C2005/4647, Transcript of Proceedings [2005] AIRCTrans 2645 (30 December 2005)

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

---

Workplace Relations Act 1996 13634-1

COMMISSIONER ROBERTS

C2005/4647

MEDIA, ENTERTAINMENT AND ARTS ALLIANCE
AND
AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
s.170LW - Application for settlement of dispute (certification of agreement)
(C2005/4647)

SYDNEY

2.15PM, TUESDAY, 06 DECEMBER 2005

Continued from 19/10/2005

PN65

MR M RYAN: I appear for the Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance and with me is MS M JONES from our office and also the affected member
MR S MACDONALD.

PN66

MS J MANSFIELD: Solicitor, I seek your leave to appear for the ABC and I am here with MR RADFORD and MR SUMMERILL of the ABC.

PN67

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Is leave opposed Mr Ryan?

PN68

MR RYAN: Yes, sir, it is most strenuously, Commissioner, we notified the - - -

PN69

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it's not your obligation, first to oppose is the obligation of the solicitor to tell me why they should appear.

PN70

MS MANSFIELD: Thank you, Commissioner. I seek leave under sub-sections (b) and (c) of section 42. Having regard to the subject matter of these proceedings the ABC submits there are special circumstances. Firstly because the alliance of submissions raised some legal issues about the application of certain Full Bench authorities so I seek leave in order to make some submissions to you on those legal questions. Secondly, we'd submit that the proceedings involve an exercise of a power of private arbitration and that you should take that into account, Commissioner, in having regard to the wishes of the ABC to be independently represented.

PN71

And in relation to sub-section (c) it's our submission that the Commission can be satisfied that the ABC can only adequately be represented if leave is granted. The officer who has carriage of this particular matter is on leave at the moment. There are a limited number of other people employed by the ABC who have advocacy experience and in today's circumstances we've got some particular difficulties. The proceedings were adjourned until today to accommodate witness for both sides and all of the ABC HR personnel are at an interstate conference. So there is nobody present who could represent the ABC if leave were declined. Mr Radford and Mr Summerill are certainly here as senior managers who are authorised to instruct me so I don’t appear before you without instructions but we seek leave so that the matter can go forward smoothly today.

PN72

THE COMMISSIONER: I take it Mr Summerill is a witness.

PN73

MS MANSFIELD: Mr Summerill is a witness.

PN74

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. You may now oppose, Mr Ryan.

PN75

MR RYAN: Well, just on the last point I am dumb struck, Commissioner.

PN76

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, don’t be dumb struck you wouldn’t be able to say another word to me would you.

PN77

MR RYAN: Well, I'm just trying to draw breath because both myself and
Ms Jones were before Senior Deputy President Drake this morning, another ABC matter, where the ABC was represented by Mr Luke Caruso, so he is obviously not interstate. Secondly, we informed Blakes on the 18 November that leave would be opposed.

PN78

THE COMMISSIONER: You did.

PN79

MR RYAN: The subject matter of these proceedings - there's no legal questions involved, the facts are not in disrepute. The question to be determined is whether the move of the office from Kempsey from Port Macquarie in relation to
Mr MacDonald's circumstances, make it unreasonable for him to commute that distance. There's nothing special or extraordinary about that. I note that neither the alliance but more importantly the Commission were informed that there would be nobody from the ABCs massive IR department present today in case
Ms Mansfield was denied leave.

PN80

The last occasion this happened was again concerning the ABC and Ms Mansfield where they appeared without an ABC advocate and leave was denied by Commissioner Smith on the sound base that it was contemptuous of the Commission to assume that leave would be granted or that additional pressure would be placed on the Commission to allow leave to be granted because there was no ABC advocate present. Now as I say the basis we oppose it is that
Mr Caruso was sighted in this Commission today, he is an experienced advocate and secondly, the matter before you is quite narrow in its focus, has no dispute over the facts, it raises no legal questions of any note whatsoever.

