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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT AUSTRALASIA PTY LTD
ABN 72 110 028 825
Level 6, 114-120 Castlereagh St SYDNEY NSW 2000
PO Box A2405 SYDNEY SOUTH NSW 1235
Tel:(02) 9238-6500 Fax:(02) 9238-6533
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 13073
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER SMITH
C2004/1393
COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
and
TELSTRA CORPORATION LIMITED
Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re rest breaks and overtime
SYDNEY
10.12 AM, FRIDAY, 13 AUGUST 2004
Continued from 12.8.04
PN2376
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Reitano.
PN2377
MR REITANO: Thank you. Yesterday I think the point we got to a number of times was the distinction that you drew between using the raw figure, if I can call it that, and what I think you phrased as the underlying causes for the raw figure. Do you remember you were asked a number of questions by both myself and I think also the Commission about that matter?---Yes, I do.
PN2378
What I think you were eager to point out, although not quite eager to concede, is that the raw figure was essentially something that as far as you were concerned could be put in the rubbish tin for the purpose of assessing whether a person would be selected for redundancy, and what was much more important or what was important was the underlying reasons for that in selecting a person for redundancy?---I don't believe the figure can be put in the rubbish bin. What I was saying was that the figure is an indicator to look for underlying reasons. It doesn't mean to say necessarily that the figure is to be put in the rubbish bin.
PN2379
What you were eager to do in your evidence yesterday and are still eager to do is to, for reasons that are best known probably to you, you want to retain the importance of the figure?---I believe the figure is important in giving us an indication of performance, yes.
PN2380
You are content on the example that I gave you yesterday with seeing a manager, C. Smith, Reitano, Wood, in the way that I gave you the example yesterday of the scores they saw, you would have no difficulty with the manager looking at those raw figures and simply saying, Wood's out the door because he scored the lowest?---I think what I said is that I would expect the manager there to be looking at why that person scored the lowest.
PN2381
You can point to nothing in the material that tells a manager - sorry, when I say the material, the documents that Telstra has, its policies and procedures and the like - that tells a manager not to engage in the process that I just outlined to you?---It wouldn't be in any of the documents that I'm aware of but it would be something that I would discuss with my managers if we were going to go through a redundancy program.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2382
Something which you might discuss if you were in an appropriate position with your managers if you were going to go through a redundancy exercise; is that right?---It's something that I would do, yes.
PN2383
And you would tell them not to do what I just did, Smith, Reitano, Wood, Wood scores the lowest, out the door?---I would tell them to look for what some of the underlying reasons were for the decisions that were to be made, correct.
PN2384
Yes, I understand that's the positive of what you would tell them but would you tell them not to simply approach the raw figures and simply say that because Wood is the lowest scorer he goes?---That would be part of the conversation I would have but it wouldn't be the only sentence I'd be using in the conversation.
PN2385
No, I understand that. I understand that you would probably introduce yourself to them and say good morning and so on and lots of other things but one of the things you would definitely say to them, as I understand your evidence, is when you see the scores that people get you do not simply say Wood scores the lowest and therefore he goes?---That would be correct. I would say that Wood wouldn't go just because of the score but the score would be an indicator of the performance.
PN2386
Is it the case that you - I think it was you in your affidavit say that the CEPUs concerns about this whole process are well known?---Yes.
PN2387
I think that's the way you put it in your affidavit?---Yes.
PN2388
They've been raised with you over a fairly long period of time?---I've had a number of discussions with representatives of the CEPU about it, yes.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2389
Putting aside whether you agree or disagree with their concerns, the substance of their concerns, as you understand them, is to do with the overall fairness of points; is that a fair representation of your understanding?---They certainly have expressed to me issues around fairness. They've als expressed to me issues around how it's calculated as such.
PN2390
Yes, but that's why I was trying to encompass that as well. Their concerns about how it's calculated ultimately manifest themselves in concerns about the fairness of the whole measure?---That could be their interpretation of it, yes.
PN2391
I'm more concerned about your understanding of the concerns. Can I perhaps try and devolve into some of the specifics?---Sure.
PN2392
You understand, for example, that they are concerned about people who do not complete jobs not being awarded any points for that and that they see that as being unfair?---I'm aware of that, yes.
PN2393
You understand - I think I asked you some of this yesterday - that one of the things that they see as particularly unfair is the way in which travelling time is to be dealt with?---Yes, I'm aware that they believe that could be better.
PN2394
Would you agree with the proposition that I think I've put to a couple of other witnesses now, that the fairest way in absolute terms of assessing or giving points to travelling time is to take account of actual time travelled?---That would probably be a more accurate number but it depends on whether that is accurately able to be monitored.
PN2395
Generally, most people I assume in Telstra are no different from others, they have watches, correct?---They do.
PN2396
And a good accurate way of measuring time is to look at your watch when you get in the car and look at it when you get out of the car and assuming that you're not as mathematically challenged as I might be, working out how long that took, correct?---You can use a watch to determine that, yes.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2397
Right, so if it took an hour and 10 minutes, the actual time that a person travelled would be the fairest way, that is the hour and 10 minutes, and ascribe points to that, would be the fairest way of dealing with it, wouldn't it?---Well, it's one way of dealing with it.
PN2398
Yes, I understand it's one way. What I'm suggesting to you is it's the fairest way?---It would give you an actual amount of time that was taken. The question is, I guess, whether you can accurately measure that every time.
PN2399
That is whether you can look at your watch every time?---It depends whether you're actually trying to calculate a number, whether you're able to have a system to do that for you or whether you want individuals to be able to measure that themselves.
PN2400
As I understand it - once again your understanding is going to be a million times better than mine but mine's much simpler - but as I understand it, out in the field a communications technician has with them a palm pilot?---They do.
PN2401
In which they record the time at which the accepted the job, correct? Sorry, you can't "mm" because we're being taped?---Correct.
PN2402
They log on when they get to the job?---Yes.
PN2403
And they log off when they finish the job?---That's how it's meant to work, yes.
PN2404
And that's how it usually works?---Mostly, not always though.
PN2405
No, I'm sure there's exceptions to everything but as a general - - -?---Sometimes people don't follow the booking practices that we ask them to follow on their palm pilot.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2406
We might return to that in a moment, but generally that's the practice that would be followed?---That's the practice we ask people to follow.
PN2407
And generally that's the practice that is followed? I'm talking generalisations; I'm trying to point that out to you?---Well, I can't say whether it's generally the case or not, to be honest with you. I don't know exactly how everybody complies with those button compliance issues.
PN2408
But that's what would be expected of people?---Correct, that's what would be expected of people.
PN2409
From that, "the computer", wherever it may be, perhaps even one sitting on your desk, is able to tell us how long it was between the time when they finished the last job and when they started the next job, correct?---I would imagine that's possible. I don't have that information in front of me.
PN2410
Therefore we would know from that material the actual time that they spent travelling from one job to the next?---Only if the button compliance is correct.
PN2411
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Bowman, it begs the question, is this a system established for everybody to deal with the dishonesty of some or a few?---It's not a system, I don't believe, revolving around dishonesty of people. When the measure was created my understanding would be to say that what is the simplest and most accurate way that we could do this across a large workforce, given that it doesn't just apply to a workforce in Sydney, it applies to a workforce across Australia, so what would be the simplest and most effective way to be able to have that measure across all of that workforce.
PN2412
So that was the objective. It wasn't the objective just to overcome dishonesty?---I don't believe so, no, but I didn't invent - - -
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2413
But if there was a means available to measure the actual time in broad terms, the matter that we have been debating over the last five minutes. You would agree with me that that would be a fairer measure than an assumed travelling time?---I believe it would be an accurate measure but I don't understand from where I sit any limitations with the system or issues around the system, I can't comment whether they have any impact on the validity of that.
PN2414
I think now it means asking you to explain? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your answer?---I'm just saying that there may be some reasons in the systems, I don't understand the technical way the system works that it actually calculates what you are talking about to say that it exactly does what you are saying.
PN2415
Right, I understand what you are saying. When you talk about the system you mean the system of logging on and logging off and so on?---Yes, I haven't worked in the fields of technicians so I haven't done exactly that work.
PN2416
So your knowledge is on this occasion is as good as mine, not better. If the system worked in the way I described to you, and did achieve that, then you agree with my proposition, as I understand it, that that would be firstly a more accurate way of measuring travelling time, correct?---Well, it would an accurate way.
PN2417
But more accurate than making assumptions?---Well, it seems that if you are looking at the assumptions to give you a guide it might be that that is a simpler way to do it for people to use a number as a guide.
PN2418
If however, you have the actual figures available to you then it would be far better you would agree, or far fairer, to use the actual figures rather than a guide, correct?---If they were accurate.
PN2419
Yes?---Probably.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2420
The only - let's be frank about it - if everything I've said about the way in which the palm pilot works, people logging on and logging off and using their watches and so on is correct, the only thing that screws that result is the one that the Commissioner inquired about and that is the dishonesty of the few?---Not necessarily dishonesty, it may be the fact that the person just hasn't operated it correctly, it is not always a dishonesty factor and I'm not suggesting that everybody is dishonest.
PN2421
Then another way of dealing with it, I'll ask you, so just keep this in mind, I'm going to ask you whether Telstra has looked at this. Another way of dealing with it of course is that if you fail to record your actual time then there will be a default to assume time, that's another way of dealing with it, correct?---Yes, it could be a way of dealing with it.
PN2422
Has that been looked at?---I don't know.
PN2423
When you say you don't know, you have certainly said a lot about the CP system in your statement, both directly and by way of agreement with Mr Bernays. You have also been involved in dealing with - I'm not saying comprehensively - but dealing with a large number of the CEPUs complaints. Correct?---I have had a number of discussions with them, yes.
PN2424
Have you looked at any way of dealing with, or given consideration to, any way of dealing with the CEPUs concerns about the travelling time issue?---Well, certainly those issues have been raised with other people in the organisation around that issue, around the travelling time.
PN2425
My question was more personal. Have you given consideration to how the CEPU concerns about that issue might be met?---I've given to thinking how they could be met by raising them with other people that would understand the system better than I.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2426
Has the proposal of using actual time rather than assumed time been something that has been looked at?---I don't know.
PN2427
Sorry, so then to your knowledge then it hasn't been looked at, in any conversations that you have had there has been no discussion about that?---We have talked about travel time, and the issues that the CEPU have raised about the travel time, but I don't know if the people that operate the system have considered it as a different method.
PN2428
I think you are saying we are on the same planet on this. You haven't talked to any of those people about using actual time rather than assumed time for the purpose of calculating travel time?---I have talked to them about the issue that the CEPU have raised about it.
PN2429
Yes. Have you put to them, or have they put to you, or has there been any suggestion in a way of dealing with it is by reference to actual time?---I don't recall having had that discussion.
PN2430
Thank you. I just want to step back to the previous matter I asked you t and that was the incomplete jobs. Have you had any discussion with anyone about how that concern of the CEPU can be dealt with?---I have had the same discussions as I have with people regarding the travel time.
PN2431
Yes, I understand that it would have arisen in the same context?---It did.
PN2432
Has there been any proposal put forward to meet the CEPUs concern in that regard?---Not that I'm aware of.
PN2433
No. See both in respect of travel time and incomplete jobs it is the position that Telstra's position, as far as you understand it, has not changed despite the CEPUs complaints about those two issues?---I haven't been involved in every discussion that has been had between Telstra and the CEPU on CC and the issues that they have so it may have been covered in a forum where I wasn't present.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2434
I understand that, and once again taking it back to you, and I'm not trying to in any way trick you or anything. As far as you're concerned you understand that Telstra's position has not changed despite these complaints that have been raised by the CEPU?---I would understand that but I wasn't in the meeting where it was probably discussed more, I wasn't there.
PN2435
All right, thank you. Now a third concern,that I think you are aware of, is the possibility that people might - and once again I think I put this to you yesterday - screw the results in their own favour by working either unauthorised overtime or working through their lunch hours. Are you aware of that concern that has been raised?---Yes, I am.
PN2436
Once again you are aware that the CEPU has been agitating about that issue?---Yes, I have.
