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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Workplace Relations Act 1996 11409-1
COMMISSIONER SMITH
C2005/1825
CPSU, THE COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC SECTOR UNION
AND
TELSTRA CORPORATION LIMITED
s.99 - Notification of an industrial dispute
(C2005/1825)
MELBOURNE
10.18AM, THURSDAY, 28 APRIL 2005
Continued from 10/2/2005
PN22
THE COMMISSIONER: Any change in appearances? Yes?
PN23
MR D IRONS: David Irons from the CEPU, seek leave to intervene in this matter.
PN24
THE COMMISSIONER: Any objection to the application for leave?
PN25
MR VEENENDAAL: No, Commissioner.
PN26
THE COMMISSIONER: Leave is granted. Now, Mr Veenendaal?
PN27
MR VEENENDAAL: Thank you, Commissioner. Firstly, Commissioner, I would just like to thank the Commission for listing this matter which was only notified to you on Monday, the 25th for hearing at the speed you have done that. Obviously the issue is an urgent issue in that we are dealing with a dispute in relation to rostering arrangements for three call centres; one on the Gold Coast, in Bundall, one in Townsville and one in Maroochydore relating to a decision by Telstra to direct some staff to work on what is a public holiday under the GCOS Telstra Award on 2 May.
Before I get into the detail of the submissions, Commissioner, I would like to firstly tender an order, if I could?
EXHIBIT #CPSU1 INTERIM ORDER
PN29
MR VEENENDAAL: Thank you, Commissioner. What I would like to do is propose two things; firstly, I'd like to take the Commission through the order and seek leave from the Commission to amend the order. The amendments will be based on information that Telstra has provided to me this morning in relation to a number of employees who are identified at clause 2.1.2 of the order. They are the employees who as of yesterday we allege were employees directed to work on the Labour Day holiday, who had indicated to the CPSU that they had a desire to take leave on Labour Day for one or more reasons.
PN30
Telstra has provided me with some information this morning which allowed me to indicate that some of the employees upon which this controversy rests can in fact be deleted from the order. The second thing, before I get into that, Commissioner, what I would like to propose is that once we have done that, on the basis that the Commission accepts the orders, we'd like to adjourn briefly into private conference so that we can see if we can sort out the remainder of the employees on the order in a more reasonable way than proceeding to hearing.
PN31
In respect to the order, Commissioner, it's set out in this way, in terms of the parties bound, that the order is binding on the CPSU obviously, at 2.1.1 and at 2.1.2 Telstra in respect of certain employees who are identified in the order. Those employees are in three categories. The first category is employees identified at the Bundall call centre at 10 Holden Street in Queensland. Now, there are a number of employees identified in the list, eight in all, and from the information that Telstra's provided me, I can indicate to the Commission that all but one of those employees can now be deleted from the list.
PN32
They are as follows: Jill Scott, Dale Wells, Tracey Zygnerski, Laura La Rosa, Anne Patterson, Stephen Heron and Anne Marie Freeman. In other words, Commissioner, Suzanne McDougall is the only employee upon which a controversy rests at the Bundall Gold Coast call centre. If I can take the Commission to the second paragraph? That deals with a range of employees at the Beach Road, Maroochydore call centre. There are four employees listed there. From the information that Telstra's provided me this morning, I can indicate that Angel Goodson-Adam and Bronwyn Wallis-Smith can be deleted in that Telstra has said they're no longer required to work on the day, and that means Debbie Byrne and Judith McDonald remain on the list.
PN33
If I can take the Commission to the third paragraph which deals with the range of employees at Telstra's call centre at 7 Tomlin Street, Townsville. This is a more complex situation, and I'll try and deal with it as best I can, Commissioner, given the information has only just been provided to me. There are 28 employees listed on the list, as I see it. Telstra has indicated to me that a range of those employees are now no longer required to work. I'll go through those and then I'll deal with a different matter in a moment relating to the instrument that Telstra alleges some of these employees who remain required to work are employed pursuant to.
PN34
The first person to be deleted is Janice Uhlmann; the second person is Tracey Cutter; the third person is Shelly Gowley; the fourth person is Michelle Tredrea, then Jo Berry, Kristine Currie, Rosa Boothroyd, Susan Case, Paula Simpson, Caroline Gayle Nolte, Tony Nixon, Andrea Francis, Kylie Leech, Ryan Niewwendaal - it sounds a bit like my name, Commissioner, it's a concern, isn't it? So those employees, Telstra has advised me, are now no longer required to work on Labour Day and therefore there's no controversy in relation to those employees.
PN35
The situation in respect to the remaining 14 employees is a little more problematic. Telstra asserts that a range of those employees are AWA employees, and I may get Telstra to deal with that in a moment. I think Telstra is asserting that six of the remaining 14 are employees employed pursuant to the AWA and I assume that Telstra will make submissions along the lines that the Commission has no jurisdiction to make an order in respect of those employees, given that they are not award or agreement-based employees. So I might ask Mr Skene to get up and indicate who those employees are, and perhaps we can deal with that in a moment.
PN36
Or perhaps I would suggest we might be able to deal with that in conference in the first instance, Commissioner. But just to summarise, then, Commissioner, what we say is that there are 17 employees out of the list upon which a controversy for us still remains.
PN37
THE COMMISSIONER: What do you say the proposed conference is about?
PN38
MR VEENENDAAL: The proposed conference would be about two things; firstly, to deal with the issue of the instrument so that we can understand what Telstra is saying about the employees at the Townsville call centre in respect to who an order may apply to, and secondly, we'd obviously seek to resolve the matter finally in conference, in terms of trying to avoid the matter going to hearing if possible, Commissioner.
PN39
THE COMMISSIONER: Has something happened from yesterday to today that gives you encouragement that that's possible?
PN40
MR VEENENDAAL: Well, I can indicate to the Commission that as we understand it, there are less persons on the list. But I have to say that those persons remain important to the union and from our point of view, a controversy still remains in respect of those persons. But we're happy to put a position to the Commission in conference which would settle the matter subject to Telstra's views obviously.
PN41
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Skene?
PN42
MR SKENE: Commissioner, suffice to say for present purposes that we support the proposal to attempt to resolve the outstanding people on the list in conference. The reason that progress hasn't been made to date in relation to those people is largely that Telstra doesn't have any information as to the reasons that those people do not wish to work. I should indicate that a review of the 40 people who were originally on the list identified that a large number of them, we say some 29 - a further person was added this morning by the union - have already been accommodated.
PN43
So Telstra remains prepared to accommodate people who for reasons fall into the category that we discussed last time we were before you. Given that Telstra doesn't yet have any information about those reasons, I think Mr Veenendaal's indicated this morning that he has some further information that may be made available in conference. That may well trim our list even further. It may well completely resolve the matter, but in those circumstances, it seemed prudent to us to explore that issue first. I think both parties have agreed that it's not desirable that unless the whole matter is to be resolved in that way, that we should spend an exhaustive amount of time in further conciliation. Really, it's a matter of simply airing the reasons and seeing whether they fall within the relevant category.
PN44
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. I will adjourn briefly and then I will join the parties in private conference.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.20AM]
<RESUMED [11.27AM]
PN45
THE COMMISSIONER: I have conferred with the parties, and at least in relation to the application for the interim order, agreement is not possible. Therefore, I will hear from the parties. Yes, Mr Veenendaal?
PN46
MR VEENENDAAL: Thanks very much, Commissioner. I might just start off, Commissioner, by seeking leave to amend CPSU1 which is the interim orders previously tendered. If I can take the Commission to 2.1.2? If I can indicate to the Commission that I'd like, to the extent that I can, withdraw the submission in relation to Suzanne McDougall who we said was in fact out of the application in that - I beg your pardon. We were saying that she was in the application in that Telstra had indicated she was required to work and I indicated that Dale Wells was out of the application.
PN47
Telstra has indicated to me that the position now is that Dale Wells is in fact required to work, so if I can seek to amend the order to insert Dale Wells and to excise Suzanne McDougall. Now, that was an error. There hasn't been a change particularly in the position, as I understand it. That was an error.
PN48
THE COMMISSIONER: So the only person remaining under 2.1.2 in relation to Bundall is Dale Wells?
PN49
MR VEENENDAAL: That's correct, Commissioner. If I can indicate that there's been a change in respect to the Maroochydore call centre. Previously we submitted that Debbie Byrne and Judith McDonald were required to work in the application. I can now indicate subsequent to conciliation proceedings that Judith McDonald can in fact be excised from the application, in that Telstra has indicated to me that she will no longer be required to work. So that leaves Debbie Byrne in the scope of the application.
PN50
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN51
MR VEENENDAAL: In respect to Townsville, if I can take the Commissioner to that paragraph of the orders? The situation is this,
that the only change there is that of the list of 14 people I indicated earlier, I included Cliff Urquart. I have been advised,
subsequent again to conciliation proceedings by Telstra, that
Cliff Urquart is out of the application and therefore we ask that he be excised from the order on the basis that Cliff Urquart will
no longer be required to work on the day. I won't go through the list of employees who are required to work, I have already done
that at first instance.
PN52
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
MR VEENENDAAL: Commissioner, if I can call John Jamieson, and if I can tender at this stage, his statement?
<JOHN JAMIESON, AFFIRMED [11.30AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR VEENENDAAL
PN54
MR VEENENDAAL: Just for the record, Mr Jamieson, can you state your full name and place of work?---John Jamieson, 11575, Burke Street, Melbourne.
PN55
Do you have a copy of your statement before you, Mr Jamieson?---Yes, I do.
PN56
Can I ask you to review the statement, including the three attachments?---Yes, I have done that.
PN57
Having reviewed the statement, do you say that the statement is true and correct?
---Yes.
I formally tender the statement, Commissioner.
EXHIBIT #CPSU2 STATEMENT OF JOHN JAMIESON
PN59
MR VEENENDAAL: Mr Jamieson, there are just one or two things I want to deal with. If I can take you to paragraphs 4 and 5 of your statement? If I can ask you to review your evidence?---Yes.
PN60
You mention various technological systems that Telstra has which are used for routing call centre traffic. They include line 5 total view, Cognos RT100 and RT1000. Could you explain to the Commission how those technologies are used to route traffic across call centres in Telstra?---Yes, I guess I could. As I've said in my statement, I've worked for Telstra for many years. They are constantly upgrading, updating their systems, quite obviously, and they are extremely large inbound and outbound call centres, so they need and have the ability to rout calls to where the people are, rather than where they aren't. They determine in advance and on the day obviously where the calls need to go, the numbers, various factors affecting various needs coming in. It's a relatively simple process that they use and is reasonably effective, one would suggest, sometimes.
PN61
When you say various factors, would one of those factors include call traffic?
---Call traffic, yes. They respond to their campaigns, obviously. Telstra have various campaigns throughout the year, throughout
the days and nights. They also make allowances, one would assume, for various factors that change from day to day, whether it be
sick leave, holiday leave. One would hope public holidays arriving in certain areas, certain states.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XN MR VEENENDAAL
PN62
So if there was heavy traffic in Bundall on Labour Day or Maroochydore on Labour Day or Townsville on Labour Day, what would Telstra do in respect to routing the traffic?---Well, I can't say what they'd do. One would assume what they would do is they have the ability to divert traffic from a busy centre, whether it be Bundall, Townsville or wherever, to another site within Australia.
