C2005/1808, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 2298 (7 November 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 13272-1

COMMISSIONER FOGGO

C2005/1808 C2005/1909

COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
AND
AUSTRALIA POST AUSTRALIA POST AUSTRALIA POST
s.170LW - Application for settlement of dispute (certification of agreement)
(C2005/1808)

MELBOURNE

10.35AM, FRIDAY, 21 OCTOBER 2005

Continued from 10/10/2005

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Are there any changes in appearances?

PN2

MR T JACOBS: I seek leave to appear for the respondent.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Doyle, what is your view in relation to leave?

PN4

MS J DOYLE: Commissioner, I think that I would like to reject it on the basis that, as you well know, I have never appeared in an arbitration before and I'm qualified as a postie rather than legally and I believe that Australia Post have other resources that they could be putting the case with.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Doyle, I think you downplay your qualifications somewhat. However, on what basis do you seek leave, given that this matter has been before the Commission, as currently constituted, on many occasions and Australia Post is well served by a vast array of industrial relations experts.

PN6

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, on this basis. There is an issue from the orders that the union seeks. Commissioner, amongst other things, they would seek some broad consultative orders which we say are unrelated to Bayswater and raise an issue of the Commission's jurisdiction. So that's one matter, Commissioner, just in due course I want to make some submissions on and also, Commissioner, there would be some cross-examination, in particular of Mr Henley, the organiser, that I would want to conduct if leave were granted. That's really necessary just to flesh out some of the issues and, Commissioner, if leave were granted I would want to highlight in due course, in both the evidence and the submissions, just what the key documents are. I'm in a position to do that today and in those circumstances, I respectfully ask that leave be granted.

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm inclined not to grant leave on the basis that - - -

PN8

MR JACOBS: Well, perhaps - - -

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, just let me finish first.

PN10

MR JACOBS: Yes, Commissioner.

PN11

THE COMMISSIONER: On the basis that Australia Post has had its own IR HR people previously involved. However, I am going to grant leave, given that I am going to take you on your word that your presence in these matters will assist in a speedy resolution of them, if you like; or at least in terms of precipitating a way in which we can move quickly through the vast array of material which has been presented to the Commission, pursuant to the directions which were issued.

PN12

MR JACOBS: Yes.

PN13

THE COMMISSIONER: But can I say that I put Australia Post on notice in relation to further proceedings. What has tipped my decision in favour of granting you leave is the issue you raise regarding the current EBA6 and the extent to which the orders which are sought by the union exceed the jurisdiction of the Commission and/or give a meaning to the clauses in the EBA, which Australia Post does not believe can be found in such clauses. But I do put Australia Post on notice that in future I may take a different view.

PN14

MR JACOBS: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. If the Commission pleases.

PN15

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Doyle?

PN16

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, I had the belief that this would be a fairly simple matter to do with the Bayswater job and therefore have not provided counsel for the union and if this is going to be precedent setting about the consultation clauses, which will affect the whole union, I'm sure that my other state counterparts and the Federal office of the union would be quite distressed that I'm defending the consultation clauses here by myself. So I'm wondering, Commissioner, is there some way that we can defend our rights into the future by seeking counsel on the consultation issue?

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I'm loath to defer this matter any further. What I intend to do is proceed to hear the witnesses and for the parties to, certainly not go through the submissions, because obviously the reason why submissions have been lodged is to speed up the process rather than lengthen it. But Ms Doyle, later in the proceedings I will provide you with an opportunity to advise me whether there are any issues on which you will seek that the union provide additional advice. Ms Doyle?

PN18

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, I'll keep our submissions brief because you have heard a lot of the matter before. The nub of the matter is to do with clause 3 and clause 6.3 and clause 6.4, about effectively and efficiently and I draw your attention to the fact that this is a different clause than was in EBA5 which we have provided in earlier material. I also submit that the clause quite deliberately does not have an additional word, "more" or "most" and alternatively we would also submit that the abolition of a full time job involve some very poor work practices that breach award conditions. So put simply, we are saying that we believe that a full time job can be effectively and efficiently retained at Bayswater Transport hub; and the fact that one has been abolished has led to some breaches of award conditions.

PN19

We are saying that the work practices that have arisen at Bayswater do not align, as claimed by Australia Post, as complying with clause 6.1, that provides for a fair and reasonable utilisation of overtime and extended hours for business fluctuations above the required staff establishment levels. It has always been held that about 10 per cent is what is a reasonable amount. In fact recently you heard, Commissioner, that Dandenong Letter Centre felt that 6 per cent was reasonable. We have got some authorities regarding terms like reasonable - not reasonable but predictable, regular and predictable, and we would say to the Commission that you should take Mr Henley's evidence into account in that he also raises clause 6-20 which states:

PN20

Australia Post acknowledges that the rostered hours of part-time staff should match the underlying ordinary hours of the position that is hours worked on a regular predictable basis in a manner consistent with the relevant award hours of duty provision.

PN21

Clause 6 was very carefully crafted during EBA negotiations and its intent is that wherever a full time job can be provided, it should be and where it's not possible, there's a permanent part-time job and that the hours of those part-time jobs should match the reality. Our claim really rests on an examination of 8 months of time sheets at this hub and we would submit that any fair examination of these establishes that a period of a mere two hours 21 minutes can be permanently attached to one of the part-time positions, one of the 5-hour part-time positions.

PN22

When you have a look at these timesheets between February and March 2005 and then again April and October 2005 - and those periods just relate to when the organisers were able to do a visit - you will see that an average of between 16 and 19 hours a day are being worked as non-rostered or additional hours. Those hours are very extensive, regular, predictable and in very strange combinations. We are submitting that our proposals, which we started off proposing that a full time relief position should be provided and that that would be able to reduce some of these additional hours. We would draw your attention to the fact that the work at the hub goes between 4.30 am and 8.20 pm, so to expect part-time people to be covering leave of that range is quite unreasonable.

PN23

This was rejected out of hand by Australia Post, even though the current relief ratios are not being met at the facility and you will recall, Commissioner, that they did agree to a relief position at Mt Waverley. When that wasn't acceptable we then looked at the 5-hour positions and we were trying to attach 2 hours 21 minutes to those positions and the two obvious positions were there is a wine run that has extensive additional hours that vary slightly on a day-to-day basis. But we suggest that there be non time-sensitive work attached to the end of that job; and so there are customers who get several pickups in the day who don't really mind what time they get the pickup.

PN24

Mr Henley will give evidence about two post officers who actually have taken - they used to get pickups at this precise time but Australia Post has now moved their pickups to a later time and they are quite distressed about that. Similarly, that wasn't acceptable to Australia Post. They didn't really even try to timetable it or trial it. We put forward another alternative which is the Array job, which starts in the afternoon at which we were suggesting this same sort of work could be done the couple of hours before he starts work.

PN25

The orders that we are seeking are before you and we would just like to emphasise that this is very important for the people who work in Australia Post because quite clearly Australia Post's approach has been to take the full time jobs and try to take work off them and instead to add part-time positions into the mix. We believe that the EBA clause requires Australia Post that full time jobs are preferred and only abolished when there is a genuine need, when there is no way they can be done efficiently or effectively and it's also important to enforce that rostered hours match the underlying hours that are actually worked. If Post is permitted to proceed in this manner through all the full time jobs in hubs, it will give rise to some very unsound work practices, which we will take you through when the witnesses give evidence.

PN26

In regard to consultation, we do have a strong difference with Australia Post on this. From the very beginning we have been saying this is a very complex matter because you are packaging up many, many discrete collections and deliveries in relation to geographical proximities; they have to be taken into account and different times have to be taken into account, when people want their collections or their deliveries. We were just told back when this whole matter first started that, "We're abolishing one full time and one part-time job". This does not comply with meaningful consultation.

PN27

In our EBA we actually refer to the Vodafone case with Commissioner Smith, where it's quite clear that meaningful consultation is what is required, not perfunctory advice on what is going to happen. The union office was only given the new duty boards 2 days after the changes were implemented and the meaningful consultation that has taken place has been forced by the fact that we sought the assistance of the Commission. We believe it's quite clear that Australia Post is going to continue to abolish full time jobs in the hubs by moving work from the full time jobs into part-time positions and we believe it's in everyone's interest to operationalise how the consultation process on this will be conducted. Otherwise our only alternative will be to force meaningful consultation - will be to keep coming back to the Commission.

PN28

We contend this is not beyond the jurisdiction of the Commission and I rely on my written submissions in this regard. This dispute was never only about one Bayswater position. It has always been about the lack of consultation and the orders we seek do not add additional consultative obligations but simply put flesh on the bones and we rely on our written submissions about the Commission's powers and also on the very lengthy history of the Commission organising processes between Australia Post and the CEPU. You could go to almost any matter before Commissioner Blair to see that that's the truth of the matter and I would refer the Commissioner in particular to clause 3.2 in the EBA, which refers to Commissioner Smith's decision.

PN29

Lastly, I would just like to raise the impact on employees being harsh, unjust or unreasonable which is one of the matters that the Commission needs to take into account. We have, as a union, put it to our part-time members, "Do they want additional ad hoc hours or do they want the opportunity of getting full time work into the future?" Obviously only one person can be appointed to a full time position and it's been unanimous - and in fact during the EBA discussions this was one of the very important issues that the membership had in their surveys and in the various advisory groups that were set up to guide the union through the process, and that was that they wanted protection for full time jobs wherever possible and also that they believed the conditions being put around additional hours had to be reasonable. When you have a look, we take you through the additional hours that these part-time staff are working at Bayswater; you will see that they don't comply with the award and we believe they don't comply with the meaning of the EBA clauses.

PN30

So Commissioner, I would like to rely on these authorities; the National Union of Storeworkers, Packers, Rubber and Allied Workers v Petroleum Refineries Australia C32726 (1990) and that's PR J8976 and also Transport Workers Union of Australia v Cootes Holding C2004/76 and PR 947986 and finally, Robert Albert Halliday-Hughes v AAT Kings Tours, AS 55 (1993). Perhaps if I make copies available it may be the easiest.

PN31

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN32

MS DOYLE: Thank you.

PN33

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. What do you want to say in opening, Mr Jacobs?

PN34

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, I'm in your hands. If you would like an opening, I can give you one but I had anticipated that you are well on notice about the issue.

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN36

MR JACOBS: If you are content, Commissioner, I'm just content to put the matters to the witnesses and then go from there.

PN37

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Let me just say, though, that my little exercise of speed reading this morning perhaps could have been handled better, not by me but by Australia Post in that I did not receive the documentation until this morning.

PN38

MR JACOBS: I see, Commissioner.

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: That was why there was a delay of half an hour this morning, while I had a chance to go through them.

PN40

MR JACOBS: I see, Commissioner. Well, I think it was filed at about 4 o'clock yesterday but there might have been some mishap in terms of the documents coming to you. But I will endeavour, as I said at the outset, to flesh out the issues for you and highlight the key matters during the running.

PN41

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. We will call your first witness,
Ms Doyle?

PN42

MS DOYLE: Yes, Brendan Henley.

PN43

THE COMMISSIONER: I am going to mark the submissions from the CEPU.

EXHIBIT #D4 SUBMISSIONS FROM THE CEPU

PN44

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

<BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY, SWORN [10.57AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOYLE

PN45

MS DOYLE: Mr Henley, can you state - you can sit down. Can you state your name and address for the record?---Brendan Michael Henley, (address supplied).

PN46

Have you prepared a witness statement?---Yes, I have.

PN47

Do you have a copy of that statement?---Yes, I do.

PN48

Is this statement dated 21 October 2005 and it consists of 36 paragraphs and 12 exhibits?---Yes, I do[sic].

PN49

Is this statement true and correct and is there anything that you would like to revise in that statement?---I would like to revise paragraphs 17 and 30.

PN50

31?---I beg your pardon?

PN51

What paragraph?--- 17.

PN52

Yes?---And 30, 31.

PN53

Commissioner, I should apologise for the typing. We had to type this submission ourselves and we didn't do a very good job and when we proofread it again we had to make some amendments. But if I could pass up a new page 12, I think that will help. That's the clause 17 Mr Henley is referring to.

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment. Yes, and you did advise us of that, thank you.

PN55

MS DOYLE: When we go through the evidence it will become clear what the change is.

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN57

MS DOYLE: It's just a matter of someone typed in the wrong figure or added up the wrong figure.

PN58

Mr Henley, can you explain the difference for clause 31; what you want to amend in clause 31?---Is that 31?

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN59

31.

PN60

THE COMMISSIONER: Or 30, was it?

PN61

MS DOYLE: 31?---31, that's - I have down here that I had Mr Graham Spencer, who was employed for 5 hours permanent - 5 permanent hours per day. I have since found out that it's originally a 4-hour permanent part-time position.

PN62

THE COMMISSIONER: So it changes from the five to four?---Four, yes, Commissioner.

PN63

MS DOYLE: Why did you think it was five?---Going - when I was doing the wages and timesheet inspections it was down as five hour blocks.

PN64

Okay, thank you. I understand you would like to add another exhibit?---Yes, I would. It would be a statement from the Kilsyth LPO in regards to a quote for additional pickups to be done.

PN65

Why are you tendering that now?---The proprietor of the LPO just sent it over. I got it just a day or two ago from the proprietor.

PN66

I think, Commissioner, we couldn't do the time and wages inspection until the Thursday before the Friday we had to put in the submissions so it's been a bit of a rush job.

PN67

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Just a moment, before you go on. The easiest way to deal with this, as it is marked at the top, is that that becomes BH13 attached to Mr Henley's statement.

PN68

MS DOYLE: Mr Henley, with these additions and corrections, is this statement true and correct in your belief?---In my belief it is, yes.

PN69

THE COMMISSIONER: You are tendering the statement and the exhibits?

PN70

MS DOYLE: Yes.

EXHIBIT #D5 STATEMENT OF BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY WITH ATTACHMENTS DATED 21/10/2005

PN71

MS DOYLE: Mr Henley, I would like to take you to paragraph 5 which relates to clause 6.3; what's your understanding of that clause?---I haven't got that.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN72

It's page 10, before the numbers start?---Okay. I have it now, thanks.

PN73

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley, you will have to speak up a little bit. I cannot hear you?---Yes, I'm sorry.

PN74

That is not as an amplifier. It is for recording purposes so it is not going to assist?---Yes, Commissioner. My belief in the clause 5 - paragraph 5, is that the preferred option - Australia Post's preferred option is that it recognises the value of full time permanent employment.

PN75

MS DOYLE: Right, and you were around during negotiations for EBA6?---Yes, I was.

PN76

Do you remember this clause being debated and what the negotiators and members thought about this clause?---During the EBA6 negotiations the negotiators and the members, in discussing this clause and looking back on the previous EBA that we had, this clause had - gave them more, sort of, like security of the permanent full time employment within Australia Post and therefore they agreed that this clause be placed into our EBA6; that it gave them a bit more of a , you know, confidence that there is going to be full time permanent work in their future.

PN77

I would like to take you to your paragraph number 8 where you talk about clause 6-20. Do you want to tell us your understanding of that clause?---My understanding of that clause 6-20 is that Australia Post so acknowledges that the rostered hours of the part-time staff should match the underlying ordinary hours of the position, whereas the hours worked on a regular basis, four hour or five hour permanent part-time positions, that you know - - -

PN78

Right. Perhaps if we could just hear your opinions on the lack of consultation or otherwise regarding this Bayswater position; do you feel the consultation was adequate?---No. The consultation process in regards to the Bayswater position was not fully - the union and the members were not fully consulted in the way that they wanted to change the positions out there at Bayswater. The union was only given a very short period of time and notice of the changes that were to happen out at Bayswater and that the full consultation process, even in our EBA, was not fully adhered to. It was just, "This is what we're doing. This is going to take effect in 4 or 5 days" and that was the lack[sic] of the consultation.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN79

Would you like to explain what proposals the union put up as a way of retaining a full time position at Bayswater?---Yes, the union put up proposals at the - for the retention of the position at Bayswater. We put proposals forward that we added work onto a wine run that they had in the morning, to put additional pickups, drop-offs onto that 5-hour position. We also made submissions that we could extend the forklift driver's position to give him - him or her added work for pickups.

PN80

Okay. Just on that issue, I would like to take you to two of your exhibits. One is from exhibit 4, colour tab 4, and this is a letter from Bayswater Village Post Office?---Yes. I - both - I attended the Bayswater Village Post Office that - on Wednesday of last week. A week prior to that I spoke to the proprietor of the Bayswater LPO in regards - - -

PN81

Why did you contact them?---Because they' there's meaningful work - you know, they used to have pickups at - between 12 and 1 pm in the afternoon and I had since - I had found out that those pickups for the Bayswater LPO and the Kilsyth LPO had been taken off the full time position and put onto a permanent part-time position for a later pickup in the afternoon.

PN82

Would you like to explain why they want an earlier pickup?---Both Bayswater Village Post Office and the Kilsyth Licensed Post Office, they have not got the room or the storage capacity in their shops. They get a fair volume of mail from, say, 12 o'clock onwards and that they would like to go back to their normal, you know, 12.30, 1 o'clock pickup because they have not got the storage space and the volume of the parcels and that, that are there.

PN83

Where is the storage that they do put the volumes that they get before 2 o'clock?
---At the Bayswater Village Post Office it's just behind the main counter at the front - more or less back of the shop and there is only about 2 foot between where the counter ends and where they store their mail and parcels to be picked up and behind that is just a little alcove, which has also got an array so they set up and sort mail and parcels in the bags as well, plus a Colby - it's a wheel device that they put the parcels in so the driver can take it out. There's just no room in that area for when they get busy and it encroaches - pardon me - it encroaches onto the counter area and to the doorway that leads from the counter out to the front door; which also poses a health and safety risk.

PN84

What's the situation at Kilsyth?---Kilsyth LPO, they've only got a very limited storage space out in the back room up there. They've got a box room out the back as well. I spoke to the proprietor at Kilsyth and she explained to me that they used to have a 12 o'clock pickup and another one later on in the afternoon at 5 o'clock and now that they've cut it back to 2.30, 3 o'clock, they just haven't got the room to - to, you know, store stuff in there.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN85

If I could take you to your exhibit 2, this is the - well, could you tell us what it is?
---Exhibit 2. Excuse me.

PN86

It's the coloured page 2?---I see. Sorry. The exhibit on coloured page 2 is a duty board from the Bayswater Transport Hub.

PN87

That's commonly known as the wine run, is it?---Yes, that is. Yes.

PN88

You have provided an exhibit, the next exhibit 3, which talks about Mr Dezioba is the person who normally does this run?---Yes, that's true.

PN89

Could you explain what the additional hours over this 8-month period relate to?
---On that particular duty, the driver starts at 7 am until 11 am. It's a 4-hour part-time position but the - over the period from 8 February 05 right through until 19 - no, 12/10/05, this particular duty has had, you know, additional hours on every one of those dates that I have marked down there in my exhibit.

PN90

Right, so the proposal for adding these pickups to this wine run; do you believe that that would allow a 7 hour 21 position to be created?---Yes. If - with this wine run and the additional hours that are continuously being worked on this wine run, if we, like, gave them the two LPO pickups which would be tacked onto the completion of that first bit, have a lunch break and then do the two LPO pickups, therefore it could become a 7 hour 21 full time position.

PN91

THE COMMISSIONER: So just let me clarify this. You are saying that the current wine run is a 4-hour permanent part-time position?--- Yes, Commissioner.

PN92

If the pickups for Kilsyth and Bayswater LPOs were added to this, that that would constitute a permanent full time position?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN93

Yes?---With the - this duty finishes at 11 am and with the additional hours that the person has been working over those 7 months or so, that if he got back to the depot - as you can see through the figures that he gets back 11 - between 11, 12.30. If he had his meal break even at 12 to 12.30, then he could go to Kilsyth and Bayswater LPO, do those pickups and get back by 2.30 pm and sign off on a full time position.

PN94

I am sorry to interrupt you, I just want to clarify this point. With the people who currently do pickups for Kilsyth and Bayswater LPOs, would they have sufficient in their position to maintain permanent full time or part-time positions?
---Commissioner, when they - the two LPOs in question, they were on a full time position which they took off and placed onto a part-time position and I - if I can recall, I think those part-time position that got those[sic], got an extra half hour or 45 minutes added to his job. So they've taken off 2 and a half hours off one position and gave, I think it was about 45 minutes or so, I'm not clear on that time.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN95

To permanent part-time?---To a permanent part-time position. Yes.

PN96

MS DOYLE: Mr Henley, I think we will take you to your evidence soon about what you believe about whether the part-time positions are adequately timed?
---Yes.