PN81

Quoting two examples of previous decisions hardly raises it to the need for legal representation to respond to reading the written word of decisions of this Commission previously concerning what is a not uncommon occurrence of relocation of places of work and the impact that has on employees. So we do press most strenuously our objection and say it's without basis in accordance with the privilege granted to legal representatives under the Act to appear. If the Commission pleases.

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Ryan, I note what you said about Commissioner Smith's view in what you allege to be analogous circumstances but if I was to deny leave to appear today what happens?

PN83

MR RYAN: We would obviously seek an alternative hearing date at your earliest convenience, Commissioner.

PN84

THE COMMISSIONER: That's to the advantage of your member?

PN85

MR RYAN: No, but unfortunately it's not our decision. We have - a legal representative has some rights of privilege to appear before this Commission in certain circumstances. We believe those matters haven’t been made out for the grant of legal representative. It's not our problem that the ABC has treated - - -

PN86

THE COMMISSIONER: I think you're running your argument again, aren’t you?

PN87

MR RYAN: Yes, but we would cop it on the chin and say, we will come back at your earliest convenience.

PN88

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course. Yes, well it's also me who has to cop it on the chin and your member. In all the circumstances leave to appear is granted to Ms Mansfield, commence your case please, Mr Ryan.

PN89

MR RYAN: If the Commission pleases. Commissioner, you've received our outline of submissions I think some time ago in accordance with the directions.

PN90

THE COMMISSIONER: I have. Do you wish to have your submissions marked?

PN91

MR RYAN: If I could have that tendered please, Commissioner.

PN92

THE COMMISSIONER: We have no previous exhibits do we?

PN93

MR RYAN: No, Commissioner.

EXHIBIT #MEAA1 WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS ON BEHALF OF THE MEDIA ENTERTAINMENT AND ARTS ALLIANCE

PN94

MR RYAN: Commissioner, I think I can safely assume that this outline has been read by yourself so there is no need for me to go through them.

PN95

THE COMMISSIONER: And it will be again before I make my decision.

PN96

MR RYAN: I handed up to your associate earlier today, Commissioner, a signed copy of Mr MacDonald's witness statement.

PN97

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that's been placed on the file.

PN98

MR RYAN: So having regard to the matters before us, Commissioner, I would seek and call Mr MacDonald to give evidence.

PN99

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, call Mr MacDonald.

PN100

MS MANSFIELD: Commissioner, I should point out that Mr Summerill and
Mr Bradford are in the hearing room.

PN101

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm leaving that question up to Mr Ryan if he objects to the presence of Mr Summerill.

PN102

MR RYAN: I have another objection, thanks, Commissioner, to them both being present.

PN103

THE COMMISSIONER: You do object?

PN104

MR RYAN: I do, yes.

PN105

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Please leave.

<STEVE MACDONALD, SWORN [2.23PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR RYAN [2.24PM]

PN106

MR RYAN: I was wondering if I could hand the witness a copy of his statement please, Commissioner?---Thank you.

PN107

Mr MacDonald, I've just handed you a document. Is that a statement made by yourself in relation to these proceedings?---Yes it is.

PN108

To the best of your knowledge and believe are its contents true and correct?
---They are.

PN109

No further questions, Commissioner.

PN110

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you wish to tender the statement?

PN111

MR RYAN: Yes, please, Commissioner.

EXHIBIT #MEAA2 STATEMENT OF STEVE MACDONALD

PN112

THE COMMISSIONER: Cross-examination?

PN113

MS MANSFIELD: Yes, briefly, thank you, Commissioner.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD [2.24PM]

PN114

MS MANSFIELD: Now Mr MacDonald you said in your statement you lived 15 kilometres from Kempsey?---That's right, yes.

PN115

And prior to the relocation you say it took you 15 minutes to drive to work at the Kempsey station?---Around about, yes.

PN116

And the trip from Kempsey to Port Macquarie that's a trip you would take on the Pacific Highway?---Yes.

PN117

And it's duel carriageway between those towns?---No, not all the way.