PN2437
And once again has that been something that you have addressed?---It is not something that I have addressed personally, no. It could very well have been addressed in other meetings that I wasn't party to.
PN2438
Right. Just on these - I think I've now raised with you three issues and I'm going to raise a few more with you in a moment. But on these three issues you have a general understanding of how it assesses the system unfairly, sorry, it may work unfairly because of those factors?---I understand the CEPUs concerns about those factors.
PN2439
I'm not asking you to agree with their concerns, I know that that would be like banging my head against a brick wall. But you understand the logic of how they in a common sense way rationalise why those things may lead to unfair results in the system, don't you?---I understand the conversations I've had with them, yes, and what they have told me.
PN2440
But you understand why it is they say for example that it is unfair not to give people points for incomplete jobs?---I understand their reasoning for it, yes.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2441
It is not as though you are saying, well, it is off their rockers because it just doesn't make sense, you do have understanding about the logic behind why they think those things lead to unfairness?---I understand their reasoning when they speak to me, I mean, we have normally intelligent conversations together so I understand what they are saying.
PN2442
You are doing better than me, I mean with them, not with you. Can I ask you about perhaps some of the concerns that you might consider to be more of the periphery but nonetheless I want to raise them with you. One factor that might affect a communications technician in the work that he does,and probably wouldn't happen in Sydney too much these days, but you probably understand that Telstra operates in other states, and in other states it rains. One factor that might affect the points that a communication technician is able to score is the weather. Correct?---The weather, yes, it can still have an effect.
PN2443
Because the weather can very much influence a range of things, one is how quickly a job can be done, or indeed in some cases whether a job can be completed at all?---True.
PN2444
Once again, you understand that that's a matter that the CEPU have raised as a of complaint?---Yes, I'm aware that was an issue that was raised.
PN2445
And once again going through the fairness of the way in which the points are calculated?---Yes, I understand their point about that.
PN2446
But the final one I want to deal with you, rather as I say taking you through each and every one of the concerns is that they have raised a concern that people might, as it were, cut corners in terms of safety matters. Do you have an understanding about what that issue is about?---Yes, I do.
PN2447
Once again, you don't run away from the fact that generally speaking communication technicians work alone in the field?---Generally speaking, they do, yes.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2448
As a matter of, I suppose common sense more than anything else, where people are working alone the capacity to cut corners and do silly things is much greater than when you are working with someone else. Correct?---It could be.
PN2449
One person being stupid is more likely than two people being stupid, as a general proposition?---Potentially.
PN2450
In addition the capacity for cutting corners when you are working alone is much greater. Correct?---It could be.
PN2451
Can you tell me anywhere in the documentation that a company lodges a development of or implementation of CC points whether an employee is given any specific training, direction or anything in fact that ensured that they did not engage in, as it were, cutting corners?---Well, they are given substantial training in health and safety processes and procedures as part of an ongoing part of their employment with the organisation. So they are given continual training and continual raising of awareness of health and safety matters.
PN2452
CC points as it were, you would agree, put the pressure on productivity; didn't it? For people to lift or - in many cases lift or improve their productivity; correct?---I am not sure it puts pressure on people to lift their productivity.
PN2453
So, for example, setting targets that they have to reach, where they are not reaching them, and sitting down with them and telling them that they have to reach those targets does not put pressure on them to achieve them?---It depends whether the conversation is of that nature or whether the conversation is about a target that you would like people to reach and move towards, understand the reasons behind why they couldn't get there, and work with them to try and improve their performance.
PN2454
You don't think that normal, natural human experience would be that people would regard cutting corners as being one way in which they could achieve the target?---Some people might think that but I wouldn't think everybody would think that.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2455
What procedures or policies or training, instruction, direction does Telstra put in place to ensure that in respect of those "some people" that you identified that they are not cutting corners in respect of safety in order to achieve their CC points?---We have a program of, for instance, when we are looking at health and safety issues we have self-assessments that run in various areas of the organisation where we assess what the practices are that people are using in the field.
PN2456
Is it fair to say, nothing special or different has been done to accompany the introduction of the CC measure in respect of the assessment of people's safety?---There is already a substantial amount of health and safety procedures and policies that are applied in the organisation anyway.
PN2457
So nothing different has been done in respect of safety upon the introduction of CC points?---Not that I am aware of.
PN2458
Can I then ask you some questions about some things that you pick up from Mr Bernace's statement?---Yes.
PN2459
I won't be too much longer with you. In Mr Bernace's statement - do you have a copy of Mr Bernace's statement with you?---Yes, I do.
PN2460
Good. Could I ask you to go to paragraph 15?---Yes.
PN2461
Could you just read it to yourself. It is about the topic we have just been dealing with. I just want you to remind yourself?---Yes.
PN2462
You don't cavil with this proposition as I understand your statement - that is Mr Bernace's proposition - that the system will produce on occasions anomalous results?---Yes, that's true it could.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2463
Do I understand the basis upon which you say that the system might produce anomalous results is at least in part based on the types of things I have been asking you about this morning; incomplete jobs, working through lunch hours; travelling time and the like? That I think Mr Bernace then outlines in his statement - in the remainder of paragraph 15?---Well that would have an impact on what the results were. As I was explaining yesterday I would be expecting people to then see the reasons behind what the results were.
PN2464
Right. But you readily concede, as I understand it - like Mr Bernace does - that those things that he identifies in that paragraph might be the factors that give rise to anomalous results?---They could give rise to different results than you would expect, yes.
PN2465
Are you able to tell me what testing was done in order to ascertain that - and once again, I suspect you don't know this even though you have agreed with what Mr Bernace says - what testing was done to ascertain that the assumed basis for calculation of travelling time works both ways? That is, it will increase a person's points as well as decrease them?---I don't know what the testing that was done but I understand that that is how it would work.
PN2466
You see you don't know whether that is so or not, do you; that is that it does work both ways?---Well, I guess from the commonsense approach I would say that it works both ways, from my own understanding.
PN2467
I invite you to explain to me the commonsense?---Well, the travel points in my understanding is worked out based on distance between two points. At times to travel the distance between those two points would be longer, other times it would be shorter.
PN2468
Well it depends upon the assumptions that are used to calculate it; doesn't it?---Yes, it does.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2469
The assumptions are based entirely upon an actual calculation of how long it takes to travel legally from point A to B then it is always going to be a negative factor in CC points; isn't it?---I wouldn't have thought so. I would have thought at times it would be faster and at times it would be slower.
PN2470
If the travel from point A to point B took 10 minutes and point A to point B is a perfect straight line, and the assumed basis of the travelling time was that it would take an employee 10 minutes legally to travel from A to B without any traffic, it is always going to be against an employee if you then introduce either a curve in the road, or some traffic, or any other variable that might slow them down; correct?---But if the system uses between two points and then it assumes a particular speed, then you might be going faster than that speed or you could be going slower than that speed.
PN2471
Right, well I am not going to trouble you with this too long. I want to put to you the proposition that what you have just said is actually wrong and it defies commonsense to suggest that it works both ways; what do you say about that?---Well, my understanding is that it does work both ways.
PN2472
Where did you get that understanding from? Just from what you say is commonsense?---Well, my understanding is that the way that it calculates travel time is, it is distance between two points based on what the average speed would be between those two points. I could be mistaken but that is my understanding of it. I would imagine that at times you would go faster than that speed and at other times you would go slower than that speed which would give rise to a different result. Now, I could be incorrect in how it actually measures, that travel time, but that is my understanding.
PN2473
Do you understand that it uses - I call it "as the crow flies" but I think other people have called it - oh, I see why Melbourne people don't use "as the crow flies"; it uses "line of sight" which is the straight line calculation?---Right.
PN2474
You understand that; don't you?---Yes, I understand that.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2475
So once you start introducing curves in a road that calculation is automatically going to be skewed; isn't it?---I would think it would depend on what average speed you use.
PN2476
So you think that that is the variable that could correct it?---I think it is a variable in there.
PN2477
Could I ask you, in paragraph 17 of your affidavit?---My affidavit?
PN2478
Sorry, Mr Bernace, again. I take it that one way of reading that, it is not a fair way, safety is in fact a paramount consideration; isn't it?---Yes, safety is very important in the organisation.
PN2479
Paramount; isn't it?---Yes, it would be.
PN2480
And if CC points were set in any way to operate in a way that might compromise a person's safety then they would be done away with; wouldn't they?---What do you mean "done away with", sorry?
PN2481
Well you wouldn't use them if they were in any way going to compromise a person's safety?---We wouldn't want them to compromise their safety. Absolutely.
PN2482
No. So if they were going to have that effect then you would do away with them?---I don't understand what you mean by "do away with them", sorry.
PN2483
You wouldn't use them?---Use the people.
PN2484
No, use CC points as a measure?---I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2485
That's all right?---Well I would be wanting to explain to the person that in fact we could still use the CC measure but I would still want them to abide by the health and safety aspects as well.
PN2486
Even if there was the prospect that CC points would compromise safety?---I believe we could talk to people about saying health and safety is important equally, and that people would be intelligent enough to understand that.
PN2487
Mr Bernace says in his statement - and I am taking you to a paragraph that I don't think you adopted, but I want to ask you about it. In his statement says at paragraph 21:
PN2488
The Award provisions in respect of overtime and hours of work aren't always obeyed.
PN2489
Is that your understanding. Perhaps read the paragraph to yourself first so that you know what I am talking about?---I have read that.
PN2490
Do you agree with that paragraph?---It would sound that it would happen, yes.
PN2491
The Award or Enterprise Agreements that govern people's work - or hours of work as I put it - as I understand what he says and you agree with are not always obeyed?---In what respect, sorry?
PN2492
In that people, for example, will be allowed to work overtime but not be paid for it?---Well that is not something I would be asking anybody to do.
PN2493
I didn't suggest that you were asking people to do it or not to do it. What I am suggesting is, is that something that you say happens?---Well, it could happen. I don't have any personal knowledge of it but it could happen.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2494
Well I asked you did you agree with what Mr Bernace says and Mr Bernace says it happens and you said you agree with it?---Well, it is possible that it happens. I don't have any knowledge of it happening though.
PN2495
So you only say it is a possibility?---Well I am not aware of anybody coming up to me and saying they have been working unpaid overtime. Are you asking me is it a thing that could happen in the field? Well it could.
PN2496
I asked you whether you agreed with Mr Bernace, paragraph 21, in particular the sentence:
PN2497
I know that some team leaders in my area on occasions operate on a give and take basis with respect to overtime in that a CT will be allowed to leave work a little early or start a little late ...
PN2498
Blah, blah blah. And you said you agree with that. Do you know whether that happens or not?---I don't know if that actually happens, no.
PN2499
If it does happen it would be something that you would want to stamp out and treat as serious matter; correct?---Well, if it was on a give and take basis with respect to overtime I would really need to understand the circumstances of each particular case.
PN2500
Similarly I take it that in respect of people working during their lunch hours or working unauthorised hours for overtime, you've done nothing to make sure that that doesn't happen?---That people don't work?
PN2501
Unauthorised times in order to accumulate CC points?---I haven't done anything specifically that I recall.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2502
Once again, you understand that allegation that was being made, that one of the things people are doing to increase their points is to work unauthorised hours, correct?---Yes.
PN2503
You as a manager see that as a bonanza because you are getting labour without having to pay for it?---I don't see it as a bonanza, no.
PN2504
You certainly haven't done, personally, I'm asking you personally, you certainly haven't done anything to either investigate the veracity of the CEPUs claim or secondly to stamp out the practice, have you?---The issues that have been raised with me by the CEPU have been raised with other people in other forums as well about the issues to do with the particular measure. I'm not party to every single conversation that's been had around those concerns.
PN2505
My question was you have done nothing to make sure that that isn't happening?---Could you explain; what's happening?
PN2506
That people are working through their lunch hour without claiming payment for it?---I've spoken with my managers regarding that to say that that's not something that we want to see happen.
PN2507
And that's it, that's all you've done, spoken to your managers?---That's what I've done about it, yes.
PN2508
And told them it's not something you want to see happen?---That's correct, that's what I've done.
PN2509
Other than that you've done nothing?---I haven't done anything else particularly myself.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2510
You haven't caused anyone else to do anything either, have you?---That issue has been raised with other people.
PN2511
Are you aware that there were three employees, one readily comes to mind, Mr Costa who you know of, but there are other employees in these proceedings who gave evidence; are you aware of their evidence, have you read it?---Who are the employees?
PN2512
Searle?---Yes.
PN2513
And Wilde?---I'm not sure. Searle and Wilde, I mean, I can't be exactly sure if I've read their evidence, to be honest with you.
PN2514
Do you recall that Searle said that he works through his lunch hour to get his CC points?---I don't recall that, no.
PN2515
Do you recall that Costa said that?---I don't recall that, no.
PN2516
Do you recall that either of them said that they worked unauthorised hours, that is at the end of the day or the beginning of the day, in order to get their points up?---I don't recall that.
PN2517
If they did, that would be something that you would immediately put in train - sorry. If you learnt of that I assume you would so something immediately to stamp that out?---I'd be wanting to understand what the circumstances were and what had happened in that particular case, yes.
PN2518
Stay with me, we'll use Costa because he's someone who's on our minds. In Costa's case, if he worked through his lunch hours and said on his oath in evidence to the Commission that he worked through his lunch hours to get his points up, what would you be doing about that?---I'd be wanting to understand why he was doing that.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2519
I want you to assume that he tells you that he's doing it because he fears that he'll be made redundant or that he'll be disciplined if he doesn't get enough CC points and that's the only way he can see clear to get enough points. What's your next step?---My next step would be to make sure, I guess, that he would understand that that wasn't the purpose of the CC measure or what it was designed to do.
PN2520
Then what would happen?---I would be wanting to help him understand, to explain for him to understand that what the purpose of the CC measure was and what it was designed to achieve.
PN2521
And if he's still being told at the same time of course by either you, in our assumption, or someone else at the same time that his CC target is 3.6 and he still sees the only way of achieving that by working unauthorised hours, but because you've told him that he's not to do that he doesn't tell you about it, how do you ascertain whether he's working unauthorised hours or not then?---I could only go on by what he tells me or what his manager tells me.
PN2522
Yes, and because he works alone there's no way of finding out?---I can only go on what he would tell me.
PN2523
So when it comes to our Smith, Reitano, Wood exercise that we had yesterday, and Smith being the do-gooder that he is has been working through all his lunch hours, the selection process is skewed because Smith has kept secret from you and from everyone else the fact that he's been working through his lunch time to get that many points, and it makes him look like a much more productive employee than the other two; correct?---I go back to my previous point, is to say that I would want to understand the differences between why people were at varying levels.
PN2524
What you don't know you can't understand, correct?---But you can ask.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2525
Yes, and Smith steadfastly says, I'm just a good worker. What do you do about it?---I'd be asking the other people that were there to understand why they were related lower than the others to find out what their work practices were.
PN2526
They say, I don't know, I put in a days work, had my lunch time and I knock off at 5.00 o'clock, I don't know how Smith's able to generate 5.5. What happens then?---I believe you would be trying to understand it from the people that are there.
PN2527
That's becoming like a broken record now. What I'm putting to you is you've got the results, 5.5, 4, 2.8, you're looking at underlying causes as you put it, and all you can tell me is you would want to understand it, and I'm asking you how?---By talking with the individuals that were involved and understanding what their work practices were.
PN2528
And the individual can tell you nothing that assists you to understand those results. What do you do then?---I don't agree that they could tell me nothing. I believe that they would be able to tell me what they do in the field.
PN2529
And the manager who then comes to assess them for redundancy who doesn't know what the underlying causes are because he can't understand them and because Smith has concealed the fact that he's been working every lunch hour, then says, Well, I've looked at the underlying causes, Wood, you scored lowest, out. You agree that that is a high possibility of what could occur under this system, don't you?---No, I don't. It's only if believe that it's just the raw number that you're looking at.
PN2530
What I'm putting to you is that there are circumstances where managers will be confronted with nothing other than the raw number?---I don't agree with that.
PN2531
Which is biased and skewed against people who take their lunch times and don't work unauthorised times?---I don't agree it's just the raw number.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2532
THE COMMISSIONER: In that vein, have you still got the amended draft exceptional matters order in front of you?---Yes, I do.
PN2533
If we talk about just 3.1 at the moment and not 3.2. Would it cover the issues you raised and also the issues the union raised if a paragraph was put in at the end of that, However, any poor work practices or performance which may give rise to unsatisfactory completion, contribution, productivity measures may be used? Do you see the point that I'm making that arises out of that questioning?---Yes.
PN2534
Would that satisfy you?---Me as an individual, as a manager?
PN2535
Yes?---It probably would, yes.
PN2536
Because you see what the proposition I'm putting, it's not the measure as such being used, it's the issues behind the measure that you've been talking about?---Yes.
PN2537
If somebody has poor work practices or poor performance that feeds in, if you like, to the measure, the measure becomes the trigger which then generates a focus on that activity?---Yes.
PN2538
Should cc points be used for the purpose of allocating overtime to people?---Should they be used to allocate overtime?
PN2539
Yes, choosing who gets to work overtime and who doesn't?---I wouldn't normally have thought so,no.
PN2540
Should they be used for the purpose of ascertaining who should be on after hours recall?---I wouldn't have normally thought so, no.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2541
I am not sure if you will agree with this or not, but I often get confused between Australia Post and Telstra. There is a certain amount of overtime that is rostered overtime within the organisation, is that fair?---What do you mean by rostered?
PN2542
It is known, you know you are going to have a certain amount of overtime that is going to have to be worked and you are going to have to have some of the workforce available to do that?---It varies but we do work overtime.
PN2543
There is a level of overtime that's reasonably predictable maybe that's the best way of putting it?---We tend to work overtime on a regular basis, is that what you mean.
PN2544
And a lot of people like to work overtime because it means they get more money?---Yes, some people do.
PN2545
And it would be considered in some areas, not every area but it would be considered a reward to be able to work overtime?---i don't know if people consider it a reward, some people don't like working overtime and some people do.
PN2546
But if someone did like working overtime they would consider being chosen to work overtime as a reward?---I don't know that they would call it a reward.
PN2547
Okay, all right, I don't want to play semantics with you, you can call it whatever you like. It would be a benefit to them, wouldn't it if they wanted more money- - -?---If they wanted to work the overtime.
PN2548
Yes, and similarly?---If it was available.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2549
Similarly with the after hours recall, that's another benefit to them to be able to work that in terms of getting paid extra money for it, correct?---To some people it would be a benefit, yes.
PN2550
It would be entirely wrong to use cc points for the purpose of denying people for those benefits, wouldn't it?---It would depend what the reason was.
PN2551
It would be entirely wrong to use cc points as a means of denying a person the ability to be on the after hours recall roster, correct?---It would depend, I think.
PN2552
THE COMMISSIONER: What would it depend on?---It would depend on the reasons why their cc was like it was.
PN2553
MR REITANO: Why would you deny someone the ability to be on the after hours recall roster if their cc points were low?---Why would you?
PN2554
You are saying it depends, I want to understand why it depends on anything?---Because maybe their work practices were such that that was why their cc points were low and when you want people on recall they are going out in the middle of the night often, that you probably want people that are more proficient maybe.
PN2555
To be on the after hours recall roster?---Could be.
PN2556
What about - - -?---On the after hours recall roster, potentially.
PN2557
It wouldn't depend on anything then, it would be in every case that if someone scored badly on cc points you wouldn't choose them for overtime and you wouldn't choose them on the after hours recall roster, correct?---I haven't chosen people for overtime based on their cc points.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2558
You haven't?---No.
PN2559
Because you I think agreed with my first question that it would be inappropriate to do that but it wouldn't depend, if someone was using your rationale that you just used people who scored low on the cc points would not be selected for overtime and would not be selected to be on the after hours recall roster, correct?---Could you repeat that, sorry.
PN2560
On the rationale that you just went through as to the circumstances in which persons would not score low cc points and therefore the reason why they wouldn't be given overtime you would never choose a person who had low points to be on overtime?---That's not necessarily true. When we ask the people for overtime for instance on a Saturday and if people don't want to work overtime on a Saturday we normally take people that put their hands up to work irrespective of what their cc points are.
PN2561
Right, so you wouldn't discriminate against someone because they had low cc points?---Normally we put a call out for people to do overtime and I don't actually manage the numbers of the people or who actually gets to go the overtime so I don't actually make the decision myself about who does the overtime and who doesn't.
PN2562
I am not sure that that dealt with my question and I will ask it again. Perhaps it did but I will ask it again anyway. You would not be discriminated against if your cc points were low when it came to the question of selecting someone for overtime?---I wouldn't think you would be but I don't make the choices about who does the overtime.
PN2563
You would consider it to be inappropriate?---If their cc points were low?
PN2564
Yes, as a generalisation?---That is a big generalisation.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2565
A big generalisation but can you deal with it?---My understanding is when we look to people to work overtime this is what my understanding is as the manager, that the people who do the overtime are normally the people that have nominated to do the overtime. Does that answer your question?
PN2566
the problem is perhaps everyone in the organisation for whatever reason on a particular date wants to work overtime and you don't need everyone, you only need a proportion of people or a number of people, are you telling me that one of the criteria should be their cc measure in selecting who should be able to work overtime and who should not be able to?---No, I don't think it is normally taken as a criteria but I am not the person who makes the selection.
PN2567
You don't think it should be used as criteria?---I'd probably say no, it shouldn't be.
PN2568
Firstly because it's a different purpose for which it is not intended is one reason why you say that, correct?---Yes.
PN2569
It is not intended to be a thing that is used in selecting people for overtime is it?---No, it wasn't intended for that when it originally began, no.
PN2570
No, it is not intended for that today either is it?---I don't believe so.
PN2571
It would be being used for a purpose that is entirely foreign to what it was intended to be used for, correct?---It wouldn't be what it was originally designed for.
PN2572
The other reason why you would agree with it is that people shouldn't be penalised because of their cc measure and denying people of the benefit of working overtime, if they see it as a benefit would be a penalty, correct?---If the person really wanted to do the overtime.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2573
Yes, it would be used as a penalty and it wasn't designed for that either was it?---No, it wasn't designed for that, no.
PN2574
Can I go to your second statement for a moment and I think this will be it hopefully. Paragraph 10 of your second statement you refer to, for whatever reason around and about these paragraphs you refer to a whole lot of correspondence which you actually do annex to your statement but for some reason there is correspondence that you have chosen not to annex to your statement and I want to show you firstly the letter fo 2 July that is referred to in paragraph 10?---Thank you.
PN2575
And I might at the same time show you the letter fo 20 July that is referred to in paragraph 14.
PN2576
THE COMMISSIONER: What are you going to do with them? Are you going to tender them. I think I had better have a copy.
PN2577
MR WOOD: Commissioner - - -
PN2578
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want me to not receive them?
PN2579
MR WOOD: Yes. Commissioner, my instructions - have you received a letter of 2 July. In relation to the letter of 20 July 2004 there was some correspondence written to the union about this letter and the position of Telstra is that, and it is set out in CEPU1, the exhibit that was tendered on 6 May, is that the matters that were discussed in the workshop were matters that were discussed without prejudice. If my learned friend would give me a few minutes I might be able to ascertain whether those are still my instructions, are those my instructions at the moment.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2580
THE COMMISSIONER: Why do we not take a five minute break? We will take a short adjournment.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.06am]
RESUMED [11.35am]
PN2581
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?
PN2582
MR RIATANO: I think we have resolved it this way, Commissioner, that I will tender the letter of 2 July 2004 and then we will talk about the other one over the luncheon adjournment but we think we can resolve it but we just need a bit more time.
PN2583
THE COMMISSIONER: Good, that will be sight I will like to see, you all having lunch together discussing that matter.
PN2584
MR RIATANO: No, we did not say that was going to happen at all, Commissioner.
PN2585
PN2586
MR RIATANO: Those are my questions, Commissioner.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN XXN MR REITANO
PN2587
PN2588
MR WOOD: Mr Bowman, I would like to ask you about a couple of matters that were raised yesterday and also, about a matter that was raised today, you were asked some questions yesterday about the redundancy process and you were asked questions whether or not you knew of any communication to the field work force about whether or not the CC measuring it and if so, to what extent the CC measure would be taken into account in any redundancy process, do you recall those questions?---Yes, I do.
