that you wouldn't need a stand-by crew?---Yes.
PN705
But where the same circumstances other than there was concrete pour happening and there was concrete trucks coming in and out and impeding easy access to the site you may need a stand-by crew?---Yes.
PN706
So it is a position where you need to had regard to the particular circumstances that are at the site on any given day whether a stand-by crew would be needed or not?---Yes.
PN707
This situation becomes more of an issue after hours than during normal working hours, is that right?---No.
PN708
There could be an issue at any time during the normal hours or outside of normal working hours that there would need to be an assessment made whether a stand-by crew was necessary?---Yes.
PN709
And that would be done in consultation with the site safety committee?---Yes.
PN710
In paragraph 13 of your statement you refer to a demonstration given by Allan Kerr?---Yes.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN711
And that demonstration was given specifically in relation to getting injured workers out of the Lubeca system?---Yes.
PN712
And the situation with the Lubeca system is that there is - you are unable to access a lot of areas in that system with a crane anyway, can you?---Yes.
PN713
So you do need an alternative method to get people out of that system if they were injured?---Yes.
PN714
And that demonstration only went to the circumstances about the Lubeca system?---Yes.
PN715
So the safety committee may have agreed that in relation to the Lubeca system this was an appropriate way but it didn't necessarily extend to all circumstances across the site, did it?---No.
PN716
Is your understanding that the site safety committee still agreed that the method taking out of the Lubeca system that Mr Kerr demonstrated is an appropriate way for getting people out of that system?---No.
PN717
Can you expand on that?---Well, there has been instances where as in such ..... that the crane would not be needed. We were told that there would no workers doing any productive work if the cranes were not present on site.
PN718
While people were only working on the Lubeca?---No.
PN719
Sorry?---No. If people were working on the Lubeca the crane would be needed.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN720
Would be needed?---Unless the Alimak was operating and we could lower that person down to a lower level where we could exit them through one of the lower boxes into the Alimak to the staircase, which we went through that procedure.
PN721
And that is the extent of the agreement on the site in relation to the Lubeca system?---Yes. We had a gentleman come out from First Aid Responder and we went through the process of lowering someone down through the stretcher into the stair access from the lower levels of the core.
PN722
Mr Green, in paragraph 21 of your statement you refer to what you say is Mr Mazzone's aggressive, threatening and intimidating attitude towards yourself and Mr Gelsumini?---Yes, that is correct.
PN723
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN724
And you say that you and Mr Gelsumini walked away from Mr Mazzone without comment and proceeded towards the east core of the RACV project?---Not entirely correct. I left the party due to the circumstances at the time and Mr Gelsumini and Mr Mazzone attended the east core and opened the core.
PN725
Mr Green, weren't you concerned to Mr Gelsumini alone with Mr Mazzone given his aggressive, threatening and intimidating manner and attitude?---At the time Mr Gelsumini had classified Mr Mazzone and I deemed it appropriate that he could continue the safety walk with Mr Mazzone.
PN726
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Mazzone is no longer employed on site, is he?
PN727
MR MADDISON: No, he is not. Mr Skinner gave evidence to that.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN728
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN729
MR MADDISON: But it couldn't have been too bad, could it, Mr Green, for you to have just left Mr Gelsumini all alone with Mr Mazzone, could it?---At the time I felt threatened and intimidated by Mr Mazzone actions and I deemed it at the time that Mr Gelsumini classified Mr Mazzone in a way that he was not in any danger.
PN730
Mr Green, you have made some amendments to paragraph 25 of your statement to say that you were informed by a supervisor about what you say Mr Sposito did in relation to the plasterers. Who was that supervisor?---Mr David Collins, our supervisor on the lower levels.
PN731
And he told you what is indicated in your statement there, that he ordered people to the sheds?---Yes.
PN732
Mr Green, Mr Skene asked you some questions about the incident of 15 April 2004 which resulted in some rope burns and the subsequent interview process. Do you recall those questions?---Yes.
