C2005/4093, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 2630 (30 December 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 13702-1

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DRAKE

C2005/4093

MEDIA, ENTERTAINMENT AND ARTS ALLIANCE
AND
AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
s.170LW - Application for settlement of dispute (certification of agreement)
(C2005/4093)

SYDNEY

10.19AM, FRIDAY, 09 DECEMBER 2005

Hearing continuing

PN1

MR M RYAN: I appear on behalf of the Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance with MS M JONES.

PN2

MR L CARUSO: I appear on behalf of the ABC with MR P McINTYRE.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We've been though all this mostly before, Mr Ryan. Are you ready?

PN4

MR RYAN: Yes, I am, your Honour. Like the other matter we played earlier this week, it's a fairly straightforward set of facts that we have an argument about. In a nutshell, Mr Greaves' fulltime employment with the ABC is as a newsreader for radio, as presenter, and occasionally he does voiceover work for Media Watch when the main voiceover person is absent, so he's on standby, if you like, the reserve.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I know I should have asked this question before. I've never actually understood what voiceover was. Not that it's relevant but it's an opportunity for me to ask some questions.

PN6

MR RYAN: Ask and you will be answered, your Honour. It's when they refer to, say for example, they're quoting from a newspaper on the television, "The Herald said today" Mr Greaves would read it out. You wouldn't see Mr Greaves' face, you would just hear Mr Greaves' voice saying, "The Herald said" blah, blah. That's a voiceover. Also when you listen to the radio you might hear promotions for the station. That's the sort of thing that voiceover is.

PN7

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN8

MR RYAN: Mr Greaves, as I said, in his fulltime work as a presenter has occasionally been required over the last 10 years to fill in for the main voiceover person when that person is absent for whatever reason. In recent times the ABC has asserted that this is a conflict of interest in that working for the same employer somehow is a conflict of interest.

PN9

By way of background there is some internal tension within the ABC as to the role of Media Watch. You may think as an ordinary person that Media Watch would come within the news and current affairs department of the ABC. It does not, it forms part of the television division so it's not under the control of news and current affairs management. It was on that basis that the ABC has sought to assert that Mr Greaves cannot perform work for Media Watch.

PN10

There are some existing exhibits, your Honour, which I think arose out of the initial hearing before Commissioner Roberts sometime ago. I think there is one ABC exhibit and there are five Alliance exhibits. If I could take you to exhibit MEAA4, you can see that in the second-last paragraph that because of Mr Greaves doing voiceover work on three programs, 7 July 2004, 11 April 2005 and 18 April 2005, that he has been given a formal warning in writing and, as well, has been denied the opportunity to do voiceover work which is undertaken outside his normal 38 hour week, which has an additional payment for that work.

PN11

If I could take you to ABC1, your Honour, and the attachment to that, there is a document purporting to be Working Outside News and Current Affairs Guidelines for Staff and Managers, guidelines put out by John Cameron, director news and current affairs, which talks about no conflict of interest, the employee seeking approval from their manager before doing that. We say that's a document which has no basis for being created. In fact, it's in direct contradiction to the ABC Rules set out in MEAA3 where the process there is for the two managers to get together and work out whether they should allow a person to work outside their normal area.

PN12

That's the basis of where we are, your Honour. We seek, if we are successful, that the written warning be withdrawn and that Mr Greaves can carry on as he has been doing for the last 10 years, which is filling in for the main voiceover person on Media Watch. On that basis, if there's nothing further from you, I would like to call Mr Greaves to give evidence.

PN13

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I usually like to hear from both sides before any evidence is called. It's not the way everybody does things, but it puts the evidence more in context if you know what the issues are. That's my preference. Mr Caruso.

PN14

MR CARUSO: Thank you, your Honour. As Mr Ryan has said, Mr Greaves works as a newsreader, he works in news and current affairs. The director of the Commission is Mr John Cameron. Mr John Cameron has a number of senior managers who are responsible for different functions within news and current affairs division. One of those managers is Mr McIntyre and Mr McIntyre is the New South Wales state manager. Part of his function includes supervising the newsreaders in Sydney, which Mr Greaves is one. Mr Greaves reports directly to Mr McIntyre. Mr McIntyre does his performance review and on a day-to-day basis it's Mr McIntyre that Mr Greaves deals with in respect to employment matters. Also, as Mr Ryan has indicated, Media Watch does not come under the umbrella of the news current affairs division, it comes under the television division and Mr Greaves has been doing voiceovers for Media Watch.

PN15

It is the view of Mr Cameron that Mr Greaves should not do any voiceovers for Media Watch as he considers it a conflict of interest with his role as a newsreader, in that Mr Greaves is someone that is identified by name and voice as an ABC newsreader. It's Mr Cameron's concern that working for Media Watch, the work could have an impact on the editorial integrity of the work that Mr Greaves does for the news division, in that it may undermine the credibility of the news product to have an identifiable news voice being used to express criticism of a newspaper which is what Media Watch does.

PN16

Mr Cameron in October 2004 issued the Working Outside News and Current Affairs Guidelines for Staff which is that attachment to ABC1 and as it clearly states in those guidelines, all requests for work outside the ABC ..... the ABC, other than news and current affairs, paid or unpaid, must be referred in writing to the employee's supervisors. Despite this policy, despite Mr Greaves being told on three separate occasions not to perform work with Media Watch, Mr Greaves ignored those requests. The ABC submits that Mr Greaves was given a lawful direction by his supervisor which he chose to disregard and accordingly, we submit that the ABC has the right in accordance with clause 57.1 to issue the warning.

PN17

Mr Ryan also touched on the document MEAA3 which are the general orders. I think that Mr Ryan has misconstrued that document but it's not a document we're relying on. That document, we believe, talks about financial delegation and if a supervisor wants to employ someone outside the division to perform work, then that supervisor must get the approval of the appropriate delegate to spend money to pay for that engagement. If we apply it in this case, we say it means that the executive producer of Media Watch would have to get permission from the director of television to spend any money on employees outside of the division to work for Media Watch. We don't believe it refers to the delegate being John Cameron.

PN18

We submit that John Cameron and Paul McIntyre, as Mr Greaves' supervisor, has control over Mr Greaves and other employees in news and current affairs. They don't have control over television employees. Accordingly, I don't think we should put any weight on that document to in any degree. Thank you, your Honour.

PN19

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you intend to call any witnesses?

PN20

MR CARUSO: Yes. I will be calling Mr McIntyre.

PN21

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you wish to call Mr Greaves?

PN22

MR RYAN: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

<JOHN GREAVES, AFFIRMED [10 31AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR RYAN

PN23

MR RYAN: Mr Greaves, I wonder if you could state your full name and address, please?---John Greaves (address supplied).

PN24

Your current position?---At ABC?

PN25

At the ABC, yes?---I'm employed as a presenter producer.

PN26

How long have you been employed at the ABC?---On and off since 1975 with a gap of about four years during that time.

PN27

Could you briefly outline your history in broadcasting, please, outside the ABC?
---I've worked various places around the world including the BBC and in France. I've been in broadcasting for 33 years and I've done many voiceovers for all sorts of programs with the ABC and others, for different programs on radio and television long before I was involved with the news. I even presented breakfast programs for the ABC, including 2BL. That's about it.

PN28

What do your current duties consist of in your presenter producer role?---Reading news bulletins on all the various networks the ABC has and producing bulletins as well.

PN29

How long have you been doing voiceover work for Media Watch?---For 10 years now, your Honour.

PN30

How did that come to be? How did you get first involved with doing voiceover work for Media Watch?---It started of as a freelance contract when I was looking for work after coming back from Europe and they offered me a fill-in position and it has been maintained ever since then from the very first Media Watch programs with Stuart Littlemore.

PN31

You say you're the fill-in voiceover person. That means what, you replace somebody when they're not available to do the voiceover work?---Yes, either when they're sick or on leave or go on holidays, whatever.

PN32

What is the process by which you are told that you will be required to do the voiceover work?---The producer of the program calls me up, usually about a week before, seeing if I'm available to do the program which I always am because it's done in my own time at like 9 o'clock in the morning.

**** JOHN GREAVES XN MR RYAN
PN33

That's been the case for 10 years, if somebody is not available, that you will be told about a week beforehand that you're required to do that work?---That's correct.

PN34

That's been done in the full knowledge of news and current affairs management for that 10 year period?---Absolutely.

PN35

When did you first become aware that Mr Cameron wasn't enamoured of that arrangement?---As soon as Mr Cameron took up the position as director of news.

PN36

When was that approximately?---I can't remember, sorry.

PN37

Do you recall doing voiceover work on the Media Watch program that went to air on 11 April this year?---I do indeed.

PN38

What did your voiceover work consist of reading?---It consisted of reading newspaper headlines, quotes from various people and responses to those quotes.

PN39

Do you recall whose words you were reading?---One of the stories was the words of John Cameron, director of news.

PN40

Did that consist of just reading Mr Cameron's words or did you have a script which went beyond that?---I only read his words and no one else's. It's like reading the news, you're just saying what other people say, quoting them.

PN41

There is also another voiceover person, a woman's voice that is used on the program?---Yes.

PN42

You and the other voiceover person only read the words of others?---Absolutely. We never make any editorial comments ever.

PN43

Is that left to the presenter of the program to make editorial comment?---It is indeed.

PN44

Who was the presenter of Media Watch this year?---Liz Jackson.

PN45

Is that her substantive position?---No, she's attached to news and current affairs normally.

**** JOHN GREAVES XN MR RYAN
PN46

Would you be aware of who is going to be the presenter of Media Watch next year?---I think it's Monica Attard.

PN47

Do you know Ms Attard's substantive position?---News and current affairs.

PN48

It's your evidence that the voiceover people only quote the words of others?
---Yes.

PN49

But the presenters, in the case of Ms Jackson and next year Ms Attard, do the editorial comments?---That's correct, yes.

PN50

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are the voiceover people identified by name in any way?---Yes, your Honour, in the credits that come up at the end, just say voiceovers and mention the names. I'm identified as an ABC voice generally, not just news but across the board because of the other work I've been doing for the ABC.

PN51

MR RYAN: I wonder if I could hand the witness a copy of ABC1.

