C2005/4431, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 1860 (7 September 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

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Workplace Relations Act 1996 12636-1

COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN

C2005/4431

DOWNER ENGINEERING POWER PTY LTD
AND
THE AUSTRALIAN WORKERS' UNION AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS, ENGINEERING, PRINTING AND KINDRED INDUSTRIES UNION COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
s.99 - Notification of an industrial dispute
(C2005/4431)

BRISBANE

10.34AM, FRIDAY, 26 AUGUST 2005

PN1

MR D GITTUS: I am human resources manager for Downer Engineering and I appear for Downer Engineering Power. Appearing with me I have MR GRAEME GILSHENAN who is the site project manager and MR ROB CANDELORO who is the Brisbane mechanical branch manager.

PN2

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.

PN3

MR D BROANDA: On behalf of the Australian Workers Union. Commissioner, with me clearly there is a number of people but of interest for the court reporter is BARRY MARTIN, an organiser with the AWU, STEVEN CARRUTH, spelt C-a-r-r-u-t-h, a delegate with the AWU and ADRIAN MURRAY, also a delegate with the AWU. May it please the Commission.

PN4

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.

PN5

MR R WEBB: I appear for the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union. With me today I have two senior delegates, MR ROBERT HOLT and RAYNE BARNETT.

PN6

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks Mr Webb.

PN7

MR A HICKS: Commissioner, for the CEPU, with me delegate TREVOR GAULD and workplace health and safety representative MICK HURLEY and our industrial officer KERRY INGLIS.

PN8

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks Mr Hicks. Yes Mr Gittus?

PN9

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, the company seeks the assistance of the Commission in facilitating an immediate return to work for our workforce, members of the AWU, the AMWU and the ETU at the Caltex Lytton Refinery site.

PN10

Members of the AMWU called a stop work on Wednesday 24 August at 8.30 am and following their meeting proceeded to withdraw their labour and went on strike. The AMWU delegates advised the company that their meeting passed the following motion:

PN11

The AMWU are withdrawing labour for the rest of today, meet again 6.15 am tomorrow morning, hopefully with an organiser present, over concerns of the elected Health and Safety Rep's resignation, safe work practices with scaffolding and a feeling of lack of communication between management and employees.

PN12

Shortly after at their morning smoko break members of the AWU and ETU met and also decided to proceed on strike. The reasons were similar to the AMWU and the ETU added that there was a consistent breakdown of safety commitments and continual reoccurrence of safety concerns.

PN13

Yesterday at 6.15 am the three unions and their organisers held a meeting outside the refinery and decided to come back to the work sheds at approximately 7.30 am. The organisers and delegates met with the company and advised that the men had decided to stay in the sheds until the issues in dispute were resolved. The company responded that firstly it did not know the specifics as to why the workforce had withdrawn their labour, secondly it was not acceptable to discuss merits of any issue whilst people were undertaking industrial action.

PN14

The unions, through Mr Hicks, advised that the issue was that the men had lost faith in Downer Engineering management to manage safety on the site. The company asked for details of this allegation and the unions agreed on the basis that the company was prepared to discuss the merits. The company responded that it wanted a return to work and given that the Union agreed that the whole worksite was not unsafe, people could return to the areas that were not in dispute. The Union declined on the basis that they had lost faith in the Downer Engineering management to operate the site safely.

PN15

The company further considered the unions' position and due to the allegation of lost faith in management's ability to manage the site safely and wanting to get a resumption to work, advised the union that it would discuss the issues but the unions need to understand that there will be no payment made whilst employees remain on strike. The company added that:

PN16

We consider that our safety systems are robust and if the unions have problems they should raise those concerns with the management concerned and not take direct industrial action in the first instance.

PN17

The unions advised that this was not acceptable and that we best resolve matters in the Commission. The company is also concerned that the unions are in breach of their enterprise agreement, we have a disputes settling clause in that agreement which provides for a process to continue work whilst issues are resolved. Clearly in this situation, Commissioner, the unions have taken premature industrial action without exhausting the provisions of this process.

PN18

The company has asked for details of their grievances and to date have had no specifics. The company remain of the view that our safety management on site is sound and we are prepared to discuss with the unions any issues in dispute. The company is committed to discuss with individuals and work teams areas of their concern with the objective of resolving those issues at the work team level. We are here today, Commissioner, to seek your assistance in bringing the strike to an end and also to facilitate a process where the unions' issues can be outlined and resolved. If the Commission pleases.

PN19

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Broanda?

PN20

MR BROANDA: If the Commission pleases, Commissioner, there is a number of issues going on at the Caltex site, the Greenfield's Project with Downer Engineering employees. A number of the specifics Mr Webb may be able to elaborate on but if I can just give you an overarching picture of what is going on, Commissioner.

PN21

There are a number of long running issues to do with health and safety on the site that were ultimately brought to a head on Wednesday morning, and I will come back to the Wednesday morning incident shortly. Commissioner, there are, as I say, a number of incidences that have gone on, Commissioner I will not take up the Commission's time, I have got about three hours worth of material here that the membership have put together over the last day or two of incidences that have occurred in recent times, the last few weeks to the last few months. An example I could give the Commission, is a member was working on a 63 metre tower, the only crane able to access that member in an emergency situation was grounded due to management of Downer allowing the crane operator on site - that crane operator had no knowledge of site induction procedures or safety or permits required, et cetera. So management shut down that crane, left the worker on the tower with no way of accessing that worker in the case of an emergency, no advice was given to that worker to come down that, "You are working in an unsafe area", management simply shut down the crane and advised no one. That member rightfully felt concerned for his health and safety because of management's breakdown in procedures I guess you could characterise it as.

PN22

Another incident was there have recently been three incidences with scaffolds being modified in contravention of the Downer Health and Safety Handbook which I will come back to in a moment. The incidents, the three incidents on the scaffolds relate to supervisors within Downer taking shortcuts, instead of getting scaffolders to do the job, to move scaffolding around, et cetera, management or supervisors within Downer ordering other employees to do it, unqualified, untrained, un-knowledgeable people to move these scaffolds around which have caused at least three incidences in recent times.

PN23

Another example I have, Commissioner, is there was an incident about a driver bringing on to site a 100 tonne crane. The driver failed to sign in, management failed to issue him or even check that the appropriate licences or qualifications dealing with site induction and safety on site of this crane driver had occurred prior to the driver coming on site.

PN24

Commissioner, there is something called an authority to work card, that workers have to have, Commissioner. It is something of a site locator, when you come onto site you notify the site shed where you are and they keep track in case of an emergency. They know for arguments sake Joe Citizen is in part of the plant, Jane Citizen is over in this part of the plant. Now this particular crane driver did not even end up getting one of those cards. When a cross-reference was done with these cards and the locators of where workers were, the card that was there notifying of a worker on site, that worker had actually left the site, the crane driver that had come on with his 100 tonne crane had not even registered. There was no record of this person being on site.

PN25

Commissioner, the examples, they are only obviously a couple of examples of some 200 odd pages of incidences that have occurred. Commissioner, as I say I can go on with more if need be. The issue though, Commissioner, that is relevant is that there are a number of ongoing health and safety issues that are occurring and they occur what appears to be on a daily basis at the site. I will not go into the reasons for why the AMWU delegates standing down from that committee, I will leave that to Mr Webb, but the frustration is evident by today's appearance Commissioner, of the workers and their frustration with management of Downer in the Caltex project.

PN26

Commissioner, there is a book produced called The Downer Engineering Health and Safety Handbook. There are things in here that talk about, for example on page 27 of this handbook:

PN27

Chemical substances used in the work environment can be harmful if not used in the correct manner. Prior to using a chemical substance make sure that you have a material safety data sheet for the substance and that you are familiar with the contents.

PN28

Now Commissioner, one of the chemicals used on site is something called Chartec, what happens is metal to be used on the construction part of the plant is covered in this material when it comes on site, now if that piece of metal needs to be altered or modified in some way so it is cut or welded in some way, this Chartec gets damaged and it needs to be reapplied. Now the guys applying this Chartec, they have asked for the last three months at least for a material safety data sheet on what these chemicals are that these guys are using. What they are becoming in contact with.

PN29

Now as I understand it that material safety data sheet is still not available, what the company has in fact done was when these issues were raised they asked for, if I can classify them as the paint salesman, the salesman of the product to come out and speak to the workers. Surprisingly, Commissioner, the salesman of the product came out and gloated about how safe it was and how good a product it was and how it should be used more and the company that he represented should be selling more to Downer Engineering. No independent analysis of what the chemical is, no material safety data sheet done independently by agencies such as Natural Resources and Mines that assist in the production of such materials.

PN30

Commissioner, again it comes back to the frustration of the workers on site that they repeatedly are asked for information, they repeatedly asked for the company to effectively practice what it preaches. One of the things that the guys on site have to go through when they start is something of a three day induction course that the guys have to go through. Many of the workers come to the site, they hear about this three day induction course, they then sit the three day induction course, they come out and they hear the preachings of the company that, "You will go home in the same position in that which you arrived at work". That is you will have all your fingers and toes with you, you will not have any chemicals in your lungs, you will not have anything else wrong with your body.

PN31

They come to work with the hope and the expectation of a healthy and safe workplace and then they see these sorts of goings on going on place, Commissioner, they take it up through appropriate channels, they take it up through the Health and Safety Committee and nothing appears to happen. As with the material safety data sheet, as with the repeated incidences with the scaffolds. Health and safety issues continue to happen on a daily basis; management either do not care or do nothing readily discernable to address the issues.

