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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
(Administrator Appointed)
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 7922
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER SMITH
C2003/5669
COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL,
ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION,
POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED
SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
- COMMUNICATIONS DIVISION
and
TELSTRA CORPORATION
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re Telstra's intention to replace
12 hours shifts with 8 hours shifts at their
Clayton Operations Centre
MELBOURNE
10.03 AM, TUESDAY, 20 JULY 2004
Continued from 19.7.04
PN4302
PN4303
MR WOOD: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN4304
Ms Heiler, you gave some evidence yesterday about your qualifications and I think you said, and it is in your statement, that you have done some sociological training and you have done training in industrial relations; is that right?---Yes.
PN4305
I take it you haven't ever done any medical training?---No.
PN4306
Never practised as a medical practitioner?---No, I haven't.
PN4307
You have never undertaken any legal training?---No.
PN4308
Never practised as a legal practitioner?---No.
PN4309
And I understand your status is as a senior fellow?---Research fellow, yes.
PN4310
Research fellow, I am sorry. You are not a professor?---No, I'm not.
PN4311
And you don't have a PhD?---No, I don't.
PN4312
You have written on a variety of subjects though, haven't you?---Yes, I have.
PN4313
I just looked through some of the work you have done over the past 10 years. I see you have published some material on drug and alcohol testing?---Yes.
PN4314
Published some material on childcare and a changing industrial relations environment?---Mm.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4315
Is that right?---Yes.
PN4316
Published some material on - under the title of Do We Really Know What Enterprise Bargaining Has Meant for Women's Wages in Australia?---Yes.
PN4317
Is that correct?---Yes.
PN4318
Your interest in the question of extended hours though goes back not quite 10 years but about eight years; is that right?---Yes, yes - - -
PN4319
And - I beg your pardon?---Yes, although the issue of working hours was an issue when I was a senior consultant in childcare at work.
PN4320
Perhaps I should re-phrase that. Your research interest or your formal research interest in extended hours goes back eight years to your work with the coal mines in New South Wales and Queensland?---I would say prior to that.
PN4321
And the first published work that I found of yours in a peer-reviewed sense, and I think you made some point of that in your evidence yesterday, was an extract called The Petty Pilfering of Minutes in 1998?---Yes, that's correct.
PN4322
Around that time you also wrote a paper called The 12 Hour Workday: Emerging Issues?---Yes. Prior to that, however, I'd been co-ordinating - - -
PN4323
I am not asking about prior to that. Ms Bornstein can ask you prior to that. In that paper that you wrote you criticised the finding of Dr Meredith Wallace; isn't that correct?---Look, I don't have the paper in front of me so I can't recall.
PN4324
I will give it to you then. I am sorry I don't have a copy for the Commission or my learned friend. I can arrange for copies if it becomes an issue.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4325
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN4326
MR WOOD: And the third page - this is a document called, the paper I referred to, The 12 Hour Workday: Emerging Issues, Working Paper 51. It says that it is edited by you and its contents include six papers, one of them by you and one of them by Dr Meredith Wallace, and in the introduction to it, at page 2, in the second paragraph you say:
PN4327
In chapter 2, Dr Meredith Wallace reviews some of the international studies on comparisons between eight and 12-hour shift regimes drawing a somewhat controversial conclusion that there's an absence of negative findings where a well-designed 12-hour roster is introduced.
PN4328
Do you agree that you said that?---That's what I said in that paper, yes.
PN4329
Yes. I tender the paper.
PN4330
PN4331
MR WOOD: Around the same time you wrote some papers for the ACTU and one entitled Worktime Life: Reclaiming the Working Time Agenda and then later in 2000 I think you wrote a paper that was picked up by the ILO; is that correct?---Correct.
PN4332
Is it fair to say that the thrust of your research over that period, including the period from '96 to 2000 which I have taken you to and the period from 2000 to the current time, has been with the problems that are caused by extended hours?---I think that's probably fair to say. Yes, I think that's right.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4333
And as I understand things, your research was mainly in the mining industry?---Yes.
PN4334
And I think yesterday in your evidence-in-chief you referred to a paper - I am sorry, I can't remember if you said a paper; I think you said some research which is - I have got a copy of the paper - some research which - in relation to which you said, I think, there was robust peer review prior to your appointment?---Yes.
PN4335
I will hand you a copy of that paper. It is called The Struggle for Time: A Review of Extended Shifts in the Tasmanian Mining Industry. That is a paper that you wrote in 2002; is that right? Is that - would you have a look at the paper first to recall?---Yes, it was the overview report from the Government review.
PN4336
And you wrote that in 2002?---It says so there, yes.
PN4337
Yes. Can you turn to paragraph 2.2 on page 8? Under the first paragraph, .2.2?---Yes.
PN4338
You say, don't you:
PN4339
Whilst non-work and individual factors can influence outcomes the role of long working hours ingenerating fatigue and impaired performance is undeniable.
PN4340
?---Yes.
PN4341
You wrote that?---Mm.
PN4342
I tender the document.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4343
PN4344
MR WOOD: Is it fair to say, Ms Heiler, that your work in the mining industry in Queensland, New South Wales and Tasmania has led to changes in the regulatory environment concerning the mining industry?---If I can be modest I guess I would say that in Tasmania.
PN4345
I understand there have been some changes in Queensland and New South Wales to the mining regulations there to deal with the issue of fatigue; is that not correct?---Yes.
PN4346
And as I understand things the Queensland coal regulations now say that the system of work must provide for the following about personal fatigue for persons at the mine:
PN4347
The maximum number of hours for a working shift, the number and length of rest breaks in a working shift, the maximum number of hours to be worked in a week or roster cycle.
PN4348
?---Yes.
PN4349
And those changes are due to the work that you have done, are they not?---I can't comment on that.
PN4350
I see. You said that your work has had an impact in these changes?---I just - I would say, no, I would say so in Tasmania. I'm not prepared to comment about that in Queensland or New South Wales.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4351
That is the type of regulation which has been implemented in Queensland and New South Wales and Tasmania?---Well, it's not finalised in New South Wales but it's on the books.
PN4352
I see?---Yes.
PN4353
And you accept that, don't you, that the issue, that these regulations leave it to the site to determine what the maximum number of hours for a working shift are, what the number of rest breaks are and the maximum number of hours in a week or roster cycle?---In Queensland that's the case. In Tasmania it's somewhat different. There's a two-stage process.
PN4354
All right, what is that?---Well, in Tasmania what was proposed partly as a result of the review was that if - if employers could demonstrate that they had appropriately managed the risks associated with the roster then the regulator would assess that on a case-by-case basis. If it was deemed that the company had failed to demonstrate that they had maintained a safe system of work then the parameters that the Tasmanian Government had put forward in their regulation or their ability to regulate would be enacted and there's a variety of those associated with shift duration, rotation, maximum number of shifts and so on.
PN4355
I think the burden of what you have just said is that you regard the regulation in Tasmania as slightly stronger in relation to fatigue as it is in Queensland?---I would agree with that, yes.
PN4356
And is it fair to say that - and tell me if I am wrong - that neither the Queensland nor the Tasmanian regulations approach these issues from what we might call a European perspective, that is mandating a maximum number of hours and mandating a number of rest breaks and mandating hours in terms of a working shift or hours over a working cycle?---Well, the Tasmanian regulation can mandate if it sees fit.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4357
I see?---So there is a capacity for that.
PN4358
It is true to say, isn't it, that these changes on the books in New South Wales and implemented in Queensland and Tasmania haven't been implemented at the Commonwealth level?---No.
PN4359
And I take it - I have scanned through your CV - and as I understand things you have never been asked to look at or have never had an appointment to examine the Commonwealth Occupational Health and Safety Act?---No, no, I haven't.
PN4360
And I take it that you are not aware of how that Act as opposed to the Queensland mining regulations, proposed New South Wales mining regulations and actual Tasmanian mining regulations work? Is that - - -?---I am sorry, I am not exactly sure what you are asking.
PN4361
Perhaps I should re-phrase the question and make it a little bit shorter. I take it that you don't have a good understanding of how the Commonwealth Act works?---I've read the Commonwealth Act.
PN4362
I see?---And I've had to do that for a number of reasons.
PN4363
I take it having read the Act then you are aware of the system by which breaches of the Act are investigated and prosecuted; are you aware of that?---Without having the Act in front of me I'm not going to say I could recount it.
PN4364
Just tell me you are not aware, that is fine?---I'll say that I'm not aware.
PN4365
Yes. I will ask you slightly more specific questions. Are you aware of the role of occupational health and safety representatives under the Commonwealth Act; just tell me if you are not?---Well, it would depend at what level of detail I'm prepared to say yes or no.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4366
Are you - do you understand how they are elected and what they are supposed to do under the Act?---I would - before I would be prepared to answer any questions I would want to refresh it.
PN4367
Without being refreshed you are not aware?---No.
PN4368
No. Is it fair to say that you haven't been told that there has been any complaint by any of the health and safety representatives at the Global Operations Centre about the changes made in October 2003 to the roster?---Can you repeat that, please?
PN4369
Perhaps I should break it up. Do you know whether Telstra at the Global Operations Centre has any health and safety representatives?---I believe they do.
PN4370
Right. Have you spoken to any of the health and safety representatives?---No, I have not.
PN4371
Do you know whether or not any provisional improvement notices have been issued as a result of the changes - - -?---No.
PN4372
- - - to the roster?---No, I do not.
PN4373
You don't know?---No.
PN4374
Do you know whether there has been any investigation by Comcare into the changes to the roster in October 2003?---No, I do not.
PN4375
I understand that you are now employed by the CFMEU; is that correct?---Yes, I'm on secondment.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4376
What does that mean; who pays your wages?---The CFMEU does.
PN4377
I see. Do you have to become a member of the CFMEU to be employed by them?---No, in fact you are not permitted to as a professional staff member.
PN4378
I see, and you have been there since 2003. When in 2003?---May 24.
PN4379
So just over a year?---Yes.
PN4380
I take it that - I withdraw that. I want to ask you now some questions about the issue of 8 hour versus 12-hour shifts. You say in your statement that - well, I will just find the paragraph in the amended supplementary statement, which I think is exhibit CEPU30.
PN4381
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN4382
MR WOOD: You say at paragraph 51 of your statement:
PN4383
Much has been written about 12-hour shifts and it's not the intention here to undertake a literary review.
PN4384
?---Yes.
PN4385
Indeed, much has been written about 12-hour shifts by you; is that true?---I have written some things about 12-hour shifts, that's true.
PN4386
In the past the issues were often cast as a choice between 8-hour shifts and 12-hour shifts.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4387
It is true to say, by reference to the documents that I have shown you, that you in your research often cast the issues as a choice between 8-hour shifts and 12-hour shifts?---I think that's true in the past, I have, yes.
PN4388
When did you have this Paulian conversion when you decided that this wasn't a big issue as a choice between 8 hour and 12-hour shifts? Was it when you were asked to come and give evidence in this case or some time beforehand?---I'm a researcher and I think of myself principally as a researcher and I think it is true to say, and I try to explain that in my statement, that when 12-hour shifts became popular a great deal of the research was cast in terms of trying to compare rosters on the basis of shift length. My views have changed about that and I am unapologetic about saying so. I now understand that it's - and I think a lot of other researchers have changed their mind about that, and that's what happens with research; new research is undertaken, new insights are gained, and it's beholden upon researchers to take those new insights into account.
PN4389
I am glad you accepted your views have changed. My question was directed to when they changed?---Absolutely not.
PN4390
They didn't change as a result of being called in this case, no?---Absolutely not, absolutely not.
PN4391
As I understand things, when one tries to compare 12-hour rosters to 8-hour rosters or indeed any roster one with another one has to look at the hours that are actually worked as opposed to the hours that the roster says are worked?---That's one effect of it, yes.
PN4392
Yes, I think you made much of that yesterday in your evidence. You said there was a big difference between what a roster says and what it will do and what it actually does. It is the way in which it is implemented that is important. To understand the effect they have you have to look at the way it is actually worked. You don't resile from what you said yesterday, do you?---No, I don't.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4393
Bearing that in mind, assuming the 12-hour roster that was in place at the Global Operations Centre prior to October 2003 and the current roster, it is true to say that the 12-hour roster provided greater opportunity to recover between blocks of work, say four to five days versus two to three days; is that right?---Yes.