PN52

Mr Greaves, I wonder if you could look at the attachment to ABC1 which is Mr Cameron's guidelines and if I could direct your attention to the second-last paragraph and I ask you to read that, please?---

PN53

The same approach applies to voiceovers including in drama or comedy either inside or outside the ABC where such work could compromise or be perceived as comprising the independence, reputation and credibility of news and current affairs bulletins and programs. This is particularly problematic when a staff member's voice, because of their news and current affairs work, is readily identifiable as the voice of an ABC presenter.

PN54

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I could almost feel myself in the middle of a Media Watch program.

PN55

MR RYAN: I think you'll notice Mr Greaves' voice changes when he has a script in front of him?---Sorry about that.

PN56

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, it was absorbing to watch?---Thank you, your Honour.

**** JOHN GREAVES XN MR RYAN
PN57

MR RYAN: Very professional. These guidelines were sent to all staff in news and current affairs?---Yes, they were.

PN58

Would you haves any idea how many staff approximately there are in news and current affairs?---Many hundreds.

PN59

How many staff in news and current affairs do voiceover work?---Two.

PN60

Which is the largest paragraph in that guideline?---The second-last one.

PN61

Is that the paragraph that relates to the two people doing voiceover work?---It does indeed.

PN62

That document was sent to you, wasn't it, one week after you read Mr Cameron's words on Media Watch?---Last year, yes.

PN63

No, look at the date?---The letter, I beg your pardon. I thought you meant the actual document. Yes, it did.

PN64

I have no further questions, your Honour.

PN65

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CARUSO [10.39AM]

PN66

MR CARUSO: Mr Greaves, you acknowledge that you report directly to Mr McIntyre?---Yes, I do.

PN67

As the state editor?---Yes.

PN68

Do you agree that as a news reader the presentation of the news must be accurate, impartial and .....?---100 per cent, yes.

PN69

Are you aware of the ABC's editorial guidelines?---I am very much aware of them.

PN70

Also the ABC's code of conduct?---Yes, I am..

PN71

Would you agree that you're duty bound to advise your supervisor of any intention or actual conflict of interest?---Yes. Yes, I do.

**** JOHN GREAVES XXN MR CARUSO
PN72

You would also agree that John Cameron, as the director of news and current affairs, has ultimate responsibility in regard to editorial decisions?---Yes.

PN73

If I can just then refer you back to the guidelines issue with John Cameron, you said you first saw them when they were attached to Mr Cameron's letter?---Yes.

PN74

That's the first time you saw them?---I've - these came out while I was on leave last year, I was on two and a half months' leave.

PN75

When was that?---September till October, I think it was, last year. These came out while I was away. I didn't see that until I got back.

PN76

You did see it before the letter? You'd actually seen the document before the letter?---Yes, and we had many email conversations about the subject, especially me asking for a meeting to discuss this, which he refused to respond to.

PN77

The letter from Mr Cameron dated 18 April, which had that attachment to it?
---Yes, it did. We sent this.

PN78

You had seen it before 18 April?---Yes.

PN79

Isn't it true that when you had your performance appraisal with Mr McIntyre you also gave him a copy of this?---I can't remember. I definitely can't remember. This has been going on since April last year, this whole situation.

PN80

Can I give you a copy of the memo from Mr McIntyre dated 7 July 2004?
---Thank you.

PN81

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Ryan, did you intend to tender or have I already got the material that you - - -

PN82

MR RYAN: What I've referred to have already been given as exhibits, your Honour.

PN83

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm just making sure there's nothing additional attached to it that I don't have. Do you want me to mark this?

PN84

MR CARUSO: Yes, your Honour.

**** JOHN GREAVES XXN MR CARUSO
PN85

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Will we continue the exhibits as before Commissioner Roberts in that way? Is that convenient?

EXHIBIT #ABC2 MR CAMERON'S GUIDELINES ATTACHED TO ABC1

PN86

MR CARUSO: In that document, Mr Greaves, it's clear that Mr McIntyre has given you a direction not to continue?---Correct.

PN87

Despite that, you've ignored that direction?---Correct. There was nothing unlawful. There's nothing lawful about the directive. There's nothing in the code of conduct to say I can't - cannot work within my own organisation.

PN88

But Mr McIntyre did explain to you why ABC management ..... conflict of interest and concerns they had - - -?---I disagreed with that.

PN89

You may, but Mr McIntyre explained the concerns of ABC management .....?
---There was no concern for 10 years, only till - only when Mr Cameron came along as director of - - -

PN90

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's not what he asked you, Mr Greaves?---I'm sorry. Repeat the question.

PN91

What he asked you was whether on that occasion he explained his position to you?---Yes.

PN92

MR CARUSO: Can I also give you another document. At that stage you knew about the policy because you'd gone to Mr Cameron and asked permission to work - - -?---I did not do that at all. I did not ask Mr Cameron to work for Media Watch.

PN93

Sorry. You were aware of the policy at that time?---Of conflict of interest.

PN94

MR RYAN: Your Honour, the email is dated 6 July 2004 and it's made clear by Mr Cameron the policy came into place in October 2004.

PN95

MR CARUSO: Sorry, I take that back?

PN96

MR RYAN: A slight bit of confusion.

**** JOHN GREAVES XXN MR CARUSO
PN97

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want to tender this document?

PN98

MR CARUSO: Yes.

EXHIBIT #ABC3 EMAIL DATED 11/04/2005

PN99

MR RYAN: I haven't seen it.