PN32

There is no feedback about what changes need to take place as a result of issues occurring in the workplace, there are any number of incidences I can take you to, Commissioner, but perhaps for the sake of progressing today's proceedings if I need to come back, if the Commission would like more information, as I say I have some 200 pages in front of me that I can tender to the Commission that outline all the safety issues which contrary to the company's stated position this morning, have been raised with the company, have been raised repeatedly with the company to no avail on the side of the workers raising the issues.

PN33

Commissioner, the incident that I mentioned at the start that occurred on Wednesday that ultimately brought it to a head was there was scaffolding erected or altered, moved, earlier this week and it was not done by, I guess, the recognised scaffolding crew. What ultimately happened, Commissioner, was there was a scaffold erected with two planks of the scaffold put on the walkway, on the runway so to speak, a tarp was laid over the top of the scaffolds so that you could not see the planks underneath and what actually happened was there was a gap of about 200 mil between the two planks because the scaffold was not installed properly. A tarp was laid over the scaffold, the guy walking on the scaffold has put his foot straight through it and gone up to his hip in the scaffolding structure and injured himself.

PN34

Now, that is ultimately what has brought the situation to a head on Wednesday morning. It was that incident following a number of incidences that have been raised with management and it just seems to fall on deaf ears, Commissioner. As I say nothing changes, nothing is altered, the general attitude of the company appears to be, "Well let's just get the job done and let's all just go our separate ways". There is no recognition of the fact that these guys' lives are in danger, it is a dangerous worksite by its very nature, given the location and the substances they are dealing with in close proximity, being the petroleum and LPG and raw oil and all the other explosive products that are out there at the Caltex site.

PN35

But to have the company apparently on the face of it, ignore health and safety issues that are arising, just cumulates over time, Commissioner, and ultimately, as I say the straw that broke the camel's back was the issue on Wednesday morning.

PN36

Now what the guys, as I understand it, what the guys are seeking is for the company to recognise all these health and safety issues as being legitimate health and safety issues, to sit down with the guys and try and figure out what is going wrong, where is everything breaking down, and why aren't the supervisors, particularly within the company, practicing what they preach in terms of health and safety. There is a safety handbook both of Downer Engineering, there is one produced by Caltex as well for project personnel, and Commissioner, it puts health and safety up there in your face, yet it appears on site that the company particularly within Downer, we are only here for Downer today, but particularly within Downer Engineering, appear to pay no regard to their own handbook, to that produced by Caltex, the issues raised by the Health and Safety Management Team of which the unions up until very recently were a part of.

PN37

And Commissioner as you can tell as I said earlier, you can tell by the turnout here today there is a very keen interest by the employees of Downer Engineering to see some change within the company, to see some sort of recognition of their safety concerns as being legitimate concerns. Unless I can assist the Commission any further at this stage, that would conclude the opening Commissioner. As I say I do have quite a significant list of issues that have been put into writing by the membership here today that can be referenced if need be. May it please.

PN38

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks Mr Broanda. Yes Mr Webb?

PN39

MR WEBB: Mr Hicks, I will follow.

PN40

MR HICKS: Thanks Commissioner. I think we need to paint a very clear picture for you, Commissioner, in regards to the history of this project and I hope to do that through my submission. A couple of opening remarks from Mr Gittus I need to comment on, firstly that the employees of Downer Engineering are not on strike, they are on site apart from the people that have made the effort and time to come in and listen to these proceedings today, are on strike ready and available to return to work when they are confident management have the ability to instruct them and to allow them to carry out safe and proper instructions, Commissioner.

PN41

I think that I will throw through this submission, Commissioner, that there is a genuine concern for the workers' safety and wellbeing and that is what I hope to demonstrate today. Commissioner, there has been no argument whatsoever about the safety procedures and systems that Downer Engineering have in place, we have not argued that from day one. What we have argued quite strongly, Commissioner, is the fact that Downer Management have not got the ability to monitor, to enforce and police these procedures and systems they put in place. In fact, Commissioner, systems have broken down over a number of times and it has been through the consideration and the cooperation of employees through the safety Committee and our delegate structure, that the systems have been put back in place and some of the current systems that are in place now have been developed by the workers on the site and they are going through that process.

PN42

So there has never been an argument about the safety systems and about those sorts of things. It is about how it is being managed and how it is being policed. We have raised this a number of times, I have spent 45 minutes trying to explain this to Mr Gittus and representatives of Downer yesterday morning, and it just was not getting through, Commissioner. With all due respect to Mr Gittus he has been on site for four days, he does not understand the history of this project, whilst he may have been briefed about the whole project, I have been involved with the site since April of this year and there has just been ongoing concerns that the workers have raised and they have not been actioned and they have not been fixed.

PN43

We believe they are too far removed from the problem at this stage, Commissioner, and that is why I suggested at the meeting that we need the assistance of the Commission to resolve this matter. We just got beaten to the punch so to speak, the employer beat us to notifying the Commission. At the close of yesterday's meeting with Mr Gittus I did raise that we would notify the Commission of the dispute and that we also would be talking to the principal contractor Schedden Uhde about the concerns the workers have because a lot of the times employees in the safety Committee have gone to Downer to get a problem resolved, they cannot get it resolved at that level so they have taken it to the next level which is Schedden Uhde which is the principal contractor for the site.

PN44

It is only since the involvement of Schedden Uhde that these problems have actually been rectified, Commissioner. So what we are saying, Commissioner, quite clearly is they are too far removed from the situation to resolve it at this stage, because they believe it is about their systems of work, about their policies and procedures that they have got in place and it is about certain particular things on the site. It is more than that, Commissioner, it is about the workers, that they have lost confidence in the ability of Downer Management to manage these structures and policies and procedures. And through this submission I can show you quite clearly a number of occasions where this occurred.

PN45

So Commissioner, over the last seven months workers have had to work in an environment, they have struggled to have their safety concerns and issues adequately addressed. Common replies such as we are looking into it, or it is ongoing have been the normal response from Downer Management. In fact until recently it has not been uncommon for issues raised several month's ago at safety meetings to still be unaddressed. We have got clear examples here, Commissioner, where items that were raised in May are still outstanding now and they are significant issues, enough to warrant people still raising them, still trying to get these things fixed.

PN46

THE COMMISSIONER: Who attends these safety meetings from management?

PN47

MR HICKS: Who attends them from management?

PN48

THE COMMISSIONER: From management yes?

PN49

MR HICKS: Graeme Gilshenan and others from management, we also have got in respect from our side, Commissioner, we have got our delegates and we have got our safety reps that are always available to attend these meetings.

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I assume you would have those. So really it is just Mr Gilshenan then is it? Is he the only one?

PN51

MR HICKS: Sorry?

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Is Mr Gilshenan the only one that is attending from management?

PN53

MR HICKS: No he is not the only one, what my delegate did just remark to me though that most of these safety meetings that do occur, the actual safety manager on the site does not attend these meetings at all. I mean the company could probably give you a clearer perspective of who they have in attendance from their side of the camp.

PN54

Commissioner, what I think has been compounding these problems are the inappropriate responses from Downer Management when confronted with issues. Statements like, "I do not want to even know", do not do much to allay the fears and concerns the workers may have. On more than one occasion Downer employees have been instructed to carry out unsafe acts by Downer Management, and when the employees have refused Downer Management have tried to approach other employees to carry out the same unsafe acts, and we have got plenty of examples to describe to you. On numerous occasions heated verbal exchanges have occurred between workers and supervisors over these unsafe acts and it has only been once the employees have actually stood their ground and strongly argued their case that the supervisors have left and left them to carry out their work in a safe manner.

PN55

As I said before, Commissioner, Trevor our delegate on site will be able to provide you with numerous examples and they will be able to support our submissions. Commissioner, the employees on this site have lost all confidence in Downer to manage their safety and wellbeing. A large number of these workers, Commissioner, have been involved in many large projects around this country and I strongly believe that they have the skills, knowledge, qualification and experience to know when a site is not being managed safely.

PN56

Employees have, on several occasions, had to bypass Downer Management as I said before and go directly to the principal contractor Schedden Uhde to get safety issues resolved. Fortunately, Commissioner, this is a matter of the employees losing all respect and trust that they have for their employers. The employees have a genuine concern about their health, safety and wellbeing. Workers have stated quite clearly that they are not comfortable to return to work under the direction of Downer Management unless they can provide proof that they can resolve their valid and genuine concerns and commit to change. We strongly believe this requires a major shake up on site of Downer Management.

PN57

On a petrochemical site like this safety is a priority. One small incident in an area of a plant can cause a cascading effect with major ramifications for the health and safety and wellbeing of all and on this particular site, Commissioner, there is a large number of workers who, as you could imagine, there is not only this project there is Transfield employees and there is also direct Caltex employees.

PN58

It needs to be added at this point, Commissioner, it is the employees of Downer Engineering that have not got the confidence in Downer Management to go back to work, there is subcontractors on this site that are currently carrying out work that are not involved in the dispute, but they are not also involved with Downer Management.

PN59

At present we do not believe enough resources or expertise are being directed towards safety to satisfy the requirements of their workers and allay their fears that they strongly hold. Commissioner, the workers currently on site are available and ready to return to work, all that we ask is Downer commit to resolve these issues and make the necessary changes to their management structure which will instil the confidence in these workers to return to work in a safe way. This is a real concern that the workers have it is the confidence that they have in Downer Management to be able to police and enforce these policies. I just want to add, Commissioner, some of the remarks and these are - I will say there is some swearing in one of these remarks, just so people are aware, but it is a quote from a particular individual on site and I will name the individual so at a later stage he has got the right to defend himself.