PN4394
The flip side of that is that those employees that are not at work for four to five days are not being exposed to the business, are not part of the business for that period; is that correct?---If they're not coming into work, yes.
PN4395
And then if one looks at the 8-hour roster it is also true to say that from the perspective of the 8-hour roster, that the 12-hour roster provides less opportunity to recover between subsequent shifts, ie 16 hours versus 12 hours?---It depends on whether or not overtime is worked on the eights.
PN4396
Of course?---Yes - - -
PN4397
It depends on both?--- - - - but in terms of the design of the roster, yes.
PN4398
Yes, and I think you said this yesterday and I think it is implied in what you have said about your attitude now that the issue of 12 hour versus 8-hour shifts, it is difficult to say because of the differences in time off between shifts, between blocks of shifts, and time off between subsequent shifts to say whether the 8-hour or the 12-hour roster is better one against the other?---You might have to break that up for me. I haven't had enough coffee this morning.
PN4399
No, perhaps I will approach it from this way. Perhaps I can deal with the family responsibilities point that you make. You would accept, wouldn't you, that an employee who is working afternoon shift might be available to family and partner in the morning when a person working a 12-hour shift may not be?---Depends how long they're commuting.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4400
Sure, I understand that there is a - it depends what other activities they have, it depends if they want to go and do some fitness work in the morning, it depends if they want to go shopping; I understand all the things that can take one away from a family, but bearing those things in mind you would accept that a person working afternoon shifts would be available to family and partner in the morning when a person working a 12-hour shift might not be?---No, not necessarily.
PN4401
You would accept, wouldn't you, that a person who comes home after a 12-hour shift might be tired and might be disinclined to participate in time with a family despite its availability because they have worked a 12-hour shift?---There would be a difference between a 12-hour day shift and a 12-hour night shift. I would accept after a 12-hour night shift they'd be very tired. Again, I'm not prepared to accept it as a blanket principle.
PN4402
I am only asking you as a possibility. I am not saying in all circumstances. I just want to point out the differences between the 12-hour roster and the 8-hour roster and to point out some benefits of the 8-hour roster?---Well, I wouldn't - yes, I wouldn't accept necessarily that people would be predisposed to mixing with their family after a 12-hour day shift. After a 12-hour night shift I would accept that.
PN4403
Yes, but you accept that someone who has worked 12 hours on a day shift might be disinclined to participate in family life that night because they are tired, because they worked 12 hours?---No.
PN4404
You don't accept that as a possibility, Ms Heiler?---Well, of course it's a possibility but not in every situation.
PN4405
Thank you, that is what my question was, whether or not it was a possibility. You would accept that some employees would prefer to work 12-hour rosters for factors unrelated to work?---Yes, I do accept that.
PN4406
Yes, for example, some of the employees who prefer to work 12-hour rosters might prefer to do so because they can - it provides them with the opportunity for secondary employment or the chance to pursue other interests?---Yes, I have to accept that.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4407
Do you accept that some of the issues surrounding the debate between 12-hour and 8-hour shifts concern not whether one roster as worked is better than the other but the change from one roster to another?---The issue of roster change is a significant one. There is no question about that.
PN4408
You would accept if one roster was safe and another - I withdraw that. Having regard to the rosters as they are set out rather than as worked I think you would accept that the old 12-hour roster required employees to be at work for six days a fortnight whereas the current roster requires them to be at work nine days in a fortnight; is that right?---I can't remember if that's the exact ratio. I'd have to accept what you're saying about that. I can't confirm it.
PN4409
All right, well perhaps I can - you can have a look at your statement where you refer to the roster of Mr Crick?---Yes.
PN4410
Which is at paragraph 70, R7 of your statement. Do you see that roster you have there?---Yes.
PN4411
I don't quite understand how you came to prepare this, Ms Heiler, so perhaps you can explain it to me. It purports to be a 6-week cycle for Mr Crick's roster prior to the change in October 2003 with the roster after the change in October 2003; is that right?---Yes, I used the data that Mr Crick had in his statement.
PN4412
Well, as I understand things it is a 6-week, 44-day roster that you have developed?---What I've tried to do is even it up as much as I can to get complete blocks in.
PN4413
I see. Perhaps I can give you Mr Crick's statement, which is I think exhibit CEPU8?---Thank you.
PN4414
Can you show me in relation to CEPU8 where you obtained the information about Mr Crick's roster?---What I tried to do is count up the number of days that Mr Crick said he worked and replicate that in a sequence.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4415
I take it you took the information from paragraph 6 of Mr Crick's statement?---I believe that I did. If that's all of his statement then that must have been where I got it from.
PN4416
Well, there is a couple of other exhibits that he tendered including CEPU10 and CEPU11. Perhaps I can show you those and you might - - -?---I'm pretty sure I would have followed that sequence. I hope I haven't made a mistake with it but if I did it would have been inadvertent. It looks as though I've gone three afternoons, two nights, three days off, two day shifts, two afternoons, two nights, three off. So that looks as though that's what I've done, I followed what Mr Crick said from 26 December through and as I said if I've inadvertently got one of the days wrong I would apologise.
PN4417
The graph in your statement says:
PN4418
Note: this does not include shift extension or overtime.
PN4419
I take it that that note applies to both the 12-hour roster and the 8-hour roster?---Well, I assume that. I used Mr Crick's statement and assumed that that's what the pattern was and I assumed that it didn't include shift extension or overtime on either roster.
PN4420
On either roster?---Yes.
PN4421
Because as you said yesterday it is very important to look at the way rosters are actually worked and compare rosters as actually worked and to compare a roster as actually worked with a roster as scheduled would be an unfair comparison, wouldn't it?---Yes, it would.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4422
You were given a range of other documents including Mr Nuttal's statement which had Mr Nuttal's 8-hour roster. You were also given CEPU20 which is a document tendered by Mr Bale. Do you recall why you didn't use those 8-hour rosters as the basis for your comparison?---I really can't tell you why. I didn't choose or not choose Mr Crick's roster for any particular reason. It might have been because of the way that Mr Crick outlined it so it made it easier to follow.
PN4423
I see?---I don't actually remember - I didn't look at all the different rosters. I just chose a roster.
PN4424
If you look at what Mr Crick says there in the third week at 12 January 2004. He says:
PN4425
Two night shifts, two afternoon shifts, one afternoon shift on after time, one recovery day.
PN4426
If I take you to your statement you have recorded that in a way that doesn't give - that does in fact record the overtime?---So I haven't put the overtime in there?
PN4427
No, you have?---Well, I apologise if I've done that.
PN4428
I will just - tell me if I am wrong - but on the table 1 at paragraph 79 of CEPU30 there is a reference to 8-hour shifts and you have got three afternoons, two nights, three days off, two days, two afternoons, two nights, three days off?---Yes.
PN4429
Then it comes to the week of 12 January?---Yes.
PN4430
You have got two nights which you have reflected accurately in paragraph 77?---Mm.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4431
And two afternoon shifts of which you have only recorded one and one recovery day and you haven't recorded an additional recovery day which Mr Crick worked on as overtime, have you?---No.
PN4432
So the note to table 1 is inaccurate in that the 12-hour roster does not include any shift extension of overtime but the 8-hour roster does; accept that?---If that's the one shift that I've included incorrectly then I stand corrected.
PN4433
Yes, and in fact you make some point about that exact week that you have recorded inaccurately in paragraph 81 of your statement. Do you see paragraph 81 where you say:
PN4434
The 8-hour roster pattern is highly changeable. Some of the shifts rotate forward; day, afternoon, afternoon to night, but in other parts of the roster they do not. For example, two nights followed by one afternoon, one day off and the five day relief shifts.
PN4435
?---That is definitely the offending section.
PN4436
Yes. Now, one of the other issues that you raise as I have just read to you as an issue about the changeability of the roster is the fact that people who work day relief shifts are often asked to move to other shifts; is that fair?---I've assumed that, yes.
PN4437
Did you ever ask Mr Crick or any of the witnesses whether they were asked to move and had the ability to say no to a move?---No, I didn't.
PN4438
Would it surprise you if in his evidence Mr Crick made it clear that he moved from day relief shift to other shifts by consent?---Would it surprise me?
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4439
Yes?---Not necessarily, no.
PN4440
Would it surprise you that Mr Crick said in his evidence that he liked to move an entire week of day relief shifts to afternoon:
PN4441
To allow me to spend the mornings with my kids.
PN4442
?---Would it surprise me?
PN4443
Yes, would it surprise me?---No, because people have different needs that - - -
PN4444
I thought it would surprise you given the difficulty I had extracting a concession from you not 10 minutes ago that it was a possibility that people would want to work afternoon shifts for the very reason that Mr Crick deposes to?---Well, no, I - excuse me, and with all due respect, I said that it would depend on the circumstances. I was not willing to accept it as a blanket statement under all conditions.
PN4445
Are you aware, Ms Heiler, that Mr Crick himself suggested to his team leader, Mr Rashwan, that day relief people should be given the opportunity to move to other shifts when they become available? If you are not aware of it, tell me you are not aware?---No, I'm not aware of that.
PN4446
Given what I have just told you about Mr Crick's desire to move to afternoon shift, his request to his team leader to allow him to move from day relief to afternoon shift, do you think your comment criticising a roster which has Mr Crick moving from day relief to afternoon shift is somewhat overstated?---I don't - I don't have all the information in front of me and I don't - I'm not prepared to say that because I don't have all the evidence in front of me so - - -
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4447
One of the things that I have noticed about reading the material on the subject seems to be that a comment from a variety of researchers is that one must look at a comparison between rosters after the initial implementation or bedding-down phase; do you think that is fair?---Yes, yes it is fair.
PN4448
I think in some of your papers - I can't recall exactly which ones - you make reference to a type of incidence that other researchers have made reference to, that is fatigue being a big issue or an important factor in significant industrial accidents including Piper Alpha, the Three Mile Island disaster, the crash of the Exxon Valdez. That is your evidence, that fatigue was a factor in those accidents?---Yes.
PN4449
Now, I just want to direct your attention to one other of your published papers, Ms Heiler. This one is published in the somewhat politically incorrect journal of the International Journal of Manpower. They published this in 1999. That is your article called The - or paper, called The Petty Pilfering of Minutes or What Has Happened to the Length of the Working Day in Australia?---Yes.
PN4450
And I think you start by referring to a quote from Karl Marx who was quoting a 19th century factory inspector and at page 279 you conclude that:
PN4451
It is seen that this longer work day is emerging in two key forms: the traditional 12-hour shift and the 12-hour plus span.
PN4452
And then you say at the very last statement, or the very last sentence, in your conclusion:
PN4453
The likely results -
PN4454
of the longer working day -
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4455
are increased fatigue and stress, further encroachment of work into a worker's family and social life and the further erosion of working time standards in this country.
PN4456
?---I did say that then, yes.
PN4457
Yes, I tender that.
PN4458
PN4459
THE COMMISSIONER: What was the date of this paper?
PN4460
MR WOOD: 1999, I think?---'98.
PN4461
THE COMMISSIONER: '98.
PN4462
MR WOOD: I beg your pardon. I am sorry about that, yes. I recorded it as '99. I apologise.
PN4463
Part C of your supplementary - sorry, amended supplementary statement, CEPU30 - sorry?
PN4464
THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, have you finished with those other exhibits that I handed to the witness?
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4465
MR WOOD: Yes, thank you.
PN4466
THE COMMISSIONER: I might get those back if you wouldn't mind, thank you. Thanks, Mr Wood.
PN4467
MR WOOD: You make reference to a paper called Shift Work Solutions which has been tendered as CEPU26?---Yes.
PN4468
And you don't know the author of this paper, Paula Mitchell, do you?---No, I don't.
PN4469
Haven't spoken to her?---No, no, I haven't.
PN4470
And you don't know the basis upon which she conducted the survey?---No.
PN4471
And you don't know over what period she conducted the survey?---No.
PN4472
And you don't know anything about the survey other than what you have read in the document?---Been provided with, yes.
PN4473
Yes. Similarly, in relation to Telstra's occupational health and safety record, you don't know what their policies on occupational health and safety are, do you?---I was provided with some material I believe so but in detail I'd have to say no.
PN4474
You don't know what the occupational health and safety record for the last year, say, was do you?---Not that I could recount here, no.