PN97

But to continue, am I right in thinking that the same jobs could be put at the beginning of the Array positions; do you want to tell us what time the Array position operates?---I think the Array position, just from memory, I think it's from approximately - - -

PN98

I think 20 - - -?---Please, just one moment, please. I'm trying to find my notes. The forklift position, I think it starts at 2.30 pm.

PN99

THE COMMISSIONER: Which paragraph are we looking at?

PN100

MS DOYLE: 21?---Sorry, Commissioner.

PN101

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?---Yes, 14, 15 - 2.15 pm until 7.15 pm. If the LPOs of Bayswater and Kilsyth were placed in the front of that position, so that that driver - the Array person started his job at, say, 12 pm, prepared his vehicle then went out and done the Kilsyth and Bayswater LPOs, by the time he loaded, got back to the Bayswater hub, unloaded; then there would be time for him to have a small meal - a meal break and then start his other position or have his meal break a bit later in his other position.

PN102

MS DOYLE: Mr Henley, I would also take you to paragraphs 16 and 17 where you explain about relievers within transport, within the hub network; it's fairly mystifying for outsiders, can you explain those two paragraphs?---Paragraph 16 on relieving position, we relieve - we have two types of relieving positions. We have the annual leave relief positions, which cover people that are going on annual leave and then we have a TO position, which is a position that - comes under transport orders; where that person covers ad hoc pickups, deliveries, and may be used if someone has taken the day off work.

PN103

Ill, of course?---Ill, and be placed in those but traditionally the annual leave reliefs are used for holiday relief.

PN104

You say in that, that there's no leave granted in December?---That's correct.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN105

That people in hubs get 5 weeks' annual leave; why is that?---The people in the hub network, we work a 4-hour overtime run on Sundays which - we work the 10 Sundays and we get an additional one weeks' annual leave at the end of the year.

PN106

In paragraph 17, we are doing the arithmetic there; do you want to explain it for the full time drivers?---At Bayswater there are 18 full time positions, including two supervisors. There are 23 part-time staff, including two transport support officers with transport support of the people that do some of the roadwork or assist in other areas like TOs. Like, in a - the transport support work in the Array. On the assumption that there is - there are 18 drivers - 18 personnel with five weeks' leave, that's 90 weeks of full time leave to be covered and that the ALR is only available for 43 weeks. So they've only got one, which would not be able to cover the full extent of the annual leave at Bayswater.

PN107

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry, the ALR is only available for how many weeks?---43 weeks, one annual leave relief person.

PN108

MS DOYLE: There's Christmas and then they get five weeks.

PN109

THE COMMISSIONER: I have got 21.

PN110

MS DOYLE: Well, that's the typing mistake. I think we passed up another page as well.

PN111

So Mr Henley, to your knowledge is what happens is that there is one ALR and one TO and so therefore you are saying that there is one full time reliever missing in Bayswater?---Yes.

PN112

Can we move on to paragraph 18 which talks about the part-time relief?---Yes. On the assumption there of 23 part-time jobs, by 5 weeks' annual leave, 115 weeks of annual leave owed to part-time staff. It could be estimated again that in excess of four part-time relievers are required and we only have - and only one ALR and two TOs are provided for that part-time staff relief.

PN113

Am I right in suggesting or what I should say is do you believe sufficient relief staff are provided at Bayswater hub?---I - no. There is not sufficient relief staff provided at Bayswater.

PN114

Given that you have done a time and wages inspection that's covered approximately 8 months in total, is that borne out by your inspection?---Yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN115

If I could just take you now to your beliefs about the work practices at Bayswater hub. First of all, we have provided the timesheets, which are marked DH5 and is that a true and accurate record of what you discovered during your time and wages inspection?---Yes.

PN116

Perhaps I could just pass them up to you. Your exhibit 6 is a true summary of those timesheets?---Yes.

PN117

With the exception you mentioned that you had belief that - - -?---Mr G Spencer was a five hour permanent part-time, which I have since discovered that he was only a four hour part-time.

PN118

So there would be an hour extra added on to the totals, whichever day he worked?---Yes.

PN119

What do they show, if we could take you to paragraph 30 and 31 in your statement?---The wages - the timesheet inspections under paragraph 30 shows that there's been extensive additional hours worked by part-time staff. In a summary of the first period, covering a month, part-time staff of between two to seven workers, worked between 9 and 30 and three-quarter hours per day[sic] non-permanent additional hours. This was an average of 19 hours 7 minutes.

PN120

THE COMMISSIONER: Per week?

PN121

MS DOYLE: No, per day?---Per day.

PN122

THE COMMISSIONER: As a total of permanent part-timers?

PN123

MS DOYLE: Yes. Every day the part-timers were working extensive hours?
---Working extensive hours. Yes.

PN124

The second period?---And for the second period, covering almost seven months, part-time staff between one and 10 workers, worked between 1 and a quarter hours and 53 and a quarter non-permanent additional hours. This was an average of 16 hours 21 minutes.

PN125

Perhaps you should explain to the Commissioner how the jobs are rotated, or not, at a hub?---The permanent full time positions at Bayswater hub, the seven hour 21 jobs are rotate. Every fortnight they change their jobs down. But the permanent part-time positions in the morning and the afternoon are fixed jobs. They do not rotate through the daily runs.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN126

I imagine it's quite difficult to understand what's going on in a hub?---Yes.

PN127

I will bring you to the timesheets; did you find that there were people other than drivers who worked at Bayswater on those timesheets?---I found that yes, there was another driver from another facility going over to Bayswater to do additional hours.

PN128

Just one driver?---I think there's two, I do recall, I think.

PN129

So not only are the Bayswater part-timers required to do additional hours there, there were people from other hubs doing additional hours that were needed to be brought in to do the work?---Yes. Yes.

PN130

I would like to take you to paragraph 31 where I understand you looked at the hours of one particular person?---Yes. That is correct. To gain an understanding of - about what this means for the part-time staff I would like to use one employee as an example.

PN131

Is this the only person who worked these type of hours?---No, there are other - this - the particular hours that this person worked was excessive but there are other examples of people working excessive hours as well.

PN132

Right, so that's your exhibit number 8. Perhaps if we could just go to that and your evidence that's been tendered is that you believe there are some breaches of the award conditions; that's paragraph 29 that you say that. Perhaps if you could just take us through Graham Spencer's work pattern over this period of time, and again we have to keep in mind that he's a 4-hour permanent person and only has a right to 4 hours on an ongoing basis. I notice that there's Sunday work there that says 4 hours; is that overtime or ordinary hours?---No, that is overtime on Sunday. Yes. Mainly for clearing SPBs.

PN133

On how many occasions did Mr Spencer work without a 10 hour break between his shifts?---I - going through the inspections, I counted up to eight occasions that Mr Spencer did not have the required 10 hour break from ceasing duty to commencing duty the following day, on eight occasions.

PN134

I notice that your exhibit 7 lists the breaches of the award that you discovered during your time and wages inspection?---Yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN135

Could I take you to clause 21.3 - sorry, clause 21.2.3?---Yes.

PN136

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry. Where are we looking?

PN137

MS DOYLE: This is tab 7.

PN138

THE COMMISSIONER: 21.3.7 was it?

PN139

MS DOYLE: Well, it's the second one on the list.

PN140

THE COMMISSIONER: 21.2.3.

PN141

MS DOYLE: 21.2.3.

PN142

THE COMMISSIONER: I see.

PN143

MS DOYLE: Would you like to read that for us, Mr Henley?---Yes, on clause 21.2.3 of the Australia Post general conditions and award:

PN144

Hours of duty facilitative provisions that ordinary hours of duty shall be worked on an average of no more than five attendances per week over a cycle.

PN145

Could you read us clause 21.3.1?---Yes:

PN146

The ordinary hours of duty of part-time employees shall be continuous on any one day. An unpaid meal break shall not be regarded as a break in continuity of a duty.

PN147

Right, and do you believe that refers to the fact that in this industry there aren't split shifts?---Yes.

PN148

What would you regard - - -

PN149

THE COMMISSIONER: Did you say are or aren't?

PN150

MS DOYLE: Aren't. Are not.

PN151

THE COMMISSIONER: Are not.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN152

MS DOYLE: Yes. That's continuous duty.

PN153

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN154

MS DOYLE: What would you regard as being a meal break?---A meal break would be a half an hour lunch break after 5 hours continuous duty.

PN155

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to refer you to the clause in the award, 21.5, which talks about a meal break, "not less than 30 minutes nor more than 75 minutes" and it provides that people can work 5 hours but no more than 6 hours without a meal break?---Yes.

PN156

Just looking at Mr Spencer's pattern of work, what sort of hours - this is tab 8 - is he taking as a lunch break?---Going by the hours that I've encountered, he's more or less taking lunch breaks of up to 6 hours.

PN157

Perhaps I could refer you to one particular day, 27/9/05 of tab 8?---Yes. Yes.

PN158

That's a bit hard to read, could you explain what you mean there?---Yes. On 27/9/05 Mr Spencer worked his normal four hour shift then ceased duty for two and a half hours. He had a break. Then he come back and worked another two hours, then he ceased once again for three and a half hours and then came back and worked another 2 hours and on that day he worked a total of - over a period, not actually work, but over the period from start to finish it was a 14-hour day.

PN159

How many hours did he actually work in those 14 hours?---Eight.

PN160

Right?---Yes, eight hours.

PN161

If I could take you to the first column, that relates to the number of hours worked in the day; am I correct in that?---Yes.

PN162

The second column relates to the spread of how many hours those are spread over?---Yes.

PN163

So what do you find unusual about that pattern of work?---That pattern of work is - it's not sort of complying with our award and conditions of employment. That, you know, to come in and work a four or five hour position in the morning and then just sort of have an extended lunch break and then come back later in the day and work extra hours, then that sort of cuts, you know, up to 11, 12-hour days that becomes, then you need that break before you start duty the next day on the next rostered shift.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN164

On a number of occasions I see that he had a shift of actual working more than 12 hours a day so he actually worked more than a 12-hour day and then he added a number of hours of break in between after that as well?---Yes.

PN165

THE COMMISSIONER: Whereabouts is that, Ms Doyle?

PN166

MS DOYLE: There are a number of occasions. I think the last page, the 14th of the 9th.

PN167

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN168

MS DOYLE: He worked 13 hours and on the 16th of the 9th, 12 hours.

PN169

So I image you looked at his weekly hours; did they exceed the 36 and three-quarter normal hours of a full time person?---Yes.

PN170

Is it common that certain part-time employees at Bayswater hub work more hours than the nominally full time people?---Yes, there are posties that - duties at Bayswater with the additional hours that the staff do work more than the 36 and three-quarter hours of a full time employee.

PN171

THE COMMISSIONER: Are they part-time employees?---They are part-time employees doing additional hours, Commissioner.

PN172

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN173

MS DOYLE: So Mr Spencer is a 20-hour a week part-time employee but has consistently, for 8 months, worked in excess of full time?---Yes.

PN174

He's not the only person I understand?---Not the only person.

PN175

Would you like to look at the timesheets and perhaps specify some other people?
---Where's my exhibit?

PN176

Or perhaps if we could refer the Commission to the summary sheets, you can see that certain names continue to crop up. But the point is, those people at any time can be reduced to their nominal hours. Mr Henley, I would like to refer you to tab 9, your exhibit 9; what is this?---The exhibit - this is an application - pardon me - application for review of hours of duty of a part-time position. The part-time employee feels that he is working, you know, excessive hours. He can therefore fill out this form to have his hours reviewed n the hope that he might be able to increase his hours to a full time position.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN177

Where does Mr Screen work?---Mr Screen is currently employed at the
Mt Waverley Transport hub.

PN178

Is he one of the people who has appeared on the Bayswater timesheets?---Yes, he has.

PN179

Is it correct to say that he worked there on 27 May, 25 July, 15 August, the
19th - - -

PN180

MR JACOBS: Just slow down. Just say them a bit slower, Jane, so we can pick them all.

PN181

MS DOYLE: Okay, 27 May, 25 July, 15 August and 19 August ?---Yes, that is correct.

PN182

Would that lead you to believe that there weren't sufficient resources at Bayswater to cover their own work?---Yes.

PN183

Could I refer you, on the timesheets, to 8 April. I don't want to make this forensic. We could go on for a number of days but just to show that it isn't only Mr Spencer. On 8 April do you see the name Ian Cloak.

PN184

THE COMMISSIONER: Let us all just locate that. Whose name was it? Mr Cloaks?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN185

MS DOYLE: I think it's the fourth page, 8 April; you have found it?---Yes.

PN186

Okay, could you say in what way is a breach of the award being indicated there?
---On 8 May Mr Cloak was doing duty 25 and the breach that I found there is that he had signed on at 12 midday, worked through till 1840 with no meal break.

PN187

Can you say whose writing that no break is in?---I'd - going by - - -

PN188

But it's not your writing?---It's not my writing.

PN189

No?---It's - I'd - it would most likely be the employee after he signed off.

PN190

That's to ensure that he could get paid all the hours he worked, rather than a lunchbreak being taken out of his pay?---Yes. That would be to alert the supervisor that he had no break.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XN MS DOYLE
PN191

Mr Henley, I'm getting towards the end. With tab 10, could you explain that table; not in any length because I'm sure Commissioner Foggo has seen this table before but just what does it indicate about the proportion of full time and part-time staff in hubs?---That document there shows that the number of full time positions in comparison to the part-time positions in the hub network is at a lower rate; that there is more part-time employees within the hub network than what there is as full time employees.

PN192

I think we can thank you for your evidence and let you go.

PN193

MR JACOBS: I'm sorry?

PN194

THE COMMISSIONER: No.

PN195

MS DOYLE: I'm sorry. I'll say that I have finished my questions.

PN196

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Doyle. Yes, Mr Jacobs.

PN197

MR JACOBS: If the Commission pleases.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JACOBS [11.42AM]

PN198

MR JACOBS: Mr Henley, you have given some evidence about Graham Spencer and the hours he has worked; why is he working those additional hours?
---Why would he be working those hours?

PN199

Why is he working those additional hours?---I suppose that he's been asked by his supervisor if he wanted to work the extra hours, because they haven't got staff to cover those positions, I presume.

PN200

Mr Henley, you well know that as Mr Spencer has said in his witness statement, he is working those hours because he is the acting afternoon shift supervisor; correct?---If Mr Spencer was working - as he said in his statement, if Mr Spencer was working all those hours because he was a acting in a PTC3, a PTC3 position, which is the afternoon supervisor, starts at midday and finishes at 8.20 or 8.30 Now, Mr Spencer is not in that position all the time. That is, he only does that position when one of the PTCs is away or on annual leave.

PN201

Yes, but Mr Henley you well know that Gerry?---Gerry Byrne.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN202

Gerry Byrne, who is the normal afternoon shift supervisor, is on a return to work program and that's hwy Graham Spencer has been regularly working extended hours in the afternoon; correct?---Mr Gerry Byrne - I do not - I don't keep a daily tab on what happens out at the Bayswater Transport hub, right? So if Mr Byrne is off on leave or is off on a return to work program or whatever, I do not get a daily report from Bayswater saying this is happening, right? I am only going by the time and the wages documents that I have seen. Yes, Mr Byrne has probably been on annual leave or whatever he's been on and Mr Spencer has stepped up into that position. But going through all the timesheets and the documents that I have here, and been presented, that Mr Spencer works excessive additional hours and not in that position of the supervisor.

PN203

Mr Henley, you are the organiser and part of your duties is keeping up to speed with what's going on at the Bayswater hub; correct?---My job as an organiser - pardon me - is to look after the conditions and the welfare of our members.

PN204

Including Bayswater hub; correct?---We have members at that facility. We look after their conditions and wellbeing in their employment.

PN205

THE COMMISSIONER: I did not hear the last thing you said?---We look after their conditions and wellbeing in their employment, our members at Bayswater.

PN206

Yes.

PN207

MR JACOBS: I'm just getting at the issue or the reason for why Spencer is working these additional hours in the afternoon. Mr Henley, you are well aware and you accept that in recent times he has been acting in the position of afternoon shift supervisor; you would accept that?---As I explained earlier, Mr - - -

PN208

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Jacobs. Is that correct; are you aware that he has been acting in that position?--- He occasionally acts in that position once the supervisor is on leave or away on whatever, but he is not a continuous PTC3 in that job.

PN209

MR JACOBS: He is acting in the job, Mr Henley?---He acts at times of the month or year or particular parts of the year, he's a acting PTC. He does higher duties.

PN210

It's apparent from your tab 6 that you have recorded him - let us just take the example of the last month or two. You have recorded the hours that Spencer has been working in the afternoon; correct?---Mr Spencer, I recorded the hours, yes. His normal shift time in the morning, whether it be his own or another one, and then I recorded the times that he has signed off in the morning and come back in the afternoon. Yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN211

Yes. So if you just go to 19 September 2005 as an example.

PN212

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry, what tab are we on?

PN213

MR JACOBS: Tab 6, Commissioner.

PN214

If you go to 19 September 2005?---19 September, yes.

PN215

You will see that you have recorded Spencer working from 4 until 8, for 4 hours; correct?---16 September.

PN216

19 September?--- 19 September, Mr Spencer, 6 am to 10 am.

PN217

Then 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock?---That is correct.

PN218

In terms of September and October, let us just take those months as an example. That's a pattern. That afternoon work in respect of Spencer is a pattern; correct? In other words he is regularly working those sorts of extended hours; do you agree with that, on your own documents?---On my documents I've got Mr Spencer working his position in the morning and then coming back in the afternoon doing four hours on certain days. There's other days where he's done more than four hours so, you know, it's not as if Mr Spencer is coming into work and signing on at 12 pm till 8.20 - 21 I think is the finish time for the supervisor.

PN219

Yes?---He is not doing that over a fairly lengthy time.

PN220

No, I'm not suggesting he is, Mr Henley. But just grapple with this; what I'm suggesting to you is that you well know that in respect of these extended hours, he's working the hours because he's acting in the position, consistently - in Gerry's absence he has - just wait. In Gerry's absence, he has consistently acted in the position of afternoon supervisor; you accept that?---Well, Mr Ralph[sic], I see that why would Australia Post - - -

PN221

THE COMMISSIONER: No, no, Mr Henley?---Sorry.

PN222

Answer the question, please?---I can't see that Mr Spencer's doing the supervisor's position.

PN223

MR JACOBS: Okay. So let me be clear about this, Mr Henley, just so we can understand your evidence?---Yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN224

Are you saying to the Commissioner that Spencer is working as an ordinary hub driver during those hours and he's not working as an acting supervisor; is that right?---What I'm saying is that Mr Spencer has worked in the morning and come back in the afternoon and unless I look at the sign-on sheets to actually see what he's actually doing, I can't say that he's - yes, he's a supervisor or no, he's a - or he's a driver. Unless I look at these particular sign-on sheets, Commissioner, which shows that what Mr Spencer is doing when he comes back to the facility.

PN225

THE COMMISSIONER: I understand the problem you have but it's a fairly simple question; were you aware that Mr Spencer has been the acting supervisor?
---I am aware that Mr Spencer is on the higher duties list, that he does do relieving work for the supervisor at Bayswater, yes.

PN226

Yes?---If that's - okay.

PN227

MR JACOBS: I just want to show you a copy of the relevant duty board in this matter. Commissioner, this is tab 6 to Mr Smith's statement.

PN228

I will provide you with a copy, Mr Henley?---Yes.

PN229

If you just go to tab 6. Don't worry about what is on the top there, Mr Henley. If you go into the folder itself. No, no, go into the folder itself?---Yes. Yes. Got you now.

PN230

Go to tab 6?---Yes.

PN231

You will see that that's the relevant duty board in question; the one for duty 7?
---Duty 7, that's correct.

PN232

You gave some evidence, Mr Henley, about alleged award breaches. Do you remember you gave some evidence about that?---Yes.

PN233

You refer to various clauses of the award and in particular you refer to Graham Spencer and allegations that in respect of Spencer, Australia Post is breaching the award. How is that relevant, Mr Henley, to whether duty 7 should be reinstated?
---The relevancy there is that at the Bayswater Transport facility there is - we've taken work off the duty 7, trying to - and then they've moved it on to part-time positions, cramming it into four or five hour jobs to abolish the or cut down the duty 7. Now, in a lot of those part-time positions today and from the conception of the hub network, those part-time positions, if they're a four or five hour job, they are jammed to the capacity. The part-time staff, they have full on work. They just barely have enough time to, you know, prepare their vehicle and out and they've got to do their pickups. With this one, they've taken off the Bayswater and the Kilsyth off duty 7, placed it onto another part-time position which they had - they acquired another part-time position at Bayswater. So, you know, what's - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN234

Now, Mr Henley, none of the work that was previously on duty board 7 has been allocated to Mr Spencer, has it?---Not to Mr Spencer, no. It's gone onto another duty.

