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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
1800 534 258
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Workplace Relations Act 1996 10006
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT HARRISON
C2004/6474
s.170(LW) application for settlement of dispute (certification of agreement)
Alcoa World Alumina Australia
and
The Australian Workers' Union
(C2004/6474)
Alcoa World Alumina Australia, WA Operations - AWU Agreement 2003
PERTH
10.06AM, MONDAY, 10 JANUARY 2005
Continued from 6/1/2005
PN1
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, I think the appearances remain the same. I have received two bundles of documents since the matter was before me in video conference last week. I will identify those documents. The first was sent to us by Mr Price on Friday afternoon. It comprises a bundle of documents. I haven't counted how many are in the bundle but they seem to be marked at least up to document 16 and then document 16 in itself has a number of other documents which themselves are marked with the initials S and M, but at some stage, Mr McLane, you can perhaps better explain what is in that bundle, but I have them. And I have received from you, Mr Heelan, documents comprising copies of contracts of employment, or extracts from contracts of employment. That too was received Friday afternoon. I assume that each of you have provided a copy of those documents to the other. Mr McLane? Mr Heelan?
PN2
MR HEELAN: That's correct, ma'am.
PN3
MR McLANE: Yes, your Honour.
PN4
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you can both let me know what you want me to do with them in due course. Just one housekeeping matter, Mr McLane, I marked a document exhibit AWU1 on the last occasion the matter was before me for hearing. Perhaps you could help me with this, but I think the reason I don't physically have a hard copy of AWU1 here is because that hearing proceeded by video conference and I might have had identified what the document was that you were cross-examining by reference to but not marked it. Can you just help me with that and we will ensure that at least I have a hard copy of each of the documents on the bench here with me?
PN5
MR McLANE: Yes, I can, ma'am. I actually have the original and a copy for my friend if I hand that up.
PN6
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good, thanks. Right, yes. Well, this document previously tendered on 20 December and marked exhibit AWU1 is an extract from what newspaper, the local?
PN7
MR McLANE: It is the local West Australian, ma'am.
PN8
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The local West Australian of Saturday, 18 December 2004. Yes, thank you. Where are we, Mr Heelan?
PN9
MR HEELAN: Your Honour, I thought that - - -
PN10
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Horne is still under cross-examination but is there anything we need to do before we recommence?
PN11
MR HEELAN: I don't believe so, your Honour.
PN12
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No. Mr McLane?
PN13
MR McLANE: No, ma'am, there is not.
PN14
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
PN15
MR McLANE: I understood that Mr Horne had actually concluded his evidence.
PN16
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did he? Well, I had misunderstood that, so I apologise to you for that. I didn't recall that. Have I released Mr Horne from his oath?
PN17
MR HEELAN: You have, your Honour, except you made a comment that you thought he should remain in the room. This was back on the 20th.
PN18
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay. Good.
PN19
MR HEELAN: Could we proceed on the basis that Mr Horne is released?
PN20
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, if I have made comments consistent with that I don't need to revisit it and Mr McLane seems to believe that's where we got to, so yes, indeed.
PN21
MR HEELAN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN22
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And I am assuming you have no other witness evidence?
PN23
MR HEELAN: No, we don't.
PN24
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And what do you want to do about those documents you forwarded to me? When do you want to deal with them?
PN25
MR HEELAN: I was proposing to simply refer to those in cross-examination.
PN26
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Good. So that's all the evidence you wish to lead?
PN27
MR HEELAN: That's correct, ma'am.
PN28
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr McLane.
PN29
MR McLANE: Thank you, ma'am. Is my friend going to make submissions - sorry, I didn't - - -
PN30
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I wouldn't be aided by submissions now, Mr McLane. I like to have all the evidence in before me first and then you can both make submissions and I generally find, at least in these sorts of matters, that it is more useful to me.
MR McLANE: Certainly, ma'am. In that case, ma'am, I would like to call Mr Simon Price.
<SIMON FREDERICK PRICE, SWORN [10.12 AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCLANE
PN32
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr McLane.
PN33
MR McLANE: Thank you, your Honour.
PN34
Mr Price, could you please state your full name and address?---Simon Frederick Price, (Address supplied).
PN35
And do you hold a position within the Australian Workers' Union?---Yes, I do. I am currently the Huntly secretary/convener.
PN36
Thank you. And have you been involved in discussions in attempts to resolve this current dispute?---Yes, I have.
PN37
Ma'am, I would like to tender through this witness firstly all the bundle of documents that's simply marked with a one at the front and pages one to two. I have copies, one for the witness and also one for my friend if that's okay.
PN38
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, is that a bundle of documents that is the same as something I received before or a subset of that?
PN39
MR McLANE: It's a hard copy of what was some of the documents, or part of the bundle of documents that were emailed to you on Friday.
PN40
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, yes. And just for my purposes because I did peruse them, there is nothing in this bundle
you have now shown
Mr Price that was not contained within the bundle that you sent me Friday?
PN41
MR McLANE: That's correct, ma'am, yes.
PN42
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, yes.
PN43
MR McLANE: Mr Price, where do you work?---I work at the Alcoa Huntly mine site.
PN44
Okay. And what position do you work there?---I am classed as an operator.
PN45
Do you work within the mine site?---Yes, that's correct.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN46
When was the first time you heard the term crusher zone?---The first time I heard the word crusher zone was when I read it in Kim Horne's affidavit relating to this matter.
PN47
If I was to come to Huntly and ask you to show me the crusher zone and times before you had seen Mr Horne's affidavit what would you have shown me?---The crusher.
PN48
Would the term crusher zone mean anything to you?---Not really. I mean we don't normally use the word zone. Normally we would say the crusher site, or the crusher.
PN49
All right. Now, how do you refer to Huntly?---Huntly site, the Huntly mine site or just Huntly.
PN50
How do you refer to McCoy?---In the same manner, the McCoy site is generally the word people are using around the sites. McCoy, McCoy mine site. Those are the terminologies that we use.
PN51
Does anybody use the term McCoy crusher zone?---No, not to my knowledge.
PN52
Can you just explain briefly what the set up has been in regards to transporting people from the Huntly site to the White Road site?---The arrangement to my understanding is that the employees travel in their own vehicles to the Huntly site carpark, which is the employees' carpark where they park their vehicles. They then walk up to what we call the muster point, which is directly outside of the Huntly administration building. They muster there and then they walk around to a point where Alcoa bus is situated and then they are transported out there in the bus to the White Road. Now - - -
PN53
Sorry?---Sorry, I - - -
PN54
No, I am sorry, I interrupted you?---Yes. The time frames, what it is, is their time starts there at Huntly, their work time. The production - these are the production employees that we're talking about.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN55
Yes?---And they work a 12.5 hour roster which averages out to a 36 hour week over the cycle of the roster and the point 5 is for travelling between Huntly and White Road and back again per shift.
PN56
So the travel occurs in whose time?---In the company's time.
PN57
How long has this been the case for?---I believe, and because I have only been at the Huntly site for approximately six years, but to my understanding it has been in place for around about 10 to 12 years.
PN58
When did you become aware of the move to McCoy?---I couldn't put a specific date on it. I have been at Huntly for six years roughly. Actually in fact I think it was '99, end of '99 that I went down to Huntly. I couldn't say when I first heard about it.
PN59
Okay. Well, is it years, months, days?---Years. I mean it would have to be at leas probably four years I think.
PN60
Okay, thank you. Are you aware attempts been made by the union to try and resolve the issue with the company?---Yes, I am.
PN61
And what do you know about those attempts?---Well, a variety of attempts. Prior to taking on the position of the Huntly convener/secretary I was a shop steward, a crew shop steward, and I have been on the Huntly shop steward section committee for approximately around about five years I would say and during the course of attending the monthly shop stewards meetings Bill McDade who was the Huntly secretary/convener at the time reported progress in attempts that he has made to resolve them McCoy travel issue. It would be over a number of years that we have had bits and pieces of reports about the progress.
PN62
All right. So have you yourself been personally involved at any time?---Only more specifically in the last 12 months approximately where for a period of time between March and June I was the proxy convener for Bill while he was away on long term leave. I had some little bit of involvement during that period, but more recently since I have been elected as the Huntly convener/secretary in October I have been directly involved.
PN63
Okay. Would you just tell us about that direct involvement and what the outcome has been?---Well, it is quite intensive. Can you be a bit more specific?
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN64
All right. Well, what I will do, I will come back to that and we will go through some documents. Before I do, are you a shift worker?---Yes, I am classed as a shift worker.
PN65
Okay. Now, are the arrangements a little different for you in your convener's position than they were when you were a mine worker?---Yes. At the moment, since I became the Huntly secretary/convener I haven't been on my normal shift roster. I haven't returned to my normal shift roster.
PN66
So I want to talk to you about your normal shift roster. When did you come off that?---The end of October, the beginning of November.
PN67
Of what year?---Of 2004.
PN68
Okay. And how long were you a shift worker before coming off?---I have been a shift worker all my years that I have - - -
PN69
Okay. How many hour shifts do you work?---The current roster that I was working before taking on the Huntly convener/secretary was a 12 hour roster.
PN70
Okay. And how long had you worked that for?---For the time that I have been down at Huntly.
PN71
Okay. Where do you travel from?---Kelmscott.
PN72
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What was that, Mr Price?---Kelmscott.
PN73
MR McLANE: It's a southern suburb of Perth, ma'am?---Sorry, yes.
PN74
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is it on one of those documents that I have?---Yes, it should be. Yes.
PN75
I will just make sure it is because I am assuming you are addressing travel and time considerations.
PN76
MR McLANE: I am ma'am, yes.
PN77
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Let us make sure that where you travelled from when you were on the shift working is in here somewhere. What should I look at? Now, I think the annexures to Mr Horne's statement are the wider mine areas. Well, I will use the term that is described at the mine site on the top of the document and avoid at this stage this contentious area of description. Where will I find - I know there was like a Gregory's or a - - -
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN78
MR McLANE: It's in one of the annexures.
PN79
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed.
PN80
MR McLANE: I thought it was one. Yes, it is one, ma'am.
PN81
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In ALCOA1?
PN82
MR McLANE: Yes, in Mr Horne's affidavit.
PN83
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, that's two.
PN84
MR McLANE: Thank you.
PN85
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which one have you got? Is it in
Mr Horne's affidavit, is it?
PN86
MR McLANE: There is, ma'am. I don't know that it shows Kelmscott, but
Mr Price will be able to indicate. It's A5 fold out at annexe one.
PN87
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's not annexure three though, is it? I thought that was too large an area.
PN88
MR McLANE: I am sorry, ma'am, I am guessing a bit here, but annexure two may well be - - -
PN89
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Annexure two, you are quite right. Yes, I thought it was just too wide an area. Don't let me delay you any longer. I will at some stage find the smaller map that I recall seeing but I can't now turn up.
PN90
MR McLANE: It is page 12, ma'am.
PN91
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Of the respondent's submissions?
PN92
MR McLANE: No, the exhibit that I just put up.
PN93
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The exhibit that you just put up. Yes, page 12. Excellent. Where did you mention now, Mr Price?---Kelmscott doesn't quite show on the map but Kelmscott is the next suburb up from Armadale which is just above map 391 or 392.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN94
MR McLANE: Right at the top of the page.
PN95
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I see?---Right at the top. Almost in the middle.
PN96
Good. Yes, I see Armadale. Thank you.
PN97
MR McLANE: Okay. Now, how long does it take you to drive from Kelmscott to the Huntly mine site?---Approximately about 55 minutes.
PN98
Is that one way?---Yes, one way.
PN99
Okay. And do you travel to and from every day that you are working?---Yes, two ways.
PN100
Okay. So that is 10 minutes short of two hours if I am correct?---Yes.
PN101
In travelling time. How many hours, given your 12 hour shift and you travelling time, how many hours does that take out of your day?---I mean we round it up. It's roughly a 14 hour day by the time you leave home till you go to work and you get back home because you generally allow yourself a little bit of time, you know, to get to work. Like you can't time it to the second to get to work so roughly it's a 14 hour day.
PN102
Okay. And is that unusual or is that typical for workers such as yourself?---It certainly wouldn't be unusual. I think it's common. There are people obviously live closer and there are people that live further than me, to my knowledge.
PN103
Okay. So what shifts are you actually working?---Twelve hour shifts.
PN104
But days and nights?---Days and nights.
PN105
Okay. So on a typical day, on day shift, what time would you leave home and what time would you arrive home?---Well, when I was on ore handling we worked from 6 o'clock to 6 o'clock. We worked from 6 o'clock to 6 o'clock whether it be day or night. Generally - - -
PN106
So on day shift what time would you leave home?---Generally I would leave home about 10 to fiveish, you know, so - - -
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN107
In the morning?---Yes, in the morning. Yes.
PN108
And what time would you get home?---Around about 10 to seven, five to seven, something like that.
PN109
Okay. And what about on the night shift?---The same. Just am/pm.
PN110
Okay. Now, do you ever feel tired?---Yes.
PN111
What do you do about that?---Well, a number of times I have stopped on the side of the road. It actually - there's an area, a suburb called Byford and a number of times I have stopped just before Byford. There's a truck bay there where I have stopped and got out and had a bit of a walk around and that because, you know, on the travelling time and that. It's not uncommon for shifties to do that, to stop.
PN112
Okay. Now, just to come to the current dispute. Your evidence was that the company provides a buss during company time from Huntly to White Road, am I correct?---That's correct.
PN113
And how long does that take?---Well, I haven't actually done the trip myself on the bus because that's the production crews that have done.
PN114
Okay?---I believe the trip is somewhere around about 10 minutes. I couldn't be accurate on that.
PN115
Okay, thank you. Now, how much longer would it take to transport people from the Huntly site to the McCoy site?---In absolute time, just driving time alone, it's at least 15 minutes plus. Given getting on and getting off the bus and all those sorts of things then we have looked at for around about 20 minutes.
PN116
Okay. So we are talking approximately 10 minutes extra?---Yes, roughly.
PN117
The White Road site, what mine site does that belong to?---To the Huntly mine site.
PN118
Okay. And what about the McCoy site, what mine site does that belong
to?---Well, I don't know the legal or technical term but as far as we are concerned it's a new site and we are calling it the McCoy
site.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN119
How long have people been referring to it as the McCoy site for? When you say McCoy site do you mean McCoy mine site?---Yes., McCoy mine site.
PN120
Okay. Mr Horn, you may recall, gave evidence that the Huntly mine site included - covers people who work at the Pinjarra refinery, Dell Park intersection, Huntley admin and White Road zone. He said all of that is called Huntly today. Do you agree with that statement?---Not in its absolute. I would say that the employees are employed by Alcoa Huntly. I wouldn't call the areas that they work as the Huntly site.
PN121
He mentions the Pinjarra refinery. Is the Pinjarra refinery itself part of the Huntly mine site?---I don't believe it is. I believe the Pinjarra refinery is the Pinjarra refinery and it's quite specifically bounded by fences and everything, so from our point of view the refinery is the refinery.
PN122
Where at the Pinjarra refinery is the line drawn?---Well, I would say the fence is the line. The conveyor comes from the mine site down into the refinery and as I said, the refinery is fully fence the full perimeter. We actually have electric gates for entry into what we call the back of the refinery, where the conveyor comes through. So from my point of view the line is the fence line.
PN123
Okay. And what is at the fence line at the Huntly employees would deal with?---I beg your pardon?
PN124
What is there at the Pinjarra site that the Huntly employees deal with?---We deal with the stockpile area. We have stockpiles area there and we look after the stacking. So we are responsible for the work that puts the dirt on the ground. Once the dirt goes on the ground they're classed as stockpiles, then the refinery take over from there.
PN125
Okay. Thank you for that. And I would just like to take you to the bundle of documents and if I could just ask you to look at the first one, which is the first two pages, and I would just ask you to explain the significance of that document, just briefly, or is it better left for Mr McDade?---Well, this is - - -
PN126
Sorry, ma'am.
PN127
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's all right?---Sorry. This is correspondence from Bill to Kim Horne regarding the McCoy transfers. As I say, my involvement at this period was as a shop steward and I was aware of Bill's attempts to resolve the McCoy issue. At this point in time we were looking at different options for the McCoy scenario and it's my understanding that the proposal was presented for resolving the McCoy travel issue. The unions were looking at all sorts of different options to try and address the issue and this was attempts from Bill to get that - - -
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN128
MR McLANE: Okay. What options are you aware of for the company?---There was about three options were being looked at at the one time. There was a bus option from different points.
PN129
Could I just ask you to identify them at this stage rather than go to detail?---Okay. A bus option, a one off payment option and then I believe the other option was like a travel component based on the kilometres and time scenarios. I believe that was the three different options.
PN130
Okay?---As I say, I was directly involved in the development of those options.
PN131
Okay, we will leave that there. Now, if I take you over to the one that is marked number three, it appears to be - well, sorry. What is it?---It's a mass meeting notice for 22 January 2004 and it's the agenda of the meeting, that the meeting was going to cover.
PN132
All right. And what is significant about that in relation to this dispute?---Well, the significant is that there was an offer from Kim Horne of the bus from Pinjarra or North Dandalup. There was an offer there. That was one of the more significant things there, that there had obviously been dialogue between the unions and the company regarding different options.
PN133
Are you aware of what happened to that option?---I wasn't at the actual mass meeting myself but the offer was rejected by the employees and I think you will find that there is some correspondence from Bill detailing in general reasons why the members had some concerns. There problem wasn't a lot of information specific to it and it was rejected at that time.
PN134
All right. If I can ask you to the page. Can I just ask you to identify that document?---Yes, this is a mass meeting outcomes notice just to review - not to review, that's not the right word. To describe the outcome of the mass meeting for all members so that they could remember the outcome of the meeting. I had developed that document and it was put on the noticeboards and it was the outcome of the mass meeting on Thursday, 17 June.
PN135
Okay. And where does that relate to the current dispute?---It relates to a number of things. It shows that the company were saying their position was that there was no offer from the company. The union's position was that we believed that the move to McCoy should be cost mutual to our members. The members had identified and there were concerns obviously regarding the safety issues, the concern regarding the time frames travelling to and from home. The members, as it's stated on the documents, that we believed that it was reasonable and feasible to be remunerated for the additional time and cost associated with McCoy. The union representatives were asked by the membership to all options in detail and report those findings to the members as soon as possible.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN136
Thank you. And the next page, can you just identify that document?---This is an email from Kim Horne to myself. I had sent Kim an email asking him if he could clarify to me for the members whether or not the McCoy scenario was actually a closure of Huntly, whether he was closing Huntly and moving to McCoy, or whether he was just merely moving the crusher. This was Kim's response to that question.
PN137
And what is significant about that response?---Well, his response saying that Huntly wasn't closing down. He wasn't closing down. He was basically saying to us it's just another crusher move, like many others that we had had before.
PN138
Okay. And did you accept that?---No, I didn't.
PN139
Did you have any discussions subsequent to this email with Mr Horne?---I have been involved in a lot of discussions more recently since I became the Huntly secretary/convener. During this period of time I was acting convener for Bill McDade while he was on leave.
PN140
All right. But did you make Mr Horne aware of your disagreement with his position?---I can't recall anything specific regarding this, any further to that.
PN141
No, but there has been further discussion, has there?---Yes, absolutely, yes.
PN142
And what was your position in those further discussions?---Well, our position has always been that the McCoy move has been a scenario where we believe the membership be remunerated for the travel and the members see that the company was clearly moving our start and finish point, was intending to move our start and finish point. As such we believed that that was a move of the mine site.
PN143
Okay, thank you. If I can take you over to the next page and just ask if you could identify that document?---Yes, it's a notice that was put on the noticeboards and this was the outcome of Thursday, 28 October mass meeting regarding the McCoy travel issue. It's worth noting that it says Huntly combined unions because all unions have been involved in all our negotiations leading up to this and - - -
PN144
So all negotiations in relation to what?---To the McCoy travel issue.
PN145
Thank you. Sorry to interrupt you, keep going?---Yes, this notice just outlines the mass meeting outcomes. As you can see here, the meeting was convened to communicate the progress of the McCoy travel issues to its members. As per the previous resolutions, the unions were still committed to jointly discussing and finding a satisfactory resolution to the issue. The three unions on site are currently in different positions relating to their current agreements. The AMWU and the CEPU were in a bargaining period. They were negotiating the renewal of their EBAs. The AWU were in their current agreement which didn't run out until June. So we advised the members that we did have different legal positions because of our positions.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN146
Is that in relation to the no extra claims?---Yes. Yes, that's correct. And at this point Alcoa had advised employees by a letter that they were required to change their start and finish point from Huntly to the McCoy site. In the letter the company had quoted clause 7(b) of the relevant agreement, stating that they believed that they were entitled to direct employees to work in any area of the site as the company may from time to time reasonably require.