PN4475
You don't know what - how many provisional improvement notices, if any, were issued last year?---No, I don't.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4476
You don't know how many investigations were conducted by Comcare, if any, last year?---No.
PN4477
You don't know whether the occupational health and safety incident rate has risen or fallen last year, do you?---Not with respect to GOC, no.
PN4478
Or respect to the employer as a whole?---No.
PN4479
You are aware, aren't you, that prior to the change from 8-hour shifts to 12 - I withdraw that. Prior to the change from 12-hour shifts to 8-hour shifts at the Global Operations Centre there were a number of groups of people who were not working 12-hour shifts?---Yes, I believe that's the case.
PN4480
I understand you were given a lot of material to read, transcript, many witness statements, many exhibits, and you may not have had an opportunity to read all of them - no, I withdraw that. Just excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. There is nothing further in cross-examination, Commissioner.
PN4481
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Ms Bornstein?
PN4482
MS BORNSTEIN: Commissioner, I don't have the publications that were tendered.
PN4483
THE COMMISSIONER: Oh yes, I see.
PN4484
MR WOOD: I am sorry about that. I will - - -
PN4485
MS BORNSTEIN: That places me in somewhat of a difficulty.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4486
THE COMMISSIONER: No, no, we can adjourn for 15 minutes or do you want to recall for cross-examination and for re-examination?
PN4487
MS BORNSTEIN: No, I think it will probably be better if we continued and allowed this witness to be discharged.
PN4488
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN4489
MS BORNSTEIN: Can I be provided with copies of those publications and - - -
PN4490
THE COMMISSIONER: And you would like to have a glance at them?
PN4491
MS BORNSTEIN: I would, thank you.
PN4492
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN4493
MS BORNSTEIN: I will be as quick as I can.
PN4494
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, I will adjourn until quarter past, when we will check with you.
PN4495
MS BORNSTEIN: Thank you.
PN4496
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, let us adjourn.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.55am]
RESUMED [11.40am]
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER XN MR WOOD
PN4497
PN4498
MS BORNSTEIN: Thank you, Commissioner. I had to do a crash course in academic publications.
PN4499
Ms Heiler, you were asked by my learned friend at the outset about your training and the work that you performed. Can you tell the Commission what is the status of a senior research fellow?---Yes, usually within the academic system it's customary - because it's only one level below an associate professor - it's customary to be required to have a PhD to attain the level of senior research fellow but where you can demonstrate a breadth and depth of research experience, including peer-reviewed work, you can attain that position and that position is quite a detailed peer-review appointment system that happens within the university including an external academic who sits on a review panel and assesses qualifications and research expertise. So for most people who have attained that level at university they do have a PhD. I haven't in part because I've been so busy doing research work so the breadth of research was seen to be equivalent to someone who would typically hold a PhD.
PN4500
You were also asked about, if you like, the period of years over which your interest in extended hours was manifest. When would you first place - identify your interest in extended hours?---Well, I would go back to the period when I was a senior consultant setting up work-based childcare where we would typically look at the need for childcare against roster systems. Often the childcare centres that ended up being established were in 24-hour operations where shift work and balancing work and family was a critical point and then when I commenced at ACIRRT I was required to co-ordinate quite a large study that was funded by Worksafe Australia looking at the occupational health and safety implications of enterprise bargaining and of course one of the key issues that came through there was the changes to working hours allowed for - by enterprise bargaining. So it - - -
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4501
THE COMMISSIONER: Oh, I see. The effects of it, not the actual bargaining?---That's right, the effects of it. So the interest in working hours was already part of the consultancy work that I'd undertaken but then it really started in early '94 when I spent 18 months on the Worksafe-funded study and that was across a very wide range of different industries, retail, social services, manufacturing, and that included mining and so that was where my expertise in mining first commenced.
PN4502
MS BORNSTEIN: Can I ask that the witness be shown Telstra5? That is a publication edited by you titled 12 Hour Workday: Emerging Issues?---Yes.
PN4503
You wrote, did you, the article The 12 Hour Workday: What We Need to Know?---Yes, I did.
PN4504
In that publication. How would you describe in that publication in summary the focus of that paper, Ms Heiler?---Well, that paper arose out of a conference that I organised on the back of undertaking the Vickery evaluation which was the first big evaluation of 12 and 8-hour shifts, the Vickery Mine that was the subject of industrial disputation. That paper was an attempt to try to flag some of the emerging issues because 12-hour shifts were still reasonably new and somewhat contentious in those days so as with any emerging issue you try to bring together a range of different practitioners with different expertise to try to flag some of the issues that may have been of concern and that article was, I believe, based on some very preliminary analysis that I've undertaken both of AWIRS data, Australian workplace industrial relations survey data, as well as trying to just draw on some of the trends from emerging enterprise agreements. ACIRRT keeps quite a comprehensive database called ADAM, agreements database and monitor, that tracks trends in enterprise agreements. So the paper was very much designed to spark discussion. It was in the context of a conference that I had pulled together and you will see there that Price Waterhouse Coopers was involved in that conference and they had undertaken the productivity measures during that Vickery assessment. We had a couple of psychologists and people who were looking at our safety issues. So it was within the context of trying to put the emergence of 12-hour shifts in some kind of context. It was a very early paper. I think it was undertaken - I think the work was undertaken 12 even 18 months before it was published. It was designed as much academic work is to generate discussion, to give people an opportunity to put forward emerging trends, really to explore ideas. That's what working papers are.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4505
Can I ask you to turn to page 14 of that document?---Yes.
PN4506
And there is a heading there Issues That Need to be Kept in Mind When Considering Longer Shifts or Spans?---Mm.
PN4507
And you refer in three dot points to the issues to be kept in mind and in particular you refer to:
PN4508
Employers needing to be aware of potential liability and responsibilities to identify and eliminate hazards associated with unsafe work systems.
PN4509
And you refer to those as hours?---Mm.
PN4510
In light of that research and other research what mechanisms might eliminate hazards associated with unsafe work systems that is hours?---Well again, I guess what I would say to try to explain what I meant by that and really what I still mean by that - - -
PN4511
MR WOOD: Perhaps the witness can just be asked to answer the question, Commissioner, rather than - she was asked about methods that could be used to eliminate hazards and now she is answering a question about what she meant by the second dot point. Perhaps she could be directed to answer the question?---Yes. Well, what we understand by that is that mechanisms for eliminating hazards associated with unsafe work systems, ie hours, is that any potential hazards associated with the design of the roster and of course that particular paper was focusing to some extent on shift duration but it's not only shift duration so it's identifying any hazards that may arise from the design of the roster and with respect to fatigue that will be risks associated with recovery time, sequencing of shifts, pattern of rotation, direction of rotation, overtime and on-call practices, commuting practices, to make sure that insofar as practicable the roster is based on the best principles that we currently have to minimise fatigue and to maximise recovery. Moreover, there will be hazards associated with the
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
work environment so that rosters are not just designed in terms of the structure of the roster but in light of the workplace environment. So a roster that may be inappropriate in an underground mining environment may be something that's tolerated where the nature of the work is different. Similarly, the other kinds of hazards are exposure to environmental contaminants, heat, light, dust, noise, so there's a whole swag of different potential hazards that need to be taken into account and then the responsibility is to properly assess whether those hazards carry risks to a particular level which they need to be controlled, ideally eliminated or controlled, and if they can't be eliminated what controls can be put in place to minimise the risks to employees.
PN4512
You also referred to another paper. Can I ask that the witness be shown Telstra6? And it - you were referred to paragraph 2.2 on page 8, and there under 2.2 discuss the implications for occupational health and safety by reference in particular to 12-hour shifts. Given that you say that:
PN4513
There is clear evidence that night work, rotating shift work and long hours can affect employees' health and safety.
PN4514
What, in light of that, would be your conclusion about the desirability of 12-hour shifts as a general principle, if one can look at it as a general principle?---Yes. Well, I've been working with FIA, Commissioner, now for a very long time and the early concerns that we had about 12-hour shifts were in part because the research was poor so we were basing a lot of our concerns on some of the early research. I think that what I would conclude now, and again I'm open to change in light of new evidence, is that a well designed 12-hour rotating roster system can deliver benefits both for work and family and for occupational health and safety in terms of delivery. But I say that with regard to the fact that it has to be a well-designed system. Roster systems should not be extended by overtime because of the need for additional recovery on 12-hour shifts but in the mining industry 12-hour shifts are almost in every pit and so we've had a significant period of time now to understand how they operate and I've changed my view on them and I changed it some time ago that a well designed, 12-hour roster system compared to a poorly designed 8-hour rotating roster system where overtime is commonly worked is a superior system and that's a conclusion that I have held now for many, many years. Certainly it is not subject to this case and - - -
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4515
THE COMMISSIONER: But wouldn't that be true in any case? A well-designed whatever is preferable to a poorly-designed whatever?---Well, I think the thing about - yes, I think that's a fair point.
PN4516
Yes?---The thing about 8-hour rosters is that there's often overtime built into it so I guess the difference is that where you have 12-hour rosters that are worked as it's designed it can deliver real benefits.
PN4517
Yes.
PN4518
MS BORNSTEIN: You were also asked, Ms Heiler, by my learned friend of - it was put to you that you weren't aware of how the Commonwealth occupational health and safety legislation works and that you didn't have a good understanding of the Commonwealth Act and my note of your response is that you had read the Commonwealth Act for a number of reasons. What reasons were those?---Well, I was approached some time ago to - I occasionally do work on request for the MUA and probably about eight months ago I was - I had cause to review that legislation to understand which legislation applied to various different parts of the maritime industry if applicable. I also had to look at the Commonwealth legislation when we were determining exactly what legislation applied to the offshore oil and gas industry in Victoria and of course I've had a look at the legislation with respect to - sorry, I'm just being a little bit distracted here by - sorry - - -
PN4519
THE COMMISSIONER: Take your time?---Yes. I'll just go back.
PN4520
Yes?---When I reviewed that Commonwealth legislation it was for the purposes of determining which legislation applied to what sectors of the industry. I didn't say that it did apply. I said that I had to review it for the purposes of determining whether it did apply and of course I also had a look at it for the purposes of this case.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4521
MS BORNSTEIN: It was also suggested to you that under the - and I hope I have this down correctly and I am sure I will be corrected if I don't - that under the 12-hour roster arrangement the breaks between appearances were 12 hours as opposed to breaks of 16 hours under the 8-hour shift regime and it was suggested that there was, as a consequence, a greater recovery time. Are you able to comment on that difference in the context of the 12-hour shift system that was formerly worked with the GOC and the 8-hour shift system as you understand it now to be worked?---Well, what we understand about 12-hour shifts is that when you are working 12-hour shifts you need to take into account commuting time but there is a reduced period for recovery. There is, if it's worked as designed, 12 hours compared to 16. So the margins for error can be more delicate. What it means is that when you're working 12-hour shifts you have to make sure that you obtain the recovery, the sleep that you need on them, because there's less margin for error. In other words, when you're working those shifts there is reduced time for recovery and that's why we say that they shouldn't be extended by overtime and that the recovery days between the block of shifts should not be extended by overtime either. In other words that recovery on any shift system that includes night work or afternoon shift that eats into the main period of sleep they really ideally should not be extended by overtime and I think that is a view that we have now that we probably didn't have 10 years ago. With respect to comparison with an 8-hour roster I think it would be the same case, that recovery particularly on night work because that's where the greatest load for recovery is, also needs to be taken seriously. There is additional time for recovery but that of course all depends on whether or not those shifts are extended by overtime and how far people are commuting. So there's the issue of recovery every 24 hours which needs to be taken into account but there's the additional issue of the recovery, the discharge of sleep debt over that period, so a roster - the one that was worked at the GOC - two days, two nights, four off, is deemed to be best practice to avail shift roster. It really doesn't get any better than that, I think, because it minimises night work to no more than two in a row which means that people don't adjust. It's forward rotation and there's a generous block of time off between those shifts. So people can plan and predict their recovery. 8-hour roster rosters are often much more diverse. It depends on - the one that have seen examples of from the GOC includes both forward and backward rotation, the sequencing of shifts is variable over the block. It was difficult for me to say exactly whether the five relief days were afternoon or night shifts so it was difficult to ascertain but my conclusion, based on the assumptions I made in looking at the two rosters and how they worked, was that the 12-hour roster as designed was likely to deliver
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
more predictable timing for recovery, it was a roster that people were able to plan around. My conclusions about the examples of the 8-hour roster that I saw, because of the sequencing of the shifts, the changeable direction of the rosters from - some went from afternoon to night; some went from night to afternoon - that it was not in keeping with the principles of roster design that we now understand to be so important.
