C2004/1578, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 602 (13 February 2004)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 10800
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY

C2004/1578

UNITED ENERGY LIMITED

and

AUSTRALIAN MUNICIPAL, ADMINISTRATIVE,
CLERICAL AND SERVICES UNION and OTHERS

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act of
a dispute re enterprise bargaining negotiations

MELBOURNE

10.03 AM, WEDNESDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 2004

PN1

MR T. NOONAN: I am from Alinta; I have with me MR L. SMITH from Alinta as well.

PN2

MR M. GEORGIOU: I appear for APESMA. And can I ask if Alinta is a party to these proceedings?

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You can, Mr Georgiou. Well, United Energy Limited is the applicant but we will perhaps come back to that.

PN4

MR M. RIZZO: I appear on behalf of the ASU.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Noonan, what is the situation; are you applying for leave to intervene or are you a party to the proceedings?

PN6

MR NOONAN: If I could explain. This has been a matter that has been before the Commission in - on other issues. Alinta operates at the moment under a labour services agreement, copies of which the other parties have had now for a while, which spells out quite clearly that Alinta has the authority to represent the employees of United Energy in all matters affecting their employment. And I would have thought that was a matter that was well settled by now.

PN7

MR GEORGIOU: The applicant, your Honour, is United Energy and I haven't heard any argument that there is a representative of United Energy here. The arrangements that United Energy may have - and Mr Noonan needs to qualify which part of Alinta he represents because my understanding is that there are various tentacles to the Alinta octopus, and it should be made clear to this Commission which part of that organisation he represents. But I will make the point that no one has made an appearance on behalf of the applicant in this matter and, on that basis, we would ask that the matter be adjourned until someone from the applicant makes an appearance. If the Commission pleases.

PN8

MR NOONAN: Perhaps if I - it would be more correct if I amended my appearance to say that I act as agent for United Energy in this matter; that I have acted for United Energy as - as agent for United Energy in other matters before this Commission, and I would see that that is an appropriate thing. I, in fact, had intended to address the structural issue just as part of our discussions later on. That is probably something that we do need to have a common understanding of as it may be relevant. But I don't think there is any issue with our ability to represent as agent the interests of United Energy.

PN9

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Georgiou.

PN10

MR GEORGIOU: No, no, I will - - -

PN11

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Well, what is the situation, Mr Noonan?

PN12

MR NOONAN: Your Honour, I guess we would not be here today if we simply had a disagreement in the process of bargaining with these unions. That would not be a matter that I would think ought to exercise the Commission's interest. Our dispute is about industrial action being taken today in our workplace which is not within the ambit of the bargaining period notices that have been issued. We would say that, firstly, the notices we received are flawed and that is a technical issue for us to consider. But, more particularly, the action being taken today is not relevant to the negotiations with the United Energy enterprise and we are certainly happy to put before you evidence to show that some of the unions involved are well and truly on the public record that the industrial action happening today is not part of the specific issues being negotiated with United Energy.

PN13

The representatives, in fact, in those discussions have been quite at pains to tell us that the action to date is not really directed at United Energy. Therefore, we feel that we do need the Commission's assistance to get these negotiations back on track. There are more recently some concerns about the veracity of some of the undertakings given, and I would suggest that the Commission might provide the appropriate structure to ensure that the parties adhere to some of their commitments. So, in brief, as an opening statement we have a dispute; I think the dispute is undeniably there. Employees have taken industrial action today in support of what can only be described as a broad industry agenda and quite unrelated to the specific issues being negotiated between these unions and United Energy.

PN14

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. What do you say, Mr Georgiou?