PN147
Okay. And is that something that you took issue with?---Yes, we did. We took issue with that because we don't believe clause (b) was ever intended to be used for that purpose. From our point of view we never had an issue with Alcoa utilising us around the site and we believe that clause 7(b) was only ever intended for using people around the site where they were required to work and that happens all the time. For example, on the fixed plant employee and if it's so desired I might be required to work in the mobile workshop, or I may be required to work where I normally work in the ore handling department, I may be required to work in the fixed plant maintenance area or - - -
PN148
And is that within the Huntly mine site operation?---Yes.
PN149
So do I understand you correctly to be saying it was to break down demarcations?---Yes, that's very clearly what it has come from. It's evolved a long period of time. I first started with the company in 1986. I first started working at the Jarrahdale site, and I was employed at the fixed crushing maintenance department.
PN150
Okay. And will you just explain briefly the demarks at that time?---At that time I was a TA for the maintenance fitters in the crushing plant. We were on a crew of, I think, approximately around about five or so mine workers type of thing. Those days there was two separate distinctions. We had a number of fitters and we had a couple of TAs that stayed in the workshop and helped the fitters and there were about three - I don't know what the technical term was in those days, but guys that used to look after the fixed plant.
PN151
Yes?---Used to do clean up, check the conveyors and load trains and those sorts of things and at that point we didn't cross demark. Like I didn't go out and work out in the crushing plant and the crushing plant guys didn't come in and work in the workshop. But then when we started getting into job redesign, job redesign was just starting when I started with Alcoa and that was designed to break down demarks and people used to start to intermingle there and then over a period the demarks have moved where people moved from a variety of different places, different departments and things like that.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN152
How does clause 7(b) relate to that process?---Well, we believe that's specifically what 7(b) was designed to do. When you turn up for work at your designated start and finish point, if the company required you to work somewhere within the department, or in the department, or in another department where you were able to utilise your skills and knowledge and you are capable of doing that work, then you could be reasonably asked to go and do that work - - -
PN153
Does the SELL principle, S-E-L-L principle mean anything to you?---Yes.
PN154
What does it mean?---It means the S stands for safe, the E stands for efficient, one of the Ls is legal and the other one is logical. Safe, efficient, legal and logical.
PN155
All right. And is that something that Alcoa have driven?---Absolutely, yes. It's one of the key principles that they put in the annualised wage agreement.
PN156
All right. Just before we go to the annualised wage agreement, how does clause 7(b) relate to SELL?---Well, as I was saying, that's basically what it's about. If you turn up for work and at the start of the shift if the company requires you to do something and you apply the SELL principle to it, if it is safe for you to do something, if it is efficient for you to do something, if there's no legal impediments, ie. say you're a crane driver and you have got a crane driving ticket, so you have got a ticket and if it's logical, well, then you can't refuse to do the job and that's what the intent of the SELL principle was.
PN157
How many years have you been active in the union at Huntly?---As I say, approximately five years.
PN158
Are you are of any disputes previously about the intent of clause 7(b)?---No, I don't think so, not until the McCoy issue.
PN159
And is that the issue before us today?---Yes, I believe so. Very clearly from our point of view, we don't believe that clause 7(b) was ever intended to be used to change people's start and finish point. The reason why we believe that is because firstly, it's not just an agreement for Huntly site. It is an agreement which covers four sites including two refineries and two mine sites. From my point of view, if that clause was intended to be used to change the start and finish point it would say there that it's designed to change the start and finish point. There is no reference in that clause whatsoever to a start and finish point.
PN160
All right. I just want to take you briefly now to the wages system that I think you mentioned. I just forget what you called it?---The annualised wage agreement.
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PN161
Yes, the annualised. Can you just briefly explain that?---The annualised wage system came about - it's going way back into around about, I think around the 90s, where we moved from the award system, from the Alcoa award, to an annualised pay system or agreement.
PN162
Okay?---The whole drive of the annualised wage scenario was that it was an annualised wage. We eliminated overtime and all that sort of stuff and we just got an annualised wage, 36 hours a week, and it was designed, I suppose, to move us closer to the Alcoa scenario so that we had more affiliation with the company and all that sort of stuff.
PN163
Okay. And did you eventually arrive at that scenario?---Yes, we did, yes.
PN164
And what is that called?---Well, we call it the annualised wage package.
PN165
Okay?---It's our current EBA.
PN166
What are the systems then within that wage process, or that overall staff process, what are the two systems - well, what are the systems that identify where people should be placed?---As far as their pay is concerned?
PN167
Yes, their levels?---You have a system, they call it - well, there's two systems. Originally when we first started the annualised wage system we had what they called the Hay system?
PN168
The Hay system?---Hay system, H-a-y.
PN169
Yes?---It's called the Hay system.
PN170
Yes?---Now, that system apparently is a world wide system that all companies use and that system is designed for identifying what job grades you are. It's the system that's got three major components, I suppose, or three main components.
PN171
Can you just explain what those three components are?---I can't remember exactly word for word, but one is based on knowledge. So depending on your level of schooling and, you know, whether you went to university or if you went just to secondary school, so one based on knowledge. There's another one based on your problem solving ability, you know, what you have to do in your day to day work, what sort of impact you have on the job.
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PN172
Yes?---And I think the other one was - I am just trying to think now. It was knowledge and accountability I think was the other one. I think it's called accountability.
PN173
What is meant by that?---I think that's basically what you are accountable for I suppose.
PN174
So your level of responsibility?---I expect so, yes. I suppose that's what it's designed for.
PN175
And is there another system in use as well?---Yes, there's a similar system in use which we are using now which is called the Aquios system. It's very similar to the Hay system. However, the unions have pushed for this system because we believe it better identifies with the blue collar worker where we believe that the Hay system was really only designed for educational base or what collar work and it didn't really identify the skills and knowledge that operators and such have.
PN176
Okay. Now, when the annualised salary came about and the systems that you now work under, Aquios and Hay, what happened to allowances?---When we went from the award system to the annualised wage system all the allowances were eliminated. They were lost in lieu of the annualised wage salary, I suppose you could say.
PN177
Okay. Was there one specific allowance that people the subject of this dispute got?---Got?
PN178
Yes, or had prior to that change?---Yes, they had - before we went to annualised wages we had the mining special allowance it was called and that was designed for the geographic location of the mine site.
PN179
Yes?---It was supposed to be designed to cover you, to the best of my knowledge because I wasn't around when it was implemented into the award, but for the, I suppose, the hazards and everything associated with travelling out to a mine site where there was no transport and environmental hazards and all that sort of stuff.
PN180
Okay, thank you. Now, you mentioned earlier on options that were put to the company to try and resolve this dispute and I think from memory you identified three options?---Yes, there were about three options.
PN181
Okay. Can you just give a little bit of detail now about each of those
options?---Probably the two main options that got most of the discussion, or airing I suppose you could say, was one was a payment
option. I think the figure was around about $50.
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PN182
Okay?---To the best of my knowledge that figure was arrived at based on the distance, the additional distance between Huntly and McCoy and the time frame it would take to drive out to there.
PN183
Okay. And this is the one that the company says is a claim?---Yes, that's more than likely the one.
PN184
Well, is it a claim?---No. From our point of view it was never a formal claim. Very clearly, and I do have in my bag what was submitted, but we did have a notice that we put on the noticeboard showing the outcome of one of the mass meetings and that very clearly showed option one, option two and option three. Very clearly from our point of view they were only options. No way were they an absolute claim and as you can see in some of the correspondence, we were in dialogue between the company and ourselves trying to find resolutions to resolve the issue and as you can see, the company put an offer to us about the bus scenario, you know. So it was a mutual process of going backwards and forwards.
PN185
For what purpose?---To resolve the McCoy travel issue.
PN186
The current?---Yes, the current issue. Yes.
PN187
Okay, thank you. Could I just take you to page eight now and if you would just identify that document?---Yes, it's another progress update for the members which was put up on the noticeboards regarding this current issue.
PN188
Okay. And if you could just explain the relevance, if you would, please?---Yes. Yes, at this point our discussions with the company had moved, or I suppose focused on a mining special allowance and that was the dialogue we had had with the company. The company said that - - -
PN189
Who put forward the proposal or the option of a mining special allowance?---Yes, it just evolved as an option which the company indicated to us that was favourable to them and it was an option that we believe would be favourable to our members.
PN190
Okay?---And this meeting, what had happened is because both parties seemed to be in favour of that sort of an option then - - -
PN191
What sort of an option?---A mining special allowance option.
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PN192
Okay?---We called it a mining special allowance option. And so what we had done is because that would then apply to the whole of the mining crew that would involve the Willowdale mine site as well, we convened a meeting with the Willowdale conveners and once again it was all unions involved in the discussions.
PN193
Okay. So we are talking two sites, are we?---Two sites, yes.
PN194
Two mine sites?---Two mine sites, yes. So we convened a meeting between the Willowdale and the Huntly combined unions and we met to look at the issue of the mining special allowance and we identified a list of principles that we believed were appropriate, because once we had started looking at this mining special allowance it really was identifying really the disadvantage that mining employees had in relation to refinery employees. When we looked at the two sites, I suppose the example you could give, if you had two employees, one that worked for the refinery and one that worked for the refinery and they were the same - - -
PN195
Sorry, you said one that worked for the refinery and one that worked for the refinery?---Sorry, did I? My apologies. Take an example, if you had a situation where you have got two employees, one works for the refinery and one works for the mine site and they live in the same street, side by side each other, and they go to work and they are on the same job grade, receiving the same amount of pay, because the Alcoa pay system, the Hay or the Aquios system identifies the job grade.
PN196
Yes?---Then if they were both say job grade 10 then they would be getting paid exactly the same amount of money. So if they travelled to work, and this is only approximate, if they travelled to work then the guy working for the refinery would turn into the refinery gate. The guy working for the mine site, if he travelled out to McCoy, would have to drive approximately 30 kilometres more to get to work one way.
PN197
Okay?---So from our point of view the mining special allowance moved its focus to that type of scenario and they're disadvantaged compared to a refinery guy to a mining guy.
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PN198
Okay. Where you say the mining guy is disadvantaged to the tune of approximately 60 kilometres a day?---Approximately, yes. Yes, it's approximately and that on both - if you use both refineries and because you have got people coming from different directions, but in general that is a general assumption to take. So we identified the additional kilometres and the time associated with the travel. We looked at the average number of shifts per fortnight that employees work.
PN199
Sorry, are they the principles that you spoke about earlier that are listed one to five on this document?---One to five on this document?
PN200
Do you see on your document there the one to five?---Yes, yes. Yes, this is the principles I am talking about.
PN201
Thank you. I am sorry to interrupt?---Yes. No, that's okay. Yes, so we identified these principles, as I say, the kilometres and the time travel, the average number of shifts that people work per fortnight because basically we have got three different scenarios. People working 12 hour shifts will do roughly six shifts a fortnight, 12 hour shifts. We have got shift patterns of 10.3 who work seven shifts a fortnight and to my knowledge I don't think we have got any, but the agreement also covers that we would have or could have nine day fortnight employees that would do nine shifts a fortnight. So obviously the shift pattern that you are on would have a slightly different impact on your cost and your travel, depending on how many shifts you have to work each fortnight. The percentage rate of wage movements was an issue. Relocation opportunities was an issue that we looked as well and we also there - these relocation opportunities, I just might expand on that, when the company closed the Jarrahdale operations there was an opportunity for employees who were disadvantaged in their travel, were doing additional travel and there was a set point set and I think to my knowledge was 17 kilometres. If you were travelling more than 17 kilometres to Huntly, and that's what I am talking about, when they closed Jarrahdale down.
PN202
Well, let us just break it down. What was Jarrahdale?---Jarrahdale was one of the three mine sites that were operating at the time.
PN203
Okay. And I assume it closed?---Yes.
PN204
Then what happened in relation to travel?---Well, what happened in the Jarrahdale closure, the option was for employees to move to other sites. Because of the Jarrahdale mine site, all the guys that work in the mine site, the majority of people moved to the Huntly mine site.
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PN205
Okay?---The closure of Jarrahdale, it was often called a merger between Jarrahdale and Huntly and the company moved its mining operations from Jarrahdale down to the Huntly.
PN206
Now, what schemes did the company have in place?---The one option that was first available was relocation of the employees, of his home, or where he lived.
PN207
Now, just explain that?---The situation was, if you were in the situation where, and don't quote me, but I think it was 17 kilometres by memory.
PN208
Yes?---If an employee had to travel more than 17 kilometres than what he normally used to travel to Jarrahdale - - -
PN209
It was a threshold anyway?---It was a threshold designed to give a timeline. Then the relocation package was available to him.
PN210
And what was the relocation package?---What it meant, that the employee could sell their home, buy a home closer to Huntley and the company would cover the costs of the move. They would cover the real estate costs and they would also pay for the relocation costs like the furniture removal, all that sort of stuff, for reasonable, you know, if you had an unusual home and had 6000 cattle or something, they wouldn't move that.
PN211
Yes?---But normal scenario then they would relocate your home at nil cost to yourself.
PN212
Okay. So that was one option?---Yes, that was one.
PN213
What was the second option?---The second option only came about from pressure from the union where we said to the company that we believe that package was roughly worth, in rough terms I suppose, about $20,000 it was roughly worth.
PN214
Yes?---Now, we argued that there were a number of people who were in the situation where they couldn't relocate even if they wanted to relocate even if they wanted to relocate. In situations where their wife might work in the opposite direction to which way they were travelling and they couldn't relocate, then we believe that the company should compensate them for the additional travel that they were going to do.
PN215
So what was the outcome?---The outcome of that was a once off $9000 payment that was paid to employees who would have been eligible for the relocation but due to other reasons they couldn't relocate then they were paid the once off $9000 payment.
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PN216
And to compensate for what?---For the additional kilometres that they had to travel because the company moved their mining operations down to Huntley.
PN217
And when was this, what year?---I am fairly sure I moved around December '99, but I am not 100 per cent on that exact date, but I am fairly sure that was the date.
PN218
So `99/2000?---Yes. This - - -
PN219
Yes?---The mining travel disadvantage draft was developed and presented to the company here and you will see that that is in our submissions.
PN220
If you would just take me to it?---It's in the submission.
PN221
In the submission?---Yes.
PN222
Sure?---That we sent to the Commission.
PN223
Yes?---That draft was presented to Alcoa management. The company response to it was that they recognised that there was an impact on mining employees regarding the travel issues. They were happy to look at the mining travel disadvantage issues, ie. the mining special allowance concept. The proviso that the company put on it was that they were happy to pay something like that but they said it had to be linked to productivity.
PN224
Okay, just let me stop you there. Now, if I can just show it to you, is it document (d) in our submissions, is that the package?---That's the package.
PN225
Ma'am, if I could take you to the union's submissions at document (d).
PN226
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I have it.
PN227
MR McLANE: If I could just have leave, ma'am, to hand mine to Mr Price?
PN228
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN229
MR McLANE: If you could just take us through that, please, Mr Price?---Yes, this is a communication package that the joint unions put together. Because there was an urgency on the time frames the package was put together and a copy of the package was sent to the mobile maintenance manager of Willowdale and Huntley, Jeremy Hall, for his pervusal, I think is the right word.
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PN230
Perusal?---Perusal is it? Okay. And this package detailed the discussions that we had had between the company relating to the mining special allowance concept. It detailed the company's offer. Very clearly we said to the - we put the package together and then we communicated this out to our employees. It took a period of about two weeks to cover all employees.
PN231
Okay. So did the company see it before it went to employees or
members?---They did, yes.
PN232
And did they make any comment?---No, they didn't. I didn't receive any comment. The company actually - for the production employees it was the - I am not sure of his exact title but I think it was Tim Pearman at the time. I think he is called the production supervisor at Huntley, and he actually put together the time frame, the dates that we were going to present this to the production employee. So the company actually helped us set up the information sessions and they were all done in paid time and all that sort of stuff. Now, the package detailed both the union's proposal, the union's travel disadvantage draft, and it also detailed the offer from the company which was $53 - - -
PN233
Can you just refer to the page, if you would first?---Go through the summary. If you start from where it says document (d), it's actually three pages in but it's not called number three, page number three, because it was an insert.
PN234
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I have it.
PN235
MR McLANE: What is the heading of it?---It's Draft Mining Disadvantage.
PN236
Okay, thank you, Mr Price. Just go on if you would?---Yes, this is the draft proposal that the combined unions, as I say, between Willowdale and Huntley put together.
PN237
So it's combined unions, combined sites?---Yes, it's combined unions, combined sites across the mining.
PN238
Yes?---The principle of it was to offset the negative impact of continuing mining movement and associated environmental hazards, environment hazards. Now, the reason why we put this together is, to give you an example, with the Jarrahdale closure scenario there was that situation where you had to be travelling at least 17 kilometres to get the relocation package.
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PN239
Yes. This was the threshold?---That was that threshold that we used and if you use the scenario now that if Jarrahdale was still open now and an employee - they were going to close Jarrahdale down and then an employee was required to travel to McCoy, then they would very clearly have been over that threshold, where before they may not have been. Also in addition to this, as the company has shown, mining is moving all the time and in our situation it's moving directly east away form the bulk of the metropolitan area. So as the mine moves it's moving away in general terms from where people live. So there's a continual movement away from someone's residence if you know.
PN240
Yes?---So that was the principle behind looking at this concept. So what we did is we benchmarked the additional kilometres travelled by employees compared refinery employees because a refinery doesn't move. A refinery is just set in one spot. We roughly, and this is not absolute, we roughly figured it was around about 60 kilometres. We used the Australian Tax Office rate to identify the value of those kilometres for a person driving in their vehicle which equalled around $37. We then looked at the time frame that it would take someone to travel and we came up with around about 40 minutes was an average. We looked at the pay rates. Because it was a combined union scenario we looked at from job grade 10 through to job grade 13 which is about the spread of job grades.
PN241
Yes?---And we identified the median and that 40 minutes was roughly worth around $21. For want of a word, based on the fact that we appreciate that there is such a variance of distances that each individual travels, we figured it was reasonable to split the difference between the two figures and come up with a median and so therefore that's how we came up with the $29. We looked at the number of shifts people worked and as I say, some employees work six shifts a fortnight, some do seven. Potentially people could do nine, if they do nine day fortnight but we don't believe anyone does. So we based it on seven shifts a fortnight and it came out around $203. The other principle we put on it is we believe that any mining special allowance system that was put in place should be linked to Alcoa wage movements, so that it grows with your wage movements. The additional thing that we raised concern about and that was the time frame from home to home. We believed that - - -
PN242
When you say concerns about home to home, what type of concerns?---Well, the amount of time it takes you to - from the time you leave home to the time you get back home.
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PN243
And why is that of concern?---Well, it's a concern because 12 hour shifts are long shifts, particularly depending on your job role. Most of our employees operate heavy earthmoving equipment.
PN244
Yes?---So they leave home, they drive to work, they get to work, they drive heavy earthmoving equipment, or are working in heavy environments for 12 hours and then they have got to drive back home again and this is done not only day shifts but on night shifts. So you have got situations where employees are travelling home in the morning after being away from home for potentially up to 14 hours. So we thought based on the situation that happened in Jarrahdale, then we believed that a relocation option could be considered and we are obviously not saying both.
PN245
Yes?---But a relocation situation is something that we believe that's reasonable to consider.
PN246
So was that another option?---Yes. Well, it was an idea to put forward for people to minimise the distance travelled. We also recognised and we appreciate the fact that any dollar spent has a cost on the operation and there's a cost impact on the operation and we recognise that and we were happy to work towards reducing that cost impact, which we believed we principally have agreed to under our EBA anyway.
PN247
Okay?---So that was the draft that the unions put together. The offer from the company - well, basically what we did is - - -
PN248
If you have moved a page just identify it if you will so that people can follow you?---Sorry. I suppose if we go to page five.
PN249
And just the heading on that for information?---Productivity Opportunities. The discussions we were having with the company about the mining specialist allowance concept, the company basically said to us that there's an amount of money that they were happy to pay for us for the McCoy travel scenario but they weren't prepared to pay that without productivities linked to that.
PN250
Okay. Who said that?---Kim Horne.
PN251
When did he say that, roughly?---At a number of meetings that we had had prior to this.
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PN252
Okay?---He said the amount of money that - - -
PN253
Did others say it as well?---Yes, yes.
PN254
Who?---Other managers. We had at different times, because different managers weren't available at different meetings, but in general we had Kim Horne at the meetings, we had Jeremy Hall who is the mobile maintenance manager, we had Irely Gamber, the fixed plant manager, Ian Cardlini was present at the meeting.
PN255
Mr Cardlini's role?---Mr Cardlini is the Huntley production manager.
PN256
Is there any others?---I believe Steve Pieburn. Yes, Pieburn filled in for Kim Horne in his absence.
PN257
So did he say this or was he present when it was said? You need to be fairly clear?---Yes. I don't know if he specifically said it but he was referring to the company's position that this was still the company's position.
PN258
Okay?---And I believe Ron Stone was one of the managers at one of the meetings as well. So there has been a variety of managers at the meetings.
PN259
Okay?---Yes, so basically what we were told is there's an amount of money there but that money can grow depending on the amount of productivities that we attached to it. So therefore - so then what we did is we sat down with the different managers of the different departments to identify some productivity opportunities.
PN260
When did that take place, just roughly?---It was during November.
PN261
Was it on one occasion or more than one?---No. Well, we met with the different managers of the different departments at different times.
PN262
Okay?---Yes. So there was a couple of meetings that it took to get these together.
PN263
Yes?---So basically, yes, we sat down with the managers of the variety of departments and identified possible opportunities that we could work around. Now, from the union point of view and the company point of view the idea was to not to try and make it too big. If we tried to make it too big then there would be too many fish hooks so to speak. So we tried to make it as clean as we could so that it could actually go forward.
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PN264
Okay?---I have to say that it wasn't the union's preference linking the productivities to the concept but it was an option that we looked at to progress the issue.
PN265
What happened with them then?---We went through the two week communication sessions with the members and then it went to a mass - - -
PN266
Just explain the two week sessions?---That was the - - -
PN267
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why do I need to know that,
Mr McLane?
PN268
MR McLANE: All right. No, it's just not important, ma'am.
PN269
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I might just raise at this stage that certainly the efforts of the union to provide itself compromises or options and to look genuinely at the company's, I think the evidence is made out.
PN270
MR McLANE: Thank you, ma'am.
PN271
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will have an exchange with you about it's relevance to the terms used in the EBA as opposed to its relevance as to what might be the confines of the Commission determining this dispute.
PN272
MR McLANE: Yes, ma'am.
PN273
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is for that reason that I think I have got the flavour of this issue pretty well now.
PN274
MR McLANE: I will move on in that evidence. I will just move on with it then.
PN275
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, yes.
PN276
MR McLANE: Thank you.
PN277
Now, Mr Price, if we could just go now to the next document?---This is these ones?
PN278
Sorry, number nine, and that just relates to the same things we have been discussing, does it?---That's McCoy travel. This is a notice of information meeting.
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PN279
Yes?---Yes. It's one again, yes, combined unions meeting. It was a paid meeting as all the meetings - - -
PN280
We will just move on then because the Commission doesn't need to hear any more evidence or comments here in relation to you and your colleagues' efforts.
PN281
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The documents will speak for themselves.
PN282
MR McLANE: Okay. At 10, once again I think outcome of the
meetings?---Yes.
PN283
And just what happened when that proposal was put to the membership?---Yes, we put to them the offer from the company which was the $53.80 per fortnight, with the attached productivities as per the list there. The members rejected that proposal.
PN284
And why did they reject it?---They rejected it because they don't believe - they believed that the issue should be separate. They believed that the mining travel issue was an issue in itself and that productivities as such should be dealt with under the EBA.
PN285
Thank you. Now, if I can just go to 12 and if I could just ask you to identify that for the record?---Twelve, yes.
PN286
Just identify that, please?---Twelve is a map from the UBD Street Directory. It's just designed to give an idea of where the majority of people live and the location of the mining operations.
PN287
Just explain that to us, if you would, please?---Yes. As I say, it's not accurate by any means. It was merely done freehand. You can see, your Honour, map 560 and 559 is where the Pinjarra refinery is located. Heading to the right of the map, I suppose you could say, there is an asterisk marked Dell Park which was a mine site of Alcoa's operations and then you can see the asterisk further, more to your right and up a little bit is the Huntley point, and then there's another asterisk showing where the White Road crusher zone was, where the crusher was situated, and then there's another asterisk moving eastward again showing where the McCoy site is. And to the north there's a mark which is future mining which I believe is the Myara. I think it's called Myara. And the whole point of this is to identify. You can see that the Mandurah area is densely populated.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN288
Just point us to the Mandurah area?---Sorry. The Mandurah area is around that, 525/526 area. That's where Mandurah is, basically due west. I would say the majority of people live around the Mandurah area up to the Rockingham area and up towards Armadale and Kelmscott, is where the majority of people would live. As you can see there, the operation has over a number of years progressively moved east away from where everyone lives and that's the issue that we have today where the mining has continually moved away from that area.
PN289
All right. You have got Pinjarra refinery marked there?---Yes, yes.
PN290
How do people refer to that?---Generally refinery, Pinjarra, Pinjarra refinery.
PN291
So is it a site on its own?---Yes.
PN292
Dell Park, how do people refer to that?---Yes, the Dell Park mine site and as I say, this is before my time, but the Dell Park was before Huntley.
PN293
Yes?---So that was the original mine site, I suppose you could say, and I know there has been a number of crusher moves. But at Dell Park, Dell Park was the main site. That's where there was a security point. That's where the mobile maintenance workshops were. That's where administration was. So that was classed as a site.
PN294
Okay. And then what happened? How did Huntley come about?---I don't know the exact history but Huntley started up whilst Dell Park, I believe, was still in operation.
PN295
Okay. And what is Huntley?---Huntley, as far as we are concerned, is the mine site. It's a mine site. At Huntley it has everything there. It has a security point, it has a medical centre, has an administration block, has mobile maintenance workshops, all the facilities of a mine site, you know, tyre bays, everything, stores, everything there.
PN296
Okay. And do you concede that the White Road crusher site is part of the Huntley mine site?---Yes, I do because the White Road I believe was the fourth crusher site for Huntley. I don't know all the different crusher points but White Road was a crusher site.
PN297
Okay. And then we go across to McCoy and what do you say McCoy is?---Well, McCoy is another site. It's a new site.
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PN298
What type of site?---A mine site. I believe it's a mine site.
PN299
What facilities are at McCoy?---Everything. The company has closed down everything at Huntley. They have moved the security. They have moved the medical centre. They haven't moved the workshop but they have built a brand new workshop out there. So there's a new mobile workshop out there, stores, tyre bay, light vehicle bay. Everything is out at McCoy and everyone has moved, you know, everything has moved out of Huntley and Huntley now will only become an administration point, I believe, and I don't know the exact term used for the mining group, management type people, you know, office type people. It will become just an administration block I believe. The White Road, at White Road was just the crusher and there was some offices there for the production department people.
PN300
Okay?---I think there's a map. No, not in this bundle. In one of the other bundles showing pictures of the crusher sites. Yes, that's the one.
PN301
Ma'am, I would seek to tender further exhibits through this witness.
PN302
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I should catch up with what you have already provided to me.
PN303
MR McLANE: Yes, ma'am.
PN304
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That bundle of documents you wish me to mark. Well, maybe I should start with Mr Price's statement. That I think we addressed once before as to how I should consider the document titled Respondent's Submissions and the extent to which it can be considered Mr Price's statement. I don't think we got to the bottom of that issue. What are you proposing to do with the document titled Respondent's Submissions?
PN305
MR McLANE: They are submissions, ma'am. They're not a witness statement.
PN306
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So do you want me then to mark them on that basis?
PN307
MR McLANE: I think that's the way to go.
PN308
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN309
MR McLANE: And where Mr Price has gone to those annexures.
PN310
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Indeed. That's now his evidence, yes.
PN311
MR McLANE: Thank you, ma'am.
PN312
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Heelan, have you any objection to that?
PN313
MR HEELAN: No, your Honour. I had always taken them as being the respondent's submissions, just as ours were the applicant's, your Honour.
PN314
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, that's what we will do.
MR HEELAN: May it please the Commission.
EXHIBIT #AWU2 RESPONDENT'S SUBMISSIONS, INCLUDING DOCUMENT (D)
PN316
MR McLANE: Ma'am, could I just have leave to recover that document from Mr Price?
PN317
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which one? Yes, whatever you want to get back from him, that's fine. Now, I should make it clear that the only document I have - the exhibit AWU2 comprises only the document titled Respondent's Submissions, comprising six pages and signed by Mr Price on the sixth page. I have not yet marked any annexures. Some of them are statements of other witnesses you have foreshadowed and you can deal with them at the appropriate time. However, I believe I should mark as part of AWU2 document (d). I think that properly goes as part and parcel of Mr Price and so that will physically annexed to AWU2. You then had most recently been addressing the bundle of documents. It is the bundle you have been taking Mr Price through, through his statements. It is marked pages one through to 16, although there is more than the 16 pages, but it is 16 documents.
MR McLANE: Yes.
EXHIBIT #AWU3 BUNDLE OF 16 DOCUMENTS
PN319
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr McLane.
PN320
MR McLANE: Yes, thank you, ma'am.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN321
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, I have interrupted you, is this a convenient time for a five minute break?
PN322
MR McLANE: It certainly is, ma'am.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.30AM]
<RESUMED [11.42AM]
PN323
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr McLane.
PN324
MR McLANE: Thank you, your Honour. I would seek to tender a further bundle of documents through this witness, ma'am.
PN325
Can you just identify the first document in the bundle, please, Mr Price?---Yes, it's headed McCoy Emergency Evacuation (Hun). It's a picture of the layout, or a diagram I suppose is the correct word, a diagram of the layout of the Huntley mine site - sorry, the Huntley mine site - the McCoy mine site, and it shows you, although it's not very descriptive, but it shows everything at the mine site. If you are coming from the bottom left hand corner, what looks like a straight line is actually the conveyor belt.
PN326
Yes?---The line or the road that curves off to your left or to the top of the middle of the page is the access road to the mine site. The very first set of diagrams is what we call the Ampro system and all the sewerage treatment plant and all that sort of stuff. All the diagram depicts the mobile workshop, the employees' carpark. That's where the security point is, right near the carpark area there. To the top of the page you will see it's called Wattle Road.
PN327
Yes?---That is the mining equipment access into the facility. It's the park up area for the heavy earthmoving equipment and the access for the access for the heavy earthmoving equipment into the mobile workshop. The production offices are all there, crib rooms, amenities, you know, stores, everything is there. To the right of the map shows you what is called the crusher circle and where the actual crusher is situated, which is there on the right hand side, and the roads which looks like white lines marked on are actually haul roads where the heavy earthmoving equipment operates on. So basically it's a map of the whole place.
PN328
Okay. And can you see there one is headed McCoy Mine Site?---Yes, yes.
PN329
Who is the owner of this document?---Well, the author of the document listed on the bottom is Phil Daly who is a security guard and he has put this document together and his manager, Steve Smith, is the authoriser of the document who is the same level as the mobile maintenance manager, Jeremy Hall, and Irely Gamber and Ian Cardlini that have been discussing the McCoy travel with us.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN330
Okay. So it's an Alcoa document, is it?---Yes, absolutely.
PN331
Does that - no, where I won't go there, their evidence is clearly. If I could take you across to the second page?---Yes, the second page really is just more defined. It just shows what I was just explaining there, you know, the production carpark, production offices. It shows you the heavy vehicle workshop area. It shows you where the field bay is, where the trucks park up.
PN332
Can I just ask you to identify the crusher for me?---The crusher is on the right hand side, virtually in the centre of the page but to the right. You will see there the words crusher access road.
PN333
Yes?---If you just go above the word "c" for crusher, that's the crusher there. You can see how the heavy line roads come into that point.
PN334
Yes?---That's what they call the crusher circle. At Jarrahdale we used to call it the clover leaf.
PN335
And do you agree with the evidence of Mr Horne that when you say crusher circle you are talking about the same thing as he was?---Yes, I believe - yes, the crusher circle.
PN336
Yes?---Yes. That's the crusher circle.
PN337
Okay. So once again is it a crusher zone or is it something else?
PN338
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That might be a question for me.
PN339
MR McLANE: Sure, ma'am.
PN340
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I certainly understand the earlier evidence about the terminology that's used amongst employees who - - -
PN341
MR McLANE: I won't go into that any more, ma'am.
PN342
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. But that question probably gets pretty close to the things I might need to decide.
PN343
MR McLANE: Certainly, ma'am.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN344
If I could just take you across the page, Mr Price and just the significance of this one?---This one is an aerial picture of the Huntley site. Like the McCoy site, this is obviously identified for identifying the stormwater and waste scheme, but it depicts everything that you would have at a mine site and this is the Huntley one. An aerial picture shows the heavy vehicle workshops, it shows the light vehicle workshop, it shows you where the stores were, where the electrical department was, where the administration for Huntley was and is still, but that will be changing to mining administration. The right hand side, although you can't really see, the right hand bottom corner is the employees' carpark where employees currently are parking now. You can see the bottom back to the left is where the tyre bay was and you can see the road, White Road.
PN345
Yes?---That's the road out to the White Road crusher site and if you continue out on that road, and I think it's going to be called Huntley or something road, that will go out to McCoy. That road goes out to McCoy.
PN346
And what will happen to all of this infrastructure with the exception of the administration?---I trust that it's all going to be shut down. My understanding is, is that it will only be used for administration purposes for the mining group.
PN347
And would it be rehabilitated?---I suspect it would do. I think Alcoa's policy is to rehabilitate any land that they aren't using any more, or have no further use for.
PN348
Thank you?---But I can't be specific on that.
PN349
And if we go across to the next one?---The next one which is listed M4, it's just got the words White Road crusher. It's an aerial picture I suspect of the White Road crusher site. You can see the word crusher in the centre there.
PN350
Yes?---That's where the crusher was situated at White Road, or the two crushers.
PN351
And once again, a crusher circle?---Yes, it's not - you can define it. You can see the roads coming in.
PN352
Yes?---And there's one on the left top which has got Yulara written on it. That's the haul road coming into the crusher point. And down where you have got the White Road offices there you can see that's a haul road that used to come to the crusher site there. You can see there, there's White Road office down there.
PN353
Yes?---That was the office for the production people for what we call H40 department and that's all that was there, was just some offices for the foreman and the management of the production department. As you can see, there's no - and that's what I would call a crusher site.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN354
Yes?---There's no infrastructure there other than just that and recently there has been the fixed plant workshop was situated back down there as well.
Thank you. I would seek to tender that document, ma'am.
EXHIBIT #AWU4 TWO PAGE DOCUMENT RE MCCOY EMERGENCY EVACUATION (HUN)
PN356
MR McLANE: Mr Price, if I could just now take you back to exhibit AWU3 which is the bundle that you have there and take you to page 14?---Sorry, page?
PN357
Page 14?---Page 14, yes.
PN358
And there is a photograph, if you could just explain what that is?---Yes, this is very similar to the other map there of the Huntley site. This was a document put out by Alcoa relating to the moving of the Huntley security, but this map shows you basically the Huntley site again and it shows you where the new access road is going to go out to McCoy and White Road, as you can see the map there.
PN359
Yes?---You can see there that the road was closed on the 18th of the 12th and that was the road that had the normal access into Huntley. They have changed the access into the Huntley carpark area. You can see on there that Huntley security relocates to McCoy on the 18th of the 12th. However, I don't know if those dates were actually met because there were delays in operations out at McCoy so I don't know if they were the actual dates that these things did occur, but that's basically what it is there.
PN360
Okay. If I could take you to page 15. If I could just ask you to - look, I won't. It's a matter for another witness. If I could just take you to the last document, number 16?---Yes. Can you just identify that document for me?---This is a notice put out by Kim Horne. It was placed on all the noticeboards and this was after, if I remember rightly, it was after he had written to the employees informing them on the date that he required them to change the start and finish point. This document identifies that they had difficulties with the operations out at McCoy, the infrastructure being put in place, and as such it had been delayed. And as you can see, he refers to relocating our start and finish point and identifies that the issues that had been raised with the union were being worked through by the proper process, ie. the Industrial Relations Commission, and it was hoped by all concerned that an outcome would soon be reached and he says that he will keep them informed of the progress of the project and then people would be advised, contrary to the letter that they had received, due to the project not being completed, as to when they would expect us to move.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN361
Okay. If I can just stop you there and if I could - ma'am, could I have leave, please, just to show the witness the affidavit of Mr Horne?
PN362
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, any particular - - -
PN363
MR McLANE: I am sorry, I didn't get the exhibit number.
PN364
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ALCOA2. Any particular page?
PN365
MR McLANE: Yes, ma'am, at annexure one.
PN366
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN367
MR McLANE: No, sorry, annexure - I am sorry, Mr Price and Commission and everything, it's actually annexure 12 that I wanted to go to.
PN368
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I just have a quick look again? As a general rule the exhibits which have been assigned the exhibit number I prefer to have put to witnesses because then I can always be confident that what their evidence relates to is a document I have, but sometimes I can't help myself but to mark them up and accordingly that is why I just wanted to make sure I hadn't put flags on that. You were going to annexure 12, were you?
PN369
MR McLANE: That's correct, ma'am.
PN370
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very good.
PN371
MR McLANE: It's a letter dated 15 October.
PN372
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN373
MR McLANE: Is that the letter that you just referred to, Mr Price?---Yes.
PN374
Can I just take you to the first paragraph. You will see that Mr Horne mentions the new McCoy crusher zone and then at the first point number one, could I take you to point number one:
PN375
The relocation of your work area from the exhibit White Road crusher zone to the McCoy crusher zone is a relocation within the Huntley site operation, and the company is entitled under relevant provisions of the applicable EBAs to direct employees to work in any area of the site operation as the company may from time to time, reasonably require (subclause 7(b) of the relevant AWU, AMWU and CEPU agreements).
PN376
Did you follow me through that?---Yes, I did.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN377
I just want to look at the first sentence there where on the second page where it says:
PN378
White Road crusher zone to the McCoy crusher zone there is a relocation within the Huntley site operation.
PN379
Do you accept that?---No, I don't.
PN380
Okay. And:
PN381
The company is entitled under relevant provisions of the applicable EBAs to direct employees to work in any area of the site operation as the company may from time to time reasonably require.
PN382
Clause 7(b) of the relevant agreements. Do you agree with that part of it?---I agree that the company has the right to move us around the site operation under the EBA to utilise my skills if they need to me to work at a certain point and I have the appropriate skills and knowledge and everything else, then I believe the company has got the right to do that.
PN383
Thank you. I just seek to tender a further document, ma'am. I am finished with that one now, thank you.
PN384
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN385
MR McLANE: Can you just identify this one for us, Mr Price?---Yes, it's a copy of the front page of a booklet that Alcoa had on their monthly staff salary systems which was given to us when we were negotiating the annualised wage agreement back in the early 90s.
PN386
Does this document relate to the evidence you gave earlier about the salaries and annualised salaries?---Yes. Yes, it does, yes.
PN387
Okay. And on the second page?---Yes.
PN388
How does a job get graded?---It - - -
PN389
And do you identify it's three criteria really for the Hay and Aquios systems, if I am correct?---Correct.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN390
Being know how, problem solving and accountability?---Yes.
PN391
Does this document relate to that evidence?---Yes, it does, yes.
Thank you. I would seek to that document as well, ma'am.
EXHIBIT #AWU5 COPY OF FRONT PAGE OF BOOKLET FOR MONTHLY STAFF SYSTEMS
PN393
MR McLANE: Mr Price, this current dispute that exists, what is the feeling of your membership on the ground?---The membership feel very strongly about the issue. The view of the members is that they believe that it is reasonable for them to be remunerated for the additional kilometres that they travel. There is very clearly an issue with the fact that we are paid as per the salary system that we use, that someone in a refinery scenario is graded under the same system, yet quite clearly we have to drive the additional kilometres to get to our point of work. The members feel very strongly about the issue and they believe that the company had intended to resolve the issue and the membership believe that the company can, for want of a word. It's within their capabilities.
PN394
What practical solution on the ground would resolve the issue?---Well, I think something that addressed both the financial additional costs that our members are going to encounter and something that addresses the time frame that people are going to encounter as well.
PN395
Would the continuation of the bus system fix the problem?---Only if the travelling was within the paid time, I believe.
PN396
Okay. Do you want to see this dispute resolved?---Yes, absolutely, yes. And I believe the members do too.
PN397
Are you willing to - well, have you approached it with an open mind?---Yes, absolutely.
PN398
And are you willing to continue to do so?---Yes.
PN399
What difficulties did you face with the membership when you took the interim proposal back to them after the last hearing?---Quite a lot. The membership felt that they were doing everything that they could possibly do to make sure that the operation was continuing to produce tonnes. Their view was that the travel component was only a small impact on the operation and that they didn't believe that they should have to do the additional travel in their own time and they, for want of a word, weren't very happy to implement the interim arrangement. Nevertheless, they accepted the principle of it and the reason it was proposed. So they accepted the principle - - -
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN400
Was it a hard sell?---Yes, it was. It was as hard sell.
PN401
Did it almost run off the rails?---Well, it was rejected at one point. Very clearly from my point of view the intent of the interim arrangement was for employees to work no more than 12 hour shifts at McCoy and that was based on my concerns and concerns that members have raised to me about the time frame from home to home and as such, when we went back from the Commission hearing on 20 December we were instructed to meet with the three managers.
PN402
Okay. Who were they?---That was Ian Cardlini, the Huntley production manager, Jeremy Hall, the mobile maintenance manager and Irely Gamber, the fixed plant manager.
PN403
Did you meet with these gentlemen?---Yes, we did.
PN404
Who was with you?---There was Cliff Gregory from the AMWU, Ralph Della from the CEPU. Without checking my personal notes, I would say that it's possible that Steve Ratton was there, an AMWU convener, and possibly Graham Allen may have been present me as well, my proxy convener.