PN4522
You were asked some questions about the possibility of a person coming home after 12-hour shifts being tired and reluctant to participate in family life and you can see that that might be a possibility. Assuming that that - workers on the 8-hour shift regime experience fatigue, do you accept as a possibility that an 8-hour shift worker on return from a shift might be disinclined to participate in family life?---It all depends on - if you're looking at whether somebody's more or less likely to be fatigued the timing of the shift will be important, the length of the shift needs to be taken into account, but the amount of recovery and sleep time they've had in the preceding 24 and 48 hours will be important as well. So in a way it's a - not a difficult question but it's not as simple as that. The possibility is that somebody could come home after 12 hours feeling rested. There's also the possibility that someone who's worked their third or fourth 8-hour night shift will come home very fatigued. So it's partly a function of shift duration but it's not only a function of shift duration. It's the combination of factors that come into explaining it.
PN4523
You recall, Ms Heiler, that my learned friend referred you to I think it was paragraph 77 of your supplementary statement. Could I ask you to turn to that and as I recall you acknowledged that by reference to Mr Crick's statement that the comparison contrary to the note did include overtime?---Yes, there's one overtime shift included there that shouldn't have been.
PN4524
Yes, and on that basis as I recall you suggested that - and please correct me if I have misunderstood this - that the conclusion in paragraph 81 may not have been accurate?---With respect to the example that I give the two nights followed by one afternoon and one day off that - in that particular case the afternoon shift was not part of the rostered shift. It was an overtime shift, yes, and I apologise for that.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4525
Could I ask that the witness be shown PTM43, being the exhibit to Mr Malden's witness statement?
PN4526
That, as I understand it, is a roster pattern over six weeks produced as, if you like, a typical 8-hour roster week at the Global Operations Centre. Could I ask you to take a minute to look at that and when you have done so comment if you can on your conclusions in paragraph 81. You will note that there is no overtime or additional shifts?---Can I just get some clarification? You want me to comment on that, on the structure of that roster in light of - - -
PN4527
Of your conclusion in paragraph 81 under the heading of The Eight Hour Roster Pattern is Highly Changeable?---Well, I think that what that roster shows is that part of the roster sequencing has forward rotation. There is quite a long block, six blocks at the beginning of the roster followed by one, two, three, four recovery days. You can compare that to four blocks under the twelve followed by four recovery days. You will see as well that in the latter part of the roster we have what we call a reversely rotating roster where we work days and then go back to afternoons. On the basis of the roster itself what it would seem to me is that it would be somewhat problematic, for example, to schedule overtime on that roster. There is not too many periods there where you would be wanting to work additional shifts because they end with nights and afternoon shifts so it's difficult to work additional overtime after a couple of night shifts. My conclusion about that is that we have both afternoon shifts and night shifts which disrupts the circadian rhythms which disrupt sleep; there is not a whole lot of room to move on that roster in terms of extending by overtime; and it is very changeable. It is a rapidly rotating roster which are known to be difficult to recover from, especially where you have got three different kinds of shifts, and what we know and certainly what I know compared to the mining industry, if typically 8-hour shifts were worked as stable roster systems - in other words, they were either permanent day, permanent afternoon or permanent night. Now, they create their own peculiar - - -
PN4528
THE COMMISSIONER: What is the literature on that?---Well, yes, I mean, it was great if you were on day shift - - -
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4529
Is rotating preferred or permanent preferred - particularly permanent night shift, for example, is that a good way of working?---For some people, depending on their phase in life, there are always some creatures who will choose to work night shift.
PN4530
But on balance does the literature favour permanent night shifts or rotating shifts?---What it favours is if it is rotating it has to be stable and it has to be predictable and we need to minimise the night shift, that is really the most important thing.
PN4531
Yes, my understanding was the literature didn't favour permanent night shifts?---If it is rotating again it has to be - it has to be stable, so I guess it is looking at sharing the pain. When you have permanent shifts there are some people who are working permanent days and permanent nights and a third of the workforce who are working permanent night shift, so they are more affected than the other groups.
PN4532
Have you done any work on nurses working permanent night shift? You haven't done any research in that area?---No.
PN4533
No?---ACIRRT has but I haven't.
PN4534
Yes, do you know what the result was there, whether they found that a favourable working system?---Oh, no, I haven't, I can't comment on that. So that would be my conclusion, that it is quite a rapidly rotating roster, it includes more shifts that are disruptive of sleep, and that because of the sequencing of it it is going to be hard to schedule overtime on that shift. In the first block you wouldn't want to be extending by that overtime; the second block ends with the night shift as does the third and the fourth is a 5-shift sequence ending on afternoon shift. So it would be difficult to bring in people on relief on night-shift on that roster and you would need to break up the sequencing, you would need to ensure that there were days off before you brought them in even to cover on day shift. So - and of course it is changeable over the weekend as well where some weekends are nights and some are afternoons and some are days, but of course it depends where people are in their life cycle as well and their capacity to handle that degree of changeability.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4535
MS BORNSTEIN: Now, you were - a number of propositions were put to you on the basis of evidence it was said to have been given, in particular by Mr Crick and for the purposes of this I won't take you to the distinctions in that evidence, but assume, could you, that employees might be given a choice as to whether they accepted shift changes including additional overtime, including additional nights and afternoon shifts and assume that employees were given a choice as to whether they worked overtime and assume that they were also given a choice to take on extra shifts on their days off. Assume that those were choices. In light of your opinion in relation to the hazards of shift work and risk assessment what would you see the role of a responsible employer to be in circumstances, albeit where there is a choice, where there are gaps in shifts and requirements that those gaps be filled?---Well, it is a contentious area, the issue of employer choice. I know that some of the members in the mining division would choose to do a whole range of things if choice was the only factor governing what people did. There needs to be a balance between what people would choose to do, given - assuming that it is a genuine choice, and again what appears to be choice is not always choice. People agree to do things for a range of different reasons. There needs to be a balance between what people may choose to do because they want family time and what we know to be good rostering principles. So there needs to be a balance drawn between those two areas, just as the choice of any roster needs to take into account those factors. So some employees may choose because they have working partners to do a whole range of things but for which we know are probably not very good from a recovery perspective. So what an employer would need to do would - if there is no chance of changing a roster and the only option is for choice around overtime shifts my view that would be, (a), there needs to be consideration about whether that overtime is necessary, maybe I differ, I have great concerns about the extension of shifts and additional shifts on rosters, I think it needs to be handled very carefully. Secondly, I think that the need for family and work balance is an important issue but I think that that needs to be balanced against the design of the roster and where that overtime is falling. So I think that is what an employer needs to do, they need to balance those factors. The need for flexibility, the requirements and obligations under a duty of care and what we now know about roster design along with work and family considerations, and it is a difficult balance, it is a difficult balance, there is no question about that.
PN4536
Could I ask that the witness be shown - I think it is Telstra7?
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4537
That is the International Journal of Manpower?---I have to - - -
PN4538
As a matter of idle interest - - -?---I don't know if it was a journal, they asked me to submit a paper and I did, it wasn't a - I have to admit - I think that that - I believe it arose from an AAIRRAN's conference, the Australian Associated Industrial Relations Researchers. I believe they were there, they called for a - they had a number of different papers, I think from that conference, I think it was as simple as that. It was academics colour, a bit of colour and movement and light, you know. I once did a paper called Do We Need to Bring the Bundy Clock. You know, it's - - -
PN4539
Can I ask you to turn to page 279 and the conclusions in that paper? You refer there to the longer work day and its emergence in to key forms. I suppose, relevantly here, the traditional 12-hour shift, and you conclude that:
PN4540
The likely results are increased fatigue and stress, further encroachment of work into a worker's family and social life and the further erosion of working time standards in this country.
PN4541
Can you comment on that conclusion in the context of the choice, as it were, between a 12 and an 8-hour shift in the context of this case?---I am going back a little way. I think that I would say that I, as an academic, I still have that concern. The evidence is there that longer hours and that is not disputed information. From memory, some of the issues that I raised in that particular paper was that there were structured 12-hour shifts, the emergence of structured 12-hour shifts which were generally pretty well designed and were not extended by overtime and on the other hand there was an emergence of more open-ended working arrangements, including 12-hour - the capacity for 12-hour-spans-plus to be worked. And I think what I was concluding there was that at that time we didn't know what the results would be, that there appeared to be the emergence of what were deemed at that time to be non-standard working arrangements, extended shifts, some of them structured, some of them unstructured and that, depending on how they were designed and depending on how they were managed, that it may lead to an encroachment into family time and health and safety concerns and I still hold that view.
**** KATHRYN JOAN HEILER RXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4542
And my learned friend asked you a number of questions in relation to your knowledge of the Shift Work Solutions paper and it was clear from your responses that you weren't aware of the details of the background, why did you refer to that Shift Work Solutions paper in your supplementary statement?---Well, it was an example of - it was an example of an assessment that had been undertaken that demonstrated that 12-hour shifts - they had undertaken survey work, obviously - I am familiar with the work of Shift Work Solutions in general so they pretty much standard set of instruments that they employ when they do such assessments. They look at health and safety issues, work and family issues, productivity issues, cost issues, and it is pretty standard package of assessment tools, and I referred to it because it was an example of an assessment that was undertaken, an appropriate assessment of the roster system at the time that concluded that 12-hour shifts appeared to be appropriate within that environment and I called on it because in my view that kind of an assessment, whether or not it is exactly that kind of an assessment, would be entirely appropriate to have been undertaken with respect to a shift change - especially a shift change where people had been on the shifts for a considerable period of time and a change from a 12, a stable rotating pattern 12-hour roster, to a quickly changing 8-hour roster is a significant change and warrants assessment, careful assessment.
PN4543
Just pardon me one moment. That completes my re-examination, Commissioner, thank you.
PN4544
PN4545
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, you are on, I think, aren't you?
PN4546
MR WOOD: I think that is the union's case, yes, Commissioner.
PN4547
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that is the evidence?
PN4548
MS BORNSTEIN: That is the evidence, Commissioner. There are a couple of matters that I am not yet able to address and that is, firstly, the tender of that electronic data, and because my learned friend and I haven't had the time as yet to have further discussions on the survey material I am not in the position to make any application of submissions that might be necessary in that regard.
PN4549
We have made inquiries as - from Shiftwork Solutions as to the time-frame within which that study was conducted and I haven't also shown this yet to my learned friend. I - could I make a submission which, subject to any objections, I wish to support by tender of a document to the effect that the project was delivered from May 22nd to June 16th in the year 2000.
PN4550
The Commission will of course recall that there was some debate as to when that Shiftwork Solutions project was actually undertaken and I am able to tender correspondence that goes to that effect. Now, I wish to avoid calling, if I can, for reasons of practicality and cross Dr Mitchell to simply produce the Shiftwork Solutions document.
PN4551
MR WOOD: We have no objection to this being tendered, Commissioner, we won't require the witness to be called for cross-examination; it is consistent with what we have been told.
PN4552
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN4553
MS BORNSTEIN: I tender that, Commissioner. I am obliged to my learned friend.
PN4554
PN4555
MS BORNSTEIN: Commissioner, subject to those reservations in relation to other material, that does complete the evidence of the union. Could I also out of an abundance of caution say that I have been - we have been provided with additional witness statements; I haven't yet had the opportunity to read in any detail the last two. I don't anticipate we would seek to call evidence arising from those but as I have indicated out of an abundance of caution I wish to reserve my rights.
PN4556
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you. Now, Mr Wood, you can have a choice, if you want; we can adjourn until 2 o'clock or you can begin now for 15 minutes?
PN4557
MR WOOD: I don't - perhaps I might get some instructions, Commissioner? Commissioner, we are really in your hands, we are content to do a dive course.
PN4558
THE COMMISSIONER: Were you going to open and introduce your evidence or were you simply going to call your first witness?
PN4559
MR WOOD: I was just going to call Mr Malden, Commissioner.
PN4560
THE COMMISSIONER: Why don't we begin at 2 o'clock and then he can start afresh and go through?
