C2004/1113, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 3730 (21 September 2004)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 2209
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT O'CALLAGHAN

C2004/1113

NATIONAL UNION OF WORKERS

and

BALCO GROUP PTY LIMITED

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re breaking of commitment
re length of notice for plant closure

ADELAIDE

12.34 PM, THURSDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 2004

PN1

MR N. THREDGOLD: I appear for the National Union of Workers.

PN2

MR R. MANUEL: I seek leave to appear as counsel for Balco.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Thredgold, what is your position relative to Mr Manuel's request for leave?

PN4

MR THREDGOLD: We don't have an issue with that, Commissioner.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I grant that application, Mr Manuel. Mr Thredgold.

PN6

MR THREDGOLD: Senior Deputy President, this matter is a matter between a group of employees who have received a commitment from their employer in regards to a period of notice for the closure of the site that they work at. This commitment was given to them, and there's no argument about the commit. Company representatives acknowledge that they have given this commitment. It was communicated to them at the end of July this year that the site they were working at, which is a site at Clare, was going to be sold and not to be concerned about the sale of the site, that a period of 12 months' notice would be given to them of the pending complete closure of the site.

PN7

Some 2 weeks later the same manager came and spoke to them again and said to them - that was on 13 August - that the site would actually be closing in a matter of 4 to 6 weeks. My understanding is that that close down is still progressing and it is at the stage where that will be complete. There is no further processing going on at the plant. The plant has actually been demobbed and taken 75 kilometres away to another site.

PN8

The issue that we have with this matter is the fact that the commitment was given to these workers about a 12-month period before the close down would occur, which would give them time to make a decision about relocation, moving with the work, or whatever. It is acknowledged that the employees have been offered ongoing work at another site the employer operates at Bowmans, which is 75 kilometres away from Clare, which would make it a 150-kilometre round trip. At this stage the employees that we represent would prefer to leave the site and be paid a redundancy and look for work closer to where they live.

PN9

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Has that been offered to those employees as an option, Mr Thredgold?

PN10

MR THREDGOLD: Yes, redundancy has been offered, Commissioner. What we are seeking is some compensation in regards to the commitment that was given to them of the 12-month period where they would be given notice of the site closing.

PN11

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So how should I understand the issue you are raising in the context of the award provisions relative to redundancy and termination of employment? Is there any dispute that the award is being honoured in that regard?

PN12

MR THREDGOLD: No, there is no dispute in regards to that, Commissioner. There might have been a dispute in regards to the rate of pay, but I believe that has now been corrected.

PN13

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Was the undertaking to which you refer a documented undertaking?

PN14

MR THREDGOLD: It was a verbal commitment, Commissioner, but it was made on more than one occasion. I suppose the issue that the employees have is the fact that it was made 2 weeks prior to a further announcement that it was now 4 to 6 weeks that it was going to close.

PN15

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As I am understanding the situation, you are telling me that the plant is now in the act of being closed?

PN16

MR THREDGOLD: There's no further production at the site, and the site is actually being dismantled to be moved to Bowmans.

PN17

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So what are you seeking as an outcome?

PN18

MR THREDGOLD: What we are seeking is recognition of that commitment and some honouring of that commitment in a financial way or some genuine discussion about a possibility of relocating some of these employees to Bowmans.

PN19

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now I am confused. Can I break those down into two components? The first understanding I have is that you are seeking that presumably the Commission issue some form of recommendation or achieve an outcome which either, on the one hand, grants 12 months pay in addition to the award termination and redundancy provisions, is that correct?

PN20

MR THREDGOLD: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN21

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Or, as an alternative, is it correct for me to understand that you are saying alternative employment at the Bowmans facility should be offered to those employees?

PN22

MR THREDGOLD: That has already been offered.

PN23

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Because I did understand you to say that it has already been offered and has been rejected.

PN24

MR THREDGOLD: Yes. It has already been offered, and under the current proviso that it has been offered under it has been rejected, yes. But if there was some genuine discussion about assisting people to relocate, that may be an option for some of the employees.

PN25

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN26

MR THREDGOLD: Senior Deputy President, perhaps I should state that I thought we may have been in conciliation to start with today, but I suppose I didn't look at the notice very clearly, and that may be of some benefit to Mr Manuel.