PN60

But workers approached Phil Colbourne who is the Workplace Health and Safety Officer regarding an issue on site and to which he replied:

PN61

I don't want to even know, I don't give a fuck about it.

PN62

For Phil this is a common response, he is well known for throwing his hands up in the air and walking off when issues are raised with him. This is one of the major problems that we have on site. This is the Workplace Health and Safety Officer that is responsible for the safety of workers on site and this is the kind of comments that we receive.

PN63

Further with Mr Colbourne, our Workplace Health and Safety Representative approached Mr Colbourne yesterday to get a copy of the site project rules. The reason why he asked for a copy of those site project rules is because in the certified agreement it says if there is a dispute about health and safety issues then it has got to be referred to the site project rules.

PN64

When he went and asked for this copy of the site project rules he replied, "I should not give you a copy until I receive authorisation from management". This is a Workplace Health and Safety Representative which is elected by his workers, he has got provisions and entitlements under legislation to access information like this, it is a fundamental part of the agreement, yet this is the sort of brick wall that they face when they go and try and address issues and try and allay the concerns and fears of their fellow workers.

PN65

There is another comment which needs to be pointed out, Mark Straney is another WHASO on site, Workplace Health and Safety Officer. At the time he was looking after the area which is known as Southpark. An issue was raised to him from a metal worker and it was once again about safety, Mark Straney with his foot drew a circle in the dirt and that is just what his response was. He basically drew the circle in the dirt and he pointed at the circle and he said, "Care factor zero". So I mean these are genuine concerns that people are raising, they are taking them up to the appropriate people, they are taking them up to the appropriate personnel through Downer Management and these are some of the simple responses.

PN66

The reason why I have gone to the detail of naming the people, Commissioner, like I said they can defend these accusations that are made against them, these allegations, but certainly this is what I am being told clearly from the workers on site on a number of occasions.

PN67

What I would like to do with the Commission's blessing is to hand it over to Trevor to further give you some quite clear examples about what some of these safety concerns and responses have been, Commissioner.

PN68

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks Mr Hicks.

PN69

MR T GAULD: I would like to thank the Commissioner for the opportunity to speak on behalf of the workers from the Caltex clean fuel site. As Alan Hicks has stated I am the elected Communications Electrical Plumbing Union delegate on the site and currently represent 26 electrical workers. I have been on this site for six months and a CEPU delegate for the past four months. It has been disheartening for me to see the continued breakdown of communication between management and the workers on this site. As a delegate and a responsible worker I have spent many hours involved in negotiations with supervision and senior management in relation to the concerns of the workforce involving Downer Engineering's management and administration of workplace health and safety.

PN70

In the past two months leading up to the situation we are currently facing I believe I have spent equal time on job to time spent attending meetings and negotiations. This astounds me as our current hours of work average 56 per week. On regular occasion I have worked back past normal finishing times and gone without meal breaks while involved in meetings and negotiations with management and supervision trying to seek resolution.

PN71

The workforce on site has strived to work in with management and on a number of occasions even offered potential solutions to site problems. One of our current site procedures for addressing workplace health and safety concerns has been created and implemented by the workforce. Unfortunately what could have been a very useful tool has been proven ineffective due to the poor administration and management. With the help of our elected Workplace Health And Safety Representative I have composed a list of examples of incidents involving poor communication, inaction and mismanagement of safety concerns on our side since 7 February this year. If it pleases you, I would like to just give you a couple of examples.

PN72

During infrastructural works and construction of a particular cable tray, concerns were raised by workers over the instructed design with regard to load bearing capabilities of a double brick veneer wall that the tray was going to be constructed on. Concerns were ignored and the workers were directed by supervisors to continue to construct this tray as per the design. On 10 August at the location which is ….. Room 2, the wall appeared to be cracking and collapsing and significantly so, due to the weight of the outer cable tray as we loaded cables onto the tray as per the construction.

PN73

On notifying the supervision of this situation the supervisor came out and he took a look at what was going on. He instructed a worker to climb up on the outside of the wall without installing any sort of supports or any sort of assistance or mechanical assistance to the tray that was buckling and the wall that was collapsing. The employee refused to undertake the work and explained that he had concerns in regards to his workplace health and safety. The supervisor then immediately approached a different worker that was in the vicinity of the area and requested him to do that work instead as the first worker refused to do this.

PN74

On 29 July, I am sorry I will just go back one. On 28 July we had a bomb threat on our site, and we have had two mass evacuations of our site from safety incidences. While our guys were mustering and moving out into the muster areas quite a lot of them were receiving phone calls as they got further from the refinery from loved ones, after seeing events on the news saying that there was bomb threats and these sorts of things occurring on the site. Some of the workers were seen to be on their mobile phones and they were approached by certain people not to use the mobile phone. Which is a fair and reasonable request considering it was a bomb threat.

PN75

We brought up our concerns with Downer Management in regards to having loved ones and family contact us in the event of these situations so that they could be put at ease to know what the status of their loved ones are at work. Downer committed at that time, and this was on 29 July that they made this commitment, that they would compose a small list of key mobile phone numbers that could be distributed to the workers' families so that the workers' families could make contact with a person on the site and find out the severity of the incident after seeing whatever the news had decided to portray it as.

PN76

This was promised to be distributed with the weekly pay slips, it has been raised in the Workplace Health And Safety Meeting Minutes and to this date today this list has still not been received by any employee on the site.

PN77

In regards to a particular supervisor, on 30 July, and once again I would just like to say that there is some bad language in this on a quote from a particular individual. But a concern was raised over we had some people that were breaching and walking through hard sand barricading areas. The hard sand barricading obviously set up to prevent people from walking into an area that is potentially unsafe. It was brought up in the morning, raised at our pre-start meeting with the supervisor Don Cogle and we were seeking some sort of assistance through Downer Management to manage the situation of people breaching safety barricades.

PN78

The response that was given to us was, and I quote:

PN79

If people breach a barricade physically throw them out and tell them to fuck off.

PN80

In the mornings, Commissioner, we have a pre-start meeting and the initiative that the Union put forward and the workers put forward to improve the workplace health and safety is so that if any issues are raised in the morning, so that they would be documented we would put them in as part of our sign on pre-start sheet. That way it could go in, be registered as the minutes, raised at the next workplace health and safety meeting and hopefully be actioned.

PN81

I have got copies here of the pre-starts from only a matter of day's ago where we have had items that were whited out when - workers were presented with a situation that was mentioned in the pre-start, they raised a concern in regards to whether or not it was okay for a certain situation to be taking place, they listed it down on their pre-start sheet as was the workplace health and safety system that management had agreed to take on board to move forward. I have got copies here and you can even see where the comments that have been written on the pre-start sheet have been whited out so that they would not be passed on through to the minutes of the workplace health and safety meetings.

PN82

I have a number of more, I have 11 pages approximately of issues that I am sure that I have not covered - - -

PN83

THE COMMISSIONER: We are up to page 211 then I think. Yes, thank you for that. Yes Mr Webb?

PN84

MR WEBB: Thanks Commissioner. I suppose it is out of sheer frustration that we are here today, Commissioner, obviously at any stage like this we would like to be able to work through a site and manage these issues. We have on many other sites, current sites in other areas, we are working through issues where safety is raised and we always seem to find and work our way through the process and come up with an amicable result which provides a safe working environment.

PN85

It is out of sheer frustrations being well articulated obviously, there has been comments whether this is industrial issue or an Occupational Health and Safety issue. The sheer presence and the conviction of the workforce here today, they make their own way in here to be a part of these proceedings to hear what is going on and try and work through this process.

PN86

I go to Mr Gittus's comment earlier on, we do not see it the blokes are on strike, the blokes out of sheer frustration - it was also mentioned that last Wednesday was if you like the straw that broke the camel's back. I have seen the camel's back break on this site probably about three or four times, which is a grave concern. But through the effort of the OH&S reps and the elected representatives on site, we have been able to try and work through the process, work with the company to try and address these concerns.

PN87

It has been well articulated on numerous occasions delegates have shown their conviction, whether it be delegates in regards to Occupation Health and Safety or from the respective unions in trying to work through with the company. Several proposals have been put to the company, to the company's credit they have adopted several of those proposals and we have got agreement to put them into place. But it has been lacklustre in actually putting the action behind those proposals.

PN88

We are a firm believer every problem will have a solution. There is a solution to this and hopefully with the Commission's assistance today, we will be able to get that and actually get this job back on track because the workforce has made it quite clear to us, they are committed to this job, they want to get the job completed, they are there to earn a wage, they do not want to be tied up in Occupational Health and Safety issues. Probably to the extent, Commissioner, it has been articulated as I have stated, these workers have worked this industry for many years, what it is, we have installed upon our members of the respective unions over the last ten years, safety is paramount on site. Safety is non-questionable, it is number one priority.

PN89

To that end the workers have taken up the challenge, they police safety on site. They do not take shortcuts. If anything they have now got a higher standard with regards to safety on site and that is obviously what has caused the situation here. Where they see inconsistencies and issues not being addressed when they have been other sites where these issues have been addressed and have been fixed up, the frustration factor creeps in.

PN90

In fact, Commissioner, there has been some I believe, some 170 items, documented through the Occupational Health and Safety Committee in regards to issues of concern from the blokes on the shop floor.

PN91

To the credit of the Committee, around about 95 per cent of those issues have been addressed, but I have got to say it has been through a very hard line approach and a very persistent approach from the workers representative trying to drive that process and get it through.

PN92

In saying that also, Commissioner, the company has picked up, and we have tried to work to move these issues forward. Obviously we are still in a situation at the moment where there is a feeling from the workforce on the shop floor, because several months over 170 odd items which probably - I would not say is unheard of in this day and age, it does happen - the frustration has crept in with the workforce, they say, "Oh what is going to be next?"