PN235

All right. So to the extent that you are making allegations that in relation to Spencer, you said there's lunchbreak issues, there's various sorts of issues; I suggest to you that that is completely irrelevant to this dispute and it's completely unrelated to what happened to these duties on duty board 7; do you accept that?
---No. I do not, because this is about the work being taken off permanent full time jobs, trying to be manipulated into other part-time positions, right, and then discovering later that, sorry this doesn't work. Now we've got to bring in additional resources to cover the customers' pickups and the PO pickups. You know, this whole case of destroying a full time permanent position and taking that work off that, making that a five hour job, has put added pressure on the other part of the hub. Now, the part-time staff and the employees have got added pressure by doing this sort of thing, of trying to abolish full time permanent employment into part-time.

PN236

Mr Henley, just on attachment 6 to your statement, which is where you summarise the extended hours that are being worked?---Is this out of Mr - yes.

PN237

So I'm back on your statement?---Yes. Yes.

PN238

My instructions are that during the relevant period there has been a very high level of absenteeism at Bayswater hub overall, in respect of the hub drivers. What do you say about that; do you agree with that?---When I was doing my wages inspection for those months that I have placed in my statement, I was not - I was looking at the additional hours and the excessive hours being worked. Just by having a quick look perusal through these there could have been absentees and there could have been holidays or whatever.

PN239

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley?---Sorry, Commissioner.

PN240

That's an extensive amount of material?---Yes.

PN241

I do not think you could be expected to answer in the detail that you are being requested. In that documentation, if you did not go through it, looking for the level of absenteeism - - -?---No, I didn't.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN242

I think that that is probably what you should say?---I was going to but I thought I would explain a bit more.

PN243

MR JACOBS: I'm not going to go to the detail, Commissioner?---I was not looking for that.

PN244

It's just a general proposition. So just we can understand this, the proposition that there has been a high level of absenteeism; generally are you able to say anything about it or not?---I was not looking for absenteeisms, okay? I was looking at the excessive hours being worked at the Bayswater Transport hub.

PN245

Are you saying you weren't concerned or thinking about the reason for that, you were just wanting to highlight the hours in isolation; is that right?---With the absenteeism rate or whatever at the Bayswater hub, I was looking at the times and the wages to highlight that people are working excessive hours currently at the Bayswater Transport hub and this has all occurred since February of this year when they started to abolish full time positions.

PN246

But there has only been one abolished, Mr Henley, and that was vacant; correct?
---I beg your pardon?

PN247

There's only been one full time position abolished at Bayswater and that was vacant; correct?---One full time position has been made down to a part-time position. Now, if you put the work you took off that, we would have our full time position back and it would probably alleviate some of the pressure that is now on the permanent part-time staff, who have 4 and 5-hour positions at Bayswater.

PN248

In terms of - - -?---And you will find that some of this excessive hours will diminish.

PN249

Are you saying to the Commission that if one position were to be reinstated, that would have a significant impact on what you say is the pattern of extended hours?---What I'm trying to say, Commissioner, is that if we reinstate this duty 7 back to the normal 7 and 21 hour position, you would alleviate - you would at least alleviate probably one part-time position, which had been created. Since the demise of duty 7 full time job there has been a 4-hour job commissioned in there, like, through the extra work.

PN250

THE COMMISSIONER: A new position?---Yes, Commissioner.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN251

MR JACOBS: Mr Henley, you are referring there to part-time duty 30?---Yes.

PN252

Correct?---Yes.

PN253

Mr Spencer says in his evidence, and this is at paragraph 30 of his statement - you haven't got a copy. I don't think you have got a copy of this statement so we will just give you a copy of Mr Spencer's statement. Paragraph 30, if you go to that?
---Yes, I have got that.

PN254

Mr Spencer says that duty 30, which is a new part-time duty, commenced on 25 May 2005, that the person works from 2.30 pm to 6.30 pm and it was created to cover or to cater for various customer requests between those hours. So what I suggest to you is it's an unrelated issue and it's a part-time job catering for ad hoc customer requests; what do you say about that?---Well, without having - and we have requested, once this review started, copies of all relevant duty boards, new and old, and since -from 25 May, that this position was created, right, which was after duty 7, the first bit of that, was taken away; that this duty 7 - I'm not 100 per cent sure but I'm pretty sure that this duty picks up from Bayswater LPO and Kilsyth.

PN255

No. Look, in fairness to you?---No.

PN256

Just a moment. I will take you to the actual duty board which is exhibit GS6. We will give you a copy of that?---In this one?

PN257

We will just give you a copy. First of all, Mr Henley, I suggest to you that there's nothing on this duty board that was on duty board 7; do you agree with that?---I agree with that but in the beginning, as I stated earlier, that that position, duty number 30, was created.

PN258

I suggest to you and my instructions are that it was created to cater for, essentially, more or less new customers. So in other words, it was created to cater for new customers and new issues; are you able to say anything about that?---Well, at this particular point I cannot say whether they are new customers, existing customers, because I have had no correspondence or anything to say any different. Maybe some of these - I'm not saying it has, but maybe some of these customers have been taken off other runs and put onto this one. I cannot - - -

PN259

But you don't know?---No, I can't a hundred per cent agree until I see all the actual old and new duty boards, which we requested that did not come to - did not come. But this part-time 30 position wasn't there prior to when - like prior to February when all this started and I think if we go back even into last year, before this duty 7, maybe we might find that all these additional hours weren't worked.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN260

Can you just go to tab 9 of your statement?---Yes. Nine.

PN261

This is Screen's application?---Yes.

PN262

This application in its terms - and have a look through it if you need to, but this application is referring to issues at Mt Waverley and it's not at all relevant to Bayswater; correct?---It's standard hours at Mt Waverley, that is correct but he also worked at times at Bayswater.

PN263

All right, you might have just accepted this, but the issues raised in this application relate to what is happening at Mt Waverley; that's a fair proposition?
---The issues raised in Mr Screen's application for review of hours is that
Mr Screen believes that he is working considerably more hours than his employed contracted time of four or five hours, what they may be.

PN264

If you go to the last page of the attachment?---The full time standard year and hours, is that correct?

PN265

Yes?---Yes.

PN266

That's the page. That relates to what is happening at Mt Waverley; correct?
---That's from Mr Screen, yes.

PN267

You referred in your examination-in-chief to a timesheet for Mr Cloak on 8 April 2005?---Yes. Yes.

PN268

You said there was some issue about him starting at 12 and finishing at 6.40 pm, something about a meal break. Mr Henley, I suggest to you that again, that's completely unrelated to any issue to do with duty 7, it has got nothing to do with it; what do you say to that?---It has - it - this probably has some relevance. This all was not happening prior to the abolishment of part of duty 7, right? There must be some underlying reason that these people, our members and your staff, are working excessive hours - extended hours at the Bayswater Transport facility, you know, and this is all from February onwards, right? When Mr Humble, who was the then manager, started to do this hub's review, right, and all this has come about after you started, you know, reorganising, reshifting work around and the abolishment of two and a half hours off duty 7. As I stated earlier, if we went back into late last year, December - take away December for Christmas, but probably November backwards, that we probably wouldn't come across all these excessive hours that have been worked from February of this year.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN269

Mr Henley, it's to do with absenteeism and it's not because - - -?---Well - - -

PN270

Just a moment. It's not because of what happened to the duty 7 duties.

PN271

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is not a question, Mr Jacobs. It is a statement.

PN272

MR JACOBS: It's probably a matter for submissions.

PN273

THE COMMISSIONER: I think it is.

PN274

MR JACOBS: We have covered the ground, I accept, Commissioner.

PN275

Can you just turn up again the duty board for duty 7.

PN276

THE COMMISSIONER: Just while you are finding that, Mr Cloak has appeared before the Commission previously or I met him at - - -

PN277

MS DOYLE: Another one.

PN278

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN279

MS DOYLE: They are unrelated, Commissioner.

PN280

THE COMMISSIONER: They are unrelated?

PN281

MS DOYLE: Yes.

PN282

THE COMMISSIONER: It is not the Collingwood football brothers?

PN283

MR JACOBS: They are brothers.

PN284

MS DOYLE: They are brothers.

PN285

THE COMMISSIONER: They are brothers?---Yes.

PN286

Do you not find it rather frightening that I am starting to recognise employee's names from the vast thousands of employees that Australia Post has? Do you think that that indicates, perhaps, I am seeing a little bit too much of you?

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN287

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, you might be right about that and as a Collingwood supporter myself, I was a bit concerned about the reference to Cloak but I think it's a different spelling.

PN288

Mr Henley, if we can just go back to the duty board for duty 7?---Yes.

PN289

Commissioner, that's tab 6 of Mr Smith's statement. You will see between 12 and 1 the employee wasn't doing much work and I suggest to you it wasn't efficient for the employee to be working at that time; do you agree with that?---I think there's - I think I might have his - I have got the - - -

PN290

No, no, no. Just look at the duty board?---I can't - the one you - - -

PN291

Is that duty 7?---No.

PN292

That's all right. It's tab 6 to Mr Smith's statement.

PN293

THE COMMISSIONER: Does Mr Henley have that?

PN294

MR JACOBS: Yes, he does. He does have the folder, Commissioner?--- I think I just lost it.

PN295

It's in that folder?---This one? Sorry. Sorry, Commissioner.

PN296

THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right. We seem to have a forest each, before us, to wade through?---Yes. Okay.

PN297

MR JACOBS: I suggest to you that between 12 and 1 the employee wasn't doing much work and it wasn't efficient for the employee to be working at that time; do you agree with that?---No, I do not agree with that because the simple reason - and I'll explain to you why I disagree is that this duty 7 position starts at 12 pm, finishes at 1951. An employee would come in, sign on at 12 o'clock, clock on, then he would proceed to the supervisor's office, grab his keys, go out to his van, check it for oil, water, check his lights, load stock for LPOs or customers, in that preceding half an hour or so; and then he would depart the facility possibly half past 12 onwards, out to do his pickups and maybe even, you know - there are - that 1 hour is not just 1 hour of doing nothing. There is pre-checks and there is stock to be loaded and we don't want our drivers going out, you know, in unroadworthy vehicles.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN298

In this case the employee was going from Jersey Road in Bayswater?---Yes.

PN299

To the Bayswater Village LPO; that would take about five minutes, correct?
---That would probably take - I am the ex-driver, but it would not take five minutes, as you say five minutes. It would take at least five minutes to get out of the facility and then you've got the traffic lights at the end of Jersey Road and then you've got - it'd be more than that. It'd probably be 15 minutes. You've got railway lines, you've got other sets of traffic lights and who knows what the traffic conditions are outside. So it'd be - if you just got in a car, had a police escort, yes you'd be there in five minutes.

PN300

Have a look at this map, Mr Henley?---I know where we are.

PN301

THE COMMISSIONER: In any case, it says on duty 7 that the driver departs the Bayswater Transport hub at 12.15.

PN302

MR JACOBS: It's not right, Commissioner. That's not what happened in practice. I've taken instructions about that. You are right, there is that reference. You are right, Commissioner. But I have taken instructions about it.

PN303

Look, just quickly, have a look at the map if you would. There's a dot on Jersey Road for the hub and realistically, Mr Henley, it's going to take about 5 minutes, the drive; correct?---Just one moment while I get my bearings. Yes, there we are. Realistically, if the driver turned up, signed on, checked his vehicle, right? You're allowed 15 minutes to check your lights, wipers, roadworthy the vehicle. That will make it 12.15. Then you would go and load your stock - - -

PN304

THE COMMISSIONER: Just answer the question in relation to the amount of time it is going to take?---You would not get there, you know, it's a bit longer than five minutes.

PN305

MR JACOBS: All right. Just on these different things, the pre-checks that you are talking about?---Yes.

PN306

Mr Spencer says in his statement that performing a vehicle safety check would take maybe about 15 minutes, restocking it might take five to 15 minutes. On that basis, there's going to be a fair amount of inoperative time between 12 and 1 here; do you agree with that?---There would not be a fair amount of - no, there wouldn't be inoperative time so - as Mr Spencer so calls it. You are loading your vehicle, you're checking your vehicle and then you are driving to your first pickup point. So what you're saying, if it's inoperative, that once I've checked my van, until I get to the LPO that I'm doing unproductive work. How is the van going to get from Bayswater to the LPO?

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN307

Just to finish off on this?---So it is not unproductive.

PN308

Just to finish off, Mr Henley, I'm suggesting to you that the employee wouldn't have been busy between 12 and 1?---Yes, he is.

PN309

Do you take issue with that?---The driver has started his shift at 12 pm. He is being paid to do certain tasks and that is what he is doing; from 12 pm to 20 or quarter past 12 till 20 past, checking his vehicle for roadworthy and plus checking the vehicle - which is Post policy. You're allowed 15 minutes. They have since upgraded the pre-check which should be furthermore up to about 20 minutes now with the extra stuff you've got to do. Then load your van with stock. You wouldn't be leaving the facility for at least 25, 30 minutes. Then you have to travel to your first pickup, park - you know, park outside the facility where you're picking up from, right, and then go in and load. So it's not unproductive time. How else would the van get from the facility to the pickup point, because the person is employed as a driver.

PN310

Commissioner, just while I think of it, I tender the map. We don't have copies, I'm afraid, but if we could just have it tendered?---It's like you're saying - - -

PN311

THE COMMISSIONER: No, that is enough, thank you?---Sorry.

PN312

Just a moment. This is a very interesting map but what am I looking at in particular?

PN313

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, there's a red dot on Jersey Road which is the hub and then there is just the - - -

PN314

THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps you could highlight it?

PN315

MR JACOBS: Yes, Commissioner.

PN316

THE COMMISSIONER: So that we have got two highlighted points.

PN317

MR JACOBS: Indeed, that's a good idea, with respect, Commissioner. I should have done it.

PN318

THE COMMISSIONER: You are asking that that be marked.

EXHIBIT #G4 MAP OF BAYSWATER TRANSPORT HUB AND SURROUNDS

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN319

MR JACOBS: If the Commission pleases.

PN320

Still on this duty board for position 7, put aside the work between 1 o'clock and 1.50 which I accept was work of substance. When you come to 1.50 pm to the meal break, with the possible exception of an ad hoc pickup, it was pretty much work as directed; is that how you read the board?

PN321

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, could I raise a point? I believe that our submissions have not related to resurrecting duty 7. What we are saying is that because work in hubs can be shifted around, the 15 minute little bits of work that can be shifted onto all the duties available, that our submission has always been that over time Australia Post has gradually taken work off full time positions, loaded up the part-time positions so that the full time positions become less tenable and our submissions have been that in actual fact to apply two hours 21, that we are saying are established by the fact that there are all these additional hours that are not rostered for, onto two different duties, the array duty and the wine duty. Therefore I think all this detail - I mean, if Australia Post wish to proceed they can, but I think that we're getting drawn into a bit of a red herring.

PN322

THE COMMISSIONER: I have some sympathy with the view that Ms Doyle has expressed because my understanding is not - and I was starting to become very focused myself on that - the CEPUs submission has not been that duty 7 should be reinstated.

PN323

MR JACOBS: Should be reinstated. Commissioner, I accept that. I had in mind the issue of whether it ought to have been abolished and the clause in the EBA refers to a genuine need.

PN324

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN325

MR JACOBS: So it was just that that was what I was getting at. But if there's no issue and if - and I don't know. I'm not suggesting that this is how it's put, but if there's a concession that there was a genuine need to abolish this as a full time position, given that it was vacant, then I don't need to go there. But I just wasn't sure whether that was how it was put.

PN326

MS DOYLE: But Commissioner - - -

PN327

THE COMMISSIONER: Do not interrupt each other, please. It is a very important issue which the union must respond to prior to proceeding because obviously part of your submissions have been that the position was vacant and the pre-existing conditions were present for Australia Post to do an assessment of the position.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN328

MR JACOBS: That's right.

PN329

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Ms Doyle?

PN330

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, we gave evidence that in fact the full time duties, that people rotate around every full time duty in the facility. Nobody owns one particular job in the hub and our submission is that, while this man who was sick and left work was a full time person, he didn't do duty 7 all the time. Duty 7 doesn't belong to him.

PN331

THE COMMISSIONER: I see.

PN332

MS DOYLE: What we're arguing about is whether the work can be configured into full time hours as required by the EBA.

PN333

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, given that that's the case - and I have nearly finished on this duty board, there does seem to be an issue of some sort as to whether the work should have been taken from this duty board. I'm in your hands, Commissioner, but as I say, I'm nearly finished on it and it would seem just incumbent on me to perhaps put my final proposition in relation to the duty board. Because there does seem to be an issue as to whether the work should have been taken away.

PN334

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, because the submissions of the parties have emphasised different things it probably is important from your point of view to continue what you were asking Mr Henley about, concerning duty 7.

PN335

MR JACOBS: If the Commission pleases.

PN336

Mr Henley, just on this duty board, let me suggest this to you; that before 3.15 when the meal break finished - - -

PN337

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment, Mr Jacobs. Yes, this is the second time in as many weeks that the upgrading of the Commission's information technology sources have been of great assistance to the parties. If you go into a website which is known as where is it, you can plot precisely, staying within the speed limits, the time it takes you and the distance from point A to point B. From
33 Jersey Road, Bayswater to High Street, Bayswater is a distance of 1.93 kilometres and sticking within the speed limits, takes you approximately four minutes. I think that might put paid to any more questions about how long it takes to drive from the hub to the village.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN338

MR JACOBS: Yes, Commissioner.

PN339

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Dean.

PN340

MR JACOBS: You are one step ahead or your associate, Commissioner, is one step ahead of us.

PN341

Just to finish off on duty board 7, up until 3.15 pm when the meal break finished I put it to you that the only work of much substance was the work between
1 o'clock and 1.50 pm; do you agree with that, Mr Henley?---Work of substance, providing that everything was ready at the LPO and providing everything was right, he would be back at the facility approximately 2 pm, 1400. We can't just go by this because they're only an estimated time.

PN342

You are right, it's an estimated time but Australia Post say there is some latitude given, so it assumes slow progress between points and the like; is that a fair call?
---But even with latitude given there are times where you, as a professional driver, do get held up.

PN343

All right?---And there are lots of times when people run over the given times through no fault of their own. These are only just a guide.

PN344

All right?---All right, so, you know?

PN345

Prior to 8 February this year, the hub drivers at Bayswater were informed via toolbox talks of what was proposed; correct?---They were having a - it was supposed to be a consultation process, but I think there was just a toolbox talk and that was the end of it, whatever.

PN346

So just dealing with the toolbox - - -?---I have seen a - - -

PN347

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, could I suggest that Mr Henley is in no way to give evidence on this and that that perhaps should stay with the shop steward, who would be present at these toolbox talks.

PN348

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN349

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, I don't mind. I'm happy to take that up but if I could just point out there was some evidence in his statement about inadequate consultation.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN350

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN351

MR JACOBS: And the drivers not knowing about it. So as a matter of fairness, I wanted to put that proposition to Mr Henley. I'm in your hands, Commissioner.

PN352

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, certainly in relation to the toolbox talk, that is a matter which directly affects Mr Henley. But the generalisations which are made in Mr Henley's statement - I am sorry, the generalisations and more specific comments at paragraph 11.

PN353

MR JACOBS: Yes.

PN354

THE COMMISSIONER: Do go to the issue of consultation and the questions to Mr Henley should probably be directed there.

PN355

MR JACOBS: I will take that up, Commissioner.

PN356

I will just repeat the question. I'm suggesting to you, Mr Henley, that on the ground at the hub the drivers were informed via the toolbox talks of what was proposed; can you say anything about that? Do you agree with that?---On the grounds of the Bayswater Transport facility - - -

PN357

THE COMMISSIONER: I cannot hear you, Mr Henley?---Sorry. On the ground at the Bayswater Transport facility there might have been toolbox talks about some sort of consultation process happening out there. But in my statement, lack of consultation - that's referring to the lack of consultation in the CEPU plus with our shop steward plus, you know, us being given the full and open consultation and your intentions of what you were doing at the Bayswater Transport facility.

PN358

All right. Just on that, can I just ask you to go to tab 12 of Mr Smith's statement. No, it's the folder that you - yes, that's right. If you could go to tab 12?---Yes.

PN359

At tab 12 of Mr Smith's statement there's a letter from Mr Humble dated 24 January 2005 and that's to Ms Doyle. I'm sorry, Commissioner, I have moved to tab 12 of Mr Smith's statement.

