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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT AUSTRALASIA PTY LTD
ABN 72 110 028 825
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N 9137
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER HINGLEY
C2004/6073
LIU, HAN JIAN
and
NHP ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING
PRODUCTS PTY LTD
Application under section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of dispute re redundancy
arising from the relocation of workplace
from Richmond to Laverton
MELBOURNE
10.05 AM, MONDAY, 22 NOVEMBER 2004
Continued from 1.10.04
PN59
MR M. CHAMPION: I seek leave to appear on behalf of the applicant, Mr Liu.
PN60
MR S. WOOD: The appearances on behalf of the respondent are unchanged, Commissioner, and I think leave has been granted to me to appear but if it hasn't I will seek leave.
PN61
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, out of abundance of caution leave is granted in both cases. Yes, Mr Champion.
PN62
MR CHAMPION: Can I indicate there is a Cantonese interpreter in the Commission, Kitty Lau and perhaps if Ms Lau could be sworn at the outset, Commissioner.
PN63
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
KITTY LAU, SWORN TO INTERPRET [10.06am]
THIS TRANSCRIPT IS ONLY OF PROCEEDINGS
IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE
PN64
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Lau.
PN65
THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
PN66
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Champion.
PN67
MR CHAMPION: Commissioner, I propose to open the case, if that is in order. I will be relatively brief in doing so. There is a single witness for the applicant, it is Mr Liu himself and I hope the Commission has a folder of material on behalf of Mr Liu.
PN68
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I do.
PN69
MR CHAMPION: It includes two witness statements from Mr Liu. The first is dated 1 October and there is a supplementary witness statement dated 6 October. The supplementary witness statement, or at least in my material, it is right at the very back at tab 10 of the material. The certain fundamental facts in this case, Commissioner, in my submission are non contentious and they are these, first Mr Liu worked for NHP which in the broadest terms is involved, among other things, in the manufacture of electrical componentry for industry.
PN70
He worked for NHP for 16 years at River Road, Richmond. The company has now relocated its operations, or its factory. It continues to have some operations at Richmond but significantly it has relocated its operations to a site in Laverton. Mr Micallef, the national manufacturing manager for the respondent, says at paragraph 60 of the witness statement he has filed and we can agree on this much, that it is 24 kilometres from the Richmond site to the Laverton site.
PN71
The applicant, Mr Liu, does not challenge that there are valid business reasons for the relocation. He also does not challenge the fact that NHP wishes him to do the same job that he had previously for 16 years performed at Richmond at the Laverton site. The company asked him to transfer. Mr Liu in contrast says that the requirement for him to transfer to Laverton imposes an unreasonable burden upon him and it is not a reasonable expectation that he transfer because he lives in Box Hill and the burden upon him being required to commute from Box Hill to Laverton and home again is unreasonable.
PN72
The evidence will be that the burden is unreasonable both in terms of substantially increased travelling times and it is common ground that NHP has put on a bus from Richmond to Laverton. If Mr Liu were to take the bus it seems there is 40 minutes allowed for the bus to get from Richmond to Laverton and the same on the way home. So that the approximate additional time is in the region of 80 to 85 minutes a day using the bus as a guide. There is substantially increased costs for Mr Liu particularly if he declines to go the bus option and drives his own motor vehicle to Laverton.
PN73
Thirdly and importantly in this case, Commissioner, the requirement to relocate to Laverton would impose very great difficulty upon him in terms of his family responsibilities. Those family responsibilities can be described in this way, his wife works in a mixed business, a milk bar as I understand at Clifton Hill. She works very long hours in that business and it falls to Mr Liu to be the primary carer for his school aged children both before and after school and how the family's routine works is that he drops his daughter who is about eight at Kew East Primary School on his - I correct that.
PN74
He drops his daughter at a friend's place before school. His daughter is an eight year old, attends Kew East Primary School and he drops his son at Melbourne High School, his son is about 17 and is headed into his final year of VCE next year. This obligations vis-a-vis his children in the mornings and then reproduced in the afternoons mean that having to start 40 minutes earlier, which is what Laverton will require, and finish 40 minutes later because of the extra travelling times make it very difficult indeed for Mr Liu to reconcile his family responsibilities on the one hand and the obligations of his employment on the other.
PN75
To put this in the legal context, Commissioner, this matter comes before the Commission pursuant to section 170LW of the Act a dispute about a certified agreement and while I will develop the argument in closing, that the legal context is, well, does the circumstances that I have described - do the circumstances that I have described give rise to a redundancy for the purposes of the certified agreement.
PN76
The certified agreement is in both parties material. It is at tab 3 in my material, Commissioner, if that is convenient. There is three clauses I will breeze past in opening. The first is clause 11 which is the disputes settling procedure which confers the power of private arbitration on the Commission today. Although the respondent says in its submissions it is for me to satisfy the Commission that you have jurisdiction, I accept that there is no developed point of argument that you don't have jurisdiction concerning the matter and it seems to me this is very plainly in terms of the words of section 170LW a dispute about the application of the agreement and that I on the one hand contend for Mr Liu that the circumstances I have described give rise to a redundancy.
PN77
For the purposes of clause 17 of the agreement, Mr Wood on behalf of his client contends the converse and therefore it is the content of the concept of redundancy in clause 17 read in conjunction with the other provisions of the agreement that falls for decision. So clause 11, the dispute settling procedure, confers an unfettered power as it were on the Commission to bring this dispute to resolution. Clause 17 of the certified agreement is entitled redundancy and it says redundancy will be in accordance with the Metal, Engineering and Associated Industries Award which underpins this certified agreement and the relevant extract of the award.
PN78
So one starts looking at clause 17 and is immediately referred back to the terms of the award to ascertain what a redundancy is and a redundancy is in turn defined in clause 4.4.1(b) of the award and that appears at tab 4 of my material to describe a circumstance in which an employer has made a definite decision that the employer no longer wishes the job the employee has been doing done by anyone.
PN79
A job, Commissioner, is at once a very familiar concept and a somewhat elusive one, but I say in determining what is a job that can include the location at which the work is performed and when I develop these submissions in closing I will take the Commission to the United Rubber case in particular which is authority for that proposition. The third clause of the certified agreement which I need to touch on in opening is clause 21 on which the respondent put particular emphasis in that it is apparent that the Electrical Trades Union on the one hand and NHP, the employer on the other hand, discussed Laverton in terms of the relocation - discussed the relocation to Laverton rather in terms of negotiations leading up to this certified agreement and the correct construction of clause 21 will be in issue in this case.
PN80
Then it is the applicant's case that there is no general right vested in NHP as the employer to direct Mr Liu to relocate from Richmond to Laverton and nothing in the certified agreement changes that and the effect is that NHP no longer wishes the job Mr Liu was performing his Richmond to be performed by anyone and therefore his position is redundant and he is entitled to the severance benefit to be calculated in accordance with clause 17 of the award, namely, 2.5 weeks per year of service which in Mr Liu's case accrues to 40 weeks, him having completed 40 weeks of service.
PN81
Subject to any inquiries the Commission may have that is all I wish to say by way of opening.
PN82
THE COMMISSIONER: No, thank you.
PN83
MR CHAMPION: I beg your pardon, there was one addition. I canvassed with Mr Wood there are some controversial documents which I intend to come back to in closing but perhaps if they could be marked.
PN84
PN85
MR CHAMPION: Thank you, Commissioner. The next two documents appear in the respondent's material but it might be convenient to mark them. The first at tab 7 of the respondent's material, it is the 2004 RACV vehicle operating costs.
PN86
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN87
PN88
PN89
PN90
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Lau, if you get uncomfortable standing please indicate. You might be there for a while.
PN91
THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you.
PN92
MR CHAMPION: We can make a seat available if that is of any assistance.
PN93
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that is fine, thank you.
PN94
MR CHAMPION: Mr Liu, before today have you prepared two witness statements the first of which is dated 1 October 2004 and the second dated 2 October 2004?
PN95
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN96
MR CHAMPION: And do you have those witness statements with you in the witness box?
PN97
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN98
MR CHAMPION: Yes. Please look first at the statement dated 1 October 2004.
PN99
THE INTERPRETER: Is that my signature?
PN100
MR CHAMPION: Wait for the question if you would, Mr Liu. Have you had a chance to read that statement before coming to the Commission today?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN101
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I did.
PN102
MR CHAMPION: Is it true and correct?
PN103
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it is true and correct entirely.
PN104
MR CHAMPION: Are there any changes you wish to make to it?
PN105
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN106
PN107
MR CHAMPION: Now, could I ask you to have a look, Mr Liu, at the second statement, the supplementary statement dated 6 October 2004.
PN108
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN109
MR CHAMPION: Yes. Have you had a chance to re-read that statement before coming to the Commission today?
PN110
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I did.
PN111
MR CHAMPION: Is it true and correct?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN112
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, true and correct.
PN113
MR CHAMPION: Are there any changes you wish to make to it?
PN114
THE INTERPRETER: Not at the moment.
PN115
THE COMMISSIONER: Which tab is that, Mr Champion?
PN116
MR CHAMPION: It is at tab 10 in my material, Commissioner, right at the back.
PN117
THE COMMISSIONER: Might I say that where I marked the first one, the first statement, I included the attachments.
PN118
MR CHAMPION: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN119
THE COMMISSIONER: But I don't have a tab 10, or anything at the back.
PN120
MR CHAMPION: I have only one copy of it unfortunately, Commissioner. I would like you to have a copy. Perhaps if it could be photocopied quickly?
PN121
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Wood, have you got one?
PN122
MR WOOD: I don't think I have got a spare, Commissioner.
PN123
THE COMMISSIONER: No, no, but you have got one for you?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN124
MR WOOD: Yes, yes.
PN125
THE COMMISSIONER: You need this photocopied now, Mr Champion, I take it?
PN126
MR CHAMPION: I would be grateful but I can continue on while that is happening.
PN127
THE INTERPRETER: Commissioner, the applicant said he has got a spare one.
PN128
THE WITNESS: I have the two set.
PN129
THE COMMISSIONER: You have saved the day, Mr Liu.
PN130
THE WITNESS: In my bag.
PN131
THE COMMISSIONER: Just stay.
PN132
MR CHAMPION: The second one. There is the first one, the second one. Yes, this here.
PN133
THE INTERPRETER: Commissioner, the applicant said you better check the date.
PN134
THE COMMISSIONER: 6 October, is that right?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN135
THE INTERPRETER: It just said I had an extra copy made.
PN136
THE COMMISSIONER: 6 October, is it?
PN137
PN138
MR CHAMPION: Now, could I turn your attention, please, Mr Liu, to your first statement, C4. It is your statement of 1 October.
PN139
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN140
MR CHAMPION: And could you have a look at this document, please. Are you able to confirm that that is a recent pay slip dated 27 October 2004, Mr Liu?
PN141
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the latest one.
PN142
MR CHAMPION: And it records your fortnightly pay of - I beg your pardon. It records your fortnightly pay of $1587?
PN143
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN144
MR CHAMPION: And is that your correct current pay rate?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN145
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, before tax.
PN146
PN147
MR CHAMPION: Does the Commission have a copy of C6?
PN148
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN149
MR CHAMPION: Now, Mr Liu, could I turn your attention, please to paragraph 16 and following of your witness statement of 1 October.
PN150
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN151
MR CHAMPION: And particularly what I would like you to explain to the Commissioner is your routine in the morning. In recent times when you have been working at Richmond how has your morning worked, how have you got there?
PN152
THE INTERPRETER: Normally after I left home, I normally take my daughter to primary school.
PN153
MR CHAMPION: Could we take it a step at a time. What time do you leave home?
PN154
THE INTERPRETER: I cannot be late from five to six minutes. I have to leave before 7 o'clock. If I did leave five to six minutes late I would have my pay deducted three dollars something or whatever.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN155
MR CHAMPION: So you leave at 7 o'clock, is that right?
PN156
THE INTERPRETER: Normally, yes, but my children have to get up between six and 6.45 because they have to have shower, clean up.
PN157
MR CHAMPION: After you leave home at 7 o'clock where do you go first?
PN158
THE INTERPRETER: I take him to school. I have to take my child to a class mate of my child, the name is Natasha, leave the child there and then they agree to take my child to school for me.
PN159
MR CHAMPION: Are you referring to your daughter?
PN160
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, my daughter.
PN161
MR CHAMPION: How old is your daughter?
PN162
THE INTERPRETER: Seven, between seven, close to eight.
PN163
MR CHAMPION: Where does she go to school?
PN164
THE WITNESS: Kew Primary School.
PN165
THE INTERPRETER: Key Primary School.
PN166
MR CHAMPION: Okay. And do you take her to Natasha's place?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN167
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN168
MR CHAMPION: And who is Natasha?
PN169
THE INTERPRETER: It is the name of another child that goes to the same school. It is the parents name and my daughter had to stay there between half an hour to 45 minutes and then she would go to school with them.
PN170
MR CHAMPION: What time do you drop your daughter at Natasha's place?
PN171
THE INTERPRETER: I have to leave my daughter there between 7.30, if I don't I will be late for work.
PN172
MR CHAMPION: So you leave your daughter there at 7.30, where do you go next?
PN173
THE INTERPRETER: Then I have to collect my son. I have to collect my son and leave him at Melbourne High at Toorak.
PN174
MR CHAMPION: Okay. And what time do you get to Melbourne High?
PN175
THE INTERPRETER: I cannot be later than 7.48. Ideally it should be 7.30. I did leave beyond 7.48 then I will be late for work, especially when there is traffic jams on the way.
PN176
MR CHAMPION: And what time did your shift start at Richmond, Mr Liu?
PN177
THE INTERPRETER: 7.55.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN178
MR CHAMPION: And is your wife able to assist in the mornings?
[10.33am]
PN179
THE INTERPRETER: My wife cannot.
PN180
MR CHAMPION: Why not?
PN181
THE INTERPRETER: Because she runs a milk bar she is self employed and she is the only one who works there.
PN182
MR CHAMPION: What time does she start work at the milk bar?
PN183
THE INTERPRETER: Normally before 6.30. Normally by 6.30. By 6.45 she has to be at the milk bar. Also in the morning she has to collect the newspaper and milk.
PN184
MR CHAMPION: Can I take you to the other end of the day now, Mr Liu, and I want to ask you about when you have been working at Richmond, how your routine works in the afternoon. What time did your shift finish at Richmond?
PN185
THE INTERPRETER: Four o'clock.
PN186
MR CHAMPION: Okay. And what did you do at 4 o'clock?
PN187
THE INTERPRETER: Normally 3.30 my son finish at Melbourne High then she would walk on foot to where I work. Walk on foot to where I work. If he was late then I will collect him half way on his way to my place where I work.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN188
MR CHAMPION: So after your son came to you or you collected your son half way where did you go then?
PN189
THE INTERPRETER: Then I go to collect my daughter.
PN190
MR CHAMPION: Where do you collect your daughter from?
PN191
THE INTERPRETER: Normally she plays with that person's parents called Natasha, if she was there to supervise her then I would normally go and collect her from the school. If I was late then Natasha would have taken her to her home. Then I have to return to the place where my mum lives. She is also in Box Hill.
PN192
MR CHAMPION: Before we get to your mum, what time did you, normally, what time do you get back to Kew and your daughter?
PN193
THE INTERPRETER: What time?
PN194
MR CHAMPION: What time do you get back to Kew and your daughter?
PN195
THE INTERPRETER: Normally 4.20 I will be in Kew because I knock off, you can describe as early and I don't have to go through the city. So 20 minutes I will be in Kew.
PN196
MR CHAMPION: So you get to your daughter at 4.20 and then I interrupted. You said you go to your mother's?
PN197
THE INTERPRETER: On my way home I have to go to my mum's place because she also lives in Box Hill.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN198
MR CHAMPION: Yes. And why do you have to go there?
PN199
THE INTERPRETER: Because my mum this year she is 82. She is 82 years old.
PN200
MR CHAMPION: And what do you do for her?
PN201
THE INTERPRETER: Because she is a disabled person she has got early stage of Alzheimer's disease. Because of her age she has got two of her arteries in her heart like infarct, because of her age they cannot operate on her but she is constantly on medication. First the doctor suggested she is not to use gas because at one time she forgot to turn it on/off, so I have to look after, you know, what she eats and so - - -
PN202
THE COMMISSIONER: She lives alone then?
PN203
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, she lives alone. Because my place is very small, only got two rooms.
PN204
MR CHAMPION: Is your wife able to assist you in the afternoons?
PN205
THE INTERPRETER: She cannot because she is self employed and she has to work there until night time before she could get home.
PN206
MR CHAMPION: All right, thank you, Mr Liu. Now I want to ask you some questions about how going to Laverton might impact on your routine. Just wait for the question if you would, Mr Liu, and we will follow it through as quickly as we can.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN207
THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
PN208
MR CHAMPION: Are you aware that NHP is providing a bus that leaves Richmond at 7.20 am?