PN93

There has been a lot of issues raised in regards to those committee meetings and different things and I wish to touch on them quite shortly. But I have got to say the company has through many of the discussions committed to take on processes, committed to address issues and for whatever reasons have not been able to do that. And simply not even get back to the workforce and report back to the workforce, "We have not got a result or that issue fixed up at the moment", it is left to fester. I have seen this site and I too along with Mr Hicks have been on the site since day one, we are slowly seeing if you like, Commissioner, a festering boil and it is slowly been festering away and it has now got to a stage where it has been popped and that we are at a situation where we have got to try and resolve and move this forward.

The representatives on site, Commissioner, have - I have got to say my personal opinion - shown great leadership amongst the workforce in regards to offering solution, obviously with the time and the commitment in regards to resolving these issues, and they have become frustrated. To the extent this week where two of the Occupational Health and Safety Representatives actually resigned for differing reasons.

PN94

What it was at the start there has been a little bit of chopping and changing of the representation on site, and that some of our previous delegates who are on the committee decided to stand down and make sure there was a clear delineation between industrial and occupational health and safety. We made sure that we got good people and articulate people on the committee to try and work through this process.

PN95

And as I stated, recently two of them have resigned. There was numerous reasons that they have articulated to us why they have resigned and I suppose I could sum it up as it was out of sheer frustration they felt to a large degree they were being dictated to, the company was listening to their issues, not really addressing their issues. They have got a major responsibility, it goes without saying delegates and Occupational Health And Safety Reps do not get paid on site. They do it out of passion and conviction to make sure they can look after their fellow worker, and they take a lot of hard yards and they have got to take it up in regards to the company, they have got to talk to the blokes to work these issues through. It is a thankless job but these blokes need conviction to try and work through this process. Obviously the frustration has set in with a few and they decided to resign.

PN96

That also sends concerns amongst the rest of the workforce, if we have got Occupational Health and Safety Reps resigning, what is wrong with the Committee? Why would these blokes be needing to resign. So that is also added to the frustration.

PN97

Some of the key points, Commissioner, and I do not want to labour on them because they have been mentioned before, but not all of them. I have seen when we have tried to work with the company, the lack of communication and by the company's own admissions, they recognise at their supervisory level there was a lack of communication, there was a breakdown. By their own admissions.

PN98

What it is in regards to Senior Management, a lot of the issues that were getting raised from the shop floor, which immediately should, especially safety issues, should be addressed by frontline supervisors, get immediate result or if not get immediate report back to the workers on the issue raised. But the communications factor seemed to breakdown a fair bit and there is numerous documentation between all of the people in front of you here today to actually support that.

PN99

The other one was in regards to the reporting back. There has been numerous times where there has been incidences on site, what it is it goes without saying, you try to report that information back, give people a bit of a dialogue, it does not have to be War and Peace, but just to let people know on site there was an incident in such an area, this is what had happened, this is what the company has done to address the issue just to appease the blokes. These blokes work with each other, they have concerns about each other, but just that reporting back seemed to - did not hit the mark.

PN100

The company in regards to making commitments, the company through these Occupational Health and Safety pre-start meetings would make commitments that, "Right-o we see your issues we will address it". But very little or no action in some cases and that obviously - and it goes without saying, I have had many a people myself, Commissioner, come up with an issue which I have thought personally it is not a big issue, I do not know what you are worried about. But to me it might not be a big issue to me, but to that individual it may be a major issue and for that not to be addressed obviously will put that person off side.

PN101

As I said, the singling out of employees, Commissioner, now I do not know if there was any malice in this but the workforce there is a perception of there was a bit of malice, when the individual at some of the pre-starts or the major pre-starts would raise an issue with regards to safety, his particular supervisor would shut him down, "Mate I will come and catch up with you later on, do not worry about that, do no raise that here". And then take them off. Which could be seen - I am not saying because I do not think it was intended as any form of coercion, but obviously, Commissioner, those sort of things concern the workers when they are hopping up, raising a legitimate concern which they believe needs to be addressed and to be shut down in a forum such as that, I think we have all got to be concerned with.

PN102

Just in regards to the point which was not raised, and it was probably the biggest concern I had, to Downer's credit they have put in a lot of procedures as Mr Hicks has said, which are working and starting to run through. But one that I was gobsmacked with, they have got a small card, Commissioner, I think it is a safety incidents report card or something like that. The blue card. Which they install upon their workforce, to go out there if you see an incident or an issue, fill out this, it can be anonymous or you can sign off on it, put it into the box and get it so it can be addressed.

PN103

The last meeting that I addressed on site, Commissioner, which was some two week's ago, at the tail end of that meeting, because it was a hot meeting and it took a fair bit in regards with the workforce to try and seek some resolve and we thought we had a resolve. I brought up an issue at the tail end of that meeting about these cards, I asked the workforce and somewhat 200 workers at this meeting, "How many workers have seen these safety report cards?" I have got say, and it was quite disappointing and quite concerning, that ten per cent of the workforce actually raised up and put their hand up and said they actually knew what it was about.

PN104

Apparently it is now a policy, during their inductions and through their supervisors, for it to be installed upon those workers, "If you see a safety incident or a breach or a concern, to fill out these cards". What I found out subsequently after that meeting, numerous employees came and spoke to me and said they did not even know what the card was. They were not informed about it at the induction or the pre-start. So again, Commissioner, that goes to the I suppose the snowballing effect where we are now.

PN105

Again, Downer, through their own company policy and procedures have pre-start meetings, which is supposed to address, when they sign on to their jobs, their supervisors are to let them know what the work schedules are for the day, making sure they get their ATW cards, their permits, get everything line, everything running up. But it is also there as an opportunity for the workers to raise any issues they may have in regards to the way the site is running or concerns or OH&S issues.

PN106

Another thing that will come out from those mass meetings, Commissioner, was actually demonstrated to us, whereas some supervisors were conducting it in some of those meetings, pre-start meetings, were running quite well. And blokes have said, "No, my supervisor, everything is running Mickey Mouse, everything has been right". But what concerned me, you would have to say 80 per cent of those pre-start meetings were not happening at all, it was virtually where the supervisor would go out just get the blokes to sign on to the job sheet, sign on for the day and out they would go. That created a major concern because the blokes saw if that was the attitude by a supervisor, their direct superior on a job, what does that install back on the workers? There was four major safety incidents, Commissioner, which involved supervisors. I do not want to go into particular detail but I could supply the particular detail of supervisors who are supposed to be providing some form of leadership on this job to their workforce, and they have the respect of their peers, four major instances which could have resulted in some serious injury or even loss of life. And I do not say that lightly, Commissioner.

PN107

Some of these instances, it was just lucky it was nipped in the bud at the time, could have had much more drastic sort of circumstances or outcomes come out of that. It has been a situation, Commissioner, it has been frustrating, not only for the workforce, we know the company is frustrated trying to fix this process. We have organisers to the respective unions a very frustrated with the process. Knowing that we can go on sites, I deal a lot with construction industry and a lot of them are workshops, I can go on the site because of what processes and mechanisms are in place so we do not have these dramas. It is frustrating for us to not be able to find a solution for this.

PN108

Commissioner, it is the opinion of the AMWU, and it is only here and obviously through dialogue, that something has to be done. I think a new face is needed somewhere within that management structure, obviously in the safety area would be good, a new face as leader, it is not about giving anyone the bullet, not trying to move anyone one, but a new face in there because obviously some of the comments made here today, there is no confidence with the particular safety officers we have got in place there now. A new face would be welcomed, I believe from the AMWU, to get in there and drive this process home. To start to fix these problems and earn the respect of the workforce back. I see that as one solution we could probably look at.

PN109

One other area, Commissioner, I think we should be looking at is some sort of compulsory hearing maybe in a week or two week's time where you yourself can monitor this process and see whether whatever comes out of today that we can come back here in a week or two week's time to have an update and monitor the process. Without saying too, Commissioner, if a major incident did occur then we could seek your assistance at an earlier possible time.

PN110

It is too often you hear it out there, Commissioner, and it has been a big call from the Trade Union for a long time of safety on site, and as I have said we have installed it upon our workers out there. What we have always said is, "Safety is paramount". Unfortunately we have seen on too many occasions workers losing life or having serious injury before a company or an association or whatever, will actually stand up and say, "Hang on, we have got this wrong". Fortunately we have not got to a situation like that on this particular site. We do not want to get to a situation like that on site, and I believe the company does not want to get to a situation like that, that is why we want to work with the company to try and resolve these issues.

PN111

It has been frustration to get where we are, and that is where we are at. And Commissioner, I too the same as Mr Hicks, I would like to hand over to Bob Holt, which is our senior delegate on site, Bob has had a firsthand experience through these discussions and through these negotiations. Bob has been there for the majority of the site. I think it is important that you hear a firsthand account of what has actually been happening on site. Thank you Commissioner.

PN112

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Holt?

PN113

MR HOLT: Commissioner, if it please the Commission, I thank you for this opportunity to address you on behalf of the workers. I was the AMWU delegate who Mr Gittus said chaired a meeting on Wednesday when the AMWU went out on strike. I disagree with his statement that we went out on strike, I as the chairman and the delegate at that meeting, had very real fear and concern for my members because of health and safety at the time. They were at an impasse, where they felt confident working on that site. But I do not deny we withdrew our labour that day, we met again the following morning, we convinced the people to come back onto the site where they are now, other than the people that are in this room here listening to this Commission. They are available for work, they are not on strike, that is an opinion where I disagree with Downer Management.