PN360

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN361

MR JACOBS: In that letter the union was put on notice of the detail of what was proposed?---Mr Humble did send that letter to the union. Yes, I did read it but there was no further documentation. That was just advising that yes, we're looking at changes at Bayswater, this is what we're looking at, right?

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN362

But the detail is set out in the document; correct?---The detail of what he's saying, that, you know, in regards to changes, duties 21 and 7 as part of the hub review, productivity improvement, going through an amalgamation of a number of duties. That's what he's saying the changes are looking like being implemented.

PN363

All right. I put to you that by reason of this letter and the subsequent discussions that took place between Ms Doyle and Mr Kelly, the union was well on notice of what was proposed; would you accept that?---Consultation is not just, you know, a phone call or one letter. Consultation is a long process. You know, its not just here's a letter, we've done the consultation process. That does not come out in our EBA. Our EBA states that full and clear consultation, not just one letter saying this is what we're doing.

PN364

THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, Mr Jacobs. In part, never a truer word has been said. I think it probably has been my error in not realising that it is CEPU and Australia Post policy and that is your words, that consultation is a long process. It is not necessary that it needs to be a long process. On some occasions a phone call is absolutely perfect and adequate for a situation. In other occasions, it will take months of meetings and anywhere in between those things. So I cannot say to you that you are wrong, Mr Henley, but I just want to say that if you have stated that the clauses in the enterprise agreement say that consultation has to be a long process, that is incorrect?---Well, no, not as in long, as in long but - - -

PN365

THE COMMISSIONER: What do you mean not as in long as in long?---It's a process. It's not just ring me on the phone and say, you know, "I'm changing these jobs and that's it". That's not consultation. Or sending me a letter saying, "This is what we're doing". That's not consultation. There's been various aspects of this - these things that are happening at Bayswater that the consultation process wasn't going down the line of how it's been agreed to.

PN366

I want to put a position to you. If the Commission was to find that the decisions made at the Bayswater hub were consistent with the enterprise agreement, consistent with best business practice, consistent with the responsibility that Australia Post has of meeting the requirements of its customers in an efficient manner and a timely manner, but I found that the consultative process which was carried out was not consistent with the consultative process that falls from the provisions of the enterprise agreement; what would you suggest are the orders that would meet that situation?

PN367

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, is that not more properly directed to me?

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN368

THE COMMISSIONER: I certainly will get to you on that issue, Ms Doyle, but Mr Henley seems to be the resident expert on everything that happens at Bayswater and he has put himself up, the manner in which he has answered the questions, I do not think that is an undue burden to ask him. If he says he does not know, well I will accept that as well?---The consultation process, Commissioner, it's - I said that in that text there, right? Even the customers that they've, you know - Australia Post says, "Oh, yes, we look after our customers. We need the customer base". They - you know, even the advice to their customer was just bang, we're not picking you up until 2.30, 3 o'clock. The whole process is flawed.

PN369

At what stage - and this is something that Ms Doyle should address in her submissions later - does the union have a role in the advice which Australia Post gives to its customers?---Well, we'd have a similar role in that because whatever advice - - -

PN370

I beg your pardon?---If Australia Post says to their customer that, sorry we're not going to pick you up until 4, 5 o'clock or something, well that affects their employees which are our members at the Bayswater hub. Therefore, that would have an effect on the union as well, because we have to look after our members in their employment.

PN371

Right. So in fact is it your view, on knowing intimately the operations of Bayswater hub, that any decisions that Australia Post makes regarding its services and its servicing of clients, that that should be advised to you first?---Any decision that has an impact on our members, you know. Not only for our members, you know. We should be advised because it is going to affect our members and we're there to look after them.

PN372

Perhaps I will take us away from that particular issue and use another example. In a new suburb in a new street, where the drivers of Bayswater were going to collect mail, would consultation have to occur in relation to the location of an SPB?
---That would be done through HSR and the local shop steward, that facility.

PN373

That would be done?---Yes. It's supposed to be done, yes. It's part of the process.

PN374

So the employees have a say or an influence on the actual physical location of an SPB?---The HSR and the employees, yes.

PN375

Yes?---Because of where it's going from.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN376

Because of the manner in which they have to service that SPB?---Service that, yes.

PN377

I see. Yes, thank you, but it was an important point I understood. Mr Jacobs.

PN378

MR JACOBS: If the Commission pleases. Commissioner, just on the issue of consultation, I'm just proposing to come back to it in submissions.

PN379

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN380

MR JACOBS: There is nothing really that I need to pursue.

PN381

You gave some evidence about duty 23, which you would refer to as the wine run; that 's the duty that involves going out to Healesville and Warburton and the Yarra Valley Wineries, is that right?---Yes. That's correct.

PN382

I suggest to you that it's not feasible for additional duties to be added on to that run because the employee returns at different times of the day so there can't be a guarantee that the employee could perform the extra duties on time every day; do you agree with that?---No. You're saying that - what you're interpreting is that you can't put any more work on that because you cannot guarantee that that employee will be back at that particular time; is that what you're referring to?

PN383

Yes. Yes, that's what I'm putting to you?---Right. Well, if he starts at 7 am, goes and does his work and then goes out to do the pickups round the winery areas, you know, the 11 o'clock is the time that he ceases duty. But if there's extra work he'll finish later. It doesn't mean that you can't put any more work on that job because he finishes at 11 am. No.

PN384

But Mr Henley, when we look at attachment 3 to your statement, if you would just go to that, to your statement. So attachment 3?---Yes.

PN385

What you are saying here - and I don't take issue with you - is that because sometimes it's two wineries, sometimes it's six or eight, the employee's coming back at different times; correct?---Yes. That's correct. He's coming back after his rostered finishing time.

PN386

I suggest to you that for that reason it wouldn't be satisfactory to tack on duties because there would be no guarantee, from the customer's perspective, that he or she would get there at the same time every day; do you agree with that?---On that particular duty there are a couple of ad hocs. There are - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN387

THE COMMISSIONER: I cannot hear you?---Sorry, Commissioner. There are a couple of ad hoc pickups but there are also pickups that are there for Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. You've got a couple that are, you know, Wednesday and Friday pickup only.

PN388

MR JACOBS: Sorry, what are you referring to there?---You're saying that most of the work in the morning on that job are only ad hocs, right, on duty 23; is that right?

PN389

THE COMMISSIONER: No.

PN390

MR JACOBS: No?---Sorry.

PN391

I was just referring to your attachment 3, okay?

PN392

THE COMMISSIONER: Tab 3 of your attachment.

PN393

MR JACOBS: It's at tab 3 and - - -

PN394

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment. It's the document that you have got regarding the extended hours?---Yes. Yes, that one. Yes. I've got that one.

PN395

MR JACOBS: You have that?---Yes.

PN396

No, no, that's not it. It's tab 3.

PN397

MS DOYLE: It's the green tab on there?---Yes. The extended hour - additional hours.

PN398

Yes?---Yes.

PN399

MR JACOBS: What I was suggesting to you is that you have - and I don't take issue with you - but you have accurately recorded here the fact that duty 23 comes back at different and varying times on a daily basis; do you agree with that?
---Yes. Even though it might be only Friday, but yes, I do agree with it.

PN400

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---I do agree with the additional hours that I've presented.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN401

MR JACOBS: Just to come back to this point, on that basis I'm suggesting to you that you couldn't' add on duties because there would be no guarantee, from the customer's perspective, that the employee could get to the customer on time every day; do you accept that or not?---No. With the customer - with our customers there is the - the customer would ring Australia Post and say, excuse me I'd like to have a pickup on Friday or Monday 11 am. Australia Post is not locked into that 11 am. There is, you know, time after that. There is no specific - I have to be there at 10 am, right? It could be a bit later because, you know - and - - -

PN402

But Mr Henley the differences you have recorded here are quite significant ones. So sometimes it's an hour, sometimes it's an hour and a half. Sometimes more, sometimes less, so from the customer's perspective - - -?---So he's doing - well, he's doing additional work.

PN403

Yes, and from a customer's perspective - - -

PN404

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, I don't think the witness understands the question. If I could just elaborate?

PN405

THE COMMISSIONER: No.

PN406

MS DOYLE: No?

PN407

THE COMMISSIONER: I think he was - - -

PN408

MS DOYLE: I think he's fixed on that period rather than the latter period.

PN409

THE COMMISSIONER: I think he does understand it. We will clarify that.

PN410

MS DOYLE: Yes.

PN411

THE COMMISSIONER: Where there are issues, where you believe Mr Jacobs has not been clear or has drawn the wrong conclusion, in re-examination you will have an opportunity to rebut any of those issues.

PN412

MS DOYLE: I just thought the witness was getting a bit confused and flustered.

PN413

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, he does not look confused and flustered to me but if you are feeling confused and flustered, Mr Henley, do let me know?---Yes. I'm just trying to grapple with this. It's my first time in a witness box, especially with this one.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN414

THE COMMISSIONER: It's your first time in the witness box?---In this one, yes.

PN415

In this one, yes. Mr Jacobs.

PN416

MR JACOBS: If the Commission pleases.

PN417

Just on tab 3, what you have recorded is that the employee comes back at significantly different times. So sometimes it's an hour, sometimes it's an hour and a half, more or less. So I suggest to you on that basis that that's no good from the customer's perspective, because they want someone reasonably on time; do you accept that or not?---This is after his cessation time, 11 am. This is additional hours after he's been to those customers.

PN418

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN419

MS DOYLE: But if he was - - -

PN420

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Doyle, you cannot do that.

PN421

MS DOYLE: I'm sorry.

PN422

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley - - -?---The times that I've got here - - -

PN423

Yes, now just listen?---Yes.

PN424

You have looked at this from the extended hours?---Yes.

PN425

This is what Mr Jacobs is taking you to. But instead of you answering his question, you are saying that the wine run can have additional duties put on to it and there are two ways of doing it. Either before they commence the run or afterwards and Mr Jacobs is taking you - if I can paraphrase what he is doing - to the impracticality of meeting particular, regular requirements because on your own figures, you have shown that there are lots of times when the run is extended for a range of reasons, which no one is arguing about. So that is the issue that he is taking you to, all right? He is not saying what may happen at any other time. He is saying, on your figures, based on the difference in the time they return, would it be difficult for regular duties to be built in, say at 11 o'clock, given the figures that you have provided?---With the figures that I've provided, Commissioner, I'm going on from 7 am to 11. Now I can't say whether the driver finished his wine run, whatever.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN426

No, no?---But the additional work that he's doing after 11 am, it could be additional pickups from off another run or additional work somewhere else. But the hours are still there.

PN427

MR JACOBS: If it would assist - - -

PN428

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Doyle.

PN429

MR JACOBS: Just to finish. I am not going to take it any further except for one matter.

PN430

Mr Henley, my instructions are that in relation to these additional hours that you have recorded, this is all to do with duty 23 and the wine run, so to speak. So the employee does not come back to the hub and then go out again on extra duties; are you able to say anything about that?---This particular person that does this run, these hours are from his start time to his cessation time, which is when he signed off at the Bayswater Transport facility, right? Now, from 11 am to the time that he signs off, I don't know what he does.

PN431

All right?---That's - I'm not at liberty to - I don't - I wouldn't know what he does, Commissioner. But he is doing work after 11 am and it must be meaningful work because Australia Post are paying him those hours.

PN432

All right?---So there must be work there.

PN433

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry. Now I have become confused. This duty 23 is a full time position? No, it is a part-time position.

PN434

MR JACOBS: It's part-time?---Permanent part-time. It's 7 am till 11, Commissioner.

PN435

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon? It is from when?---7 am till 11 am.

PN436

Yes.

PN437

MR JACOBS: If I can just ask you about Bayswater Village LPO and I will ask you to go to Mr Spencer's witness statement and I think that you have a copy of that there.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN438

Commissioner, I want to go to paragraphs 20 to 21 of Mr Spencer's statement.

PN439

THE COMMISSIONER: Just help Mr Henley thanks.

PN440

MR JACOBS: Have you got that?---Yes.

PN441

Can you please go to paragraphs 20 and 21?---Yes.

PN442

Take as much time as you need to read those paragraphs and then I want to put to you that what he says there is correct about Bayswater Village, and get your comments on it.

PN443

THE COMMISSIONER: I wonder whether this might not be a convenient time to adjourn?

PN444

MR JACOBS: I'm in your hands, Commissioner.

PN445

THE COMMISSIONER: Because Mr Henley could then read those two paragraphs over lunch.

PN446

MR JACOBS: Yes?---This will only take me 1 minute to answer, Commissioner.

PN447

What time do you want a break, Commissioner?

PN448

THE COMMISSIONER: That is a very polite question, Mr Jacobs, but I will not tell you how I would like to answer you. I was trying to be of assistance to Mr Henley but if he does not want any assistance, well then we will make him read this now and respond?

PN449

MR JACOBS: If the Commission pleases.

PN450

Tell us when you are ready?---Yes.

PN451

Then I will ask you about those paragraphs?---Yes. Ask me.

PN452

You are right, okay?---Yes.

PN453

I suggest to you that all of what Mr Spencer says in these paragraphs is correct; do you agree with that?---In there Mr Spencer says that he has not heard from the Bayswater - not aware of any contact between the proprietor of the Bayswater Village LPO. The manager of the Bayswater Village LPO has rang Australia Post on a number of occasions but he has spoken to the delivery business centre manager and voiced his concerns there.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN454

Who is that?---I'm not familiar with the manager of the delivery.

PN455

The delivery business centre manager?---The business centre manager, he's ranked there. The business centre manager, complaining that he has, you know, they've taken away my pickups from 12 and 12.30 and moved them later. I've got no room. I've got, you know, no space. He has rang and in his letter he has - he stated that he had rang Post and even, you know, advised him that in 2 weeks time we're going to stop your 12 o'clock pickup. You know, it was just over the phone and also the proprietor of the Bayswater LPO, you know, the small cage for Colby that's there, he's got stuff stacked in that, over the back. He has got no room and he has explained to the manager at the business centre.

PN456

Just on that, Mr Henley, just quickly on this; as Mr Spencer says, at the LPO there's a partitioned area so the counter is separate from where the mail is stored. So there is no problem from the counter employees; do you agree with that?---No. If I can just show you something.

PN457

What do you want to say?---I have been to that Bayswater LPO. The storage area of the parcels and mails is at the end of the counter and - where that walkway is the end of this bench, Commissioner. The Colby is just at the end of your bench, this is the counter where the man - the Post people - the LPO proprietors serve the customers and all the mail that is stored down on that corner, he's got two little, like swinging doors on the end and the mail is stored in full view of the public; and his storage area is very cramped; which would only probably be the size of this gentleman's quarters here and the Colby sits in that as well.

PN458

Just to finish on this, I suggest to you that as Mr Spencer says, it's a separate area and it does not create problems for the counter staff; do you agree with that or not?---It does create problems for the counter staff because where the counter staff work, if they need to go out into their shop area to restock stands or whatever, or even to go out the front, they have to go past all the stored mail and parcels that are overflowing by 2 pm, you know, in the afternoon. Even at 12 midday he's got stuff stored at that area which does impact on his, you know, area of the shop.

PN459

But Mr Henley, in you examination-in-chief you said to the Commission that the real issue was from 12 pm onwards. On your evidence, you said there was a fair volume of mail from 12 pm onwards?---That's right, yes.

PN460

Remember you saying that?---Yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN461

Are you saying now that there's a problem at 12 o'clock as well or is it only a problem after 12 o'clock?---It's before 12. I'm - the public can go in there from any time from 9 am in the morning, right? Through till 11 o'clock and they could post heaps of mail and parcels and everything like that, you know. There is work there and that has even come from the letter, you know. The proprietor has got mail and parcels there, you know, prior to the 2 - he's got a whole heap of mail there. He has just been congested by you not picking him up at his normal pickup time of 12 o'clock, 12.30. You are creating - and 1 o'clock. You are creating problems for the proprietor of that business and not only that, you are putting at risk your own employees and our members, with the volumes of work that the driver's got to pick up, you know, at 2 o'clock, 2.30.

PN462

Mr Henley, there have been no complaints from hub drivers, have there? For example, there are no entries on the issues register or anything like that; correct?
---I - well the complaints - from a part-timer's perspective, a part-time person would get his van, toddle off, go and do his work and try and get it done. A part-time person would relatively, you know, not so much complain because of, you know, I'm doing me job. But they are - the drivers have spoken to the proprietor at the Bayswater LPO and sort of give him, you know - told him, why have I got all this? You know, he's - - -

PN463

Are you saying to the Commission that a part-time driver, if there's an occupational - - -?---It's - - -

PN464

Just a moment.

PN465

THE COMMISSIONER: Just listen until the question has been asked.

PN466

MR JACOBS: Are you saying to the Commission that if there's an occupational health and safety issue affecting a part-time driver they are not going to raise it? They just get on with their job; is that what you are saying?---What I'm saying is the drivers go to where they're picking up at this particular place. The proprietors - they look - the proprietor advised me that, you know, some of the looks on the drivers faces when they come and see that mass array of stuff and the driver's, goodness, you know, why am I picking up all this? It could have been picked up earlier and they do, you know, have, you know - they've got to look after their own health and safety and to be put in that position, where you're picking up al that mail in such a congested area, right? It's up to the individual to make a formal complaint.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN467

Who is the individual, Mr Henley? Who is the part-timer?---I beg your pardon?

PN468

Who is the driver who - - -?---Whoever's doing that particular run.

PN469

Do you know who it is?---I don't know who's picking - not offhand. I'd have to try and find out who's picking them up.

PN470

You do not, okay. Mr Spencer, because this serious issue has been raised, he will say that he has spoken to the employee?---Yes.

PN471

He says there is no problem with the amount of mail being picked up from the LPOs, from the driver's perspective; do you want to say anything about that?---I was in, you know, I was employed as a driver for - I was in the hub network for three years and I seen - I know how the hub operation work extensively.

PN472

THE COMMISSIONER: That is not the question you have been asked?
---Commissioner, people will -there are people in every industry that will go to work, do their job and won't say anything because they just want to get their job done. You know, it might be hard, it might be strenuous or whatever but they just do it just to get the job completed, you know. He's - I don't know whether the person doesn't want to rock the boat, so to speak, back at the facility in fear or whatever. I can't really answer that.

PN473

Well maybe he does not have a problem with what he is being asked to do?
---Well, the proprietor seems to, you know - people go on impressions and when you see a driver walk in and see this mass volume of mail, thinking goodness, you know. I mean, then you've got to try and squeeze through this narrow kind of doorway.

PN474

So you are saying that this particular problem has been caused because Australia Post made a decision, after review, to convert duty 7 as a part-time job rather than a full time job in February this year?---The decision Australia Post made - what Australia Post do is, as I probably explained earlier, Commissioner, is - - -

PN475

No, can you just answer my question?---They have - the pickup time of that facility now is, you know, a bit more risky as far as the health and safety - - -

PN476

Is that the issue that is before the Commission?---No, the issue is that there is work there available to be done at the appropriate time of the day, when Australia Post says there is no work between 11 and 2 - 10 and 2. These particular places, Bayswater and Kilsyth, can be done at the normal pickup time of 12, 1 o'clock and that, you know, there is work there. Australia Post is saying there's not. There is. By them just deferring a pickup later in the afternoon, that's not helping anybody. That's just cutting out two hours of work time in order to save that and we'll just plonk that onto another job, you know.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN477

Yes, well I certainly am going to break at this time. You can step down, thank you, Mr Henley.

PN478

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, can I to assist you just quickly indicate - I'm in your hands but obviously we want to try and finish, if possible, today. But we are in your hands in terms of that.

PN479

THE COMMISSIONER: I would say after this morning's session - - -

PN480

MR JACOBS: You think that's too optimistic, Commissioner?

PN481

THE COMMISSIONER: I would say that's extremely optimistic. I share your wish and I'm sure Ms Doyle does as well, but I just cannot see how we are going to finish this today. It would be appropriate, I think, to go into conference to discuss this. Step down, Mr Henley. We will adjourn these proceedings now until 2.15.

<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.57PM]
<RESUMED [2.20PM]

PN482

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley, you're still under oath. Mr Jacobs?

PN483

MR JACOBS: If the Commission pleases.

PN484

Mr Henley, before lunch you gave some evidence about the retail centre manager, complaints from the Bayswater LPO to something like the retail centre manager, do you remember you gave evidence about that?---The business - business centre. He rang up the business centre manager.

PN485

Just so I can understand, do you mean the business centre manager at Bayswater, is that right?---At Bayswater, at Jersey Road, Bayswater, where the TAB is - pub is attached to, yes.

