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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT AUSTRALASIA PTY LTD
ABN 72 110 028 825
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 8169
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER GRAINGER
C2004/5401
C2004/5192
C2004/5193
C2004/5195
CONSTRUCTION, FORESTRY, MINING
AND ENERGY UNION
and
ACI TECHNICAL SERVICES PTY
LIMITED
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re right of entry to
Spotswood Plant
APPLICATION FOR REVOCATION BY
COMMISSION MEMBER OF ENTRY PERMIT
Application under section 285G of the Act
by ACI Technical Services Pty Limited to
revoke permits
APPLICATION FOR AN ORDER TO STOP
OR PREVENT INDUSTRIAL ACTION
Application under section 127(2) of the Act
by ACI Technical Services Pty Limited and
Others for an order to stop or prevent
industrial action
RESTRICTIONS IN TORT
Notice under section 166A of the Act
by ACI Technical Services Pty Limited
and Others re alleged industrial action
at the Spotswood site
MELBOURNE
10.15 AM, WEDNESDAY, 11 AUGUST 2004
Continued from 6.8.04
PN33
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. I will take Ms Oberdan's appearance first, thanks very much.
PN34
MS D. OBERDAN: I appear on behalf ACI Technical Services Pty Limited, Andreco Hurll Refractory Services Pty Limited, John Beaver Australia Pty Limited, O'Donnell Group from Victoria Pty Limited, with Fleetwood Industrial Services Pty Limited in respect of the section 166A and 127 applications. And ACI Technical Services Pty Limited in respect of section 285A application.
PN35
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. And what about in respect of the section 99, the union's section 99?
PN36
MS OBERDAN: All of the applicants - in the respondent group.
PN37
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Are you seeking leave?
PN38
MS OBERDAN: I understand that Ms Zeitz sought leave in the first instance.
PN39
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes.
PN40
MS OBERDAN: So I wasn't sure whether or not that that would be a formality that I again - - -
PN41
THE COMMISSIONER: No, you should - no, you will need to seek leave yourself.
PN42
MS OBERDAN: I seek leave.
PN43
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks very much. Yes. Gentlemen of the unions, who would like to - Mr Maddison, you will need to enter an appearance in any event.
PN44
MR J. MADDISON: Yes, I notify the Commission of a change of appearance for the CFMEU.
PN45
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN46
MR MADDISON: I now appear for the CFMEU. With me is MR F. O'GRADY, and MR P. PRESTON.
PN47
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Do you have any objection to my granting Ms Oberdan leave?
PN48
MR MADDISON: No, we don't, Commissioner.
PN49
THE COMMISSIONER: No. Thank you. Mr Cooney, do you have any objection to my granting Ms Oberdan leave?
PN50
MR J. COONEY: No, Commissioner.
PN51
THE COMMISSIONER: And is there anybody else from the union? No, no, I think, Mr Cooney - or Mr Coffey, you need to as well.
PN52
MR P. COFFEY: Yes. Commissioner, I also have to apologise for Mr P. McCrudden. He is a bit sick today, so I will be representing, if we need to, thanks.
PN53
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right, I hope he will be better soon. Yes, thanks very much. You have got no objection to leave being - - -
PN54
MR COFFEY: No.
PN55
THE COMMISSIONER: No. Thanks very much, Ms Oberdan, I am happy to grant you leave. I think the most sensible thing for me to do first is to hear from Ms Oberdan about the section 127 and 166A application, and we will take the thing from there. I think what I will do is, I will deal with that first. I will then move over to the union to deal with the section 99, and then I will come back to the company in respect of the section 285 matter. So Ms Oberdan, the 127 and 166A.
PN56
MS OBERDAN: Commissioner, as I understand, on Friday the industrial action stopped, and since then there has been no stoppages since then.
PN57
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN58
MS OBERDAN: Accordingly, we are not wanting to proceed at this stage with these applications.
PN59
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN60
MS OBERDAN: As we don't want to waste the Commission's time. However, we would like to adjourn those applications generally and also have leave to bring them on at short notice if necessary.