PN114

Also I would like to state that I have been the delegate on site since I have been on the project, I have also been a OH&S representative. During these times when I needed dialogue with Downer Management, I went to the Project Manager I think his title is, Graeme Gilshenan. I have had an amiable relationship with Graeme, in his time constraints he has always been approachable to me and others I feel. I feel if he had have had more time or if he maybe had more help from his managers or his superiors, maybe we would not be here today. But that is just a personal opinion.

PN115

We have been talking about Downer Management here today, I do not want to seem from my point of view that I am here sticking it to this man who has made himself available to me and who has worked with me. But everything my brothers and my peers have said at this table this morning, I too have paperwork and documentation, we would be here for hours. But all I am going to say more, and I do have minutes from the meeting that Mr Gittus stated where we pulled our labour. But some weeks ago, or some time ago, we were in a similar situation, we have been in this situation often. I cannot believe it, I have worked in remote situations, I have been in fly in fly out jobs, I have been on sites with 1600 people, I have never in my experience, I do not think, spent as much time as my brother delegate here said, needing communication with management to help - I do not know the choice of word, govern or keep a smooth site. It is unbelievable.

PN116

THE COMMISSIONER: Why do you think that is Mr Holt? Why do you think you and the other delegates have had to put so much time - - -

PN117

MR HOLT: Commissioner, as I just stated, I personally believe that the man who has maybe been at the head for the Downer company on this site, has had pressing issues, he is there to manage a job, he has been available to us for discussion and somewhere under him between him and us people they have employed - one of the Downer ….. is if you have got a concern or part of the disputes procedure or whatever you want to call it, you approach your supervisor. It is the first step.

PN118

Well sir, four of the major incidents we have got records of concern supervisors. There has been one broken bone on this site through misuse of incorrect scaffold. That is no downturn on the professional scaffolders, it was not modified by the scaffold crew, but anyway, it is something missing from the manager to the employee. They have got the tools, they have got the purse string or what have you, to make these blokes feel happy or secure. Who cares about happiness in as much as we are selling our labour to try and earn an honest living. We want to do that and we are available to do that now, but sir, other than that, to answer your questions, we would need more time than I think you have got available for this.

PN119

THE COMMISSIONER: Who is the Safety Manager now?

PN120

MR HOLT: Sorry?

PN121

THE COMMISSIONER: What is the name of the Safety Manager? Is there someone who has the title I understand it, Safety Manager?

PN122

MR HOLT: Yes, Phil Colbourne, it is not him I am talking to, sir. I go straight to Graeme Gilshenan who I think his title is Project Manager. And as I say, I have an amiable relationship with him. But I do feel the man has a, and this is just a personal feeling, he has got a lot of other problems. But I would just like to read this statement, this is something I presented to Downer on behalf of the AMWU and I think at the time the site, and this is some time ago. This has been coming for a while and I have given this to Downer.

PN123

I asked Downer Management to consider proper planning and procedure rather than rushing to make up for lost time. This should happen at all times, be rational, stay rational not emotional. Accidents are a culmination of unplanned events or occurrences, often this is human error, I hope the humanity on this job cares about us all as or are we not all part of the same construction team.

PN124

Now that was a passionate statement or request I gave to the Project Manager on this site some time ago, because we have seen where it is going. It is going off the rails. But anyway, once again I am afraid that is just a personal statement, but as I say I am a delegate and I listen to a lot of concerns and I am surprised because of the size of the workforce, the scope of the job, I have never seen this on giant jobs.

PN125

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you for that.

PN126

MR HOLT: Thank you, sir, I am sorry.

PN127

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Gittus?

PN128

MR GITTUS: Thank you, Commissioner, I would just like to put a couple of things into perspective. We have heard today a number of issues outlined by the unions and their delegates, some of those are correct some of some of those are incorrect and I am not going to go into those individually. I am happy to do that with the unions at another time. But the one thing that is very clear to me, listening to it, is that there is a perception by our workforce that the site is not safe. I should also add, Commissioner, that the perception is not the reality. We currently have 200 plus people on site, we have had two medical treatment injuries over a hundred thousand man hours of work. I am a firm believer that one injury is one too many, injuries do happen and they happen for a number of reason and we are not here today to talk about that. But the perception that our site is unsafe is just clearly - that is not backed up by reality.

PN129

THE COMMISSIONER: Is it not backed up, if as the examples indicated, matters are raised either with supervisors or the pre-start meetings or at the safety Committee or some combination thereof, and if there is not - assuming the matter is of some relative and greater seriousness and thus urgency, is there not then some basis in what you describe as a perception, to suggest that supervisors are not responding positively, to do anything about fixing the problem or reporting back that look the matter will be addressed in some sort of time frame. And if issues have been on the table for months, doesn't that say to you that someone is not listening or responding? And the response may not always be an agreement, I am not saying that. But if there are relatively serious safety issues they must surely warrant management's urgent attention.

PN130

MR GITTUS: I would agree, Commissioner, and that has happened. Just to give you some examples the 170 odd items documented by the Health and Safety Committee, many of those items are repeats and they are responded to. We now have a procedure in place with our pre-starts that with issues are logged they are not dealt with at the pre-start, they come to a central point and we have an action list which is documented, allocated to people for action and reported back at the next pre-start.

PN131

THE COMMISSIONER: Do all the employees know about this then?

PN132

MR GITTUS: Well if they are not I would be very surprised because it happens at their pre-start meetings. We have the action list and they go out with the pre-start sheets to the supervisors.

PN133

THE COMMISSIONER: And you are confident that all the supervisors are following that?

PN134

MR GITTUS: The procedure we have in place there, Commissioner, is that two or three senior managers will be moving around from pre-start to pre-start. We recently changed our pre-start procedure where we used to have everyone on site at the one pre-start. And as our site numbers grew they just become unwieldy so we have now broken it down into individual work teams.

PN135

THE COMMISSIONER: So how many roughly would you have?

PN136

MR GITTUS: How many work teams? Ten? 15 to 20, Commissioner. We do give all the supervisors a sheet with all the issues to be discussed, the supervisors have a meeting with our Construction Manager prior to the pre-start, and then they go out there and deliver. Now I cannot say that every supervisor delivers everything exactly the same, and obviously if you have got 15 supervisors some are going to do it better than others. I have no doubt about that.

PN137

MR CANDELORO: Can I make a comment?

PN138

THE COMMISSIONER: If you would like to stand up.

PN139

MR CANDELORO: I am sorry. If in fact some of the supervisors are not doing it well enough then we are more than committed to hear that and to do something about it, there is no question of that.

PN140

THE COMMISSIONER: What about the alleged comments made by some of the Health and Safety Officers or managers, as their titles may be?

PN141

MR CANDELORO: Well I mean there was one comment made that there is an outstanding issue since May, I would really like to know what that issue is. Because I find that very difficult to believe.

PN142

THE COMMISSIONER: Can anyone assist with the details?

PN143

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, if I may, if the Commission pleases, I think the issue might have been raised by myself dealing with the material safety data sheet for the Chartec, Commissioner.

PN144

MR CANDELORO: All right, if I can respond to that. The Chartec is a material made up of two epoxies, a part A and a part B.

PN145

MR BROANDA: Well with respect, Commissioner, I mean unless this gentleman is going to present some sort of evidence that he has some sort of qualification in this material, he is not able to present the information that is obtainable through a material safety data sheet. Now if he has the knowledge of what that sheet contains he would need to present the sheet to the Commission or to the workers. I mean we are not in position equally, to contradict anything that he might say about what this chemical is. We just do not know. Short of presenting something to the Commission to show he is qualified with this material.

PN146

THE COMMISSIONER: What is the problem in - I do not want to know what it is made up of.

PN147

MR CANDELORO: No.

PN148

THE COMMISSIONER: I am not a scientist either, but what I do understand is that there would normally be hard factual data available.

PN149

MR CANDELORO: And we have provided that, sir.

PN150

THE COMMISSIONER: You have provided that?

PN151

MR CANDELORO: Yes, that is what - the claim was that we have not provided an MSDS, what I am standing here at the table with my hand on my heart is we have provided the MSDSs.

PN152

THE COMMISSIONER: Who to?

PN153

MR CANDELORO: Well to the members of the committee and they are available in our MSDS file.

PN154

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, sorry, can I just to add Commissioner, I am just instructed now that that was provided this morning.

PN155

MR CANDELORO: No, it was provided a long time ago.

PN156

MR BROANDA: Half the crew this morning, Commissioner.

PN157

MR HICKS: Commissioner, if I may, I apologise, but to try and get some clarity in this issue, the issue about Chartec obviously was about material safety data sheets and information regarding that Chartec. I have got a memo here that is dated 25 August, okay, and this is the information that the workers have been requesting for some considerable time now. And even to date, Commissioner, only have approximately 50 per cent of the workforce on site which is involved with this chemical, have actually received this information. I represent the CEPU, we have got 26 workers out there, a number of our workers have come in contact with this material and they still have not received this information. At the pre-start this morning this was given to some of the mechanical people. So this was 25 August, we are just going through the minutes now to actually find out the exact date that the request was made for information on this product.

PN158

The other disturbing part I will raise about it, Commissioner, I am no technical expert on this but I can certainly tell you that the melting point of metal is far greater than 1050 degrees, because some qualified tradespeople have given me that information. And this information talks about Chartec being heated to a temperature of 1050 degrees, when these people are welding or cutting it is going to reach higher levels than that. And this has got some very serious implications in regards to the chemical substances that are contained in it and it is very disturbing to find that even after a considerable period of time, Downer have just produced this information surprisingly it is on 25 August, and the fact that even through this information here, people are still being requested to use this compound on site and the severe impacts of this possible chemical and the chemical components that are associated with it I do not think have been fully described and articulated to the workforce.