PN2589
I will hand you - have you still got your supplementary witness statement in front of you?---Yes, I do.
PN2590
Can you turn to exhibit 7, please Mr Bowman, of that statement?---Yes.
PN2591
If you just have a read of that for a moment?---Yes.
PN2592
Can you now have a look at paragraph 21 of your supplementary statement which attaches the exhibit that I have just taken you to?---Yes.
PN2593
Would you have a read of paragraph 21 and can you explain how it was, if at all, that communication was made to the field work force?---I believe it was made following further discussions that were held I believe, between CEPU and Telstra and it was a means of clarifying aspects around the SMS messaging and also, about the redundancy agreement.
PN2594
And are you aware how it was communicated to the field work force?---I am aware of receiving that email myself and then forwarding it on to my managers and also, to discussing it at a meeting with my direct reports as well.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN RXN MR WOOD
PN2595
And when you forwarded it on to your managers did you forward it on with any instructions and if so, what were the instructions?---I believe I forwarded it on saying this needed to be communicated to the field and that we would discuss it at the next direct reports meeting as well.
PN2596
Did you discuss it at the next direct reports meeting?---Yes, we did.
PN2597
What was the nature of that discussion?---The discussion was about that it needed to be communicated to the field staff and also, about the process that needed to be adopted, if I remember rightly, that if people wanted to opt into to receiving the SMS messages.
PN2598
Was anything said to you to the effect that this had been or had not been communicated to the field work force?---No.
PN2599
You were asked some questions yesterday about the factors that might be taken into account in a redundancy situation under the heading of productivity and effectiveness and I think your response to my learned friend's questions were to the effect that you could not recall precise what all the factors were under the heading of effectiveness and productivity, is that right?---Yes, that is correct.
PN2600
I hand you Mr Thomas' statement, can you turn to exhibit 5 of Mr Thomas' statement which has been marked?---Yes.
PN2601
Exhibit 5 is referred to in paragraph 18 as the Telstra Employee Selection Process and I think that is the individual selection process you gave evidence about yesterday, is it not?---Yes, that is correct.
PN2602
Can you turn to exhibit 5 and go to page 13?---Yes.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN RXN MR WOOD
PN2603
Do you see there there is a heading, effectiveness?---Yes.
PN2604
And do you see there, there is a number of behaviours or factors to be taken into account in assessing effectiveness?---Yes.
PN2605
Were they the behaviours or factors that you were referring to when you were answering the questions yesterday?---Yes, they were.
PN2606
Can you turn back to page 10?---Yes.
PN2607
There is a reference to performance expectation at the top of page 10?---Yes.
PN2608
What do you say if anything, about the extent to which these factors are taken into account in assessing performance?---Well, they would all be factors that you would be looking for people to have performed as part of that process.
PN2609
I want to ask you now about a matter that was raised with you today, Mr Bowman, you were asked some questions about health and safety and about whether or not there had been any communication by you dealing with the interaction of CC measures or CC points and health and safety performance, do you measure health and safety performance and results within the Sydney region of Metro services?---We do measure our health and safety results, yes.
PN2610
I take it from Mr Streeter, you agree with Mr Streeter's statement and I don't think it is in contest that the CC measure was rolled out in the Sydney region of Metro services about August last year?---That is correct.
PN2611
Do you keep results or records of health and safety performance for 2003 and 2004?---Yes, we do.
**** JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN RXN MR WOOD
PN2612
And are you able to say anything about the extent to which health and safety performances have increased or decreased in your region over the past year?---Over the past year the performance in the Sydney region on health and safety has improved since that time in a number of areas, a number of factors.
PN2613
Nothing further in re-examination, Commissioner.
PN2614
PN2615
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Wood?
PN2616
MR WOOD: Commissioner, we were going to make an application, subject to what the Commission has to say, inviting the Commission to go into conference again, as it did yesterday.
PN2617
MR REITANO: We don't know that we would want to take a lot of time doing that but there are a number of things that we think might be usefully set or explored. It would be entirely a matter for Mr Wood and the Commission.
PN2618
MR WOOD: No objection to that, Commissioner.
PN2619
THE COMMISSIONER: With the usual, the participants that were there yesterday?
PN2620
MR REITANO: Yes.
PN2621
THE COMMISSIONER: We'll adjourn into conference.
OFF THE RECORD [11.46am]
RESUMED [12.18pm]
PN2622
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wood.
PN2623
MR WOOD: Thank you, Commissioner. I call Mark Spencer Milburn.
PN2624
MR REITANO: You said Hanlon.
PN2625
PN2626
MR WOOD: Mr Hanlon, can you give your full name to the Commission please?---Neil Ross Hanlon.
PN2627
What is your address, Mr Hanlon?---(Address supplied.)
PN2628
Are you employed by Telstra Corporation Limited?---Yes, I am.
PN2629
In what position are you so employed?---I'm the Area Service Manager for the New England FSA, New South Wales.
PN2630
How long have you been employed by Telstra?---Approximately 32 years.
PN2631
I wonder, Mr Hanlon, if you just might be able to speak up a little bit. Mr Hanlon, have you made a witness statement in this proceeding?---Yes, I have.
PN2632
Do you have it in front of you?---I do.
PN2633
I understand there are a couple of changes that you wish to make to your witness statement. Can I take you to paragraph 3?---Yes.
PN2634
I understand that as at today's date you've heard your current position with Telstra for approximately 22 months, not 18 months, is that right?---That's correct.
PN2635
If we delete 18 and insert 22 then it is accurate, that sentence, is that right?---That's correct.
PN2636
Then in the third sentence you say:
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XN MR WOOD
PN2637
In my current role I am responsible for the overall performance for approximately 130 CTs.
PN2638
Is it 126?---That's correct.
PN2639
If we delete 130 and insert 126, is the sentence now accurate?---That's correct.
PN2640
Have you read this statement before coming to the witness-box today?---Yes, I have.
PN2641
Is the statement true and accurate with those two amendments?---Yes, it is.
PN2642
I tender the statement.
PN2643
PN2644
MR WOOD: Before my learned friend, Mr Reitano, cross-examines you, Mr Hanlon, I might just ask you a couple of questions arising from the evidence that has been given here today - given here yesterday and the day before. Did you attend the Gundanar depot on 17 February 2004 and have a meeting with the communication technicians who formed part of Mr Wild's team?---Yes, it's the Gunnedah depot. Yes, I did.
PN2645
What did you say to the CTs who were present at that team brief?---We discussed issues relating to the business. We talked about safety, quality and productivity and what my requirements were for those people, pertaining to those three points.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XN MR WOOD
PN2646
Under the discussion about productivity did the question of the CC measure come up?---The CC measure came up as part of that discussion and we had some talk about that as well as work rates.
PN2647
What did you say in relation to the question of the CC measure when it came up?---Basically the measure was an indicator on their performance and more to concentrate on through-put or work rate per day, basically the - and around behaviours, around productivity and your work rates.
PN2648
Did you make any comment about the extent to which you have to work hard each day?---Yes, that was the behaviour that I was referring to, just a day's work, work hard each day, all day, and focus on what's in your control.
PN2649
What was the reaction to your comments when you told them to work hard each day?---I felt it was quite good. It was a simplistic approach that I take with managing my people and gives them something that they can aspire to, something to work towards, perhaps as part of their commitment to the company.
PN2650
Did you also have a conversation about contractors that day?---I explained to them that contractors were something that we were going to see in the business, and sharing the workload that we have with them, in line with having them used to having contractors out there and working side by side with them.
PN2651
You say that the reaction to what you said about the CC measure was good. Have you had any complaints made to you since that time, 17 February 2004, about the CC measure?---None whatsoever, no.
PN2652
What do you say about whether or not the issue has settled down since that time?---I feel that it has settled down. It doesn't seem to be an issue at all any more, I think because they understand the measure and are able to explain it better than I can at most times.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XN MR WOOD
PN2653
I understand that there was some redundancies in your area in April/May 2003 and August/September 2003. What was the impact of the CC measure on those redundancies, if any?---I don't feel that there was any. The redundancy process is more around behaviours and focuses on some criteria - - -
PN2654
MR REITANO: I'm really sorry to do this, but I simply cannot hear the witness. It's either his volume or my hearing, but whichever one it is, I cannot hear him.
PN2655
THE COMMISSIONER: Can you speak up a bit more, Mr Hanlon?---My apologies, I will try and talk a little bit louder. As I was saying, the redundancy process focuses on behaviours, there's five criteria that they look at, and I feel the CC measure has very, very little impact on that.
PN2656
MR WOOD: There's been some evidence given in the Commission about the extent to which CTs work, don't take their allocated lunch break and work overtime on an unpaid basis to make sure that they meet the CC requirement. Dealing with unpaid overtime first, what do you say about the extent to which CTs work unpaid overtime?---I basically don't think that they do work unpaid overtime.
PN2657
Why do you say that?---All the CTs in my area know that if they work back or if they are required to work extra time outside their normal hours they are to claim overtime. I don't feel that anyone is doing that. We at times, will allow flexibility of hours depending on doctor's appointments and so forth and that is not classed as overtime, that is just adjustment of hours. It is a give and take situation and we help them with their work and family diversity.
PN2658
What would you do if you found out that people were feeling that they had to take, they were working overtime on an unpaid basis?---If this happening I would be very disturbed and I would be letting them know it is unnecessary to do so.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XN MR WOOD
PN2659
Dealing with people working through allocated lunch break, what's the time for lunch break in your area?---It can range from half an hour to 50 minutes.
PN2660
Are you aware of any CTs working through their allocated lunch break, half an hour to 50 minutes?---None whatsoever. They might adjust their lunch breaks in line with what suits them for the day but they don't work through it, they still have a break.
PN2661
What would you do if you found out that several CTs in your area were working through their lunch breaks and not taking their lunch?---We would obviously talk to them. It doesn't go in line with the award or the agreement and the fact that they need to take that break for health and safety reasons as well as obviously personal reasons.
PN2662
Has any CC complained to you that they are working unpaid overtime or working through their lunch?---None.
PN2663
Has any team leader who reports to you that CTs are complaining to him or her that they are working unpaid overtime or working through lunch?---No Sir, not at all.
PN2664
If you are in receipt of such a complaint what would you do in relation to CTs working through lunch?---As I said earlier we would obviously talk to that person and ensure that they didn't carry on with that practice. As I've said they need to have their break as per the agreement.
PN2665
You are ultimately responsible for discipline in your area Mr Hanlon?---That's correct.
PN2666
Has anyone of the 130 odd CTs that work in your area in the time that the CC measure been in place been terminated for failing to obtain a certain number of CC points?---No Sir, none at all.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XN MR WOOD
PN2667
Has any of them been warned or put on a performance plan indicating that termination is a possibility if they don't improve their points?---No there has not been anyone put on anything like that.
PN2668
I hand you a document that has been tendered in the proceedings Mr Hanlon, it's Telstra 1, it is the minutes of a meeting at Tamworth North. Can you explain to the Commission what that is?---This basically is the minutes to a team brief held at Tamworth North on that date.
PN2669
As I understand things, it hasn't been contested, the roll out for the CC measure in the regional services area occurred earlier than for the metro services area and occurred around May 2003, is that right?---That's approximately correct yes.
PN2670
Are you aware of team briefs, apart from the one that is in front of you, that is the one on 5, I think 6 May - - -
PN2671
MR REITANO: I object that is not what is before him.
PN2672
MR WOOD: Apart from the evidence that you have given today of the events that occurred on 17 February and the events described in the document in front of you, are you aware of other team briefs where explanations were made to CTs about the CC measure since May 2003?---There were other briefs held within my area concerning the same issues, yes.
PN2673
And how many of those were there in that period of roughly 15 months since the roll out in May 2003?---We generally have a team brief scheduled that runs every six weeks for all the teams in the New England area.