PN733
It is the case, is it not, Mr Green, that what was taking place was that some timber was being pulled up on some pulleys and some timber fell down, fell about eight to 10 metres, is that correct?---Yes.
PN734
And from the top of the Lubeca to the level 15 foyer?---Yes.
PN735
And the fall partially damaged a screen, is that correct?---Yes.
PN736
It is true, is it not, Mr Green, that there is a JSA on the site that timber can only be lowered by crane, is that correct?---Yes.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN737
Sorry?---Yes.
PN738
So the work shouldn't have been undertaken in the manner that it did, should it?---Yes.
PN739
And have you spoken to Rick Mayer, the foreman for the Lubeca system to ensure that there is no further safety breach in this manner again in the future?---Yes.
PN740
It is the position, is it not, of Grocon that they have the overarching responsibility for safety on the site and ensuring that JSAs on the site are complied with?---Yes.
PN741
And in this instance, for whatever reason, that didn't happen, did it?---Yes.
PN742
In paragraphs 31 and 32 refer, Mr Green, to a dispute of the concrete pour which was stopped after some concrete fell into the courtyard and the building next door?---Yes.
PN743
And you have provided an independent engineer's report that is attachment PG1?---Yes.
PN744
And that report was undertaken at the request of the unions who were not satisfied with the initial engineer's report, is that correct?---Yes.
PN745
Mr Green, you did not have any discussion about this report with the site safety committee, did you?---In regarding - can you clarify that question?
PN746
My understanding and correct me if I am wrong, Mr Green, that this report was just put in the pigeon holes of the various members of the site safety committee and wasn't tabled at a meeting and discussed, is that correct?---This particular report?
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN747
Yes?---This was the consultant's report?
PN748
Yes?---No, this was actually in the morning.
PN749
On which morning?---On the day stated.
PN750
On 24 May?---The 23rd. I received that on the Friday I think it was and the available day for work was placed in the safety committee's possession.
PN751
Sorry?---It was given to the safety committee in the morning.
PN752
There was a meeting at 6.45 on Monday, 24 May?---And the safety committee were present on site that morning.
PN753
And you say you discussed this report with them?---I did not discuss the report. I placed the relevant information with the safety committee because they had requested a follow up engineer's report.
PN754
So you just tabled it but didn't discuss it, is that what you are saying?---That is correct.
PN755
Mr Skene asked you some questions, Mr Green, about the minutes of the safety meeting 11 July 2003 and referred you to a statement saying:
PN756
All activity must be carried out in a team of at least two people.
PN757
Do you recall those questions?---Yes.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN758
Mr Skene also asked you questions in relation to a person who was drilling into concrete from an elevate work platform, do you recall that?---Yes.
PN759
You say that this activity should be carried out in a team of at least two people?---Yes, there was a spotter present I believe. The activity in question ceased before we arrived so it is hard to ascertain exactly what circumstances.
[12.46pm]
PN760
You don't know whether there was a spotter or not?---The shop steward had ceased the activity when we arrived. I was led to believe there was a spotter but it is hard to ascertain because we were not present during the activity. We were brought to the incident and informed by the shop steward that this work would no longer be carried out by one person because of the repetitive nature of the works.
PN761
You spoke to the person who was undertaking the task, did you not?---Yes.
PN762
Did you ask him whether there was a spotter present?---Yes.
PN763
And what did he say?---He said he had a spotter present because of the area. The area was, I am lead to believe, hazard taped to indicate a hazard.
PN764
Sorry?---There was hazard tape marking the area as in the works carried out on the edge of that building when there is a risk of any person entering the area there is usually a hazard tape present.
PN765
So he said that there was a spotter present?---He informed so, yes.
PN766
But the spotter wasn't present when you arrived?---No, because the activity had ceased when we arrived and the worker had been told to come down from the scissor lift and cease doing his work.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN767
And then did you ask him to recommence that task?---No, I cannot order labour. I am a safety officer predominantly and I cannot instruct people to carry out work.