PN4561
MR WOOD: Yes, very well.
PN4562
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.27pm]
RESUMED [2.04pm]
PN4563
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Wood?
PN4564
PN4565
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, please sit down, Mr Malden?---Thank you.
PN4566
MR WOOD: Mr Malden, can you tell the Commission your full name?---Peter Thomas Malden.
PN4567
And are you employed by Telstra?---I am.
PN4568
In what position are you so employed by Telstra?---I'm the general manager of the Customer Operations Group at the Global Operations Centre, Clayton.
PN4569
And for how long have you been employed by Telstra?---39-and-a-half years.
PN4570
And is your base of business at the Global Operations Centre Building 7, 770 Blackburn Road, Clayton?---It is.
PN4571
Mr Malden, I understand you have made a witness statement in these proceedings and it may be that witness statement that you have in front of you. You have made a witness statement in this proceeding, is that right?---I have made a statement.
PN4572
Before I take you to your statement I just want to ask you about some changes which have occurred since the time you made your statement and I want to do that in a way that is by reference to some documents that I have in front of me. I will hand you some slide packs which deal with some changes made to the broadband and IT area, and perhaps you can - and I will hand a copy to the Commissioner and to my learned friend. Mr Malden, do you have a 15-page summary of a slide presentation in front of you?---I do.
PN4573
Which is headed Broadband and IT Group June 2004?---Yes.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4574
Can you tell me - well, perhaps if you turn to the slide at page 7, can you tell me, tell the Commission the changes that have taken place at the Global Operations Centre as a result of the reorganisation referred to in this document in front of you?---The document outlines the Broadband and IT Group.
PN4575
Perhaps just tell me about the changes rather than the document, Mr Malden, just try to tell the Commission, doing the best you can, what the changes have been?
PN4576
THE COMMISSIONER: With reference to what?
PN4577
MR WOOD: Using the document as an aid, with reference to - - -
PN4578
THE COMMISSIONER: When the first statement was made?
PN4579
MR WOOD: The changes, yes, perhaps - quite right, Commissioner.
PN4580
Can you tell the Commission what changes have occurred within or to the Broadband and IT Group since your first statement was made - since your statement was made, I beg your pardon?---With reference to slide 7, the group has moved into what we call virtual teams in that the teams are aligned to product sets, and by that I mean the Big Pond Virtual Team, the IP or Internet Protocol Network Team, the Internal IT Network Team and the Hosting Team, and we have put a lot of emphasis on those particular products. We did not have that emphasis when I made my statement.
PN4581
Has anything changed in terms of the location of these teams or the reporting arrangements for these teams?---The location is exactly the same, they are in the same place in the hall, the only change is that Andrew Wenczel, listed there as the B and IT manager, now reports to Phil Davies and not myself.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4582
I tender the document.
PN4583
THE COMMISSIONER: You are tendering the smaller document?
PN4584
MR WOOD: Sorry, yes.
PN4585
PN4586
MR WOOD: I will hand you another print-out of a slide show and hand a copy to my learned friend as well. This one is called Network Operations Review Project Outcomes, an Update for Network Services People. Do you have that document in front of you, Mr Malden?---I do.
PN4587
And is it some 20 pages?---Twenty, yes.
PN4588
Can you tell the Commission whether this document sets out or represents changes which have occurred to the Global Operations Centre or the people in relation to whom you have management responsibility since the time you made your witness statement in this proceeding?---I can. The Network Services Group under the leadership of Michael Lawrey has been increased in size. We have had a considerable number of people, approximately 500, join and on slide number 5 you will see there that Customer Care and Service Solutions have joined the Network Operations Group under Michael Lawrey and all of the old areas of Network Services that was Michael Lawrey's are still with him. So the group has increased in size by some 500 people. At the same time, if we refer to slide number 6, I continue in the role of Customer Operations. In the middle of the
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
slide, myself, Customers Operations, Peter Malden, and we have had a new group called IP Services, and there it says "To be Advised" and that is Phil Davies, and that is the group to which Andrew Wenczel now belongs in the Broadband and IT Group. Likewise, a new group called Customer Fault Management, "To be Advised" that is now Phil Colenso and the Customer Fault Management Group within my team headed by Steve Dew is now in that particular group. So my group is diminished slightly in size.
PN4589
Diminished because you are no longer - you no longer have responsibility for the IP Services Group nor for the Customer Fault Management Group?---That is correct.
PN4590
I tender that document, Commissioner.
PN4591
PN4592
MR WOOD: I now want to hand you a rather - a much bulkier document on A3, Mr Malden, and a copy to the Commissioner with my learned friend. Mr Malden, I think you are aware that an exhibit has been tendered in these proceedings and marked Telstra 2 which sets out employees who were employed within the Global Operations Centre prior to 4 October 2003 and those employees who are now employed or were then employed when that - at the time that document, Telstra 2, was tendered; can you explain to the Commission what the document you have got in front of you, which runs to some 21 pages, represents? Perhaps confirm it does run to 21 pages?---Yes, 21 pages. I am sorry, are you asking me to compare this with the original exhibit?
PN4593
No, I am just asking you to tell the Commission, if you can, what this document purports to record?---It is a list of the people that are in Customer Operations, their revised team leaders - because a few of them have changed - and their managers and the other information that's in there it would appear to me to be a complete listing of all the people that were in my group at 30 June this year.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4594
And when you use the phrase Customer Operations or your group those are the same - you are referring to the same group of people as your group or Customer Operations?---The Broadband and IT and the Customer Fault Management people that have since left my group are listed in this listing so it is a complete list of all those people at 30 June that were in my team.
PN4595
Including the Broadband and IT Group and including the IP Services Group?---Yes.
PN4596
And are those people in Broadband and IT and IP Services still located within the Global Operations Centre?---Yes, they are.
PN4597
I tender the document.
PN4598
PN4599
MR WOOD: I think you have prepared, Mr Malden, a summary of the changes which have occurred within the Global Operations Centre or within Customer Services - you would be able tell me which one is the correct designation. I will hand a copy to you of the summary that you have had prepared and can you tell the Commission what this document represents?---I commissioned this summary of all the people in my group to indicate to the Commission that were on - - -
PN4600
When you say within your group, within Customer Operations?---Within Customer Operations, the original Customer Operations Group, who were on 12-hour shifts as at 5 October last year and the movements of those people into and out of the group.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4601
And you say the movements into and out of, as at what date, today or yesterday or last Friday or 30 June as in the last exhibit?---This is in effect 30 June.
PN4602
30 June?---2004.
PN4603
And what does the - can you explain what the various columns on the document represent?---In summary, on the left-hand side at the top, staff who have left Customer Operations in that time, 36; staff on the EA, 166; staff on AWAs 217, giving the total of 419. Underneath that is a group by what we call Organisation Code, and they are the groups there that my teams are split into and a summary of those that were on 12-hour and those that are on the EA and AWA, and the small chart at the top-right is a summary, making the split there of those that have left who were on 12 hours who have left Customer Ops, those that are still within Customer Ops that used to be on 12-hour and within the EA, those 12-hour in the EA with new roles - they have moved to new roles, and those in 12-hour on AWA and also those on 12-hour that were 12-hour on AWA and moved into new roles and we have summarised there that the figures all ended up with 419.
PN4604
I am a little bit confused about the groups within Customer Operations given the documents that have just been tendered, Mr Malden. You say this document is a summary as at - the number of staff within Customer Operations as at 30 June 2004?---Yes, that's correct.
PN4605
Can you explain why it is that the group Broadband and IT is included as is the group Customer Fault Management but IP Services is not included?---The Broadband and IT Group moved on 1 July into the new IP Services Group, in terms of moved in reporting lines but not location, and the Customer Fault Management moved into the new Customer Fault Management Group again on 1 July and stayed where they were - physically.
PN4606
I tender the document.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4607
PN4608
MR WOOD: I will hand you now a document, Mr Malden, which is in colour and deals with some evidence that you give in your witness statement. I will hand a copy to my learned friend and the Commission. This is a pie chart which you have prepared, Mr Malden, I understand. Can you explain to the Commission what the pie chart purports to show?---I commissioned this chart to indicate in a graphical sense the cost of running customer operations for the year 2003/2004 up to June 30, and what it basically shows is that salary and shift costs is the blue area with the other colours indicating overtime, contractor and agency payments, service contracts, our PC lease info-tech costs, travel and fares, training, motor vehicles and our other operating expenses.
PN4609
I tender the document.
PN4610
PN4611
MR WOOD: Can you - you do have your witness statement in front of you, Mr Malden, do you not?---I do.
PN4612
Can you turn to exhibit 4 of your witness statement. I understand - do you have exhibit 4?---I do.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4613
I understand that the exhibit that was provided to my learned friend and to the Commission is missing one page; I will hand you a copy of that page and you might be able to confirm that?---The page that you have handed me is the existing structure as at 30 June 2003 and was missing through this particular exhibit.
PN4614
And should it be the first page of exhibit 4 to your statement, Mr Malden?---It should be the first page.
PN4615
THE COMMISSIONER: So if I insert it just after the front cover, New Process and Structure Overview, and insert it just before the page headed Simplified Process, is that the - - -?---No, it should be inserted before the whole slide pack, Commissioner.
PN4616
Oh, I see?---My statement refers to the existing structure at that time and the slide pack for the new structure.
PN4617
I see, thank you. Thank you.
PN4618
MR WOOD: Mr Malden, I now want to take you to your statement. Your statement runs to some 27 pages and has some 47 exhibits; is that correct?---Yes, it is.
PN4619
And it is dated 21 April 2004, is that right?---Correct.
PN4620
Have you had a chance to read this statement and the exhibits prior to coming to give evidence in the Commission here today?---Yes, I have.
PN4621
And are there any changes apart from the ones that I have made by going through the documents that I have tendered through you or the changes to your exhibits to this statement that you would otherwise like to make?---None that I'm aware of, no.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4622
And is the statement true and accurate?---Yes.
PN4623
I tender the statement.
PN4624
PN4625
MR WOOD: One of the reasons that you give in your statement for embarking upon the change which you embarked upon during 2003 is the financial pressure or pressures that you were under, and you refer to that at paragraph 13 of your statement, Mr Malden. Just have a look at paragraph 13?---That's correct.
PN4626
We are now into the 2004/2005 financial year, has there been any changes or alterations to your budget for 2004-5 that you were unaware of at the time you made the statement 21 April 2004? Do you understand my question?---There are three changes to the budget. One is the removal of the Broadband IT Group, the other is removal of the Customer Fault Management Group, the third one is a 6 per cent productivity improvement again required this year. So in other words, I have a shortfall of some 6 per cent in the budget for this coming financial year that we are in right now.
PN4627
Have you tried to cope with a 6 per cent shortfall in your budged, Mr Malden, for this year, 2004-5?---I am sorry, could you ask the question again, pease?
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4628
What are the ways that you have or might consider - sorry, what are the methods - I withdraw that. What things might you do or have you done to cope with the 6 per cent shortfall in your budget for 2004-5?---I have set my management task - my management team the task of looking at how we could take on additional work with the same resources we have, and in fact do 6 per cent more work with the same budget that we have got. We have considered possible losses of some people in the form of redundancy and we have also considered every avenue of efficiency that we can make. We haven't made any conclusions at this point in time, we are in the investigative stage, looking at all the particular options.
PN4629
Were you able to deal with the budgetary shortfall for the financial year 2003-4 in a way that enabled you to avoid redundancies, Mr Malden?---For the budget of 3-4 I had to incur 10 redundancies but other than that we met for the budget at the end of the year.
PN4630
If you hadn't have made the changes that are the subject of this proceeding, ie, the roster changes, would there have been more redundancies in 2003-4 to meet the budgetary shortfall in that financial year?---Yes.
PN4631
Do you have any knowledge or estimate of how many more - even a rough estimate?---The initial budget shortfall showed some 40 people and the dollars converted into approximately 40 people and we actually ended up at the end of the year employing some 20 more people.