PN61
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, well, I will hear from the union with regard to that, but I would wonder where it would leave you in particular with regard to the 166A. But that is a matter that could be confronted at such time in the future as - - -
PN62
MS OBERDAN: Yes.
PN63
THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, I don't know that the 166A would have any status over issues about when the clock stopped and when it is started. You would probably be much, much better to withdraw the 166A and lodge a fresh one, at an appropriate moment. But that is up to you. I will hear from the unions. Thanks very much. Yes, Mr Maddison.
PN64
MR MADDISON: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, we don't oppose what is being put by the applicants in those matters, although we do hear what you have said in relation to those, Commissioner, and I suppose we will deal with them when and if the need arises in the future about - - -
PN65
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. You can make the appropriate argument at the time.
PN66
MR MADDISON: Yes, rather than doing any of those now. We just simply state for the record we don't - we deny all allegations of any conduct.
PN67
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN68
MR MADDISON: But again that is a matter for hearing.
PN69
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Indeed.
PN70
MR MADDISON: And witness evidence if the need arises in the future.
PN71
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right, thank you. Mr cooney.
PN72
MR COONEY: We are happy to proceed with that course, Commissioner.
PN73
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks. Mr Coffey?
PN74
MR COFFEY: Yes.
PN75
THE COMMISSIONER: Ye,s all right, fine, thanks very much. Then I adjourn the company's 127 application and seeking of the order under section 166A in matters C2004/5195 and C2004/5193. They are adjourned sine die, to use that lovely pronunciation. And now I might come over to you, Mr Maddison, in respect of the union's section 99 application in matter C2004/5401.
PN76
MR MADDISON: Thank you, Commissioner. Just before I go to that there is what may be said a related matter. That is the permit revocation matter.
PN77
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN78
MR MADDISON: Some brief discussions with Ms Oberdan, who informed me this morning that her instructions are to proceed - - -
PN79
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN80
MR MADDISON: - - - with those applications, and seek timetabling of those matters.
PN81
THE COMMISSIONER: That is right. Well, that is why I am coming back to the company with regard to that.
PN82
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN83
THE COMMISSIONER: But I wanted to hear what the union had to say about its section 99 in the first instance.
PN84
MR MADDISON: We say that there has been some correspondence which, I think, the Commission should have received, at least according to the face of the correspondence.
PN85
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't have - sorry.
PN86
MS OBERDAN: I can hand the Commission a copy of what is our correspondence.
PN87
THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps if they could be tendered.
PN88
MR MADDISON: Ms Oberdan is just so kind.
PN89
THE COMMISSIONER: I think - I might actually - I will receive them in the section - I am just wondering which file is best to mark them as exhibits in? Probably 285, probably the section 285. No, I will mark them in your section 99 actually, I think.
PN90
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN91
THE COMMISSIONER: I have got here the - well, I have got a CEPU letter from Mr Cooney to ACI.
PN92
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN93
THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any other correspondence?
PN94
MR MADDISON: There is a response that is addressed to Justin Cooney - - -
PN95
THE COMMISSIONER: I have got a response to Mr Cooney.
PN96
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN97
THE COMMISSIONER: Is that all there is?
PN98
MR MADDISON: That is what I was going to refer the Commission to in the first instance, Commissioner.
PN99
PN100
PN101
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks.
PN102
MR MADDISON: Commissioner, I presume that they have just been handed up. You haven't had an opportunity to read them.
PN103
THE COMMISSIONER: I will have a quick look at them, it won't take me long.
PN104
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN105
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I see, it is 24 hours, as opposed to 15 minutes, basically.
PN106
MR MADDISON: Yes, and Commissioner, it appears that, without being critical of any of the authors that the correspondence has appeared to be - have been written in response to the recommendation that came out of Friday's hearing. And - - -
PN107
THE COMMISSIONER: I had expected a fuller more comprehensive statement.
PN108
MR MADDISON: I must say, Commissioner, when I read the recommendation I thought there might be a little bit more to the correspondence.
PN109
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. I understood there are issues to do with provisions, right of entry provisions under particular agreements, and the like.