PN768
Mr Green, there is evidence been given today in relation to an incident 19 August 2003, an incident where a dumpster was stuck in a hole. Are you aware of that incident?---Yes, I was informed. I was not present on the day of the investigation by the safety committee but I was informed about that when I returned from my course I was carrying out that day.
PN769
On which day?---On the question that it was first raised with Mr Gelsumini.
PN770
And when was that?---I will refresh my memory. What was the particular - - -
PN771
I don't think you refer to it directly in your statement, Mr Green?---I think I clarified Mr Gelsumini's statement.
PN772
Sorry?---I think I clarified Mr Gelsumini's statement as to the events because I wasn't present. I wasn't present on the day.
PN773
I will provide you a copy of Mr Gelsumini's statement, if your Honour's associate would be kind enough. It is paragraph 17 is where it is first referred to. Have you had an opportunity to read that?---Yes.
PN774
Mr Green, you have had an opportunity refresh your memory, when do you say that you were informed about this incident?---When I returned from my safety course.
PN775
Which was?---On that day in the afternoon.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN776
Which day are you referring to?---The 27th.
PN777
The 27th is when you first became aware of the incident?---Yes, that is correct.
PN778
And you are aware of what could have been a very serious accident or injury could have resulted from the incident?---Yes.
PN779
And it is an incident which should have been reported to the site safety committee and to you immediately after it happened, shouldn't it?---Yes.
PN780
And you spoke to Mr Gelsumini about the incident?---Yes.
PN781
I know you weren't in the room, but Mr Gelsumini gave evidence that he sought to deliberately not tell the site safety committee about the incident and hoped that people wouldn't find out about it?---Excuse me, could you clarify that?
PN782
Evidence was given by Mr Gelsumini that he knew that he should have told the site safety committee. He didn't do that. I am only paraphrasing but I am sure Mr Skene will jump to Mr Gelsumini's defence if I overstep the evidence that was given, but in short he hoped that nobody was going to find out about the incident and life would go on without anybody having to know about it?---Yes, well, that is - - -
PN783
That was evidence that was given today. Is that your understanding of Mr Gelsumini's actions?---Yes.
PN784
Following the incident on 19 August?---Yes.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MADDISON
PN785
And do you know what if any steps Grocon have taken in respect of Mr Gelsumini's conduct?---I am led to believe that Mr Gelsumini had to explain himself to management about the incident and the way he handled himself to our OH and S manager, Mr Bruce Burleigh and myself interviewed Greg and on the way we report procedures on site, report incidents and Greg assured us that it would not happen again, he made a mistake on the day and it would not happen again.
PN786
Given Mr Gelsumini and I must say personally with great credit to him to give that evidence, but given his conduct can you understand once the union found out what had happened that people on the site were quite outraged by what had happened?---Yes.
PN787
Thank you, Mr Green. No further questions, your Honour.
PN788
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Mier.
PN789
PN790
MR MIER: Mr Green, paragraph 24 of your statement?---Yes.
PN791
In here you said that you saw Ms Garbett address the electricians. Where did you see her address them?---Not particularly correct. I should have amended that. I saw the electricians leaving as I exited the Alimak and I said to Vanessa, "Where are they going?" She said, "The clement weather has elapsed and I am sending them home."
PN792
So you didn't see Ms Garbett address the electricians?---No, she would have addressed the electricians in a closed meeting, as is normal practice from the steward on site.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MIER
PN793
All right. Are you aware that there was an agreement with Mr Greg Gelsumini - I was going to say Domacevic. Are you aware of an agreement that Ms Garbett had made with Greg?---No. It would be IR. I wouldn't have anything to do with it.
PN794
THE VICE PRESIDENT: In relation to what?
PN795
MR MIER: In relation to what he is talking about here because it had been agreed and we happen to have a diary here and I can read out of it if the Commission likes.
PN796
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, that is fine, Mr Mier. I just wanted to know what - so the agreement that you are referring to in your question to the witness relates to what took place on 30 January 2004, is that right?