PN27

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Should I understand, Mr Thredgold, that there is no agreement that sits above this award?

PN28

MR THREDGOLD: No, there is not, Senior Deputy President. This is a company that has probably only been a respondent for his award for a little bit over 12 months.

PN29

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And do you say to me that this is a matter that falls within the domain of clause 11 in the award?

PN30

MR THREDGOLD: Yes, Senior Deputy President, I would say that.

PN31

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And am I, secondly, correct in understanding that this award has not been varied to reflect the most recent termination and redundancy provisions or the standard provisions in that regard?

PN32

MR THREDGOLD: That is also correct, Senior Deputy President. My understanding of that is that the provisions within this award, if you are employed long enough, exceed the new provisions already.

PN33

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN34

MR THREDGOLD: You need to be employed for a fairly lengthy period of time, and this award is peculiar, Commissioner, in regards to the notice period required as well. So it is certainly one that is a little foreign to myself, but it certainly does not follow the standard award provisions.

PN35

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Thredgold. Mr Manuel.

PN36

MR MANUEL: Your Honour, insofar as there is a claim for, I think the words Mr Thredgold used were, a recognition of the commitment and an honouring of the commitment, it would seem that that is a matter which is really a matter of enforcement of some alleged right, not strictly a matter before this Commission. Putting aside the other issues of jurisdiction, there is no doubt the Commission is entitled to conciliate this matter as it sees fit, but I think it is important just briefly to understand the employer's perspective on this.

PN37

What Mr Thredgold has said, perhaps with some minor disagreement on the detail, is largely correct. In about 2001, as I understand it, with the building of the Bowmans plant, workers at Clare were a little concerned as to the security of their plant. They were told then that the plant would be likely to close in approximately 3 years, but that there would be a 12-month notice period, or at least they would be given 12 months notice of the closure.

PN38

Unfortunately, as happens in an industry, particularly an industry which is involved in export, things change rather rapidly and what you might think is an easily made commitment at one time quickly changes, and that is what has occurred in Balco. It suffered a financial loss of approximately $300,000 in the last financial year. Now, that is the old story, your Honour: greater competition, a problem with its major market, Japan, in that there are a lot of other people from other countries trying to get a foothold in Japan, and therefore the prices were being driven down while at the same time the committed prices to the farmers were remaining the same.

PN39

Now, if it had not been for some fairly creative foreign exchange trading by Balco, the loss would have been something like $2 million. The point is that foreign exchange is, by its very nature, risky, and, because of certain factors, it is becoming more risky at the present time. So Balco just does not believe it was in a position to continue to do that to bolster up its other problems.

PN40

There was a recommendation from management to the board in July 2004 that the Clare operation close as soon as possible, and that would have reduced costs significantly; and, as you have heard from Mr Thredgold, the plant at Clare, which is still useful, is being moved and relocated to the Clare plant, so there will be a consolidation of things such as insurance and the like which would save significant money.

PN41

Therefore, the advice to the workers in August originally - early in August - they were told of the recommendation that had been made. At that point in time it had not been considered by the board. They were told that there was likely to be closure of the business at the end of August, and there were discussions about alternatives, including relocation to Bowmans or redundancy. That was a matter for the workers' choice; it wasn't to be imposed upon them by the employer.

PN42

Mr May made himself available to the workers on his mobile and in fact even on his home phone and put his numbers up on the board, so if there were any issues to be discussed they could be. There was then a formal notice given on 20 August to all workers that there would be a closure by 30 September. As Mr Thredgold has noted, there has in fact, as I understand it, been a cessation of production, but the remainder of the notice period is being spent dismantling and, I assume, loading the plant that is to be relocated to Bowmans, so the people are still usefully employed.

PN43

My understanding is also, if I may say without going too far in emotive terms, the conduct of Balco has been above and beyond the call of duty in terms of assisting the employees. Firstly, there has been the relocation to Bowmans as an option, but they have also had personal discussions with the human resources manager.

PN44

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Manuel, can I interrupt you just to clarify one thing? You have used the words "and offered relocation to Bowmans."

PN45

MR MANUEL: Yes.