PN110
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN111
THE COMMISSIONER: So I am not quite sure that we have actually reached the end of the story with regard to this.
PN112
MR MADDISON: I don't think we quite have, Commissioner.
PN113
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes.
PN114
MR MADDISON: In respect to the union's position that has been put by Mr Cooney, the extent of that correspondence appears to be referring to the site agreement, or the ACI agreement that is - that has been certified by the Commission in respect to the refurbishment turn around project. And in that agreement, there is a right of entry provision.
PN115
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN116
MR MADDISON: I am not sure if the Commission has a copy of the agreement. There is agreement - - -
PN117
THE COMMISSIONER: This is - what I - I have got an agreement certified by Commissioner Blair on 29 June 2004.
PN118
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN119
THE COMMISSIONER: Is that the one?
PN120
MR MADDISON: Yes, that is the one, Commissioner. And, Commissioner, I would just indicate that other than that agreement with ACI, the relevant sub-contractors engaged in the project that Ms Oberdan represents, have agreements in very similar terms and I am instructed the right of entry provision is identical. Commissioner, I am not sure page it is on, but clause 15, you will find the right of entry provision in the ACI agreement.
PN121
THE COMMISSIONER: The one by Commissioner Blair is at clause 14, has got the right of entry provision.
PN122
MR MADDISON: Yes, okay.
PN123
THE COMMISSIONER: Which says:
PN124
The usual courtesy shall be extended to union organisers who wish to enter the site or interview employees in connection with union business subject to prior notification to the nominated ACI...
PN125
Which I heard some discussion about over the last week. You say there is another one in another agreement, is there?
PN126
MR MADDISON: Yes. Well, the sub-contractors that relevantly the CFMEU have agreements to with - they are underpinning certified agreements - - -
PN127
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN128
MR MADDISON: - - - that apply not just at this site.
PN129
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN130
MR MADDISON: But at other sites.
PN131
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN132
MR MADDISON: The ACI agreement makes reference to that with the standard kind of clause. It says:
PN133
That this agreement will operate in conjunction with the contractors and sub-contractors certified agreements. And where there is an inconsistency between the terms of this agreement and the pre-existing agreement, the superior conditions will apply.
PN134
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN135
MR MADDISON: Commissioner, I think you have been referred to in other matters that the - what we refer to as the CFMEU pattern agreement, has a provision dealing with right of entry, which allows, in our submission, or a little bit different to the ACI, but no notice is required, and you are once you access a site, or a project, that you are able to check, not only wages and award conditions but safety conditions operating at the site.
PN136
Now, we would say - I don't want to go into it in great detail, Commissioner, but just to indicate, and we would say that there is no inconsistency between the two provisions. They can act both simultaneously without you breaching either. Commissioner, with respect to the legislation, there are provisions in the Workplace Relations Act found at sections 285A and division 11A, Part IX of the Act through to 285G, which includes the permit revocation provision that Ms Oberdan seeks to agitate.
PN137
Those provisions, we say, operate separately and distinctly to the right of entry provisions in the agreements, and the unions, certainly from our perspective, are well aware of the rights and obligations under those provisions and when we seek to exercise we do act in accordance with it.
PN138
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. Mr Maddison, I am just wondering whether - to start off with, the heat of late last week appears to have settled down somewhat. And there has been no further outbreak of acrimony after the anxiety about the asbestos issue last week. I am actually wondering - I note your comment about how complete a statement these letters appear to be. Given that the union has now got a reply from the company, I am actually wondering - I mean, I am happy for you to outline all of that here, but I am actually wondering whether the appropriate next step isn't now for a fuller reply to go from the union to the company that really takes it the next step further, draws in the provisions - relates the provisions of the agreements, and in particular that very important wording, which I just read out, about - from the Andreco Hurll Agreement, AG835160, which says:
PN139
That the usual courtesy shall be extended to union organisers who wish to enter the site or interview employees in connection with union business subject to prior notification of the nominated ACI project manager, or appointed representative.
PN140
Because there clearly is a whole discussion to be had about what the usual courtesies are, and about the issue of how much notification is adequate in compliance with the prior notification, given the history of the matter, and the history of the matters. What is your thought about that?