PN2674
What are you able to say, if anything, about the extent to which the CC measure was discussed in those team briefs?---It was discussed extensively in all team briefs and ongoing after that with one on one and ride on's and in general conversation. That went on for some time after that as well.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XN MR WOOD
PN2675
Thank you. That's the end of my examination.
PN2676
PN2677
MR REITANO: Mr Hanlon, you have no idea what was discussed at any of the team briefs that you have referred to in your evidence because you weren't at them were you?---I wasn't at the briefs. I have an idea that indicated what was discussed at the team briefs by feedback from my team leaders.
PN2678
You are relying on what other people told you about what took place?---That's correct.
PN2679
Right, other than that you have no idea of what was discussed extensively or otherwise at those team briefs, correct?---The details I am not aware of, I trust my team leaders to roll that process out.
PN2680
Similarly, you have no idea what occurred at 6 May 2003 meeting that you have been shown the minutes of because you weren't there either, correct?---That's correct I wasn't at that team brief.
PN2681
That briefing was conducted by I think it is Mr Scouse, is that right?---That's correct.
PN2682
Did you get a report from Mr Scouse about what happened at that meeting on 6 May 2003?---Directly no. I had a report from all my team leaders in a general conference call on how their briefs went.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2683
But you didn't get a direct report from Mr Scouse about what happened at the meeting at 6 May 2003?---No, not a direct report.
PN2684
Did anyone tell you about how that meeting was conducted on 6 May 2003?---I had no feedback on the meeting itself positive or negative.
PN2685
Now can you tell me obviously CC points weren't considered in the redundancy round of April/May 2003 because they really hadn't been rolled out until May 2003, correct?---That would be right, yes.
PN2686
So there wouldn't have been anything to consider?---Sorry, the question again?
PN2687
You wouldn't be able to consider CC points, there wouldn't have been anything to consider about CC points at that time, correct?---Sorry, in relation to what Sir?
PN2688
CC points in respect of redundancies?---At that time no, and I would like to say they weren't directly related to the redundancies anyway.
PN2689
Well I'm going to come to that and you like others are eager to tell me that, I'm going to come to that. In August and September 2003 CC points were in place?---That's correct.
PN2690
And there was a round of redundancies at that time, correct?---That's correct.
PN2691
Did you have any overriding role in who was to be selected for redundancy, I'll give you the alternative, was that left to other people?---The selection for redundancy went via the Telstra selection process and that process is followed by the team leaders and signed off by myself as the manager for the area.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2692
That's interesting. Did other people undertake the process of making the selections for who would be made redundant?---Team leaders were involved with that process.
PN2693
You didn't undertake the process of selecting who would be made redundant?---I was involved with the process to the extent of where I fit into that process.
PN2694
Very slowly and it may take some time. But my question was, you, Mr Hanlon, did not select who would be made redundant; correct?---That is correct. The process does the selection.
PN2695
The team leaders were the people who selected who would be made redundant; correct?---The team leaders follow the process of the Telstra selection process - the redundancy agreement process - and the final section is done in consultation with me as well.
PN2696
The team leaders were the people who put forward the names of the people that would be made redundant in August/September 2003; correct?---The team leaders put forward the results of the process followed through all the members of their teams.
PN2697
Did you tell the team leaders that they were not to take into consideration in making that selection individual scores of CC points for particular employees?---As I said earlier, the CC points were only a small part of the selection process and applies behavioural criterias.
PN2698
Did you have some difficulty understanding the question I asked you?---Could you ask me again then, Sir, please?
PN2699
Perhaps you can answer the very last question I asked you. Did you have some difficulty understanding the question?---I felt that I had answered it to what I understood.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2700
I will ask it again and could you listen carefully to it because I am really not interested in anything other than an answer to my question. Did you tell the team leaders not to take into account individual employee's scores on CC points when selecting people for redundancy?---The CC points were used as part of the process and that was one of the indicators within the behaviours and I told the team leaders to use all the indicators that the behaviours show as far as the process is concerned.
PN2701
Was it the case that you told the team leaders to take into account the individual scores of persons on CC points for the purpose of selecting who would be made redundant?---The team leaders were advised to use individual scores as part of the criteria of the selection process. It is within one of the behaviours of that selection process and a small part of it.
PN2702
So that if we had three employees - and we will use the three that we used in this case, Smith, Reitano and Wood - scoring 5.5, 4 and 2.8 respectively that was a factor that they took into account in deciding who would be made redundant. That is, that Smith scored 5.5, Reitano scored 4 and that Wood scored 2.8?---That is a small factor in one of the criteria of the five in the selection process.
PN2703
So that was a factor that they took into account?---That was a small factor in that process.
PN2704
They took into account other factors; correct?---That's true.
PN2705
What were they?---Off the top of my head I could not recall all the criterias. There are five criterias in the Telstra selection process and within each of the criteria there are different things to consider with the behaviours within that criteria. For example, being safety, their attitude to work, and things like that.
PN2706
Did you tell the supervisors that the CC points should be a very small factor in their decision-making process?---That's correct.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2707
Is that all you said to them? That CC points should be a small factor or did you say anything else about CC points?---What I said was they were a small factor and you must consider all the different aspects of each criteria within the selection process.
PN2708
And that was it? That was all you said to them?---That is a fairly short and simple way of putting what I have told them.
PN2709
You gave them no further explanation as to how they should weigh up CC points in considering all the factors of choosing people for redundancy?---We focused on the behaviours around the Telstra selection process. The indicators, for example, CC points was a small area of that. They had to consider all the points. It was done properly and fairly in accordance with the redundancy agreement.
PN2710
I am sure it was, Sir. Did you say anything else to them about how they should weigh up CC points in selecting people for redundancy?---It was just a small part in the process. Like I said before.
PN2711
Once again, Sir, perhaps I can focus your attention on my question.
PN2712
MR WOOD: The witness tried to answer the question. It was a fair answer to the question.
PN2713
MR REITANO: Well, I'd invite Mr Wood to get a response.
PN2714
THE COMMISSIONER: No, I don't think it was responsive to the question.
PN2715
MR REITANO: I was going to ask it in a different way, anyway.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2716
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, well do that.
PN2717
MR REITANO: Because obviously the witness has some difficulty understanding that form of question. I am not being critical of him. I think it is the way I asked it.
PN2718
Can you tell us what you said to the team managers in respect of the use of CC points in selecting people for redundancy? What were the words you used?---As I said a while ago. The CC measure in concern to the redundancy agreement is only a small part of the measure of one criteria and is not focused on, on its own. You have to consider all aspects of their work ethic and so forth, as per the Telstra selection process.
PN2719
And is that all you said?---Is that concerning the CC measure?
PN2720
Yes?---That is exactly right.
PN2721
Now, can I ask you how many supervisors did you speak to?---All of my supervisors which is nine.
PN2722
Did you give them any documents about the process of selecting people for redundancy?---Yes, I did.
PN2723
Did you give them any documents about the use of CC points in the selection process for redundancy?---No, not concerning CC points.
PN2724
There was no document that you gave them that told them how CC points should figure in the equation of selecting people for redundancy?---The documentation that was given to them was around the Telstra selection process and the right process to follow.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2725
And that documentation says nothing about the use of CC points in selecting people for redundancy; does it?---Not specifically CC points. It is more around the key indicators and KRAs.
PN2726
It says nothing about the use of CC points?---It doesn't say CC points, no.
PN2727
And it doesn't say that they are to be a factor in the decision to make people redundant; does it?---That's correct.
PN2728
So to an employee who was going through a redundancy exercise the documents that were provided for supervisors would be misleading insofar as they didn't tell you that a factor that would be considered is your CC points; correct?---The documents didn't have CC points on them.
PN2729
And they would be misleading because, as you have told us, they were a factor that was taken into account in selection for redundancy; correct?---I disagree with that, Sir.
PN2730
Which part? I would invite you to tell me why you disagree with it?---I don't feel that the documentation was misleading. It indicated that all areas would be looked at as far as their work and their KRAs would be part of that factor.
PN2731
Say it all you like, but at the end of the day you agree with me that CC points as being a factor are not identified in the document; correct.
PN2732
MR WOOD: The witness has been asked that. He has been asked that twice. He has now been asked for a third time. Really.
PN2733
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2734
MR REITANO: I press the question. I am entitled to ask the witness a question until I get a responsive answer to it.
PN2735
THE COMMISSIONER: Well you did. Haven't you; earlier.
PN2736
MR REITANO: All right I don't press it now if the Commission is of that view.
PN2737
Sir, when you talk about the documentation that was given to supervisors you mention this one document that you have told us about now. What there anything else given to them by way of documents?---There was quite a lot of documents which detailed the process to follow with the Telstra selection process. That breaks it down into five criteria of the process and the factors on how to determine or make a judgement on those criteria.
PN2738
Is that a convenient time?
PN2739
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course it is.
PN2740
MR REITANO: I thought I might finish him before lunch time.
PN2741
THE COMMISSIONER: If you are not going to, no.
PN2742
MR REITANO: I think I will be a little while.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2743
THE COMMISSIONER: All right, thank you, Mr Reitano. That is a convenient time. We will adjourn. Don't discuss your evidence over lunch, thank you very much, Mr Hanlon. The matter is adjourned to 2.15 pm.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.48pm]
RESUMED [2.20pm]
PN2744
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Riatano?
PN2745
MR RIATONO: Mr Hanlon can you tell me, what do you understand the benefits of the CC System over the Best in Town System to be?---I feel the CC System gives a fair indication of the actual work that the people in the field do and therefore is a lot fairer to them and better for their understanding, which is why it was produced in the first place as a result of feedback from the CTs.
PN2746
Why is it better?---It relates more to indicating what work they do in a day, a week or monthly basis and where the bit measure was a lot more complicated and not understood by the field whatsoever.
PN2747
The bit measure measured exactly the same thing. What work they did in a day, month or week. Sorry, day, week or month, didn't it?---It was a measure of the same - along the same lines but calculated differently and therefore not as easy to understand.
PN2748
Is that the only reason you say it's fairer, because it's easier to understand?---No, I feel it indicates more in reality what the people in the field do and therefore they have a better understanding of it and therefore look at the measure themselves and see how they are going for themselves where they never could have that understanding of the bit measure.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2749
Both measures measure what work is actually done. Sorry, I withdraw that. Both are measures of what work you have done aren't they?---Both those measures although different were the measure of the work done by the CTs.
PN2750
Indeed, the CC System to the extent that it is a measure of what work is done, does not measure work that is not completed. Correct?---It does not measure completed work at the end of the day, that's correct.
PN2751
And to that extent, it is unfair, isn't it?---On a daily basis, you may say that but as the measure is looked at weekly, monthly or whatever, it averages out and quite often the CTs will get the same job back the next day and spend a smaller amount of time on it and therefore get increased measure the next day.
PN2752
To the extent that it does not measure work that is done that is incomplete, it is unfair, isn't it?---I don't believe so, no.
PN2753
You disagree with that proposition?---I don't think it's unfair. No.
PN2754
All right, and I put to you that it is, and you disagree with that?---I don't think it's unfair.
PN2755
Right. Similarly, if people work through their lunch hour or work unauthorised times, it in an unreal way, inflates their score, doesn't it?---Firstly, we shouldn't have anyone working through their lunch hour and I don't believe they are and the score is - as I said, reflects the work they do in a day.
PN2756
Well, do you agree with me that the work that a person does in a day includes work that they have not completed?---That is part of their day's work. That's right.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2757
And the CC measure does not measure that work at all, does it?---The CC measure does not measure work that hasn't been completed. That's correct.
PN2758
Right. So don't tell me that's it's a measure of the work they do in a day because you agree with the proposition that where there's incomplete work it just doesn't measure it at all. Correct?---It only doesn't measure incompleted work.
PN2759
Right. Now, when people - if, if, I'm not telling you that people do, I'm telling you if someone were to work through their half an hour or 50 minute lunch break as you put it earlier, that would - and completed more work, their CC score would be unreally inflated wouldn't it?---It would increase their CC score. I wouldn't say it inflates it terribly.
PN2760
And it would be unfair to people who did take their lunch break, wouldn't it?---If you were comparing them. Yes, that's a possibility.
PN2761
Similarly, the measure does not measure the actual time that a person might spend travelling, correct?---The measure does measure the time spent travelling.