PN4632
Perhaps you can just explain that to me. You say that you made 10 people redundant but you hired some other people, did you?---We finished the year with a number of 426, we started the year with 402, and we also had 10 people leave.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4633
In your statement, Mr Malden, you make reference to the fact that you think that 12-hour shifts were unsustainable in the medium term, what can you say about the increase in pressure upon employees at the Global Operations Centre as a result of technological changes over the last few years, if anything?---When the GOC was first initiated five years ago we were basically telephone traffic switch group, we now have mobiles, the internet space, all of the new technologies that Telstra has moved into in the last five years, and the network is becoming increasingly complex. The traditional networks are now supplemented by computers, technology that connects the whole thing together and without it won't work and it is very complex in nature and finding faults and working out what's actually failed in the customer impact is far more complex than it was five years ago.
PN4634
In terms of - you say it is far more complex in terms of the types of technologies which your centre has to manage, what about from the perspective of your clients, what changes have occurred in terms of the way your clients work which impact upon the work and the pressure that the employees at the Global Operations Centre are exposed to?---The clients are demanding far more from us as an operations group, they are demanding quicker response times, more accurate diagnosis of customer impact, and they're actually seeking to know before customers know that the network has had an incident so that they can - - -
PN4635
I am sorry, you say before customers, whose customers?---Sorry, the external - Telstra's external - the public, our paying customers. They wish to know, our internal customers that deal with us, wish to know that an event is happening before the external customers know that they're having an event occurring so that they can better manage the customer service and better manage the customer's expectations.
PN4636
Perhaps dealing with those external customers, what changes have occurred in their businesses that may or may not have increased the demands and pressures upon employees at the Global Operations Centre - can you give any examples?---Some of the examples would be, like, Amway for instance, their whole business is built around doing all of their ordering from their agents on an internet-based system; if anything goes wrong with that system they cannot do any orders whatsoever for the whole of Australia, so it is paramount that we actually correct faults before they know that they've happened and keep their business going.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4637
Are there other examples of this type of pressure or demands imposed by external customers?---I could give you another example of a concrete firm that does their complete concrete ordering at 6 am in the morning, Eastern Time, for the whole of Australia, using an IT based system over Telstra's network, and it is crucial that that is kept up and running and they can do their business. Without it, all the concrete trucks around Australia stop.
PN4638
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want me to seal this transcript, do you?
PN4639
MR WOOD: I really might just put it in some concrete?---It was not my intention - the other one I could give you, if I may, is Qantas. Without the Qantas systems that we look after planes do not take off and that's money for Qantas.
PN4640
In terms of these examples that you have given, you say there are increased pressures and increased demands, are they reflected in your arrangements or contracts between Telstra and external clients?---They certainly are, yes.
PN4641
And can you give an example?---A number of our clients are seeking - or actually reduced in time-wise restoration of service; they admit that some things must go wrong at times, it's technology, and they're seeking things like two and four response and restore times, so that we actually see something, we fix it within that very short time-frame. The pressure is quite high in those particular services.
PN4642
When you say they are seeking it, is that what they have been promised contractually or otherwise by Telstra?---We are continually signing up new agreements in the light of those forms of agreements and time-frames, yes.
PN4643
You say in your witness statement, Mr Malden, that you have been involved - sorry, you have been employed by Telstra for 39 years?
PN4644
THE COMMISSIONER: And-a-half.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4645
MR WOOD: And-a-half?---Three quarters - it's three-quarters, actually, sorry.
PN4646
So 39-and-a-half, and looking at your CV most of that time has been in the technical side of Telstra, hasn't it?---The bulk of my career has been in the operations/technical side of the business, yes.
PN4647
Given that experience what do you say about the effect of those increased pressures by your internal and external clients upon the employees who work at the Global Operations Centre?---Considerably more pressure is placed on all of us from the management level down to the employees. One of the examples I could give is we are striving at the moment to have an incident occur and we actually tell our internal customers within 15 minutes of the exact customer impact and what's actually happened, and that's a very big change from where we were five years ago.
PN4648
One of the things that witnesses for the unions have commented upon is the change to the - what might be called the mid-level reporting structure within the Global Operations Centre which was a change that took place at the same time as the roster change; can you explain what changes in terms of the creation of new positions of process control leader, service continuity leader and team leader were introduced in around October of 2003 and why?---We were seeking to ensure that our leaders of the business were connected to the business are were aware of the pressures and the needs and the wants of our customers, so we created the team leader role as a day role, previously the team leaders were on shift with the people and they were somewhat disconnected from the business and they didn't see the pressures, they didn't always see the business day activities and not always at the GOC. So we created the team leader role such that they would be connected to our human resources people for support, connected to my management team for the business day activities, connected to their stakeholders in the other teams that we work with, and also connected to the platform operations or back of house as some people call it. So we try to connect them to the business and that's working very well. We put in place a service continuity leader, which is one person around the clock, 24 by 7, to be the last - or the final level of escalation or troubleshooting or to know everything that is going on in our business, someone that I could call or Mike Lawrey could call to know exactly what's happening in
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
the business to keep it going, a continuity person. The process control leader was put in place to oversee the process that we're running, such that they would catch any issue that had stalled on the conveyor belt of working - work going through the GOC - and to actually keep it along and to aid the teams that were trying to process the work.
PN4649
I think you said a team leader was a day role?---I did.
PN4650
What about the service continuity leader?---The service continuity leader is a shift, 24 by 7 role, there is always someone there with that title.
PN4651
I will hand you an advertisement for those and hand a copy to the Commission and a copy to my learned friend. This is an advertisement that you issued, Mr Malden, around August 2003 inviting people to apply for the one of five positions, as I understand it, as service continuity leader, to work on shifts, working an eight-hour-10-minute shift pattern, is that right?---That's correct, yes.
PN4652
And you received applications for these positions?---We did.
PN4653
And did you appoint five service continuity leaders on those conditions?---We did. I tender the document.
PN4654
PN4655
MR WOOD: And I understand - or perhaps I shouldn't lead. On what sort of working arrangements were the process control leaders engaged?---The same arrangements as for the service continuity leaders.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4656
You said a minute ago that the changes in respect of team leaders - in your words - are working well, what do you say about the changes in terms of the creation of the positions of service continuity leader and process control leader?---Working extremely well and I've had some very good feedback from my internal stakeholders within Telstra and people like Mr Lawrey on how well that actually is working and how well we are across our business and dealing with these issues that we need to deal with on a 24 by 7 basis.
PN4657
Mr Malden, you may not have gone through your exhibits to your statement and learned them off by heart, but as I understand things, those exhibits refer to a number of meetings in which you were present and Ms Beba Brunt, the HR - the relevant HR functionary at the Global Operations Centre was present, and of which she took notes; is that correct?---That's correct, yes.
PN4658
Have you had a chance to read those notes and refresh your memory prior to coming here to give evidence here today?---I have read through the notes, yes.
PN4659
Can you recall a period during the consultative process from 30 July through to about 24 September 2003 when you were asked by an employee at the Global Operations Centre or an official of the union to conduct an OH and S review or an assessment?---The request came from an individual in the roster working party through one of my managers to myself, yes.
PN4660
Can you recall who it came from?---To be honest, no, I can't.
PN4661
Can you recall what your response was?---My response was that we would not engage an external consultant or likewise because we were working 8-hour shifts already and we had three teams currently doing that. We had a very stable and safe workplace, and the literature that I was reviewing indicated that there were no significant risks and it was an industry and world-wide standard that we were looking at and I decided not to.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4662
Did you speak to anyone with occupational health and safety responsibilities or skills within Telstra?---I took advice from our health and safety consultant within Telstra and also from our human relations section.
PN4663
And dealing with the advice from the occupational health and safety section what were you told?---Basically told that I didn't need to complete that for the reasons I outlined previously and in their professional opinion that we were safe in going forward in what we were proposing.
PN4664
And I don't want to lead, Mr Malden, but did you receive similar advice from - I won't lead. What advice did you receive from human resources?---The same advices, that we were on steady, safe ground.
PN4665
I have indicated - I have asked you some questions about the possibilities of redundancies if you hadn't made the changes that you made in the financial year 2003-4, are there other - were there other dangers or risks associated with not making the changes that you made?---At that particular time - and it has continued somewhat in the last 12 months - we were under increasing pressure from senior management within Telstra who were constantly being bombarded with proposals from external companies, such as Alcatel, Ericsson, of the like to take over the functions of the GOC and run basically my team at a far reduced cost; and those proposals were being received on a regular basis and I was in constant discussion with my management team under Mr Lawrey on how we could negate those sort of proposals and keep the work inside Telstra.
PN4666
Do you have any idea of how much lower and - no, perhaps I - what do you say, if anything - you know Mr Cooper from the union who is sitting at the bar table, Mr Malden?---Yes, I do.
PN4667
And you had many meetings with him during the period 30 July to about 24 September and prior to 30 July 2003?---Len and I had many meetings, yes. Sorry, Mr Cooper and I.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4668
What do you - - -
PN4669
THE COMMISSIONER: After so many meetings you get on first name terms, no doubt.
PN4670
MR WOOD: What do you say about the attitude exhibited by Mr Cooper during your meetings with him in the period 30 July 2003 to late September 2003?
PN4671
MS BORNSTEIN: In what regard? To the football, the races, the weather?
PN4672
THE COMMISSIONER: It was a little broad, I think.
PN4673
MR WOOD: Yes, I will rephrase it, Commissioner. It is a difficulty with not trying to lead.
PN4674
THE COMMISSIONER: That is the skill of the lawyer.
PN4675
MR WOOD: What attitude did Mr Cooper exhibit towards your proposal to move from a 12-hour shift environment to an 8-hour shift environment at the Global Operations Centre in the meetings that he had with you in the period that I have just mentioned, Mr Malden?---Sorry, I am going to have to ask you to ask that question again.
PN4676
What attitudes did Mr Cooper exhibit to you during your discussions with him about the move from a 12-hour roster to an 8-hour roster for the employees at the Global Operations Centre?---If I've got that correctly, the initial attitude was one of we were both seeking a compromise and that moved to basically an attitude of it had to be 12 or nothing.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4677
What attempts have you made, if any, to accommodate the concerns of the union or concerns of employees in relation to the day to day operation of the 8-hour roster which is in operation at the Global Operations Centre?---In the number of meetings that myself, my managers and team leaders have had individually and in groups we have stressed to every employee that we have in our group to, if they have any concerns whatsoever with the way things are working out, that they should talk to their team leader and manager and resolve it, and we have had a number of instances where people have had changes, either car-pooling or changes to early start-late finish, etcetera, to allow them to look after family issues. We have had a number of people move on to day only roles and we've moved the roster from a 5-team roster to a 6-team roster to allow more weekends off in the six week cycle.
PN4678
Can you turn to exhibit 15 of your statement, Mr Malden?---So that was exhibit 15?
PN4679
Exhibit 15 to your statement there?---Marked PTM15?
PN4680
That is right?---Yes.
PN4681
Is that - are they notes of a meeting between you, Ms Brunt, Mr Cooper and Mr Kelvin Welbourn, dated 5 August 2003?---Yes, that's the notes of the meeting.
PN4682
Do you recall that meeting that you had?---I do recall that meeting.
PN4683
There is a reference four pages down about - from Mr Kelvin Welbourn saying a lot of people are going to resign over this, that is, the change from 12-hour to 8-hour rosters; has anyone resigned as a result of the changes?---In the period we have had one resignation and I cannot say it's because we moved from eight to twelve. The person concerned sort external employment to further his career outside Telstra.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4684
In paragraph 14 - sorry, paragraph 40 of your statement you refer to a meeting that you had with five employees after you called for submissions on 18 July 2003, can you recall who those employees were that you met with?---The employees were Ron Bell, Rick Klose, Craig Nuttal, Cameron Walker and Geoff Lovell.
PN4685
Do you remember whether or not you did meet with them?---I did meet with all of them and they presented their submissions to me.
PN4686
Was there anything significant in terms of the proposals they produced that you regarded as important?---There were no new ideas that came out of those proposals that I hadn't heard before or weren't a modification of something that we'd previously seen.
PN4687
Did you do anything with these rosters, take them away and analyse them, or did you just give them back?---I took all of them and in consultation with Paul Rewhorn and others in my management team looked at the pros and cons, we quickly costed a couple of them and studied them and put any ideas into the options package that we were looking for to go forward.
PN4688
Mr Craig Nuttal has come to give evidence, Mr Malden, and his statement was tendered in evidence as exhibit CEPU 28; I will hand you that, his statement, because attached to it is - - -
PN4689
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want me to hand down my copy?