PN797
MR MIER: That is correct and there was an agreement made, Commissioner.
PN798
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.
PN799
MR MIER: Your Honour, sorry.
PN800
Mr Green, do you have authority over Greg?---I represent the client as an OH and S officer on site.
PN801
What, the RACV?---For RACV. For Grocon and the RACV project, sorry.
PN802
So what are you trying to get at here in clause 24 when you have - are you just painting a picture, or what are you trying to get at?---No, it is just a recollection of the events.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MIER
PN803
So the reality is that there was an agreement with the construction manager of - - -
PN804
MR SKENE: I object to this. There is no evidence of any agreement. That question can't properly be put.
PN805
MR MIER: I have just got to seek instructions.
PN806
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That is fine.
PN807
MR MIER: I have made a bit of an oversight, your Honour. I had forgotten to ask Mr Gelsumini that, that question what we are discussing now about payment for that issue so if I would be able to recall him at a later date to just confirm that?
PN808
THE VICE PRESIDENT: So you have got no more questions for this witness in relation to this issue?
PN809
MR MIER: No, not really, no, because he has admitted he has made an error.
PN810
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, in relation to whether or not he saw Ms Garbett addressing the electricians, yes.
PN811
MR MIER: And he hadn't. Thank you, your Honour.
PN812
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any re-examination?
PN813
MR SKENE: No re-examination, your Honour.
**** PETER MICHAEL GREEN XXN MR MIER
PN814
PN815
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you want to recall Mr Gelsumini, is that the application you are making, Mr Mier?
PN816
MR MIER: Yes, your Honour.
PN817
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That is to ask him questions about the incident on 30 January 2004?
PN818
MR MIER: About 30 January '04, yes.
PN819
MR SKENE: Look, it is somewhat unusual to recall a witness because an advocate forgets to put a question. Mr Gelsumini is here, if it can be done quickly and it is confined to that issue then we are happy to permit that to go ahead.
PN820
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, so am I on that basis. Mr Gelsumini, can you resume your seat. I don't think it is necessary to re-swear the witness.
PN821
MR SKENE: Well, I don't object to him being regarded as being on his former oath.
PN822
PN823
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Mier.
PN824
MR MIER: Mr Gelsumini, on the incident regarding 30 January '04, the de-watering issue, did you have a telephone call at around 11 am from Ms Garbett?---Yes.
PN825
In that discussion was it put to you that the job is still flooded and they will go home, that the boys will go home as long as they leave some stand-by electricians there?---Not in those terms, no.
PN826
Could you please explain it to me?---She referred to the temporary electricians which are only four people, not to the 40 Neilsen's people.
PN827
Can you elaborate on that, mate?---Can I elaborate on that? She asked me if the temporary electricians could go because the area where they had their tools was under water and I said, if that is the case, which we did see in the morning that that was under water, then that is the way it goes, as per the rules.
PN828
So the temporary electricians you agreed could go home?---Yes, the four temporary electricians, yes.
PN829
But there was still one stayed there?---Sorry?
PN830
There was still an electrician stayed off the temporary crew?---I believe on stand-by, yes.
PN831
Yes, right. And what happened to the other 40 electricians?---After I found out that they went home.
**** GREGORIO GELSUMINI XXN MR MIER
PN832
To your knowledge do you know if they got paid?---I believe they did. I am not sure. I didn't ask the contractor.
PN833
No further questions, your Honour.
PN834
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Re-examination?
PN835
MR SKENE: No, nothing arising.
PN836
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Gelsumini?---Thank you, your Honour.
PN837
PN838
MR SKENE: Your Honour, that concludes the evidence proposed to be led by the applicant.
PN839
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Where are you placed in relation to your 2.15?
PN840
MR SKENE: Your Honour, I just don't know.
PN841
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you want to - - -
PN842
MR SKENE: Perhaps if I could make a call, if we could just adjourn for two or three minutes?