PN2762
No, I didn't ask you that question, sir. Please try and listen to my question. My question was, it does not measure the actual. I was very careful to put that word in for a reason. The actual time that a person spends travelling, does it?---My understanding of the measure is the measure's a travel time pertaining to each job and that is calculated on an average basis. So I feel it averages out over the day's work.
PN2763
It does not measure the actual time that a person spends travelling, does it?---The actual time, as in minutes is not measured. There's a point score against the minutes per travel that is calculated and it can go positive or negative, either way for the CT.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2764
Is there, sorry. Have you finished?---Yes. Thank you.
PN2765
Sorry. Is there something in my question that you don't understand?---I understand the question.
PN2766
Right. Well, perhaps I'll ask it again and you try and answer it. It does not measure the actual time that a person spends travelling, does it?---Can you explain what you mean by actual time, please?
PN2767
What, you don't understand actual time?
PN2768
MR WOOD: Well, that's just so unnecessary. I mean, really, the witness is trying his best. He doesn't need to be attacked like this.
PN2769
MR RIATONO: My friend can no doubt make those submissions when I hear his submissions about Mr Costa, with respect to it. I'll make some submissions when I hear his submissions about Mr Costa with respect to it. I'll make some submissions about this gentleman's evidence as well. It's not an appropriate time for those submissions to be made now. The question I asked was a fairly simple one in ordinary English. Actual time is not a complicated concept. It's capable of readily being understood.
PN2770
Now, is there something in my question you don't understand?---I'm trying to give you an answer and to give you a good answer for it, I need to understand what you mean by actual time.
PN2771
I don't want a good answer, I want a truthful one. Do you understand the phrase actual time?---Actual time in minutes is the period from A to B. I understand what that means.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2772
Yes. The length of time it takes to walk from point A or to drive from point A to point B when one looks at one's watch at each point and then works out how many minutes, hours, days, weeks or months have elapsed in between. Do you understand that?---I understand that, sir.
PN2773
Right. The CC measure does not take into account the actual time that's been spent travelling, does it?---In some cases, it would underestimate the time. In other cases, it would overestimate the time. So, yes I would agree, it doesn't measure the actual time.
PN2774
The answer to my question is, it does not measure the actual time spent travelling?---In the way - in the context you've put, yes that's correct.
PN2775
Right, and you agree with me when I say that if a person spends - I withdraw that. You agree with me that it could work unfairly because it doesn't measure the actual time spent travelling, don't you?---Yes, sir.
PN2776
Now, could I just ask you, have you got your statement there with you?---I do. Yes.
PN2777
In paragraph 8 - I want to use this as an example because I think you've done this a number of times in your statement. In paragraph 8, you say:
PN2778
Further I understand all team leaders -
PN2779
And you go on and then say something. Do you see that?---That's correct. Yes I do.
PN2780
When you say, I understand something in that sentence, you understand that because other people have told you about that. It wasn't because you were there. Is that correct?---I wasn't there in all cases. That's correct. You weren't there in any cases, were you?---I've been with team leaders when they've addressed the CC understanding .....
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2781
You don't say that in paragraph A. You simply say you don't understand all team leaders to have addressed?---That's correct.
PN2782
And that's because you've relied on what other people have told you?---In some cases.
PN2783
All right. You say again in paragraph 5 about six lines down, this document, which I now understand to have been distributed - once again that's because other people have told you that not because you did it yourself. Correct?---No, that's not correct. I actually distributed the documents to my team leaders via email and I know it was sent to each one of them.
PN2784
Right. Well, where did you get your understanding about it having been distributed to all ASMs and all team leaders nationally?---Received an email which included, as far as my New South Wales area was concerned, all the ASMs.
PN2785
Yes?---So, nationally, I agree with your point, sir. I do not know about nationally.
PN2786
You have no idea?---I do not know about nationally. That's right, too.
PN2787
Yes. Why did you say in your affidavit, you understood that it had been done nationally. I understand it's been done nationally because it was a roll out nationally across Telstra.
PN2788
That's the only reason that you understand that?---That's correct.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2789
Do I understand your evidence is this, so long as people work a hard honest day's work their CC points will have nothing to do with the termination of their employment?---As I have said before, the CC points is a small part of termination to be used in that area, a hard day's work I said would, in relation to CC points, the points would look after themselves. The behaviour behind the points is the hard day at work.
PN2790
Yes, can you listen to my question, please, I am really only interests in answers to my questions, not to what you think I am asking you. Do I understand your evidence in your statement to be that so long as people put in a hard honest day's work, then CC points won't be taken into account in relation to any decision that is made to terminate their employment?---That is correct.
PN2791
Whether it be for disciplinary reasons or for selection for redundancy, they are the two possibilities I want to focus on, it will not be taken into account?---As far as selection for redundancy it is not taken into account at all.
PN2792
Right?---If there was a performance issue around productivity it could be taken into account.
PN2793
Right, so what you have said in paragraph 10 of your statement is in fact incorrect?---This statement was made in context to the CC points only and, as I said earlier, no, you don't - - -
PN2794
No, in your statement you say:
PN2795
As long as a person puts in a hard honest day's work, a communication technician, then the CC point score does not become a factor.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2796
?---In the context of that statement that is what I said.
PN2797
So as long as persons, communicate technicians, people not CTs, communications technicians put in a hard day's work, then they have nothing to worry about, irrespective of what their CC point score might be in terms of disciplinary action against them?---That is correct.
PN2798
Because it just won't have anything to do with disciplinary action that was taken against them, as long as they are putting in a hard day's work?---That is right.
PN2799
Now, can I just ask you some questions specifically about Mr Wale, firstly, how long have you been someone who has had something to do with Mr Wale's supervision or management?---As I said, I have been ASM for about the last 22 months.
PN2800
So is it about that long that you have dealt with him in that position?---As far as his management is concerned.
PN2801
Yes, okay and have you spoken to Mr Wale from time to time?---Yes, I have.
PN2802
And you know his work performance and the like fairly well?---His personal work performance is managed by his team leader, so I have not got an intimate knowledge of his work performance.
PN2803
It is fair to say that you do not have a day to day relationship with him?---That is correct.
PN2804
That is your, at least one step removed from that?---That is correct.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2805
So you don't know, for example, that he considers himself to be computer illiterate, do you?---I happen to know that fact through conversations that I have had with Russell.
PN2806
Sorry, could you say that again?---I happen to know that he consider himself computer illiterate due to conversations that I have had with him in the past.
PN2807
Yes, when did you have those conversations?---I don't remember exact dates, it is times that I have - - -
PN2808
Earlier this year, late last year? I am not going to hold you to a specific date?---There has been numerous occasions late last year, early this year that I have had discussions with him.
PN2809
Before the last month you were aware of that?---Yes, I would say so.
PN2810
You see, in paragraph 20 you refer to the fact that:
PN2811
Mr Wale has access to the internet.
PN2812
But you do not refer to the fact that you were aware that he considers himself to be computer illiterate, do you?---I don't refer to that fact, no.
PN2813
No, it would be a little bit misleading if one read that without knowing that Mr Wale was computer illiterate, correct?---I don't believe so, sir, the statement is made in the fact that anyone has access to things on the internet whether by their entry into the system or via support from somebody else.
PN2814
I see, so what you are suggesting is that it is not misleading because Mr Wale could have rung you up and asked you to look on a computer for him?---Or anyone else in the team.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON XXN MR REITANO
PN2815
Okay, I will pass it on. Have you read Mr Wale's statement in these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN2816
What is Mr Wale's team leader's name?---His current team leader is John Warhurst.
PN2817
Right, thank you very much. He would have a much better idea, I think you would agree with this, of Mr Wale's day to day work performance and the like of things that occur on a day to day basis?---That is correct.
PN2818
PN2819
MR WOOD: I just want to ask you a couple of matters in re-examination, Mr Hanlon. You were asked a question about paragraph of your witness statement where you say:
PN2820
I understand all team leaders to have addressed the benefits of the CC system over the best in town BIT system and the comparative operation of the two systems.
PN2821
You were asked a question about whether or not you, your understanding came from what you were told by the team leaders or in some other way and you were explaining that one of the other ways you came to that understanding was through team briefs. What were these team briefs and how many of those did you participate in?---The understanding comes from team briefs with my own team leaders and also, visiting the team leaders conduct themselves with their CTs. I would also like to say that from feed back from the CTs themselves when I do visit them in the field, they will ask me the same questions at that period of time and I was able to support the team leaders and help the CTs with their understanding of the measure.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON RXN MR WOOD
PN2822
Just dealing with that second measure that you talked about, not team briefs, with the team leaders and not direct communication with the CTs in the field but the team briefs conducted by the team leaders of which you were present, how often did that occur?---I have nine teams and we have our team briefs over three week periods, so I at least get to two team briefs per team per year.
PN2823
You were also asked the question about Mr Wale's capacity to access the internet and you said that he could get support from anyone else in the team, are there are other people that he could get support from, apart from other people in this team?---Yes, there is, he has obviously support from his team leader, the field service team leader support person is another avenue.
PN2824
Can you just explain that position for me, please?---That position is a support to the team leaders, it is basically an operations manager from my area, he is office based.
PN2825
What is his name?---His name is David Workman.
PN2826
And what are his skills?---He is an ex-team leader, he is highly skilled in the computer side functioning of looking after the operations and has access to the internet and often supports the CTs as far as accessing the internet and things like that.
PN2827
Do you know whether or not there are any restrictions upon any CTs access to Mr Workman?---None whatsoever.
PN2828
There is nothing further in re-examination, Mr Commissioner.
PN2829
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Hanlon, thank you for your evidence, you are free to go?---Thank you, sir.
**** NEIL ROSS HANLON RXN MR WOOD
PN2830
PN2831
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Wood?
PN2832
PN2833
MR WOOD: Mr Lilburne, could you face the Commission and give the Commission your full name?---Mark Spencer Lilburne.
PN2834
What's your work address, Mr Lilburne?---3 Metford Road, East Maitland, New South Wales.
PN2835
Are you employed by Telstra Corporation Limited?---Yes, I am.
PN2836
In what position are you so employed?---I am an area services manager for the mid-coast region in New South Wales.
PN2837
I understand Mr Kingsley Searle comes within that area?---Yes, he does.
PN2838
Have you made a statement in these proceedings, Mr Lilburne?---Yes, I have.
PN2839
Would you have that in front of you?---Yes, I do.
PN2840
Have you had an opportunity to read it before coming into the witness box here today?---Yes, I have.
PN2841
I understand there is some small changes to the numbers in paragraph 3 that you wish to make?---That's correct.
PN2842
I understand you no longer have 130 CCs in your area but 175?---Approximately 175, yes.
PN2843
I understand that you have got 10 teams, not seven?---That's correct.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XN MR WOOD
PN2844
So if we delete 130 and insert 175 and delete seven and insert 10 in the fourth line at paragraph 3, that sentence is then accurate?---Yes.
PN2845
With those two amendments is your statement true and correct?---Yes, it is.
PN2846
I tender the statement.
PN2847
PN2848
MR WOOD: I want to ask you some questions about things that has been given in evidence from Mr Searle, Mr Lilburne. I understand - could the witness be shown exhibit Telstra 2, please. Have you seen that document before, Mr Lilburne?---Yes, I have.
PN2849
Can you tell the Commission what it is?---It is a pinpoint performance plan.
PN2850
What involvement did you have in that plan?---No involvement at all.
PN2851
Are you aware of the basis upon which Mr Searle was placed on that pinpoint performance plan?---Yes, I am.
PN2852
What was that?---To try and improve the CC measure.
PN2853
What measures were implemented to try and improve Mr Searle's CCs measure?---A series of briefings to mid-coast staff was implemented as a result to try and help Mr Searle improve his measure.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XN MR WOOD
PN2854
Were those briefings successful in improving Mr Searle's measure?---Yes.
PN2855
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't understand that. You had a series of briefings of all staff to help Mr Searle?---A series of briefings for all staff involved in ADSL in-store of which Mr Searle does, and it was aimed at helping them improve their knowledge so they could do their job more efficiently.
