C1999/178, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 1821 (5 September 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 12568-1

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DUNCAN

C1999/178

Item 51 - Part 2 Schedule 5, WROLA Act 1996
(C1999/178)

SYDNEY

10.08AM, MONDAY, 22 AUGUST 2005

THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE CONDUCTED VIA VIDEO CONFERENCE AND RECORDED IN SYDNEY

Continued from 26/7/2005

PN80

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think it has become my practice to take appearances in this matter, appearances maybe of significance in the future, one never knows. I will start in Sydney.

PN81

MR C FLATT: I appear on behalf of the CEPU, the Communications Electrical and Plumbing Union, a continuing appearance from a number of years ago, but worth just noting appearance before and have noted that MRA McCALLUM has been appearing on behalf of the CEPU in the last few months in relation to this matter, and with me also, MR L BENFELL.

PN82

MR J COONEY: I appear on behalf of the LHMU, if your Honour pleases.

PN83

MR R THOMAS: I appear on behalf of the NTEU.

PN84

MR M PERICA: I appear on behalf of the CPSU.

PN85

MR N WAUGH: I appear on behalf of the University of Melbourne, if the Commission pleases.

PN86

MR K CAMERON: I appear on behalf of the AHEIA.

PN87

MR G CRUNDALL: I appear on behalf of Monash University.

PN88

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I might note, Mr Cameron, that I have had printed off what is hopefully the final draft of the ATWP award. Would you care to put on the record what the parties have achieved in the matter so far?

PN89

MR CAMERON: Thank you, your Honour, yes, I am happy to talk about it. One question I did have though is there is also another matter listed this morning which is the CEPU application for respondency to the Higher Education Workers Victoria Award. I guess it doesn't really matter what order it is dealt with, but in the draft that I have sent to you, I have already included them as respondents yet we haven't had the hearing yet so I guess that is sort of indicating that there is clearly consent from this end from the table of their application.

PN90

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I take your point, but the draft is a draft.

PN91

MR CAMERON: The draft is a draft, your Honour. When I sent that to you at about 4 o'clock on Friday, I was very confident that that would be the last draft that we would be sending to you. However, since then some of my colleagues have got nothing better to do with themselves on a Sunday afternoon have discovered that there are some errors if you like in particular to clause 12 in part 1 which the accident make up pay.

PN92

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Accident make up pay in clause 12 in part 1.

PN93

MR CAMERON: That would be at page 9.

PN94

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I have it.

PN95

MR CAMERON: What we have in Melbourne and unfortunately a lot of this happened this morning we haven't had an opportunity to forward it to yourself yet. If we have another draft clause that covers part 2(a) and 2(b) employees. You will see from the draft that you do have that there is a part for part 2(a) and 2(b) and there is a part for all other employees except for (c) which is on page 10 about three quarters of the way down the page.

PN96

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN97

MR CAMERON: Part 2(a) and 2(b) applies to the NTEU and the CPSU. We intend to hopefully get their approval to the proposed draft that was done this morning, and we will simply replace what we have in there for part 2(a) and 2(b) with the new one, and we would envisage that that would happen today. So by the end of today we will have what we hope would be the final draft if you like. Does that make sense?

PN98

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I understand that I believe. In due course I will hear from the NTEU and the CPSU on the matter I guess. Is there anything else of a general kind?

PN99

MR CAMERON: Yes, there is, your Honour. When we last met you indicated that you thought that anything of a common nature should be, if possible, put into one clause in the common area and have application across the whole award rather than repeating itself several times throughout the award. What we have tried to do since then and I believe we have succeeded is things like termination of employment and redundancy which were common across parts 3(a), (b), (c), (d) and 4(a), (b), (c) where they are applicable in parts 3 and 4. We have taken them out and put them into part 1 as well. So we have further simplified the award. I think the last time we were looking at it there were about 350 pages, I think we are now down to about 270 pages.

PN100

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I noticed that when it came off the email this morning, and was struck by that. You have achieved a considerable reduction in sheer size. It is not a prize you would want to have, is it, the longest award in Christendom or whatever, but that is a big achievement that reduction in pages.

PN101

MR CAMERON: And that was purely simply the removal of the multiple copies of parental leave, redundancy and termination of employment as I mentioned. We also put in the 2005 safety net adjustment rates. We also put in the heads classification structure, and we also included the casual's case decision in this award which is all the things we discussed before you when you were in Melbourne on the last occasion. All I would suggest, your Honour, is subject to a few typographical errors that have been picked up this morning, subject to the NTEU and the CPSU position on the accident make up pay, and subject to looking at the document that I received from Steve Stone this morning which has got some suggested formatting issues, subject to all those things, I would suggest that this will be the last award, and we would be hopeful that following today, we would just be in a position where we would be able to forward via email you the latest award and hopefully have the award made.

PN102

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thank you, Mr Cameron, we will certainly aim for that. Does either Mr Crundall or Mr Waugh wish to say anything at this stage?

PN103

MR CRUNDALL: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, I have had an opportunity to view the draft that Mr Cameron has referred to at clause 12 of the accident make up pay, and I am happy to say that Monash supports that draft that is being proposed. Also, in regard to particular part 1, clauses 17 and 18, there are some exclusions now to be inserted into those clauses. In particular, clause 17 there is to be categories of staff excluded from the operation of that clause, namely, builders' labourers, carpenters and joiners and painters. This was an oversight in inserting it under the common provisions in part 1, and there is also to be a variation of clause 18, redundancy, to exclude its operation from part 4(b) employees. Subject to those amendments going through, Monash would endorse the submissions made by Mr Cameron on behalf of AHEIA, and subject to any further errors and omissions discovered, Monash would be happy to endorse this document.

PN104

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Crundall. One point you said raised in my mind the need to record that in a document of this size and complexity if we are still not discovering typos or that kind of error in 12 months time, I will be very surprised, but that comes with the territory. Mr Waugh?

PN105

MR WAUGH: Thank you, your Honour. I am indebted to Mr Bown of my office and my colleagues at the table here for doing most of the work to date on this, but I am advised that there is no reason for the University not to support the current draft with the exception of clause 12 which I took the liberty to redrafting over the weekend. Pending those edits being acceptable to the other parties, I endorse the submissions of my colleagues from the employer's side of the table here, and quite happy to be a party to the award.

PN106

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Waugh, and thanks for your work on Sunday. I think Mr Thomas, I had better go to you because this clause 12 is your interest and Mr Perica's, isn't it?

PN107

MR THOMAS: That is correct, your Honour. It is not too much different from what has already been conveyed to you this morning, your Honour, as Mr Cameron indicated, we thought that we had finally reached an agreed final version on Friday afternoon which made going to the football very relaxing on Friday night, however, and we had some verbal changes on the accident make up pay clause, but fortuitously I went to the office before coming here this morning and received Mr Waugh's clause at ten past nine on the email. So I have had a chance to read it, but obviously we haven't gone through it point by point at this stage, but it is not outside the ball park and I am sure that we can reach a final version today which would on balance then the NTU would be comfortable and support that final draft. The only task that remains outstanding for the NTU is the 113 application to change the name of Hawthorn Institute of Education Limited to Melbourne University Private Limited, your Honour, which we discussed at the last hearing.

PN108

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I will make a note of that.

PN109

MR THOMAS: So that will be done, well, we can do that today as far as the formal application is concerned, your Honour, but other then that I think the parties are pretty much in broad agreement as to the document.

PN110

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thanks, Mr Thomas, that is good. Mr Perica?

PN111

MR PERICA: Your Honour, I haven't got much to add subject to a close reading of the new accident make up pay clause, which doesn't look too different to me, I support the making of the award.

PN112

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Mr Flatt?

PN113

MR FLATT: The CEPU would also agree with the comments put forward today that we have had a look over this document over the last week, but in light of the proposed changes we would suggest a number of days to just peruse over the final documents, and then all going well we would be tidying up consent for the making of the award.

PN114

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very good. Mr Cooney?

PN115

MR COONEY: We support the submissions of the NTU and the CPSU, and don't oppose the submissions of Monash or Melbourne or Mr Cameron.

PN116

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Cooney. I think that has given everybody who is immediately involved an opportunity to speak. As I understand the position that has been reached is that subject to a few days grace for parties to contemplate changes that have been made as recently as this morning, that the draft that has been presented today which I will mark exhibit AHEIA 200.

EXHIBIT #AHEIA200 DRAFT

PN117

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Subject to that that draft will be the document that will be prepared to issue. I know from Steve having spoken to me that one of the things that we want to check is whether that numbering system that our specialists seem to like is in fact fully carried out, but that has nothing to do with the text.

PN118

Subject to that I agree with the thought expressed by Mr Cameron that this should be the last time that we have to meet on this topic. That will be good. What I direct is that within 14 days each party to the award advise the Commission by email that it accepts exhibit AHEIA200 as varied in particularly in relation to clause 12 of part 1 or division 1. Armed with that I will be able to issue a brief decision which publishes the award.

PN119

I think that completes everything. If this is the last time, I thank those people who have been associated with it for the whole of the time; there are a few of you, for the work that has been put in. It has been a difficult exercise, and certainly time consuming. I shudder to think that the rest of you maybe doing it again. However, that is in the lap of the gods.

PN120

That is enough on that one; I will move to the other matter in this category and have it called.

<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [10.24AM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #AHEIA200 DRAFT PN116