PN141
MR MADDISON: Certainly, Commissioner, happy to do that, and I suppose what I am seeking to do now is to outline that more fully, both to yourself and to the company.
PN142
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN143
MR MADDISON: The issue that concerns us and why - and although it may not seem as pressing today as it was towards the end of last week - - -
PN144
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN145
MR MADDISON: But our concern is that the right of entry - the requirement - or the company's requirement of 24 hours notice only seems to crop up when there is a very pressing need to enter the site.
PN146
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes.
PN147
MR MADDISON: And obviously - and recently the press have talked about asbestos in respect to James Hardie - - -
PN148
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN149
MR MADDISON: But it is something which is - does touch very sensitive nerves amongst the membership.
PN150
THE COMMISSIONER: Look, I understand that. I made clear last week my understanding of what an emotive issue this actually is.
PN151
MR MADDISON: Yes. So we would really like to see how far we can go sooner rather than later.
PN152
THE COMMISSIONER: Indeed.
PN153
MR MADDISON: And as we have indicated, we are certainly happy to send more fuller correspondence setting out the relevant and various agreements and statutes that operate in respect of right of entry specifically.
PN154
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right.
PN155
MR MADDISON: But we do see it - it is a pressing matter. And - - -
PN156
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes.
PN157
MR MADDISON: But we understand that there is still some asbestos on the site. There is some clean up to happen on Sunday.
PN158
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN159
MR MADDISON: So it is not as if even that issue itself has been fully resolved.
PN160
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN161
MR MADDISON: And it may be that we would seek to rely upon the agreements that we say requires prior notice - - -
PN162
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes.
PN163
MR MADDISON: And, prior, doesn't read, 24 - at least - hours - at least in my dictionary.
PN164
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN165
MR MADDISON: And we would like to have at least some understanding, and maybe at least an interim understanding while further discussions are going on. And certainly the other point I would make, Commissioner, that in the past there has never been a requirement for 24 hours notice at the site. I certainly perhaps, happily or unfortunately, were involved in the negotiations that led to this agreement. The company never raised it during those negotiations that there would be a requirement now, there is a change from the past, for 24 hours notice.
PN166
It certainly would have been an issue from our perspective. So we certainly proceeded on the basis that the usual courtesies and prior notice does not mean that the Workplace Relations Act requirements of 24 hours' notice prior to accessing the site.
PN167
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN168
MR MADDISON: And certainly the union officials who attend the site have never sought to exercise those rights at that workplace.
PN169
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN170
MR MADDISON: And has always sought to rely upon the agreement operating.
PN171
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right.
PN172
MR MADDISON: And perhaps it is something perhaps we can - in conference. The only other point I was going to make, and I think there was a correspondence from Mr Wainwright sent to Mr Minnetti from ACI on 5 August, which should have been, at least according to my file, attached to the section 99 notification.
PN173
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I have got that document. Perhaps if you would like to formally tender it, I will actually give it an exhibit number.
PN174
MR MADDISON: It is the letter dated 5 August 2004.
PN175
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right.
PN176
MR MADDISON: I did provide Ms Oberdan a copy of that earlier today, Commissioner.
PN177
PN178
MR MADDISON: I just draw that to the Commission's attention because it does refer to section 32, the Occupational Health and Safety Act 1985 victoria.
PN179
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, well, you see, Mr Preston made this point last week - - -
PN180
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN181
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - that there are other rights of entry that arise. That is why, to be frank, I was expecting a fuller outline.
PN182
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN183
THE COMMISSIONER: And that is why I feel really now it would be beneficial if the unions could cooperate on a further response to the - I am not wanting to draw it out, but I actually believe it will be helpful if everybody focusses on crystallising exactly what are the rights that actually exist under the various agreements and items of legislation, and that then leaves the issue of the usual courtesies and prior notification as terms of some flexibility or terms capable of differing interpretations. But at the very least, one would have thought they have to be interpreted in the light of the agreements and the legislation. And the view is that there is a wider - the view has been put by the unions that there are more pieces of legislation in the Workplace Relations Act involved in this specific issue.