PN46

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, should I understand that means an offer of employment at Bowmans or is it an offer of assistance to relocate in terms of place of residence? They could be quite different things.

PN47

MR MANUEL: Yes, sir, I accept that, and perhaps I can deal with that on two levels. Firstly, all employees have been offered the opportunity to work at Bowmans - to be employed at Bowmans. The company has also been trying to discuss with employees the possibility of car pooling out of Clare, because the point is well made by Mr Thredgold that it is not 3 minutes down the road; it is a reasonable drive. In fact, if it is of any assistance to your Honour, just to give you an idea of the - - -

PN48

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have a reasonable idea where the two locations are.

PN49

MR MANUEL: Right. I'm sorry. But also, although there has not been a formal offer of relocation, my understanding is, in respect of one employee who raised the issue, Balco actually made inquiries as to the availability of housing at Clare. This particular employee said that he had a Housing Trust house in Clare, and Balco made specific inquiries with the Housing Trust to determine that there was in fact another house available for him there as well.

PN50

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: At Clare or at Bowmans?

PN51

MR MANUEL: No, at Bowmans.

PN52

MR THREDGOLD: At Balaclava.

PN53

MR MANUEL: I'm sorry, my apologies: at Balaclava, which I understand is a little closer to Bowmans than Clare is. Now, can I say on the criticism of that employee for not accepting that position, there are all sorts of personal circumstances that come into play: whether your partner is working, where your kids go to school, I mean, all sorts of things, particularly at this time of year. But there has been, at least on ad hoc basis, some attempt by Balco to assist people in that regard.

PN54

I should also say that Balco has actually been contacting employers in the local area to try and obtain work for those employees who don't wish to take work at Bowmans. There is one other point. The other point that was made that was raised by the employees is: well, you know, if we move to Bowmans or if we commute from Clare or the close environs of Clare to Bowmans and we don't like, what is going to happen?

PN55

What Balco said is, for whatever reason, if within the month of commencing work at Bowman you change your mind we will pay you the same redundancy as if you had accepted the redundancy directly from the Clare plant. So there has been a lot of attempt to accommodate the needs of employees. Certainly a lot of those attempts beyond those necessarily set out in the award. There is no doubt that there is - perhaps I may be being a bit unkind to Mr May, but a sense of disquiet as to not being able to have given, if you like, a more orderly structure to the closure of the Clare plant, because that is what the aim of it was.

PN56

Mr Thredgold is quite right. You give people 12 months. You give them a chance to look for other work within the region but it needs to be kept in mind. My instructions are this region is booming. That many people are likely to need qualified quantity employees like those that were employed at Clare by Balco. The company has done what it can within its limitations. It can't meet the 12 month undertaking. It does not have the financial ability to do so in the current circumstances.

PN57

It believes it has done what it can to be fair. It has paid redundancy in terms of the severance in accordance with the award. I must say, your Honour, because it is a rather unusual redundancy provision, I do not know how it matches up with the new standard of the Commission. I suspect the standard may be more generous in the early years and then losing out as those longer periods of service occurred but nevertheless it has done what it can to make a difference in respect of making up for not providing that 12 months.

PN58

I should say that the 12 months was intended as a notice period for the orderly closure of Clare on the basis that it would be taken over by the new plant at Bowman not on the closure of Clare because of significant financial and export difficulties. So the circumstances fundamentally changed. That is not a great comfort to the employees concerned, we accept that but management have bent over backwards to try and lessen that affect and we really are between a rock and a hard place. We have to close Clare, that is why it has happened.

PN59

We have met our financial obligations and we will continue to do so. We are not in the physical position, as this time, even if we were minded, as, if you like, some sort of ex gratia payment, to make extra payments available to employees. That is why Balco have tried to do so much to try and keep people in employment, to try and re-employ them at Bowden. We make no criticism of people who have not gone to Bowman but Balco is entitled to some recognition for the efforts they have made and strictly, a person could have moved to Bowman, if they wished.

PN60

That is fundamentally our position, your Honour. As I have said, there are obviously some jurisdictional complications in terms of the nature of the demand or the nature of the claim that is made. Also, and this is perhaps one area of factual dispute, that is that I am instructed there is no verbal undertaking or no repetition of the undertaking at the end of July this year that there would be 12 months notice. The only one was back in 2001. For what it is worth, Bowman is 67 kilometres from Clare, I am not sure we are going to quibble over 8 kilometres.