PN4690
MR WOOD: I think we should have a copy for the witness, Commissioner.
PN4691
THE COMMISSIONER: You want to hand down CN1, the attachment, do you?
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4692
MR WOOD: Yes, yes, I do, yes.
PN4693
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN4694
MR WOOD: Thanks, Commissioner.
PN4695
That is an attachment to Mr Nuttal's statement which has been tendered in evidence, Mr Morgan, and can you see at the bottom of the document that has just been handed to you there is a reference to the benefits of Mr Nuttal's proposal over the current management's proposal and there are five benefits referred to. The first one is less hand-overs per day, what do you say about that?---There are less hand-overs per day. There is two on the proposed 12-hour roster and there's three on the current 8-hour-10 roster.
PN4696
He also says that there are no triple-up, double-up days; what do you say to that?---I agree with that statement.
PN4697
He says that there is extra coverage until 7 pm; what do you say to that?---Yes, there is extra coverage till 7 pm.
PN4698
And he says all shifts are the same length; what do you say about that?---All shifts are the same length.
PN4699
And he says there is improved contact with staff, see week 2 to 3 current roster up to eight days, no day-time contact and only minimal in week 4, so in effect 17 days consecutive with no meaningful contact with management, team leaders; what do you say about that?---I disagree with that - that particular claim to benefit.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4700
In what way?---I think the assumption there is that an afternoon shift is not meaningful contact with management and team leaders and I would debate that, I would say it is. A number of our team leaders come in for either an afternoon shift or stay back a little to make that contact meaningful and the count of 17 days I disagree with in terms of no meaningful contact because I would count the afternoon shifts in the week 4 and 5 as meaningful contact.
PN4701
In terms of your goals or criteria for making change one of them was - you have listed as the fact that 12-hour shifts are too long, there is a problem with mental commitment for that length of time; what do you say about Mr Nuttal's proposal in relation to that criteria?---It does not address that criteria because all the shifts are in fact 12 hours of length.
PN4702
You also make a point about the - you call it the granularity or the ability to match your workforce to the work flow, given the peaks and troughs in the work flow at the Global Operations Centre; what do you say about Mr Nuttal's proposal in relation to that criteria?---It still just gives me the two shift slots per day, not three as in the current rosters, which equates to 14 per week not 21 and it doesn't meet the criteria that I set for that particular criteria.
PN4703
Had you seen this roster proposed by Mr Nuttall or something like it during your consultative process?---It's very similar to rosters that were shown to me, yes.
PN4704
Perhaps, you might be able to hand that back to the Commissioner's associate, Mr Malden? Mr Nuttall refers to his roster as having less hand overs. Do you see having less hand overs as a problem?---No, in fact, in some instances I see it as a bonus.
PN4705
Why is that?---The number of times we've had issues that have not been picked up during a normal shift, they're actually picked up at hand-over time, a new crew coming in with a new fresh outlook. And having that happen three times a day can actually improve our business.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XN MR WOOD
PN4706
He says - Mr Nuttall makes reference to the fact that there are no triple up - double-up days on his roster. Do you see that as a benefit?---Whilst at first hand it would indicate perhaps more efficiency that people are actually on the job for longer, we are finding that the actual double-up day - as it is called - is a very valuable source of training and also getting extra effort into the work force and allowing a bit more flexibility and testing of systems, etcetera. And as long as that extra double-up day doesn't incur shift penalties, I see that it's actually turning into a bonus for us.
PN4707
Just excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. Nothing further in examination-in-chief, Commissioner.
PN4708
PN4709
MS BORNSTEIN: Pardon me, Commissioner, I just want to collate my papers into some sort of order.
PN4710
THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right.
PN4711
MS BORNSTEIN: Commissioner, I would appreciate if - that a number of documents have been tendered through this witness that I haven't had the opportunity to really consider or to obtain instructions on.
PN4712
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN4713
MS BORNSTEIN: I think it would be unlikely that the necessity would arise, but I would of course reserve my right to recall a witness if - in light of the tendering of that additional material.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4714
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, well it may be - depending how your questioning goes, you might have overnight to - - -
PN4715
MS BORNSTEIN: I may well.
PN4716
Mr Malden, could I just pick up on a question that my learned friend just asked you in relation to hand over and you indicated - as I recall your evidence - that in summary the more hand overs there were the better because issues could be picked up at hand over that might not for whatever reason be otherwise picked up. So you have more opportunity - do I understand your evidence - to pick up issues at hand - that might otherwise not be picked up through a hand over? Is that your evidence?---There's more opportunities for review of the outstanding workload.
PN4717
And the process control leaders, they play a role in that review of outstanding workload, don't they?---They do.
PN4718
Yes. What objective data is there which would - which measures the opportunity - if you like - to pick up issues at hand over? Comparing, for instance, two hand overs as against three?---I have no hard and fast data.
PN4719
You were referred to meetings with the five employees Bell, Klose, Nuttall, Walker, and Lovell. Do you recall that question?---Yes.
PN4720
And you were asked whether anything significant arose as a result of those proposals and you said there were no new ideas that hadn't been heard before and the proposals presented in fact no modifications. You - as I recall - said that you took the submissions, you consulted with Mr Dewhorn - Rewhorn, I am sorry - I am obliged - you costed a couple and did some comparisons. You in fact looked at them against a template, didn't you, Mr Malden?---I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4721
Did you - you examined those proposals by those employees against a template, didn't you?---If I understand the question correctly, Mr Rewhorn constructed a shift analysis template for me, yes.
PN4722
He constructed a shift analysis template?---Yes, he did.
PN4723
Have you a copy of that shift analysis template?---Not with me.
PN4724
I call for that to be produced.
PN4725
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Wood?
PN4726
MR WOOD: We will arrange to get it. I will try and find out when I get a chance to get some instructions, find out what it is.
PN4727
MS BORNSTEIN: Could I ask you, Mr Malden, to turn to exhibit 11 - to your witness statement? That is a customer operations update written by yourself. Is that correct?---That's number 60.
PN4728
Yes, 60. That was written by yourself? You are the author of that customer operations update, are you?---I'm the author of that statement.
PN4729
Yes. And you refer there at - about half-way down the page - in the paragraph commencing on the subject of shift alterations:
PN4730
That you reviewed the suggestions so far received and placed them into a standard template to allow for analysis.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4731
Is that the standard - is that the template to which you earlier - that you acknowledged existed?---Yes.
PN4732
Does that standard template - to the best of your recollection - rest on the criteria that was adopted and referred to in your witness statement, which at - being six criteria, you recall those at paragraphs 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, and 26? Do you recall whether that standard template relied on those criteria?---To the best of my knowledge, it did. But I would have to check that before I could answer irrevocably yes or no.
PN4733
At that time when you met with those employees, which was on 22 July 2003 and following, you had determined, had you not, that any roster to be worked at the global operations centre had to meet those criteria, hadn't you?---The criteria was set by them, yes.
PN4734
Yes. You were asked by my learned friend whether anyone had resigned as a result of the change and your response - as I recall - was there had been one resignation and that was not because of the shift change. Do you recall that evidence you gave?---Yes.
PN4735
There has however been a number of requests by staff to go off shift work, has there not, since the change?---Yes.
PN4736
Yes?---Yes.
PN4737
And the coverage required is - in operations is 24 hours a day, seven days a week, is it not, in relation to responding to alarms and monitoring and rectification?---Yes.
PN4738
And there would be a limit, would there not, to the numbers of requests that might be able to be accommodated by people asking to come off shift work?---Sorry, I'm - - -
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4739
There would be a limit to the number of requests by people - by staff to come off shift work that could be accommodated or agreed to?---Yes.
PN4740
Now, Mr Malden, you are an experienced manager, are you not?---Yes.
PN4741
And as an experienced manager, you would of course understand your obligations to comply with Telstra policy?---I do.
PN4742
Are you are aware of whether Telstra has a general health and safety policy?---We have a health and safety policy.
PN4743
Could I ask you to look at this document? I ask the witness be shown - - -?---Thank you.
PN4744
Have you seen that policy - that document before? First of all, could you look at it, Mr Malden? Have you seen that before?---I have seen that before.
PN4745
It appears to have been endorsed by the Chief Executive Officer and is current?---And this has been in issue since 4 July 2003 - it's current.
PN4746
But at least current to the 4th of the seventh, 2003?---Yes.
PN4747
MR WOOD: We would accept that it is current as of today's date, Commissioner, if that assists my learned friend?
PN4748
MS BORNSTEIN: I wish to ask some questions of the witness about this policy and I understand there is no objection to my tendering it.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4749
PN4750
MS BORNSTEIN: You would agree, would you not, that the policy commits Telstra to placing the health and safety and well being of employees ahead of protecting equipment and services?---It's the second point, yes.
PN4751
Yes. You would accept that the global operations centre provides a service, would you not, to customers - internal and external customers?---Yes.
PN4752
And you would accept, wouldn't you, that Telstra will encourage genuine participation by all employees and their representatives to share ownership and accountability for health and safety?---We do.
PN4753
And you would be committed, would you not, as a manager to the implementation of that element of the policy?---Yes.
PN4754
And you will note that Telstra will comply with the requirements of the Occupational Health and Safety Commonwealth Employment Act 1991. Are you with familiar with that legislation, Mr Malden?---Not entirely, no.
PN4755
Mr Malden, you have given evidence that on advice and on the basis of your own assessment that you didn't consider it necessary to conduct - I think it was - an assessment of the 12 hour shifts. Is that a fair summary?---Sorry?
PN4756
Of the 12 - of the move from the 12 to the eight-hour shifts?---I'm sorry, could you rephrase the question, please?
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4757
Yes. Your evidence is as I recall - and correct me if I am wrong - is that you didn't consider that - it necessary to engage, for instance, an external consultant because you were satisfied that there were no significant risks arising from the change from 12 to eight-hour shifts. That was your evidence, wasn't it?---Yes.
PN4758
And you said that your opinion was in fact supported on advice?---That's true, yes.
PN4759
You were aware at the time of the - when you were considering the change and at the time that a decision had been made - that you made the decision - that there had been an earlier assessment of shift operations at the global operations centre by Shiftwork Solutions, were you not?---Yes, I was aware of that.
PN4760
And that the - in summary - the conclusion of Shiftwork Solutions - and I am happy to show the witness the document if he feels that it is needed - was that 12 hour shifts at least when that - was that - assessment was conducted in the year 2000 was the appropriate shift duration at the global operations centre?
PN4761
MR WOOD: I don't think that is a fair description. I know Ms Heiler used the same description, but perhaps the witness can be shown the conclusions to the report?
PN4762
MS BORNSTEIN: Sure. Could I ask that the witness be shown CEPU 26?
PN4763
MR WOOD: We might be able to hand the witness a copy, Commissioner.
PN4764
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN4765
MS BORNSTEIN: I will withdraw that question, Commissioner, if I might? Could I ask the witness to turn to page 20? And you will see there, there is a conclusion as to how the implementation of the 12 hour shift system might be handled?---There's a conclusion.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4766
Could I ask you just to run your eye over paragraph 6 and in particular have a look at the fourth paragraph down? You would agree that says:
PN4767
From a health perspective, it appears that the types of tasks involved in work requirements at the Telstra global operations centre generally support the use of 12 hour shifts.
PN4768
See that?---I do.
PN4769
Yes. Now, you had seen that and were aware of that at the time that you were considering and decided to change from 12 to eight-hour shifts?---Sorry, could you repeat that?
PN4770
You were aware of that element of the conclusion at the time you were considering and decided to change from 12 to eight-hour shifts, were you not?---Yes, I was.
PN4771
You also received a consolidation of information mentioned in research papers on shift work prepared by a Siew-Lan Chan. Do you remember that?---Yes, I do.
PN4772
Could I ask the witness be shown this document? Before I take the witness to the document, could I indicate, Commissioner, this was produced on summons and my learned friend has quite reasonably not objected to tender. Might I tender it?
PN4773
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4774
MS BORNSTEIN: Could I ask you just to look at that document, without reading it in detail, Mr Malden? And it is fair to say, isn't it, that it summarises by reference to research the benefits and disadvantages and recommendations on an eight-hour shift arrangement and on a 12 hour shift arrangement?---It summarises for those documents, yes.