PN405
Okay?---But I can't be absolute on - - -
PN406
How did the meeting go?---The meeting went very well from our point of view. We went through the process. The first thing we did is we went out and we did a trial, a dummy run to identify the time frame between Huntley and McCoy. We actually did a physical walk to the points and we worked out the time frame that it would take people to get from Huntley to McCoy and then back to Huntley again.
PN407
Okay. When you say we, is that union people or union and company
people?---No, just the union people. We did that. We then met with the company after we had done that exercise.
PN408
Yes?---And to work out and agree on the time frame of the travel.
PN409
Okay. How did that go?---That went no problems. We successfully agreed on the time frame which we agreed that 45 minutes was the time that the employees would accrue to travel to McCoy and back to Huntley again.
PN410
All right?---In that there was some minor disagreements, I suppose you could say, where the unions believed that the 12 hours at McCoy would include five minutes at the start of the shift for the employees to go to their amenities locker and get whatever appropriate protective equipment and stuff that they needed for their particular job and at the end of the shift they would have that same five minutes to put all that gear away. Now, the only disagreement we did have was that the company didn't agree that the five minutes at the start of the shift should be within the 12 hours where the unions believed that it should be. They agreed that the five minutes at the end of the shift would be in the 12 hours but not the start. Consequently the company did agree in the end only for the interim, although they disagreed with the principle, but in the interim they would allow the five minutes to be on either end of the shift in the 12 hours.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XN MR MCFARLANE
PN411
All right. Did it almost run off the rails at one stage?---Well, it did.
PN412
Why did it almost run off the rails?---Well, because the principal agreement in the Commission was for employees to do no more than 12 hours at McCoy.
PN413
Who wanted to change that?---The production manager, Ian Cardlini, insisted on the production employees doing 12.5 at McCoy. On the Tuesday that we met and I don't know what the exact date was.
PN414
It doesn't matter?---On the Tuesday that we met with the managers we went through it and I insisted that the 12 hours was the intent of the agreement, 12 hours at McCoy. He either wanted the employees to do the 12.5 at McCoy, plus the 45 minutes travel, or he wanted us to change to a different roster that wasn't established as yet.
PN415
Okay. And what did you think Mr Cardlini was doing?---Well, I believe that he was trying to use the interim agreement to get the 12.5 shifts at McCoy so that he could effect a changeover at McCoy. That's what I believe he was trying to do.
PN416
All right, thank you. Ma'am, that does me. I have got no further - - -
PN417
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Heelan.
MR HEELAN: I am sorry, your Honour.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN [12.11PM]
PN419
MR HEELAN: Mr Price, could you explain your role in the AWU structure within the mining division?---In the mining division did you say? I don't have a role in the mining division. I am the Huntley secretary/convener.
PN420
Do you represent the Willowdale employees as well?---No, I don't.
PN421
Only Huntley?---That's correct.
PN422
The company has two mine sites, has it not?---That's correct.
PN423
They being Huntley and Willowdale?---Yes.
PN424
There is no third or fourth?---Not to my knowledge.
PN425
And both of those mine sites are large in terms of their land area?---Yes. I expect you could say that.
PN426
And you have been a shop steward since around about 1999?---No, I think I have been a shop steward longer than that.
PN427
Since before 1999?---Yes, yes.
PN428
And as a shop steward you would be involved in regular shop stewards meetings?---That's correct.
PN429
And so you would be across the issues throughout Alcoa's mining operations, would you not?---Not necessarily, no. Depending on what level you hold at the site. Sorry, I don't understand your question.
PN430
We will take it a bite at a time. Do you have regular shop stewards
meetings?---Yes.
PN431
Do they involve shop stewards from Huntley and Willowdale?---No, they only have special - every now and then there may be an issue that would require a special meeting. As a normal course of events you don't have joint shop stewards meetings.
PN432
If there was an issue of significance would that be raised with the shop stewards from the other location?---If there's an issue that has the potential to impact on another part of the operation or something like that, yes.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN433
How about the McCoy move, has that been raised in that manner?---The specific issue of the McCoy thing obviously wasn't an issue for Willowdale directly, but when the concept of the mining special allowance was arrived at, I suppose you could say, then it was an issue that could affect them, yes.
PN434
Why do you say that the McCoy issue was not an issue for the Willowdale employees?---Because they don't work there.
PN435
I am sorry?---Because they don't work there.
PN436
At McCoy?---Yes.
PN437
But they have been subjected to the same change, haven't they?---No.
PN438
No. I will come to that in a moment. Mr Price, you prepared the AWU submission in relation to these proceedings?---That's correct.
PN439
And your evidence-in-chief was that the first you had heard of a reference to zones or crusher zones was when you read Mr Horne's affidavit?---Yes, that's correct.
PN440
You hadn't previously seen any reference to zones or crusher zones?---Not that I recall, no.
PN441
Your Honour, I would ask that the witness be shown exhibit AWU3.
PN442
Mr Price, if you could turn to page five of that?---The one marked number five?
PN443
The one marked with number five in the circle, that being an email from Mr Kim Horne to yourself on 22 June 2004?---Yes.
PN444
Do you see any reference to zones in that document?---Yes, it says regions or zones.
PN445
Yes, zones. So the first you heard of zones couldn't have been when you read Mr Horne's affidavit, could it?---No, not there.
PN446
I am sorry?---No, that's correct.
PN447
Being as kind as possible to you, the earliest would have been when you read
Mr Horne's email back in June 2004?---Yes.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN448
And indeed there was also a reference to zones in the written direction of the company to employees, wasn't there?---Sorry, can you describe that in more detail to me?
PN449
You received a written direction from the company to change to McCoy?---The letter that the company sent us you are referring to?
PN450
Yes, yes. There was a reference to zones in that as well, wasn't there?---I don't recall.
PN451
You don't recall?---If you want to show it to me.
PN452
Perhaps, your Honour, if I could ask that the witness be shown exhibit ALCOA2. I am happy to - - -
PN453
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, do that.
PN454
MR HEELAN: If I may have leave, your Honour?
PN455
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN456
MR HEELAN: Mr Price, you have in front of you exhibit ALCOA2 being
Mr Horne's affidavit?---Yes.
PN457
And I have opened it out to the page. I think it's annexure 12, is that correct?
---Yes, that's correct.
PN458
And do you agree that that document is the written direction that the company issued to employees?---That is correct.
PN459
Do you see any reference to zones in there?---Yes, it's in the first paragraph.
PN460
And when was that written direction sent to employees, Mr Price?---Well, it's dated here 15 October. I think it was sent in early November.
PN461
If you could just go back to the first page of the document that you have in front of you, the first page of Mr Horne's affidavit. Is there a Commission stamp on the front of that?---Yes, it's dated 9 December.
PN462
9 December. And so the very earliest you could have read Mr Horne's affidavit was 9 December?---Absolutely.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN463
Do you have experience outside of Alcoa in mining?---No.
PN464
You referred earlier to Alcoa having two mine sites, those being Huntley and Willowdale, correct?---Yes.
PN465
And within each of those mine sites there are several crusher zones, are there not?---Well, we have never referred to them as crusher zones. We refer to them as crusher sites.
PN466
Crusher sites?---Crusher point.
PN467
Where the crusher is located within the mine site, is that correct?---Yes.
PN468
And over time the crusher changes, doesn't it?---It changes position, yes.
PN469
Yes. It changes locality?---Yes.
PN470
It moves from point A to point B, a little later it will move to point C, correct?
---Yes.
PN471
And those sorts of changes are an inherent requirement of bauxite mining operations, are they not?---I believe so, yes.
PN472
And the moves of crusher zones, or where the crusher is located, whatever one wants to refer to it as, those moves are to fit in with the company's requirements and to maximise the efficiency of the mine site operations, do you agree?---Can you run that past me again?
PN473
Those sorts of crusher zone moves are to fit in with the company's requirements and maximise the efficiency of the mine site operations?---Yes, designed to minimise the distance between the ore is and where the crusher is.
PN474
And it's a juggling exercise, isn't it, to maximise efficiency?---I expect so, yes.
PN475
And mining bauxite is a bit like dirt farming, isn't it?---I have never farmed dirt.
PN476
Well, bauxite is extracted from a relatively shallow depth?---I believe so, yes, that's correct.
PN477
And it involves large areas of land?---Yes.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN478
Not dissimilar to mineral sand mining?---I am not familiar with mineral sand mining.
PN479
Are you familiar with any other form of mining?---No.
PN480
Mr Price, you have been aware of the proposed move to McCoy for a long period of time?---Yes.
PN481
Several years?---Yes.
PN482
Indeed the road to McCoy was being constructed right in front of the workplace, wasn't it?---Yes.
PN483
And the mere fact that that road was being constructed meant that the circumstances at McCoy were going to be quite different to the circumstances at White Road?---I don't follow you. What do you mean circumstances?
PN484
The construction of that road?---I don't understand your question.
PN485
For a long period of time the employees have seen the road to McCoy being constructed?---Yes, that would be the production employees, yes.
PN486
Have seen the road to McCoy being constructed?---Yes.
PN487
That's a highway grade bitumen road?---I don't know it's a highway grade bitumen road but it's a bitumen road.
PN488
You have seen it?---Yes, I have seen it.
PN489
It's bitumen?---Yes.
PN490
Does it look like highway grade to you?---It looks like a bitumen road to me.
PN491
Answer the question.
PN492
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I don't think it's a fair question to ask?---I don't know what a highway grade road is. I mean it's a bitumen road.
PN493
To require Mr - no, Mr - - - ?---Sorry.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN494
When you are front you should be quiet. I don't think it's a fair question to require him to answer, Mr Heelan.
PN495
MR HEELAN: Yes, your Honour.
PN496
Was there a bitumen road constructed to White Road?---No, there wasn't.
PN497
That's because it was a bubble at White Road, wasn't it?---Could you explain what you mean by that?
PN498
The environmental bubble?---The die back constraints?
PN499
Yes?---Yes.
PN500
So even if employees wanted to drive their own vehicle to White Road the company would not permit it, would they?---Any vehicle travelling across a certain point would require wash down.
PN501
And would the company permit employees to drive their own vehicles to White Road?---I don't know. I don't know.
PN502
Would you want to drive your own vehicle through the wash down facility on a regular basis?---No, I wouldn't.
PN503
Now, representatives of your union participated in discussions and meeting with Mr Horne and other company representatives in relation to the McCoy move from around two years ago - I withdraw that. Representatives of your union participated in discussions and meetings with Mr Horne and other company representatives in relation to the McCoy move around two years prior to the implementation of the current certified agreement, is that correct?---Well, I wasn't present at any of those meetings to my knowledge so I can't comment on that.
PN504
Do you have any knowledge of meetings taking place?---Yes, I believe there were.
PN505
And does that stretch back to around two years prior to the certified agreement being implemented?---I would suspect so.
PN506
And the McCoy move was raised by the AWU in the certified agreement negotiations?---I believe so.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN507
It was part of the discussions and negotiations leading to the 2003 certified agreement?---I believe so.
PN508
And the company has always maintained that it would not pay for travel to McCoy, is that correct?---I believe so, yes.
PN509
The company has never changed its position, has it?---I don't think it has. Well, it depends on what you call pay. The company has offered a transport system from North Dandalup or Pinjarra points to transport people to McCoy, now, that's a cost so the company said they would pay for that.
PN510
The company offered to put on a bus and meet the cost of the bus service?---I believe so.
PN511
So long as employees travelled in their own time?---Yes.
PN512
Correct?---I believe that was the offer.
PN513
But the company has always maintained it wouldn't agree to a travel allowance in relation to McCoy, hasn't it?---Yes.
PN514
And the union didn't like that, did they?---I suspect not.
PN515
And the company's position has always been consistent, has it not?---You could say that.
PN516
And the company's position has been it's the responsibility of employees to get to the work site?---Yes.
PN517
And that's the generally accepted principle, isn't it?---I don't know how I could answer that one.
PN518
Isn't it usual for employees to travel to their workplace?---Yes.
PN519
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Across industry.
PN520
MR HEELAN: Across industry.
PN521
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As a general question?---Yes.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN522
MR HEELAN: In their own time?---Yes.
PN523
In their own cars?---Yes.
PN524
Now, the union has wanted extra rewards for employees to travel to McCoy, hasn't it?---Well, when you say the union, are you talking the union and its members or are you talking just the union?
PN525
The membership that you represent?---The membership, yes.
PN526
They wanted extra reward for travelling to McCoy?---Well, I don't think you would call it extra. They wanted it to be cost neutral.
PN527
What do you mean by that?---That the additional cost in dollar terms would be covered.
PN528
So do they want the company to pay them any extra money?---Cost neutral can bring many forms, whether it be absolute just straight dollars or whether it be some other sort of remuneration.
PN529
Some other form of remuneration?---Yes.
PN530
Like what?---Or form. Well, for example, relocation so that they don't incur any additional travel.
PN531
But where would they relocate to?---Somewhere closer.
PN532
But what the workers want is more money, isn't it?---Well, if you're talking about what they take home in their pay packet, no, they're asking that - - -
PN533
That wasn't my question?---Well, more money for what?
PN534
For travelling to McCoy?---Yes.
PN535
That's what they want, isn't it?---I don't know if that's absolute, no, because we're talking I present over 200 people and as we have stated before, the impact on those people are different depending on their situations. So as we have said before, there's not necessarily just one answer to resolve this issue. Money might be one issue for one person but the position or the distance travelled, or the time and that might be an issue for someone else. So as we have said before, there isn't necessarily one answer for the resolution of this issue.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN536
But Mr Price, isn't the position of the majority of the employees you represent that they want extra money to travel to McCoy?---I don't think that's the appropriate way to describe it as all our employees are saying is that they earn X amount of money in their fortnightly pay and all they are asking is that the move to McCoy be cost neutral. That's all they're asking for.
PN537
Does that involve them getting extra money from the company?---It would have an extra in cost on the company, yes.
PN538
Do the employees want to receive more money to offset some of their costs?
---Well, when they're stopping at the petrol bowser and putting more fuel in, I would suspect that the fuel company would want the
money for the fuel, yes.
PN539
So are you agreeing with me that the employees want extra money from the company?---Yes.
PN540
Now, the company's proposal to offer a bus in employee time would be cost neutral, would it not?---It would address the cost side of it, yes.
PN541
Now, the company's response to the request or claims for extra money from employees has been a rejection, correct?---Not an absolute rejection, no.
PN542
Hasn't the company said we don't pay for travel except in exceptional circumstances?---Yes.
PN543
That's been the company's position and those exceptional circumstances are, where for example, there is environmental reasons such as the bubble in relation to White Road?---That's not - when you're talking about the travel - sorry, I don't understand. Can you run that past me again?
PN544
Well, the employees have had a position which says they want it to be cost neutral from their point of view. I will get you to explain that a little bit further in a minute. But that inherently involves more money from the company, is that correct?---Yes, it would be, yes.
PN545
And the company's response has been we don't pay for travel?---Well, that's not absolute because the company did offer us money for travel plus that figure could increase if you attach productivities to it, so - - -
PN546
Is this in relation to the discussions following the proceedings before Commission Thatcher?---Prior to that.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN547
I am sorry?---Prior.
PN548
Prior to that?---Yes.
PN549
Hasn't the company's position always been it will not consider travel claims?
---Well, that's what it's been saying but it offered us the mining special allowance concept.
PN550
I am sorry, is that in relation to travel?---Yes.
PN551
But you had a mining special allowance previously, didn't you?---Under the award there was, yes.
PN552
And the award still prescribes a mining special allowance?---I believe so, yes.
PN553
But hasn't the company's position in relation to the McCoy claims been we don't pay for travel?---Well, the company has been saying that but they have been entertaining the concept of a mining special allowance.
PN554
That was for other reasons, was it not?---I suppose you could say it was a play on words.
PN555
Well, were you at the conference before Commissioner Thatcher?---Yes, I was.
PN556
Didn't the company's representatives make it abundantly clear at that conference that the company would not entertain payment for travel?---By itself, yes.
PN557
That was the company's position, is that correct?---Yes, that's correct.
PN558
At the conference before Commissioner Thatcher?---Yes, I believe that's correct.
PN559
And that's consistently been the company's position, has it not?---Yes, it has.
PN560
And this concept of the mining special allowance was for other reasons totally separate to the travel claim, was it not?---No, I don't believe that was correct. I believe that - - -
PN561
Wasn't that the company's position?---I believe it was for travelling to the mine sites.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN562
But hadn't the company always said it would not entertain any payment for travel?---Yes, it has.
PN563
And the discussions in relation to the mining special allowance were in relation to productivity improvements, were they not?---Not by itself, no. It was in relation to travel. That's why we called it the mining special allowance and we talked about the geographical position of the mine site. So it was a variety of things, travel included.
PN564
So do I take it that your belief is that those discussions were intended to compensate the Huntley employees for the move of crusher zone from White Road to McCoy?---Can you run that question past me again.
PN565
Do I take it that your belief is that the discussions in relation to the mining special allowance that you believe that really what the company intended was to compensate the employees affected by the move of crusher zone from White Road to McCoy to compensate them for the additional travel involved?---Not specifically. I believe the concept was to address the obvious disadvantage that mining employees have travelling to the mine sites compared to refineries.
PN566
But it had nothing to do with the change to McCoy, did it?---Beg your pardon?
PN567
I withdraw that. Did the company's proposal in relation to the mining special allowance have anything to do with the issue involving travel to McCoy?---Well, my understanding is it was to address that issue and the general issue that mining people encounter with the fact that mining is continuous and it moves.
PN568
So is your belief that it was to address the McCoy - in part, to address the McCoy travel issue?---Yes.
PN569
Why then did it apply to Willowdale?---Because Willowdale is in the same situation as what the Huntley employees are, where over a period of time operations move and they may not have the situation affecting them directly today but tomorrow who knows.
PN570
But they have done in the past, haven't they?---What's that?
PN571
Willowdale employees have been affected by a similar change as the McCoy change in the - - -?---Willowdale, I believe Willowdale has had a number of crusher moves and to my knowledge, particularly the last move, in fact the majority of employees actually ended up with a couple of kilometres less. Some employees my have ended up with a few more kilometres. It just depends on where they live.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN572
But the bottom line in relation to all of this is that there has been a claim for extra money and the company has rejected it?---No, I don't think it's correct to say there's been a claim. I believe that the parties have been exploring options to try and address the issues that mining people have in relation to travel, but there hasn't been an actual formal claim. The parties have certainly been involved in discussions with the parties.
PN573
I thought there was a reference to $50?---Yes, that was an option. That was one of the options.
PN574
Another reference to $70?---I don't recall a specific $70 one.
PN575
Your Honour, could I ask that the witness be shown exhibit AWU3?
PN576
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think he might still have it?---Sorry. It's in here is it? This one.
PN577
MR HEELAN: Mr Price, could I ask you to turn to page 10 of that exhibit?
---Yes.
PN578
This is a notice put out by yourself?---That's correct.
PN579
In relation to the mining travel issue?---That's correct.
PN580
Following a mass meeting on Thursday, 2 December?---That's correct.
PN581
And in the third paragraph there is a reference there to the senior representatives proposing a without prejudice offer of $70 per fortnight gross?---Yes.
PN582
Without productivity links?---Yes.
PN583
Was that a claim?---No, it was a suggestion. It was just the opinion of the conveners of what we believed the membership believed that the mining special allowance was worth and we suggested that as an idea of the sort of figure that the membership might believe is appropriate for the mining special allowance concept.
PN584
Is this a mining special allowance or is this in relation to the travel claim?---No, this was the mining special allowance concept.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN585
The meeting was in relation to the mining travel issue?---That's correct.
PN586
In paragraph three you record that the proposal is on the basis of there not being productivity links?---Yes, that's correct. This was in relation to the company's concept about the mining allowance and we believe that the mining allowance should be a stand alone issue and that we believe that productivity should be addressed under the EBA.
PN587
So the senior representatives put this up as an option which may fix the issue?
---Yes, the mining special allowance issue.
PN588
And also the travel to McCoy issue?---Yes, probably would, yes.
PN589
And so if the company had agreed to this then you would have complied with the company direction to report to work at McCoy?---I can't say that. It was a suggestion from the senior representatives of what we felt the membership might accept and it was just in a situation where we were trying to find a way of resolving the mining special allowance concept and we suggested that that might be something that would be acceptable to the membership and unless the membership have had a vote or made a decision on it we can only speculate.
PN590
But you're the representative?---That's correct.
PN591
So what did you have in mind by floating this proposal?---That was the feedback we had been receiving from the floor as to what the people believed the value of the travel amount was worth and I don't know how you would put it. As senior representatives we get feedback from our membership. You have to appreciate that I have over 200 members just at Huntley alone. So for us to identify exactly what the membership require and what all the membership issues are, it's very difficult to pinpoint exactly what the membership want or need, or whatever the words you want to put it until such time as they have a vote. But I believe as a representative it's our responsibility to explore all options and to mediate, I suppose, between the company and those members to try and find solutions to resolve the issues. So it was really just our gut feel I suppose of the membership's opinion.
PN592
And what did you have in mind that the company would get in return?---I beg your pardon?
PN593
What did you have in mind that the company would get in return?---Nothing.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN594
Nothing? Just pay $70 a fortnight?---Yes.
PN595
And continue to have the same hassles in relation to the McCoy transfer?---No, who said that?
PN596
Well, isn't it inherent in this proposal, the $70 per fortnight, that if the company paid up that the non compliance of the company's
direction would have ceased?
---You can only speculate that was the case. Sorry, I don't understand your question.
PN597
Was it the view of the senior representatives that the $70 per fortnight proposal would fix the McCoy travel issue?---No, it wasn't the view that it would. It was the view that it might. There was no absolute. As I said, unless the membership vote and make a decision, then we can only speculate as representatives.
PN598
But at the time the senior representatives formulated this proposal they and you must have had something in mind?---Sorry, which proposal are you talking about?
PN599
The $70 per fortnight proposal?---That was just a suggestion.
PN600
But surely to fix the McCoy travel issue?---Well, we are talking about the mining special allowance concept which would apply to all mining employees for the disadvantage of travelling out to their workplaces as compared to refineries.
PN601
Including McCoy?---Yes.
PN602
And the company, consistent with the position arrived at in the conciliation proceedings before Commissioner Thatcher, the company had put a position that was linked to productivity?---That's correct, yes.
PN603
And the people you represented rejected that?---That's correct, yes.
PN604
You then in December 2004, you and your representatives, float a proposal in relation to the mining allowance on the basis that it
has no productivity links?
---No, I think you have got it out of order there. We talked about the $70 issue after we had the feedback sessions with the crews.
We represented what the company position was regarding their offer and the proposal we put as the mining disadvantage and that was
prior to the mass meeting where the employees rejected the company's offer. That $70 was discussed with the managers prior to that
mass meeting.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN605
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is this a convenient time, Mr Heelan?
PN606
MR HEELAN: Yes, your Honour.
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have some matters listed at 12.45 that need to be attended to. I propose that we resume again at two? Any problems? May I ask the advocates to use their best endeavours to ensure all witness evidence is completed today. The Commission will now adjourn.
<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.43PM]
<RESUMED [2.03PM]
<SIMON FREDERICK PRICE, ON FORMER OATH [2.03PM]
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN, CONTINUING
PN608
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Heelan.
PN609
MR HEELAN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN610
Mr Price, you said that you have 200 members at Huntley?---Approximately.
PN611
That's the Huntley mine site operations?---Yes.
PN612
Which would extend from members working at the Pinjarra refinery?---There are employees that we cover, yes, that work down there, yes.
PN613
Through to Dell Park?---Yes.
PN614
Through to White Road?---Yes.
PN615
Through to McCoy?---Yes.
PN616
Because all of those areas are part of the Huntley mine site operation?---Beg your pardon?
PN617
Because all of those forms part or are in the Huntley mine site operation?---As the company states.
PN618
Yes. You are aware that when Mr McDade had discussions with Mr Horne about the company paying for travelling to McCoy Mr Horne laughed and - - - ?---You need to be a bit more specific.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN619
Do you have the union's submission in front of you, Mr Price, exhibit AWU2?
---Is that the one with the numbers on top?
PN620
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could you just pause for a moment?
PN621
MR HEELAN: Certainly.
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Actually I might ask you to leave the court room for a short time, Mr Price, because I want to pursue an issue relation to this topic or this line of questioning and it is better I do so in your absence. So if you would just remain outside the court room for a short time we will come and collect you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.05PM]
PN623
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The issue before me is the interpretation and determination of the dispute. The matter in dispute and its constituent elements is becoming reasonably clear. What you will be apart on is what my role can be to interpret and determine it. On the face of it, an interpretation and determination will possibly be no more than applying the words of the EBA to the matter in dispute. It might be wider and the determination might necessitate me to take into account wider issues and hence I would be interested in hearing perhaps more of the evidence that at first blush I normally would have thought was relevant to the topic.
PN624
The fact that the union made claims to resolve the dispute and the different forms they took and whether or not stripped to their bare essentials it was in effect a payment of an amount of money to make the issue go away and the issue being the disadvantages associated with extra travelling time. How much more do I need to hear about this?
PN625
MR HEELAN: About that particular aspect - - -
PN626
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, beforehand, before in earlier proceedings it is accepted that the black and white words of the EBA say no extra claims and no claims for travel other than in the circumstances covered by the EBA. Now, we can argue about what the circumstances are but that's unarguable, isn't it? Well, I shouldn't be saying that to you, but I understood from the union they say they can't say much about those words.
PN627
MR HEELAN: Yes, your Honour.
PN628
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They say there is an industrial dispute. They say that they are not making a claim against you, at least before me in the context of the EBA. They are saying that under the EBA they are entitled to be paid for travelling time in accordance with clause 14, or, I don't know, I haven't completely thought through how Mr McLane is going to develop the issue about McCoy being a new mine site and how the EBA impacts on employees being required to attend at a new mine site during the life of an EBA, haven't thought that one through completely. I have got some suspicions as to how it would develop. Now, that's a bit rambling, I know, but I am just wondering how much more I need to hear from Mr Price about motivation of the union, the way they packaged their claims from time to time, what would be acceptable to make the dispute go away. Why do I need to know more about that?
PN629
MR HEELAN: Yes, your Honour. I was actually proposing to move onto the history.
PN630
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.
PN631
MR HEELAN: The company's position is that what is now proposed is entirely consistent with what has happened on a range of occasions in the past.
PN632
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And to what end if you say you are on strong grounds under the EBA. You may have never in the past have done other than pay for travel but your current EBA may say no extra payment for travel, what does it matter? I know that that's not the case here but I am just wondering is it really just you are showing to me in the past that the current EBA and what you are saying should pertain under the EBA is consistent and the company has been consistent?
PN633
MR HEELAN: Well, essentially, your Honour, the company's position is on the one hand the history.
PN634
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN635
MR HEELAN: Where the company says it has adopted a consistent position, that is, that it does not pay for travel. It expects employees to get as close as reasonably practicable to the work site to commence work. There is a history of that occurring, for example, a change in crusher zone from Dell Park to Huntley, the change in the Willowdale mine site only a few years ago and certainly during Mr Price's time as a steward, the change from Arundel to Orion crusher zones, and a range of employees - I mean this has been challenged before and in the end the union has dropped it. However, on this occasion the union has pursued it with a lot more vigour than it has in the past and it has held up the company's implementation of the new arrangements.
PN636
The other aspect, your Honour, that in relation to the certified agreement itself where in the company's submission there is a fairly black and white position, with respect. However, I suppose there is two angles, your Honour. One is the inconsistency with past practice notwithstanding the EBA and the second is the spirit and intent of the EBA itself.
PN637
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know that past practice is necessarily of assistance to me in the role that the EBA gives the Commission under clause 18. That cuts both ways too of course. It has been certainly of assistance to me to understand various sites that have been worked and to grasp the terminology that's used by people on the ground, how they refer to a site over there, and then I am sure I will have some submissions about how the EBA refers to the various sites that are incorporated within the term Site Operation, and I am sure I will hear all of those submissions presumably tomorrow morning. But I just think it matters not one way or the other how the company has dealt with the movement of the crusher from time to time in the past during the period in which the enterprise bargaining agreement was not in existence.
PN638
MR HEELAN: The only reason, your Honour, that the company was going to that area was simply to demonstrate the consistency of the company's approach over many years. The issue - and I suppose to clarify the position in that in our respectful submission the existing circumstances of White Road cannot be looked at in isolation. They were truly unique and those sorts of circumstances aren't applicable here and for example - - -
PN639
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you have got evidence in on that and I don't think a lot of it was challenged. It was addressed in some detail in the affidavit of Mr Horne.
PN640
MR HEELAN: Yes, certainly, your Honour.
PN641
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It has been put in issue, a lot of that history of why White Road and the peculiarities and the requirements of Government and other environmental requirements. That is all in now. I don't think that was put in issue. The thing you say, and I don't know whether the evidence is to the contrary, in the past you haven't put the title travel and payment for travelling time on money you have given to union members and on this occasion you, consistent with that, say we don't pay for travelling time and we will not pay on this occasion for travelling time.
PN642
MR HEELAN: That's correct.
PN643
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's the position you put.
PN644
MR HEELAN: Your Honour, the only other - - -
PN645
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The union have made a claim and I know the evidence about - well, they too haven't put in large letters at the top of their claim payment for travelling time, but in your cross-examination you suggest to Mr Price that however you package it, however you deal with it, whether it's part of a productivity package or whether it just stands alone, a payment of extra money will make this issue go away and I can draw inferences from that one way or the other.
PN646
MR HEELAN: Which of course the company regards as a claim.
PN647
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, and we know there is a no extra claims in the EBA. I really think the role of the Commission which is to interpret and determine any issue, namely, the issue that has now been brought to me, will be interpreted and determined by reference to contractual obligations of one party to the other. The terms of the award haven't come at all here I don't think. I am interested in those and this, and the terms of the enterprise bargaining agreement. I alert you both, one thing that I will be assisted with tomorrow is whether when interpreting and determining any issue I am really just going through what I would call the fairly dry exercise of applying the strict words of the EBA to the matters in dispute, or whether the determining part of that role you two have agreed the Commission will have goes further and somehow considers in any way a merit outcome.
PN648
Because certainly if it is interpreting and determining the issue, in a sense not dissimilar to if you had a claim before a court and the court will look to see what the rights are of one side and the other under the EBA, that is a pretty dry exercise and I have said on another occasion I think it is quite possible, win, lose or draw either side, the industrial dispute will still exist. However, I am here sitting under the dispute settlement procedure, not in conciliation trying to resolve the dispute, because I had understood the parties took the view that conciliation had been given a good shot and was not likely to resolve the matter.
PN649
MR HEELAN: Certainly from the company's perspective, your Honour, what the company seeks is a declaration from the Commission as to what it has directed in accordance with the certified agreement and the contracts of employment - - -
PN650
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I understand. Yes, you put that quite succinctly last Thursday but it certainly has been put before, but when you were opposing the need for any inspections by identifying what you thought was the issue before me.
PN651
MR HEELAN: Yes, your Honour.
PN652
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think I fairly understand what you say it is. But let us say that is right and let us say in a determination that I hand down, let's say for argument's sake I agree wholly with you it is of course not likely that the industrial concern that Mr Price speaks of will go away, however it might be then that the union presses any issues or declines to comply with any directions, then in the knowledge that the Commission has interpreted the words in a certain way, but this issue has been around for sufficiently long for my concern to be that the underlying industrial issue will still be there.
PN653
MR HEELAN: Well, your Honour, I think the issue there is that - let's say that your Honour made a declaration saying that the company's direction was appropriate and employees should comply, if there was still an industrial issue, in my respectful submission that is a different matter entirely and that's something that the company would simply front up to and deal with. They are my instructions, your Honour.
PN654
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, there could be other consideration given to how it should be dealt with.
PN655
MR HEELAN: There would be a variety of matters in which the company could deal with that and my instructions are that the company would exercise those options.
PN656
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN657
MR HEELAN: That's a different matter to - that is an entirely different matter.
PN658
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And of course I haven't overlooked
1 July nominal expiry date of this agreement in the context of thinking through, well, I wonder where this whole issue is going.
PN659
MR HEELAN: Well, in my respectful submission it is an issue which could be raised after the expiry of the certified agreement and negotiations for a new agreement.
PN660
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Not practice I normally engaged in but I have been hearing this matter for a while, I would like to have a brief discussion with Mr McLane with Mr Price back in the court, and I understand his is under cross-examination so that is one of the several reasons why I raise it with you and Mr McLane and Mr Price can make a decision as to which of its members here instructing them should remain in the court. I know it's a difficult position to put you and your client into to say do you have any objection because you don't know what I am going to discuss with them, but I am going to put you in that difficult position. Do you have any objection?
PN661
MR HEELAN: Your Honour, may I have 10 seconds to take some instructions?
PN662
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Of course. Indeed. If you need longer, Mr Heelan, there is no problems.
PN663
MR HEELAN: Probably only seconds, your Honour, if I could?
PN664
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, of course.
PN665
MR HEELAN: Your Honour, in the interests of addressing the matter hastily we have no objection to what you propose.
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Well, could you and anyone instructing you leave the court room and send Mr Price back in. Madam reporter, I will go off transcript. In fact we will adjourn.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.20 PM]
<RESUMED [2.38PM]
<SIMON FREDERICK PRICE, RECALLED ON FORMER OATH [2.38PM]
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN, CONTINUING
PN667
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Heelan.
PN668
MR HEELAN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN669
Your Honour, could I ask that the witness be shown exhibit AWU4?---Yes.
PN670
Mr Price, is the document marked M1, the first page of exhibit AWU4, is that an official document?---To the best of my knowledge.
PN671
Is that all that's to the document?---There's a covering letter detailing the procedure I believe.
PN672
But this is, the page you have here, is a Huntley document, is that correct?
---Yes, it is.
PN673
Your Honour, could I ask that the witness be shown - and the reason for this is that I asked the witness be shown the complete document.
PN674
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN675
MR McLANE: Can I have a look?
PN676
MR HEELAN: Mr Price, you have two pages in front of you?---That's correct.
PN677
The front page of exhibit AWU4 in the bottom right hand corner indicates it's page 2 of 2?---That's correct.
PN678
What you have before you are pages 1 and 2 of that same document but the official version, do you agree?---Yes.
PN679
In the first paragraph on the first page does it refer to McCoy as being a mine site?---The first sentence?
PN680
In the first paragraph?---The first paragraph under the word "purpose"?
PN681
Yes, perhaps if you could just read out the first paragraph?---Right. It's titled Purpose:
PN682
The purpose of this tool box is to make all employees aware of the emergency evacuation process at the McCoy facility.
PN683
Facility, not mine site?---No.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN684
And further on have I highlighted some other areas on that page, Mr Price?---Yes, you have.
PN685
Could you just read out the next highlighted sentence for me, please?---
PN686
See attached map for location of emergency evacuation assembly points.
PN687
So that the cover page for this document refers to McCoy as being a facility?
---That's correct. That's the words there.
PN688
And the document is a Huntley document?---It says Huntley on the top right hand corner.
PN689
Yes, thank you. Could I ask that the witness be shown another document, your Honour, it's the witness's contract of employment which I did circulate by email on Friday afternoon.
PN690
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: May I indicate, Mr Price, that if you have any desire to have any part of this or any other documents comprising your personal contract of employment subject to any restricted access or there being no reference in the transcript to it, I would happy to entertain such a request. Personal contracts with individuals are one thing. EBAs are public documents certified here, but personal contracts are matters about which I have some sympathy if anyone wants to make an application in relation to that. That doesn't mean to say they are not in evidence before me. It just means that their terms aren't discussed on transcript, nor able to be accessed by people who wish to search this file. But having said all of that, I will do nothing more about it unless you or your advocate makes an application. Mr Heelan.
PN691
MR HEELAN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN692
Mr Price, is there anything about this document that you wish to be kept confidential?---No.
PN693
Do you agree that it's a generic type document?---Yes, I would, to the best of my knowledge.
PN694
Mr Price, could I simply ask you on the first page to read paragraph
three?---
PN695
In accepting employment with this company I understand I will be expected to work shift work as and when required. When working shift work I understand that I must remain at my place of work until replaced by an oncoming shift member or until advised otherwise by my foreman.
PN696
If I could now ask you to read the first sentence in paragraph four?---The first sentence in paragraph four?
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN697
Yes?---Okay.
PN698
I understand that I am to report regularly and at the appointed time and place as designated by the company.
PN699
Yes, thank you. Now, Mr Price, I put it to you that the direction Mr Horne issued late last year in relation to the move to McCoy is entirely consistent with his rights under your contract of employment, do you agree?---I would agree if it's at the Huntley mine site, yes.
PN700
If it's at the Huntley mine site. How many mine sites does the company have?
---Beg your pardon?
PN701
How many mine sites does the company have?---Well, at the moment, depending on which way you want to look at it, they have got two mine sites or you could say they are in transition between one and another.
PN702
Didn't' the company previously have three mine sites?---The company has had three mine sites.
PN703
That was Jarrahdale?---Yes.
PN704
Where you used to work?---That's correct.
PN705
And the closure of the Jarrahdale mine site led to offers being made to employees in accordance with company policy?---Can you run that past me again?
PN706
The closure of the Jarrahdale mine site led to the company making offers to affected employees in accordance with company policy?---Well, the Jarrahdale closure was discussed between the unions and the company and there were conditions coming from that. I don't know about company policy.
PN707
You were offered a relocation package?---That's correct.
PN708
And you knocked it back?---Can you explain that again, when you are saying relocation package?
PN709
Yes, the one you referred to in your evidence-in-chief?---There was a relocation package available to me if I wanted it.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN710
And you didn't avail yourself of it?---I wasn't able to.
PN711
For personal reasons?---Yes.
PN712
You opted instead for the $9000 cash payment?---That's correct.
PN713
And to continue living in Kelmscott?---That's correct.
PN714
Now, in your evidence-in-chief you said that the trigger was 17 kilometres for that policy to kick in, do you recall that?---Yes, I believe it was that.
PN715
I put it to you that that's just wrong?---As I said, I believe it was that. 17 kilometres is the figure I can recall. If I am incorrect on the exact figure than I stand corrected, but that's to the best of my knowledge. I know that there was a set figure that was given, whether it be 13 kilometres or 17 kilometres, but there was a figure set and that if you were travelling less than those kilometres then you weren't entitled to - or it wasn't made available to you.
PN716
I put it to you that 17 kilometres one way would not have qualified?---Beg your pardon? Can you explain that to me again?
PN717
I put it to you that 17 kilometres additional travel one way would simply not qualify for the relocation package?---Well, I mean that's something that you need to get more information on, but to my understanding there was a set figure and as I said, I believed it was 17 kilometres. I am saying one way, that you needed to be travelling those 17 kilometres in addition to be available for that relocation package.
PN718
But that was in relation to the closure of a mine?---Beg your pardon?
PN719
That was in relation to the closure of a mine?---Yes.
PN720
And some employees took redundancy as a result?---That's correct.
PN721
Some who were eligible under the relocation policy accepted or availed themselves of relocation, is that correct?---Yes, that's correct.
PN722
Others who were eligible under the relocation policy did not avail themselves of relocation but opted for a $9000 cash payment, is that correct?---That's correct.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN723
Like yourself, and a number of others were simply not eligible?---That's correct.
PN724
Because they didn't meet the policy, correct?---Yes, that's correct.
PN725
And there were indeed a number of employees from Jarrahdale who transferred to Huntley and got nothing?---That's correct.
PN726
Because they simply didn't qualify under the company policy?---That's correct.
PN727
Mr Price, you are aware that within the refinery fence at Pinjarra there's a stockpile?---Yes, I am.
PN728
Who has statutory cover for the bauxite area including the stockpile at the refinery?---Well, I would believe from my sittings in these hearings, I believe Mr Horne may be. I can't be absolutely sure on that.
PN729
Mr Horne as manager of mines?---I believe so.
PN730
And if there was an accident at the stockpile who would investigate that, mining or the refinery?---I don't know. You will have to ask the company that.
PN731
If there was an industrial relations issue dealing with mining employees but on the refinery side of the fence to do with the stockpile, who would deal with that, you or your counterparts at the refinery?---Relating to members covered by me?
PN732
Yes?---More than likely I would.
PN733
And is there a mining specific workshop at the refinery stockpile?---Yes, there is.
PN734
And we are talking about on the refinery side of the fence, aren't we?---Yes.
PN735
So the Pinjarra refinery is not everything on that side of the fence because the stockpile is on that side of that fence and that's part of mining, isn't it?---Well, the mining people are responsible for putting it on the ground. Once it goes on the ground, who wants to argue over who owns it I suppose is up to the company. The dirt is on the Pinjarra site and I would say that when Dell Park was running and Huntley were running together they still sent the dirt to the same stockpiles.
PN736
Now, you are aware of the move in Willowdale from Arundel to Orion?---Briefly, yes.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN737
That move also, it was a move of crusher zone?---Move of crushers.
PN738
Yes, you agree?---Yes, the crusher was moved. Yes.
PN739
And all the facilities also moved, didn't they?---I don't know. To my understanding the Willowdale has the mobile workshop administration buildings, security buildings and all associated facilities have not moved.
PN740
But everything else moved?---What do you mean everything else? The crusher?
PN741
Just the crusher?---Well, you tell me. You are saying everything else.
PN742
No, you tell me. I mean - - -
PN743
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, no, that's a fair request for clarification of your question, Mr Heelan.
PN744
MR HEELAN: Well, your Honour, in my submission the witness participates in shop steward meetings. These should all be matters within his knowledge.
PN745
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I think in all fairness if you are associating the similarity of that move and the attendant movement of other infrastructure about the site including administrative and others you should say. You should put that question. Mr Price was responding to an observation made by you that it wasn't just the crusher, it was all other administrative and other associated facilities and he is entitled to understand in order to adequately answer the question what do you mean by other associated facilities, knowing full well that what you are trying to do is establish the similarity between that move and to McCoy.
PN746
MR HEELAN: Yes, your Honour.
PN747
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I assume that is what you meant, Mr Price. I probably went a little further, but it is a fair request for clarification.
PN748
MR HEELAN: Certainly, your Honour.
PN749
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want to revisit the question or move on?
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN750
MR HEELAN: I would like to revisit, your Honour.
PN751
Mr Price, did the workshops move from Arundel to Orion?---Not to my knowledge.
PN752
Did the service bays move from Arundel to Orion?---Not to my knowledge. When you say service bays what are you talking about, fuelling bays or maintenance and servicing bays where they change oils and filters and do maintenance checks?
PN753
Both?---I can't answer that question, because I would assume they have fuelling stations, it would be logical to have the fuel stored close to the trucks. As far as the maintenance service is concerned, as I say, I have never been a Willowdale employee. To my knowledge the Willowdale workshops haven't moved. I think it is a question you had best ask the company.
PN754
Sorry?---I think it is a best a question you ask the company because I don't know that.
PN755
Did the production offices move from Arundel to Orion?---I believe so, as in White Road.
PN756
Was there a claim for payment from the work force?---I don't know. I don't think so, because as I said earlier on, to the best of my knowledge I believe the majority of members ended up with actually a couple of kilometres less to travel, so therefore there was no issue. There may have been a small number of people that may had to travel additional kilometres, but I don't know the specifics.
PN757
But surely that would depend on where the employees live?---Absolutely.
PN758
So anyone living south would have been affected?---That is true. And if you look on the map you will see that the majority of people live around Mandurah I believe, and Mandurah is north of Willowdale.
PN759
But anyone living south would have further to travel?---That is correct.
PN760
And considerably so?---I don't know, it depends where they live. I don't know the distances involved.
PN761
About 25 kilometres each way?---It would be wrong for me to guess, I don't know.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN762
You would have some idea though, wouldn't you?---From the refinery, I believe from the refinery up to that site is somewhere around the 25 to 30 kilometres maybe.
PN763
That is from the refinery?---From the refinery, yes. So I am not real familiar with the access roads to these sites. As I say, I only have general information.
PN764
But would you agree with me around 25 kilometres one way?---I would say that would be a fair guess.
PN765
And that was in your time as a shop steward, wasn't it?---I have been a shop steward for quite a number of years, yes.
PN766
1999-2000?---Yes, and before.
PN767
And those employees received nothing extra, did they?---Not to my knowledge. It doesn't mean they shouldn't have.
PN768
And that was before the current certified agreement too, wasn't it?---I don't know. You would have to check the timelines. I don't know exactly when Arundel moved. I think it is in Mr Horne's submission.
PN769
Now, in your evidence-in-chief you made some point about the distance to travel to work and the distance between mining employees and refinery employees. If two employees lived in the same street in Mandurah, for example, and one worked at Huntley mine site, and you have got crusher zones in Huntley mine site, and the other worked at the Wagerup Refinery. Who would have the least amount of travel to work each day?---I don't know.
PN770
You don't know. Do you know where Wagerup is?---Yes, I do. It is the other side of Waroonah, it is south of Waroonah.
PN771
Yes. It is considerably further away from Mandurah then, the mining operations, isn't it?---Well, it depends on where you're saying Mandurah, because Mandurah bounds quite a large area and it bounds around the Peal Inlet I think they call it, and there are a variety of different ways they probably could travel, so I mean it really would depend on the route they need to take, so I mean I don't know the exact kilometres.
PN772
So are you suggesting that Wagerup would be closer for the - - - ?---No, I didn't suggest that. I said it would depend on where they live in Mandurah and, as I say, it is quite a large area.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN773
Let's say that they lived right in the centre of Mandurah, Mandurah city. Who has got the closest run to work, the employee working at the Huntley mine site operation or the employee working at the Wagerup refinery?---As I say, I don't know the figures so it would be wrong for me to guess.
PN774
You don't know which is closer to Mandurah?---Sorry, Huntley or Wagerup?
PN775
Yes?---You have asked me the question. Can you clarify the question again. Who is closer, Huntley or Wagerup?
PN776
Which is closest to Mandurah, Huntley or Wagerup?---Well, I know Huntley would be something like 17 kilometres or so roughly from the Pinjarra refinery, and I honestly don't now the exact figures from Pinjarra refinery to Mandurah, so for me to give you an answer of how far, which one is closer, it would be incorrect for me to make a guess.
PN777
Let me see if I can make it easier for you. You say Huntley is around 17 kilometres from the Pinjarra refinery?---I believe so, yes, something like - - -
PN778
How far do you think the Wagerup refinery is from the Pinjarra refinery?---Well, once again, if I knew that I could give you a bit of a summary, couldn't I, because I roughly know how far it is from Pinjarra refinery up to Huntley because we have done the exercise of all the kilometres. I mean, if you have got a map and you want to work it out we could soon identify the distance between the Wagerup refinery and the Pinjarra refinery.
PN779
Is your evidence that you don't know?---I don't now exactly.
PN780
You just don't' know?---No. I said I don't know exactly.
PN781
I put it to you that the employee travelling to Wagerup would have a lot further to travel than the employee travelling to Huntley. I put it to you that where an employee lives is the business of the employee. Some employees live quite close to the mining operations, don't they?---Yes, that is correct, yes.
PN782
Because they choose to?---And they live a long way from the centre of Mandurah then.
PN783
And so do you. You live a long way from the centre of Mandurah, don't you?
---Yes. But I have got lots of facilities around myself, banks and shops and all those sorts of things, and schools, so I don't
have to travel to Mandurah to go to do my business, do I?
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN784
But you live at Kelmscott because you choose to?---No. I live in Kelmscott - - -
PN785
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr McLane?
PN786
MR McLANE: I really want to object to this line of questioning on the basis of relevance. I just can't see any.
PN787
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Heelan, are you seeking to establish that the answer as to the distance to travel between Mandurah and Huntley refinery may well be further or lesser distance than Mandurah to, for example, another refinery, and you are using the example of Wagerup, and hence the comparison of one's travel time with a refinery employee really just depends on which refinery you are talking about.
PN788
MR HEELAN: Of course it does, your Honour. I mean, my response to Mr McLane's objection would be, if it is irrelevant in cross-examination then surely it was irrelevant in examination-in-chief. There was some point made about the travelling to work.
PN789
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There was a point made about a refinery employee goes to the refinery, and hopefully it is there the next day as well and it stays there for a while. And the employee working at a crusher zone may find from time to time their trip to work is longer, it might get shorter, but it might be longer.
PN790
MR HEELAN: It might be shorter.
PN791
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, a lot of times it is probably as long or longer because you are not mining to the west generally.
PN792
MR HEELAN: We will come to that.
PN793
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think we should move on. That is the easiest ruling for me to make.
PN794
MR HEELAN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN795
Mr Price, what is the next crusher zone after McCoy?---I can't answer that question.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN796
Does Myara ring a bell?---I have seen a number of names on the company's map, and they put timelines on it, and the mine plant changes over a number of times, and I know the company is doing tests to be able to move into a certain area somewhere because of the rainfall and desalination, or whatever it is. I don't know exactly what the issues are there, so I don't know where the next crusher mine site is. I know the company has predicted they might move to certain areas, but there is no guarantees that is going to be the next area.
PN797
You put Myara on the map that you prepared for the Commission, didn't you?---Yes.
PN798
Because that is the next crusher zone?---Actually I should - - -
PN799
Isn't it?---I should re-answer that. I didn't put Myara on the map for the Commission. In fact, we started to use the map just to explain to people where we are. And when you look on the company's map I think you will find that Myara is the next one in the timeline. I think it is 2014 or something. But I think Mr Horne said himself there is no guarantees where mining is going to move.
PN800
And Myara, is that north, south, east or west of McCoy?---It is north I believe roughly from the map.
PN801
Or north-west?---It depends on where you're standing I suppose.
PN802
It comes back towards the coast, doesn't it?---I don't know.
PN803
No, it doesn't depend on where you're standing at all?---Well, it does. It depends on where you're talking about. If you're talking from Kelmscott then it is south, isn't it?
PN804
In relation to McCoy?---Thank you. In relation from McCoy it is probably a little bit north and then to the west, yes.
PN805
So the company is mining west?---Mm.
PN806
Do you know why that is?---No, I don't.
PN807
And the move from Arundel to Orion, was that east or west or north or south?---From where?
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE XXN MR HEELAN
PN808
Arundel to Orion?---Arundel to Orion?
PN809
Yes?---I believe, and as I say, I have never worked down Willowdale, and I believe it was to the north - and you're probably best to ask someone from Willowdale - but I believe it was to the north somewhere.
PN810
To the north. And, Mr Price, if the next move is to Myara, that will involve considerably less travel for employees, won't it?---It depends on whether the company puts the bitumen road in or not. Because the company could have actually reduced its travel into McCoy for a number of Alcoa employees through Torrens Road, but they chose not to. They extended the Huntley Road. So it really depends on the access that the company chooses to put into the site.
PN811
Is that just a matter for the company, or do you think that the Department of Environment and Conservation and Land Management might have some input as well?---Well, I am sure they would have a lot of input into all the areas that the company clears.
PN812
On the assumption that Myara is not a bubble like White Road, so on the assumption there is a bitumen road built to Myara, the next crusher zone, would it be a shorter distance or longer distance for the employees?---It depends where they live.
PN813
For you?---For me it would be shorter.
PN814
By how much?---Once again, you would have to get a map out and work it out.
PN815
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I wish to move on from this topic, Mr Heelan.
PN816
MR HEELAN: Yes, your Honour. Thank you, your Honour, we have nothing more.
PN817
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any re-examination, Mr McLane?
MR McLANE: Very briefly, ma'am.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCLANE [3.06PM]
PN819
MR McLANE: Mr Price, you have evidence that the first time you had seen the words, crusher zone, were in Mr Horne's affidavit. You were challenged by my friend as to that, and were taken to Mr Horne's letter of 15 October. Had you, before this issue arose, ever heard the words crusher zone at Alcoa Huntley's operations?---No, not to my knowledge. The terminology we always use is mine site or area. Certainly the words zones and regions, and in Mr Horne's correspondence, I mean, obviously I didn't even see the significance of the words. I was more worried about the actual issue. The terminology around it was - I didn't see that.
PN820
Okay, thank you. How many years has the company paid people to travel from Huntley to White Road in company time?---Once again, as I say, I have only been on the site since early 2000 or '99-2000. I believe that has been for at last 10 to 12 years.
**** SIMON FREDERICK PRICE RXN MR MCLANE
PN821
Mr Heelan took you at length to the issue of the company's position in relation to what he said was holding the line or a consistent line of not prepared to pay any money for travel. Do you recall that?---Yes, I do.
PN822
Okay. My question to you is, has the company been saying consistently that it will not pay anything for travel whilst at the same time discussing a special mining allowance with the union?---No. It is really hard to define when they were wanting to talk to us about the mining allowance special, and when they were saying we won't pay you any money for travel.
PN823
Put it this way, were they doing both?---Well, probably, yes.
PN824
I have no further questions, ma'am.
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Now, Mr Price, you are released from your oath and free to leave the courtroom if you wish or remain within the body of it. Will you ensure that you return to me and other persons the documents.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.09PM]
PN826
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr McLane?
PN827
MR McLANE: Thank you, ma'am. I would seek to call Mr Bill McDade.
PN828
MR HEELAN: Your Honour, perhaps before Mr McDade is called could I ask whether the Commission's intention would be to mark the employment contract?
PN829
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is your intention, Mr Heelan? Do you require to have it marked?
PN830
MR HEELAN: I would like to have it identified in some way if I may please, your Honour.
PN831
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, I think it was acknowledged by Mr Price as being a document that he identified. I don't know if he was asked if it was his signature or not, but I think he identified the document. This is the employment contract, Mr McLane.
PN832
MR McLANE: No, ma'am, I don't have any difficulties with that. It was just the front page of the document here that Mr - - -
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, I will come to that in a second.
EXHIBIT #ALCOA3 EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT
PN834
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, that is the additional two pages are you talking about?
PN835
MR McLANE: I am talking about this one, ma'am, the page in front of exhibit AWU4.
PN836
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, I don't think there was an application made in relation to it.
PN837
MR McLANE: There wasn't.
PN838
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Certainly I do take the view that the whole of the document is always to be preferred from an extract, particularly if it is said that the extract doesn't tell the whole story, and I think that is what was behind the cross-examination.
PN839
MR McLANE: If the Commission pleases.
PN840
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That should therefore be marked as your document, Mr Heelan. On other occasions I might have put it onto your document, Mr McLane. Well, it is up to you. I can now add it to your document so your document is - but then it becomes obviously your exhibit.
PN841
MR McLANE: I don't mind, ma'am.
PN842
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is all right, can I do that? That is neat.
PN843
MR HEELAN: I simply apologise that I only have the one copy, your Honour.
PN844
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, you take that back. Let me identify it for transcript. What is this attached to, exhibit?
PN845
MR HEELAN: AWU5 or 4.
PN846
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I should indicate that exhibit AWU4 previously tendered will now have added to it two additional pages. I think I can identify them at the bottom right hand corner as being described as page one of two and page two of two, both relating to McCoy emergency evacuation, I assume the initials H-u-n standing for Huntley. Mr McLane?
MR McLANE: Thank you, ma'am. Maybe if I could have Mr McDade.
<WILLIAM MCDADE, SWORN [3.13PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCLANE [3.12PM]
PN848
MR McLANE: Mr McDade, would you please just state your full name and address and your position at Alcoa?---My full name is William McDade, I live at (address supplied) and currently I am a mine operator at the Huntley site.
PN849
Okay. Did you hold a position within the AWU on site hierarchy?---I was. Up until October last year I was the AWU mining employee's liaison officer for Alcoa Western Australia, and I am currently the West Australian Mining Division State President for the Australian Workers Union.
PN850
And was the position that you held a position that is now held by Mr Price?
---Fairly similar. In actual fact the liaison officer went for the two sites where Simon at the moment is just the site convenor.
PN851
Thank you, Mr McDade. At which site do you work?---Huntley.
PN852
And how long have you worked at Huntley?---I was first employed in 1988, basically all around North Road, Huntley, White Road, and I spent a little bit of time down at the Willowdale mine site, but it was only about three months in the mid 90s, and that is about it.
PN853
All right. So apart from that time how long were you at Willowdale?---Maximum three months I think, it could have been slightly less.
PN854
So apart from that time how long is it that you have been at Huntley?---Since 19 September 1988.
PN855
Thank you.. And when you were at Willowdale were special travelling arrangements made for you?---The company supplied us a car. There was a group of us, and the first group that I was with I was with one fitter and two other mine workers, and the company supplied us a car. And then while I was still there I think it was only the fitter and myself that were using the company car.
PN856
In your capacity as - is it right if I refer to it as - what title should I use for the times that you were involved in negotiations with Huntley in relation to the lead up to this dispute?---Well, my official title was a Liaison Officer.
PN857
Okay. As a liaison officer were you involved in the negotiations for the current EBA?---The 2003 agreement, yes, I was.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN858
And were you involved in negotiations with the company about the move that is the subject of this dispute?---The McCoy site move?
PN859
Yes?---Yes, a number of years.
PN860
And have you seen the affidavit of Mr Horne for these proceedings?---I have read Mr Horne's affidavit, yes.
PN861
And did you observe the terminology used by Mr Horne in relation to - - -
PN862
MR HEELAN: Your Honour?
PN863
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr Heelan?
PN864
MR HEELAN: I just question the relevance of this line of questioning for the reason, your Honour, that Mr McDade has provided what has been said to be a witness statement, but it is document A attached to exhibit AWU2. Also the questions he has just been asked in relation to Mr Horne's affidavit, Mr McDade certainly had access to Mr Horne's affidavit prior to producing his witness statement. May it please the Commission.
PN865
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I will come back to the second part of the objection, but I suppose it is a convenient time, is it, to - you propose to put this statement to Mr McDade?
PN866
MR McLANE: I do, ma'am.
PN867
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So can I take it that that has been done and can I take it that it is acknowledged by Mr McDade as his signature and dated 15 December, so that comprises his statement?
PN868
MR McLANE: I will just put that to him now, ma'am, if that help.
PN869
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let's just dispense with strict formality, yes. All right, thanks.
PN870
MR McLANE: Could you identify that document please Mr McDade?---Yes, this is what I did write.
PN871
Is that your witness statement?---That is my witness statement.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN872
And you stand by it?---I stand by it.
PN873
And it is your signature?---My signature. And I did that statement before I read Mr Horne's affidavit. I had no copy of it, I am sorry.
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, that is all right.
EXHIBIT #AWU6 STATEMENT OF WILLIAM MCDADE
PN875
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, the next issue related to the question as to whether Mr McDade had read Mr Horne's statement, and it was then addressing - he used a certain terminology that he uses in that statement, and then that gave rise to your objection. I suppose there is two parts of it now. The first is what you now know, that Mr McDade had not read it at the time he swore his statement of 15 December. I don't know whether that results in you withdrawing the objection, but in any event it seems one of the matters that will be in issue and, in particular, from the union's point of view, is the question of whether the situation before me is a move to a new geographical area of a crusher variously called a facility, a zone, a crusher, a crusher site, and the inferences to be drawn from all of that, or whether it is now and always has been a crusher situated in a geographical site all encompassed within the parameters of the Huntley mine site. Where have I got to? I think I was about to say if it is about that I would allow the question.
PN876
MR HEELAN: My point simply, your Honour, is that the union had all of the company's - - -
PN877
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I understand that. And you know what Mr McDade says about that.
PN878
Do you remember the question, Mr McDade, or would you like it asked of you again?---I would like it asked again please.
PN879
Yes, Mr McLane?
PN880
MR McLANE: Thank you, ma'am.
PN881
Mr McDade, have you read the statement of Mr Horne?---I have read Mr Horne's statement, yes.
PN882
Was there anything in there about the language in relation to the crusher that struck you?---There is a number of things in Mr Horne's statement which are strange to me.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN883
Well, let's just stick with one for now?---One was the word zone. That is the first time I have heard any reference to the McCoy zone and in any meetings or any correspondence that I have had since 1999.
PN884
Now, I just want to take you to annexure 12 of ALCOA2, which is Mr Horne's statement. And if I could have leave, ma'am, I am happy to hand mine to the witness.
PN885
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very good.
PN886
MR McLANE: And if I could just take you to the first sentence, Mr McDade, do you see the words crusher zone there?---Yes, I do.
PN887
Okay. And if I take you down to where it says number one?---Number one.
PN888
And if you could just read the first part of that for us please?---
PN889
The relocation of your work area from the existing White Road crusher zone to the McCoy crusher zone is a relocation within the Huntley site operation, and the company is entitled under relevant provisions of the applicable EBAs to direct employees to work in any area of the site operation as the company may from time to time reasonably require clause 7(b) of the relevant AWU, AMWU and CEPU agreements.
PN890
Thank you for that. Did you see that letter prior to Mr Horne's statement or after?---I have received this letter, I knew it was coming and I knew what the content was. Yes, I knew of the letter.
PN891
Now, if we just go to the paragraph marked one, where Mr Horne asserts that the company has a right to move people within the crusher zone, is that something you would take issue with?---Yes, I would take issue with that.
PN892
Why do you take issue with it?---It has never been enforced before to my knowledge. The transfer of people has always been basically voluntary and agreements have been set. It has never been enforced on us.
PN893
Okay. Now, where occurs the language crusher zone, do you agree that that is an appropriate description, or is there a better description?---No. Crusher zone, it is not common. We have always referred to it as a site, crusher site, maybe crusher area, but site and area would be the two main ones that would be used.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN894
So this is the first time you have heard the word crusher zones?---It is the first reference to the word zone.
PN895
Now, if I was to turn up at Huntley and ask you where the McCoy crusher zone is, what would you say to me, before, you know, before
these affidavits and
letters?---Well, I think we would have corrected you and said the crusher site or the McCoy site, yes, not the zone.
PN896
Thank you, Mr McDade. When you say the McCoy site what type of site is it?
---It is a mine site.
PN897
And what type of site is Huntley?---It is a mine site.
PN898
Are they one and the same?---They're in the same business but certainly different areas.
PN899
Right. And are they the same sites or different sites?---As far as I am concerned they're different sites.
PN900
Okay. Just why do you say they're different sites, Mr McDade?---We have made reference over a number of years in regards to the Huntley site, the White Road site, Dell Park site, the McCoy site, Willowdale site, Orion site, it has always been sites, it hasn't been zones. And I must admit in some occasions the company will try and say that it is the mining group to incorporate all the sites, but then on other areas they will turn around and, like, what they call site specific, and it could be either Huntley site specific, Orion site specific or whatever.
PN901
Thank you, Mr McDade. ma'am, I would seek to tender a further document through this witness, and there is one that was sent to you. I will just take you to the first one, Mr McDade, and just ask you just briefly what the relevance of that document is?---It is a copy of the shop stewards minutes dated 30 January 2002. It is just a report of what went on at the shop stewards meeting which we put on noticeboards and feed back to our crews.
PN902
Thank you. And if I could just take you to the last paragraph in the document, it mentions canteen requirements for McCoy?---I have got:
PN903
B. McDade has been invited to discuss canteen requirements for McCoy with T. Paschier, which is Tony Paschier - - -
PN904
I think I spelled his name wrong:
PN905
- - - and AWU members' concerns about travel to the new site at McCoy have been raised with management for discussions to commence.
PN906
And the date that I printed these or wrote these up was 4 February 2002.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN907
Okay. And when you say concerns about travel, what travel is that?---Basically from Huntley to the new McCoy site.
PN908
Now, is that the travel that is the subject of this dispute?---Yes.
PN909
Do you have a recollection, Mr McDade, of when you first raised with the company the travel issue for McCoy?---I believe it was in and around June 1999 is when it first might have been raised, yes.
PN910
Why do you say that?---Last night I found a document. I am a bit of a hoarder and I keep a lot of stuff. I found a document which was submitted to the Industrial Relations Commission in regards to bargaining period, and the date stamped from the Commission was 1 September 1999, and in there is - it is a log of claims. At the time we were looking at going into a new EBA and we wanted to start negotiations with the company, and there is a list of 20-30 items there, and one of the items was travel allowances, and that was specifically in regards to McCoy.
PN911
Okay, thank you. Now, during the EBA negotiations did you raise this with the company, the travel?---I raised it on a number of occasions with other sites and with the company representatives there.
PN912
All right. Which company representatives would they be?---Kim Horne was certainly at some of them, not all of them, K. Butler would have been there, there were some managers from the refineries at the meetings, Bill Knight would have been one of them, yes, and a few others, a few other managers.
PN913
All right. Would you have raised these on only one occasion or more than one occasion?---More than one occasion. I am pretty protective for the mining group and was always looking to look after the mining group, so I would have raised the issues a number of times. There would have been a number of things I wanted in the EBA.
PN914
Okay. And what responses were you given when you raised it?---Basically we had enough time to sort something out for the McCoy. Because it was basically site specific, that it wasn't relevant for the refineries to have it in with the agreement so it was, yes, kind of pushed off to the side to say it is site specific because I had a number of other what I still call site specific issues that we were trying to resolve through the EBA.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN915
Okay. So in whose view was it site specific, yours or the company's?---I have to be fair and say possibly a bit of both.
PN916
Okay, thank you. Now, if I can just take you to the next document in the bundle, which was marked B3, and can you just briefly tell us what that is?---It is a request for an information meeting. And generally what happens is before I send the official request I usually have a chat with the managers and say, you know, I want to have a meeting, and they say, well, we want to know what your agenda is, timeframe, and always a guarantee to return to work. So that is why the agendas at the McCoy transfer, AWU career paths and the AMWU agreement is - - -
PN917
Sorry, the date on that?---The date on that one was 11 February 2003 when I sent that.
PN918
And would have you had that meeting?---Yes. Generally if I call a meeting I don't change the dates if I have made a formal request. I have stuck with that for the six years I was in there as a convenor.
PN919
Okay. Now, if I can just take you across to the next one, which was identified as B4, just to identify what that is for us?---It is a document, it is the WA Operations AWU Annualised Pay Package 2003 presentation slides. This document was put together after we had agreed on our 2003 EBA, and it was a presentation package that was to be done to all crews to understand what we had done.
PN920
So was it a joint effort?---Yes, from memory this was a joint effort. We all added our bits and pieces in it, yes.
PN921
Okay, thank you. And the next one?---Key understandings. This is part of that presentation slides.
PN922
Okay. And the relevant?---About the strong consultative process, the process is highly consultative, there is no requirement for consensus to be reached in the process, look after the people.
PN923
Do you recall some of the issues you might have discussed there?---The words from memory from when I was talking about it, is that we used the words we wanted more transparent, we wanted a bit more dialogue, a bit more - - -
PN924
But the specific issues, do you recall or not? If not, that is fine?---No, not specific issues of these. No, I can't recall specific issues.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN925
All right. If we just go across to the next one. Is that part of the same?---That is part of the same document. There was quite a few slides in there, there was quite a few.
PN926
Was this presentation the whole of the operations, or was it site specific?---I believe this presentation was to be done on all sites excluding Pinjarra. Pinjarra do not have an agreement.
PN927
Okay, thank you. Now, if we could go to the next one, B7, the stewards meeting?---The shop stewards meeting of - the meeting was dated 19 March 2003.
PN928
And what is the significance of this document, Mr McDade?---On the page two there I have got road proposals for McCoy, a couple of question marks, need more details from management, no consultation as yet. And I would have written these minutes on 30 March 2003.
PN929
If you can just duck across now to the next one, it is two pages?---AWU membership proposal dated 3 November 2003:
PN930
Proposal. The establishment and introduction of a mining travel allowance for the mining group to cover the additional travelling expenses incurred working on a mobile mine site as opposed to the refinery workers.
PN931
Yes, this is just, it's in discussions with Kim and some other union officials in regards to, yes, we were putting some information forward to, it was actually Kim, Kim Horne, some relevance in regards to how we would calculate costs using the RAC or the Australian Taxation Office, in regards to what the costs was for running a car.
PN932
And on what basis were you putting those things forward?---To cover the additional costs for the members going out to McCoy.
PN933
Okay. And what was your objective in that?---There was no sort of, no disadvantage to the guys because currently all those costs were borne by the company.
PN934
All right. Are you aware that it has been dressed up as a claim?---At the time, no, it wasn't a claim. It was a proposal to get dialogue going for some sort of a solution.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN935
Now, are you familiar with Mr Horne's affidavit where he talks about a claim being made?---In regards to the $50 claim?
PN936
Yes?---I am aware of that. I could get myself into a bit of trouble there, I think there is a bit of licence in there.
PN937
Sorry, just explain that?---The $50 claim, that was borne out of a mass meeting which we had - I would have to look at my notes to see what date it was.
PN938
No, that is fine?---But we had a mass meeting, whereas myself and Barry Coates, who is the site president, we put some options up to the guys basically saying, look, you know, we have got to be professional, we have got to sort of like have a decent sort of claim to present to the company, you know, we just can't go in with - I used the word ambient, but it is ambit claim. You just can't go in and say we want 50 bucks. But the reasoning behind that from the members, they were saying, is that, Billy, we only want $15, why should we ask for $15, why don't we ask for 30 or 40, and we know the company is always going to come back.
PN939
Directly after the meeting we had that - when we went and seen Mr Horne, it was Barry and myself, we told them, you know, the claim, or the thing about the bus travel from North Dandalup to Pinjarra was basically rejected, and they came back with this $50 claim. And we explained to Kim, saying that the reason behind it is that Barry and I couldn't convince our members that we should have something along the lines of references from the Australian Taxation Office, RAC, you know, documents or proof in regards to it. It was basically asking for $50, but they know they're not going to get it.
PN940
Okay. So you have made it clear, do I understand you to be saying, you made it clear that it wasn't ambit?---Yes, I believe so.
PN941
Okay. Now, you said there was some licence used. Where was the licence used and by whom?---There is a number of things within Mr Horne's statement that I don't fully agree with.
PN942
Okay. So is that what you refer to when - - - ?---Yes, as licence as to the whole statement.
PN943
All right. Now, what sort of a relationship have you enjoyed during your time as a convenor with Alcoa and with Mr Horne?---Pretty good. Kim actually employed me, he did my interview. In the early days I have got to admit I was a bit hairy, but I wasn't involved in the union, I wasn't a shop steward or anything, but over the years I believe we developed a good relationship on a personal and professional level. I know Kim has helped me out on some advice on some personal stuff, and I have actually taken some advice off him in industrial stuff too, because I would go in and say, you know, I am stuck with this, you know. It was a fairly good working relationship. He is a good bloke as far as I am concerned.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN944
All right. And how did you feel when you read the statement?---A little bit disappointed I have got to admit. I thought there was some - - -
PN945
Why was that?---There was some selective sort of stuff in there, other stuff taken out of context I believe, yes.
PN946
Okay. Now, I will just take you across the page if you would?---To b10, is it?
PN947
It is B11?---B11, establishment of the mining group EBA.
PN948
What is that about, and I just draw your attention to the last highlighted point in the document, which says travel allowance issue, resolution?---This was put forward to the mining group, which was Willowdale Huntley. Basically for us to withdraw from our agreement and enter into a mining group agreement, and part of that, there was a heap of stuff in there I have used - - -
PN949
Withdraw from what agreement?---Withdraw from our current agreement which was signed in July that year, 3 July I believe it was that we actually signed it.
PN950
The agreement?---The 2003 agreement. And this meeting was set up in October.
PN951
Was this the agreement that this dispute centres around?---Correct. That is our current agreement. This was in and around October of 2003, where we had an offsite meeting with all unions and employees. Basically the view of the management at the time is they weren't getting enough out of the new agreement, and I actually agree with them on this, is that the mining group didn't get much out of our new agreement at the time. We did get a couple of bits and pieces in there, but I do agree with Kim, I think the mining group was actually left out a bit. This was basically a 43 hour week roster which the company wanted introduced into the mining group, but at the time I said we couldn't entertain it because we had an agreement, I would have to take it to the other sites. And part of it was that if we had taken this up, the new EBA, he would be - the resolution of the 100 and 106 per cent, which is another issue that I have been going on for about six years.
PN952
That is referred to at the first dot point in that final - - - ?---On the final, resolution of 100 to 106 per cent, which is a nightmare for everyone I have got to admit. The reference there to the 43 hour week. There was a performance pay bonus scheme that was being developed at the time by the company with the unions and some outside people.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN953
Just let me shortcut you. It didn't go anywhere?---Absolutely not.
PN954
Okay. So if we could just go to the - - - ?---But at the time they said that we would sort out the travel issue there as well.
PN955
Would you just go to the next one, and that is an email?---This is an email dated 21 October from my home computer dated 11.29 pm at night, and there is a lot of history behind this. I have written to Kim:
PN956
The AWU members I represent wish to raise a dispute under our current agreement with regards to the relocation of the McCoy mine site. Regards, Bill McDade.
PN957
That was sent from my home one to Kim Horne and the managers, and Tim Daley, our state secretary.
PN958
Why did you do that?---Basically we weren't getting anywhere with trying to sort out what we were going to do about the McCoy travel. As I said earlier, Kim and I, we discussed a fair bit of stuff, and prior to me - a couple of weeks prior to this, it might have even been three weeks, prior to me putting this notice out I spoke with Kim about how we are going to resolve the issue. This is a one on one conversation that Kim and I had, and Kim explained to me saying that, Bill, under our current agreement I can't talk to you in regards to the travel issue because of - and Kim did say the no extra claims clause. But he said - - -
PN959
Okay, let me just stop you there?---Yes.
PN960
Are you aware of discussions taking place in relation to the special mining allowance?---In what sort of reference?
PN961
Mining special allowance as part of the resolution of this dispute?---I am not sure where you're going with that.
PN962
Are you aware of any discussions with the company about the mining special allowance?---There was reference to, rather than calling it a travel allowance, call it a mine, yes. The reason behind that is that it wouldn't flow on to any other site, it is mine specific, and is more the words that I would be thinking of, because special allowance is an old term from an old award.
PN963
Okay. So you ended up placing this in dispute?---Yes, I put this in dispute on 21 October.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN964
And what then?---Kim replied to me saying that he would commence to follow the disputes procedure as agreed:
PN965
Given we have a number of weeks before any actual changes occur I am hopeful that this can be resolved without great fuss. I am happy to assist you to point out the limitations that they have to abide under our in term agreement if any of your people wish to go outside of them. Yours, Kim.
PN966
That was Kim's response on 22 October, and on 7 January this year I sent a copy of it to Simon because Simon was getting all this information together for yourself and the Commission. But quite clearly Kim had stated prior to me putting this in dispute that he couldn't talk to me about the travel allowance because of our current agreement, but if I put it in the dispute we could open dialogue. I put it into dispute. No dialogue with myself has been entered into in regards to the travel. In actual fact I believe the company put the issue into dispute after I put it in dispute, and that is why we are here today.
PN967
Okay. Now, if we could just go across to the next one?---My original email is dated 20 February 2004. I have got to all - sorry.
PN968
Sorry, Mr McDade?---Yes:
PN969
Attached is a slide presentation regarding bus travel to McCoy. I did help the unions develop this. Our members at the mass meeting on 22 January rejected this option, however, because of a perceived savings I feel obliged to pass this on. I still have no alternatives for the travel to McCoy. I am waiting for instructions from the membership as to what I am to proceed with to address this issue with the Alcoa management.
PN970
And there is an icon there saying, which is the document, which was a Powerpoint presentation, and it explained the actual cost savings to the workers if they picked up the option that Mr Horne put forward of travelling in our own time from North Dandalup and Pinjarra.
PN971
Okay. So you presented that?---I presented it to Kim, and Kim quite rightly told me that why did I have marijuana leaves on the side of the document? I was a coloured one and it was just a green thing that I picked out of the Alcoa computer system as a colour background. It never went any further than that, it was not presented to the work group.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN972
Okay. If I could just take you to the next one, 19 January, under your name?---It was a notice that was placed in and around the site, a notice:
PN973
There will be a mass information meeting on Thursday, 22 January, starting at 7 am in the contractors' car park.
PN974
Now, to discuss a number of issues?---Yes. Well, I have got the agenda items here. The 12 hour versus the 12.52 hour issue currently in dispute, information on canteen facilities at McCoy, acceptance or rejection of the company's offer of the bus from Pinjarra or North Dandalup to travel to McCoy.
PN975
And what subsequently happened with that?---The membership actually rejected that, and that is where they came up with that claim of the $50.
PN976
That you have already - - - ?---That I explained earlier, yes.
PN977
Okay. Now, I understand that you have extracts that were sent through in a bundle, and the company also has extracts from the Alcoa magazine Miners Right.
PN978
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know. Where would I find them?
PN979
MR McLANE: It would be a Christmas message is one. I apologise for not having copies of these. I can undertake to provide them tomorrow.
PN980
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that is fine. But just identify them again, would you.
PN981
MR McLANE: Yes, ma'am, I will. One is headed End of Year Christmas Message from page three, and it appears in the company magazine Miners Right of December 2000, and the second one is Miners Right December 2002, headed The Real McCoy Update. I just wanted to show these to the witness and draw the Commission's attention to them.
PN982
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you know these documents, Mr Heelan?
PN983
MR HEELAN: No, your Honour.
PN984
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Show him them, would you.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN985
MR McLANE: Certainly, ma'am.
PN986
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And whilst you're doing that do you want me to mark this bundle that you have just - - -
MR McLANE: Yes, ma'am, if we could do that.
EXHIBIT #AWU7 EXTRACTS FROM MINERS RIGHT
PN988
MR McLANE: I apologise, ma'am, I have misled everybody. My understanding is that one of those documents was emailed through, not both of them.
PN989
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I remember something that met the description of the first document, but not the second.
PN990
MR McLANE: I am not sure which one - - -
PN991
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It was the most recent one I think.
PN992
MR HEELAN: Certainly I received was an internet link which had like a reference to half a paragraph or something. It was nothing like the documents I have just been shown.
PN993
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, maybe I too am forgetting what - but in any event, I mean this is not yet in evidence before me so if we identify what you now wish to put in, Mr Heelan, and you can let me know if you have any difficulties with it being tendered now.
PN994
MR HEELAN: No, your Honour. They are both company publications.
PN995
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.
PN996
MR McLANE: If you could just go to the 2000 one first please, Mr McDade?
---It is part of the end of year Christmas message which is written by Kim, Kim Horne, and the section which I actually scanned
and sent, which obviously people didn't get, was:
PN997
Huntley has started seriously considering its next stage, and its life at the McCoy site is becoming a reality with activities planned already under way.
PN998
That was in an address from Kim.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN999
Okay. And if you just look you will find a cross against one of the paragraphs?
---That is what I just read.
PN1000
Is it? Thank you?---That is what I just read, yes. Stating the life of the McCoy site is becoming a reality.
PN1001
Okay. Does anything about the language of the McCoy site - - - ?---Common language, and that is the type of language we have used until fairly recently, and when I say recently I am only talking about the last three days that we have started using the word zone.
PN1002
Okay, thank you. And the other one? Could I just ask that you pass that to the Senior Deputy President?---The next one is another Miners Right, it is a section here from the Real McCoy Update on page nine, and it has got:
PN1003
Work teams are being put together to start planning for the crusher move, including the relocation of our work force to McCoy.
PN1004
Yes. To my knowledge no work team was set up in regards with the union for the relocation of the work force, which - - -
PN1005
Is that unusual?---Given that this is dated 2002, and as far as I am concerned, quite clearly the two and a half years that I had had dialogue with anyone who wanted to listen to me about McCoy, I would be surprised that they would have set up the team without us.
PN1006
Okay, thank you.
PN1007
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do I need to mark these? I think the evidence you wish - - -
PN1008
MR McLANE: No, ma'am.
PN1009
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If you wish to press it.
PN1010
MR McLANE: No.
PN1011
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good, thanks.
PN1012
MR McLANE: I think it is straight forward in what I am seeking you to draw from it.
PN1013
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think the point is now recorded in transcript, yes.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN1014
MR McLANE: During your time as the convenor - sorry, let me come at that again, just forget everything I have said. Are you familiar with clause 7(b) of the current EBA?---Yes, I am, clause 7(b) of the current EBA, yes.
PN1015
Can you just briefly give us a history of that clause?---The history of it in the negotiations that I had in regards to the annual agreement. There was a change from the previous wording from our '94 agreement, that is my only recollection of it being discussed before about 7(b). There have been no other discussions. And I believe that those amended word changes in regards to, I think the words were changed from an attached appendix to - I am using my memory here - from the '94 agreement attached appendix was changed to current job description, and I believe that was a push by Norm Dickson, the state president, at the time, and the Wagerup convenor in regards to how they were going with their job descriptions and what was happening within the refineries. That is my only recollection of that ever being raised before.
PN1016
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: May I just interpose a request here. You now remind me, I would wish to give consideration to the 1994 agreement. I am assuming that is the predecessor. It is the agreement that is the fall back agreement referred to in this EBA, so I assume there wasn't one since then. But before I give any consideration to it, and I don't know whether it will end up being relevant to my construction of the words used in this EBA, but on a couple of occasions I have wondered whether the words that have been picked up are the '94 words, or whether it is a bit of a cocktail given that it is not only this work force but several others have been merged in this way. I don't know that it is necessary?---My recollection was that it was just to make it a bit more simpler for people to understand.
PN1017
I understand your answer to that question, but it just reminded me that I myself was going to look at that agreement, and in all fairness if I thought there was anything relevant to it I am obliged to let the advocates know what might be relevant. So I am just tipping both of you off. Maybe if we have all got a copy in court tomorrow?---I have got a very dog-eared copy there that you can have if you want it.
PN1018
My associate might be able to pick it up tonight from our records. Just in case we have got a problem doing so, if you could ensure that there is an additional copy for me in court tomorrow. I am sorry to interrupt. Yes, continue.
PN1019
MR McLANE: No, that is fine, ma'am, we shall do.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN1020
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will sit till, unless there is another appropriate time, but we will sit to 4.25. I have a 4.30 matter?---Just in reference to that too, there was a slight word change in exactly the same agreement from the '93 to the 94.
PN1021
And there was a '93 one as well, was there?---Yes.
PN1022
And the sentence, there was actually a slight change to that specific sentence again from the '93 to the '94, then the '94 to the 2003.
PN1023
MR HEELAN: Your Honour, I have a spare copy of it here.
PN1024
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I might then take that with me when we adjourn this afternoon. It is a Commission document so it doesn't need to be marked as an exhibit. Yes?
PN1025
MR McLANE: Mr McDade, have you ever been involved in a dispute with a company over clause 7(b)?---Never.
PN1026
Are you familiar with the SELL principle?---Safe, efficient, legal and logical. It is an Alcoa principle. In general terms the AWU has stated in regards to this particular thing, we will never do anything unsafe so we agree on the safe, efficient, yes, we will be efficient as best we can. Legal, we have always said that is open for a minefield because one - bush lawyers, which I suppose people turn into, myself at some stage. And logical, well, yes, what one person sees as logic is another. So I have got to really say that I have never really agreed with the SELL principle, but the first two parts of it, we would never do anything unsafe or illegal.
PN1027
How does clause 7(b) relate to the SELL principle?---Clause 7(b). The problem I had with that is I have never had a dispute with the clause 7(b), so I can't really say how it would relate to the SELL principle.