PN2856
But not specifically, Mr Searle?---No, that was a result of the issues that Mr Searle raised with his team leader with this pinpoint performance plan.
PN2857
Thank you.
PN2858
MR WOOD: Could the witness now be shown exhibit Telstra 3. Have you seen that document before, Mr Lilburne?---Yes, I have.
PN2859
Can you explain where you saw it?---It was actually sent to me by Kingsley Searle's team leader, Alan Walsh.
PN2860
Did Mr Walsh tell you where he got the document from?---Mr Walsh, did tell me where he got the document from.
PN2861
Where was that?---It was on a productivity noticeboard at the Port Macquarie depot when Mr Walsh was the team leader.
PN2862
Is that the depot from which Mr Searle works?---Yes, it is.
PN2863
Has Mr Walsh forwarded to you any complaints made by Mr Searle about the operation of the CC measure?---No, he hasn't.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XN MR WOOD
PN2864
Has Mr Searle or Mr Walsh passing on Mr Searle's complaints, mainly complaints to you about working either unpaid overtime or working through lunch?---No, he hasn't.
PN2865
If such complaints were made to you either directly from Mr Searle or by Mr Walsh, what would you do?---I would follow up on those complaints to determine the truth behind them and what I could do to address those issues.
PN2866
I understand that in your area you haven't engaged in any redundancies since the CC measure has been in place. Is that correct?---No, I think there was a redundancy process.
PN2867
When was that?---It was finalised towards the end of 2003.
PN2868
To what extent were the CCs measures used in the process?---CC measure only formed a very minor part of that process under the overall productivity.
PN2869
Can the witness be shown the amended draft order in the proceedings which is exhibit CEPU2. That's the copy of the order that the CEPU is seeking in these proceedings, Mr Lilburne, and in clause 3.1 and 3.2 deal with the extent to which the CC measure can be used in a variety of processes, secondly, to be communicated. Dealing with clause 3.2, first, what do you say about the order proposed by the CEPU if anything?---To me it seems that if we weren't allowed to communicate the score then there would probably be no purpose in having the score available to us.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XN MR WOOD
PN2870
What about clause 3.1?---My view is that we do need to have a productivity measure and without a productivity measure we can't effectively manage the performance of our people and CC at the moment provides the best indication of a productive measure and to remove it means that there is one aspect of our business that we can't be addressing.
PN2871
Do you have Mr Searle's statement in reply with you, Mr Lilburne?---Yes, I do.
PN2872
Could you turn to paragraph 9 of that statement please. There's a reference there to you attending a team brief in Port Macquarie at which Mr Searle was present. What is the frequency with which you attend team briefs of teams in your area?---I do try to attend as many team briefs as possible, and as much as my role will allow me to attend. I can say that in the last six months in my area I have attended 12 team briefs in total, in my area.
PN2873
How often do the team briefs take place?---Team briefs are held on average every six weeks.
PN2874
Do you recall the team brief that occurred at Port Macquarie in May 2004 at which you were present?---Yes, I do.
PN2875
What happened at that team brief?---The team brief progressed as per the agenda, with Mr Walsh leading the discussion from the agenda. I was basically there to observe and be available to answer any questions from anyone present at that meeting.
PN2876
Were questions asked?---Not so much questions asked as statements made.
PN2877
What were the nature of these statements?---The nature of the statements from a couple of the attendees at the meeting were that they still felt that the CC measure wasn't being applied correctly in all the situations.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XN MR WOOD
PN2878
What did you say to that?---I tried to give an explanation to the team that the actual, on-the-day score is irrelevant to me as a measure and should also be irrelevant to them as a measure.
PN2879
Did you say irrelevant or relevant?---The on-the-day score is irrelevant to them as a measure.
PN2880
As in i-r-r?---Yes.
PN2881
What else did you say?---I then went on to explain how I used the CC measure and also how I expected my team leaders to use the CC measure.
PN2882
And how was that?---Basically as a - it is a measure and the methodology that we apply to that measure is to look for opportunities to try and improve that measure on a continual basis.
PN2883
Did you make any comments about the need to record events in diaries?---Yes, I did.
PN2884
What did you say?---I said that if you feel, if you have a reason for a low CC measure and you've diarised it, or that you should diarise it, so that if the team leader does raise any questions about your CC performance, that it's easily explained and the team leader will be able to accept that explanation.
PN2885
What was the reaction to your answers to the, what you called statements made by the CTs at this meeting?---At the end of the meeting at least one CT said to me, "Thank you for explaining that to me because until that point I didn't have a proper understanding of how the CC measure was being applied".
PN2886
Were there any issues you were asked to take away from that meeting?---There were some issues I was asked to take away from that meeting but as far as I can recall none of them related to CC measure.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XN MR WOOD
PN2887
Has anyone - have you dismissed anyone in your area since the CC measure came in, in around the middle of last year for reasons related to the CC measure?---No, I haven't.
PN2888
I showed you the pinpoint performance plan or action plan of Mr Searle. Is there any difference in your mind between that plan and a more serious plan under the Telstra disciplinary process?---Yes, there is.
PN2889
What is that?---This plan is not a disciplinary measure. This plan is just put in place so that both the team leader and the CT can understand what they're trying to achieve. If this plan was not successful in achieving what they set out to do, then it may well be that we would embark on a disciplinary course of action that may involve formalised performance plans being put in place.
PN2890
Out of the 175 CTs in your area has anyone been put on a formalised performance plan as a result of CC measures?---Not to my knowledge.
PN2891
Nothing further in examination-in-chief.
PN2892
PN2893
MR REITANO: When was the last time you spoke to Mr Walsh?---I spoke to Mr Walsh on Thursday morning.
PN2894
You don't know of any reason why he could not either attend at your solicitor's office and prepare a statement or come to this Commission to give evidence, do you?---No, I don't.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2895
And he is the direct supervisor of Mr Searle, isn't he?---Yes, he is.
PN2896
If he gave a briefing to Mr Searle about the way in which CC points worked, he would be able to come here and tell the Commission about that briefing; correct?---If you gave him the briefing, yes.
PN2897
You weren't in attendance at any time when Mr Searle was given a briefing about CC points, were you?---No, I wasn't.
PN2898
If Mr Searle gave evidence a couple of days ago in this Commission that after he was given his pinpoint performance plan he started working through his lunchtime or working unauthorised hours, what would you intend to do about that situation?---I would probably raise it with Mr Walsh, to say can he please investigate for me.
PN2899
What is he required to investigate?---He would be required to investigate Mr Searle's reasons for feeling that he needs to work overtime through his lunch break and after hours.
PN2900
You're aware, aren't you, from your general involvement in this matter that one of the complaints that some people have raised is that people are working, I'll just limit it to through their lunch hour in order to ensure they get their points? You're aware that that's a complaint that's been made, aren't you?---Yes, I am.
PN2901
And you're aware that that complaint has been made for some considerable time, correct?---I'm aware of it since I read the first statement that Kingsley Searle submitted.
PN2902
About, sometime in April or thereabouts?---That's correct.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2903
Since reading that what have you done as a manager to ensure that no one is working through their lunch hour in order to improve or achieve their CC points?---I haven't taken any action in regard to that. My stance is that no one is forced to work unpaid overtime.
PN2904
But you are happy for them - so long as they're not forced to work unpaid overtime, you are happy for them to work unpaid overtime?---At the end of the day if the CT decides to work unpaid overtime then that's entirely his decision. I will pay overtime to CTs who legitimately work overtime.
PN2905
But if one of the effects of the CC measure is that people are working unpaid overtime, as long as you don't consider that they're being forced to do so, you are happy to accept the benefit of having them perform that unpaid work; correct?---I would say overall that is correct.
PN2906
Thank you, sir.
PN2907
In paragraph 8 of your statement - sorry, can I just ask you, I'll do it in order. Can I ask you to look at paragraph 7 first?---Of my statement?
PN2908
Yes. The comprehensive rundown that you're aware of comes from not your attendance at such rundowns but from what the people reporting to you told you about those rundowns; is that right?---I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
PN2909
All right, let me read to you what you say in paragraph 7 so that we're together:
PN2910
As far as I am aware every communications technician in my area was provided with a "comprehensive" rundown of the workings and operations of the CC system.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2911
Can I just freeze it there for a second? That is because people who report to you told you that they gave communications technicians a rundown of the CC system; is that right?---That's correct.
PN2912
You weren't actually there listening to what communications technicians were told or witnessing what documents they were given in any such rundown; correct?---That's correct.
PN2913
So when you say it's a comprehensive rundown is that because you've embellished upon what people have told you or because have told you that they gave a rundown and you understood that to be comprehensive?---I understood it to be a comprehensive rundown.
PN2914
Right, because of what they'd told you about the rundown that they have conducted?---Yes.
PN2915
Or is it because when this affidavit was prepared someone suggested that you use the word comprehensive to describe the rundown?---No, that's not correct.
PN2916
Is comprehensive your word?---Yes.
PN2917
Similarly, with the one on ones that you refer to in the next part of the sentence, the discussions, you weren't present at any of those either; correct?---That's correct.
PN2918
So that's once again what other people are telling you happened; correct?---That's correct.
PN2919
Can I just ask you not to go to the next paragraph? In the second sentence you refer there to:
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2920
Further, I specifically state that any communications technician who has adequate explanations for any period for which their CC points average was lower than usual -
PN2921
and so on and so forth:
PN2922
- would have no further action of any sort taken against them with respect to those periods.
PN2923
What about those people who have inadequate explanations?---There may be a possibility that some action would be taken.
PN2924
You won't tell me in the witness box, as I understand it, that that could not take the form of disciplinary action; correct?---Eventually it could take the form of disciplinary action.
PN2925
Yes, but when you were asked in evidence-in-chief:
PN2926
Has anyone been dismissed because of the CC measure?
PN2927
You said:
PN2928
No, no one's been dismissed.
PN2929
You're not prepared to say that in the future no one will be dismissed because of their CC measure are you?---I couldn't exclude that totally.
PN2930
It's a distinct possibility?---Are you asking me to respond to that?
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2931
Yes?---I would say that it's a very remote possibility.
PN2932
Right. That would in part I suppose turn on the state of their diary in terms of what light it might cast upon the adequacy or otherwise of their explanation?---I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
PN2933
One of the things I think you said, and once again it's either in your statement or in answer to some questions that Mr Wood asked you or I am maybe confusing you with another witness, but I think that people were asked to diarise events that might affect their CC points; did you say that?---I did say that, yes.
PN2934
Right. So when it came to a person being confronted with the prospect of being dismissed because their CC points were down one matter that would be relevant would be the state of their diary?---Before it came to a situation where they faced dismissal there would have been a lot of actions gone in place before that.
PN2935
I'm not sure that that deals with my question because one of the things I'm asking you is that at the point at which we've arrived where we're considering dismissing a person because of their CC points as I understand it one thing that would be looked at would be the adequacy of their explanation for having pretty hopeless CC points; correct?---Yes.
PN2936
And that explanation will in turn often if not always turn upon what their diary might tell us; correct?---Initially the diary entries would be used to determine what might have been causing the issues.
PN2937
Right?---Ultimately the diary entries would not form a significant part of any disciplinary action that was going to be taken in regard to their CC measure.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2938
Is there any policy or procedure that you have circulated to your supervisors including Mr Walsh who is not giving evidence that says how CC points are to be dealt with as a disciplinary matter?---Not that I'm aware of.
PN2939
Is there any document, for example, and correct me if I am wrong because I don't think I've seen one in all the material, probably I've seen a little bit more material in terms of the case than you might have but maybe there's something somewhere else that ells me that a communications technician who has an adequate explanation for any periods in which their CC points average was lower than usual would have no further action taken against them?---There is no formal documentation, no.
PN2940
Is there any informal documents?---No, not that I'm aware of.
PN2941
There are no documents, thank you. Are there any people in your area working under your supervision directly or further down that tell me that the CC measure may be a tool that could give rise to the remote possibility of disciplinary action by way of termination of employment that will be used against communications technicians?---Can you re-state the question?