PN100

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I just ask if I'm going to be shown the program?

PN101

MR CARUSO: The Media Watch program?

PN102

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mm.

PN103

MR CARUSO: No.

PN104

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You say it's not what was said. It's just that anything at all was said.

PN105

MR CARUSO: It's not what was said, it's the concerns that ABC management had that a recognisable newsreader's voice on a program that mainly .....

PN106

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I just wanted to know. You say Mr Greaves' voice is somehow recognisable as an ABC voice because he's working - - -

PN107

MR CARUSO: As a newsreader's voice.

PN108

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As a newsreader's voice, what, so that somebody would, listening to it, say, "That's Mr Greaves" or they might say, "That's Kerry O'Brien," or somebody like that. They might recognise his voice. That's the concept?

PN109

MR CARUSO: The concept is that - - -

PN110

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Not a generic ABC voice but a particular voice, Mr Greaves' voice. That's right?

PN111

MR CARUSO: Yes, a particular voice of a newsreader.

**** JOHN GREAVES XXN MR CARUSO
PN112

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Of a particular newsreader who works for the ABC.

PN113

MR CARUSO: Yes.

PN114

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Not an ABC sound but an ABC particular newsreader.

PN115

MR CARUSO: That's right.

PN116

In that document - - -?---Which one are we referring to? Sorry.

PN117

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Three, the last one. That's the email dated 11 April. Is that right, Mr Caruso?

PN118

MR CARUSO: Yes, that's right. Just bear with me, your Honour.

PN119

He's raising his concerns again about you doing work for Media Watch?---Yes, second page is, yes.

PN120

He's clearly saying that you're not to work for - continue to work or take further work on for Media Watch?---Correct.

PN121

You've ignored that instruction. Can I then take you to 18 April 2005?---Are you going back to this first letter, 18 April 2005, this letter here, faxed to the - - -

PN122

Yes. You've got a copy of that, good?---Yes.

PN123

I'll hand that up - no, you've already got a copy.

PN124

Again, there's a clear direction there - it refers back to the guidelines at issue. He's directing you to discontinue with work for Media Watch immediately?---Mm.

PN125

You've gone and ignored that?---The guidelines are not part of the code of conduct.

PN126

No, no. You've ignored that direction. I'm asking you whether you've - - -?
---Again I believe it to be an unlawful directive.

**** JOHN GREAVES XXN MR CARUSO
PN127

I'm asking you - - -

PN128

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, Mr Greaves - - -?---Sorry, sorry, your Honour.

PN129

I have more trouble with journalists than anybody else in answering questions.

PN130

MR RYAN: He hasn't got a script.

PN131

THE WITNESS: My apologies.

PN132

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You just have to not worry about what the justification for it is or why it was so or any other matter. That's Mr Ryan's job. What you simply have to do is answer the questions being asked, not where you think the question is going. That is what you do. It's frustrating because you have an understanding of what the process is but that is what you've got to do?
---My apologies.

PN133

MR CARUSO: Despite those three separate instructions not to work for Media Watch, you went out there and did so and I believe on the program on
11 July - - -?---Which year?

PN134

2005, you went ahead and did that voiceover work for Media Watch?---Yes.

PN135

As a result of that you were advised in writing of allegations of misconduct?
---Yes.

PN136

As a result of that a meeting was subsequently held to discuss those allegations. Is that correct?---I vaguely remember something about them. There would have been several meetings.

PN137

The meeting happened on 22 July?---This year.

PN138

This year, and I believe also present was Mr McIntyre, Ms ..... also I believe .....?
---Yes.

PN139

Did Mr McIntyre explain the allegations to you?---Yes.

PN140

Despite Mr McIntyre again making it clear to you that you would not undertake work for Media Watch, during that meeting you did say that if you were offered again work from Media Watch, you would go ahead?---I did say that, yes.

**** JOHN GREAVES XXN MR CARUSO
PN141

No further questions.

PN142

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you wish the letter dated 18 April marked as an exhibit?

PN143

MR CARUSO: Yes, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #ABC4 LETTER DATED 18/04/2005

PN144

MR RYAN: Just briefly, your Honour.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [10.52AM]

PN145

MR RYAN: Mr Greaves, I take you to exhibit ABC3 which is the email exchange between 8 and 11 April and it's an email from Mr Cameron to you of 11 April, the last sentence of that where he says:

PN146

I'll accept HR's interpretation and or recommendation, whatever that might be.

PN147

?---Yes.

PN148

Have you ever been shown that interpretation?---Never.

PN149

Then to your email response to that where you reply. In the last sentence you say:

PN150

So why don't we arrange a meeting.

PN151

Did that ever take place?---No, it didn't.

PN152

In fact, the meeting of the 22nd was the meeting, wasn't it, after you were told that they had allegations of misconduct against you?---Correct, yes.

PN153

There's never in that time between the middle of 2004 and the disciplinary meeting, if you like, on 22 July, any informal discussions between you and Mr Cameron?---Despite my request in my emails to him.

PN154

Nothing further, your Honour.

PN155

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Greaves, you said there was another voiceover person working on the program, a female person, is she the only other person who works there in a fill-in capacity?---She's fulltime. The other person works in - the main female fulltime and there's a female standby and a male standby.

**** JOHN GREAVES RXN MR RYAN
PN156

Where does the female standby come from?---I'm not sure. It's up to the .....

PN157

It's not a regular person?---No.

PN158

Have you ever been contacted before by any director from ABC about your voiceover work before Mr Cameron?---Never, your Honour, not in 10 years.

PN159

When you were the voice of Mr Cameron on this occasion, was the program critical of Mr Cameron?---The times he has been mentioned on the program have all been critical, your Honour.

PN160

Naturally. The only thing it does, really, is criticise. I don't think I've got any other questions. Is there anything arising out of my question? No?

PN161

MR RYAN: We actually have a transcript of that program, your Honour, just got the one copy.

PN162

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could I see it?

PN163

MR RYAN: Yes. If we have a short break we'll get it photocopied.

PN164

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just give it to my staff. Just photocopy it and then show it to Mr Caruso and subject to his agreeing it's accurate, we'll - is there any other matter? Can Mr Greaves be excused?

PN165

MR RYAN: I have nothing further.

PN166

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. You may come and go as you please?---Thanks.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.56AM]

PN167

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there anything you wish to say about any of those matters? Do you wish to address me further, either of you?

PN168

MR RYAN: Not in relation to Mr Greaves' evidence at this stage, your Honour.

PN169

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you wish to call Mr McIntyre?

PN170

MR CARUSO: Can I have about a five minute break?

PN171

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Certainly. I will go and have a caffeine break myself and you may call me in my chambers on my extension and I'll return when you're ready.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.57AM]
<RESUMED [11.28AM]

PN172

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Caruso.

PN173

MR CARUSO: Can I make a comment about - - -

PN174

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sure.

PN175

MR CARUSO: If what the MEAA is doing in submitting this document is inferring that the reason behind Mr Greaves not having approval to work for Media Watch is based on the fact that Mr Cameron heard him do his voice in the program, I don't think any reliance should be taken on that, simply on the basis that Mr Greaves has already given evidence that he was given a direction by Mr McIntyre not to undertake work for Media Watch as early as April 2004.

PN176

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is this the transcript of the first program?

PN177

MR CARUSO: Yes. This is the transcript of 11 April.

PN178

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think it arises out of any submission put by Mr Ryan. The tender, Mr Caruso, really arises out of my question. He might ask me to draw inferences. If he does you should oppose them if you wish at the time he makes the submission in your response but at the moment he hasn't made any submission.

PN179

MR CARUSO: I might leave it for - - -

PN180

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Are you having a little bit of a pre-emptive strike? Could I have the document? Thank you.

EXHIBIT #MEAA6 TRANSCRIPT OF MEDIA WATCH
<PAUL MCINTYRE, SWORN [11.30AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CARUSO

PN181

MR CARUSO: Mr McIntyre, could you give the Commission your name and address?---Paul McIntyre (address supplied).

PN182

What's your position and title?---I'm the state news editor for New South Wales in news and current affairs.

PN183

What are your responsibilities in that role?---I manage the general news, news bulletins for radio and TV in news and current affairs in New South Wales.

PN184

When did you become aware that Mr Greaves was doing voiceover work for Media Watch?---April 2004, very early April.

PN185

What view did take about his Media Watch work?---I felt that it was a conflict of interest, primarily on two accounts, one that he is a newsreader for ABC news on radio and that our news must be independent. We've got to have integrity and an authority that what we're listening to is factual information of all types so I felt that his voice, being easily identifiable on radio, would be also easily identifiable on TV and the other aspect is that Media Watch is a program that generally - it critiques what other broadcasters as well as the ABC are doing as well as media and that it's not appropriate for a person that's regularly on air in our news environment in any capacity doing voiceovers to be criticising other media ..... as well as the ABC.

PN186

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I beg your pardon. What did you say then?---For him not to be criticising other media as well as the ABC. Media Watch is generally a program that critiques what other - or what ..... is doing.

PN187

I watch it all the time?---So yes, it's my opinion that it's a completely separate program and it's interfering with our editorial independence as a news broadcaster doing bulletins to have a recognised voice - it doesn't matter whether the listener is aware that it's - or knows Mr Greaves, that associates that voice with the news bulletins. That then, on that program, automatically gives credibility to whatever Mr Greaves would be reading ..... that's it's factual or opinion or comment by whoever he's doing the voiceover for.

PN188

Even though it's almost like acting?---Yes, even - - -

PN189

Even though it's not a presentation by him but using him acting as the voice of somebody else?---Even that. It's the fact that the voice is recognised or identifiable with - - -

**** PAUL MCINTYRE XN MR CARUSO
PN190

I can understand why the concern is in the news department and not in the television department. Wouldn't the concern about the conflict arise about the credibility of the Media Watch people, not the news people?---The news people were more worried that here we have a presenter that is identifiable by voice that we pay for a specific role to present news bulletins, therefore, that person is identified as having the credibility, the integrity, the authority that we present balanced and unbiased programming and then that voice is heard on another program putting forward what may be comment or the like, it may well be fact, but it's two distinct strains of media.

PN191

MR CARUSO: You issued Mr Greaves a directive on 7 July 2004 not to undertake any more work for Media Watch. What discussions did you have with Mr Greaves about it?---In 2004 we had a couple of messages go backwards and forwards on the internal system and I News and I think here might have been a piece in Mail Message, but it was basically that I felt that it was a breach of editorial policy in that there was a potential or perceived conflict of interest and I asked him not to do any more voiceover work for Media Watch.

PN192

Did you raise it with him beyond that date?---It had been raised on a number of occasions between then and was coming to a head in, I think it was - might have even been July of this year. So it had been raised. We had a - in October we put out workplace guidelines to clarify any potential misinterpretation of news and current affairs' view on editorial policies. We had another discussion when we did the performance appraisal. It was - - -

PN193

When was that?---That was in January, late January 2005. I gave him another copy of the workplace guidelines and said that he was not to do any more voiceover work. If he did want to do voiceover work, we have to go through the formal process seeking permission and I think after that was in April when he did seek permission through John Cameron.

PN194

What was Mr Greaves' reaction during these discussions?---He felt that - - -

PN195

MR RYAN: With respect, to what, your Honour, reaction to what?

PN196

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. You should be ..... Mr Caruso. There was a number of events identified - - -

PN197

MR CARUSO: Your directive not for him to undertake any work for Media Watch?---He felt that it wasn't a conflict of interest and that he had every intention of continuing to do the voiceover work.

**** PAUL MCINTYRE XN MR CARUSO
PN198

When was Mr Greaves given a formal warning?

PN199

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Given a - sorry?

PN200

MR CARUSO: Formal warning not to perform work for Media Watch?---A formal warning as in the formal warning for misconduct or are we talking
about - - -

PN201

We're talking about not - - -?---When was he told not to do it? The first time was in July 04, then there was again in January 05 when we had the appraisal. I'm aware he was told in writing by the director of news and current affairs in April and then there was another occasion I think early July of this year. I think it was around there.

PN202

When were you aware that Mr Greaves had then actually performed work for Media Watch after those discussions that you've had with him?---There was one in April of this year. I became aware that he had done it and I think he at another point, maybe even July of last year where - - -

PN203

July of last year?--- - - - where it had been raised again.

PN204

What were your actions as a result of him doing it again in July last year?---It was to speak to him about it and from memory we had - I think we had a meeting because at that point John was consulting with the MEAA and I recall meeting with Mark Ryan, John Cameron, Don Smith, myself and I'm not sure if anyone else was there, where we talked about it and then after that in October, that's when the guidelines came out to clarify it so that there could be no misunderstanding.

PN205

What about in July 2005?---In July 2005 we went through a formal process once there had been another occasion on air with Media Watch, and that was to - - -

PN206

How did you advice him of that?---That was in writing. I'd - there'd been an email, we called for a meeting, we put forward a formal misconduct letter and a bit of to-ing and fro-ing as we tried to sort out a date and time that we could sit down and talk and then we had a - and then we got together and had a meeting and that was with Melissa and Kate Marshall, myself from the ABC.

PN207

Can I just show you a couple of letters from the MEAA. I would like to hand up those, sorry. You were aware of these letters?---Yes, I am.

**** PAUL MCINTYRE XN MR CARUSO
PN208

There seems to be an argument as to when to reschedule meetings and have a discussion. What did you do after you received these letters? What was the next step?---With these - we ended up having a meeting and at that meeting we - we'd already issued the allegations of misconduct and at that meeting with Melissa Jones, John Greaves, Kate Marshall on behalf of the ABC and myself, we were expecting to discuss a response to those allegations. At that point in time they hadn't - I think I went through - or outlined what was in the letter and, you know, that we wanted an explanation and we offered them time to break from the meeting and come back. At that time Mr Greaves was saying regardless, he was going to continue on with his voice work and we ended the meeting and I think it was agreed that the MEAA would provide a written response.

PN209

Can I just hand up the letter Mr McIntyre is referring to in regard to giving Mr Greaves an opportunity to respond.

EXHIBIT #ABC5 TWO LETTERS FROM THE ALLIANCE DATED 14/07/2005

PN210

MR CARUSO: You made mention of a meeting that you had with Mr Greaves and Ms Marshall and was Ms Jones also at that meeting?---Yes, she was.

PN211

Can you recall what that meeting was or tell us what was discussed during that meeting?---I believe the date of that meeting was 22 July. That meeting was to go through the allegations of misconduct. We had already made the allegations of misconduct. We were anticipating that we would get a response at that meeting. I think the - John Greaves and Melissa Jones felt that that was for us to put the things - the allegations forward so there was - not much progress was made, except for me to reiterate that directive that there was to be no more work on - voiceover work on Media Watch.

PN212

What was Mr Greaves' response to that?---That he was going to do it regardless.

PN213

Can you tell me who has the responsibility for editorial positions in the news division?---In the news division it solely lies through the upward referral chain up to John Cameron the director.

PN214

What is Mr Greaves' responsibility in relation to editorial matters?---He should ultimately refer upward through the editorial chain on the floor to me. On conflict of interest it comes directly to me. Then I will either refer it to head of policy if I've got any doubts or seeking a point of clarification and then on to the director and voiceover work, be it for whatever, I'll always go through to the director.

**** PAUL MCINTYRE XN MR CARUSO
PN215

Can you tell me if there's anyone else, aside from Mr Greaves, who does voiceover work for Media Watch who's employed by the news and current affairs division?---Not that I'm aware of.

PN216

Can you also tell me the circumstances in regard to Ms Liz Jackson presenting the program last year?---My understanding is that she was on transfer and at that point she was no longer associated with news and current affairs and that was made very clear on the program.

PN217

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that your evidence that that is the case or when you say it's your understanding, do you know that to be the case or not?
---I haven't watched Media Watch for quite a while but my understanding is that there is supposed to be a declaration at the end stating something along those lines, but I'm not a big watcher of Media Watch.

PN218

No, no. I mean, do you know what Ms Jackson's standing is as an employee and which division she's in?---She's not - while she's working for Media Watch she's not with the news and current affairs.

PN219

It's just that you said you thought and I'm not sure whether you knew or you were guessing?---No, I'm not guessing.

PN220

MR CARUSO: No further questions, your Honour.

PN221

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know whether it's simply a before Christmas problem or not, but I'm having some trouble getting the chronology in this matter right. At the end of the cross-examination and before I decide this matter, I would like the parties to confer and provide me with a chronology. It's a little bit confusing when the first program was, what the initiation was, et cetera, so if you could get an agreed chronology together that would be beneficial. Mr Ryan, do you wish to cross-examine?

PN222

MR RYAN: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [11.47AM]

PN223

MR RYAN: Mr McIntyre, it would be safe to say, wouldn't it, that both Mr Greaves and the Alliance have disputed all the way along that there was a conflict of interest in Mr Greaves doing voiceover work and reading the news?
---Yes.

**** PAUL MCINTYRE XXN MR RYAN
PN224

In relation to the guidelines, they're Mr Cameron's guidelines, aren't they?---As director of news and current affairs, they come out of current affairs, yes.

PN225

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What does that mean?

PN226

MR RYAN: I was about to say that.

PN227

They weren't developed by Mr Cameron?---No. They would have been devised by policy, head of policy, Steven Ellwood, in conjunction with John Cameron who would have had the final approval of that policy.

PN228

It's his signature which is at the bottom and title?---Yes.

PN229

Could you explain why, if it's such a concern to news and current affairs that Mr Greaves does voiceover work, there wasn't a directive to the television division not to ask him to do it?---That's because of the editorial independence of news and current affairs. We run what we would like to think is fair, balanced programming without editorial interference. For us to then cross over to another division and say, "By the way, we don't want you to do that," particularly when that program may or may not criticise news and current affairs, that constitutes editorial interference. So we lose our integrity by saying, "You can't do that" with that person. It is for us to make that decision.

PN230

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When did the policy arise again? When was it created?---It was a clarification of the editorial policies so that - to avoid misinterpretation. That came out in October 2004. I'm not sure of the exact - - -

PN231

When was Mr Greaves' role first objected to?---In April 2004. I think it might have been the 6th or the 7th, probably the 6th.

PN232

Had there ever been a complaint under the pre-existing policy about his voiceover work?---Not to my knowledge, but we had different directors of news and current affairs and they interpret things differently.

PN233

How long had Mr Cameron been in this job?---He came in as acting director, I'm not sure if it was April, May 2004, and was appointed July 2004.

PN234

Had any other previous director made any objection to Mr Greaves' voiceover work?---I wasn't aware of any objection from Max Utteridge who was the previous director, and I had only worked briefly under Paul Williams, who was the director - - -

**** PAUL MCINTYRE XXN MR RYAN
PN235

Had Mr Greaves, for some reason, become more or less identifiable as an ABC newsreader in that period?---I've got no idea.

PN236

Yes, go on, Mr Ryan.

PN237

MR RYAN: Mr Greaves gave evidence that the role of the voiceover person in Media Watch is merely to read the words of others or to reads words from a newspaper? Do you accept that?---Yes, I do.

PN238

In spite of the fact you haven't seen Media Watch for sometime?---That's what a voiceover person does.

PN239

In your evidence-in-chief where you talk about problems caused by critique of media, including the ABC, that's not something that Mr Greaves does, is it?
---He's not personally responsible, no, for critiquing. He's the voiceover person.

PN240

He doesn't have any views of his own, doesn't express any views of his own on Media Watch, does he?---Views can be expressed through the voice inflections of a script that is read. They can be. I haven't actually heard Mr Greaves' voice so I wouldn't know on that but that can be.

PN241

Basically answer yes or no. Mr Greaves merely reads the words of others, doesn't he?---He does.

PN242

He doesn't critique, he doesn't make comment, he doesn't lambast, mock, attack other media, does he?---No, not that I'm aware.

PN243

That job is left to the presenter, isn't it?---Yes, it is.

PN244

This year it was Ms Jackson, a well-known notorious journalist - I use notorious - her notoriety as a high profile Australian journalist?---She is high profile, yes.

PN245

In the capacity as what, a journalist, isn't it?---I haven't employed her. I presume so.

PN246

She's not known for her netball skills, is she?---In news and current affairs she works as a journalist. What she works as in Media Watch, what they've defined her role as, presenter, researcher, I presume it's presenter.

**** PAUL MCINTYRE XXN MR RYAN
PN247

When she turns up one night on, say, 4 Corners or the 7.30 Report or ABC News, would you expect the viewer at home to say, when they see Media Watch, "She's no longer a journalist, she's something else"?---I think that they wouldn't draw that. They would be looking at an entirely different perspective. It's a different program.

PN248

The question was, when they see Ms Jackson presenting Media Watch, they would view her as performing the role of a journalist?---I couldn't speak for them, sorry.

PN249

But they wouldn't view her as, as I said, a netballer getting the gig?---I wouldn't know if she plays netball or not.

PN250

Or as a good cook at home or as a good bicycle rider?---They would presume that she's a journalist.

PN251

Thank you. I have no further questions, your Honour.

PN252

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You're excused. Sorry, you weren't quick enough to your feet.

PN253

MR CARUSO: Sorry, that's life. Just one question.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CARUSO [11.53AM]

PN254

MR CARUSO: Mr Greaves, when he does the voiceovers for Media Watch, who has responsibility for his employment in the organisation, do you believe?---News and current affairs.

PN255

You mentioned earlier that you believed that it was not your place to go to the director of television or anyone in television and tell them to stop employing him?---No, it's not. It's breaching the editorial integrity of the program. I mean, for example, that night they may be wanting to criticise ABC news or it may be that we've done some stuff-up on radio news that - one of Mr Greaves colleagues, Ron Deed himself has been involved - would at that point in time he not do the voiceover's response to make the mistake that he's made on air or one of his colleagues?

PN256

You say you have ultimate control in respect to Mr Greaves' work in the ABC?
---Yes, through the chain of command after John Cameron.

**** PAUL MCINTYRE RXN MR CARUSO
PN257

That applies to all other employees in news and current affairs?---It does. All those that are - people - employees, yes.

PN258

That's all, your Honour.

PN259

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr McIntyre, in this matter you're the decision-maker?---Yes, but we have an upward referral point so with voiceovers and the like, where there is any potential conflict that's not clear-cut, I will always upwardly refer. Firstly, I would go to the head of policy, Steven Ellwood, and then on to John Cameron. Steven would say, "Look, it's a little bit muddy"
or - - -

PN260

John Cameron is senior to you?---Very much so. I think he's about two or three pegs up through the chain, maybe three.

PN261

He puts a view to you about this being in conflict and do you independently form your view about whether it is or not or do you accept John Cameron's view?---I'll independently form my view and have a discussion with - I think I've got a pretty good open relationship with Mr Cameron and I could voice my concerns. If he wants to overrule, that's fine, and I would go with him.

PN262

In this matter, did you view the program or any of the programs in which Mr Greaves performed - - -?---I haven't heard one that I was aware of. As I say I don't see the program very much. It's normally training for squash on Monday night and if I know that there's something about New South Wales news, as such, that's going to be on, I'll video it and watch it when I get home.

PN263

Thank you. Anything arising out of my questions?

PN264

MR RYAN: No, your Honour.

PN265

MR CARUSO: No, your Honour.

PN266

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.56PM]

PN267

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want to conclude your submissions on this matter now or after you've done the chronology?

PN268

MR RYAN: I prefer to do it now, your Honour, because I think we can do the chronology - it will be a matter of - - -

PN269

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I should tell you that the way in which matters have been finishing in the last week and a half and given what's to happen in the next week, there's no possibility of my handing this decision down before I go on leave and I won't be back till mid January, so you're looking at the end of January at least. I presume that at least the status quo will be maintained until I'm in a position to consider the matter.

PN270

MR CARUSO: It's somewhat moot because Media Watch doesn't return until February, March.

PN271

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good. There's not likely to be any action in the matter until then then. I was just concerned that my delay could affect people. I just don't see how I could resolve it, get to it in the queue until then.

PN272

MR CARUSO: On that basis, your Honour, I think I would certainly find it easier if I could close after I've done the chronology.

PN273

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think, Mr Ryan, I might overrule you. I think I'll find it easier to listen to you after I've read the chronology, because at the moment I've got some of it out of synch. When do you come back from leave?

PN274

MR RYAN: I think about 16 January. Whatever the Monday is.

PN275

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is. That's when I come back. And you?

PN276

MR CARUSO: Seeing it's my first week back after a long break, I'll definitely be on board around that time, your Honour.

PN277

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We'll go off the record, we'll wait for my dairy to come back and then we'll list it.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.58AM]
<RESUMED [12.02PM]

PN278

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Greaves, are you in Sydney? Yes. I'll stand the matter over until Monday, 23 January at 10 o'clock. The chronology should be agreed between the parties and if I could have it emailed to my chambers by close of business on the Friday beforehand. Thank you.

<ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY 23 JANUARY 2006 [12.03PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

JOHN GREAVES, AFFIRMED PN22
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR RYAN PN22
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CARUSO PN65
EXHIBIT #ABC2 MR CAMERON'S GUIDELINES ATTACHED TO ABC1 PN85
EXHIBIT #ABC3 EMAIL DATED 11/04/2005 PN98
EXHIBIT #ABC4 LETTER DATED 18/04/2005 PN143
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN144
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN166
EXHIBIT #MEAA6 TRANSCRIPT OF MEDIA WATCH PN180
PAUL MCINTYRE, SWORN PN180
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CARUSO PN180
EXHIBIT #ABC5 TWO LETTERS FROM THE ALLIANCE DATED 14/07/2005 PN209
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN222
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CARUSO PN253
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN266