C2004/5355, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 3863 (1 October 2004)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 13260

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE

C2004/5355

COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA

and

AUSTRALIA POST

Application under Section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of a dispute re alleged intention
to relocate the work from Alexandria to Clyde

SYDNEY

10.53 AM, TUESDAY, 24 AUGUST 2004

Continued from 13.8.04

PN56

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: May I have the appearances please?

PN57

MR G. RAYNER: If the Commission pleases I appear for the CEPU.

PN58

MS A. PERIGO: If the Commission please I appear for Australia Post. With me is MR A. WILKINSON and MR J. PARKINSON.

PN59

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I apologise for keeping you waiting. My other matter took much longer than I thought. Mr Rayner?

PN60

MR RAYNER: Thank you, your Honour. Following our last appearance here there are still, in our view, three issues that remain outstanding, three serious issues. Perhaps again if I just hand up the latest paperwork tool which I think you may have already received or you may not have. The first issue that we say that is still outstanding is the matter that relates to the employees that had serious family issues. As you can see from the correspondence there were seven employees that raised issues. Two of those have been accommodated, namely employees 6 and 7 but we do still have issues with employees 1 through to 5 and employee 1 can be accommodated at west with a fixed shift unlike what Australia Post is offering of a rotating shift.

PN61

Employees 2, 3, 4 and 5, your Honour, are the ones that have the most serious issues. Australia Post said they have accommodated for them. They were both given two options; you can go to Clyde or we will transfer you somewhere else but for that honour of being transferred somewhere else they had to contribute $5000 each out of reduced salary that they would lose by being transferred. So they really had no choice at all. In order to main their income they were, in effect, forced to move into Clyde and we still say that that's contrary to the definitions of redundancy contained in the RRR agreement.

PN62

The second serious issue, your Honour, is in fact what has happened since the workshops have relocated is that the employees have been redeployed over into the Clyde workshops but the work has not. Australia Post are now effectively contracting out the work that was done by these employees at east because none of the work has been transferred over the west depot and the information I've been given this morning is that there is unlikely to be any work transferred to the west depot for some time.

PN63

The third issue, your Honour, relates to a gentleman by the name of Steve Kocan who has been acting as a PG1 at the east workshops for in excess of two years. Despite numerous attempts by the union and, as I understand it, three attempts by local management to raise the paperwork to get Mr Kocan appointed to this vacant position still, as of today, he finds himself acting in the position with no information or advice being forthcoming from management regarding his future.

PN64

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Where is he acting again?

PN65

MR RAYNER: At the east workshop at the moment.

PN66

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And he is still there?

PN67

MR RAYNER: Still there, yes, your Honour. So they are the three issues we say are outstanding, your Honour, that need to be rectified because the employees - especially those employees 2 through to 5 - are experiencing some difficulties in working at Clyde. Thank you, your Honour.

PN68

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You're saying though that they consider themselves redundant or would prefer to take a redundancy?

PN69

MR RAYNER: Without specifically putting that question to each of the employees I am sure some of those employees would prefer redundancy rather than going to Clyde. I can't say categorically for all four but certainly for some of them, yes, your Honour.

PN70

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is your alternate position? Either they say they're redundant and want a redundancy or they say they're entitled to be transferred and paid on their own salary?

PN71

MR RAYNER: That's correct, your Honour.

PN72

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And, what, they've been transferred and not been paid on their old salary?

PN73

MR RAYNER: Australia Post have informed me that it would be a transfer by consent in which case it would be a transfer to a lower salary level and therefore they would lose that salary. In three of the cases it's about $5000 difference. In one case, employee 4 I think, it's closer to about $8000 difference. We say they should be offered reasonable redeployment with salary maintenance in accordance with the RRR agreement.

PN74

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think Mr Kocan was part of the original notification was he? That issue wasn't discussed last time the matter was before me.

PN75

MR RAYNER: It wasn't raised the last time we were before your Honour because I have been given assurances by the manager/transport that he would be appointed to the position and subsequently he hasn't been.

PN76

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There has been no decision to refuse his appointment, it just hasn't been decided?

PN77

MR RAYNER: He hasn't been offered anything, he hasn't refused anything; he's got nothing to refuse.

PN78

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's what I mean. Let's deal with the matters backwards. How about Mr Kocan, Ms Perigo?

PN79

MS PERIGO: Your Honour, that's the first time I've heard of Mr Kocan. He, as I understand it, is an employee in the depot, he is not an employee in the workshop so he's on the same location but not part of the issues that we've been dealing with, your Honour.

PN80

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So he's not proposed to be transferred in any way?

PN81

MS PERIGO: That's my understanding, your Honour, no, he will be remaining in that area.

PN82

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there any reason why his position hasn't been confirmed to you. This is a long time to act.

PN83

MS PERIGO: I accept, your Honour, it is a long time to wait. The first I'm aware is when Mr Rayner raised it this morning. Mr Wilkinson has some background on it and from what I understand it probably isn't a difficult issue to resolve but I would need to understand the issue further before I do anything else with it than investigate it.

PN84

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. It would be easy to get rid of that one won't it?

PN85

MS PERIGO: Hopefully, your Honour, that can be dealt with easily.

PN86

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you will get some instructions?

PN87

MS PERIGO: Your Honour, I will and I will talk to Mr Rayner in relation to that.

PN88

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Item number 2?

PN89

MS PERIGO: Mr Rayner raised the issue that work had been contracted out; that's not my instructions. The work from east workshop is being transferred or has been transferred to west workshop.

PN90

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And have you had any discussions with Mr Rayner about the information he has received about that?

PN91

MS PERIGO: Again this is the first that we have heard from the union that they have some information or they have some allegations that work's been contracted out but my understanding is your Honour that's not the case, and our enterprise agreement talks to issues of contracting out work which is currently done by employees. We haven't gone down that path because we haven't contracted out any work.

PN92

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN93

MS PERIGO: In relation to the employees, there were three that were mentioned by the union last time we were before you. Post approached the employees at the workshop again and met with seven employees on 16 August. I understand that the correspondence you've got from Mr Rayner today was sent to you as well outlining the issues in relation to those employees. The discussions with the seven employees took place over those few days and you would have seen in the correspondence dated the 17th and again on the 19th the outcome. So as I understand, as I'm instructed your Honour, employee four, there is still a current issue with employee four who is currently on sick leave, but the other employees' issues have been resolved.

PN94

Employee four is also a supervisor not a base rate employee so when Mr Rayner talks in relation to that person and then he changed salary it needs to be considered that the employee is working as a supervisor currently. Your Honour we sat down with each of the employees and walked through their particular concerns and as I am instructed came to agreements with each of them, except employee four, as to how we could address the issues they had raised with us.

PN95

With employee four there were options provided to that person. The option of remaining in their current geographical area but I accept a different rate of pay. There was also the option of moving to the new facility at a fixed shift which we put to that employee to assist in the issues that he raised with us. I should say he didn't provide much background information on his issues to us. We also asked the employee if he would be interested in considering any supervisory roles in the Alexandria area, or sort of that general area and he wasn't interested in that position either.

PN96

So we will still talk to that particular employee, as I said he is off claiming sick leave at the moment. So we will still have some discussions in relation to him. But the other employees as I said your Honour I'm instructed that they've been dealt with and are happy and are at either Alexandria in terms of employee six and employee seven, or at Clyde.

PN97

Your Honour Mr Rayner raises the issue of salary maintenance again and we say again that our RRR agreement doesn't apply and if you go to the salary maintenance provisions in the agreement for it to apply the employee has to be surplus and an employee has to be an employee who does not elect to accept a voluntary redundancy package. Well none of the employees are surplus. At no time have we advised employees as surplus. We have advised employees that we are relocating work from one place to another. They are all still required. That's been our constant position and there's no innate right for an employee to elect to take a package, we must advise them if that is what is possible and that can only take place if they are surplus. And that's not the situation we have in front of us. So your Honour they have positions at Clyde which they are able to take up and work or we explored other options for the other employees. And I should say employee six transferring from a garage attendant position to a driver/sorter position, there was a pay increase for that employee in relation to that transfer.

PN98

So your Honour all the employees are currently at work at Clyde, except for obviously six and seven. There was a meeting with staff yesterday, no issues were raised by the staff. The working party we referred to last time is meeting again on the 26th, this Thursday, for a final wrap of any issues. We say that while we still will talk obviously to employee number four and try and resolve his concerns, but every other matter has been dealt with. If it pleases.

PN99

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It seems to me that this matter, items number two and three can be dealt with very shortly. You need to get instructions on what's happening with Mr Kocan and perhaps you should have a conversation with Mr Rayner and he can share with you the information he has as to the work moving or not moving. In relation to that I understand what your position is. I'll order a copy of the transcript and have it provided to Mr Rayner and perhaps you could deal further, exchanging some information with Ms Fierce.

PN100

Mr Rayner in relation to employees two to five, two, three, four and five, I think that the parties had some conciliation on the last occasion. I understand that Australian Post is fixed in its position that these employees are not redundant. If the union wishes to press its position that they are redundant under the agreement then that is a matter that you will have to run I think. If you wish to press me about that matter that would be a matter about which it would at the very least to adduce some evidence.

PN101

So I think the situation has been reached where you need to make a decision about the conduct of the first issue. You know Australia Post's position and as I think it is pretty clear that Ms Perigo and Australia Post are not going to change their position. As to their view about that you are in disagreement. Whether you want to press the Commission to resolve that disagreement pursuant to the agreement is a matter for you. As to two and three I think you need to have some conversation and I'll adjourn till 11.30 to allow you go do that.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.07am]

RESUMED [11.50am]

PN102

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, where are we?

PN103

MS PERIGO: Your Honour, thank you for the extra time. Your Honour, in relation to the employee, Mr Kocan, there is no issue in relation to that employee. I've informed Mr Rayner that we'll make sure he's appointed to the position that he's been acting in and I'll confirm that with Mr Rayner in writing, so I think that issue is now resolved. Your Honour, in relation to the union's claims that work has been contracted out, as I said earlier, all work that was currently done by Australia Post employees is to remain to be done by Australia Post employees.

PN104

The union said there was a direction for work not to go to that particular - it was to go to Clyde. There were some housekeeping issues yesterday and there were a few mix ups yesterday, your Honour, but there is a direction that all work that would normally be done in the old Alexandria depot work shop is to go to Clyde. There was some work that would normally be done by outside contractors such as work under warranty or electrical work and that was performed as it always is by outside contractors.

PN105

There were some communication issues as well between Alexandria and Clyde yesterday and those issues have now been resolved, if it pleases.

PN106

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Rayner?

PN107

MR RAYNER: Your Honour, just in relation to Mr Kocan, Ms Perigo says that she's going to advise us in writing. Can we have a done by date because, quite frankly, this is the fourth time I've heard that he's going to get appointed and it's starting to wear a bit thin.

PN108

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, is there any reason why you can give us a guesstimate?

PN109

MS PERIGO: Your Honour, I can do that by close of business today, that's not a problem.

PN110

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: By close of business today.

PN111

MR RAYNER: In relation to the contracting out, perhaps while Ms Perigo is in the writing mood, we could also get that in writing, that the direction has been issued that all work previously done at East will be done at Clyde.

PN112

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I've already said I'll issue a copy of the transcript and it's been told to me on transcript if there's some problem with that, then I expect the matter will be relisted. But you could provide a confirmation of it in writing, if you wanted to, Ms Perigo. I don't think a lot hangs off it. What do you say?

PN113

MS PERIGO: Your Honour, we have no difficulty. I would have thought that the assurance on transcript was sufficient to Mr Rayner, but we're happy to talk to the executive in charge and have correspondence issued to Mr Rayner, if it pleases.

PN114

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Rayner, as to the other matters?

PN115

MR RAYNER: The other matter, your Honour, I'll be advising my Branch Secretary of what's occurred and with him make the recommendation that we press the matter.

PN116

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Will I keep the file open then and you'll advise me?

PN117

MR RAYNER: If you could please, your Honour, yes.

PN118

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I'll order the transcript be made available to both parties. Thank you.

PN119

MR RAYNER: Sorry, your Honour, just before we go, I'm resigning from the CEPU as of Friday. I'd just like to thank the panel, all the associates and the staff for their help over the years, thank you.

PN120

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's new news, Mr Rayner. Where are you going?

PN121

MR RAYNER: Essentially, I'm going to become a bum for a couple of months and do nothing, your Honour, and then make a decision after that.

PN122

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there a vacancy in that role? It's a very attractive proposition.

PN123

MR RAYNER: That's right, it's highly sought after, your Honour, but I think I've got a leg in.

PN124

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, congratulations, it's a great life style choice. I wish you luck.

PN125

MR RAYNER: Thank you, your Honour.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.54am]