PN843
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, certainly because you could go to submissions now if that assists.
PN844
MR SKENE: Yes, that might be an expeditious way. I am not sure how long. I can indicate that I won't be very long in submissions at all.
PN845
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN846
MR SKENE: But if I could perhaps ask for an adjournment for a couple of minutes?
PN847
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, no, certainly. Well, we will adjourn for say till 1.10.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [1.03pm]
RESUMED [1.14pm]
PN848
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Skene.
PN849
MR SKENE: Your Honour, my obligations are that I need to go and attend to this affidavit as a matter of urgency to enable it to be filed prior to the 2.15 matter.
PN850
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN851
MR SKENE: Once I have done that I could be available to come back here to conclude the submissions today, however my preference would be to return tomorrow morning to conclude the submissions. I have had discussions with Mr Maddison and we think that it would take less than an hour for us to do it.
PN852
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.
PN853
MR SKENE: Now, I appreciate that is the convenience of the Commission, so the two options as I see it are tomorrow morning at any time that is convenient to you or this afternoon at two.
PN854
THE VICE PRESIDENT: So we conclude within the hour, so 10 to 11 tomorrow would do it?
PN855
MR SKENE: Your Honour, that would do it from my perspective.
PN856
MR MADDISON: And I certainly won't be very long. I know your Honour sometimes has questions and they can lead off.
PN857
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, I will try to resist the temptation. No, that is fine.
PN858
MR SKENE: Well, subject to your Honour's questions we can be concluded within the hour.
PN859
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Mier, do you have any different view?
PN860
MR MIER: I won't be able to make it tomorrow at 10 o'clock but I am sure Mr Maddison can look after us.
PN861
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Look after your interests.
PN862
MR MIER: Yes, I am sure he will.
PN863
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Rather than Mr Cooney who is in the same organisation, but anyway.
PN864
MR COONEY: And much loved and great fellows we are too.
PN865
MR MIER: He is a plumber, mate.
PN866
MR COONEY: I am not actually but anyway. Yes. No, that is fine, your Honour. I will just be briefly to our submissions and that will be about it. About five minutes max.
PN867
THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Okay. Then we will adjourn until 10 am tomorrow.
PN868
MR SKENE: Thank you very much.
PN869
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Will your matter conclude today, Mr Skene?
PN870
MR SKENE: Look, it won't conclude today, your Honour, but I suspect it won't be on tomorrow so I will be available between 10 and 12.
PN871
THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Okay. We will adjourn until 10 tomorrow. Thank you.
ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 14 JULY 2004 [1.16pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
IAN WILLIAM SKINNER, SWORN PN88
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SKENE PN88
EXHIBIT #A2 STATEMENT OF I. SKINNER DATED 21/06/2004 PN96
EXHIBIT #A3 DOCUMENT SENT TO SUBCONTRACTORS PN140
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MADDISON PN167
EXHIBIT #CFMEU1 CODE OF PRACTICE DOCUMENT PN257
EXHIBIT #CFMEU2 MINUTES OF SITE SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING NUMBER 52 HELD ON 11/07/2003 PN315
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MIER PN340
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COONEY PN378
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKENE PN398
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MADDISON PN412
WITNESS WITHDREW PN415
GREGORIO GELSUMINI, SWORN PN417
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SKENE PN417
EXHIBIT #A4 STATEMENT OF MR GELSUMINI PN438
EXHIBIT #A5 ABBOTTS INDUSTRIAL ARMY THEY SHALL NOT PASS PN456
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MADDISON PN458
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COONEY PN662
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKENE PN669
WITNESS WITHDREW PN675
PETER MICHAEL GREEN, SWORN PN677
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SKENE PN677
EXHIBIT #A6 STATEMENT OF MR GREEN PN690
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MADDISON PN701
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MIER PN790
WITNESS WITHDREW PN815
GREGORIO GELSUMINI, RECALLED PN823
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MIER PN823
WITNESS WITHDREW PN838
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