PN4775
It does identify, does it not, under an eight-hour shift arrangement matters including sleep disturbance, impact on social life, impact on domestic life, negative impact on work performance, negative impact on health, more appearances and concerns about health and safety? Do you see that at page 1?---It states that, yes.
PN4776
The effect of that document - I withdraw that. The disadvantages recited in that document flagged, do they not, matters that should be taken into account in a health and safety context in considering changes to shift rosters?---All of the matters should be taken into consideration and weighted against each other.
PN4777
You refused to retain an expert to consider the shift changes, didn't you?---I decided not to, yes.
PN4778
You conducted no survey of the employees, did you?---No, no survey.
PN4779
No survey in relation to their preferences?---No actual survey in relation to their preferences.
PN4780
No survey in relation to any concerns they might have had in relation to impact on domestic or social life?---Over that period and for some considerable time before - - -
PN4781
Could you answer my question, Mr Malden? My question is whether you conducted a survey of employees and perhaps I should qualify that by saying a formal survey of the responses to employees arising from a proposed change in relation to impact on social and domestic life?
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4782
MR WOOD: Well, perhaps the witness can be allowed to answer the question as asked? The question asked included both informal and formal surveys, and I rather understood the witness to be about to answer in relation to an informal survey.
PN4783
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it was requalified then. You want only formal surveys then?
PN4784
MS BORNSTEIN: Yes, I had qualified that, and of course my learned friend would know that he will get another go?---No formal survey.
PN4785
The conduct of risk assessments by way of audits are not uncommon at the global operations centre, are they?---I'm sorry - the risk assessments and audits are two separate things in my mind.
PN4786
They are? Could I ask the witness to be shown this document? Commissioner, this document was produced under summons in the category relating to risk assessments.
PN4787
PN4788
MS BORNSTEIN: No objection? I am very kind to my learned friend, I am very aware of his sensibilities, Commissioner.
PN4789
Could I ask you to look at that document? I don't want you to read it in detail. You will see that in the first page under Background it says this is a Telstra care audit. What is Telstra care?---Telstra care is the framework by which we work within to ensure that we have a healthy and safe workplace.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4790
And what do you understand the - an audit as a general principle to involve?---As a general principle, the audit - in this case, it's an external audit - is completed where we have a number of - and there were two in this case - external consultants come into the work group and over a period of two days - the 25th and 26th of February - they review the health and safety plan applicable to that particular group. They interview the manager, team leaders and a cross-section of the team members and conclude a rating for the health and safety plan activities for that particular group.
PN4791
And that involves - it appears - looking at a number of elements and identifying evidence relative - relevant to those elements that are listed at page 11 and following?---It does, but I think there's something missing from the report.
PN4792
I have relied on the respondent's production?---The original may well have been double-sided.
PN4793
Right. There is a page missing - it certainly appears that page 10 might be missing. How is an audit report different from a risk assessment, Mr Malden?---An audit report is an indicator of the overall health of the health and safety plan applicable to a unit. A risk assessment entails one particular aspect of the workplace that is in need of assessing the risks of that particular item.
PN4794
THE COMMISSIONER: Was this an important document for you other than by reference, because I think only every second page has been copied?
PN4795
MS BORNSTEIN: The only significance of it is that audit reports appear to be conducted in relation to health and safety.
PN4796
THE COMMISSIONER: Right. That is fine.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4797
MS BORNSTEIN: You would expect a risk assessment whether by an external consultant or an internal health and safety expert to have regard for the potential problems arising from any changes to shift arrangements, would you not? For instance, impact on domestic life, impact on performance, and so on?---I'm not sure I understand - - -
PN4798
You would expect a risk assessment of a proposed change to roster arrangements to have regard to the potential disadvantages that might accrue, would you not?
PN4799
MR WOOD: I object to that question, Commissioner, on the grounds of relevance. It is hypothetical. This witness has said that he didn't order one. One was requested and it was decided not to have one and he did so upon advice. He is now being asked hypothetical questions about something that he didn't do and that he was advised was unnecessary. Now, he is not an expert in the field of occupational health and safety or audits - safety audits or risk assessments. This sort of hypothetical question is really irrelevant to this witness' evidence, we would say.
PN4800
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bornstein?
PN4801
MS BORNSTEIN: I won't persist with that question. You are not a health and safety expert, are you, Mr Malden?---No.
PN4802
You don't purport to have expertise on matters like sleep disturbance arising from shift work, do you?---No.
PN4803
You don't purport to have expertise on the impact of social or domestic life arising from shift work or changes in shift work, do you?---No.
PN4804
You don't have - you don't purport to have expertise on the development of - on shift design aimed at overcoming some of the disadvantages that are set out by Ms Chan in the document she prepared, which you have a copy?---I'm not an expert.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4805
No. But notwithstanding that you lack expertise you drew the conclusion - albeit later confirmed - that no risk assessment was required, didn't you?---I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
PN4806
You have - notwithstanding your lack of expertise - you drew the conclusion that there was no significant risk and no assessment - risk assessment was required, didn't you?---Yes.
PN4807
THE COMMISSIONER: May I ask you, the conclusion that you drew, was that on advice or prior to advice?---On advice and following considerable reading myself of the material that was available and seeking advice from both HR and health and safety consultant within Telstra.
PN4808
MS BORNSTEIN: Who was the health and safety consultant that you consulted within Telstra?---Primarily, the questions were channelled through Michael Reilly.
PN4809
Who is Michael Reilly?---He is the network services health and safety consultant. One of two, health and safety consultants within network services.
PN4810
Were the communications in writing?---Not all of them that I recall.
PN4811
Were some of them in writing?---I'm sorry, I can't recall.
PN4812
Could I ask this witness to examine the files such as there might be and produce any communications relevant to the decision not to conduct a risk assessment?
PN4813
THE COMMISSIONER: Can you do that for me overnight?---Certainly.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4814
Thank you.
PN4815
MS BORNSTEIN: Now, what was the substance of your - you talk about a Mr Reilly - what is his position?---He's a health and safety consultant to Mike Lowry and network services.
PN4816
I see. What are his qualifications, do you know?---I'm not aware of his qualifications.
PN4817
What information was he provided with by you when you asked him for his opinion?---From - my recollection is that we outlined the possible changes. We indicated to him the literature that we had obtained from all the sources that we had and we asked him for his opinion.
PN4818
Did he have any discussions with employees - not management - but employees of the global operations centre prior to providing you with his opinion?---I don't know.
PN4819
Do you know whether he conducted any inspection of the work performed at the global operations centre prior to providing you with his opinion. That, I don't know.
PN4820
THE COMMISSIONER: Where is Mr Reilly located, physically?---At the GOC itself in building M5, which is the building adjacent to where my team is.
PN4821
MS BORNSTEIN: Are you aware of whether Mr Reilly has any particular experience or expertise in shift work and design of shift rosters?---I can't comment on that.
PN4822
THE COMMISSIONER: You don't know?---I don't know, sorry, don't know.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4823
MS BORNSTEIN: You have said that - Mr Malden, that one of the staff representatives on the working party made the request to management - management member passed to you - that an external consultant be obtained. That was not the only request made, was it?---I'm sorry, the only request - - -
PN4824
Yes, that wasn't the only request made for an assessment of the shift arrangements, was it?---I can't categorically say that there were no other requests, but I'm struggling to recall.
PN4825
Can you recall that you had meetings with the union in the month of August?---Yes.
PN4826
Would it surprise you that the notes of the meeting on 26 August note that Mr Cooper raised the issue of an independent expert? I will refer the witness - in his PTM 22 - that note recalled:
PN4827
That LC raised issue of independent expert to review current shift arrangement.
PN4828
Do you see that?---Sorry, I can't see that.
PN4829
It is - you have got Introduction - PM outlined current situation. Then LC - the fourth line down?---Yes, I have that.
PN4830
And your response was that you had reviewed all current material and found that no shift work is safe. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN4831
Did you say that it was found that no shift work was safe?---It's in the records, so I must have.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4832
If no shift work is safe, Mr Malden, you could hardly make an informed and prudent decision that no risk assessment was necessary, could you?---I'm sorry, could you repeat that?
PN4833
On the basis of your opinion that no shift work is safe, you could not make an informed and prudent, and indeed responsible decision that no risk assessment of the change to rosters was necessary, could you?---I think I could.
PN4834
I would like to take you to the question of the cost issue. Could I ask that the witness be shown Telstra 12?
PN4835
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course.
PN4836
MS BORNSTEIN: I am afraid I can't assist, Commissioner, I have only the one - - -
PN4837
THE COMMISSIONER: No, that is all right, that is all right. Good. Thank you.
PN4838
MS BORNSTEIN: Now, in that pie chart, you identify salary and associated costs by reference to the top box in blue. Is that right?---Yes.
PN4839
How much - what is the total operating costs of customer operations?
PN4840
MR WOOD: I have got instructions to object to that. Not on the grounds of relevance but merely that the transcript be marked as confidential in relation to this information, Commissioner.
PN4841
MS BORNSTEIN: No objection.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4842
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Well, we will go into transcript in confidence and will you advise me when you have finished asking questions in relation to finances. Do you want to close the Commission?
PN4843
MR WOOD: Commissioner, yes, I might just seek some instructions on that point as well.
PN4844
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well.
PN4845
MR WOOD: Can I be excused for one moment?
PN4846
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course.
PN4847
MR WOOD: Commissioner, we would ask that the Court be closed for the reception of this evidence, apart from - - -
PN4848
THE COMMISSIONER: Counsel and those instructing?
PN4849
MR WOOD: Counsel and those instructing. I haven't asked a specific question about Mr Cooper. I might do that. But the concern is related to some of the evidence that Mr Malden gave in his examination-in-chief about proposals that may have been received by persons higher up in Telstra.
PN4850
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN4851
MR WOOD: I might just get some instructions in relation to Mr Cooper as well.
PN4852
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course.
**** PETER THOMAS MALDEN XXN MS BORNSTEIN
PN4853
MS BORNSTEIN: There is no need. We are content - - -
PN4854
THE COMMISSIONER: He is prepared to stand outside, is he?
PN4855
MS BORNSTEIN: I think, yes, yes. I think he needs a cup of coffee.
PN4856
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, if those not directly at the bar table would be kind enough to leave, please and we will move into transcript-in-confidence.
CONTINUED IN TRANSCRIPT-IN-CONFIDENCE
ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 21 JULY 2004 [4.05PM]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
KATHRYN JOAN HEILER, ON FORMER OATH PN4303
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WOOD PN4303
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA5 WORKING PAPER 51 PN4331
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA6 PAPER PN4344
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA7 EXTRACT FROM PAPER PUBLISHED IN THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF MANPOWER PN4459
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BORNSTEIN PN4498
WITNESS WITHDREW PN4545
EXHIBIT #CEPU31 SHIFTWORK SOLUTIONS DOCUMENT PN4555
PETER THOMAS MALDEN, SWORN PN4565
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WOOD PN4565
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA8 DOCUMENT HEADED BROADBAND AND IT GROUP 2004 PN4586
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA9 DOCUMENT HEADED NETWORK OPERATIONS REVIEW PROJECT OUTCOMES PN4592
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA10 COMPLETE LIST OF ALL PEOPLE IN CUSTOMER OPERATIONS GROUP AS AT 30 JUNE 2004 PN4599
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA11 DETAILS OF PEOPLE IN ORIGINAL CUSTOMER OPERATIONS GROUP ON 12-HOUR SHIFTS AS AT 05/10/2003 AND THE MOVEMENTS OF
THOSE PEOPLE INTO AND OUT OF THE GROUP AS AT 30/06/2004 PN4608
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA12 PIE CHART SHOWING OPERATIONAL COSTS 2203/2004 FOR CUSTOMER OPERATIONS TO 30/06/2004 PN4611
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA13 WITNESS STATEMENT OF P.T. MALDEN PN4625
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA14 ADVERTISEMENT FOR FIVE POSITIONS AS CONTINUITY LEADERS PN4655
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BORNSTEIN PN4709
EXHIBIT #CEPU32 TELSTRA HEALTH AND SAFETY POLICY PN4750
EXHIBIT #CEPU33 RESEARCH PAPERS ON SHIFT WORK PREPARED BY SIEW-LAN CHAN PN4774
EXHIBIT #CEPU34 DOCUMENT TELSTRA CARE AUDIT, RELATING TO RISK ASSESSMENTS PN4788
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