PN63
You say in your evidence that there are 149 call centres across Australia. Some of those call centres would be outbound call centres, wouldn't they?---Yes. Yes.
PN64
Would Telstra have a capacity to route heavy demand in the three call centres that I have mentioned in Queensland, to any of the other 146 call centres across Australia, including outbound call centres?---Yes.
PN65
How would they do that?---Well, I can't say what Telstra's policy or understanding is, but - - -
PN66
I withdraw that. In your experience, how would Telstra do that?---Well, as I've said in my statement, they do have - for want of a better word - a head office, a mainframe type of area in Queensland that handles the - that's Telstra Call and Resource Centre in Brisbane. They monitor and look at where the calls are coming in throughout Australia, on a per second basis, quite obviously. At all of the other call centres, there is a particular person in each call centre, sitting in front of a screen, that simply has the call traffic on there. A lovely colour-coded thing; green, red, blue, purple, pink, whatever colour, stating how the traffic is coming. If they're busy, it'll be one colour, if they're slack, it'll be another one and they have a very simple ability to switch queues, to call on people, say right, guys, off that, you. Stop your outbound. Log out and log in to the inbound queue. Take calls from wherever. We've had a successful campaign or we're exceeding our expectations.
PN67
So is your evidence that even though a person, based on your knowledge and experience of past conduct in Telstra, that if a person on Labour Day on 2 May in an outbound call centre was obviously making calls outside of Telstra, is your evidence that they could, as a result of Telstra's routing technology, quite easily be transferred to take inbound calls?---Yes.
PN68
If the traffic at some of those calls centres - - - ?---If inbound, can use other centres, or at the same centre in fact. You would have outbound and inbound in the same centre, obviously. They can ask them to go off that particular queue or that campaign and go over to inbound. Yes.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XN MR VEENENDAAL
PN69
All right. I have nothing further, Commissioner.
PN70
THE COMMISSIONER: Any cross-examination?
PN71
MR SKENE: Commissioner, can I just indicate, I was provided with this statement immediately before the witness was called. If I could request just a very short adjournment to obtain instructions in relation to a couple of aspects of it? I imagine I'll only need 10 minutes.
PN72
THE COMMISSIONER: Sure. In the event that you need to ask the question, Mr Skene, I grant you leave to appear.
PN73
MR SKENE: Thank you, Commissioner. I was assuming I was here on formal leave in relation to at least the jurisdictional questions.
PN74
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN75
MR SKENE: Yes. But I am glad that you have clarified that. Thank you.
PN76
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. The matter is adjourned for 10 minutes.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.38AM]
<RESUMED [11.57AM]
PN77
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
MR SKENE: Thank you for that time, Commissioner.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SKENE [11.58AM]
PN79
MR SKENE: Mr Jamieson, in your evidence you said that you were asked some questions about what would happen if there were heavy traffic in Bundall. Do you recall that?---In Bundall?
PN80
Yes?---Or any particular call centre? Yes.
PN81
Yes, and you were asked whether that could be rerouted and you said that you assumed that it could be rerouted. Now, you don't know the volume of calls required to be handled by Telstra on Labour Day, do you?---In numbers? No, quite obviously I don't know the numbers.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR SKENE
PN82
You don't know how many people are required to handle that volume of calls, do you?---Yes. You've told me that you require 80 per cent of the numbers that you've given us for Bundall.
PN83
Yes, for that particular call centre, but you don't know what the requirement is in other call centres, do you?---I know - all that I handle most certainly in Victoria, yes, I have reasonably good ideas of Telstra's grade of service requirements and the percentages and all that. Pretty well, yes, I do.
PN84
I am talking about how many people are required to answer calls on that day in what you say in your evidence is 149 centres, you don't know what the capacity, the number of people required, in each of those centres is, do you?---I know if there's 149 people at that centre, that at any given time - - -
PN85
No, Mr Jamieson, I am asking you a question about paragraph 5 of your witness statement. Perhaps just have a look at that?---Yes, I've read that.
PN86
You talk about 149 call centres across Telstra?---Yes.
PN87
Employing approximately 8500 directly-employed staff?---Yes.
PN88
Then you talk about 2500 contractors?---Yes.
PN89
Now, of those people, you don't know how many of them are required to work, to handle the volume of calls that Telstra is going to receive on Labour Day? You don't know that number, do you?---Well, I know that if Bundall, as you say, or the Queensland call centres, account for 18 per cent.
PN90
No, Mr Jamieson, just answer - - - ?---I'm trying to answer you.
PN91
Just answer my question?---If I'm answering incorrectly, I'm sorry.
PN92
I am asking, do you know the number of how many people Telstra requires to answer the volume of calls?---At Bundall?
PN93
No, at the 149 call centres. You don't know how many employees, do you?
---What type of calls?
PN94
Any calls?---Inbound?
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR SKENE
PN95
Any calls? You don't know inbound, do you?---What do you mean, numbers? You've lost me. I'm sorry.
PN96
You have admitted a minute ago that you don't know what volume of calls Telstra expects to receive? You have admitted a minute ago
that you didn't know that?
---Well - - -
PN97
Now, what - - - ?--- - - - 5500 calls on that day. I'll say that, then.
PN98
Okay. Now, what I am saying to you now is that you don't know how many people Telstra requires to answer their number of calls that it's going to receive across its network on that day? You don't know how many people are required, do you?---They require every person that's scheduled on to work that day, which they know. If you want me to give figures for - for a particular centre or for Australia?
PN99
Well, either?---I'll say I know that the staffing levels that Telstra are required is governed by your grade of service. Now, if your grade of service is 80 per cent, I will say that you want 80 per cent of the staff to be onboard at any of those call centres at any day, including 2 May.
PN100
You're just guessing there, aren't you?---I'm not guessing.
PN101
You don't know whether to answer 80 per cent of calls would need 80 per cent of the staff or not, do you?---I did.
PN102
You say you do know that?---Yes, 80 per cent.
PN103
I will move on then. Now, given the volume and the capacity, you don't know the volume, you say you think you know how many staff are involved - - - ?---Well, from the figures Telstra releases, 5500 - - -
PN104
So it's based on that? Now, you don't know whether that volume of traffic can be accommodated by re-routing calls, do you? Because you don't know what the volume is? So presumably you can't know whether that volume of calls can be accommodated by re-routing?---From my experience, yes, it can be.
PN105
You say it can be?---Yes.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR SKENE
PN106
So you accept you don't know the volume, but you maintain that it can be accommodated by re-routing?---Yes. I claim that I do know the volume.
PN107
Well, you admitted a minute ago, Mr Jamieson, that you didn't know the volume?---Well, obviously 5500 - - -
PN108
Which answer is right?---For the Bundall call centre? We're talking there for the three Queensland call centres.
PN109
Yes, but there's - - - ?---I know the ability of Telstra to route the calls. That's what it's there for. If Telstra is that inefficient,
I don't know. That's the practice at the moment as I know it.
Mr Jamieson, you don't know how many calls Telstra is expecting to receive on Labour Day, on 2 May, do you? You don't know that
number?---For Australia?
PN110
For Australia?---I could soon find that out. It would be a normal day.
PN111
I am not asking you to find it out, Mr Jamieson?---No, I'm - - -
PN112
I am asking you whether you know?---Any more than you do, no. I haven't looked at what their programmed figures are, their predicted figures are.
PN113
Right. Given you don't know the volume, that you don't know the predicted figures, what I am putting to you is, you don't know - you can't know - whether simply re-routing the calls can accommodate that traffic?---Yes, it can.
PN114
I see. All right, Mr Jamieson, we will move on. Now, you gave some evidence in your statement here about some surveys that were circulated by the CPSU?---Yes.
PN115
You say in paragraphs 10 and 11 that in Bundall, 44 Telstra employees signed the petition and two Telstra employees filled out the survey?---Yes.
PN116
Maroochydore, 15 Telstra employees signed a petition. In Townsville, 38 Telstra employees signed the petition, and 34 filled out a survey, and then you give some other numbers to a similar survey in paragraph 11. Now, the figures that you give there don't take account of whether or not those employees have been accommodated by Telstra, do they?---No. Obviously not. These surveys were prepared and distributed and filled in prior, prior to any approval or disapproval by Telstra or whether they're - if they're not on their days off.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR SKENE
PN117
So in terms of those figures, many more - - - ?---Any more than they're EA or AWA people, I might mention also.
PN118
Yes, but many of the employees that are listed, the numbers there, many of those employees in paragraphs 10 and 12 may well have been accommodated by Telstra? You would accept that, wouldn't you?---Since.
PN119
Yes?---One would assume so.
PN120
Yes. No further questions, Commissioner.
PN121
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Veenendaal, any re-examination?
MR VEENENDAAL: Just one point, Commissioner.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VEENENDAAL [12.05PM]
PN123
MR VEENENDAAL: Mr Jamieson, just referring to the point that Mr Skene has just raised in relation to the surveys, it would be the case also, wouldn't it, that some of the employees who have filled out those surveys or signed those petitions in fact may not have been accommodated either? Is that the case?---They have not been, yes.
PN124
Some of them may not have been?---Some of them may - have not been.
PN125
Nothing further.
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks for your evidence, Mr Jamieson.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.05PM]
PN127
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?
PN128
MR SKENE: I understand that that concludes the evidence to be led by the CPSU, so in those circumstances we would propose to lead evidence from the only witness that Telstra seeks to call in relation to the application for interim relief, if that is convenient for the Commission.
PN129
THE COMMISSIONER: Who is giving that evidence?
PN130
MR SKENE: Mr Holden. He's outside.
PN131
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Thank you.
MR SKENE: I call Neil Holden.
<NEIL BRANDER HOLDEN, SWORN [12.07PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SKENE
PN133
MR SKENE: Could you please state your name for the record?---Certainly. Neil Brander Holden.
PN134
What is your occupation?---I'm currently acting channel centre manager for one inbound sales.
PN135
Just address your answers to the Commissioner, Mr Holden. Have you prepared a statement in relation to these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN136
If I could ask that the witness be passed a document?
PN137
Can you identify that document for the Commission, please?---Certainly. It is my statement.
PN138
Have you read that statement recently?---Yes, I have.
PN139
Do you have any changes? Perhaps if I could assist by taking you to paragraph 18?---Certainly, yes. That was what - paragraph 18 has a calculation error in the numbers taken into account there.
PN140
Right. You see the number 384 have entered into AWAs with Telstra. What number should that be?---My reckoning is that - well, my understanding is that should be 158.
PN141
THE COMMISSIONER: 158?---158. Let me just check that number.
PN142
Yes?---158 is the number.
PN143
MR SKENE: If I take you to paragraph 20, in the second last line you see there's a percentage of 71 per cent. What should that read?---That should read 7 per cent.
PN144
THE COMMISSIONER: 7?---7 instead of 71 per cent.
PN145
Thank you.
PN146
MR SKENE: In paragraph 36, you have listed there a table that records certain numbers of employees who have not been rostered to work?---Yes.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XN MR SKENE
PN147
When were those numbers current?---Those numbers were current at close of business yesterday. Obviously we're in a fairly fluid environment with this at the moment. There are likely to have been some changes to that.
PN148
What type of changes since then?---Primarily staff who we - who had - were in the - had yet to be determined if they were going to be working or not working on the day, have generally been granted the day off, having provided sufficient personal circumstances to warrant that, in regards to the custom - - -
PN149
Now, other than those comments, Mr Holden, is the statement true and correct?
---Yes, it is correct.
PN150
I seek to tender that, Commissioner. There is, in fact, an attachment that's not on the copies that I handed up, Commissioner. I'll distribute it separately.
PN151
Mr Holden, in your statement you refer to a document attached. You have just been passed a copy of a document. Can you identify that document for the Commission please?---This is the briefing document we rolled out to our staff last December in regards to our scheduling on public holidays.
PN152
For the purposes of confirmation, that's the document referred to in paragraph 26 of your statement?---That's correct.
Commissioner, I tender the statement.
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA1 STATEMENT OF NEIL HOLDEN
PN154
MR SKENE: Mr Holden, you give some evidence in your statement concerning Telstra's scheduling of its expected forecast capacity
for work to be performed on Labour Day. What are the systems that Telstra uses to make those predictions?
---Okay. The systems in regards to making the prediction would be twofold. The first one as regards to making a forecast for customer
demand would be data that's retained in Cognos, otherwise known as PowerPlay. It's essentially a database that retains certain operational
matrix, particularly in relation to customer demand as represented by calls made into the group and also the average handling time
of those calls. The result of that would give us - it does give us the forecast or the anticipated level of customer demand on any
particular day or time of day. That is then worked through Total View which is the rostering system which is essentially the program
that we use to determine which centres and which staff, et cetera, to make sure that we have sufficient people to meet that forecast.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XN MR SKENE
PN155
What systems does Telstra have regarding the routing of calls in its call centres?
---Certainly. Within the - its call centres, the additional system which isn't part of the forecasting process is the RT100 or
in some centres it's the RT1000. It does - there is a different system, essentially they're the same. They serve the same function.
That is a real time call monitoring system which allows the representatives, both within the centre and on a national level, to
monitor the amount of traffic we received on the day at hand and how we're performing in regards to our grade of service, again other
operational matrix that we need to be aware of.
PN156
Mr Holden, you have discussed there two concepts; forecast capacity and routing. What is the relationship between the forecast capacity
and the routing?
---Certainly. We would ascertain via our forecasting what level of traffic we're going to receive on a given call type. We maintain
a variety of call types which are based on product type and in some instances customer type that come into us. We have staff that
have - no staff member has all the skills to answer every single call that we receive, so each staff member is allocated a suite
of functions or a suite of services they can offer to the various queues or customers that we receive calls off. Once that's been
ascertained, once we've got the forecast for each of those queues, we would then be able to forecast on a national level, so we're
able to share, for example, the Move traffic we receive which is one of the more basic, which is a simple fixed line activation service,
and we're able to route that traffic on a national level to everyone who has that skill on a national basis. So it could - there
are Move centres represented everywhere. Hobart has elements of Move in it. There are staff in Perth who have it, and there's also
staff in Queensland, but we're basing it on a - because it's a national queue, a caller could make a call from any state in Australia
and be answered by a consultant in any state in Australia who has the relevant skill type.
PN157
So based on your forecast volume of calls for Labour Day, what is your capacity to reroute calls if a call centre doesn't have the
expected number of employees?
---Okay. That has already been built into the forecast. We do have the capacity to share that traffic on a national level and
that has been built into - or as it is on every day that we manage the traffic, that has been built into our forecasts already.
We have, on that basis, due to the fact that we're forecasting a reduced from normal Monday demand because there's a local public
holiday, we have a reduced demand on that day of approximately 15 per cent, in that we're anticipating we'll get 15 per cent less
traffic than we would on a normal Monday on that day. We have utilised other state centres that we have - obviously will be curtailing
training and other activities which may reduce our staffing presence in those centres, to maximise the resources they can offer.
Despite that taking place, we still have a requirement to roster the impacted Queensland centres here into the - into it.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XN MR SKENE
PN158
Now, the Commission has heard some evidence about two public holidays, or the CPSU has led some evidence about two public holidays last year, one in October in relation to the Geelong Cup and one in November in relation to the Ballarat Cup. What impact, as far as you're aware, was there on customer service as a result of those public holidays being afforded to employees?---Whilst I don't have the information at hand, those two were - two of the public holidays, we're not limited to those public holidays, which led us to - were part of the process, led us to in December bringing into place the way we intend - or we intended to schedule public holidays henceforth, which is to maximise our resources. Both those centres have quite key traffic in those centres. Bendigo, for example, has the Foxtel traffic - sorry, the Austar traffic in that centre and we're particularly exposed when we're not available to put sufficient staff on that queue. So it would definitely have negative customer impact on those days, as it was on both public holidays that year.
PN159
No further questions, thank you.
PN160
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Veenendaal?
PN161
MR VEENENDAAL: Thanks, Commissioner.
PN162
MR SKENE: I am sorry, there is one further matter.
PN163
There is just one further matter. If I could just ask that the witness be passed this document? I think the Commission has a copy already. I meant to tender that. Unfortunately, the copy that's being passed just has some pencil markings on it. If you want to see those, they're just - - -
PN164
Mr Holden, you have been passed a document. Can you identify that document for the Commission?---Certainly. This document is a reformatted version of a document that I prepared yesterday afternoon, after having had discussions by the phone with representatives, namely the centre manager or acting centre manager for three centres, in discussion regarding the names that were provided yesterday morning of what our current position or what dealings in this matter we had with those individuals in the centres requested.
PN165
That document was current as at yesterday afternoon, is that correct?---That document, as it stands in here, was current at close of business yesterday afternoon. As mentioned, there was some changes late yesterday afternoon and also through this morning, which is why we had some amended - there's been some discussions on it since then.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XN MR SKENE
PN166
What steps were taken to ascertain whether employees were EA or AWA employees? What did you do about that?---Certainly. The centre keeps records of each employment type that they maintain within the centre and it was simply a matter of - well, not simply, it was a matter of referring to the centre manager in question, who was able to provide that information. It's the sort of information we generally expect them to have on hand, quite easily.
PN167
Yes. In the working or not working column, can you briefly describe what that column reports?---Certainly. Not working pertains to staff who - and again, the only staff listed on this list are the ones that were on the document provided yesterday. Not working indicates that the staff member has, through different - well, the general - the outcome is that these are staff members who have provided details as to why they - personal circumstances of why they should not be considered to work on this day, and we have on reviewing our customer demand and some other arrangements we can make elsewhere to carry the load and balance it around, et cetera, these are staff we've been able to give the day off. Due to it being a public holiday.
PN168
Commissioner, I would seek to tender that document. I wish to do so as a confidential exhibit. Obviously it contains personal information in relation to the employment status of the relevant employees. In those circumstances, obviously we're happy to make it available to my friend for his inspection. I understand there's not a great contest about the status of the employees as being party to AWAs, but there may be a contest about whether they should be accommodated. So on that basis, I'd seek it be tendered on a confidential basis.
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. I will issue an order making it a confidential exhibit.
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA2 CONFIDENTIAL EXHIBIT
PN170
MR SKENE: Thank you, Commissioner.
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Veenendaal?
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VEENENDAAL [12.20PM]
PN172
MR VEENENDAAL: Mr Holden, you say in paragraph 2 of your statement that you have been acting in the position for four weeks, approximately four weeks? When did you start?---I started on 31 March.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN173
31 March?---Correct.
PN174
It's the case, isn't it, that the last public holiday that affected employees in call centres and in Telstra was 14 March, wasn't it?---The Labour Day Public Holiday in Victoria.
PN175
In Victoria, ACT and Tasmania? That's right, isn't it?---Correct.
PN176
All right. So this is the first occasion you have had to deal with issues relating to rostering in a public holiday?---In this role it's the first time.
PN177
All right. If I take you to paragraph 11 of your statement and if I can ask you to review that quickly? You say that Telstra has required more employees in recent times to work on public holidays than in the past. It's fair to say, isn't it, that Telstra has reduced its call centre staff via redundancies in recent months and recent years, isn't it?---In pursuant - in regards to the one inbound staff, front house staff, SCs, I'm not aware of redundancies over the last 12-month period.
PN178
Sorry, where?---Over the last 12 months.
PN179
Which call centres?---One inbound sales, which is the call centres we're referring to here. In addition to that, on review of some numbers which I was doing recently, we're actually employing the same number of staff in our call centres overall, today, as we have been for the last 24 months. So I'm not - I don't have - I'm not aware of an overall reduction in these centres.
PN180
Let me understand your evidence? You're saying that there have been no redundancies in call centres for two years?---No. I said I'm not aware of any redundancies in the last 12 months of customer facing SCs. In addition to that, our overall staffing levels has remained stable over the last two years as well.
PN181
In one inbound call centre?---In one inbound sales, which is my only experience in this particular - is regarding - and all this is relating to one - this is regarding to one inbound sales, yes.
PN182
Well, I put it to you that that's wrong and that there in fact have been redundancies in call centres, including inbound call centres
across Australia?
---Not in the last 12 months, to my knowledge.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN183
So you say there have been redundancies in, for instance, the last 12 to 36 months in inbound call centres?---The overall staffing levels require the same answer to that question. It is conceivable, I have no recollection of that. I would not be commenting on that.
PN184
So if I indicated to you that there had been hundreds or even thousands of redundancies following that 12-month period at call centres, you couldn't say that that's not the case?---I wouldn't be commenting on it. If that's your question, I would be able to get you the information, but this stage I would not be commenting on the size or magnitude of redundancies.
PN185
Would you agree with the proposition that notwithstanding your views about redundancies in the last 12 months, that redundancies, say in the last few years in Telstra including at call centres, may have impacted on this requirement for workers in call centres in more recent times to be greater, in terms of working on public holidays?---The situation is - the staffing level in the one inbound sales call centres is stable on what - we're not seeing a - we're not seeing a real change in the number of staff we employ overall in one inbound sales in the last 12 months.
PN186
No, that wasn't the question that I asked. The question I asked was, as a result of redundancies that have occurred in Telstra, including in inbound call centres in the past, would you agree that this may have contributed to Telstra's greater requirement now to have employees working on public holidays?---No. This - and particularly paragraph 11, I think refers to volumes of calls being received. It's not in relation to the number of staff that are - or the number of resources that are available to answer them, so where it says, "Due to the volume of calls outside normal hours increasing over recent times" we require the staff to answer, it doesn't - I'm not referring there at all to a number of reasons - - -
PN187
So as I understand your evidence, your evidence is that volume of calls have increased in recent times? Is that right?---Correct.
PN188
That increase in volume of calls has led to a greater requirement to work staff on public holidays?---Yes.
PN189
All right. It's fair to say, isn't it, that Telstra hasn't increased its staff in call centres to meet that volume increase, has it?---Because overall we have sufficient staff to handle that volume of traffic we've got today.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN190
Because Telstra's now rostering people to work on public holidays, for instance?
---Yes.
PN191
Yes. I take you to paragraph 16 of your statement. I just ask you to review that? You say that sales consultants of Galaxy, River Keys, which are two of the call centres which are the subject of this application, are answering calls from customers in relation to fixed lines. The other call centre at Zenith answers calls in relation to billing queries on fixed and mobile services?---Correct.
PN192
So those call centres don't take any other calls apart from those calls?---Under the billing, what we class as a billing Move call type, there is a suite of other - not - which are grouped under the Move family, if you will. There is a range of billing for various - for example, commercial customers or prepaid customers, for example, which fits under the Move tree, if you will. So it's an overall description for the call types those centres handle.
PN193
All right. Now, in terms of call centres across Australia who will be operating on 2 May, I will take you to fixed line calls firstly, could you tell me how many of the 149 call centres at Telstra would be capable of taking fixed line calls?---Okay. Fixed line, Move, the activations calls, regarding Move - - -
PN194
Well, the fixed line calls that you refer to in your statement at paragraph 17?
---Okay. The capacity to handle those calls would be - there'd be no more than six other centres within one inbound able to handle
that traffic.
PN195
Six other centres?---Yes.
PN196
Do you know which centres they are?---To specify, we've got two Salenet centres - no sorry. Move, we're doing - we've got two Stellar centres, one at Robina and one in Adelaide. We've got the Infinity centre which is based in Perth. The Arapura centre that is based in Darwin. We've also got the Hobart centre, which is based in Hobart. We do have another centre.
PN197
Do you know how many staff are in all of those centres combined, the six centres that you've specified?---The total capacity?
PN198
The total capacity on Labour Day?---So, the number of staff we will be bringing in on Labour Day?
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN199
Yes?---I couldn't give you the exact figure, but Labour Day for those centres is a normal scheduled day. In addition to that, we have tightened - in that, we have provided those centres are bringing in the same amount of staff as they would on a normal Monday. In addition to that, we have tightened up - obviously have a reduced annual leave allowance, which is again made up at other times of the year when we increase the annual leave allowance. In addition to that, reduced amounts of training and briefings et cetera will take place on that day to cover any potential shortfalls that may be caused by - - -
PN200
So it would be 1000 staff? Would that be a fair estimate?---That would be a fair estimate. There is a fair chance of - sorry, coming in on the day itself?
PN201
Yes?---Okay. It would be significantly less than that coming in on the day itself. We'd probably be looking to 500 to 600 to 700 people coming in on that day.
PN202
500 to 700?---Yes.
PN203
Okay. In relation to billing queries on fixed mobile services, how many call centres across Australia would be able to deal with
those sorts of inquiries?
---Okay. In regards - there are two distinct groups of staff, in that we don't have staff in that - in the centres who can handle
fixed and mobile inquiries. We have staff who can handle fixed or mobile inquiries.
PN204
Yes?---We would have - in the fixed we would have - we'd have a solid six to seven other centres nationally who could handle that traffic within one inbound.
PN205
Yes. Again, just focusing on that first, how many staff would be working on Labour Day?---Okay, and including - I'm including our industry partners in this obviously as well.
PN206
Yes?---It's a similar environment. Our call traffic in those queues is actually - our call traffic in those queues is greater, we have more calls go into the solutions or the billing centres, also their handling time is shorter, so the overall customer demand is similar. Between 500 to 700 staff would be approximately coming in on that day, once you're taking into account - we also obviously forecast into that an agreed percentage of sick leave and absenteeism as well built into our forecast.
PN207
Yes, and the mobile services?---Mobile centres, we maintain seven mobile centres nationally, that we've set up as one.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN208
With the mobile centres, there are some shift workers who work in those, aren't there?---All of the - the bulk of our mobile centres are open anywhere from 24 hours, 7 days a week to 6 days a week, 7.00 to 7.00, so the bulk of them, there are two exceptions to that which is the Burwood centre and the ..... centre who work more standard hours. Everyone else has a capacity or an expectation to be working shift - - -
PN209
Yes. Now, how many staff would be at the seven mobile centres that you have talked about?---On the day?
PN210
Yes?---A similar amount.
PN211
500 to 700?---Yes.
PN212
Just so I'm clear, there's 500 to 700 in the fixed and billing query call centres and a different 500 to 700 staff, isn't there, at the mobile centres?---They're quite discrete parts of the business.
PN213
Yes, all right. In respect to the fixed lines, and Galaxy and River Keys, there's a different 500 to 700 staff in the six centres that you referred to?---Whilst there is the capacity to - for example, we do have some staff who can take Move and Solutions traffic. We have some mobile - there are staff who can bridge that gap. They are dealt with as quite discrete units.
PN214
All right. So would it be fair to say that at the top end, in terms of your evidence, that about 2100 staff would be capable of taking some of these calls? Would that be right?---Approximately, yes.
PN215
All right?---Having said - sorry, just to go back for a second?
PN216
Yes?---You said to take these call types, but those are across those three call types.
PN217
Yes, yes?---Not specifically the call types we're referring to here.
PN218
Yes. I understand that not all of those people might be able to take some of the specified calls?---Yes.
PN219
Like billing inquiries. Yes, I understand that. With the mobile centres that you have mentioned, where there are some shift workers,
are you bringing in some of the extra staff that might be working at those centres to work on Labour Day?
---We are - as I said, we are rostering those as normal days for the staff. It is a standard Monday for most of these centres,
so for example the centre based in Perth, it is a standard working day for them. The allowance is made around the fact that we've
reduced the amount of overheads we're carrying on those days, to impact - the greatest amount of staff that we can apply to the situation.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN220
Isn't it the case that because they're shift workers, you could in fact bring more staff than what normally would be required to work on Monday to compensate for some of the centres that are involved in the public holiday in Queensland?---We roster and deal with our shift workers the same way as we - well, let me rephrase that. They are given a number of hours to work each week, depending on whether they're full-time or part-time. They're required to answer calls across a broad period of time. If we were to bring them in on this day, outside of paying them overtime to come in on the day, we would be in a situation where we would be removing staff from the opportunity - or removing our ability to answer calls at another time so we'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul to a certain extent, and then we'd be taking staff away from, say, Friday night to work them on a Monday. In addition to that, we are working as many as possible and generally a Monday is our highest staff day of the week.
PN221
Yes?---Well, it is our highest demand.
PN222
When you say you'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul, that's because they work so many hours, if additional staff were rostered - well, I put it to you that that is because if you brought them in, for instance, from Friday into Monday, they might work so many hours that you'd be required to pay overtime? That would be - - - ?---It's a mixture - it's a mixture of staff - the fact that there are many staff we don't have working on a Monday. Given the demand, most of our staff we have available come in on the Monday anyhow. In addition to that, we also would be in a situation where from a personal welfare point of view, we'd be working staff in excess of 36 point - their standard hours, which is something we tend to avoid doing.
PN223
But you'd agree, wouldn't you, that you could, in fact, bring additional staff in to work overtime in the mobile centres on Monday, to compensate for some of the concerns you have in the Queensland call centres?---We do regularly utilise overtime to handle small gaps that we receive during days and weeks that we forecast we're going to have, where we have insufficient staff. We would not - we have never been able to resource sufficient overtime to cover absences, entire absences of centres, which has been tried. We have had circumstances, not involving public holidays, where we've tried to do that and there is insufficient staff interest in working public - working overtime to warrant that.
PN224
All right. Have you seen a copy of the orders that the CPSU is seeking?---That was the document tendered yesterday, was it?
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN225
Well, it was a document tendered this morning?---Sorry.
PN226
Which has 17 names on it?---I don't think I have seen that, no. I saw the document yesterday which I think - - -
PN227
THE COMMISSIONER: I have handed the witness a copy of the amended version of the document.
PN228
MR VEENENDAAL: Yes. Mr Skene has just indicated that there's actually 15 names, I am sorry, Commissioner.
PN229
If I could ask you, Mr Holden, it would be the case, wouldn't it, that given that there are a range of call centres across Australia who can accommodate the sorts of inquiries that the three call centres that are the subject of this dispute, in terms of the work that the three calls centres do, it's fair to say, isn't it, that you could accommodate the 15 staff that we are seeking orders in relation to, by rerouting any additional work that couldn't be accommodated at the three call centres to any one or more of the other 18 or 20 call centres that you have referred to, wouldn't it?---That would not be fair to say, in my opinion. Rerouting the traffic has already been built into our forecast customer or staffing requirements in these centres on that day. The numbers that we've required which are reduced on from what the customer demand would indicate, purely because we're already maximising our utilisation of resources in other centres, does limit our - or curtail our ability to go much beyond the - or go beyond the number of staff we've already allocated the day off who have provided reasons up to this point. It's also further curtailed by the fact that due to an amount of customer demand, we have issued staff, normal full-time staff working on the public holiday, staff who would normally work an 8-hour day, a significant number of them are now working 6-hour days at their request in order to make the grade of service and allow them - mediate a response, I guess, as to having some time off on public holidays.
PN230
I think that's a definition, isn't it, Mr Holden? What I am saying is that you have a centre, and your own evidence indicates that you have a centre in Queensland which could move traffic into different queues in different call centres? That's right, isn't it?---There is no single one of our centres that is purely - has a traffic type it alone takes, correct. Some of them only share it with one other centre. For example, the Galaxy centre has a traffic type that is only shared with one other centre. Some of them share it over a larger body of staff.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN231
That's fine, but isn't it fair to say that the whole point of having that routing centre is to enable Telstra to monitor where queues are very high in particular call centres and to move that traffic to another call centre where the queue is lower? Isn't that the whole point of the - - - ?---The ability for us to route the traffic nationally on a virtual basis is exactly that point. It's where, if for example a centre is not available due to say high absenteeism on a given day or a - some other emergency or just we get higher than forecast amounts of traffic, we do have the ability on a daily basis or an hourly basis to be able to route that traffic on a national basis. We've already taken that into account with the numbers that we require to work in these centres, and that's why we have that situation, where we still require to work these centres up to a given point.
PN232
All right, but in the event that - if I could put a proposition to you, Mr Holden. In the event that, for instance in Maroochydore on Monday, the call traffic is higher than Telstra had estimated, how would Telstra handle that?---Okay. There wouldn't - we wouldn't talk in - it's semantics. There isn't Maroochydore traffic. There's traffic that's handled in Maroochydore, but it's part of a national pool that's shared between a group of centres.
PN233
Yes?---If that happened on the day, as it would happen on - if it was happening today, we would attempt to route - well, it would already be routed on a national basis, but the fact of the matter would be, as it would be on this day if we had significantly less staff than we already anticipated or we forecast that required on this day, there wouldn't be - there isn't staff sitting around waiting to receive the calls. We don't have extra resources. The net result would be the customers would not end up get answered despite being rerouted to another centre. Which would in turn lead to customer - lack of satisfaction with the customers due to abandoned calls and long wait times.
PN234
That issue about the customer answer rate, is there a statistic about that? A customer answer rate or a customer satisfaction rate?---Correct. We do take - well, there's two measures here. On an operational level, we have the grade of service measurement which is currently measured in - - -
PN235
What was that called, sorry?---Grade of service, GOS. Or otherwise known as GOS. The targeted amount for the centres in question, that is, 80 per cent of our customers getting answered within 20 seconds.
PN236
I see. Yes?---In addition to that, we do on a monthly basis, monitor our customer satisfaction levels, which is one of our key matrix that we aim to meet, and one of the key - although not - well, one of the key factors that influences the level of satisfaction our customers have with our service and thus our ability to retain those customers, is the speed at which we're able to answer their inquiries. So there's quite a different experience for a customer who's answered in 20 seconds to someone who's answered in 40 seconds.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN237
Yes, yes. Now, is it the case that Telstra always meets its 80 per cent grade of service requirements of customers being answered within the 20 seconds?---Like every target we've got, there are periods of time where we find it difficult for a range of reasons to meet the target that we've been set.
PN238
Yes. I put it to you that it would be the case that there are occasions where on non-public holiday days, that Telstra doesn't meet its grade of service requirement? That would be right, wouldn't it?---Again, there are situations on a range of days, public holidays or not, where we don't meet our grade of service, for a variety of reasons, which range from unforecast - the call levels being high, calls taking longer than was anticipated for a range of reasons, systems problems, and also staff not being available for a range of reasons as well.
PN239
In fact, I put it to you that if you look at the range of call centres and the range of different products Telstra has, and therefore the range of different inquiries from your customers, including the variations in volume of traffic which you can try and predict, but sometimes is unpredictable, it wouldn't be particularly uncommon for that to happen, would it, Mr Holden?---We regularly meet on an overall - on a monthly basis and a weekly basis over grade of service at our centres. There are situations where we find it difficult it on an hourly and daily basis to meet it, but generally as a rule we have been meeting for the last nine months, meeting our grade of service, which is 20 seconds.
PN240
But the proposition I put to you was that it wouldn't be particularly uncommon for you not to meet the grade of service requirements, in particular call centres, or in respect of particular product ranges?---The frequency of grade of service not being achieved, it does happen. I wouldn't say it's not uncommon, but it does - there is a - some are more likely to do it than others and that's mainly around the fact of the number of staff we have, that have a particular skill to take it, but I wouldn't say it's a not uncommon event.
PN241
All right. Now, if I can just take you to paragraph 18 of your statement?
PN242
If you could just bear with me for a moment, Commissioner. You say the Galaxy centre, that's the Maroochydore centre, isn't it?---Correct.
PN243
You say there are 78 staff members?---Correct.
PN244
That's right? Now, are you aware that Telstra produced very recently to the Senate Estimates Committee, and I understand if you might not be aware of this, but are you aware that Telstra produced staffing numbers to call centres across Australia, to Senate estimates?---I'm not aware of that, but I - - -
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN245
Can I provide Mr Holden with a document, perhaps, that might assist?
PN246
Now, at paragraph 18 you say there are 78 staff at Galaxy. Now, can I take you to line 5?
PN247
THE COMMISSIONER: Is that something you want me to look at,
Mr Veenendaal?
PN248
MR VEENENDAAL: Sorry, Commissioner. I beg your pardon, Commissioner.
PN249
THE COMMISSIONER: That's all right.
PN250
MR VEENENDAAL: I haven't got an additional copy. I am sorry. I haven't come armed. Perhaps Mr Jamieson can lend you his copy and I will formally provide it to you perhaps in a moment? My apologies for that, Commissioner.
PN251
THE COMMISSIONER: That's all right.
PN252
MR VEENENDAAL: If I can take you, Mr Holden, to paragraph 5 on page 1? This is under the heading, Telstra Call Centres as at 28 February?---Yes.
PN253
Now, can you see that line where it says:
PN254
Beach Road, Maroochydore.
PN255
?---Certainly.
PN256
That's the Galaxy centre, is it, that you refer to in your statement?---Correct.
PN257
It says there that there are 88 staff. Now, you say there are 78 staff?---Yes.
PN258
So Telstra has reduced its staffing numbers in that call centre by 10 in the last two months? Is that right?---Not at all. Well - - -
PN259
Well, which estimate is right?---Well, Telstra hasn't reduced its staff numbers. The reason I'd put forward for the discrepancy would be one of two things; (a) is general staff attrition which does happen for all our staff on a regular - on an ongoing basis in all our centres, and secondly - and that's staff-initiated attrition and also in some instances company-related removal of staff, not redundancies. Secondly to that, there would be a number of staff from a range of centres who are on a regular basis seconded to other roles in other centres who would not - wouldn't be included in February as the staffing numbers there, that potentially that will not be included as being part of that simply currently because they've been seconded to another role elsewhere in the business.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN260
So you know that as a fact, do you? Do you know that the 10 have been on secondment or there's been attrition?---Well, I'd be putting forward to, is based on this, it's the first time I've seen, as I mentioned before, the Senate's estimates document, those would be the reasons I would advise that I would believe there would find a discrepancy - - -
PN261
But you don't know that as a fact, do you? You're just surmising that that could be the reason for the reduction in staff?---That's correct.
PN262
It would be fair to say that the reason could be redundancies, wouldn't it?---I have no information that redundancies have taken place in that centre.
PN263
What you say is they could be resignations, which means attrition, probably. They could be seconded, or there could be some other reason?---Correct. Generally, if there was a - and our staffing levels in every one of our centres changes on a monthly basis, both positively and negatively as we recruit staff and also staff choose - or leave the business. There is a - it's a moving target that we're working with, so what is right at the end of February may not well be right at the end of March.
PN264
Regardless of the reasons for the reduction, the net effect, isn't it, is that there's been a reduction in the Galaxy centre of staff from 88 to 78? That's right, isn't it?---Currently, on these numbers, there is a difference in those numbers, yes.
PN265
Yes, in the last two months - - -
PN266
THE COMMISSIONER: Is it the same measurement? Does your figure include, as this one does, FTS, PTS, Casuals and Supplementary Workers?---My advice is the numbers that I'm working to are the full numbers of staff within the centre.
PN267
MR VEENENDAAL: All right. Now, if I can take you to line 7, which is the Tomlin Street call centre in Townsville. Now, that's the River Keys centre in paragraph 18(b), is it?---Yes.
PN268
Now, can you see the number there, at 164?---Yes.
PN269
And the number at 135, in your statement?---Yes.
PN270
All right. So there's been a reduction of 29 staff, is that right?---But there is a difference of 29 staff between those two numbers, yes.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN271
Yes. All right. So would your evidence be similar there, that it could be for a range of reasons that the staff numbers have been reduced? Attrition, secondment, some other - - - ?---With the information I've got on hand at the moment, those were the reasons I had put forward as being likely causes of the difference.
PN272
All right. If I can take you to line 8, the Holden Place, Bundall call centre?---Yes.
PN273
You see there, there's 139 in the list there, 139 staff? You see that?---Yes.
PN274
Sorry, I just should confirm that, that Holden Place call centre is Zenith, is it? Is that right?---Correct. My understanding is it is.
PN275
Yes, all right. Your numbers are 124, is that right?---Correct.
PN276
So there's a reduction in numbers of full-time equivalents of 15?---Not of
full-time equivalents. Of the head count - - -
PN277
Well, some of the - of the full-time, part-time, casual and supplementary
workers - - - ?---The total head count, the difference between the two - - -
PN278
The total head count?---Yes, the difference between those two numbers is, as you say, 15.
PN279
All right. Is your evidence the same there, that the reduction has been for a range of reasons; secondments, possibly attrition or some other reason?---Those are the reasons I put forward, yes.
PN280
Now, in terms of those differences in numbers, has Telstra done anything about recruiting staff at those centres, to bring those staff numbers back up?---I don't know what the recruiting process is in relation to those particular centres, but we are on an ongoing basis recruiting new staff at all our centres. The current round is taking place at the moment.
PN281
All right, but the staff numbers at the moment, obviously the staff numbers in paragraph 18 say - in that time, has the call demand changed at all?---Between February and May?
PN282
I withdraw that, yes. Between 28 February 2005 and the date of your statement, which is today's date, has there been a change in
inbound call demand at Telstra?
---Okay. Without commenting on - well, being unable to comment on the specifics at the moment, as exact numbers, my understanding
from the information I've seen is that the volumes of traffic are either stable or increasing over that period, yes.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN283
Either stable or increasing?---Yes.
PN284
All right. Now, Telstra has altered its position in relation to some of the employees who are now required to work in the three call centres that are the subject of this dispute, and you're aware that a number of employees in the orders that the CPSU sought originally have been given dispensation and won't be required to work on Monday; that's right, isn't it? You're aware of that?---I'm aware of the fact that a number of staff that were on the list provided yesterday have, during the course of yesterday and prior to yesterday, provided personal circumstances which are deemed to be suitable to what - not being able to work, taking into account the level of customer demand that we're anticipating on the day.
PN285
At paragraph 21, you talk about the grade of service requirement, of the 20 seconds, that you have referred to earlier in your evidence?---Correct.
PN286
Has the removal of those employees from the requirement to work on Monday impacted on the grade of service requirement for the three call centres that are the subject of this dispute?---It's made life a lot closer than it was previously. So whereas previously we were probably not going to get it easily, but we were going to get grade of service, now we are much more prone to any fluctuation in staffing levels in other centres and also call demand, we're more prone to now than we were previously. Having said that, we have managed in a range of other centres, which was already in play, to maximise the number of staff we're going to be utilising.
PN287
But you say that you can still make the grade of service requirement in the three call centres?---Based on our current forecast with the current staff we anticipate coming in on those days, we believe we will be making grade of service on that day.
PN288
I just take you to paragraph 23. If I can get you to review paragraph 23, particularly the second half, where you talk about the
grade of service at the Perth call centre, of 16 per cent on Labour Day. So that was what, 7 March, was it?
---Last year's Labour Day.
PN289
Last year? So that was 2004, was it?---2004's Labour Day.
PN290
So what happened this year, in 2005, Labour Day in Perth? Perhaps I will just withdraw that. Are you aware that Labour Day in Perth was 7 March?---I'll just check that. Yes, I am.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN291
You're aware of that?---Yes.
PN292
What was the figure for Labour Day this year?---Labour Day this year, my belief is that we made grade of service on that day.
PN293
So that means it would have been 80 per cent, was it?---We were close - we were at or close to the - we were at a relatively acceptable level this year.
PN294
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have many more questions for this witness,
Mr Veenendaal?
PN295
MR VEENENDAAL: Not many more, Commissioner.
PN296
THE COMMISSIONER: All right.
PN297
MR VEENENDAAL: So the 16 per cent there, that means what? They hung up or whatever? Is that right?---Yes. Well, not - the 16 per cent doesn't mean the remainder hung up. The 16 per cent means that the 84 per cent remaining were on the call for greater than 20 seconds. So that obviously increases the likelihood that our abandoned call rate will increase.
PN298
Now, given that this was in Perth which has a different time arrangement to the Eastern States, it's fair to say, isn't it, that all the other call centres where you could normally divert the calls to would have been closed at the time that this event might have occurred? That's right, isn't it?---In the evenings, from - in the evenings which is when we have the Perth centres handle their traffic, but the trick - well, the trick, the thing to keep in mind there is also we only offer that - we only open the queues later for customers in Perth, who are in turn impacted by the public holiday demand, bringing it down. So it doesn't really bear weight. Do you want me to rephrase that?
PN299
If someone is calling in Perth at 5 o'clock, the call centre might be closed in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria, that's right, isn't it?---It is correct, but having said that, where we have a local public holiday, we do see demand in that state or region drop accordingly. So when there's Labour Day in Perth, we see the demand in Perth drop because of that.
