C2004/1805, Transcript of Proceedings [2004] AIRCTrans 919 (16 March 2004)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 6218
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER BLAIR

C2004/1805

ACI OPERATIONS PTY LTD t/as
ACI GLASS PACKAGING AUSTRALIA

and

COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL,
ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION,
POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED
SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re the implementation of Predictive
Maintenance

MELBOURNE

11.39 AM, MONDAY, 23 FEBRUARY 2004

PN1

MR A. HAWKEY: I appear for ACI Packaging together with MR L. STENNIKEN.

PN2

MR G. GLOVER: I appear for the ETU.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Glover. Yes, Mr Hawkey?

PN4

MR HAWKEY: Sir, this is a matter that has got quite a long tail and I think it is perhaps appropriate to put a brief history before the Commission so that you are better able to understand where we are coming from in terms of the notification. The parties agreed as far back as 1999 to implement the Metal Engineering Industry Competency Standards. And in terms of that, sir, I would like to just hand up an except from that agreement.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN6

MR HAWKEY: Under clause 10(a), CEPU specific issues, (i):

PN7

The parties have agreed to the following package. (i) implementation of the Metal Industry Award Competency Standards. (iii) W Borlase will be reclassified to C6 with effect from 1 August 1998. Bob White and John McCaig ...(reads)... maintenance improvement issues.

PN8

Sir, those are the principle issues that have given cause to the company taking the action that it has and bringing us forward to today. Now, at that time, sir, there was also agreement to implement Predictive and Preventative Maintenance and if I could, sir, I would like to hand up excerpts from that same agreement.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks.

PN10

MR HAWKEY: I don't wish to belabour the point too heavily, sir. If you just look on the last page under (i):

PN11

The competency standards exercise had determined the totality of plant requirements, short to medium term. This includes a predictive and preventative maintenance system. (ii) the parties ...(reads)... in full by November 2000.

PN12

MR GLOVER: Commissioner, if I may, can I - - -

PN13

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, what document are we looking at?

PN14

MR HAWKEY: Sorry, sir, attachment H, right on the last page.

PN15

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, right at the back, yes, sorry. Yes, Mr Glover?

PN16

MR GLOVER: Commissioner, the section 99, everything at the moment out at ACI, Spotswood is moving along fine. There is no industrial action pending. We are fully - understand everything that Mr Hawkey is putting up here. The agreement to go ahead with predictive maintenance is there. The competencies with the Metal Industry Competencies is going ahead. It just bewilders me why we are here. I would rather, if Mr Hawkey and yourself - I would rather go into conference rather than go through - we were in the Commission for six months in front of Commissioner Cribb.

PN17

We have gone through all this and we have come up with a heap of agreed positions on predictive maintenance, competencies and the like and I think it is a waste of the Commission's time that we are doing this considering the process is going ahead. It is fine at ACI, Spotswood at the moment, and like I said, it bewilders me why we are here today.

PN18

THE COMMISSIONER: I am not quite sure why you are here either but maybe Mr Hawkey might help clarify it and - - -

PN19

MR GLOVER: Well, I would rather go into conference.

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let us just hear from Mr Hawkey first as to whether or not he has any objections to going into conference or whether he simply wishes to put what the issue is as they see it on the transcript and you will have an opportunity to do so as well if you desire. If you don't desire it, and the parties believe overall it is best to go into conference, we will do it that way.

PN21

MR GLOVER: Well, even if Mr Hawkey - he told me before you came in, Commissioner, that everything is motoring along fine at the moment. I have got other pressing matters to attend and I don't feel like wasting the Commission's time on a nothing issue which we can, sort of, take care of in conference or back at ACI at another date.

PN22

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. What do you say about that, Mr Hawkey?

PN23

MR HAWKEY: Sir, I have very specific instructions to put some words on transcript. It is a record of a meeting we had with the electricians on 11 February and part of that meeting was a commitment from the company that those words would be put to public record with the Commission via transcript. So in that context, sir, I have no alternative other than to go forward and put my submissions.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, well, you say in your notification, you hereby notify the existence of an impending dispute at our Booker Street, Spotswood glass plant. What occurred on 11 February to give rise to the notification?