PN486

All right. Gary Walsh - - -?---No, no.

PN487

- - - that's him, isn't it?---No, no, no. Herman? I think it's Herman, somebody. Or it could be Gary. I'm - I didn't go into great detail with him, but he advised me that he'd rang and spoke to them down there in regards to what's happened to his pick-ups and the volume of mail.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN488

We have instructions from the business centre manager, Gary Walsh, to the effect that issues have never been raised with him from Bayswater Village LPO, along those lines. Do you want to say anything about that?---Well, as I stated earlier, I spoke to the proprietor of Bayswater LPO, and he advised me that he had contacted the facility to raise his concerns about not getting his pick-up of mail that normally occurred around 12 - 1 o'clock, and he raised concerns with him about the volumes and also that, with Christmas coming on, those volumes are going to explode. He'll have no room whatsoever.

PN489

Just on exhibit BH13, now that was the new document. Commissioner, this is the Kilsyth letter. I'm not sure if the witness has a copy.

PN490

You may not?---No.

PN491

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not sure I have a copy.

PN492

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, would it be convenient to have some copies made now, or should we just show the witness - - -

PN493

THE WITNESS: In my folder over there. The yellow - yellow.

PN494

MR JACOBS: Thank you. If you'd just have a look at that document? You'll see that the document says:

PN495

Australia Post drivers previously picked up the mail and parcels from this post office at 1 pm.

PN496

Now, just keep that open, and can you go back to the duty board for duty 7, which is at tab 6 of the folder? Now, Mr Henley, my reading of this is that the duty 7 employee would have got to the Kilsyth LPO at about 1.30 or thereabouts; is that - do you agree with that reading of that?---Going - I agree with what's set out on the duty board, but going by the duty board and going by - being an ex-driver, that that says 1 pm, but you might do it at 1.00, you could do it the other way around. But when this manager from Kilsyth - 1 pm, well, that's when they're sort of expected to have their mail picked up. All those LPOs are there for 1 o'clock and you can't naturally be at everyone at 1 pm.

PN497

Yes, and just on the duty board, as I understand it, that really sets out the order of where you're going to go. I mean, you just said a minute you might swap them around, but in the main you'd be sticking to the order on the duty board; is that a fair proposition?---Normally people do, drivers would. Duty board is a guide. So, you know, where - I can see where you're trying to go - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN498

Well, don't - - -

PN499

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley - - -?---Sorry.

PN500

- - - it's not a matter of you seeing where Mr Jacobs is heading. Can you just answer the questions, please?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN501

MR JACOBS: And just a final thing on this BH13, there's a reference:

PN502

We don't receive our pick-up now until about 2.20 pm.

PN503

Can you see that?---Yes, I can.

PN504

Now, if you'll go, please, to one of Mr Spencer's exhibits - - -

PN505

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, before you move off this exhibit, Mr Jacobs. The duty 7 sheet under tab 6 of Mr Smith's statement indicates that at 1 o'clock Bayswater Village LPO will have its pick-up. It then goes Croydon and then Kilsyth. I just want to make this clear. There seems to be a difference between you on this.

PN506

Mr Henley, you say that the driver decides in which order they'll pick up, is that correct?---Well, that depends - you know, the drivers do - all of them go by their duty board, right, but that might a time that they might do it, just a little bit different, just to break the monotony.

PN507

Well, in what circumstance would they decide to do it differently to the manner in which it's listed on the duty board?---Well, it's just - it's me, past experience, that's all, Commissioner. Just I can't speak for everybody, but whether it's as - - -

PN508

Well, I'm trying not to make a decision based on one-off experiences which don't give me the true picture, or to what previously happened when you were a driver. Now, on the basis of the information that I have before me, would you expect that someone carrying out the duty 7 position would do the collections in the manner in which they are listed?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN509

Thank you?---What I was trying to get to - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN510

No?---All right.

PN511

MR JACOBS: Mr Henley, just I think the final point on this BH13, there's a reference to:

PN512

We don't receive our pick-up now until about 2.20 pm.

PN513

Can you see that there?---Yes, I do.

PN514

If you would please go to exhibit GS2; now, have you got Mr Spencer's exhibits there?---No. This is his, isn't it?

PN515

I think we have a spare copy.

PN516

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I have a spare copy, too.

PN517

MR JACOBS: Thank you. Now, if you'll go to GS2, you'll see that's the duty board for 25, duty 25; is that the document you have?---Yes, it is.

PN518

And this is the current and relevant part-time duty. Now, you'll see there's a reference, “1.30 Bayswater Transport Hub” and then the first reference is “Bayswater Village LPO” and then there's Kilsyth. Now, I suggest to you that currently the relevant part-time employee would be at Kilsyth at about 2 o'clock or thereabouts; you would agree with that, based on the duty board?---I'd say he'd be there a bit after two, after 2 pm. Probably more closer to 2.30 probably, or quarter past two.

PN519

But Croydon is going to be closer to 2.30, you would accept that, from the duty board? I mean, I'm not putting it to you as an exact thing, but I'm saying around about 2 o'clock?---But going from the time he leaves - he signs on the facility, prepares his vehicle, that's already quarter to two, right, and he hasn't even left the facility. Then he's got to go to Bayswater, then back to Kilsyth. You know?

PN520

All right?---So you've got to look at it realistically.

PN521

Now, in your witness statement, if you would just turn to that? Can you go to paragraph 23 of your statement?---Yes.

PN522

Down the bottom, right down the bottom, you say that the SPBs at Kilsyth LPO used to be cleared in the morning, but they're not now. Do you maintain that's the case?---20 - sorry, I think I've got the wrong page. On my - our reference
6 - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN523

MS DOYLE: It's our 1. Page 13.

PN524

THE WITNESS: Yes.

PN525

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Doyle - - -

PN526

THE WITNESS: Sorry.

PN527

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - please don't assist. It makes it very, very difficult for the transcript to have a whole range of voices - - -

PN528

THE WITNESS: Okay. I've got your part now.

PN529

MR JACOBS: So, right down the bottom, there's a reference, the SPBs, the three postal boxes at Kilsyth, used to be cleared in the morning, but they're not now. Do you have that reference?---It doesn't say that - hang on a sec.

PN530

THE COMMISSIONER: It actually goes over the page.

PN531

MR JACOBS: Have you read that?---Yes.

PN532

Keep that open if you like, and I also want to show you exhibit GS5, and again, we might just give you a copy, might be easier. Now, that's the duty board for duty 19 and if you'll please go to 8.45, the reference to 8.45 am?---Mm.

PN533

MS DOYLE: I'm sorry, what duty are we up to?

PN534

MR JACOBS: It's GS5; it's duty 19. Now, you'll see there's a reference at 8.45 am to Kilsyth LPO, can you see that?---Yes, I see that.

PN535

And now that you've had the opportunity to look at this duty board, you would accept that given that there's a delivery at that time, as Mr Spencer says, the SPBs are also cleared at that time, is that fair?---He has got it down there that it has been done, but I also note that this duty board was drawn up on the 17th of the 10th. Deliver all mail. Yes, they have got it on there that the SPB does get cleared at 8.45. On this current duty board.

PN536

Well, Mr Henley, Mr Spencer says in his statement that at the moment, he's working as a TO in the morning, but his normal duty board, when he's not working as a TO, is this one, duty 19, and he says that he knows that as per this duty board that's here, the SPBs get cleared at that time at Kilsyth. Now, you're not in a position to take issue with that, are you?---Well, in all the years that I've been clearing SPBs, and even up to currently - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN537

THE COMMISSIONER: I can't hear what you're saying?---Sorry. Excuse me, sorry, Commissioner. In all the years I've been clearing SPBs and that, and working in morning shifts, we never used to clear the SPBs until well after, you know, 10, 12 midday, because at that time of the morning, there wouldn't be anything in there, at 8.30.

PN538

Mr Henley, how long since you have been a driver in a position - - - ?---Two years.

PN539

- - - such as this?---Two years, Commissioner.

PN540

Do you accept that things may have changed?---Realistically, there wouldn't be very much - very little mail at all in that SPB to warrant it to be cleared in the morning. More around 11, 12, yes, but not that hour of the morning. That's all I'm saying, Commissioner.

PN541

MR JACOBS: But Mr Henley - - -

PN542

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So Australia Post has made some extraordinary management positions, to send out drivers to clear empty SPBs?
---Well - - -

PN543

Be that as it may, that is not the question?---Right. I acknowledge that it's on the duty board, yes, at 8.45.

PN544

MR JACOBS: Yes, it's on the duty board:

PN545

Deliver all available, collect all available.

PN546

And Spencer says that's what happens, and to your knowledge, you can't take issue with that, correct?---That's what it says on the duty board. Well, so be it. That's it.

PN547

All right?---As I say, I'd like to take note that this one's been reprinted on the 17th of the 10th.

PN548

Are you saying - - -?---There could have been changes, or whatever. That's all.

PN549

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN550

MR JACOBS: Well, Mr Henley, I won't waste much time on this, but are you saying this has been tricked up, or changed, this duty board - - - ?---No. No, not at all, I'm just saying - - -

PN551

- - - for the purposes of this matter?--- - - - no. I'm not saying that at all.

PN552

Then why do you point to that, Mr Henley?---Just over previous years, being - just ex-driver, that's all.

PN553

Okay. Now, just on Kilsyth and probably to finish up on it, I'm instructed by Mr Spencer that there have been a couple of occasions when there's been a call from the LPO along the lines of, “Look, we're pretty full today, can you send a van?” so there have been a couple of occasions to that effect, but when that's happened, the van's been sent and the issue has been dealt with on the occasion that it's arisen. Are you in a position to dispute that?---There wouldn't be a need to send an extra vehicle, you know, if he had his normal pick-up at, you know, 12 - 12 o'clock or one. 12.30. There wouldn't be a need for extra resources.

PN554

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley, answer the question?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN555

If you want to manage Australia Post, please apply for a job there. We're not asking you, or Mr Jacobs is not asking you your views in relation to how to manage Australia Post. He's asking you questions specific to the documentation that we have before us. Now, can you go back to the question? Are there occasions when special calls will be made for special pick-ups, in your knowledge? If you don't know, say no?---There are times when people do request extra pick-ups, yes, Commissioner.

PN556

MR JACOBS: As a general proposition? So as I understand - if I can just try and understand that answer, what you're saying is that generally at Australia Post, any hub, sometimes a customer will say, “Look, can you come and send a van? We've got some mail that needs to be picked up.” In other words, an ad hoc sort of thing, in your general experience. Is that what you're saying?---What I'm saying - yes, that's - that's what I'm saying.

PN557

Okay. Now, I'd like you to go to Mr Spencer's statement and in particular to paragraph 24. Do you have his statement there? I think - is that it?---Yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN558

If you would go to paragraph 24, what he's saying here - and take the time you need to read it - but what he's saying is that this suggestion of moving the duties away from the existing part-time 25, that would create other problems. So you'd have to find additional ad hoc duties, you might reduce the hours, et cetera. Now, take the time you need, but do you agree with what he's saying there?---Yes, he's saying that to take that particular part of the work off this duty, it would probably lose an hour or so work, correct?

PN559

Well, that's one thing he's saying, but what he's saying is that on balance, as he assesses it, if you took work away from that duty, that would create its own problems, and on balance, it's not the appropriate thing to do. Now, what do you say to that?---I'd say that to lose one hour off that duty, which was increased to the five hours, would move it back to the status quo of going on a 7-21 job, full time.

PN560

And are you saying that on your proposal, you'd abolish - you'd get rid of duty 25, or - - -?---No, that's not - - -

PN561

- - - are you saying it would go back to four hours?---It says here that to take that work away, the duty would be reduced by one hour, which would go back to its original position of four hours, plus the work goes back onto the duty, say seven or whatever, and that becomes a fulltime position. The part-time position reverts back from a five-hour job to a four-hour position, which was your original position. That person has still got his employment and also we have got a fulltime position at Bayswater Transport facility.

PN562

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just ask you a question in relation to that,
Mr Henley? You're saying that the - to make up, as I understand it, duty 25 to a fulltime position, it requires an additional two hours, 21 minutes to be added to the duties that are already there; is that correct?---Is it 25 - - -

PN563

No, it's not written down there. I'm trying to make sense of what's being said?
---The 25 - I mean, just going back with a four-hour position, and with the other work, they increase it to the five hours - - -

PN564

Yes?---So - because they took it off - - -

PN565

Yes, yes. That's not what I'm asking you?---So if you took that - well, if you take the component with 25 - put it back to where it originally was - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN566

Which was duty 7?---Yes, then that would become a fulltime position and duty 25 goes back to its original.

PN567

My understanding, at the beginning of these proceedings, was that there needed to be an additional two hours, 21 - - -

PN568

MS DOYLE: Yes.

PN569

THE WITNESS: Yes.

PN570

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - put onto duty 7, to be able to - to which duty?

PN571

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, could I address you on this? The - - -

PN572

THE COMMISSIONER: No, Ms Doyle. Just tell me which position I'm talking about?

PN573

MS DOYLE: The wine run which is part-time 23 or the Array job, which is just called TS, it doesn't have a number.

PN574

THE COMMISSIONER: And the wine run is called - - -

PN575

MS DOYLE: PT23.

PN576

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. So in fact duty 7 has nothing to do with it?
---No, it's a - that they've taken off that and has been distributed - so we're not talking about - - -

PN577

And somehow we're not rebuilding duty 7?---No.

PN578

MS DOYLE: No.

PN579

THE COMMISSIONER: We're rebuilding another position?---Yes. Another fulltime position, Commissioner.

PN580

From a part-time position?---From the work that's been taken out of one position and spread around - - -

PN581

We're not creating a new position?---No. Extending - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN582

That's what I said.

PN583

MS DOYLE: Yes - - -

PN584

THE WITNESS: Another two positions - - -

PN585

THE COMMISSIONER: If you keep interrupting, I'll make you sit outside.

PN586

MS DOYLE: That would be good.

PN587

THE COMMISSIONER: So in fact, you're building on an existing part-time position somewhere?---Yes. Whether it be a - - -

PN588

Yes, yes, yes. All right. Now, so you've said - all right. Take this one hour, reduce this part-time position, which is duty 25, reduce it by one hour, from five hours to four hours. Take that one hour and build it on to one of the other part-time positions, but in order to build up the other part-time positions, you've got to build them with an additional two hours, 21 minutes to take them up to a full-time. This only provides you one hour?---One hour from this one will go onto a five-hour position which will make it six, and then depending on what work went onto this duty 25, how much of the component that was taken away from the original seven, so - - -

PN589

MS DOYLE: Commissioner - - -

PN590

THE COMMISSIONER: So in fact, the - what you could end up with is the duty 25 position which is less than four hours?---No. It would go back to four hours, minimum four hours.

PN591

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, can I address you on this matter?

PN592

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN593

MS DOYLE: I don't think it's the job of the witness - he's only a witness - to build the case for a seven hour, 21 position. In my submissions, we've argued a number of things. One is that - - -

PN594

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I know what you're argued. So you're saying that Mr Henley is not in a position to argue this?

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN595

MS DOYLE: To - yes, to answer the questions specifically and I think - - -

PN596

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right. I'm not going to take it further.

PN597

MS DOYLE: - - - the shop steward would probably be in a better position.

PN598

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Jacobs?

PN599

MR JACOBS: Just a moment, Commissioner.

PN600

Now, do you still have Mr Spencer's statement there?---Yes.

PN601

Will you go to paragraph 24? I'm sorry, if you go to your paragraph 24, 24 of your statement?---Yes. I have that.

PN602

Now, you are saying here that these might be some extra duties that might be performed. Now, normal delivery of stock and special stock requirements, that work is normally completed during normal deliveries and clearances, I suggest to you, so it would be completely unnecessary to have separate deliveries for those purposes? Do you agree with that?---No, I don't agree with that. The delivery of - as you see there, sprint pack, stamps, and all that sort of stuff - - -

PN603

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley, I can't hear you?---I don't agree with that Mr Jacobs is saying - - -

PN604

MR JACOBS: No, Mr Henley. I put aside sprint pack, because that's a separate one. I'll come to that in a minute. I asked you about the normal delivery of stock and special stock requirements, so bins and tubs and the like, and I'm suggesting to you - - -?---That - - -

PN605

Just a minute. I'm suggesting to you that that normally happens during normal deliveries and clearances and there's no need to have separate deliveries specifically for those purposes. Do you agree with that?---At times there are places that require stock, right. They - the driver can't load the stock on his van because it might be, for instance, it might be for Kilsyth. He's got 50 tubs and 100 bags for Kilsyth which is already taking up space in his vehicle and he's got two other pick-ups prior to getting to Kilsyth, right, which his van's already just over quarter loaded. Therefore, you know, it creates a shortage of space - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN606

Mr Henley - - -?--- - - - you know, there are things here that they can do.

PN607

Well, just concentrate on this stock issue?---That's what I was doing.

PN608

The position is that for a long time, the position has been, that if you need an extra tub or there's special stamps, you know, a whole thing of stamps or express post envelopes, that there'll be a call-in to the Hub, and then during the normal deliveries and clearances, they're taken out there, and that's a sensible way of doing it; do you agree?---At times, depending on volumes. That's what I'm talking about. And getting onto volumes, the clearing of heavy SPBs. You know, that there, there's a whole - those parts in there can be done effectively.

PN609

You're moving onto a different thing. But just let me ask you about sprint packs, sprint pack parcels. That's post logistics, correct? We're talking about the same thing?---Yes. Post logistics, division of Australia Post, yes.

PN610

Yes, and with a few exceptions, those deliveries are completed basically by parcel contractors and any exceptions, so if - well, I'll take it one step at a time. Parcel contractors deliver post logistics parcels and things, correct?---Parcel contractors deliver parcels, that is correct, but you know, that work was originally ours, in the transport network, so you know, we could still do that type of work.

PN611

Just to finish off on this, go to Mr Spencer's statement, please, paragraph 25?
---Yes.

PN612

Paragraph 25 of Mr Spencer's statement, subparagraphs (c) to (f), just read them. I want to ask you whether you agree with what he says. Have you finished looking at (c) to (f) there, or are you still going?---Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

PN613

I suggest to you that Spencer's right in those subparagraphs; what do you say?
---Well, mis-sorted express post - - -

PN614

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---Mis-sorted express post, right, they can be - there's always occasions where they're after the hours of 11 am, where they go to a different facility, by the time they get back to the right facility for delivery. He's also got here that heavy boxes - - -

PN615

MR JACOBS: Sorry, can we just deal - sorry. Let's just deal with them one at a time?---You said from - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN616

Yes, well, I don't think I'm being unfair to you. Just a second. Just on that point, Spencer says it occurs mainly in the morning, delivering mis-sorts, and it's only rarely during 11 and three. Now, it sounds as though you basically accept that, it's only going to be a rare occasion during those hours? Is that right?---No. It does happen. That's all I'm saying. It can happen after, before, so - - -

PN617

All right.

PN618

THE COMMISSIONER: Is it a regular occurrence or a rare occurrence?---To be done after 11 am and three? I have - over the years, I've seen express post mis-directions and that still being at the hubs at - - -

PN619

Is it a rare occurrence or a regular occurrence?---It depends on how regularly - you want to be, it probably - - -

PN620

MS DOYLE: Occasional.

PN621

THE WITNESS: Occasional. Occasionally, yes.

PN622

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, I'm - - -

PN623

THE WITNESS: More - more or less - - -

PN624

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, I think I just need to say something very quickly. There was a prompt from the bar table, and there oughtn't be.

PN625

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN626

MR JACOBS: And that's all I want to say and the transcript should record it. That's all.

PN627

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. That's right, and Ms Doyle has been - - -

PN628

MS DOYLE: I'll try to be more patient.

PN629

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - sufficiently glowered at, that she knows she has carried out a misdemeanour, so we'll move on.

PN630

MR JACOBS: If the Commission pleases.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN631

Now, Mr Henley, I interrupted you. What else do you want to say about those subparagraphs? Do you want to say anything else?---Where would you - are you happy with that answer?

PN632

Don't worry about whether I'm happy with the answer. Do you want to say anything else about those subparagraphs?---The heavy boxes, right, he's got no heavy boxes, mail is posted after 2 pm. After about 2 pm. SPBs, they start collecting mail well before that time, right? So we'd have heavy SPBs at around lunchtime, 12 midday, maybe even 11 am because people start posting them, mail at that time, there are also companies that have mail ready around - from 11 am onwards.

PN633

Mr Smith says in his statement that the general preference of customers is to have mail collected during the afternoons, and he's referring - well, he says afternoons, so we can take from that what we want, but - - -

PN634

THE COMMISSIONER: Whereabouts is that, please?