PN1028
How does clause 7(b) relate to the SELL principle?---Clause 7(b), the problem I have with that is that I've never had a dispute with clause 7(b), so I can't really say how it would relate to the SELL principle.
PN1029
Does clause 7(b) interact with the breakdown of demarcations that occurred may early to nineties?---I can't comment on the early nineties, because at that stage, I would have just been a worker at the time, I wouldn't have even been a shop steward, but in regard to any demarcation issues, well I was sitting in the chair for a period of nearly six years. We never got past basically the middle management level in regard to demarcation, to my knowledge the AWU, while I was sitting in the chair, has not raised a dispute in regard to demarcation, it got to that sort of level.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN1030
..... got the demarcations between the AWU or demarcations between other unions, at the AWU?---Both I think, in actual fact, even demarcations between the staff ranks and the workers.
PN1031
So you were able to overcome them?---Yes.
PN1032
Okay, so your evidence is that clause 7(b) was never an issue?---Not while I was in the role.
PN1033
Okay. What do you say about the construction placed on it by Mr Horne and the company in these proceedings?---I can't answer that one, to be honest, because I really don't know. Just basically looking at it myself for the last week or so is that it's never been an issue.
PN1034
What's your job currently?---I'm a mine operator. I operate heavy equipment.
PN1035
Just briefly, what type of equipment?---We've got the new 730E haul back trucks.
PN1036
How many tonnes are they?---200 tonne, or 205, to be precise, but we call them 200 tonne dump trucks, mobile crushers, which is crusher 260 and 160, I operate both of those as required and some ancillary equipment that I'm currently licensed to operate on site under the ..... guidelines which his still heavy equipment, but not all right at the moment.
PN1037
All right. Do you work shift work?---I work shift work, yes.
PN1038
And how many hours on shift do you work?---I'm currently on what they call a production roster, 12.52 is the actual time I work, but there's a bit of time in there for breaks and changeover.
PN1039
Now where do you live?---Just south of Mandurah, it's officially called Erskine, more commonly called near Halls Head.
PN1040
All right, so how far south of Mandurah?---Six kilometres from the shopping centre there, or 6 kilometres from the police station.
PN1041
All right. And how long does it take you to drive to work at Huntley?---On an average, about 40 minutes.
PN1042
That's one way is it?---That's one way, yes.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN1043
What time, if you were on the day shift, what time do you leave home and what time do you arrive home ?---I generally leave home, no later than five to six in the morning and I'm generally home somewhere between five to eight and 8 pm at night.
PN1044
What about when you're on nightshift?---Pretty close to the same, usually about six, because I usually have to stop and get a paper.
PN1045
Is it right to say that you work just short of a 14 hour day if we take travelling?
---Pretty close, it would have to be pretty close.
PN1046
Do you find that you get tired?---My job description has changed and I'm now trying to get back into the shift roster of two days, two nights, I am having a bit of trouble with some of them, yes.
PN1047
Are those distances and those times, are they something that's rare or is it pretty much the average?---I would say it would be fairly common, but obviously there are numerous people who live in, say, Dwellingup, which is a lot closer, they would be cut by at least half, if not more and then there's other people which I've had concerns with, but it's hard to raise because I'm heavily involved with the AWU, obviously they are the branch office and I sit on the state ALP for the AWU, and we have the ordinary hours of work, which you have concerns about. I know of cases, we've got one worker, he lives in York, he does come down on his on days and he is due in for the next day, he was a casual, he would stay in a friend's place in Dwellingup, but it was quite common for him to finish night shift and then drive back to York.
PN1048
What sort of a trip are we talking about?---How far is York?
PN1049
How many hours?---I would have to say three.
PN1050
Okay?---If not more. I've actually even raised these concerns about people staying at work and the travelling longer terms including the staff. I've brought it to the attention of the company that staff are staying there for in excess of 14 hours on site and I do admit that when it was brought to the attention, it was addressed, I will give them that, it was addressed, I'll be fair on that.
PN1051
All right. I just want to finish up, ask you about the relationship, the state of the relationship on the ground now between the members and the company?---Given I believe we've had a fairly good working relationship up until - and I've used the terms before, I believe the rot set in about October 2003, is when the 42 hour week discussion started, I believe the rot started then. What I call the rot is the change of the management, how can you put it down to - the way they treat the workers, the way they negotiate, I've had numerous conversations or discussions in regard to our agreement, the agreement I believe was put together by the workers and the managers at the time, legal people have put their eyes over it and taken legal opinions and it was never the intent of the agreement which is disappointing.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN1052
Am I correct in saying that it was put together by lay people?---Definitely was, it was definitely put together by lay people. It was put together by managers at the time, supervisors at the time, obviously senior union people with the input of the workforce and at one stage we had such a really good relationship that there was a statement put out by the company saying that workers were the lynch pin of the organisation and I believe that was less than 12 months ago. Now in the last three months, the workers I represent, which found is offensive have been called malingerers and that went over like a lead balloon. I don't believe any of the workers up there are malingerers, but that was a comment that I was told and just fairly recently, I believe that some of our representatives have been called industrial thugs. I find that offensive, given the amount of work that I put in for a six year period and in the last six months, the company's attitude has gone to name calling.
PN1053
Am I write in saying that this basically arises out of the current dispute?---No, I believe it started in October 2003 when we as a union rejected the 42 hour week and the companies didn't believe they were getting anything out of our current agreement. That's when I personally believe the rot started and that's when - if we had any dispute or we looked like having any dispute rather than sit down and go through what I see as the process, is that you raise the dispute and you go through different levels, but the company just goes straight and applies for an application to the Commission for a ruling or a hearing on the agreement without sitting down and trying to work through the issue, which previously the company had been doing.
PN1054
So that's been your experience in recent times?---At least 6 October 2003.
PN1055
All right. Now I just want to take you back to the agreement and the wording of the agreement and your evidence is that it was put together by lay people, people on the job and what - how should it be read, should it be read in - - -
PN1056
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Heelan?
PN1057
MR HEELAN: Again, a fairly leading sort of question, your Honour. I object on those grounds.
PN1058
MR McLANE: It's borderline, ma'am in my submission.
PN1059
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, can you re-phrase it.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XN MR MCLANE
PN1060
MR McLANE: I can, ma'am. The intent of the words, and I'll be specific, clause 7(b), how should they be construed, should they be construed in the common every day usage of the Australian language or in some other way. Just answer my question don't worry about?---I believe it should be done in the common language. I inherited the 83 agreement and the 84 agreement and I was involved in the 2003. In all the negotiations I had with the company in any area of the 2003 agreement, there was no legal representations in there, there were only the managers or the supervisors, obviously they took it off-site to have people look at it, there was representatives from the union, there was representatives from our Perth office that were there, and basically it was myself, Mr Coates was sitting in the background and representatives from the other refineries. I'm not a legal person, I've learnt a lot in the last six years, some the hard way, some the easy way, but I honestly don't believe that that agreement was written for the intent for legal people to look over, I believe that it was written for the workers and the managers or the workers and the foremen, the lowest level to sort out their problems, but you get these people - - -
PN1061
Thank you Mr McDade, ma'am, I have no further questions.
PN1062
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Heelan?
MR HEELAN: Thank you, your Honour.
PN1064
MR HEELAN: Mr McDade, in the last two years, how many issues have been bought to the Commission in relation to mining?---In relation to?
PN1065
Mining?---Very little, very little indeed.
PN1066
How many?---In relation to mining or in relation to Huntley?
PN1067
Start with mining and then we'll go to Huntley if you like?---I cannot speak for Willowdale or Orion because I am not involved in disputes they raise but from comments made by Mr Cardlini that he had a desk full of disputes raised at the previous site that he was, at the specific site I was looking after, I would say five.
PN1068
To the Commission?---And I would be saying that would be top line. Could you correct me on that?
PN1069
There's very few isn't there?---Bugger all.
PN1070
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any answers, yes, Mr McDade?
---Sorry ma'am.
PN1071
That's all right. That's how we understand "bugger all"?---Okay, thank you. Sorry.
PN1072
That's okay.
PN1073
MR HEELAN: Mr McDade, that's because Alcoa puts a big investment into resolving issues at a local level, isn't it?---No, I believe it's because of the union, it puts a lot of issue into resolving it at the lowest level. That's been my doctrine from day one and I think, I've turned around and said to any managers, I've always tried to resolve any issue at the lowest level which is either the one on one issue between two workers or a worker and a foreman before it escalates anywhere. I've always stated that I've always tried to solve issues at the lowest level.
PN1074
So you say the union puts the big effort in?---No, I know it's the union.
PN1075
When you were the convenor, you did just that work, didn't you, just convening work?---Not for the six years, certainly for a period of just over two and a half years prior to when I was voted out in October last year.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XXN MR HEELAN
PN1076
You did nothing else but union work?---No, not entirely. I was doing what I would call industrial relations work because the company had no industrial relations officers. I worked quite clearly with Carol Gough in regard to workers' compensation, TP & Ds for work, total permanent disability claims for workers, personal issues, it was not just union issues, I believe I did fair work for the company as well, positively.
PN1077
No machine operating?---In the early part of when I was made into the liaison officer, I did try to fit in with the shifts, but it just became increasingly harder and harder, but yes, for a period of a good 18 months no machine operating at all, I agree with that.
PN1078
Alcoa paid you for all that time?---As per what we agreed to, yes.
PN1079
Alcoa paid you?---Alcoa paid me, yes.
PN1080
To attend to union business?---I think it was basically to look after the agreement that we were in. Now if you would like to go back to the 2003 cost challenge, it gives you all the details of why these positions were created.
PN1081
Perhaps if I put it another way, it might be more appropriate. Union and other related business?---Union and Alcoa business.
PN1082
Union and industrial relations work?---Well, industrial relations - industrial relations, yes that's true. Human resources as well.
PN1083
Given your concerns about the 12 hour shifts and the travel time, do you think it's preferable for the company to change back to eight hour shifts?---I worked the eight hour shifts before, I know exactly what they are, I have to admit, I was not happy doing the eight hour shifts, it is quite hard but on the other point of view is when I look at my union status, it would create a lot of employment for people and I would have to say that if the company did decide to go back to the eight hour roster system, it would be a benefit for workers because more people would be employed and basically that is what I do for the union, I look for full-time employment for people. I don't have a problem with the eight hour roster being re-introduced by the company.
PN1084
Well it doesn't necessarily follow that more people will be employed, does it?
---That's my perception of how the company would have to run if they went from currently, what are we, a five panel shift roster
12 hour shifts to a four panel roster, eight hour shifts of the amount of crews they've got. To me, it's just, being a layman, logically
there would be more people employed.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XXN MR HEELAN
PN1085
It was the union that wanted the 12 hour shifts wasn't it?---No, that is not true.
PN1086
No, who was it?---I believe it was the company.
PN1087
And they forced you onto it, did they?---It was negotiated. If there was anyone forced onto a 12 hour shift, it would have had to have been the rehab crews at the time. They were currently on a 10.3 and the company at the time invoked the 48 hour clause which is in our current agreement and I will be fair to them, they gave them a good month or month and a half preparation to say, "You are now going from a 10.3 roster to a 12 hour roster because it is more cost efficient", so I would have to say it was not the union who wanted the 12 hour shifts, it was the company.
PN1088
This is for the rehab people?---When I - yes, that was for the rehab people. The 12.52 roster which was specifically for production, wasn't negotiated at the time and I wasn't part of that, I wasn't even a shop steward, I was on an eight hour shift roster.
PN1089
But where there was a group of employees that wanted to stay on the 10.4 hour shift system and the company wanted to change it, the company just gave its notice and changed them. Is that correct?---Basically, there was a dispute put in at the time and I was wrong at the time and I stood up in front of the mass members and said - I honestly believed them at the time that they didn't have the right to shift them from a 12 hour roster, I was wrong at the time and I went and told the membership at the time that I was wrong, the company had the right to move them to the 12 hour shift and the workers did.
PN1090
And they moved?---And they moved to the 12 hour shift.
PN1091
Because that was the company's right to work?---Correct, at the time.
PN1092
Mr McDade, Mr Horne's direction in relation to the shift to McCoy, you were provided with a copy of that by Mr Horne before it went out to the employees, weren't you?---We had discussions in - what document are you actually talking about?
PN1093
Mr Horne's direction, the written direction to employees?---He advised me that he was going to do it.
PN1094
And he showed it to you?---I believe he did, yes, I believe he did. I didn't have a hard copy, but I believe he showed it to me.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XXN MR HEELAN
PN1095
You raised a bit of an issue about crusher zones. Does it really matter whether it's called a crusher zone?---I'm not the one who gets pedantic about words.
PN1096
Does it really matter to you? It's where the crusher's located isn't it?---I was asked the question, have I heard the word zone being used before, my answers were no. It's always been referred to as a mine site. I only have the Alcoa doctrine in regard to mining, because it's the only mine I've ever worked in and I've been there nearly sixteen and a half years, and it's only been in the last few months in regard to documents that they've used the word zone. I mean, the common language up there is site or area.
PN1097
In Alcoa documentation, ..... referred to as a McCoy facility?---I've used the word facility in McCoy, canteen facilities, which ended up with an argument because the company didn't understand what I meant with facilities, so I mean, it's just whatever you perceive as the word.
PN1098
But whatever you call it, everyone knows what we're talking about don't they? Where the crusher moves to?---No, I disagree with you. If you went out there and asked them where the McCoy zone was, they would be looking at maybe a catchment map, they wouldn't be looking at the crusher site or the crusher area or the mine sites.
PN1099
What do you call Orion?---Orion.
PN1100
What is?---It's a mine site.
PN1101
A mine site is it?---As far as I'm concerned, it's a mine site.
PN1102
What's Arundel?---I believe - well me personally? It's the name of a ..... road. I don't have much to do with Willowdale or Orion, I believe - - -
PN1103
Dell Park?---Dell Park was a mine site. I worked at Dell Park mine site, on and off.
PN1104
White Road?---White Road is a mine site.
PN1105
So you refer to them all as mine sites?---Yes.
PN1106
Wherever the crusher is located, you call it a mine site?---Well North Road, North Road mine site, too. When I first started at North Road.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XXN MR HEELAN
PN1107
Do you call a mine site, wherever there is a crusher located?---Under the Alcoa terms, yes.
PN1108
No, I'm asking you?---As I said earlier - - -
PN1109
Do you call a mine site?---I can only use the Alcoa terminology, because it's the only mine I've ever worked in.
PN1110
Do you call a mine site wherever there's a crusher located?---I still refer to the Dell Park mine site, but there's no crusher there. I still refer to the White Road mine site, there's no crusher there.
PN1111
To stop you, because there used to be a crusher there?---That's correct.
PN1112
So where there's currently a crusher or previously been a crusher, do you refer to that as a mine site?---Yes. I've only been educated by Alcoa in regard to mine sites.
PN1113
What's Huntley?---It's a mine site.
PN1114
So how many mine sites does Alcoa have?---Well it depends who you ask.
PN1115
I'm asking you?---I mean, well I think I've explained it. Every time they've changed the name and called it, to me it's a mine site. I think I've made that clear, but in some documentation, they just call it the mining organisation, they talk about all the sites into one, nowadays in company documents, they refer to Willowdale, Orion, I've got to admit, I haven't seen Arundel mine site too much, I've seen Arundel Road, White Road, McCoy mine site, Dell Park, as all the mining operation, but they break it down as mine sites.
PN1116
But Alcoa has only got two mines, hasn't it? Huntley and Willowdale?---To be correct, no, I don't believe that's true. I believe they have mine sites overseas. You said Alcoa, you didn't say Alcoa WA.
PN1117
Alcoa Word Alumina Australia WA Operations has two mine sites - two mine sites? Huntley and Willowdale?---I believe there's more. There's the Orion mine site, there's the Willowdale mine site, there's the Huntley mine site, there's the McCoy mine site.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XXN MR HEELAN
PN1118
This is wherever there's been crushers?---Well you've still got some operations in Dell Park, which is still the Dell Park mine site, but there's still no crusher there, but yes you are correct, there was a crusher there at one stage.
PN1119
There used to be a crusher there some years ago?---Correct.
PN1120
In those days you referred to it as a mine site?---Correct.
PN1121
Because you used to refer to it as a mine site some years ago, you still do today?
---That's the way I understand it, yes.
PN1122
And I think if you look at any old maps or any current maps, they actually mark it, old mine site area.
PN1123
What site were you the convenor of?---To start off with originally, I was the Huntley convenor, which incorporated - it was White Road, I think the North Road had been closed since then.
PN1124
Huntley, what does the Huntley convenor's role involve? What's the scope of the Huntley convenor's role?---Are you talking about
in current days or when I
was - - -
PN1125
In your time?---Basically in those days, it was just to handle disputes on site.
PN1126
Just at Huntley?---Yes, and Dell Park.
PN1127
White Road?---White Road.
PN1128
McCoy?---McCoy was non-existent at that time, when I was just a convenor.
PN1129
The Huntley employees that worked down the Pinjarra end?---Yes.
PN1130
All the employees within the Huntley mine site, wasn't it Mr McDade?---Yes, that's true.
PN1131
Regardless of which crusher zone or crusher site or crusher location they worked at or where they worked, all the employees in the Huntley mine site?---And you also forgot Muranup Nursery and Exploration Drillers, which I had overseen as well, so I was spread over quite a fair area, which did include people at Dell Park mine site, which included White Road mine site and just up until recently, very recently, because by the time most people got to the McCoy mine site, I was only in the position of a liaison officer for two weeks before Simon took it over.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XXN MR HEELAN
PN1132
Now clause 7(b) has been used before, hasn't it? It was used for Arundel to Orion, Dell Park, Dell Park to Huntley, wasn't it?---I can't comment on that, because as I said earlier, I have nothing to do with Willowdale or Arundel, the Dell Park move to Huntley was I believe in 1988, which was the year I started and I was only a worker then, so I can't turn around and say to you, that we used that 7(b) and in actual fact, I don't think 7(b) existed back there when Dell Park shifted to Huntley because we were still under an agreement, we weren't under an EBA then, so 7(b) would only have been to my knowledge, put in the 83 agreement - 93.
PN1133
Were you affected by the move from Dell Park to Huntley?---No, because I was employed at Huntley.
PN1134
Now, the second stage of the transfer from Dell Park to Huntley occurred in 1998, didn't it?---The workshop part, I believe yes.
PN1135
Any AWU members affected by that?---Yes there was.
PN1136
Clause 7(b) was used, wasn't it?---Not to my knowledge.
PN1137
What was used then?---You would have to ask Mr Ray Baker, who was the convenor at the time or maybe Neil Johnson, I'm not too sure who was actually sitting in the chair there.
PN1138
You weren't convenor in those days, in 1998?---Towards the end of 1998, I was.
PN1139
But you had no involvement?---No involvement at the Dell Park move.
PN1140
Now the company's always maintained - - -
PN1141
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you going onto a new topic?
PN1142
MR HEELAN: I am, your Honour, yes.
PN1143
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This will be a convenient time, then. You will be required back again tomorrow, Mr McDade. Now I can start a little earlier than 10 am but I'm conscious of the need to travel. Is 9.30 a possibility? Can we do 9.30? Well you're going to have to be sitting where you are there tomorrow morning, Mr McDade?---I'll be here at 8.30 if you want.
**** WILLIAM MCDADE XXN MR HEELAN
PN1144
That's okay. 9.30? Yes. I'm confident - I'd start earlier if I had any doubts that the matter might not finish tomorrow, but I'm confident that sitting normal sitting hours, we will finish both the evidence and submissions, unless either of you have any doubts, so I certainly want to achieve that. Very good.
PN1145
I might have got a little ambitious this morning and asked the Registry to put it in the cause list for tomorrow at 9 am. Would you ignore that and now leave the Commission knowing it is 9.30 that we are adjourning to.
<ADJOURNED UNTIL, 9.30AM, TUESDAY 11 JANUARY 2005
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
SIMON FREDERICK PRICE, SWORN PN31
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCLANE PN31
EXHIBIT #AWU2 RESPONDENT'S SUBMISSIONS, INCLUDING DOCUMENT (D) PN315
EXHIBIT #AWU3 BUNDLE OF 16 DOCUMENTS PN318
EXHIBIT #AWU4 TWO PAGE DOCUMENT RE MCCOY EMERGENCY EVACUATION (HUN) PN355
EXHIBIT #AWU5 COPY OF FRONT PAGE OF BOOKLET FOR MONTHLY STAFF SYSTEMS PN392
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN PN418
SIMON FREDERICK PRICE, ON FORMER OATH PN607
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN, CONTINUING PN607
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN622
SIMON FREDERICK PRICE, RECALLED ON FORMER OATH PN666
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN, CONTINUING PN666
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCLANE PN818
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN825
EXHIBIT #ALCOA3 EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT PN833
WILLIAM MCDADE, SWORN PN847
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCLANE PN847
EXHIBIT #AWU6 STATEMENT OF WILLIAM MCDADE PN874
EXHIBIT #AWU7 EXTRACTS FROM MINERS RIGHT PN987
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEELAN PN1063
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