PN61

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Manuel, clause 11 of the award establishes a process for the avoidance of industrial disputes, perhaps more appropriately for the resolution of matters in dispute. To what extend can you tell me the employer has been in discussions with the union, perhaps in accordance with 11.1.2.

PN62

MR MANUEL: Our understanding is that there have been ongoing discussions. There was a conversation on 17 August advising the union of the closure and the reasons for the closure. There was then an attendance, I think, by Mr Thredgold on 3 September 2004. I understand that was also to meet with the employees. So there have been ongoing discussions. The employees have also been - well, certain employees have been quite active on their own behalf in pursuing these particular topics. There certainly has been a large amount of correspondence, particularly from one employee, by email to and from management which has been responded to in terms of these issues.

PN63

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is it the employer's view that the Commission has the capacity, firstly, and it would be desirable for the Commission to be involved in trying to affect a conciliated outcome to this matter?

PN64

MR MANUEL: We certainly would never profess to know all about these matters. My client struggles to see, even with the existence of the Commission, where this matter can go from a conciliated point of view because of the financial constraints. We would obviously, however, not shut the door on any suggestion that your Honour may have in an attempt to try and bring the matter to a resolution rather than having it drag on but we are struggling to see what that might be.

PN65

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I put that question then perhaps in a different way. Am I correct in understanding that whilst the employer does not object to some further conciliation or, indeed, further discussions with the union the employer is not prepared to offer additional payments over and above those that are set out in the award with respect to termination and to redundancy but that the employer is prepared to engage in further discussions over the form of assistance that might be provided to employees either at Clare, in terms of other employment opportunities or the form of assistance that might be provided to assist the employees relocating their place of residence to a place nearer Bowmans?

PN66

MR MANUEL: In terms of the first point, we would agree subject to the fact that, on my calculation, the notice period provided to the employees has been more generous than the award, only a matter of weeks. In terms of the other, I would need to obtain some instructions.

PN67

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Feel free to do so, Mr Manuel. Thank you.

PN68

MR MANUEL: Thank you, Commissioner. I understand that the target audience might be less than expected because some of the employees have already in fact obtained alternative employment but certainly the issues that my client has already considered include issues such as assistance with the resume, contacting employees, references and the like and it would be happy to discuss any ideas that may be put forward as to how that might be more effectively driven.

PN69

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If I go back to the first point, the issue of the employer's non preparedness to agree to additional payments over and above those that have already been agreed, what do you say to me then about the capacity, in the event Mr Thredgold wishes to pursue that matter, for the Commission to arbitrate on that matter?

PN70

MR MANUEL: We would say it would be fraught with a certain amount of difficulty. Firstly, just back in ordinary principles, a notice was given on 20 August. It may well have been that any arbitrated position would be - because in this we are confined to future rights, it may have well have passed those persons by particularly if any then obtained subsequent employment. Putting that to one side, insofar as the arbitration was to effectively enforce a commitment so described, that would be outside the jurisdiction of the Commission.

PN71

There is no doubt, under section 89A, the Commission has the ability to deal with issues such as notice and severance and the like but for the Commission to exceed the current standard of the Full Commission in respect of the recent test case would require, we say - it is not a lack of jurisdiction, it is a matter as to whether a single member of the Commission, even a presidential member, would be in a position to exercise that power without referring the matter to the Full Bench.

PN72

So we say that there are some difficulties. Insofar as your Honour relies - sorry, insofar as you refer to clause 11, I note in clause 11.1.3, it has that rather strange wording at the end:

PN73

It is agreed that such a reference would not resolve the parties, the parties shall jointly or individually refer the matter to the Commission for assistance in resolving the matter.

PN74

Now, I know it is in a slightly different context but where that phrase has appeared or does appear in certified agreements, it has been held, fairly consistently that that is referral for either conciliation or medication not for an arbitrated outcome. I should raise the matter of fairness, however. Section 111AA, which would enable the Commission to deal with the matter - it is something of an anomaly. People often describe this as a binding recommendation, which does no seem to make an awful lot of sense within itself but nevertheless - - -

PN75

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Depends a bit on the recommendation, you might find, Mr Manuel.