PN25

MR HAWKEY: Sir, on 11 February Mr Mike Gilhome and Paul Vine from the corporate office together with myself, Pauline Saliba and Mr Stenniken attended a meeting that we had called with electricians in their lunch room at about 10 past one. There were a number of electricians present although all weren't there because of leave and some of them were on course and the like. The purpose of that meeting was to address the issue of having the electricians understand clearly the company's position in respect to competency standards and the predictive maintenance program that it has been trying to implement since 1999.

PN26

We had, essentially, become frustrated by the union's continued delaying tactics in allowing us to go forward with the implementation of competency standards and the preventative maintenance program. We had reached agreement with the union on 31 October 2002 in terms of what the content of the job model was to be and that is what - Metal Competency Standards would be in the electrical job model. That was finalised. We tried for the best part of all of last year to have the union members meet and address the job model and effectively vote on whether or not they accepted it.

PN27

And in terms of the preventative maintenance we were in attendance at a number of conferences before Commissioner Cribb which ultimately lead to her issuing a further statement on 13 May last year which we understood settled all of the issues that we needed to address to get things happening. I spoke to Mr Williams, the - one of the delegates for the ETU, on a number of occasions last year, especially in the last half of the year, trying to have these issues addressed. At the end of the day we were not able to achieve that.

PN28

Some of that was - delay was due to the fact that we did have a major project on site and people were very heavily engaged in it. But, at the end of the day, 11 February came along, nothing had been done other than in the week - I think it was the week preceding that - the union had finally had a meeting and agreed to the job model. However, Mr Gilhome came on site and made an address to the troops and if I could I would like to read a dot point - set of notes into transcript and perhaps for clarification I could also hand up a copy of those notes.

PN29

MR GLOVER: Commissioner - - -

PN30

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure, thanks. Yes, Mr Glover?

PN31

MR GLOVER: Just briefly, when there was an agreed position on the 31st of the 10th '02, after that Mr Gilhome actually altered that position which caused us - we were the applicants in the section 99 in front of Cribb that went on for about - Commissioner Cribb - that went on for about six months, right. And that was because an agreed position had been altered by Mr Gilhome, right. On the 13th of the 5th last year when Commissioner Cribb, through a lot of conferences, helped us reach a situation that may have been liveable.

PN32

We always had to go back to the members but a few of us agreed that that was a process to move on. There was holdups all along there, I mean, there was the - Alan mentioned, there was the - probably, three months - three and a half months, the company didn't want to talk about anything other than their project or they were hell bent on other issues at the time. Our blokes got together early May, accepted the job model; everything is going along fine. Like I said, Mike Gilhome come out to address, probably half the electrical crew, made a statement to them, that is fine and things have moved on since then.

PN33

And like I said, again, Commissioner, we don't know why we are here under section 99 of the Act. Maybe, if anything, we probably would have had more reason to enter a section 99 on Mike Gilhome's bullish behaviour on 11 February when he threatened the workers. But, as far as I am concerned, if Alan is going to read out this letter from Mike - this unsigned letter from Mike Gilhome - it is interesting to note too that Mike Gilhome is not here. I thought if he was to read anything out of his own head he would come in here and read it out himself.

PN34

But if that is going to be allowed to go ahead I will be leaving the Commission, your Honour. I have got better things - - -

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: So what purpose would that serve?

PN36

MR GLOVER: Well, Commissioner, I just think it is a joke we are here, right. I have got other matters to pursue. Everything is going along fine. Mike Gilhome threatens these people every second month and does that mean that we have got to be here every four or five weeks to hear him put something on a section 99 on transcript - another threat, if you don't do it my way, you are out. These guys have been putting up with it since 1996. It is a waste of time us being here.

PN37

Like I said, again, Alan, if you want to sit down in conference for half an hour, we are willing to do that. But if you are going to sit there, read out a statement of Mike Gilhome - it is not even signed, we don't even know whether he said it, but you are going to put Mike Gilhome's name to it, well, we will walk.