PN159

So once again, I strongly believe this demonstrates the arrogance and the incompetence of the management at Downer to fully inform and keep the workers safe on this site.

PN160

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, I do not want to get into details, I do not want to get into he said she said, I can tell you - - -

PN161

THE COMMISSIONER: I understand you are not wanting to go into detail, but I trust you understand as well that if what has been presented on the face of it is the full sort of information in terms of what has or has not been given, or when it was given. It does not sound good to me on the face of it, I mean I am not going to go in and do a detailed analysis at this stage, but again as you know from your past experience, if there is a perception, normally there is something then genuinely lingering at least in the background that caused it. I appreciate you can say what the safety incident numbers and reports and that indicate, but that does not necessarily mean that people are responding, from management, in an appropriate manner to genuine safety concerns.

PN162

I do not in any way condone, and I am sure others in this room have seen incidents where people have tried to use it and they have not been true genuine safety, but these sort of matters that have been raised this morning, do not smell of that. They smell like they are genuine and if there is a perception there, don't you as management then need to do something about it, by reflecting through the actions of the supervisors and safety officers, what your policies - and there does not seem to be any criticism of your policies, and you seem to have the procedures - the complaint appears to be in terms of the practice. The implementation and the enforcement of those policies.

PN163

MR GITTUS: I would agree with you there, Commissioner. That is what the allegations that have been are, I can also say that a lot of those allegations are not accurate, no issues have been responded to. Sometimes the employees come back wanting further information and that is quite legitimate and we have gone and got further information. But to say that you know there is 200 outstanding action items is just completely inaccurate. Those have been responded to.

PN164

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I do not think majority of people have indicated that.

PN165

MR WEBB: Commissioner, I have got to clarify, I actually gave the company a bit of credit, out of those 170 odd items, as I said, 95 per cent have been fixed up by work through the OH&S Committee.

PN166

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN167

MR WEBB: There is no way in the world there is 200 outstanding.

PN168

THE COMMISSIONER: No I did notice what you said, thank you.

PN169

MR GITTUS: What I would like to say, Commissioner, is that you know, from Downer Management perspective safety is paramount. We have got a big site if there are issues which there will be from time to time, we want those raised through the appropriate channels, if people are not getting their desired results from those channels they should be raised through to the Project Manager and they will be addressed. Graeme Gilshenan is a man of his word and he is committed to addressing issues, and there have been a number of processes on the site in the last couple of weeks that would reflect that.

PN170

THE COMMISSIONER: What about with your safety officers or managers, whatever their titles may be? Why would they not attend the safety committee meetings?

PN171

MR CANDELORO: Well actually I have been to two safety committee - sorry I made the same mistake. I have been to two safety committee meetings myself and with representatives from the safety advisors that we employed. So that is proof that they do attend the meetings.

PN172

MR HURLEY: If I can just speak briefly, Commissioner, I am part of the safety committee and I have been there since February and we have had frequent meetings and hardly ever has the safety officer from Downer been present. It is only just lately that he has been.

PN173

MR HICKS: Commissioner, just to further add to that, I mean if necessary we have got every single safety meeting their records and the minutes of those, and just the first one I grabbed just to confirm what Mr Hurley is saying, you look at who is in attendance and you look who the apologies are and Phil Colbourne, for whatever reasons on this particular date, 19 May, was not present. But there is a historical gathering of information here that suggests quite clearly Phil Colbourne who is the Workplace Health and Safety Officer on the site, has not been present at these. I just want to quickly just touch on some quick points that Mr Gittus has raised, I do not think Downer has still digested this problem.

PN174

MR GITTUS: Mr Hicks, I have not finished my submission yet.

PN175

MR HICKS: I just need to quickly add on this, sorry, I do not think they have digested the problem because it is once again I get back to the fact it is not about their policies and procedures. It is not about that, and they keep saying to us their safety policies and procedures in place are in tact. No one has ever disputed that, no one has ever disputed the fact most of these policies and procedures or a small portion of them at least, have been altered and changed by the safety committees and that sort of stuff on site. No one is arguing about that.

PN176

I still do not think they get the guts of this problem. The problem is the way they manage those policies and procedures and we keep getting back to the fact no worker has unilaterally stated the whole site is unsafe, we have not said that at all. No one is refused unilaterally to go back to work. What we have said to them is we have got no confidence in the way they have developed this structure and who is managing our safety on site. If you can fix that problem and you can instil the confidence back in the workers they will be back out there. But I still do not think they understand the importance of this. They keep saying about policies and procedures, policies and procedures. Step away from the policies and procedures for a minute and have a look at the heart of the problem. The heart of the problem is their management structure and who is looking after the safety of workers.

PN177

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gittus, in terms of issues like how often Mr Colbourne does or does not attend safety meetings, I mean they are simple issues of fact. I know you have only been on site for a short time, but I would have thought one of the tasks of perhaps you or perhaps some offsider or someone ….. is to have a look at those sort of minutes, have a look at the issues that have been raised, have a look at who is there. I mean it is crucial, I do not have to tell you, if there is a safety officer, that they be involved in safety meetings and actively pursuing things and not making any sort of comments that reflect in any way either a disinterest or a lack of preparedness to pursue genuine safety issues.

PN178

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, I said to the unions the other day that if they have got issues they should log them with us and we will address them. Now if that is one of their issues, I would like them to log it with us and which they have through these proceedings and we will address it. To say that there is - - -

PN179

THE COMMISSIONER: Well I would have thought there has been quite a lot raised at this hearing that you and your management colleagues need to consider. And the suggestion was made by one of the organisers, I think it was Mr Webb, yes. He made a number of comments about monitoring the process including if it is necessary, if there are ongoing problems including involving the Commission over one to week period, that sounds like a good idea to me.

PN180

In terms of his other suggestion about the possibility, as he put it, of a new face, and he was not suggesting that anyone currently involved get the flick. As I understood him. But to perhaps inject perhaps through the safety committee some increased interest in their activity. I do not know whether you or other members of management should have a fresh look at who is there and decide whether or not it does need some fresh or new or additional resource.

PN181

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, we will take that away and have a closer look at it. I just reiterate that we are committed to having a safe worksite, we believe we have a safe worksite. Perception says differently, we are prepared to work with the unions and the safety Committee and the delegate structures to overcome any concerns they may have.

PN182

THE COMMISSIONER: Is it desirable in the short term at least, whilst delegates have obviously been doing a good job, or the delegates or Health And Safety Reps perhaps I should say, have been doing their jobs I can see it, on the safety committee. Is it worthwhile in the short term having some assistance from the organisers until at least you are sure the process, as you described it Mr Webb, is at least bedded down over the next couple of weeks.

PN183

MR WEBB: I actually agree, Commissioner, and it has actually been probably well documented between the respective unions here today, we have played a very active role, some of the points Mr Gittus brought up before in regards to the action plan, that was virtually from the safety Committee after discussions, "What can we do to fix the problem in regards to having ….. . We have been quite actively involved in the site, not only in regards to - and I must say this, the workforce have a commitment to the job, but the unions have a commitment to the job also. We want to see these things prosper and make sure that people get well looked after and paid and have a safe work environment.

PN184

So that is already there, I can only speak on behalf of the AMWU, I would play whatever active role I can as a state official, but I have got to say this, in saying this sorry, I have got the fullest confidence in our local representation, but if it was to lend assistance, I would have no problem - - -

PN185

THE COMMISSIONER: I certainly was not going to say that, as I say, in fact I think the delegates have been doing the job, there was certainly not any indication from me that they are not up to the job. But I just think while things are the way they are, at least in the short term, having some - again, new face even from your point of view, or additional resources, is probably not a bad idea. But it is a matter for the individual unions.

PN186

MR WEBB: Far be it from us as workers to dictate to the company how to run their business, we are too smart to actually come here for that. We are not here to dictate, we have given what we believe is a logical solution, obviously there is a stigma now over the job, I cannot articulate any better than Mr Hicks did before in regards to getting the hands around the grass root problem of this issue. The policies, all those sort of things as Mr Hicks has said, are there, it is about the management of the actual system. And probably in support of Mr Holt's comments too, Graeme Gilshenan, he is the man on the job, I have got to say personally I have never had to deal that much with the General Manager of the site on these particular issues. He is normally away from that, his job is to manage the site not get caught up in the OH&S stuff, the industrial stuff and all these sort of things.

PN187

So I probably concur with what Bob said, there should be people there specifically looking after the safety aspect of the job, the IR aspects of the job. Those things need to be - and look, Mr Hicks in his statement also, having a look at the management structure, now the company, we are not going to tell the company how to suck eggs, but we are asking them to consider, maybe they should look at their management structure and maybe bolster it with a couple of eggs. It is not about getting anyone the bullet, sending anyone down the road or anything like that. Bolster their numbers, obviously the size of the job, it has got a lot larger than some people have expected, I believe, and I think some extra people in there, and key people who have got industry experience, would be invaluable in regards to resolving this dispute and starting to rebuild the confidence factor back with the workforce.

PN188

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Yes Mr Gittus?

PN189

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, when we spoke with the unions the other day we said that we would like them to detail what their issues are so that we can address them and our management remains to committed to doing that. We have certainly heard some of the concerns today, some of them are new to me, but I am also told that some of these issues that were raised have been closed down and some of them are not a hundred per cent accurate either.