PN635

MR JACOBS: It's paragraph 10 of Mr Smith's statement, Commissioner.

PN636

Do you have Mr Smith's statement? That will be in the folder there, Mr Henley? Is it there? Is it on the front?---Yes, I've got that.

PN637

Okay. Paragraph 10. He says here that most collection work is performed by the afternoon drivers, and mainly after 3 pm, and he talks about, you know, in his experience when correspondence is ready for posting and when customers prefer to have their mail collected. He goes on to say that any collections in the earlier afternoons, generally there are low volumes picked up at that time and that's essentially - he calls it “supplementary”, in other words, non-essential work which the full-timers perform. Do you agree with that?---With the pick-ups at 12 pm onwards, they are a required pick-up. You know, that's our - and most of the mail from the customers is ready, you know, from 1.30, 1 o'clock onwards, from customer-based - it's just - you know, these are - any customer, if they've got their mail ready at 1 o'clock, they'd rather have it picked up at one or two or whatever, around you know, 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, but there is work around those areas. It's just that, you know, the way it's been designed is to have it later, to create
these - - -

PN638

You've been a driver before and you accept that the general preference on the part of the customer is to have a pick-up, their main pick-up, if you like, later in the afternoon, correct?---When I was a driver, most customers - you know, they'd start mail collections from 1 pm onwards.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN639

THE COMMISSIONER: That is the afternoon?---Yes, 1 pm, and not later. He's referring to later, say four or 5 o'clock. We're talking about customer base - so you know, 1 o'clock onwards - - -

PN640

Where does he say that?---Mr - he was saying that.

PN641

Mr Jacobs?---Mr Jacobs, is saying later. Later. I'm just highlighting that there is customers out there that would, you know, appreciate pick-ups around 1 o'clock,
2 o'clock. We've had a couple of customers that, you know, are not using Australia Post now because they wanted pick-ups at 12 o'clock and one wanted them at 1 o'clock, which was highlighted in the previous - earlier in the year. There is businesses out there that, you know, would like to have pick-ups at their given time, 1 pm onwards.

PN642

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, there's just a few final things I'll need to flesh out.

PN643

Mr Henley, I need you to go to tab - actually, I'll come back to this. Let me ask you this; you gave some evidence before lunch about EBA 6 negotiations. Now, as an organiser - and it's not a criticism of you - but as an organiser, you yourself weren't involved in EBA 6 negotiations, correct?---My - myself - - -

PN644

Yourself?--- - - - I was not involved at a national level, no.

PN645

Well, I'm putting to you that, as you say, EBA 6 negotiations took place on a national basis?---And that's - - -

PN646

They were national - - -?---But not at my level. Would have been from secretary upwards and we - right.

PN647

Okay. So you weren't involved?---Federal - - -

PN648

I'm not criticising you, I'm just - - -?---In the actual negotiations, sitting down at a table, no.

PN649

Okay. Can you go to tab 1 of Smith's statement?

PN650

Commissioner, this is the matrix. Now, we've actually got some bigger copies, because I think that's a bit small.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN651

Now, Mr Smith says in his statement that this matrix records - pretty much records the work that's done at the Bayswater Hub and he says that it supports the proposition that during the period of the day that you're referring to, there's just not as much work and there's not as much customer demand. What do you say about that?---You can make a matrix - make matrices up to suit whatever requirements you want that to be set up as. These ones here, they're fulltime positions, and part-time pm. Down here, you know, this - was this printed out back in February, this one?

PN652

No, just stick to the question. Do you say that - do you accept that this accurately records the work that the people are doing and reflects customer demands?
---Going by this matrix, to say that there's no work from 10 am to 12 midday, I don't agree with that, because as we can see through the wages inspection, is that people have been working from, you know, 10, 11 am right through until, you know, the afternoon.

PN653

No, Mr Henley, we won't go back to the wage inspection. We won't - - -?---But that highlights - - -

PN654

Listen, just - - -?--- - - - what this gap is.

PN655

Just wait. We won't go back to the documents, but the wage inspections show that the extended hours the part-timers are working are truly the part-time
hours - - - ?---Well, if there's no - - -

PN656

- - - and they started about two or three - - -?---In your matrix, there is - - -

PN657

- - - or thereabouts - - -

PN658

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley, listen to the question?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN659

MR JACOBS: The analysis you've done shows that the extended hours the part-timers are working are truly, in the main, the part-time hours from mid-afternoon onwards just dealing with the analysis that you did, Mr Henley. Do you agree with that?---Dealing with the analysis I did, there is work between 11 am and right through the rest of the afternoon. That's the analysis I'm dealing with and it's been highlighted in the extra hours that the staff at Bayswater Transport facility have been working, so unless Australia Post is paying those people for nothing, there is work in this gap. In that matrix.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN660

Between - are you referring to the 10 o'clock to the 12 o'clock?---Between 10 and - 10 and 2 pm. 10 am and 2 pm.

PN661

On your document, which is tab 6, your analysis doesn't bear that out, I suggest to you?---I beg your pardon?

PN662

Your analysis - - -?---This - - -

PN663

The analysis you've done at tab 6 - - -?---On page 50?

PN664

Yes?---Yes.

PN665

It doesn't bear out what you say? You agree with that or not?---Well, we've got 11 am finishes, 11.30 am finishes.

PN666

THE COMMISSIONER: Which tab are we on?

PN667

MR JACOBS: It's tab 6 of Mr Henley's statement.

PN668

THE WITNESS: And we've got 11 am to 12.30 pm. Then we've got 11 am
to - - -

PN669

MR JACOBS: Where are you looking now, Mr Henley?---On my tab 6. The one that you pointed out.

PN670

Yes, what page?---On page 50. Right? And if you go right through, you've even got people starting at 1 pm, right?

PN671

What are you pointing to on page 50?---On my - have you got it there?

PN672

I have?---Right. You go “Rostered Hours”, you see up the top, on the left-hand side?

PN673

Yes?---Right. And then “Additional Hours”, in the middle.

PN674

Yes. So you're referring to this - look, you're referring to this window between 10 and 12, for example. Just stick on page 50, and then we'll move away from it. How do you say page 50 bears out the 10 to 12 - - -?---You have got work in those - block. There is work there. Otherwise these people wouldn't be, you know, working after their knock-off time of 11 am.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN675

There's references to Dezioba, Dezioba on page 50. Now, he's the wine run fellow, isn't he?---And - - -

PN676

Just one question at a time?---Yes.

PN677

Is he or is he not the wine run employee?---Going by the duty pages, yes.

PN678

Okay?---Right. So - - -

PN679

Now, Mr Henley, just wait. I think perhaps just finally, the issue of the annual leave relievers - - -?---You've finished with page 50 onwards, have we?

PN680

Just wait for the - - -?---Because the hours that are highlighted there - - -

PN681

Just - - -?---That shows that - - -

PN682

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Henley?---Sorry, Commissioner, but it just - no, he asked the question about this, I'm trying to explain that there is work in that group, then he moves onto something else.

PN683

Yes, because that is his right?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN684

And you have to accept it?---If he asks - - -

PN685

You are being asked the questions - - -?---And I'm giving him the answers.

PN686

- - - and getting very scotty when you can't - - -?---Mm.

PN687

- - - give submissions - - -?---I'm giving - - -

PN688

- - - from the witness box?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN689

You are here as a witness. The witness is to answer the questions?---Yes, Commissioner.

PN690

MR JACOBS: Mr Henley, in your examination-in-chief, you gave some evidence about the annual leave relief issue. You said that in respect of the full-timers, there was 90 weeks - you had to cover about 90 weeks and you said there's only one and it only covers 43 weeks. Do you remember giving that evidence?---That's in this - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN691

No, no, no?--- - - - sheet? Well, that's what I - yes.

PN692

Just before lunch when Ms Doyle was asking you questions, you gave some evidence in relation to the issue of the fulltime annual ALRs, I'll call them, and you said there's 90 weeks to be covered and you said there's only one and that only covers 43 weeks. Do you remember saying that? Giving that evidence?
---One fulltime ALR relief will cover 40 - that - you know, 43 weeks, fulltime.

PN693

THE COMMISSIONER: It's point 17 of your statement if you want to refresh your memory?---Thank you, Commissioner.

PN694

MR JACOBS: Mr Henley - - -?---There it is there.

PN695

Yes. Mr Henley, there's two fulltime ALRs. This is the point. You said
there - - -?---I - - -

PN696

Just a moment. My question is this; you said before lunch in your examination-in-chief that there's only one ALR, so it only covers 43 weeks, but as you say at paragraph 17, there are two fulltime ALRs. Correct?---The - the fulltime - including that, there's two transport - going by - you know, the establishment figures, there's supposed - two ALR relief people there, right? So, you know - - -

PN697

No, come back to the question. You have acknowledged in your statement that there are two fulltime ALRs, so even if - - -?---Two fulltime ALRs - - -

PN698

Let's just work off your figure of 43 weeks, let's assume it's right for a moment, that brings us up to 86 weeks, so it's double what you said to the
Commission - - -?---No, what you're trying to - - -

PN699

- - - before lunch?---What you're trying - what you're trying to turn it around here is, at least four fulltime relievers are required. Only two fulltime ALRs and one fulltime TO were currently provided, right? Is that what you were referring to? Right.

PN700

I'm - yes?---So, you know, what's your - what's the relevance around the two fulltime ALRs?

PN701

I think I'll ask you the question again. Before lunch, you said to the Commission that you have to cover 90 weeks?---Yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY XXN MR JACOBS
PN702

There's only one ALR, so it only covers 43 weeks. Now, I'm just putting to
you - - - ?---43 - yes, one ALR will cover 43 weeks.

PN703

Okay. So there are two ALRs and if it's 43 weeks, you're up around the 90 a week mark?---43 and 43 is 86.

PN704

Okay?---All right?

PN705

It's actually, just to finish on this, isn't it 47 weeks, because it's five weeks of annual leave? Wouldn't that be right?---You've got four weeks at Christmas, which is no - four weeks in December which is no annual leave is allowed, right? So four - four of that is 48, take off five weeks that the ALR's got his own leave. That leaves you with 43. Is that correct? Four weeks you're not allowed to have leave, brings it down to 48. Take off the ALR's five weeks annual leave, brings it down to 43.

PN706

Just a moment. No further questions.

PN707

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Re-examination, Ms Doyle?

PN708

MS DOYLE: I hope this won't be so painful, Commissioner.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DOYLE [3.09PM]

PN709

MS DOYLE: Mr Henley, is it true that hub jobs are basically 15 minutes of work packaged up in a whole myriad of combinations?---Yes.

PN710

Are there ad hocs which Mr Jacobs has referred to, and extra pick-ups that come into the hub from time to time?---Yes. That's correct.

PN711

Now, you have put forward that there are many, many additional hours which are not permanent rostered hours being worked by part-time people at this hub?
---Yes.

PN712

Now, in your evidence you've said between nine and 30 and three-quarters a day in that first month, and in the second period, between one and a quarter and 53 and a quarter hours in one day being worked as additional hours, non-permanent hours. Now, you're putting forward that you believe two hours 21 minutes could be attached to some part-time job?---Some part-time position at Bayswater, yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN713

You're also saying that the evidence that you have given is that there are some hours between 10 and 2 pm that are currently worked now as non-additional - as additional non-permanent hours?---Yes.

PN714

In your opinion, do you think Australia Post would be paying for those hours if there was no work available during 10 and 2 pm?---No.

PN715

So in your evidence you've given an opinion that some customers would like their mail picked up between one and 2 pm, and you have specifically referred to Kilsyth and Bayswater?---That's correct.

PN716

Now, Mr Jacobs has said to you if you take them off part-time 25, that creates other problems. It means that he has an hour less. Now, do you think that hour less, that he could be found some work to do in that hour that has been taken off him?---Yes. With all the current excessive hours being worked, that one hour could be, you know, supplemented by some of them hours.

PN717

Okay. I think you said in your evidence that you believe the part-time jobs were pretty full up?---Yes, they are very tight.

PN718

There was also the issue that Mr Jacobs was suggesting, that Mr Spencer's hours were because he was acting as a PTC3. Now, I would like to ask everyone to turn to the wages inspection and look at - I'm just picking this out, 25 August 2003.

PN719

THE COMMISSIONER: What year, Ms Doyle?

PN720

THE WITNESS: 2005.

PN721

MS DOYLE: 2005.

PN722

THE COMMISSIONER: 25 August?

PN723

MS DOYLE: 2005. Now - - -

PN724

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment, please?

PN725

MS DOYLE: It has one the side, “Split Shift - Part-timers Only - Hub”.

PN726

MR JACOBS: Can I just - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN727

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Just on - - -

PN728

MS DOYLE: Identify it?

PN729

THE COMMISSIONER: No, stop.

PN730

MS DOYLE: Perhaps I could pass my copy up? It's not really related to this particular day - - -

PN731

THE COMMISSIONER: No, just - the 25th of?

PN732

MS DOYLE: August, '05.

PN733

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.

PN734

MS DOYLE: If I could point to Mr Spencer, his hours were 1230 to 2130. When he - - -

PN735

THE COMMISSIONER: Am I looking at the right page? To me this says:

PN736

Duty number 11. 12 o'clock. 2130.

PN737

MS DOYLE: It must be the wrong page. Sorry.

PN738

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon. There's two Spencers, yes.

PN739

MS DOYLE: Yes, Graham Spencer. Okay. So, Mr Henley, when Mr Spencer's hours show up like that, would you expect that that would be the day he was covering Mr Byrne, when he has a straight fulltime roster?---Yes.

PN740

Now, if you go back to your exhibit 6, where the additional hours are listed, or perhaps what would be easier is when we're talking about Mr Spencer's - sorry, exhibit 8, where we're talking just about Mr Spencer?---Yes.

PN741

It's quite probable, when he's working 7-35, he's doing - he's acting in a fulltime position?---Seven hours, 21.

PN742

Yes. That's 7.35 hours that stands for, which is the same as seven hours, 21 minutes. So on the occasions where he's shown as doing - in 6, doing different hours in the morning, working from 4.30 until 9.30 in the morning, and then coming back in the afternoon, he wouldn't be acting in Mr Byrne's job, would he?
---No, he'd be coming back to do probably four or five additional hours, unless it's - unless he's signed on at 12 midday and worked through to 2020 or 2051.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN743

Mr Byrne's job starts at 12.30?---Yes, 12 pm. 12 midday, sorry.

PN744

When there is leave taken because of a long-term illness, compensation, maternity leave, whatever, how would that work be normally filled in a hub?---If we have someone go on annual leave, it will be filled by the annual leave component. If we've go the annual leave component already occupied in a position, someone took a day off sick, the TO would most likely cover that. That's transport orders, or they would try and fill it with part-time employees on split shifts.

PN745

And isn't it true that they also employ agency and fixed-term people to cover this type of leave? And I'd like to show you document 1, provided with the Australia Post submissions.

PN746

MR JACOBS: Sorry, submissions, was it?

PN747

MS DOYLE: I'm not sure what they're called. Your document 1.

PN748

MR JACOBS: The summons, is it? The summons?

PN749

MS DOYLE: Summons. For the summons, yes.

PN750

Now, have you seen that document?---Yes, I have.

PN751

Could you describe how many agency staff and fixed term people have been employed at Bayswater Hub?---Just going by this chart, February to October, agency staff, Bayswater, February - two - three.

PN752

All right. And so the submission put is that while Mr Spencer might act as the PTC3, someone is brought in to backfill his position?---Yes. Someone would have to still fill his position.

PN753

That all these hours need to be taken into account, but do you think that the additional hours that you've listed mean that there's additional permanent work that Australia Post aren't filling with permanent hours?---Yes.

PN754

Just while we're on relieving, Mr Jacobs talked about that there were two ALRs. Now, in your submission, you have stated that you believe that there should be two ALRs and two TOs?---Yes.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN755

Can you explain the ratio of TOs in a hub?---Basically in a hub, the one in - one TPO per 10 positions, and we've got 18 positions there. I think it works out at 10, so we should therefore have two TOs and two annual leave relief to cover the - to the numbers.

PN756

Okay. So Mr Jacobs has put forward witness material that says that absenteeism is extremely high in Bayswater; is that true, to your knowledge?---Well, without going through the attendance sheets, I don't believe that there is a severe attendance problem at Bayswater Transport Hub.

PN757

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you know if there's a severe - - -?---No, your Honour.

PN758

- - - absentee problem?---No, Commissioner.

PN759

MS DOYLE: Would it be true to say that this would be an issue mentioned in transport JCCs, if for some reason Bayswater was seen as being extremely bad with absenteeism?---Yes, they do bring those matters into the JCCs, where attendance is being discussed at various sites.

PN760

So your submission is that you don't believe there are enough relievers at Bayswater. Do you believe that part-time people should be providing the relief, and why don't you think part-time people can provide the relief - - -

PN761

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Doyle - - -

PN762

MS DOYLE: Sorry. Well, it's pretty obvious if it's a written submission, isn't it?

PN763

THE COMMISSIONER: I think you have blundered monumentally in asking the question and answering it.

PN764

MS DOYLE: Okay.

PN765

THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps if you ask - - -

PN766

MS DOYLE: Break it into - - -

PN767

THE COMMISSIONER: I think so.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN768

MS DOYLE: Think so. Right.

PN769

THE COMMISSIONER: Because the second question may not arise, depending on the answer.

PN770

MS DOYLE: Okay. So, Mr Henley, do you think there are enough relievers at Bayswater Hub?---Currently, no.

PN771

Do you believe part-time people should be used to provide relief?---Part-time people are employed to do their contracted hours. Therefore, they should be - relief components - - -

PN772

They've already got a job?---Yes, they've got a job and if they were to be used, to be put up the fulltime relieving component.

PN773

Okay. So what you're saying is a part-time person has a job. If he's going to be a reliever, he needs to step up to a fulltime position, if it's a fulltime relief. Can he do a part-time relief?---I think they have a - they're supposed to have a TO on the part-time morning jobs and one on the afternoon.

PN774

Okay?---They're supposed to cover for that.

PN775

Do you think it's fair that part-time people should be made to work four hours in the morning and then do a fulltime job in the afternoon after a break?---I think that's unfair. That's - you know - - -

PN776

And do you think it's feasible that they do four hours in the morning, have a six-hour lunchbreak and do four hours in the afternoon?---No. No.

PN777

Mr Jacobs raised the issue that meal breaks have nothing to do with this issue, when we highlighted someone who hadn't been - taken a meal break after six and more hours. In your experience, to your knowledge, talking to our part-time members, do they take tea breaks, lunch breaks?---No. Their jobs are purely designed - if it's a four-hour job, you start at, say, 9 o'clock and you finish at 1 pm. There is no tea break, there is no lunch - a five-hour job has not even got a lunch break in it either.

PN778

So if they do additional hours, they don't get a break?---No.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN779

They just do the additional hours?---They just come back and do the additional hours.

PN780

Do you believe the pace of work for the part-time people at Bayswater is too heavy?---Yes.

PN781

Do you think they're given adequate time to get from one duty to the next duty?
---What I found with part-time positions is that they cram as much work as they can into the hours that they are performing, from four hours - a four-hour job, they will work those four hours and they just keep trying to add more and more to the positions.

PN782

Okay?---And I do believe that they are, you know, put under, you know, a fair amount of pressure in the job that they do.

PN783

Right. We talked about the wine run and I think we got - I think everybody has agreed that the wine run does finish at different times, and the evidence is here before us that sometimes it finishes at 11.30, 12, 12.30?---Yes.

PN784

Was your submission that that wine run could do the pick-ups from Kilsyth and Bayswater?---Could be tacked onto the end of that after they come back from the wine run, have a meal break and then do the Bayswater/Kilsyth LPOs.

PN785

Do you think it matters that Kilsyth and Bayswater are picked up at the same time of the early morning, going into around, say, the 12 to 1.30 period?---Whether it'll bother the LPOs?

PN786

Yes?---No, not at all. They would like to have an earlier pick-up, around the 12 o'clock mark, 12 till - 12, 1.30, 1 o'clock.

PN787

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just ask you where you get that evidence from?
---I've spoken to both proprietors, that you know - - -

PN788

So you're talking about two LPOs, not all of them?---Yes. Most of the - - -

PN789

MS DOYLE: No. No, just the Kilsyth and - - -

PN790

THE COMMISSIONER: Just - I'm asking the questions.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN791

MS DOYLE: Sorry.

PN792

THE WITNESS: The particular two, Bayswater and Kilsyth LPO.