PN15

MR GEORGIOU: Your Honour, I am a bit lost. There was notification against my organisation and the ASU saying that United Energy had a dispute with us but nothing in Mr Noonan's submissions mentions anything about my organisation or the ASU and, on that basis, we would ask to be excused. The submissions were specifically with regard to another union. We are not taking industrial action today, at least not here, not against United Energy. And, indeed, the employer quite graciously allowed the ASU and ourselves to have a report back meeting in work time on the premises of UE for our members. And on the basis of Mr Noonan's submission, can I ask that we be excused from these proceedings? He has not mentioned that he is in dispute with us at all. If the Commission pleases.

PN16

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And, what the APESMA members are not on strike today; is that what you said?

PN17

MR GEORGIOU: No. No, we are the good guys, your Honour.

PN18

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Rizzo.

PN19

MR RIZZO: Your Honour, Mr Georgiou is quite correct. The meetings that we are having today, and there is a series of meetings - sorry, a meeting of ASU and APESMA members at 12.30 today which involves a number of companies but does not involve this company. We had our meeting, as Mr Georgiou says, on Monday afternoon at the premises of United Energy and United Energy were, as Mr Georgiou said, graceful enough to allow us the meeting on site. But the ASU and APESMA do not have a stop work meeting or any industrial action with United Energy today. We do have a stop work meeting with other companies at lunchtime today, but not with this company, in order to report to members the progress in the negotiations with the various companies. So I am not sure that - like Mr Georgiou, I am not sure why we are here because there is no industrial action against this company today, your Honour.

PN20

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Noonan, what do you say about that?

PN21

MR NOONAN: Two things, your Honour, probably three things. Firstly, throughout all of our discussions over the last three to four months the two unions represented here today and the ETU have been at great pains to point out that they operate as a single bargaining unit; they operate as one and one will speak for all. That I am surprised to hear today that they have a different view of that; perhaps encouraged but surprised.

PN22

Secondly, whilst the company did make available in work time both facilities and employees for a report back meeting yesterday, I am somewhat disappointed to find in the union information sheet that came out at the end of the day or early this morning that rather than being a simple report back meeting, that meeting took on an industrial flavour and, in fact, passed resolutions to take further industrial action. And that was not in the spirit in which the meeting was granted to them. So on that basis, I don't believe that these unions are quite as clean as they might have made out.

PN23

And certainly the Commission has a power under 170NA where there are multiple unions to give a direction that any one or more of those unions may speak for the others and I would - if there is an issue with my friends on the left representing the other unions - and it is not a position they have adopted so far, they have had no difficulty in representing each other - I would ask that you exercise that power.

PN24

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The application, in fact, attaches a notice which apparently was put out by the ETU, is that right, or the CEPU?

PN25

MR NOONAN: That is correct, your Honour.

PN26

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The attached resolution says:

PN27

The mass meeting of power industry shop stewards.

PN28

Do you know what that is a reference to?

PN29

MR NOONAN: The ETU is absent but I think I am right in saying that I think around about 10 December the ETU had a meeting of its shop stewards which passed a resolution which has resulted in the industrial action happening today.

PN30

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have you had any communication from the CEPU because they were notified of the hearing this morning?

PN31

MR NOONAN: They indicated to me on Monday at our very brief meeting before they left that they wouldn't - I shouldn't count on their appearance here today, would be the kindest way I could put it.

PN32

MR GEORGIOU: Your Honour, if I may clarify the last point. I was advised by Mr Hayes of the Electrical Trades Union as early as 8 o'clock this morning that the ETU would be represented here, but the ETU representative is at another matter and I don't know what that other matter is; because we were to meet in the coffee shop downstairs and he said he couldn't make it because he had another matter on at 9 o'clock. So that is not so with regard to the Electrical Trades Union.

PN33

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you don't appear for them?

PN34

MR GEORGIOU: I certainly could never do that, your Honour.

PN35

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps I should stand this matter down and see if we can ascertain where the CEPU representative is. I mean, the notices as I say indicates that the mass meeting was to be an ETU mass meeting, and I hear what you say about the unions having a single bargaining unit or operating as a single bargaining unit. But as this industrial action appears to be instigated by the ETU, at least in terms of the notice that went out to the members, if there was to be a direction given under 170NA the more likely factor in that case would be the ETU, wouldn't it?