PN190

THE COMMISSIONER: But that is why, isn't it, the reason why delegates and perhaps officials, organisers, whatever the position, the unions if they wish to be involved at this stage, that everyone has made the point that a process needs to be set up to address the issues. You have said the company is prepared to work with that. So from your point of view, equally, you need your appropriate people, including your safety person, presumably yourself and whoever else you deem is appropriate to get in there, the list exists obviously, or the documentation exists from the unions, it obviously needs to be culled I suspect in terms of what issues have been settled and what have not. So literally a list then developed of what is still outstanding and then a time frame which those issues then can be addressed so as the men can be assured that the matters will be looked at and there will be a response and it will be within reasonable time. Is that not what - - -

PN191

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, we are comfortable with that and we already have a process in place that does address that, so I welcome any input that the men on the floor, the delegates or the officials have, with what the issues are. But to withdraw labour without going through that process first, leaves us not knowing what the real issues were. Because clearly on Wednesday that was not articulated to us when people went out the gate.

PN192

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, I am also instructed that that has already been raised at least three times with senior executive. Now this might be to Mr Gittus's - well I want to say credit, but I do not know that credit is the right word, but in his defence, this may have occurred prior to him coming to site. But my instructions are at least three times these issues have been raised with senior executives with the company.

PN193

MR GITTUS: Look Commissioner, I do not want to get into a he said she said, because I do not think that is going to help anyone.

PN194

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I think you have really got to agree a process. So Mr Broanda in terms of what I have outlined and Mr Hicks, is the process we have discussed, is that acceptable to the unions and thus or do you want a chance to have a talk to the employees yourselves before you respond, so as we do have some clear understanding and a basis then for a resumption of work.

PN195

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, on the face of it the AWU would support the position you put forward, being that we would have an organiser or at least one maybe two organisers assist the delegates on the part of the AWU. We would welcome the opportunity of a report back before the Commission, as currently constituted, within a one to two week period. I say that somewhat hesitantly, Commissioner, I would welcome the opportunity of a perhaps a ten minute recess so that the organiser at least at the AWU and the delegates present may have an opportunity to speak to the membership and just confirm with the membership that is here that that is acceptable to the guys on site. May it please.

PN196

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hicks?

PN197

MR HICKS: Commissioner, if I could, if it is acceptable to the Commission, that we do have a ten minute break, there is a couple of things that I think may help assist in moving this problem forward. One is, Commissioner, these forms that have been filled in, I can supply them to the Commission, the workers have requested because they have signed them, that they only go to the Department of Workplace Health and Safety and yourself and they are not for the viewing of the employer obviously because there is some confidential information in there.

PN198

MR GITTUS: Excuse me, Commissioner, I have got to take exception to that. If we are here to fix up an issue, we have got to know what the issue is. You know, we are here to bring this forward, we are not here to put more stones on the road. What I would invite you to do is raise those with us, whatever those issues are, and we will address them.

PN199

MR HICKS: Commissioner, if I may finish. The reason why I have raised this with you is because this morning you have been told quite clearly that there have been submissions made by the employees about it. These are official documentations which have been submitted to Workplace Health and Safety, a part of the process to move forward is I would suggest quite strongly, that I have already asked Workplace Health and Safety to become involved in this process, simply because we believe there has been a significant number of breaches of the Act and also they offer some very good assistance and support when it comes to consultative networks and frameworks and all that sort of stuff.

PN200

You have heard today, Commissioner, from a number of submissions that employees have resigned from the committee and people feel threatened on the committee because they feel they are being dictated to. If an independent person such as an inspector from the Department could become involved, sit at the committee meetings, he may pick up things like the Workplace Health and Safety Officer not being on there. He might be able to put a framework in place that will be able to assist and further strengthen the safety committee's roles on the site and obviously indicate to management and be able to assist management in resolving these things.

PN201

The other thing, Commissioner, I am very strong about the fact that I think like Mr Webb has said, there needs to be a change of face, I will go even one step further than that, I think predominantly from the comments that have been made and from the information that has been handed to me on sites, I think there is a time and a change where obviously we need more competent, responsible Workplace Health And Safety Officers on this site. Because clearly it is going to be hard for us to go back on site and demonstrate to the workers that there has been an acceptance from management that there needs to be some structural change. I keep getting back to this point, I do not think they have digested the fact that this is the real core of the problem and if we go back to the site and we do have a process in place where we can demonstrate to the workers that this is the best way of moving forward and trying to achieve some confidence and saying, "Look quite clearly part of your problems have been that middle management, so to speak, where issues have not been addressed, processes have not been followed, they have not been enforced, they have not been monitored".

PN202

If we can get some assistance from the company in actually I do not know what you like to say, push them sideways and bring some new people in, or bring someone in who is going to particularly monitor this situation, even if it is only for a one month or three month period, to get it back on track, but to instil the confidence back in these workers because it is going to be a very difficult job for us to go back out on the site and say, "We have been to the Commission, we have raised some submissions, we believe that the best way forward is to get the assistance of the company to put people in key positions because safety is the most important factor on the job. We have asked the Department of Workplace Health and Safety to come on board and give us some consultative frameworks, plus they have got the ability to audit, obviously, these incident notification forms."

PN203

And at the same time we can sit down with the company and we can move through these issues and we can develop this framework with the process of the organisers, the delegates and the safety committee involved and we can move forward. But if the company struggle to recognise that is the core of the problem, then we still have a significant problem. If they recognise the core of the problem then I think that is the biggest hurdle to overcome. Once the company recognises that core problem, then we can develop a procedure and a strategy to move forward.

PN204

So before we obviously on the acceptance of the Commission, before we take a break that is what I thought I would like to add, Commissioner.

PN205

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Gittus's point is valid, that if there are concerns, then unless they are communicated to management by this new procedure or process, then you clearly then cannot expect something to be done. So if, whilst I am happy accept copies of those, whilst you may not want individuals perhaps identified at least in the first instance to the company, but the company does need sufficient detail to be able to investigate complaints of incidents or issues that have arisen in order to be able to respond. So I would not want you to be in any doubt that is in my opinion a reasonable and necessary part of the process to move forward.

PN206

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, if I may just interject just very quickly, I think there is a distinction to be drawn. I do not think that - and I do not want to speak on part of Mr Hicks, but perhaps just to clarify - I think the issue might be that the unions collectively are happy to articulate the issues to the company, I think it is just a case of these particular documents that have identifying details of the members that are raising them.

PN207

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I understand that, I understand that. That is why I was saying in the first instance you can just go through them, address them in meetings without necessarily identifying who, but sometimes depending upon the nature of the incident, it may be hard to be able to investigate it seriously unless you know unfortunately sometimes who is involved. But I am certainly not wanting to put any employee in a position where they feel then in any way sort of intimidated or concerned at loss of their confidential complaint that they have made.

PN208

MR HICKS: Commissioner, if I may add, the reason why I pointed out quite clearly that we have notified the Department is simply because in any process obviously workers are entitled to follow a course of action which best fits the remedy for the problem. We have said it all here today, over a seven month period, we have done the right thing, we have followed a process, we have raised issues with the company, we have followed a consultative framework, we have tried to do the best thing and move things forward. The whole crux of this matter is the ability of the management to fix these issues and that is what we keep getting back to, this core problem. The workers have lost the confidence in the management to ably and competently fix these issues.

PN209

Now whilst we can raise these issues with them, that is the reason why we have taken it to the Department because maybe someone independent, like yourself Commissioner, that is why we are here today, and also the Department of Workplace Health and Safety, may have the ability and competency to fix these issues. And that is why they took a resounding decision to fill these incident notification forms in, they are a government form which are filled in, they have added appropriate detail on the back. So obviously that is the core of the problem, that is what we keep getting back to. They have lost the confidence of these people so they have sought the assistance of not only the Commission but also the Department of Workplace Health and Safety to remedy and rectify these issues.

PN210

To say that they have not had the opportunity to fix these issues, to say that they do not know about these issues, then I suggest quite strongly they need to go back and look through their safety committee meetings minutes, to all the things that are document, they talked today about 170 items, 30 of them are still outstanding. All right, those things are on the notice board, people see them day in day out. We have got plenty of records here, we have got the pre-start stuff where these are documents where at the suggestion of the union officials and the safety committee and delegates put information on here, when that gets presented to the principal contractor or others it gets whited out. So you can understand the frustration and lack of confidence.

PN211

THE COMMISSIONER: Well that particular matter should be investigated Mr Gittus.

PN212

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, we will investigate that, but there is a picture being painted that is not completely correct. And today I did not come here wanting to - we want a resolution of the dispute, we want people back at work, we want a process where we can move forward. We are prepared, Downer Engineering Management, I have got the two Senior Managers here with me, are prepared to move this matter forward. I do not think it is going to help anyone by he said she said and those type of allegations.

PN213

Now I could respond to each one of the allegations made today, because some of them are just incorrect, but I am not going to. I am certainly happy to do that with the unions and their delegates in a smaller forum. What I am prepared to say is we want to move this forward, we want to get people back to work, we want to get them back to work pronto. The management here are committed to move this forward, we are prepared to do it with the delegates, the unions, the safety committee. But to say that there is 200 odd items that are outstanding is just nonsense because it is just a nonsense.

PN214

THE COMMISSIONER: I will adjourn briefly, let my associate know when you are ready to resume.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [12.03PM]
<RESUMED [12.51PM]

PN215

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes Mr Broanda or Mr Webb?

PN216

MR WEBB: Thank you, Commissioner, and thank you for the adjournment to allow us to confer amongst the different unions but also to seek a bit of guidance from the workers that are represented here today. It goes without saying, Commissioner, what it is and that was all it was today in regards to the workers here, is a form of guidance because any decision obviously we would have to take back to the other workers who are still currently on site.