PN184
MR MADDISON: Yes. Yes.
PN185
THE COMMISSIONER: What I would like to suggest is that that further exchange of correspondence take place and that I actually set this down for report back for Wednesday of next week, for report back and possible conference to discuss the - I mean if it needs to come on sooner than that, so be it. But I would prefer for it not to do so. I would prefer that a commonsense approach be taken by parties on both sides that reflects practicalities and realities of the situation at the site. But that if the unions could again write and further outline - further draw together those various provisions. They have been stated in various pieces of correspondence.
PN186
MR MADDISON: Yes, yes.
PN187
THE COMMISSIONER: And if the company could further consider its response, then we could meet again next Wednesday, and I could actually hold - I don't want to make it a compulsory conference. It doesn't need to be a compulsory conference, because the parties are all happy to be here. But I could then assist the parties in conference.
PN188
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN189
THE COMMISSIONER: I can do so today as well, but I just have a feeling that there is a need to sharpen the focus on what the rights are.
PN190
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN191
THE COMMISSIONER: Also I am not sure, Ms Oberdan, do you have a representative from the company with you at the moment?
PN192
MS OBERDAN: No, Commissioner, we don't.
PN193
THE COMMISSIONER: No. No. So Ms Oberdan really hasn't got instructors here.
PN194
MR MADDISON: I mean, we hear what you say, Commissioner, and we will do that.
PN195
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes.
PN196
MR MADDISON: And we will provide the correspondence and at least Ms Oberdan now has the further benefit of our position.
PN197
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes.
PN198
MR MADDISON: But we will formally put that.
PN199
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN200
MR MADDISON: To the company through Ms Oberdan.
PN201
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN202
MR MADDISON: And get a response. And obviously there can be discussions between the parties directly prior to next Wednesday as well.
PN203
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN204
MR MADDISON: But I apprehend that there may still need to be the hearing next Wednesday.
PN205
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, so do I. So do I, but I would like the parties to have a much sharper focus on the actual rights that are claimed under various provisions of legislation and agreements.
PN206
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN207
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right. Wednesday is okay with you. Would Wednesday afternoon be all right?
PN208
MR MADDISON: That is convenient for me, Commissioner. I will just check my - - -
PN209
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Cooney, is that all right with you?
PN210
MR COONEY: Yes, Commissioner.
PN211
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Coffey, is that all right with you?
PN212
MR COFFEY: Yes, Commissioner.
PN213
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks very much. Ms Oberdan, what are your thoughts on that?
PN214
MS OBERDAN: I would agree with the Commission's course.
PN215
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right.
PN216
MS OBERDAN: Wednesday afternoon is fine.
PN217
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, then what will then occur is that perhaps by Friday the unions should put a more detailed letter to Ms Oberdan further outlining and drawing together the various threads of correspondence that actually exist - that hone in on the specifics of the asbestos situation, and the legislation that applies. The stuff that has been raised by Mr Preston last week. Together with the various other provisions. Outlines really, I think, the unions assertions and claims with regard to the history, the prior history, that might be relevant to the way in which those terms in the agreement are understood.
PN218
And then if the union could provide - sorry - if the company could provide a written response by close of business on Tuesday, that would then enable us to have a sharp focus on the matter in terms of the report back next Wednesday at 2.00, and a conference which I will chair, to discuss the matters further.
PN219
MR MADDISON: Yes. And I would presume, Commissioner, given the exchange between yourself and Ms Oberdan, that the appropriate company representative or representatives will be here next Wednesday.
PN220
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, yes, we would need to have somebody from the company who can constructively participate in that discussion.
PN221
MR MADDISON: Commissioner, I am just getting some instructions.
PN222
THE COMMISSIONER: Indeed, that is fine.
PN223
MR MADDISON: I - the proposal for next Wednesday, and the correspondence, we will certainly comply with that. We will also just indicate that - and we are not making any concessions that 24 hours' notice is required.
PN224
THE COMMISSIONER: I understand that.
