C2004/5199, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 4815 (9 December 2004)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 9268
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER CRIBB

C2004/5199

NURSES (ANF - VICTORIAN LOCAL
GOVERNMENT) AWARD 2002

Application under section 113 of the Act
by the Australian Nursing Federation to
vary re classifications, allowances and
hours of work

MELBOURNE

10.42 AM, TUESDAY, 30 NOVEMBER 2004

Continued from 15.9.04

PN16

THE COMMISSIONER: I do apologise again to the parties for the late start in this matter. Mr Megennis.

PN17

MR MEGENNIS: Thanks, Commissioner. I am not sure whether there is any changes in appearances in relation to this matter.

PN18

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry. Mr Wilson.

PN19

MR WILSON: I do have an additional appearance. Appearing with me is MR R. WALL also from VECCI.

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Wilson. Thank you, Mr Megennis.

PN21

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, this is an application made pursuant to section 113 of the Workplace Relations Act 1996 to vary the Nurses ANF Victorian Local Government Award 2002. The application seeks to vary the award as illustrated by the ANFs draft variation. That was part of the union's original application. I will shortly refer the Commission to each of those proposed new clauses, but what I would like to do at this point in time, Commissioner, is do a bit of housekeeping if I can to perhaps assist the parties in relation to the processing of this particular application.

PN22

Two weeks ago I submitted a set of documents in relation to the union's application. Contained in that set of documents, there were a number of authorities that the ANF intended to rely upon. I would like perhaps just to assist the parties, just go through those, just to ensure that they are actually in some form of order that should flow from my submissions, Commissioner. Also, given that we have got two witnesses present here today, I am not sure at what time I may be calling them. I would suspect that it is probably after the lunch adjournment. I am not also sure whether there is any protocols in relation to whether we should have the doors closed or not or whether they can be present during these submissions otherwise.

PN23

MR WILSON: I don't have any difficulties with them staying, Commissioner.

PN24

MR MEGENNIS: Okay. It is just that they are outside.

PN25

THE COMMISSIONER: That is fine. Is the question whether they are inside or outside?

PN26

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN27

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wilson, do you have a view?

PN28

MR WILSON: I don't have a view. I don't mind whether they are inside or outside. I don't think it materially affects what will be said, Commissioner.

PN29

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Wilson. I think it is a question of which seats are the most comfy and where they would like to be, probably. Mr Megennis.

PN30

MR MEGENNIS: Could I just perhaps seek an off the record discussion with them?

PN31

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly.

PN32

MR MEGENNIS: If I could just go back to the authorities, I will just take you through each one of those to make sure they are in the same order. There are also a couple of supplementary authorities that I have also brought along today and I will draw your attention to those as we move through. The first document is titled Clothing Trades Award Vehicle Industry, Repair, Services, Retail Award, etcetera.

PN33

THE COMMISSIONER: That is behind tab 3 at the moment, I think. Is that correct, Mr Megennis?

PN34

MR MEGENNIS: Yes. The second one is extract from the AILRs. The third one is a copy of the Industrial Relations Commission of Victoria in the full session cases 156 and 190 of '86.

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, tell me that again, please.

PN36

MR MEGENNIS: It has got a stamp on it, library ANF Vic branch.

PN37

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.

PN38

MR MEGENNIS: The fourth one is an extract from the Full Bench of the Industrial Relations Commission of Victoria titled Registered Nurses Salaries and Careers Structure Reference number 6.

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN40

MR MEGENNIS: The fifth one is an extract of the Mitchell Shire Council Enterprise Agreement. Attached to that is a yellow set of wage rates which are actually public sector rates of pay.

PN41

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN42

MR MEGENNIS: I would like to perhaps provide a supplementary copy of those rates, because that particular sheet was the April rates and it has since moved to the October adjustment.

PN43

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to leave the April ones in there?

PN44

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN45

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN46

MR MEGENNIS: The next one is titled - it is an extract of the Nurses Victorian Health Services Award 1992. It is an extract from the Nurses Award 2000. The Commissioner was Commissioner Hingley.

PN47

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN48

MR MEGENNIS: The next one is an extract from the Banyule Enterprise Agreement, followed by an extract from Commissioner Blair's Public Sector Enterprise Agreement decision.

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: We have got - I think Mr Wilson has, too, he has got the Registered Nurses Salaries and Careers Structure Reference number 6, 18 June '87 and then we have got Commissioner Blair, 31 August 2000. Do you want us to swap them around?

PN50

MR MEGENNIS: Can you just refer that one back to me again? What one is it?

PN51

THE COMMISSIONER: Which one?

PN52

MR MEGENNIS: The other Commission one.

PN53

THE COMMISSIONER: Registered Nurses Salaries and Careers Structure Reference. Is that the one you have got?

PN54

MR MEGENNIS: It might be a replication of the one that I have actually referred to previously.

PN55

THE COMMISSIONER: That is what I have got?

PN56

MR MEGENNIS: Is that the one with Marshall, Eggington and Williams?

PN57

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, 18 June '87.

PN58

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, it might be just that I am going to rely upon that again at a second point.

PN59

THE COMMISSIONER: It is, yes. Do you want me to take that out?

PN60

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, it might be useful at this stage.

PN61

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wilson, what have you got?

PN62

MR WILSON: I have that one, Commissioner, but I also have one there that is a memo headed Department of Human Services to Robert Burrows from Simon Chant and it talks about hospital circular on the nurses. I am not sure if Mr Megennis is referring to that. That is in between the documents he has just alluded to.

PN63

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, if you have got that one yourself, Commissioner, that should have been attached to the exhibit with the front page of Mitchell Shire Council Enterprise Agreement and public sector rates. It is really just to support the rates of pay document for the public sector.

PN64

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, what should it be behind? Yes, got it.

PN65

MR MEGENNIS: Is it part of your original Mitchell Shire Council exhibit?

PN66

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.

PN67

MR MEGENNIS: The next one, I hope - - -

PN68

THE COMMISSIONER: So you want the parties to take out the repeat of the Marshall, Eggington, Williams decision?

PN69

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, Commissioner.

PN70

THE COMMISSIONER: And so therefore it is Commissioner Blair's decision, 31 August 2000.

PN71

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, followed by an extract of the Industrial Reports, September 2004.

PN72

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN73

MR MEGENNIS: Followed by a decision of the New South Wales Industrial Relations Commission.

PN74

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN75

MR MEGENNIS: And then once again another extract from the Industrial Reports 2003.

PN76

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN77

MR MEGENNIS: The next one being Mooroobool Shire Council Enterprise Agreement.

PN78

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN79

MR MEGENNIS: Human Services Nurses Recruitment and Retention, that might be a bit out of whack, I think.

PN80

THE COMMISSIONER: I have got that next. I don't know about Mr Wilson.

PN81

MR WILSON: No, I have got Wyndham City Council.

PN82

MR MEGENNIS: So that was the Human Services, followed by a copy of the Maternal and Child Health Service Nursing Workforce Assessment.

PN83

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN84

MR MEGENNIS: An extract from a report titled Surviving the Contract State.

PN85

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN86

MR MEGENNIS: The next one being a couple of extract from the media.

PN87

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN88

MR MEGENNIS: The next one is a table of rates. If I can just draw your attention to the bottom reference to Mitchell. If you could amend the 1032.22 to 1073.50.

PN89

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN90

MR WILSON: Could I just ask a question there, too, not wishing to interrupt, but the second last council, is that Yarra?

PN91

MR MEGENNIS: Moira.

PN92

THE COMMISSIONER: I couldn't work it out either.

PN93

MR MEGENNIS: Position description, Shire of Yarra Ranges. Moonee Valley Council Enterprise Agreement and I would like to also provide you with some supplementary - - -

PN94

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, I have got other documents. I think Mr Wilson has, too.

PN95

MR MEGENNIS: I think mine are all attached to the one document that is titled Yarra Ranges.

PN96

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I have got another decision by Commissioner Hingley. Is this a repeat of the previous one?

PN97

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, it is, so you can remove that as well. Actually, no, they are actually extracts of various provisions of the award that I will be referring to later.

PN98

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, because I have got two. I have got 11 September 2000 and 30 June '98.

PN99

MR MEGENNIS: Sorry, say that again, Commissioner.

PN100

THE COMMISSIONER: I have got Nurses Victorian Health Services Award 1992, Commissioner Hingley, 11 September 2000 and I have got Health and Allied Services Private Sector Victoria Award, 30 June 1998.

PN101

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, they are some other supplementary - not new from today, but they were part of the submissions that I will be referring to later on in relation to the hours provisions of the draft variation.

PN102

THE COMMISSIONER: Because Mr Wilson doesn't have either. Have you got those, Mr Wilson?

PN103

MR WILSON: Yes, I have.

PN104

THE COMMISSIONER: And then there is the Public Hospital Nurses State Award.

PN105

MR WILSON: Yes.

PN106

THE COMMISSIONER: And then there is the Melbourne City Council Award 2001.

PN107

MR MEGENNIS: Could I ask the parties to remove that from the file? I don't think I will be relying upon that.

PN108

THE COMMISSIONER: The Melbourne City Council one?

PN109

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN110

THE COMMISSIONER: And then I have got the Medical Scientists, Pharmacists and Psychologists Public Sector Award.

PN111

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN112

THE COMMISSIONER: And then I have got the Victorian Local Authorities Award.

PN113

MR MEGENNIS: Sorry, I have made an error, Commissioner. If I can just refer back to the Melbourne City Council Award. That one can stay in. It is actually the Local Authorities Award that I wanted to - - -

PN114

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, so we are going to put back in in front of Medical Scientists, Pharmacists Award, put back in Melbourne City Council and we will take out the one after Medical Scientists which is the Victorian Local Authorities Award.

PN115

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN116

THE COMMISSIONER: That is all I have in my folder. Do you have any more in yours, Mr Wilson?

PN117

MR WILSON: No. That completes mine, Commissioner.

PN118

MR MEGENNIS: The Melbourne City Council one went before or after the Medical Scientists Award?

PN119

THE COMMISSIONER: Before. Well, that is where it was, so that is where I put it back, but I can put it wherever you like, Mr Megennis.

PN120

MR MEGENNIS: Now, if I may, with the Commission's approval and my colleagues here this morning request to have some supplementary authorities inserted in the folder. That goes before the Commissioner Hingley document near the rear.

PN121

THE COMMISSIONER: The 1998 one.

PN122

MR MEGENNIS: Following the Moonee Valley City Council Enterprise Agreement extracts.

PN123

THE COMMISSIONER: So following that, okay.

PN124

MR MEGENNIS: The two extracts from the AILRs dated 1982 and 1983. I acknowledge that the Victorian Employers Chamber of Commerce and Industry has not yet had an opportunity to look at those supplementary decisions, Commissioner. With the Commission's approval, the ANF would like to have those added to the list of exhibits.

PN125

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wilson.

PN126

MR WILSON: I have no objection, Commissioner, save to say, of course, I haven't read them and if necessary would like to be able to do that, but at this stage, no objection.

PN127

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wilson, your rights are reserved with respect to having some time to peruse the documents.

PN128

MR WILSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN129

THE COMMISSIONER: Any others, Mr Megennis?

PN130

MR MEGENNIS: I think that should be all that is required in relation to the exhibits, as far as the order of the exhibits, at least. If I can take you back to the original draft variation.

PN131

THE COMMISSIONER: The one that was lodged in the Commission by the ANF.

PN132

MR MEGENNIS: Yes. When the document was prepared, the rates of pay that are described on page 3, section 5, maternal and child health nurse co-ordinator and team leader, they were calculated at that time on the basis of the safety net adjustments that had occurred and may well have been the rates that had occurred previously to the May 2004 safety net review, so I would be wanting to advise the Commission that the calculation in relation to that rate of pay, or those rates of pay, needs to be adjusted in line with the safety net adjustments that were relevant to the 2004 safety net review, subject to the Commission approving this application to vary the award.

PN133

MR WILSON: Can I just understand that what is being asked is that these rates be now adjusted to take into account this year's safety net review?

PN134

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, because they were always calculated on the - - -

PN135

MR WILSON: I have no objection.

PN136

MR MEGENNIS: If I can just draw the Commission's attention to what the current rates of pay are for the maternal and child health nurse year 1 and 2, according to the most recent safety net review in May 2004, the maternal and child health nurse year 1 rate of pay is $932.90 and the second year rate is $954.20. Now, the rates of pay that are contained in the ANFs application are based on first of all in relation to the maternal and child health nurse co-ordinator 10 per cent above the year 2 rate and five per cent above the year 2 rate for the team leader classification. I hope that assists the Commission in terms of those rates.

PN137

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. I was wondering where they came from.

PN138

MR MEGENNIS: Does the Commission require any evidence of those rates at all?

PN139

MR WILSON: No, Commissioner.

PN140

MR MEGENNIS: If I can perhaps return to the more formal approach to these submissions, Commissioner. The draft clauses are designed to incorporate a number of changes that reflect current work practices which are essentially derived from health industry standards that are either common or emerging standards to all nurses employed in the public and the private sector throughout Victoria and overall reflect industry standards that nurses employed in other states throughout Australia currently enjoy.

PN141

In terms of the ANFs application, the ANF contends that there are significant increases to the work value of maternal and child health nurses which we contend that are similar to some of the standards that have been set in relation to other health industry standards throughout Victoria and obviously throughout the country.

PN142

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Megennis, can I just interrupt you there? I notice - firstly I need to say to all of the parties that I have read all of the documentation that has been submitted to the Commission and thank you both for having done that. What wasn't clear to me and you have just raised it now is whether or how important the work value - let me start again - whether this essentially is a work value case or whether it is on other principles.

PN143

MR MEGENNIS: It is essentially based around the work value principles that are set by the National Wage Case in May 2004. It is also linked to issues associated with wage parity of nurses throughout the State and also in relation to other industry standards that are currently part of other health professionals either in Victoria or interstate.

PN144

THE COMMISSIONER: And that parity for maternal and child health nurses is with the public and private standards? Is that what you are seeking parity with?

PN145

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, essentially that is correct, but also we would seek to have the Commission recognise that maternal and child health nurses not only work in local government, but they also work in the public sector and also in the private sector and so in terms of wage parity issues, there are some important submissions that we need to be able to make, to try to draw the Commission's attention to some of those fundamental principles that are linked to the work value component that we would be relying on.

PN146

THE COMMISSIONER: But the application before the Commission is to vary the local government award, I think, isn't it, the ANF Victorian Local Government Award?

PN147

MR MEGENNIS: That is correct.

PN148

THE COMMISSIONER: Could I ask a question? What is the reason for the union pursuing an award variation rather than seeking to have reflected industry standards and the increase in work value that you say there is through enterprise bargaining?

[11.08am]

PN149

MR MEGENNIS: Commissioner, the ANF has over the last four years and more recently in my time as an official of the ANF in the last two years been seeking to have local governments recognise that there have been increases in relation to the work value of maternal and child health nurses by way of negotiating conditions in enterprise agreements. The ANF has not been successful in relation to drawing the support from local government employers overall in relation to addressing those particular developments in terms of the increased work value of maternal and child health nurses.

PN150

It is true that the ANF has for some period of time been relying upon a standard log of claims that incorporates some of the aspects that have been incorporated into the draft variation. Essentially they relate to the issues associated with higher qualifications payments and the maternal and child health co-ordinators as well as references to the hours provisions of the award. The submissions that we will be making in relation to those issues, Commissioner, hopefully will illustrate to the Commission that on account of there being significant difficulties associated with negotiating those EBAs, that it is important to consider the merit of having those conditions varied in the award.

PN151

I might also add that the draft application provisions concerning higher qualifications payments are matters that have been a bone of contention, you might say, between the parties that have been negotiating the enterprise agreements over a number of years and I have got to say that each time that we put that claim on the table, the local government employers who we are negotiating with at those times say this is a matter for the ANF to seek an application to vary the award and that is one of the central reasons why we are here today, because the local government employers don't want to have higher qualifications recognised in the enterprise agreements.

PN152

And we have repeatedly tried to have these matters considered by the employers during these negotiations, or during these enterprise agreement negotiations and largely ignored because of the employer's attitude towards the ANF in terms of saying to the ANF that the matter is really an award related issue and that the ANF should make its application to vary the award, so that is primarily the main reason in relation to why higher qualifications appears in the union's application.

PN153

THE COMMISSIONER: Looking at the draft order, Mr Megennis, a number of the clauses go to what I think would be broadly encapsulated by your statement about reflecting the industry standards.

PN154

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN155

THE COMMISSIONER: In terms of the work value, except for the new classifications of maternal and child health nurse co-ordinator and team leader, do your work value argument go to any of the other clauses?

PN156

MR MEGENNIS: Well, I hope they do in the sense that on account of what we say are developments in relation to the clinical standards in maternal and child health nurses that are part and parcel of the work value claims, they are linked to the hours that nurses work under in relation to their delivery of maternal and child health services.

PN157

THE COMMISSIONER: But qualifications allowance, that is a straight, from what you have said, inability to negotiate it with the employer on the grounds that the employers keep on saying that is an award matter. I am having difficulty understanding how the hours of work draft order relates to work value or maybe I am just being extra thick this morning.

PN158

MR MEGENNIS: Well, what I was alluding to a minute ago, Commissioner, was that the ANF would rely on the development of those clinical standards that maternal and child health nurses are currently required to perform as a link into their ordinary working conditions.

PN159

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but the basis on which you are seeking to have included in the award and hours of work clause which basically covers implementation of the 38-hour week from what I can see, unless I have misunderstood, together with the shift allowance and stuff regarding overtime and special rates for Saturdays and Sundays, the basis for seeking to vary the award to include those is based on the changes in work value in that they are working harder.

PN160

MR MEGENNIS: I certainly hope that the Commission can recognise in our later submissions that there is a link.

PN161

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I am having difficulty, sorry, but I am being open about it. All right, maybe that shall become obvious if I stop interrupting and let you get on with it.

PN162

MR MEGENNIS: I certainly acknowledge the points that you are making, Commissioner, and it may well be that the ANF needs to consider its position on those particular parts of the application.

PN163

THE COMMISSIONER: I was just trying to understand it. I read it last night and I couldn't quite understand the basis for you seeking the various components of the draft order because you have dealt with them in your submissions separately.

PN164

MR MEGENNIS: Yes. Well, to some extent, it is also based on some uncertainty that is currently contained in the way in which those clauses are actually written in the award and also - - -

PN165

THE COMMISSIONER: Written in the Public Sector Award?

PN166

MR MEGENNIS: Well, yes, they - - -

PN167

THE COMMISSIONER: Because they are not in the Local Government Award.

PN168

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, you might say there are some anomalies in relation to the way in which they are constructed in the Local Government Award as compared to the Public Sector Award and it may very well be that the Commission doesn't regard them as part of - as a work value exercise. Certainly I would hope that the Commission might consider it otherwise in terms of what submissions we make, but hopefully, if I am able to make submissions on those particular clauses, there might be some clarification as to where those anomalies lie.

PN169

THE COMMISSIONER: That would be helpful. I am just indicating right from the beginning as to what I wasn't sure about in terms of your written submissions and would appreciate assistance with that in the course of your oral submissions as appropriate and when you see fit, Mr Megennis.

PN170

MR MEGENNIS: Yes. May I continue, Commissioner?

PN171

THE COMMISSIONER: I shall stop interrupting, Mr Megennis.

PN172

MR MEGENNIS: That is fine. Insofar as this application is concerned, it seeks to flow on the industry standards and derive from the work value component that we hope to be able to rely upon in these submissions, to flow them on to the maternal and child health nurses who represent approximately one per cent or 442 EFT of the total nursing workforce in Victoria. Insofar as this application is required to satisfy National Wage Fixing principles, this application is made in the knowledge that it is consistent with the current National Wage Case principles as relevantly outlined in the Commission's national safety net review decision, print 002004 dated 5 May 2004.

PN173

In this decision, the Commission reaffirmed a number of principles that stem from the August 1989 National Wage Case, print H9100. The current principles that the ANF relies on in this application are outlined in attachment A of the principles which is the first exhibit that I have referred to earlier titled Clothing Trades Award. If I can draw the Commission's attention to attachment A that is part of the extract of that first exhibit, it is situated in the back part of that document and if I can refer to point 5, adjustment of allowances and service increments and advise that under subclause (g) where changes in the work value have occurred or new work and conditions have arisen, the question of a new allowance, if any, will be determined in accordance with the relevant principles of this statement of principles.

PN174

The relevant principles in this context may be work value changes or first award or extension to an existing award and subclause (h), new service increments may only be awarded to compensate changes in the work and/or conditions and will be determined in accordance with the relevant parts of the work value changes principles of this statement of principles. That is essentially where the main thrust of the ANFs application stems from, Commissioner, in respect of relying on these principles to try to demonstrate that there have been significant changes in the work value principles of maternal and child health nurses in the State of Victoria. In addition, if I can draw your attention to subclauses (a) and (h) at point 6 in those principles with the particular emphasis on the work value changes. At subclause (a), the principles state that:

PN175

Changes in work value may arise from changes to the nature of the work, skill and responsibility required or the conditions under which the work is performed ...(reads)... the change in the nature of the work should constitute such a significant net addition to work requirements as to warrant the creation of a new classification or upgrading to a higher classification.

PN176

Essentially that also links into our other part of our proposed variation in respect of the new classifications for a maternal and child health co-ordinator and the team leader. In addition, and I am going back to subclause (a):

PN177

In addition to meeting this test, a party making a work value application will need to justify any changes to wage relativities that might result not only within the relevant internal award structure, but also against external classifications to which the structure is related. There must be no likelihood of wages leapfrogging arising out of changes in relative positions.

PN178

And it goes on to say:

PN179

These are the only circumstances in which rates may be altered on the ground of the work value and the altered rates may be applied only to employees whose work has changed in accordance with this principle.

PN180

And (b):

PN181

In applying the work value changes principle, the Commission will have regard to the need for alterations to wage relativities between awards, to be based on skill, responsibility and the conditions under which the work is performed. These are the conditions as required by section 88B(3)(a) of the Workplace Relations Act 1996.

PN182

And it goes on to say in subclause (c):

PN183

Where new or changed work justifying a higher rate is performed only from time to time by persons covered by a particular classification ...(reads)... only when the new or changed work performed by a particular employee and not by increasing the rate for the classification as a whole.

PN184

That is our contention, that insofar as the work value components that we rely upon in this application is that all maternal and child health nurses are affected by the work that they are required to perform. It is not just singling out individual nurses as such and subclause (d):

PN185

At the time from which work value changes in an award should be measured is the date of operation of the second structural efficiency adjustment allowable under the August 1989 National Wage Case decision.

PN186

Now, I have included that in the authorities, not to rely on anything in particular, Commissioner, other than to provide that as an accompanying document to the May 2004 safety net review principles. Also within the work value principles in attachment A, there are references to standard hours. As I have said, Commissioner, this application does incorporate some changes to the standard hours provisions in the Nurses Local Government Award. At point 7 it states that:

PN187

In approving any application to reduce the standard hours to 38 per week, the Commission will satisfy itself that the cost impact is minimised.

PN188

We certainly maintain that should the Commission determine any approval in relation to that part of our application, that it be no cost impact to local government by amending the award to reflect the ANFs application. This application meets the above criteria and incorporates a reassessment of the work value of maternal and child health nurses in that since the last two professional nurses work value test case cases in 1986 and 1989 which are outlined in that document titled Industrial Relations Commission of Victoria in full session, cases number 156 and 190 of 1986, otherwise called the Registered Nurses Case Number 2.

PN189

That is essentially the Commission's decision that dealt with you might say the Victorian sector of the health industry as far as the nurses were concerned when dealing with a national professional rates case for nurses back in 1986 and 1989 and since that period of time, there have been substantial and significant developmental changes to the maternal and child health nurses' clinical knowledge and professional competencies.

PN190

When assessing these developments against industry standards, it reveals that the remuneration, for instance of the maternal and child health nurse was anomalous to the equivalent classifications and other comparable professions similarly described. In regards to this application, the proposed variation redresses the imbalance and seeks to re-establish a link to a benchmark long held as relevant by the Commission which since 1989 has been severely eroded by other developments such as the splitting of maternal and child health nurses from the Nurses Award.

PN191

For the Commission's interest, the maternal and child health nurses did form part of the Registered Nurses Award when it was previously under the State Industrial Relations system in Victoria and also the market forces of enterprise bargaining which have significantly disadvantaged maternal and child health nurses by further eroding the balance of wage relativities between maternal and child health nurses and equivalently classified nurses employed in the public and the private sector.

PN192

We also say that the maternal and child health nurses as a group of nurses in Victoria have been economically isolated by way of some of the other developments that have been occurring in relation to the nurses in general who are employed in the public and the private sector throughout Victoria. In my later submissions, I shall also reveal further evidence to give effect to demonstrating that a significant number of clinical changes to the maternal and child health nursing profession have been introduced over the last 14 years, thereby giving weight to the ANFs claim that there is merit in awarding these changes on the grounds that there has been a significant change in the work value of maternal and child health nurses in Victoria.

PN193

In support of these changes, the ANF will also provide evidence to the Commission of other industrial developments such as the movements in nurses' wage rates, including the recognition and the awarding of higher qualification payments which the ANF anticipates will support our contention that the historical developments in relation to the relativities established in the nurses' professional rates case of the 1980s are either out of date or significantly disturbed by way of the advent of enterprise bargaining and also other factors that have been impacting on maternal and child health services in local government over the last 15 years or so.

PN194

To briefly illustrate the reference to satisfying point 6 of the statement of principles concerning meeting of the test and making comparable assessments of other classifications, it is worth noting that an important historical nexus of fixing maternal and child health nurses' wage rates has been lost since the decisions of the late 80s in respect of the professional rates case. If I can refer you to the Full Bench decision of Marshall P, Eggington J and Williams C in decision number 107/1987 of the Industrial Relations Commission of Victoria.

PN195

This was a decision based on the emerging career structure of nurses in Victoria. The Commission reaffirmed an established historical link between maternal and child health nurses and charge nurses working in public hospitals. The link went as far back as 1944 and is recorded in the relevant Conciliation and Arbitration Board's minutes which importantly contained an Industrial Appeals Court decision of 23 June 1966. The Full Bench referred to an extract of this decision as follows and if I can just draw your attention to where that was cited. It should be on the second page in, on page 472, at the last paragraph at the bottom of the page and if I can quote that section of the Commission's decision, Commissioner:

PN196

In the Court's view, based on the evidence and exhibits placed before it, no reason exists for disturbing the situation which has prevailed in Victoria since 1944 that an infant welfare sister -

PN197

that is a maternal and child health nurse -

PN198

work is value at a higher rate than that of a charge nurse.

PN199

The Commission then went on to state that - it is on page 474 and I think the pages have been slightly glitched in relation to the order. It should be the last page or the second last page of that document, but the Commission stated that:

PN200

We take a comparable view for the purpose of this particular reserve matter. In our view, it would be unnecessarily provocative to ignore over 40 years of salary history.

PN201

And the Commission went on to award the nurses, maternal and child health nurses, higher qualification payments in relation to that particular matter, Commissioner. The Commission arrived at that decision to award the maternal and child health nurses an additional allowance for higher qualifications held for the post graduate qualifications. These qualifications are a mandatory prerequisite for entry into this part of the nursing profession and as noted by the Full Bench, not a prerequisite for charge nurses.

PN202

In the ANFs view, when analysing this decision in 2004, it is clearly evident that the historical nexus between these two rates has been lost and due to the combined effect of 14 years of industrial developments in wages and conditions for the charge nurses across the public sector, there is now a staggering approximately 19.2 per cent or a $204.20 per week anomaly between the charge nurse, in favour of the charge nurse and the maternal and child health nurse.

PN203

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Megennis, where in your draft order do you seek to rectify this, what you allege to be an anomaly?

PN204

MR MEGENNIS: The main part of that anomaly is in respect of addressing the higher qualifications provisions to be re-inserted back into the award, Commissioner, and just to support the comment that I have just made, Commissioner, in respect of that anomaly between the rates of pay, could I refer you to the documents that are headed Mitchell Shire Council Enterprise Agreement Number 3 as well as those supplementary wage schedules.

PN205

You will note in relation to the Mitchell Shire Council EBA extract, in the third page in there is a table of rates of pay for maternal and child health nurses. That rate of pay under the second year, 1073.50 in the last column is where the ANF calculated this comment in relation to the disparity between the maternal and child health nurses and the rate of pay for the charge nurses in the public sector. Now, you can take into consideration the relevance of that if you have a look at the public sector pay rates. That was the supplementary decision table of rates that I have provided earlier this morning.

PN206

You can see on the first part of that page, there are rates of pay under 4A and 4B for the charge nurses and you can see that these rates of pay in terms of the current rates that are applicable under the Public Sector Enterprise Agreement from 1 October 2004 are significantly higher than the rate of pay applicable to the maternal and child health nurse who had the same grading in terms of being graded at 4B and taking into consideration also at the bottom of that page where there are allowances that include the qualifications allowances, if you take into consideration the post graduate diploma/degree allowance of $50.50 per week and add that to the charge nurse rate in the public sector, the anomaly is as I have outlined, Commissioner, and the point that I was making before in respect of the Full Bench's decision in 1987 was that the anomaly at that time was in favour of maternal and child health nurses in the sense that rates of pay in January 1990 were only three per cent apart in terms of the difference between the maternal and child health nurse and the charge nurse.

PN207

Now, that anomaly is impacting significantly in relation to the maternal and child health nurses across the State and particularly those nurses working in rural Victoria which I have illustrated by way of the Mitchell Shire Council EBA rates. Now, the three per cent margin was indicative of the Full Bench's consideration of that historical nexus and if I may add that in terms of those developments over the last 15 years, if I can use the references back from the Victorian Commission, there certainly has been a provocative step in relation to it not being unnoticed by the maternal and child health nurses in Victoria since that period of time.

PN208

We have seen their rates of pay and other conditions eroded by the failure of the councils to recognise the clinical developments that have occurred over that period of time. Significantly, except for maternal and child health nurses, the entitlement to post graduate qualifications allowances was re-established in 2000 and is now a standard for all registered division 1 nurses employed in the public, private and aged care facilities throughout Victoria.

PN209

Interestingly, it is also worth noting that a registered nurse division 2 also has an entitlement to a higher qualifications payment and if I can draw your attention to that point in the copy of the extract from the Nurses Victorian Health Services Award is a reference to that particular allowance under 61.9 of that document, Commissioner, where a State enrolled nurse is entitled to claim an additional allowance based on the qualifications, the additional qualifications that they have obtained, so what we have got it certainly some significant developments within the health industry standards for nurses that in Victoria, all nurses except for approximately 442 nurses who are maternal and child health qualified, all those nurses except for those receive the higher qualifications payments.

PN210

It is also worth nothing that those higher qualifications entitlements which are not a mandatory prerequisite for gaining entry into the profession are paid to those nurses if they can demonstrate that the qualification, that post graduate qualification is relevant to the duties that they are required to perform. Now, clearly in these circumstances, you have got a charge nurse for instance in the public sector who may have voluntarily sought to increase his or her level of knowledge and gone out and undertaken further post graduate study and who returns back, or continues to work in the public or the private sector who is able to, if they can demonstrate the relevance of those qualifications as being directly related to their work and their duties, then they will be paid that particular higher qualification payment.

PN211

Now, clearly we have got a situation where maternal and child health nurses which represent one per cent of the State's Victorian nurses are required as part of a mandatory requirement to be qualified with those post graduate qualifications. Some have even got the masters qualifications, but will receive no further recognition in terms of a formal recognition by the councils to pay those higher qualifications equivalent to the public sector and/or private sector and similarly in relation to the anomalies that exist across the State in respect of maternal and child health nurses themselves, what you have is, apart from the maternal and child health nurses working in the local government area, you have maternal and child health nurses who also work within the public sector which includes the Department of Human Services 24-hour call service which is essentially an emergency service for the after hours for maternal and child health services that are not staffed by the local government areas.

PN212

Now, those nurses are paid in accordance with the public sector rates of pay. Now, those nurses will also, apart from receiving higher rates of pay as far as the base salary will also be entitled to claim their higher qualifications allowances based on their post graduate qualifications. Now, the same applies to groups of maternal and child health nurses who actually work in what are now contracted out local councils services such as Nillumbik and Brimbank and Shepparton Councils.

PN213

They have contracted their maternal and child health services out to the public sector by way of community health centres and those nurses will once again receive the benefit of the public sector rates of pay inclusive of the higher qualifications payments. Similarly in relation to the Tweddle Centre. I am not sure whether you are familiar with the Tweddle Centre. It is a parenting centre. Those facilities also employ maternal and child health nurses and are paid the same public sector rates for the higher qualifications as well as the base rates of pay, so you have got a significant anomaly in relation to one sector of the maternal and child health nurses working in Victoria receiving the benefit of that entitlement and it is also recognised by the Department of Human Services as an approved provision under the enterprise bargaining agreements that were recently negotiated in the public sector.