PN118

A substantial proportion of is it today?---I would say, no.

PN119

And would proportion would you estimate is duel carriageway?---Well, I've been up and down the road quite a few times but there are segments of it where there is duel carriageway but as a count I'd say it would be probably a third duel carriageway.

**** STEVE MACDONALD XXN MS MANSFIELD
PN120

And the distance from Kempsey to Port Macquarie?---The distance from Kempsey to Port Macquarie are 50 kilometres.

PN121

And for a large part of the way the speed limit on the highway is 110 kilometres?
---No.

PN122

It is for a substantial proportion of the way?---No. No part of the highway is 110 kilometres, it's 100 kilometres.

PN123

100 kilometres and in your statement you say that travel takes an hour each way, is that correct?---Leaving from home, I leave at 4.30 and I get there at 5.30.

PN124

But it doesn’t take 45 minutes to drive 50 kilometres?---No I'm saying leaving from home and I'm west of Kempsey, so that's 15 minutes and then the 45 minutes down the road, down the highway.

PN125

To drive 50 kilometres?---I am driving through Kempsey, through sets of traffic lights and then out of Kempsey and some of the zones are 50 kilometres, 80 kilometres until it reaches 100 kilometres and then back into zones once you get into Port Macquarie as well. So some total of the count that's been done numerous times, one hour.

PN126

And you've been aware of the proposal to relocate the station for many years now?---I have been an employee with the ABC now for 26 years and during that time most of its been at the Port Macquarie - at the Kempsey station.

PN127

But you became aware some four years ago now that there would be a relocation?---I did.

PN128

And when you raised your concerns about the impact on you, you were invited to put those in writing weren’t you?---I think what happened and I just need to go into a little bit of detail here. When the ABC was moving to Port Macquarie and it was on and off for a fair bit of time. They hadn’t figure on a site. They were looking for location. It wasn’t definite at any time when that would all be decided. The process was to invite the staff to put in suggestions for what the building should have in it. Whether there should be a shower in the gents toilet, whether there should be a kitchen with other facilities. All sorts of different suggestions and I happily added suggestions to that.

**** STEVE MACDONALD XXN MS MANSFIELD
PN129

But you also put in writing concerns about the impact of the move on yourself?---I did that as well and I handed over to the head of local radio, Michael Mason, the manager of New South Wales radio, Roger Summerill and the head of the rural department at that time, Shane Mahoney.

PN130

And over the years since the decision was made to relocate each one of those people has had some discussions with you?---No.

PN131

Well, you've had discussions with Mr Mahoney?---Not - limited discussions with Shane Mahoney, the head of rural at the time over the phone. On an occasion when both Michael Mason, the head of local radio, arrived at Kempsey and was down in Port Macquarie, it was a case of, I asked him to just listen to what I had to say about it and the answer at the end of the conversation, well it wasn't really a conversation because he didn’t add anything, was I suppose you've had it good up until now.

PN132

So the answer to the question is, yes, you did have a discussion with each of those people about this?---I didn’t have - a discussion with Roger Summerill didn’t exist. When they were having a meal at a restaurant at Port Macquarie and I arrived the question Roger Summerill asked me was, how long did it take you to get here, that was his first question.

PN133

And you've had a number of discussions with Mr Radford about relocation?---I have.

PN134

Since his appointment?---Yes in his position as acting head of rural I have had discussion with Leigh Radford.

PN135

And there's been some extensive correspondence between the Alliance and the ABC about the various proposals that you've raised over time?---Mm.

PN136

And it's been explained to you why the ABC considers the various you've proposed are not operationally acceptable to it?---In writing I was asked by head of rural at the time, Shane Mahoney, to put some options down. All those options got knocked back, everyone of them. The ABC didn’t want to entertain any ideas of offering any sort of assistance in any way. It was always an ask on my - for me to provide options and on each occasion when it happened they were knocked back.

**** STEVE MACDONALD XXN MS MANSFIELD
PN137

And the reasons for knocking it back were explained to you every time weren't they?---They were explained but I don’t think that they were explained to the extent that I was satisfied and hence I pursued it further.

PN138

You didn’t agree with the reasons that they both put to you?---I had some reasons put forward to me and I didn't agree with them.

PN139

Yes, thank you. No further questions.

PN140

THE COMMISSIONER: Re-examination?

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [2.30PM]

PN141

MR RYAN: The discussion between yourself and also through the Alliance, was any movement made by the ABC to ameli ate your conditions?---Every time it was a case of just report to work and do what you did when you were in Kempsey.

PN142

No further questions, Commissioner.

PN143

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr MacDonald, just a question of fact from me. You've given evidence that Kempsey is 50 kilometres from Port Macquarie?
---Yes.

PN144

Somewhere in your statement it says your trip is 65 kilometres each way?---That's right.

PN145

So is the City of Kempsey is 50 kilometres from the City of Port Macquarie and you live 15 kilometres outside Kempsey?---That's right to the west of Kempsey.

PN146

Thank you very much. You may step down?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.31 PM]

PN147

MR RYAN: We have no further evidence, Commissioner.

PN148

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Your evidence, Ms Mansfield.

PN149

MS MANSFIELD: I call Mr Summerill. I should ask that the ABCs outline of submissions be marked as an exhibit.

PN150

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, we will do that now.

EXHIBIT #ABC1 ABC'S WRITTEN OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS
<ROGER BRUCE SUMMERILL, SWORN [2.32 PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS MANSFIELD

PN151

MS MANSFIELD: Mr Summerill, did you make a statement - an affidavit in these proceedings on the 16 November this year?---I did.

PN152

And do you say that the contents of that affidavit are true and correct?---Yes.

PN153

I seek to tender that.

PN154

THE COMMISSIONER: Does Mr Summerill have the affidavit before him?
---Yes I do.

PN155

Sorry I interrupted.

PN156

MS MANSFIELD: I seek to tender the affidavit, Commissioner.

EXHIBIT #ABC2 AFFIDAVIT OF ROGER SUMMERILL

PN157

MS MANSFIELD: I don’t have any other questions.

PN158

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, cross-examination?

PN159

MR RYAN: Yes, thank you, Commissioner.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [2.33PM]

PN160

MR RYAN: Mr Summerill, I just want to take you to paragraph 8 of your affidavit, the last one. Were you living in Shell Harbour when you took up the position with the ABC?---Yes I was.

PN161

So you were well aware of the distance to travel from Shell Harbour to the ABC when you took up that position?---Yes.

PN162

Previously when you were living in Nowra and working in Wollongong, when you were took up the position at Wollongong were you working in Nowra?---I was.

PN163

So again you were well aware of the distance?---Yes.

PN164

Yes. And in relation to the last sentence, what do you base that on?---Just my own experience and the experience of people that I know that live in regional areas. I mean, one expects if living in regional areas often to shop, to medical services and for people to work, they often have to travel.

**** ROGER BRUCE SUMMERILL XXN MR RYAN
PN165

And in the case of Mr MacDonald where he'd working in Kempsey for some time, he would start at the studio in the morning wouldn’t he?---I beg your pardon?

PN166

He start at the Kempsey studio in the morning?---Yes.

PN167

And then for the rest of the day often that would consist of driving long distances to interview people?---I would think at times it would. Not every day but some times it would.

PN168

So additional travel both ways to Port Macquarie added to the normal distance travelled in relation to doing your job interviewing people, is no difference you believe to your experience?---No not really.

PN169

Except for the fact that you consciously made those decision to work at Ultimo and Wollongong when you knew the distance to be travelled when you accepted the job?---Mm.

PN170

That's a big difference in the situation for Mr MacDonald isn’t it?---I don’t see your point, Mr Ryan.

PN171

Well, I'll put it simply.

PN172

THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps if you can seek to clarify the cross reference.

PN173

MR RYAN: I'll put it as simply as I can. You've acknowledge that you were already living in Shell Harbour when you accepted the job at the ABC based in Ultimo?---Yes.

PN174

So you knew when you decided to take the job that you would be required to compute daily that distance?---Yes.

PN175

Mr MacDonald has been at Kempsey for many years and when he accepted the position he lived and worked in the same town. Can you see the difference between Mr MacDonald's situation and yours where you freely chose to live a distance, Mr MacDonald didn't?---Yes I do.

PN176

No further questions, Commissioner.

PN177

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Any re-examination?

**** ROGER BRUCE SUMMERILL XXN MR RYAN
PN178

MS MANSFIELD: No. Nothing in re-examination.

PN179

THE COMMISSIONER: You may step down Mr Summerill.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.35PM]

PN180

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you wish to call Mr Radford?

PN181

MS MANSFIELD: Yes, thank you, Commissioner.

PN182

THE COMMISSIONER: Well this is a pleasant change the way evidence normally drags out in cases before me. Before the witness is sworn, can I just make this note to you, I'll need to know at some time whether those distance figures are disputed.

PN183

MS MANSFIELD: They're not.

PN184

THE COMMISSIONER: The 50 kilometres and the 65 kilometres.

PN185

MS MANSFIELD: They're not disputed.

PN186

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you.

<LEIGH RADFORD, SWORN [2.37PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS MANSFIELD

PN187

MS MANSFIELD: Mr Radford, you made a statement in these proceedings on the 17 November?---Yes that's correct.

PN188

Do you have a copy of that with you?---I do.

PN189

Do you swear that the contents of that statement are true and correct?---I do.

PN190

I seek to tender that statement.

EXHIBIT #ABC3 STATEMENT OF LEIGH RADFORD

PN191

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have further questions?

PN192

MS MANSFIELD: No, Commissioner.

PN193

THE COMMISSIONER: Cross-examination?

PN194

MR RYAN: Yes, thank you, Commissioner.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [2.37PM]

PN195

MR RYAN: Sir, if I could ask you to refer to paragraph 6 of your statement?
---Yes.

PN196

And that's basically a requirement for the rural reporters to commence work at the studio isn’t it every day?---Correct.

PN197

So they can fit into the morning programme?---That is correct.

PN198

And prior to the move from Kempsey to Port Macquarie Mr MacDonald would go to the Kempsey studio to do that interaction preparation for the morning show?
---Yes.

PN199

Can I take you to paragraph 10 of your statement, you say:

PN200

I have been informed by ABC human resources.

PN201

How were you informed and why did they have a need to inform you of anything?---I don’t know why - I am not sure that they had a need to inform me but I was informed. I didn’t ask for the advice but I was given it, Mr Ryan.

**** LEIGH RADFORD XXN MR RYAN
PN202

It just landed on your desk one day?---Well in a manner of speaking I suppose it did, yes.

PN203

So do you know any of the people in Queensland personally?---No I do not.

PN204

New South Wales?---I don’t know any of these individuals personally.

PN205

Right. And then at paragraph 11 you say:

PN206

In my view the commute between Kempsey and Port Macquarie is not unreasonable.

PN207

Do you stand by that?---I do.

PN208

All right. Are you aware of the distances Mr MacDonald travels on top of the daily commute to and from Kempsey to Port Macquarie?---Yes I am.

PN209

When you couple his working kilometres to put it another way as well his commuting kilometres, do you think that's unreasonable?---No I don’t think it is, Mr Ryan. I mean, for instance in my own case I've been away from my home and young family for over 100 days this year in different parts of Australia often travelling at very early times to catch flights to go to places like I have today and I consider it to be part of the job.

PN210

Yes and would you consider that Mr MacDonald thought it was part of his job after working at Kempsey for 18 years that he'd be working at Kempsey?---That is perhaps not unreasonable. I don’t dispute that. You asked me about whether I think the distance is unreasonable. I don’t think the distance is unreasonable.

PN211

Because you're the national manager of ABC world?---Yes.