PN38

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if you walk, that is your choice, Mr Glover. I mean, it doesn't affect the Commission at all whether you choose to walk or not. Obviously the Commission would prefer you to stay. If Mr Hawkey has his instructions, then he has his instructions and I would expect him to carry them out, the same as if you have instructions, I would expect you to carry them out as well. It doesn't make any impression upon the Commission by you threatening to walk out, I can tell you.

PN39

MR GLOVER: Commissioner, does that mean - I mean, I wouldn't bring a section 99 to this Commission with no reason to bring a section 99. I mean, there is absolutely no - there is no chance of industrial action being taken by the ETU members out at ACI, Spotswood. There has been no breach of agreement. Even the document that Alan has put in front of you, it has got AMWU written on it. You know, I just don't know why we are here. I mean, I - - -

PN40

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr Glover, it is not unusual for one party to notify the Commission of a dispute and the other party come along and say, well, I have no idea why we are here. That is not unusual, that is quite common practice. What appears from the document that Mr Hawkey has handed up, there appears to be an issue in regards - from a company's perspective, there appears to be an issue in regards to the maintenance, the predictive maintenance.

PN41

And there appears to be some issue in regards to the qualifications that were required. Now, I hear what you say in terms of wanting to go into conference. I am not fussed whether Mr Hawkey reads this on the transcript or whether he simply provides the Commission with what is alleged to have been said by Mr Gilhome. The question is then, how do we fix what may - or what is obviously, a perceived issue on the part of the company.

PN42

MR GLOVER: I spoke to Alan after 11 February, things are moving along fine.

PN43

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, obviously not because - - -

PN44

MR GLOVER: Well - - -

PN45

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - otherwise if they were you wouldn't be here.

PN46

MR GLOVER: Commissioner, ask him now and he will say things are moving along. He is only here for one reason and one reason only. In the Commission, in front of Commissioner Cribb last year, Mike was hell bent on reading documents out on transcript. It was our application, I opposed it all - - -

PN47

THE COMMISSIONER: He may have a fetish to get his name in history, I don't know.

PN48

MR GLOVER: Well, I don't know what his game is. I mean, we are here today just - I mean, to be honest, it won't go into conference after Alan - Alan will be fine to withdraw the section 99, or whatever, after he has read this on transcript, everyone can go home. As far as I am concerned we are here to enter into conference and I want to find out if there is any perceived problems in front of the Commissioner and let us move on from there rather than read out something that - if you are going to read something out that Mike Gilhome was meant to have said, you would think Mike Gilhome would be here to read it out himself.

PN49

I mean, this document is not even signed by Mike and, you know, either - a couple of the guys that I have put it in front of said, well, you know, some of those things they can't even remember being said at the meeting. So I have got a problem with it being read out.

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Hawkey, what do you wish to do? I mean, the Commission is happy to accept the document as an indication of what is alleged to have been said. I don't know whether it serves any additional purpose to actually read it on the transcript as long as it is on file. Mr Glover's objective is to get the matter into conference to see what are the perceived issues from the company's point of view and to see whether or not we can rectify it. According to Mr Glover - and this is my phrasing - but according to Mr Glover everything is looking good through rose coloured glasses.

PN51

MR HAWKEY: Well, I would certainly like to be in the position of being able to believe that everything was looking fine and rosy, however, I can say that the current indications are that we have got matters starting to happen which will resolve, we believe, all of the issues that have been giving us frustration since about 1999. Those issues - - -

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, sorry, you said that you believed that you have matters now - that you believe will be able to resolve the issues that have given some problems since 1999?

PN53

MR HAWKEY: That is right, sir.

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, so, if there are matters now that are assisting in resolving the issues, that is, the predictive maintenance issue, I would assume, and the qualifications issue, I suppose it is a reasonable question to ask, well, why actually are you here.

PN55

MR HAWKEY: Well, there are two reasons and probably one principal reason, sir, and that is that Mr Gilhome in his address to the electricians, made the very clear comment that we would be bringing the matter before the Commission and making the Commission aware of it and putting our position clearly on the public record.

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, all right, well, you have done that.

PN57

MR HAWKEY: So we have put forward to the Commission - and I am quite happy for this to form part of the record of today's exercise. I was trying to give the Commission some colour behind this statement so that you could appreciate where we have come from. I don't necessarily need to read it into transcript, given that it is now part of the formal proceedings, in any event.

PN58

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if the objective from Mr Gilhome is to make the Commission aware that there might be an ongoing problem regarding implementation of what was agreed in '99, that has now been done. Mr Glover is - seems to be more than keen to have some discussions with the company regarding, what may be perceived to be, outstanding issues - indicating to the Commission - Mr Glover has, as far as he is concerned, things are on track. Is it not appropriate for the Commission simply to indicate to the parties that if you think there are outstanding issues, have a chat to Mr Glover about them.

PN59

If, over the next few days you believe that those discussions haven't resolved any outstanding issues as the company perceives them, and then give us a yell and I will re-list it, and we will see where we go and what are those outstanding issues as you, the company perceives them. Is that - I mean you have achieved your objective. I am aware of the issue now, and we will see where we go with it. I mean, does that not seem to be a reasonable outcome?

PN60

MR HAWKEY: On the face of it, yes, sir. However, there is one other document that needs to go with the document I have just handed up.

PN61

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Yes.

PN62

MR HAWKEY: Sir, this is a document outlining milestones that the electricians are expected to achieve for Mr Gilhome and the company to be satisfied that they are genuinely participating in the predictive maintenance process, as well as having the competency standards properly implemented.

PN63

MR GLOVER: If I might intervene, Commissioner, just for one second. Sorry, Al. Just to sort of short circuit it, the ETU members have agreed to that document.

PN64

THE COMMISSIONER: To the timetable?

PN65

MR GLOVER: To the timetable.

PN66

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?

PN67

MR GLOVER: Yes, Commissioner, and the only thing is, is the ongoing threat that Mike Gilhome keeps on throwing on the back of these - of my members.

PN68

THE COMMISSIONER: About outsourcing?

PN69

MR GLOVER: About outsourcing. It is a red rag to the bull. So if he continually does that, then there might be problems down the track.

PN70

MR HAWKEY: Sir, in terms of this document, my only comment to it other than explaining what it is about is to indicate that it differs from the document left with the electricians on the 11th, insofar as in the achievement yes/no column, on the 11th, the electricians indicated back to us that yes, they accept the document and commit to achieving the outlined milestones. So that is the only difference there.

PN71

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Well, that is a forward step. So it is now a matter of you putting to Mr Glover and the electricians what the company's perceived difficulties are. If they have accepted the timetable, if they have accepted the model that has been put forward, and if there is any issue regarding maybe some detail of that model or the competencies that are required, then they need to be put on the table and explained to Mr Glover and the electricians, and as I have indicated, that can be done over the next few days and if there is still an outstanding problem as the company perceives it I am happy to re-list the matter.

PN72

But I am more than happy for the parties to have some further discussions in order to clarify what the company's perceived problems are. I have got to say I am not - if the model has been agreed to, if the milestones to achieve have already been agreed to, I am not quite sure what the outstanding issues might be.

PN73

MR HAWKEY: Right at this minute, sir, there isn't an outstanding issue.

PN74

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN75

MR HAWKEY: We have - last week we spoke with Mr Williams and indicated to him that we required a meeting of the electricians to nominate their members for the MIT, the RIT, the training committees and the EMTs, which are a whole range of teams.

PN76

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN77

MR HAWKEY: We were advised by Mr Williams that he wanted a week clear to give notice to his members for attending at that meeting. That meeting is scheduled for next Monday, I believe at 7.30 am, and pending the outcome of that meeting, sir, we are relatively content. We have handed out the skills audits to everybody and we are in the process of working through those with the electricians, and in terms of another outstanding issue relating to evaluating qualifications and what competencies might flow out of them, that matter is also in hand.

PN78

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN79

MR GLOVER: Commissioner, just one - - -

PN80

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Glover.

PN81

MR GLOVER: One other issue that is very important to the members is a commitment from Mike Gilhome on job security. We are still waiting for a signed document. When the agreement to go into predictive maintenance was the agreed position, part of that agreed position was job security for the members out at ACI Spotswood, and that was a commitment Mike Gilhome had granted. But we are still waiting for the letter that is going to state virtually that moving into predictive maintenance isn't going to cost jobs out at ACI Spotswood. Okay? That is - I don't know whether Alan can inform us how the letter is going, but that would be a good faith move if a letter was brought forth.

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Hawkey?

PN83

MR HAWKEY: Sir, Mr Gilhome has given assurances, as I understand it, at Penrith, and those assurances apply equally here. As I understand it, the implementation of predictive maintenance is not going to, of itself, cause any loss of jobs.

PN84

THE COMMISSIONER: That commitment to Penrith which would apply equally here, was that provided in writing?

PN85

MR HAWKEY: Mr Gilhome left me with the impression it was in the agreement. However, I haven't been able to put my finger on it. I can ensure that the manner by which that commitment was given in Penrith can be replicated for the CEPU here. We have no problem with that.

PN86

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. The meeting that is scheduled for next week, does that include Mr Gilhome?

PN87

MR HAWKEY: No, sir. That is a meeting of the union members.

PN88

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN89

MR HAWKEY: To nominate their representatives.

PN90

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right. Well, thanks, Mr Hawkey. If you could just find out how the commitment was given to the establishment in Sydney, and if that same commitment could be provided in the same format to Spotswood that would, I think, be of assistance. Mr Glover?

PN91

MR GLOVER: If the Commission pleases. Here, at ACI Spotswood, and during the six months in talks that were in and out of the Commission, and plus the track record of Mike in giving verbal commitments and doing backflips, we required and asked for written confirmation on job securities, and that was agreed upon. Now, that is what we would expect, is written and signed. If he can give it out verbally, surely he can write it.

PN92

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if that becomes an issue, then again, Mr Glover, you are at liberty because the file is now before the Commission regardless of who instigated the file, if that becomes an issue you are at liberty to ask the Commission to re-list the file, and if necessary ask Mr Gilhome to come along to answer why any assurance that was supposed to be provided in writing has not.

PN93

MR GLOVER: Yes, thanks, Commissioner. I would - maybe, with the good faith and the guys agreeing to this timetable that Alan might - it might be good if a couple of weeks before this timetable takes place that we receive that written assurance on job security.

PN94

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I am sure that Mr Hawkey will take back to Mr Gilhome the Commission's comments. Okay? Nothing further?

PN95

MR HAWKEY: Well, just in terms of job security in any event, sir, clause 33 of our current EBA, (i) reads:

PN96

The parties recognise that a stable, committed and skilled workforce will assist in providing job security. The company undertakes that no employees will be made forcibly redundant as a result of the implementation of workplace change items under this agreement...

PN97

and the preventative maintenance program, sir, is clearly covered under this agreement. So there is at that level already a commitment to all parties that the implementation of the preventative maintenance program will not cause redundancy.

PN98

THE COMMISSIONER: I just go on the statement that you have provided, Mr Hawkey, which is supposed to be attributed to comments made by Mr Gilhome, where he says:

PN99

If, however, you do not enter predictive maintenance and progress on a reasonable basis in line with the attached timetable/action plan the company will contract out the Spotswood electrical function. In short, you are either in or out.

PN100

Now, if the commitment is in the agreement, if the commitment was given in Sydney in writing, and it is a common commitment that would apply to Spotswood as well, then it should be in writing. If the understanding give to the Spotswood electricians was you agree to the protective maintenance, you agree and implement the model and the maintenance program, then there is to be job security, Mr Glover makes a point. If it is good enough to give it verbally it is good enough to give it in writing as well.

PN101

MR HAWKEY: I understand that, sir.

PN102

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right. Either party is at liberty to have the matter re-listed if they believe - maybe next time everybody meets with Mr Gilhome you could commence with a group hug. That might help settle things down a bit. The Commission will stand adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [12.10pm]