PN214

Now, why it is that the Department of Human Services on the one hand can approve a higher qualification payment for the maternal and child health nurse working in the public sector as I have just outlined, but not provide the funding or the approval to fund a wages component for maternal and child health nurses in local government is clearly of some concern to the Australian Nursing Federation, in particular the maternal and child health nurses who are working in local government.

PN215

It is my understanding, if it is of any use to the Commission and I can stand corrected, the history of the funding formula to local government from the department is that or was previously the department I think funded approximately 60 per cent of funding for maternal and child health services to local government. Now, I understand that there has been a significant shift in the sense that the government funding formula has shifted the opposite way around in the sense that local government is probably funding up to 60 per cent of maternal and child health budget.

PN216

I made the point earlier, Commissioner, about when the ANF has been attempting to negotiate higher qualifications, for instance, in the enterprise agreement negotiations that the local government employers have said, well, this is a matter for the ANF to deal with in the Commission by way of applying for an award variation, but that same argument has been applied by the Department of Human Services and as I recollect from a meeting that the ANF participated in approximately a year and a half ago, the ANF met with representatives of the Municipal Association of Victoria and the Department of Human Services and we had lengthy discussions about that issue concerning the wage parity and the complexities arising out of those issues, incorporating the arguments about increases in work value.

PN217

They were issues that were discussed at that meeting and the department once again formed the same view as the local government employers to say, well, this is a matter for the ANF to deal with as it sees fit and ought to be a matter for them to consider an application to vary the award, because at that time they weren't prepared to find any more funding to deal with that particular issue. If I can go back to the principles, the statement of principles in relation to the hours provision.

PN218

As alluded to in my earlier reference to point 7 of the review principles, the ANFs application also seeks to incorporate a change to the existing hours clause to reflect industry practice insofar as bringing into line the standard hours and penalty provisions that currently exist across all nursing and health industry awards throughout Victoria. The clauses relating to this part of the ANFs application are essentially designed to give certainty to the arrangement of the spread of the standard hours to the extent of determining what are the ordinary hours worked between Monday to Friday.

PN219

In addition, the draft clauses also address the imbalance of existing ordinary working hours in terms of when a maternal and child health nurse is required to perform duties either in the out of hours, including weekends and to bring into line the arrangement of hours consistent with health industry standards in other awards and also other awards relevant to local government. Insofar as these clauses are required to satisfy point 7 of the Commission's statement of principles, the ANF maintains that the implementation of these conditions will have negligible impact on employers and local government's capacity to adjust the maternal and child health nurses' weekly rates of pay according to the hours worked each week.

PN220

If I can move to the particular clauses in the ANFs draft variation, I would like to briefly outline the reasons for seeking to have those clauses inserted in the award. In relation to that draft variation, section 1 where it states amending clause 6.8 of the definition of maternal and child health nurse, the ANF advises that in its opinion that it is a minor amendment to the existing clause and changes the reference from requiring maternal and child health qualification to requiring a post graduate qualification. I would also like to perhaps seek the Commission's approval in adding a minor amendment to that particular clause by adding the additional words -

PN221

or equivalent -

PN222

after that reference to post graduate qualifications, primarily because there clearly are groups of nurses, maternal and child health nurses, who have obtained their qualifications to practice as a maternal and child health nurse prior to the advent of the tertiary base education system.

PN223

MR WILSON: Could I just understand where that or equivalent is seeking to be inserted?

PN224

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want me to read it out as far as I understand it?

PN225

MR WILSON: Yes.

PN226

THE COMMISSIONER: The clause would read:

PN227

Maternal and child health nurse shall mean a registered nurse engaged in infant welfare work or in work requiring a post graduate maternal and child health qualification or equivalent and shall have the same meaning.

PN228

Is that correct?

PN229

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, Commissioner, thank you. This amendment is essentially a modification of the existing words and signifies an acknowledgment that since the 1980s, maternal and child health nurses are required to obtain a mandatory post graduate qualification in maternal and child health for the purpose of gaining registration as a maternal and child health nurse and being able to be employed by a local government employer.

PN230

The subsequent amendment or equivalent is in effect a preservation entitlement to nurses who are trained as maternal and child health nurses outside the tertiary sector as I have just outlined. In section two there are two new clauses providing a definition and a rate of pay for maternal and child health co-ordinator and team leader. In relation to the maternal and child health co-ordinator, this clause in effect gives recognition of the fact that the vast majority of metropolitan and rural councils have appointed qualified maternal and child health nurses to co-ordinate and manage the maternal and child health service.

PN231

This clause is also designed to give weight to the fact that for many years, whilst having appointed maternal and child health co-ordinators to manage the council's maternal and child health service, the award has failed to recognise that a co-ordinator is an integral component to the maternal and child health career structure. I might also add, Commissioner, where I have stated that where councils in a rural area have appointed co-ordinators, in many circumstances the ANF understands that whilst there may not be a stand alone co-ordinator as such appointed to the position, it is often a role and the responsibilities undertaken by the maternal and child health nurse without any other recognition of remuneration for performing those duties.

PN232

The range of duties normally undertaken by the co-ordinator are complex and requires the application of a greater level of understanding of the council's executive and administrative structure than that of a maternal and child health nurse who is ordinarily required to have in the performance of their day to day duties. An important component of this position is that the co-ordinator is also a mentor for maternal and child health nurses who rely on having a qualified maternal and child health nurse or possesses a far greater understanding of emerging professional and clinical developments within the occupation and who can crucially impart their knowledge of these developments from a professional nursing point of view.

PN233

Having a direct reference point in the award for the co-ordinator establishes an acknowledged link that maternal and child health nurses are now able to have a defined career path to a managerial level that relates solely to maternal and child health. Previously, back in the late 80s up until the early 90s, the department essentially managed and co-ordinated the maternal and child health services by having a number of advisers who basically went around providing the relevant assistance in terms of developing standards and the like for maternal and child health services.

PN234

As a consequence of some of the economic changes that were occurring at that period of time, including the deregulation, you might say, of the Government's input into those maternal and child health services, there were no rigid structures, there were no formal structures in relation to having co-ordinators actually manage the maternal and child health services within the local government and often it was a delegated responsibility to a maternal and child health nurse who would be relied upon to develop all those links that the advisers would have previously had when they were providing the service from the department.

PN235

We say also that establishing this pathway is not dissimilar to the general nursing profession where classifications such as assistant director of nursing and director of nursing classifications exist for the purpose of establishing a defined career path for nurses seeking greater challenges and responsibilities by moving into the general managerial structure for nurses, so there are some clear similarities in relation to ensuring that this classification is recognised as a defined classification for qualified maternal and child health nurses.

PN236

The additional rate of pay for the co-ordinator of 10 per cent above the rate of pay for a year two maternal and child health nurse is based on established rates of pay that currently exist under enterprise agreements throughout most local councils. I will late on draw the Commission's attention to some examples of those rates, Commissioner. What we are essentially saying in respect of whether the Commission approves this part of our application is that the insertion of the classification, obviously it recognises, acknowledges the status of the maternal and child health co-ordinator.

PN237

Insofar as the rate of pay is concerned, it is not going to have any impact on the councils in terms of having to find the additional funding to pay for that rate of pay because they are currently already paying maternal and child health nurses, particularly where there are designated stand alone co-ordinators, are paid well above the award rates and in some cases they are in individual contracts at the senior executive officer level, but in the main, the ANF would contend that 10 per cent above the year two rate is a consistent rate of pay that is common throughout local government and will have no impact.

PN238

In relation to the definition of the team leader, there is evidence from within the maternal and child health services that on account of the complexities and the increasing work loads of maternal and child health co-ordinators, there is a delegation of responsibilities to other maternal and child health nurses who by way of their level of experience are able to undertake a higher level of responsibility that assists in the development of the council's maternal and child health services, particularly when it comes to direct contact with the maternal and child health nurses.

PN239

Despite the emerging developments of these positions, the maternal and child health nurse who takes on this level of responsibility are not remunerated beyond their basic weekly wage. That is if they are a year two nurse, maternal and child health nurse, they will be paid only that rate of pay as described under the relevant enterprise agreement. The absence of having a clause describing the nature of these duties is in part due to the development of significant policy and clinical issues derived from the changes to State and local government maternal and child health strategies.

PN240

In addition, it is symptomatic of the absence of a defined career path for maternal and child health nurses who for many years have been burdened with the even greater and more complex responsibilities and duties that are in our view exploited by the employers who refuse to acknowledge that those nurses are performing at a higher level other than the year one or year two maternal and child health nurse.

[12.02pm]

PN241

THE COMMISSIONER: Are there team leaders currently existing within the local government area?

PN242

MR MEGENNIS: As far as the enterprise agreement negotiations are concerned and the agreements as such, there are no defined positions as such for a team leader, but invariably, the co-ordinator will delegate some aspects of their responsibilities primarily because of their own increasing work load to that of a senior maternal and child health nurse and I will also provide the supporting evidence to give effect to some of these arrangements in the latter part of my submissions by way of the witness evidence and the documentation, Commissioner.

PN243

In section three, the amendment to clause 12 is in effect a machinery provision in the sense that it is incidental to identifying the additional classifications of the team leader in the wages and related matters section of the award. In section four, the subsequent amendments to clause 12 which insert new subclauses 12.4 and 12.5 in wages and related matters are the descriptions of each of the new classifications that identify the co-ordinator and the team leader.

PN244

Also the references that I have alluded to earlier in relation to the salaries in section five. I have got my numbering slightly out of whack there. In section four, under 12.6, this inserts a new subclause which is designed to provide an additional five per cent allowance for a maternal and child health nurse who is required to also undertake the additional responsibilities of immunisation sessions. The additional allowances recognise that there is an increase to the work value of a maternal and child health nurse who is required to take the sole responsibility for the administering of immunisation injections without the supervision of a medical practitioner.

PN245

In some situations, Commissioner, in the local government areas, the immunisations sessions that are conducted by the council may be conducted by stand alone immunisation nurses and there are provisions under the award that cater, provide for that remuneration, but in most of those circumstances, where an immunisation nurse performs a duty, they will perform the duty under the supervision of a qualified medical practitioner, whereas in relation to the maternal and child health nurse who is required to provide that immunisation, they will provide that without that level of supervision.

PN246

Section five relates to the salaries and I have I think already brought the Commission's attention to those rates of pay. Section six and I have already made some submissions thus far, inserts a new subclause 17.9, qualifications allowance. As I have said, the ANFs claim is based on re-establishing an entitlement to a higher qualification allowance on work value grounds consistent with the Commission's statement of principles, insofar as there has been a significant increase to the clinical and professional responsibilities that comparable classifications for nurses in the health industry have re-established the same entitlement on similar grounds.

PN247

The ANFs application also relies on the principles as a means of supporting the union's argument that there has been no further measurement of the work value component of maternal and child health nurse occupation since 1987 when the professional rates case was conducted nationally and also incorporated Victoria into that process and also if I can indicate is relevant in terms of the current wage fixing principles in the sense of where the principles make that reference back to there being no work value exercises since the 1989 wage fixing principles.

PN248

Section seven amends clause 17 by inserting a new subclause 17.10, shift allowances of 2.5 per cent for ordinary hours worked after six pm Monday to Friday. This clause is an industry standard for all health professionals working throughout the public and the private sector. The Nurses Local Government Award is a health industry award which was historically linked to the former Registered Nurses Award up until 1992 and due to the changes in the delivery of maternal and child health services over the last 14 years, there are increasing demands placed on the maternal and child health nurse to work outside the ordinary award hours by providing clients with visiting and parental class sessions during the evenings which in some cases occur as late as eight pm.

PN249

In terms of health industry standards and subject to providing the Commission with compelling evidence, the ANF maintains that this claim meets the criteria outlined in point 5G of the statement of principles. Based on the developments across the industry, the ANF will take the Commission later to further evidence on this matter during witness examination. In section eight, the ANF seeks to amend clause 18, the hours of work, by modifying the existing spread of hours to bring the arrangement of hours into line with the other health industry awards based on the principles of establishing clear guidelines of what are defined as the ordinary hours and weekend work.

PN250

In section nine, the application amends clause 19, overtime, by inserting provisions for time in lieu of overtime which are consistent also with the provisions of the Nurses Victorian Health Services Award 2000. Currently the overtime clause contained in the Nurses Local Government Award prohibits an entitlement to time in lieu of overtime. There is also, if I can just draw the Commission's attention to that point, under the personal carer's leave provisions and I think it is consistent with the test case standards that were determined at the time, there are provisions for time in lieu of overtime that can be implemented, but why it was not ever considered to be part of the ordinary overtime clause I am uncertain, but certainly in terms of the ANFs application, we are trying to bring this into line with health industry standards, because certainly in the ANFs view, the maternal and child health nurses are part of the health industry as are the rest of the nurses.

PN251

The nature of the spread of the hours in the industry, that is maternal and child health nurses sector, often requires the nurses to work approved overtime. In many instances, the overtime arrangements are based on time in lieu of overtime. However, time in lieu is invariably calculated as ordinary time rather than at the equivalent penalty for overtime. It is a loophole that councils will rely upon in order to pay for penalty rates in situations of genuine overtime.

PN252

There is also an anomaly in the current award provisions which I have just referred you to, Commissioner, in respect to the personal leave provisions under clause 22.10 of the award, although under these provisions the entitlement for time in lieu of overtime arrangement exists, it is based on ordinary time, but in our view, that is not the clause that we want to have considered by the Commission in relation to this matter. It is our view that that clause should as part of our application be consistent with the Nurses 2000 Award which incidentally has that same anomaly in its personal carer's provisions under the Nurses Award 2000 where the time in lieu is at ordinary time, but the overtime clause in that same award clearly establishes an entitlement for time in lieu of overtime to be calculated at the equivalent penalty rate. At section 10 - - -

PN253

THE COMMISSIONER: Special rates for Saturdays and Sundays.

PN254

MR MEGENNIS: Sorry, Commissioner?

PN255

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, Mr Megennis, you just said number 10. I was thinking you might be up to number nine, because I don't have a number 10.

PN256

MR WILSON: Ditto, Commissioner.

PN257

MR MEGENNIS: I think that is where I have lost the sequence of my numbers.

PN258

THE COMMISSIONER: Special rates for Saturdays and Sundays.

PN259

MR MEGENNIS: Yes. I beg your pardon, Commissioner. This section in relation to inserting a new subclause 19.3, special rates for Saturdays and Sundays, as I have said similarly in relation to the hours clause and overtime, this is a common health industry standard that the ANF seeks to have reflected in the Nurses Local Government Award who are now required to perform as part of their ordinary hours work on weekends and often where it does occur, it is paid at ordinary time rates.

PN260

If I can just go through a summary of those proposed amendments, Commissioner, and obviously subject to the Commission's approval in relation to awarding the ANF the proposed variation, this application is an important step towards restoring an acknowledgment that maternal and child health nurses are an integral component to the health industry. The progressive moves of the nurses' professional rates case of the 1980s were timely in terms of addressing a major shift in the professional development and the recognition of nurses across Australia.

PN261

Despite those developments, there have been substantial and in some instances unforeseen changes to the legislative framework determining the structure of awards, the decentralisation of wage fixing, the shift to single enterprise agreements, all of which have impacted upon the maternal and child health nurses. Their industrial conditions associated with work value and wage parity in our view have languished as a consequence of those changes which have included council amalgamations that have reduced the number of equivalent full-time nurses.

PN262

Former State Government strategies such as the competitive tendering process which drove down the conditions of employment for maternal and child health nurses and in such circumstances, as it affected all councils and nurses were not immune from that process, they were required to tender for their own jobs and services and often, in some cases, that meant providing tenders that actually reduced their conditions in the overall scheme of further service.

PN263

The cost shifting of the Government funding of maternal and child health services I outlined before, where we have had the changes in the funding formula and enterprise bargaining which in our view has isolated the maternal and child health nurses into minority groups who no longer have the capacity to bargain against the increasing demands to undertake new clinical initiatives imposed on them by the State Government. Subject to the ANF submissions, if the Commission determines on reasonable grounds that the ANFs application has merit, approving the draft clauses goes half way towards restoring the balance of comparative work value and restoring a historical link between the wage fixing of maternal and child health nurses and other registered nurses working in Victoria.

PN264

The balance thereafter is an issue of wage parity that since 1989 has resulted in significant disparity not only between the maternal and child health nurses and the 46,000 other nurses working in Victoria, but importantly between the maternal and child health nurses employed across local government in this State which on current assessment means approximately a 25 per cent wages gap between the highest and the lowest paid maternal and child health nurse in Victoria and to illustrate that point, if I can take the Commission to the extract from the Banyule Enterprise Agreement and take you to the last page, where it has a table of rates which are for maternal and child health nurses and if you come down the left hand column where it says the total, taking you across to the right hand side, you have a current rate of pay for maternal and child health nurse at that council at $1348.17 per week.

PN265

That takes into consideration an allowance which is a rolled up allowance in view of another set of conditions that incorporate uniforms and the like type of allowances and also recognise the council's progressive attitude towards maternal and child health nurses, compared to the rates of pay as I have recently outlined in the Mitchell Shire Council Agreement where their weekly rate of pay is $1073.50, so that is where you get that disparity. I should perhaps qualify that point in the sense that the Mitchell Shire Council has also a management allowance which is - I think it is either $28 or $30 a week, but it is based on where the nurse is require to be in charge of managing the maternal and child health centre, but the point that I am trying to illustrate there, Commissioner, is that there are significant wage disparities across the State, not only just between the public sector and private sector nurses and local government nurses, but also within the local government structure in itself and that point is illustrated by those rates of pay between the Banyule nurses and the Mitchell Shire Council nurses.

PN266

The application before you, Commissioner, is what we would claim to be an application that satisfies the relevant provisions of section 89A of the Industrial Relations Act in the sense that it provides opportunities for awards to have incorporated into the award provisions relating to higher qualifications allowances and other new classifications.

PN267

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Megennis, just before you go any further, can I just reflect back what I think is the essence of your submissions in terms of what you are relying on, just to ensure that I am clear?

PN268

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN269

THE COMMISSIONER: Looking at your draft order, essentially the new classification, in terms of number one, you are seeking to update the wording, I think, in terms of having post graduate maternal and child health, but you are seeking to add what you have amended this morning or equivalent to pick up those of your members who have prior qualifications, if I can put it that way.

PN270

MR MEGENNIS: That is correct.

PN271

THE COMMISSIONER: In terms of the new classifications of maternal and child health nurse co-ordinator and team leader, you are relying on principle six which is the work value changes for those two.

PN272

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN273

THE COMMISSIONER: And then in 12.6 where you have got a new allowance for a nurse who is required to undertake immunisation sessions, that comes under principle 5G which provides for a new allowance.

PN274

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, that is correct, Commissioner.

PN275

THE COMMISSIONER: Then with respect to the qualifications allowance, the shift allowance - - -

PN276

MR MEGENNIS: Sorry, are you incorporating all of those?

PN277

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I was going to bundle up and just correct me, the hours of work comes under standard hours, I assume.

PN278

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN279

THE COMMISSIONER: Which is principle seven, then the other matters which I think are qualifications allowance, shift allowance, overtime and special rates for Saturdays and Sundays, they are all matters that you are relying - I understand it is incorporation, of giving parity to private sector, public sector, aged care, as in industry standards.

PN280

MR MEGENNIS: Based on the principle that there are work value changes that have occurred.

PN281

THE COMMISSIONER: That is what I want to get at. That is what I thought. Is that a fair synopsis of the basis on which you are seeking the individual variations?

PN282

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, that is correct, Commissioner.

PN283

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN284

MR MEGENNIS: Commissioner, I intended to go into some merit in relation to some aspects of the various provisions of the draft variation. I am not sure what time you are intending to have a luncheon break.

PN285

THE COMMISSIONER: I think the parties are aware from the listing that I have a listing set down for 12.45 on another matter, so I was thinking the luncheon adjournment today might be 12.45 until two, if that suits the parties, just simply because I have that other matter. Otherwise it would be shorter.

PN286

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN287

THE COMMISSIONER: And I am happy if you want to continue until quarter to. I am equally happy if it is a natural break in your submissions and it will upset your flow if you start then stop. I am in your hands.

PN288

MR MEGENNIS: Okay. All right, I will take the Commission into some merit issues concerning the various components of the draft variation. If I can start firstly with some historical reference points in respect of higher qualifications. As a historical reference point, up until 1992, the State Registered Nurses Award was a six part health industry award that covered all registered nurses employed throughout the State of Victoria, inclusive of public and private health sector facilities and additionally inclusive of local government and educational institutions.

PN289

They were essentially also paid rates awards. Until the early to mid 1980s, maternal and child health nurses employed in local government were classified as infant welfare nurses whose terms and conditions of employment were governed by part 2 or 3 of the award, subject to the historical development of the various parts of the award. The wage rates for maternal and child health nurses were contained in two separate classifications based on the holders of in service certificates, being the lower rates and the holders of post graduate certificates and diplomas being higher.

PN290

The rates of pay were scaled by incremental advancement in accordance with the years of service, the highest level being year four for each of those classifications. Those rates were also separated from the common provisions of all other registered nurses employed in the public and the private hospitals at that time. In addition to recognising that maternal and child health nurses were required to obtain a mandatory post graduate qualification, an allowance in addition to the base rate of pay was also payable.

PN291

The allowances were at that stage between 3.5 per cent and 7.5 per cent of the base rate, depending on the highest qualification held. Registered nurses employed under part 1 of the award were also entitled to an additional qualifications allowance and these were referred to as in service certificates and payable only where a nurse could demonstrate that the class of the work was directly linked to a particular qualification and you may recall in my earlier submissions, Commissioner, that I alluded to the Full Bench's historical nexus to the charge nurse.

PN292

As a point worth noting, the highest base rate of pay applicable to the maternal and child health nurse at that time was approximately 6.5 per cent higher than the rate of pay for a charge nurse. I did also make some earlier reference to that being three per cent or approximately three per cent at 1990, but essentially at that particular point in time, in the mid 80s, that nexus or that wage parity issue that the Commission relied on as a significant issue indicated at the time that the maternal and child health nurses were 6.5 per cent higher than the rate of pay for a charge nurse.

[12.29pm]

PN293

In 1985/86 and due to the complexities arising from the union's prolonged and you might say bitter dispute with the Government at the time and the hospitals, the Full Bench of the Industrial Relations Commission of Victoria arbitrated the union's claims for improvements for wages and conditions and career path opportunities. This decision was known as the Registered Nurses Case Number 1 of 1986 in decision number D number 56/1986 and awarded extensive new wages and classification structure for all nurses in Victoria.

PN294

Thereafter, except for general conditions of employment, the rates of pay for maternal and child health nurses were contained in the common provisions for all public sector registered nurses under part 1 of the award and of particular significance, this decision placed both maternal and child health nurses and charge nurses on the same classification level at grade 4. As I outlined previously, Commissioner, grade 4B is the relevant classification that draws that nexus.

PN295

Following the number 1 case and as part of the developing link to the professional rates case for nurses across Australia, a combined application to vary the registered nurses award was lodged by the ACTU, the Royal Australian Nursing Federation and the Hospital Employees Federation. This application was determined by the Full Bench of the Industrial Relations Commission of Victoria in a decision on 23 January 1987, otherwise known as the Registered Nurses Case Number 2 which I have alluded to earlier in D number 1/1987.

PN296

Except for claims relating to maternal and child health nurses' classification and rates of pay which were held over as reserve matters, the main thrust of the Full Bench's decision was to further expand the classifications and the career path of registered nurses throughout Victoria. In relation to higher qualifications payments, a number of contentions were made by the Health Department at the time, objecting to the payment of the allowance and despite those contentions, the Full Bench rejected the employers' arguments and they stated and it is on page 26 of that decision which I referred you to earlier, Commissioner, which is probably the third document in. I must apologise for the reduction of the size of that document. On the bottom of pages 26 and 27, the Commission stated, the Full Bench stated, in rejecting the employers' arguments, that, and I quote:

PN297

We are of the opinion that a qualifications allowance ought to be paid only when nurses have acquired a qualification and are required to use the relevant skill in the course of their duties ...(reads)... for the existence of the allowance. For example, it might be a disincentive and dissuade such nurses from obtaining the qualification.

PN298

Now, that is an issue that is very relevant from today's point of view in the sense that in later evidence, we will illustrate to the Commission that there are disincentives within the maternal and child health service currently that is causing attraction and retention problems for local government and particularly when you compare that to the point that I made earlier, Commissioner, in respect of the charge nurse or a nurse in the public sector or private sector being able to obtain payment for a higher qualification payment which is not part of a mandatory requirement to have the qualification, but is paid provided they can demonstrate that there is a component they use from a higher qualification in the performance of their duties.

PN299

Now, clearly in our view that is what the Commission is saying here in that decision of 1987, where there is a clear requirement for the maternal and child health nurse to actually use the qualification, the post graduate qualifications as part of the ordinary day to day performance of their duties and as I have said, Commissioner, that is essential to reviewing this matter again in terms of the developments in the work value issues that we will draw the Commission to later. In that matter, the Commission then went on to refer to this matter as being the subject of a further consideration in respect to the professional salary structure, schedule 4, further proceedings later in that year.

PN300

In relation to those reserved matters, as I have just mentioned, the proceedings of the Commission in full session resulted in a significant decision for the nurses on 18 June 1987 in decision number 107/1987. I have already drawn the Commission's attention to this matter in respect to the historical nexus that exists between the maternal and child health nurses and the charge nurse and whilst not wishing to repeat my earlier submissions, there is an additional point that needs to be made in relation to this matter which the ANF anticipates may well be argued by my colleagues here today or tomorrow and it concerns the employers' assertions that higher qualifications allowances will have serious flow-on implications for other councils and their employees.

PN301

In view of potential submissions being made on that matter, I refer the Commission to the Full Bench's views on that issue that was canvassed at that time back in 1987 which - I am not able to refer you to the exact page at this moment. If I can take you to an earlier exhibit, Commissioner, which was the Registered Nurses Salaries and Careers Structure Reference Number 6 and it is situated on page 474 at the top of that page where the Commission was referring to the prospects that there would be a floodgate of flow-on claims where the Commission states that in that particular matter, where the qualifications were approved that they said that:

PN302

We see no possibility of a flow-on even to the community service officers or the social welfare workers employed in municipalities and we do not agree with the employers' views so far as maternal and child health nurses are concerned generally.

PN303

So what we are saying, Commissioner, in respect of that view held by the Commission at the time is that when the award was varied in 1987 to have the higher qualification entitlements flowed on to maternal and child health nurses, there was no evidence in relation to the flow-on claims that the employers sought to rely on in that particular case and we would say the same would be for any developments in relation to the Commission approving this current application.

PN304

In terms of the context of the current developments, in view of the Full Bench's decision of 1987 and I have just made that point, that we don't see any change in that argument, that based on the last four years of EBA negotiations with local government and although higher qualifications payments have formed part of the ANFs log of claims, there has been no evidence from any of the other sectors that demonstrate that other professional or tertiary qualified personnel have sought to have a post graduate qualification allowance as part of their enterprise bargaining wages outcomes.

PN305

ANF further understands that in terms of other occupational groups within local government gaining entry into a chosen occupation such as accounting or social work, early childhood education or planning, other than obtaining the initial tertiary degree, there is no mandatory requirement to obtain further post graduate qualifications before becoming qualified to be employed in any of those occupations, not the same as can be said for maternal and child health nurses who as part of their requirements to become qualified need to in effect have eight years of professional training just in terms of the tertiary training that is required to be undertaken prior to becoming registered as a maternal and child health nurse and they are required to be - lawfully required to be what we claim to be triple certificate qualified prior to becoming registered with the Nurses Board of Victoria and enables the nurse to become employed as a maternal and child health nurse and the triple certificate qualifications are based on obtaining the under graduate degree followed by separate post graduate degrees in midwifery and maternal and child health nursing.

PN306

Whilst the ANF acknowledges that the professional rates case of the 80s phased out the higher qualifications allowances, the case for having these allowances re-inserted into the award are based on recognising that there have been significant changes in the work value of maternal and child health nurses that in essence are no different to the recent developments leading to the re-introduction of the higher qualifications allowances that have been awarded to all other public sector nurses employed in Victoria and other States throughout Australia.

PN307

It is important to note that when the professional rates case was being heard, the benchmark that was used to establish the link to other health professionals was the hospital scientist and although not a mandatory requirement to possess a post graduate qualification to gain entry into the field of medical science, then the health sector, the hospital scientist was and still is able to claim payment for the higher qualifications allowances, so we are saying that there is an analogy in that there is a re-alignment of wage parity based on linking the higher qualifications to an increase in the work value and this is a matter that has been accepted by the Commission in a number of recent cases and I can take you to a number of those cases, Commissioner.

PN308

THE COMMISSIONER: May I suggest, Mr Megennis, you do that after the luncheon adjournment?

PN309

MR MEGENNIS: Thank you.

PN310

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. As discussed earlier, I shall adjourn until two pm. The Commission stands adjourned.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.44pm]

RESUMED [2.08pm]

PN311

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Megennis.

PN312

MR MEGENNIS: Thank you, Commissioner. Prior to the luncheon adjournment, the ANF was about to refer the Commission to a number of cases as a means of demonstrating that adjustments in the nursing industry take into consideration the work value issues that were clearly relevant in terms of awarding new conditions of employment, particularly relevant in relation to Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland and Tasmania and also I would like to perhaps make some references to some of the local council agreements that might be relevant in relation to these proceedings.

PN313

If I can refer you firstly to the matter concerning the Australian Industrial Relations Commission in the decision of Commissioner Blair of 31 August 2000 in print number S9958 and in that decision which, as I am sure you are fully aware, that was an arbitrated decision in relation to the nurses in the public sector in Victoria and the Department of Human Services, the VHIA, who were involved in a section 111AA arbitration and in terms of the Commission arriving at its decision in relation to a number of issues which in particular I refer to in this matter is the paragraph 231 which is on the second page in and paragraphs 232 and 233 and in particular if I can make some references to the Commission's decision in that matter where it stated in summing up its views on the matter that in relation to education and qualifications allowance, it illustrated that there was a need - I am quoting now -

PN314

there is a need to provide incentives to nurses to undertake post graduate courses and the decline of the nurses with specialist qualifications as a reflection of remuneration arrangements ...(reads)... allowance would be an inequity for those who could not undertake or did not want to undertake further education in order to achieve the additional qualifications.

PN315

And then the Commission goes on to say that:

PN316

It is at a loss to understand as to why some formal qualifications allowance does not apply given that in a range of industries, the additional training and the additional qualifications that once received, does provide an opportunity to get those qualifications recognised by additional rewards, e.g. remuneration.

PN317

And under the present system in paragraph 233:

PN318

The Commission is satisfied that insufficient incentive is provided for nurses to undertake additional education, which in the Commission's view is vital to ensure that proper nursing service is provided to the Victorian public.

PN319

Now, that is an analogy that we rely on in relation to the maternal and child health nurses in Victoria because the services that they provide to the Victorian public are clearly vital and essential to the development of young children in this community and across the country, for that matter, but it demonstrates also that the Commission accepted that in the overall scheme for nurses in Victoria, that based on the submissions of the ANF at that time, that it was recognised that there were increases in the work value of the nurses at the time of that decision being made in August 2000, Commissioner, and it went on in paragraph 234 to outline the nature of those payments in respect of those higher qualifications which are essentially the same claims that perform part of the ANFs application.

PN320

If I can refer you also to the Industrial Reports 2003/2004 plus also the Industrial Relations Commission of New South Wales. What the ANF would rely on in those matters is in relation to the Industrial Report at paragraphs 255 to 274, as reported in that decision, the claims made by the New South Wales Nursing Federation was essentially based around the work value claims that were being argued at that particular time and if I can make a specific reference at paragraph 260:

PN321

It was submitted that the claim for a qualifications allowance was based upon the unchallenged proposition that the public hospital system as the provision of care becomes more specialised and more technologically driven and more intense increasingly requires nurses to have a range of graduate qualifications. In this respect, the situation has altered dramatically since the professional rates case.

PN322

And clearly that is the same issue that we rely upon in relation to the maternal and child health nurses in that since the professional rates case of the late 80s, there have been no in-roads made to reconsider the work value of maternal and child health nurses since that time and certainly in the early to the mid-90s and onwards, there have been significant changes in terms of the development of maternal and child health services which we will allude to in later submissions, Commissioner, by way of witness evidence to support those contentions. If I can take you also to paragraph 266 where it states:

PN323

It was submitted that the qualification allowance claim as drafted was industrially unsound because it required a payment based on the holding of a qualification where the qualification was not necessary to hold or to undertake the position.

PN324

This in fact goes beyond even that what the Association sought to maintain in the aftermath of the professional rates case. So clearly what we are saying here in respect to that comment is that there is a requirement to hold that qualification as compared to the issues that were outlined in that particular case and although as I am sure the Commission is aware and presumably our colleague here today are also aware that the decision and the outcome of that decision, whilst not recognising the nurses' claim for a higher qualification allowance, it did in fact recognise that there was a need for an alternative allowance based on holding additional qualifications and that was comment on paragraph 274 where the Commission states that:

PN325

We agree with the HACs submission that the Association's claim in respect of qualifications allowance as it is framed is industrially unsound, especially because there is no relationship between the employers' needs, the qualification gained and the skill and responsibility exercised by the nurse holding the qualification.

PN326

And they went on to reject that and then went on to also say at paragraphs 137 and 138, where it states:

PN327

In our view, the conditions of eligibility for the allowance also serves to justify the introduction of the allowance. These conditions require not only the possession of a relevantly defined qualification, but also that the credential be one which is accepted by the employer to be directly relevant to the competency and skills used by the employee in the duties of the position.

PN328

And in terms of arriving at its decision, at 138 the Commission states that:

PN329

We note the introduction of the three tiered qualifications allowance into the Nurses Victorian Health Services Award 1992 through an arbitrated recommendation about the content of the agreement.

PN330

What I am not quite sure about is whether they might have misunderstood that as to whether it was a reference to the Blair decision, Commissioner -

PN331

through an arbitrated recommendation about the content of the agreement. Industrial instruments in Western Australia, South Australia and Tasmania also provide for a form of qualifications allowance ...(reads)... a degree of relationship of that kind has been asserted in this case and we accept that such a relationship could be demonstrated in particular circumstances.

PN332

So what we are saying here is that although the New South Wales case came to a different outcome in respect of its decision about higher qualifications, albeit agreeing to insert a different provision, we would ask the Commission in relation to this matter to be mindful of the references at paragraphs 138 where the Commission took note of the Victorian decision and I would suspect that is in reference to Commissioner Blair's decision rather than the Health Services Award and similarly in relation to the decision in Tasmania where the Tasmanian nurses also have the same entitlement to the qualifications allowance as currently described under the Victorian public sector NECA provisions.

PN333

The contents of that particular allowance in relation to the New South Wales case was subsequently outlined in that decision which I have also attached to accompany the Industrial Relations Bulletin in the Industrial Relations Commission New South Wales decision number 326 of 2004. Now, the New South Wales case essentially relied on the Queensland case to form its decision and once again, although the New South Wales case has adopted the Queensland version of the higher qualifications allowance, what we are trying to demonstrate here, Commissioner, is that the Commission in a general sense, whether it be in New South Wales or Queensland has actually recognised that there are or have been significant changes to the work value of the nurses who are now entitled to claim the benefit of those allowances and actually have moved to have those or decided to have those provisions inserted in those relevant awards.

PN334

So it is within the power of the Commission in this matter to consider similar outcomes in terms of having it incorporated into the award and if I can also draw your attention to the series of extracts that are headed with the EBA, the Mooroobool Shire Council Enterprise Agreement Number 3 2001. Contained in that are extracts from two other enterprise agreements in Victoria. What these highlight is that these particular councils, shires, have shown progressive attitudes towards recognising that nurses should have their qualifications recognised as stand alone higher qualifications payments and in relation to the Mooroobool Shire, that can be found, reference to the qualifications allowances can be found on the third page in where it outlines the payment as such.

PN335

Similarly in relation to the Wyndham City Council Enterprise Agreement 2002, reference to a qualifications allowance can be found at clause 4 on the following page. That is an amount currently at $20 per week and in relation to the Whittlesea City Council Enterprise Agreement from the decision of Senior Deputy President Kaufman, on that last page there is a reference at clause 14 of a qualifications allowance and it goes on to talk about the actual amount of that allowance that is to be paid.

PN336

Now, what we say in relation to the relevance of these particular clauses is that out of some 70 or 78 local government employers in Victoria and out of the EBA negotiations over a period of time since 2000 and 2001, they are the only councils that have shown a progressive attitude towards recognising the status of that allowance. They are the only councils that actually are prepared to stand up and actually acknowledge the recognition of at least saying that there ought to be a qualifications allowance.

PN337

What it doesn't do, however, is recognise the parity issue in relation to the equivalent qualifications allowances that exist in the rest of the State under the public sector and private sector and aged care facilities where the qualifications allowance entitlement, the higher qualifications allowance entitlement is based on the formula or the clause as outlined in the Blair decision of August 2000, Commissioner. Now, the references I made earlier, just several minutes ago, about the higher quals being applicable in the public sector nurses in Tasmania and South Australia and Western Australia were noted within that New South Wales case that I have just alluded to.

PN338

I don't actually have the relevant documentation in support of that, but I would rely upon the Industrial Relations Commission of New South Wales Industrial Report as a means of supporting that those qualifications are paid. It is also worth noting that in relation to other occupational groups that are employed by local government, higher qualifications allowances already exist as award based conditions and, for instance, as I alluded to earlier, registered division 2 nurses employed by a local government authority who work in aged care facilities operated by the council are entitled to receive an additional payment for higher qualifications and I outlined that before in respect to clause 61.9.1 of the Nurses Victorian Health Services Award 2000 where the division 2 nurse is entitled to the benefit of that allowance.

PN339

Now, a number of councils do operate aged care facilities, albeit they might be hostels, but they are essentially an aged care facility and they are often facilities which employ division 2 nurses and where those facilities are respondent to the award, that is the Nurses Health Services Award 2000, then that division 2 nurse is entitled to the benefit of that higher qualification payment, so in our view, it supports the notion that where maternal and child health nurses are in possession of a higher qualification based on the post graduate higher qualification, then they ought to be remunerated in a similar way based on the recognition of that higher qualification that they have attained.

PN340

Similarly, in relation to those hostel facilities, where those hostels or aged care facilities employ registered psychologists or dietitians or physiotherapists to work in conjunction with health professionals, they, too, are also entitled to claim higher qualifications allowances, so the argument that the employers use against the ANF to say that it is not a sound claim is in effect a contradiction in our view because clearly they are already recognising the other health professionals who are employed in these aged care facilities are entitled to be remunerated with those higher qualifications allowances, so it is not inconsistent from our perspective to say that should this award be varied, that is the Nurses Local Government Award be varied to have those provisions inserted, it is not inconsistent to have similar outcomes.

PN341

It is also relevant to illustrate that in relation to that Blair decision, particularly in relation to Victorian nurses, the realignment to obtaining the entitlement to higher qualification payments was awarded in 2000 by the Commission on the basis of recognising that there had been changes in the clinical work value of these nurses. The recognition of those clinical standards were highlighted in a report of the Department of Human Services nurses recruitment and retention committee in May 2001 and that is that document in your folder titled nurse recruitment and retention committee.

PN342

The relevant considerations of those issues were outlined in section 6.2.3, titled qualifications allowance which is at page 95 of that document and through to 6.2.3.1 where it says that the qualifications allowances at 6.2.3.1 are paid to nurses who have completed a post graduate qualification relevant to the area of clinical practice and is viewed by the ANF as a strategy that will keep qualified experienced nurses at the bedside. The arguments are based on the history of the qualifications allowance for nurses in Victoria, parity with other professions and the cost of post graduate education.

PN343

Now, they are all issues that are pertinent to this particular case, this claim in relation to the clinical practice, the attraction and retention strategies and also the issue of wage parity of other health professionals. Now, although those reference points were essentially based on the claims made by the ANF at the time, they were made prior to the Blair decision of August 2000 and essentially these are documents that were put together by the Government and were used in those proceedings and in summing up the submissions of those relevant parties, the Commission took into consideration the contents of these particular documents.

PN344

As much as this is only a reference to the case for the higher qualifications allowances, there were other extensive issues outlined in that nurse recruitment and retention committee that were in effect used and supported by the parties at the outcome of the Blair decision and talk about some of the references that were alluded to in the nurse recruitment and retention committee as I briefly outlined in relation to attraction and retention issues and costs associated with gaining the clinical experience and qualifications and advise the Commission that although the move from the hospital based nurse training to tertiary qualifications was a gradual process from the mid-1980s to the early 90s, education costs for tertiary studies was free until 1989.

PN345

Since the introduction of the fees of approximately $800 a year at that time, the costs of obtaining an under graduate and post graduate qualification in maternal and child health nursing have escalated upwards to the current costs of approximately $26,000 minimum for a full fee paying student. That doesn't take into consideration the on-costs associated with the post graduate qualifications, Commissioner. This figure can vary depending on the tertiary institutions and HECS paying students will pay less, but the trend as we understand in reserving HECS places for students is decreasing for maternal and child health nurses.

PN346

The ANF has also been advised that in some institutions such as Latrobe University, they are intending to remove the HECS places from their midwifery courses and increasing their fees up to $10,000 for the midwifery course and there is a similar trend in relation to RMIT, who run post graduate courses in maternal and child health nurses with the trend towards reducing the number of HECS places and increasing their fee structure to over $12,000, the total minimum course cost to become qualified as a maternal and child health nurse is expected to be around 34,000 to 35,000 by 2005/2006.

PN347

That is the under graduate degree and the two post graduate degrees meaning the triple certificate that we referred to earlier. Those fees don't take into consideration the additional costs, the on-costs associated with the student loans, other student union fees, distant travelling for rural nurses, texts and materials and in addition, the majority of those students enrolling in maternal and child health courses often give up their full time nursing positions and work part-time on account of the onerous work load of the course.

PN348

Factoring those costs means that the nurse is sacrificing up to 50 per cent of their annual earning capacity to obtain those qualifications. Now, that has a direct bearing on the attraction and retention of maternal and child health nurses and it is an issue that is becoming apparent within the Department of Human Services and we would say also that local government employers are now coming to recognise that they are having real difficulties in terms of attracting maternal and child health nurses to their councils and the points that I have just outlined are relevant to part of that argument.

PN349

In the Commission proceedings concerning the Australian Nursing Federation Vic branch section 111AA public sector decision, the ANF successfully demonstrated that there was an acute shortage of qualified registered nurses throughout the State of Victoria. Whilst the total shortage of the EFT nurses was significantly larger than could ever be demonstrated against the maternal and child health nurses working in local government, there is evidence that there is an acknowledged shortage of qualified maternal and child health nurses throughout Victoria.

PN350

In a recent maternal and child health nurse workforce assessment project conducted on behalf of the Department of Human Services, the researchers of the project concluded that there is a current shortage of maternal and child health nurses in Victoria and that these shortages are projected to remain for the next eight years. The report titled maternal and child health service nursing workforce assessment project, January 2004, revealed that the current total EFT of maternal and child health nurses employed in local government throughout Victoria is approximately 442.

PN351

They were based on 2001/2002 assessments. Based on assessing this total EFT against the demands for a balanced labour force, the report revealed that there is a 13.2 per cent shortfall of maternal and child health nurses in Victoria and in terms of the projected analysis of those trends, it is predicted that in a further projected analysis of the current trends and labour demands, the report illustrates that by 2012, the shortfall of qualified maternal and child health nurses will increase to a total of 42 per cent in Victoria.

PN352

Now, those issues that I have just referred to are consistent with the issues associated with the attraction and retention arguments in the nurses public sector case that was determined by Commissioner Blair, as much as I said a minute ago that the total number of nurses in Victoria in the public sector is significantly greater than the maternal and child health nurses, in terms of the analogy about the shortages of nurses, there were similar shortages of nurses in Victoria in that matter and part of the attraction and retention strategies that were accepted by the Commission at that time was to award the higher qualifications payments.

PN353

Now, the reference points in that workforce assessment can be revealed on page 5 of that document in the second paragraph where it starts a gap analysis was then conducted and it goes on to talk about the total number of EFT and the projected assessment of the long-term issues and over the next page is the table illustrating those figures, Commissioner. Now, that report also attempts to extrapolate that by applying the Government's attraction and retention strategies that are outlined in that documentation that were supposedly designed to encourage maternal and child health nurses back into the workforce.

PN354

The deficit in the total number of maternal and child health nurses working in local government will be reduced to a static level. Now, what the report fails to address, however, is the simple fact that maternal and child health nurses are just not prepared to work in local government or expend huge financial resources and personal commitment in attaining the appropriate maternal and child health post graduate qualifications, in terms of the current number of graduates that are entering into the course, when they can earn higher rates of pay without undertaking the post graduate qualifications whilst working in the public and private sector.

PN355

In addition to the maternal and child health nurse who has obtained post graduate nursing qualifications and can demonstrate that - she or he can demonstrate that they are applying the clinical component derived from that qualification, they are entitled to that higher qualifications allowance which is currently paid between $31 and $58 per week. That is outlined in my earlier exhibit in relation to the nurses public sector rates of pay based on the 1 October 2004 rates.

PN356

Now, these issues that I have outlined in relation to the course costs are also compounded at least by two other factors. The first is in relation to the lack of Government funding in relation to the vacancies for midwives and the tertiary institutions who require prospective maternal and child health nurses to have at least three years post graduate experience as a midwife prior to gaining entry into the course. In general, graduate midwives are expected to maintain their clinical competencies upon graduation as a means of ensuring that the skills are consolidated immediately after graduation.

PN357

In the absence of not having placements within the public sector and limited opportunities in the private sector, it is understandable in terms of our submissions that the nurses will start to baulk at enrolling into these post graduate studies that require an outlay of a further $24,000 over and above what they have already paid for their education without any reasonable prospects that they can obtain immediate employment in these professions.

PN358

What we also understand is that in relation to the new graduates, Commissioner, that the difficulties that councils are facing in relation to the new graduates is that whilst they have provisions for relievers, maternal and child health relievers, it is extremely difficult for the councils to have a dedicated group of relievers to assist backing up the maternal and child health services in relation to other nurses who are taking various forms of leave and the like, particularly if they are not faced with any - particularly when they are not guaranteed of any reasonable prospect of ongoing employment after they have been newly qualified as a maternal and child health nurse.

PN359

The second factor is the ageing of the maternal and child health nurses in the workforce. Based on the statistical information, the Australian Nursing Federation understands that of all total maternal and child health nurses employed in Victoria, only 15.5 per cent of the total nurses are aged under 40 and only 0.3 per cent under the age of 25 with the balance being aged between 41 to 65 years and that is a figure that was commented on in relation to the document titled surviving the contract state, a report on the Victorian maternal and child health service in a decade of change and the example that I have illustrated can be found on the third page in where it is a sample of the Victorian maternal and child health nurses, as much as it was in 1999, I understand that the authors of this document have revisited those issues in a more recent set of articles that conclude the same view in terms of the current developments of the demographic profile of maternal and child health nurses.

PN360

We say that in relation to these figures, it is an illustration that there is an ageing maternal and child health workforce which is being eroded by way of the failure of the relevant government and local government authorities recognising that there is a need to reconsider their attraction and retention strategies and we say also that the symptoms of the cause of those issues are linked to the quantum of the course costs that I have outlined, the lack of opportunity obtain relevant skills experience prior to gaining entry into the maternal and child health courses, the increased clinical work demands on maternal and child health nurses, combined with low rates of pay and the lower standards of working conditions compared to the better wages and conditions in the public and private sector which we say link to the issues concerning the work value components that have been impacting on maternal and child health nurses as they have done in relation to other nurses working in Victoria.

PN361

Now, I have got a couple of media extracts. One is titled Media Monitors and the other one is titled Child Health Nurses in Short Supply. The first article makes some references to the points that I have just briefly outlined in relation to the changes that have been affecting maternal and child health services over the last 15 years or so and at the bottom of the first paragraph in that first column, there is a reference there to the Kennett Government regime in relation to the introduction of competitive tendering and the open door policy that was replaced with an appointment system, etcetera.

PN362

Whilst some of those were welcomed, others argued that it eroded the access to the services widely regarded as the best of its kind in the world. Now, we say that the impact of those changes are still being felt by maternal and child health nurses to this present day in relation to the erosion of conditions that maternal and child health nurses work within and obviously in our view, the impact of the developments in relation to the clinical standards and new strategies that have been introduced over the last 15 years have had an impact in relation to these issues. The article goes on to make references in the second column that the maternal and child health service is regarded as the cornerstone of the family services. So said Dorothy Scott, the head of the social work department at Melbourne University. It then goes on to say in the article that:

PN363

Additional activities may include expansion of group programs to meet the needs of families in addition to first time mothers.

PN364

That in our view is an example of the Municipal Association of Victoria recognising that there are expanded activities that we say are linked to the work value arguments that we will be also relying on in this application, Commissioner. As I have also indicated in earlier submissions, references to the anomalies in wage disparity amongst maternal and child health nurses in that third column across, half way down it makes a reference to Dorothy Scott who I referred to earlier as saying that the quality of maternal and child health centres varies, with poorer areas often under resourced and Dr Scott believes the service should be available when people need it, not just when they have an appointment and supported also by Fiona Stanley, the chief executive of the Australian Research Alliance for Children and Youth who said that:

PN365

Maternal and child health services is the most important and most effective of all programs and services for supporting families. They are absolutely pivotal.

PN366

And that was also supported by the professor of community child health nursing, Gay Edgecombe from Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, on the other side of that page where she makes the relevant point that:

PN367

The maternal and child health services are a very, very special service in Victoria.

PN368

Now, the second extract, child health nurses in short supply, talks about some of the attraction and retention issues again and one of the maternal and child health co-ordinators who was interviewed for that article, Liz Mann, states in the second column that:

PN369

We are experiencing a significant shortage of maternal and child health nurses at present and one reason for this is the lack of shift work.

PN370

And Ms Mann goes on to say that:

PN371

Qualified maternal and child health nurses now have more options, including working in mother and baby units in hospitals where shift work is available. If they work weekends and evening shifts, they get penalties and the qualifications allowance.

PN372

And she went on to talk about some of the strategies associated with Government scholarships which are outlined below that statement I have just read out as being sponsorships worth $3500, but what she is saying is that whilst they are not a new phenomenon, the work of the maternal and child health nurse in terms of the modern maternal and child health nurse has changed dramatically since the days when the, as I quote, the sister dictated the rigid rules and feeding and sleeping schedules to nervous new mothers and she went on to say that:

PN373

These days, maternal and child health nurses are various ages and play a key role in listening to and supporting the families as well as providing assessments at key development stages for early diagnosis, prevention intervention for children from birth to six years of age at no cost to families.

PN374

And most of the strategies that she is referring to there have originated in the post professional nurses case of the 90s, early 90s. As much as she was saying that the scholarships are a good idea, the ANF maintains that they don't go far enough in terms of dealing with the appropriate attraction and retention strategies and that is clearly evident in relation to the earlier point I made about the shortfall and the projected shortfall of maternal and child health nurses in Victoria.

PN375

Just to illustrate some of the points that I have referred to earlier about the disparity in wage rates, you have in front of you a table of maternal and child health rates of pay at September 2004. Now, I acknowledge that they are not actually the relevant extracts from the actual enterprise agreements. If the Commission requires me to provide the necessary evidence in support of those rates of pay, I am happy to do that, but essentially those rates of pay have been extracted from those particular enterprise agreements to illustrate the significant disparity between the rates of pay at the top end as compared to the lower end. As I indicated earlier, in some cases that exceeds 20 per cent between the highest and lowest rate of pay. At this point, Commissioner, I would like to bring in one of two witnesses to support some of the contentions that we have outlined in our submission.

PN376

THE COMMISSIONER: Which witness were you seeking?

PN377

MR MEGENNIS: Ms Akers, please.

PN378

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wilson, is that a suitable course of action?

PN379

MR WILSON: Yes, I have no objection, Commissioner.

PN380

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Good afternoon. You have had a long wait. I am sorry about that.

<DEBORAH AKERS, SWORN [2.55pm]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MEGENNIS

PN381

MR MEGENNIS: Thank you, Deborah. I would like to confirm a couple of points before we go into the statement itself. Can I ask you to confirm that this was a statement prepared by yourself?---Yes, it was.

PN382

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have a copy of it?---Not in front of me. I do have a copy.

PN383

MR MEGENNIS: For the record, could you confirm that this was a statement prepared by yourself?---Yes, it was.

PN384

And your address is still (address supplied)?---Yes, it is.

PN385

And you are a registered nurse qualified also in midwifery and maternal and child health?---Yes.

PN386

And are also still currently employed as a co-ordinator of child and family health at Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology?---Yes, I am.

PN387

I would like to take you to some of the points that were outlined in your statement, perhaps to give the Commission an opportunity to fully understand the points that you have made in more expansive detail. In relation to point 2 in respect of the entry requirements, are you able to advise the Commission if the entrance into the maternal and child health course is enhanced by the nurse possessing those additional qualifications and, if so, why?---Many of the nurses come to me at a very senior level in terms of experience and at RMIT and I can only really speak for the RMIT entry requirements we do grant them some exemptions for having those extra roles. For example with lactation consultancy and family planning, they are granted some exemptions for those because it is seen as a value added service. Many of the local government areas, in fact, and certainly the private hospitals have breastfeeding clinics and lactation consultancy clinics on their staff and certainly it is seen as an added bonus by employers if those people are lactation consultants, I believe, and it just enhances the service, so we acknowledge that they have got those qualifications and do allow them some minor exemptions in the course.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

PN388

In terms of the consideration of those additional qualifications and skills, are they seen to be skills that have grown out of any of the changes in maternal and child health services in the last 15 years?---The changes that have affected maternal and child health have necessitated positions like lactation consultancy. Because of the changing client base and therefore the changing work value of the maternal and child health, we do do a lot more breastfeeding advice and a lot earlier. The immunisation, yes, some local government areas are expecting their nurses to perform opportunistic and regular immunisation service so, yes, that has grown in the last few years and the infant mental health and counselling role is a new and emerging field impacting on maternal and child health and it is recognised by the Melbourne University offering a masters degree in infant and parent mental health, recognising the fact that there is a growing field in that area and many maternal and child health nurses have taken those things on board, some of it to do with the client base changing, the more complex issues that we are dealing with and certainly as extra education and extra needs for the people that they are dealing with.

PN389

So you made the point in relation to the masters level and that is I think outlined in points 4 and 5. Is that part of the reasons why the course is structured towards the masters level?---At RMIT, it became part of the masters level articulation in 2001 and the expectation is that though at the Nurses Board of Victoria you only need to have a graduate diploma to become a maternal and child health nurse, the expectation very much, because of the fact that we work in a senior very specialist and almost as sole practitioner capacity, that you will then go on to do more education and that you will articulate to a masters. At Latrobe, the system in terms of that is exactly the same in terms that the students come in and they can be enrolled directly into the masters, but there is an expectation, even for graduate diploma students, that they will further their studies. That is further enhanced by the fact that we are becoming - that there has been an increase in the research requirements and evidence based practice is becoming the norm now, so the masters students can go on and do masters by research or they can do it by course work. We have two forms of that, but it is an acceptance that the workforce is asking for evidence based practice as well as the fact that the university is expecting us to go further.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

PN390

In point 6 you advise that maternal and child health students are now required to have at least three years' midwifery experience. Is that correct and, if so, why is it that it is the three years' experience requirement?---It is an expectation and that came in in the mid 90s as well at RMIT and I have put there in the 1990 handbook for Phillip Institute which predates RMIT it was one year and there is now an expectation amongst the workforce that again because of the client body that we are dealing with, again because of the skills necessary to perform our duties, that you need to be a fairly experienced person, so since about '96 I think was the first reference to the three year requirement for midwifery, so the students now have done general nursing, some experience, midwifery and then they must have three years so that they are fairly experienced before they come to the maternal and child health role and that is an acceptance also of the fact that clients are discharged earlier from hospital and so that we need to really have good grounding in our midwifery skills as well as our general nursing skills to perform this function.

PN391

THE COMMISSIONER: You have mentioned, Ms Akers, a couple of times change in the client base?---Yes.

PN392

And is part of that what you just alluded to then and that is your clients being discharged earlier, is that part of it and what are the other things you had in mind when you have said a couple of times now changes in the client base?---I did, and they are in fact in our other witness statement, really, but we kind of crossed streams in this area.

PN393

Sorry, I have got you at the moment?---That is okay.

PN394

You can pass if you like to Ms Williams?---No, that is okay. They are being discharged earlier and we do have the statistics to support that from the peri-natal stats. People are being discharged much earlier than they were. Now, for one example classically is breastfeeding which physiologically take a few days to establish.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

PN395

Yes, I have read all of that in the statement. The gentlemen in the room might blush. Just teasing, gentlemen?---15 years ago when a large percentage of women stayed six or more days, the physiological requirements for breastfeeding - - -

PN396

Sorry, is that the only change that you had in mind when you have been using the phrase changes in the client - - -?---No, I also had age of the mothers in mind.

PN397

As in?---The median age of the mothers has gone up from 28 to 30 plus. We also have a much larger percentage of mothers over the age of 35 which is considered a benchmark for people becoming at risk. Those mothers typically have delivered in a private hospital which now the caesarean rate for is running at 50 per cent, so there are significant demographic features about the mothers with whom we are dealing and we are dealing with them at an earlier stage because you couple that early discharge, we are dealing with more complex medical issues as well which is why we have accepted that at RMIT, at least, and have a three-year midwifery requirement because we want them to have a fairly good grounding before they hit our course.

PN398

Thank you.

PN399

MR MEGENNIS: In relation to the academic - the application of the academic components of the course, would you consider or would you be able to advise the Commission whether in fact the academic application of undertaking that course has changed to any great degree in the last 15 years or so and, if so, are you able to describe the reasons why?---It has changed in terms of the first is the articulation into the masters. The second is that in 1990 it was part of a generic graduate diploma in community health nursing. It wasn't a stand alone program. You took certain subjects which then articulated you into that. Academically, it has become more highly specialised. The expectation is that now everybody will do management as a core subject. Everyone will do advanced communication and counselling skills as a core subject. This is at RMIT and that health promotion has been included as a

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

formal part of the education since 1996 as well. That is leaving the clinical stuff aside, the fact that there is an acceptance that these are advanced level skills that we need to have to perform our role and so that and then articulating them onto the masters is what the university sought to do and accepted by the Nurses Board.

PN400

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Megennis, before you ask your next question, I would appreciate it, we don't stick to the rules of evidence, really, pedantically here, but I think some of your questions have been slightly leading. Is that a polite way to put it? Mr Wilson has been extremely patient.

PN401

MR MEGENNIS: Did he raise his eyebrows?

PN402

THE COMMISSIONER: Actually, there has been two out of the three of us, two sets of eyebrows out of the three have gone up, I must admit, so if you wouldn't mind bearing that in mind because Mr Wilson has been very patient.

PN403

MR WILSON: Commissioner, can I just say I was actually going to make an objection at the next - if it was to happen again, I thought it had gone far enough.

PN404

THE COMMISSIONER: I must have read your mind. I figured there might be a repeat performance, so I thought I might get in before it happened.

PN405

MR MEGENNIS: Well, I anticipate that I won't deliberately lead the witness, Commissioner. There were some relevant questions which I was about to ask, but I guess I will stand corrected if you claim that I am leading the witness.

PN406

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, look, I am happy to leave it to Mr Wilson to object, but I was actually trying to - this case is being run in a co-operative manner, a constructive manner between the parties and if one party has to get up and object, it tends to change the chemical soup a bit, however nicely that is done, so I was just trying to avoid putting Mr Wilson in that position.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

PN407

MR MEGENNIS: In relation to point 11, can you advise the Commission in terms of the clinical placement during the course, the maternal and child health nurses' course, are you able to describe the clinical aspects that would be regarded as important for those undertaking the clinical placement?---Again I will speak for RMIT. I know that Latrobe functions differently in the clinical sphere, not in terms of the students not being paid, but they do function in that they have a slightly different focus in the placement. The clinical placements in maternal and child health are 210 hours in total of the year. Of that, at RMIT 70 of those hours are done in a variety of settings, including Queen Elizabeth, the 24-hour line, child care centres and then 140 hours are done in a maternal and child health centre which equates to four 35 hour weeks effectively and the students must gain a pass in those clinical areas to then be able to pass that subject. It has changed slightly in 15 years in that the mix of the hours has changed, but not the amount of the hours, but still the placements are done at maternal and child health centres. Maternal and child health nurses who take on students do so of their own free will. We approach the municipalities and ask them, but it is up to the individual nurse whether she takes them on, but she does so as a mentor. The clinical placement assessment is quite an involved process. If I compare when I did the course some years ago and now, it was a four-page document when I did the course. Now there is a 14-page document that requires quite a deal of - I actually go out and educate the councils about how to assess the students and then there is a self assessment tool as well, so there is 30 pages of assessment as opposed to four, as there were some years ago and it is an involved form of assessment which encompasses many facets of work, including legal issues and research issues and practice issues and it is a very involved document, so there is quite a deal of work in just assessing the students and they do actually have to spend four weeks in a centre and they do do it in their own - they are not paid. Unlike some of the graduate certificate people will get paid a funded place, our students actually have to do this in their own time and I am really at the behest of the workforce who very kindly take on the students in that role.

[3.12pm]

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

PN408

You have mentioned that the assessment tools or the documentation associated with the assessment has changed from something like a 14-page to a 30-page document?---Four pages to 30 pages of assessment and the new assessment documents reflect the changing - well, things like the otoscope and stethoscope which are clinical tools that are now used that weren't used once upon a time. They have been introduced since '96. These are medical tools that we are now expected to use, things like that and things like the fact that as I was alluding to the masters subject, there is actually something in our assessment tool that talks about doing research, so the students is constantly reminded that she is to be - or he, we won't have any men at the moment, unfortunately, that they are to be on the look-out for areas in which research could be done and they are also supposed to be using their educational knowledge of research and evidence base to feed back to the workforce about what they might know as well, so, yes, it is a much more comprehensive assessment.

PN409

To any extent, has the mentoring of the maternal and child health nurse changed in the last 10 or 15 years?---In terms of what I as an educator would expect them to be doing for my students, I think so. If I think back to when I was a student, it seemed to be a simpler process. I turned up and I performed assessments and it was fine. Now I am expecting all of this documentation to be filled in, scaled on the BONDI scale and then comments written and there is much more - I guess because I get audited by the university as well, I need to be much more on top of the assessment format and so it is a bit more intense. The requirement is that the nurse needs to spend a lot more time doing the formal assessment part and mentoring that student into the workforce. Some of my students, working for the MAVs workforce project, I have already started to survey some of the graduates that have finished mid-year and one of them said that she found that the mentoring system was not adequate, so she is actually not going to go into the workforce because of some of the issues and she found that the mentoring wasn't adequate, so it is difficult.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

PN410

You have also said in your statement that was an appointment of the clinical chair of community health. What was the relevance of that appointment?---Because I wasn't in the field, I actually consulted my predecessor on this one because she was around when the appointment was being made. The feeling was that with the loss of the maternal and child health advisers at the time, advisers that Mr Megennis talked about this morning and the fact that we were looking to be in a much more structured way that our service was being taken into the healthy futures program and taken into a different model and the fact that we were looking at evidence based practice, as was every other field of nursing, that we needed to appoint someone like this, so a tender went out and RMIT was successful and Professor Edgecombe was appointed and she has done lots and lots of research into various areas of maternal and child health since she was appointed in '94.

PN411

So I am not quite sure whether I picked up your response in relation to what is the relevance in relation to her appointment and the maternal and child health services in Victoria?---Well, the relevance was that they accepted that we needed to be more structured, that early years is a vital area of health, that we need to look at the early years as a predictor for long-term health outcomes and also the fact that we needed to have - her focus is very much around evidence base and research into all the areas of early years and so there was an acceptance that we needed someone to be our voice and to do that for us at DHS, so it was a joint appointment.

PN412

You have outlined a number of dot points in section 12. Could you advise the Commission of the relevance of each of those dot points in terms of maternal and child health nursing?---The child health report, I am not sure how familiar you are with that. Do you want me to go through any of them? You are looking like please don't do them all.

PN413

THE COMMISSIONER: I was actually going to ask Mr Wilson a question. Each of the items in the dots points, Mr Wilson, are they disputed in terms of factual matters?

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

PN414

MR WILSON: Commissioner, they are not disputed in terms of programs, existence of programs. I suppose what may be disputed is the relevance or how councils as employers would require them to be applied or not, but the factual existence of them as such is not disputed.

PN415

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. I think you do need to answer Mr Megennis's question, but probably there is no need to go into with each of them a long explanation necessarily of what they are, because that is not contested. It is accepted that they factually exist. Does that help?---Yes.

PN416

Thank you?---There are a couple that I will just highlight. One of them would be the child health record which prior to 1992 was a very small document which basically recorded a child's health and weight and measurements. Since then, we have had the yellow child health record which is about to have its fourth reprint and each time they bring that out, there seems to be more modifications. One of the major changes was the introduction of the MIST test which is further down that list and the use of the otoscope and stethoscope which is part of that, so I guess probably one of the biggest changes is that child health record which we are required to complete as part of the healthy futures program. The preschool assessment was another major change in that there were medical officers in kindergartens, or visited kindergartens prior to the early 1990s who did a preschool assessment. One of the major changes was - there were maternal and child health nurses functioning in this capacity. However, with the healthy futures program, one of the changes was that those medical officers were phased out and that the preschool assessment shifted to a three and a half year old assessment and there was an educational package rolled out in 1993 by RMIT and a team of nurses to up-skill the nurses again to make it a formal part of our program, then in '97, added to that three and a half year old became the MIST test, the Melbourne initial screening which is developed by Latrobe. It was vision screening, so that became an inaugural part and at the same time, the use of the otoscope and stethoscope which were previously used by the kindergarten medical officers became part of our work. The others, the positive parenting, language strategies being introduced this year, positive parenting is one of a number of things like the health promotion programs that we run, the dental health promotion program which is a new one. Every time one of these comes out, they are associated with some form of

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

educational requirement that the nurse will attend and pick up that set of skills. Probably one of the big interesting ones is the filling the gap which is now up to - it was based on a north and western region health survey in the 90s and we are just now currently rolling out version five of that, with yet more tip sheets and they reflect some of the National Health and Medical Research changes to the dietary requirements that came out in November 2003, so every one of those things has associated with it, each has education and they are all often reflected in the child health record. As I said, it is about to have its fourth reprint and it is an expectation that maternal and child health nurses will not only up-skill themselves, but we will also carry out, deliver these programs as they are provided to us.

PN417

MR MEGENNIS: So in relation to those initiatives and strategies that have been referred to in your statement, how do they impact on nurses in terms of their clinical work loads?---In terms of clinical work loads, if you are talking about the assessments, a preschool assessment necessitates often a slightly longer visit than what we might be allowing for to see other children. In terms of having to set up the skill base to use the tools and to keep ourselves updated, it requires a commitment on our part. The otoscope and stethoscope has been part of the educational program at RMIT since 1996 when it was put into the child health record, but for nurses who have trained before that and even for nurses who have trained since then, to keep themselves up-skilled, they must continually spend time updating and educating themselves and it adds more into the assessment that we do at the time when we see the child and obviously it takes longer because we are adding more things. The dental health promotion package, it was provided this year. It now behoves on us to start really focusing on dental health promotion in terms of young children. There was some starting figures about very high percentages of children with dental caries from which that stemmed. Every time one of these comes out, as I said, they require us to be constantly aware that this has been - that we are now mandated, we are mandated to report, yes, all nurses are mandated to report, but we are very much working on our own here and so a lot of these things take time. They take time to learn to use the resource package and then they take time to administer it, because in that appointment with that family, you may be giving them a language strategy, a positive parenting tip sheet on that aged child and they may have another child that is requiring some toddler advice and they may have some other things and you have got to be mindful of all of the documents that you need to give them, the kidsafe document for the appropriate age and you have got to educate the whole family, so it means that you are now administering education on several different levels throughout the course of your appointment with them.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XN MR MEGENNIS

PN418

So in relation to those clinical standards that are currently being used by maternal and child health nurses - - -?---Do you mean the program standards?

PN419

Yes, that have been outlined here, are they less or more complex in relation to the application of those standards?---Prior to 1994, we didn't have program standards and they were then introduced and they are just currently being redrafted again and they are being redrafted to reflect some of these clinical areas, but also to reflect the client base and the fact that we are dealing with more complex issues and we are having to use these extra skills on top of that with the complex issues, so the program standards certainly are reflective of these kinds of initiatives.

PN420

Commissioner, I have no further questions.

PN421

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Megennis. Mr Wilson.

PN422

MR WILSON: Yes, thank you, Commissioner.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON [3.26pm]

PN423

MR WILSON: Ms Akers, I see in the first paragraph of your statement you say that in addition to your role at the RMIT, you are employed as an MCH nurse at Moonee Valley. That is correct?---On a casual basis, yes.

PN424

On a casual basis?---Yes, yes. I was with Moonee Valley until I joined RMIT full-time this year.

PN425

So what would your experience at Moonee Valley be, then?---I had been there since 1997.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XXN MR WILSON

PN426

And now you are a casual?---Very much casual, yes.

PN427

So what does that entail?---I work probably once every six months or so. RMIT have a policy of being allowed to perform outside paid work, as long as there is no conflict of interest and part of my employment there is that I will stay current and up to date with the workforce issues.

PN428

In paragraph 2 you tell us that maternal and child health nurses are sole practitioners. Can you tell me what sole practitioners means?---In this sense, I mean that for the most part, maternal and child health nurses work in a maternal and child health centre and make clinical judgments on the children and the parents that they are seeing on their own in their day to day work so that whilst they may be part of the larger council team, they are, in fact, often working on their own and when I am explaining it to the students I liken it to going to work in a hospital setting where you have a team working with you, whereas when you are with maternal and child health, for the most part you are working by yourself out in the community which is a very different focus from what previously we have been used to, most of us.

PN429

Is that sole practitioner aspect changing in any way?---Some municipalities have a dual nurse - ISIS Primary Care which really is not part of this case, they are in the public sector, but they do have dual nurse centres. There is also a pilot nurse practitioner project going on in one of the rural areas, but the reality is that as I understand it, most people will work by themselves.

PN430

Are you aware of any ANF claim in enterprise bargaining negotiations that by and large requires two people or some people not to work alone?---No, I am not.

PN431

In terms of the additional qualifications that you refer to in paragraph 2 and these were talked about by Mr Megennis, women's health, family planning, lactation consultancy, etcetera, the attainment or the having of those additional qualifications, is that necessary to perform the role of a maternal and child health nurse? I think you said before it added value, but my question is is it necessary?---To become registered or to perform the role - - -

**** DEBORAH AKERS XXN MR WILSON

PN432

Well, start with to become registered?---Yes, to become registered - I need to rephrase it a bit in terms of the women's - some of these aspects are included in the course work, but - - -

PN433

No, my question is - - -?---- - - but the extra qualifications - - -

PN434

- - - is it necessary to have those?---No, it is not necessary to have those.

PN435

Okay?---Is it- - -

PN436

Well, I don't want to go any further with that?---Okay, that is okay.

PN437

Would you have any knowledge how it would be any different to employees in other professions within an industry of local government as to whether or not they had additional qualifications? Do you have any knowledge of additional qualifications that other professions in local government may have?---No, I don't.

PN438

You say in paragraph 3 that there are two universities offering courses currently?---Yes.

PN439

Is that all the universities - the only universities that offer these courses?---Yes, there are.

PN440

Only the two?---Yes, used to be Deakin, but they stopped in the mid-90s. There are only two.

PN441

Monash isn't involved at all?---No.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XXN MR WILSON

PN442

I am still a little unclear in terms of paragraph 5 where you talk about the masters program. Is the holding of a masters an actual requirement to become an MCH nurse as we speak today?---No, but a graduate diploma is.

PN443

Yes, but not a masters?---Not a masters, no.

PN444

So can you just tell me what it is that I would need to have to become a maternal and child health nurse, registered as a maternal and child health nurse?---In the State of Victoria, you would need to hold a bachelors degree in nursing. For candidates who are of an age where they would not have had university nursing education, they are still required before doing post graduate work to go to university and gain some university qualification on top of their hospital certificate, so you must be a division 1 registered general nurse with a bachelors degree. You must be a midwife and you may then enter the program to do maternal and child health nursing. Victoria has to have the dual registration before you can then go on to be a maternal and child health nurse.

PN445

Would you have any knowledge as to how many maternal and child health nurses do hold the masters qualification?---I don't have any knowledge, but I can tell you that I have had two go through this year who will come out with a masters of nursing. I believe Latrobe figures are higher because of the way their course is structured.

PN446

But two or three at your institution?---At my institution of about 20 going through.

PN447

You say in paragraph 8 that some students, those about to graduate, won't work in maternal and child health nursing because they won't be paid shift and qualification allowances which are entitlements in a public or private hospital setting. Would it be reasonable to say that the work of a maternal and child health nurse in local government doesn't require the working of shift work?---Yes, that is a reasonable statement.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XXN MR WILSON

PN448

Would it be also perhaps reasonable to say that it may be an attraction to some people not to have to work shift work?---Yes, it can seem like an attraction.

PN449

I simply know when I used to work shift work, I sure am glad I am not doing it any more.

PN450

THE COMMISSIONER: Actually, Mr Wilson - - -?---Some people like it.

PN451

I must admit I agree with you?---Some people actually like it and the feedback from some of the students is that the reality, once they got out there, was that they really actually quite like their shift work. Some people like it, so I am just feeding back what the surveys are telling me.

PN452

That is interesting.

PN453

MR WILSON: I think we could probably have an all day discussion about that by itself.

PN454

THE COMMISSIONER: Maybe the day after tomorrow.

PN455

MR WILSON: It would only be a matter of interest, Commissioner, not of necessity.

PN456

THE COMMISSIONER: I think it is interesting, I agree.

PN457

MR WILSON: I agree with you. Okay, we will perhaps move on from the digression.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XXN MR WILSON

PN458

Are you aware of the hours that are generally worked in councils by maternal and child health nurses?---I understand that most people would work less - you know, not many work full-time five days a week, as I understand it. A lot have worked four days a week.

PN459

Not so much the full-time/part-time, but the spread of hours, if you like, that the work is carried out in. Well, let me put it another way. Would you agree that the services provided by councils in the maternal and child health area are by and large Monday to Friday, nine to five?---At this point in time, yes, though there are lots who work Saturday and there is one municipality who works evenings every week.

PN460

Lots that work Saturday? What do you mean by lots?---There are increasingly municipalities who work - I started a Saturday session at Moonee Valley which now continues. I understand Wyndham works Saturday sessions and I believe from discussions I have had with the co-ordinators and other people in the field that the focus is changing from Monday to Friday to providing some Saturday sessions for people who are working parents and evening sessions.

PN461

Would you be surprised if I told you that in the area of eight councils work evenings, bearing in mind there is 79 councils in Victoria?---At this point in time, that might be right, yes.

PN462

In paragraph 9 you talk about the HECS when it was introduced and the increases in HECS over a period of time and I guess we would all be aware of the HECS payments, but are there any differences in principle or amount for HECS that is being charged for nurses compared to any other disciplines? Would you have any knowledge of that?---Simply the amounts being charged?

PN463

Well, is HECS any more onerous for nursing students than a student of any other discipline?---At an under graduate level, it is probably about the same, but if we are talking about maternal and child health nursing, then these people have now had to do three levels of education to attain this qualification.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XXN MR WILSON

PN464

But is it more onerous? Are the payments more than somebody else doing similar post graduate work? Are you aware? Do you know about that?---Not the actual monetary outlay, no.

PN465

Now, in paragraph 12 which has already been explored with you to some extent, you list a number of programs. Can you tell me, perhaps I should only ask you from your experience, perhaps, or past experience at Moonee Valley which of the programs that are listed there are required by council, Moonee Valley Council, for you to perform?---The preschool assessment, the MIST, the use of the otoscope and stethoscope, the positive parenting program was a standard program, the language strategy which has now been introduced is a standard program. Of course, the mandatory reporting, the dental health promotion, best start hadn't hit Moonee Valley, but is just a brand new one that has only been out about a month. The first time parent group resource guide is the guide to running the first parent classes. The filling the gap was essential. The blue book is necessary to have. Safe from harm I will admit to never having used at Moonee Valley. The promoting breastfeeding and the changing places was only launched last week, so all of them, apart from the ones I have just said were part of the standard service at Moonee Valley.

PN466

Part of the standard service, so there was some document that said that maternal and child health service will provide these services or these programs?---At Moonee Valley, we developed about six years ago a new parents' kit which was given to all first time parents. As part of that kit, we included many of the positive parenting documents and the kidsafe, we had varying inserts that we inserted into that and the covering letter that went with that document said that the maternal and child health nurse would be available to advise you on these various programs and samples of the programs were put into the kit. That was done as a quality improvement project and I understand that it was picked up by other municipalities, but we were certainly using all of the documents in the first time parents kit as a standard and we had service guidelines that guided at which point we would give out which documents and then there were the value added documents which came up for families with particular needs in an area.

[3.40pm]

**** DEBORAH AKERS XXN MR WILSON

PN467

Who actually determined that that was how it was going to go?---The nurses did the initial quality improvement, but management had some input as I understand it to try and standardise across the municipality because there were 14 centres and we wanted some standardisation to them.

PN468

Would you agree that that list of programs and I think you mentioned it before in your answers to a question, that the programs are in fact tools to assist maternal and child health nurses to carry out their job?---I would agree in principle that they are tools, but I think that they give - they do give us tools, but they also then behove us to deliver those programs with those tools.

PN469

And you say in your final paragraph, in the last sentence:

PN470

Many local government authorities do not support their staff attending these -

PN471

that is education programs and what have you. How are you actually aware that many local governments don't support their staff attending these?---Throughout this year - there is a quarterly DHS Saturday conference run at RMIT which has been running almost since the appointment of Professor Edgecombe. The attendance at those varies and certainly this year I have become a member of the co-ordinators' group and I have had at least five co-ordinators say to me that they - in fact, I have had more say to me that they don't agree with the Saturday conferences because they are on Saturdays, but I have actually had five of them who have said that they don't really like their staff attending them, because then their staff want things like time in lieu and many of the nurses who attend when you are talking to them will tell you that it can be a bone of contention amongst the workforce that they attend, but these are funded by DHS and there is an expectation, because the funding is there and it will continue into 2005 at least that the nurses will attend and this is where many of these packages are rolled out.

PN472

So are you actually saying that councils actively discourage their nurses from attending these conferences?---I have had it said to me by more than one co-ordinator.

**** DEBORAH AKERS XXN MR WILSON

PN473

More than one?---Yes, that if we did not have them on a Saturday morning, that they might consider letting their staff - and one in particular said to me that she told her staff not to go.

PN474

Are you aware that every council in Victoria has a staff development scheme?---I am aware that the ones that I have worked for do.

PN475

And would those staff development schemes go any way towards overcoming these sort of perceived problems, i.e. skill development, or would you have any knowledge of that?---I don't have any knowledge. I can see that they might.

PN476

Would you be aware that the majority of councils have an education assistance policy?---I would expect that they do.

PN477

And would you imagine that that might go some way to overcoming these perceived problems?---I would expect that they do.

PN478

Thank you. I have no further questions, Commissioner.

PN479

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Wilson. Any re-examination, Mr Megennis?

PN480

MR MEGENNIS: Just a couple of points and one might well be, Commissioner, an observational point. I am not sure whether it is the right time to actually refer to it but it was in relation to Mr Wilson's question in relation to the sole practitioner line of questioning where he made a reference to the ANFs log of claims. It is true that the ANF has had a log of claims in relation to nurses not working alone, but it is more an issue in relation to health and safety aspects of the position in terms of nurses working in isolation, rather than performing their roles dually as maternal and child health nurses.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEGENNIS [3.44pm]

**** DEBORAH AKERS RXN MR MEGENNIS

PN481

MR MEGENNIS: Just one further question where Mr Wilson was referring to the tools as outlined in point 12 of your statement. I am not sure what Mr Wilson was seeking to extract from that line of questioning, but would those tools as Mr Wilson referred to, are they tools that are used as an approach to the clinical complexities of the role of maternal and child health nurse?---Yes, I would say they are. If I had to look at one as an example, it would be the language strategy that was developed this year by the Centre for Community Child Health out of some research into early years and language development and it articulates with the hearing screening which is about to be ceased that we have done previously, because we are now expected to take on the language strategy in a health promotion way and so, yes, they have because they provide a package of information that we now must administer at certain ages and stages visits and they are around the skills of language for children, so that is just one example, but, yes.

PN482

Are those tools relevant to any emerging clinical standards, or are they part and parcel of the maternal and child health service that have been around for years?---It depends how many years you mean. Since the healthy futures program, yes, which was in 1994.

PN483

I have no further questions, Commissioner.

PN484

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Megennis. Thank you, Ms Akers, for your evidence. You may step down.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.47pm]

PN485

THE COMMISSIONER: Just for completeness, were you planning, Mr Megennis, in tendering Ms Akers' witness statement and also did you wish to tender your outline of submissions and all the other documents that you took us through?

PN486

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, Commissioner, that is correct. I would like to have them recorded as exhibits.

PN487

THE COMMISSIONER: Fine. Shall we do that now, or we could do it tomorrow, if we would like to start and finish Ms Williams. Is that what you have got in mind?

PN488

MR MEGENNIS: I am just not quite sure. Sorry to sound as though I am not picking up your line of questioning in relation to the tendering of those exhibits. I am not quite sure where you are taking me to in relation to that.

PN489

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, the Commission's normal practice is for all the witness statements, once they have been confirmed by the witness, to be tendered as exhibits. That is black and white, then generally and Mr Wilson can contradict me if he doesn't think that that is what normally happens, outlines of submissions are marked as exhibits and then obviously Commission documentation like Commissioner Blair's recommendation, that is not marked, but other documents are and in this case we could do it as a bulk item or we could mark each one individually and when we get to Mr Wilson's submissions, we will be doing the same, so it is absolutely straight down the line as no hidden agenda, Mr Megennis. Too late in the day for me to even think of one.

PN490

MR MEGENNIS: No, I wasn't sure whether you wanted to go through each and every one individually.

PN491

THE COMMISSIONER: Can do. I am in the hands of the parties as to whether you want them individually marked or we just do a job lot, but in my written decision, I would refer to exhibit A, you know, 4 and then the specific document and its date.

PN492

MR WILSON: Just as a preference, I would prefer them individually marked, but, I mean, I am not going to be adamant about it if it creates problems.

PN493

THE COMMISSIONER: No, it just takes time, that is all, I think. That is the only issue. I am happy with that, if Mr Megennis can cope with that.

PN494

MR MEGENNIS: Do I start then with the witness statement of Deborah Akers or go back from the start?

PN495

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, could I ask before we get on to the witness statement, I was planning on sitting until 4.30. Beyond that I am probably going to lose concentration which is not very productive of me, but I am being realistic. Is it possible to - Ms Williams has been here all day. I don't fancy the prospect of her coming back tomorrow morning again. I am sure her employer wouldn't be too happy either. Is it possible - how long do you think Ms Williams will take?

PN496

MR MEGENNIS: Maybe of a similar time to Ms Akers. I am not sure of her availability tomorrow.

PN497

THE COMMISSIONER: We have only got until two in terms of my diary tomorrow, because that is what we contracted originally and that is what I have kept faith with.

PN498

MR WILSON: Could I just make a comment on that, just in terms of programming and I am not fussed whether Ms Williams is finished today or not. That is for the ANF, but I certainly agree, I only had in my diary until lunch time tomorrow, whatever lunch time is, but I should perhaps just say at this stage, asking the indulgence of both your good self and Mr Megennis, my colleague Mr Wall and myself have a real problem tomorrow in that we have a number of agreements being certified. I would ask if I could have an adjournment for hopefully no more than 10 minutes at about 11 o'clock, because Mr Wall can't be in two places at once and we have got - even though he is a fine human being, I don't think he can make that.

PN499

THE COMMISSIONER: I was about to say and no disrespect to Mr Wall.

PN500

MR WILSON: So it would only I hope be a 10 minute adjournment at that time, Commissioner, so I would just ask for that indulgence.

PN501

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have any difficulty, Mr Megennis?

PN502

MR MEGENNIS: I have a feeling that the ANF is going to be appearing in those matters as well.

PN503

THE COMMISSIONER: So you have got a vested interest in saying yes.

PN504

MR MEGENNIS: Fortunately I have got someone else lined up for those matters, but I don't imagine they will be - I don't know about 10 minutes. They might be Electroluxed, I don't know.

PN505

MR WILSON: Well, I am only talking about one. Mr Wall I think has got three or four, but they are before different Commissioners so that is why we have got a problem, just in terms of timing.

PN506

THE COMMISSIONER: That is fine. Gentlemen, in terms of my diary, I put down as we originally agreed from 10 until two. If we finish before two, that is great. If not, I expect to be sitting until two o'clock, so within that, I am flexible.

PN507

MR WILSON: I can certainly say that I am not going to be very long in terms of my submissions, Commissioner, I would think no more than an hour.

PN508

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN509

MR MEGENNIS: And on that point, if we are in a situation where we are running out of time, would the Commission approve of - - -

PN510

MR WILSON: Mr Wall mightn't be here at all tomorrow.

PN511

THE COMMISSIONER: I think Mr Wall is in capable hands in terms of the lady behind him.

PN512

MR MEGENNIS: Whether the Commission would approve final submissions being submitted in writing.

PN513

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I am comfortable with that. I know it is a pain in the neck and obviously subject to what Mr Wilson thinks.

PN514

MR WILSON: I would have objection if we find ourselves in that position, Commissioner.

PN515

THE COMMISSIONER: What would we like to do? We have got 35 minutes. Would you like to start Ms Williams? Do you want to - - -

PN516

MR MEGENNIS: I would like perhaps to go through with the exhibits first and get that out of the way, so at least that is dealt with.

PN517

THE COMMISSIONER: Shall we do them individually, all of your various documentation?

PN518

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, perhaps by starting, Commissioner, with the actual section 113 application draft variation. I am not sure whether you need to have this relied on as an exhibit or not, but it is certainly part of the application.

PN519

THE COMMISSIONER: I think it would actually be useful because the document in the Commission's decision I will be going back to all the time as you have in your submissions and I am sure that Mr Wilson will in his, so I will actually take a copy of it and pop it in your file. Now, this is the draft order, Mr Megennis?

PN520

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, it is the draft order that the ANF took the Commission to earlier in the proceedings, this morning.

PN521

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, it was lodged in the Commission on 11 August 2004.

EXHIBIT #A1 SECTION 113 APPLICATION DRAFT VARIATION

PN522

THE COMMISSIONER: You seem to have a logic in terms of flow of documents. Which one would you like marked next?

PN523

MR MEGENNIS: Well, there was the original outline of the submissions that form the basis from which the ANF has made its submissions today.

PN524

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wilson, will I leave it to you to jump up and object?

PN525

MR WILSON: I will only say something if I am going to object, Commissioner.

PN526

THE COMMISSIONER: Good.

EXHIBIT #A2 SYNOPSIS OF SUBMISSIONS DATED 12/11/2004 SUBMITTED BY AUSTRALIAN NURSING FEDERATION

PN527

MR MEGENNIS: The accompanying list of exhibits that were listed in order may be of some use, I don't know, Commissioner, but it might be easy to go directly to the actual exhibits.

PN528

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, may I, because we have all done that today with your assistance, so that might be sensible. The first one doesn't need to be marked. That is my view. That is the safety net - - -

PN529

MR MEGENNIS: That was the statement of principles relied on by the ANF in respect of the basis from the claim.

PN530

THE COMMISSIONER: No, don't need to.

PN531

MR MEGENNIS: The AILR document concerning the Federal National Wage Case August 1989 was a supplementary document to in effect link in to that statement of principles where the principles referred back to the '89 case.

PN532

MR WILSON: It is not a Commission document, Commissioner.

PN533

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that is my feeling, too.

EXHIBIT #A3 AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL LAW REVIEW VOLUME 31 NUMBER 16 DATED 17/08/1989 AND PARAGRAPHS 286 TO 296

PN534

MR MEGENNIS: The Industrial Relations Commission of Victoria in full session, the Registered Nurses case number 2.

PN535

THE COMMISSIONER: No, neither the next one.

PN536

MR MEGENNIS: That is the June '87 decision.

PN537

THE COMMISSIONER: That is it and neither Commissioner Simmonds with the Mitchell Shire Council Agreement.

PN538

MR MEGENNIS: Except that attached to that are those other documents from the Department of Human Services, including the pay schedules that reflect the public sector. The ANF has relied upon them in support - - -

PN539

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I know.

PN540

MR MEGENNIS: If I can assist the transcript writer at this stage, I don't now whether I need to go on the record in relation to this point, there was a question in relation to Robert Burrows.

PN541

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I think we know who Mr Burrows is.

PN542

MR MEGENNIS: That was outlined in that document.

PN543

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wilson, how do we pick up the attachments?

PN544

MR WILSON: I would be inclined to separate the two attachments from the Mitchell document. I mean, I know it is a comparison thing, but they are not really part of the Mitchell document. I would be inclined to separate the two yellow pages from the Mitchell document and put them together with that DHS document.

PN545

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, so basically have as a document which we don't mark the certification of agreement cover page, the first page of the Mitchell Shire Council Enterprise Agreement and then the rates and then separate off the rest of that as a separate exhibit?

PN546

MR WILSON: That would be my submission.

PN547

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

EXHIBIT #A4 PUBLIC SECTOR NURSING WAGE RATES FOR 01/04/2004 AND 01/10/2004 TOGETHER WITH DOCUMENTATION FROM DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES

PN548

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, I don't think there is any need to mark Commissioner Hingley's order. The Banyule Enterprise Agreement, no. Commissioner Blair August 2000, no. The Industrial Reports?

PN549

MR WILSON: Probably. I think we marked the other ones.

PN550

THE COMMISSIONER: We did the AILR ones.

PN551

MR WILSON: Yes.

EXHIBIT #A5 INDUSTRIAL REPORTS VOLUME 131 PART 1 PAGES 88 TO 92

PN552

THE COMMISSIONER: The Industrial Relations Commission of New South Wales, no.

EXHIBIT #A6 INDUSTRIAL REPORTS VOLUME 126 PAGES 244 AND 281

PN553

THE COMMISSIONER: Mooroobool Shire Council, no. The nurse recruitment and retention committee final report May 2001.

EXHIBIT #A7 NURSE RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION COMMITTEE FINAL REPORT MAY 2001

EXHIBIT #A8 MATERNAL AND CHILD HEALTH SERVICE NURSING WORKFORCE ASSESSMENT PROJECT REPORT JANUARY 2004

EXHIBIT #A9 SURVIVING THE CONTRACT STATE, A REPORT ON THE VICTORIAN MATERNAL AND CHILD HEALTH SERVICE IN A DECADE OF CHANGE

PN554

THE COMMISSIONER: Then the two media articles together or separately?

PN555

MR MEGENNIS: Together.

EXHIBIT #A10 TWO ARTICLES DATED 24/01/2004 AND 08/11/2003

PN556

THE COMMISSIONER: The rates of pay?

PN557

MR MEGENNIS: Commissioner, you may recall during my early submissions and I am not sure whether this is contested by Mr Wilson, but we did indicate at the time that if the Commission wanted actual documents from the relevant EBAs that are outlined in that, the ANF is willing to put that together for you, but to the best of my knowledge, these rates are the current rates of pay for those particular councils.

PN558

MR WILSON: Yes, we had a look at those, Commissioner, when we got the submission and we don't take any argument with those and we would agree, but whether you want to mark them or not I don't know, but we wouldn't ask Mr Megennis to prove that, put it that way.

PN559

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Do you want them marked, Mr Megennis?

PN560

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, Commissioner.

EXHIBIT #A11 MATERNAL AND CHILD HEALTH NURSING RATES OF PAY AS AT SEPTEMBER 2004

PN561

THE COMMISSIONER: The Shire of Yarra Ranges position description for co-ordinator maternal and child health service.

PN562

MR MEGENNIS: Commissioner, contained in that and Mr Wilson has got his separated and for some reason I have got mine bundle up.

PN563

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, so have I.

PN564

MR WILSON: We just did that for convenience.

PN565

MR MEGENNIS: Okay, but there are also job descriptions for maternal and child health nurses at the City of Whittlesea as well.

PN566

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN567

MR MEGENNIS: So I am not sure whether the Commission wants them separate. All together is fine by us.

PN568

MR WILSON: All together.

PN569

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

EXHIBIT #A12 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS, POSITION DESCRIPTIONS FOR SHIRE OF YARRA RANGES AND CITY OF WHITTLESEA

PN570

THE COMMISSIONER: Does that cover it, gentlemen?

PN571

MR MEGENNIS: Yes.

PN572

MR WILSON: Yes.

PN573

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, so that is exhibit A12. All of the documentation that is headed - sort of the first cover sheets, the enterprise agreement for Moonee Valley City Council, does any of that need to be marked?

PN574

MR WILSON: No, I don't believe so, Commissioner.

PN575

THE COMMISSIONER: Because it covers different enterprise agreements, I think, that have all been certified.

PN576

MR WILSON: They are all certified agreements.

PN577

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN578

MR MEGENNIS: Just a point of clarification to make sure I haven't allowed these to go through to the keeper. These documents, although not marked as exhibits, the Commission will take into consideration the various points as outlined in the submissions?

PN579

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, absolutely. All it means is that when they are mentioned, if they need to be mentioned in terms of the decision, they will be referred to directly. They just won't have an exhibit number.

PN580

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, that is fine.

PN581

THE COMMISSIONER: Just because they don't have an exhibit number doesn't mean they don't exist. Does that assist?

PN582

MR MEGENNIS: It has been some time since I have been involved in a lengthy submission such as these, Commissioner.

PN583

THE COMMISSIONER: I wouldn't get back into the habit if I were you, Mr Megennis.

PN584

MR MEGENNIS: Perhaps consent outcomes might be more easy in the future.

EXHIBIT #A13 AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL LAW REVIEW VOLUME 24 NUMBER 17 DATED 09/08/1982

EXHIBIT #A14 AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL LAW REVIEW VOLUME 25 NUMBER 15 DATED 29/06/1983

PN585

THE COMMISSIONER: No neither for either of Commissioner Hingley's decisions. Public Hospital Nurses State Award.

PN586

MR MEGENNIS: That just for assistance, Commissioner, was a document that I downloaded from the New South Wales Nurses Union's web site. I can't be certain how it is written up in terms of the formal documentation. It was, as I say, a download from their web site, so it might be in the interests to have that one marked.

PN587

MR WILSON: No problem.

EXHIBIT #A15 PUBLIC HOSPITAL NURSES STATE AWARD NEW SOUTH WALES NURSES' ASSOCIATION

PN588

THE COMMISSIONER: And I think that is it, except for Ms Akers' witness statement.

PN589

MR MEGENNIS: Yes, that is correct and Ms Williams' witness statement as well.

PN590

THE COMMISSIONER: Not until Ms Williams has attested to it, Mr Megennis.

PN591

MR MEGENNIS: Yes. I am getting ahead of myself, I am sorry.

EXHIBIT #A16 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DEBORAH AKERS DATED 10/11/2004

PN592

THE COMMISSIONER: Two options, one Ms Williams pops in the witness box and you start your examination in chief. The other option is that we start that at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. Do the parties have a view?

PN593

MR MEGENNIS: I understand that Mr Wilson is not opposed to commencing that at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

PN594

MR WILSON: Yes, I don't mind either way.

PN595

THE COMMISSIONER: I am not fussed either way.

PN596

MR WILSON: I would just have a view it is generally better not to interrupt witnesses one way or the other, unless it is unavoidable.

PN597

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that is my feeling, too, and I suppose being pragmatic, if we have only got 20 minutes, it is best off if we start afresh tomorrow morning with Ms Williams and we can do it in one go.

PN598

MR MEGENNIS: Thank you.

PN599

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there anything further that we need to deal with until we adjourn until tomorrow morning? Thank you everybody for today's proceedings. The Commission shall adjourn until 10 am tomorrow morning.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 1 DECEMBER 2004 [4.10pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

DEBORAH AKERS, SWORN PN381
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MEGENNIS PN381
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON PN423
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEGENNIS PN481
WITNESS WITHDREW PN485
EXHIBIT #A1 SECTION 113 APPLICATION DRAFT VARIATION PN522
EXHIBIT #A2 SYNOPSIS OF SUBMISSIONS DATED 12/11/2004 SUBMITTED BY AUSTRALIAN NURSING FEDERATION PN527
EXHIBIT #A3 AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL LAW REVIEW VOLUME 31 NUMBER 16 DATED 17/08/1989 AND PARAGRAPHS 286 TO 296 PN534
EXHIBIT #A4 PUBLIC SECTOR NURSING WAGE RATES FOR 01/04/2004 AND 01/10/2004 TOGETHER WITH DOCUMENTATION FROM DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES PN548
EXHIBIT #A5 INDUSTRIAL REPORTS VOLUME 131 PART 1 PAGES 88 TO 92 PN552
EXHIBIT #A6 INDUSTRIAL REPORTS VOLUME 126 PAGES 244 AND 281 PN553
EXHIBIT #A7 NURSE RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION COMMITTEE FINAL REPORT MAY 2001 PN554
EXHIBIT #A8 MATERNAL AND CHILD HEALTH SERVICE NURSING WORKFORCE ASSESSMENT PROJECT REPORT JANUARY 2004 PN554
EXHIBIT #A9 SURVIVING THE CONTRACT STATE, A REPORT ON THE VICTORIAN MATERNAL AND CHILD HEALTH SERVICE IN A DECADE OF CHANGE PN554
EXHIBIT #A10 TWO ARTICLES DATED 24/01/2004 AND 08/11/2003 PN556
EXHIBIT #A11 MATERNAL AND CHILD HEALTH NURSING RATES OF PAY AS AT SEPTEMBER 2004 PN561
EXHIBIT #A12 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS, POSITION DESCRIPTIONS FOR SHIRE OF YARRA RANGES AND CITY OF WHITTLESEA PN570
EXHIBIT #A13 AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL LAW REVIEW VOLUME 24 NUMBER 17 DATED 09/08/1982 PN585
EXHIBIT #A14 AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL LAW REVIEW VOLUME 25 NUMBER 15 DATED 29/06/1983 PN585
EXHIBIT #A15 PUBLIC HOSPITAL NURSES STATE AWARD NEW SOUTH WALES NURSES' ASSOCIATION PN588
EXHIBIT #A16 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DEBORAH AKERS DATED 10/11/2004 PN592