PN212

And you would expect the national manager to travel nationally?---You would.

PN213

And hence there is a logical reason I suspect why you've been away from your family for 100 days this year in your role?---That's right but the same parallel can be drawn with rural reporters because in the normal course of their duties they are expected to traverse the country side doing their job, seeking interviews face to face with people and depending on the size of the regions where they work they can be away from home for days at a time sometimes longer and travel vast distances. And I have done so myself in the course of my career over the past 17 years.

**** LEIGH RADFORD XXN MR RYAN
PN214

But you wouldn’t expect to be reasonable on top of that working distances travelled then be forced to commute to the office in a regional setting over a 100 kilometres a day on top of the vastness as you said they travel to do their normal work of interviewing people?---If I was in Mr MacDonald's situation I would certainly have some misgivings about it. I don’t dispute that for a moment.

PN215

No further questions, Commissioner.

PN216

THE COMMISSIONER: Re-examination?

PN217

MS MANSFIELD: Yes, just one.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD [2.41PM]

PN218

MS MANSFIELD: Mr Ryan asked you some questions about paragraph 10. Was that information provided to you by the ABC human resources in the course of your preparing this statement?---It was.

PN219

Good, thank you.

PN220

THE COMMISSIONER: You may step down?---Thank you, Commissioner.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.41PM]

PN221

THE COMMISSIONER: Well in short order we've arrived at final submissions.

PN222

MR RYAN: I am just wondering if I could seek a short 10 minute adjournment, Commissioner.

PN223

THE COMMISSIONER: Of course.

PN224

MR RYAN: Just to take on board the evidence.

PN225

THE COMMISSIONER: I can offer you something better. It might be better it might be worse and I'm completely agnostic about this. I am happy to receive final submissions in writing given this case has dragged on some time already if that's the course the parties wish to follow. If you wish to address me today feel free or I'll give you 10 minutes to think about it.

PN226

MR RYAN: Thank you, Commissioner.

<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.42PM]
<RESUMED [2.55PM]

PN227

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Ryan?

PN228

MR RYAN: Well I think we will take up your suggestion that we do written submissions, thank you, Commissioner.

PN229

THE COMMISSIONER: It was always my preference as an advocate because you get the transcript.

PN230

MR RYAN: Yes. I'm often in two minds myself but I think on this occasion transcript would be useful.

PN231

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN232

MS MANSFIELD: I have no objection to that.

PN233

THE COMMISSIONER: No objection. Do we wish to set a timetable for - or we must set a timetable for the filing of submissions. We will just go off the record for a moment.

OFF THE RECORD

PN234

THE COMMISSIONER: The parties have decided to take up the option of making final submissions in this matter in writing and the agreed timetable is that Mr Ryan will file his final submissions and serve them on the other party no later than close of business on 6 January 2006. Ms Mansfield will file her submissions and serve them on the other side no later than close of business on 20 January 2006 and Mr Ryan will have a final right of reply to be filed and served on the other party no later than close of business on 27 January 2006. My decision will at that time be reserved and the parties will be advised in due course. Is there anything further?

PN235

MR RYAN: No thank you, Commissioner.

PN236

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you for being so good.

<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [2.59PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #MEAA1 WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS ON BEHALF OF THE MEDIA ENTERTAINMENT AND ARTS ALLIANCE PN93
STEVE MACDONALD, SWORN PN105
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR RYAN PN105
EXHIBIT #MEAA2 STATEMENT OF STEVE MACDONALD PN111
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD PN113
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN140
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN146
EXHIBIT #ABC1 ABC'S WRITTEN OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS PN150
ROGER BRUCE SUMMERILL, SWORN PN150
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS MANSFIELD PN150
EXHIBIT #ABC2 AFFIDAVIT OF ROGER SUMMERILL PN156
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN159
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN179
LEIGH RADFORD, SWORN PN186
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS MANSFIELD PN186
EXHIBIT #ABC3 STATEMENT OF LEIGH RADFORD PN190
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN194
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD PN217
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN220