C2005/2920, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 1383 (27 June 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

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Workplace Relations Act 1996 11882-1

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN

C2005/2920

VISY PAPER PTY LTD
AND
THE AUSTRALIAN WORKERS' UNION
s.99 - Notification of an industrial dispute
(C2005/2920)

MELBOURNE

2.14PM, TUESDAY, 14 JUNE 2005

Continued from 5/5/2005

PN1

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Are there any changes in the appearances?

PN2

MR STEWART: No, your Honour.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This matter has been listed for a report back. I think it requested your client, Mr Stewart.

PN4

MR STEWART: That is correct.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, where are we?

PN6

MR STEWART: All right. Thanks, your Honour. The last time we were before you was on 5 May and prior to that in accordance with the undertakings that were given by the parties at the time that we were here, it was agreed that the company would circulate the agreed set of words, your Honour, that were put together before you and that there was also a need to circulate the graduate's competency assessment criteria as the union raised an issue that that hadn't been a party to the drafting of that document and they wanted some time to consider it and to flow back their information. You also directed the parties, your Honour, to meet to discuss their concerns that the union might have as a result of the documents that were circulated to them and then we would report back to yourself on 24 May.

PN7

I can indicate for your Honour that the parties did in fact meet on 16 May and that at that meeting were Mr Gray on behalf of the union and some of the union delegates that were present and also an OH&S representative that came out especially from the union for that meeting. At the meeting, your Honour, there was a number of points brought forward by the union. They were that the competency assessment did not have enough detail for the operator and for the graduate and that was an issue that they raised with you when we were last before you. That the assessment form did not have a requirement that the operator sign off on each of the competencies undertaken and that point was related to that, as the operators would be showing the graduates what to do they needed to have a sign off on the form.

PN8

Thirdly, that if a particular crew was an operator short on any particular shift that the training of the graduate not occur because they raised a concern with the level of attention that the operator could provide to the graduate if in fact they were a person down on a shift. They also raised that the format of the rotation that the company had put forward could be reviewed because they believe they had a better format for those rotations and that finally, they asked that the whole process be reviewed with the ability of the delegates to have some feedback at the conclusion of the first batch of graduates.

PN9

Following that meeting, your Honour, I took those concerns back to the business unit managers and I was informed by those managers that a number of the points brought forward by the unions are actually acceptable to the company. I circulated to the union, the company's response on 22 May and I have a copy of that correspondence for you. Attached to that was the updated competency assessment form as well, a copy of which I am also handing up to you.

PN10

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN11

MR STEWART: In essence, your Honour, what I did in this response was to go through each of the points that the union had raised at the meeting and to respond accordingly. Firstly, in relation to the first point of the additional detail being required in the form, the company has in every case gone through each item and said that the item to be shown is in accordance with the procedures manual. And I am instructed by the management that there is a detailed procedures manual which outlines the basics of each of the tasks. Secondly, that the form has now been updated so that the operator can sign off on each one of the line items and that was a concern raised by the union and that has been incorporated.

PN12

Thirdly, the company agreed that in the event that a particular crew is an operator short that there to be no graduate training on those nights or shifts and that the format of the rotations, the company agreed that they will be reviewed at the end of this batch of graduates so that if we can improve on them the rotation can be changed. Finally, that at the end of this batch of graduates there will, in fact, be a meeting, and the feedback of all the delegates would be sought. So the company believed that it had addressed substantially the major issues put forward to them at the meeting that had occurred.

PN13

Despite that, I received an email correspondence back from the union the following day, Mr Terry Williams, he is one of the ship delegates for the union, one of the senior ship delegates there, responded saying that that suggestion by the company was unacceptable and that we were still in dispute. What I then did immediately was to send a letter to your chambers which I dated 23 may and I copies Mr Gray from the AWU, just outlining that we had had the meetings and that the correspondence had been circulated as requested and that the parties were still in dispute and so the matter would need to in fact be called back on.

PN14

It is with regret that we come back here before you, your Honour. We were hopeful that in meeting all of the issues and updating the documents and giving the union a chance to respond that we wouldn't in fact be in dispute because we note that in fact one of the graduates who we were here for, Jared from VP2 our paper mill number 2, is still in fact not being able to fully participate in the graduate training program and we find that is quite unfortunate. So that is an update from our point of view, your Honour, unless I can assist you further.

PN15

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Are you going to show me the union's response?

PN16

MR STEWART: I actually tried to find the email for you. It's a two line email and - - -

PN17

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There was no particularity in - - -

PN18

MR STEWART: No, it was just that they were still in dispute and they didn't accept our proposal.

PN19

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And you have had nothing to do with the union since then on this issue?

PN20

MR STEWART: No. Well we did have discussions because we had to seek an adjournment of the original time but in terms of seeking a settlement of this outstanding matter, no. I was at the - and the mill managers were of the opinion that it would be more appropriate to come back before yourself, given that that is where we got to at the last time we were here.

PN21

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Who is addressing me on behalf of the union? Yes, Mr Gray?

PN22

MR GRAY: Commissioner, what Mr Stewart has outlined is fairly accurate except that we were due to come back here on the Tuesday 16th, I think, and we didn't get a response until that Monday. And we were assured that we would get a response close of business on the Thursday afternoon by the company and after I have circulated that to our stewards and I agreed to the adjournment of the hearing because really haven't had time to take in their answer.

PN23

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you have had time now. So where are we at?

PN24

MR GRAY: We are still in dispute.

PN25

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why?

PN26

MR GRAY: Because we haven't met again.

PN27

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, why haven't you told the company what was wrong with their proposal in the email that they sent you on 22 May?

PN28

MR GRAY: The senior steward has put objections in and I need to get with him specifically to talk about this but he's on - - -

PN29

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry? You need to do what?

PN30

MR GRAY: To get to the senior steward to talk specifically on this but he is on leave.

PN31

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So in the meantime nothing happens?

PN32

MR GRAY: Well, he is on leave.

PN33

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So? And the graduate is not being trained.

PN34

MR GRAY: Well, he is unavailable.

PN35

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, all right.

PN36

MR GRAY: The company hasn't made themselves available for me. I am happy to have a meeting anytime.

PN37

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. I will adjourn now. I will be back in 10 minutes and you tell me where you are at with the company.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.23PM]
<RESUMED [2.36PM]

PN38

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Gray, well you have had a few minutes now to put your position to the company.

PN39

MR GRAY: Well, we have still got a problem because the company has given us this document which says that the competency assessment form, which is that, which we haven't had a chance to put through to our delegates and the people in the mill. And the problem that we have - - -

PN40

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that the document they sent 22 May?

PN41

MR GRAY: On 22 May. Yes.

PN42

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: About three weeks ago.

PN43

MR GRAY: And I will be honest, I haven't had a chance. We have been finalising the EBA and I have had other issues to do, haven't had a chance to do it. The company is not in - I was trying to have a meeting in relation to the EBA which has those delegates on board and I was going to try and fit it into that and the company said that they don't want any more meetings with the full delegates because of cost et cetera. So we are happy to sit down and do the meeting. Now, the problem we have got in the negotiations is that in that document that we had, the set of words which you agreed, rehashed the set of words. The company put a set of words, we put a set of words and what was quite clear in the three documents, no-one's mucked around with "these graduates are ..... to the mills and will not take the place of a person on shift".

PN44

While we have a meeting over the EBA, a stop work meeting over the EBA, the company used one of those graduates as a person off shift to run the machinery. Now, while we are in negotiations, I know we haven't signed it, but it doesn't fly well with the blokes in terms of consultation because that is the crux of the matter that the company never - they had this on the agenda since last year. It's come to a crunch, they want to push us to get down and meet as soon as possible, we've got other things on the agenda. We've got the EBA which the company is screaming to get signed, it's been negotiated for 12 months. And then on top of that on Friday I get a document that says they're going to close down the mill.

PN45

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am not - - -

PN46

MR GRAY: I understand that. I'm just going at consultation which they haven't raised since 6 April.

PN47

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No doubt we will be back here on that one too but that's not what I am interested in at the moment.

PN48

MR GRAY: So and the whole crux of things - - -

PN49

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When is your delegate getting back from leave?

PN50

MR GRAY: Friday. But I'm happy to sit down with the company after that
and - - -

PN51

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is he back on Friday?

PN52

MR GRAY: Yes.

PN53

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. You will have a meeting with the company on Friday. Mr Stewart, will you make yourself available?

PN54

MR GRAY: I am in the afternoon.

PN55

MR STEWART: I will, your Honour. I think it's just worth noting though that this particular delegate has been involved in a number of meetings of delegates around the EBA and at no stage since 22 May has any issue been raised in relation to this.

PN56

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think I have made my views pretty clear as to the conduct of the union in the negotiation of this matter. I think it is far from satisfactory, far from satisfactory. It is just not the way that I expect parties to conduct themselves after they come here and formulate an agreement but that's beside the point and now we can't do much about it, it seems. The earliest that something can be done is Friday, I expect the parties to meet on Friday and we will have a report back next week some time if the matter is not resolved. If it is resolved there won't be a need for a report back. Mr Stewart, you can notify me if you want a hearing next week and I will slot you in at short notice.

PN57

MR STEWART: Thank you, your Honour.

PN58

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there anything else, Mr Gray?

PN59

MR GRAY: No.

PN60

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, make sure that this matter is properly discussed on Friday and that there is no more stalling. I will adjourn this matter and it will be re-listed if requested at short notice.

<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [2.40PM]