PN225
MR MADDISON: But I suppose - - -
PN226
THE COMMISSIONER: I understand that. And, Ms Oberdan, I am asking for a commonsense approach to be taken at the site that reflects the realities of what actually occurs.
PN227
MR MADDISON: Just would indicate, and we do so really, I suppose, as a sign of our bona fides and good intentions in relation to this, and it shouldn't be seen as any concession that 24 hours notice is required. But union officials will visit the site at 3.00 pm tomorrow, Thursday, 12 August 2004.
PN228
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, very much.
PN229
MR MADDISON: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN230
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Oberdan, any response to that? You will notify your instructors of the intention to have a visit there - - -
PN231
MS OBERDAN: Yes, I will.
PN232
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thanks very much. All right. Then if I could then now go over to the section 285 matter, which is matter C2004/5192. Ms Oberdan.
PN233
MS OBERDAN: Commissioner, we would like to proceed with hearing of that matter.
PN234
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN235
MS OBERDAN: And list it for programming.
PN236
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. I should make clear that I will be on leave from early September. How long were you wanting to - it may be that that matter will actually have to go therefore to somebody else. I mean, I am happy to - I won't be back until the third week of October, and if the matter could wait til then I am happy to program it for say the fourth week of October, but I suspect your client is wanting it to be dealt with sooner than that.
PN237
MS OBERDAN: Yes, sir.
PN238
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN239
MS OBERDAN: We would be in a position to file an outline of statement and witness statements within 10 days.
PN240
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. The union - sorry - who is the - it is the only the CFMEU - - -
PN241
MS OBERDAN: It is just ACI - yes.
PN242
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - is involved, Mr Maddison?
PN243
MR MADDISON: Yes. The application - - -
PN244
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, 10 days takes me pretty close when I am going on leave in any event.
PN245
MR MADDISON: Commissioner, we would say that the applications were filed on Friday.
PN246
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN247
MR MADDISON: Now, we weren't put on notice, and perhaps there was - that the matter was - that the company intended to proceed or press the application til we got here this morning.
PN248
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN249
MR MADDISON: We say that that is - the company have almost had nearly a week now.
PN250
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN251
MR MADDISON: They want another 10 days. We would certainly seek at least that time, if not more.
PN252
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN253
MR MADDISON: And, Commissioner, the reason we say that, it is a very serious application for a union official.
PN254
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't think it is - it is a very serious matter. Yes.
PN255
MR MADDISON: It does - potentially does impact upon their ability to perform their job.
PN256
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN257
MR MADDISON: Now, in those circumstances we would say that we would want four weeks to file any witness statements and outline of submission, and then the matter can be heard as early as - convenience of either yourself - - -
PN258
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN259
MR MADDISON: And we don't oppose the end of October obviously, but - - -
PN260
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. No, I realise that. Look, I think what I am going to have to do is, I think the timetabling will have to be dealt with by whoever is actually able to take over the matter on this panel here in Melbourne. So - rather I don't intend to issue any directions today.
PN261
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN262
THE COMMISSIONER: I intend to actually try and find if it can be taken over by somebody, that is the major thing.
PN263
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN264
THE COMMISSIONER: They can then deal with the programming.
PN265
MR MADDISON: Yes.
PN266
THE COMMISSIONER: But I will pass on to them what you have both outlined in terms of your own capacity to deal with submissions.
PN267
MR MADDISON: It may be, Commissioner, whoever takes it up, that the directions may be able to be done by phone conference.
PN268
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN269
MR MADDISON: It shouldn't take too long obviously, that may be one way of dealing with the matter more expeditiously.
PN270
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, good, thank you. Yes. Ms Oberdan, nothing further?
PN271
MS OBERDAN: Yes, that is - nothing further.
PN272
THE COMMISSIONER: No, all right, fine. Thank you. Then that matter stands adjourned, and it will actually be set down for hearing when it has been re-allocated. Thank you. And as I have already stated, that the 127 and 166A are adjourned sine die, and the section 99 is adjourned until Wednesday, the 18th, 2.00 pm, Wednesday, 18 August. Good, thank you very much for your assistance. We will now adjourn.
ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 18 AUGUST 2004 [10.44am]
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