PN217

Commissioner, what it was, during the break we had some deliberation to try - and obviously we have heard the issues, we have worked through the process and now I think it is imperative that we now take the steps forward in regards to resolving this. I have no doubt with some of the comments made to me today from management and also previous, that I do believe that they are committed to resolving this issue, they do believe it is in the best interest to try and get these issues and get things fixed up. What we would like to do is put a proposal, if you like, to the company for their consideration. We would also take this proposal back to the workforce for commitment and also, if you like, validations from the workforce.

PN218

That proposal would virtually be for the company to look at employing a new Safety Manager on site, that that new Safety Manager would virtually work through the process, his number one job would be to address the issues that are still outstanding and also to continue to manage any further issues that may occur on site. We recognise, Commissioner, and it has been a big call from the Trade Union Movement, there is massive skill shortage out there, not only within the blue collar workforce but also in the white collar workforce. It may take some time for the company to find a suitable applicant to fulfil that role.

PN219

What the suggestion would be is that if the company could go out there and seek to employ someone along those lines, maybe whether a senior manager with an appropriate qualifications from Downer, could fill in for that role in the meantime, to immediately implement a process and start working through the issue. Maybe through dialogue with the principal contractor on site there might be someone suitably employed with the principal contractor on site, which could lend assistance in regards to moving this process forward.

PN220

The other would be of course, Commissioner, that what we would seek, and it was mentioned earlier on, that there would be a report back in the Commission, within say ten days.

PN221

THE COMMISSIONER: You can take that will be 2 pm on 5 September Mr Webb.

PN222

MR WEBB: Yes. Notwithstanding that, if something major did occur on site and it was to cause some major concern to the workforce, that we could bring that on earlier if need be.

PN223

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that is agreed.

PN224

MR WEBB: But in a way of a solution and allowing us to move forward and put that line in the sand, take all the I suppose, reservations and concerns, I think we all need to take a step forward and for us to be allowed to be able to do that I think if the company could give us some form of a commitment along those lines, I think it would go a long way in building that trust factor back within the workforce and rebuilding and stipulating the confidence back in the workforce so we can get along and build this project. I will just leave my comments at that Commissioner.

PN225

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks Mr Webb. Yes Mr Broanda?

PN226

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, I should just state for the record that those comments are supported by at least the AWU. I think both unions though.

PN227

MR HICKS: Yes, Commissioner, just quickly we do support the comments and the proposal by the AMWU, one thing we did fail to portray across that in regards to the Safety Manager, I guess we would seek that he be able to fully function correctly and be able to report to obviously some senior management off site instead of reporting to the on site Project Manager to actually report to someone off site. So that way it is quite clear that he has full control over safety on that particular site.

PN228

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Yes Mr Gittus?

PN229

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, we are heartened by the proposal that the unions have put to us today and I think there is a lot of room for us to move this issue forward to a speedy resolution for everyone because I know the men want to get back to work, and I know we want them to get back to work.

PN230

I am instructed that the company will look to beef up the safety area with the infusion of a Senior Safety Specialist. But as Mr Webb mentioned they are not out there hanging on trees, it is going to take time for us to be able to source the appropriate person. But we can in the interim beef it up with some senior management from other areas of the company to assist.

PN231

We are certainly happy to work under the direction of the Commission and come back and give the Commission a report in two week's time. We do have a fundamental issue that we feel needs to be logged that when issues are raised we still encourage our workforce to raise it through their supervisors, because we think that is the most appropriate ….. for the issue to be solved. Obviously if people are not getting the joy there, well there will be other areas too to raise those concerns.

PN232

But we would support that proposal, Commissioner, on the basis that the unions and the men recommend an immediate return to work. Just taking on Mr Hicks's comment, Mr Gilshenan is the Project Manager on site and all people report through to him and any new safety person would report through to him as well.

PN233

MR CANDELORO: I would be happy, Commissioner, as Graeme's manager for that person to have the indirect reporting function to me. But he would report directly to Graeme.

PN234

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. I think that 5 September, report back at 2 o'clock, we might do that in a conference rather than formal hearing. That way we can get down to the nitty gritty because I will be wanting to hear what has happened or what is happening and what if any issues are still outstanding and what the programme is to deal with those. I think that would be easier done by conference rather than formal hearing.

PN235

I take it then in terms of the union advocates you will be talking now with your men and getting back to site and talking to the people back on the site.

PN236

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, I would say at least from the AWU perspective, I suspect from the others as well, that senior officials, the organisers and above will accompany the workers back to the worksite immediately following these proceedings, put the position to the remainder of the workforce that is still on site there what has been discussed today and given a favourable position on the part of the union and those members that have been here and witnessed the proceedings and seen the movement that has been given.

PN237

MR WEBB: Commissioner, I think with sheerly ….. it may be a concern that I think the finishing time that whether we can actually get the whole workforce might be an area of concern, but we will just have to wait and see how we go, what time we finish up here. The comment coming back from the company firstly in regards to pre-starts and working through from the AMWU's perspective we fully support in regards to the pre-start meetings and it will go through the appropriate channels, through supervisors, through the appropriate channels which it has been proposed that it has been put in place, but also of course at any time we reserve our right and our members' right that if they feel the process is still not active or actioning any issues or concerns that they have, to take it through the appropriate channels also.

PN238

Just on the tail point from the company, the situation regards to the reporting, it was suggested, and this is not to be a slur on management, a Project Manager, what it is to allow the process to go forward, no doubt I understand in any organisation including the AMWU there is hierarchy and there is reporting. I just think at the end of the day that not only does it go to Graeme I think it should be a situation might go higher and obviously with the commitments made by core Senior Management here today, that should probably stand in regards to resolving the issue. But obviously without saying that I have to go back to the workforce and put that to them.

PN239

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN240

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, could I just add one thing, sorry before the ETU arises, the AWU additionally would support the Commissioner's earlier comments about investigating that incident where the item was raised and then liquid papered out, from the AWU's perspective that is just disgusting that an incident could be raised and then whited out. The AWU would certainly support as a matter that is linked to this clearly, but to sit in there on its own in and of its own, why an incident that was raised would be somehow by someone whited over so that it is - whatever the position is.

PN241

THE COMMISSIONER: I certainly expect to hear back.

PN242

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, rather than get into the detail of those things today, I think it is appropriate to raise those on site and we will address those on site.

PN243

MR BROANDA: I was not suggesting that it would be raised today, Commissioner, but at least by the report back I think we should be in a position to know what happened there.

PN244

THE COMMISSIONER: I will certainly be wanting to hear from you. Yes Mr Hicks?

PN245

MR HICKS: Thanks Commissioner. Commissioner, a couple of things for the record quite clearly, the CEPU is not in a position to accept the company's position in regards to reporting. We believe it needs to be quite clear, part of this process is instilling the confidence back in the workers on this site and particularly the CEPU because that is who I represent. To give it some transparency and to give it some clarity, I believe strongly that the Safety Manager needs the ability to control the safety on the site, obviously with the assistance of the Project Manager, but by reporting directly to the Project Manager then some of the issues and some of the resolutions may be able to be stifled on site.

PN246

By allowing the Safety Manager to control safety and report directly to Senior Management off site in regards to getting issues rectified, I think that is going to assist a lot further. In the future, there may be a process where they can have a look at their hierarchy control and under the guidance of Graeme Gilshenan, the Safety Manager may be put in place, but to allow for a period of time at least to instil the confidence back in these workers, I think we need some assurety about that.

PN247

MR CANDELORO: May I just say Mr Commissioner, our current policy and Safety Management Plan does allow for that and maybe I will be happy to show you that later on Mr Hicks, where our Safety Management Plan allows a Safety Manager on site to report to the Corporate Safety Manager in Salisbury.

PN248

THE COMMISSIONER: As well as the site people.

PN249

MR CANDELORO: That is right.

PN250

MR HICKS: Okay. That is fine, I was not aware of that situation, the way the discussion was going from the employers it sounded like they wanted him to report directly to the Project Manager, so I am comfortable with that process. Just also, Commissioner, being mindful of time, the employees are on a 36 hour week out there, their time to finish their duties will be at 1.27, so even if we can contact them by telephone and that sort of stuff I think it is unlikely that there will be a normal resumption to work today. The earliest I guess that we could possibly hope for in respect of my membership that I represent would be Monday morning.

PN251

They have taken a decision today that they choose not to work Saturday, I am not trying to inflame the situation but they took that decision this morning. And I am just allowing the management to know that so it is no surprise if they unexpectedly do not get that written to them. I am unsure of what the other unions have done in regards to theirs, but certainly I am happy to promote this and move it forward and relay that back to my membership certainly on Monday morning, Commissioner.

PN252

THE COMMISSIONER: Well if they are still on site and they do not finish until 1.27 why couldn't they wait until you get there?

PN253

MR HICKS: Commissioner, I can certainly try and get a message out to them, certainly.

PN254

THE COMMISSIONER: I think that would be appropriate.

PN255

MR GITTUS: Commissioner, we would appreciate if the unions through could you know follow that up. There is a nightshift tonight and we would be very keen for that nightshift to work. Work is also available tomorrow morning for the six hours and we would be also keen for that shift to be available for those that who are available to work.

PN256

MR BROANDA: Commissioner, I think collectively from the unions we will do everything that we can.

PN257

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks Mr Broanda, I accept the undertakings from the unions. We will adjourn now and I suggest you get back to site as quickly as you can. Commission is adjourned.

<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [1.04PM]