PN793

THE COMMISSIONER: You just said the LPOs would like to have an
earlier - - - ?---Sorry, those two.

PN794

But you just mean those two?---Those two LPOs, yes, Commissioner. I'm sorry.

PN795

MS DOYLE: Yes. So I felt that this point hadn't - wasn't clear. I knew what you meant, but I didn't think it was getting over. So the - take for example the wine run comes back at 11.30 one day; is it possible he could take his lunch for half an hour?---Yes.

PN796

As you've given evidence before, lunch breaks can be of a variety of periods of time?---Yes, you can - but not - over the extended periods - - -

PN797

They're not split shifts?---No.

PN798

Lunch breaks, but not split shifts?---Yes, the half an hour - - -

PN799

Is that right?---Yes.

PN800

So I think that point is clear. With the Array job, do you believe Kilsyth and Bayswater could be completed by the person doing the Array job at the time that Kilsyth and Bayswater want their mail collected?---Yes.

PN801

Just to clarify another point that I got completely confused on, we were talking about clearing street posting boxes, and could you explain the difference in the amount of mail that would be in a street posting box between a quarter to nine and 2.20? Can you explain the ebb and flow of - well, the build-up of mail in a street posting box?---The only thing street - between, say, quarter to nine and even up to, say, 11 am, there wouldn't be that much of a volume in there, but from 11 am onwards, the volume grows because of the lunchtime postings, companies start - could now - mail they've got ready, we have a lot of customers that are coming in out of the LPOs which do most of their bulk postings from there. So, you know, from 11 am onwards, those SPB boxes do get sufficient mail in them to be cleared, to alleviate the heaviness of them being cleared after 2.30.

PN802

Okay. And another point on the matrix. Now, everyone has the matrix. Is it your understanding that this is a recording of what really happens, or is it a recording of what management are trying to plan the jobs around?---This matrix here would be - going by this, it'd be some of the jobs that are already in place and this is the matrix that they would ideally love to have in place at Bayswater.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN803

Put another way - - -?---To keep - to keep that gap between 10 and two.

PN804

Okay. To put it another way, do your time and wages inspection results sit happily with that matrix?---No. Because they've got nothing between 10 and 12 here, or even 10 to two underneath the full-timers, and yet I've highlighted that there is work from 11 am right through.

PN805

Right?---To past 2 pm.

PN806

You're not suggesting that most of the work falls between 10 and two? I understand your submission to be that there - well, how much work? Is there enough work for one person between those times?---Yes, there would be. My times and hours statement there highlights that fact.

PN807

Just a little bit about consultation and this is going way back. You were a transport organiser - sorry, you were a transport officer, postal transport officer?
---Yes.

PN808

At the time the hubs were set up you chose to go to a hub rather than a transport depot?---Yes, that's correct.

PN809

Was there any consultation on the fact that hub jobs would be part-time into the future?---No. We weren't advised of that at all.

PN810

Since you've been a transport organiser, has there been any consultation on a whole restructure of the transport hubs with a view to saying they will only be part-time into the future?---No. Part-time into the future?

PN811

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, can I just - I'm not wanting to get bogged down, but this doesn't arise.

PN812

THE COMMISSIONER: No, it doesn't arise.

PN813

MS DOYLE: It doesn't arise? Okay

PN814

Just to move to the specifics, we had tab 12 which was Mr Humble's letter to the union office. Do you recall when that letter came in, there was some - basically it was difficult to work out because - - -

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN815

MR JACOBS: I don't believe this - - -

PN816

MS DOYLE: Okay, I'm just trying to say - - -

PN817

Was it clear that there was some wrong information in that letter?---That's the one that - - -

PN818

I'll pass it up for you?---I think I had it here somewhere. I have that, thanks.

PN819

THE COMMISSIONER: Whereabouts is Mr Humble's letter?

PN820

MS DOYLE: It's in this white book - - -

PN821

MR JACOBS: It's tab 12 to Mr Smith's - - -

PN822

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Smith?

PN823

MS DOYLE: Do you recall this letter came into the union office?---Yes.

PN824

You made an attempt to understand what it meant?---Yes, of the changes that it was trying to implement, yes.

PN825

Do you believe it's impossible to understand what it meant unless you had the duty boards?---Yes. Unless I actually had the actual duty boards in front of me and saying, “This is going from this” or “This is what we're doing”, it's just hard to surmise, just off that one letter what they intended to do with the work. Or the changes.

PN826

Your evidence is - when did the union office receive the duty boards?---Some time after that.

PN827

But it wasn't before the changes occurred?---No. They - we had this letter and the changes were going to occur, then they said they'd taken effect on such and such a date, and once they've been changed, then we got receipt of the duty boards. Which is - - -

PN828

Regarding consultation on whether Post logistics or sprint pack work would no longer be delivered by our own drivers, but given to contractors, do you recall any consultation on that matter whatsoever?---No. No.

**** BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY RXN MS DOYLE
PN829

Are you familiar with - you tabled the EBA here. Are you familiar with the clauses on contracting out of work - - -

PN830

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, what - I must say, this is just not relevant. I mean, there is specific reference in Mr Henley's statement. There's a suggestion that the work - some additional work could be the Post logistics work, but it's common ground that the bulk of it is being done by parcel contractors, and that's the issue. There's no utility, with respect, to going back into the past of the circumstances of the contract being allocated to sprint pack or Post logistics. It's not relevant, with respect.

PN831

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I agree with you, Mr Jacobs.

PN832

MS DOYLE: Is it true that sprint pack and Post logistics work is still done by our drivers in many places?---Some of our work. We do some of our work, but I can't recall which division, which facilities.

PN833

Well, I think that I am about finished with you, Mr Henley, but perhaps if we could just return briefly to the summary of the wages inspection? You were trying to discuss the work that's done between 10 am and - - -

PN834

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, which tab?

PN835

MS DOYLE: It's 6 in the CEPUs book.

PN836

So there are 20 pages, but we don't want you to take us through all of them, but you've actually had a look at the work that's available. These are additional hours, they're non-permanent hours and you have established that there is work between 10 and 2 pm?---Yes. That's correct.

PN837

Thank you.

PN838

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, Mr Henley. You can step down?
---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.40PM]

PN839

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, could we call Mr Heenan.

PN840

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN841

MS DOYLE: Mr Henley can stay?

PN842

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

<PETER JAMES HEENAN, SWORN [3.41PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOYLE

PN843

MS DOYLE: Mr Heenan, can you state your name and address for the record?
---Peter James Heenan (address supplied).

PN844

Have you prepared a witness statement for this matter?---I had.

PN845

Have you got a copy of that witness statement?---I should have.

PN846

I can give you one. Okay?---Mm.

PN847

Is it dated 21 October and consists of nine paragraphs?---Yes.

PN848

Is this statement true and correct?---Yes.

PN849

I'd like to tender that witness statement.

EXHIBIT #D6 STATEMENT OF PETER JAMES HEENAN

PN850

MS DOYLE: Mr Heenan, you're the shop steward at Bayswater Transport Hub?
---That's correct.

PN851

Now, I'd like to take you to your understanding of the consultation that occurred back - it's a long time ago now - back about the February changes. Did you think that that was adequate consultation?---No, not at the time, because I put a disputes notice in about it.

PN852

Okay.

PN853

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, what time was that?

PN854

MS DOYLE: The - it was early February.

PN855

THE COMMISSIONER: Of 2005?

PN856

MS DOYLE: Five, yes.

PN857

I understand that some time prior to that, management came out and tool-boxed the drivers. Could you give us an impression of what that tool-box was like?
---Kevin Bland came out and told - before - at Christmas time, right on Christmas, and told us that in the New Year that we will be losing one fulltime job and one part-time job from in the morning.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN858

Were the drivers happy?---Not at all.

PN859

Did you ever see the full duty boards relating to those changes before you put in the dispute notice?---No.

PN860

When intervention happened at the state level, can you recall Paul Vesevich mentioning the duty boards to you?---I only saw the duty boards after I put the disputes notice in.

PN861

Okay. So would it be fair to say that you only got the duty boards because the union office had complained about it?---Yes.

PN862

Now, do you believe that full-time jobs at Bayswater hub are under threat?---I believe so. In myself I believe so, yes.

PN863

Okay. When these two jobs went, the fulltime and the part-time one, quite soon after, a new duty was added; is that correct?---That's right.

PN864

Duty 30?---Yes.

PN865

Now, you have also said that - in your witness statement, you're saying that you believe the work rate has increased over time for part-time people. Can you just tell us your impressions of, you know, how hard the part-time people work?---The part-time people don't have much time to do anything. They just sort of - they go out to their customers, they pick up their customers, they come back, they off-load, and they're racing around. I've had a couple of them tell me that they haven't even got time to - when do you fill your van up with fuel? And I said, “Well, if you're not happy with it”, I said, “put it in your issues register” and after that, I've got no idea what they've done to it because they want to keep their full - their job.

PN866

Okay. Generally speaking, do the part-time people get a tea break or a lunchbreak if they work additional hours?---The morning people, if they work additional hours, they have probably a three-hour to four-hour lunchbreak, and if the afternoon people work extended hours, they can work six and a half hours without a break.

PN867

Right. So you're saying some people get a huge lunchbreak which we would contend - the union would characterise as a split shift, but while they're doing their own duty plus additional hours, they don't take any breaks?---No. They work six and a half hours, seven hours straight without a break.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN868

Can I perhaps, just to elaborate this point about the part-time workers, pass up some part-time duties? Perhaps if we could just go through, to get a flavour of the pace of work. Would you like to highlight, as a driver, what you would find difficult doing with part-time 13 duty?---Well, when you signed on at 6 o'clock, you have 15 minutes to check your van and there's no - to me, there's no time allowed to fill your van up, by the time they've got to get from Bayswater up to Emerald, by 6.20 - 6.40. You know, if your van needs fuel, there's no time to fill it up. And after - once you get to Emerald, you're on the go all the time up until virtually your sign-off time.

PN869

Okay. That's a four-hour position?---Yes.

PN870

Okay. Would you like to move to part-time duty 14?

EXHIBIT #D7 PART-TIME DUTIES DOCUMENT

PN871

MS DOYLE: Would you like to explain - - -?---Just from duty 14, part-time 14, from 7.40 onwards to 9.50, I believe you know, there's excessive customer pick-ups for around that area, that time of the morning because the roads are normally bumper-to-bumper.

PN872

I'll just do a quick count. So there's 21 bases that the person has to go, between 7.40 and 9.50?---Yes.

PN873

In fact, he has to get back to the Bayswater Transport Hub by 9.50?---That's correct, and that time in the morning, Ferntree Gully Road is bumper-to-bumper.

PN874

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, which one are you on?---Part-time 14.

PN875

MS DOYLE: So goes to Ferntree Gully DC and Food Services - - -

PN876

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. I can see all those.

PN877

MS DOYLE: Can you just describe - - -

PN878

THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment. So then the last one is the Angus Fire Armour and then back, 9.50, at the hub. Is that what you're referring to?

PN879

MS DOYLE: Yes.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN880

THE WITNESS: That's correct, yes.

PN881

MS DOYLE: If it was a matter of just pulling into the loading bay or something and people chuck stuff in your van - - - ?---Yes, one tub of mail is fine, but quite often, you know, there's - there's a whole heap of mail. These are all deliveries, but in the afternoons they're pick-ups and then sometimes, you know, you pick up 100-odd kilograms of mail from some customers.

PN882

Right, and sometimes you might have to wait for the customers?---Yes. Definitely.

PN883

THE COMMISSIONER: How often do you wait for customers?---Probably 50 per cent of the time, 50 per cent of the customers, you have to wait for them because they're not ready. You get there and they say, “Oh, that time of the day already?” And, yes.

PN884

And you just wait until they're ready?---Yes, because if you say anything, you get into trouble.

PN885

MS DOYLE: Also, with deliveries, which we're talking about deliveries now, sometimes it would be hard to get into the facility?---Especially in the Ferntree Gully Delivery Centre because they have contractors there and they seem to rule the roost down there and there has been some complaints about - from the delivery - our delivery drivers about the contractors not making room for us to get into there, into the Ferntree Gully.

PN886

THE COMMISSIONER: Have you ever raised these issues?---They've been raised.

PN887

Well, who with?---The morning overseer.

PN888

How long ago?---12 months ago.

PN889

And have they been followed up?---Probably not, no.

PN890

So they're not a burning issue?---Well, depends on who does the job.

PN891

MS DOYLE: Perhaps - the - would it be fair to characterise that people may complain, but there's nothing done so people give up complaining?

PN892

MR JACOBS: Well, this is just leading, gross leading, Commissioner.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN893

MS DOYLE: Sorry. I withdraw that, then.

PN894

THE COMMISSIONER: Absolutely.

PN895

MS DOYLE: Just with the difficulties of making deliveries, say you go to Ferntree Delivery Centre, is it quite possible that the mail wouldn't be sorted by that time of the morning?---I can't answer that because I don't do the jobs.

PN896

All right. Do you want to say anything else about that duty? That was part-time 14, before we move onto - - -?---No, just move on.

PN897

All right. Part-time 24?---Yes. There was one driver that used to do that job, that couldn't manage to do the customers in the time allotted on the duty board.

PN898

Right. So did she try to do the duty - - -?---She tried to do the duty board - she tried to do the duty by the duty board time, she couldn't do it, because of - - -

PN899

How long did she try for?---Probably a good month, I suppose.

PN900

All right. Why would it be hard to fit in the time available?---Just the distance in between the customers. The amount of volume of mail that comes out from the customers, waiting on customers, you know, to be ready. So yes.

PN901

Okay. Do you want to say anything else about PT 24?---Well, just say - look, sometimes there's not enough time allowed for the customer - mail to, you know, they give us five minutes or a couple of minutes to load the mail, but on some occasions, it could take you up to 20 minutes to load the van full of mail.

PN902

Just because there's so much of it?---Just because there's so much mail.

PN903

Would it be fair to say that your mail - when you say mail, that means letters, but it also means parcels?---And parcels, yes. Sorry.

PN904

Could you say whether any of that mail has increased over this latest period?
---From my perspective, yes. The duties what I do, yes, and some of part-time duty 28 has increased as well.

PN905

Just speaking generally, I understand Australia Post's parcel facility is booming and the parcel business is booming? Would you have any knowledge of that?
---Yes. Australia Post send out an Australia Post journal and they tell us how much their parcels and mails have increased over the last year.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN906

THE COMMISSIONER: Parcels and mail?---And mail, yes. I got the - some of the Post journal here. I think the mails have increased 1.2 per cent and the parcels, 3.4 per cent.

PN907

MS DOYLE: Right. So when you're talking parcels, either you pick them up from a delivery centre and then you go and deliver them to customers and vice versa? You pick them up from customers and go and deliver them back to the hub?---The main duty of the transport staff in the afternoon is to pick up customer mail and parcels, bring them back to the hubs and then off-load it into ULDs.

PN908

So would it be fair to say that the number of parcels has increased?---Definitely.

PN909

All right. Do you want to look at part-time 25? Now, this is the one that has the Kilsyth Licensed Post Office and the Bayswater Village Post Office on it. Do you want to make any comment about part-time 25?---I know for a fact Kilsyth and Bayswater LPO owners aren't very happy with the later pick-up because of the mail volumes in the back of the - well, Bayswater's in the front of the store and then Kilsyth is out the back of the store. They would like their earlier pick-up back. Croydon, there's often empty mail tubs left behind, then we've got to try and put them on at 5 o'clock and I know they're not happy about doing that. The bags out the front of Croydon Post Office, they're probably - there's probably about maybe 30 kilograms of mail in each - in a couple of bags that are there, in the triple-hanging box.

PN910

Right. So do you have any comments about part-time 25? It starts at 1.30 and it leaves the hub at quarter to two?---All I can is that it probably needs to be an earlier start time for that one, to alleviate the problem at Kilsyth and Bayswater. And when you get over the page - no. Say from 3 o'clock onwards, it's quite heavy. There's a lot of customers on it.

PN911

Perhaps could pass up the evidence that's been tendered by Mr Spencer? Is that acceptable? I would take you to clauses 19 and 20. Now, it's quite possible that Mr Spencer doesn't know about the complaint there, isn't it, or - - -

PN912

MR JACOBS: Which complaint? With respect, that's not a proper question.

PN913

MS DOYLE: All right. Well, Mr Spencer says:

PN914

I'm unaware of any complaints or issues having been raised by anyone from Kilsyth LPO.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN915

I suppose my first question is, are you aware of a complaint from Kilsyth LPO?
---Only to me personally.

PN916

All right. If an LPO operator had a complaint, are there a variety of people in Australia Post they could complain to?---I told the manager of Kilsyth LPO to speak to their area manager about getting an earlier pick-up. If they're having any problems, tell their area manager and hopefully they'll get it fixed up.

PN917

People often ring 13 13 18, I believe?---I've got no idea.

PN918

The complaint line?---No, but that's not to the area manager, though, is it?

PN919

No. No. Well, an LPO manager would be in touch with a business centre on a regular basis?---Now, I've got no idea. Yes, possibly. Yes.

PN920

Now, the next paragraph is talking about Bayswater Village LPO. Are you aware of any complaints from them about the time they get their mail picked up?
---When their 1 o'clock pick-up was first taken off that duty, I happened to pick up the mail at 5 o'clock and Leon was definitely complaining about his later pick-up to me and I told him to ring his area manager.

PN921

Right. Perhaps if we could go down to paragraph 23? This refers to the street posting boxes outside the LPO. Is that correct? No, sorry, I think - I'm looking at a statement from - sorry, it's in 19. This is about street posting boxes at Kilsyth LPO. So this is Mr Spencer's evidence that the boxes get cleared at 8.45 am each day. Would you think that's a useful thing to do, at 8.45 am?---I think any little help is gratefully appreciated because the boxes do get fairly heavy.

PN922

Okay. Would you think you'd get more mail in it if you picked it up at 12 noon or 1 pm?---Definitely. Definitely more mail at - yes.

PN923

What do you think would be the situation if it's not picked up until two, 2.20?
---Well, you'd have extra mail in it and it'd be extra-heavy.

PN924

Is there anything else you wanted to say about part-time 25?---All I can say is that part-time 25 is run off his feet and I really think the duty board needs to be timed to reflect on the customer pick-ups and - yes, I just think he's flustered every time he comes in. A lot of the times.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN925

Who does duty 25 at the moment?---It's Mark Reggaldi, I don't know his - he's only been there about a month and I've been away. I've only been back about a week. I know his name's Mark.

PN926

If you took work off that duty, obviously that would leave him vulnerable to him losing some part? Management have suggested one hour of that person's duty. How would you - do you think there is any other work available for that part-time duty?---Well, I think you'd have to look at part-time 24 and part-time 28 and put on the work of - to 25, and there's part-time 29 as well, which isn't submitted.

PN927

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, just go through those again?---I'd take some work off part-time 24 and part-time 28 and put it onto part-time 25, if work was taken off. Some work can be taken off part-time 29 as well, but I didn't submit that one.

PN928

MS DOYLE: Okay. Management would say, well, it depends what hour of the day that that work needs to be done. Are you confident that there's work at this time of the day that needs to be done?---Well, management tell the customers what time they get their pick-ups.

PN929

Okay. So just taking you to the last part-time duty, where all the experts on Bayswater Hub work. This is part-time 28. Is there any problems with that in terms of - I understand you're suggesting - we're looking at these duties to see whether they are reasonable times?---No, part-time is unrealistic times to be completed - - -

PN930

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, which one are we at?---Yes, part-time 28 has got unrealistic times for the customers, to be picked up. And - - -

PN931

MS DOYLE: Can you explain that a bit more?---Well, there's a lot of customers. There's one - let's see. I think it's that one.

PN932

We're on part-time 28?---Yes, I'm just looking. Sorry. Yes, there's a lot of work on it, on these duties. I thought this one had Adept Mailing on it, it might be on the other one, but - - -

PN933

I think it does; 3.15, so it starts - the duty starts at 3.15, Bayswater Transport Hub?---3.15.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN934

It goes Schemick Metals?---Yes.

PN935

Spotlight - - -?---Spotlight, yes, Adept Mailing. They - they can - - -

PN936

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, what did you say?---Adept Mailing. A-d-e-p-t Mailing.

PN937

I see?---They can have over 100 kilograms of mail at a pick-up at a time, easy, and it - it takes half a dozen of us, you know, a couple of minutes to offload the van when she comes back and she's got to load the van herself.

PN938

MS DOYLE: Right. This part-time duty starts at 1.15 to 6.45, so generally there's part-time duties morning and afternoon, aren't there, but this one starts at 1.15?---Yes. I've got 6.30 it's finished here. No, 1845. No, you're right, sorry.