PN76

MR MANUEL: Quite but I do note that if the parties request the hearing be conducted then the Commission can conduct a hearing and make recommendations. I have no instructions as to what my client's position would be upon that but certainly its view is it is happy to discuss those matters but it believes, having regard to the circumstances, that it has gone as far a sit can at this present time. May it please the Commission.

PN77

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Mr Thredgold, what do you say in response to Mr Manuel?

PN78

MR THREDGOLD: Senior Deputy President I would agree with my colleague opposite in regards to the company's ad hoc approach to this process. There has been no firm commitments given and looking at some of the correspondence that has been sent or given to employees as general notices it talks about relocation to Bowmans and I, like yourself, took that to be possibly mean assistance with moving over to Bowmans but that has never been offered to any employee. I personally have never had any personal experience with the Housing Trust but our member who has suggests to me that simply there being a vacant house in Balaklava does not necessarily mean that vacant house, because he has a Housing Trust house in Clare that it is automatic - that that would be available for him and his family. That would not be an automatic given.

PN79

Now, that might be after some discussion and negotiations occur but again, just because one is vacant does not mean one is available to someone who has already got one somewhere else. I could accept some of my colleagues arguments as well in regards of the closure of the plant in Clare if the plant equipment was being sold off and not used anywhere else but the actual fact the plant and equipment is being dismantled and moved to Bowmans is going to be operated at Bowmans, as it has been in Clare.

PN80

I do not know the company's financial, so I am not going to speculate on whether they have the potential to pay or not but yes, we would be willing to be part of some conciliation in regards to discussing any further options. Our preference would be that one of those options would include an increase to the severance component that is currently being offered.

PN81

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Thredgold, can I break this down a little. As I understand the Balco position, and I am sure Mr Manuel correct me if I am wrong in this regard, it is that Balco are prepared to engage in further discussions but those discussions would go to issues associated with the efforts that Balco might take to procure alternative employment for someone in the Clare vicinity or to assist an employee in relocating their place of residence to a location near Bowmans. That Balco are not prepared to increase payments that are already made and that in the event that that matter is pursued, there may well be an argument over the capacity of the Commission to determine the matter by way of an arbitration.

PN82

I make no finding in that regard at all and, nor indeed, have I necessarily taken Mr Manuel's position to be entirely definitive but I have taken it that he has foreshadowed such an argument. Now, it seems to me that if your position is that you want to achieve both an increase in the payments to be made to employees and possible variations to the efforts that might be taken to procure alternative employment and/or other reference in terms of alternative housing, then an attempt at a conciliated outcome or, indeed, a discussion between the parties, is not likely to go very far.

PN83

If it is the case that additional payments are a fundamental prerequisite for the position the union is adopting, then are you saying to me that we ought to determine that first of all as distinct from it being possibly the case that there might be discussions about the other two components being the alternative employment endeavours and the alternative housing endeavours which might conceivably resolve the issue from the NUWs position?

PN84

MR THREDGOLD: Yes, Senior Deputy President, I believe those discussions would have the potential to resolve those other issues, or the other issues. There is no doubt that I think there may be some people who just would prefer to take the extra payment to stay in the area but we would certainly be willing to participate in some genuine discussion about relocation and that may resolve our other claims as well.

PN85

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, you say to me you haven't had discussions about alternative residential location.

PN86

MR THREDGOLD: Not wishing to repeat myself, it has been an ad hoc discussion, as was mentioned by my colleague to the left there in regards to that one person. My understanding, having spoken to the employees about the availability of housing, albeit it rental housing or to buy, is they are very very rare in the location, very difficult to find and you need to almost be there on the day to take up a rental proposition or you will miss out.

PN87

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Thredgold, would you be proposing those discussions occur under the auspices of the Commission or that the parties have first go at seeing what they could resolve with the capacity to come back to the Commission if there was a problem? That latter approach appears to me to be more consistent with the award but I am interested in your views.

PN88

MR THREDGOLD: Senior Deputy President, given that we are here, I could see that it may be better to pursue those discussions as soon as we possibly could with the assistance of the Commission.

PN89

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but you see you have got the employer here, as I understand it, right at the moment.