PN2942
Yes, can I do it in two parts; I remind you of your evidence that you said it was a remote possibility that dismissal could be a consequence of CC points. In that context is there any document that was circulated to the workforce upon the introduction of CC points or later that tells communications technicians about that possibility?---No, there's not.
PN2943
Similarly, the other side of the equation in respect of reasons for termination is there any document that has been circulated to your workforce that tells communications technicians that it may be a tool that's used in the selection process for redundancy?---Not specifically related to CC.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2944
I'll have a go at this one because I think you agreed with another proposition that I put to you that I didn't think you would so I'll ask you this one as well in case you may agree; do you consider that it would be fairer if people knew that CC points might be used as a thing that could give rise to the termination of their employment before they are facing the prospect of termination?---I would say that it would be made very clear to the CTs or the CT the measure that is being used in the disciplinary process prior to any dismissal taking place.
PN2945
But should they not know well in advance of any disciplinary process commencing that they are the rules of the game, as a matter of fairness?---Yes, they should but - I'll it at that.
PN2946
You wanted to say something. Don't let me stop you?---No, I'll leave it that.
PN2947
Yes, they should but they haven't been have they?---No, that's not what I was going to say.
PN2948
No, no, that's what I am saying?---No, there's no formal documentation saying that this will form part of any disciplinary process.
PN2949
No formal documentation and no informal documentation; correct?---That's correct.
PN2950
Nor are people told that their CC points measure might be taken into account in a decision that is made to terminate their employment by way of redundancy; correct?---As part of the redundancy process productivity is one of the - or effectiveness is one of the aspects that gets looked at.
PN2951
Are employees told in clear and unequivocal terms that a measure that will be taken into account respect of productivity will be their CC points measure in the process of selection for redundancy?---Can you ask that question again please?
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2952
Yes. I'm talking about the employees under your control, limit it that, not generally, under your control; are those employees told in clear and unequivocal terms anywhere that a factor that will be taken into account in measuring their productivity for the purpose of selecting people for redundancy is their CC points measure?---I would have to say if se were discussing the aspects that make up a redundancy process with CTs that they would be told that CC measure may form part of tha process.
PN2953
But they have not been told that hitherto, correct?---No, they haven't been told that because we haven't discussed redundancy processes recently.
PN2954
Once again, would it not be fairer for people to know that that will be a factor that will be taken into account should there be a redundancy process well in advance of that process commencing?---It would be fair for them to know that would be one of many factors that will get taken into account.
PN2955
The reason you say that is because fairness as you understand it would be in favour of a person knowing what the rules are before the game commences?---Yes.
PN2956
And indeed, it isn't just enough is it to tell the person as a matter of fairness that their CC points will be taken into account but further they should know how and in what way that measure will be taken into account in determining their future employment with Telstra, correct?---Yes, they should.
PN2957
And it would be unjust for people not to have access to all of the rules of the game in respect of CC points and how they relate to selection for redundancy well in advance of the selection for redundancy process beginning, correct?---That's correct.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2958
Thank you. Now, can I just ask you to go to something different in your statement. I think you said to Mr Wood when he asked you this questions, that when you addressed employees or when you dealt with some employees questions at that meeting that you were being asked about you said to them, on the day score, I can't remember whether you said should be or is, one of those two words or phrases, irrelevant, is that right?---Their on the day score, yes.
PN2959
So which one was it, should be irrelevant or is irrelevant?---Should be.
PN2960
Right. Therefore there is no need for people to know what their on the day score is because it is irrelevant, correct?---The way the measure is applied or used by myself is that we take it as an average, we don't place much significance on the daily score and that's the way that I explain it to my team leaders and it's also the way that I explain it to the CTs.
PN2961
Can I ask you to go to paragraph 15 of your statement now. Just refresh your memory about what you're talking about there, I just want to ask you about two questions about it. Have you read that?---Statement, paragraph 15 of my statement.
PN2962
How would you find out or how would you become aware of communications technicians cutting corners in your position?---We have a quality audit that gets conducted on a quarterly basis.
PN2963
Right?---By external auditors. We also have a monthly quality check that is done and carried out by the team leaders. The quarterly audit results are sent to me and if staff members were taking short cuts with quality I would become aware of that through a decline in the quality audit results.
PN2964
Right, is that the only way you would find out?---Plus through team leader feedback.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2965
How does that operate?---In my general discussion with the team leader it may well be that quality would be raised as an issue.
PN2966
Right?---And generally I ask how has your local audit gone or your local inspections and if the team leader is finding anything adverse usually I will ask him about it.
PN2967
So is that the only way you would find out about - those things you've just told me about, are the only way you find out about whether people were cutting corners?---I think in terms of safety measures we may see an increase in the number of health and safety incidents if people were taking short cuts in safety.
PN2968
So that's I think three ways you've told us you'd find out. Any others?---With safety it would also be via the feedback from my team leaders.
PN2969
How would the team leader become aware in order to provide that feedback?---The team leader could become aware by visiting CTs on site or doing work on with CTs or via information from staff members working for him.
PN2970
Let's just start with that one. A communications technician is unlikely to do something that they know to be blatantly unsafe whilst they have a team leader in their presence, correct?---That would be correct.
PN2971
Right. And most communications technicians if not all work alone, correct, as a general proposition?---As a general rule, yes.
PN2972
One circumstance that I think Mr Searle might have told us about might have been - I am not sure but when you've got to go under a house and it's dark and you can't go under there is you are working alone you have to have someone come along and accompany you or be there with you while you are doing that work. That's broadly correct isn't it?---If the CT perceives that there is some risk to him by entering there, yes.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2973
And one corner that someone might cut in those circumstances because they want to make sure that their CT points average is higher rather than lower and therefore they get the job, want to get the job done quicker rather than slower, is to just go under the house and not worry about having someone else there irrespective of what you think the risk is, correct?---If the CT felt that that was what he needed to do then, yes, he may well do that.
PN2974
Until someone goes under the house and is involved in an accident you wouldn't know nor would you have any way of finding out whether people were cutting that corner or not, correct?---I probably wouldn't have a way of finding out unless someone observed it and reported it to me.
PN2975
But that would be the only way you could find out, the only two ways, if there was an accident that resulted in something serious enough for it to e brought to your attention or, alternatively, if someone observed it?---That's correct.
PN2976
But you would agree that one thing that is a natural consequence of the CC points measure is that people will necessarily if they want to keep their score high be very tempted to cut those types of corners, correct?---If they felt that they needed to keep their score high, yes, correct.
PN2977
And one of the ways to avoid even the remotest possibility of disciplinary action or even the remotest possibility of being selected for redundancy is to keep their score high, correct?---In terms of avoiding disciplinary action for the CC measure they would be running a very high risk of invoking disciplinary action for another aspect by ignoring safety.
PN2978
But something that won't be disclosed unless they are unfortunate enough to be in an accident which either causes them serious injury or death or if someone reports it, correct?---No, I would say that's not strictly correct.
PN2979
Do you want to enlighten me sir?---They don't have to have faced catastrophic injury. If the CT was working under a house and injured himself in any way and reported it that would lead me to investigate or lead his team leader to investigate why was he working in an unsafe manner in the first place.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE XXN MR REITANO
PN2980
I am sorry, you cavil with my description of serious injury or death, I won't confine it so. Injury that is reported by particular communications technician or is so sufficiently serious that someone from the hospital rings and tells you, is that fair?---That may be a possibility.
PN2981
Have you told your team leaders and communications technicians under your control that any fear that they hold that if they performed below average for days or even weeks at a time in respect of their CC points scored, that they will be disciplined or selected first for redundancy and misplaced?---Can you repeat that question please.
PN2982
Have you told your team leaders or communications technicians that are ultimately under your supervision that if they perform below average for days or even weeks at a time in terms of their CC point score that they will be disciplined or have their employment terminated or be selected first for redundancy are misplaced?---I believe I made that clear at the Port Macquarie face to face meeting.
PN2983
Have you circulated any document to the workforce to that effect?---No, I haven't.
PN2984
Thank you.
PN2985
PN2986
MR WOOD: You were asked some questions about whether or not the daily SMS of the CC measure for that day was a fair measure of the work performed that day and you said in effect that you look at an average over a period. What is the length of the period that you look for in terms of an average?---Basically on a monthly basis.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE RXN MR WOOD
PN2987
I beg your pardon?---On a monthly basis.
PN2988
You were asked some questions also about whether or not you thought it was fair or fairer that a person who is facing a disciplinary process had documentation which indicated the extent to which the CC measure was used in any disciplinary process prior to the commencement of the disciplinary process, and I think your answer was, Yes, they should but. What were you going to say?---The same thing could be said for basically all the measures that are applied in the disciplinary process.
PN2989
You were asked some questions also about the extent to which you could observe CTs working unpaid overtime and working through their lunch breaks and those questions were predicated on whether or not CTs were forced to work unpaid overtime and work through their lunch break. Do you think CTs are being forced to work unpaid overtime and through their lunch breaks?
PN2990
MR REITANO: I object to that. I don't recall any such question being put that people were forced.
PN2991
MR WOOD: That was the basis of the question, as I recall it.
PN2992
THE COMMISSIONER: What do you say, Mr Reitano?
PN2993
MR REITANO: My understanding of what my friend put, and I'm relying on those next to me because I only heard the - but I understand that he said, Question were put to you that people were being forced to work unpaid overtime. No questions were put using the word "forced" at all.
PN2994
THE COMMISSIONER: It was used in some way. I'm now trying to recollect in precisely what way.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE RXN MR WOOD
PN2995
MR REITANO: It was used by the witness in a slightly different context but perhaps a way around all of this rather than wasting time with the objection is that if I need to I'll seek leave to further cross-examine.
PN2996
MR WOOD: I won't put it on the basis that you asked the question. I'll put it on the basis that the witness answered it.
PN2997
Do you think CTs are being forced to work unpaid overtime or through their lunch?---Under no circumstances.
PN2998
Do you think they are in fact working through their lunch or for unpaid overtime?---I would be very surprised if they are.
PN2999
Why do you say that?---I feel that CTs know that they have an entitlement to be paid for overtime worked and that they're under no obligation to work unpaid overtime.
PN3000
What about lunch?---They are entitled to a lunch break.
PN3001
You talked, in relation to questions about paragraph 15 of your statement, about quality audits and safety incidents. In the time in which the CC measure has been in place in your area, which I think has been over a year, perhaps 15 months, has there been any change, either positive or negative, in terms of the audit results on quality?---Quality has actually improved in the last 12 months.
PN3002
In terms of safety incidents, has there been any change, either positive or negative, in terms of safety incidents over the last 15 months?---I don't readily have that data available to me at the moment so I couldn't say.
PN3003
Nothing further, Commissioner.
**** MARK SPENCER LILBURNE RXN MR WOOD
PN3004
PN3005
MR WOOD: I think it is agreed between us - and I don't want to put words in my learned friends mouth - I think we had the agreement that we didn't want to start Mr Bernace on the basis that he was only going to have 15 minutes of examination-in-chief.
PN3006
THE COMMISSIONER: We will just go off the record for the moment.
OFF THE RECORD [3.31pm]
RESUMED [3.32pm]
PN3007
THE COMMISSIONER: We will adjourn for today. I should indicate that I won't be able to sit until October. I will have my associate, upon her return to good health, contact counsel to try and organise a mutually convenient time for both counsel and the remaining witnesses. It may be also - and I am contactable - it may be also that consideration is given to final submissions and how that might be dealt with too. It depends upon a number of variables but we will see how that goes. Thank you for your assistance. The matter is adjourned sine die.
ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [3.33pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN, CONTINUING PN2376
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR REITANO PN2376
PN2553
EXHIBIT #CEPU13 LETTER TO MR STAPLETON FROM MR BORG DATED 02/07/2004 PN2586
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN2588
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2615
NEIL ROSS HANLON, SWORN PN2626
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WOOD PN2626
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA 11 STATEMENT OF NEIL R. HANLON PN2644
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR REITANO PN2677
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN2819
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2831
MARK SPENCER LILBURNE, SWORN PN2833
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WOOD PN2833
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA 12 TWO AMENDMENTS TO STATEMENT PN2848
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR REITANO PN2893
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN2986
WITNESS WITHDREW PN3005
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