PN939

THE COMMISSIONER: So this starts at 1.15 and finished at quarter to seven?
---Yes.

PN940

MS DOYLE: Does that person have a break?---Not to my knowledge, no.

PN941

THE COMMISSIONER: No, that - can that be correct, Ms Doyle?

PN942

MS DOYLE: Yes, I think it's our general submission that part-time people aren't allowed breaks and their whole hours they're paid are all working hours, and that the tendency is, is if they get additional hours, they'll keep working.

PN943

THE COMMISSIONER: So you're telling me this part-time position of five and a half hours, if they extended, they would extend without a break?---Yes.

PN944

MS DOYLE: Some do, and I think the time and wages inspection shows that that's the case.

PN945

THE COMMISSIONER: It's a continuation.

PN946

MS DOYLE: We just highlighted one person before, but - - -

PN947

THE COMMISSIONER: That was Mr Spencer?

PN948

MS DOYLE: Yes, but hopefully when - no, it was Ian Cloak.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN949

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon. Mr Cloak, yes.

PN950

MS DOYLE: Yes, and perhaps when we're cross-examining Mr Spencer, we can ask about some other people.

PN951

THE WITNESS: Duty 28 is Val Jones, and sometimes when she starts, she works all the way through without a break. She starts at 12 o'clock when he does extended hours, without a break, up until her knock-off time.

PN952

THE COMMISSIONER: So she'll commence early, rather than extend later?
---Yes, yes. She'll cover the first part of a 12 o'clock start, and then she'll continue on with her job, whatever time she gets back.

PN953

Why does she start at 12 o'clock?---Just to cover a fulltime position or if someone's sick, she might cover the first half of a fulltime position.

PN954

How often would that happen?---Not that often. Not that often.

PN955

Once a month?---No. Once every three months maybe.

PN956

Once every three months? I see?---Maybe, yes.

PN957

MS DOYLE: Perhaps we could pass you up our exhibits from Mr Henley. Mr Henley has done a time and wages inspection and you are aware of that?
---Yes.

PN958

If you turn to tab 6? First, perhaps, just from your own knowledge, are you aware of a number of part-time workers who work extensive additional hours?---Yes.

PN959

Who would you think they might be? I'm not asking you to be exact, just - - -?
---Adrian Roberts, Michael Dixon, Beth Gatsby, Val Jones, Dave Lansell - - -

PN960

MR JACOBS: Can you just take it one at a time?

PN961

THE WITNESS: Sorry.

PN962

MR JACOBS: Just slow down a tad? There was Roberts and Dixon?

PN963

THE WITNESS: No. Adrian Roberts, Michael Dixon, Val Jones, Anthony Dezioba, that's a few. Ian Cloak.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN964

MS DOYLE: All right. So am I right in thinking that it's fairly normal practice for the part-timers to do extensive, non-permanent hours, additional hours in overtime?---Yes, there's a lot of that goes on.

PN965

THE COMMISSIONER: What do you call extensive, Mr Heenan?---Well, they get the opportunity a lot to - well, do split shifts. You know, work in the morning and work in the afternoon, or work extended hours past their normal working contract time.

PN966

Yes, but you said, yes, there's quite a few and you mentioned the names in particular who work extensive hours. I just want to know, do you mean - can you explain to me what you mean by extensive?---Well, my extensive hours is they do - they work split shifts a lot and extensive hours, I mean, over the whole day, if - some start at 6 o'clock in the morning, finish at 10 o'clock, come back to work, start at two and then finish at 6 o'clock, so it makes it a 12-hour day which is exorbitant, in my - you know, like split with family life, their own personal life and just life in general. You know, it's - I know they can say no, but it's just - it's - I just feel like it's extensive, a lot.

PN967

MS DOYLE: We have talked about - well, we haven't talked about it, but I'd like to bring your attention to the wine run. Are you familiar with that duty board, PT 23? We could find it?---No, not really. No.

PN968

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Heenan said he's not really familiar with it.

PN969

THE WITNESS: I know it's basically finish about 11 o'clock, but the guys are always there, half past 12 to 1 o'clock, on three, four days a week.

PN970

MS DOYLE: Perhaps I could refer you to tab 2, just so that you can see - I think you've answered my question, I haven't even asked it, is the hours Mr Dezioba works as additional hours are tacked onto his normal four-hour roster, is that true, looking from - from your own experience?---From my own experience, yes. I come in and sign on at work and he's quite often there. As I say, three, four times a week he's there, offloading the wine.

PN971

THE COMMISSIONER: What time do you start, Mr Heenan?---12 o'clock.

PN972

MS DOYLE: With the other people that you mentioned, why are they doing split shifts, in terms of why is the work available there and no one else is covering the work?---Obviously they haven't got enough employees or the pick-up of the mails there extra - I've got no idea. Obviously, they haven't got enough employees employed there, to cover the jobs.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN973

Do you believe there should be additional relief staff at Bayswater?---Definitely.

PN974

Do you believe that Australia Post's Enterprise Agreement contains a clause where the underlying hours are supposed to be honoured with rostered hours?---I believe that's what it says in the EBA, yes.

PN975

Are you familiar with a term called “churning”?---Only butter. I'm sorry. No.

PN976

No? Okay. So perhaps if we go back to this exhibit 6? Do you want to just have a look at those pages? Take your time and just see if you can understand why part-time people who are contracted for four hours are actually working so many additional hours?

PN977

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, I just wonder at the utility of this, given that Mr Henley has already given evidence about it? We've already heard a lot about it.

PN978

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN979

MR JACOBS: I really, in my respectful submission, there's no point to this and it just turns on Mr Henley's evidence and the evidence of the Australia Post witnesses.

PN980

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I tend to agree with you, Mr Jacobs, but I'll hear Ms Doyle on it.

PN981

MS DOYLE: Commissioner, I think that the point is that Mr Heenan works at this place and knows many of the runs, if not is - he would have gone - over the time because he rotates around every run and every facility, he would understand the situation much better than Mr Henley does and therefore I'm just establishing that non-permanent additional hours are being worked by people who are only contracted for four or five hours, and that that happens as a matter of course, that that's a very common occurrence. The real issue is that Australia Post's submission was that Mr Spencer was in an abnormal situation because he was acting as a PTC3 and I'm just trying to hear Mr Heenan on whether other people do very similar things to what we're showing that Mr Spencer does.

PN982

MR JACOBS: Commissioner.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN983

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?

PN984

MR JACOBS: The document speaks for itself. I mean, it does show that, yes, there's Mr Spencer, but there are some others as well.

PN985

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN986

MR JACOBS: It's not in dispute.

PN987

MS DOYLE: Okay.

PN988

MR JACOBS: So at this late juncture in the day, it's really - there's really no point to it, in my submission.

PN989

MS DOYLE: All right. Mr Heenan, are you concerned, as the shop steward, about the conditions under which the part-time workers work?---Definitely. I feel like they've got too much work on their plates to handle and I feel - I see them rushing around, you know, loading, unloading the vans and running around. They're virtually on - running.

PN990

Right, and are you concerned that they don't have tea breaks and lunchbreaks, when the award requires them to have then?---Yes.

PN991

Have you any knowledge of people starting their next shift after working overtime, without having a 10-hour break?---Can you please elaborate on that?

PN992

It was pretty longwinded, wasn't it?---No, no.

PN993

Well, perhaps if you could have a look at the tab 8 which is the hours Mr Spencer has worked for the last approximately eight months. Do those hours surprise you?---Yes.

PN994

THE COMMISSIONER: Could I just raise one issue here? I don't mean to be rude personally, but isn't Mr Spencer a bit unusual, insofar as he's had a PT position, but he has been acting in another position for several months?

PN995

MS DOYLE: Well, perhaps we need evidence from Mr Heenan on that point.

PN996

The PTC3 at Bayswater is Gerry Byrne?---That's correct.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN997

Right. How often would Mr Byrne be absent for the whole day, over those eight months?---For the first few months he was off every day because he had a back operation, but over the last couple of weeks since I've been there, he's been coming in maybe three, four hours a day.

PN998

Perhaps we could tender from our subpoena the list of hours taken - sorry. List of leave hours at Bayswater. You might be able to find -

PN999

Commissioner, we did start off with three copies. Here is another one.

PN1000

THE COMMISSIONER: No, that's kind, thank you. I have - - -

PN1001

MS DOYLE: You have one?

PN1002

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. This was the documentation which Australia Post provided? Yes.

PN1003

MS DOYLE: That's right.

EXHIBIT #D8 DOCUMENTATION PROVIDED BY AUSTRALIA POST

PN1004

MS DOYLE: So, Mr Byrne features there and it can be seen that he has had some leave, but that often, for the last couple of months, would you say that he's only absent for a short period of time?---That's what it says on this record here.

PN1005

THE COMMISSIONER: Could you just explain to me how this report works? It's either late in the day or I'm missing something. On the left-hand side, there's 1 through to 305, on the last page. It then has the employee number, the name. Do I take it that the leave record has been compiled - no, I can't tell how it has been compiled. Can you explain it for me, please?

PN1006

MS DOYLE: It's just by employee, it lists all the leave that they have had, and H says what the leave is about.

PN1007

THE COMMISSIONER: I see. But why is it in this order?

PN1008

MS DOYLE: Maybe the ATS number? That's their employment number, column A.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN1009

THE COMMISSIONER: No, they don't - could Australia Post please explain this to me?

PN1010

MR JACOBS: I'm just taking some instructions on that.

PN1011

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you, Mr Jacobs.

PN1012

MR JACOBS: Ms Doyle is right, it's column A, so it's the relevant number, Commissioner.

PN1013

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I know, but why is Mr McKiernan listed at slot number 1 and then Mr Byrne has been referred to, and that's slot 27. Was this compiled because relief was sought from a certain date, and it was then the date that went forward?

PN1014

MS DOYLE: No. Commissioner, it's just that Mr McKiernan's number is an earlier number than Mr Byrne's number. His employee number.

PN1015

THE COMMISSIONER: So in fact what I should do is group from 1 to 5 relating to - well, it's in 2 to 5, actually, relating to McKiernan, and that shows all his leave from 11 March to 23 August 2005?

PN1016

MR JACOBS: That's right, I'm instructed, Commissioner.

PN1017

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. So then if you take Mr Byrne, just on that first - over to 68 on the next page, that would cover the period for 12 September 2005 from - I beg your pardon. From 15 February 2005 through to 12 September 2005? Some of these dates in here are prospective, so do I take it that's where people have put in leave applications that have already been approved and that's forward planning? And from this document, it enables Australia Post, from column K which is the leave amount, it shows them the relief requirements that are required?

PN1018

MR JACOBS: Apparently it's not used for that, Commissioner. It just shows the absence, Commissioner, at column A.

PN1019

THE COMMISSIONER: It shows the absence for that particular line?

PN1020

MR JACOBS: That's right.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN1021

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So, Mr McKiernan, in the first line, is - Bayswater, he does all sorts of things. Then RL?

PN1022

MR JACOBS: Recreational leave.

PN1023

THE COMMISSIONER: Recreational leave. All right. He took that from 11 March to 12 April, and that was equivalent to 147 hours? Yes.

PN1024

MR JACOBS: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1025

THE COMMISSIONER: So then when you get other ones, for example, Mr Byrne, if you go down further, is this - and finally, Mr Heenan, we get back to you because on these documents it shows that on several days, he was absent for 1.85 hours and another one, 2.35. So you're saying that he has been in some of the time?---That's correct.

PN1026

And that as part of, do you know, his return to work program?---No, I don't.

PN1027

Yes, but you do know that he has been not working full shifts, but reduced hours?
---Yes, that's where we get back to Mr Spencer and his time coming in.

PN1028

Right. Now, Ms Doyle, I think I have it under control. I'm sorry, where were you?

PN1029

MS DOYLE: I think I'm back at 6, which is the coloured tag 6, and looking at those additional hours. So when Mr Spencer is listed as, in some cases he does a split shift, it's unlikely he's covering for Mr Byrne, or is it likely or not likely he's covering for Mr Byrne, for his - PTC3 is in the office? Is that my understanding of what a PTC3 does, supervising?---That's correct, yes.

PN1030

And administration?---Yes.

PN1031

So would I be correct in saying that where Mr Spencer does 6 o'clock until 11, or 6 o'clock until 10, which I understand he's contracted for four hours, if he comes back for an afternoon shift, it's unlikely that he's doing Mr Byrne's job?---He probably covers those hours, what Mr Byrne isn't there for.

PN1032

All right. Have you ever seen Mr Spencer out on the road collecting mail or dropping off mail?---No, I haven't seen him physically do that, no.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN1033

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, how would you? How would you, unless you followed him around?---That's right. No, but sometimes you might see him come in - drive in, in the van, and help offload the van - - -

PN1034

All right, of course?--- - - - but no, I haven't seen - I haven't come across him to do that, no.

PN1035

Right.

PN1036

MS DOYLE: Now, is it true - this is going to the point about whether the facility is under-staffed or not. Are you familiar with the Array job?---Depends - yes.

PN1037

Yes?---Yes.

PN1038

Do the Array workers at times get sent out to do pick-ups and deliveries?
---Constantly.

PN1039

Is that what they're supposed to be doing?---One of them is, yes.

PN1040

THE COMMISSIONER: How many Array positions are there?---There's three official Array positions.

PN1041

Three official?---Yes.

PN1042

How many unofficial?---Well, we've got one long-term rehab person out there.

PN1043

And that's plus?---That's plus the other three. Yes. The other three are part-time.

PN1044

MS DOYLE: So perhaps we - - -

PN1045

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, Ms Doyle, I do want to clarify this.

PN1046

So there are three official part-time Array positions, and one - - -?---Long-term rehab person.

PN1047

Right. Part-time as well?---No, he's fulltime.

PN1048

You say that the people in the Array positions are constantly sent out to do special parcel - - -?---And with extended hours, yes.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN1049

Parcel pick-ups?---Yes, and they get often - quite often get extended hours as well.

PN1050

MS DOYLE: Perhaps I could pass up again document 1 that came from the subpoena? This would be what was commonly called the establishment for Bayswater Hub?

PN1051

THE COMMISSIONER: No, please wait. Yes. Thank you.

PN1052

MS DOYLE: Just at the top, on the left-hand side it says “Agency Staff”?---Yes.

PN1053

And it has it for October '05?---Yes.

PN1054

And then it has “Fixed Term October '05”?---Yes.

PN1055

What would that lead you to believe?

PN1056

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, where does it have fixed term?

PN1057

MS DOYLE: On the left-hand side, up the top, in the two middle columns. There's Agency Staff and then there's Fixed Term, or Agency Fixed Term.

PN1058

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I can't see that. It says “Agency” and it says “Fixed”.

PN1059

MS DOYLE: It's fixed term, sorry.

PN1060

THE COMMISSIONER: It's too late in the day. You're inserting unofficial words.

PN1061

MS DOYLE: Okay. Well, they are shorthand for that's what they mean.

PN1062

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Doyle, this hasn't been marked, this one. It might be useful to mark document 1.

EXHIBIT #D9 DOCUMENT MARKED 1

PN1063

MS DOYLE: Mr Heenan, what agency and fixed term people come into facilities to do?---They could come into the Array or into a drive-in position.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN1064

Okay. Are they used to backfill people who are on long-term compensation or can't do their full duties or who are away on extended - you know, long service leave or whatever?---Normally.

PN1065

Yes.

PN1066

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, which one?---Well, normally they're - they're all that, so they're placed into a position. You know, of people on long-term sick leave or, you know, on long service leave or - - -

PN1067

So usually for leave positions?---Yes. Normally.

PN1068

On a contract, you said?---Yes.

PN1069

MS DOYLE: Right. So there's a difference between annual leave relief, sick leave and the longer term leave?---There is a difference.

PN1070

Right. So am I right in saying that ALRs and TOs cover annual leave relief, emergency, sick leave?---Annual leave relief is to cover people away on annual leave and TOs - well, they do cover people that - who are away, but generally they're around to do pick-ups, like, extra pick-ups and things like that around the place.

PN1071

Okay. We've had evidence here that there are two ALRs for the full-timers and one TO for the full-timers at Bayswater Hub. So just if you could hold on to that. For the part-timers, there are - and you could perhaps, just to help you, is Mr Henley's evidence - - -

PN1072

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Doyle?

PN1073

MS DOYLE: No, not proper? No.

PN1074

MR JACOBS: Again, Commissioner, we've gone over this area before. Mr Henley has gone over it, Mr Spencer has gone over it in his statement. There's no utility to this.

PN1075

MS DOYLE: All right. Well, my - - -

PN1076

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, in fact I'm finding Mr Heenan's evidence particularly useful, and without any disrespect to Mr Henley, Mr Heenan is working at Bayswater.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN1077

MR JACOBS: I accept that, Commissioner.

PN1078

THE COMMISSIONER: He understands precisely what is going on.

PN1079

MR JACOBS: I accept that.

PN1080

THE COMMISSIONER: It is for this very reason that people who are directly involved, day-to-day in the operations, quite often are the best people to talk to and to give evidence because they know exactly what's going on.

PN1081

MR JACOBS: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1082

THE COMMISSIONER: But I'm finding having to flick between these at this hour, I don't know about you, but I've just got lost. I've just slipped, and I have to ask you again, because now I've forgotten it, the ALRs, for fulltime people, are fulltime positions, as is the one TO?

PN1083

MS DOYLE: Yes.

PN1084

THE COMMISSIONER: A fulltime position? Fine. Without going back to all the documentation, are you able to ask Mr Heenan the numbers in relation to the part-time positions?

PN1085

MS DOYLE: Right. Perhaps I could just say it very simply again, the part-time - I've got a bit lost myself here. The part-time positions, do you know how many annual leave relief positions there are for part-timers and how many TO?---No, I don't. Sorry.

PN1086

There's been evidence, and I don't think that it's contested, that there is one ALR for the part-timers and two TOs. Do you think that that's adequate?---No, it is contested.

PN1087

It is contested?---But look - - -

PN1088

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Look, Ms Doyle - - -

PN1089

MS DOYLE: The need's contested, but not how many there are?---No, the numbers are contested.

**** PETER JAMES HEENAN XN MS DOYLE
PN1090

The numbers are contested too?

PN1091

THE COMMISSIONER: The numbers are contested as well.

PN1092

MS DOYLE: All right. So in your - - -

PN1093

THE COMMISSIONER: Just - I know this is really inappropriate and I don't like doing it generally, but I think the six or seven hours have been sufficient. I'm just finding that I'm starting to lose some very clear issues that I had in my mind.

PN1094

Mr Heenan, I know you've been waiting all day, but we'll give you another exciting trip from Bayswater into the witness box when we pick a date to resume. You can step down. This puts you in a difficult position because you are on oath. Between now and when we decide, you should not discuss what you have been discussing with Mr Henley, with Ms Doyle. You've made a witness statement. It's a matter now for you to come back and be asked more questions. For example, Ms Doyle has only taken you through issues arising from your witness statement. You are yet to be cross-examined by Mr Jacobs for Australia Post. So, you're an experienced shop steward. Hopefully you'll be far too busy anyway to be able to talk to anyone. All right. You can step down. Thank you very much?---Okay. Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.40PM]

PN1095

THE COMMISSIONER: Where you've been handed up that documentation, is that all yours? Just take what you came into the witness box with. I think that's the appropriate - thanks. Mr Jacobs?

PN1096

MR JACOBS: Commissioner, in terms of a further date - - -

PN1097

THE COMMISSIONER: Look, I think it will be preferable, I'll adjourn these proceedings until a date to be fixed and we'll go into conference to discuss the matter.

PN1098

MR JACOBS: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1099

THE COMMISSIONER: These proceedings are now adjourned.

<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [4.40PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #D4 SUBMISSIONS FROM THE CEPU PN43
BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY, SWORN PN44
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOYLE PN44
EXHIBIT #D5 STATEMENT OF BRENDAN MICHAEL HENLEY WITH ATTACHMENTS DATED 21/10/2005 PN70
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JACOBS PN197
EXHIBIT #G4 MAP OF BAYSWATER TRANSPORT HUB AND SURROUNDS PN318
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PN481
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DOYLE PN708
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN838
PETER JAMES HEENAN, SWORN PN842
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOYLE PN842
EXHIBIT #D6 STATEMENT OF PETER JAMES HEENAN PN849
EXHIBIT #D7 PART-TIME DUTIES DOCUMENT PN870
EXHIBIT #D8 DOCUMENTATION PROVIDED BY AUSTRALIA POST PN1003
EXHIBIT #D9 DOCUMENT MARKED 1 PN1062
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN1094