PN90

MR THREDGOLD: That is right.

PN91

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN92

MR THREDGOLD: But again, I would suggest that it may be of benefit to have the Commission's assistance at this stage, having already had some discussion last Friday in regards to this matter and the fact that I am not aware of the timing of when the decommissioning of the Clare plant will be complete. But it is imminent.

PN93

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Thredgold. Mr Manuel.

PN94

MR MANUEL: I think one of the difficulties at the present time is pinning down what is actually meant by both sides as to, for instance, relocation is the best example. I accept that it is open to interpretation just as a word sitting there but Mr Thredgold, or more to the point, I guess, his members, must have a view as to what they mean. You know, are they talking about some sort of rental assistance for a period of time? Are they talking about actually moving? There are all sorts of potentials and I think they are the ones that need to be pinned down so that we can then respond appropriately to them.

PN95

Now, I am sure my client has no difficulty in meeting today and taking it as far as it can be taken but it would be of great assistance if what Mr Thredgold is seeking on behalf of his members, or even beyond that, your Honour, even if it is a wish list, would assist in advancing the conciliation. Of course we have no objection or difficulty being assisted by the Commission but we are not just sure whether it is a useful process right at the moment.

PN96

I accept what Mr Thredgold is saying about the timing of the closure. My instructions are it is still 30 September. As the parties are already here one assumes that there should be a reasonable understanding obtained fairly quickly as to whether there is going to be any progress made on those topics and therefore so long as both parties have the right to apply at short notice and subject to the Commission's availability, the matter could be brought back on.

PN97

But what I would be suggesting with respect, sir, is that Mr Thredgold and the people from Balco sit down now, find a working room and try and knock that out. That is with the assistance of Ms Spence, and just see how they go.

PN98

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Manuel. Just bear with me for one moment, Mr Thredgold. Mr Thredgold, what I am proposing to the parties by way of a recommendation, which I will endeavour to issue later today, is that the parties engage in discussions, ideally discussions that would immediately follow this hearing, to identify first of all the number of employees seeking any form of housing relocation assistance and the form in which that assistance is sought.

PN99

Secondly, the number of employees seeking any alternative employment assistance within the Clare locality and the form of the additional assistance requested from Balco. It occurs to me that the establishment of those two issues might be a prerequisite for Balco's consideration of what it could actually do in those areas. It may well be, for example, that Balco need to undertake some discussions within a short timeframe with the Housing Trust, or indeed, with some other source of housing provider within the Bowmans region.

PN100

If that prerequisite, or preliminary information, is not able to be provided by your union to Balco today - and it occurs to me it may well not be able to simply because you may not have that information from the employees - then I would recommend that it be obtained as soon as possible to allow those discussions to occur and that in any event it ought to be obtained by the middle of next week to enable a discussion to occur by that date.

PN101

If I am advised at some stage before the close of business on 16 September - that is next Thursday - that the discussions have occurred and that they have not resolved the issue and that the union wants to have some further discussions which would be facilitated by the Commission, then I am prepared to do so at some stage, hopefully on 17 September. Obviously if that date became preoccupied in terms of another matter we would have to rearrange that date but it would be around that time.

PN102

If discussions within the Commission were necessary and failed to resolve the matter then both parties would need to give some more detailed consideration to what further action the Commission might be able to take in the matter. It occurs to me that if I was to facilitate discussions today then it is unlikely they are going to go very far until you have got the opportunity to ascertain from your members what precise form of additional assistance they might require and that probably is the next step in this process.

PN103

Now, I want to give you the opportunity to comment on that proposal. If you are happy with that proposal I would format it slightly differently and issue it as an outcome from today's hearing.

PN104

MR THREDGOLD: Senior Deputy President, I think you are correct in regards to - I certainly don't have that information now - so you are correct in regards to how far the discussions could progress today, probably not very far. So we would be in a position to accept the recommendation.

PN105

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Mr Manuel.

PN106

MR MANUEL: Yes, we are comfortable with the approach proposed, your Honour.

PN107

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will issue a recommendation that will broadly reflect those sentiments later on this afternoon.

PN108

MR MANUEL: Thank you, sir.

PN109

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will adjourn the matter.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [1.20pm]