C2005/5015, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 2317 (8 November 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

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Workplace Relations Act 1996 13330-1

COMMISSIONER BLAIR

C2005/5015

CONSTRUCTION, FORESTRY, MINING AND ENERGY UNION
AND
TERRA TIMBERS BAIRNSDALE
s.99 - Notification of an industrial dispute
(C2005/5015)

BAIRNSDALE

1.27PM, WEDNESDAY, 26 OCTOBER 2005

PN1

MR D ROUNDS: I appear for the CFMEU Forestry Division.

PN2

MR P RYAN: I seek leave to appear on behalf of Terra Timbers Pty Ltd and appearing with me is MR P HEATON-HARRIS and MR A ADAMS.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks. Do you have any objections
Mr Rounds for Mr Ryan seeking leave.

PN4

MR ROUNDS: No Commissioner not at all.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks. Leave is granted Mr Ryan. Yes Mr Rounds.

PN6

MR ROUNDS: If the Commission pleases I'll just give you a brief outline of why we are in front of you today Commissioner. Going back on 1 August 2005 one of my members Mr Paul Hughes, was issued a written warning for verbally abusing one of the maintenance staff and also accused of in that written warning, he was accused of two employees leaving the site, quitting the job and leaving Terra Timbers. So we've had quite extension conversations with the company over a period of weeks and when I first spoke to Mr Allan Adams who's a production manager on site and outlined my issues of the fact was it was fairly unethical to blame an employee for the reason for two other employees leaving. I asked to have the written warning revoked and it was and then about a week or so after that I was then told again that the written warning would be re-instated because they since gathered proof that it was because of the member, Mr Paul Hughes that these two people had left the site.

PN7

So we've gone again of course once into extensive conversations mainly this the second time around with Mr Paul Heaton-Harris and had lengthy discussions about the fact of the way the written warning was given and also the fact of these two individuals leaving the site, which one of those individuals was sacked from the site for physically abusing - for physical violence against Mr Paul Hughes. And I asked again Mr Paul Heaton-Harris to actually revoke or remove the written warning which he gave some consideration over and then 24 hours after that I received a phone call after - obviously Mr Paul Heaton-Harris had gone to company directors and told me that it wasn't going to be removed because it was actually serving it's purpose because the company is also alleging that Mr Paul Hughes is quietly intimidating members on the site.

PN8

Keeping in mind also Commissioner, if the Commission pleases, that Mr Paul Hughes is the CFMEU delegate on the site and I've spoken extensively to Mr Paul Hughes about what has taken place and of course when I have been talking to him he denies the allegation. But certainly denies the fact that he is responsible for two employees quitting the job at Terra Timber. What I've also discussed with
Mr Paul Heaton-Harris is the fact that - we also got into lengthy conversations about the fact that some of the stuff that's in the written warning is going back some 18 months, two years ago which issues weren't dealt with during that period of time.

PN9

But it was all lumped into one warning on 1 August 2005 which I explained to
Mr Paul Heaton-Harris the fact was I didn't understand why we didn't actually deal with those issues as they were arising so we could have actually maybe even just got away with having a discussion with the members and dealt with it fairly quickly instead of it festering and becoming into one lump written warning. There is a fairly big issue on the site Commissioner, the fact that there's a fairly big communication break down between management and the members on the floor. And what I've actually done is gone out of my way and offered my services to come in and actually do one on one's with the membership to find out exactly what the problems are between the two parties, and so I can actually see whether there's a pattern forming there.

PN10

Whether it's a problem with a certain manager or whatever the case may be, at least we can address it then or start to address it which the company was quite acceptable to do that. After speaking to Mr Paul Heaton-Harris he said it would be really good to try and get this communication barrier broken down. After a couple of weeks I received a phone call off Mr Paul Heaton-Harris saying that he wasn't going to go ahead with that because I wasn't qualified enough so to speak, to actually impose myself on speaking to members one on one and that they had engaged the services of an independent person to come in and do that job, which I was more than happy with. As long as the job was getting done and as long as we could see some light at the end of the tunnel and hopefully get this communication barrier broken down.