PN300
But surely the other call centres being closed might have impacted on that call rate, mightn't it?---No. Because we are still able to bring in - we need a reduced level of staff to meet the reduced amount of calls that we are receiving and what is an anti-social hour in the evening in the east, which is still in the afternoon in Perth. We need a reduced amount of staff to answer that call time.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN301
So you need a reduced amount of staff?---Correct. For example, if we - - -
PN302
I am not with you there?---Okay. If 5 o'clock Perth time, and what was then prior to the end of daylight saving, 8 o'clock eastern - in Victorian time, we would normally receive a fixed - a number of calls, on a normal day. When Perth is - it's a normal business day in Perth, we normally receive, say, X amount of calls and we need X amount of staff or a given amount of staff to answer that amount of traffic. On a public holiday in Perth, that amount of traffic which takes places at 5 o'clock in the afternoon Perth time, when Perth is available to answer that call, is reduced and thus we don't require the full breadth of staff to be able to answer that call, and thus we're at - it's easier to staff than if say Perth was missing on a - if we were unable to cross to Perth on say a day that wasn't a public holiday in Perth.
PN303
I will move on. This is the last couple of questions, Commissioner.
PN304
Paragraph 34, if I can get you to review that? You say you're aware that some employees have refused - you haven't spoken to those employees directly, have you?---I have not spoken to any of these employees directly.
PN305
All right. How have you become aware of those issues?---Certainly. On a - whilst we've been dealing with this particular public holiday and dealing on a regular basis with the centre managers in question for the impact on centres, the last meeting with them was yesterday afternoon, but we have been meeting on a regular basis to go over how we've been managing this and what sort of numbers, whether we were exceeding against our required staffing levels et cetera.
PN306
So you've talked to the team leaders?---Talked to the centre managers.
PN307
Sorry, the centre managers?---Who the team leaders report to, yes.
PN308
So the information you have about employees refusing to work, but have been unwilling to discuss their reasons for not wanting to work with their team leader is because the centre manager has talked to the team leaders who have talked to the staff, and you have talked to the centre manager about those issues?---Which is a fairly typical communication flow that we use, yes.
PN309
That's fine. Nothing further.
**** JOHN JAMIESON XXN MR VEENENDAAL
PN310
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Skene?
MR SKENE: I have a very few questions.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKENE [12.56PM]
PN312
MR SKENE: You will recall, Mr Holden, that Mr Veenendaal asked you some questions about the number of employees that would be available to handle certain types of calls and I think in relation to the relevant type of calls to be handled by the Queensland centres you said that there would be 500 to 700 employees involved and you said the total capacity was a normal Monday, that there was reduced annual leave allowance and reduced training. What is the purpose of those reductions?---Certainly. By reducing the amount of annual leave and also - and any activity which includes training and a range of things, basically means we have more people on the phone during the course of the day, which then maximises the resources available to answer customer inquiries on those days. It's a normal - it's the same practice we put in place on any day where we believe we may have not enough or will be closely-staffed against the customer demand we're going to receive. It's essentially battening down the hatches and trying to cut down non-essential work for the period of time we're going to be in that situation.
PN313
What account was given to those matters when you were developing your forecast capacity for the Queensland centres?---That was built into the forecast. We built the forecast around the other - the centres not in Queensland providing as many resources as we can on those days.
PN314
Now, you were asked some questions about bringing in additional employees, shift workers in particular, and I think your evidence was that you were robbing Peter to pay Paul. In terms of the capacity that Telstra has to bring in other employees, what is the impact of seat numbers in the call centres?---We do have a finite amount of seats within our centres. In a lot of cases, the number of staff, or employees, are in excess of the number of seats we provide. Not all centres are in that situation, but certainly a substantial number of them are. What we're managing there is a situation where we would hot-desk our staff members in order to maximise our resources. So we don't - even if we were able to oblige or have a specific number of staff, and particularly mobile centres come in on the day, we would not necessarily be able to find accommodation for them to come in.
PN315
Finally, you were asked some questions about the discrepancies between February figures and the current figures in your statement. What is the level of staff turnover that is part of Telstra in the call centres - - - ?---Certainly. On an annualised basis, we're currently seeing in Telstra somewhere between 18 to 20 per cent of our staff on - over a year leaving the business at the moment.
**** JOHN JAMIESON RXN MR SKENE
PN316
No further questions, Commissioner, thank you. It might be a convenient time.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.00PM]
PN317
THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Thank you. We will adjourn until 2.15.
<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.00PM]
<RESUMED [2.17PM]
PN318
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Veenendaal?
PN319
MR VEENENDAAL: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN320
THE COMMISSIONER: I thought your junior was about to address.
MR VEENENDAAL: Yes. I think he would be more than keen, Commissioner, if we let him, but I am not sure that I want to let that rabbit out of the cage quite yet. Can I tender an outline of submissions regarding the interim - the order matter, Commissioner?
EXHIBIT #CPSU3 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS
PN322
MR VEENENDAAL: Thank you, Commissioner. Obviously, I will refer to these submissions as I go along, Commissioner. The purpose of today's hearing, Commissioner, is the CPSU is seeking an interim order, or interim award from the Commission pursuant to section 111(1)(b)(ii) of the Act. The dispute relates to Telstra's decision to roster inbound call centre workers to work on 2 May in three Queensland call centres, and I made some initial submissions about that this morning, I won't repeat them.
PN323
If I can just refer to the Commission to CPSU1? What we have done for the purpose of certainty is identify particular employees. We don't seek a generic order which would seek to establish a right for no employees at the call centre to be directed to work. We understand that a number of employees are prepared to volunteer and we are obviously satisfied that that should occur and is consistent with the meaning of the current GCOS award. Currently, as I understand it, we're down to 15 employees which we assert should not be required to work and are being directed by Telstra to work.
PN324
I understand that Telstra will assert that seven of those employees are - our position is that we're not going to excise those employees from the order. We press in respect of those employees at this time. Does the Commission need me to take it to the terms of the General Conditions of Service Award, particularly clause 12.7 or - - -
PN325
THE COMMISSIONER: I am familiar with it, but you highlight what you think is appropriate.
PN326
MR VEENENDAAL: Yes. Does the Commission have a copy of the award?
PN327
THE COMMISSIONER: I do.
PN328
MR VEENENDAAL: The only provision that I would want to highlight at this time, Commissioner, for the purposes of these interim proceedings is that at clause 12.7 of the award, if I can take the Commission down the line of dot points there, I just want to point out that Labour Day is in fact a public holiday which is recognised pursuant to the current award. Of course, that involves Labour Day observed currently, which is scheduled to be observed on Monday, 7 May in Queensland. What I am going to do now in terms of the submissions, Commissioner, is allege a number of facts, a number of which we say have been substantiated by evidence that has been given, in particular by Mr Jamieson and also by Mr Holden.
PN329
The first fact is that, as we understand it, Telstra conducted briefings of staff back in December 2004. Those briefings involved the three call centres that are the subject of this interim matter, and at those briefings, Telstra indicated that it wanted to commence scheduling one inbound sales staff to take fixed traffic to work certain public holidays to meet customer call demand. The first thing I note there - and if I can refer the Commission to the attachment to Mr Holden's statement? I am referring here to page 2 of the attachment, which is entitled, Purpose of the Briefing.
PN330
The first thing we observe there is that Telstra does say that it seeks to schedule workers to work certain public holidays - not
all public holidays - so presumably there is some capacity for Telstra to not schedule workers on certain public holidays. We obviously
say that this is one. The briefing clearly indicates that Telstra will schedule staff at its discretion. So we say that there should
be no controversy about the fact that Telstra is trying to direct staff, and I noted in
Mr Holden's statement there are a number of references to the fact that Telstra asserts its right, or claims - alleges - it has
a right, and is asserting in these proceedings that it can direct staff to work on the particular day in question.
PN331
THE COMMISSIONER: I think you can assume that's agreed between the parties.
PN332
MR VEENENDAAL: Yes. In respect of the call centre Queensland dispute, and I'll just refer to the three call centres as the Queensland call centres, staff some time back were told by their centre managers that they'd be required to work on the Labour Day Public Holiday. It appears the situation now is that some staff who have specific reasons, which are accepted by Telstra, for not being able to work on Labour Day have been provided relief from the requirement to work. It is clearly the case, we submit, that there remain other staff who are the subject of our order of CPSU1, who have specific reasons for not wanting to, or being available to work on the day, but it's clear that those reasons are not acceptable to Telstra.
PN333
One of those reasons includes leisure, and we will submit that we believe that leisure is in fact a genuine reason for wanting to take the day off on Labour Day. We submit that Telstra is a large company with approximately 11,000 call centre workers nationally, either directly or indirectly. About 8500 of those are direct employees and about 2500 are labour hire employees. As I understand, all those labour hire employees are working in the call centres. So what we submit, and we rely on the evidence of Mr Jamieson in this regard, is that Telstra has the technological capacity to not only monitor call centre traffic, but to route calls to call centres around Australia based on operational need.
PN334
We heard evidence from Mr Holden that there is between 19 and 20 call centres across Australia who are capable of taking the type of traffic that the three call centres in Queensland are involved with dealing with. For instance, the billing and fixed line traffic. We also heard evidence from him that at the low point, 1500 and at a high point, 2100 employees, would be capable of dealing with some or all of that work, depending on their skills, across those call centres. Now, what we submit is that aside from the three call centres in Queensland, and of course, in respect to some staff in the three call centres in Queensland, all staff in the remainder of the 146 call centres in Australia will in fact be working.
PN335
As we understand it, the 19 to 20 call centres that Mr Holden identified do have staff who will be working on the day. So obviously
we submit that there is a capacity to route any excessive or traffic which can't be dealt with in the three call centres concerned,
to the other call centres that have been identified by
Mr Holden. We say that is a process that Telstra does regularly and is capable of doing on Labour Day. Now, We are aware, Commissioner,
that in the weeks preceding this hearing, a number of Queensland call centre staff have either signed petitions or filled out CPSU
surveys relating to working on public holidays, and particularly, specifically working on the Labour Day scheduled for 2 May.
PN336
The signatories to the petition, in our submission, object to Telstra's decision to direct employees to work on Labour Day. The respondents to the survey were provided with an opportunity by the CPSU to provide us with information about the specific reasons that those call centre workers did not want to work on Labour Day. Now, in Bundall, 44 employees signed the petition and 35 employees filled out the survey. In Maroochydore, 15 employees signed the petition and in Townsville, 34 employees signed the petition and 35 employees filled out the survey. There's no doubt that some of those employees - or there's a range of employees included in that list who are not the subject of these proceedings.
PN337
All we say here is that this indicates that there is a level of dissatisfaction out there in respect to the decision to roster employees on Labour Day. We also wrote to Telstra on 25 April to all the three call centre managers, demanding that Telstra alter its decision to roster the employees on Labour Day and reinstitute past practices. I note that in Mr Holden's evidence, it's conceded that it has been the past practice, including the three call centres concerned, to roster on the basis of volunteers only, and that this is the first occasion in respect to a public holiday that these call centre workers have been required to work, or some of these call centre workers have been required or directed to work.
PN338
Telstra has responded to that letter and has simply indicated to us, in a letter from Gerdtz dated 26 April that it won't withdraw its decision to direct employees to work on the Queensland Labour Day Public Holiday at Maroochydore, Townsville and Bundall. Now, it's our submission that Telstra employees in mobile call centres - and I refer to the evidence of Mr Holden in this regard - regularly are required to perform work on public holidays. As Mr Holden indicated, the difference in terms of the evidence of Mr Holden, we submit that the difference between these employees at the three call centres concerned and the mobile call centre employees is that they're shift workers.
These employees, at the one inbound call centres in Queensland are not shift workers. None of them are shift workers. As they're not employed as shift workers, we submit that it's not appropriate to direct them to work on public holidays. If I can tender an exhibit, which is an extract from the Mobile Enterprise Agreement, Commissioner? I am not tendering the whole document, I am just tendering an extract.
PN340
MR VEENENDAAL: Firstly, identifying the document, it is the current enterprise agreement that applies to mobiles. It's the Mobile Enterprise Agreement 2002-2005 in the title of it. If I take the Commission to the second page, and refer the Commission to clause 6.5? I might just quote the top of the paragraph from the agreement:
PN341
If you are a seven-day shift worker, that is, you are rostered to and work shifts regularly on Sundays and public holidays, you will be eligible for an additional week's annual leave after 10 Sundays worked as part of a seven-day shift.
PN342
Now, what that, as I understand it does, Commissioner, is establish a right to some additional leave if you work Sundays. That's not the point that we wish to make in respect to this provision, but what we say, either directly or impliedly, is that this is a provision which is in the current agreements which clearly indicates that it's shift workers who may be expected to regularly work on Sundays and public holidays. Now, if in fact Telstra has a capacity to work employees at these call centres on public holidays, who are ordinary workers, not shift workers, then why do we need a provision like this which makes reference to regular work on public holidays?
PN343
We submit that shift workers, pursuant to the current awards and agreements of Telstra may be capable of being directed to work on
public holidays. These workers are not shift workers and they shouldn't be working on public holidays and they certainly are not
capable of being directed to work on public holidays. If I can just turn to jurisdiction, but before I do that, I might just ask
Mr Skene whether in fact there is a jurisdictional objection that floats around this application, because if there isn't, I might
just move through these submissions and not address the Commission on this area. So I just want to hear from
Mr Skene - - -
PN344
THE COMMISSIONER: It's all right. Don't trouble yourself. Just go straight on.
PN345
MR VEENENDAAL: All right. So I can just turn straight to the merits of the case?
PN346
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN347
MR VEENENDAAL: All right. Before I do that, I just want to very briefly make some submissions to the Commission about the characteristics of interim awards. Now, interim awards are different to final relief, or orders in relation to final relief. They're different in three or four key ways; firstly, interim awards or orders are, by design in terms of the statutory provisions, an order which is an attempt by an applicant to ensure the speedy and just determination of an industrial dispute. In that sense, the Commission is capable of providing interim relief in relation to any matter that may be beyond its jurisdiction in the event final relief was being sought by an applicant.
PN348
Now, I understand the jurisdictional issue isn't necessarily at hand here, but I will refer to why I make that reference in a moment. Secondly, interim awards may be made in order to preserve existing conditions, and that's the Hoyts High Court decision that we rely on there. Thirdly, interim awards may be made before identification of all the parties to the dispute, and we rely on the decision, Bolton and Others (1994) 126 ALR 620, State of Victoria decision. Relevantly in this case, interim awards may be made in order to preserve the status quo in relation to conditions of employment and there are a range of decisions there; there's AMWU and Ors v Curragh Queensland Mining, a 1997 decision of the Commission at P7111.
PN349
There is also a decision in Electronic Plumbing v Allied Workers Union of Australia and Ors (1994) AILR at 246, regarding public holidays. Now, that's particularly relevant to this case, but the reason I raise the other issues about the parties and about a range of other things is just to indicate to the Commission that the nature or character of these sorts of orders are very different to orders in relation to final relief. Obviously, the test here is 50 per cent plus 1, the balance of probability. It's not a particularly high test, in our submission, and the Commission is capable, under its powers, of granting relief even if it's not certain that on merit a case has been made out at a very high level of onus.
PN350
In respect to discretion - firstly, do I need to take the Commission to those authorities?
PN351
THE COMMISSIONER: No. Thank you.
PN352
MR VEENENDAAL: In terms of discretion, we submit a range of grounds for the Commission supporting exercising its discretion in relation to the orders sought at CPSU1. The first one which I have already alluded to is that employees in Queensland call centres are not employed as shift workers by Telstra and should not in these circumstances be scheduled to work by Telstra as though they are shift workers. I rely on clause 6.5 of the Mobiles EBA in that regard. Secondly, the relief sought by CPSU, in our submission, would not significantly impact on Telstra's operational requirements.
PN353
In fact, it's our submission that the impact on Telstra's operational requirements is so insignificant so as to be immeasurable. In terms of the grading effect, the 80 per cent grading effect, it's simply immeasurable. We are talking here about 15 employees, Commissioner, across either 1500 or 2100 workers. Now, the percentages there are very small; 15 staff at 1500 workers is .01; 15 staff at 2100 workers is .007, in terms of the percentage reduction in staff available to Telstra if the orders are granted. We say that such a reduction in staff would be immeasurable and would add in fact no impact or certainly an immeasurably small impact on Telstra's operational requirements.
PN354
It is the case, as we understand it, that Telstra's principal reason for pressing is operational considerations. There are no other
considerations here. They are operational considerations. We also rely on the evidence of Mr Jamieson in that regard, in terms
of the Telstra capabilities for routing and also the evidence of
Mr Holden. Thirdly, we say that employees at the Queensland call centres have, unless they volunteered to work, historically observed
public holidays, and therefore enjoyed the benefits of public holidays pursuant to the General Conditions Award as a condition of
employment.
PN355
Now, this is important in respect of the Hoyts case and the cases I referred to in respect of the status quo. The Hoyts case does provide the capacity for the Commission to preserve existing conditions. We submit that it is an existing condition, that these employees enjoy public holidays, and historically they have enjoyed at the three sites concerned. Secondly, we submit that in respect of the two decisions that I referred to in respect of the status quo, that it is available to the Commission in terms of making an interim order, pending final relief being determined by the Commission, to preserve the status quo.
PN356
In fact, we would submit it's the key reason for interim orders being available to the Commission. By making the order sought, that would preserve the status quo, because these employees who have historically enjoyed public holidays at these call centres will enjoy the public holiday on Monday pending final relief sought by the applicant, by the CPSU. It's clearly, we submit, the case that Telstra is directing employees, some employees in Queensland call centres to work. It's clearly the case that a number of those employees who are being directed to work do not wish to work on Labour Day for a range of reasons, including leisure.
PN357
Now, I wish to take the Commission to a decision, and I might just tender this one, if it pleases the Commission. This is a decision of Senior Deputy President Williams. It is a stay application, an application for a stay order by an appellant. It's at Print Number P1966. Now, I take the Commission to page 3, the paragraphs aren't marked, but this is the third paragraph down from the top. I won't go into the detail of the case. It probably is a case familiar to the Commission anyway because the orders being appealed were your orders, Commissioner. So I won't - - -
PN358
THE COMMISSIONER: It's quite unusual to have one outside a select group of industries.
PN359
MR VEENENDAAL: I will just have to compose myself, Commissioner. Sorry. What we say is that this decision stands for the proposition that enjoyment of leisure on public holidays has been found previously by the Commission to be a legitimate purpose of public holidays. I refer to the learned Senior Deputy President who says toward the top of paragraph 3:
PN360
The purpose of public holidays is to provide employees with leisure time.
PN361
We also submit that the Full Bench of the Commission in the test case, as the term in that Federal Award, employees throughout Australia should be entitled to a minimum safety net of at least 10 public holidays plus one, ie. 11 public holidays, Commissioner. That's the EPU and Others 1994 decision at Print L4534. Now, under the principles of the National Wage Case, that Full Bench decision is recognised as a test case. What we say, Commissioner, as a safety net requirement, it does appear that if Telstra can direct workers to work on public holidays, there may be some impact on the intent of that decision, which was to provide public holidays to employees.
PN362
Obviously the award that's currently in place, the General Conditions Award, does in fact reflect broadly the Full Bench case in terms
of the test case standard or better. We also submit that the grant of this order will ensure that employees in Queensland call centres
are treated in the same way as the employees in other call centres, other than call centre workers in mobile call centres, in Telstra
who have been entitled to observe public holidays unless they volunteered to work. Now, Mr Jamieson gave some evidence in relation
to workers in other call centres - these are inbound call centres in Ballarat and Bendigo - at paragraph 6 of
Mr Jamieson's evidence.
PN363
He also gave evidence in relation to recent events in the Labour Day Public Holiday in Victoria. His evidence is, as I understood it when challenged in respect of this issue, was that these call centre workers were the beneficiaries, or at least were able to enjoy public holidays on particular local arrangements, or based on particular local arrangements, and they're specified in Mr Jamieson's evidence. In respect to Labour Day Public Holiday, it was local in the sense that it applied to two states; Victoria, Tasmania and ACT, a territory. As we understand it, and in terms of the evidence, we rely obviously on the evidence of Mr Jamieson, no employees in those call centres were in fact directed to work.
PN364
So part of the reason we seek this interim relief is to ensure that workers in the three affected call centres enjoy equity or parity in respect to other call centre workers across Telstra. The second submission that we make in that sense is that non-call centre workers in other parts of Telstra in Queensland and in particular, given the public holiday obviously is limited in the jurisdiction of Queensland, will be enjoying the benefit of the public holiday, so I am talking about the administrative and if I can characterise them as white collar workers across Telstra. So again, the grant of the relief would ensure equity for call centre workers in the three call centres.
PN365
So what we submit in that regard is that the grant of the order would ensure fair and just treatment of employees in Queensland call centres and we refer the Commission to section 110 of the Act in that regard. In addition, Commissioner, we say that the grant of the order would ensure that the objects of the Act, particularly at section 3(d)(i) which is a part of the Act - if you just bear with me, Commissioner, which I have just lost - 3(d)(i) is a part of the Act that deals with a general object relating to conditions of employment which involves the agreement of employers and employees at the workplace upon a foundation of minimum standards.
PN366
It's the foundation of minimum standards that in particular is relevant in this object, we submit. In respect to object 3(d)(ii), there's a reference there to effective award safety net, or fair and enforceable minimum conditions of employment, and obviously we rely on that object in respect to an entitlement to public holidays or to take public holidays as leisure. Other objects that are relevant, we say, are 3(e), object at 3(h) and also 3(i). It's fair to say that Telstra has had regard for some of those issues, and personal circumstances have been taken into consideration. We don't concede that Telstra has got that right completely in this case.
PN367
I want to deal with that now. There may be a number of employees who have been provided dispensation, but we say that there are a number of other employees outside of employees who simply seek leisure, appropriately in our submission seek leisure, but there are some other employees who may have some other reasons that Telstra should have regard for. I want to just deal with some statutory declarations that have been provided. The first one is by Margaret Thomas. Margaret Thomas is a person who works at the Townsville call centre. Now, I don't have additional copies here, Commissioner, so I am just going to have to deal with these and then tender the declarations in a moment.
PN368
MR SKENE: Commissioner, I should indicate that we will object to the tendering of the statutory declarations. It may be simpler just to cut to the chase on that issue. The union has had an opportunity to tender evidence and to deal with evidence. These statutory declarations haven't been put in. It's not appropriate to seek to introduce them now following the conclusion of its case, following Mr Holden having an opportunity to comment on them. I accept that they're statutory declarations, but in circumstances where the witnesses aren't available for cross-examination, we're not able to properly explore the material that's put. It's not appropriate to tender them now, Commissioner.
PN369
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Skene.
PN370
MR VEENENDAAL: Commissioner, as you know, I am not a lawyer, I don't have formal legal qualifications and I certainly didn't apprehend that I was incapable of tendering statutory declarations which we say are documents - they are documentary evidence - after oral evidence has in fact been received by the Commission. It's my common understanding in the appearances that I have made in the Commission that documentary evidence is treated differently, and documentary evidence, including a range of letters or other documents, are frequently tendered during oral submissions.
PN371
Now, quite frankly, if that is a proposition that is seriously going to be considered by the Commission, I would also advance that rules of evidence don't apply in the Commission. That's clearly what the Act says and it seems to me if that is a proposition that might be available or a submission that might be available to Telstra in the courts, it's not available to Telstra in the Commission.
PN372
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr Skene makes some very strong points. It's not so much the rules of evidence, it's questions of fairness that are appropriate. But refer to them.
PN373
MR VEENENDAAL: Thank you, Commissioner. If I can deal with Margaret Thomas firstly, she has signed a declaration as of yesterday, 27 April. Now, she claims in her declaration at various parts that in fact she has had discussions with the manager. There is an attachment, she has provided previous notice to the manager about her reasons for not being able to work. She has attached two emails. One is dated 21 April 2005, one is dated 7 April 2005. Now, both emails are addressed to Tracey McPhee, who as I understand it is the call centre manager. If I can take the Commission firstly to the email dated 2 April:
PN374
Ms Thomas quotes cultural or family reasons for continuing to honour and support public holidays which should be upheld and not judged.
PN375
So she's sent an email to the call centre manager indicating that for cultural and family reasons, she wants the capacity to uphold the public holidays. Now, that's a generic - as I understand it, it's in a generic sense, so it's not limited to Labour Day, but it includes Labour Day, which is scheduled for Monday, as we know. In terms of her email to Tracey McPhee - - -
PN376
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but you don't have any instructions on what is meant by cultural, do you?
PN377
MR VEENENDAAL: I don't have instructions.
PN378
THE COMMISSIONER: No. Very well.
PN379
MR VEENENDAAL: But she does quote family reasons as well. I do know
Ms Thomas personally and I know she's a devout unionist and I think Labour Day being a celebration of the 8-hour day, 8-hour leisure,
8-hour sleep arrangement, is probably the cultural arrangement she's talking about.
PN380
THE COMMISSIONER: It's just that some overseas observers think the long weekend is a cultural matter for Australia.
PN381
MR VEENENDAAL: I can't comment on that, Commissioner. I do understand some overseas countries enjoy the benefit of more public holidays than we do, but there are no doubt some which enjoy less benefits as well. Her email dated 21 April again seems to refer to public holidays generically, but then it makes a reference to Labour Day specifically:
PN382
The purpose of public holidays is to enable employees like me who would normally be required to work, to enjoy leisure time with their family and friends. As I am an employee eligible to take the day off on Labour Day, I advise you that I do not wish to work on 2 May.
PN383
Now, she's mentioned family and friends in this email, but the two emails combined, where she clearly mentions family reasons as a reason for not wanting to work public holidays, including Labour Day, and with the reference to families and friends in this particular email, we would rely on this for two purposes; firstly, to indicate that the purpose is other than leisure. It may include leisure, but there are other reasons. Secondly, because I understand there's a controversy about whether Margaret Thomas has in fact informed the centre manager at all or given reasons to the centre manager for her desire not to work.
PN384
We say the emails are clear evidence that she has in fact informed or advised the centre manager to that effect. Now, the second statutory declaration that I have is one from Dale Wells. Now, Dale Wells is the Bundall call centre worker who is required to work. Now, this is dated 27 April as well. It has been signed by a person who I understand is qualified to sign the declaration. What Ms Wells says, and I quote from the declaration is:
PN385
I want to spend time with my family on Labour Day as I have done through my 26 years of employment with Telstra.
PN386
So what we say is that apart from reasons of leisure, Ms Wells has given another reason, which is a desire to spend time with her family on Labour Day. The last statutory declaration is one from Debbie Byrne who is the call centre worker who is required to work at Maroochydore. Now, this was executed on the 27th. Again, it appears to be execute by a person who is qualified to execute a statutory declaration under the relevant Act. Three parts of the way down on page 1, it's quite a long declaration, but I'll just deal with this point. There is reference to an exchange of emails between the centre manager and Ms Byrne, so obviously we assert that we relying on the declaration that reasons for not wanting to work on the day have been provided to the manager. What Ms Wells says here is:
PN387
As of today, 27 April 2005, my STL -
PN388
Team leader, which refers to team leader:
PN389
- advised me that Telstra's stance will stand and did I have a specific reason for not wanting to work on Monday? I advise that public holidays are precious time that I have to spend with my family who also work full-time, but are entitled to public holidays. I was advised this reason was not good enough and that I would be required to attend work.
PN390
That's the declaration from Ms Byrne. We would like to tender those once
Mr Skene has had an opportunity to look at them.
PN391
THE COMMISSIONER: I don't think you need to tender them. I will just hear what you had to say about them.
PN392
MR VEENENDAAL: Thank you, Commissioner. In addition, in terms of discretionary reasons for seeking the orders, Commissioner, we say that the grant of the order is consistent with the current National Wage Fixing Principles which in our submission require a systematic approach to be taken in respect to proscribed conditions of employment in awards. Now, there was a reference in the Electronic Plumbing and Allied Workers decision that I referred to earlier. That's the decision at 1994 AILR 246. I can try and find that for you if it's necessary to do so, Commissioner.
PN393
THE COMMISSIONER: No, that's all right.
PN394
MR VEENENDAAL: On that occasion, the Full Bench indicated that a systematic approach to the proscription of conditions is required and there was a particular reference in the decision to there needing to be scrutiny of the Commission or decisions of the Commission which would necessarily have to occur for conditions to change.
PN395
THE COMMISSIONER: That's the Public Holidays test case, one of the decisions.
PN396
MR VEENENDAAL: Yes, that's right.
PN397
THE COMMISSIONER: I congratulate you for understanding it.
PN398
MR VEENENDAAL: The last reason, we submit, is that the granting of the order is in the public interest, and in particular we submit that unless the order is granted seeking relief, there may be disturbance on the site on Monday. In conclusion, Commissioner, for all of the reasons that we have advanced at the hearing and the reasons advanced in the submissions that we have tendered, we submit that the Commission should exercise its discretion to make the order sought on an interim basis in settlement of the interim dispute. Thank you, Commissioner.
PN399
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks very much. Mr Irons?
PN400
MR IRONS: Thank you, Commissioner. My comments will be fairly brief. CEPU involvement in this matter is restricted to the Maroochydore site where we have a number of members, some of which have indicated they did not want to work during the public holiday next Monday. Unfortunately, most of these members fall into a category of being people that no longer have childminding problems. They're generally a bit older, and they have been given that as a reason why they should be scheduled for work and should not get the Monday as a public holiday.
PN401
We have written to Telstra seeking to find some way around this matter and that is the way we would see as resolving it, given the lateness of our involvement, and we received a response from Telstra yesterday which indicated they would be willing to talk to us further, which we hope to do over the next 24 hours. At this stage we haven't been able to provide Telstra with a list of people that have been refused the public holiday and I would be hopeful that that would be done very shortly.
PN402
THE COMMISSIONER: What classifications are these persons in?
PN403
MR IRONS: The same classifications as those covered by the CPSU.
PN404
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you.
PN405
MR IRONS: With regard to the matter that's being discussed at the moment, the interim order, Commissioner, I would just like to make the very brief comment that the CEPU does fully support the CPSU in their submissions and leave it at that.
PN406
THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks very much, Mr Irons. Mr Skene, I am not going to trouble you to hear any submissions in relation to jurisdiction.
PN407
MR SKENE: Commissioner, the way I was proposing to approach things was
to - - -
PN408
THE COMMISSIONER: I hadn't finished. Nor to the extent it's relevant, the rules of the CEPU, and if you were considering travelling to merit, I don't propose to trouble you to hear you on that either. I propose to adjourn for 10 minutes.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.59PM]
<RESUMED [3.09PM]
PN409
THE COMMISSIONER: The Community and Public Sector Union, supported by the Communications, Electrical, Electronic, Energy, Information, Postal, Plumbing and Allied Services Union of Australia seek an interim order providing that certain named persons not be required to work on Labour Day in Queensland which is to be observed on 2 May 2005. These named persons are all employed by Telstra Corporation Ltd, in call centres. In brief, CPSU and CEPU argue that the Telstra Corporation General Conditions of Employment Award 2001 grants a right for employees to enjoy a paid time away from work upon 2 May and it's inconsistent with that right for the employer to require attendance.
PN410
The employees are covered by various industrial instruments including Australian workplace agreements. In relation to those on Australian workplace agreements, the orders sought would not impact upon them, so I do not propose to consider them. I will therefore confine this decision to the employees covered by the enterprise agreement and the award. The arguments advanced by CPSU have been thorough and well prepared. Clause 12.7 of the award provides:
PN411
For the purposes of this clause, a full-time or part-time employee is eligible to observe the following public holidays without loss of pay.
PN412
One of those holidays is Labour Day, or 8 Hours Day. This clause provides that an employee is eligible to observe the public holiday. However, it appears to me that that eligibility cannot be seen as an absolute right because within the same clause, and indeed, preceding the clause containing the word eligible, is clause 12.1.1 which describes the payment for work on rostered public holiday. It's well-settled that the Commission does not intervene in the prerogative of the employers to manage an organise a business in the most efficient manner, subject to that prerogative not being exercised harshly, unjustly or unreasonably.
PN413
The rostering of persons to work is a function of the employer's prerogative to manage the business. There is no suggestion in the clause that that function is subject to the consent of the employee. Whilst the submission is based on past practice, nonetheless that by itself is not sufficient on this occasion for interim relief. My view on the operation of the award is fortified by the operation of clause 22 which permits the employer to satisfy essential customer servicing requirements and business needs, to roster employees outside ordinary hours of work.
PN414
Interim relief is not ordinarily attracted in circumstances where the employer is exercising its prerogative within the clear boundaries of the award. There is nothing harsh, unjust or unreasonable in complying with award provisions. On the evidence of Mr Holden, I am not satisfied that Telstra is approaching its rostering practice in a manner other than consistent with its determination of the needs of the business, and having regard to the views of employees. I see nothing unusual about this matter which would call for urgent relief so as to depart from the normal operation of the award.
PN415
That is not to say that the CPSU could not seek to vary the award to take into consideration factors which may not be comprehended by the award at present. Further, and given the underpinning controversy, it may be beneficial for Telstra to advise the unions of the protocol it uses and/or intends to adopt to ensure that the views of employees are heard and considered. The application for urgent relief is refused. This matter is adjourned.
<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [3.14PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EXHIBIT #CPSU1 INTERIM ORDER PN28
JOHN JAMIESON, AFFIRMED PN53
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR VEENENDAAL PN53
EXHIBIT #CPSU2 STATEMENT OF JOHN JAMIESON PN58
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SKENE PN78
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VEENENDAAL PN122
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN126
NEIL BRANDER HOLDEN, SWORN PN132
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SKENE PN132
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA1 STATEMENT OF NEIL HOLDEN PN153
EXHIBIT #TELSTRA2 CONFIDENTIAL EXHIBIT PN169
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VEENENDAAL PN171
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKENE PN311
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN316
EXHIBIT #CPSU3 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS PN321
EXHIBIT #CPSU4 EXTRACT FROM MOBILE ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT PN339
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