PN209
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN210
MR CHAMPION: Are you able to say what time you would need to leave home to be at Richmond at 7.20 am?
PN211
THE INTERPRETER: 7.20?
PN212
MR CHAMPION: 7.20.
PN213
THE INTERPRETER: I myself have to check, you know, three times like hers, the route. 14 October I did once. 12 October I also try, you know, going to work and coming back. 18 October I also checked the same time.
PN214
MR CHAMPION: As a result of these rehearsals, Mr Liu, what time do you have to leave home to get to Richmond at 7.20 am?
PN215
THE INTERPRETER: I calculated if I had to be at NHP Richmond at 7.20 am that means my daughter had to get up at 10 past six in the morning.
PN216
MR CHAMPION: What time do you have to leave home?
PN217
THE INTERPRETER: I cannot go beyond 6.35 in the morning at the latest.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN218
MR CHAMPION: 6.35, and what time would you get to Natasha's?
PN219
THE INTERPRETER: In that case I could not go to Natasha because they wouldn't willing to have her stay so early.
PN220
MR CHAMPION: Have you asked them?
PN221
THE INTERPRETER: I make inquiries but, you know, their school also have before school facilities and if we were a bit late and Natasha, if I got there a bit late then Natasha would be up and then she would be able to play with my daughter but if we go there a bit early that wouldn't be the case.
PN222
MR CHAMPION: Well, is it possible for you to drop your daughter at Natasha's at 7 am?
PN223
THE INTERPRETER: Impossible. They wouldn't have got up that early.
PN224
MR CHAMPION: Is it possible for you to take your daughter to Kew East Primary School - sorry, I beg your pardon, Kew East Primary School before school care at 7 am?
PN225
THE INTERPRETER: The school do have that facility starting at seven.
PN226
MR CHAMPION: Okay. And what is your attitude to before school care?
PN227
THE INTERPRETER: I have gone there to observe that before school facility. Normally between 7 am to 7.15 there is hardly anybody there mostly. Sometimes there is only one child there.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN228
MR CHAMPION: Yes. And if you were to catch the bus at Richmond at 7.20 what are the options for your son?
PN229
THE INTERPRETER: My son has got no options. He either had to go to school himself or he has to come to me, you know, in my car. He would have to leave home very early together with me.
PN230
MR CHAMPION: Can you drop your son at Melbourne High at 7.15 so you can get to the Richmond bus at 7.20?
PN231
THE INTERPRETER: If I leave at - if I at 7 o'clock go to Melbourne High and then come back I wouldn't be able to catch up with the bus.
PN232
MR CHAMPION: Okay. What is the earliest you can drop your son at Melbourne High?
PN233
THE INTERPRETER: The earliest, you know, you can drop him at earliest you want to but he just have to sit outside the school until 9 o'clock before they open.
PN234
MR CHAMPION: Is it possible for him to take public transport?
PN235
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, if he is to catch public transport he has to catch two lots of trains.
PN236
MR CHAMPION: Where would he catch the train from?
PN237
THE INTERPRETER: Not catching a train. One lot is bus, the other lot is train. From my home have to catch one lot of bus to Box Hill Station and then from Box Hill Station to Toorak.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN238
MR CHAMPION: Do you know what it would cost him to take public transport?
PN239
THE INTERPRETER: He is a concession, student's ticket, $24 between blue zone to yellow zone.
PN240
MR CHAMPION: It is $24 a week, Mr Liu?
PN241
THE INTERPRETER: $24 a week. Per day is 4.80 but normally we buy the weekly one.
PN242
MR CHAMPION: Okay. Now - - -
PN243
THE INTERPRETER: I also want to add the before school I have to pay $6 for the - after school is $9. If you don't turn up you still have to pay.
PN244
MR CHAMPION: Now, I want to focus now on if you didn't catch the bus to Laverton, the company bus, how would you get to Laverton?
PN245
THE INTERPRETER: The only choice is I have to drive my own car.
PN246
MR CHAMPION: Okay. And what model car do you drive?
PN247
THE INTERPRETER: I am driving a Honda Civic with '95 engine. I register in '96.
PN248
MR CHAMPION: What model is the car, what year?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN249
THE INTERPRETER: The whole body and the engine was '95. Sorry, my engine was '85.
PN250
MR CHAMPION: 1985?
PN251
THE INTERPRETER: Registered in '86.
PN252
MR CHAMPION: Okay. Not a new car, Mr Liu?
PN253
THE WITNESS: Hey?
PN254
MR CHAMPION: It is not a new car?
PN255
THE WITNESS: No, no.
PN256
THE INTERPRETER: No, no. It is still using petrol that is not unleaded. So, you know, fuel is more expensive, at least four cents more.
PN257
MR CHAMPION: And have you done the drive from Richmond to Laverton?
PN258
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I did. Under good weather I try. Under bad weather when it rains I also try.
PN259
MR CHAMPION: Okay. And when you drove from Richmond to Laverton did you go on Citylink?
PN260
THE INTERPRETER: Firstly I want to say I try eight times. My car is not made to such an extent it can take for such a long journey. The other point is my car is very old and very small.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN261
MR CHAMPION: Can I ask you to answer my question if you would, Mr Liu. When you drive from River Street, Richmond to Laverton do you go on Citylink?
PN262
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN263
MR CHAMPION: And what is the one way toll?
PN264
THE INTERPRETER: One way about $3.75. It will increase according to the Consumer Price Index.
PN265
MR CHAMPION: If you drove from Melbourne High, which I think is in Forest Hill Drive, South Yarra to Citylink - I beg your pardon, Forest Hill Drive, South Yarra to Laverton, do you go on Citylink?
PN266
THE INTERPRETER: Forest?
PN267
MR CHAMPION: Forest Hill Drive, South Yarra to Laverton, do you go on Citylink?
PN268
THE INTERPRETER: For Citylink the trip is shorter and a lot faster. I tried to run through Alexandra Avenue. I tried not to go through Citylink. Sorry, Commissioner, this applicant is sort of - he is just changing.
PN269
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN270
THE INTERPRETER: Could I ask him to make it a bit clearer because when I translate with him one minute he just changes something else? It is very hard because I don't know what is happening.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN271
THE COMMISSIONER: Can you ask him to give concise answers.
PN272
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. The first one I tried Citylink the time was shorter and faster.
PN273
MR CHAMPION: Yes.
PN274
THE INTERPRETER: If I don't go through Citylink, go through Alexander Avenue near Melbourne High, compared for me to use the freeway it is 20 minutes more and I have to run three kilometres more. Why, because there is a lot of people who try to avoid the Citylink so they all then queue up there.
PN275
MR CHAMPION: And when you were using Citylink driving from Melbourne High where do you get on to Citylink?
PN276
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know what they are all called, just go along that road and drive a little bit more.
PN277
MR CHAMPION: Do you have a Melway's map as a reference there?
PN278
THE INTERPRETER: He has got a map, yes.
PN279
THE WITNESS: A Melway map.
PN280
MR CHAMPION: What is the reference? Where is where - could you tell me the grid reference - - -
PN281
THE INTERPRETER: Page 44, B13.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN282
PN283
MR CHAMPION: I understand it is a contentious issue, Commissioner.
PN284
Mr Liu, have you marked with a cross where you get on?
PN285
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I have marked it.
PN286
MR CHAMPION: Now, Mr Liu, can I ask you lastly what is your current situation in terms of when was the last day you worked at Richmond?
PN287
THE INTERPRETER: The 22nd, it was a Friday, November.
PN288
MR CHAMPION: 22 November was the last day you worked at Richmond?
PN289
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that was a Friday.
PN290
MR CHAMPION: Today is 22 November. I am not very good at dates.
PN291
THE INTERPRETER: I am ..... October.
PN292
THE WITNESS: Yes, sorry.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XN MR CHAMPION
PN293
MR CHAMPION: Are you on annual leave?
PN294
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I am.
PN295
PN296
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, I am going to ask you some questions this morning but I want you to understand before I ask you them that I am going to say things to you about your evidence and I am going to say that you have made some things up and you have exaggerated other things and the reason that you have done this is because you want to get a redundancy package.
PN297
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN298
MR WOOD: But I want you to understand that the company thinks that you are a very good worker and that they want to have you at Laverton. It is just that I have got to say these things to you for the purposes of the case.
PN299
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN300
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, I want to start with the beginning of your employment with NHP.
PN301
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN302
MR WOOD: And in paragraph 5 of your statement, have you got your first statement which is exhibit C4?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN303
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN304
MR WOOD: What I want to say to you is that what you have said in paragraph 5 isn't quite true.
PN305
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN306
MR WOOD: And I will hand you some employment declaration forms during your period of employment with NHP. I think the Commission has got these documents.
PN307
THE COMMISSIONER: In your folder, are they?
PN308
MR WOOD: Yes. I am sorry. We can hand up another copy. They are not in the folder, Commissioner. My learned friend has got a copy of them. There are a number of documents that I have handed to you, Mr Liu.
PN309
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN310
MR WOOD: The first one is dated 13 April 1988 and that confirms your appointment starting August '88.
PN311
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN312
MR WOOD: And the third document is a record that you filled in in August 1988.
PN313
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN314
MR WOOD: Do you agree with that?
PN315
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I saw it.
PN316
MR WOOD: And that shows that as at August 1988 you were living in Kew. Do you agree with that?
PN317
THE INTERPRETER: I lived there very shortly, very short, between one to two months.
PN318
MR WOOD: And you accept that you were living in Kew when you took the job in Richmond?
PN319
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, at the time I was. Yes.
PN320
MR WOOD: And in fact you didn't move to Prahran until 1989. If you have a look at the next document, the fourth one in the pile - sorry, the fifth one in the pile, that shows you had moved to Prahran by March 1989, do you agree with that?
[11.01am]
PN321
THE INTERPRETER: Even before I was living in Prahran. Before this date I was already living at Prahran but this is only the time I fill in the form.
PN322
MR WOOD: Yes, that is right. Before March - by March 1989 you were living in Prahran.
PN323
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN324
MR WOOD: But in August 1988 you were living in Kew?
PN325
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN326
MR WOOD: And if you turn to the next document that shows in 1992 you moved to St Kilda?
PN327
THE INTERPRETER: East St Kilda, only two streets away. Very close.
PN328
MR WOOD: And then if you have a look at the next document which is dated October '96, it shows that you have moved to Reservoir. Do you agree with that?
PN329
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN330
MR WOOD: And then if you look at the very last document which is dated 1994 it shows that you had in fact moved to Reservoir by at least April 1994. Do you agree with that?
PN331
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN332
MR WOOD: I tender those documents, Commissioner.
PN333
THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps we will mark them collectively.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN334
PN335
MR WOOD: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN336
Now, Mr Liu, I am going to ask you a number of these questions in my cross-examination of you. It is just for the record I have formally got to say this to you to give you the opportunity to respond, but I just want to repeat, the company doesn't have any ill will, doesn't think badly of you because of the questions that I am asking. In the second sentence in paragraph 5 where you say:
PN337
At the time I was living in Prahran.
PN338
THE INTERPRETER: Paragraph 5, page 2, sir?
PN339
MR WOOD: Yes. Having looked at the documents that I have just shown you, do you accept that that statement is wrong, that at the time you were living in Kew?
PN340
THE INTERPRETER: This is wrong but when I was in Kew I was temporary, staying in someone's home - at the time when I was looking for a job I was staying at a friend's home. They were not receiving any money from me so it is not something that I am going to stay permanently.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN341
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, whenever I ask you one of these questions where I say to you you have exaggerated or it is untrue I don't want an explanation of it because Mr Champion can get up and if he wants you to explain why something is untrue then he can ask you those questions, otherwise we will be here for days and days.
PN342
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN343
MR WOOD: I want to know ask you some questions about the union.
PN344
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN345
MR WOOD: You say in paragraph 3 of your statement that you are a member of the ETU.
PN346
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN347
MR WOOD: And I understand that you have had dealings with the ETU, with Mr Micallef who is sitting here in the body of the court room, about your entitlement to redundancy?
PN348
THE INTERPRETER: Mr Micallef, sorry?
PN349
MR WOOD: Mr Micallef just here. Frank.
PN350
THE INTERPRETER: You mean the union?
PN351
MR WOOD: The union, yes.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN352
THE INTERPRETER: He is our manager. I did not directly discuss it with him.
PN353
MR WOOD: Perhaps I can deal with it this way, Mr Liu. Do you remember coming in one morning in October 2003 to Frank, Mr Micallef's office, with a document?
PN354
THE INTERPRETER: 2003?
PN355
MR WOOD: 2003.
PN356
THE INTERPRETER: All three of them - all three I have never been in contact with him. He stays in his office. He very seldom comes down. Only recently, only in 2004 then I started to approach him and discuss it with him. So the all managers got the office there, they very seldom came down. But 2004 he did come down.
PN357
MR WOOD: Yes, I apologise, it is my problem the date. The enterprise agreement was 2003, the conversation that I am trying to ask you about is October 2004. I am sorry. Yes, October 2004.
PN358
THE INTERPRETER: I never had contact with him in 2003. The more direct manager called Sergeant Steven, then I contacted that one. At the time I had no contact with Frank because he is a manager, one therefore higher.
PN359
MR WOOD: Perhaps I will come forward from October 2004 to something that we can get a fix on by reference to the documents. I wonder if the witness can be shown exhibit FM6?
PN360
THE INTERPRETER: Which one, sorry? Is it page 3 here?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN361
MR WOOD: We will hand it to you, Mr Liu. It is exhibit FM6 to Mr Micallef's statement, Commissioner. Thank you. Do you see that document there that you have in front of you, that is your handwriting on that document?
PN362
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN363
MR WOOD: And your handwriting is on a photocopy of part of the enterprise agreement?
PN364
THE INTERPRETER: Mainly, most important, I just want to say, copy of the EBA, you know, the cross here. To prove that, you know, my calculation was based on this EBA redundancy. Because I have no further language to be able to express what I am trying to say and that is the only way I can do it.
PN365
MR WOOD: You gave this document to Frank, Mr Micallef, in his office on the first level of the River Street office at about 8 am on 26 August 2004. Do you remember doing that?
PN366
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN367
MR WOOD: And do you remember that you were angry and that you came in to Mr Micallef's office in a rush and you slammed this bit of a paper on his desk and said, "That's what I want, I want the money."
PN368
THE INTERPRETER: No, no, no. He was walking with a few other people in the office early in the morning. I just say, "Good morning Frank" and I just hand this to him. That is why I am here today, to clear my reputation, because on the statement Frank sort of have damaged my reputation. After I gave it to him and then I walk off and Frank say, "Come on, come on, come into my office." But it is an invitation, that is why I enter into his office. At the time there were a lot of people in the office who were witnesses. I can ask them to be a witness. They will be quite willing to do that. If the Commission wants that I can give the names of the witnesses to the Commissioner but I have to protect their identity.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN369
THE COMMISSIONER: The Commissioner just wants him to answer the questions.
PN370
MR WOOD: I will ask you another question. Before I do, Mr Liu, this is the third time I have said this, I just want you to be quite sure that there is nothing - the company doesn't bear you any ill will. It doesn't regard you as a bad worker. If there is anything in those statements that suggests your reputation has been smeared or any way affected, the company doesn't feel like that towards you. It wants you to work at Laverton, do you understand that?
PN371
THE INTERPRETER: I just want to show the difference that I hand the letter as compared to I just, you know, just dropped it onto the table. It is quite a big difference.
PN372
MR WOOD: It is just that you said, Mr Liu, that you wanted to come here to clear your reputation, to clear your name. There is nothing from the company's perspective that you need to clear. Do you understand that?
PN373
THE INTERPRETER: I was there myself and I just want to explain, you know, the manner it was presented and, you know, the procedure, how it happened.
PN374
MR WOOD: Perhaps I will step back one day. Do you remember the day before this discussion on 26 August, the day before on 25 August there was a meeting between Mr Micallef who is in the body of the court room, Mr Stewart Hamill who is also in the body of the court room?
PN375
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, what is the name of the other gentleman?
PN376
MR WOOD: Mr Stewart Hamill. Just let me finish. And also a representative of the ETU, Mr Shaun Leane.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN377
THE COMMISSIONER: I think it is pronounced Leane, Shaun Leane.
PN378
MR WOOD: Leane, I beg your pardon. Shaun Leane.
PN379
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I remember.
PN380
MR WOOD: And do you remember at that discussion there were many attempts made by Mr Micallef and Mr Hamill and Mr Leane to deal with the sort of problems that you had raised about the move from Richmond to Laverton?
PN381
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the last person?
PN382
MR WOOD: Mr Leane.
PN383
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes, because I request the union to represent me.
PN384
MR WOOD: After that meeting broke up you had a separate meeting with Mr Leane straight after this meeting where you were very upset with him because he wasn't trying to get a redundancy package for you. Do you remember that?
PN385
THE INTERPRETER: I was not upset. It was just that I misunderstood whether it was 50 per cent or 15 and because I have been working there for such a long time, $15,000. I didn't know the company suggested they might consider $15,000, they might consider for my redundancy because at the time I misunderstood it was 50 per cent. The company said, you know, 15 under consideration, 50 was not. So I said if not then I was going to hand in this one. The next morning I calculated and I handed in.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN386
MR WOOD: That is right. Because - that is enough, Mr Liu. That is enough.
PN387
THE INTERPRETER: Just the misunderstanding of the figures.
PN388
MR WOOD: Because you were unhappy with what Mr Leane was arguing for, you came to see Mr Micallef the next morning and said, "This is what I want, I want the full package"?
PN389
THE INTERPRETER: Because my English was not very good so I, you know, I did not hear. I make mistake and that is why I want to hand in this one.
PN390
MR WOOD: And from that time on, 26 August, you haven't had any further support from Mr Leane, have you?
PN391
THE INTERPRETER: He said, "If you want to find for this within ETU they have got an in-house solicitor, you can ask them."
PN392
MR WOOD: And you have gone and seen a solicitor at Maurice Blackburn?
PN393
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN394
MR WOOD: And you have now got a barrister acting for you?
PN395
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, because Maurice Blackburn, that is when I could get the barrister to help me in this matter.
PN396
MR WOOD: And the ETU isn't supporting you by paying for the solicitors or the barrister, are they?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN397
MR CHAMPION: I just don't see the relevance of that. I don't see how that can test Mr Liu's credit or do anything of the kind, as to who is paying the bills.
PN398
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, when there is an objection you just have to - only answer the questions.
PN399
THE INTERPRETER: Now that you told me, that is the ETU would be responsible for my legal fees when I win or lost - - -
PN400
MR CHAMPION: Mr Liu.
PN401
THE COMMISSIONER: Stop, stop.
PN402
MR CHAMPION: I appreciate Mr Wood is trying to do his best and with the difficulties of the interpretation and stuff but I just don't think who is paying legal fees which I understood to be the thrust of the question that was asked, I object to it and I just don't think that it is of assistance. I don't think it is relevant and that is the basis for the objection.
PN403
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think the thrust of - well, he will speak for himself, but I think where he is going is he is suggesting that the union has abandoned the claim, which isn't irrelevant.
PN404
MR CHAMPION: In my submission this matter must turn on the construction of the enterprise bargain. What the union's attitude may be to it is neither here nor there.
PN405
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it might be something the Commission wants to give weight to or not and I think that is where Mr Wood was going. I don't want to express a view about it.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN406
MR CHAMPION: No. Well, I don't want to get in the stew about it either, Commissioner, and I want to keep moving, but I didn't see who was paying the legal bills, which is my understanding of the question, was going to be of great assistance but I understand the ruling and I understand that.
PN407
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I will just say to Mr Wood, it may well be even if the union is not paying the bill they still support his claim.
PN408
MR WOOD: Yes, well, Mr Micallef is going to say something about that in his evidence.
PN409
It may be your answer to my question is you just don't know, Mr Liu, or it may be you do know and you can answer my question.
PN410
THE INTERPRETER: Which one?
PN411
MR WOOD: You, yourself are responsible for the running of this claim and no-one from the ETU has told you that they are going to support you in a financial way?
PN412
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know of such service - - -
PN413
MR WOOD: I take it the answer - - -
PN414
THE INTERPRETER: Because I have to ..... it is such an impending matter. Even if I have to sell my house I still have to settle this problem.
PN415
THE COMMISSIONER: He clearly does understand the question. Except that I think that what the witness is saying is he is paying for it.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN416
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN417
THE INTERPRETER: This case is how to solve the problem of my mother and my children. Don't worry about the, you know, finance side.
PN418
THE COMMISSIONER: Stop. Please ask him to desist. We all understand what the case is about.
PN419
MR WOOD: I now want to ask you about the document itself that you have in front of you.
[11.27am]
PN420
THE INTERPRETER: This one, sir?
PN421
MR WOOD: Yes, that is correct. When did you produce that document, Mr Liu?
PN422
THE INTERPRETER: The next day after the meeting, 26th. Early in the morning.
PN423
MR WOOD: Where did you get the piece of paper that you wrote upon?
PN424
THE INTERPRETER: This paper that I wrote on?
PN425
MR WOOD: Yes.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN426
THE INTERPRETER: I have got a copy of the ETU, the whole process. Normally I have photocopy a lot.
PN427
MR WOOD: Do you keep it in the papers that you have brought with you normally?
PN428
THE INTERPRETER: At the time I did not. Sometimes I have written it out at home.
PN429
THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just stop you there. The question is where did this piece of paper come from. Did he take it out of his agreement or who gave it to him?
PN430
THE INTERPRETER: In the workshop I have got a document about ETA.
PN431
THE COMMISSIONER: EBA.
PN432
THE INTERPRETER: EBA. I have also got a copy at home. I have a copy myself.
PN433
THE COMMISSIONER: So he took it out of that copy, he didn't get given it by anyone? He didn't get the page given to him by anyone? Sorry, I didn't mean to take - - -
PN434
MR WOOD: No, no, I think it is much more direct, Commissioner. I might adopt that approach. I want to show you another document, Mr Liu, which is I think a copy of the document that you are talking about. I will hand a copy to the Commission as well. Can you turn to page 7 of that document, Mr Liu. Do you see at the bottom of that document there is a clause 17, redundancy? And do you see it is dated 1 October 2003 at the bottom and do you see it is page 7?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN435
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN436
MR WOOD: And do you see on the document that you gave to Mr Micallef is dated 1 October 2003, page 7?
PN437
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN438
MR WOOD: Have a look at the rest of this document that I have just given to you which is the NHP Electrical Engineering Products Pty Ltd Enterprise Agreement 2003.
PN439
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN440
MR WOOD: Is that the document that you used to produce the document that you handed to Mr Micallef?
PN441
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN442
MR WOOD: I tender that document, Commissioner.
PN443
THE COMMISSIONER: The one you have just handed to me?
PN444
MR WOOD: Yes, the one the witness has just - - -
PN445
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN446
MR WOOD: Do you remember whether you had this document at home or at work when you produced the document that you gave Mr Micallef?
PN447
THE INTERPRETER: I go to the place that does the photocopying. I just fold it up like that and I take a photocopy. Mainly I just want this particular paragraph.
PN448
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN449
THE COMMISSIONER: That is not the question. Tell the witness that is not the question he was asked.
PN450
THE INTERPRETER: I myself keep a copy at home.
PN451
MR WOOD: This agreement was the product of months and months of negotiation, Mr Liu. Do you remember the negotiations that went to producing this agreement?
PN452
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN453
MR WOOD: And do I take it the reason you know about the negotiations is that you used to work alongside two of the employees who were involved in the negotiations for this agreement, Mr Dennis Flannery and Mr Lloyd Black?
PN454
THE INTERPRETER: Flannery, is it?
PN455
MR WOOD: Flannery.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN456
THE INTERPRETER: Lloyd Black, was it?
PN457
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN458
THE INTERPRETER: I had nothing to do with this. I have nothing to do with document, only the representative of the union worked with them.
PN459
MR WOOD: I understand.
PN460
THE INTERPRETER: I have no right.
PN461
MR CHAMPION: Perhaps I will break it up. Did you work alongside Mr Dennis Flannery and Mr Lloyd Black during 2002 and 2003?
PN462
THE INTERPRETER: Different. He is in PF line. He is not .....
PN463
MR WOOD: I understand that you are on different lines, but physically Mr Flannery and Mr Black - just hold on, Mr Liu. Mr Flannery and Mr Black worked within one to two metres of your station. Isn't that correct?
PN464
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that is correct, but our jobs were different.
PN465
MR WOOD: Don't need to go on. And you know that Mr Flannery and Mr Black were involved in the negotiations for this agreement?
PN466
THE INTERPRETER: The other one called Brendan I know, you know, two workshop away, so is different. It is working at the switchboard, very far away from me.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN467
MR WOOD: Did you or did you not know that Mr Flannery and Mr Black were involved in negotiations for this enterprise agreement?
PN468
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I know but as to what they have arrived at I don't know.
PN469
MR WOOD: I will come to that in a moment, Mr Liu. You only need to answer the questions that I ask you. You were aware that they were involved in negotiations from December 2002 through to 11 November 2003, weren't you?
PN470
THE INTERPRETER: As to how long I did not know. I knew they were involved but as to from when to when I have no right to ask.
PN471
MR WOOD: More roughly, for the whole of 2003 until you voted on the agreement in the carpark at Richmond in mid November 2003?
PN472
THE INTERPRETER: As to, you know, what they were doing or what they were negotiating I have no idea. Until I got this paper - - -
PN473
MR WOOD: I am not asking you that. I am just - I am not asking the witness that. I am asking him whether he knew that Mr Flannery and Mr Black through the whole of 2003, until the agreement was voted on on 11 November 2003 were involved in the negotiations for the agreement?
PN474
THE INTERPRETER: I should know, yes.
PN475
MR WOOD: Do you agree with that?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN476
THE INTERPRETER: Upstairs I knew they had meeting but as to what they were discussing I did not know.
PN477
MR WOOD: Now, what I want to say to you now, Mr Liu, is that you were aware of what they were discussing, at least the major parts of what they were discussing because they talked to you about it after they came downstairs from the meeting back to their work station which was just one to two metres from you. Do you agree with that?
PN478
THE INTERPRETER: I did not involve. They wouldn't sort of specifically talk to me and on top of that my comprehension with the language won't be able to communicate with me anyway.
PN479
MR WOOD: So are you seriously telling the Commission, are you, Mr Liu, that for a year or the best of a year two fellow work mates who worked one to two metres before you and were involved in negotiations which set your terms and conditions of employment didn't ever speak to you about what was being discussed, is that what you are saying?
PN480
THE INTERPRETER: Finally when I formally knew was when they had all this written down and that day in the carpark when they had a meeting and formally and now it was then I knew, formally knew.
PN481
MR WOOD: I see. Well, you are saying they didn't talk to you, are you, about anything that was going on in these meetings in January, or February, or March, or April, or May, or June, or July, or August, or September, or October 2003, is that your evidence?
PN482
THE INTERPRETER: Every time there was a meeting and then the union themselves had a meeting outside but because of my command of English what they are trying to say I just couldn't understand.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN483
MR WOOD: Yes, I am not talking about the meetings outside which were conducted by Mr Bruce Sharp, the union organiser, after each of the meetings upstairs. I was going to come to that in a moment. I am talking about discussions with another two people, Mr Flannery and Mr Black, at or near your work station during 2003.
PN484
THE INTERPRETER: No such thing - whatever they discussed they did not specifically come and tell me what they discussed. Only sort of I make inquiry through other people. I got drips and bits and pieces and pieces and on top of that while we are working the manager, Frank, wouldn't allow us to talk like this anyway. You can only discuss about - - -
PN485
MR WOOD: That is enough, Mr Liu.
PN486
THE INTERPRETER: - - - if you have got any problems.
PN487
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, you have - Mr Liu, Mr Liu, you have answered the question.
PN488
THE INTERPRETER: Those are very complicated and lengthy matter.
PN489
MR WOOD: I want to ask you now about the conversations, that is, the meetings that you had with Mr Bruce Sharp, the union organiser, during the same period 2003 outside the Richmond factory in the carpark. Do you remember those? Do you know who Mr Bruce Sharp is?
PN490
THE INTERPRETER: Are you talking about the ETU person, the negotiator?
PN491
MR WOOD: Yes.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN492
THE INTERPRETER: Because I did not know who is who.
PN493
MR WOOD: Do you remember that during 2003 every time there was a meeting upstairs on the first floor for which Mr Flannery and Mr Black would go and therefore leave your area rather empty, there would be a meeting either that day or the next day outside in the carpark conducted by a union official? Do you recall that?
PN494
THE INTERPRETER: If there were problems, you know, they would invite, you know, members have they got any problem and they can discuss, yes, of course.
PN495
MR WOOD: Do you recall that there were many such meetings during 2003 in the carpark for which all the employees were paid to attend?
PN496
THE INTERPRETER: Not very many but every now and then if there is any problems, yes.
PN497
MR WOOD: Do you recall that during the beginning of 2003 there were problems that the wage rate, the wage increase wasn't high enough? Do you remember that?
PN498
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN499
MR WOOD: And do you remember that there were other issues discussed at these meetings including the move to Laverton and whether people would get redundancy pay?
PN500
THE INTERPRETER: I heard some workers say, you know, is it true that the company has to move, when are they going to move. I did not directly ask the company but I make inquiries among the workers. None of them said. We didn't know when they are actually going to move. I sometimes even asked Frank when we - - -
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN501
MR WOOD: I am just asking Mr Liu about - I am just asking Mr Liu about the meetings that occurred in the carpark conducted by the union during 2003 and I am asking Mr Liu whether he recalls, as he recalled about a wage increase, there was a discussion in those meetings about the move to Laverton and about whether employees would obtain a redundancy?
PN502
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN503
MR WOOD: And do you remember that the discussion had in those meetings was along the line of people will have to go to Laverton, there won't be any redundancies but we will get a payment, that is a cash payment for the move?
PN504
THE INTERPRETER: They only mentioned the company was going to supply the bus, to consider people were going to move there but they did not consider people like myself with my circumstances.
PN505
MR WOOD: I understand that. But you agree with my proposition that what you understood that these meetings were telling you was that there was going to be a move to Laverton, there weren't going to be redundancies, there was going to be a bus and a cash payment to all the employees who moved?
PN506
MR CHAMPION: Just before Mr Liu - the previous question was - Mr Wood has repeated the question and the difficulty is it has got a number of parts. It has a move to Laverton, a denial of redundancy payments and so forth.
PN507
MR WOOD: I will break it down.
PN508
MR CHAMPION: I understand the - - -
PN509
THE COMMISSIONER: One at a time might be better.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN510
MR CHAMPION: One at a time just so Mr Liu can be clear as to what he is conceding, or being asked to concede.
PN511
MR WOOD: I didn't mean to trap the witness. Just given the sort of glacial pace that we are - - -
PN512
THE COMMISSIONER: It wasn't seen that way.
PN513
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN514
Mr Liu, I want to talk to you about certain issues that were discussed in these meetings during 2003 in the carpark outside the Richmond factory and I want to ask you whether certain issues were concerned and I think you agreed that the following three issues at least were discussed, that there was a dispute about how big the wage increase would be. Do you agree with that?
PN515
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I agree with this one.
PN516
MR WOOD: And do you agree there was a discussion about the move to Laverton?
PN517
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN518
MR WOOD: And do you agree there was a discussion about providing a bus from Richmond to Laverton?
PN519
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, this is aiming at the people who are going but not aiming at people like myself who is not going. They just ignore us.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN520
MR WOOD: I am not asking for your commentary, Mr Liu, whether you thought this proposal was good or bad, just whether you were aware that these issues were discussed.
PN521
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, they discussed, yes.
PN522
MR WOOD: And do you agree there was a discussion that all the employees would obtain a cash payment for moving to Laverton?
PN523
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, this were paid to people who were willing to move there, no problem.
PN524
MR WOOD: And you agree, don't you, there was a discussion that everyone would have to go to Laverton?
PN525
THE INTERPRETER: I did not hear that they forced everyone. I did not hear that everyone has to be moved to Laverton. Even on the document there is no indication.
PN526
MR WOOD: Are you seriously suggesting, Mr Liu, that in these discussions which went for almost 12 months that it was not suggested that everyone was going from Richmond to Laverton?
PN527
THE INTERPRETER: They said workshop move to Laverton but whether I am going to move I don't know because my job was very, very independent. I myself only - - -
PN528
MR WOOD: I understand that, Mr Liu.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN529
THE INTERPRETER: I myself was doing the job on my own. I don't get the - - -
PN530
MR WOOD: I understand that, Mr Liu. But you accept that, do you, in answer to my question that it was discussed in these meetings that all the employees would be going to Laverton including all the employees within the workshop?
PN531
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know that everyone in the workshop. Maybe they want to keep part of it but that is the company's right. They did not individually talk to me and they did not give me an application form or anything. They did not individually discuss with me or survey individually.
PN532
MR WOOD: I am not asking you about - I am not asking you about - Mr Liu, Mr Liu, please try and answer my question. I am not asking you about discussions that you had with Mr Flannery or Mr Black, or discussions you had with Mr Micallef or Mr Hamill. I am not asking you about any other - Mr Liu.
PN533
THE COMMISSIONER: Can we please get the witness to listen to the question.
PN534
MR WOOD: Perhaps I will put it this way, in the meetings that you had outside the Richmond in the carpark conducted by the union, in those meetings you were told that the whole workshop was going to Laverton, weren't you?
[11.55am]
PN535
THE INTERPRETER: I myself, they do not say everyone. The majority of the workshop has to move, but maybe they want to keep part of it.
PN536
MR WOOD: I am not asking for Mr Liu to give his spin, to give his understanding. Mr Liu - - -
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN537
THE COMMISSIONER: Just stop. I will ask a question. Did you hear it discussed at those meetings?
PN538
THE INTERPRETER: Discussion of moving, but - - -
PN539
THE COMMISSIONER: No, no, no, everyone in the workshop moving.
PN540
THE INTERPRETER: The majority ..... to my department, where it is going to move, I did not know. I was very concerned about that. Every time I made inquiries, was my department, whether my department had to move, when it was going to move and I want to talk to the company, but nobody responded to me.
PN541
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wood.
PN542
MR WOOD: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN543
I want to leave this topic, Mr Liu, but I just want to ask one question. Who from the union or who was it, can you recall, that said a majority of the workshop or many of the workshop or most of the workshop would move in these meetings?
PN544
THE INTERPRETER: The people from the union, when there is no specific time, I wasn't even interested, then I went to have my meal, because they had no specific time. Sometime I even return to my own car and have my meal.
PN545
THE COMMISSIONER: But the question is - repeat the question.
PN546
MR WOOD: Yes. Mr Liu, at the end of this case, I am going to make certain submissions about your evidence and your tendency - I am not saying this as a threat - I just want you to understand, about your tendency not to answer directly direct questions.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN547
THE INTERPRETER: I want to tell you specifically, I was not quite clear, something I did not know. I cannot say that I 100 per cent clear, unless the company wrote me a letter, then I would be 100 per cent clear. They gave me the form then I sign, then I would be 100 per cent.
PN548
THE WITNESS: I no understand, tell to my son, ask me what question, after - I understand.
PN549
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, I am going to ask you a direct question. If you don't know or you can't recall or you don't remember, just tell me that.
PN550
THE INTERPRETER: I know the whole process. I was very concerned, because it was so urgent.
PN551
THE COMMISSIONER: Just stop there. Mr Champion will be the advocate and put his case for him. That is not what he is supposed to be doing. Just answer questions.
PN552
MR WOOD: Now, I suspect the answer to this is that you can't remember or you can't recall, Mr Liu, but I don't want to go off on 10 minutes of assorted byplay. Can you remember in these meetings outside the Richmond factory, conducted by the union, whether any person from the union told you that it was only a majority of people from the workshop or most of the people from the workshop that would move and if you can't remember, that is fine?
PN553
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, specifically just move.
PN554
MR WOOD: That is what was discussed, moving the workshop.
PN555
THE INTERPRETER: To say workshop moved, how to move.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN556
MR WOOD: Very well. You went on strike in mid-July 2004 with the rest of the employees from NHP about this enterprise agreement, Mr Liu.
PN557
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, mainly the wage.
PN558
MR WOOD: And you knew that there were a number of issues at the time you went on strike, July 2004, that were unresolved.
PN559
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN560
MR WOOD: And you remember at July 2003 the offer for the cash payment for the transfer from Richmond to Laverton was only $350. Do you remember that?
PN561
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know 650.
PN562
MR WOOD: 650 now as at November, but when you went on strike in July, you knew that the offer, the cash payment offer for the move was only $350, didn't you?
PN563
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know, I did not know.
PN564
MR WOOD: You didn't know how much the cash payment on offer as at July 2003 was?
PN565
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know. I did not know what the discussion arrive at.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN566
MR WOOD: Soon after the strike in early July 2003, I think on 3 and 4 July 2003, Mr Micallef came to NHP. Do you remember him arriving soon after the strike?
PN567
THE INTERPRETER: Specifically when did he come in, I did not know, but roughly I just know that he came in.
PN568
MR WOOD: And you know that it was after the strike occurred?
PN569
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN570
MR WOOD: And you know that he was the new boss in the factory?
PN571
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN572
MR WOOD: And in your first discussion with Mr Micallef in July or August 2003, you said to him, Frank, I want a redundancy.
PN573
THE INTERPRETER: Not - only this year, as I said before. I formally talked to him, was '04, February onwards. He seldom approach our department.
PN574
MR WOOD: Well, leave formal discussions aside, Mr Liu. I understand you are talking about a formal discussion is when you go upstairs and you go into Mr Micallef's office. That is a formal discussion, is it?
PN575
THE INTERPRETER: No, even downstairs, I would not be able to discuss, because he sat in the office. I was the lowest in the process area and below him there was another manager.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN576
MR WOOD: Mr Micallef will say that when he came to NHP, after the strike in 2003, that he wanted to know what the problems were so he walked around to everyone on the shop floor, you, other people on the ground floor, other people working on the first floor, to find out what the problems were, why people had gone on strike and why they couldn't get an agreement.
PN577
THE INTERPRETER: I do not ..... specifically it has got nothing to do with him. He has got another manager below him.
PN578
MR WOOD: That is okay. You have answered the question, Mr Liu. That is fine. Mr Micallef will say that he spoke to you dozens and dozens of times during 2003 and 2004 as he wandered around speaking to employees on the shop floor and that every time he spoke to you, you said that you wanted a redundancy.
PN579
THE INTERPRETER: Only this year after February, formally. I formally talked to him was February this year.
PN580
MR WOOD: I am not asking about the formal discussions.
PN581
THE INTERPRETER: Even say ..... only started this year, very seldom, because his area that he supervised was very wide.
PN582
MR WOOD: Do you remember a trip that you took with Mr Micallef in his car to visit Axcell in Tullamarine and you drove from Richmond to Tullamarine with Mr Micallef in Mr Micallef's car to have a discussion?
PN583
THE INTERPRETER: When was that?
PN584
MR WOOD: In October 2003.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN585
THE INTERPRETER: As to this ..... explain it.
PN586
THE COMMISSIONER: No, he doesn't have to explain it. He just has to say did he take that trip.
PN587
THE INTERPRETER: It was 26 February, ..... years ago, it was February this year, after I had my holiday, the first job. He said to me a customer want to change a spacer. He asked me to go along. It was that day. It was this year. I am really incorrect. Even the date is incorrect, so they said October, all three, after three months he was in office, went out with me was impossible.
PN588
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Wood, go ahead.
PN589
THE INTERPRETER: You can look in the record, you can look into it.
PN590
MR WOOD: Do you remember that you took the trip out from Richmond to Tullamarine and you had a discussion with the client about your work at the Tullamarine premises and you were able to explain to the client in English what the problems with the piece of work were.
PN591
THE INTERPRETER: Those are very simple. That was my job.
PN592
MR WOOD: And the client was satisfied with your explanation.
PN593
THE INTERPRETER: As to whether the client was satisfied, I don't know, but I did a perfect job.
PN594
MR WOOD: You did a perfect job and you explained to the client you had done a perfect job and you explained what the problems were with the client and the client appeared satisfied after you had explained that to him. Do you agree with that?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN595
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I do, yes.
PN596
MR WOOD: Then you drove back from Tullamarine in Mr Micallef's car with Mr Micallef, along the freeway, along Flemington Road, then you got to the big roundabout where Elizabeth Street meets Flemington Road and Royal Parade and Peel Street. There is a big flagpole in the middle of the roundabout and you pointed out the window and you said to Mr Micallef you had sold that restaurant, indicated looking out the window and you wanted to re-engage in that sort of business and that is why you wanted a redundancy.
PN597
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know what he is saying.
PN598
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry?
PN599
THE INTERPRETER: Commissioner, I asked him whether he could understand because he acknowledged what was said. He understand. He just want to know what are you trying to get at.
PN600
THE COMMISSIONER: It doesn't matter what we are trying to get at. I want him to answer the question.
PN601
THE INTERPRETER: This one has been sort of misled because I said the restaurant, my wife did have a restaurant here that was sold two years ago and then because we sold the restaurant, that is when we bought the milk bar later on and ..... said I wanted to have a package to ..... a business that did not exist. My wife is already running the business there. He has never told me - give me a package for redundancy, so how would I - he just make this up.
PN602
MR WOOD: So after you raise the issue of just having sold the restaurant - - -
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN603
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, two years ago, yes, for sale two years ago.
PN604
MR WOOD: You then said - this is what Mr Micallef will say - that you raised the need for redundancy to get back in to that sort of business with Mr Micallef.
PN605
THE INTERPRETER: I no say that, that is why ..... to emphasise that I pretty in need of the money, because my wife, she sold the business, she was not waiting for my money to - - -
PN606
MR WOOD: Well, I am not asking - Mr Liu, I am not asking for an explanation of why you did or didn't say anything. Perhaps I will break it down, because that question I asked you had two parts. I said to you that you said to Mr Micallef that you needed a redundancy or you wanted a redundancy to get into the business. Now, did you say the first part? Did you say I want or need a redundancy?
PN607
THE INTERPRETER: No, I did not discuss this. We just passed, I just pointed out to him two years ago my wife had a business here. If I did not go past there, I wouldn't even mention that.
PN608
MR WOOD: Your evidence, just to make it clear, is that you didn't ask Mr Micallef for a redundancy during this trip in his car from Tullamarine to Richmond?
PN609
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN610
MR WOOD: Because what Mr Micallef will say is that as soon as you mentioned the business that you used to own in Elizabeth Street, you then mentioned that you wanted or needed a redundancy to get back into the business. Mr Micallef then said there is no redundancies, everyone is going to Laverton and then you raised your family issues. You said you have got children and a working wife which means you can't move to Laverton. Do you remember saying that on this trip?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN611
THE INTERPRETER: The topic about going to Laverton was not even raised in that trip.
PN612
MR WOOD: And what Mr Micallef will say is that in response to you raising issues about your children and your wife, no issue is raised about the milk bar and no issue is raised about your grandmother at that stage, but just about your children and your wife, he said to you we are quite happy to vary the hours to try and accommodate your needs.
PN613
THE INTERPRETER: Specifically only in September - - -
PN614
MR WOOD: No, I don't need to hear it. You say, Mr Liu, that this conversation didn't go on. There is one other thing I have to put to you, because Mr Micallef will say it. He says that after he said we are quite happy to vary hours, you said straight away I want a redundancy, I don't want to go to Laverton. What do you say about that?
PN615
THE INTERPRETER: He only find out about my children in August and September, but before then I have never mentioned about all this problem.
PN616
MR WOOD: Yes, I am not asking you that. I am just asking you a direct question that I need to ask for the purposes of the record. Did you have that conversation with Mr Micallef that I have just asked you about, Mr Liu, in his car on the way back to Richmond from Tullamarine?
PN617
THE INTERPRETER: No, he did not talk to me about this.
PN618
THE COMMISSIONER: He has answered the question.
PN619
MR WOOD: Yes. I think you have got Mr Micallef's statement in front of you, Mr Liu.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN620
THE INTERPRETER: That is why I have detail response argue with him.
PN621
MR WOOD: I understand.
PN622
THE COMMISSIONER: Can he please wait for the question? Ask the witness to wait for the question, please.
PN623
MR WOOD: Can you turn to paragraph 39? I have asked you about this trip from Richmond to Axcell at Tullamarine and then back again and I have indicated to you it was in October 2003. Mr Micallef said it was on a day between 3 to 10 October 2003. You say this occurred in February 2004. Having directed you to Mr Micallef's evidence, are you sure that this occurred in February 2004?
PN624
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, my memory is February '04. I remember after I took my long holiday, the second job that I had, I thought someone who replace me who make mistake, but he actually had to replace a spacer.
PN625
THE COMMISSIONER: If the trip took place in February 2004, did the conversation take place?
PN626
THE INTERPRETER: Did mention two years ago my wife's restaurant was up for sale then, but I did not mention the rest.
PN627
THE COMMISSIONER: That is enough. Thank you. Yes, Mr Wood.
PN628
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, I then want to take you forward about nine months, to about July 2004, to the first one of these formal meetings as you call them.
[12.29pm]
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN629
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN630
MR WOOD: With Mr Micallef on the first floor in the River Street, building. You give some evidence about this meeting in both your statements and as I understand it, this meeting was between you and Mr Micallef and it took about 10 to 15 minutes, is that right?
PN631
THE INTERPRETER: I myself went up there. Before there was someone called Noel Missen talked to him.
PN632
MR WOOD: Did it take 10 to 15 minutes?
PN633
THE INTERPRETER: Very briefly, barbecue, later. Barbecue for example on Friday, I knew - - -
PN634
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, I don't want all the background to it. It is not important for present purposes. It is sufficient that this meeting took place around the middle to the end of July 2004 and I just want to ask you a question about it. This was the first, to use your words, formal meeting with Mr Micallef, that is a meeting off the shop floor in Mr Micallef's office, where it was just you and he talking about your particular position. Do you agree with that?
PN635
THE INTERPRETER: That was July, isn't it, you were talking about?
PN636
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN637
THE INTERPRETER: You know, I only had meeting with him twice. It was I myself - - -
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN638
MR WOOD: And this was the first of those meetings?
PN639
THE INTERPRETER: I knew how many was going to go, so I went to see - - -
PN640
MR WOOD: No more, please, Mr Liu. This meeting took place in Mr Micallef's office for about 10 to 15 minutes, is that right?
PN641
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN642
MR WOOD: And you had no problem discussing with Mr Micallef what you wanted, did you?
PN643
THE INTERPRETER: I did not know whether he could understand, but I told him that I could not, because I have young children and I have to look after my mother.
PN644
MR WOOD: I will come to that in a moment, but you were able to communicate to Mr Micallef what you wanted and you understood what Mr Micallef was saying back to you in that meeting.
PN645
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it was a very simple one.
PN646
MR WOOD: You said to him you didn't want to go to Laverton, you wanted the redundancy.
PN647
THE INTERPRETER: I suggested ..... my children and also my mother.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN648
MR WOOD: I will come to that in a moment. First of all you said to him you didn't want to go to Laverton, that you wanted a redundancy. Do you agree with that or not, Mr Liu?
PN649
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I agree.
PN650
MR WOOD: They you spoke about your children and you said that you had had some problems moving to Laverton because if your obligations towards your children. Do you remember saying that?
PN651
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, to look after children, yes.
PN652
MR WOOD: And do you remember Mr Micallef when you mentioned problems with your children said to you, well, we can vary the hours, we can vary the starting time? Do you remember him saying that to you?
PN653
THE INTERPRETER: No, no, he didn't mention that. He wouldn't even vary - he said you can catch the bus there or you drive yourself or you can look for another job.
PN654
MR WOOD: I will come to that in a moment, but what Mr Micallef will say is that he offered you the opportunity of variations in hours and variation of starting time and you refused it point blank because you weren't interested in a variation of hours or starting times because you wanted a redundancy.
PN655
THE INTERPRETER: No, at the time he did not mention the varying time to work or any other suggestion. Even now, you know, I can't accept it because I just can't have it.
PN656
THE COMMISSIONER: That is not the question and he really must listen to the question and answer the question.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN657
MR WOOD: Then what was discussed was that Mr Micallef said to you, well, if you don't want to come to Laverton, we can give you some outplacement support, support to get another job. Do you remember him saying that to you?
PN658
THE INTERPRETER: No mention about support for me to find another job. He said you can look for another job yourself because the company has no obligation to look for jobs for you.
PN659
MR WOOD: I am sorry, are you saying that Mr Micallef said that or is that your sort of spin on things, Mr Liu?
PN660
THE INTERPRETER: No, he did not say that the company would help me to look for another job.
PN661
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, just wait for a question. What Mr Micallef will say is that he said that to you and again you refused any offer of outplacement support outright and said that you wanted a redundancy.
PN662
THE INTERPRETER: The company could not help with my children and because I have been working there for 16 years, if they cannot accommodate that for my children, of course I have to request a redundancy. I still believe that I could not go to work so far away because of my circumstances.
PN663
MR WOOD: You asked for a redundancy in that meeting?
PN664
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it would be very difficult for me to go there.
PN665
MR WOOD: Very well. What you didn't do was raise any issue about your mother, did you, in that meeting?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN666
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I did mention my mother, but I did not mention about my wife's milk bar.
PN667
MR WOOD: You didn't mention about your wife's milk bar or your mother in that meeting, did you?
PN668
THE INTERPRETER: I did not mention my wife because that is her own problem, self employed.
PN669
THE COMMISSIONER: But did he mention his mother?
PN670
THE INTERPRETER: I did, but I did not mention my wife.
PN671
MR WOOD: What I have to say to you directly, Mr Liu, is that paragraph 7 of your supplementary statement, where you say that you mentioned your grandmother in this meeting in July - - -
PN672
THE COMMISSIONER: Mother.
PN673
MR WOOD: I beg your pardon, you mentioned your mother, is untrue. What do you say to that?
PN674
THE INTERPRETER: As I said, the first meeting was my children and secondly was my mother. I did not mention about my elder son, because he is a bit older, he might manage, but I did not even mention my wife.
PN675
MR WOOD: I will come to your older son and his age and what can be done about him in a moment, Mr Liu, but I want to come forward to where we started which is the meeting of 25 August 2004. That is the meeting with Mr Leane from the union, Mr Hamill, Mr Micallef and I think you had someone from the shop floor at that meeting, Mr Brendan Powell, is that right?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN676
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, what is the surname, Brendan?
PN677
MR WOOD: Powell. I am sorry, Rowell.
PN678
THE INTERPRETER: Rowell?
PN679
MR WOOD: Yes. That was a meeting that went for about half an hour or so?
PN680
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN681
MR WOOD: And this was a meeting that you had arranged through the union because you weren't satisfied with Mr Micallef's response to your July meeting, is that right?
PN682
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN683
MR WOOD: And it is true to say that in that meeting, you didn't raise your wife or your mother as issues that had to be taken into account by the company, did you?
PN684
THE INTERPRETER: That day I hardly said much. Frank said .....
PN685
MR WOOD: I am not asking you about what Mr Micallef said to you. I will come to that in a moment, what happened at the end of the meeting, but throughout this meeting, which had been arranged by you through the union to discuss your desire for redundancy, Mr Liu.
PN686
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN687
MR WOOD: You at no time in this meeting raised issues concerning your wife or your mother as issues that had to be considered or dealt with by the company, did you?
PN688
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, at that time I did not, but maybe was to arrive at agreement to get the redundancy. That time mainly was that.
PN689
MR WOOD: Mr Micallef said to you there wasn't going to be any redundancy. Do you remember him saying that?
PN690
THE INTERPRETER: At that time, I heard it was 15,000. He said $15,000, I can go and see what the company - the company might consider the $15,000.
PN691
MR WOOD: I will come to the end of the meeting, Mr Liu. At the beginning of this meeting, Mr Micallef said, look, there is not going to be any redundancies. Do you remember him saying that?
PN692
THE INTERPRETER: He said ..... the unions can be the witness, when they can be a witness.
PN693
MR WOOD: Are you saying Mr Micallef didn't say there would be no redundancies?
PN694
THE INTERPRETER: I made a mistake, I thought it was 15, I said okay and after the meeting - - -
PN695
THE COMMISSIONER: No, stop, stop. Please listen to - tell the witness to listen to the question and answer the question. He is telling us information we are not asking him about.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN696
THE INTERPRETER: He said the whole process, what happened.
PN697
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but we are not asking him about the whole process.
PN698
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN699
MR WOOD: Perhaps I will deal with it this way. I will break up little bits for you, Mr Liu. Did Mr Micallef say we have got a bus, we have altered the time of the bus leaving Richmond to suit employee requirements? Do you remember him saying that?
PN700
THE INTERPRETER: He specifically not mention that. It is more to do with the redundancy.
PN701
MR WOOD: So he didn't mention that? I just want to know whether he mentioned it or not. It is okay if you can't remember, Mr Liu.
PN702
THE INTERPRETER: At the time I was not concerned about the bus.
PN703
MR WOOD: I am not asking you about what was a concern to you. I will come to that in a moment, but do you remember and if you don't remember, that is fine? Mr Liu, I didn't ask you any question about the ETU. I am just asking you a very simple question. Do you remember Mr Micallef in this meeting speaking to you about the facility the company had offered, that is a bus from Richmond to Laverton?
PN704
THE INTERPRETER: Specifically, no.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN705
THE COMMISSIONER: So the answer is no?
PN706
THE INTERPRETER: No mention.
PN707
THE COMMISSIONER: That is all we want to know. The answer is no?
PN708
THE INTERPRETER: He was not talking about a bus.
PN709
MR WOOD: Do you remember Mr Micallef mentioning the fact that employees who move are entitled to a payment.
PN710
THE INTERPRETER: This already know long time ago.
PN711
MR WOOD: I am not asking that, Mr Liu. I am asking you what you were told in this meeting.
PN712
THE INTERPRETER: At the time, mainly it was the redundancy.
PN713
MR WOOD: Mr Liu, yes or no or you can't remember?
PN714
THE INTERPRETER: Specifically, I don't know whether it did or it did not.
PN715
MR WOOD: Very well. Do you remember Mr Micallef saying to you in this meeting that we wish to keep you as an employee?
PN716
THE INTERPRETER: He not say this.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN717
MR WOOD: Do you remember Mr Micallef saying to all those present in this meeting we have offered Mr Liu outplacement support if he wants a new job?
PN718
THE INTERPRETER: Never mentioned get a job for me.
PN719
MR WOOD: No, I am not saying a job. Do you remember him using the words outplacement support?
PN720
THE INTERPRETER: No, no support whatsoever.
PN721
MR WOOD: Do you remember Mr Micallef saying that they would consider paying an amount of $14 a day to you, Mr Liu, to accommodate your issues with your children?
PN722
THE INTERPRETER: Of course no such - - -
PN723
THE COMMISSIONER: That is answered.
PN724
MR WOOD: Yes. Now, what I put to you, not what was said, but what your attitude was to this meeting, your attitude was that you wanted the full redundancy package and you didn't want anything else.
PN725
THE INTERPRETER: The meeting was mainly to settle the figure of the redundancy. It is not aiming at whether I am going there or not.
PN726
MR WOOD: From your perspective, your attitude to this meeting and the whole reason about this meeting was to get your full redundancy entitlements as you saw it.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN727
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Of course ..... so, yes.
PN728
MR WOOD: And that is why you were so upset at any suggestion from Mr Leane from the union that you should accept less than the full amount.
PN729
THE INTERPRETER: Not upset. Later on ..... the figure is one five and I thought was 50, of course I could not accept it.
PN730
MR WOOD: You were upset about - Mr Liu, Mr Liu - - -
PN731
THE INTERPRETER: Just not upset, just to clarify - - -
PN732
MR WOOD: No, no, no, Mr Liu, I just want to get your evidence on this part straight. The offer or the suggestion of $15,000 came from Mr Leane.
PN733
THE INTERPRETER: Because I thought was 50 - - -
PN734
THE COMMISSIONER: But who said it?
PN735
THE INTERPRETER: ..... .....
PN736
MR WOOD: The union, and that is why you had a discussion with Mr Leane straight after this meeting, just you and Mr Leane, where you said to him, no, you can't suggest $15,000, I want the full $30,000, didn't you?
PN737
THE INTERPRETER: I thought it was 50,000 and it came out as 15, I said no, 15,000 and I have been there for 16 years.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN738
MR WOOD: You had a meeting with Mr Leane straight after this meeting where you said to Mr Leane I am not going to accept $15,000? That is right, isn't it?
PN739
THE INTERPRETER: At the time, because I misunderstood was 50,000. If I did not hear that it was 50,000, I wouldn't even accept it in the first place, anyway.
PN740
MR WOOD: I am about to move on to a different time frame, Commissioner, if that is a convenient time.
PN741
THE COMMISSIONER: I think it might be a convenient time for all of us, yes. We will adjourn until two pm.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.51pm]
RESUMED [2.02pm]
HAN JIAN LIU:
PN742
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Lau, please explain to the witness he is still under oath and still required to tell the truth.
PN743
MR WOOD: I thank the Commission.
PN744
I want to ask you now some questions about your discussions with employees of NHP prior to Mr Micallef joining the company. Do you understand? Do you remember Sudaven Nallathamby?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN745
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, what is the name?
PN746
MR WOOD: S-u-d-a-v-e-n, second name, N-a-l-l-a-t-h-a-m-b-y.
PN747
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I do.
PN748
MR WOOD: And do you remember that during the period 2002 and 2003, up to early 2004 - I will call him Sudaven - Sudaven had discussions with you, Mr Liu?
PN749
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I remember.
PN750
MR WOOD: And he talked to you about the move to Laverton.
PN751
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN752
MR WOOD: And you indicated to him that you didn't want to go to Laverton.
PN753
THE INTERPRETER: No, no mention of this, no discussion of this.
PN754
MR WOOD: And you asked him, that is Sudaven, for a redundancy package.
PN755
THE INTERPRETER: No, no such matter discussed.
PN756
MR WOOD: Going back a little bit further in time, do you remember you used to work, report to Mr Noel Missen?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN757
THE INTERPRETER: Noel, he was not directly supervising me. He only communicate with customers.
PN758
MR WOOD: He was higher up in the management chain than you.
PN759
THE INTERPRETER: His job, his department, I am in the workshop, different department.
PN760
MR WOOD: But he was higher up in the management chain than you.
PN761
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he works in the office.
PN762
MR WOOD: And you talked to him a number of times during the 1990s about getting the redundancy package.
PN763
THE INTERPRETER: No, no, he was not related to this matter.
PN764
MR WOOD: I am not asking whether he was related to that matter. I am asking this witness whether he had these types of discussions with Mr Missen.
PN765
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN766
MR WOOD: Mr Ryan, who I don't think you have met, Mr Liu, will come to the Commission and say that the agreement that you have identified and has been marked as exhibit W4 - I am sorry, exhibit W3 - - -
PN767
THE INTERPRETER: Where is it?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN768
MR WOOD: Which is the NHP Electrical Engineering Products Pty Limited Enterprise Agreement 2003.
PN769
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Where is W4?
PN770
MR WOOD: W3.
PN771
THE COMMISSIONER: It is not marked on his copy.
PN772
MR WOOD: You recall receiving this document around the middle of October 2003?
PN773
THE INTERPRETER: This document was later on, Ivan got it on the wall, his office, in the workshop. I saw it. I ask him. Ivan said he has got a spare copy, so he gave me this copy.
PN774
MR WOOD: Do you know when that was?
PN775
THE INTERPRETER: Should be within this year that I took it.
PN776
MR WOOD: 2004?
PN777
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, early, maybe February and March. In the past, I knew that it was placed on the workshop - whenever I have problem, I went to have a look at it.
PN778
MR WOOD: And you accept, don't you, that it was placed on the workshop noticeboard around October 2003?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN779
THE INTERPRETER: '03, October?
PN780
MR WOOD: Yes.
PN781
THE INTERPRETER: Specifically when - I don't really know - whenever there was a need, I knew it was there.
PN782
MR WOOD: Well, perhaps I can deal with it in this way. You went on strike in July 2003.
PN783
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the whole group, not just me.
PN784
MR WOOD: And you voted on this agreement in the car park outside the Richmond factory in November in 2003. Do you remember doing that?
PN785
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, what do you say?
PN786
MR WOOD: You voted on this agreement in the middle of November 2003.
PN787
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, at the time some people agreed to it, some people opposed to it. We did vote, yes.
PN788
MR WOOD: I understand, but you went out to that meeting and you voted on the agreement.
PN789
THE INTERPRETER: During the discussion, there was dispute, when we went on strike.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN790
MR WOOD: This meeting went for a long time. I don't want to know all the details about the meeting. I just want you to confirm so that we get our dates right that you voted in a meeting in the car park next to the Richmond factory on this agreement in mid-November 2003. Do you agree with that?
PN791
THE INTERPRETER: The union told the members increase of wages and other matters.
PN792
THE COMMISSIONER: But did he attend the meeting and vote? That is the question.
PN793
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I did vote, but I did not raise my hand, because I could not understand very well. All the time, because I could not understand, I did not write anything, I did not raise my hand. Just when you vote, you don't have to put anything. You just raise your hand, but I did not raise my hand and they count how many hands were raised.
PN794
MR WOOD: So you voted no to the agreement?
PN795
THE INTERPRETER: Here, going to Laverton, but did not accept my problem, so I wouldn't raise my hand.
PN796
MR WOOD: You voted no?
PN797
THE INTERPRETER: I did not raise my hand.
PN798
MR WOOD: Because you weren't happy with the agreement?
PN799
THE INTERPRETER: Not happy, but I could not understand, because nobody explained it to me.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN800
MR WOOD: A minute ago you said that it didn't settle your problem. Now you say you didn't understand it. Which one is the truth?
PN801
THE INTERPRETER: This regulation was very early, 2003. When I said to them my problem was in 2004 when they inform me that they had to move, that is when they could not solve my problem.
PN802
MR WOOD: When you went to the meeting in the middle of November 2003, was that document already on the noticeboard? Can you remember?
PN803
THE INTERPRETER: Before was not on the board.
PN804
MR WOOD: It wasn't on the noticeboard prior to November 2003? Are you sure of that, because Mr Micallef will say that it was on the noticeboard prior to November 2003?
PN805
THE INTERPRETER: At that time, all this speculation, did everyone agree to it? If it was agreed, then would be there.
PN806
MR WOOD: I am not asking that. I am asking this witness whether he knows and he might not remember. If he doesn't remember, that is fine, but prior to the meeting in the car park in November, where there was a vote on this agreement, was a copy of the agreement on the noticeboard or can't you remember?
PN807
THE INTERPRETER: As to it was there or not, I don't know, but I know the EBA got in 2002.
PN808
MR WOOD: I don't need any buts. Do you remember prior to voting in November 2003 whether you obtained a copy of this agreement or can't you remember?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN809
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN810
MR WOOD: Do you remember looking at the agreement on the noticeboard or looking at an agreement that someone else had a copy of or discussing the agreement with any one of your workmates prior to the vote on 11 November or mid-November 2003?
PN811
THE INTERPRETER: This document, whether the one before or after, there was one there. All through there was one there and then after that, there would be '03, '04, '05. Always there is a copy there, whether it is a new one or old one, I don't know.
PN812
MR WOOD: Perhaps the witness can try to answer my question.
PN813
MR CHAMPION: Perhaps if Mr Wood can repeat the question.
PN814
MR WOOD: I will deal with it this way. A number of people are going to come to the Commission to say in effect that this agreement that you have got in front of you was circulated in the workplace from 16 October for almost a month prior to a vote on 11 November, that people had copies of it, that they talked about it, that it was posted on the noticeboard, that it gave rise to much discussion and disagreement. Do you agree with that very broad proposition?
PN815
THE INTERPRETER: What do you mean, that broad proposition?
PN816
MR WOOD: Do you agree with what I have just said?
PN817
THE INTERPRETER: This agreement was the representative from the union had always been discussing with the company.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN818
MR WOOD: So you don't agree with what I have just said?
PN819
THE INTERPRETER: As to the progress, how or what, I did not know.
PN820
MR CHAMPION: Sorry to interrupt, Commissioner. I wonder if I could just have 30 seconds to have an exchange with Mr Wood which may or may not truncate matters? I just wonder if it is something about how I am putting my case. We may be at cross purposes and we may be able to move things along in everybody's interests.
PN821
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, please do.
PN822
MR CHAMPION: It is just Mr Wood's cross-examination on this issue, Commissioner, may go to more than one issue, but I just wanted to be clear to the Commission that I do not put the case on behalf of Mr Liu in such a way that I try to avoid the certified agreement. My case is not the agreement is not binding on him or anything of that kind on the basis that he didn't understand its content or he is not bound by any vote he may or may not have cast in November 2003. If you like, if I can put it colloquially, Mr Liu sues on the agreement. He accepts that he is bound by it and I say it means something to the Commission.
PN823
Mr Wood says it means something different, but in the end I have to live with clause 21 of the agreement and what it says about Laverton and relocation and I have got some things I want to say in submissions about that, but I don't try to avoid the agreement, so to the extent that this part of the cross-examination is aimed at trying to distil whether or not Mr Liu understood the agreement, I accept - I concede on this behalf that he is bound by the agreement and our case is put on that basis and we don't say that the certification was in error or anything of that kind, so if that can shorten anything, I make that concession at this point.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN824
MR WOOD: I thank my learned friend for that, because although my cross-examination went to two points, that was one of them and the other point I can pick up in other ways, so I might move on.
PN825
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, just before you do move on, Mr Wood, can I just say to the interpreter, would you tell Mr Liu to answer briefly and try not to speak when you speak, because we are recording it and they are having trouble picking up your answers in English and I am having trouble hearing them.
PN826
THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN827
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Wood.
PN828
MR WOOD: I thank the Commission.
PN829
I want to now ask you some questions about your understanding of things that were said to you. As I understand things, you do not have any difficulty with reading and writing in English. Is that right?
PN830
THE INTERPRETER: No, I have problems.
PN831
MR WOOD: As I understand things, you started as a trades assistant with NHP in 1988.
PN832
THE INTERPRETER: Assistant, is it?
PN833
MR WOOD: Trades assistant.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN834
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN835
MR WOOD: And you worked yourself up to now you are a fully accredited electrician.
PN836
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN837
MR WOOD: And to do that, you had to take on, you had to undertake additional study.
PN838
THE INTERPRETER: Because I - - -
PN839
MR WOOD: I am not after reasons. I am just asking whether he undertook this additional study.
PN840
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I myself had to read the books myself.
PN841
MR WOOD: And that study that you undertook was in English.
PN842
THE INTERPRETER: No, sometimes Chinese. Some of them, the books came down from Hong Kong with both Chinese and English.
PN843
MR WOOD: You were examined by the trades registration committee in 1994.
PN844
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN845
MR WOOD: I think you have got Mr Micallef's statement in front of you and can you turn to attachment 8?
PN846
THE INTERPRETER: Which one? Is it this one?
PN847
THE COMMISSIONER: No, it is not paragraph 8. It is attachment 8.
PN848
THE INTERPRETER: Is it right at the back?
PN849
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, it is.
PN850
MR WOOD: Now, that is a trade certificate.
PN851
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN852
MR WOOD: That you underwent an examination for, is that right?
PN853
THE INTERPRETER: This B grade is for sit for examination. This certificate was - what happened was I took my qualification as a qualified electrician and with all the documents, both Hong Kong and China, I had licence, so I took those documents to this committee and after they look through the document and they recognised my qualification.
PN854
MR WOOD: But there was an assessment of your qualifications and of you and went for between one and three hours, was there not?
[2.30pm]
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN855
THE INTERPRETER: This one, they did not assess me face to face. This one was for the test - the one on top.
PN856
MR WOOD: Yes. And that assessment was for between one and three hours?
PN857
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes. It is.
PN858
MR WOOD: And the assessment was in English?
PN859
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, all in English, yes.
PN860
MR WOOD: And you passed the assessment.
PN861
THE INTERPRETER: No. When they assess me - when they assessed me they got someone who is not an electrician but knows all the terminology about electrical parts and appliances and that is how they assessed me.
PN862
MR WOOD: And the assessment was in English.
PN863
THE INTERPRETER: He use English - he used English - if I could use English I would answer him in English but if I could not - they also had an interpreter when I could, then the interpreter will help me to translate.
PN864
MR WOOD: Coming forward a few years from 1994 to 2003 have a look at the other documents on attachment 8 - - -
PN865
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, sir, which one you - - -
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN866
MR WOOD: The rest of the documents on attachment 8. It starts with, "RMIT Training Pty Limited". Keep - go the other way - attachment 8.
PN867
THE COMMISSIONER: Go back the other way - before it.
PN868
MR WOOD: No. From where you are.
PN869
THE COMMISSIONER: Before it - yes.
PN870
MR WOOD: There we go.
PN871
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN872
MR WOOD: Keep going back.
PN873
THE INTERPRETER: RMIT - - -
PN874
MR WOOD: That's it. That's it.
PN875
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, finally they gave me a certificate.
PN876
MR WOOD: Yes. Now that certificate which was given to you on 21 October 2003 was a result - - -
PN877
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, which certificate you are talking about, sir?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN878
MR WOOD: The certificate that Liu Han Jian has been classified against the Metal Engineering Industry National Competency Standards to the level of C9.
PN879
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN880
MR WOOD: And that certificate is dated 21 October 2003.
PN881
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN882
MR WOOD: And you were assessed against a whole lot of standards, which are set out on the next page.
PN883
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN884
MR WOOD: And that assessment was in English.
PN885
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. English.
PN886
MR WOOD: And you passed all the competency standards.
PN887
THE INTERPRETER: All the competency?
PN888
MR WOOD: Standards.
PN889
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Can I - - -
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN890
MR WOOD: No, no. Mr Micallef will say that, in his experience and he has been within NHP since July 2003, that he has never been unable to understand you unless you speak too quickly. But as long as you speak slowly he is perfectly able to understand you. What do you say about that?
PN891
THE INTERPRETER: I do not agree.
PN892
MR WOOD: Can you turn to paragraph 8 of your first statement.
PN893
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN894
MR WOOD: Do you see paragraph 8 of your statement:
PN895
During my service at NHP...
PN896
Can you identify - you say 22 innovations for which you have been responsible?
PN897
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN898
MR WOOD: Is that the truth?
PN899
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, truth. You know, the physical matter is there. Up to now they are still using it.
PN900
MR WOOD: How did you communicate these innovations to other members of the NHP work force?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN901
THE INTERPRETER: I myself made it and people at look at it, "It is nice", and they promote it. Everyone sort of recognised it.
PN902
MR WOOD: And did you explain to other people what these innovations were?
PN903
THE INTERPRETER: I - I did not have to explain. After I made it up the people have a look at it. They look - it works and such a good idea.
PN904
MR WOOD: I am not asking you whether you had to explain it, I am asking you whether you did explain any one of these 22 innovations to any other member of staff?
PN905
THE INTERPRETER: They saw me so quickly - they saw me you know so quickly then they ask me, "Why so quickly?" and then I told them.
PN906
MR WOOD: And what sort of things did you tell them?
PN907
THE INTERPRETER: See for example like coba - Copper - made a copper bar you have to make a hole - according to the you know procedure normally you use a ruler and square and one by one with a hole you put the point there and that would take a long time; a waste of time and energy. I make a template to put it on top and that is very quickly.
PN908
MR WOOD: You explained that to other members of the work force?
PN909
THE INTERPRETER: Because they saw me so quickly.
PN910
MR WOOD: And did you explain that in English to them?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN911
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, just in very simple English.
PN912
MR WOOD: I will hand you a document - I will hand a copy to the Commissioner too - I asked you some questions before about Sudevan - Sudevan Nallathamby. This looks to me to be the same handwriting as yours on the document that you gave to Mr Micallef on 26 August 2004. Is this a document that you produced?
PN913
THE INTERPRETER: It is my own handwriting.
PN914
PN915
MR WOOD: I haven't asked a question.
PN916
THE INTERPRETER: But this story - - -
PN917
MR WOOD: I haven't asked a question - on this document, W4, you are resigning from your position as Team Leader, do you see that?
PN918
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN919
MR WOOD: For how long had you been a team leader?
PN920
THE INTERPRETER: When I - when I got the job there was this - there was a contract that I had to sign to be responsible specifically may be two to three years.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN921
MR WOOD: You think you were Team Leader for two to three years before 2001?
PN922
THE INTERPRETER: More or less, yes. But specifically I did sign my name on the document.
PN923
MR WOOD: How many people were in the team that you were the leader of?
PN924
THE INTERPRETER: Including myself, three. And later on those two all left so I was the only one there.
PN925
MR WOOD: Did you communicate with the people in your team in English?
PN926
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, English.
PN927
MR WOOD: Mr Willy Stewart from your supervisor from 1996/97 to 2001 - a period of four or five years, do you remember him?
PN928
THE INTERPRETER: Mr Stewart, was, sir?
PN929
MR WOOD: Was this witness's supervisor.
PN930
THE INTERPRETER: What is his surname, I missed it?
PN931
MR WOOD: Stewart - S-t-e-w-a-r-t.
PN932
THE INTERPRETER: He is a supervisor foreman.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN933
MR WOOD: Do you agree that Mr Willy Stewart was your supervisor, or foreman, for that four or five year period from 1996/97 to 2001?
PN934
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Specifically, how many years I do not know.
PN935
MR WOOD: But you remember he was your supervisor or foreman, yes?
PN936
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN937
MR WOOD: And you never had any problems understanding Mr Stewart and he never had any problems understanding you during that period, did he?
PN938
THE INTERPRETER: Sometimes if I didn't know then I have to use a third person to make it clear.
PN939
MR WOOD: But, generally, you didn't have any problems for the whole period that Mr Stewart was supervisor?
PN940
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, no, big problems basically.
PN941
MR WOOD: Currently Mr Bill Henderson is your supervisor in your supplementary statement you call him Mr Hutchinson - it is actually Mr Henderson.
PN942
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, basically there - yes, I did not know how to spell it you know.
PN943
MR WOOD: That is fine. But you never had any problems communicating with Mr Henderson or him communicating with you in the time that he has been your supervisor, have you?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN944
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, sometimes I have problems because my contact with him was very brief. Sometime he would get a third person who come and explain.
PN945
MR WOOD: I don't mean the problems whereby Mr - whenever you raised redundancy with Mr Henderson he would say, "Don't speak to me, speak to Mr Micallef", I don't mean those problems - I mean problems understanding one another.
PN946
THE INTERPRETER: Even sometime you know during work context sometimes if I could not understand I also needed someone to explain.
PN947
MR WOOD: As I understand things, for the whole period of your employment from 1998 to the present you have never asked for an interpreter to be provided to you to assist you with your work and the company has never seen a necessity to provide you with an interpreter, is that correct?
PN948
THE INTERPRETER: I try once I needed a interpreter from the company - it was a Cantonese ..... - the other one was a Portuguese. Those two were interpreters. Those - - -
PN949
MR WOOD: Well perhaps I can break it up this way. You never asked anyone from management at NHP, during the whole period that you were employed, for an interpreter to help you with your work or in communicating with management, did you?
PN950
THE INTERPRETER: Sometime you know it was very, you know, major problem at work then I have to ask someone who came from Taiwan to - Tiu Tong - that was a Chinese to interpret. And he or she would explain to me.
PN951
MR WOOD: Apart from one time, when you asked a co-worker to interpret for you, you never asked anyone from management to provide an interpreter, is that correct?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN952
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN953
MR WOOD: And the union has never asked management either on your request or otherwise for an interpreter to be present when you have meetings with management.
PN954
THE INTERPRETER: It is not that I did not need it but I thought there is no need - - -
PN955
MR WOOD: I am not asking you whether you needed it, I am asking you whether or not you asked for it?
PN956
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN957
MR WOOD: Can you turn to paragraph 56 of Mr Micallef's statement. I have asked you a question about this conversation once before but I just want to get your direct evidence on one point.
PN958
THE INTERPRETER: Where was this, sir?
PN959
MR WOOD: Paragraph 56 of Mr Micallef's statement. Do you see at paragraph 56 it says - this is a conversation which occurred at Tullamarine at Axcell Electrical and what Mr Micallef says is:
PN960
Lin spoke clearly and confidently and there was no doubt - no doubt that he understood that you understood what the client had said.
PN961
Do you agree with that statement?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN962
THE INTERPRETER: I don't really completely agree because the client spoke very simple English.
PN963
MR WOOD: So you do agree there was no doubt that you understood what the client had said - you agree with that proposition?
PN964
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, because this was very simple things.
PN965
MR WOOD: Mr Liu - I am sorry, Mr Liu, in your own evidence you say that you knew that the Richmond factory was moving to Laverton in early 2000, do you agree with that?
PN966
MR CHAMPION: Perhaps my friend would point to the spot where it is said that he said - - -
PN967
MR WOOD: At paragraph - paragraph 14 - do you agree that in 2000 you knew that the Richmond factory was going to be moved to Laverton, didn't you?
PN968
THE INTERPRETER: I knew, yes, that the store - the warehouse, definitely the warehouse was moving there.
PN969
MR WOOD: But in 2000 you say you didn't know anything about the manufacturing plant being moved there.
PN970
THE INTERPRETER: No, I did not know.
PN971
MR WOOD: You didn't know that, you say, until 2003 or 2004?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN972
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, then I heard they had to move but whether my department was going to move I did not know.
PN973
MR WOOD: I know you say that. On that point, you seem to define your department in a very narrow way.
PN974
THE INTERPRETER: Whether I went - whether I went or I did not go I work until the 22nd - a lot of people was not even working. I was still carrying on my work.
PN975
MR WOOD: You worked in the area concerned with high current chassis or modular high current chassis or universal high current chassis.
PN976
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, where you are talking about?
PN977
MR WOOD: I am asking the witness - - -
PN978
THE INTERPRETER: You know some of the term you are using I cannot catch you. What were you talking about?
PN979
THE COMMISSIONER: Ask the question again more slowly I think, Mr Wood.
PN980
MR WOOD: Yes, yes. The type of work you were performing was work which could be described as work on high current chassis's?
PN981
THE INTERPRETER: Can you simplify .....
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN982
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, wait until you hear the whole question.
PN983
MR WOOD: - - - or modular high current chassis or universal high current chassis which can be described as HCC, or MHC, or UHC.
PN984
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN985
MR WOOD: You performed that type of work didn't you?
PN986
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN987
MR WOOD: And you know that that type of work is being performed or is planned to be performed at the Laverton factory?
PN988
THE INTERPRETER: At the time I did not know this type of job had to move.
PN989
MR WOOD: I am not asking you about at the time - I am asking you right now - you know - - -
PN990
THE INTERPRETER: Of course I know now.
PN991
MR WOOD: Yes. And when do you say you first knew that this type of work HCC, or MHC, or UHC type work would be moved from Richmond to Laverton?
[2.57pm]
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN992
THE INTERPRETER: It was on the barbeque. This year. July.
PN993
MR WOOD: You say the first time you knew that this work was to be transferred was July 2004?
PN994
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he says the entire lot had to be moved. That was formerly - in the past - we are just guessing. The company did not formally tell us.
PN995
MR WOOD: I am not asking about being formally told anything. I am putting to you that you are not telling the truth that you knew that the whole workshop including the work involved in HCC, MHC and UHC was to be moved from Richmond to Laverton along with the rest of the manufacturing facility as early as 2003. In fact the middle of 2003. What do you say about that?
PN996
THE INTERPRETER: Only knew the workshop had to move. But I did not know whether the whole department had to move. That is why all the time I was very concerned about my individual department that I work.
PN997
MR WOOD: Perhaps I can just try and get this part at least straight. You accept that the whole manufacturing facility used to be at Richmond?
PN998
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN999
MR WOOD: And you accept within that manufacturing facility there was an area in which you worked called the workshop?
PN1000
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN1001
MR WOOD: And you accept within the workshop you did a type of work within the workshop which was called HCC or MHC or UHC work?
PN1002
THE INTERPRETER: I want to ask you what - I have never been in contact with HCC. What is HCC?
PN1003
MR WOOD: High Current Chassis.
PN1004
THE INTERPRETER: All the time I only had two - MHC and UHC.
PN1005
MR WOOD: For the purpose of this discussion MHC and UHC was the sort of work that you did within the workshop?
PN1006
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1007
MR WOOD: And a type of, or a product on which you worked, within the MHC and UHC part of the workshop was the Terasaki product?
PN1008
THE INTERPRETER: Terasaki was in the past one of the workshop's name.
PN1009
MR WOOD: That was a previous name of that part of the workshop in which you worked which engaged in MHC and UHC work?
PN1010
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
PN1011
MR WOOD: And - I just want to ask you a couple of questions about your family responsibilities.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN1012
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1013
MR WOOD: I would not normally ask these questions. I would just leave it for submissions but given the nature of this case I am going to give you the opportunity to make some comment upon some things that I am going to ask the Commission to find at the end of this case.
PN1014
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1015
MR WOOD: What I am going to say to the Commission at the end of the case is that you have invented or created or exaggerated problems with your family responsibilities in order to try to get a redundancy package. What do you say to that?
PN1016
THE INTERPRETER: I would say that this is the kind of doubt you cast on me or you do not trust me.
PN1017
MR WOOD: Can you explain to the Commission why it is that you have not tried to pick up any of the offers the company has made to you about varying your starting hours?
PN1018
MR CHAMPION: Could I just - sorry to interrupt. Just - there is some material in Mr Micallef's statement about varying starting hours but I am just concerned that this matter went into conference for some time.
PN1019
MR WOOD: Yes. Okay.
PN1020
MR CHAMPION: And there is some without prejudice material which in my submission is not appropriate as traversed here.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN1021
MR WOOD: Yes, I understand.
PN1022
MR CHAMPION: So the offer that was made I think should be made clear to Mr Liu and confined to non without prejudice material.
PN1023
MR WOOD: You accept, Mr Liu, do you that during the period of your discussions with Mr Micallef either directly or when the union has been present that Mr Micallef has offered to you the option of variation of hours for you at Laverton?
PN1024
THE INTERPRETER: Never mentioned it.
PN1025
MR WOOD: I see. There is no need for you to go on. Can you explain why it is, to the Commission, that you have been unable with a teenage son going into year 12 to change the way in which you provide transport for your teenage sons, teenage son and your daughter, so that either your teenage son takes public transport or your teenage son takes your daughter to school or your teenage son comes home on public transport or your teenage son picks up your daughter from school, in a way that would be - allow you to be at Richmond at quarter past seven in the morning?
PN1026
THE INTERPRETER: I am a person who place very high sort or priority to how to educate the children and train the children and responsible person. You look at my two children. I have got one 17. One 7. So that is a gap of 10 years. So when I started to have the second child I had to look at whether I would be able to look after the second child or not.
PN1027
MR WOOD: That's enough. Could you just answer this question for me and I am not going to go very much longer on this theme. Is there any reason why your teenage son cannot take your daughter to school and pick her up from school or is it something you simply have not investigated?
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN1028
THE INTERPRETER: You know that this son of mine, 17 years old, he is not mature enough to look after daughter of seven years old. He is still very immature. And if she plays up sometime he might not even be able to deal with it. For example if she wants to go to the toilet he might just leave her in the toilet and then walk off himself. I cannot sort of rely on a teenager of 17 years old to look after seven years old.
PN1029
MR WOOD: Have you investigated the possibility of your teenage son dropping your daughter at Natasha's place and picking your daughter up from Natasha's place?
PN1030
THE INTERPRETER: If this is going to happen that means my son would not even, you know, be at school in two hours time. He might still be going around and around.
PN1031
MR WOOD: You are not just making that up. You have actually investigated, looked at this and tried to see if it would work?
PN1032
THE INTERPRETER: I, myself - I, myself, when I had a car accident I did not have the car so I use the bus and then caught a tram to go to Kew. And on the way back did the same thing. And even I, myself, coming from where I was I still could not manage. How would I be able to rely on a 17 years old child to do that? That is why this one cannot be considered.
PN1033
MR WOOD: Just excuse me, Commissioner. There is nothing further in cross-examination.
PN1034
THE COMMISSIONER: How long are you going to be Mr Champion?
PN1035
MR CHAMPION: 10 minutes or so I say optimistically.
**** HAN JIAN LIU XXN MR WOOD
PN1036
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I am just wondering whether a break of 10 minutes might be appropriate or not.
PN1037
MR CHAMPION: Yes. A short break might be of assistance. It has been - for the interpreter and Mr Liu as much as anyone else.
PN1038
PN1039
MR CHAMPION: Now, Mr Liu, there are three issues I want to take you to in re-examination. The first concerns your capacity to understand English.
PN1040
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1041
MR CHAMPION: And my intention to do - is not to embarrass you in terms of your English but I would like to ask you a couple of questions directly in English, not interpreted by Ms Lau, so the Commissioner can form a direct impression in respect of your English. So if I may ask you directly in English - you were asked some questions by Mr Wood about a meeting you had with Mr Micallef and others on 25 August 2004? Do you understand the question Mr Liu?
PN1042
THE WITNESS: What do you mean? Pardon?
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1043
MR CHAMPION: You were asked some questions by Mr Wood - - -
PN1044
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1045
MR CHAMPION: - - - about a meeting you had with Mr Micallef and some others on 25 August 2004.
PN1046
THE WITNESS: 2004 - an office.
PN1047
MR CHAMPION: Yes.
PN1048
THE WITNESS: And what date?
PN1049
MR CHAMPION: 25 August.
PN1050
THE WITNESS: 23?
PN1051
MR CHAMPION: 25 August. Do you remember that Mr Wood asked you those questions?
PN1052
THE WITNESS: For this meeting?
PN1053
MR CHAMPION: Yes.
PN1054
THE WITNESS: I go to him at office.
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1055
MR CHAMPION: Yes. And there was some dispute over $15,000 versus $50,000?
PN1056
THE WITNESS: But not the day - I long listening in the 50 but I say 50 okay. 50. Ask the company and they say 50. But - yes.
PN1057
MR CHAMPION: Could you tell the Commissioner - take your time - what you recall saying at that meeting? In English if you would. No-one is trying to embarrass you about your English but I would just like you to explain in English if you can, to the Commissioner, what you remember saying to Mr Micallef at that meeting on 25 August 2004.
PN1058
THE WITNESS: And 25 and another day and I tell to another ETU and help me and then ask - because the company he don't help me and go to Laverton. My sister - my daughter and my mother - I want to help him in the, every morning, and then my mother is very old and very sick. And then I ready for to go. Too early - Laverton - go to job and then after come back and therefore I am moving to Laverton - very late come to the home and pick up my daughter. And then I don't want to - my daughter go to school, keep a long time, because the morning, very early get up and then - so Monday in the morning in two hour and leaving before school. And then afternoon and keep in the after school 4.30 and then, sometime 5.30, and then keep her two hour before there is a ..... Essendon car something like that in the freeway - don't want to go in other ..... and then keeping the freeway - keep long time to pick my daughter very hard in the after school, before school. Yes.
PN1059
MR CHAMPION: And Mr Liu - - -
PN1060
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1061
MR CHAMPION: - - - when you explained to Mr Micallef your family situation, again in that meeting on 25 August - what did he say to you?
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1062
THE WITNESS: Not a day he don't say for helping me ..... do you go to Laverton. Only ..... and then give packaging. And this is money. How much ..... and then another day and this is ETU helping me. He say 50. I say; oh 50. This is all right. He say a deal. Is 50. Okay. I say; oh 50. And then ..... no really good and listening and then after in the meeting in the safe or company and then Hamill a ..... and this a company. Me and Brent and ETU, another guy. And three people, five people. And meeting and company ..... and then after I think this is ..... this is wrong listening. And then 15. And then in the meeting I asked the ..... . I tell to Peter: Peter, what you think is it 15 or 50. He said; one five. I said; no. One five. I work here 16 year. Only one five. But company say ..... 50 okay. I tell to big boss. With 50 - after I say - I tell to another union member and ..... say you have 15. All right. Because he want ..... to be really difficult. And then I say; no. I don't like this. 15 or 16 years. One year give ..... - I don't like that one. Because you see I ..... in here. I long time in here. I working in the MSC, MHP. I 30 years old - now I am 47. I said; every person - how many, how many life working in the - okay you have two time 16 and staff all under 20 years, years old. And they should be 65. I say; no. I don't take this money because too small money. And then - and other time I, union, say we for you. You talk to company. And then ..... you don't talk to - tell the company 15,000 after, here for later, and then ..... is wrong. I asked the company too. I said; no. ..... this is fault. I wrong. I must ask - must understand. He say; okay you keep offering ..... company next Tuesday have an answer for me. Okay. I go to home - 15 no good. And then after I take a look at EBA - I take another one and then after a copy I ..... this one and next Monday meeting. Next Monday I go to a friend office because a friend very busy. He say; I have other meeting. But I say I give this letter for you - send this letter how much 14 years, 16 years ..... and then give for you. He said; ..... come in. And then I said; no. This is what - $31,000. No. And now I ask you company don't give ..... 15,000. Okay. This all right. We offer you 31 - no, never. I now ask you no more. No. Nobody help me so I must tell to solicitor help me. He say: ..... you tell the solicitor be careful. Too much money ..... you and then you lost the money and lost the job and everything. I say; no problem.
PN1063
MR CHAMPION: Can I stop you there, Mr Liu?
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1064
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN1065
MR CHAMPION: I might resume with the interpreter if I may, Commissioner.
PN1066
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1067
MR CHAMPION: Just again wait for the questions to be interpreted now, Mr Liu. Still focussing, however, on the meeting of 25 August 2004. [3.39pm]
PN1068
MR CHAMPION: You answered some - Mr Wood's suggestion to you that Mr Micallef said some things to you about outplacement and variation of hours.
PN1069
THE INTERPRETER: Did not mention this.
PN1070
MR CHAMPION: Yes. And as I understood your answer you denied that he mentioned this.
PN1071
THE INTERPRETER: You mean during that time when we no on the surface? There was two mistakes. The time was wrong. Should be February '04.
PN1072
MR CHAMPION: Mr Liu, if you would be good enough to wait for the question. Is it possible that Mr Micallef mentioned some of these things but you didn't understand him?
PN1073
THE INTERPRETER: Because the - I - because those are the matters that concern me most so I always wanted to hear from him directly to me.
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1074
MR CHAMPION: Is it possible that he mentioned these things, outplacement and variation of hours, but you didn't hear him because you were upset because the company was denying you a redundancy package you believed you were entitled to?
PN1075
THE INTERPRETER: No, all the way to Laverton we actually did not discuss about this matter.
PN1076
MR CHAMPION: I am focussing on the meeting on 25 August 2004.
PN1077
THE INTERPRETER: 25 August?
PN1078
MR CHAMPION: When you were thinking about $50,000 and Mr Leane or others were thinking about $15,000, that meeting.
PN1079
THE INTERPRETER: ..... mention about, you know, the matters that you suggest. I cannot recall exactly. It was mainly talking about the figures. But formerly talking about, you know, I could not go to that new place is 23 or 24 July, that is when we discuss it.
PN1080
MR CHAMPION: Thank you. Can I move to another topic now, Mr Liu. Mr Wood asked you some questions about different places you have lived.
PN1081
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1082
MR CHAMPION: And he took you to some documents that are now called W2. And there - you have them there, Mr Liu?
PN1083
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I have.
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1084
MR CHAMPION: And you agreed with him, as I understood it, that you have lived in different places while you have worked at NHP?
PN1085
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. When I change address I have to inform the company.
PN1086
MR CHAMPION: Yes, including at Reservoir.
PN1087
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
PN1088
MR CHAMPION: Yes. And my question is this, where were you living when your daughter was born?
PN1089
THE INTERPRETER: Was at Reservoir.
PN1090
MR CHAMPION: And when did your wife start working in her current job in the milk bar?
PN1091
THE INTERPRETER: After I sold the first takeaway shop. A few months later, within six months then I bought the new bar.
PN1092
MR CHAMPION: Are you able to put a date on that for the Commission?
PN1093
THE INTERPRETER: If I am not mistaken, should be end of '02 or beginning of '03. Roughly was February or March until - end of '02 all the way until - should be January, wouldn't pass February '03.
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1094
MR CHAMPION: Thank you. Can I ask you this question, how did the family cope when you were living in Reservoir and working at Richmond with two children? Your son would have been about eight and, as I understand it, your daughter would have been born - would have gone home to Reservoir after she was born.
PN1095
THE INTERPRETER: So I pick him up because before my son got into Melbourne High, he was in Kew High. He said, Kew High. Since year 7 to year 8 and then later on he got into Melbourne High.
PN1096
MR CHAMPION: And who looked after your daughter when she was very young and she living in Reservoir?
PN1097
THE INTERPRETER: At the back of NHP - River Street, is it? At the back there is a childcare. I left her there. Belonged to the Richmond Council, ..... there. The minute I finish work, I quickly went to pick up my baby and took her home.
PN1098
MR CHAMPION: Fair enough. Thank you. Now, last lot of questions Mr Wood asked you were about whether you had considered your son taking your daughter to school. I am just focussing your attention for the moment, Mr Liu. Now, does your son have a driver's licence?
PN1099
THE INTERPRETER: No, he is not, you know - - -
PN1100
MR CHAMPION: Yes. And you live in Box Hill?
PN1101
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
PN1102
MR CHAMPION: And your daughter goes to school - primary school in Kew? Kew East, Mr Wood corrects me.
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1103
THE INTERPRETER: I was thinking, you know - - -
PN1104
MR CHAMPION: No, wait for the question if you would, Mr Liu. Is your daughter's - is Karen's primary school in walking distance from your home?
PN1105
THE INTERPRETER: No.
PN1106
MR CHAMPION: Okay. Is there public transport from your home in Box Hill to Kew East?
PN1107
THE INTERPRETER: No, there is - yes, there are two lots of public transport. Bus and then tram.
PN1108
MR CHAMPION: Where does - where do the bus and tram run from?
PN1109
THE INTERPRETER: When you came out from Station Street, when you go to Kew around Balwyn then you can catch a tram to connect there and walk past their school.
PN1110
MR CHAMPION: Would it be possible for your son to do that public transport to take your daughter to school?
PN1111
THE INTERPRETER: If he is going to take her, it would take a long time.
PN1112
MR CHAMPION: Thank you.
PN1113
THE WITNESS: Sorry.
**** HAN JIAN LIU RXN MR CHAMPION
PN1114
MR CHAMPION: I have nothing further.
PN1115
PN1116
MR CHAMPION: That is the case for the applicant.
PN1117
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN1118
MR WOOD: I wonder if we could get from the witness the statement of Mr Micallef which we handed to the witness?
PN1119
MR CHAMPION: We will attend to that.
PN1120
MR WOOD: Thank you.
PN1121
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, if he could unpack on the bar table.
PN1122
MR WOOD: I am not sure if you want me to open at any great length? I am happy to but - - -
PN1123
THE COMMISSIONER: I am happy for you to conduct your case as you see it, Mr Wood.
PN1124
MR WOOD: Yes. Well, we have put in very full submissions which, I think, deal with all the points we wish to make. And, given the time, I might just start with calling Mr Micallef.
PN1125
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1126
PN1127
MR WOOD: Mr Micallef, can you face the Commission and give the Commission your full name?---Francis Charles Micallef.
PN1128
And what is your work address, Mr Micallef?---It is at - currently it is at 104 William Angliss Drive in Laverton.
PN1129
Are you employed by the respondent, NHP Electrical Engineering Products Proprietary Limited?---Yes, I am.
PN1130
And in what position are you so employed?---The national Manufacturing Manager.
PN1131
And have you held that position of national Manufacturing Manager since 23 July 2003?---Yes, I have.
PN1132
And in your position as national Manufacturing Manager of NHP have you had cause to make a witness statement in these proceedings?---I am not sure why a witness statement.
PN1133
Beg your pardon?---Yes, I have, yes. Sorry.
PN1134
If at any stage you don't understand what I am asking, just tell me to ask the question again. Do you have that witness statement and the 13 attachments to the witness statement in front of you, Mr Micallef?---No, I don't.
PN1135
I will just have it handed to you. Thank you, Commissioner. Can you have a look at that witness statement which runs to some 13 pages and 8 paragraphs and contains 13 attachments. Just take your time identifying it is your witness statement, does have all the attachments, Mr Micallef?---Yes, it is.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1136
Before I take you to that statement and tender it, there are some amendments that I understand you wish to make to some of the mathematical calculations within it. And to assist you to make those amendments, I am going to hand you another document first and I will hand a copy to my learned friend and a copy to the Commission. I have - my learned friend has got one apparently. I will hand one to the Commission and hand one - I will hand a copy to you, Mr Micallef?---Thank you.
PN1137
Can you identify that document which I have just handed to you and to the Commission?---Yes, I can.
PN1138
And can you tell the Commission what it shows?---It is a break up of all employees that are - with the transfer from Richmond to Laverton.
PN1139
And is it accurate as at 18 November 2004?---Yes, it was.
PN1140
Yes. Well, I will tender that document.
PN1141
PN1142
MR WOOD: Returning then to your statement, Mr Micallef, in the first line of the statement you give your address as 43-67 River Street, Richmond. That is your former business address before the move of the manufacturing facility from Richmond to Laverton, I take it?---That is correct.
PN1143
And your current address, 104 William Angliss Drive, Laverton, is the current location of the manufacturing facility?---That is correct.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1144
In paragraph 5 of your statement, you say there are approximately 45 employees in NHP manufacturing division in Victoria. Is that correct?---The numbers are made up of - I will have to round this up. From the sheet that was handed prior to, you will see that there are production, general 41. Cams, switches and meters, six. Standard starters, two. And then estimating and drafting, seven. That actually accommodate the full production amount.
PN1145
That makes - I add that to be 56?---That is correct.
PN1146
So if we change paragraph 5 - the last sentence of paragraph 5 and delete the reference to 45 and insert 56, would paragraph 5 be correct?---Correct.
PN1147
I want to move now to paragraph 18. There is a reference in the second sentence of paragraph 18 to warehousing employees and it says, "the main group of employees also relocated at this time" and that is April 2004 being - it says there 130 warehousing employees. I understand there is a change you want to make to that figure?---Yes. At the time of making this statement, I used - - -
PN1148
You don't have to explain it.?---Okay
PN1149
Just explain what the correct - - -?---The 130 is incorrect and is should read 34.
PN1150
34? So delete 130 and insert 34 and that second sentence is then correct? Is that correct?---Correct.
PN1151
And if you turn now to paragraph 25, you refer there, "in the last few weeks". That is, in the last few weeks prior to making this statement:
PN1152
...approximately 80 manufacturing and estimating employees have relocated to Laverton.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1153
What is the actual number who have relocated?---It is 56.
PN1154
So delete 80 and insert 56. And where you say that three employees were - remained until Friday, 29 October 2004, is that correct?---Yes, that is correct.
[4.00pm]
PN1155
MR WOOD: Are there any other alterations you wish to make to your statement, Mr Micallef?---No,I don't.
PN1156
And is your statement, as you have amended it in the witness box, just now, true and correct?---Yes, it is.
PN1157
And are the attachments to the statement true and correct?---Yes, they are.
PN1158
I tender the statement and the attachments.
PN1159
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, the only point I make is, just by way of example, in 36 and 37, it refers to Mr Lin and not Mr Liu.
PN1160
MR WOOD: Perhaps the witness can explain that?---Full name is Mr Liu. All the correspondence and all the - and if it is okay during this witness statement I have only ever know Mr Liu as Lin. So all my correspondence has always been, and nearly all of his fellow workers on the factory floor, refer to him as Lin.
PN1161
THE COMMISSIONER: I see.
PN1162
MR CHAMPION: That is not contentious, Commissioner.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1163
THE COMMISSIONER: No. In fact, when I look further it is that throughout the statement.
PN1164
MR WOOD: Yes, I think that is right, Commissioner. We are content to use the colloquialism or to change it to the proper name, whichever the Commission prefers.
PN1165
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, what I am marking now, the - - -
PN1166
MR WOOD: The witness statement.
PN1167
THE COMMISSIONER: I marked that W5.
PN1168
MR WOOD: I thought W5 was the - - -
PN1169
THE COMMISSIONER: Have I got lost?
PN1170
MR WOOD: Was the document of 18 November 2004 showing the number of employees who have transferred.
PN1171
THE COMMISSIONER: No, it is the other way around.
PN1172
MR WOOD: Is it, I see.
PN1173
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1174
MR CHAMPION: We are lost, Commissioner. It is the rules.
PN1175
THE COMMISSIONER: That is a good start.
PN1176
MR WOOD: I now want to ask you before you are cross-examined by my learned friend, Mr Champion, Mr Micallef, some short questions about your witness statement. Can I just ask you a question about what you did when you first started at NHP on 23 July 2004 with particular reference to communications, if any, that you had with the staff?---I will give it as brief as possible. When I first started there with the EBA negotiations had stalled. They had been into a protracted period of time. They had been going since October the previous year. I had just completed EBA negotiations in my previous company and I had heard a number of different points of view that had been bandied around as to the reasons why the EBA was not progressing so well. I found that the communication between management and the factory floor was not of a high degree. So on the second or third day - I am pretty sure it si the second day, I actually went down on to the factory floor and I spoke to every individual across the factory floor to get an understanding of the points of views of what was happening across the board. It allowed me to formulate an opinion of where and who was protracting this arrangement up. So I had gone to every employee to get an understanding. At the end of that - if you wish me to continue - I actually called the main group in the negotiations together, both on a management and on the factory floor side, and the union representative and the second in charge and a third party who was playing a fairly big role in it. And we sat down and went through all the arrangements of the - - -
PN1177
Who was the third party?---Dennis Flannery and Lloyd Black and Brendan Rowell plus in there there was management as well. So I got a good understanding of where - why these arrangements were there. In there we thrashed out all the arrangements with regards to the Laverton redundancies - - -
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1178
I will come to that in a moment. You said that on your second or third day at work you went to the factory floor and you spoke to all the employees. Do you remember whether or not you spoke to - I am not sure how you want to refer to the applicant in these proceedings. Is it convenient for you to refer to him as Lin?---I actually used a list and I ensured that I actually had gone through all employees.
PN1179
Do you recall speaking to Lin?---Yes, I do.
PN1180
And do you remember what he said to you, if anything?---At that time he was indicating he did not want to relocate to Laverton.
PN1181
And did he say to you what he wanted?---He wanted a redundancy package.
PN1182
Since that time, July 2003 until now, or at least until last month when everyone moved from Richmond to Laverton, or almost everyone moved, in that 15 months or so, what do you say about your level of involvement with the employees on the shop floor, if any?---It is nearly every day, unless when I am either interstate - because I have a number of branches that I organise for - every day at some stage or another I go on to the factory floor and either say hello to the employees - sometimes it might be on 50 per cent, sometimes it might be 80. But usually in most cases I would walk the entirety of the factory floor and at least say hello wherever I possibly could and wherever somebody engaged me on a personal basis, I would talk to. There was very much - even on the second day when I spoke to everybody, they always knew that there was an open door policy in my office and Lin did use that open door policy from time to time,.
PN1183
Sorry, did or did not?---Did as well as approaching me on the factory floor on numbers of occasions.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1184
How many times in that 25 months or so between you starting in July 2003 and October 2004 did Lin approach you on the factory floor?---On the factory floor, it would be dozens of times with the same question that he wanted redundancy. It was usually his opening statement to me was to talk about the redundancy and how he could get a redundancy. It was very much an open - continual - nearly every time I spoke to him on the factory floor. Not every time but the majority.
PN1185
What did you say to him when he asked you, in your words, nearly every time you spoke to him - - -?---As part of the original brief that I had from the EBA from the company, that there were no redundancies to be offered in the relocation to Laverton and that was the response that he had very much from day one from me. There was no redundancies.
PN1186
THE COMMISSIONER: What was his words to you - his words?---In some - most cases it was, you give me redundancy, I want redundancy, I am not going to Laverton.
PN1187
MR WOOD: There has been a degree of evidence about events which occurred on the 25th and 26 August 2004 which I think on 25 August events occurred in an office near your office?---Correct.
PN1188
And on 26 August in your office?---Yes.
PN1189
Around that time did you have any conversations with Mr Leane from the ETU about Lin?---During those meetings or after?
PN1190
After - separately, just you and - - -?---Separately after. Okay, after the 26th after Lin had approached me in my office, the day after, on the morning, which I have expressed here was quite concerning because it was very much a - - -
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1191
Well, come to - just try and answer the questions, Mr Micallef?---When I spoke to - I rang the union representative immediately after and I also spoke to the onsite union rep, Mr Brendan Rowell, and advised them that I would not accept this sort of behaviour direct at me. He was very confrontationist and I asked if under the emotive state of Lin on the 26th - that employees advised Lin that if he approaches me again in this manner that I would take disciplinary action and I expressed it at both of the union - the onsite and Mr Leane they were to advise him that if he approached me in such a manner again - I overlooked it this time - that counselling would take place. That I would not take kindly to finger pointing and in the manner that I was spoken to and I believe they approached him.
PN1192
Did Mr Leane say anything to you about whether or not the ETU were supporting Lin?---Mr Leane on that phone conversation said that they wouldn't be pursuing any further. Now, I told him that in response to the meeting on the 26th that I would write him a letter refusing the request for the $15,000 redundancy as we had stated in the day before in the meeting. And that just to confirm that he had approached us and it was a confirmation of our meeting which is in my documents here that I have tabled, that that letter has gone to Mr Leane refusing that amount of redundancy.
PN1193
And did you have any further correspondence from Mr Leane or any other member of the ETU, that is, official of the ETU on Mr Lin's behalf after that time?---I asked Mr Leane whether he was supportive of the action and Mr Leane stood by the EBA negotiations that the company had done. And to my knowledge his conversation was they would not be supporting Mr Leane in the pursuit.
PN1194
Sorry, not be supporting who?---Sorry, Lin, in his pursuit for the redundancy. They would stand by the EBA.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1195
What was it on 26 August that caused you to ring the union and complain about Lin's behaviour?---It was very much - even though there was a separation on the desk between us, it was a very upfront demand that Lin had made mention that he did not agree with the $15,000 that had been put forward for the union to obtain a settlement. That was not put forward by the company, the 15,000. I presumed the union had put it forward on Lin's account since he was at the meeting. And Lin came in with a piece of paper which has been - - -
PN1196
It is exhibit 6 to your statement - - -?---Okay.
PN1197
- - - perhaps you can turn to that?---Which he brought in to my - this one here.
PN1198
Yes?---He brought into my room at 8 am. He was right in what he said, he didn't throw it at me but he placed it on the table in a manner - and said that I don't wish the union - what the union said yesterday, he doesn't want to abide by and that is the amount of money he wants. He became very emotive and he restated again, as he has done many, many times that he wanted a redundancy and that was the amount of money that he wanted on the redundancy. After I again reconfirmed that there was no redundancies available through the company and we would only offer, as we had done on the previous day, of trying to organise other family type issues. He became very agitated, he became very loud and very much the finger was in the face and I was quite glad that there was as table between the two. Being a senior manager I know the best way to diffuse a situation like this. There was other people in an immediate office outside which was our products group who had been relocated over there temporarily. Heads were raised from outside of our room with a closed door as to this arrangement that was going on. So I advised him that he needed to cool off and I advised him to leave the office immediately. Failure to do so - I would take action.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1199
Did you have any problem understanding what Lin was wanting and did Lin have any problem understanding what you were wanting, that is, for him to - when you said so, to leave the office?---Initially when he first came in I fully understood everything he was stating to me. With Lin's language, my interpretation is that as he becomes very emotive and very emotional over things, he becomes very quick in his speech. And at the end of it it became a little bit - less understanding but the finger pointing was no misunderstanding to me. This had to be resolved and it had to be diffused rather than it getting into a physical arrangement. So at the later part of it - well, he certainly understood my point of view, in going back, and I think that is the reason he reacted in the way it was. I was not going to relent other than what he had been stated from the first day I met Lin, was that there are no redundancies.
PN1200
I will hand you a diary note of - I will give a copy to the Commission - of the events which occurred the previous day, that is, 25 August. Is that an extract from you diary of your notes of the meeting of 25 August 2004?---That is correct.
PN1201
PN1202
MR WOOD: Having that document in front of you with - identifying who was present at the meeting, can you tell the Commission how long the meeting went and what was discussed?---It probably - the period of time probably went for about half an hour. It could have been fractionally longer than that. I can't remember the exact - the two statements at the top here where it says, "Jason" that is annual leave. He was actually away on that day. And I picked up somebody from the airport which was an estimator who had come in from Adelaide that I was doing training with. So they were the first two entries, they have got nothing to be relevant to here. The people in the meeting were Shaun Leane, Stuart Hamill, Brendan Rowell and myself. And what we discussed in that meeting was the bus. And we confirmed with the union representatives that we had altered the bus time to employees' request because - - -
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1203
You had altered it from 7.15 to 7.20?---No, from 7 o'clock to 7.20.
PN1204
I beg your pardon?---Okay. It had been running and had been agreed to at 7 o'clock but the union asked us if we could move it to 7.20 and we moved that time back. It was more of a - as we were getting the bus up and going we were flexing the time to try to understand what were the actual needs. So we had gone back to as far as we could so that - as part of the agreement it actually states that it actually has got to be there on start time. So we moved it back after trials, after it running for a number of weeks to fine it right down to the least amount of inconvenience we could.
PN1205
What you just said you were explaining to the union officials, you mean - - -?---The whole group.
PN1206
The whole group?---Yes.
PN1207
Including Lin?---Correct, he was present at that meeting.
PN1208
I see, but he was present though his name doesn't appear as one of the people present?---He was definitely there at that meeting.
PN1209
THE COMMISSIONER: Why isn't his name there?---I don't know.
PN1210
Can I ask another question. Why are the references in your diary of that day, the first one at 8 o'clock and then the next three at 8.30 to 9.30 and then 9.30 to 1.30 are written in three different pens. Why is that?---The Jason annual leave one; the later ones from 9.30 right through was the actual meeting. The two previous ones were written on previous days so that if somebody puts in annual leave, say, for instance, Jason, I would write it down so I would know who was away on the day, the same as the - - -
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1211
And the pickup was written in anticipation of a pickup?---Yes, I had to pick somebody up.
PN1212
Yes, I see?---So I had written it in on a different day.
PN1213
Thank you for that?---Whereas the entries are all in the one.
PN1214
Sorry, Mr Wood.
PN1215
MR WOOD: That is fine, Commissioner?---I really don't know why I assure you, I am sure Lin would confirm that he was at that meeting.
PN1216
MR WOOD: There were - what else did you discuss after you talked about the bus?---We talked about payments of the 325 - the 650 which was in two parts for the 325 movement to Laverton. There was no redundancy and was re-confirmed, there was no redundancy as we were in there talking about that particular arrangement - which we wished to keep our employees was re-emphasised again, as we have always done right through. It is vital that we keep our skill base in this relocation to Laverton and that is really one of the main crux of why the redundancies are not being offered is that the skill base is critical to our movement over to Laverton. I wrote a cryptic one after - and again these are just my notes. And I made a comment, are you saying we should dismiss. In other words, should we dismiss Lin and that is certainly not what we are on about. We are there to retain all of our employees. We are - offered support on new employees and I was a little bit amused, what is the intent of the union, that is what I put in the question at the end of it. I thought the union was there to maintain people not to have people moved away from employment. So our endeavours were to keep people and that is why I wrote the questions marks there.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1217
Can you recall what the union said in response to these various issues that you raised? By the union I mean, Mr Leane and Mr Rowell?---The crux of the matter while he was there to - the redundancy had been asked by Lin and the union had tried to support him to some degree and come in and do a negotiation with us to try to see if they could resolve Lin's needs. And they asked - they said the amount is around about $30,000, would we consider $15,000 on a one-off payment and nothing would be said. And we made it quite clear that, no, that is not on and we would not consider that. We then spoke about family issues because we were then looking to try and see how we could have Lin come over to Laverton and we spoke about family life. And what we - what Lin expressed is if that he - and the union delegates - if he had to do morning and afternoon care there was a sum - and this amount was raised by Lin - was about $14 per day for support for - I wasn't sure a ..... session or the whole day. And we stated to him that we would reimburse. We wouldn't do it on a variation on wage on a daily basis but if it was - we would reimburse payments by the particular school. So if the school had - he had paid $13 in that particular month by the school we would reimburse those amounts to try and assist the children change of thing. At that point there was only one issue with regards to family life and they were the children. I definitely can concur that there was no issue with the mother or the grandmother and that was the only item that was raised with regards to the job.
[4.21pm]
PN1218
And how did this meeting end - how did this meeting on 25 August end?---Fairly congenially. We left and there was no doubt in our mind that there was no redundancy. There didn't seem to be any efforts from the other side to take up any of the offers of the family variations of trying to accommodate change so we left on separate parties that no redundancy was still required by Lin; and we weren't offering a redundancy.
PN1219
What did you say to the offer of $15,000 instead of $30,000, did you say, "We will get back to you", or did you - how was that left?---We said that we would respond in writing but there was certainly - as I have written there, there was no redundancy.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1220
Did you, after you had this discussion on 25 August, see Lin and any member of the union have a discussion straight after that meeting?---To the content I don't have a lot of privy to and nor was it my thought - my intention to, or whatever, but I went in to get a cup of coffee which is on the same floor again as my office and the meeting room where it had just taken place and I had gone in to get a cup of coffee after the meeting and Lin and Shaun, Leane, and Brendan had retired to the canteen or the coffee room. When I went into there I briefly got my cup of coffee and apologised at not knowing that they were in there and said that, you know, "Just wait a minute and I will get out of here", because there was some raised voices - but as to the content I am not privy to it.
PN1221
The next thing that occurred, as far as you know, was that at 8 am the next morning Lin came in to your office with attachment 6 to your statement and said, "I want the $31,000". Can you turn to attachment 7 of your statement, Mr Micallef, and just look at that letter dated 3 September 2004 for a moment?---Yes.
PN1222
You gave some evidence that you sent a letter rejecting the $15,000 offer from the union. Is that the letter you are referring to?---That is the letter.
PN1223
You have just given some evidence that you have had a number of discussions on the shop floor with Mr - with Lin, during the period of your employment from July 2003 onwards, what can you tell the Commission about your understanding of Lin's ability to understand you, or others, based on what you have seen and observed?---In regards to this matter, in the majority of arrangements of Lin he has usually come and approached me fairly not abruptly, but quite straight - straight forthright in that, okay, usually in the majority of times he came and spoke to him it was about, you know, the redundancy. There has been a lot of times that we have spoken about the jobs that he is currently carrying out. You know, if there was job problems down on the factory floor that he may have wanted interpreting which either me or Noel Missen had worked with him on. Usually it was about a delivery of a particular product that had to be out on a particular day. Having 12 years prior to this company on a factory floor, with regards to being a factory manager and the EBAs and the likes of it, I believe I communicate very well, even with people who don't have the best grasp of English.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1224
I am not really concerned about other people, Mr Micallef?---But I found my communications with Lin were fairly well - I didn't have a lot of trouble understanding Lin.
PN1225
Yes. Commissioner, I am going to get on to another topic, I just wonder whether - - -
PN1226
THE COMMISSIONER: How long is your next topic going to last?
PN1227
MR WOOD: It will take a little while I imagine, Commissioner.
PN1228
MR CHAMPION: I have no difficulties. It is probably sensible that I don't start cross-examining - - -
PN1229
THE COMMISSIONER: Indeed.
PN1230
MR CHAMPION: - - - this afternoon.
PN1231
THE COMMISSIONER: No. I mean if you are only going to go another 15 minutes, Mr Wood, we could finish the evidence in chief, that is all, but if it is - - -
PN1232
MR WOOD: I am going to be longer. I am probably going to be - - -
PN1233
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Then I think it is an appropriate time - - -
PN1234
MR WOOD: Yes.
**** FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF XN MR WOOD
PN1235
THE COMMISSIONER: - - - and we will reconvene in the morning. We will adjourn. Thank you.
ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 23 NOVEMBER 2004 [4.28pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
EXHIBIT #C1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS PN85
EXHIBIT #C2 2004 RACV VEHICLE OPERATING COSTS PN88
EXHIBIT #C3 OUT OF SCHOOL HOURS PROGRAM KEW EAST PRIMARY SCHOOL PN89
HAN JIAN LIU, SWORN PN90
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CHAMPION PN90
EXHIBIT #C4 STATEMENT OF MR LIU PN107
EXHIBIT #C5 SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT OF MR LIU, DATED 06/10/2004 PN138
EXHIBIT #C6 PAY SIP OF MR LIU, DATED 27/10/2004 PN147
EXHIBIT #C7 MELWAY'S REFERENCE PN283
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOOD PN296
EXHIBIT #W1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS PN335
EXHIBIT #W2 DOCUMENTS RELATING TO MR LIU PN335
EXHIBIT #W3 ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT PN446
EXHIBIT #W4 DOCUMENT PN915
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CHAMPION PN1039
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1116
FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF, SWORN PN1127
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WOOD PN1127
EXHIBIT #W5 WITNESS STATEMENT OF FRANCIS CHARLES MICALLEF PN1142
EXHIBIT #W6 DOCUMENT PN1174
EXHIBIT #W7 EXTRACT OF DIARY NOTES OF MEETING OF 25/08/2004 PN1202
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