PN36

MR NOONAN: I accept what you are saying is logical. I guess my reluctance in all of this is that a central issue in the discussions that have been going on with United Energy, in particular, have been the company's desire to, in fact, talk to the unions separately and to reach separate agreements. And there are bargaining notices afoot to that intent. The unions have absolutely stood together and on a number of occasions we haven't always had three representatives there being quite comfortable to represent each other's interests. And so I am happy to take a short break while we try and locate an ETU person, but I wouldn't be happy if we stopped the proceedings today on the basis of them not being around.

PN37

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, no, I will adjourn for 15 minutes. But just, Mr Noonan, on the basis of your application and from what you have told me this morning and what the other unions have said, it seems to me that the ETU is the more logical or most logical for you to be talking to at the moment.

PN38

I hear what you say about wanting to speak with each of the unions separately, or negotiate with them separately in relation to their bargaining notices and I gather from the terms of your application that there is some suggestion that this is really a pattern bargaining situation, and I perhaps should simply hearken to the words of Munro J I think in the AMWU where he suggested that pattern bargaining might be a basis for a ground for setting aside a bargaining period under - or bargaining notices under 170MW and issued a warning I think to that effect. But I don't have any evidence about that. As I say, that is the tone of the application. You are seeking at this stage, in any event, conciliation with the unions separately, is it, or together?

PN39

MR NOONAN: Your Honour, I was going to come to this but we certainly would seek conciliation, and in saying that I would seek that all of the bargaining period notices be altogether under that conciliation process rather than having them separate or just confining it to some of those. The matters in terms of the company are certainly very closely related and the industrial parties are the same group so it makes sense to bring them altogether, have that discussion, reach some agreement, and everyone moves on. That is what we want to achieve. You quite rightly point out we are struggling with an industry or pattern agenda from the unions at the moment to try and separate out the enterprise specific things that we need to resolve. But perhaps we need to take that break and find an ETU person.

PN40

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I will stand the matter down till - sorry, Mr Georgiou.

PN41

MR GEORGIOU: I object to the implications that there is either pattern bargaining or an industry-wide campaign. We have yet to have anything put to the Commission that the ASU or ourselves are involved in a dispute. The section 99 notice against us says that the parties are in dispute. Nothing has been put to the Commission this morning to suggest that we are in dispute. And we ask that the Commission rule as to whether or not there is a dispute and what that dispute is between United Energy and the ASU and ourselves. With all due respect, I have got better things to do than to hang around when I am not in dispute with someone.

PN42

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In paragraph 3 of the application - do you have a copy of that? Have you been given one?

PN43

MR GEORGIOU: Yes, I do. I have memorised it.

PN44

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It says:

PN45

United Energy has also been notified orally by APESMA that it intends to organise and direct industrial action in the form of bans and limitations to commence on 5 February.

PN46

MR GEORGIOU: How I negotiate, your Honour, and what tactics I use in order to convince the employer of the error of his or her ways is part of the negotiating process. There is no evidence before the Commission that my organisation or Mr Rizzo's organisation has any dispute with the employer at the time of either the application being made or the hearing that is currently - that we are currently involved in.

PN47

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There is also an allegation in the application that your organisation has not complied with the requirements for giving notice of industrial action.

PN48

MR GEORGIOU: Well, let us see the evidence. I mean, I am happy to respond to that.

PN49

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I mean I have got a notice of dispute. If that is to be heard, then I would have to hear the evidence. What Mr Noonan is asking for is conciliation. Am I to understand that you are not interested in conciliation?

PN50

MR GEORGIOU: Well, we have not been heard on that and nor have the - - -

PN51

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is right.

PN52

MR GEORGIOU: Yes, but the issue is that what we have put to the Commission is, we met with the company, they agreed to a report back meeting on Monday afternoon for our members on their premises in paid time, and that is the only issue. The rest of it has all been done by negotiation. I can't respond to what I am in dispute about if I don't know and there is nothing been presented to suggest that we are in dispute.

PN53

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, are you suggesting Mr Noonan run his case and bring his evidence on the industrial disputes?

PN54

MR GEORGIOU: I think he should, I think he should.

PN55

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, I will stand the matter down till 10.45.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.30am]

RESUMED [10.54am]

PN56

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Borenstein, you appear for the ETU?

PN57

MR G. BORENSTEIN: I appear for the CEPU. I apologise for the delay.

PN58

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. You had another matter?

PN59

MR BORENSTEIN: I did.

PN60

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Have you had an opportunity to speak with Mr Georgiou, and be told what is going on?

PN61

MR BORENSTEIN: He has given me a brief run-down.

PN62

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what do I do now, Mr Noonan. Mr Georgiou says you should run your case and establish the existence of a dispute.

PN63

MR NOONAN: Fine, your Honour. Perhaps if we just clear up a couple of matters that have been raised at this stage, which is the issue of APESMA and ASUs relevance here today. You have heard some suggestions from me about the collective nature of the approach to date, but I would like to just table this document which was sent out yesterday.

EXHIBIT #UE1 DOCUMENT HEADED APESMA ASU UNITED ENERGY ALINTA UECOM MULTINET NEWSLETTER DATED 03/02/2004

PN64

MR NOONAN: Now, the notice I don't take particular - have any particular issue with the content. It simply seems to set out what was ostensibly an agreed report back meeting to report on the state of negotiations. It took on a different flavour yesterday, and follows through on the threat that was made a week or so previously in negotiations that APESMA and ASU members would take broadly throughout the state and place industrial bans and limitations on work.

PN65

That was made, as Mr Georgiou said, possibly in the context of simply bargaining. Maybe it was an accurate statement, but the circulation of this document around our workplace late yesterday and today seems to give some validity to the assertion made a few weeks ago, and I think puts very clearly on the table that APESMA and ASU are seeking to take industrial action: not only industrial action in support of their bargaining claims, but in fact industrial action that is, as I understand it from other documents I have seen, that the same bans, limitations, etcetera, are being applied in all of the distribution businesses.

PN66

Again, our dispute is that not that we are having difficulty in negotiating a particular agreement, but that we are caught up in a much wider agenda. I can table documents related to the ETU action today, that is in the press today, as to what is going on. Statements by the State Secretary of the ETU, the advertisement that was attached to our application, makes it very clear that the ETU either in cohorts with the other unions or independently is also engaged in a state-wide industrial action to further their own agenda as they see that agenda.

PN67

We say that that is not relevant to our bargaining with them, and is why we make the application that we do.

PN68

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In the application you refer to notice of industrial action being given by APESMA. Do you have a copy of that?

PN69

MR NOONAN: The reference you are talking about there is - - -

PN70

MR GEORGIOU: Your Honour, if I can help, I haven't one, and my organisation hasn't.

PN71

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You haven't issued one.

PN72

MR GEORGIOU: So, that was one of our submissions when we got down to the substance.

PN73

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. It actually says orally.

PN74

MR NOONAN: The one I have just tabled is the only document I intend to table in relation to that.

PN75

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN76

MR GEORGIOU: Mr Noonan must have been psychic when he notified, because this is dated 3 February, which was yesterday. And, your Honour, I draw your attention to the third last paragraph:

PN77

The unions will await the outcome of similar meetings to be held tomorrow -

PN78

which is today -

PN79

... and then issue the appropriate paperwork should that also be appropriate for the other companies.

PN80

The issue is that we will not, and we have - this document simply says that we are going to report back and the members will decide. As we stand here at 11 o'clock, there is no directions from our members, either the ASU or ourselves, to participate in any campaign. If the members so decide at lunchtime today, then there will be no campaign.

PN81

The reference to industrial action should also be prefaced by the fact that we have always said it would be protected industrial action within the meaning of the Workplace Relations Act. It is not simply some cowboy action, or some wildcat strike: it is something that is sanctioned by the Act. And also the heading lists three other companies who are not here today - Alinta, UECOM and Multinet. The Commission may also say that the industrial action may be against those three companies, and not the one represented here today.

PN82

There are a lot of conclusions being drawn by Mr Noonan which I say are really clutching at straws, to try to drag us into an issue that involves our brothers and sisters from the ETU: I can't call them comrades yet, because we are not that close.

PN83

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, just as well you have got broad shoulders, Mr Borenstein.

PN84

MR BORENSTEIN: Yes.

PN85

MR GEORGIOU: And if the company wishes - there was also a submission made about the single bargaining unit. The single bargaining unit refers to the current document binding on the parties that obliges the ETU, the ASU and ourselves to negotiate a replacement EBA with the company. Nothing that Mr Noonan has put to the Commission says that also obliges us to be dragged into an industrial dispute that the ETU might get itself embroiled in, nor does - - -

PN86

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry to interrupt, Mr Georgiou. Your notice of intention, or initiation, I am sorry, of a bargaining period says that your organisation intends to try to make an agreement under Division 2 of Part VIB of the Act with UE, ASU and CEPU?

PN87

MR GEORGIOU: Yes, and that is what I am obliged to do, both under the current enterprise agreement binding on the parties and the resolution of my organisation to pursue an enterprise agreement. But it doesn't say anywhere there that with the ETU when they want to get into a blue, you know, that is for Mr Borenstein to put. But as far as - again we put to the Commission that as far as the ASU and ourselves are concerned - the Commission can give this document as much status as it wishes, or as little. This may be, and I am not suggesting that it is, but it may be part of a bargaining tool.

PN88

We say to the Commission, let the parties continue to negotiate. We have probably made more progress with this company than we have with any other in the industry. We are tackling a couple of significant issues, but it is not my role, nor should it be on the public record, to say to the Commission what has and has not been agreed. But can I say of the six companies we are negotiating with, my view is that we have made more progress with this company, in the shortest possible time, I might add, because the early parts of the negotiations involved the issue that was first raised this morning before the Commission, the name of the company and who would be bound by the EBA.

PN89

Once we got over that hurdle the negotiations have been - I think we have had three or four meetings, and without flattering Mr Noonan and Mr Smith, we have done pretty well. They supply the coffees quite regularly, and on that basis we reach agreement fairly quickly. There are some difficulties - - -

PN90

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is the coffee that bad?

PN91

MR GEORGIOU: Oh, yes. The lunches are okay. But we have made significant progress. And we put to the Commission rather than spending time here, we reckon we can knock this agreement over with a couple more meetings. Some of the issues that have been found to be very difficult at other companies have not been found to be difficult with this company.

PN92

So I just think we are better off leaving this place as much as - your Honour probably could assist on a couple of technical issues, but the real issues we can sort out. Let us go back to that hotel, whatever it is called, and finalise an agreement that will be voted on by our members, the ASU and the ETU. If the Commission pleases.

PN93

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Georgiou. Mr Rizzo.

PN94

MR RIZZO: Your Honour, just a couple of brief points. One, the ASU has not filed any paperwork with United Energy in regards to industrial action. Now, that may occur as a result of the meeting today, but certainly as we stand here, we have not filed any paper work as to industrial action with this company.

PN95

Unfortunately, I will have to repeat my submission in brief, your Honour, what I said at Powernet the other day. And that is we have a long history of establishing agreements with these companies over 10 years. This is EBA number 6 now. So we have a long history of coming to an agreement with the three unions before you, and the six or seven companies, over 10 years with little or no assistance from the Commission, and we believe this is the way we can ascertain and come to an agreement on this occasion.

PN96

I say to you again, your Honour, that if every company that we are negotiating with comes to this Commission seeking conciliation, and the like, this Commission's resources would be totally tied up with this section of industry. Frankly, I see it as a waste of the Commission's time to be tied up when we are making progress in these negotiations.

PN97

We will keep negotiating with United Energy, as we have been with the other companies, and we are confident that over the next few weeks the most likely result is that we will get agreement. As Mr Georgiou says, there hasn't been a whole lot of meetings with United Energy: I think there has been about four.

PN98

So it is way too premature to say that things are not on track. We believe things are on track, and we believe over the next little while we will come to an agreement, as we have on previous five occasions. If your Honour pleases.

PN99

MR GEORGIOU: Your Honour, on a technicality, I don't think any union has issued a bargaining period notice on United Energy at all. I stand to be corrected. Something your Honour said just triggered that off. As far as I know, your Honour, no-one has initiated a bargaining period against United Energy. Look, I stand to be corrected. My organisation hasn't, and I remain to be convinced that the others haven't as well.

PN100

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps if we just have a look at this document. I don't know, perhaps that is not - - -

PN101

MR GEORGIOU: And I also - Mr Noonan may wish to clarify this, but I remember some correspondence from him, telling me that he has initiated a bargaining period against us.

PN102

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It has what appears to be a fax signature on the bottom of October 2003, actually.

PN103

MR GEORGIOU: Your Honour, when I go on leave, people do strange things. That is why I shouldn't go on leave. I take that back. The notice that served was against a company called Alinta Limited, and that is the bargaining period notice, as far as I know, that the number that is listed with this application is that one.

PN104

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.

PN105

MR GEORGIOU: I take that back. Ms Baulch has a lot to answer for.

PN106

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr Rizzo, had you finished?

PN107

MR RIZZO: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN108

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Borenstein.

PN109

MR BORENSTEIN: Your Honour, I have got nothing further to add. I adopt the submissions of Mr Georgiou and Mr Rizzo.

PN110

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you say about the allegation that there is an industrial dispute between you and UE?

PN111

MR BORENSTEIN: We don't see that there is such a dispute. We are negotiating with the company over a future proposed agreement, and we see that as continuing in the future. We don't see why these proceedings need be brought. It surprised us somewhat.

PN112

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Noonan, you have heard what everybody has said. They are negotiating with you for an agreement, but they are not in dispute with you.

PN113

MR NOONAN: Yes. If life was only so simple, your Honour.

PN114

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, actually the section 170NA seems to recognise a distinction between industrial disputes and negotiations for agreements.

PN115

MR NOONAN: I was going to come to that, your Honour, as possibly one power that we might ask you to exercise today. Although I do believe that we certainly have a case of, in one case, arguably threatened industrial action in the other industrial action which is - and the ETU action I would suggest is unprotected action because of the - certainly the notice we received on that score was quite flawed.

PN116

I don't particularly rely on the 170MO notice, but I think it is clear that we do need conciliation. The parties seem to, on my left, seem to want to be friends and not friends as it pleases, and as a matter of convenience.

PN117

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is the way of negotiation, isn't it.

PN118

MR NOONAN: Yes, yes, I appreciate that. And really it is not my concern how friendly they want to be amongst themselves, other than we are and have been locked into a bargaining process in which their position, unless it has changed overnight, is very much that it is one-in, all-in. So I think the idea that we can split apart today makes no sense. It is not going to help the process of ultimately gaining agreement.

PN119

I would be more than happy from both Alinta and UE perspective to put aside the current bargaining arrangement, and go straight to a bargaining arrangement directly with the ETU and separately with the ASU and APESMA. These gentlemen are well aware of that position. Now, it seems to me if they - - -

PN120

MR GEORGIOU: I object to that, your Honour. Mr Noonan is raising matters that are the subject of negotiations, and I object to anything that is subject to those negotiations being put on the public record.

PN121

MR NOONAN: The reference I make is really a reference to the relevant bargaining period notices that are out, rather than specific discussions. Again, that position is very much, if we look at the range of bargaining period - initiation of bargaining period notices that are out and about is part of the public record, rather than part of the negotiations that are going on.

PN122

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is the ones that actually name all of the unions.

PN123

MR NOONAN: There are a range of bargaining period notices that have been variously served on United Energy and Alinta by these unions. There are also bargaining period notices served on these and other unions by Alinta Network Services, all to do with either Alinta's broader employment arrangements that it wants to make, or that it wants to make locally.

PN124

So there are, if we look at the totality of the bargaining period notices, there are quite a few afoot. There is another union which is not represented here today and not part of this dispute notice that we brought before you, but is part of the business in the overall settling of agreements that we need to get to, and that is a union that we have essentially made a temporary agreement with, hence they are not part of this.

PN125

The point I want to get to is, I don't think there is a valid process we can go through, unfortunately, which separates the unions under this.

PN126

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Save for the suggestion you made earlier, that there be a direction under 170NA(2).

PN127

MR NOONAN: Yes.

PN128

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I don't know that that at this stage is going to achieve much, in any event.

PN129

MR NOONAN: I mean, I think the power exists either under the application we have made, or if you felt that there was issues with that, then I would certainly make a submission to you that we do go to 170NA to at least provide some structure and direction in the further bargaining. It may reach a point where we no longer need the assistance of the Commission, but I think given that the parties walked away from the table on Monday without even hearing our pay offer, I have some - - -

PN130

MR GEORGIOU: Objection, your Honour.

PN131

MR NOONAN: Okay, sorry about that. I think that the Commission could assist the process that we are going through. I accept Mr Georgiou's argument that at times the bargaining has been positive, but there have been a number of difficulties along the way as well.

PN132

I think what we are confronted with now is not so much a difficulty in bargaining, it is that we are confronted with this agenda which goes well beyond our business, and we do want to get the issues brought back to those that concern our business.

PN133

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Georgiou mentioned something about programming a meeting for next Monday, is that right?

PN134

MR NOONAN: No, we don't have anything diarised at the moment for future meetings.

PN135

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I must have misheard that. Mr Georgiou, are there any meetings programmed, from your point of view, with the UECOM or UE?

PN136

MR GEORGIOU: No, at this stage, your Honour. We put to the company that they need to make up their mind whether they want to negotiate or come to this Commission. I have made submissions with regard to employers spitting the dummy with regard to another matter. We are happy to sit down with this company and negotiate an enterprise agreement binding on United Energy and other companies, perhaps that is subject to negotiation, and involving the Electrical Trades Union, or whatever they are currently called, the ASU and ourselves.

PN137

The other matters, as far as the unions are concerned, we reiterate we have made significant progress. We simply need to sit down with whoever the company wishes to send along, and it has been the two gentlemen who have made appearances this morning, and finalise the thing.

PN138

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, when would it be convenient for you to sit down and do that?

PN139

MR GEORGIOU: We have got time - I have - on that matter Mr Broomfield and I have had discussions, and we will set a meeting. How about Wednesday the 11th - a good enough time?

PN140

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps it might be an idea to just adjourn into conference. I take your point there is no jurisdiction, but I will just adjourn into conference for a minute.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.17am]

RESUMED [11.33am]

PN141

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: During the adjournment I have had some discussions with the parties about the prudence of having some conciliation or private conferences. At this stage it is to be left on the basis that the unions will meet with Mr Noonan on Monday 16 February at 1 pm. The parties shall liberty to apply on 24 hours notice to have the matter re-listed. In that event, if anybody wants it re-listed, they should telephone my Associate and organise for the notice of listing to be sent out.

PN142

Anything else? All right. The matter is adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.34am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #UE1 DOCUMENT HEADED APESMA ASU UNITED ENERGY ALINTA UECOM MULTINET NEWSLETTER DATED 03/02/2004 PN64