PN11

To the best of my knowledge Commissioner, after the last time I was on site, the fact is that it still hasn't happened, there has been some discussions with independent persons but he hasn't actually spoken to my members and actually tried to resolve the issues that we have. And of late, after talking to members on the phone, of late things are increasingly getting worse with the communications barriers that we have. So Mr Paul Hughes my delegate and an employee of the company, is at a bit of a loss in the fact that he's saying well Darren we've asked to settle this up, we've asked to do this and we're doing all this stuff to try and help both parties out and nothing seems to be fourth coming from the company.

PN12

Mr Paul Hughes has denied quite strongly, the fact is that he had no part in these two people leaving the site and hence that was one of biggest things I tried to get removed from the written warning. Yes he does admit Commissioner, that he did have an altercation with the maintenance man, and I believe also that many people in the past have. And also it's been brought to my attention is the fact that some of the other members on the site, which I'm not here to certainly dob anyone in has also had abusive tendencies but have never been given a written warning for those abusive tendencies, but also that's all lumped on Mr Paul Hughes.

PN13

So once again Commissioner, I come in front of you to express my concerns and also ask for the Commissions assistance to have this written warning removed because there is a lot of untruths in it and I have expressed to the company quite strongly, is the fact I'm always prepared to come to and help Terra Timber to the best of my ability and be there on call if an issue arises so we can sit down and sort the issues out. Because it's only a very small organisation as far as employees go. There's only, correct me if I'm wrong, there's only seven employees on site so I'm at a bit of a loss how seven people can't get along and also with the company management and try and work our differences out as quick as possible without having to resort to written warnings, and untruths in written warnings that's probably more to the point.

PN14

So and once again Commissioner, I really express my concerns with the company to let me come in and engage and try and help the company through this hard period of time because we're all in there to do the same job.

PN15

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks Mr Rounds, yes Mr Ryan.

PN16

MR RYAN: Commissioner Mr Rounds has raised a whole range and draft of various issues which I'm not quite sure in which order I should address them but the subject matter of the notification Commissioner, related to alleged process of written warnings and that is the primary matter that I'll address you on Commissioner. The facts of the matter are that the company did issue a written warning to Mr Paul Hughes and was totally justified in its view in doing so and is certainly not in a position or not of the mind to withdraw such notice, which I believe was what the union was seeking on behalf of Mr Hughes. Commissioner, just for the record, clearly I deny that the allegations have been made against the company in terms of lack of management and the other raft of issues that
Mr Rounds had raised.

PN17

My understanding is Commissioner, just to address those as a package, is that there was a meeting held last week and in fact a general staff meeting has been convened for this Friday to address and deal with some of the matters that have been brought to the attention of the company. Clearly Commissioner the prime focus of being here today is in relation to the written warning that was issued to Mr Hughes and from the company's perspective it's clearly entitled to issue such a warning and stands by that written warning that was issued. I'm not sure how you wish to proceed Commissioner, but I'd just indicate briefly for the record,
Mr Hughes commenced employment with the company in January 2003, has been involved or employed by the company for just over two years.

PN18

There have been five previous incidents prior to the company actually issuing a formal written warning as occurred in this time, within a month of Mr Hughes commencing employment he was counselled in relation to verbal abuse. There have been other incidents since that time, the most recent time he was counselled again in relation to verbal abuse, was on 12 August 2004 and then earlier this year there have been two other incidents, the most recent of them being what I would call the John Upton incident, which was the matter that gave rise to the company formally issuing a written notice.

PN19

Commissioner, I don't wish to put on the record at this point in time anymore detail in relation to those matters except to say the company is clearly justified and has followed due process in all aspects in relation to the issuing of the warning to the employee involved. And clearly has no inclination whatsoever to withdraw that. There have been discussions, quite extensive discussions I believe, with Mr Rounds and Mr Hughes was involved in those discussions with company management. Both Mr Heaton-Harris and Mr Adams have been involved in those discussions and the determination of the company was subject to all those considerations, the matters were discussed that the warning would stand as it was issued and that remains our position Commissioner.

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: So is it the desire of the parties to go off record and have a discussion in conference?

PN21

MR ROUNDS: Yes Commissioner.

PN22

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Ryan?

PN23

MR RYAN: We have no objection to that Commissioner.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: Right we'll go into conference.

<NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED